Where now for Catalonia? Following the dramatic events of 2017, when Catalonia held an independence referendum (which was declared illegal by the Constitutional Court of Spain and forcefully disrupted by Spanish police), what will 2018 bring? Has Catalan independence been thwarted by the arrest (or exile) of pro-independence political leaders?

Regional elections in December produced a majority for pro-independence parties (though the largest single party in the regional parliament is the anti-secession Citizens party). Nevertheless, independence seems like an unlikely prospect this year.

Since the December elections, several Catalan political and civic leaders have been languishing in pre-trial detention. They stand accused of rebellion or sedition, facing jail terms of up to 30 years. The former Catalan President, Carles Puigdemont, was quickly deposed by the central government and fled into self-imposed exile, and is currently facing extradition back to Spain from Germany.

What do our readers think? We had a comment sent in by Jaume, who argues: “Of course Catalonia should be independent. Catalan language and culture is being damaged seriously by Spanish nationalists.”

Should Catalonia be independent? We asked Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) from all sides of the political spectrum to stake out their positions on this question, and it’s up to YOU to vote for the policies you favour. See what the different MEPs have to say, then vote at the bottom of this debate for the one you most agree with! Take part in the vote below and tell us who you support in the European Parliament!

Radical Left
Gabriele Zimmer (GUE-NGL), Chair of the GUE-NGL, Member of the European Parliament:

Greens
Margrete Auken (Group of the Greens), Member of the European Parliament:

Liberal Democrats
Renate Weber (ALDE), Member of the European Parliament:

Centre Right
Frank Engel (EPP), Member of the European Parliament:

Conservatives
Helga Stevens (ECR), Member of the European Parliament:

Eurosceptics
Rolandas Paksas (EFDD), Vice-Chair of the EFDD Group, Member of the European Parliament:

The independence of Catalonia cannot and should not be questioned. It is only a matter of time before the right of self-determination of the Catalan nation is fully realised. Today, the matter of an independent Catalan Republic is no longer a matter of the Madrid government. It is a serious challenge for the whole family of European nations and for EU values – democracy, citizens’ rights, and justice.

Curious to know more about Catalonia and independence? We’ve put together some facts and figures in the infographic below (click for a bigger version).

IMAGE CREDITS: (c) / BigStock – nito
With the support of:

 



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503 comments Post a commentcomment


  1. avatar
    Lonzo

    No, but spain should be a republic and not a monarchy

    • avatar
      Diego

      Spain having to go back to a republic is so obvious that it doesn’t even diserve to be debated

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      The Bourbons should leave Spain from Cartagena back again. But this time, instead of fascist Italy, he may take refuge in Saudi Arabia or Morocco…

      We don’t need a dynasty chosen by Franco.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      Spain should be split up into lesser Spain and Catalunya – 2 separate states with the latter being a republic.

  2. avatar
    Julia

    If the Catalonian people want it and voted for it-yes. Tough luck to Spain.

    • avatar
      Phil

      1. Industrialization comes to Spain.
      2. The Central Government decides that Catalonia and Madrid are the top priorities for infrastructure expansion.
      3. 150 years in, it’s time for Catalonia and Madrid, now rich, fully industrialized regions, to support the rest of the country’s growth.
      4. You are personally okay with Catalonia going forward into what is essentially a money scam. They got the country’s investment and now they want to leave with it.

      This is without considering that only 2 million out of 7.5 are “real” Catalonians (the other 5.5 are 1-4th generation immigrants who naturally moved there since industrialization became more prominent).

      This is probably also not considering that Spain is a 7-nation country, like Yugoslavia. This is not 1 big nation repressing 1 small nation. This is 1 small nation telling the other 6 small, sister nations to **** off, crash and burn.

      Dig a little deeper before making assumptions. Not every accusation, done by every party ever, is righteous.

    • avatar
      JM

      You see the thing is that despite all the noise made by the independentists truth is that there are less than 50% of Catalans who want to become an independent state. And that has been proven by the last elections where the independentist votes amounted to 47%. Besides in a state of law not only voting is a must; the fact of respecting the laws is also compulsory.

    • avatar
      Julia

      Most democratic elections results are like that. The people voted yes. Same as Brexit where the people voted No. Only the peoples votes that serve the political agenda are respected-like Brexit. Most of the clever laws that are written serve those that write them, like legal tax evasion laws etc.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Julia
      Well said Julia!

      It is clear that Catalunya is sick and tired of Spain and its historic and frequent propensity towards dictatorial expression.

  3. avatar
    Spyros

    The question is whether catalans should have the freedom to chose

    • avatar
      Ricardo

      Ahhhh, a true Democrat… Gotta love’em…

    • avatar
      Costel

      and the Constitution of Spain ? how about that mate…have you checked it lately ?

    • avatar
      Mark

      Constitutions can and do change. There’s no particular reason why a legal referendum can’t be put in place except that the government of spain doesn’t want one

    • avatar
      Spyros

      laws should serve people, not the other way around

    • avatar
      Marcio

      Ok let’s vote all the country for change it, not 30% of one community can do it. If we want change our Constitution, we all have the same right, no one else has more right than others to force the majority accept its decision. If we talk about democracy Catalans has no more rights than a Valencian, Andalusian or other Spanish citizen, even more than half of Catalans who don’t want separate themselves from Spain. If it’s done here in Catalonia it should be done in every European country with a bilingual population. We talk about past centuries, it’s means change the sovereignty of many countries, and some flanders citizens, and some Italians would be Spanish by the same rules. Also includes indians and Pakistanis being British, Algerians and moroccans being frenches, and so on.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Costel Stanciu Screw the Spanish constitution. Article 2, which is the one that matters here (“The indisoluble unity of Spain”) was written by the army.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Mark Yes, and it must mean something that the Spanish constitution has never been amended resulting from public debate (only a couple of minor changes decided by establishment politicians behind closed doors, I won’t get into that), but you really need to bear in mind that this constitution was a deal that was cut between the francoist establishment and the very weak democratic opposition shortly after the dictator’s death. It is a straitjacked not only for Catalonia, but for the whole of Spain.

    • avatar
      Marcos

      Jordi
      “Costel Stanciu Screw the Spanish constitution. Article 2, which is the one that matters here (“The indisoluble unity of Spain”) was written by the army.”
      And it did also write the German Constitution (which does not allow secession). And the French Constitution, and every other Constitution in the world.
      Actually, the army also wrote the Interpretation of the right of secession used in the United Nations.
      Catalonian independence doesn’t even get half the Catalonian voting population behind it.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Costel
      The mickey-mouse constitution of Spain denies the Catalans the right to self-determination. This is in direct contravention of UN articles; refer to the following for elucidation:

      http://www.unpo.org/article/4957

      PS: Both France and Germany similarly have constitutions that contravene this basic human right.

  4. avatar
    Ivan

    Why did you ask MEP’s it’s not like they have any democratic legitimacy.

    • avatar
      Uli

      so why did you listen to farage?

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Uli Because he wanted to get us out of the pointless EU obviously. Not in the EU = No MEP’s. It’s not rocket science.

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Debating Europe Why not ? after we have finally left pointless EU next year you can keep some of the pro EU fanatical ones if you want, we have no use for them :)

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Debating Europe It could be argued though that UKIP have a role to play in next years MEP election by supporting & promoting anti EU parties of other Nations, We do have a history of fighting repressive regimes after all.

      As tax payers who are paying for the European Parliament we should get our money’s worth (No taxation without representation), when we stop paying then I really couldn’t give a dam what Brit’s do in Brussels/Strasbourg. I did find it amusing that Macron was saying how proud he was to be speaking to the European Parliament in Strasbourg at the same time the European Parliament is trying to dump Strasbourg to save some cash because of the fall in revenue it’s facing after we stop funding it.

    • avatar
      Uli

      Ivan Burrows I still dont see the point of being a MEP and fighting for the brexit. The EU parliament had nothing to do with the brexit… My point is rather, where farage took his legitimacy for fighting for the brexit? And where he got the legitimation to fight for brexit in the EU parliament, when it is according to you not democratic..It tells also a lot about your democratic understanding when “you have no use for [pro EU fanatics]”

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Uli They are not there fighting for Brexit, they are there to support fellow democrats in their fight to get their Nations out of the pointless EU & to keep our governments feet to the fire.

      Nobody was asked across any Nation in the EU if they wanted the European Parliament or its master the unelected European Commission but the fact is it’s there and we are paying for it. When we stop paying for it there will be no British MEP’s.

      ‘No “scutage” or “aid” may be levied in our kingdom without its general consent.

      Magna Carta Libertatum – 15 June 1215

    • avatar
      Debating Europe

      Ivan Burrows Question for you – if Farage thinks being an MEP is pointless, why hasn’t he resigned his seat, given he’s achieved his stated objective?

    • avatar
      Debating Europe

      Could it be that he feels obliged to fulfill the mandate he was democratically elected to carry out?

    • avatar
      EU Reform- Proactive

      Hello fellows!

      I rise on a point of order: please be reminded that you ALL need to stick to the given “subject” or the DE moderators will close this debate!

  5. avatar
    Joaquim

    Since 1640 they are not independent cause in 1640 Castilla send troops to Catalonia instead of sending to Portugal. And the result was Portugal getting back their independence and Catalonia staid under the hands of Castilla. Spain doesn’t exist is Castilla power that rules over the other regions.

    • avatar
      Ricardo

      This is the problem. Spain should be a federation. This process should be started back in 1975-78 at the democratic transition. But the Franco followers are every powerful in Spain. So, for me, Catalonia should have the independence unless the government in Madrid starts negotiations for federation, for goodness of European Union.

    • avatar
      Phil

      Spain is already a federation in everything except for its name.

    • avatar
      Pau

      Phil González not true

    • avatar
      Pedro

      Ok. So we copy the German model? Both the institutions and the share of competencies and money? Are you sure?

    • avatar
      JM

      Ricardo Costa Silva man Spain is a federal state. Not in its name but Catalonia has more powers and autonomy as it is now than if it were part of Germany, Switzerland or the USA. And besides they complain about article 155 which means suspending the autonomy yet it is the same mechanism of federal coertion that appears in article 37 of Bonn Law.

    • avatar
      Joaquim

      Its very easy just do a referendum in every regions of Spain and will see if Spain real exists. What exist is followers of Franco everywhere (demented people with no brains at all thats why PP is in power unfortunately) trying to convince us that Spain its real. And this is so true that in the after the 25 of April of 1974 Franco army was near the borders of Portugal in a try to invades us. And the bourbons were living and drink cocktails in Cascais, Portugal when his own people were being slaughter in Franco civil war). That are the ones in power in spain today.

  6. avatar
    Oriol

    Should catalonia be independent? It is up to catalans… if they want. Why not?

    • avatar
      Memnon

      They dont want the referéndum was made by “some” Catalans.
      Actualy things are close to 50/50% but now is more antiindependentist than proinpendentist.
      The problem is that this is changing as the school tell lies and educate young people to independentism. People who are not independentist doesn’t dare to talk about their ideas because they are called fascist and they are send to ostracism. I have seen this in people around me.
      For Catalonia independendence, first catalonia need to want independence. Now is just a group of people imposing their ideas and calling it democracy ( they got ways to not give rigth to the ones who doesn’t agree as saying that they are not true Catalans but emigrants from Spain , even when they are from Catalonia from generations)

    • avatar
      Daniela

      I think everybody misses one point: neither the “illegal”referendum nor the “imposed”election were really democratic, in the sense that there was “dirty and bad play”, there was no campaign in equal and impartial conditions for the elections, nor for referendum. I suspect that if there were real democratic elctions or referendum, without fear or manipilations, it could easily be that the independence achieve much more votes. I would love to see a democratic Spanish State, but the Social Media don’t even inform their own people acurately, that why there are so many people against free decisions. My opinion, of course.

    • avatar
      Oriol

      ….. EU issue as well

    • avatar
      Pedro

      Yes. It has the potential to destroy the EU. Europe is full of overlapping nations. In the name of peace: no.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      If you look at history war is what you get when people are denied self-determination..

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Anyway, it’s a Spanish and a European issue. And it is for the Catalans to decide.

    • avatar
      Victor Perez

      When one state doen’t allow a people/nation/ethnic group to be free, or repress it, or violate the human rights or the UN political rights (self-determination), that is not “an internal matter” of that state anymore. It’s 300 years since Catalans should be a “European” matter, but the main European powers historically sacrificed the catalan people many times for their interestests, in the hands of Spain. But 21th century is not the time of imperialism or colonialism anymore. Spain doen not have any right to keep colonial domains by force againts the will of their inhabitants, while the Catalans have their right to choose freely their political future, and they already chose 4 times their independent republic. Now it’s time just to respect them and let them be free.

  7. avatar
    Alejandro

    The following pro-independence argument listed in your factsheet is just plainly false: A clear majority of Catalans does NOT support independence (48% supported pro-independence parties in the last election). The last poll published by the Catalan administration shows a support of 40% of citizens for the independence. (https://catalunyadiari.com/politica/lultima-enquesta-del-ceo-evidencia-caiguada-del-408-lindependentisme)
    For the sake of clarity in the debate, please do not use false data.
    Thank you,

    • avatar
      Ignasi

      What about the Silent Majority? Where were they in the last election? And being part of Spain since 15th century?

      I would encourage people to read international newspapers on what happened and let them make up their mind when fully informed. Then we can discuss everything from a constructive point of view rather than fight.

    • avatar
      Debating Europe

      Hi Alejandro,

      The infographic presents the most-common arguments from each side of the debate. Voters in the October 2017 referendum were directly asked whether or not they support the region becoming independent. In the December 2017 regional elections, the electorate was not directly voting on the question on independence, but were rather voting for political parties whose policies are pro-independence or pro-unionist. Obviously, independence was at the forefront of most voters’ minds (and was doubtless responsible for the high turnout). Nevertheless, we cannot be certain that independence was definitely the most salient reason that voters chose one representative over another.

      Now, there are many problems with using the referendum as a measure of support for independence. Turnout was below 50%, many pro-unionist voters boycotted the process, and the vote was severely disrupted to the point of calling into question the accuracy of the count. This is why, in the “Against” column, we mention the “silent majority” who are clearly either against independence or else do not hold a strong opinion.

    • avatar
      Javi

      Lets adopt a clear rules of consecuences if voting yes or not and accepting it by spain and lets see the resoults. May be surprised.. of course for the yes. Would you voted yes knowing the repression from spain? Of course a lot of people would say no under pression. It is call the law of painfull and punishment.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Debating Europe
      Did you mention that Catalans were afraid to vote given the jack-booted, violent Spanish police and too the irascible and undemocratic Spanish government?

  8. avatar
    Guillem

    Depends on whether the Catalan citizens actually vote and want though. A referendum ought to be held (although Spain doesn’t like the idea) and the results upheld. The opinion of some “European MPs” means jackshit.

    • avatar
      Memnon

      As Spanish from la-mancha I think shall be a referendum ( there is no way independence would win becausecatalans doesn’t want it) but outside ideas are important because ideas are so opposed and hated each other that we look for other people to validate our positions. I don’t know if this is good or bad, but maybe could help that we sit on a table and discuss the stuff instead of just atavkong each other . There is no way yo communicate this far. Even when Catalans say it, they doesn’t realy mean, they only want the total acceptation of their ideas. But I can’t talk to my side if we are open to talk but we have been given power to then since 75 every time every time more and more

    • avatar
      Mada

      Ja es va fer referèndum i va guanyar el si

    • avatar
      Guillem

      No cal pas que m’ho expliquis, no només vaig votar sinó que vaig dormir en un colegi electoral per evitar-ne el tancament.

      Ara bé, per a legitimar la independència cal una votació on hom pugui votar sense incidents, amb tots els colegis oberts i sense por a que la policia t’esberli el cap.

  9. avatar
    Miki

    well, first we should answer the question, wants catalonia be independent?. Despite the noise, there is no pro secession majority.

    • avatar
      Epom

      5 years ago i agree.. Today… Not clear

    • avatar
      Miki

      About what?

    • avatar
      Pau

      How do you know there is not a majority?

    • avatar
      Pedro

      Independentists presented last elections and the ones before as the moment to know Catalonians’ will. And the majority of Spanish people with a right to vote in Catalonia (there is no Catalonian “people” in any administrative sense) voted for parties that, in a referendum, would support the NO to independence. If you play the same game forever you may get ONE yes against years of NOs. Would that mean the immediate need to break apart this country? Obviously, no.

    • avatar
      JM

      Pau Chi because the last elections showed that independentist votes are somewhere between 42% and 47%. It is clear that it is quite a big number of people, yet it is also clear that there is no majority of Catalans who want independence.

    • avatar
      Franc

      An Autonomic Elections may have nothing to do with a Independence Referendum. It’s you yourself who’s making this assumption

    • avatar
      angeles alvarez quintana

      illegal referendum where you vote up to 4 times per person, with a false census and with more votes than inhabitants in some towns

  10. avatar
    Jose

    For me, it’s the same if Catalonia became in independent state or not. But, what is really, really good is all Europe have known that Spain is a not a democratic state.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Jose
      Well said.

      Spain is clearly NOT a good democratic state. Its legal system utilised by the likes of France and Italy is prone to corruption, unaccountability and violent assaults on democracy.

      This same hyper-floored system underpins the corrupt, unaccountable and undemocratic EU.

    • avatar
      Bittor

      It is not the opinion of the Economist Intelligence unit Democracy Index, where Spain is evaluated as one of the most democratic countries, higher than USA, France or Belgium

  11. avatar
    Eloy

    The main division is not between Spain and Catalonia (this is a simple approach in international media). The real conflict is between catalans themselves. It is not that easy like removing the Spanish nationality to more than a half of catalans that want to be Spanish.

    • avatar
      Pedro

      In fact, every poll shows that the great majority of people in Catalonia feel both Spanish and Catalonian.

    • avatar
      Mada

      Pedro Abellán Artacho eso no es cierto. La mayoria quiere independencia. De hecho el 21D volvimos a ganar. De hecho gobierna en cataluña los del si a la republica. Quedas en evidencia

    • avatar
      Ramón

      In englisssshhh Mada, in englissshhhh!!! You are both catalonian and eurpean person, do not sepak in spanissshhhhh!!!!😂

  12. avatar
    Luis

    Its not only a regional case ,not only can vote catalanes on that question,all spanish may vote to decide because Spain its a full democracy ,catalán separatists are only a part of Cataluña ,have not majority ,less than 50%,so far for a qualified majority of 2/3

    • avatar
      Víctor

      Claro, pq como es sabido los Referèndums se ganan por un 75%. Los 23 q hablas, hablas de una mayoria cualificada en todo el Estado, no sólo en Catalunya. Mas del 50% de independentistas no hay aún, se quedan en un pequeñissimo 46-48%. En cambio la mayoria por el derecho a decidir era muchissimo mas mayoritaria. Y no sabía que para contar gente a favor o en contra, no se contaba en un Referéndum sino en los resultados de los partidos mayoritarios, atribuyendote de facto, todos los.votos residuales de partidos indefinidos en ese aspecto.

    • avatar
      Marcio

      Víctor No, pero hay Una ley que no lo permite y esa no se puede ignorar. Estoy de acuerdo que esta ley se puede e incluso se debería cambiar, pero hay que cambiarla primero, y después ir a por el referéndum. El problema es que se impuso la tesis de una minoría sobre la mayoría, ignorando las reglas aprobada por todos, incluyendo está minoría que ahora impone sus tesis a los demás. Eso se llama en cualquier país, golpe de estado, es decir un grupo minoritario se alza sobre la ley para ocupar el poder e imponer su régimen. Una vez hecho eso, sí esa gente no cumple las reglas, quién garantizará que en una supuesta Cataluña independiente no volverán a hacerlo cada vez que les de la gana. Es que los catalanes no lo ven. Si hacen eso al Estado español, quién les garantizará que no lo harán cuando dirijan la Comunidad como un país independiente? Sin que haya un estado más fuerte que los impida?

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      No hay otra forma de contar Víctor ,no hubo un referéndum ,hubo una pantomima en donde se voto donde se quiso y las veces que se quiso ,bien creo que el 1.5 millones de votantes entre Cs y PP fijo que no quieren la independencia,esos seguro ,otros tantos del PSC,mi caso ,y alguno incluso por que no de Podemos ,aunque de eso dudo algo mas pero alguno habrá,no puede haber independencia porque los catalanes no queremos y porque tampoco existe ningún derecho heredado a decidir ,por cierto ,ya puestos,pelea de bar lo de Altsasua?? Vengaaaaa,se tiraron 1 docena a por dos agentes de descanso con sus parejas ,que valientes los niños ,ahora resulta que ETA era una organización que vendía lotería no te jode ,mismo camino llevamos en Cataluña con los CDR,la nueva kale borroka
      Todos los nacionalismos,todos están ya inventados ,y todos ,todos parten de la base que partía Hitler allá por el 32,todos y cada uno de ellos,no entiendo que la izquierda se posicione de ese lado ,ya si me dices que PNV y CIU son de izquierdas es cuando….

    • avatar
      Daniela

      Please in English! If you answer in Spanish, you excluse all the other European Countries to take part in this discussion!

  13. avatar
    Javier

    As Spanish, why not? but let be realistic, they have to pay back all what theyve received. Fair deal.

    • avatar
      Christian

      Catalunya, pays to Madrid about 16.000.000.000 of euros each year. That is known as “dèficit fiscal” and is one of the problems to resolve. Is not the only, but one more reason for more than 2 milion people of Catalunya that want to be free!!

    • avatar
      Pau

      Javi, as simple as that: each year Catalan contributions to the budget are higher than what it receives back. As such, how can you say Catalonia stills owns money to Spain?

    • avatar
      Costel

      sorry…but are you a little “hurt in the head?” because all that catalunya produces comes from the Spanish ppl, goverment and european markets, so, give back all the industry all the buldings all the money the tourists spent in catalunya..and then we can talk about catalunya as a country.

    • avatar
      Javier

      Costel si quieres decir tocado de la cabeza dimelo en español porque en ingles ‘hurt in the head’ has no sense

    • avatar
      Javier

      You want Independence? you pay for it. as simple as that. Like the UK with the EU!!

    • avatar
      Javier

      Christian AC 2 million out of 8?? Is that fair? Is that democratic???..I dont think so..

    • avatar
      Luis

      Acaso pensáis que la independencia es gratis ?? 60000 millones va a pagar UK por irse ,ahora las fronteras y aranceles ,y el 70% de la manufactura catalana al demonio ,pues a quien mas vende es al resto de España ,y claro España iba a dejar de forma amistosa el tema sin aduanas ni nada……seria la ruina catalana ,un corralito ,y sin posibilidad de buscar financiación externa ,aparte de la parte de la deuda española que le tocase claro

    • avatar
      Luis

      Por cierto en ingles seria algo así como “insane in the mainbrain” ,grandes Cipress Hill,jejejeje

    • avatar
      Jess

      You mean the same money that the region pays off AKA taxes? Where do you think the government gets money? It’s from regions with economic activities and foreign investments. Sure smarty pants. Maybe its spain who owe catalunya

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Javier
      In that case, Spain should pay back ALL that the UK has subsidised it for the last few decades!

  14. avatar
    Fuco

    They should have the right to choose and in any case they need Europe to back them up in order to overcome the clearly undemocratic turn of the Spanish institutions.

  15. avatar
    Quiterio

    It happens always, during the moments of a crisis, that suddenly your many hidden enemies will appear with bull***t and detracting . Fortunately the very few friends instead of it, would be very helpfull. Forgive but never forget.

  16. avatar
    Kianglek

    That’s for the Spanish government and the Catalan reprentatives to negotiate upon

    • avatar
      Pau

      Spain doesn’t wanna negotiate. There’s a blocked non-go status right now, that’s one of the reasons why the conflict is there on the spot…

    • avatar
      Pedro

      Your definition of a fair negotiation: await for a right wing party to come into power, make one single demand: the only thing that such a government cannot give. Complain: they don’t negotiate! Lol

    • avatar
      Luis

      Negociated what?? How they gonna independent??? Thats the only way to talk about for the separatists,there isnt anything more on the table

  17. avatar
    Antonio

    despite illegal and rigged referendum, most catalans feels spanish citizens, it’s a probbed fact. the most voted political group by catalans is a constitutionalist enforcement..

    Is absolutely impossible to supress our identities… WE CAN NOT SURRENDET TO NATIONALISTS… is our home too!… we fit all!… lets be civic!

    Help Europe, take care… next time can happen at your home

    • avatar
      Pau

      1) Illegal by arbitrary and judicial-biased Spain, but totally legal by the Catalan political and legal framework. Conflict of powers.
      2) How can you dare to say most Catalonians feel Spaniards? Spain didn’t allow the referendum, so no-one knows. However, if you take the number of votes that go to pro-independence parties, most of them feel more Catalan.
      3) Erase identities? Are you kidding us? The minority is the Catalan people within the oppressive majority that are the Spanish…

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Antonio
      LOL!

      Spanish nationalists cannot surrender to Catalan nationalists!!

      The Spanish constitution is floored – LET the Catalans practice the UN-right to self-determination, freely!

  18. avatar
    Maria&Ana Erasmus+

    It’s a human right to vote and to choose our own future, so cathalonian people should have the right to vote. Another thing is what Cathalonia brings to the EU.

  19. avatar
    Patrick

    It’s for catalunya to decide and no one else.

    • avatar
      Alberto

      Scotland was a Kingdom conquered by the English. But Catalonia was a part of the Kingdom of Aragon. Castile and Aragon reunited once with a dynastic union. Scotland must be free, Catalonia has no historical reasons to do it.

    • avatar
      Patrick

      I repeat: It’s for Catalunya to decide.

    • avatar
      Tasmin

      Alberto Scotland was not conquered by the English. James VI of Scotland became James 1st of England through inheritance of the throne and the two countries later became officially united under the Stuarts. This is basic stuff.

    • avatar
      Mònica

      Alberto Yuste Vela, zascaaaa!!! 😂 😂
      Catalonia was in association with Aragon, but never been its property. It had its own laws, institutions, constitution… Stop treating Catalonia as your possession, Spaniards…

    • avatar
      Luis

      Asociado con Aragón??? Jajajjajajajaja,eso es lo que enseña la Nova Historia Catalana en los coles ????jajajjajajaa,ostias que nivel Maribel ,me meo ,nunca fue asociado a nada ,fue parte del reino de Aragón ,fue un simple condado ,ay madre ,asociado dice ,que milagros hace la cal en los cerebros

    • avatar
      Carles

      Alberto Are you saying we should not be free? Are you aware of what you are saying.

  20. avatar
    Pere

    We need help! Spain is acting as in their fascist past. Now we have all the government in prison or exile. We defend our ballot boxes with our bodies against the spanish paramilitary police. Isn’t a joke or a fake new, that’s the truth.

    https://catmemoria.cat/poble-a-poble/

    • avatar
      Javi

      Vaya historieta te montaste en un momento difamando y alterando la realidad… Que nadie en Europa apoya esto !!!Quieren internacionalizar algo que le compete a España… Di que son unos golpistas… Y en la mayoría de Europa ustedes estarían ilegalizados… Ellos son franquista también??? PATÉTICO Y LAMENTABLE😉😉

    • avatar
      Pere

      Ya… pregunta a los jueces alemanes, suizos, escoceses, belgas. Verás que risas se echan.

    • avatar
      Pere

      Si no te crees lo que cuento mejor revisa tus fuentes de info. Más que nada porque hablas con alguien que lo ha vivido y lo vive, por tanto, tu opinas sin saber en absoluto.

    • avatar
      Pedro

      Eso: léete la sentencia de los jueces alemanes donde de deja claro que no hay ninguna persecución política.

      Ay, Pere. El argumento de “sólo siendo catalán se entiende” viola todo mínimo deliberativo, además de resultar cansino y chovinista.

    • avatar
      Mònica

      Pedro claro, por eso contradice el delito de rebelión y seguramente no extraditará por malversación tp….Pero oye, noo, somos 2,5 millones de catalanes inducidos a votar por la república catalana, como una panda de gremlins, por los políticos golpistas catalanes!!! Así nos describen las interlocutorias del Tribunal Supremo… 😂😂

    • avatar
      Pere

      I’m not spaniard. I’m catalan and european citizen too. And i won’t descrive that you are. Regards.

    • avatar
      Miki

      Pere,
      1- catulanya = not “we” —>”we” = less than half part of catalonia’s population.

      2-To be Against PP’s government is not the same that to be pro independence.

      3-To be Against nacionalism is definetly not to be fascist.

    • avatar
      Pere

      Miki you know the averages in a referendum? I only know the results of the october 1st. If you want i can explain it…

      90%yes
      10%no

      That’s all.

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Pedro Abellán Artacho Ser español 🇪🇸 no es nada facil:

      Acusas a los indepes de gastar 1.900.000€ de fondos públicos (resulta que lo han pagado de su bolsillo) para montar un referendum ‘ilegal’ (despenalizado el 21 de abril de 2005) y para ello te gastas 90.000.000€ en piolines y ves a saber cuanto más en fondos reservados para evitar el referendum (que no evitas).

      Luego les das medallas a los piolines y les subes el sueldo a cambio que no se quejen de las croquetas de los chinos que les das para cenar.

      En agradecimiento, los piolines mienten en todos los informes que le mandan a tus jueces (St Esteve de les Roures, etc), que a su vez, mienten en todas las acusaciones a indepes (cdr terrorismo, rebelión, malversación, odio, etc) y que esperan que les agradezcas las mentiras con ‘la paguita’.

      Encarcelas a todo cristo que queda por Catalunya. El que ha podido se ha largado, visto lo visto.

      Organizas una elecciones ‘legales’, pierdes (por 4a vez). Te cabreas y enchironas a los que quedan sueltos por ahí. No vaya a ser que formen un gobierno indepe.

      Destinas millones de € al ministerio de exteriores para intentar acallar el clamor internacional en favor de las aspiraciones democráticas de los catalanes (sin conseguirlo).

      Paseas medio CNI por europa (de manera ilegal) gastando 5.000.000€ más (que sepamos) persiguiendo a Puigdemont. Que, por cierto, lo persigues ¿por? ¿Qué delitos se le imputan? Ah! Es cierto, rebelión y malversación. Ya… ¿no habíamos quedado que el referendum era ilegal? ¿Porque no lo acusáis de eso?

      Todos los jueces de 🇧🇪🇩🇪🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇨🇭 aún se están recomponiendo después de leer la novela gótica que les ha mandado el Tribunal Supremo. Miran a sus gobiernos, los gobiernos les miran a ellos y aquí se termina el tema. Puigdemont y el gobierno legítimo seguirán en el exilio.

      Para contrarestar lo anterior el estado te habla de Cifuentes y te indignas… piensas que Ciudadanos lo arreglará y te vas al bar a hablar mal de los catalanes.

    • avatar
      David

      If your don’t want to stay in Catalunya-Spain, get out of Spain and leave us alone living our lives peacebly. Catalunya is not the possession of nobody but their whole citizens from the iberians to now!
      Many Catalans came from rich families of France

    • avatar
      Pere

      Iber… what? This is your democray? Go away. We win in the last 4 elections.

    • avatar
      David

      Pere …NO, NO WAS “CIUDADANOS”, ONLY WIN THE RIGHT TO CHOSE REGIONAL PRESIDENT!

    • avatar
      David

      in spain we have a constitution that belongs to all the country. the national sovereignty belongs to all citizens

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Paramilitares españoles ??? Madre mía si os dejaran hacíais bueno a Hitler ,vuestro odio a lo español y la manipulación que hacéis solo es comparable con el odio a los judíos ,paramilitares nada menos …guau….,España es un estado de derecho y Cataluña no tiene ningún derecho a decidir histórico y no esta contemplado en la Constitución tal ,decide España entera no una parte
      Ni si quiera sois mayoría en Cataluña ,donde los medios ,la educación ,las subvenciones ,la Policía…todo esta al servicio del separatismo ,los que no somos separatas pagamos bien nuestra ofensa a pesar de ser mayoría ,jamás ha sido un estado y jamás lo será

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Pere
      Spain: Once a fascist, always a fascist?

  21. avatar
    David

    …catalunya is spain. Every spaniard should decide about their whole country!

    • avatar
      Christian

      That is nonsense, every region who gained independence from their former state did it because the citizens of the region wanted so, not the citizens of the country.

    • avatar
      Pere

      Thank you Christian, every day we have to fight the same ‘arguments’ against the catalan’s selfdetermination right.

    • avatar
      David

      Pere If your don’t want to stay in Catalunya-Spain, get out of Spain and leave us alone living our lives peacebly. Catalunya is not the possession of nobody but their whole citizens from the iberians to now!
      Many Catalans came from rich families of France

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      David, that’s bull***t. You have no right over the land and let alone right to tell anyone who they belong in. Saying Catalonia belongs to Spain rather than to catalans is fully retarded.

    • avatar
      Fon

      Very democratic argument

    • avatar
      David

      …yes, yes very democratic and not dangerous, you see?

    • avatar
      Gloria

      Then the whole europe should have deceided about brexit? Please..

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @David
      That approach does NOT allow the Catalans the ‘RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION’!

  22. avatar
    Stefano

    At least they should be allowed to decide about that.

    • avatar
      Francisco

      And if Catalonia becomes independent, but after two or three years, some people from the city of Barcelona wants to become independent from Catalonia and join Spain, should they vote? But what if a neighbourhood from Barcelona doesn’t agree?
      The big problem of independence is to state what is the limit, until when can you split up a region or let people decide

    • avatar
      Molina

      They did, and they decide just 2M of 6-7M voted (less than 50%) hahahaha

  23. avatar
    João

    Everybody should be independent…

    • avatar
      José

      Down to the smallest little village.

    • avatar
      João

      Exactly! Decentralize the power, cause the power don’t care about our little village, the power not even know that our little village exists… Live local, buy local, work local, have fun local… Because we live local

    • avatar
      Cem

      João so if I enter your house I wont find anything that says Made in China?

    • avatar
      João

      You’re welcome! You will find a very few things, because I couldn’t find it made in EU… But I always make an effort to buy made in France, that’s where I live, and I make a lots of my own stuff too…

    • avatar
      Pedro

      Who are the Catalonian citizens? Can you give me a list? I only know Spanish people who live in Catalonia…

    • avatar
      Francesc

      Pedro the people who live in catalonia. Do I really need to explain that to someone?

    • avatar
      Mònica

      Nobody else! Only US, catalans!

    • avatar
      Pedro

      Francesc yes, you do. Not everyone living in Catalonia has the right to vote. For example: immigrants. Even if they are Europeans. However, if tomorrow I move to Catalonia from Madrid to live with my family there, I’ll have an immediate right to vote. Why? Because I’m Spanish.

      Of course, agreements can be made to hold a referendum. And then we can agree a census. Never unilaterally.

    • avatar
      Mada

      Pedro referendum avisado con antelacion. Observadores internacionales presentes. Y agresion a ciudadanos por votar. El 21d se volvio a votar y volvio a salir el mismo resultado . Respetar resultados. Si a la republica si a el molt honorable president Carles Puigdemont.

    • avatar
      Juan

      Mada, exacto, mismo resultado. Con menos de la mitad de votos los independentistas tienen mayoría en el parlamento catalán. Hay que cambiar el sistema electoral para que cada voto valga igual.

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Observadores pagados por los indepes, así dirán lo que convenga, también estaban avisados de que era ilegal, entonces a que vas?

    • avatar
      Maria

      Pedro yo no puedo votar en Madrid ? Porque pueden votar los de Madrid en Cataluña?

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Maria quien te ha dicho que no se pueda votar en Madrid? Aquí lo estamos decidiendo asi por x motivos. Pero igual de libres somos. No?

    • avatar
      Mònica

      Arturo se inventaron qué? Unos cuantos de miles de votos menos que el 21D, (en dónde votó el 83% del censo catalán) , controlado por el 155?
      Ignoras la verdad. Pero no me extraña, en tu país escasean los medios de información no manipulados.
      Pero hay Internet… Hace falta intelecto…

  24. avatar
    Chi

    No. Catalonia s plea for independence is based on egoism and economic reasons. Moreover it does not make sense when we are trying to unify Europe in this day and age

    • avatar
      Jaume

      Independece is a need of the catalan people because of the catalonophoby of the Spanish right wing, inheritance of Franco

    • avatar
      Cem

      Jaume nope. Just childish behaviour of uneducated ideologists.

    • avatar
      Jaume

      Yes, thats why the half of the country wants to get out from Spain, because they are stupid XD. Super rational point

    • avatar
      Eva

      Ale, que ya te has echado la foto, no sabéis dialogar sin insultar…y luego resulta que somos nosotros los que somos catalanofobicos!! Tan psicopático el tema….en fin

    • avatar
      Christian

      Actually is todays europe an independent catalonia makes more sense. Or at least it should. The only reason why europe would never support catalan independenve is because a) is more of a economic institution than a political, b) it woukd allow other reguons inside of europe to oledge for their independence. Besides those catalans who want indepence maybe selfish and egotistical, but so is the spanish governemet who instead of helping one of its more piwerful regions (economically speaking) resorts to sabotage not only of the region but of all of spanish growth and wealth.

    • avatar
      Chi

      Christian You might not know that Spain has invested massively in the Catalan infrastructure because they are best placed geographically and would generate most exports/business.

    • avatar
      José

      Jaume So half the country wants to leave the other half because of a dictator that died half a century ago? Sounds legit. Yeeeeeees…. Legiiiiiiiit….

    • avatar
      Mada

      Cuando un pais prohibe cantar en la calle. Cuando un pais amenaza a su pueblo… Como se le llama? España es una dictadura. Cataluña se merece el derecho a ser libre. Se hizo referendum el 1 octubre. Se voto el 21 d y los resultados fueron iguales. Si a cataluña libre.

    • avatar
      Anthony

      Mada una dictadura que The Economist coloca por delante de Francia y de Bélgica en su índice democrático… lea o mire Ud. otra cosa que Ara, El Punt Avui o TV3 en vez de decir perogrulladas. Conozco a independentistas con mejores argumentos

    • avatar
      Francisco

      I think its just the other way around

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Hay una cosa que se llama constitución española que Cataluña firmó en su día,así que ahora se queda donde está, sino no haberla aceptado en su día.

  25. avatar
    Alfred

    I am catalan and i really wish that my country could be free and independent. Has been centuries of repression against our identity, culture, language etc and we keep being alive although historical repression since we lost our sovereignty in 1714. At least, Catalans should be able to decide if we want to exist in the international would by ourselves and be free or not. Stop repression against Catalonia!!

    • avatar
      Christian

      All lies, less of 50% of the votes right now

    • avatar
      Roy

      Good news!! Your country is free and independent!! Your country is Spain btw, how lucky.

    • avatar
      Adam

      The best part of this movie is that more than 60% of Catalonia don’t want to be independent.. And the rest of 40% are brain wash from there líder… Wake up and think…

    • avatar
      Miki

      Im catalan too and this guy has no idea about history XD. Dear Alfred, catal riot’s were on 1640, what happened on 1714 its a war involving the crowns of Austria and France (we were under their protection against spain from 1640 to 1652 i guess) and when most part of catalan feudal lords supported austrian crown it was in name of the real spanish king (and in view what happened to us in our 12 year independence under french protection).

      If u understand that for historical reasons I also would like to undertand what u call repression…
      You are welcome.

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Roy Nicely our, I was leaning towards independence, but after reading your comment I have changed my mind! 👏👏👏👏

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Adam ok, then let’s have a legal referendum to corroborate this…

    • avatar
      Alfred

      Miki that is half true. The war in 1640 was first an independent war were the catalan president declared the catalan republic and after that they declered the french king has count of bcn, which means we entered inside the french monarqui for some years.. The war in 1714 was later. Catalonia before losing the war in 1714 was a sobirane state with their constutitions and rights, also Castilian, aragon and other kingdoms. In fact spain didnt has any constitutions or common lows, the only thing was a common king because they had the several titles by previous marriages (count of bcn, king of Castilian, aragon etc). He had to respect the diferents constitutions in the several states, as well like the commonwell the the same queen dominate canada, uk, australia but they are sobiran states.
      After the conquest of 1714 the Spanish king supressed the constitutions and lows of the conquested territories and impossed by force the Castilian lows and constitutions. The first spanish constitution was in 1812. And the spanish ithem, identity etc started in XIX century according the the castilian cuture, language and lows.. Spain has tried to supress the catalan languge, culture and identity since 1714, and impose the spanish.. It depends of the periode the spanish nationalisme has been more agressive or less, but it has been the reallity the latest 300 years after we lost our sobirinity, and catalans keeps defending our national identity, language and so on in front of the sistematic atack of the spanish state and spanish nationalists and media..

    • avatar
      Anthony

      Alfred Puertolas this is false. Catalonia was never a state neither before 1640 nor before 1714. Please read the books of J. Elliott and of M. Albaladejo on those topics… I am an historian and am prone to discuss with you

    • avatar
      Oscar

      Cataluña nunca fue independiente salvo en sus libros y sus canales de tv.

    • avatar
      Alfred

      Please read history. When is the first spanish constitutions? 1812. The first catalans constituions are from 1283. The first catalan parliment (corts catalanes) from 1192, the spanish from 1834. Puigdemont is the catalan president 30th of the catalan goverment, rajoy is the 9th prisdent of the spanish goverment. Please stop lying and pretend to say that catalonia has never exist.. The spanish nationalisme is simple the extension of the Castilian nation and the conquered colonies. I add a map from the XIX century you all can see in el pardo museum in Madrid.

    • avatar
      Alfred

      https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decretos_de_Nueva_Planta#El_Decreto_de_Nueva_Planta_de_los_reinos_de_Arag%C3%B3n_y_de_Valencia
      This ia what happened after the castilian or spanish conquer in 1714..
      Before that, the king had to agreed all with the catalan institutiona according the catalan laws, it did not exist any spanish laws or constitutions. It was after catalan defeat in 1714 that the impose the castilian laws and constitutions at the same time that a process of making catalan lengauge, identity etc with huge repretion to make it desapear.. And we keep being alives. Remember after 1714 all catalans had just to have one knife in their homes and tidy in the table. The spanish created a castilian militar in the ciiutadella in barcelona to control the city and they also built the castle of mintjuic where they had the canons towards bcn to control the city and any possible riots. Many catalans had to exilieted in other countries and many othera were executed.. I could be talking so much about catalan history, and sadly we have always lose our wars.. Thats why we keep having repression.. But it is impossible to say that catalonia was not a contry neither state until 1714.. I know spanish nationalisme has been always crazy in the concept of create an idea of spanish unification in all sense, but it has never been the reality.. So please just stop repretion and start talking, listening and agreed with citizens and people..

  26. avatar
    Raúl

    Se puede debatir y promocionar la secesión de un territorio de un país de la UE pero hay que condenar y castigar la independencia de los territorios del este de Ucrania y de Crimea que no pertenecen a la UE y no nos competen. Se recoge información falsa y sesgada de un proceso ilegal. Se utiliza el idioma de un país que se saldrá de la UE para comunicarse con los ciudadanos europeos. Esto es Europa señores!! Destroying Europe

    • avatar
      Chris

      No digo nada sobre los otros puntos, pero a parte del Reinó Unido hay la Irlanda y Malta que tienen el inglés como idioma oficial. Pero soy muy de acuerdo que deberíamos utilizar más las otras idiomas, no solo el inglés.

    • avatar
      Teresa

      Aqui quien.ha salido de Europa y se ha ido a Turquia es España y si la dejan arruina la UE y lo corrompe todo

    • avatar
      Jep

      Andalucia is the most corrpt region in Spain, sorry for thr andaluz people and the PP party with the Psoe should have have jailed the majority of theirs politicians
      This link should have exposed comparisons between regions, to be credible, is done from a more than partial point of view and shows too many errors.
      To cheat children and indoctrinate them with bad history or to make a bad history movie would serve.

      P.s.:This is as if you wrote that Poland wanted to be invaded and that the English hid in their houses and now they are going to do it again, and that the French as owners of the city of love, everyone who goes fucks 😂😂😂

    • avatar
      Roy

      We all knew Andalucia was the most corrupt region. If you read properly, as it is in the article, at that moment the ERE case wasnt proved, so until that moment, oficially, Cataluña was the most corrupted region.
      You see, the difference is the article only defines proved things. And it contains no errors btw. That you dont like the truth doest change it.

    • avatar
      Roy

      Oh, and you should check the links: each underlined phrase has a link proving each statement. Probably you missed that.

  27. avatar
    Cem

    Since it would affect the entire EU I think there should be a referendum for all 500 Million EU citizens

    • avatar
      Jordi

      👏👏👏👏it would actually affect the whole world.. a new country requesting membership in international organizations, maps been redrawn. This calls for the first worldwide referendum. Hopefully people will understand it’s a good idea, nobody deserves to be ruled by the wretched Spanish state, not even its corrupt leaders..

    • avatar
      Cem

      Jordi no it wouldn’t because as usual, German taxpayers will pay and you are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

  28. avatar
    Jorge

    It wont happen, the majority doesn’t want it, and even if they managed to ignore that 50% that didn’t voted for independendence, Trabarnia would seceed from Catalonia… And Catalonia without Barcelona is just rednecks, pigs and donkeys, which are the ones voting for the nationalists parties.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Then they whine when they get called fascist..

    • avatar
      Jorge

      Jordi sou vosaltres els que plorar basant-nos en ofenses que mai van existir, sobre pecats mai comesos, crims que mai van existir, i robatoris que mai fuernon tals… ser nacionalista catala es viure en un mon de fantasia on tot el catala es bo i el que es espanyol malvat… pero es un conte i cal creixer i madurar amor.
      el feixista es el que s’entesta a crear-se histories i contes falsos, els espanyols són els jueus a vista de l’català nacionalista. tots els problemes que tant es queixa la gent a Catalunya s’han cuinat i servit aquí a casa nen. i sento dexirte que per molt que ho repeteixis, no espanya no es un pais feixista, simplement cal politics catalans que son o is criminals, a ulls d’Espanya, la Unio Europea, les Nacions Unides i tambe de jutges catalans

    • avatar
      Mada

      Tabarnia is a fake

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Independentism is a fake

    • avatar
      Mada

      Como se que me entiendes. Te recuerdo el resultado legal del 21 de diciembre del 2017.con la mayor participacion en muchos años?

    • avatar
      Mada

      Esta claro que unos mienten y otros siguen la misma linea de siempre. Tenlo claro. Ni rebelion ni malversacion ni somos terroristas. Las urnas no explotan como para que vayan a porrazos contra gente pacifica desarmada.

    • avatar
      Mada

      Votar es democracia. Y no solo hemos votado 2 veces. Sino que muchos paises ya saben de que pie cojeais😉

    • avatar
      Jorge

      Te puedl decir que paises formalmente apoyan la posición de los independentistas… Cero… Te puedo decir los paises que han dado apoyo total al gobierno español, la unión europea al completo tambien otros como Estados Unidos, Canadá, la mayoria de Latinoamérica… A bueno si Venezuela apoya a los independentistas… Dime con quien andas…
      Las elecciones del 21 dejaron a C’s como 1ª fuerza y a los partidos no nacionalistas en mayoria de votos, que no de escaños cuestiones de la ley electoral española… Si contamos los psrtidos pro independencia y los no independencia quedo todo en un 50/50 en votos. Lo de la policia completamente verdad, me parece horrible las ostias que llevan años propinando los mossos contra participantes pacificos con el conocimiento y bajo órdenes de la generalitar, muy mal!
      Si habeis votado… Dos? Desde 2014 habreis (habremos en todo caso) votado 6 veces… Que dictadura tan rara en la que se vota tantisimo…
      Y no chica siento decirte, pero la mayor patada que se ha podido llevar el nsciobalismo catalán es cuando Nicola Strungeon presidenta del parlamento escocésse desentendió de los político catalanes como todos los politicos y representantes de europa… Bueno no os apoyan como dijimos… Rusia, Venezuela, el partido Britanico UkIP, Le Pen se declaró a favor también… Si uno compara los amigos de Puchi y los del gobierno mmmmmmmm algo me dice que a los que se les ve el plumero no es a nosotros cariño

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Me puedes decir quien es el representante legal de tabarnia en el parlamento catalan? Jajaja

  29. avatar
    SpainVSdemocracy

    47,5% in Catalonia is for independence, 42% for the Spanish constitution. A clear majority for the first. The only task left for the second group is to aim to convince the first to switch side. Since that doesn’t happen and only prison and vulnerations of rights are offered, Catalonia deserves to be a new state.

  30. avatar
    Jaime

    47% of Catalans voted for independence. This is not majority of Catalans…

    • avatar
      Jordi

      In the referendum it was 38% of the census (Brexit was 37%), in the elections 47.5% versus 44.5% for the unionist parties. It’s funny all these unionists so confident pro-Indy are a minority but refusing to take part in the referendum we have been requesting for the last 6 years..

    • avatar
      Jaime

      47.5+44.5=100?

    • avatar
      Jordi

      No, the remainder voted for CeC, which is not a unionist party. That is precisely the point, that amongst those who voted following a plebiscitary logic, the independence camp won again (as in 2015). As you rightly point out 47.5 is well over 50% of 92.

    • avatar
      Felix

      True. The 8% of EnComu doesn’t count as a YES or NO vote since they haven’t pronounced themselves for or against independence for a very simple reason: their voters are divided on this issue. On the other hand they are indeed PRO-REFERENDUM. However it’s not possible to use electoral results as a substitute for a referendum. The only way to find out is to let people vote on the issue. Many of the Unionists though, claiming they’re so sure that there’s no majority for independence in Catalonia, opposes themselves strongly to celebrate a referendum. I wonder why…

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Biased message

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Did you vote “yes”?

    • avatar
      Jaime

      There were “plebiscitary elections” (using pro-independence terminology) and still they never reach 50 % of the total votes

    • avatar
      Jaime

      By the way, Pablo Iglesias always stated that he doesn’t want Cataluña independence. Isn’t it clear?

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Referendum? Let’s do one to increase salaries. Is that responsable ? What will be the result? Es populismo del malo

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Ahí has hablado, no se le puede hacer caso a minorías.

    • avatar
      Mario

      Thing is, there are X million catalans in catalunya. The votes ascend up to 3X million. That doesnt make sense. Good luck finding reasons to fight that.

    • avatar
      Mario

      Btw I always find funny how foreign people states their opinion about yhis topic without even bothering investigate a bit.

    • avatar
      Felix

      Jaime – En Comú is not Podemos and is not led by Pablo Iglesias. It’s a well known fact their voters in Catalonia are divided in half on this issue. But nevermind that, I repeat: elections are not a referendum, no matter if it’s called a plebiscite or not.

    • avatar
      Felix

      Mario No estic segur si et refereixes a mi però porto més de 20 anys a Catalunya i conec el tema molt bé…

    • avatar
      Andreu

      Senior members of other parties clearly state they do not oppose independence. 45 vs 35 is a majority.

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Independence could not be declared with a support of 45%. Is that democratic?

    • avatar
      Felix

      Even if support for independence was 90% you would still question its legitimacy, wouldn’t you? Just like it wasn’t enough for you guys with 80% of the Catalans in favour of holding a referendum on independence to legitimate it, right?

    • avatar
      Jaime

      This an endless complaint from people with the highest life quality standard in Europe. Let’s spread this policy to the rest of Europe and Europe will disappear.

    • avatar
      Felix

      Can you mention one country/region in Europe that have such major support for independence/vote on independence as Catalonia? And if there is some, why is it such a horrible idea to decentralise the political power and create a Europe based on countries rather than bigger states?

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Common sense is that idea that you mentioned. Split between rich and poor regions is what you wish. True: big support to independence. True: Cataluña is a rich region. True: supports change, actually this big one is something new in Cataluña. True: this idea could spread easily.

    • avatar
      Felix

      You’re simplifying. For a start you know aswell as I that Catalonia is not just another region, it’s a country and a nation of its own, with all what that means, and should therefore be respected as such, even when it concerns the worldly recognised right to self-determination. Self-determination can mean many things, of which becoming an independent state is one. Catalonia should, in other words, have the right to decide it’s own future. About Catalonia being a rich region, it’s wrong to believe that this is only about money. If it really was so, do you think the catalans would be happy if only they could keep their money? For example, let’s say that all the wealth generated in Catalonia would stay in Catalonia, on the other hand everything would be run by Madrid: institutions, legislation, school-system, language policy, hospitals and health care, public TV, public transport, airports etcetera etcetera, all of this run by the central government, like a permanent 155, with the difference that all the money would stay in Catalonia. Do you think the catalans would be happy with that? Of course not. Money is not the major drive for the independence movement, it’s rather the level of self-rule.

      About poorer and richer regions within EU they already exist today and of course an independent Catalonia would have to be solidary with the rest. Furthermore specific agreements could be made with close by neighbours and thanks to EU a more equal distribution could be developed. If you think this is about egoism and keeping it all for themselves you haven’t understood what’s moving this forward. It’s rather about being able to legislate, for example, without having every second initiative ruled over by Madrid. Making politics, in short.

    • avatar
      Jaime

      LOL, so independence movement was born after 155 approval? Is that right? Wasn’t 155 article approved after pro-independent politics declare independence with less than 50% of the votes? Is that democratic?

    • avatar
      Jaime

      By the way, when was Cataluña a state?

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Greed is the reason why many people support independence.

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Using your own criteria to define what a nation is, it wouldn’t be an excessive to say that there are hundreds of nations in Europe. Sad outlook for Europe.

    • avatar
      Felix

      Ok…in order
      1) I don’t understand what you mean, I was talking about the level of self-rule, using article 155 as a way to describe a situation where there is none, a mere example to make my point clear, a way to explain, nothing else.

      2) I don’t think I’ve ever said that Catalonia is a state..?

      3) I was trying to prove to you that greed is not the drive behind the independence movement but you obviously disagree. Greed doesn’t make 2 millions of people go out on the street and demonstrate for their rights. Your analysis is wrong and simplistic.

      4) Probably many yes, that doesn’t mean all of them want to become independent states, actually very few has a major support for independence.

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Good you accept some facts as Catalonia never was a state. Good you didn’t deny that article 155 was approved after some undemocratic politics declare independence (< 50% of the votes).

    • avatar
      Jaime

      You said: “your analysis is wrong and simplistic”. Who decides what it is wrong or not???

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Catalan movement is not the only example of big support to Nationalism in History. Don’t be so egocentric.

    • avatar
      Jaime

      As we can see in History, big support to a specific movement doesn’t always mean to be better.

    • avatar
      Felix

      The use they’ve made of article 155 is a clear abuse of power and the constitution, once again PP twisting the law until breaking it, over riding their competencies and interpretating the article 155 in a very “generous” way, using it to sack a democratically elected government etc.

    • avatar
      Felix

      I don’t decide what’s wrong, it’s an opinion, obviously

    • avatar
      Felix

      I asked you before to give examples of countries in Europe that have an equivalent support for independence as in Catalonia today

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Good. So you accept that declaring independence with less than 50% is something very serious, don’t you?

    • avatar
      Felix

      Good or bad is irrelevant, the independence movement is a democratic peaceful movement with major support among the catalan people and should as such be respected

    • avatar
      Felix

      I don’t know what you mean with less than 50%. 90% of the votes was pro-independence in the 1 October referendum with a participation that exceeds the one held in UK for Brexit to give just one example. The only thing I agree to is that it’s impossible for Catalonia to actually BECOME independent (declarations of independence apart) if not an agreement is reached with the Spanish state. If you ask me, I think the only way out of this extremely serious political crisis is to hold yet another referendum after a previous agreement with the Spanish state. But someone needs to force the Spanish government to the table to negotiate.

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Some arguments are not serious. Do you really think 90% of Catalans support the independence? This is ridiculous as it is to declare independence in the way it was done. You should consider others opinions.

    • avatar
      Jaime

      If we take into account that 10 years ago independence movement in Catalonia was nothing, don’t you think that after having this example, there will be many other historical regions that will decide not to share their wealth with others?

    • avatar
      Jaime

      Sad Europe! Always nationalisms…

    • avatar
      Felix

      Jaime, I never said 90% of the Catalans support independence, of course not. I say we don’t know how many supports it because we were never allowed to organise a referendum in fair conditions. The 90% is the result of the 1st October referendum, nothing else. Like I think I explained before its impossible to know how many are in favour of an independent Catalonia. 50%? Less than 50%? More than 50%? In situations like this what is usually done in most countries is to ask the people in a referendum. So let’s vote and get it over with once and for all.

    • avatar
      Felix

      Whether there are more countries in Europe that wants to follow Catalonia’s example I don’t know but like I said earlier I don’t think there are many with the same popular support for independence as in Catalonia. But even if so I don’t see why not? In a democracy everything should be allowed to debate and, if sufficient support is found, also vote upon. And about Catalonia creating a dangerous precedent for others to follow, you could say the same about Scotland, Quebec, The Baltic countries, Czech republic, Slovakia and a long etcetera. Should we have prohibited these countries to vote on independence as well?

    • avatar
      Felix

      Your arguments of greed mixed with nationalism isn’t correct either. You know as well as I do that in this conflict, Spanish nationalism is just as relevant, if not more. This conflict is not essentially about nationalism, it’s about political power and self-rule, it’s about the right to self-determination and about the right to divorce. And, ultimately, it’s about democracy.

    • avatar
      Jaime

      😘😘

  31. avatar
    Tiago

    If we seek for a united europe what is the point of more divisions?
    Catalonia indepence issue is sensitive since the population is divided in half.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      That is true, the population is divided, which is a fact regardless of whether independence takes place or not. So, let’s be democrats, sit down to discuss things, have a debate, then vote. Oooops! I forgot, this is Spain, rule by right of conquest..

    • avatar
      Tiago

      I understand your point of view, but if everyone remembers that each region they belong should be independent…
      Well this is a one more thing promoted by radical left wing to weak the european project

    • avatar
      Rodrigo

      Jordi so when exactly did Spain conquer Catalonia? Lighten us with your alt facts

    • avatar
      Javier

      Jordi yo también soy español y quiero votar por el futuro de españa, eso es democracia, no que voten solo los independentistas…
      eso es un golpe de estado

    • avatar
      Mada

      La mitad no. De hecho quien gano en escaños fue los independentistas😉

    • avatar
      Mada

      Un pais donde recorta derechos como se le llama? Un pais donde pega por votar como se le llama? Un pais que gobierna un partido con mas de 1000 imputados por corrupcion como se le llama?

    • avatar
      Alessandro

      Well this assumption would make sense in case single nation governments wouldn’t exist which is not the case

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Pero no en votos que es lo que cuenta, en votos ha ganado permanecer en España y así sera.

  32. avatar
    Victor

    The issue of Cataluña is very dangerous for Europe. This desire of independence has been promoted by the catalan government. It is curious how the most corrupt and incompetent government in Spain, the catalan one, started to promote the feeling of lack of freedom and democracy in one of the wealthiest regions in Spain and, maybe, in Europe. Convergencia, the political party that has provoked all of this, was finished in 2012 and by chance the only way to be in charge was to demand rights from the 12th century selling a disgusting victimism and brainwashing the catalan people by the media and the educational system that are under its total control. At least, the catalan government is much more intelligent than the Spanish one, PP, who has been falling in all their traps and helping them to create the feeling of victimism. If they succeed, Europe is over. Any corrupt and incompetent government can create those feelings and demand rights from the middle age, so Europe would have not learnt anything from its bloody history.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Sorry, but you have it upside down, the Catalan political establishment followed a groundswell of support for independence in society, not the other way around. The instigator of this are to be found on the Spanish political establishment who have been systematically curtailing Catalan autonomy for many years, not least by using the constitutional court to undermine the statute of autonomy which had been approved by the Spanish parliament and a referendum in Catalonia, as the Spanish constitution foresees.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Jordi I am the last person who is going to support the corrupt and incompetent Spanish government. It is true that what PP did with the statut was totally wrong, PP needs a new ETA to fuel the bitter Spanish nationalism. Cataluña is a prosperous and wealthy region, so I cannot comprehend how it has been unfairly treat. In fact, Cataluña has been the key for all the Spanish governments and has taken absolutely everything it has wanted (except the management of the taxes as the vasque country, one of the reasons to justify their disaster managing the region). If you are right, where were the parades and riots before 2012? Just when the crisis, corruption and polls said that convergencia was finished. Just then, the will of the people, justified on lies and guts, became the core of Cataluña. Cataluña has one of the worst government in Europe, look at the document above, and they could get married in the hell in order to keep being in charge, as they are doing…

    • avatar
      Jordi

      1. No riots. There has been no riots. We have taken every blow showing the other cheek. Respect that. It’s called peaceful protest and non-violent disobedience. No riots.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      2. Independence movement starts with 1 million person diada march in July 2010, one month after the constitutional court broke the spanish constitution by repealing the most important parts of the statute of autonomy

    • avatar
      Jordi

      3. Yes, there has been corruption in Catalonia, but not on the all encompassing scale one finds it in Madrid or Valencia. Catalan society is not as tolerant with corruption, this is why CiU was severely punished, and has since refounded twice, with all key leaders now out of the way. You cannot say the same for Spain, where M.Rajoy, who appears 10 times as a recipient of bribes in the Barcenas papers got re-elected in spite of the whole country having clear evidence of his corruption. I will not get started with corruption in the judiciary and the media. Suffice it to say that your narrative of equally corrupt societies does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      4. The 4 million page document you posted. please kindly refer me to the specific passage that is so relevant. I’m not that busy, but not that bored either. Please respect other people’s time

    • avatar
      Jordi

      5. Why are you righting “Cataluña” when we are speaking in English? Is it a way of showing it belongs to Spain by de vine right? In English it’s Catalonia.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      6. “Catalonia is a prosperous region”. Sort of, it would be more prosperous if it could manage it’s own affairs and didn’t have to send 8% of it’s GDP every year to the rest of Spain to people who despise Catalan identity and do not respect the fundamental rights of the Catalan people. By the way, if it is prosperous, how come? In spite of how terrible the regional government has been?

    • avatar
      Victor

      Too much hate taught. As you can see, this is not an issue between Cataluña and Spain, this is an issue of part of the catalan society, brainwashed by Joseph goebbels’ techniques, against the other part of the catalan society who do not support them and the rest of Spaniards. For the sake of Europe, we all have to, peacefully, fight against this.

    • avatar
      Genis

      Come on are you kidding me?! Everyone knows the most corrupted party in Spain is PP, even one of the most in hole Europe and independentist movement it’s a wish of the people because there has not been any damn Spanish Gobernment able to listen to the catalan claims

    • avatar
      Victor

      The Spanish government is disgusting, it is the real enemy of you and me. Remember who has been the ally of PP all the time, remember who has supported PP in Madrid and who has supported convergencia in Cataluña. And remember when the catalan government started asking for the will of the people. But not, the problem is that catalan people are better, more productive and less tolerant to the corruption than the lazy and fascist Spaniards. Pure guts and hate.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Victor CP You haven’t answered any of my arguments. If you want to fight it peacefully you should stop talking about people being “brainwashed” and the “goebels techniques”. These are plain insults and part of an attempt to demonise and criminalise Catalan Republicanism. Fighting us peacefully means toning down these insults, because they are insults, and engaging with arguments. Let me add this: I don’t think you know Catalan society (from the things you say about it). Have you wondered whether you might not have yourself bought in to a certain narrative fed to you by interested parties uncritically? My feeling as regards brainwashing is that the Spanish population is the most brainwashed in Europe in relation to Catalonia. In Catalonia we have both Spanish and Catalan media, which provide very different pictures; in the rest of Spain however, Catalan republicanism is systematically demonised and ridiculed by the media mainstream media, and one of the things that is repeated over and over is that Catalans are brainwashed by Catalan media. Which is quite funny when you consider that those who say this don’t know Catalan media. For me however, switching from Catalan to Spanish public TV is like travelling 40 years into the past..

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Esto se queda como esta
      This stays like this

    • avatar
      Victor

      Arguments? That catalans are better than the rest of Spaniards? Or who don’t think as you is a fascist brainwashed? Or you don’t have time to discuss what I said? Or why I, totally offended, write Cataluña? Just because you read a ñ (I know you hate it and people who use it). No thanks…. I discuss arguments no feelings, yes, you are better than me just because I am not catalan and don’t think as you.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      I’m not offended because you write Cataluña, I just pointed out that it was odd. I am however offended when you use the Goebels comparison without supporting it with any kind of fact. i am also offended when you talk about riots. These are plain lies. When you talk about hatred towards Spaniards or notions of superiority, these are not the reasons why we are seeking independence. We want independence so we can have a decent society which is impossible within the Spanish state. As to the “time”; please read the comment again instead of recklessly manipulating my words. You are indeed, short of arguments, which is not because you are Spanish, I am Spanish too. It’s simply because you are short of arguments. And when you attempt to depict those who think differently from you as being brainwashed and nazis you do not support it with argument -it is a plain attempt to dehumanise us-, when I discussed brainwashing I think I did supply an argument to back up the claim. So, there you go..

    • avatar
      Felix

      Thank you Jordi, you just saved me a lot of writing 👍

    • avatar
      Victor

      De res mate

    • avatar
      Felix

      Btw Víctor, I’m not sure why you focus so much on former CiU (Convergència i Unió) now PDEcat, a party that didn’t join the independence movement until 2012? This is AFTER two years of massive pro-independence demonstrations in Barcelona against the Tribunal Constitutional cutting down the Catalan Estatut on PP’s petition. So no, Convergència did absolutely not “create” this as you claim. And why not mention the just as big and important ERC, a leftwing party that has struggled for catalan independence for a century! Or CUP? None of them has any records of corruption at all, and historically they have been the ones bringing the independence movement forward. But just as Jordi pointed out, this is a grassroot movement and not something coming from “above”. I just thought it funny that you seem to avoid to mention these political parties…

    • avatar
      Victor

      Convergencia was who, in order to continue in charge, linked themselves with ERC as the only exit and they created that so-called junts pel si. After that, I don’t remember the years, they needed the CUP to continue in charge. At the end, it is always convergencia who is moving everything to be in charge, as they continue being. So, to me, ERC and CUP are mere puppets of convergencia. ERC represents that part of the catalan society who have not overcome the Franco dictatorship and are thinking that Franco was a horrible dictator in Cataluña, he was, and a state man in the rest of the country. Glorious speech full of hate and underestimating the rest of Spaniards as carod Rovira who made a deal with ETA to stop killing in Cataluña whereas it didn’t matter to continue killing Spaniards. Only when convergencia has needed the independence to keep its power is when all this mess started. Your reasons for the independence are base on a historical delirium, selfishness, racial and culture supremacy, and specially on lies. We are tired of listening that we live of your work, that we are the reason of your problems, that we are fascists etc etc

    • avatar
      Jordi

      “carod Rovira who made a deal with ETA to stop killing in Cataluña whereas it didn’t matter to continue killing Spaniards. ” This is a plain lie. Please provide evidence for this

    • avatar
      Jordi

      “to me, ERC and CUP are mere puppets of convergencia” This is your opinion based on what..?

    • avatar
      Victor

      Just googling a little bit

    • avatar
      Victor

      What convergencia has done and is doing is clear, but if you do not want to see it and prefer to think that they have taken the voice of the people it is up to you

    • avatar
      Jordi

      “Your reasons for the independence are base on a historical delirium, selfishness, racial and culture supremacy, and specially on lies. We are tired of listening that we live of your work, that we are the reason of your problems, that we are fascists etc etc” This is a lot os slander.. But nobody here has called you a fascist. You have however compared us to Goebbels and said that we are supremacists.. However, it is our government that is in prison and exile on the basis of outrageous trumped up charges, it is the Spanish government that avoids dialogue and a political solution to a political problem. It is your government that sent 10,000 Catalan-hating robocops to the chant of “a por ellos oeee” to stop a referendum to the tune of 87 million euros, to beat up peaceful citizens. It is the Spanish judiciary who are requesting 14 year prison sentence for a man for wearing a clown nose, and on and on and on and on. If I hadn’t become a Catalan Republican I would definitely be extremely ashamed about what Spain is doing in Catalonia, because democracy and freedom are to me superior values to Spain and Catalonia; as they should be to any citizen, it is when you’re nationalism gets ahead of you, that you fail to see this. Which is again the funny thing with Spanish nationalists, they fail to see that they are nationalists.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Well, everything is useless because either you don’t read what I say or it does not matter what I say and you say the same all the time. We are not going to agree and this shows the complexity of this issue. To me there are no good or bad guys, black or white, everything is gray, but you don’t derail your speech and point out all the time how bad Spanish are and how good, and victims, catalans are. At least, we have not finished offending each other and that’s good. We could work and live together, we could improve our lives together, but what you are doing is to make PP and convergencia stronger.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      I do indeed read what you say. I have actually bothered to respond quite specifically to everything you have said. We can live together, but we need to respect each other for that. Where have I said that the “Spanish are bad”? Catalans are indeed victims of the Spanish state. What part of this do you not understand? Your talk about the PP and Convergencia is pointless if you’re not willing to recognise our democratic rights and the way they are been trampled. The minimum agreement we need starts with you stopping the gratuitous demonisation of Catalan republicanism that consists in comparing us to nazis. We’re quite happy to help you change Spain. But you must also accept that it is our legitimate right to seek independence, which does not mean we are hostile to Spanish people, it simply means we have reached the conclusion that as a people we cannot flourish under the Spanish state. Removing self-rule and calling us brainwashed nazis does not help us think otherwise.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Victor Convergencia no longer exists, it is now PDeCat, only part of JxCat

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Victor There was a meeting, your assumption that there was a deal for Catalonia is BS. Why would there be such a deal? In any case this corresponds to the very last period of ETA. You might also conclude that the meeting helped bring ETA’s terrorist activity to an end throughout Spain. How many attacks after 2004? Again you are trying to demonise us.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Unbelievable.

    • avatar
      Victor

      A political party full of corruption and crap changes its name and it exempts its sins, great. Also, we all own carod Rovira the end of ETA. I have no words, sorry but I am not be able to discuss this.

    • avatar
      Felix

      Victor CP, apart from all the above that Jordi wrote, your idea of Convergència (that does no longer exist) as a power hungry machine who moves all the threads and fabricates separatists in order to stay in power, is a typical argument picked up from the Madrid press who does all it can to make believe that the independence movement is an artificial construction of a handful corrupt politicians to cover up for corruption and other shortcomings. In this way they’re trying to twist the truth to prove that the independence movement has nothing to do with the grassroots and the popular will and hence it’s not necessary to respect it in any way. This description is so warped and far away from reality that it can possibly be. I think anyone living in Catalonia can tell that this is not the case. Having said that I also noted that you blame the catalans for fueling PP…That’s a bit like saying the catalans are also responsible for “waking up fascism” in the rest of Spain, as someone said not long ago…(truth is its always been there though). This argument is ridiculous of course. Especially since almost no one in Catalonia vote for PP, they have only 4 MP:s in the catalan parliament.

    • avatar
      Felix

      And about your tiring “supremacist” argument: Listen, catalans don’t think they’re better than anyone else and they’re not against the Spaniards or any other people on the iberian peninsula, in any case they’re against the Spanish State due to numerous reasons. The independence movement is transversal and open to anyone, white, black, andaluz, gallego or pakistani, it doesn’t matter. A proof of that is the many immigrants forming part of this movement, me myself is an example. I have never noticed anything like “supremacy” in this movement. It is also genuinely democratic. So please stop calling us supremacist or Nazis or any of the other tags you like to use, it’s plain ridiculous and no one believes it.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Democratic? To close the parliament, which is the real voice of the people not the government, to break all the laws to impose an idea, to disobey what you don’t like. I can’t imagine if PP had made all of that… And instead of saying that catalans have less tolerance to the corruption (implicitly saying that the rest of Spaniards enjoy it), I would say that you have less memory because one just have to change his name and nothing happened. I don’t know what kind of heaven convergencia is selling you, but what they want is to change the cortijo for their masía which is exactly the same. But who knows, catalans are so perfect. And not just that, after that you want Países Catalanes taking Valencia, Balears, parts of Aragon, Murcia and France, so a new Israel in western Europe making settlements and forcing the Spanish savages to throw away stones over the imperial and powerful catalan army. As I told you, you have focused your dream on hate and a lack of respect toward the rest of Spaniards.

    • avatar
      Felix

      “I can’t imagine if PP had made all of that…”… Thanks for making me laugh at least 😂 Sure, they’re only the most corrupt political party in Europe “acting like a criminal organisation” according to an investigation carried out by the very Spanish police! Furthermore they’ve twisted the laws and the constitution so much they’re actually breaking them, the generous interpretation of article 155 and the use they’ve made of it, clearly over riding their competencies, is only one example. But since the judges and the government are practically one, nothing happens. And so on.

    • avatar
      Felix

      About the hate discourse, I’ve already explained that nobody hates the Spanish people so drop it. I feel sorry if these are your actual feelings regarding the Catalans, I don’t know where you’re from or where you live, but you should come to Catalonia and see for yourself. I promise we won’t bite. And we will talk to you in castellano or english or any other language you want.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Sorry Félix, but I totally agree. PP is destroying everything, it is a criminal organization that should be banned. It is funny to see how all those who are very Spanish vote for a political party that, leaving apart their duty ethic, style, and moral, is destroying Spain social and economically.

    • avatar
      Victor

      What it is painful the most for you, Félix and Jordi, is that we are the same. You are not better than the rest of Spaniards, neither the rest of Spaniards are stealing you. The “a por ellos oe” was painful for the catalans and for many people and it represents a disgusting part of the society with no culture at all, the same as in Catalonia there are many stupid people and bigotry. But they both don’t represent either Spain or Catalonia. Lies, lies and lies taking advantage of the economical crisis and what the awkward PP does that is the so-called process. We are stronger together and share a lot, culture, history, miseries, good and bad things, because of that what the politicians are doing is a crime and we have to avoid it, but you continue without open your eyes. We are not your enemy, your problems don’t come from your Spanish citizenship, your problems come from very bad politicians in Barcelona and Madrid.

    • avatar
      Felix

      I agree independence is not the only solution. But we have reached a point of no return. Over 2 millions of us are convinced that we have no future in Spain as it looks today. And another 2 million wants a radical change in the relationship between Catalonia and Spain, greater fiscal autonomy and higher level of self-determination etc. Only a minority in Catalonia defends the status quo. The way I see it there’s only one way out of this conflict: representatives from both the Spanish and the Catalan government must sit down and negotiate to reach an agreement. This agreement must contain the option to celebrate a referendum on independence. It must also contain a counter offer from the Spanish government. The Spanish state must understand that if they want to keep Catalonia within Spain they cannot do this by force or by sentencing all our politicians to jail. They need to convince the catalans it’s worth staying. They need to guarantee Catalonia a greater freedom within its borders. Only this way this conflict could be solved satisfactorily for those who want Catalonia to continue to be a part of this pluri-national state. But right now there’s no such solution in sight. And seeing how PPSOEC all lines up against Catalonia I don’t see how this could be solved any time near. As long as anti-catalan politics are rewarded with votes it’s very difficult to see any light in the end of the tunnel. And for each year that passes of hostility towards Catalonia, the independence movement will grow even stronger. The only immediate solution would be through International mediation and EU forcing the Spanish government to the table to negotiate, although this isn’t very likely to happen. What everybody needs to understand is that there’s no turning back to where we were.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Felix a referendum nowadays I think it would be unfair. There are too much feelings on the streets to be able to take a decision like this. We should not have reached this point and could have solved it in a rational way, only the political profit of convergencia and PP has avoided to accomplish it. They, both, have taken the flag and touched the gut of everyone and here we are. I agree with you in some points, being the saddest that there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

    • avatar
      Victor

      And I strongly believe that it is worthy to stay together. I don’t give a f*%& about the unity of Spain, what I care is to continue to enjoy watching how Real Madrid wins to Barcelona 😉

  33. avatar
    Pere

    Institutional violence rose in Catalonia in the first months of the year amid renewed political tensions in the country, reports the Irídia human rights group. Police violence and freedom of assembly violations account for a majority of the incidents reported.
    Irídia’s Service for Handling and Reporting Cases of Institutional Violence (SAIDAVI) documented 80 cases in Barcelona and its surroundings since the beginning of the year. Half of them occurred in the last weekend of March, when the detention of the deposed president Carles Puigdemont in Germany prompted a wave of protests.
    Figures show an increase from 2017, when 52 cases were reported throughout the year, excluding those related to the October 1 independence vote. On referendum day, the ‘Som Defensores’ platform attended 94 alleged victims of police violence. In the days that followed, almost 300 people contacted the organization to report abuses.
    Irídia is an association that works for the defense of human rights in Catalonia, specifically focused on civil and political rights. It combines direct intervention in situations of violations of human rights with the development of social and political advocacy processes that aim to promote change in public policy.
    Reports on institutional violence: filling the gap
    SAIDAVI says it aims to “fill the gap” left by a lack of investigations by the authorities into reports of institutional violence on behalf of police, prison guards and employees of migrant detention centres. The organization says it also aims to identify the most representative cases of violence and take them to court, while also assisting victims to find evidence for their claims of abuse.
    Among Saidavi recommendations and demands is for the authorities to set up mediation mechanisms with the police to quickly resolve accusations of violent abuse.
    The organization also demands that riot police, like those during the October 1 referendum, wear identification numbers on their vests and helmets rather than just on their backs, as they do now. One of the most common complaints by those injured on October 1 is a feeling of “impotence” due to the lack of visual evidence for their claims and the difficulty of identifying the officers they claim assaulted them.

    • avatar
      Pere

      for sure. Can you explain it at judges in democratic countries 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇫🇮🇧🇪🇩🇪🇨🇭?

    • avatar
      Pere

      Google

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Si llevaban meses advirtiendo de que era ILEGAL, que esperaban, besitos?

    • avatar
      Mada

      Ilegal? Ilegal es la mala gestion de las pensiones. Ilegal es la cadena de favores. Referendum es legal.

  34. avatar
    Juan

    Be careful with the pro-monarquy and status quo arguments, they are used to playing with figures as they need it.
    The truth is that only the 43,5% of Catalan people agree or defend the actual situation (PPSOE Ciudadanos). In spite of the enormous opposition of the great media, economic, judicial and political powers, the vast majority of people demand solutions, demand changes. Last studies mentioned that around the 75-85% of catalan citisens defend the right tho choose they future, in terms of self-determination referendum. However, it seems obvious that a referendum is the best democratic solution, as they hold it in Quevec or Scotland. If the pro-king and constitutionalist supporters are not unsure about the result, probably they would accept it, it seems logical to me. Don’t you think so? But, we can observe the facts, they refuse dialogue and the political formula to solve this kind of situations. Why?
    Be careful with the information, contrast it, especially considering that state powerful actors have clear interests.

  35. avatar
    Rodrigo

    The Spanish constitution provides the legal mechanism for a constitutional amendment. If they want to do it, try the legal way. If you do it unilaterally, against the law and the constitution, it’s a crime.

    • avatar
      Mada

      La constitucion ampara al derecho a decidir. El referendum no es ilegal. O solo usais la constitucion para lo que os interesa?

    • avatar
      Rodrigo

      Mada estás hablando con un juez. Me vas a decir tú a mi lo que es o no ilegal.

    • avatar
      Max

      Falacia de autoridad.

    • avatar
      Rodrigo

      Max no es una falacia de autoridad. Es de suponer que yo conoceré el derecho. Iura novit curia.

    • avatar
      Anthony

      Rodrigo para los indepes, la razón la llevan ellos. Que sea Ud. juez o yo historiador no es suficiente. Se lo dijeron su Mesías, la ANC o TV3 y con esto le vale. A ver lo que le contesta esa señora. Creo que se va a poner a estudiar derecho 😂

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Exacto golpe de estado, como Tejero quiso hacer en su día, así que los lideres independentistas deben de ir a la cárcel.

    • avatar
      Mada

      Hombre golpe de estado es el que hacen contra cataluña. No aceptan los resultados del 21D.

    • avatar
      Mada

      El golpe de tejero esta en tela de juicio. De hecho salieron a la luz varios datos donde se indica un falso golpe de estado de tejero.

    • avatar
      Mada

      Arturo usted no es catalan. Usted es de lugo, galicia españa. El derecho es de los catalanes.

    • avatar
      Jordi

      Arturo Lopez después algunos se quejan cuando les llaman fascistas…

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Rodrigo
      The Spanish constitution is floored – it denies the right of the Catalans to SELF-DETERMINATION – this is a UN article!

  36. avatar
    Davide

    Sorry but we are talking about the sovereignty of the People of Spain. Please respect! Sovereignty is not about opinions of politicians.

  37. avatar
    Mada

    Freedom for Catalonia. freedom political prisoners. Im Catalonia voted in a referendum and won yes. Respect the results of the referendum and respected rhw results of the voting of 21D. Yes to Catalonia republic.

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Referéndum ilegal, manipulado, amañado, mentiroso, falso.

    • avatar
      Mada

      Referendum legal. Lo ampara la constitucion. Corrupcion ilegal. Gobierno español con mas de 1000 imputados. Recortes en sanidad, educacion, vivienda y asuntos sociales. Y malgasto de nuestras pensiones en armamento y misas para los militares. Perdonaa pero una mala gestion de nuestros impuestos esta arruinando un pais llamado españa. Cataluña tiene el derecho ha dedicir. De todas formas las votaciones del 21 de diciembre del 2017 fueron legales no? Yo vote a Casamajó, ilegal es no dejar gobernar y hacer falsas acusaciones.

    • avatar
      Luis

      Acaso no declararon la DUI? Acaso no celebraron un referéndum ilegal ?? Desde cuando todas esas cosas junto con las leyes de desconexión son legales ?? Me he perdido

    • avatar
      Mada

      Normal que te pierdas. Partiendo de la base que no es ilegal. Ilegal es cobrar en targetas b. Ilegal es pegar a civiles desarmados ejerciendo su derecho a voto. Ilegal son los sobres y cadena de favorea. Veo que confundes lo ilegal con lo legal. De todas formas no hace mucho tambien era ilegal que las mujeres pudieran votar. Asi que tu mismo.

    • avatar
      Mada

      De extremadura hablando de cataluña, sin tener idea de nada. Sabes que tenemos prohibido y perseguido tan solo estar en la plaza leyendo poemas?

  38. avatar
    Anonymous

    Should North Ireland, Quebec, California, Wales, Scotchland, Lombardia, Flandes, Occitania be it? Yugoslavia was a nice example. The freedom is an individual faculty. An independent country can be worst for his citizens, specially in the UE, with the problem of the nationalism, this fucking cracy idea of the XIX century.

  39. avatar
    Teresa

    Catalonia it,s a democratic state under Spain occupation. The repression agaist catalan republican citizens is out of control, now some of them are accused of terrorist. For exemple if you are in a rally in favour of freedom of our politicians or you explain agaist the Spain King in facebook or social media, you can be jailed for more than 5 years.
    Please, help us.
    Free Catalonia

    • avatar
      Arturo

      Falso

    • avatar
      Oscar

      Que vergüenza de comentario.. Nunca fue ni reino solo un condado, ni la historia lo ampara.. Más derechos tienen los aragoneses

    • avatar
      Mena

      Well, quite frankly, the Spanish monarchy is rather obsolete- and the king- a nice looking puppet, perhaps energy and funds should be spend on a referendum to ask whether if Spain needs a monarchy/constitutional or not. I would sell all royal properties and real estate and develop other states such as Gacilia and Extremadura, and leave alone Catalonian coffers to Catalans.

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      What a load of crap. Drop the hyperbole. Yes, Spain under the PP has ridiculous laws governing social media and criticising the government, but they are applied to the whole country, not just Catalunya. Look at your language rights, your elevated standard of living, the preservation of your culture protected by the Spanish constitution. Stop speaking as though to live in Catalunya is to live in the Gaza Strip, because frankly that’s complete bullshit.

  40. avatar
    Luis

    Simply,another question,could be Baviera and independent country?? If Cataluña could ,why not the rest of Europe?? This is the Europe that we want to build?? Really?? Nacionalism like nazis in everywhere, every corner?? Micro estates?? What understand people when European citizen talk about union?? Could be that?? Cataluña ,Euskadi ,Baviera ,Córcega,North Italy,Flandes….well come on with the racists and supremacists theories

    • avatar
      Xavier

      There are sooooo many countries in Europe that has much less habitants. Like Norway, Finland, Denmark, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. So, your argument is invalid.

    • avatar
      Mariona

      Ok so then I have to be Spanish by force, if I don’t want to be Spanish then I’m automatically a supremacist. How intelligent. You’ll get far with this mind.

    • avatar
      Luis

      You’re not all Cataluña, there are more that wanna be Spanish like me for example. We are majority.

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Luis, gilipollas

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Luis
      How dare you paint all nationalists as Nazis. What about East Timor or South Sudan?

      When you resort to Godwin’s law, you have lost the argument!

    • avatar
      David

      Freedom from nationalist that are ruining Catalonia :)

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Sorry, Spaniards are not hiper, extrem nationalist? please, enlighten me

  41. avatar
    Antonio

    The Catalans suffer a great repression and contempt, for the great majority of Spaniards and their government since the Franco era. It is the duty of the Catalan people to move towards a free democracy without complexes.

  42. avatar
    Pere

    Wikileaks

    ‘UK Parliament ‘fake news’ committee publishes US expert report showing claims pushed by Spain about Twitter bots & #Catalonia are false and, in fact, a massive 15,000 strong botnet spread anti-#Catalan narratives.’

  43. avatar
    Enrique

    Why new border?? Why?? If Cataluña broken with Spain all countries of Europe will broken, and Europa will broken!! This isn’t very intelligence…

    • avatar
      Mada

      Porque recortan derechos? Porque multan por estar leyendo poesia? Porque no dejan opinar libremente?

    • avatar
      Mada

      En cataluña se han recortado las libertades.

    • avatar
      Enrique

      Es increíble la realidad paralela que vives… Si en Cataluña se han recortado libertades yo soy astronauta. Vamos a ver, desde el respeto. ¿En qué país vives? España como cualquier otra democracia tiene sus fallos, pero España es pionera en libertades en España al contrario de la mayoría de países de Europa se permite tal libertad de expresión que desgracadamente permiten grupos políticos incostitucionales, como los partidos independentistas. Cosa que no se permite en Alemania. Ni en el 99% de los países del mundo. Cómo toda las democracias tiene sus fallos que todos los españoles conocemos y denunciamos. Pero de hay a decir que en Cataluña se han recortado libertades… Como no sea aquellas libertades de los no independentistas, no se a cuáles te refieres. Por ejemplo que obligen a saber catalán para ser funcionario, que relege el castellano y solo enseñen catalán, ¿Qué se haga declare la independencia unilateralmente con menos del 50% de los votos? Ahí quienes perdieron la libertad ? Los no independentistas… Y un largo etc. ¿A quien ha multado por leer poesía o por opinar libremente? Una cosa es opinar y otra es amenazar o agredir verbalmente…

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Enrique
      Spain is NOT Europe. It is a poor subsidised country with little military power. Just as in WW2 it has little influence and significance.

    • avatar
      Joan

      what border are you talking about? is there any border between italy and france? and if there is one is it a problem to you? aren’t we talking about an europe of the people? so what’s the problem with a new state within an open and free europe if their people want to rule by themselves?

    • avatar
      andres ginestet

      smaller units with a social control and strong citizen participation control much better corruption and impunity. The larger a structure is, the more it becomes authoritarian (empires) and breaks up, because authoritarism is a complexity reduction, and complexity reductions do contradict the rule of law in life, which is to diversify and create complexity. There is only one reason to want a unified global government: to defeat violence and the rule of violence as a complexity regulator. Humanity os not yet mature for such a task.

    • avatar
      andres ginestet

      Hola Enrique. Recomiendo por regla general que la gente se informe bien sobre lo que son violaciones de derechos básicos, antes de opinar. Te doy la fuente necesaria: Informe VIOLACIÓN DE DERECHOS CIVILES Y POLÍTICOS, Cataluña. Septiem-bre y Octubre 2017, Autor del informe Jordi Palou-Loverdos, Abogado cole-giado en el Il.lustre Col.legi de l’Advocacia de Barcelona e inscrito en el Con-sejo General de la Abogacía Española. Abogado acreditado ante la Corte Penal Internacional (La Haya/Países Bajos). Abogado colegiado en el Interna-tional Criminal Bar (La Haya/Países Bajos). Profesor visitante universitario de Rutgers State University of New Jersey – Center for the Study of Genocide and Human Rights (Estados Unidos). Miembro del Human Rights Institute del International Bar Association; Miembro fundador y vocal de la Junta de la Comisión de Justicia Penal International del ICAB. Premio “Valors” dels Il.lustres Col.legis d’Advocats de Catalunya 2015, por su contribución a la justicia universal y a la mediación y reso¬lución pacífica de conflictos.

    • avatar
      andres ginestet

      The WJP Rule of Law Index 2017–2018® report was prepared by the World Justice Project’s research team. The Index’s conceptual framework and methodology were developed by Juan Carlos Botero, Mark David Agrast, and Alejandro Ponce. Data collection and analysis for the 2017–2018 report was performed by Kate Adams, Juan Carlos Botero, Alicia Evangelides, Amy Gryskiewicz, Camilo Gutiérrez Patiño, Matthew Harman, Roberto Hernández, Alexa Hopkins, Jeremy Levine-Drizin, Sarah Chamness Long, Rachel Martin, Layda Negrete, Alejandro Ponce, Christine S. Pratt, and Leslie Solís Saravia, with the assistance of Abigail Cameron, Erin Campbell, Ben Carleton, Annette Coto, Loralys McDaniel, Carolyne Musyoka, Kelly Ranttila, Jessica Sawadogo, Nathan Treacy, and Katie Welgan.

  44. avatar
    Enrique

    Qué sentido tiene nuevas fronteras en Europa?? Europa se hizo para unir a los países y no dividirlos. Qué Cataluña rompa con España solo puede traer la fraentaciom de toda Europa y el fin de la Unión Europea.

    • avatar
      Toni

      Por suerte o por desgracia la Unión Europea es un club de ESTADOS, no lo olvidemos. El nacionalismo de estado (francés, español, alemán…) no desaparecerá tan fácilmente.

    • avatar
      Enrique

      Desaparecer no va a desaparecer, el nacionalismo es bueno y malo en su medida. Mucho nacionalismo genera fanáticos y la desaparición del nacionalismo pues creo indiferencia hacia tu territorio. Igual que en España hay sentimientos nacionalistas como Andalucía, Cataluña o país Vasco. A nivel europeo es normal que exista el nacionalismo español francés… Lo que hay que hacer es igualar las oportunidades entre todos los países, no poner trabas a uno para beneficiar a otro, etc. El nacionalismo nunca desaparecerá. Y hay que luchar contra el fanatismo, ese nazionalismo radical.

  45. avatar
    Oscar

    The people must to be free to decided his future, especialy in democracy. The corrupts politicians in Spain are stealing the money of all the Spanish citizens and nobody go to jail. Spanish politicians in Spain, put judges friends to judge his corruptions cases, the citizens in Spain, hate that and that’s ilegal. Catalonia made an election imposed by the Spanish government, but they don’t like the finals results and put in jail the mains members to the Catalan government and some of then must to go into exile, if not, they would also be in jail.

    • avatar
      David

      OMG how can you lie so much? You are a professional liar. Let me explain you that Spanish judges are independent from politician, and they judging all type of corruption, even the corruption of Catalan independent party CIU that has been stealing money from Catalan people at the same type that they were saying that it was the rest of Spain who steel money from them.
      You perfectly know that some Catalan politicians are in jail for breaking the law, not for their political beliefs, if that would be the case, they would have been in jail long before.
      Let’s get it clear!

    • avatar
      Oscar

      David. Don’t call me lier any more, if that’s your opinión seems that you’re not living in Spain. You know how many members of his political party and corruptions cases has the Spanish government PP?. Have you even hear some abou this?, I will tell you for your information and I will show you who is the liar. They’re involve in between 900 and 1000 corruption cases, maybe more and I do not say it, the Spanish judges say it. Also you must to know when a judge puts his nose a lot in his illegalities, they retire, they separate from the case or they incapacitate them so that they do not exercise more to keep it away from his corruption cases, you can check out in internet or google (Garzon judge), (Elpidio Silva Judge), (Olaya judge). And you will see who is the liar.
      Maybe the Catalans, they did not do things well, but the Spanish judges friends of the PP, have in jail many heads of Catalan parties, accusing them of crimes, that the German judge does not see. I remind you that they are in jail without having made a judice they call (prevention Jail) as a terrorists, they don’t kill nobody, they only think different and the Spanish governments don’t like this. In Germany they want to judge Mr. Puigdemont for steal public money for the 1 October in referendum, the minister of finance, says he did not spend nothing for that, then still I don’t understans why political prisoners.

      https://youtu.be/yPdOA6V7BZ4

    • avatar
      Alex

      Llamar mentiroso a alguien sin estar informado es muy de estos tiempos y estos lares…

    • avatar
      Alex

      Oscar Andreo sin duda!!

    • avatar
      Anonymous

      Alex, imagino que lo dices por David. Les tira mucho la patria, les mola que les roben, están engañados y contentos.

  46. avatar
    Bianca

    question is not correct, should be: under which circumstances could catalunya become independent?

  47. avatar
    Anne

    What about the spanish prosecuted in catalonia for being spanish? Catalonians are mot different, just their politicians. They share the same culture as other spaniards and their language can be learnt in few weeks (as I did) Those who doesn’t want to be spanish should not be allowed to use the services provided by Spain, lose their spanish passport and see what’s next. Hypocresy from few politians who want to live in a republica that most spaniards want too. What a lack of sight!

  48. avatar
    Màrius

    Yes, of course. Spain is not a democratic country. And Catalan people live oppressed by the Spaniards.

    • avatar
      Javier

      48% is not in democracy

    • avatar
      Michaela

      Indeed, it is. Central government is Spain is supported by less than 50% of population. Spanish constitution was approved by less than 50% its population. Spanish referendum to access the EU had much less than 50% participation.

      Do you know Javier what is not democracy? To send police to voting polls to stop a referendum. Or to not let a politician be elected as a president when majority of parliamentarians elect him.

  49. avatar
    Ștefan

    Isn’t it the issue ww2 happened because some other chaps decided the fate of a nation instead of letting its population decide? Imbecile question.

    • avatar
      Tom

      Simple answer. No

    • avatar
      andres ginestet

      And Catalonia was then and there the laboratory in Europe to test the acceptance of fascist ideology. Are we repeating history? yet another stupid question.

  50. avatar
    Jordi

    Catalonia it’s an invaded country by the Spanish fascist state, Spain fights against Catalan population to establish the Spanish sovereignty by the force and against the democratic elections results.

  51. avatar
    Molina

    Debating why Cataluña should independent be, but not debating if spanish politics must be in preson.

    The hypocrisy of Europe and a los of European citizen is so nice.

  52. avatar
    JorgeJak

    cialis online precios cialis peru

  53. avatar
    Rob

    Let me refute the arguments for independence given above, in the article:
    1) Catalans have always defined themselves a nation? Not always; Catalan nationalism only lasts for a small portion of Spanish history. Catalans did not always define themselves as a nation.
    2) A clear majority for independence? It is well know that, in terms of votes, the December regional election was won by unionists, not nationalists.
    3) The rigth to self-determination? Woodrow Wilson came up with this right in the 1920s mainly for the purpose of decolonisation, and the UN recognises this right to peoples who are either occupied by a foreign power or somewhat oppressed. The UN has ruled that the right to self-determination does not apply in this issue.
    4) Catalan language/culture not respected by the government? Catalan institutions have ben able, after 3 decades, to virtually exclude the Spanish language from Catalan schools and institutions, shops have been issued with fines if they write their signs in Spanish, and Spanish speakers are being discriminated against in many respect. Just read the personal accounts.
    5) Spain collects more taxes than it returns? This happens in any nation, does it not? It is even present in the EU, where the richer countries pay for part of the development of the poorer countries.
    6) Would independence allow more development? One of the reasons why Catalonia is one of the richest parts of the country because, as with the Basque Country, the central government set up the industrial activities there.
    Thanks for reading.

    • avatar
      David

      Well, we need to remind the history…
      1) In 988, Count Borrel II of Barcelona break off the vassalage to the Frank king Hug I. In 1137, after marriage between Count Berenguer IV of Barcelona and Petronila of Aragón, the Catalan counties joined the Kingdom of Aragón into what was later known the Aragón Crown. In 1476, Fernando II of Aragón married Isabel I of Castilla married (Spanish Catolic Kings) and, after the death, their son Carlos I inherited all their territories: first aparition of Spain in the maps (not the Roman Hispania, nor the Frank Hispanic Mark). So, my friend, tha Catalan Nation exists since earlier than you think.
      2) Independentist parties (JxCAT, ERC, CUP): 47,5% of votes; Unionist parties (Cs, PP, PSC): 43,45% of votes; En Comú Podem and others (not positioned): 8,58%.
      3) After the dead of Carlos II without heirs, in Spanish Succession War, 1701-1714, Catalans were positioned for the Austrias after years of centralization of politics in Spain, while Castilla was positioned for the French Bourbons. Felipe V one the war, conquered Barcelona (and so Catalonia), prohibited the Catalan language and institutions – New Plant decress. So yes, Catalonia was subdued and has the right of self-determination.
      4) Pure manipulation. Schooling in Catalonia is driven in Catalan, yes. But the time spent in Catalan language and literature lessons is exactly the same as for Castillian language and literature. Shops have been issued with fines for marking only in Castillian (they must mark both in Catalan and Castillian). If you live in Catalonia I’m sure you know that most of Catalan speakers automatically switch to Castilliab if you address to them in Castillian.
      5) I agree with you. The problem is the proportion: it’s not fair that the communities that most contribute (Catalonia, Madrid) are the ones that less receive.
      6) Funny. I suppose if the central government set up the most of Spanish industry there, the reason should be that there was already a good base for that purpose. Otherwise… was it a nice, altruistic gift?
      Thanks for reading.

    • avatar
      Pedro Vives Batista

      Rob, your comments can be proven false. I am sorry to say that. Facts can be checked. :) by independent parties.
      I hope for better times. For freedom and human rights for Catalans and Spanish people. It’s time for change.

  54. avatar
    Natxo

    Nooooop…. Nationalism isn’t a global policy in an global world

  55. avatar
    Mateusz Osiecki

    Under international law Catalonia has no right to indepence, as such move would breach the territorial integrity of Spain. Catalans have little possibilities of defending the thesis of their self-determination.

    Of course, the dialogue and negotiations between government of Spain and Catalan authorities is absolutely necessary in order to resolve the conflict peacefully.

    • avatar
      Eduard

      Legality is not the right and only way to judging situations:
      Remember that the Apartheid was legal.
      Colonialism was legal,
      The holocaust was legal.
      Segregation was legal.
      Not allowing women’s vote was legal.
      Slavery was legal.

      Until these weren’t anymore. Societies progress and emancipate. Catalonia is ready to stand on its own and leave Spanish colonial treatment behind. Independence is the answer.

    • avatar
      andres ginestet

      I thought international law backs minorities that define themselves as nations. Catalonia, Kurdistan, Scotland, South-Tirol, etc … are all minorities wishing to live their own identity. Am I mislead?

  56. avatar
    David

    Funny way of putting things! Only 2 of your 7 interviews MEPs support Catalonia’s independence (Eurosceptics by the way). However, in the “what our readers say” section, you only have the comment of a pro-independence Catalan. In addition, even if no country or governmental authority in Europe has recognized the referendum, your timeline still puts it as a fact. Guys, your article is just a big piece of disinformation. And if you really got the support of the Parliament, I would be very curious to see what the High-Level Group on Fake News and online disinformation thinks about your supposed “news item”

    • avatar
      Debating Europe

      Hi David,

      The format of Me&EU is that we take one comment and put it to seven different MEPs, one representing each of the main political families present in the European Parliament.

      That is not the only format for our debates, however. We also hold many debates (including several on the subject of Catalonia) that include a broader selection of comments.

      Also, you will notice that we did mention in the infographic that the proclamation of independence was unilateral, and we did not claim it had been internationally recognised.

    • avatar
      Salu

      These MPs do not represent their political families’ views on seccession, and not a single MP against seccession has been included, though there are many. Therefore, this debate with its voting is just another piece of manipulation to be used by nationalist media.

  57. avatar
    Héctor González

    Under my point of view, it all boils down to money. That is a greedly position. Anyway, the catalan goverment was on its right to claim better finance, but they have been use it to promove nacionalism in there. Nobody talk about the nacionalism risk, how they have been removing the spanish symbols and creating a fake tale about identity.
    My vote is against independence, not because I don´t want them to be; just because I don´t agree how politicians manipulate and make people to confront

    • avatar
      Alexandre Samper

      Catalans politicians just try to provide a response to a big part of Catalans, not the opposite as you point. Please, look at the history of Catalonia and you will see that there are no fakes. In terms of confrontations, Spanish politicians win elections promotion hate to Catalans among other Spanish regions; this is fact not opinion.

    • avatar
      andres ginestet

      Hector, I have the same issue, and this is why I want the independence. It all boils down to money. The elites pick a fight, and we pay for it, because we allow them to drive us, We vote those crazy alfa machos. I agree that the fight among elites is organized to mask a very rough and dirty corruption and impunity system in Catalonia and in Spain. In a Europe of regions, democracy works better in smaller units, and also with more currencies that can better adapt to economic cycles, devaluating themselves their own currency as to incentive the local economy. To fight corruption and impunity effectively, you need smaller political units. That is sociological standard. Europe should be a Europe of plurality, of small units that enjoy more direct democracy. Europe should not serve a stupidly monogamous plutocracy of finance, which wants to enslave European citizens for the sake of world dominance and complexity reduction. The IMF lead by Christine Lagarde is the most cynical instrument of dominance on planet earth.

      We as citizens want to enjoy freedom. Freedom implies that we enhance and vitalize complexity.

      The only point at which global governance makes sense is to defeat the system of violence, which reduces complexity in the first place. Violence works for all humans the same way. It unifies humans, because it makes them much less complex and bluntly brutal. This is why a common rule helps here. With no exception, violence deforms behaviours for all humans on planet earth on the same way.

      This is why public governance should be divided in at least 2 sectors: sector 1 for violence (it’s a very large sector) which is for all of humanity the same and is unified and monogamous. And sector 2 for diversity as a very diverse and complex sector which organizes life and diversity as a ground rule of life. This is a world of regions.

      The next question would be if democracy is the best form of rule and governance. I am not sure about it. It depends on the degree and the quality of education. Freedom is a matter of responsibility. Responsibility is educated.

  58. avatar
    Pol

    The growth of nationalism in Catalonia has been spread by the regional government of Catalonia with public money thrown into nearly 500 media outlets and the infiltration of nationalism in the education system. Catalonia is a region in which public spending is dependent on ideological and linguistic discrimination. Non-nationalist Catalans have been treated as second-class citizens for decades.

  59. avatar
    Pol

    The European Union is a “community” of “sovereign States”. It was not devised as a playfield for minorities to claim their own States thanks to the politics of nationalism that led to wars in the early 20th Century. The current territories of the Spanish State have been the same for 5 centuries, centuries before Italy or Germany existed as States. In the last millenium, Catalonia never had its own State.

  60. avatar
    Raga

    Spain’s regime is a shame for the EU. It’s much closer to Erdogan’s Turkey than to north-european democracies. That’s a fact.

  61. avatar
    josep benet

    It must be an independent country, Spain is only a default country, despite the big efforts from all the big spanish parties for denying it, besides that opposition parties ,to the current goverment caress neofascist ideologies. So let’s begin a new country born.

  62. avatar
    Salu

    It is not true that Catalan language has been damaged by Spain. On the contrary, the regional government of Catalonia has made impossible for half of Catalans to study in their mother tongue, which for centuries has been Spanish. Nationalist regional goverments have imposed a unique identity on a region which has been plural for centuries. As the Nationalist Government of Catalonia is used to, it has disobeyed Spain’s Contitutional Court rulings not to discriminate against students who want to study in their Spanish mother tongue.

    You have chosen no MPs against seccesion. Neither do these MPs represent their political parties’ views. Therefore, I cannot vote.

  63. avatar
    Jordi

    Spain needs a Nuremberg.
    Must end the Franco’s regimene.
    Catalonia it’s a nation and must to try it’s own future.

  64. avatar
    Joan Gil

    My vote is YES.
    As a catalan I could say that catalans could do more for Europe being independent that being part of Spain.
    We need our own laws and to organize ourselfs, to be more competitive, to construct more cost-effective infrastrucures (see AVE spanish high-speed train Network), to export industrial products and to develop serious R&D policies.
    We need an state that helps us, instead of an state against us, ans against our langage and our culture.
    Do you want a country on south of Europe more similar to those of center Europe? Help us to be independent.

  65. avatar
    Eduard

    YES. Absolutely. 1)Catalonia is treated by Spain as a colony and with no respect. From many points of view; economic, cultural, judicial, policial, psicological. This totally anti democratic. 2)The independence movement is a grassroots movement, not a top down political stunt. It has and will continue to have ample social support.3)Spain is Authoritarian, Francoist and extremely corrupt. Catalans are more democratic, negotiators and compromise seekers, they deserve to choose their future without impositions. 3)Catalonia is a grown up and responsible society who wants to govern itself, manage their own economy and their future. Spain is parasitic and drowns Catalonia’s potential down. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Catalonia deserves its own independent Republic.

  66. avatar
    Alexandre Samper

    Sincere thanks for initiating this debate. Yes, Catalonia should be independent from Spain; culture, traditions, language, orientation to create value, respect for the fundamental human rigths, management of public founds, … among many others, have fully opposite approaches by Catalans and Spaniards, deep and historical differences that makes no longer possible Madrid being the capital of Catalonia. Thank you.

  67. avatar
    Alexandre Samper

    Catalans politicians just try to provide a response to a big part of Catalans, not the opposite as you point. Please, look at the history of Catalonia and you will see that there are no fakes. In terms of confrontations, Spanish politicians win elections promotion hate to Catalans among other Spanish regions; this is fact not opinion.

  68. avatar
    Josep C. Vergés

    Your infographic is very misleading because you have only used Spanish sources or Madrid correspondents (same thing). Why no Catalan sources at all? The result is you make serious mistakes like ignoring that Catalan was banned or that French and Spanish troops occupied Catalonia in 1714, destroying its government and Cosntituion which had existed for 7 centuries. Inded the word Parliament comes from Catalan, which the English in Bordeaux copied (the Catalan parliament first sat 80 years before the English one). Catalonia was never part of Castile and the Spanish Empire (hence no Catalan speakers in America). By the way the English betrayed their allies Catalonia in the Treaty of Utrecht. Read a contemporary English account:
    https://larepublicacatalana.wordpress.com/?s=How+England+betrayed+the+Catalans
    Spain has tried to digest Catalonia since with disastrous results for democray and freedom.

  69. avatar
    Jose Luis

    The repression on catalonia is brutal, they attack the school, the language, the culture, the finances, the self-government, the politicians, the symbols, the PEOPLE.
    Spain is a totalitarian state
    #FreeCatalonia
    #SaveDemocracy

  70. avatar
    Toni Ponsà

    Catalonia would have to be what the Catalan citizens wanted. This is no longer a question of independence or nationalism, but simply of democracy.
    Personally, I think there are plenty of reasons for Catalonia to be an independent state: historical, cultural, sociological, economic, political, etc.
    For too long, Spain has submitted the political rights of Catalonia and has economically exploited it.
    If anyone had any doubts about this, it is only necessary to observe the repression that Spain is currently applying with Catalonia: repression of freedom of expression, violence against peaceful citizens, imprisonment of independence leaders, intervention on the regional government, intensification of economic plundering, etc.
    Europe and the free world should not tolerate this democratic shame any longer.

    • avatar
      andres ginestet

      agreed: it is a question of democracy and seeing if citizens will swallow bitter pills, because Catalonia is being used as a laboratory of political turmoil, as was Greece, to further enhance the privileges of the ethnically privileged (economic privileges of the very few) at the expenses of democracy. 1930 to 1934 was similar.

  71. avatar
    Pablo

    Many people think that Catalonia should continue in Spain because Spain is a strong country, a big country. But the truth is that Spain often does not watch over the interests of the Catalans and often puts obstacles in the way. The clearest example is that of the Mediterranean corridor, but we also have the case of the airport and many others, which show that Spain does not help the progress of Catalonia.

  72. avatar
    Juan

    Catalonia, as a society in the world, has the right to decide its future. Society must express itself freely and be able to decide what it wants.

    So far in the independence movement has proved to be a majority in votes, and seats.

    There is no silent minority, it is false. What there is is a unionism that has all the resources of the Spanish state, and the large Spanish companies that are very close to power.

    Spain is a very centralized country, a lot.

    Finally, I live and am from Barcelona, and there is no social conflict, no problems. In general, the Spanish press tries to create a false truth about what happens here. And what happens here is that it is the most peaceful movement of self-determination that there has been in Europe despite having a whole state against it.

  73. avatar
    Luis Camacho Sevilla

    O República de Catalunya o República Federal Española! Pero que mi estado, región o nación la gestione Catalunya, no Madrid!! Y fuera los Borbones, los Populares, los “Socialistas”, los de Ciudadanos y los fascistas!!

  74. avatar
    Anna Porta

    Menchen Sollten free sein. Auch die Volken.Die Katalanen sind nicht minderjährig. Wir sind nicht eine region, Wir sind eine Große Nation. Wir kampfen für Katalonia zu befreien. Das Problem ist dass die Spanien-Kastillien die Spanisch sprechen- invaded Katalonia. Sie mussen züruch nach Spanien, Sie glauben das Katalonia gehort zu Spanien. In Katalonia soll man Katalanich Sprechen wie in Danemärk danish. und in Deutschland Deutsch…. Die Kastillien wollen dass nicht akzeptieren, sie wollen Ihre Sprache uns imponieren. Sie respektieren auch nicht unsere Geschichte und Kultur. ,Warum denn Sind sie bei Uns!! ! Frau Arrimadas und Rivera (ciudadanos) sind nicht Katalanen.Sie wollen uns Zerstoren. Sie kampfen uns zu vernichten. Sie sind neue Faszisten Sie konnen seinen Hass gegen Katalonia nicht Kontrollieren. Ich sage lass die Katalanen in Ruhe leben! Wer wir teil von Spanien sein? Wir nicht!!!!

  75. avatar
    Dani

    Let the people decide. My vote, however, is yes.

  76. avatar
    Eduard Jané

    As the catalan people doesen’t feel respected in neither cultural and financial stuff it will be a feeling of independence in the majority of catalan pepople. Respect doesn’t mean that the spanish constitution tells that those facts must be respected. Respect must be done and evaluated in every and single element in the spanish society and government. People who think that is all aboubt money and financial stuff doesn’t understand nothing.

    • avatar
      Eduard Jané

      And the answer to the question is YES, Catalonia should be independent. It also would be great for the rest of spain as they will focus on improvement for they own.

  77. avatar
    Alex

    It is very difficult to have an opinion about it from a distance. To understand the Catalan question you must be Catalan.
    The real problem comes from several decades ago, where a constitution was signed that weakens the human rights of the peoples and gives continuity to the monarchy inherited from fascism.
    Currently Europe allows political prisoners in its member countries.

  78. avatar
    NURIA

    Tricky question from the beginning. The answer only depends on Catalan People, not on members of other countries. That is called SOBERANITY. The right question here is to ask whether Catalan People are allowed the right of every single community in the world to SELF DETERMINATION. And that should be the starting point. Catalan People have not been listened, asked and respected. And there’s no approach for dialogue, understanding or respect from the Spanish government. Difficult to make alliances with those who do not recognise Catalans as people with rights.

  79. avatar
    Joan

    and why not? people should self determine their own future by democratic rules, let people vote and decide. Nothing against Spain, nothing against Europe, we just want to beceome a new state and take our own decisions within a free and democratic europe in peace with the rest of the countries

  80. avatar
    Clyde Dlugy-Belmont

    The question of the independence of Catalonia should be in the hands of the people of Catalonia. Therefore, although I support its independence, I cannot decide for them.
    But I can call on Europe and on Spain to respect democracy, to open a dialogue line and stop the criminalization of ideas. This issue should have been resolved with a vote, not with desperate ways to draw world’s attention from one part and repression and violence from the other part.
    Let’s talk, we need it.

  81. avatar
    Jamie

    Why would Spain let that bunch of greedy Catalans with a victim mentality separate from them?
    I am sick of populism, that might only end up in a conflict or drama. Life is about union, not about separation. Country borders have been sewn with blood, and it is the last thing Spain needs.
    I have lived almost three years in Spain and I could never understand why Catalans want to secede… Spain’s government has made really bad movements though (sending police to stop the illegal referendum or not debating everything with the Catalans politicians).
    To all Catalans: having a different flag won’t make any differences in your lives, stick what really matters (your families, friends….)

    • avatar
      Toni Ponsà

      I don’t know where are you from but I make you just a question: Would you like that other people decided for you about your destiny or about the destiny of your country? I think you’d prefer to decide for yourself, woudn’t you? “Independence yes”, “Independence no”, “Independence I do not know” are just (important) opinions

  82. avatar
    Charlie

    Yes, Catalonia should have the right to decide its own future.

    The spanish government, supported by people completely blinded by their feeling of spanish nationalism, wants to put anyone who defends this idea in jail.

  83. avatar
    Herbert

    To have a new member who respect justice and law as well as human rights and democracy, a member with a economy very well working as well as with great motivated and smart population!
    It would be the best could happen for the EU

  84. avatar
    Isaac

    Spain only understands his language and his culture and does not respect the Catalan one. Spain’s history of cultural destruction around the world is proof of its intolerance and machismo, Catalonia should be free.

  85. avatar
    Fiona

    Catalans have the right to decide their own future as other all nations in Europe or from other parts of the world.
    There is no doubt that an independent Catalonia would be a kind of country similar to the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark or Belgium therefore a high developed, modern and full European state with a strong economy and advanced social policies.
    On the contrary nowadays Spain is still being a weak democracy which prefers jailing political oppositors and social leaders rather looking for an agreed referendum to know if Catalan people want really to remain or not in Spain.
    I believe that most Catalan people wish to vote again in an agreed referendum such as Scottish and Quebecois could do. Although the main problem is that Madrid is not Otawa or London. Madrid is still in the 18th century imposing their laws, power, and culture as did in their Spanish Asian and American colonies.
    The current fake-autonomous Spanish state is over. Spain today is a very centralist state under a phony “federal territories” brand. Spain is not and has never been a real federal state such as Germany or Belgium.
    Spain will never solve this own issue due to the clash of cultures inside Spain: pro Europe (most Catalans) against pro new “Spanish Empire” governance style where the unity of Spain is Sacred, Holly and protected by “God”. This kind of new semi-teocrathic state is not complying even their own laws. Examples of not complying the most basic laws:

    AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/spain/report-spain/

    UNITED NATIONS – HUMAN RIGHTS – Office of the High Commissioner
    UN expert urges Spain not to pursue criminal charges of rebellion against political figures in Catalonia
    GENEVA (6 April 2018) – The UN Special Rapporteur on the right to freedom of opinion and expression, David Kaye, urged Spanish authorities to refrain from pursuing the criminal charge of rebellion against political figures and protesters in Catalonia that carries a jail sentence of up to 30 years.
    “Prosecutions for ‘rebellion’ that could lead to lengthy jail sentences raise serious risks of deterring wholly legitimate speech, even if it is controversial and discomfiting,” said Kaye.
    “Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of every free and democratic society, and it will remain so long after the current political controversies subside.”

  86. avatar
    Donal

    A couple if points in the FOR section are incorrect.
    1. A clear majority of catalan voters are not in favour of independence. The pro independence parties got 47.5% (JxCat + ERC + CUP) of the popular vote in the 2017 catalan regional elections. They got 47.8% (JxSi + CUP) in the 2015 elections.
    2. Catalan language and culture is completely respected by the spanish govt. Since becoming a democracy the spanish government has devolved powers in this area and now catalonia has exclusive jurisdiction over catalan language and culture.

    • avatar
      Toni Ponsà

      About point 1: the results of a legislative election can not be assessed as if it were a referendum. In your assessment, you forget the votes obtained by a left coalition (“En comú podem”), a fraction of whose voters would vote “yes” to independence in a referendum (according to the polls). The democratic solution is very easy: to allow the Catalans to hold a referendum as it was done in Scotland or in Quebec.
      About point 2: This is simply wrong. There are many conflicts in this area, the most important with regard to teaching.

  87. avatar
    zwilnik fifty seven

    Lies:
    – Catalans have always defined themselves as a nation.
    Cataluña has boasted about its Hispanity whenever it has been convenient and up to the XIX century. They have, however been proud of their character, but not to the extreme of considering it a separate nationality. It is proven in the (Spanish) patriotic discourses (in Spanish), that accompanied the soldiers to the Cuban war. Catalan language was in the peril of extinction in the XVIII and XIX centuries not because it was forbidden but because the city literates preferred to use Spanish and the editors preferred to print larger editions.
    – A clear majority of Catalan voters want independence.
    That is false. In no legal election the total voters of all separatist parties have met or exceeded 50% of the vote, much less of the voting population. The reason for the combined seats of the separatist parties to be a majority in the regional parlament is the unfair assignation of seats to the provinces of Cataluña, and the law D’Ondt, that makes a vote from a citizen fo Girona worth 2.5 votes of a Barcelona citizen
    The 1-O vote, besides being illegal, convoked 16 year old citizens and up, in an effort to benefit from the biased educational system in Cataluña. Even so, 90% votes from a turnout of 42,3% amount to 38,7% (and that assuming the younger are considerably biased pro independence). Also the Generalitat hasn’t yet explained how their sum amounts to 100,88%, so we can simply disregard the results of 1-O.
    – The right of self-determination.
    The right of self-determination, what?. Cataluña is not a conquered former sovereign country, nor a former colony, nor a zone where there is a situation of war or repression or violence or any type of distress. It is one of the most prosperous zones of Spain.
    The catalan government subsidizes a circus of pseudo historians to fabricate legends about past glories of a supposed Catalan crown, that didn’t ever exist. Cataluña was a much respected part of the kingdom of Aragon, as it had two great ports and very smart merchants. Period.
    – Catalan language and culture insufficiently respected by the Spanish central government.
    Practically since the transition, Cataluña has the reins of its educational system. All public education classes are given in Catalan. Spanish is taught as a foreign language, 3 hours a week!. Stores are fined if they do not label their products in Catalan and in some cases if they do it in Spanish. You have to demonstrate a certain level of Catalan language to work in the public administration (which discriminates workers from other regions).
    Spain has supported Cataluña whenever they have requested help to organize international events or promotions.
    Occasionally the Premio Nacional de las letras españolas goes to Catalan writers, as it did 1984, 1989 ,1998, 2000, 2002, 2010 and 2015.
    Other prizes of national
    Before the democracy, Franco made 40% of the industrial investments for Spain in Cataluña.
    Sigue una lista de los premios a la literatura catalana concedidos en la época de Franco, me dirán Uds. si les parece muy reprimido.
    Premio de Honor de las Letras Catalanas
    ◦ 1969 Jordi Rubió i Balaguer (historiógrafo y bibliólogo).
    ◦ 1970 Joan Oliver (Pere Quart, escritor).
    ◦ 1971 Francesc de Borja Moll i Casasnovas (filólogo y editor).
    ◦ 1972 Salvador Espriu i Castelló (escritor).
    ◦ 1973 Josep Vicenç Foix (escritor).
    ◦ 1974 Manuel Sanchis i Guarner (filólogo e historiador).
    ◦ 1975 Joan Fuster i Ortells (escritor).

    Premio Joaquim Ruyra de narrativa juvenil
    ◦ 1963 Josep Vallverdú, por L’abisme de Pyramos.
    ◦ 1964 Carles Macià, por Un paracaigudista sobre la Vall Ferrera.
    ◦ 1965 Desierto.
    ◦ 1966 Robert Saladrigas, por Entre juliol i setembre.
    ◦ 1967 Emili Teixidor, por Les rates malaltes.

    Premio Josep Pla
    ◦ 1968 Terenci Moix, por Onades sobre una roca deserta.
    ◦ 1969 Baltasar Porcel, por Difunts sota els ametllers en flor.
    ◦ 1970 Teresa Pàmies, por El testament de Praga.
    ◦ 1971 Gabriel Janer, por Els alicorns.
    ◦ 1972 Alexandre Cirici, por El temps barrat.
    ◦ 1973 Llorenç Villalonga, por Andrea Victrix.
    ◦ 1974 Marià Manent, por El vel de Maia.
    ◦ 1975 Enric Jardí, por Historia del cercle artistic de Sant Lluc.

    Premio Prudenci Bertrana
    ◦ 1968 Manuel de Pedrolo, por Estat d’excepció.
    ◦ 1969 Avel•lí Artís-Gener, por Prohibida l’evasió.
    ◦ 1970 Vicenç Riera Llorca, por Amb permís de l’enterramorts.
    ◦ 1971 Terenci Moix, por Siro o la increada consciència de la raça.
    ◦ 1972 Oriol Pi de Cabanyes, por Oferiu flors als rebels que fracassaren.
    ◦ 1973 Biel Mesquida, por L’adolescent de sal.
    ◦ 1974 Desierto.
    ◦ 1975 Baltasar Porcel, por Cavalls cap a la fosca.

    Premio Lletra d’Or
    ◦ 1956 Salvador Espriu, por Final del laberint.
    ◦ 1957 Josep Pla, por Barcelona.
    ◦ 1958 Josep Carner, por Absència.
    ◦ 1959 Ramon d’Abadal, por Els primers comtes catalans.
    ◦ 1960 Clementina Arderiu, por És a dir.
    ◦ 1961 Josep Vicenç Foix, por Onze Nadals i un Cap d’Any.
    ◦ 1962 Joan Oliver (Pere Quart), por Vacances pagades.
    ◦ 1963 Joan Fuster, por Nosaltres els valencians.
    ◦ 1964 Josep Benet, por Maragall i la Setmana Tràgica.
    ◦ 1965 Jordi Rubió, por La cultura catalana, del Renaixement a la Decadència.
    ◦ 1966 Manuel de Pedrolo, por Cendra per Martina.
    ◦ 1967 Gabriel Ferrater, por Teoria dels cossos.
    ◦ 1968 Marià Manent, por Com un núvol lleuger.
    ◦ 1969 Xavier Rubert de Ventós, por Teoria de la sensibilitat.
    ◦ 1970 Joan Teixidor, por Quan tot es trenca.
    ◦ 1971 Alexandre Cirici, por L’art català contemporani.
    ◦ 1972 Joan Coromines, por Lleures i converses d’un filòleg.
    ◦ 1973 Maurici Serrahima, por Del passat quan era present.
    ◦ 1974 Joan Vinyoli, por I encara les paraules.
    ◦ 1975 Vicent Andrés Estellés, por Les pedres de l’àmfora.

    Premio Mercè Rodoreda de cuentos y narraciones
    ◦ 1953 Jordi Sarsanedas, por Mites.
    ◦ 1954 Pere Calders, por Cròniques de la veritat oculta.
    ◦ 1955 Lluís Ferran de Pol, por La ciutat i el tròpic.
    ◦ 1956 Manuel de Pedrolo, por Crèdits humans.
    ◦ 1957 Mercè Rodoreda, por Vint-i-dos contes.
    ◦ 1958 Josep Maria Espinàs, por Varietés.
    ◦ 1959 Josep A. Boixaderas, por Perquè no.
    ◦ 1960 Ramon Folch i Camarasa, por Sala d’espera.
    ◦ 1961 Estanislau Torres, por La Xera.
    ◦ 1962 Jordi Maluquer, por Pol•len.
    ◦ 1963 Carles Macià, por La nostra terra de cada dia.
    ◦ 1964 Joaquim Carbó, por Solucions provisionals.
    ◦ 1965 Víctor Mora, por El cafè dels homes tristos.
    ◦ 1966 Guillem Viladot, por La gent i el vent.
    ◦ 1967 Terenci Moix, por La torre dels vicis capitals.
    ◦ 1968 Jaume Vidal Alcover, por Les quatre llunes.
    ◦ 1969 Robert Saladrigas, por Boires.
    ◦ 1970 Montserrat Roig, por Molta roba i poc sabó.
    ◦ 1971 Gabriel Janer Manila, por El cementiri de les roses.
    ◦ 1972 Josep Albanell, por Les parets de l’insomni.
    ◦ 1973 Jaume Cabré, por Atrafegada calor.
    ◦ 1974 Beatriu Civera, por Vides alienes.
    ◦ 1975 Xavier Romeu, por La mort en punt.

    1942. Aparece el libro Rosa mística, de Mossén Camil Geis, editado en Sabadell e impreso por Joan Sallent en catalán.

    1944. Desde ese año, se hace obligatorio por ley que las universidades con Filología románica incluyan la asignatura de Filología catalana. Un decreto sobre la ordenación de la facultad de Filosofía y Letras, firmado por Franco con fecha del 7 de julio, introduce tres horas semanales de Filología Catalana en la Universidad de Granada. Josep Vergés, fundador de Destino en 1939 junto con Ignacio Agustí y el poeta Joan Teixidor, establecen el 6 de enero de 1944 el premio Eugenio Nadal que daba a conocer a la joven Carmen Laforet y a su novela Nada. El galardón descubrió a narradores tan importantes como Miguel Delibes, Ana María Matute, Rafael Sánchez Ferlosio o Carmen Martín Gaite.

    1945. Con apoyo y subvención del Gobierno, se celebra el centenario de Mossén Cinto Verdaguer.

    1947. Se otorga el premio Joan Martorell para novela en catalán. Son premiados Celia Suñol, por su novela Primera Part, y El cel no és transparent, de María Aurelia de Campmany. Se crea el premio Ciudad de Barcelona.

    1949. Para narraciones cortas se crea en la Casa del Libro el premio Víctor Català, así como los premios Aedos para biografías, Josep Ysart para ensayos y el Ossa Menor que ideó el gallego-catalán José Pedreira, que se cambió luego el nombre por el de Carles Riba a la muerte de éste, en su honor.

    1951. Se otorga un premio a la poesía en catalán con la misma cuantía económica que a la española. Posteriormente el premio se amplia a otras actividades culturales, como teatro y bellas artes. José Mª Cruzet funda Ediciones Selecta para obras escritas en catalán. En colaboración con Aymà concede el Joanot Martorell al insigne veterano de la pluma Josep Pla por su creación El carrer estret.

    1952. En la visita de Franco a Cataluña, en el mes de junio, se inaugura la cátedra Milà i Fontanals para el estudio científico de la lengua catalana.

    1955. El poeta y escritor José Mª de Sagarra recibe la orden de Alfonso X el Sabio con ocasión de la publicación de su obra en catalán titulada Memories.

    1956. Nace el premio Lletra d’Or, sin recompensa económica y tiene como galardón una “F” de oro, con la que se distingue al mejor libro del año anterior escrito en catalán. El primero en recibirla fue Salvador Espriu, por Final de Laberint.

    1959. Los premios barceloneses Crítica se incorporan a la producción en catalán.

    1960. El Centro de Lecturas de Valls, inicia un curso de lengua y literatura catalana de carácter público. En Barcelona se crea el premio Sant Jordi para novela, dotado con 150.000 pesetas, cantidad análoga, intencionadamente, a la del Nadal. Con subvención del Gobierno se celebra el centenario del poeta Joan Maragall.

    1965. El gran poeta y canónigo de la catedral tarraconense, don Miguel Melendres, edita su obraL’esposa de l’anyell, un poema en catalán de doce mil versos. Encuadernado en rica piel blanca, lo lleva el Arzobispo de Tarragona, doctor Arriba y Castro, al Papa Pablo VI, que recibe complacido esta singular muestra de la lengua catalana que le llega de España. El Ateneo Barcelonés monta un curso de Filología Catalana. A los Premios Nacionales de Literatura, se le añade el Verdaguer para producción en catalán.

    1966. Barcelona rinde homenaje a su ilustre hijo Maragall, en el que intervienen Gregorio Marañón, Pere Roig, José Mª Pemán y Ruiz Jiménez. En los jardines que llevan el nombre del poeta, en Montjuic, se le eleva un busto. Radio Tarragona organiza a través de sus antenas unos cursos de catalán con profesores especializados.

    1967. La Diputación de Lérida dota una cátedra de Lengua catalana. La Diputación de Barcelona acuerda dar cursos de catalán en todos los centros culturales dependientes de la corporación y fundar la cátedra de Lengua Catalana en la Facultad de Teología de San Cugat (Barcelona).

    1968. Editorial Destino completa el Nadal con el nuevo premio Josep Plà, concedido a Onades sobre una roca deserta, de Terenci Moix. En la lista de quienes lograron este galardón figura lo más florido de la narrativa catalana: Baltasar Porcel, Teresa Pàmies, Cirici Pellicer, Marià Manén, Enric Jardí, Llorenç Villalonga, Jaume Miravilles o Jordi Sarsaneda. En Gerona se otorga por primera vez el premio Prudenci Bertrana

    1969. Nace el Premi d’Honor a les Lletres Catalanes, destinado a la consagración de escritores noveles.

    1970. Comienza la publicación de la Enciclopedia Catalana.

    Tomado de Dolça Cataluya (https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2014/03/cuando-franco-premiaba-libros-en-catalan/)

    ….. I’ll continue later…

  88. avatar
    Toni

    Let Catalan people to decide their own future!!!!!

  89. avatar
    Xavier Mir Oliveras

    Whether or not we should be independent, it’s a question we Catalans should decide by voting, as Scotland and Quebec did. A political solution is what Catalan representatives have been asking for since 2012 in order to know what people want. Before we declared independence last october the 27th, there had been 18 attempts to ask Spain for a legal referendum. That is why we had to try it by ourselves and we did it on the 1st of october 2017. The problem has always been the negative answer from Spain. They are not facing this as a political problem that requires a political solution, but as a legal and criminal one. Those who believe that dialogue and politics are the way, they should ask Spain to begin dialogue. Europe’s position should be a mediation to help resolve things politicaly. We are a chance to show that these kind of problems can be solved without wars or violence, which is the way humanity has solved them through the centuries.

  90. avatar
    Gekokujo

    Your debate comes too late. Spain is following turkish style policies against Catalonia. By now two milion (and growing numbers) of catalans, and their families, do not see any other solution than independence.

  91. avatar
    Eric

    Ha de ser independiente Cataluña ? Esta pregunta corresponde a varias preguntas en realidad :
    Es Cataluña una nación ? Fue definido el concepto de nación en el siglo XIX por Ernest Renan : « Une nation est une âme, un principe spirituel. Deux choses qui, à vrai dire, n’en font qu’une, constituent cette âme, ce principe spirituel. L’une est dans le passé, l’autre dans le présent. L’une est la possession en commun d’un riche legs de souvenirs ; l’autre est le consentement actuel, le désir de vivre ensemble, la volonté de continuer à faire valoir l’héritage qu’on a reçu indivis. »
    Para resumir, una nación es un principio espiritual compuesto por una parte por una rica herencia de recuerdos comunes (el pasado) y por otra parte por el consentimiento actual, el deseo de vivir juntos y de seguir valorando la herencia recibida. O diciéndolo de otra manera, la voluntad de vivir juntos, el sentimiento de constituir una comunidad, también de ser distintos de los demás, una historia y un territorio propio.
    Y Cataluña lo posee todo. Por tanto, es una nación (lo que implícitamente reconoce la constitución de 1978 al mencionar las nacionalidades de España).
    Hay una legitimidad para organizar un referéndum ? La legitimidad no puede limitarse al examen de la Carta Magna española : esto es sólo la legalidad jurídica ! Si examinamos en la historia el concepto, vemos que por ejemplo la Revolución de 1789 no era legal, sino una clara violación del ordenamiento jurídico del reino de Francia. Vemos también que el gobierno del general Pétain en 1940 era legal, al ser nombrado por el Parlamento !
    El concepto de legitimidad es distinto del de legalidad !
    A mi parecer, es legítimo hacer un referéndum cuando se lo pide una parte importante de la población, la regla para aceptar el resultado siendo la de la mayoría (lo que hicieron en Québec y en Escocia, donde los derrotados reconocieron el resultado muy democráticament).
    Lo que no es igual a la oportunidad de aplicar un resultado adoptado en un país muy dividido : puede ser que lo major sería una solución intermediaria….
    Pero no dejar en el ámbito democrático el problema es la peor política (soy francés para aclarar este punto).

  92. avatar
    Jordi

    No doubts,by rights,centuries ago they’d be an independent state.nowadays,simple,let them vote.

  93. avatar
    Pedro Vives Batista

    It’s not all about the money. It’s silly to think that. First of all it has to do with history and with the role of the Spanish State Before and during Franco’s dictatorship and in the last 40 years. They have proven time after time that they still are not respecting democracy and human rights. In Spain there are streets and monuments to honor Franco and many other fascists. While many Catalans still didn’t recover the bodies of their executed grandparents while knowing where they are. The growing wish of Catalans for Independence has also to do with the fact that people don’t see an other way out. In fact I believe that the Spanish state is to blame that there is a mayority for independence now. They have used the legal system many times to destroy new laws and agreements by Catalan Government. This has been going on for long time. And now it even puts good politicians in prison and sends others in exile. Everybody in Catalonia or Spain in danger now. musicians, writers, teachers etc. People can end up in prison for no real reason. It has gone so far that there in no return.
    Catalonia needs Help against a Spanish Force gone crazy. It’s very clear. Catalonia wants dialogue, always, but that’s hard when de other partner is hateful and wants to destroy you. There is enough prove of that.
    Spain should free all prisoners first and accept the results of last elections. Europe has a really bad role so far. they should have called back Spain earlier.
    Catalonia is a Country with a history of peaceful demonstrations with very nice people respecting all opinions. the will to decide your own future doesn’t make you a Nationalist. Pro independence people are from all different political orientations and they are not extreme Nationalist !!! In the contrary, most of them have roots in Spain and so they have family in Spain. There is no hate against the Spanish people. I hope this Debate will be without hate. And if there is hate see where it comes from.

  94. avatar
    Josep Vilaplana

    Of course should be independent. This is the very best for catalans, Catalonia and for spain also. There are a lot of causes and motivations to achive the independence

  95. avatar
    Fiona

    All nations have the right to self determination and therefore decide their own future. Catalonia decided on the 1st October Catalan Referendum to be free from Spain. That horrible day more than 900 peaceful voters were beaten up and injured by Spanish Police and Paramilitary Civil Guard who tried to avoid the right to vote about Catalonia’s future.
    Spain in fact has a very weak democracy because has no real separation of powers, the Judiciary is absolutely controlled by the Executive.
    For this (non fair Justice) and others most Catalans want to be independent to become a modern European state with a strong economy and advanced society such as Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, or Austria
    Most Catalans believe than a Catalan Republic will bring more prosperity to Catalonia and also for Spain which will have to solve their other territorial problems with another tools different than no dialogue, imposition, or violence.

  96. avatar
    Bert van Santen

    If the Catalans decide by referendum yes, they should become independent

  97. avatar
    Alicia

    We really need decide it by referèndum, all the catalans must expres their opinion. My own opinion is yes, we are a Nation and Catalonia needs to bé independent.

  98. avatar
    david

    yes it should become independent, mainly because Spain is not doing anything to convince catalan people to stay. Solidarity is in the Catalan´s DNA, but solidarity only make sense when exist some empathy – proximity- respect.
    A clear Majority in Spain dont respect other points of view, no matter the reasons behind and this is the pillar of a Democracy. let´s only VOTE

  99. avatar
    Christer

    I can understand Catalan´s want to be independent. The problem is that I think a lot of people underestimate the problems that comes with the exit. Like being a small country and not in the EU without som many central social functions like a Central bank and customs (Think of the new EU border against Spain) for example. And are people really so shure all the buisness companys are going to stay in Catalonina. And all the peolple (close to 50%) who wants to stay in Spain. Will the remain in Cataloina? I´m not shure. Well good luck anyway:) You gonna need it.

  100. avatar
    Bill Shipsey

    Catalans should have the right to decide on whether they wish to be independent. Just as the Scottish were given the same right. It is clear that those who want independence equally want to remain part of the EU. The jailing of the Catalan leaders for peacefully expressing their opinions and rights of expression and to vote is shameful and a denial of the human rights that is central to European values.

  101. avatar
    Chris

    Yes, let the people decide, there is nothing like freedom

  102. avatar
    angel ortiz

    Spain has a high quality democracy (one of the best in the world as for the economist recognizes). Catalan culture and language are well protected, some even may argue that at the expense of Castillian language). If anything, the persecution is on the opposite direction (The current regional president has written that the rest of Spanish have dna defects, and even compared us with hyenas). Catalonia (as a part of the Aragon Kingdom) is a foundational region of Spain, a rich region that historically started its wealth based on the protected Spanish market for Catalan industry. So Spain is the common house that Catalans helped to build and design, and it is built in a way, among other things, to accommodate Catalans and everyone else as well. So if it is going to be changed , it is everybody decision, not only the decision of one part (no matter be this part Catalans or any other part of the Spanish people) There is no credible historical base (at least no more than the one than any other of the hundreds of European regions would present if willing to stretch the arguments), no persecution of Catalan culture to justify this independence movement.
    Under these conditions, It is very hard to feel sympathy for people that wants a rich region to separate from the poorer (as an average) ones.

    Raising new frontiers, is not progress

  103. avatar
    Aris

    Catalonia’s independence will open Pandora’s Box in Europe. After Catalonia who? Europe is full of ethnic minorities and many of them will demand the same.
    Spain has a constitution, according to that constitution, none Spanish province has the right to declare independence.

    • avatar
      Klaus

      So what?

  104. avatar
    Alex

    Any group of people with a geographical continuity has the right to self-determination and the right to fight the ones who try to prevent the realization of this self-determination, for whatever reason that group chooses. The Spanish constitution is irrelevant in that matter, since it is in direct violation of that right, and as such – it can, and should, be fought as a constitution of oppression.

    • avatar
      Klaus

      Любомир if they can why not.
      For better or worse, having bad relations with neighbors and lacking infrastructure for economic autarky is their problem.

  105. avatar
    Ivan

    There is no such thing as independence within the EU so what would be the point ? You can only be truly independent by leaving the Brussels empire.

  106. avatar
    Diaconu

    If they become independent they get out of EU and need to reapply.

  107. avatar
    Michele

    No, and don’t be ridiculous please

  108. avatar
    Marco

    There’s not a single rational reason for them to be independent

    • avatar
      Klaus

      History, Identity, the Will for such, etc.

      I would say there isnt any rational reason for Spain to let them go

    • avatar
      Marco

      Klaus there isn’t a single ratio al reason for Catalunia to separate. If you wish you can find specific history,identity and even language even in many single cities around the world. There’s no rationality in it

    • avatar
      Andreu

      I want the Catalan people to decide on many issues, from schooling, to language and culture, transport facilities, health, foreign affairs, commerce, taxation, immigration, etc. I feel the Catalan people often make better decisions for my own interests than the Spanish. Simply because they have other priorities, other interests, other views.

      Decisions by a majority in the Catalan Parliament (Sometimes even by 90%) are simply not relevant because Spanish institutions take over. So I need independence so that the democratic decisions of my people are taken into account. That way people’s lives in Catalonia will be better.

    • avatar
      Ivan

      Freedom from tyranny is always a good reason.

    • avatar
      Marco

      Andreu according to your reasoning most cities in the word should have the right to claim Independence

    • avatar
      Marco

      Ivan let’s be serious

    • avatar
      Rémi

      Ivan British humor?

  109. avatar
    João

    Should every country be independent from Eu?

    • avatar
      Rémi

      Of course!

    • avatar
      Max

      We know which answer is most convenient for Uncle Vlad!

    • avatar
      João

      Max We know which answer is most convenient for Angela!

    • avatar
      Pedro

      Aparently you have yet to come to terms with what is the best answer for you…

  110. avatar
    Manolis

    If that’s what they want, YES.

    • avatar
      Max

      What if it’s NOT what they want? And what about the interests of the spaniards and europeans who live in Catalonia?

      What about the Catalans who live in the EU?
      What about the city of Barcelona where staying within the EU is what’s most popular?

    • avatar
      Manolis

      I think a REFERENDUM with at least 55% YES, INDEPENDENCE, can solve yr questions.

  111. avatar
    Jochen

    This is retarded. We are talking about more integration of all the EU member states whereas they would rather take a step back to regional independence. Ridiculous.

    • avatar
      Rémi

      Divide and conquer…

    • avatar
      Andreu

      Remember under Spanish law Catalonia is a “nationality”, not a region. Please don’t use the sort of language fascists used during the dictatorship (1936/39-75/78).

  112. avatar
    Artur

    Well, that’s up for the Catalans to decide in a proper referendum, isn’t it?

  113. avatar
    Scott

    Let them decide. It is their choice, not ours!

  114. avatar
    George

    Shouldn’t that be their choice?

  115. avatar
    Tony

    Debating Europe with another awesome debate. You shouldn’t even bring this to debate as an independent Cataluña, which will never happen, will be out of EU as per EU by-laws.

  116. avatar
    Jay

    Yo digo que sí. I say yes. I’m from Madrid, I’ve talked about this issue extensive. About the illegality of the separatists, BUT also about the senselessness of the Government. Spain isn’t a monolithic, static thing. We’re still in that fascist mindset that everything has to be done one-sided. Be it the “central” government, be if the separatists. All unilateral. “My way or no way”. And it’s because of this backwards thinking that we’re trapped in this political/institutional blockade. No, Catolonia isn’t Scotland. Stop the stupid comparison. The history and legality of both situations are diametrically different. So stop the comparison. (And now we’re playing childish games about yellow ribbons…)
    Spain is a nation of nations. Countries in far worse positions, with far worse histories and atrocities have managed to reach the 21st century embracing their multicultural background. Spain is Spain, yes; but it’s also Euskal Herria, is also Catalunya. It’s the different regions and the different languages. From green and cool Galicia to the sunny, hot Andalusia, and subtropical Canary Islands.
    Give them a right to say what paper they want to play in this national project. If they want out, then they MUST face all the consequences. Including staying out of the EU. Including a hard border with visas. And why should Spain be in charge of their military protection, huh? Every bit of national investment, all the railways and hospitals… That’s a debt Catalunya has created with Spain, in my view.
    Yeah, Catalunya is a very modern and avant-garde region, attracting investments and tourism and arts. But they have what they have because the Gov’t invested what it invested in the interest not only of the Catalonians, but also of Spain as a country. That’s a truth—I don’t care for separatists distorted rhetoric.
    You want out? Be out. All way out. Not halfway out and halfway in. Being Catalonian and being EU? Nope. If you want to be the voice of separation and determination, you can’t be part of a project of integration and greater unification. Grow up and face the odds.

  117. avatar
    Marios Nicolaou

    Of course YES.
    The people have voted.
    The people have decided for an independent Catalonia.
    EU must adopt the Catalonia people decision and recognise Catalonia as an independent state.

  118. avatar
    eusebiomanuelvestiaspecurto

    I am against the independence of catalonia the most important is that we need a strong in the world

  119. avatar
    pep puig i boix

    I’m for the right of self-determination of all peoples in the world. And of course, the catalan people has this right. It is recognized in the Article 1 of the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights and this International Covenant has been signed by the Kingdom of Spain. So the Spanish Government and the Spanish Supreme Court are violating the Covenant ant its own Constitution.

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