Poland and the EU have not been seeing eye to eye for a while. Since it won the absolute majority to govern, the right-wing PiS Law and Justice Party has been refashioning Poland’s relationship with the EU. The EU’s response? Lodging complaints with the European Court of Justice and filing proceedings for a “breach of contract”. The majority of Poles, meanwhile, both support their government and, at the same time, remain enthusiastic about the EU. There’s no talk of a Polish exit from the Union – on the contrary, the latest survey indicates that 50% of Poles like the EU, 7% have no opinion and only 12% were negative about it. How is this possible?

The first disagreement was over Europe’s refugee quotas. Poland had previously agreed to take in a certain number of refugees but, after the 2015 election, the new government didn’t feel compelled to stick to their predecessors’ agreements. The European Court of Justice has sided with the Commission but the issue remains unresolved. Meanwhile, Poland’s opposition, is protesting proposed judicial reforms, but the media and public institutions are becoming more and more loyal to the government. So where is Poland heading with this current government?

We asked our readers and Nescho doubted that the Polish government was aware of the damage they are doing to democracy with their reforms.

We shared his point of view with Dr Gesine Schwan, a German political science professor who’s been championing the German-Polish relationship for decades. She was twice in the running to be Germany’s President and is currently the President and Co-Founder of the Humboldt-Viadrina Governance Platform gGmbH, which advocates the promotion of democracy. Does she agree with Nescho? Is the PiS party aware of the consequences of its reforms?

Our reader Marek had a totally different point of view. Poland democratically elected its government so that’s the end of the story. Is a democratic election a valid argument or does it fall short?

For a second opinion, we asked Dr Tomasz Grosse, a professor at Warsaw University and a researcher at the Sobieski Institute, a Polish think-tank. Does he agree with Marek?

The Polish government (supported by the Law and Justice party (PiS) has a clear electoral mandate. It has introduced various audacious reforms which are contested by opposition as well as the European Commission, but still it has the right to introduce those reforms as long as it is in accordance with the Polish Constitution. There are controversies between politicians and legal experts as to whether some reforms, including judiciary reforms, are in accordance with the Polish Constitution.

The problem is that the Constitution gives various arguments both for government and for opposition. For instance, it states in art. 180 that the Polish parliament has the right to decide in ordinary bill about the retirement age of judges, including the judges of the Supreme Court. So Parliament has the right to shorten the age limit to 65. In another article the Constitution states that the mandate of the President of the Supreme Court lasts for a six-year term (art. 183). The opposition claims that the mandate of the current Supreme Court President should last until 2020, even if she is older than 65. The only institution which could resolve the conflict is the Polish Constitutional Court, not the European Commission or the EU Court of Justice.

What is Gesine Schwan’s reaction towards Marek?

Coming up next, our reader Silke thinks that it can’t continue like this and the EU needs to take measures. Poland doesn’t want a dictatorship. Should the EU take action?

First of all, it is hard to understand why Polish democracy is threatened. In Poland we have normal political elections, without any political opposition representative in prison or any obstacle for the opposition to be active in the public sphere or in media. There is a diversified media landscape with the whole political spectrum represented without political monopoly in Polish media, nor any official or formal censorship in public discourse. The political opposition has the freedom to demonstrate political views in public.

But we have a very strong political internal conflict between government and opposition, which is pretty normal in Polish political culture. What is not so normal is the very strong and permanent support from Polish society for the PiS government and the distinct gap between support for government and for opposition parties. What’s more we could add that conflict and deliberation are the foundations of democratic order. So it could be considered proof for the vitality of Polish democracy.

Secondly, the EU is not well prepared to intervene in the Polish political debate. The EU has no competence to settle member state dispute about allegedly breaching the Constitution. What’s more, the EU has its own problems with democracy, which is known in literature as the “democratic deficit” of the EU. And many scholars are of the opinion that, during the crises, this deficit has expanded.

Next up we had Josef, who goes so far as to suggest that Poland shouldn’t stay in the EU if it doesn’t stick to democratic values. He thinks they only joined the EU for the subsidies anyway. How does Dr Schwan respond to this?

Is Poland giving up on democracy? Are justice reforms and the management of refugees national issues? Should the other EU members accept this situation or should the Commission get involved before it’s too late? What do you think?

IMAGE CREDITS: (CC) BigStock – wjarek; PORTRAIT CREDITS: Grosse – (c) Instytut Sobieskiego


132 comments Post a commentcomment

What do YOU think?

  1. avatar
    José

    No ofcourse not, everyone that do not want do that the EU says have imidiatly a stamp for smth. They have there own ways and Wills.

    • avatar
      Péter

      I think you haven’t heard of judicial independence

    • avatar
      José

      No i Am not, sorry for my ignorace. Ofcourse you know everything and you are allways right. Stay there in your UK with your things Couse everyone is waiting a long time to see you all very far from us.

    • avatar
      Mark

      What has the EU got to do with the actions of the current Polish government? They have acted toward the destruction of democracy by dismantling the separation of powers, appointing inexperienced, yet party-loyal judges to courts, ignored the constitution on many occasions, amongst a myriad of other things.

      Stop trying to make this about the EU. It is about a blatant grab for total power.

    • avatar
      Mark

      José If you haven’t heard of judicial independence, then why are you making commentary on democracy, when you don’t understand what you are talking about?

      Making ad hominem attacks, might make you feel good, but it does nothing to bolster your argument.

    • avatar
      José

      You voted to go out. So Why you want and CARE about something that you do not want be part of it.

    • avatar
      José

      No i do not understand, you just Said so i do not understand. And ofcourse you know all Couse you just Said you do. Wow

    • avatar
      José

      Mark you talking about democracy dictating What i know and that you know and trying impose that you have reason just beacouse you Said some cute words about it. And trying to put the image that everything that i could say it is not correct.

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Péter Where was your condemnation when the previous government packed the courts with judges who it controlled ?

    • avatar
      José

      Ivan Burrows, condemnation!!!!??? Hahaha. He is just an hater that think that his opinoin is the ultimate answer and have the absolut truth. He can say some cute words.

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Péter You think Judges controlled by the unelected rulers of the EU in Brussels would be independent ? lol 8|

    • avatar
      Hartmann

      Péter I sure you don´t know the German system?

    • avatar
      nuno

      Even if their ways are against EU laws? Democracy demands sacrifices too, not just benefits. If 20 out of 27 countries agree on one law and 1 of remaining 7 countries thinks it has the right to say NO without consequences, it is anti-democracy at that point, and only cares about themselves. If you only care about yourself then you should be alone.

  2. avatar
    Stef

    But when the EU makes requests that no one in Poland supports is somehow ok…

    • avatar
      Daniel

      Can’t have all of the good and none of the bad. Its a package deal.

  3. avatar
    Sadık

    Well, on the one hand, EU says everyone should respect the majority choose, on the other hand, when the majority choose nationalist party then EU has problem.

    • avatar
      Dato

      Sadik is that what they taught you in Turkey.

    • avatar
      Sadik

      Dato – it is not what they taught me, it is a reality that should be taken into consideration. As long as EU and other extremist leftists attack nationalist movement, there will never be a clear solution to the modern political problems. Poland is (here is important) sociologically a nationalist country. Leave the governments, it is the society that first of should be criticised. Though, I know many institutions and education system are on the hands of the politicians, still many people can change his/her mind.

  4. avatar
    Zoltan

    There should ask a question if Juncker is able to do his job?

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      Drink alcohol? 😀

  5. avatar
    Ivan

    Of course not, they just don’t want to lose their democracy to the unelected European Politburo & their EU fanatical sheep. It’s a dam silly question.

    • avatar
      Manuel

      Ivan, como o teu país já está fora da UE e, por isso, já recuperaste o teu paraíso democrático, porque continuas a preocupar-te com a UE?? Preocupa-te antes com o post brexit. Não vez que objectivamente estás a fazer o jogo do Putin e do trump????

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Manuel I don’t worry about the EU because it is already dying, I worry about people & the democratic rights of people are being ignored, subverted & destroyed by a failed ‘ One people, one Nation, One leader’ EU ideology.

      But thank you for expressing your hatred of free speech 8|

    • avatar
      Jose

      He just stated his opinion. He didn’t seized your free speech right. And he has a point. You are out. Leave the rest of us alone. Best thing that happened to Europe was Brexit.

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Jose – By questioning my right to hold & voice an opinion on EU dogma simply because I am British clearly means he did comrade as does your comment..

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Jose – By the way can I ask if you have no interest in the views of others why are you even on a page with the word ‘debating’ in the title ? 8|

    • avatar
      Gabriella

      Ivan – because he is a liberal…. They are nothing but opinion terrorists… If they do not like what they hear, they just shot you down.. I lived through communism – they are exactly the same nowadays.

  6. avatar
    Marco

    Being a nationalist party winning the elections doesn’t mean you can destroy the values of democracy and freedom of speech

    • avatar
      Ivan

      But it does mean you represent the people, you do what they elected you to do & not panda to the wishes of the unelected in Brussels.

    • avatar
      Marco

      You don’t represent people by acting against the principles of European Constitution. People’s will is not always right

    • avatar
      Walerian

      Acting according to majority of people will is definition of democracy :)

    • avatar
      Marco

      I’m talking about Poland, not France and Belgium, which legitimately refused it. Poland simply canceled the referendum and never carried it out

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Marco Sorry comrade but your Emperor Juncker says you can’t cherry pick, when the French voted NO to an EU constitution it didn’t mean you could just adopt it without a vote in Poland. This is why the unelected European Politburo just ignored the will of the people, renamed it the Lisbon Treaty and forced it onto everyone anyway which again is the action of a dictator, not a democratic institution.

    • avatar
      Marco

      It’s not “my Emperor Juncker”. I’m also very critic about EU. I’m just saying that it’s not normal to be part of a free trade union when you don’t even respect the principle of freedom of speech. And by the way, Polish Parliament legally ratified the Treaty of Lisbon, just so you know

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Marco –

      1. Like other Nations a pro EU Polish government ratified the Lisbon Treaty without consulting their people.

      2. Juncker is the unelected ruler of the EU & therefore is your leader whether you like the fact or not.

      3.The EEC was the free trade area, the EU is a political union set up without asking anyone & in direct opposition to most Nations laws.

      Here is where the great EU lie started for us, other Nations have their own starting point.

    • avatar
      Arkadiusz

      Marco, could you present the article that has been broken against the EU or Polish constitution with adequate example please? By throwing accusations, i assume you have some knowledge in the subject you are talking about

    • avatar
      Arkadiusz

      PiS is not nationalist. They can be described as populist, but are not nationalistic. Only thing nationalistic about them is aversion to muslim immigration but let’s face it – it’s based in crime and social stats.

  7. avatar
    Jack

    Wtf are you talking about. Who is behind this group writing so many sh*t all the time. Kids for sure stupid kids

  8. avatar
    Apostolos

    The question itself is nonsense. The Polish government was elected by the people in free elections. Show some respect and get over it!

    • avatar
      Zorica

      Elections does not represent democracy per se.

    • avatar
      Apostolos

      Zorica Of course! Especially when we don’t like the results

  9. avatar
    Eggsy

    Is EU giving up in democracy and should learn from Poland?

    • avatar
      Eggsy

      Δεληγιάννης why

    • avatar
      Peter

      Nonsense, says the Greek, whose country has been destroyed by the European Union’s financial genius :D

    • avatar
      Eggsy

      Peter well, also they country did something by himself to reach that situation.

    • avatar
      Walerian

      News for You, they are in minority

    • avatar
      Jack

      Maybe that is why they are worried.
      But of course most flies can not be wrong, sh*t taste good.

    • avatar
      Piotrek

      Walerian where is that assumption coming from?

    • avatar
      Walerian

      Piotrek public opinion polls?

    • avatar
      Piotrek

      Walerian 1. It is really hard to tell who has the majority in that matter. People don’t need to vote for anyone to be satisfied or dissatisfied with the level of democracy. The amount of people taking part in the polls is also not sufficient, same as the amount of voting people.
      2. Even if. http://www.polskatimes.pl/fakty/polityka/a/kantar-public-demokracja-w-polsce-jest-zagrozona-sondaz,12314689/
      The poll says it is said to be in danger. First to be found on the internet.

    • avatar
      Walerian

      Let’s wait to the one and only poll that’s matter, elections

    • avatar
      Jack

      “Opinion poll says Poles believe democracy is threatened”
      Yeah, but if you ask them WHO poses that threat you won’t get a majority “PiS” answer, but an “EU” answer. So cut the bullsh*t, eh ?

    • avatar
      Elise

      Fait en 10 minutes

    • avatar
      Manon

      je te reconnais bien là, rapide et efficace, mais quel talent !

  10. avatar
    Jose

    They might be, but while big corporations still invest in the country, do they really care about the rule of the law and human rights ?

  11. avatar
    Mariusz

    It’s not what the overwhelming majority of Polish people think.
    Since it’s the MAJORITY, we can say that Polish people support democracy and have democratically decided that democracy in Poland is working just fine.

    • avatar
      Jack

      So Hitler’s Germany was also democratic? 🙄

  12. avatar
    Mariusz

    It’s not what the overwhelming majority of Polish people think.
    Since it’s the MAJORITY, we can say that Polish people support democracy and have democratically decided that democracy in Poland is working just fine.

  13. avatar
    Martin

    The EU is giving up on democracy, because it wants more money for its bureaucrats.

  14. avatar
    Piotr

    Dear Europe, don’t worry about Poland, we are pretty good. Take bigger care of mr Junker, he really need to go rehab

    • avatar
      Patrycja

      *really needs to go to rehab

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      Does not matter. English is world’s lingua Franca, not maternal language. Junker should get some rest and lay off those pineal glands

    • avatar
      Szymon

      Aż mi wstyd, bo tylko polskie cebule mają manię poprawiania błędów, które nie mają żadnego znaczenia w komunikacji. Wystarczy poczytać komentarze na zagranicznych stronach ;)

    • avatar
      Piotr

      Szymon i to brak “s” a Pani mogę odpowiedzieć, że mówię w 9 językach, nawet jeśli nie perfekcyjnie to się dogaduje. A pani Patrycja Matusiak, czym się może pochwalić oprócz poprawiania ludzi?
      Szymon and it’s no “s” and you can answer that I speak 9 languages, even if it doesn’t perfectly get along. And miss Patricia, what can she boast besides correcting people?

  15. avatar
    Piotr

    Dear Europe, don’t worry about Poland, we are pretty good. Take bigger care of mr Junker, he really need to go rehab

  16. avatar
    Joseph

    True democracy is tolerating others and allowing opposition and free press. Therefore Poland is turning away from democracy. If PiS truly were in the right they wouldn’t need to resort to dirty tricks to keep power. If they really had the backing of all the Poles they would be able to be reelected perpetually in an open democracy.

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      You have no idea, what is happening in Poland, don’t you?
      For 3 main tv stations in Poland 2 are anti-PiS And somehow nobody interupt them to work. Stop speaking about something you have no idea.

    • avatar
      Joseph

      Mateusz – dlaczego myslesz ze nie mam pomysł jaki jest w Polsce? I know all about the ‘reforms’ to the judicial system, the takeover of the state TV channels (TVPropaganda for example), the massive fines imposed on opposing media sources, and the number of copies of Gazeta Polska and Do Rzeczy in every shop. Mieszkam w Polsce i nie tylko czytam od BBC czy coś.

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Joseph ‘True democracy is tolerating’ of but not submitting to the minority view. When the minority rules its called a dictatorship, not a democracy. 8|

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      Joseph i know because you share this nonsense. Reforms of judical system are necessary because it is remain of communist system that is serving to frauds not people. PiS is running state TV what is quite understandable If they rule – don’t worry, you still have to big TV stations that are anti-PiS and they spread their lies 24/7. What fines? Those for breaking a law? I don’t see the problem. You really live in Poland? Why If we have ‚dictatorship’ problems?

    • avatar
      Joseph

      PiS’s ‘reforms’ – taking direct control of the judiciary- are a power-grab, they ensure that PiS can push through whatever they want- as they already are- and make sure they are the only party that can win any election. True democracy can be frustrating, as judges block things the ruling party want to push through, but an unchecked government is not a true democracy.

    • avatar
      Bartosz

      You can say what you want, and watch what you want. On computer and on TV screen. There is enough allowance for opposition to thrive but somehow nothing is happening.

    • avatar
      Patryk

      Zrób coś dla Polski chłopcze i z niej wyjedź. Najlepiej do Rosji jeśli Ci Europa nie pasuje
      Do something for polish boy and leave. Best to Russia if Europe doesn’t fit

    • avatar
      Kamil

      Ale rosja też leży w europie chlopcze (nie cała ) w dodatku nie jest w unii więc wiesz.
      But Russia also lies in Europe, boy (not all) in addition to the union, so you know.

  17. avatar
    Joseph

    I have a question for PiS-supporting Poles on here. Supposing a Marxist/Communist party had won and started to dismantle fundamental elements of democracy, remove judges, take over the media and push through many new laws based on their personal ideology, how would you all feel? Would you honestly sit back and allow them to do that without protest?

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      Hmmm.. Better words which can descripe this political party is national communist party. Rest political parties on polish scene is european comunistic parties, based on Antonio Gramsci’s comunism, more left thinking than Lenin and rest soviet comunism. Of course I hate everything related with communism.

    • avatar
      Joseph

      Mateusz PiS are a bizarre mix- quite far left in terms of social care- like 500+ while far right in terms of social issues like homosexuality and abortion. A new hybrid- but yes- something like the ‘National Socialist’ party of 1930s Germany. (They were democratically elected too of course- and representative of the Will of the majority)

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      You need to understand, that most of those ideas with destroying democracy is only for show. Previous party, courts are family-connected with communist-stalinism badits, high-ranked officers form special services . So this party cuts them off from the “manger” and now they’re complaning to EU, becouse their
      money is running away. Unfortunately, Polish people doesn’t understand what are socialism and new comunism and how bad this things are…

    • avatar
      Себастьян

      I as a communist would sit and laugh at the immense butthurt poles would get xdddddd

    • avatar
      Себастьян

      >welfare
      >”far left” xddd

      Oh boi u surely are one to not know a single thing about what you’re talking about, ain’t ya?

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      If I remenber good, Antonio Gramsci was removed from italian comunism party for far, far left thinking and views. Now in eurokolchoz his the master and a monument of thinking those elits.

    • avatar
      Joseph

      Себастьянpersonally as a Brit I consider child support a fairly moderate Left Wing policy, but plenty of Americans and some Poles consider it fairly far left.

    • avatar
      Joseph

      Mateusz this concept of a Stalinist-style ‘purge of undesirables’ is PiS’s excuse to fire people they don’t like. Communism collapsed nearly 30 years ago so anyone who held any really power back then would be pretty ancient now. Besides- have they done a bad job? Hasn’t Poland radically improved over the past 30 years? The last 10 when I have lived here have shown a massive transformation.

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      Joseph Right, but in Poland, authority never do a normal lustration act like in Czech Republic (there, up to 3 generation children of ex communist rulers can’t do nothing in public). You sholud check whose father, grandfather was in PRL (like officers of inteligence, high politicians of pzpr) from media and politics. And onces again, I don’t agree with pis and po/rest.

    • avatar
      Себастьян

      Communism never existed in the first place but socialism and in some places not all places that were ruled by a socialist party cuz in order to make socialism you need to first know what socialism is about and it is a simple economical thought: the means of production are in the hands of the workers, thus it means removing private property. This type of property was not succesfully removed in all warsaw pact’s states but only partially in the ussr with a shift from private to state ownership. Plenty of socialists critisize the ussr for not achieving socialism at all but only state capitalism a.k.a statism. Why communism never existed? Because in order for communism to exist you need to abolish both money and the state and those two institutions were never abolished in human history (some argue for a success in the Paris Commune but they were all murdered not long after this by the french state).
      Communism as a historical term ofc can be used to refer to the eastern block’s stance or other stuff but it is incorrect from an economical and political/ideological perspective.

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Joseph You question is idiotic simply because Fascism, Nazism and Communism are all Socialist movements which are far more similar to the EU than any democratically elected right of centre governments.

    • avatar
      Tomasz

      Ou judges were notoriously plastered togegher with the establishment. Eben previous govt supported reform way before they got elected.

    • avatar
      Krzysztof

      Joseph PiS > National socialism in 1930s Germany
      XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

    • avatar
      Joseph

      Krzysztof I know they are nowhere near yet. But they have borrowed various features from both the Nazis and Communists.

    • avatar
      Mateusz

      We E T E R N A L
      T E C H N O
      F A S C I S T
      now

    • avatar
      Ivan

      You are incorrect, Socialism is for retards, democracy is for people who value freedom & the right to achieve whatever they want in life..

    • avatar
      Jack

      F*ck both, go for monarchy
      let’s bring back the good ol’ days

    • avatar
      Dário

      Ivan So why are DEMOCRATIC elections, like Brexit, or more recently the presidential elections in Italy hindered and rendered as ‘undemocratic’? Is it only democratic when their interests are looked after, rather than the ‘populist’ majority?

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Dário They are only viewed as undemocratic by ‘the losers’. Clearly that would be you comrade 8|

  18. avatar
    Jeff

    Poles vote for PIS because last (pro UE)government sold out everything to german companies. In 2015 70% of Polands economy was on german hands,they where german puppets like most of leftists govs in Europe. But PIS also is somebodys puppet. They do all that USA wants

  19. avatar
    Dário

    ‘Democracy’ which we see today are ‘Liberal Democracies’ and they are only seen as valid when a Liberal is voted into leadership. Whenever a ‘populist’ is voted, BY THE MAJORITY, then the neo-Liberal organizations will fight tooth and nail to render the election as ‘fraudulent’. Thus, if democracy is only in the favor of the minority, it is not a democracy. Poland is doing something right, since it is not experiencing all the crime as a result from the cultural enrichment which France, Spain, and the U.K. are experiencing. I have never felt safer in my life then when I walk in the streets of Poland.

  20. avatar
    EU Reform- Proactive

    No, why- because the EUI worries?

    As long as the Poles play their games according to THEIR Constitutional rule book- no problem! It remains a Polish competence. The EU needs to stay away and spend overtime on their “unfinished one”!

    For the present “minority” (opposition) to cry foul and maybe plead with the regulatory EU to “intervene” (how?) in Polish internal matters highlights the dangers of the supra mighty EU obtaining too much power & EU Army! Like former USSR interventions?

    JCJuncker (or anyone else after his demise) might one day just use it- to enforce “EU regulatory law & order”. Any guarantee it can never happen?

    Therefore- never ever an EU army for these overambitious supra politicians! Please, all pay the 2% to NATO- which Poland does! Pay up or shut up- pasta!

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-11/trump-bump-or-putin-push-nato-s-defense-budget-battle-in-charts

    In all fairness one must consider that the past and present motivations for joining today’s EU (EWG, EFTA, ECC etc.) has/is changed. The evidence can by found in the ongoing Treaty changes & enlargement process.

    If someone nowadays says that (future) candidates only join (only “poor” ones left- for “comparative advantage”) because of “suspiciously” financial reasons only- can be true & quite believable.

    Who cares about “European” culture within the enlarged EU? Turkey, the Middle East etc.?Just pc talk! As long as the “money” is right- the EU is loved!

    Because for some “the LACK of money is the root of all evil”- in contrast to the previous “theme”- “the money is the root of all (EU) evil”!

    More care & caution would require a multi speed, pick & choose Union of the willing. Not more brutal regulatory EU or/and an EU army.

  21. avatar
    Michelle

    Democracy isnt the ideology of liberalism or conservatism, but the rite to choose either or another..

    Totalitarianism is the force of 1 ideology and can never be confused with Democracy by playing with words and asking stupid questions that insinuate that ppl or nations are undemocratic because their choices are different to yours

  22. avatar
    Kamila

    Poland is giving up in everything :/ taxes, tolerance for sexual minorities, education etc.

  23. avatar
    Tomasz

    No – we’re just voting in a way you don’t like. We’re the democracy.

  24. avatar
    André

    No. i live in poland this beatifull country. I don’t fell any opression for the people. In other countries i cant say the same because the goverment dont make what people want and this is not the case of Poland

    • avatar
      Sebastian

      The oppression NEVER happens immediately. It creeps up upon you like a tiger. Then you are dead. Kaczynski must go away immediately.

  25. avatar
    Joseph

    The major problem is that most people- in the UK and USA too- misunderstand what true democracy is. It is not simply having a vote every 4 or 5 years and then in between however wins doing anything they please. That is a one-party state, an elected dictatorship. True democracy is having debates with the opposition, having an independent judiciary who block unconstitutional changes and having the freedom to express every viewpoint. This is frustrating for the supporters of the ruling party because it slows and even stops some of the things they want to do. While that may seem ‘undemocratic’ as the ruling party were elected by a majority, it means that decisions are made carefully considering the differing viewpoints throughout the country.

  26. avatar
    Jack

    Well, just because a government is elected democratically doesn’t mean it cannot act undemocratically – and the Polish one went full NSDAP. The guys from Law and Justice go so far as to not only disobey the EU Constitution, but even the Polish one, claiming that taking care of what they deem to be “just” is more important than the most important piece of legislature in any country. Also, they consider the previous 25 years of left-wingers (especially the Civic Platform) to be a blow and disgrace to Poland and Poles (or, more specifically, hetero catholic ones) because the left is equal to them with “the Commies”, a term which has now become extremely pejorative and widely used in Poland against the political opposition. The comparison of with NSDAP is not a stretch by any means, as they often incorporate strong nationalism and glittering generalities into their narrative. The only difference is, the Jews are not the sole group responsible for everything bad that’s happened to Poland, including the protests against antidemocracy. In the Law and Justice’s Poland, everyone outside of the current government is an enemy and/or a scapegoat. They are constantly at war with someone, and that can lead to their failure in the upcoming election. If, of course, the opposition will present a strong, united narrative during the campaign instead of continuing to seem like a band of incompetent and ununified fools, a thing which has actually led LaJ to be elected in the first place.

    • avatar
      Jack

      Also not to mention that the whole f*cking country is strongly divided on each matter and everyone is at war with each other since the Smolensk crash of 2010.

    • avatar
      randomguy2018

      Comparing a largely pagan/nordic/aryanist mass murdering imperialistic nazi germany (at least its leaders) from WW2 to Catholic country is just ridiculous stretch.
      Poland fought against Nazis, while certain elites in West Europe welcomed them.
      And now try to lecture Eastern Europe/Central Europe again?!

    • avatar
      EU Reform- Proactive

      Corrections please…………”disobey the EU Constitution”?
      Why parade the 2004/05 failed consolidation attempt as EU Constitution?

      It remains unratified = intend only = another (Lisbon) Treaty= no Constitution.

      Even the Court of Justice of the European Communities said it contains some “important elements” what a “Constitution” is/should be.

      Some links (for non Poles) to better understand the origins of the Polish internal discourse & significance of the “Smolensk crash of 2010”- referred to above.

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/07/smolensk-plane-crash-lech-kaczynski-poland-russia

      https://www.dw.com/en/smolensk-plane-crash-divides-poland-to-this-day/a-38373842

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Tusk

  27. avatar
    Bernard

    I don’t see any evidence of it. We must stop crying wolf every time something we don’t like happens, or else when real threats appear and we warn about them, we won’t be taken seriously.

  28. avatar
    catherine benning

    Is Poland giving up on democracy?

    The very opposite is taking place in Poland. The will of the people is being respected. And those in power there have the courage to do it, whilst being threatened by manic Globalist fanatics intent on forcing cultural change in Europe and the West.

    The Polish are fortunate to have a listening group in power.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5BYhVSofvs

    The question here should be, why does the EU want to destroy the cultural society of European peoples? Especially when the culture they are importing, in their millions, is unable to function in a democratic, forward looking, exceptional environment. And, such an invasion is showing to be detrimental to the welfare of the people they are claiming to protect.

    What must be addressed is, can a patient arriving at hospital in Europe and the UK, or any other medical practice therein, and find a person unreliable as a doctor placed in care of their health, refuse to be treated by him/her? Can they refuse the treatment offered without suffering ostracism and abuse? Or, without being called racist, when they decide not to allow such a proven loser to treat them for fear of death if they do. Not in the UK you can’t. So, you are forced to submit to inhuman behaviour should you want to stay alive or have a good chance of doing so. Here are a few links.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/hadiza-bawagarba-junior-doctor-death-boy-jack-adcock-manslaughter-gross-negligence-gmc-high-court-a8281386.html

    This is a frequent occurrence in the UK.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dr-vaishnavy-laxman-baby-decapitated-wrong-delivery-method-ninewells-hospital-dundee-latest-a8384506.html

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10349596

    Would you want any of them as your medic?

  29. avatar
    Ludwig

    after hundreds of years of dictatorship government it’s not easy to accept and to live in democratic systems

  30. avatar
    randomguy2018

    Stop the liberal “order”. Many elites dont understand how much damage they doing.
    Much of the world doesn’t want this “liberal” “democracy”, and some politician and billionaires is not understanding it and pretends to speak for Europe.
    (Liberal democracy being what the eu calls democracy). but democracy is will of people in a country, the majority.
    Stop this madness eunuchs. Less refugees, less immigration, more respect to Europeans. And perhaps some of the people in power should stop hiding their agendas behind closed doors.

  31. avatar
    Ciprian

    Just a few corrections on what Ivan says:

    “1. Like other Nations a pro EU Polish government ratified the Lisbon Treaty without consulting their people.”
    Actually, it was the Parliament that ratified the Lisbon Treaty, not the Government. Vote passed by a 2/3 majority – very wide. And what is the Parliament? Representatives of the people, no?

    “2. Juncker is the unelected ruler of the EU & therefore is your leader whether you like the fact or not.”
    First of all Junker has been proposed by the European Council and approved by the EU Parliament. The Council is made of all heads of member states and the Parliament is made out of member state politicians elected in their respective countries. So it is factual incorrect to say Junker is unelected, he is.
    Second, Junker is not the ruler of the EU; while the term “ruler” is loaded (who is *your* ruler, for example?), if there is a head of the EU, that would be Donald Tusk, the president of the Council.

    “3.The EEC was the free trade area, the EU is a political union set up without asking anyone & in direct opposition to most Nations laws.”
    This is just factually incorrect and a ridiculous claim: the history of the EU is a long list of heavy negotiations between political leaders of member states AND public consultations in various forms.

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