The coronavirus pandemic could push half a billion people into poverty. The United Nations is warning of the potential for famine of “biblical proportions”. Profiteering and price gouging are rife, and market-based public health systems seem to have been woefully unprepared for the scale of the crisis.
Two of the central arguments in favour of what is sometimes labelled (usually by its critics) “neoliberal globalisation” or “global capitalism” are that free market reforms have lifted over a billion people out of poverty since 1990, and that capitalism has helped to feed the world and greatly reduced the number of deaths by famine. However, could the COVID-19 crisis (and the ongoing climate crisis) challenge that argument?
What do our readers think? We had a comment come in from Gheorghita arguing that, on balance, global capitalism has done more harm than good. Is she right?
To get a response, we put Gheorghita’s comment to Raj Patel, academic, film-maker, and best-selling author of books including The Value of Nothing: How to Reshape Market Society and Redefine Democracy and A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things: A Guide to Capitalism, Nature, and the Future of the Planet. What would he say?
I think you’re right, Gheorghita. And I think that we need to just be clear about what that ‘global capitalism’ is. If you’re thinking capitalism is where people go to the market to exchange goods for money, that’s not capitalism. People have been doing that for millennia, from the souks and bazaars along the silk road, to trading posts, people have been meeting and exchanging money forever.
But there’s something particular about capitalism that requires us to be alienated from the world around us, from nature, from one another, and from our work. And when that happens, when the driving force is about creating and exploiting new frontiers, and turning the rest of the natural world as we understand it into money, then you start destroying forests, you start crowding wildlife together, you start creating the conditions for zoonotic disease – which we’re living through at the moment – you start creating a world which is filled with the possibilities of massive destruction.
And some people say: ‘This is the anthropocene era, human beings are just bad’. But this isn’t the anthropocene. This is an era of capitalism. If you look at the major problems that the world is suffering at the moment, whether it is the sixth extinction or climate change, you will find the fingerprints not of humanity but of a capitalist system… We don’t have to do away with exchange, I think exchange is wonderful. We don’t have to do away with cash, I think exchange and having money and having a limited amount of stuff that’s yours, that’s fine. But I think we need very much to transform the paradigm that humans are above the web of life and we can exploit it, because that, it seems to me, is precisely the cardinal sin of capitalism.
What about the argument that capitalism has massively improved material wealth and living standards for huge numbers of people? Or that it has driven innovation in technology and research to the betterment of all of us?
Right now, it feels to more and more of us like we’re hitting the bottom. And, in fact, the worst is still to come in terms of climate change. COVID is just a blip; when we’re looking at the deaths associated with climate change, it’s far greater and the road ahead is going to be far harder. Recognising that capitalism has made that is going to make it easier for us to imagine a world after capitalism.
For another perspective, we also spoke to Otto Brøns-Petersen, Director of Analysis at the Centre for Political Studies (CEPOS), a free-market think-tank in Denmark. What would he say?
I would completely disagree. I think we tend to overlook the wonderful development thanks to capitalism, especially if we look at poverty in the world. We’re seeing an unprecedented fall in world poverty because of globalisation and because of market reforms, for instance in China and in India. So, I think there’s no doubt that capitalism, on balance, has provided a much, much higher standard of living and a much higher sustainable population than we would otherwise have.
Finally, we put the same comment to Donnie Maclurcan, Executive Director of the Post Growth Institute, an international not-for-profit organisation exploring “viable ideas for a fair and regenerative, full circle economy beyond capitalism”. What would he say?
Has capitalism done more harm than good? Is it sustainably lifting billions of people out of poverty? Or is it driving us toward destruction? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
197 comments Post a commentcomment
I don’t even feel the need to debate this
I think Capitalism has done more good than Harm
Without Capitalism
I think we all cannot survive in the whole Nation as a whole
Capitalism without welfare is something monstrous. If you don’t have a strong state to regulate the economy, your population is going to suffer. Pure capitalism is not a good ideology and same goes for socialism. Capitalism is acceptable when the rich pay their fair share, when there is welfare state, a strong middle class, economic rights and when the state regulates the market principles. The idea about the Invisible Hand of the Market that regulates everything is an example of wishful thinking. So for me the best system is social democracy. This is neither capitalism neither socialism. Social Democracy in Economics and National Liberalism in society. That’s a good combination.
Not really (Capitalism without welfare is something monstrous) if you have freedom to make small organizations to help the most vulnerable.
What has fone more harm than good is globalism, which you are pushing.
This what we have is no more capitalism! It’s a pump! This is oligarchism, protectionism, nepotism, neofeudalism, neoliberalism, elite and politicians criminalism, generationism, fashistoid communism, populism, manipulation, mafia governments, capturing the states and the societies and many – many more. Oximorons!? Just seemingly!
Nothing more is here legal and everyone on a higher level it’s a servant and a pander. To often by the voters and the people too!
Well, let’s see how the life is in non-capitalist countries – North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba…I think that they have much more poverty. No, the comunism and socialism didn’t work and never will…
The world isn’t black or white and neither should be countries. Capitalism is great in some things but it can be very bad when you only have that mindset in a country. Look at the US: healthcare at the level of a third world country.
In Europe you got countries which apply some capitalist ideas with some good socialism ideas, like a free universal healthcare for every citizen.
The healthcare isn’t free in Europe, you have to pay taxes for that. US healthcare isn’t at all like on third world country, just, it is not available to who has no insurance
tell me a country that, then, as free health care… or any other thing. Please indulge me.
free is a misnomer. Countries with Universal healthcare are many, with a wide range of how good they are. The USA isn’t one of them. They do spend a great amount of their GDP on healthcare though, if I’m not wrong.
There’s maybe 20 nations that could be said to have true universal healthcare ie/ covering 100% of the population.
I just find this “you pay taxes so it’s not free” thing to be so primary.
It is said to be free because you don’t directly pay to access it. You pay to a common box depending on your income and then are allowed, without further payments, to use the services/goods.
I usually follow on to ask if those primaries use the roads. As they are so sensitive to issue they should not use them.
We are in the midst of a shortage of vital medical supplies and flour, a basic foodstuff. Eight years ago they said we must sacrifice to save our country. We sacrificed, now we have to sacrifice even more. We are paying for benefits we will likely never see. The efforts we make to better ourselves are sabotaged. I’m not very impressed by this system we’ve inherited to say the least. Even less so by our terrible leaders.
“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerated the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power.”
Franklin D. Roosevelt
…well guess that in the end a bit of socialism won’t hurt to save the day because capitalistic things have really gone out of track and have messed up the world.
FDR was a social Democrat not a socialist.
That’s not the issue.
the 1% have rotted good capitalism, their greed and dystopic view of the future led to the realization of roosevelt’s speech that is exactly were we are today. Reagan’s and Clinton’s policies paved the way for the mess we’re in today.
All this lockdown bs is fishy af
It has made Europe one of the richest, most prosperous and desired places to live in all of human history. You tell me.
1%?
That was the work of welfare state.
Where does this welfare come from mate?
Capitalism is a very vague term, but, nevertheless, a well regulated capitalism does far more good than harm. You just take example from the states that applied a well regulated form of capitalism as the European ones. Most of their citizens live a good life, have a better health, education and a longer life span.
you mean USA?
although my exemplification was general I didn’t exclude USA and, although the US seem less regulated they also applied certain norms, maybe not unitary, and even there it’s hard to speak about a “raw” capitalism. Anyway, everything can be improved.
Redo that question with Socialism…
Wowww, I completely agree with Raj Patell! exchanging goods is literally nothing new, but we are exploiting our planet and the people that live on it. this system has to change, we cant go on like this
Serena, absolutely. You can have a market without it needing to be capitalist.
unfortunately I don’t see a viable alternative to capitalism at this very moment, but the least we can do is limit its negative sides! lets have a look at the Scandinavian countries which have very strong welfare states, thriving economies and are leaders in environmental innovation and measures. We need to protect people from the exploitativeness of rampant capitalism, we need to give them a safety net – now more than ever! Corona is showing once and for all that we cant treat our hospitals like factories that have to work at maximum efficiency – its showing that everyone and I mean EVERYONE needs affordable or free healthcare and that we need living wages, and that the gig economy isn’t sustainable… we need to change our systems! And we need to protect our planet – who cares about GDP when the world is literally and figuratively burning?! I urge our leaders to take the warning sign of the Coronacrisis seriously and to make the decsions that are necessary, even if they are difficult!
Cara you’re absolutely right about the need for a viable alternative. We’re working on one here, that builds on the best of capitalism, but leaves its worst aspects behind – a post-capitalist market system based on where existing trends are taking our global economy: http://howoenarth.us.
Yes the Scandinavian countries have adopted a good model of socialist capitalism. This is the idea and not an organized crime syndicate capitalism like in eastern Europe.
Capitalism, like any other system, has done good and bad. What works best, for me, is a mixed system, with a strong public sector in strategic industries, firm regulators and free market for the rest.
All Economic systems are capitalistic….
Dinosaur system
Not if we get down from our high horses ..
The problem is China. The problem is Socialism in the EU.
Lol is funny how, when you ask that, people cry “AnD sOciAliSm?1?1?” implying that only thos two systems exists and not considering that socialsm has been applied in single countries (moreover opposed by all the other capitalist countries in the world)
It’s NOT capitalism per se that led us to this mess but 1) the European Union, a supranational entity that regulates every little aspects of our lives but is inadequate when a big shock come in like the 2008 financial crisis, the destruction of Greece 2015, migrants crisis few yrs later and now thi pandemic. We don’t need to waste funds on this entity (essentially a currency based on German interests and a tax heaven aka the Netherlands which drain money from all the EU, is this the great European solidarity? You have to be naive or dumb to believe that fairytale).
Other problem is American govt which paved the way for the speculative financial capitalism we are in today that led the greatest democracy in the world (so they believe) to a country led by oligarchs, corporations and the 1%..just follow the great projects the bill and melinda gates foundation, Google and apple have for us poor ordinary people.
This pandemic maybe was not created on purpose BUT something is fishy: since when in history few thousands deaths caused a complete lockdown of states ,freezing the economy,put on hold civil liberties and the constitutions? NEVER
People who failed to do something in their lives are blaming political regime, whatever one they have. Now it became popular to criticise capitalism. There is no any shape of economy where one can have something easily. There are poor in Sweden and there are rich in Venezuela. There are more rich in capitalism though.
Definitively! In the 80-ties we had an allocation of 250 g butter per month per person. We were sooo healthy and lean! /sarc
I would like to join the debate please !!!
Capitalism took over Eastern Europe in 1989, but it brought nothing, bur organized crime to Eastern Europe. Not to mention that most of the Politicians from those countries became very wealthy during these years of transition from Socialism to Capitalism.
Lets face it. Western Europeans will not or never recognize Eastern Europe as a rightful partner due to the 45 years of Communism thanks to Soviet Russia. The reason why there was communism in Eastern Europe is because after the USSR defeated Fascist Germany they had the right to choose as victors prosperous land in Europe.
Even now Eastern Europeans are second class citizens in the EU. If Hitler did not rose to power this divide would never have happened.
European capitalism is sustained by favoritism… poor people create wealth which ends up in rich peoples pockets ..poor remain poor for generations rich get richer every generation
I am for capitalism. But now there is a financialization of the economy. The money doesnt exist and there is no profit. This is making the control of the market by the corporations, who are more and more rich and can be bailout by the money that the central banks are printing more and more. We are serfs of the Gleb like in Feudalism.
I am not opposed to capitalism, but with some limitations. It is an illusion to think the market can solve all problems. We need a mixed system, and the states need some public companies in strategic industries to regulate the economy. I am completely opposed to private monopolies, like in the airport sector in Portugal, where one single company controls all international airports. This is not capitalism, and it needs to change.
Capitalism is the best sistem
I am glad i live on a continent where, in most countries, the sharpest edges are taken off the capitalist system. I think the Rhinelandic (German, Dutch) and Scandinavian systems are quite successful. BUT, I think ‘we’ should always think what we will leave for ‘the market’ and which public(!) services(!), we deem too important (health insurance, public transport, public housing?) to let ‘the market’ take care of this…
Capitalism is the most efficient system to create wealth.. The only thing to improve is to ensure equality of chance… If competition creates losers… Is it a problem?
we can not be all on the first place. And it’s ok. Still this winner takes it all situation we see now must be mitigated.
yes but in France we redistribute more than 50%of GDP… We are in a semi communist system
govs must maintain a balancing act between socialist measures and advancing the “free market”.maintain a fair playing field. Where is that balance point that remains to be discussed…. :).
two remarks:
– 50 percent of GDP is re-distributed, yes, but what do you get in return?
– have you ever compared the tax burden of someone in the French middle-class with the tax burden of someone in a comparable situation in the US, including the Federal, State and local taxes?
Its the worst system we have, exept everything else we have tried
The difference between Capitalism that there is hope for you to choose your destiny and what you own. In Communism you have no hope or chance to own your own business or choose. Politicians are rich and the rest is poor. The funny thing is that many leftist trying to push being poor on them selfs.
Darwinian selection and technological progress vdetermines inequality. It is unavoidable, but by state redistribution the chances of people to decent life can be increased.
Capitalism is a liberal economic system that abolished and took the place of conservative feudalism. In capitalism anyone can enter the middle class or to become rich because unlike feudalism, capitalism has no interest of where you are born. It created economic growth and wealth. The problem of capitalism is that it doesn’t contain social element. This is the only mistake liberals made. That’s why socialists exist. Nowadays what we criticize is not capitalism. It’s neoliberal corporatism which kills the market economy by creating monopoly and killing the loyal competition between the people.
Conslusion: We need capitalism but we also need welfare state made by the wealth capitalism produces. We need a strong state that participates in the market and that insures loyal competition and worker’s rights. Therefore we need Liberal Social Demoracy.
something like the Chinese model?
No, China is a neoliberal country since 1978. It’s political and economic system is very close to fascism.
I am only making the question as to how will the capital feed the state ? as we see taxation doesn’t work , should n’t the capital be owned by the state ?
If we took the BIS, IMF and central banks out of private hands we could magically print money ourselves to cover that.
all gov must do is make a balancing act between socialist measure and capitalism also maintaining a balance inside the “free market”.
bravo simple as that ! so we are not doing it because … there is no will I suppose
you had up until you tagged the Liberal part on, how about Conservative social capitalism
China is a dictatorship!!!
yes and unfortunately their economic policies are working and they are conquering the world ..
Conservative capitalism is like socialist capitlaism – an oxymoron. Capitalism and democracy are always liberal. So about your suggestion of ,,Conservative Social Capialism”, I say no thanks.
Liberal always seems to mean, an erosion of morals, and standards. Loss, of culture and history and, nearly always includes mass, migration, no thanks
You don’t know what you are talking about.
yes, I do, just because I, don’t agree with you.
read about liberalism in 19 century Britain, to see what really ment
We should change the system, but there is nothing better at the moment. The biggest trouble is us, human. No system will work until 100% of the participant will accept the game rules, and knowing the arrogance and egoism, also the stupidity of human beings that is just not happening.
*must be voluntary otherwise is dictatorship
absolutely. Also must be an option to fully opt out.
People are different, one size doesn’t fit all . Conformism leads t o stagnation. Imagine that all the people conformed to Catholic church at n Middle Ages. We would still think that Earth is center of universe. People don’t change much but societies yes. Read Illiad or Odissee for comparation
In my view it should not be about growth or degrowth, but about quality of growth
Or level of life
Capitalism… summed up in one medical bill: Coronavirus survival comes with a $1.1 million, 181-page price tag
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/inspiring-story-of-seattle-mans-coronavirus-survival-comes-with-a-1-1-million-dollar-hospital-bill/?fbclid=IwAR3tKaJY6qppCSnZVPz6hGxbpVxGVBPcl5htKCXBENnYCHiEvAiLpeD012E
It is a rip off I think is was cheaper to buy a house for his, treat him there and then burn it
always depending on, the LEADERS.
systems are neutrals: kingdoms, socialisms, capitalisms, how good or how bad to live on them, ONLY depending, who sitting at the wheelhouse.
in other hand: when You se a crashed car, do you blame the car manufacturers?
do You?
really?
as Otto von Habsburg said: a state, when peoples suffering of bad circumstances, does mean, that state governed by criminals.
Sometimes is the fault of the car, bad brakes, bad steering wheel
indeed.
it’s happen, when the car owner let that critical parts, to weared out.
No. It has made life for the people in Euorpe more peaceful and wealthier. That doesn’t mean it’s perfect.
No.
In present times is making harm because is dominated by inhuman greed not human reason
None of the listed negatives have anything to do with capitalism. Socialism is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions.
Economic inequality in communist China is one of the highest in the world. It’s higher even than the economic inequality in the USA. Also China has one of the most polluted air in the world. And finally about pandemics. Where did Covid-19 come from? It came from communist China.
Capitalism is the economic system of Europe since the French Revolution. Do you prefer the feudalism instead? I think not. Capitalism is good. Corporatism is not.
The biggest poverty is in the communist ratholes like Northern Korea or Venezuela, anyway
and their leaders bath in any luxury they want.
Yes, that’s always the case in comunist (and other( dictarures), the key is just to brainwash the poor majority,so that they support they ideologic leader without noticing that they live in shit and mud. Already the USSR’s leader Chruscow had a Rolls-Royce among several private cars…
Wtf is this post? What you want now to turn the EU into CCCP? I didnt got to see comunism but my parents did. Not cool
Yeah it’s becoming more clear that it is heading that way in one way or another.
its only the media that is just up for some leftists ideology. But the warm and safe homes they have is built by capitalism.
wtf is this logic? Its either this nihilistic capitalism or CCCP?
why does everyone who acknowledges that capitalism isn’t perfect get accused of wanting to bring back the USSR? Are these really the only two economic and political systems that are possible?
all systems are flawed we all. Know this but the more liberal a market is the more it self regulates. The state just has to deal with consumer rights and law of operating in the country. Anything else is harmfull.
it’s binary logic. Some people just can’t process more than that.
Yeah it’s becoming more clear that it is heading that way in one way or another.
No, you freaking marxist morons idiots
Capitalism and communism are made by one….
Are you serious??
Hahaha, why don’t you ask about communism and the hundreds of millions of people that died and suffered because of this stupidity?
stupidity is to repeat propaganda tales in the Era of openness of knowledge sources
each one of us is free to express his thoughts… just because you live in a capitalist world. In a communist world I would be dead now.
So to protect myself i hate and fight communism with all my heart and powers.
PS: communists are usually good guys and I have many communist friends. But they are a little bit naive and don’t see that their leaders live like kings while their people are literally slaves.
Because communism was never the world universal economic and social model. Apart from that even if communism was a bad idea in practise that does not excuse capitalism for it own I justice’s ad disadvantages. On the contrary, if you claim to be “the best” you should prove it in practise and not just in words.
Fortunately now, however, our Greece is free from all this even though we have delivered monetary policy to our creditors.
,,or, HAS COMUNISM DONE MORE HARM THEN …CAPITALISM ?
Capitalism needs a maintenance and reality check. No harm, like everything it has start showing cracks and parts of it malfunction, and in need of reforms and attention. Otherwise it will go the way of other systems, once people fed up with it.
EU has been hijacked by Altiero Spinelli’s followers. Now we have that kind of questions.
First I am very astounded reading your assumption that the capitalism “is credited for reducing global poverty”. Seriously??? Where is it taken from? Probably from any western normative aid programmes… Capitalism is a system where humans use private property to generate wealth. It works well only when owners are willing to create benefits with their goods. This is why commerce and a possibility of exchange should be interesting to this system. However a question whether capitalism is good for people in the world is another thing. On one hand is a philosophical question, on the other hand look at Asia, Africa, South America. Than ask yourself where to take a property from and give it to people, how to do it? And it is also an ethical issue. I would say, without discussing human values that are attached to our actions, capitalism could be as much as harmful as socialism is.
Who knows..my experiance is of Ireland..with holiday visits to europe..i do think we are better off than we were before the “wars”….but the climate seems to be messed up..altho we are enjoying the warmer weather here!!!..it does seem that there are only a few wealthy people and the rest are doing their best to work their way through..with a growing number of homeless and realy poor and neglected peoples throughout the world…we realy need to fix that..we need all of us to bein the “working through it group”…please…and yes the plastic situation is worse than terrible..we just have to ban plastics..full stop…thats the only way to do this..theres masks everywhere now…i made my own from recyclable cotton and wash it every day… anyway ..the sun is shining at the moment ..hopefully we can all strive to make this world a better place for everyone :D
Has capitalism done any good?
Once, we had the perfect economic system, we lived in abundance of goods and a just distribution of those goods and the responsibilities. We lived in harmony with nature and in peace with each other.
Then, capitalism came and hell was unleashed. Poverty and war and inequality were invented. We started to take advantage of nature and became mean to each other.
Conclusion: we just have to tear down the evil economic and political systems that we have in Europe and we will return to our natural, peaceful state.
#not
your imagination of beginnings of the humanity seem utopian to me. Until capitalism you miss other deadly and abusive systems. I don’t believe that humans can live peacefully “just like that”. People compare themselves and want take advantage of somebody other’s goods. From there should we start.
Alkış is being sarcastic
LOL. Capitalism is an improvement on the feudalism that preceded it, but it does have some major problems, which we should acknowledge.
agree. Nothing is perfect. What concerns me is that 1. people often assign problems on capitalism that are not really problems of capitalism. And false diagnosis typically leads to false treatment. And 2. the various alternatives are far worse than capitalism + people who propose them don’t really care to consider the negative side effects of their proposals.
So my take is that a smartly regulated capitalsm is the worst system, with the exception of all the others.
If capitalism would be based on a world to a starting point with the same level of income in real terms, then the antagonism would be purely based on craftsmanship and the ingenuity of the businessman. Today is the traditional colonial exploitation wearing the mask of legitimacy.
The biggest issue with capitalism though (putting aside the self destruction issues) in monetary terms is the impact on human societies and their values.
Capitalism and its ideological vessel is one of the most outdated socioeconomic policy which consumes the human knowledge and modifies even education to a well oiled workers producing machine believing that the human thinking reached ground zero and from now on only capitalism is the only way of life putting aside several other needs of the human civilization.
Feeding the instincts only aspects of a human individual will drive the states to unlimited cracks of social cohesion.
REACT
Capitalism is great.
But only if you have capital.
Bank of England has “printed” £1.4 trillion since March.
Where’s this money? Why do we allow all the wealth to go to a very small percentage of people? Why do we then allow those people to hide that wealth and not pay any tax on it, depriving societies of even more money?
Why the hell are we still arguing about this capitalism/socialism when it’s so obvious to anyone that owns his own brain that mixed economies are the best solution we have right now?
Arguing about how much of each? Sure.
Arguing if socialism or capitalism is better is just too smooth brain.
Debating Europe- always pushing discussions related to the Liberal( leftist ) ideology. Leftism has a hidden agenda of bringing back Communism to Europa and USA.
we are 10 years away from communism in Europe, unfortunately.
Much more good than harm. The question os frankly stupid..
The only problem is that the communist alternative, also produces a huge amount of waste and unfiltered pollution. The only problem is that the communist alternative, also produces a huge amount of garbage and unfiltered pollution.
Yes it did
Capitalism is not the problem, the problem is corruption in politics that turn capitalism unstable. Capitalism is an alarm system through money so that people with many types of problems can be easily localized to be helped.
Who doubts?
That’s kinda relevant because capitalism created world poverty
What happened to Africa is a product of capitalism
The exploitation of their resources and creation of fake borders in order to include hostile tribes and therefore make them unable to agree on a common good policy led to starvation and poverty
So capitalism is trying to solve a problem it did create
You’re funny mate!
I like your ideas because they lead to further thinking. Whe should ask “who” is supposed to decide for people and with which intention.
I believe that they needed more time but that time was not given to them
The Japanese had time, unable to be conquered in the mid 1800’s to look at their situation, study western technology and ideologies and come up with something and through trial and error they are what they are now
But the Africans never had that time. They were quickly conquered and forced to live in borders they had no idea about and had to share them with their traditional enemies without even having reconciled with them.
This will never allow them to advance and all this was created intentionally so that they can be controlled through loans and foreign intervention every time a government will fall (and it will as long as its people hate each other)
I share fully your view on historical development of capitalism in some places of the world. We should not forget that capitalism accumulates, so it means it creates differences depending on conditions of its development. Obviously not every part of the world got the same time. It has far less to do with people’s ability to generate wealth as some capitalism militants may argue
people forget that capitalism is not charity. It’s a weapon used in times of war
The Spanish-Dutch war is such an example. The Dutch used their version of capitalism in order to have enough money and commission armies and navy to beat back the huge Spanish empire
Also industrialization was mostly used in order to create an endless amount of weapons not for the welfare of the people
And the welfare of the people is good for capitalism as long as its profitable for the owners of the means of production. If they can produce lower quality food for less money and sell it for more, they will do it. They won’t be like “no I care about the people”, whoever believes that need to see the history of capitalism and also take a look at the food that is available for the poor based on prices
what are you on about, poverty its the default condition. No one created poverty, we humans were all poor at some point. Now 96.7% are not, that’s because of capitalism directly. Capitalism improves the quality of products and services while reducing prices making those products and services available to everyone over time. That’s how you generate wealth.
where I look around me I see 96.7% being poor
It’s time to leave stupid statistics made by people who protect their own ideologies and look at countries where their own native systems were ruined by capitalism and were transformed into banana republics that can feed nobody and also look at how the climate is ruined by the very capitalism that ruined societies that had their needs and priorities set for hundreds of years
Africa is a common example but South America can be used as a good example too as well as India
Communities that flourished based on their own systems and could feed their people now they can’t feed almost 70%
Wealth might grow in terms of numbers but these numbers are concentrated at the hands of few people
What statistics can you use? GDP? It is the average which means that 1000 people with 1 dollar and 1 person with 1000 dollars will make it look like each person earns 500 dollars but it’s not the truth
Look up: “The World’s poorest people are getting richer faster” on human humanprogress.org
the world bank and the United Nations Secretary-General. Now tell me your sources.
You are full of rhetoric but don’t actually provide any facts.
The world Bank doesn’t qualify as a source neither does the UN
Basically the baker down the street has more accurate sources than the world bank
My sources are the very people who live in different countries in combination with the history of these lands
A combination of historical data can provide you with the information of how these countries had more stable economies during former years and more stable societies which proves that the lifestyle they followed would cover their basic needs in compare to today’s times
And for your information, once again I will tell you this, statistics work only as an average between people which does no justice in understanding the condition of the poor people
Before you speak about rhetoric learn how to see the flaws of your searching system
I am wasting my time as well. You provided me an article that says nothing at all
Just someone saying “world poverty is reduced”
But you never actually sat down to think who is saying that and what the hell are they talking about. And to prove to you how bizarre is what you just posted I will ask you this question. It says that in 1820 world poverty was more than 90%. OK how do they know that? They had “world Bank” back then or did they have a world economic sensus? Lol only based on that you can see how made up all these numbers are
just the fact that you don’t understand how they calculate the 1820 numbers shows a) you haven’t read the article so saying I have only “provided a title “ is at least ridiculous and b) you absolutely know nothing about statistics.
It’s okay to be ignorant, we all are at some point about some subject, but you should educate yourself before lecturing other people. Have a good day
dude instead of trying to insult me in order to use emotions just answer me this. They made a claim, they want to sound smart but they are the ones providing no information and no actual facts. I am still waiting to see how they know what was happening around the world in the 1820’s and also I want to know how he got things reversed about the industrial revolution. The industrial revolution happened in Britain specifically because the wages in England were very high. So the industrial revolution actually lowered instead of raising the salaries in Britain. Not that much of a help
I am still waiting the 1820’s statistics or else all this is a bullshit census that they basically made up trying to look impressive. Their words, they have to prove them
It is people who pollute atmosphere, not capitalism. Only with capitalism poor people got an opportunity to become rich just by obtaining skills and doing job or being talented without having any birth right for that. Global poverty became an item only when capitalism appeared, because capitalism provided resources to discuss solutions for this problem. Before capitalism global poverty existed but there was no name for this phenomena, because it was a norm. Global pandemics? Were there really no global pandemics before capitalism? There were. However, there was no treatment for them. Capitalism also pushes many companies to develop medicine and to develop faster ways to obtain the medicine.
Discussion is always a good thing. However, what I see in this group for some while is that topic for the discussions tend to become more and more dumb, this discourages me from following the group.
most of millionaire’s children are millionaires by birth right. The same for poor.
When you blend capitalism with government’s social and welfare policies is like you are unable to understand the difference between a sociopolitical element like liberalism and a economic policy called capitalism.
Democracy, oligarchy or aristocracy are not necessarily bound together with capitalism. Social mobility can be ensured by a polity.
We are not leaving on the cold War to ideologise each and every grain of sand
You shouldn’t be placing such a question.
Do you know any system you may say it’s not capitalistic? I don’t…
Andy Puzder wrote:
Capitalism versus socialism. We can sum up each economic system in one line:
Capitalism is based on human greed. Socialism is based on human need.
Right?
No. Wrong.
So wrong, it’s exactly backwards. And I’ll prove it to you.
Been on Amazon lately? Each of the thousands of products Amazon offers represents the work of people who believe they have something you want or need. If they’re right, they prosper. If they’re wrong, they don’t.
That’s how the free market works. It encourages people to improve their lives by satisfying the needs of others. No one starts a business making a thing or providing a service for themselves. They start a business to make things or provide services for others.
I speak from personal experience.
When I was the CEO of the company that owns Carl’s Jr. and Hardee’s restaurant chains, we spent millions of dollars every year trying to determine what customers wanted. If our customers didn’t like something, we changed it–and fast, because if we didn’t, our competitors would (pun intended) eat us for lunch.
The consumer–that’s you–has the ultimate power. In effect, you vote with every dollar you spend.
In a socialist economy, the government has the ultimate power. It decides what you get from a limited supply it decides should exist.
Instead of millions of people making millions of decisions about what they want, a few people–government elites–decide what people should have and how much they should pay for it. Not surprisingly, they always get it wrong. Have you ever noticed that late-stage socialist failures always run out of essential items like toilet paper?
Of course, this isn’t a problem for those who have the right connections with the right people. Those chosen few get whatever they want. But everyone else is out of luck.
Venezuela, once the richest country in South America, is the most recent example of socialism driving a prosperous country into an economic ditch. Maybe you think it’s an unfair example. I’m not sure why, but okay. We’ll ignore the fact that leftist activists celebrated it as a great socialist success–right up until it wasn’t.
But what about Western European countries? Don’t they have socialist economies? People seem pretty happy there. Why can’t we have what they have–free health care, free college, stronger unions?
Good question. And the answer may surprise you.
There are no socialist countries in Western Europe. Most are just as capitalist as the United States. The only difference–and it’s a big one–is that they offer more government benefits than the U.S. does.
We can argue about the costs of these benefits and the point at which they reduce individual initiative, thus doing more harm than good. Scandinavians have been debating those questions for years. But only a free-market capitalist economy can produce the wealth necessary to sustain all of the supposedly “free stuff” Europeans enjoy. To get the “free stuff,” after all, you have to create enough wealth to generate enough tax revenue to pay for everything the government gives away.
Without capitalism, you’re Venezuela.
In a 2015 speech at Harvard, Denmark’s prime minister took great pains to make this point: “I know that some people in the U.S. associate the Nordic model with… socialism, therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.”
So when you point to Denmark as a paragon of socialism, you’re really singing the praises of capitalism.
The more capitalism, the less “socialism” you need. Look at America since 2017. A policy of lower taxes and less government regulation (that’s more capitalism) has led to a robust economic expansion, something thought impossible just a few years earlier. Unemployment, notably among minority groups typically most at risk for poverty, is at a generational low. Economic expansion gets people off welfare and into work (that’s less “socialism”).
None of this requires a degree in economics. Common sense is all you need. That’s why it’s so frustrating to see young people praising socialism and criticizing capitalism. It’s bad enough that they’re working against their own interest–better job prospects, better wages, personal freedom–but they are also working against the interest of the less fortunate.
Capitalism leads to economic democracy. Socialism leads to the economic dictatorship of the elite. Always. And everywhere.
So beware what you ask for. You just might get it.
We have many garbage problems because the industry, including the Chinese one, produces low quality articles, not very durable, it is necessary to increase the quality standard of the products, making them more durable.
Do I have to answer rhetorical questions?
Yes.
Yes to both questions
that’s why the pro-Europeans are all from the PD
blame on you, socialists!
Indeed, Capitalism allowed your stupid ass to survive.
Big Mistake, ol’Cap.
Do you suport marxist agenda? If yes move to China
Prodan Razvan, that’s not really an answer to the question. And China has Maoism, not Marxism. And it’s more like state capitalism now.
Tristan Van Camp Mao was a Marxist. Learn history.
Любомир Иванчев, Mao wasn’t a pure Marxist. He had his own interpretation of communism called Maoism. And I know my history.
Tristan Van Camp Marx wasn’t a pure marxist. He didn’t come up with his ideas from nothing, he based them on Hegel and other thinkers before him. That doesn’t make Mao less marxist.
Любомир Иванчев, almost every philosopher builds upon the work of his predecessors. But Marx was a pure marxist. He was more marxist than Mao. But I get the impression that you as a Bulgarian might have a prejudiced view on communism because of your country’s history with Stalinism.
Tristan Van Camp My country was ruled by Stalinism for less than 10 years. It was ruled by marxist communism for 45 years. I’m not prejudiced, I was born in it, my parent’s and their families lived it and I lived it for a short period of time as a small kid. That’s not prejudice, that’s personal experience.
Любомир Иванчев, you do know that personal experiences are what forms prejudices?
Tristan, you are talking about utopia. A perfect system cannot exist because humans are imperfect. We are neither capable of creating a perfect system, nor capable of implementing it. All such experiments in history have led to misery and suffering every single time.
Tristan -……………Maoism builds on the ideals of Marxism; the difference inbetween is not caucasian – but chinese culture…..
Tristan Van Camp with the leaders part i dont think we will ever be able to chose perfect ones. With fairism il. Have to take a. Look.
Prodan Razvan, the so-called communism of the Communist Bloc wasn’t all that communist. It was totalitarian, while Marxisme was meant to give power to the people. And capitalism in it’s purest form has also lead to poverty and corruption.
Prodan Razvan, humans would be capable of implementing a better system if we would choose capable leaders. By the way, have you heard of the idea of fairism?
Prodan Razvan Not to mention that a lot more people have escaped communist countries to go to capitalist countries than the other way around…
Tristan Van Camp so you didnt live then, have no relatives that live then and you insist on teling people that had first or second hand accounts that what people lived through was not real
Tristan Van Camp then humans are incapable of implementing a sistem. History is the best teacher
Tristan Van Camp my parents and grantparents lived through comunism. In all its forms it only leads to poverty and coruption. You cant even think what you want. You have to be aligned to the party. Dont you find it odd that people from ex comunist countries opose comunism the most?
Prodan Razvan, there has never really been a pure marxist country.
Tristan Van Camp Prejudices can be taught without any personal experience. Most prejudice is actually like that.
Tristan Van Camp ok then look tell me a regine that was real marxism. Il look into it. But i read Marx (a bit) and i read books around his ideology. The human component will never let a utopia be created. There will always be greed and coruption. And in comunist countires these spiral out of control fast. Capitalist isnt perfect either but its the best we have. The more you enpower the people through ownership and competition the more the nation prospers. Even the nordic states have implemented this in the 80-90 to save the economy and the social programs they have are paid by the petrolium money that is invested in stocks.
Prodan Razvan, I’m not saying that what those people went through wasn’t real, I’m saying it wasn’t Marxism as it was meant to be. That it was a totalitarian regime and not a democracy. And capitalism isn’t synonymous with democracy. And there are quite a few different economic models besides capitalism and communism.
Patrick L. Sean Friswell, definition of Maoism from the Oxford Dictionary of English:
“the communist doctrines of Mao Zedong as formerly practised in China, having as a central idea permanent revolution and stressing the importance of the peasantry, small-scale industry, and agricultural collectivization.”
Marxism:
“the political and economic theories of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, later developed by their followers to form the basis of communism.
Central to Marxist theory is an explanation of social change in terms of economic factors, according to which the means of production provide the economic base which influences or determines the political and ideological superstructure. Marx and Engels predicted the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism by the proletariat and the eventual attainment of a classless communist society.”
Stalinism:
“the ideology and policies adopted by Stalin, based on centralization, totalitarianism, and the pursuit of communism.”
Tristan Congratulations on copy+pasting a description from the internet. It’s still the same principals; but based on cultural differences.
Patrick L. Sean Friswell, it’s not from the internet but from an established dictionary. And no, the principles differ: for example Maoism stresses the importance of the peasantry, small-Scare industry and agricultural collectivization, and not so much a classless communist society. Stalinism added totalitarianism in the mix, which was also part of Maoism.
Just get the best from all systems, delete the worst and add some common sense, caring and wisdom from the now. Capitalism satisfies the inherent selfishnesses and greed in humanity and gives people the opportunity for financial freedom, however it needs to be tempered with caring and responsibility. Corporations and mega-wealth needs to be regulated, poverty needs to be abolished and a minimum good standard of living for all people needs to be created. But without capitalism, we will lose freedom.
Interests of the people always come second in “capitalism”. When you put people’s interest first it’s called “socialism”. It’s just the definition and reality.Why would a democracy put the interests of the capital ahead of their own children’s interest is still a mystery, only the “media” can answer.
George Thomson Yeah, because all of those other systems and states with the concentration camps put people first 😂
Любомир Иванчев, why do you see the would like it’s either black or white? There are several different nuances positions between pure capitalism and pure communism. The Cold War is over and we can leave its rhetoric behind us.
Любомир Иванчев you mean like USA, which has most prisoners per capita than any other country? Or Guantanamo-like facilities?
Or are you speaking from one of the 4 USAn military bases, which occupy your country – Bulgaria? How is paying 2 Billion for a few F16 work for your people? Did they improve the “healthcare” facilities, from the 70s you still enjoy? 😅
Tristan Van Camp I am stating facts. Why are millions of people from Asia and Africa ready to risk their lives in rubber boats to come live in Europe if capitalism is so bad? Why do socialist states restrict their people from travelling free if socialism is so good? It’s not thinking in black and white, it’s just thinking. When you are saying a system is bad, you need to ask “Bad, compared to what?”. What is a better alternative to capitalism? Because socialism sure isn’t better.
Capitalism has raised all of Europe out of poverty and feudal tyranny. It has done the same thing everywhere where it has been applied, currently it’s doing it in Africa and Asia.And here is some evidence:1. https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty2. https://data.worldbank.org/topic/poverty
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Любомир Иванчев, was it capitalism alone or was it combined with social democracy?
Tristan Van Camp Social democracy is a policy, not an economical system. It doesn’t exclude capitalism. The Scandinavian countries are a prime example for that. They have capialist economies with free trade and social democrat policies. Social state and a socialist state are two completley different things.
Любомир Иванчев, and policy doesn’t have an impact on property going down?
Tristan Van Camp A social (welfare) state isn’t socialism. Property going down or up is competely irrelevant. Because in a marxist socialist country you don’t have private property and free markets like you do in a capitalist welfare state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state
So when you ask “Has capitalism done more harm than good”, the most logical question is “Is the welfare state something bad or good”? Because without a strong capitalist economy, it’s impossible to have a welfare state. The capitalist economy provides the money needed to fuel such a system.
Любомир Иванчев capitalism literally brought colonialism & imperialism to half of the world, caused the two world wars in Europe + not to mention the collapse of the ecosystems.
Capitalism has done some considerable good, it’s true – but the cons are much more than the pros. Neoliberism deprived workers of their right & dignity. Lobbies have corrupted politics to the extent that democracy is now just a farce. It has escalated national conflicts all over the world. It gave us the atomic bomb. It’s polluting the whole world. Thousands and thousands of species are going extinct. It’s causing depression to be the most common disease in Earth. It’s creating a fuckin alienating society. There is no social mobility & if you’re part of a minority it’s even worse.
Capitalism has created a lot of goods and jobs, but it failed to meet our expectations.
Riccardo Cuciniello Collonialism and imperialism have existed since the dawn of civilization on all continents. Chinese, Persians, Romans, Aztecs all had empire and collonization hundreds, even thousands of years before capitalism even existed. If you believe capitalism has failed to meet your expectations, maybe you should study history better and lower your expectations.
Любомир Иванчев dude modern imperialism and colonization are on a whole another level. You can’t compare the Roman Empire (which was the best thing that happened to the history of the West imho) with, say, the British one.
Riccardo Cuciniello Why can’t you compare them? They are both empires that dominated other nations by means of war, diplomacy and economy, and collonized new territories. And they both carried good and bad things with them, like all empires do. For all of its great achievments and progress, the Roman Empire had its fair share of slavery, cruelty and inhumanity. Just like any other empire in history.
It seems to me you are looking only for those facts and arguments that support your ideas and disregard those historical facts and processes that contradict them.
Любомир Иванчев I won’t spend too much time arguing because I haven’t got much time, sadly xD it’s a fascinating argument tho
let’s just say that with the advent of Christianity (which both, at least formally, more equality when compared with the Roman society, which the ones u mentioned, considered slavery as a mere fact of social status), Europeans had to go big in order to justify slavery. In other words, we invented Racism™. Not that other cultures weren’t racist or what – our kind of Racism was a specific “philosophical” project created in order to justify the coexistence of slavery & Christianity (being sons of God – and all that was thought to come from that: civilization, success in business (think of the great relationship between protestantism & capitalism!), the dignity of the bourgeoisie and even equal rights with the French Revolution (funny enough, French Illuminists were the first to criticize Christianity & capitalism ahah)). This justification literally left Europeans with “white paper”. They got creative with racism, to the extent that uhm a whole science like phrenology was basically meant to prove the inferiority of blacks, or Churchill literally used African to test their brand new machine guns (ah yes, the late 1800s <3 ). Noone hated their slaves like we did, really.
Riccardo Cuciniello In Eastern Europe none of the nations had collonialism and slavery like the big collonial empires did. In fact, a lot of the Eastern European nations were enslaved for centuries by a non-christian, non-capitalist empire – the Ottoman Empire. Sorry to say, but broad generalizations like the ones you are making are simply false and inaccurate. Just because a handful of all the nations in Europe had empire, collonialism and slavery, doesn’t mean all of Europe had it and that Europe should be looked at only through this lense. There are literally 10 times more ethnicities and nations in Europe that didn’t have collonial empires and slavery, than the ones who had them.
Любомир Иванчев oh yeah I know. But at the same time, would u deny that the English, the French, the Belgians and so on were the real protagonists of European history? 🤷🏻♂️
Also read what I said – it’s not about the magnitude or the quantitative extent (which were massive). It’s about the quality of our imperialism.
Riccardo Cuciniello Everyone is the protagonist in their own history. That’s why we need to look objectively at the facts, instead of demonizing all of Europe and making broad generalizations. Lets take a look at the facts:
The British Empire was the first empire in the world to officially abolish slavery in 1833. British ships literally started policing and huting down slave traders along the African Atlantic coast.
The English, French and Belgians have all abandoned collonializm and slavery, and have consistently made amends to the nations and people they enslaved over the past 50+ years as part of their official policy.
France, the UK and Germany are among the top investors and donors to African nations today.
Have the Ottomans (modern day Turkey), the Chinese, or the Arabs done something similar? No, even though Arabian and Ottoman slave trade in Eastern Africa was booming for centuries. Not to mention that China is currently completely unapollogetically collonizing Tibet, Siberia and Xinjiang and putting innocent uyghur people in concentration camps as we speak.
Some of the harm capitalism has done in Australia:https://youtu.be/cuQZ6rALub8
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There are two kinds of capitalism, the democratic and primitive communist capitalism, where the winners serve themselves from the outset without hesitation and without any economic achievement.
Better north Coreia ou Cuba
https://www.prageru.com/video/if-you-hate-poverty-you-should-love-capitalism/
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IF YOU SEE PEOPLE HUNGRY, POOR ,HAVING NO FREE HEALTH SYSTEM ,WAR ,DESTROY THE NATURE,DEPTH AND.. ..THIS MEAN TO ME THAT ALL THE POLITICAL SYSTEMS HAVE FAILED. I NEED NO POLITICAL IDEAS. WHAT I NEED IS THE OPOSITE THAT I WRITE UP