In Tallinn, there is a graveyard for Soviet-era statues behind the Estonian History Museum. After the fall of the USSR, Estonians didn’t want statues of Lenin peering down at them, so they tore them down. Some were destroyed, some were probably kept as mementos, and some ended up in the statue graveyard. There are similar spaces full of old Communist statues and busts in Russia, Hungary, and Lithuania.
Should other countries follow their example? Public spaces should surely be open for everyone in society, so what sort of message is sent by monuments venerating slavers and racists? At the same time, some argue we would be “erasing” history by removing controversial statues and street names. Some call instead for plaques and “context markers” to accompany problematic public monuments, to explain why they are controversial.
What about cases where people strongly disagree? Winston Churchill, for example, is venerated as a hero by most Brits for helping the UK resist the Nazi menace. However, critics argue his policies contributed to the 1943 Bengal famine, when up to 3 million people died from starvation. The prospect of street battles between people protecting statues and those who want to topple them is concerning, particularly in the midst of a global pandemic.
How should Europe confront its past? Should controversial statues and street names be removed? Should plaques be added to put them into historical context? How should we decide which public monuments should go? And what happens if there is disagreement? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
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BLM is an imported USA issue that has no relevance in Europe.
Not true. Europeans were the slave-traders, a lot of fortune is built on free people being taken from Africa and brought to the US as slaves: shared riches call for shared responsibility….
Firstly, please do not spread fake news. Slave trade was organised within Africa by African tribes and Arab slave traders. Europeans did not go “hunting” for slaves in Africa. There is enough historical evidence of this. Secondly, the killing of Floyd happened in the US in a situation and circumstance which has NOTHING to do with Europe. Thirdly, BLM is a racist initiative in its very narrative. ALL LIVES MATTER, you have no right to even suggest or think one race is worth more than another, or should be treated any better than another.
who owned the ships to bring them over the ocean once again?
I definitely don’t think one race is worth more than another, the thing is that protests are for the race that is constantly overlooked. So in order to claim that all lives matter you have to believe that black lives matter… I’ll explain it to you as I explain it to kids: when I say “save the Amazonian rainforest” I don’t mean cut all other trees, just right now it is the Amazonian forest that needs attention.
I agree on the second point for the specific event that triggered the protests, but it was the last drop, not an isolated event and unfortunately we can’t say there is no racism in Europe… Probably not as systemic, not as blatant as in the US but it exists…
who sold the slaves once again to the traders? Yes, black tribes sold them . Again, BLM is an imported USA issue that has no relevance in Europe.
I believe in personal responsibility, none of the people who traded slaves is alive, so the European today are not guilty for it. Yes they societies took advantage s and they should pay something back. But there are countries like Germany that become economic prosper without slavery
What should be removed are the useless criminals who are denying the history.
It’s a discussion that ought to start. However, it should be taken into account that eg 14th century people had 14th century ideas and beliefs, not 21st century ones. Let’s find out about mistakes made and strive for a more humane world in the future. The past can’t be changed anyhow
Europe has no colonial past. SOME countries in Europe have colonial past, and the majority of those have nothing to confront, because they no longer have any colonies. It’s all part of history now.
Some European countries were colonies themselves at one time or the other and some European countries (like the one i am from), have a colonial past. However, this colonial past can still have an effect on the present. BUT these national discussions, these national sensitivities should be confronted on a national level, not on a European level.
Еxactly. Europe’s history is a lot more complex than these revisionists think, and putting all of Europe into one category of “Slavers and white supremacists” is plain simply wrong.
Europe”s history is checkered and has huge regional variations. But… I think it is the ‘duty’ of every country to have an adult, national, dialogue, especially about the past you / we as a nation do not like to talk about at parties. When I was in secondary school the colonial war the Dutch waged in Indonesia was called euphemistically ‘police actions’, calling it what it was, a colonial war where the Dutch committed horrible atrocities, was (And for some people still is) too painful. I am almost sure that in the history of ‘your’ nation there are also episodes you’d rather not talk about. As a nation we have the obligation to come to terms with a past filled with racism, anti-Semitism and all other horrible episodes. So our we and our children will not make the same mistakes.
Of course, every nation has it’s wrong-doings and shameful moments. They need to be remembered and studied. Saying that is one thing, saying “All our history is shameful and wrong and we have to punish ourselves forever for it” is idiotic.
…But I do not hear a lot of voices saying that a nation’s history should dumped at the graveyard of human history… I do hear voices telling us that our nation’s history still has an effect on them, today. I think we should listen and not discard these voices.
You are talking about the BLM movement, some people from that movement are saying it, and as they have proven with their actions, they are perfectly fine with destroying European history and culture that has no relation to colonialism and slavery whatsoever.
to quote Martin Luther King, “Riot is the language of the unheard”.
The history of all nations and previous events are having an effect on every single one of us today. It’s how history works. If all countries in Europe have to apologize for colonialism and slavery regardless if they had them, then so have to Turkey, Saudi Arabia, India, China and a bunch of other contries who had a booming slave trade in the past. We’d have to all apologize to eachother for things neither we, nor our parents or grandparents did, to people who never suffered from these things. It’s ridiculous, unjust and humiliating, and it changes absolutely nothing.
maybe we don’t need to apologize, but just be better than ‘our’ forefathers. But as long as we, as a society, accept that minorities are judged by their origin and not by their future, we will not be much better than our ancestors.
The fact we are having this civilized conversation, the fact that the former colonial powers in Europe were the ones that spearheaded the introduction of human rights worldwide, the fact they voluntarily abandoned their colonies and left the local people to govern themselves are all proof that people in the formar colonial powers of Europe today are better than their ancestors. You don’t need to humiliate yourselves in order to dance to the tune of modern day political extremists.
maybe we shouldn’t judge a movement by it’s most extreme manifestations. For every Malcolm X there is a Martin Luther King.
If people would stop judging historic events and people using today’s standards then this debate would be a serious one; however what we see is emotion, populism and victim-hood trying to rewrite or erase history. We have to learn from history and move forward. When i see this movement decapitating statues, burning books, censuring movies and tv series it brings back other kind of historical events which we, apparently, aren’t learning from.
If we want to solve racism, xenophobia and other “phobias”, we should start actually learning and accept our past and heritage and build a better future. right now what i see is nothing like that. I do not see progress i see tribalism, narcissism and a lot of populism.
What the world needs to go back 50 years of liberty is to have an economic crises, populism, fear and leaders that know how to manipulate people emotions. What has happened before will happen again. What has been done before will be done again.
«“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
em “1984”, de George Orwell.
Removing statues, unfortunately, doesn’t erase History – however, some people really want it not to be erased and probably wish we still lived in those times. Nevertheless, it is not correct that multicultural societies have their taxpayers money used for homages to racists, slave-traders, and white supremacists. If you wanna learn history, go to a museum, read a book, and get your facts straight. Especially if you clap your hands when post-soviet countries take down Stalin and Lenin statues.
You clearly know nothing of history, if you think European countries are the only ones that had colonization and slavery…
you clearly know nothing of me if you think I said that. Nevertheless, European countries (the ones which did it, not the ones which did not) started the intercontinental slave market indeed. It was my country in fact, Portugal.
Sorry to inform you intercontitnental slave trade existed long before that, long even before the existence of most modern day European countries. It has existed ever since Antquity not only in Europe, but in Africa (Ancient Egypt and Nubia), the Arabian Peninsula, India, Indonesia, China, Mongolia and many other regions. In fact slavery still exists to this day in some parts of the Islamic world, yet I don’t see anyone protesting that.
you don’t see where? In Europe? In Europe we protest for our faults of course, which there are many. There is still neo-colonialism to this day made by European corporations, and plenty of Africans still targeted of racism in the same countries that fucked their countries up. Get your facts straight.
You know nothing of our history, you just proved that.
You are the one who’s cherry-picking facts, mate. Cheers, I’ve nothing more to say to you.
wasnt refeing to you but to Pedro.
your answer was probably for Pedro, I agree with you, but his not cherry-picking, he doesnt have the ability for that, he was only given the cherries that others wanted him to have, he doesnt have the ability to look for cherries.
To some are heroes, and to some are criminals.
There’s no absolute good or bad.
They colonized,at the same time sent civilizations.
History is not something can be erased, so people can learn from the past.
New colonization is happening somewhere in the world ,people should focus more on the current world.
Well, let us start by demanding huge reparations from Turkey for enslaving millions of people in the Balkans, Poland and Hungary. LOL.
It starts whit statues, then books, what about burning them or something?
We don’t burn books anymore we don’t read them. Read Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
No more black history month no more B E T
imagine being a jew and having a Hitler statue in your city because he also did important things like building highways etc. would that be ok?
Yes. Who fucking cares, it is a statue.
@Alessandro Using your dumb motivation, why not take it down, ” it’s just a statue “🙂
I personally wouldn’t care that much about the statue, indeed. What is frightening to me are the people who feel so threatened by it they want to take it down. I see some kind of irrational and psychotic voodoo rite in the action of expiating something that does not exist destroying or censoring an object.
However, there are no statues of Hitler, and for good reason. If someone can’t make the difference between Hitler, Churchill or Thomas Jefferson, then they shouldn’t have the right or authority to judge who deserves a statue and who doesn’t.
would you like a statue of mussolini?
what about statues of leopold?
Leopold was a reprehensible human being both by his time’s standards and by today’s standards. However it should be up to the historians to give an objective analysis of his actions and it should be up to the citizens of Belgium to decide what to do with his statues. Letting an angry mob vandalize them certainly isn’t the democratic and civilized way to deal with them.
the good reason there are no statues of Hitler is that Hitler lost dude. You think there would be any statue of Jefferson had the USA lost the war of independence to the Brits?
i have not heard any historian say it was good by the standars of the day. It horrific what happend in congo, belgium has tried to bury it for years, ever since it happend from the shame. Objectivly Evil people from the past (hitler, stalin, mao, leopold and so on) dont deserve statues. There are history books to remember them by, but not statues, statues generally are to gloryfie.
I “wouldn’t like” a statue of Mussolini, there are statues and other representations of Mussolini in Italy and I don’t want them taken down. I don’t feel threatened by them, because I am not a child and I am not insane. They tell me a story of dark times I never lived and offer me an insight of what people back then used to believe. They allow me to meditate on how fluctuating human morality is and remind me to be skeptical of moralists and absolutists.
what are these representations in italy?
It’s not only because Hitler lost. Many dictators, tyrants and monarchs in history have lost wars miserably, yet there are statues and artistic representations of them that no one minds. There are no statues of Hitler because he was a sociopathic monster, both by today’s moral standars, and by the moral standards 80 years ago. He is one of the very few figures in history that are almost unanimously despised and frowned upon.
most cities in Italy have monuments built in that period with references to Mussolini or the fascist party in general. It’s not a big deal.
are there statues of mussolini?
but should it?
As History, for sure…
Confrontation does not require vandalism.
true, unfortunately, vandalism arises from desperation. Had the conversation started earlier, a lot of confrontation probably would have been avoided….
Acknowledge the WHOLE history! Warts and all.
PS: Nationalism teaches you to take pride in shit you haven’t done & hate people you’ve never met
Countries which benefited from their colonial past should pay back all with the interest and pay compensations to individuals for the forced labour
There are no such individuals alive today. Not even one of the protesters, not even their parents, were used for forced labour.
So what? The consequences of the colonialism have negatively impacted every generation since then. Poverty is inherited by descendants if someone was lucky not to be killed or forced labor to death and had kids. Similarly, no reparation to the victims of the II World Word from the East were provided.
apologize for sth perpetrated in 15th century, eg? How far back should this go?
Few countries are rich Today thanks to what they have done. Why they should not pay back for it? It could be for example a global fund or a programme funding health and education needs in Africa.
And I thought that the colonialism ended only in XX century.
but African tribes enslaved each other and Europeans each other too (eg Greeks vs Scythians 2500 years ago). I think that if you don’t set a (n arbitrary) time limit, calculating who is the loser and who is the oppressor will be impossible.
o how do you work it out when it was one tribe who conquered another and sold their captives to the white men or Arabs for slaves? BTW slavery is still legal and happening in some North African countries today https://www.buzzfeednews.com/…/slavery-nigeria-libya
How One Man Was Sold Into Libya’s Modern-Day Slave Trade
in my view it is not difficult to check how much profit was made by few European colonial empires only in XX century. You do not need to go much deeper. It would be enough if at least this is repaid. It should be a moral obligation for these few countries to initiate the relevant global action instead of putting Africa more and more on debt.
like every european and american country already do?
Funding UNICEF and many many other projects and institutions that go to mainly Africa and help villages with health and education?
I am not sure I agree with you Michal but I like how sensitive you are! Many thanks
I know very well what is provided currently as this is my field of expertise. It is much below the needs and what should be paid if we want to compensate at least last 100 years of colonialism. The riche ones have even difficulties to meet the ODA target which is set at 0,7% of GNI.
and coloniséd countries should pay for the roads the hospitals the schools…. Which have been built…
should (all) victims of ethnic cleansing also be compensated?
They are paying all the time by providing cheap labour. The are not even owners of the capital in their own countries. Also to be checked who is using these hospitals, etc. Support not always is reaching those in need. There is a lot to be done.
nobody prevents them to develop their economy. Look what Asian coloniséd countries have done including India… AFRICAis responsible for its bad economy.. Don t treat them like children never responsible..
hundreds of thousands, even millions of migrants live with social benefits, paid by European citizens. How much more compensation is enough for you.
Sounds to me Michal that you only consider Europeans should be held accountable for past behaviour, and only for so called “colonialism”. Seems a very narrow view of history.
not only. But the question is about the colonialism. Happy to read what is your understanding. To sum up, my understanding is that several rich western societies, but not only them, have built their wealth on the forced labour and use of resources of colonialised ones. This is one of the main reasons of inequalities between countries and societies around the world as well as between the citizens within them. In my view to be able to establish a fully-fledged democracy and free market you need to have equal rights and also socio-economic justice, which is not there as starting point of some of us is much better as through generations we have built our wealth in that way. There is no free and fair competitiveness at national and international level, if this issue is not solved. It is in our interest to solve it. Otherwise locally social tensions will increase and globally we will face more and more challenges as the great migration.
Generally speaking I think that it is always a fault of the rich and strong one. If there is no demand, there is no supply. We have inequalities in our societies with their roots in the colonialism. People feel the consequences still Today fighting every day to survive, while a small group is having fun. It is not enough to say that we have equal rights Today (if they are equal), we need to have a system with a socio-economic justice being part of it.
@Nikos many of them contribute to our societies. The migration is not without the reason. One of them is the colonialism which only ended in XX century.
I am not saying that the colonialism is the only reason and explanation of Africa’s problems. But in my view it is one of the most important ones. It is not only about its economic impact. It is also for example about the local conflicts created by the colonial empires when they were leaving their colonies in order to maintain their influence.
you yourself have mentioned supply and demand, without the demand there is no supply. So basically, today’s rich took advantage of a demand to supply that. Also colonialism ended in Africa in the 60s that’s about 60 years ago, you’d have thought in that time they would have got their act together, after all the European colonialists did leave a good infrastructure behind them. Europeans have also been pumping massive amounts of aid into their ex colonies on a yearly basis. If you actually look at the problem closely the factors that are driving migration are 3. 1 religious warfare, of which the continual tit for tat killings between Muslims and Christians is a prime example. 2 Rampant corruption in their governments and public services. 3 mismanagement of the farming land. When there were white farmers managing the land in Nigeria it was known as the breadbasket of Africa, and produced enough food to feed the whole of Africa, now they find it hard to feed themselves. There is a 4th factor that draws migrants too. Instagram and Facebook. On this media they see people with what seems to them amazing lifestyles, they own a house, a car etc and some believe that simply by coming to Europe they will have the same.
Yes, but then you do realize if we gonna look this way then. Russia should pay back for the Baltic states, Return Kaliningrad to Germany. China should pay back for Taiwan…Throughout history there were 1000 invasions to every country. Turkish should pay back for Europe trying to invade it. That would be insane if we look this way.
Jews were compensated for the Holocaust why not the victims of colonisation. We can check what happened 100 years ago.
Every country in Europe was colonised before colonising, and even after and up till not very long ago. Where do you want to start the confrontation?!
There’s nothing to confront… It’s History… It’s there, in the past, and will not stop being in the past… History has the power of teaching us about things you did good and bad, and what to avoid to NOT get in the same rabbit holes. Why this need to “confront” or apologize about things that happened centuries ago. So tired of this PC s$!t.
we cannot change the past, it will not stop being the past, but the LEAST we can do is to apologise
Apologize for what? Something that other people did 200 years ago? My country and my people ourselves were slaves of the Ottomans, along with all of the Balkans. We have nothing to apologize for!
nope, no apologies needed.
I didn’t do it, my parents didn’t do it, neither my great-grandfathers.
Our modern societies have moved away from those actions already, and it wasn’t just yesterday, slavery abolition happened already more than 100 years ago.
Societies have moved on, don’t be stuck in the past and don’t drag others with you.
it is easy to move on, when it is not you to live the consequences…
Agreed, but no one is living with the consequences of European colonialism today. However, there are still some people who are victims of real slavery and human trafficing today. I am all for ending this, lining up the perpetrators of these crimes, and shooting them. Yet BLM care more about tearing down statues of great historical figures than about actual victims of these crimes who ARE living with their consequences today.
well we can say I live with other consequences and still I’m not demanding reparation for a previous dictatorial government or even spanish inquisiton or spanish rule…
Don’t be a baby asking for new toys and doing a fit because you don’t have them.
don’t change discussion and don’t make it personal: the historical consequences I live with (and was not apologised either) are not those of slavery. So my reasons in this discussion are those of human decency.
Back to the subject: neither you nor me lived under conditions of systemic racism (I hope here in Europe it is not as direct and blatant as in US), so either your or my claim to any reparation would be just another expression of our privilege
Still waiting to see exactly what privilege is that lol.
Can’t you see that’s just a simple tactic to render any argument against race-related issues invalid? Identity politics at its finest.
I’m not changing the subject, you just can’t call “double standards” on me, if I see no need to reparations for something that has been diluted by many decades of prosperity for all, and you still say Im wrong, then why can’t I claim for reparations for things that also affected my history and livelihood?
Just slavery needs reparations?
Where are the reparations for WW2 damage to Greece done by Germany?
Where are the reparations between rival ethnic groups in Africa that keep enslaving each other?
Why should I pay any reparation to someone that can even be more wealthy than I am in my country?
We’ve got nothing to apologize for. Are you responsible for your 5th great grandfather’s actions? No.
okay, I answer you: I agree there are many cases where passes have not made repairs, and no, it’s not okay, they should do it. I’m not going to get into the discussion about the entices groups in Africa, because in many cases Europeans had something to do with it. Don’t you think? :)
Your pays: Are conditions of naturalization in Spain easier for safardi Jews with certain last names just because it’s a certain kind of repair done by the Inquisition (or should I say Catholic kings? :)). If it’s the only group they hurt? No, I don’t. If they should make repairs to other groups? Yes unfortunately they don’t and for many reasons. One of them: Have you never thought because you can’t ask the indigenous inhabitants of Spanish (the island) what do you think of Hispanity Day? Well you should :)
with the dictatorship is more complicated simply because the pays are not ready for the discussions: the day they finally took the dictator of the Valley of the fallen the national TV had no problems putting friends and family of franco doing the greeting ′′ up ′′ and singing. And the Reds? the Reds have paid, by far… so if Spain should make repairs to its citizens… Probably. but for this you need a national dialogue…
I won’t talk about US, because I don’t live there, so my knowledge would be based only on news and literature. And as I have already said in this discussion I don’t think racism is as systemic here as it is in US. When it comes to Europe ask your black or middle eastern friends whether they were never dismissed just because of their appearance, frisked or stopped in the supermarkets, whether their kids never came home crying that somebody does not want to sit next to them just because of the colour of their skin. We have never lived through those experiences and we will never even understand them. But what we can is to have some empathy.
altho I did understand what you said, I’m not spanish, I’m portuguese, and sorry, I’ll keep saying that we do not have to pay any reparations for damage caused by slavery 100+ years ago.
In the moment your society can produce rich people, professors and access to all kinds of jobs and healthcare to anyone especially minorities, I can safely say our debts are paid.
hehe, soz, mixed it up due to the similarities in history (though I thought your name didn’t sound Spanish). In fact, I don’t even know why I have got involved in this discussion, my point on the top of the thread was not reparation, my point was to have empathy and guts to say “sorry for what we had done in the past” and combat racism today. Reparation is a very complicated subject and in many cases it is even impossible. It is an issue to be discussed in US.
faor enough, thank you for the civil debate!
I really do not think an apology is needed from our side and neither US has to give “reparations” after measures like Afirmative Action and wellfare centered on ethnic minorities.
Not all countries in Europe had collonies.
Historic revisionism is typical of some dictatorial regimes. We can’t judge someone who lived centuries ago with today’s mindset.
o tempora o mores!!!
Why would you even confront something that does not exist anymore. It is not rational.
It is not all the European countries that have a Colonial past.
There is no one ‘European’ way to confront the colonial past of it’s member states. Some countries were colonizers, some were colonized themselves. The way national figures* are viewed can differ between countries. I can understand that Philip II, King of Spain is remembered somewhat differently in the Low Countries than in Spain. So please keep these discussions on a national level, I cannot judge the sensitivities in other member-states, as people from other states might not have a clear view on the happy or painful episodes of ‘our’ national past.
*=having said that, i think we all can agree that European history is littered by the most horrible people who’s actions can only be condemned by everyone with a working heart and brain.
Telling France to leave her colonies?
we left.. Africa is now coloniséd by China… Africa is a burden to France
ok and What about caribe and pacific area? The so called TOM or collectivitées d’outre-mer?
+ St Pierre et Miquelon….+ Iles Kerguelen….
Not quite France controls the Uranium from Niger. Regarding small territories better to keep them. If they are left alone they coul be a safe heavens for mafia
good colonialist’s answers! We do that for their wellbeing
Keep them, they are nice spots for winter vacation. What people what in good governance. There are some countries that wanted to be independent and now are ruled by criminals. So what you prefer a distant colonial power that offer some protection and some rule if law, or a local dictatorship.
a local power that offers protection, rules, law and the full rights. Even if at the beginning it will be difficult.
Since the EU is rewriting European history- an EU political clarification is needed first. No national nor supranational expert(s) should possess a sole mandate to decide on how.
Who are these experts? Friends of Europe, the DE, or the EU are not- but remain politically biased and disqualified. They generally represent the political view of the EU- not even Europe, definitely not the former USSR, Russia, the US, Asia, Africa, or the UN.
By welcoming all- they all will demand a say, their way, of their past and their culture to be considered eventually. If one foresees problems- don’t welcome them all. Be careful!
A Tribal community, a tribal sized headache. A Nation-state, a national size headache. A Supranational concept, a super headache. A future global state a global disaster!
Please ask the professionals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography
Just remove the statues to a museum or park and use them for education purpose. Don’t destroy or vandalize them.
How should Europe confront its past?
Here is the beginning of confrontation. Truth is always the forerunner.
This endless search to try and rob Europe and the West of ‘compensation’ has to start with the ‘fact’ that slave venders and marketeers were culpability for the trade they taught us in our search for exploitation. The sellers were tribal Chiefs who owned their people at birth. They had too many to use for their own advantage and were constantly seeking a wider market. So, the first lesson is, tribal Africans were born to slavery. They were always chattel to their Chief. Freedom did not exist for them in that culture. The more his people bred, the richer he became. And the white men of Europe fell upon the new business plan as they ventured further into the continent of Africa to acquire wealth for their Royal or superior masters back home.
Read all about it. Perhaps we should take the next plane out to the African Chiefdoms and tear down a few of their Universities and great statue symbols of their past for introducing us to such a foul business. I wonder how many statues of worship they managed to erect. And I wonder how much of their earned income from European slave traders they managed to invest in education and medical care for their owned tribe members.
Then move on to the next level which has to be what has been achieved by those tribal chiefs for their ensuing tribal legacy? And how those screaming protesters can return home, with their brand new education and ideas on how to help their people grow into a prosperous economy, functioning in a modern world of their dreams, taking their own nations poor to new heights of comfort and joy.
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/focus/20151025/africas-role-slavery
Here is a good place to start. Always best to get to the nitty gritty at the offset.
It’s all about whom we want to celebrate as a society. If it’s not someone we can show our kids as someone to look up to, we should put it out of the streets and squares and in to a museum or a junk pile.
That’s just dumb, every… single… statue.. about a man/women will have negative thinks related to it, but the original purpose to build that statue was always about the positive that person brought to the place!
Doesn’t Churchill deserve a statue? He does! Was he a perfect man by his time’s standards? He wasn’t, but the statue was built to remember his role in WW2.
To remove statues based on modern values is to deny those people the shared value of their life and the teachings they can pass to future generations.
Learn with history, dont erase it!
That’s a very white argument you make, thank you for your contribution that disregards a significant part of the population.
Without Churchill the UK woul not be so diverse, and people would not protested in a Nazi ruled Britain
Of course not. History is one.. Churchill said “Nations which forgot their past have no future..”
If government starts doing that then they will promote cultural and racial wars..
Let’s all agree that the entire universal history is just an array of colonialism, occupation, aggression, advantage taking, scams and atrocities that harmed some and benefitted others. What for some might be a reason to celebrate, for others might be a reason for sorrow. Unfortunately we can’t go forward if we keep getting back to revisioning history, just to adjust it so that every aspect that might offend someone to be blended, faded or cancelled, otherwise we’ll get stuck in a spiral that will lead us to a point where no party will have real arguments, but subjective views. Just the way we all are now, all the people in the past had their good or bad sides and their leaders were no exception. The fact that certain statues or monuments of such leaders might bother someone’s feelings it’s not enough to reduce to zero the recognition of their influence in history, otherwise when we’ll get it done with the statues we’ll have to deal with castles, war constructions, monuments, art expressions, churches or even schools or universities. In fact, with everything that gives today the colorful shape of the European (yet not only) landscape. Nevertheless, if the majority of a community considers that it no longer identifies with the determined symbol (the Lenin statues case) it should have it moved (if possible) or thoroughly explained (if impossible), but according to the rules of democracy.
On the other hand, getting to know and admitting the mistakes of our ancestors gives us the possibility to evolve, to improve and to avoid repeating them, but asking for forgiveness (in any way) for a sin not personally committed is not the propper solution to this issue. This will never bury any hatchet.
There is no BLM movement.
In History, past is past. We can’t go back in time and change it. What we can do now is change the present and prepare a better future.
It should be proud that it bought culture and civilization to all corners of the world and imposed itself as a pinacle of human society that never was and never will be outdone by anyone on this planet.
Well Europe was very advanced and because of that conquered the world. But the people who colonized were neither educated if kind. For spices Dutch killed all the people from an island and then brought slave to work. The people colonised by Europe are not complaining about the European civilisation but lack of it.
Dumb
It’s history.. The past. Leaen from it and look at the future.. Please stop all this nonsense. So fed up with it.
First of all we should differentiate between emotions and wisdom. You have to take a look why there is so much anger about about monuments and than you have to take a step back and think how we make the future between people positive. There is no point of erasing traces of history. One should learn from it and be critical.
Keep History. For Heaven’s sake!
take the staues from the streets to museums dont erase history, teach it.
Why Europe? Handful of countries surely… Hungary, Poland, Croatia, Finland and many more had no colonies … no need for the complete continent to share the guilt of few countries that were proto-globalist thieves and murderers …
There is no European country who’s history isn’t stained by xenophobia, racism or anti-Semitism. Maybe, as a continent or as a family of nations we should look also at these part of our own or our shared histories, ensuring these things stay in the past, where they belong.
And about Poland not being a colonial power.. Look up “Colonisation attempts by Poland” on Wikipedia ;)
I guess one learns every day. Did not know about Poland but xenophobia and anti-semitism are not the same as colonialism. The latter is enslavement by an administration to formalise systematic plundering of foreign places. True that many Central European countries still have not solved property returns to prosecuted owners (mostly Jewish), but in the UK or Belgium or France we built whole palaces and cities from the others’ wealth and misery.
did you even read what you cite yourself? Yeah german vassals in Courland buying a small unpopulated island makes Poland a “colonial power” sure…
Also the definition of “attempts” means it still didn’t happen, no what ifs or buts acceptable about it
To me, racism, anti-semitism, xenophobia and colonialism are all fruits from the same poisonous tree. They all assume that our fellow human being is ‘lesser’ in one way or the other. So maybe instead of measuring who’s ancestors were the most horrible, we should all face our shared and our ‘own’ history to ensure that the shared future we have is free from exclusion, racism, discrimination or subordination of our fellow humans. A few millennia ago someone said: “who is free of guilt may cast the first stone”.
Sometimes irony doesn’t come across well in places like this … ;)
my ancestors didn’t enslave anyone and we owe nothing to anyone. Neither they or I have anything to apologise for
it comes to micro economy of hate vs macro economy of exploitation. I am not talking about views and ideas… but the fact that we have rich places that grew wealthy out of colonial policies and international violence.
Neither did my ancestors, they, as maybe your ancestors too, were making a meagre living on, in my case, the mud of our northern provinces. So on a personal level, there is nothing to apologise for. But… your nation ánd my nation have dark episodes in our history, we shouldn’t take this personal, but as a society we should face these episodes and learn from them.
I agree, there were dark episodes such as mongol, ottoman, russian and german invasions, so we as a society learned from enduring constant invasions, one of which had wiped us off the map for 125 years that we must prioritise the safety and integrity of our own people first, give them a choice who they want to share their country with and what values to believe in. The people have made their choice, and it’s against globalism and PC culture. I’m half polish half ukrainian and such a historical background largely applies to both countries, Ukraine for even longer being under the yoke of other countries and cultures which were forced on them, and they surely aren’t having it anymore in any form. My ancestors were minor nobles and cossacks, both most likely had fought foreign invaders, resisting getting colonised themselves
Agreed, and as a member of a society which enriched itself until 80 years ago through exploitation of its colonies, i am quite aware of this part of our history. And ‘thankfully’ as time is creating more distance between this era and today, I notice that discussions about these unfortunate events become ever more nuanced (at least over here).
But the descendants of former enslaved, grandchildren of people who emigrated to Europe in the sixties and seventies and people who found refuge on our continent more recently are still confronted with subtle or less subtle forms of discrimination.. I think that these forms of disadvantaging these people fuels their sense of being left out. And maybe without the racism and discrimination of today, the discussion about colonialism would be a more academic one.
I am not offended by the statues of King Philip II (who’s idea of a nice time was chopping off heads of Dutchmen), because when i am in Spain today i do not feel discriminated or left out in any way. But I can imagine that when someone is left out today, he or she is more sensitive when it comes to the past.
@Wladyslaw But when you say “prioritise the safety and integrity of our own people first”, I wonder who are ‘our own people’? People living in our country? People who share a common ancestry? Or can it also include people who want to live in our country and contribute to society, regardless of their origin or religion?
In Eastern Europe the xenophobia was between us European. Portugal,Spain,Holland,Britain,France, Belgium, Germany should pay for their mess.
Talking openly about the war crimes, genocide, pillage with all the detail.
It’s the past. We don’t blame the Germans.
Talk about what happened using accurate sources and explain to both perpetrators and victims why colonial practices -or the culture that promoted or accepted them- were wrong.
like all the History of the World since … ever was “wrong” to modern concepts of human rights. Not really! What you all need is to learn history and understand that you cannot erase or modify the past. We can only learn from the past and leave it alone where it belongs – the past, as history and learning. No, the past is not “wrong”. Is the past, another ages, other consciousness, other approaches to life, different concepts form today’s.
and you only need to cross the Mediterranean Sea to find modern day slaves in many countries in Africa! Today! And no white slave masters!! look up Slavery in contemporary Africa on wikipedia
It shouldn’t
Self-hate is a mental disease.
Like greece and the Rome Empire? Plz….
Maybe BLM should clean its own room first. They have a pandemic of violence and fatherless homes in their communities. It really hard to take them seriously.
Perhaps we can revisit whom we commemorate in public spaces and put the statues of the most controversial persons in museums, where their historical deeds wouldn’t be erased (for better or worse) but would instead be given proper contextualization so that latter generations can learn about and from them.
Before tearing down a Lincoln statue, you may want to hear the words of Frederick Douglas 1876 leading Abolitionist to slavery has to say: If you you don’t listen to the people who fought and bled for freedom SHAME ON YOU!!! Learn HISTORY Don’t ASSUME
https://youtu.be/J3j7iYTmq6Q
What about the reverse, when slaves were taken from south Europe to North Africa? Our from Hispânia to Rome? Our from the east Europe to the ottoman impire? Our from east Europe to the Mongol impire? The past is the past and we have to live with all the good and the bad things that happened. Many African natives were enslavedes by other Africans… Now it’s different. All the humanity learned from this mistakes. Imagine all the gold, precious metals and other things like this that the Romans took from all the west Europe… It’s the past. We have to live for the future…
we haven’t learned in 2000yrs now we’ll do in the near future
dude nobody said ignore one part because they asked you to confront another. The past is the past indeed but we should be facing it and we should be learning from it.
Most countries and cultures have profound histories of racism and slavery, however it is the western countries that first fought against it .
Only by remembering our past can we perhaps avoid the dark chapters recurring. Removing statues and changing road names cause us to forget about our past and create a breeding ground for the atrocities to recur. If you want to know your present, you must know your past.
I sure wouldn’t want to live on Adolf Hitler Street.
It’s not erasing history. History is in books and musea.
But maby replace them to history lane or park.
But then Hitler and co should be added too ;)
You cant delete history and taking them down or not, is not going to change anything. Ans as we can see from most of the colonized world today they are in civil war or very poor and they should take the oportunity that is given to them to live safely and better in Europe and if they dont want they must go back to their countries.
The History isn’t rewritable.
Kicking statues is a kind of voodoo religion. It doesn’t affect me.
Black, brown, yellow and white people can use a representation of us in the form of puppets and insert needles, and can twist the puppet. I don’t care.
This is some kind of stupid, primitive religion.
In my lifetime i’ve seen the Chinese red guards destroy China’s pre- communist past and more recently we’ve all seen Isis destroy ancient sites in Iraq like Palmyra. How are these vandals currently destroying statues any different?.
How should Europe confront its past?
In the UK today we wake up to hear the ‘Rhodes,’ in Oxford college, statue is going to be removed from that college, built with his money. And the bursaries from that same Rhodes foundation is to continue to educate the pupils that call for him to be destroyed. Surely any decent thinking ‘woke’ student would not touch a slave owners philanthropic benevolence would they? How would their fragile conscience deal with that? And on top of it, the white men that have managed to invest the funds from the legacy are all racists and deserve to suffer for their ancestry.
Now, let’s go one step further and ask how ‘black lives matter’ are dealing with their ancestry and the utter cruelty of the enslavement their Chiefs doled out to their suffering people. As well as, above all, continue to do so in Africa today. Why are they not doing the right thing and going back to that land of origin to help their fellow men to come up to the standards they claim to enjoy today? A wonderful paid for education being one of them.
Additionally, take a look at the movie, all black actors, all black story, named, ‘The Colour Purple.’ A masterpiece of writing and production. Take a look at black treatment of black people. And how well off they were in comparison to poor white trash of the time.
A nice little learning curve of history there. Now what punishment to they feel should be placed on the heads of the culture and social community they lived through at that time, right there in black America. These very close relatives dishing out that horror of deprivation and prejudice to their own grandmothers and mothers.
Here is a clip. Great acting. Funny, no word is spoken of its existence, when the demand of notoriety for black people is so heavily fought for in that wonderland called Hollywood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_NKQUWfOyE
If Rhodes and others are removed. Then the majority population must close the functioning legacy of the men who bestowed them. And find a more deserving group to hand such a glorious charity to use. That will ease the deep misery those who suffer under him endure presently. Stop policing them and just walk away. Leave them all to clean up their own mess and the dead bodies in the community for their own to care for. That way we may all get some peace.
In support of Catherin’s comment, it is high time that a handbrake is applied to this pandemic of irrationality and expose the cowardice & fear prevailing under most current public leaders & complicit experts. Let’s ask:
Where & who are all these past & recent Rhodes Scholars who benefited?
To show some gratitude, decency would demand that all recipients give their learned input!
Why has it become too unpopular & too dangerous or risky to defend historic pioneers & their spirits- specifically of this man- a distant personal benefactor of so many since 1902? His Trust intended to promote unity amongst English-speaking nations. Had everyone forgotten?
If it is a matter of compliance to today’s irrationalities, they should at least be honest & spirited enough and return 100% their consummated benefit to the Rhodes Trust to benefit others, who are more deserving and brave.
Here is the list of the class of 2020:
https://www.rhodeshouse.ox.ac.uk/news-events/latest-news/news/2019/december/class-of-2020-rhodes-scholars-announced/
https://www.rhodeshouse.ox.ac.uk/scholarships/the-rhodes-scholarship/
To add- many successful Africans are only (allowed) to blossom when leaving Africa to become recognized & successful. An example is an economist and thinker Zambian born Dr. Dambisa Moyo. To be heard in Head to Head with UK’s (rude) Mehdi Hasan on why liberal democracy is under siege and requires a radical overhaul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io4OF7ux00Q&t=1109s
Shame on all these complicit experts, political & spineless cowards cum wannabe leaders!
Lets be honest here…… :)))
The western European people think that people of Eastern Europe as second class citizens. This will be like that for the next 40 years maybe. Since Eastern Europe had communism thanks to the Soviet Union which was a victor in the second World War they got half of Europe as a prize due to their victory of fascist Germany.
I do not think that Europe can overcome its past. There will be always prejudice about each and every European country. The Germans will stay fascist or Nazi even though they lost the war and they claim that they have changed. In reality the Germans have not changed, neither the German speaking countries. Deep down inside they will stay like that. They will believe that they are the dominant race in Europe and maybe in the world.
There will always be racism. You cannot delete this. Although genetics have proven that the white European has weaker genes than the Africans or Asians. The white can be melted down very easily when cross breading with other races.
How should Europe confront its past?
In order to fully discuss this issue, it must be debated for many months, openly and without hiding the reality of what that past was and how it has moved us into the present. And what discussing it is trying to move us toward. Two very important questions regarding this move and where it is intended to take us is.
A) Are the majority happy where we are, as a result of the historical past we are discussing?
B) If, yes, why and what are we happy with?
C) If, no, the past cannot be changed, but those not happy with what we have become as a result of it, must accept they live in a democracy and be prepared to take a knee to those in the majority…. Or, find another pied-à-terre.
D) So, this means we have to accept a full Swiss Direct Democracy. As it is now obvious without such a system, the US der Ausländer, presently illegally taking over our nation, as if you look on youtube it is obvious most European countries are facing turmoil, regarding this mass migration. Which can only bring us the kind of ‘slavery’ they claim they want tax payers to compensate for in order to alleviate their misery.
This situation, agitated by simple minded individuals from the US, calling themselves, BLM, has only arisen as a result of ‘our population’ being ignored for many decades by leaders who disregard the wishes of majority voters. Those who did not want, nor, consent to mass migration. In fact, in the UK they have rejected this policy for more than 70 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2VyKtfByXk
Had each of our European countries had the Swiss system of Direct Democracy, not one European State would be faced by screaming mobs today, demanding we tear down our culture and adopt theirs….. Which is?
Liberia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Liberia
Haiti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti
Sub Saharan Africa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa
The first move to confront our past has to be to ask how we see our future. As this is where you want to take the European people during this confrontation that matters. Otherwise confrontation with our history is pointless. You can do nothing about the past. That train has long left the station. It’s the next train we want to hear about, as, it is the only way we will ever know if we want to ride on it. Which brings it right back to Swiss Direct Democracy. European leaders cannot be trusted to look after the best interests of their constituents as I don’t think many of the indigenous will see the Coudenhove-Kalergy plan a train they want to climb on.
Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi
Austrian Politician
Description
Description Richard Nikolaus Eijiro, Count of Coudenhove-Kalergi was an Austrian-Japanese politician, philosopher and Count of Coudenhove-Kalergi. A pioneer of European integration, he served as the founding president of the Paneuropean Union for 49 years. Wikipedia
Born: 16 November 1894, Tokyo, Japan
Died: 27 July 1972, Schruns, Austria
Awards: Charlemagne Prize, Sonning Prize, Legion of Honour, Order of the Sacred Treasure, Konrad Adenauer Prize
Spouse: Alexandra Gräfin von Tiele-Winkler (m. 1952–1968), Ida Roland (m. 1915–1951)
Education: University of Vienna (1917), Theresianum (1908–1913), Theresianum
Books
Keep History. For Heaven’s sake!
how should europe fight corruption inside EP?
The past is the past. The now is the now. People have become too prissy and sensitive. The more you pander to them the more they will demand. I don’t even like some public figures in the present. Shall I demand they be removed from the planet?
Shame is a weakness
Past present future
Is yesterday happen tomorrow
It will never ends
That’s the question
And you got my answer
Laughs in Polish
Payback time, you barbaric occupiers.
They are removing everything including those who ended and abolished slavery. They are not against slavery they want western civilization erased.
By letting or remain in the past? Generally a good place for such stuff
Fun fact, Ghenghis Khan the most despised man in Western Europe and in China is national hero in Mongolia.
Naturally. Teaching History so that they can understand. Erasing History is a very bad thing to do.
Statues are not history. But if all colonial or racist statues should be removed, so should those of authoritarians like all kings, queens, communists and fascists!
WITH TRUTH, COMPENSATION AND APOLOGIES!
@ Jay
No compensation or apologies. Until black people accept their role in the debacle and join in with the apologies and compensation.
There are a very large group of black people with a lot of money and power. Many of them remain in the slave trade today. Not to mention ‘white slavery’ was just as vast and continues today just as much as it did in the past. The Irish are a small percentage of them.
You want some truth, then don’t discriminate or be racist, look at those statistics and absorb the impact on poor white people and their suffering.
Here is a short list to start the discussion on why we don’t hear of their philanthropy.
https://www.google.com/search?q=rich+black+billionaires&oq=rich+black+billionaires&aqs=chrome..69i57.9129j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Finally:
While some seem convinced the EU nations are trapped in a political merry go round, suffering from chimerism & stagnation, others believe in Greek mythology and in the power of consort Europa- who will create an EU version of a harmonized & enlightened Europe. Modern mystics are employed to end all serfdom, inequalities, exploitations, wars, and shower all with caring governments & endless growth.
Since this racist BLM is in vogue, parroted and used so liberally by many “Gutmenschen”- without much thought- it is time to reflect!
Those who ignore or missed the many historic facts what impact the
European missionary pioneers had on Africa & globally- are kindly advised
to get informed. As stated before, the world was differently perceived 100- 2000 years ago, therefore, we cannot judge, only describe, and accept these events as history, learn and let them be. Like it or not!
Missionaries: A European perspective:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christianity/Protestant-missions-1500-1950
Missionaries: A African perspective:
https://www.globalblackhistory.com/2012/10/role-of-missionaries-in-colonization-of-africans.html#:~:text=The%20Role%20of%20Missionaries%20In%20African%20Society,teaching%20to%20subdue%20the%20Africans.
These brave & well-meaning missionaries of yesteryear were followed by tough adventurers, discoverers, explorers, scientists & exploiters. Not a crime then & not now. Some kind of law, order & disorder always prevailed.
After WWII the modern CoE & EU supranational Suzerain started with its Human Rights Chapter- replacing Church & Bible with a Bible of UN/E human rights. This was followed by political treaties to create a framework of legalities, comparative advantages to forge its modern empire.
Similar to the once tough & less sophisticated pioneers of explorers, exploiters, hard-working men & women, building their outposts in the wild past.
Q: Why are so many good people surprised by what is happening today in EU Slumberland- be it London, Stuttgart, the UK, Germany, or France?
“All welcome to Mutti Europe”! Who can resist?
Who is still brave enough to become a policeman, a teacher, a tradesman, a nurse, or a sweeper? The EU is transformed into a paradise for lawyers, politicians & bureaucrats- past honored trades are outsourced to China, or crude labor imported from 3rd worlds.
https://www.diepresse.com/5828862/randalierer-plundern-geschafte-in-stuttgarter-innenstadt
Monetary compensations, self-flagellations, subjugations, and endless apologies serve no purpose and only feeds the ever-growing number of opportunists, beggars, defeatists & fraudsters- grows disrespect and undermines law & order!