Where now for Catalonia? After a chaotic independence referendum (which Catalan leaders say was a resounding vote in favour of secession) how can the current crisis now be resolved? Could the region unilaterally declare independence from Spain? Is there any way to avoid that outcome? And, if not, how will Madrid react?
Catalan officials are reporting that 90% of voters in the referendum on 1 October backed independence, with a turnout of 42.3%. However, figures are unlikely to be entirely accurate as even Catalan officials admit the vote was severely disrupted, with hundreds of thousands of ballot papers uncounted. The Spanish government has – following the opinion of the Spanish Constitutional Court – dismissed the entire vote as illegal.
Media reports have shown Spanish police tackling and pulling demonstrators and voters, and Catalan officials say that over 800 people have been hurt. The BBC is reporting that “the majority [have] minor injuries or suffered from anxiety attacks”, yet images of riot police attacking protesters have indeed been shocking.
What’s the best way to resolve the Catalonia crisis? How can tensions be defused and calmer heads encouraged? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
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The violence has pretty much forced Spain’s hand to accept a referendum. the EU should mediate for an agreed upon set of rules on date, the percentage needed, and an agreement to abide by both sides.
The thing is all Spaniards should vote, as the law says. Nationalist catalan only wants to vote themselves leaving the rest out of the referendum. This is why illegal
Yeah but that’s a bullshit law. Slavery was legal. The Holocaust was legal. Falangismo was legal. The fact that something is legal doesn’t mean it’s right. And giving someone in Andalusia the right to decide if Catalonia stays a part of Spain is bullshit.
I was sympathetic to Spain until yesterday. Catalonia was at best a province of the Kingdom of Aragon. If all of historic Aragon (so Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia) wanted to secede, I would say they have that right because their merger with Castille created Spain. But for just one province to want to go doesn’t have much precedent. At the same time, you can’t crack skulls of people voting, even if you don’t support the vote. Barcelona isn’t Baghdad. So now they have to have a referendum all sides will agree on.
@Nono Martínez Pascual
It is a ‘loaded’ law!.
The law does not allow Catalonia the right to ‘self-determination’.
Look at the Falklands, look at Gibraltar, look at Scotland – they are and can ‘self-determine’.
Spain, like a lot of Latn countries, is good at ‘playing democracy’ but perchance will Spain and the like ever be as democratic as most Northern EU nations?
Declaring independence.
What justification the Catalonia people have? Can Chinese and all other ethnic minorities living in Catalonia vote independence? Can Barcelona people vote for their independence from Catalonia too?
Guardia Civil go to jail’!!!
Guardia Civil and the National Police Department were defending the fulfillment of the Law yesterday. That´s their job and they were obbeying the judicial sentence which condemned this “referemdum” for attempting directly to the democratic Spanish Constitution, ok???
If you don´t obbey the laws you go to jail, not the police!
Nowhere in the judicial sentence was stated to uss vilence against peacefull population. Having said thet, I dont blame the forces, yes the fascist government
Yolanda, if black slaves of america were disobeying their masters, the slaves would be breaking the law and the masters had the right to murder them, because it was according the law. Stop talking about burocracy, start talking about human rights. Catalans had their own laws but they were destroyed by Phillip of Bourbon back in 1714, and Spanish laws were imposed and kept till today.
Charles you can’t be serious about comparing the black slaves of america with Cataluña.
Yolanda, does “obeying the law” include beating elders, pulling people by their hair and beating them up? Their only crime was trying to vote, for God’s sake!
“What’s the best way to resolve the Catalonia crisis?” – Peacefully through dialog. “How can tensions be defused and calmer heads encouraged?” – With the resignation of those in the Spanish government who okay’d the police violence; with the the punishment & removal of those violent police officer/government thugs; and by listening to the will of the Catalonian citizenry.
The best way is no longer possible. Madrid should have waited for the referendum to take place and not intervene, even though it was unlawful and unconstitutional. Then, depending on the results, the Spanish government should have taken the rational and reasonable approach, keeping violence to the minimum, but still insisting on the unity of the Spanish nation. Violence should have been used ONLY as a last resort and ONLY if the Catalunians resorted to it first.
Too bad now it’s to late for that and more violence that could have been avoided will probably follow.
there wasnt´even a census, that of yesterday was just a pulse to the Government and to the rest of Spain.
Even so, it’s really important how things look from the outside and how they are presented. International diplomacy will be very important to this situation. As you said, few people from outside Spain understand the situation fully, and exactly because of that it’s important that the Spanish government present themselves in the situation as the lawful, reasonable and just side, instead of the side that sends police and army to beat and harass unarmed civilians.
The government had already won the case in the courts. Why the use of violence against voters in an empty attempt to demontrate the strength of the country? Well backfired
Yes. That would require a government with brains in their heads though, not a pack of chimpanzees who only know how to do the Nazi salute.
Agreed 100%
Yolanda, I’m assuming you were not there because there was a census. I can’t speak for every voting station, but in the school I was in we used the online census that had been anounced in the morning. We had to wait several hours because it was down. When it was time to vote we let the elderly go first so they wouldn’t have to keep standing or be caught in any police action, and afterwards we went in. Again, I can only talk from my own experience, I am not sure how it went down in other stations.
The best way is no longer possible. Madrid should have waited for the referendum to take place and not intervene, even though it was unlawful and unconstitutional. Then, depending on the results, the Spanish government should have taken the rational and reasonable approach by taking legal measures, keeping violence to the minimum, but still insisting on the unity of the Spanish nation. Violence should have been used ONLY as a last resort and/or ONLY if the Catalonians resorted to it first.
Too bad now it’s to late for that and more violence that could have been avoided will probably follow.
Also, now the Catalonians will be seen even more as martyrs and freedom fighters instead of separatists, which makes Madrid’s political position a lot more difficult.
It’s funny how people from abroad of Spain give their opinion without knowing anything about Spain’s history and about the democratic laws which form our Constitution. Violating laws can’t be accepted . The referendum violates the Constitution. Cataluña is and has always been part of Spain and independentists aren’t a majority by far. Moreover most of them are sons and grandsons of people from other parts of Spain, mainly Andalucía, who moved there to work years algo, people quite easy to manipulate due to the inferiority complex they have and the lack of culture and perspective in most of the cases.
Let people vote yes or no. Why do so many people have a problem with that? There will be a rederendum at some point, and the more this government denies peoples rights, the more chances for a yes to an independent Catalonia. I want to vote for Catalonia to remain in Spain. Why wont you let me?
They say the same about Portugal but still here we are out the influence of shitie castilla
Portugal became an independent country. Something that never happened to Cataluña or any other parts of the Castilla Kingdom. Don´t mix up and don´t let your hate for your neighbours surface please!
Portugal became and they tried several times the last one 1974 Franco had a plan prepared to invade Portugal. Castilla it will be shit forever. And your king was living in Cascais when Franco was killing everybody. catalunha galiza that by the way is Portuguese has been stolen and pais basco have all the right to be independent. And I’m not even talking andalusia lol
“It’s funny how people from abroad of Spain give their opinion without knowing anything about Spain’s history”…not really, this is an open forum on which a question was raised. People can only give an opinion based on what they know but the fact not everyone is an expert on Spanish history doesn’t mean they are not entitled to have an opinion.
Personally I would like to know exactly what the people of Catalonia think is going to be materially better for them if they became independent?…if (like the Scottish referendum) it is just a case of an ingrained hate of the ruling government and a nationalistic desire to wave your own flag, then that to me is not a logical basis to demand independence
We’d love to her rid of this «people»…but half of the population of Cataluña isn’t separatist!Did you know that?
And if they wanted a referendum they should have used the legal way!
End
So I have read what you/ve Yolanda and this is what I get rom it. Catalonians can only vote if if Spain ‘allows’ them because they legislated to make sure Catalonians could never vote. If they don’t like it you can make them unwelcome in their own land? Why do you think you have more right to your opinion than they do? No one should have to ask permission to hold a vote it should not be for governments to sanction a voting process. If catalonians want a referendum that is their DEMOCRATIC right to decided to do so. You may not like the result but it is your DEMOCRATIC right to disagree. You call for spain to ‘rid themselves or thsese people’. So you support ethnic cleansing based on the fact that you disagree with their opinion. Fascist.
It’s funny how Spanish people from abroad of Catalonia give their opinion without knowing anything about Catalonia’s history, culture and society. Let Catalans vote and respect our vote; that’s the way to resolve the problem.
International advisors certified the referendum process was correct , and was NOT ilegal. They also certified de extremly violence applied by Spanish police had significantly affected the results. More than 700.000 bullets where stolen by the police when removing ballota from more tha 400 sites , and thus could not be counted. Solution internationalmediation monitored by European authorities
@Yolanda RG
Oh, some people do remember – I remember Franco and his contrived Constitution that denies Catalonia the right to ‘self-determination’.
Spain tries to hide behind the legality of its skewed/asymmetric/unfair constitution and talks about ‘the rule of law’.
The ‘rule of law’ is nothing, and means nothing when it is designed to suppress democratic rights – take a look at China for instance.
Yolanda RG, you’re completely ignorant about spanish and catalan history.
Please, stop writing lies and go back to school, and please, don’t study history with spanish history books, since most of them are full of lies, since spanish tend write history as TVE and newspapers do nowadays, as if Franco’s were still alive.
Only the TRUTH is badly injured by ‘opinions’ like yours. I was born Basque, now living close to Barcelona for 21 years, senior engineer working for a multinational company and traveling most of my time, 52-year old,married, 2 grown-up kids. I never wanted to secede… in the past. Now all I want is to get away from the Spain that you and many others represent. It hurts deeply to double-check how most Spaniards are absolutely manipulated by the filth poured by all the ‘official’ media, everybody just repeating the same slogans with no critical filter whatsoever. You’re living in a different time, the kind of people that would support colonialism, slavery, etc if you could. Luckily the world is changing, even if you’ll never notice. Many Catalans are marching for a modern, really democratic country to live in. We have been badly beaten by the ‘trolls’ just for trying to find out (peacefully) how many people would support one way or the other. The country we are looking for is not yours, sorry.
“Cataluña is and has always been part of Spain”??? And you dare to talk about people from abroad not knowing Spain’s history? Catalonia was forced to be a part of Spain after a war, in 1714. Go back to school and stop talking bullshit!
The State Security Bodies have to protect the Law and the Spanish democratic Constitution!!! Of course violence is not an answer for anything, but Police and Guardia Civil just defend themselves when being attacked by those breaking the law yesterday. Don´t blame the innocents!
Bollocks. Standind hands up is not attacking anyone. The images speak for themselves
The first priority of the policy is to defend the population and maintain public order. So did the Mossos act
Chema Carrasco they just answered when they ´ve been attacked.
they were defending the Spanish population, right, not people attacking the rights of the rest of Spanish violating the Constitution with an illegal action. If I make something illegal they´ll go for me, too. That´s what they did yesterday. Protecting the Law and the majority of the population.
What about people putting their children as human shields? Very brave too. Bah!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213636649532102&set=a.2619856177226.145157.1279813233&type=3,
throwing stones and then protecting themselves with their children…No more comments. And the police there..did nothing, of course!
It´s clear you are one of them. Fortunately you are a little minority in Spain.
Of course,not many people from Spain is suscribed to this page in English… I might be a minority here but not in Spain.
I’m not a goodist like you,sorry, but when someone attacks I understand that you have to defend, which is diferent to applausse the use of violence that you are saying I’ve said, me a simple woman.
You are not only putting in my mouth what I haven’t said but you are also a narrow minded sexist!
Visit Spanish pages and comments and you can check the feeling of Spanish people.
Yoldanda sounds Just like a Trump supporter. Scared of change, nationalistic and blame everyone else for her irrational fear. One could be forgiven for assuming she is a white supremicist.
of course you have no idea of what is going on in Spain…or about me either. And don’t insult me please.
Yolanda RG
You say:
“Police and Guardia Civil just defend themselves when being attacked by those breaking the law yesterday. Don’t blame the innocents.”
Well than have a look at this:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10213694268367994&id=1143517483
Innocent police officer has to defend himself, by jumping from several steps above, on top of a guy, who is already being pinned to the ground by TWO other policeman at second 10 of the video.
At nearly the end of that video, another officer has to defend himself, by kicking somebody who is trying to get up…
In my opinion, you should grab a dictionary and have a close look at the real meaning of the words DEFENSE and SELF DEFENSE!
If you can bring yourself to do just that, you may get (at least a little) surprised!!!
And don’t try to get me wrong! If a police officer is being attacked, OF COURSE he has all the right to defend himself!!!!
But i think that what you can see here (and in tons of other videos too), is just not the case!
Defending themselves?!
That is an lie
Those who say Catalonia should push for amending the Spanish Constitution should be aware that the amendment procedure for certain clauses was —deliberately— made so rigid and complex that these clauses are de facto unamendable.
These independent policitians and their blind followers just want to obtain more money from the Spanish State or avoid the justice in their dark corruption issues…Cataluña is a privileged part of Spain with more competences than any other including an own police that is on the court now for not having defended the Constitution yesterday. Furthermore ,m Cataluña, never was an independent State, before Spain was Spain, it belonged to the Corona de Aragón ( Aragon Kingdom)…Just have a look at a history book and stop listenging to gossip and populists ones!! And of course stop paying attention to the tabloids!
http://estudiandosocialesestoy.blogspot.com.es/2014_02_16_archive.html
autonomy, caring about people, decentralization
A 99% of Spanish people is today supporting the State Security Bodies. We dont´want Spain to disgregate nor to have another Civil War just because of a gang of bastards!
Are you joking? 99% of Spaniards support the use of violence? Speak for yourself, and post clearly: I support the use of violence against peacefull voters
Support the Police and Guardia Civil, yes. Not the violence. They attacked first, right?
I support the use of violence when I´m attack first, of course!
Don´t put in my mouth what I haven´t said.
more than 2M, a gang of bastards? haha
if you want to make people believe there were 2 million …ok. :)
You don’t want Spain to disintegrate? Could have fooled me!
Cataluña is part of Spain
Cataluña’a population is more than 8Million. The whole of Spain more than 46M
And the best way to keep them being happy citizens of spain, is using sticks, kicks and rubber balls.
OHHHH YEAHHHH!!!
what you want…
Will be 38M soon. And next time, when you want to protest against something you don’t like about your government and your skull gets hit and you start bleeding, remember what you said today.
Me aburres …
No hay más ciego que el no quiere ver… (There is no more blind than he does not want to see )
Best way is that the pigs leave the streets and go back to their carrying cages.
federation
Federation state
The spanish government is right, E.U. is sufficient for all. Federation stat is a non sens.
United Spain, United Europa. 2 million voted? No way.
How spaniards like the bla bla, let people vote, what is wrong with that?
Szomorú, hogy ilyen tyúk eszüek szavaztak !
Rajoy must quit! Struggling the referendum was the worst choise ever!
True
With violence obviously. What happened yesterday is a blueprint but what will happen across the EU when Brussels forces you to accept their United states of Europe nightmare. Europeans have learnt nothing form their history and are destined to repeat it. Thank god we are leaving :)
Michael Lievens
The British have no need of luck. :)
http://uk.businessinsider.com/liam-fox-promises-to-sign-40-free-trade-deals-the-second-after-brexit-2017-10
Emmm….so does the Mayor of London have the right to call a referendum on London leaving the UK and staying in Europe?
if you pay i will tell you. it is so simple!
The referendum was both illegal and stupid. If Catalonians are so high and mighty that they can’t bothered to help their fellow Spaniards (the use of taxes paid in Catalonia to help improve the economy of other regions was allegedly one of the motivations) their lack of solidarity is reason enough to be sure that as an Independent Country they will never be a part of the EU. However, there was no need for repression, that was playing into the hands of the separatists and reinforcing their position with echoes of Franco. Both governments failed, the National and the regional. Both should be preassured to resign.
Well, while other regions do not pay as much taxes as Catalonia does and they are the poorest of spain but they still manage to stay in surplus while Catalonia has to suffer deficit, you can’t call it lack of solidarity, that’s a fact. Catalonia is holding big part of Spain with it’s economy, but because of that, Catalonia is forced to continuously ask for a loan to the spanish government to stay safe, and this is what creates debt. But with the independence they will no longer debt itself, now they have 37% of public debt that would be sorted with the independence
FActs. GDP in Catalonia is 20% (Contributed of course by the taxpayers, not by the Generalitat-Catalonia Government). If there are 17 autonomous communities, the objective would be to place GDP at around 6%. Between 20% and 6% there is a significant deficit, it implies that Catalan citizens and companies contribute 3.5% of the rest.
It is not about sustainable solidarity, but about seeking just solutions. Among them, look for solutions so that the communities with smaller GDP increase it.
On the other hand, other communities with high GDP, have an economic agreement, which simplifies means that all their GDP is returned to them in full.
In Spanish we say … la gallina de huevos de oro. Well, you see, it’s not that simple.
I disapprove of the separatist movements and this was no exception but the way Madrid handled this was atrocious. They only made it worse for themselves and now look like thugs in the eyes of the world. Wtf Spain? Beating up peaceful voters?
When I was a schoolboy I saw a video about a ” riot” in Spain. It looked nasty, vicious and large scale. Then the video showed an alternative less ” close up” rocording/ video in which it was clear a few drunks were throwing chairs. The media love a good story and a riot rather than a few drunks is a ” good story”. Nobody was killed as a result of the Spanish police trying to stop an illegal referendum. I am not aware of any serious injuries amongst those trying to vote, although a few may have been. You appear to have been a naive victim of the tricks of the media in regard to supposed over reaction by the Spanish Police……
And by the way….If Catolonia does become independent, will be OK for a local council in newly independent Catolonia to arbitrarily call a referendum for its local council area to rejoin Spain?
The referendum was a joke.
To start with, there are mechanisms for such processes, but they decided to break the law.
Secondly, among the people who voted “YES”, many of them are punishing the central government for the austerity measures taken after the crisis. Measures designed within the EU recommended framework. Measures that put Spain on tracks to recovery.
Those measures created lot of hatred against the government in the lower economic echelons of society.
Also the ruling party is full of corrupt politicians, increasing the hatred.
That hatred was funneled by the corrupt Catalan politicians towards central government.
All this noise and mess is allowing the corrupt Catalan government politicians to divert attention from their corruption.
All Spaniards want a better government, more transparent, less corrupt, but we already have democratic mechanisms to change government every 4 years.
If we are not happy with the elections results, we shall wait until the next elections, and push for change, not try to override the valid elections with threats of secession.
If Catalans break the law, in a democratic state like Spain, encouraged by corrupt leaders in Catalan government, police is put in a difficult position. How to enforce the law?
A cleanse from corrupt politicians would heal the system in the whole Spain, and support for independence would lower down back to pre-crisis levels.
Note: I wrote from Barcelona, living here since April.
Beware that, if you support the Catalan process, you support the destabilization of a democratic legal framework.
I bet you don’t want to see that in your own country.
@Jose Quintans
CORRECTION!.
Legal framework = YES!
Democratic – NO!
42% of the population voted .. case closed .
56%. Get informed
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017
U should get informed friendo
of what cense? of what population? Get informed
Read the article .yiundint have to be a genius to see how many people actually voted. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017
And the sources are taken from generalitat de Catalunya . Case closed
56%? That’s what tv3 says?
Imanol Recio Erquicia haha exactly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX4eZ1fpYwA
If Catolonia does become independent, will a local Catolonian Council with a Spanish speaking majority be allowed to arbitrarily call a referendum in favour of rejoining Spain?
Give them some territory so that they can leave Spain for once and for all.
Yeah, that worked for the jewish, didn’t it?
We’d love to, but half of the population of Cataluña isn’t separatist!
Those can stay 😉
So you endorse ethnic cleansing?
Ethnic cleansing??? You take drugs? Wtf are you talking about?
You all have to decide: People above State or State above People. The rest is easy.
Being independent as the majority of its people wishes for long time.
@George Boletsis
What percentage of people voted for the EU in the last EU elections?
Based on your anti-Catalonia logic the EU is a fraud too!
I am not catalan, but I feel very sad and shamed of Spanish Goverment.
The best way to resolve it is to allow them (catalans) to make a Referendum, it’s the most democratic process to finish this crazy situation. In Europe we have good examples to follow, so why Madrid is using force and violence against citizens that only want to vote in a peaceful way ?? Even threatening, using force and inpoiding ballot boxes more than 2 million catalans achieved to vote.
Please man dont try to simplify an issue you dont know. Breaching the law and Court judgements lt is no pacific. Be unrespectful with police and avoid them to do their job (by judge’s mandatory) it is not pacific. And maybe u dont know but there were no requirements to vote so with 12 years old u could vote, being not from Catalonia u could vote, and there are cases from people voting 7 and 8 times in different places. Very democratic… criminal law shall be applied as it happens in most of European Countries,
Se te va la olla Mario SC. Invéntate más cosas anda.
Through democracy, of course! Violence will only lead to independence faster.
Block Spain!
Mr. Rajoy (and likely the King Filipe VI) didn’t handled the Catalonia issue as it imposed to. Now, the “day after” will be quite hard to put things on track again.
The king has no power to interfer…. it is a democracy…
Not true. The King is the state chief.
what king? Spanish king is a Walt Disney joke. He is now in the wc …
Good job Guardia civil :)
Repeat referendum under international supervision, in peace. If it is independence Catalonia’s people will, Madrid should respect and acept the divorce.
Let ALL spaniards vote!!!
Yes! On spanish subjects.
Y claro quê a Cantabria no le toca el problema! Pero a lis bascos, galegos y catalanes el tema es mui sensible. Esto es mi opinion despues de trabajar casi 25 anos con companeros de distintas autonomias.
Pois acho q tinhas que ter ficado mais tempo lá . Eu quero votar no meu , Espanha. Não gosto que me roubem. Assinado : um galego que ama Portugal
Aliás estes gajos são uns xenófobos , a dizer que espanha rouba , espanha não é apenas Madrid . E os canabros têm tanta história como Cataluña mas eles sempre a achar q são diferentes . Tristeza
Roi Pedrosa Que baixo caemos.
Roi Pedrosa , ui, se se sente espanhol e “ama Portugal” é melhor termos cuidado consigo ou ainda nos espeta uma faca pelas costas. Nós portugueses sabemos bem o que significam esses vossos “amores”. Galego que é galego é galego e mais nada. Ceice Galiza!
Roi Pedrosa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXq_8tjl_Zs
to let them have a proper referendum within an pre- referendum campaign so both sides they sould be expressed their thoughts and also to inform catalonians that in a case of independance they’ll have to reapply again for their EU membership amd also they’ll have to establish a new curency and embasies around the world that is they must know also what is the cost of it
They tried a lot of time for 7 years. Spanish Goverment has ever say NO way. So, which way remain to follow?
Federalism on EU level and depend Federalism in all member-states
Right, so the EU aims to be the next Spain, thus it is so quiet about the subject. We democrats have noticed that already…
stop making propaganda anti-spain
Spain is making it’s own anti-Spain propaganda…
Jeff Greensmith do you sincerly think that journalists would lost their time making propaganda anti-spain for free? Soros marxist are promoting this sinc begin. nacionalists spanish from catalonia are more nacionalistas than others spanishs else where. only immigrants and non-spanish will buy journalists BS.
Deve ser piada este…
José Bessa da Silva passsou-se
Alves Henriques , passado é um português que apoia o espanhistão e a sua dictadura…lol
“Virai costas a Castela” … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXq_8tjl_Zs
José Bessa da Silva não vais conhecer niguem mais anti-espanha do que eu. quem luta para espanha devolver olivença? eu!!! quem luta para espanhois se matarem entre eles? Tu!!! achas bem fazer propaganda para eles se matarem uns aos outros??? nao achas que isso é ir longe demais??
tu apoias a ditadura abrileira que matou 3 milhoes de pessoas em africa entre 1974-2002.
matar 3 milhoes de pessoas é “muito democracia” né??
Arresting it’s promoters. The same way any legitimate government would arrest anyone perpetrating a coup.
Governments want their batons, rubber bullets, water canon etc. Democracy allows citizens to raise issues, peacefully protest, and share information bringing others to their cause…and could vote differently in future.
Catalonia is not just a Spanish sovereignty issue, it is now about remembering torture and bloodshed to reach democracy.
Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin are not so distant past to be irrelevant.
The point of a democracy is the right to vote. Whether it is to wish for independence , what candy tastes best or to pick what colour shoes the ministers should wear. It doesn’t matter what , when , or why , but if the voting right is lost , then so is the democracy status. No minister or king is going to stop this fact. And no court of justice can still call itself just if it denies people a voice.
A functional EU would embraced the vote , .. any vote , about anything.
What they do with this vote is a different matter entirely.
Refrain from fascist brutality and find political solutions, either autonomous regional councils or independent states, but this issue is now clearly showing how fragile human rights and democracy are. EU and member countries need to stand for the right of peaceful protesters, regardless of whether governments agree.
The Spanish government has lost its credibility with the Catalonians ,
Spain should have been more open and let the Catalonia decide for its future, like England gave a chance to Scotland ,
From now on Spain has become another Yugoslavia ,
And more regions to follow Catalonia , not only in Spain but in all Europe.
We are Catalans, not Catalonians 😉
Oriol, sense ánims d’ofendre :
igual com aquì diem nueva york í no new york, en anglès es diu catalonians… ✌💪👍
No conoces lo que paso. No tienes derecho a hablar solo por las imagenes de tv. que solo las ponen para subir audiencia no conoces España ni sabes su historia ni las mentiras que cuentan los independentistas no te dicen que utilizaron niños para votar ni para pegar carteles niños pequeños mira yotube y despues hablas
Sí, sí Amparo Novoa Riola. Lo estuvimos comentando juntas cuando estábamos en el punto de votación. Ay, no, que te pilla un poco lejos
Democratic debate in whole Spain for all regions and see if the law needs to be changed and this type of referendums allowed. Also to see if further autonomy could be given to different regions. Based on the Constitution such decisions must be made on a national level and Catalonia tried to go against the Constitution which is the worst thing to do in a democratic country.
Spain it’s not a democratic country.
Exit ciao ciao, one way ticket no tornis!!! Adeu
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/un-rights-experts-criticise-spanish-efforts-to-block-catalan-vote?CMP=share_btn_fb
It’s an illegal referendum and Spain acted correctly . And with 42 % of the total registered voters voting in this , I don’t see what all the fuss is about . https://www.google.gr/amp/s/elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/29/inenglish/1506680598_177837.amp.html
Over 50%, 90% agree on the independence and more than 700.000 kidnapped ballots.
Oriol Munuera Roqué I’m sorry my friend but I believe the generalitat de Catalunya more than just fake rumors ..
42 per cent of the electorate, thousands of kidnapped votes, 90 per cent in favour, massive police violence, and George can’t see what all the fuss is about…
Jeff Greensmith yes can’t. See it . 42 % is nothing . The majority of the ppl didn’t vote so the referendum is marginal
As for the kidnapped voted I don’t comment on fake rumors
Had Spain allowed and organised a proper referendum we would nit be discussing fake data, kidnapped ballots etc….but catalans had to make do with what they had benn left with and getting over 2.5 millon votes is a resounding succes considering.
The referendum was not really needed anyway….last regional elections the pro independence parties reached more than 50 per cent of the seats in the catalan party so these parties already had the mandate to go ahead. The referendum would have been a better much better endorsement but not a must. Catalans had already spoken.
You are evil, not an uninformed or just an ignorant, YOU ARE EVIL if you think that Spanish police behaved correctly. That simple.
Alexandra
You are evil, not an uninformed or just an ignorant, YOU ARE EVIL if you think that Spanish state behaved correctly. That simple.
Alexandra
Support and good luck for Catalans from Pakistan
We’d certainly love to get rid of people going against the law…but did you know half of the population of Cataluña isn’t separatist!??? haha.That’s the problem
I’m surprised.. If it is so then a free and Fair plebiscite must be insured…! What the majority thinks should be implemented
Voting maybe? Like Scotland?
LET THEM VOTE .. Thats all they want, is that such a crime ?? In a FACIST Europe it is.
Just let them vote on a legal referendum. Is it really too much to ask for to do like the brits and scotland??
All rajoy did was give independists more voice. Can rajoy and PP really get more dumb than this??
To start with Spain should be expelled from the EU for the use of sheer brute force against unarmed populations. Then it should be taken to court in Hague due to human rights disrespect.
Don’t be ridiculous. The Mossos (regional catalan police) did it harder in 2011 against a indignados demonstration and you, the nazionalist, didn’t complain at all.
Man, I’m a nationalist you bet, just not from Catalunya, or spain for that matter.
Independecia para Madeira e Açores já!
Roi Pedrosa , força, em Portugal a nossa constituição permite a autodeterminação. É a diferença entre uma democracia e uma palaçada africanizada como a espanha. Infelizmente para si os açorianos e os madeirenses estão rindo da sua cara de pastor de camelos agora mesmo…lol
José Bessa da Silva 1. Permitir o direito à autodeterminaçao nao define uma democracia. Ex: a URSS permitia esse direito 2. Na redaçao da Constituçao espagnola se debateu se incluir o direito a autodeterminaçao e os nacionalistas catalães votaram em contra… Antes de falar, voce se informa né?
Teresa Del Riego Sánchez , ah, claro, porque o voto na constituituição é democracia, mas o voto num referendo é crime. É a lógica típica de castelhano. Não diga asneiras cara pastora! Acaso referendaram a inclusão de um artigo para autodeterminação na Catalunha? Claro que não, mas mesmo assim sua excelência tem a audácia de dizer que “os catalães recusaram”. Não recusaram não, vocês centralistas é que recusaram. Assim como recusaram rever o sistema fiscal, recusaram rever a constituição, recusaram mais autonomia, recusaram um estado federal, recusram um referendo legal, etc. Espanha não é uma democracia, é uma farsa!
Let them be separate
Yeah! And then FC Barcelona should not be allowed to play in “LA Liga”!
The Catalan Soccer Federation can reach an agreement to play another league, the French, for example. But there are two points against your speech: La Liga is rulled by insane amount of money with the spectacle that the clubs bring, with “El Clássico” as the bestselling match. Are they eagering to renounce at that? And we, the catalans, are not ruled by the soccer 😉
What sense on this? The barcelona FC wants a catalan state but they want to remain In Spanish league… I thought that any pro independence movement wants to create their own institutions. But these nazionalists want to be Only catalan for certain things and Spanish for others. And allways according to their convenience.
Thats not thrue. They only want to be free ,as you.The Catala only need, can be able to speack their language and be themseves, like anyone.
Sorry for my english.
The whole argument is nonsense. Monaco plays in the French league so why can’t Barcelona eventually play in another country’s league?? Continuing this nonsense arguement…why do sometimes the Spanish cyclist tour or the Tour or the Giro start abroad? .
If you think that the future of a country is ruled by football, then you have a serious problem
Wat the world is going on aĺl is in chaos omg
Could the Åland / Ahvenanmaa model of autonomy/demilitarization in Finland be a solution/compromise for Catalunya to stay in Spain? Just grasping for ideas here.
Independence
Ja están tan apenado los golpistas !!no.lo pueden disimular las caras de risa son puritiyo nervios !!Ala ovejas borregos a seguir la doctrina de president
Vosotros si que sois borregos. La construcción de la frase lo dice.
freedom for catalonia,help,help
It’s not about Catalonia, it’s about Castile. Yesterday there was no democracy, there was repression. Franco came back in the body of Rajoy.
Si entiendes como democracia daltsrte las leyes entonces tienes razon
Pero seguir con ese pensamiento y ya podeis empezar a despediros de la comunidad europea
Pero que mierda de mentira
Un referéndum ilegal los cuerpos del estado hicieron su trabajo dejad de mentir
Votar ilegal…..abrir la cabeza a ancianos en cambio esta bien para ti…..
Solo tienes dos calificativos.Nazi Españistani.
LA LLUITA CONTINUA!
Catalan friends told me that as kids they were beaten in the school if they spoke Catalan instead of Spanish. It takes a lot of time to heal such wounds. Now the government just generated a new wawe of bitter memories – probably the stupidest thing they could actually do.
BIG truth, well said!!!
NAGY igazság, jól mondtad!!!
Bullshit. You spaniards can invent anything about your imaginary friends. I don’t care about what you may say, what the Spanish goverment did yesterday is just unforgivable. Bye!
Your Friends didn’t tell you the truth, sorry.
How old are your friends? It is awful what happened to them. Democracies evolve and today in Catalonia public schools only teach in catalan. If you want to study in spanish you have to pay a private school. As a Spanish, I agree with that. Catalans are bilingual and they can’t lose their languages because it is their own identity
Jose Luis Alamo Oh really. I bet they did.
And they made papers with photos of mayors who were disagreed with this referendum. And they invited the people to made a list with the name of the people Who didn’t want to vote.
Teresa Del Riego Sánchez Should be about 50 today… I agree. It wasn’t a special topic, they just mentioned it offhand at the time – it stuck with me though. To be fair, things like this happened in other places too – but it always leaves a mark
Jose Luis Alamo Nope, we talked about this about 15 years ago.
Teresa Del Riego Sánchez They should he about 50 now – so probably happened in the early seventies? Still, such memories remain – once you were officially treated as an enemy in your own homeland you will not forget it.
Jose Luis Alamo, habla del pasado. De que con Franco castigaban y pegaban a los niños si hablaban catalán. No digas que es mentira
You should have in mind that Franco died in 1975 and the Constitution was approved in 1978, so Spain has only been a democracy for around 40 years. And nowadays it’s the other way around. People get discriminated if they don’t speak Catalan, even though Castellano (commonly known as Spanish) is an official language in the whole country.
The separatists are quite racists with Spaniards who are from other regions.
En Catalunya se hablan los dos idiomas indistintamente, no se recrimina a nadie por hablar el castellano y desde luego no somos racistas. Cathrine García Johansson no creo que hayas vivido en Catalunya si fuera así no dirías las sandeces que has dicho. Venid a Catalunya y comprovad por vosotros mismos que somos personas normales, pacíficas, acogedores y como en todos sitios de may diversa ideología.
Jose Luis Alamo whether you agree or not with the referendum does not change the fact that catalans and basques were prohibited from speaking their own language under franco…
Cathrine García Johansson i know many speakers of castellano living in bcn who do not speak catalan well, including people born or raised there. There are a few catalans who discriminate against Spanish speakers, but most will happily speak Spanish instead of Catalan, even if they do not speak it as fluently as castellanno
I can agree. Spanish government really acted extremely stupid. People are even more determined to quit Spain now.
Usted no está lo suficientemente informado y quiere opinar. Así lo único que va a conseguir es decir idioteces.
European Union should further stop preaching about democracy elsewhere hence they couldn’t support one within it backyard. It was a big show of shame yesterday in Catalonia.
Right for self determination is enshrined in the Charter for indigenous people, therefore they should be allowed to exit Spain if majority says yes.
indigenous people? seems you absolute haven’t got a fucking clue about spanish history
They have a different lenguage to the spanish one, appart from that we are all the same people. as a spanish person I like Cataluña. Why is it going to be taken away from me? Why don’t I have the right to decide along with them, why the rest of Spain just can’t decide.
it’s just all a money issue. Independency movement has grown massively during the recent past years economic crisis. They are one of the richest parts of the country. Catalan politicians have been manipulating and misleading the iliterate catalan masses from schools to nursing homes against the rest of the country.
It is not true. It’s not a money issue. It’s a a cultural issue, language, traditions and political opinion. And why the rest of Spanish people wants to decide for Catalán territory? It’s have not sense at all.
There are a lot of Catalans who sees themselves as Spanish, but they are being threatened by the separatists. On Spanish tv they showed how the same persons went to vote in different locals yesterday, a journalist was able to vote 5 times with internet vote, photos of injured people has turned out to be several years old… And many Catalans who want to continue in Spain didn’t vote because the elections were illegal anyway.
Yes, some of the police force used far too much violence, but don’t believe everything you see in media, the separatists are good at manipulating.
Oh yes, by the way, the leading politicians in Catalonia has stolen huge amounts of Spanish taxmoney by changing figures of for example health expenses. Some of them to finance their fight for independence and most of them seems to have disappeared to bank accounts in Panama and similar places. They are actuallygoing to be prosecuted, but if if they gain independence that will not happen.
This is a lot more complicated, than it might seem at first.
@Víctor Izquierdo
Spain has wallowed as a 2nd tier country for centuries due to its macho and corrupt culture in no small part.
If Catalonia wants to embrace the facund rather than the fecund then let it have the right to ‘self-determine’.
Spanish law means NOTHING if it tries to strangle those states/regions/cultures that want to self-determine.
Such wickedly undemocratic laws exist in China and Russia today – the fact that said laws are indeed laws does NOT mean that they are fair, are moral or indeed should be followed.
Please, inform yourself little better. This is not about self determination but about money.
Matias Magnno – bullshit – That’s the vague excuses pro – independence are trying to present to the rest of the word to break away. I’ve been to cataluña in multiple ocassions and know quite a few catalan people. Traditions/culture/people, with small local variations, are pretty similar all across Spain. They have another language, that’s all, which i respect and would learn if I lived over there.
Have you heard of Jordi Pujol? That’s your man. First to put the seed of hate with a vast amount of lies into the catalan society against Spain once the country was opening itself to the world after the Franco dark decades. Turned out to be working just for himself, not Cataluña, nor Spain- one of the biggest thieves in democracy. This kind of confrontation is what he needed to carry on looting, making others responsible for all the bad in cataluña. A perfect smoke screen.
And the rest of Spain has a lot to say and decide about the independency of any of its regions, since: 1) it will have a massive impact in all of the rest regions. 2) Any region has received economic support from the central government for years and years. 3) It’s taken too much time, blood and effort to shape and make up what Spain is and represent today in the modern world just to be diminished by the irresponsible choices of a group of misled manipulated people.
Don’t think you are Spanish by how your surname looks, but what is sure is that your opinion on this is well biased by who you are coupled to (sorry, couldn’t help to try check your profile).
Ask around to any pro independence if they would break away if they weren’t richer than the Spanish average.
Read and get a bigger picture of the scenario mate. Don’t just believe and get strung along by the manipulative TV3 and the pro-independence Catalan politicians. There’s more to it than just that.
Que tengas buen dia y que la sensatez se anteponga a toda esta locura.
Debating Europe, La Grande Region, maybe? Couldn’t such a thing not be an idea? What they are doing there, going beyond the country borders… surely there’s something useful in what they are doing? Council of the European Union, European Commission, European Parliament
jail for all the members of catalan Govern. Control for the spanish government (art. 155 Spanish Constitution)
Que te quiten el trabajo, de tu casa, y sigues con la duda por vida, mientras ellos, tus políticos hagan los suyos. Que seas muy feliz.
No se de qué estás hablando pero si se que en todos los países hay problemas. Supongo que hablarás del tuyo claro
Perdona, tendrias que vivir en Cataluña para poder hablar… Seguro que cambiarias de opinion. Si vives y no lo sabes, resultará que te importa muy poco la cultura y los problemas de los que estan siendo reprimidos.
Pues échale la culpa a los pujol y a puigdemont q os están llevando a la ruina
Te ha faltado un “viva franco” al final de tu argumento
estais rabiosos porque vuestro delirio independentista no va a prosperar. Ningún país excepto Venezuela, os apoya, sino al orden constitucional de España y al Estado de derecho, o también todos los países de la Unión Europea que apoyan a España son franquistas?. Después del butiffarendum quien os va a dar crédito?. Nadie! Así que deja de decir payasadas anda. Mi apoyo a la guardia civil y policía nacional, demasiado poco os dieron. Los mossos son unos cobardes y los veremos en los tribunales y a puigdemont y compañía que vayan a la cárcel y los trate un psiquiatra porque son además de unos delincuentes unos psicópatas.
Acabas de retratarte como ser humano por llamarte de alguna forma decir q demasiado poco nos dieron será pq a ti te lo han dado todo hecho claro seguramente tú no tienes respeto por otras personas con diferentes ideas y no sigo pq ya traspasaría la línea de la educación q me han dado para ir directa a tu nivel
Como os han lavado el coco amiga. Tu nivel es la estratosfera donde podeis crear vuestro pais catalán. La policia se dedicó a cumplir una resolución judicial y pidió a la gente q se fuera, si no se van los tendrán q desalojar y si se resisten y agreden a los policias es normal q reciban. Los provocadores fueron la gente haciendo barricadas obstruyendo la accion de la justicia. Que cansinos sois. Mi nivel es el estado de derecho y la ley, el tuyo la ilegalidad y la camorra
Por cierto te sienta muy bien el disfraz de bruja. Estas preciosa.
Viva España, la consstitución, la guardia civil y la policia nacional
Y puigdemont y compañia a la p.. Carcel por rebelión. Golpistas y psicópatas
@María S. Pérez Ralero
Do all Spaniards still view the world through “Franco’s Eyes”?
Y esto es democracia o una dictadura pura y dura? Pronto no os van a dejar ni abrir la boca, pero bueno dicen que sarna con gusto no pica, vosotros a seguir votando al PP
El problema es que Franco les puso toda la industria allí para callarlos y dejó a otras comunidades en ruina. Pero bueno tienen la industria , pero la materia prima es del resto de España . Con no dárselas punto. El cava lo hacen con las uvas de Castilla la Mancha y Cariñena. La carne del fuet de fuera de cataluña ,y muchas cosas más. Ahora el que quiera el producto que traslade su empresa a España.
En mi ciudad ya se han venido dos empresas y estamos encantados!!!!
Merche, Teruel es muy bonito. Creo que Amazon os ha puesta en su lista.
María you are an excellent advert for Spanish diplomacy. After seeing extreme police brutality on Sunday you are commenting viva Guardia Civil. Calling people crazy and witches in a sprawling rant and then labelling other people psycopaths. Aggression, name calling, and justifying brute force is not going to get you very far – It is 2017.
brutality? they were working under the law. The judge said close the election schools and to remove all the referendum stuffs. The people refused to leave over and over again. So they were obligated to use the force. 35 polices injured by the crazy people there.
i am not calling witch to this woman. She are wearing on a witch costume on one of her pictures. i just said she is precious and she fit well on it.
i am not calling witch to this woman. She is wearing on a witch costume on one of her pictures. i just said she is precious and she fit well on it.
You need to work for your country and leave mine in peace
Is it legal in Spain for a man, when wife asks divorce, to beat her/physically punish her, and to make divorce illegal at wish? I know it sounds sarcastic, but your positions are leaving me speechess – I did not known that Spain was so far from, say, UK (for.mentioning a western country), when it comes to democracy. I do wish Spain to be a strong country and have a strong, United society (I have no reason to hate Spain and I do have.plenty of reasons to hope the best for the Spanish people) – but in these days what I ‘ve seen happen is the opposite of what needs to be done to make it; these escalations might lead to the exact opposite of making Catalans want to be part of Spain.
Is it legal in Spain for a man, when wife asks divorce, to beat her/physically punish her, and to make divorce illegal at wish? I know the question might sound provocative, but your positions are leaving me so speechess that I do not know where to begin with the myriads of examples and parallels to your position – I did not known that Spain was so far from, say, UK (for.mentioning a western country), when it comes to democracy. I do wish Spain to be a strong country and have a strong, United society (I have no reason to hate Spain and I do have.plenty of reasons to hope the best for the Spanish people) – but in these days what I ‘ve seen happen is the opposite of what needs to be done to make it; these escalations might lead to the exact opposite of making Catalans want to be part of Spain.
María, that is such a great solution. Because history has proven that repressing the will of the people and jailing their leaders always works out great.
Also, Merche, Franco hated Catalonia just as much as you do, and therefore tried to drown it. But because he was not stupid he soon realised that in drowning Catalonia all Spanish economy would sink, so he invested in it and got his money’s worth. Much of that money went and keeps going to those comunities that you say were neglected.
Set them free
change the useless catalon goverment and especially the stupid gonernor they have
Someone needs to get back to school.
Are you living in Catalonia Michael Kostas??
jail for all of them
Daniel Sedó Ranki no are you spanish?
No admito las criticas de personas que solo hablan por lo que ven en tv. o las redes sociales cuando en otros paises las cargas policiales son mayor que aqui era algo ilegal y la policia fue mandada por el trbunal de cataluña si cualquiera de vosotros os saltais la ley ¿donde acabais? Cuando protestais a quien os mandan? Venga hablais por hablar España es un gran pais y a los catalanes se les dio siempre lo que pidieron pero nunca estan contentos. Lo que pasa es que en el 2018 se acaba el secreto bancario en Andorra y es dinde kes entra el miedo a los politicos y empresarios catalanes
That is a lie! Tell the truth.
Spain is used to have hung parliaments and main political parties rely on the small catalan and basque nationalist parties to keep them in power through the parliament term securing their votes to pass legislation. This is a constant as most governements are minority governements. The small catalan and basque nationalist parties demand things for Catalonia or the Basque Country in exchange for their support. Mainly the transfer of legislation to their own devolved administrations which are constantly blocked by central governemet or more investment in their comunities. This is very different to always getting what you want.
Completely igree with you, Unai Segurola Azkarate
Pin de cuñada para ti
Veis lo que quereis ver
Tu vives en Catalunya, Amparo Novoa Riola? Porque yo tampoco admito mentiras de gente que solo se informa por la tv.
Estábamos VOTANDO, no cometiendo ningún acto violento ni ilegal.
Ha sido ilegal, hubo desacato por las fuerzas locales y el juez dio orden de clausurar los centros a trapero. Si haya referendum tiene que ser legal.
Ballot boxes full of votes before arriving, people voting on the streets and as many times as they wanted, the catalan government saying numbers of votes that do not match with their previous numbers, but they say that it is binding…. All of this after changing the catalan laws in five minutes doesn’t allow the other political parties (52% population) to make allegations or questions…. Pure democracy, the weakest full of poison.
It’s is a big lie, I vote yesterday… You live in Catalunya at least? Lier!
Thank God I don’t live there, but I know some. It is horrible what it’s happening there.
LIAR
Why? Instead of calling everyone who disagrees with you liar or fascist give us arguments.
Catalan authorithies: You can vote in any station you want, not only the one you’re registered to! – yayyyyyyy, so legal and democratical
No. You can vote ONCE wherever you want (from your community). is called universal census.
this is why a guy was photographed voting in 6 different locations?
Estos tontos de niñatos, no saben lo eran palos
In any country in the world, when the police say move, you move your ass. They can’t pretend they did not know what was coming at them.
En 2015 hubo elecciones en Cataluña y los partidos independentistas obtuvieron solo el 48 % de los votos. El Estatuto de Cataluña , su “Constitución “, votado por todos los catalanes en el 2006, establece una mayoría de 66% de votos para pedir un referéndum al gobierno español. Puigdemont saltándose esa mayoría y en 2 horas aprobó la ley de independencia y el referéndum, sin ningún debate parlamentario ni derecho a réplica X el resto de representantes no independentistas del pueblo catalán en el Parlamento. Lo que no entiendo es como no se ha denunciado ante la ONU esta situación que vulnera totalmente las reglas básicas de la democracia y el derecho fundamental de los catalanes.
It is heartbreaking to see how the people was beaten when they were trying to vote peacefully. The government denied any attempt of dialogue and proceed as they use to do, with violence.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=srGNcltqjnc&feature=youtu.be
You do not know what really happened and who started violence at first place. As I see it, this is question about economic matters more than anything else.
France and Spain should meet and give independence to The Basque Country, Navarre and Catalonia. They are all in the same circumstances.
Proper referendum
Catalonians need independence. You won’t forbid a woman to leave a husband who beat her the same way you shouldn’t forbid a nation to leave a country where it is beated
Catalonia isn’t and has never been a nation, it is a part of Spain.
Nation and state are different things. Nation is about identity, while state is just the political structure. Is a basic in politics to see beyond the words.
In the past years the catalan governement has made several offers to the central governement…
First a new autonomous status ( after being escaled down by Madrid, approved by referendum, approved by the national parliament and signed by the king) which was cancelled a few years later by the constitutional court.
Then a new final arrangement enableing Catalonia to collect and administer the taxes similar to other similar arrangements in other parts of Spain…
And after all the rejections from the central governement…a referendum.
So far…Rajoy has rejected all proposals and offered no alternatives.
Spain denies the catalans or basques to refer themselves to Catalonia or The Basque Country as nations within Spain, as for example Scotland , Wales or England are nations within the United Kingdom.
Recognising there are other historical nations in the Spanish state would be the first step in the right direction
No inventes…Cataluña NUNCA fue nación
Catalunya fue un condado con el Conde de Barcelona como cabeza de gobierno y un parlamento , el Consejo de Ciento que legislaba y recaudaba impuestos. Llamalo como quieras…principado, pais, region o lo que quieras…pero era una administracion independiente que se mantuvo hasta principios del siglo XVIII cuando fue abolido por Felipe V
Sé todo eso
Nunca Nacion
Condado del reino de Aragonés .Adiós!!!!
Pues no lo parece Inmaculada Noguera Gutierrezo….
El Conde de Barcelona Ramon Berenguer IV se caso con Petronilla de Aragon, heredera de la corona de Aragon en 1150 quedando unificados el Condado de Barcelona y la Corona de Aragon . Petronilla vivio y murio en Barcelona ..no en Aragon.
Bye bye…
Inmaculada Noguera Gutierrez adiós por no querer oír. Sueltas la bomba y te vas con tu “verdad”. No sería más interesante llegar a un punto en donde la información con la que se argumenta sea veraz?
Además, es todo mucho más simple. No hace falta recurrir con el argumento histórico. Yo apelo al sentimiento identitario, y no me siento una delincuente. No me ha adoctrinado nadie; no me siento española, me siento euskaldun.
Efectivamente…hablamos de sentimientos colectivos y ese es lo que cuenta. Ahi esta la raiz del problema. La fuerza no nos va a obligar a sentir algo que no sentimos como nuestro .
Cuando hay mas de 2 millones en Catalunya que deciden situarse fuera de la ley…o cambias la ley para incluirlos y que se sientan comodos y aceptados dentro de la ley o aceptas que se marchen.
Pero no se deben mezclar los sentimientos con la política, no es bueno ni tampoco nuevo. Todos nos sentimos orgullosos de nuestras raíces, de nuestra cultura, pero no debemos creer que nos hace mejores que otros, ni olvidar que el país, la nación, no se elige, te ‘toca’. En política, es mejor seguir a la razón.
No estais hartos de qué os mientan vuestros politicos ?
Jose manuel avila revenga….pues si…un poco cansados estamos…pero de que nos mientan los vuestros estamos ya hasta los cojones….el 11M fue ETA, no hubo chapapote en Galicia, no hay ministros de PP con cuentas en Suiza, no ha habido rescate bancario, los jovenes graduados que se van fuera son un orgullo nacional, el rescate a las autopistas radiales no cuesta ni 1 eur a los contribuyentes, el despido de Barcenas ha sido en diferido el 1Oct no ha habido ningun referendum y la respuesta policial ha sido correcta….uff… de esto si que estamos hartos!
Per desgràcia, franco ho va deixar ben lligat!!!
All democrats and reasonable people know ehat is the best way. A legal referendum agreed between both goverments. Unfortunately the current Spanish goverment does not want it and, most problematic, it has create and diffused a narrative against it among their voters and the Spanish citizenship in general. So created the ground for civil confrontation as well. Yesterday and probably during next weeks Spain will come back to the old dark times. Unless UE insitutions and goverments intervine and make possible this legal referendum.
– Spain is a western democracy and its Catalan citizens vote frequently. In fact, between European, national, regional and municipal elections they have voted 6 times in the last five years.
– In the last regional election, pro-secession parties decided to unite around a single issue –independence- and not only failed to win a majority of the vote, but also they lost votes relative to the prior election. Polls, even those paid by the separatists, show support for independence is a minority and in decline.
– Catalonia is not “oppressed”. It is one of the most prosperous regions in Spain and its citizens enjoy a high standard of living and one of the highest degrees of self-rule of any region in Europe.
– The party that traditionally ran the regional government of Catalonia has, for the last 30 years, used public money to promote a separatist agenda through education and local media and has illegally funded itself with a corrupt scheme where contractors had to pay bribes of at least 3% of any public work.
– The region of Catalonia has never existed as an independent political entity and was part or the Kingdom of Aragon, which merged dynastically with the Kingdom of Castille in 1492 to create the Spain we know today. There is no “union”, as in the UK. Catalonia is to Spain what Rousillon is to France or Cornwall to England.
– Spain is parliamentary democracy, with a constitution that can be amended. A vote on territorial secession would require such amendment and the support of a qualified majority of Spaniards.
– Not a single country or international organisation (with the exception of Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela) has supported this movement.
So why the fuss? As the economy improves and support for independence wanes, the separatists are afraid of “missing the train” and, breaking Spanish and regional laws, have embarked on a campaign to present the central government as “evil” for not allowing a regional referendum which does not comply with the constitution (overwhelmingly approved throughout Spain, including Catalonia). This noise also conveniently masks regional corruption scandals and sets up separatists as victims for the next regional election.
So, do you agree that it was sheer idiocy to not let them vote?
It was an idiocy first by the local government to not abide by the democratic rules of their constitution which they approved… I do not condone the violence of the police in any form but it could’ve been avoided if the rules were to been folowed.
Jorge del Prado don’t you think the Constitution was approved by catalans as it was the only option they were given to get out of franquismo?
Im catalan and aa far as i know it was the never the only.option. Do not consider catalans more victims to francl than the rest of spain, the big tycoons of the industry in bcn, which btw conform its current political class were greatly benefited by Franco
As far as I know…… Please, read history books.
If more people were to study history nationalims would not exist… We had forgotten way to fast nationalism is the base of fascism
Y tú deja de leer panfletos… (Libros de historia en Cataluña? jjjjjjj, ¿Te refieres a esos que dicen que Cervantes, Colón, Santa Teresa de Jesús, etc… eran catalanes? jajajajajajaja ¿eso son libros de historia o de histeria?
Jorge del Prado tu què has de ser català!
Freedom. Self-determination.
De qué libertad habla ? Libertad para destruir una nación ? Cataluña no es Cuba aquí tenemos una democracia que es la envidia de muchos países
Most certainly. You can go to hospital and tell those injured while trying to vote.
Jose Luis Jimenez Lopez I think that he’s talking about the freedom of a people to decide how it is organized politically by voting, which is how European democracies solve conflicts.
Mensaje de Isabel Coixet a sus amigos extranjeros … A TODOS mis amigos internacionales
“Este fin de semana me di cuenta de que algunos de mis amigos internacionales están confundidos por lo que está pasando en España con Cataluña. Espero que esto ayude:
– España es una democracia occidental y sus ciudadanos catalanes votan con frecuencia. De hecho, entre elecciones europeas, nacionales, regionales y municipales han votado 6 veces en los últimos cinco años.
– En las últimas elecciones regionales, los partidos pro-secesión decidieron unirse en torno a un solo tema -independencia- y no sólo no lograron obtener la mayoría de los votos, sino que también perdieron votos en relación con las elecciones anteriores. Las encuestas, incluso las pagadas por los separatistas, demuestran que el apoyo a la independencia es una minoría y en declive.
– Cataluña no está “oprimida”. Es una de las regiones más prósperas de España y sus ciudadanos disfrutan de un alto nivel de vida y uno de los más altos grados de autogobierno de cualquier región de Europa.
– El partido que tradicionalmente dirigía el gobierno regional de Cataluña ha utilizado durante los últimos 30 años dinero público para promover una agenda separatista a través de la educación y los medios locales y se ha financiado ilegalmente con un esquema corrupto en el que los contratistas tuvieron que pagar sobornos al menos 3% de cualquier trabajo público.
– La región de Cataluña nunca ha existido como una entidad política independiente y fue parte o el Reino de Aragón, que se fusionó dinásticamente con el Reino de Castilla en 1492 para crear la España que conocemos hoy. No hay “unión”, como en el Reino Unido. Cataluña es España lo que Rousillon es a Francia o Cornualles a Inglaterra.
– España es democracia parlamentaria, con una constitución que puede ser enmendada. Una votación sobre la secesión territorial requeriría tal enmienda y el apoyo de una mayoría calificada de españoles.
– Ningún país u organización internacional (con la excepción de Nicolás Maduro en Venezuela) ha apoyado este movimiento.
Entonces, ¿por qué el alboroto? A medida que la economía mejora y el apoyo a la independencia disminuye, los separatistas temen “perderse el tren” y, rompiendo con las leyes españolas y regionales, se han embarcado en una campaña para presentar al gobierno central como “malvado” por no permitir un referéndum regional que no cumplen con la constitución (ampliamente aprobada en toda España, incluida Cataluña). Este ruido también oculta los escándalos regionales de corrupción y establece separatistas como víctimas de las próximas elecciones generales.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1453982211317419&id=486217364760580
I’m catalan! Milion catalan want vote. Referendum isn’t legal? In decocracy have to ve legal!
I’m catalan! Milion catalan want vote. Referendum isn’t legal? In democracy have to be legal!
All people in Spain has the right to vote every 4th year, well Catalans more often because the never have a government that last for all period of 4 years. The nationalists never get more than 50 % so gives them the right to declare Catalonia as a republic, doesn’t make sense. This is just a smoke screen to make people look the other way and forget about all corruption with the Pujol clan on top, the best way to create a dictature is to put up invisible borders and what’s better for that than your own language, then you control the media and the messages you control the people. Can’t understand this with judging people based on where they live, there’s two things in life you can’t either be proud or ashamed of, where you’re born and whos your parents are, the rest is up to you.
I asked Catalans for the definition of a Catalan and I’ve never got a good answer. Grow up Spanish people and don’t think you’re better than others, get out of your little bubble try to look at the big picture.
Aquí escribe gente que no sabe que los agresores son los separatistas y culpan al gobierno de España por defender la Constitución , por favor si no saben informensen antes de criticar .
Claro que sí, las abuelas con bastón fueron las que pegaban a los antidisturbios, anda ya hombre, vosotros sí que estais abducidos
Esas señoras estaban donde no debían haciendo algo ilegal
Why is so difficult to understand that people has the right to choose their own way?
It’s being incrediblento see how some people think t at are all the spaniards who have to decide the future of Catalonia. Why not all the europeans? And what about Mexicans or Italians?
Silly people talking silly things
All spanish people saying the police only did their job and it was catalans fault, it’s because they live outside catalonia and watch the news of the spanish tv and the spanish media is completely manipulated, they made people think nothing bad happened, manipulating and hiding information and they were showing movies instead of the news telling what was going on, and when it was news time they hid reality and let the spanish president talk telling how well they had acted… thats why… i lived the horror yesterday and i couldnt vote, i tried many times but i couldnt make it, it was so difficult, also my child at home was crying begging me not to go there… she accidentaly saw part of a video and was really scared to let her mum go… i’m still shocked, so if participation was under 50% is only because of the difficulty and fear we lived yesterday…. it was not easy to vote, inter et was continouisly blocked and people waited for hours in line and when i was about to vote it was too late… police turned up, people were crying unconsolably trying to protect their own votes… it was unbelievable, why didnt spain let us do it legally?? They dont want us to leave them… it’s like being in an authoritary marriage where you cannot decide if yoy want to divorce or not and being married by force in the past…
Its difficult… My first reaction would be to send the army, occupy catalonia and arrest puidgemont, whatever is said about catalan independence 1) it is absolutely unfair to say they where discriminated or there where hate crimes against them, spain is an advanced nation that has known peace after the dictatorship, civil liberties and prosperity, apart from crisises that have affected every country, kurds are a completely different situation, as is scotland 2) if you start accepting every group declaring independence illegally you will get a muslim state, a gay state, etc…
So independence cant be allowed, now what can be done? Ideally all of spain should vote not on independence, but if catalonias can have their referendum, and if they can then allow an orderly vote, the problem is both sides dont want that at this point because “no” would probably win so it makes no sense for the catalonian goverment to accept it (even though it would be fair) and because ofnall the conflict there is a small case yes will win and then again yes in the referendum and thats also inacceptable for spain…. Unfortunatly its a stalemate and even if puidgemont and the regional parliament are jailed there will be problems…. What i would like to see are more grand gestures… Idk for example if puidgemont is imprisoned, have the king of spain interview him in a forced session in jail and debate about spain and the future of spain, explain why the monarchy exists, condemn the franco regime as having done bad things, etc.. And show this on national television, idk, or have rajoy and the king of spain travel to catalonia and start living there, or move the parlament and royal palace to barcelona, etc… These are all ridiculous propositions but thats what they have in common, they are extreme, spain right now needs extreme PR measures, i believe it is still possible to have a big swing in public opinion for the goverment, if they do they right publicity stunt showing honesty, and undermine that with economical, constitutional reforms, announcing stuff like no more contaminating cars in spain after 2030, etc… All these things could turn the situation around, if its done well in a few years nobody will remember the vote and nobody will complain but the extremists (who always complain everywhere) but if madrid insists on the current course things might end up bad, idk… In any case what i believe the EU member states should do is send as much support as possible for the spanish goverment, in whatever way possible, not only is spain a fundamental member of the EU, but it is also an important message to european nations struggling with EU membership that the EU can provide security and stability… Thats my opinion, but the situation is complex and the solution wont come tomorrow, idk if rajoy and the king have the balls to make drastic changes in their atitude to this situation or their own lifestyles, but i hope so, it would really be for the best, because right nownwhat spain is missing is popular leadership
@Manuel
Expecting the EU to do the right thing is expecting way, way too much!
I think there’s no way back… catalan people dont want anything to do with spanish people anymore after all that happened, but spanish people are not aware of the situation yet, they are not aware we are not a minority at all, we are millions of catalans that will not accept to continue in spain after all this… now i dont know what will happen… they are capable of anything and we are living in a fascist country, i just hope we can exit….
Thanks to media like Tele5, 13TV and other … but mainly TV1 who is supposed to be impartial and the national media. Sucks.
If you don’t want to have anything to do with spanish people you have a big problem, your workmates and neigbourgs are problably spanish, lot’s of people living in catalonia has their origin from other parts of spain, guess you have to leave the region if you don’t like spanish people.
Wow Carl Zing …you did not understand anything What you are telling is a manipulation of media to discredit catalonia. Catalan people do not have any problem with neighbors. My own family is outsider, and we are political divided. We usually speak spanish between us and obviously with foreign people. I do not want to leave my nation. I do not want to change country, and there is no way to change Spain.
After the disgusting brutality of Sunday i see a legally binding referendum as the only solution… Until last week it is very probable that a legally binding referendum would have resulted in a vote to stay with Spain, but now almost certainly it would be to leave
The New Caledonia solution : agree on an enlarged autonomy statuts now and a referendum in 10 years. It creates an incentive to propose an autonomy solution that is satisfactory enough to avoid a yes result in ten years. Of course the catch is that that the whole crisis started because there was a satisfactory agreement on the table and the Spanish right has rejected it. But there will be no solution without a new relationship between the Spanish State and Catalonia.
It would be an option, logical, democratic, respectable. But it involves changing the Spanish constitution, voted in 78. I am 50 years old and I did not vote for this constitution, because I have to accept it?
On the other hand, two facts: 1) The PP-PSOE-C trinomio wins votes whenever any Catalan issue is attacked, and loses votes if it agrees with the Catalan government. 2) the distribution of GDP contributed by the Catalan taxpayer is 20% of the Spanish total with a hypothetical 6% (dividing 100 among 17 autonomous communities); while other communities receive their GDP back to self-manage that money, in Catalonia no.
On the other hand, the Spanish media are manipulated, they inform of what they want to inform in a subjective way. Just have to see how they have distributed the images of the events of 1-0 (this is not new, is always, and is directly related to the above)
Do you really think that consensus voting is possible?
The PP’s strategy so far has been to ensure their votes (since they never get many votes in Catalonia) by turning all of Spain’s eyes to Catalonia, while they keep doing whatever they want. By declaring the referendum illegal and harmful to all the Spanish, and afterwards repressing it, they have ensured their voters stay happy. But, on the other hand, they have created a lot of division and hatred by turning Spain against Catalonia.
In the meantime, the Catalan government knows their only resource are the masses, since every other resource is controlled by central government. And are making sure the people who are in favor of secession stay excited.
As things are right now, it does not look like they are capable of reaching any sort of agreement without external help. It seems like some sort of mediation from the EU is much needed, and the longer it takes for it to come, the worse the situation is going to get.
That would be a beautiful solution. Unluckily, it sounds more like a utopia at this point.
Now article 155
Independence. Let us go. And start condemning violence in EU.
ENTENCIA DEL TRIBUNAL DE LA HAYA
El Tribunal Internacional de Justicia de la Haya, principal órgano judicial de las Naciones Unidas, tiene establecido al respecto, mediante Sentencia de 22 de julio de 2010: “Declaramos que no existe en derecho internacional ninguna norma que prohíba las DECLARACIONES UNILATERALES DE INDEPENDENCIA. Declaramos que cuando hay una contradicción entre la legalidad constitucional de un Estado, y la voluntad democrática, prevalece esta segunda, y declaramos que, en una sociedad democrática, a diferencia de una dictadura, no es la Ley la que determina la voluntad de los ciudadanos, sino que ésta es la que crea y modifica cuando sea necesario la legalidad vigente”. Declaración sobre la guerra de 1999 en la antigua Yugoslavia por la que se obliga a Serbia a abandonar Kosovo.
The case is that, Catalonia must decide for themselves, it does not make sense, that a country votes for what a territory wants to ask.(in this case Catalan state). It’s like, if you want to separate from your wife, but you can not because she does not want.
On the other hand, if people believe that others have to be punished because they want t to vote ( it calls democracy) it means that you have a problem, just see the basic principles of human rights, then, Spain has never ceased to be a dictatorial state, where it has never been Punished by the fascism, where torture and torture have never been punished. Catalonia was an colonized territory, and citizens want to decide their future, like Portugal, Mejico…which is normal doing it through votations, in the 21th century.
I could say a thousand things, and I would be all day.
Just say that Catalonia will be a country under law, because for us, it always have been a country. and where we do not want fascist neither from Spanin nor from anywhere else.
Federation State
independece
Respect people´s opinion, let the people decide what´s better for them and give them what they want.
Respect the law and start negotiations on that basis
Y cuando los mossos te daban pal pelo en sus cuarteles o en la calle entonces si llamaban a la guardia civil.que poca memoria
Independencia!
Perhaps. is the opportunity that psoe has wasted, saving their votes in Spain and not risking to try to change the spanish constitution.
https://media.tenor.com/images/cccc60185608a7ed8f2e3422dbe52a74/tenor.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIf294S8vD4
Spain’s “Constitutional Monarchy” held a “Constitutional Referendum” in 1978 in which 68% in Catalonia participated and 95% said yes to the new democratic Spanish Constitution- which includes the recognition of Catalonia’s autonomy and language.
Not enough anymore? It is evident the “autonomous majority” want more- how much more? There are no sensible reasons for a brutal crackdown- even if such “opinion poll” called “referendum” cannot be considered constitutional.
However, the preamble to the Spanish constitution says:
“Protect all Spaniards and all the peoples of Spain in the exercise of human rights, their cultures and traditions, languages and institutions”.
Test: did the State act in that spirit or overreact? Seems it unfortunately overreacted, as was common practice- prior to 1978. A pity!
Full sovereignty or a better deal for an autonomous region can only be found through negotiations within its available constitutional Spanish framework- without EU interference!
Whatever happens on the long way to full sovereignty- in the end, the UN Security Council (9 out of 15) and the General Assembly 2/3 has to vote in favor.
A very long walk indeed!
ask the PM to resign! and try to get back to attaining conversations between the catalonian parliament and the central one!
The government should apologise for the violence and speak to the concerned parties. I legitimate referendum compliant with international democratic standards should be held..
Anyone that wants to be part of a brutal state of whatever ethnicity/identity?
Follow the UN, EU, and Spanish Constitution and Laws, id est: Article 155, restoration of the Democratic State and Rule of Law. Simple.
Haha. That’s what the apartheid regime in South Africa said about their racist system. That’s what China’s communist party still is saying about the massacre on Tiananmen. That’s what the Yugoslavian communist regime said about the separatist movements in the 1990ies. That’s what all colonial states said about the freedom movements that were aiming for independency. Were these talks about rule of law correct then? No, of course not, and the same applies today.
This is a call to the international community, to all my friends abroad and to the people of the world who believe in the liberties and rights of our society.
Last Sunday (Oct 1st, 2017) was a dark day in the history of Spain. That day we saw the true face of the government from Madrid, we saw the true political approach to the Catalan claim for liberty, we witnessed the collapse of a fascist regime. Yes, it was a day to remember in the memories of all spaniards, a day that must never be again, and will never be. The brutality of the police intervention, with a convulsed use of the force, the unacceptable card house of lies plus unrealistic lecture of the facts and the pretension of triumph from the Spanish government is drowning the country in a generalised feeling of shame and impotence. The perfect mix for hatred to grow.
But, also, we were able to see also the first day of a free Catalonia, the first beam of freedom at the end of a tunnel that has been blinding our sight for 303 years now. The catalan community made a clear stance for their identity and it was unanimous. People went to vote, against their fear, against their own personal integrity, under a state-of-siege perpetrated by multiple para-military police forces. People of Catalonia made a great act of bravery yesterday, people from all ages, from all social strata, from various political ideologies. And those brave democrats won, with a clear 90% pro independence with a participation of 56%. This is something that I, as a Catalan, will never forget and I will always admire the force and determination of a people who have been oppressed for too long now, and that they are se decided to change things for the better.
I call for the international community to take part in the Catalan Independence process, to defend the rights of pacifical democrats, of the people of a region who are for the progress and for the rights of everyone, who just want to be free from a neo-fascist regime which has been running in the shadows of a fake democratic country. We know they are not democrats, we can see that in everyday decisions, the regime of the Popular Party (PP) and their acolytes is a unquestionable continuation of dictator Franco’s politics and ideologies, by which, Catalonia is a subject of their sacred unity and because of that, must remain silent and compliant at all costs. The brutality and inhumanity that this particular political party is applying on their Catalan politics has no place in a free world and needs to be addressed. These guys have been raised in the belief they’re some sort of “superior” beings, and because of that, they are entitled to rule with no respect for discrepancy, no interest for diversity, and of course, absolute no need for debate. They feel in control of the people but they already demonstrated their lack of control over the situation, they showed us the tangible danger of and ill-minded tendency for violence and repression and they clearly crossed all red lines that separate democratic states from dictatorial ones.
I hope this acts will be judged by international organisms in the near future, that the culprits of this madness are put before the law and that our community regains it’s stolen sovereignty, dignity and sense of justice.
As a Catalan citizen, as a European community member, and as a person of the world I also call to the public opinion to condemn the crimes perpetrated by the government of Spain, to promote a trial against those crimes and provide proper punishment for such atrocious actions and to make clear that the European community, nor the United Nations, nor any other organisation which defines itself as a free or democratic can ever agree with the strategies and actions of a fascist organisation.
Let Catalonia be free of these fascists and give it the opportunity to self-determine.
Thanks a lot for your support and your understanding, from Catalonia.
It is NOT a crisis. If people vote and want independence, give it to them!
Certainly, the solution is NOT beating people up only for “voting and expressing opinion”… let people vote, let people express themselves, and then… DEAL WITH IT
What does Europe think of the movement of military equipment in Catalonia?
Allow ‘democracy’, self determination. The ‘jackboot’ of Rajoy’s henchmen won’t work just as Adolph’s system was opposed throughout Europe, apart from those traitors to their own in France.
Give its independence !!!
Journalists continue the propaganda anti-spain, this is not about catalonia. Soros is finincing this thematic. the flag of catalonia does not have a marxist star but the marxst are runing this process not the people.
Of course the best way to resolve the crisis is to hold a proper referendum in Catalunya. The Catalan people should have the right to freedom and independency if it wants this.
The Spanish government is showing its true face and it ain’t pretty. Like a schoolyard bully it is trying everything to squeeze the will out of the Catalan people. It has sent police to beat up peaceful voters. The Constitutional Court also seems to be totally in the pockets of the government. This court is spitting out decisions about the Catalan self government in no time. You just have to ask for a ruling to call a decision illegal and you will get it the next day. Apparently this so called constitutional court does not hear any parties or arguments anymore. PSOE for example asked for a parliament session to be declared illegal in advanced!!! This was approved of immediately. This is democracy the Spanish way. Some big banks have suddenly moved their HQ:s away from Catalunya. You really believe the Spanish government did not have anything to do with these decisions? Haha, big stock exchange companies don’t usually do these kind of hastily decisions… The Spanish government is also urging other companies to move from Catalunya. These actions sounds really crazy. But as I said: the behaviour is like the one of a schoolyard bully with zero understanding of or feelings for the victim.
Shame on you Spain. And shame on EU for approving of this shit.
Boycott all Spanish products, turism in Spain and the companies that are leaving Catalunya!
Catalonia, Sat 7-Oct-2017, Pedraforca (2500m).
We met at the mountain summit.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw24zLHL8JiEbTQtS1BXcWZrU2M/view?usp=sharing
Feel free to use it, that moment was a gift for me.
The answer to solve the Catalonia crisis is ‘up there’ in the mountain, “No Noise Up There”, don’t hear the noise, don’t talk with hotheads.
And broaden up your sight, your understanding, review history, understand the present, and build up a better future.
Throw out Franco-Spain from EU. Its antics do not fit in well in a democratic EU.
Viva Catalunya libre!
I live in London , England. I am horrified by Brexit but should the London Mayor call an illegal referendum on London leaving the UK and staying in the EU? Should London residents who are pro Brexit be compelled to vote in such a referendum? What if the London Mayor calls an illegal referendum on whether London should leave the UK and join the USA. Should I have to feel obligied to vote in such a referendum in case 42% of the London electorate do vote to join the USA? …If a majority in a region want to break away, it’s difficult to see how a democracy can or would want to stop them. But a democracy cannot include “UDI” referendums. What if Catolonia becomes independent but parts subsequently want to rejoin Spain? Can and could the local councils in an independent Catolonia organise their own referendums on rejoining Spain?
their is no “crisis” in catalonia. the “crisis” is created by Soros,journalists,and dark entitiys. catalonian people told us this process is been done by marxist faction this is not about “catalonia”, this is Soros agenda.
And I thought I was the crazy one…
entao hoje em dia voce vive na aldeia global ,nao existe povos ,porque iria ter independencia. journalistas fazerem propaganda do Soros. este processo nao teve apoio dos catalaes, so teve apoio da imprensa international que é sempre duvidosa.
Para começo de conversa Soros é uma capitalista, europeísta, globalista. Em suma, ele é exactamente contra qualquer independentismo.
Em segundo lugar, este processo teve sim apoio dos catalães, aliás, ele só existe porque os catalães o desejam.
Em terceiro e último lugar, a “espanha” é um país terceiro-mundista de tiques dictatorias que não cabe na cultura cosmopolita e intelectual dos catalães.
soros é pela divisao para enfraquecer. o globalista que quer desfazer os povos. porque acha que tem propaganda anti-espanha. este processo nao teve apoio dos catalaes e voce se enganar a esse sujeito nao acontece por acaso pois propaganda feita pela midia fez esse serviço. pessoas na catalunha vao votar voce sabia? voce sabia que tem eleiçoes na catalunha? nao sabias? achei que soubesses. pois entao as pessoas que vivem na catalunha e que votam nao apoiam este processo. tem pequeno groupo de extrema-esquerda detras de isto apoiado e financiado pelo soros.
pequeno groupo de extrema-esquerda nao representa todos naquela regiao. em portugal o PCP quando faz manifestaçoes tu podes ver os resultados tem la tudo
Repito, Soros é contra todas as independências, espanha não é e nunca foi uma nação e como tal nunca teve um povo. Os catalães querem a independência.
Sim, sei muito bem que se vota na Catalunha e por isso sei que os independentistas têm maioria absoluta na Generalitat. Pelos vistos quem não sabe deste facto é sua excelência.
Irra! Só diz asneiras.
Let them decide what they want to do. That is the best thing to do.
pessoas no algarve tem etnia difrente dos lusitanos e portucalenses, o reino do algarve existia apart, será que povo no algarve pode decidir seu futuro? a nao? atão? agora o algarve ja é portugal e somos todos portugueses?
espera la, e os lusitanos nao tem direito a decidir? e os republicanos que assasinam o nosso rei e nao fazem referendo? espera la tu falas e proibes o teu povo de ter referendo e queres que outros tenham referendos quando tu nem tens referendos? eita
Jean Charles Branco , o povo do Algarve pode decidir e esse direito está na cosntituíção, no entanto, claramente o seu português é medíocre demais para que entenda a Constituíção Portuguesa. Lusitanos e Portucalenses? Etnia diferente? Não existe meu caro. Devia ler uns livros de história e de caminho de biologia. Portugal não tem movimentos independentistas porque é uma nação una, mas se tivesse, ou se por acaso vier a ter, somos democratas e damos direito de escolha. Não confunda Portugal com o terceiro-mundismo intelectual típico do resto da europa, muito menos com o africanismo espanhol.
Jean Charles Branco , o povo do Algarve pode decidir e esse direito está na constituição, no entanto, claramente o seu português é medíocre demais para que entenda a Constituíção Portuguesa. Lusitanos e Portucalenses? Etnia diferente? Não existe meu caro. Devia ler uns livros de história e de caminho de biologia. Portugal não tem movimentos independentistas porque é uma nação una, mas se tivesse, ou se por acaso vier a ter, somos democratas e damos direito de escolha. Não confunda Portugal com o terceiro-mundismo intelectual típico do resto da europa, muito menos com o africanismo espanhol.
Jean Charles Branco, caso de algum dia venha a saber ler, escrever e interpretar um texto em português, aqui fica o artigo: “3. Portugal reconhece o direito dos povos à autodeterminação e independência e ao desenvolvimento, bem como o direito à insurreição contra todas as formas de opressão.”
Jean Charles Branco, caso de algum dia venha a saber ler, escrever e interpretar um texto em português, aqui fica o artigo:
“3. Portugal reconhece o direito dos povos à autodeterminação e independência e ao desenvolvimento, bem como o direito à insurreição contra todas as formas de opressão.”
José Bessa da Silva meu idioma é o lusitano, estou escrever em portugues para voce entender e ainda se queixa ,veja o mal agradecido tenha tino. alem de isso voce é mentiroso, o algarve naopode decidir, em portugal é proibido referendos, e voce vai querer referendo na espanha quando no seu país é proibido, ó inteligencia. josé nem conhece o seu proprio povo, como vai lançar palpites para os outros. ADN Lusitano é mais antigo da europa, os portucalenses vem dos wisigos/suevos sao recentes e nem sao ibericos. onde está o direito ao povo Lusitano de existir? ah agora abres os olhos?
Lusitanos nunca vão ser portugueses. etnia Lusitana é 75%, etnia portucalense é menos de 20% maioria no porto e vila nova de gaia. tras montes tem etnia gaelica 5% ,mostra que etnia portucalense ta em minoria. algarve é etnia mourisca, nem sequer lusitana e muito menos portucalense.
Lusitanos pagavam imposto aos mouros e aos romanos e em troca era respeitados e tinham direito a vida. os portucalenses “reconquistaram” conquistaram nossa terra e nao reconhecem direito dos Lusitanos de existir de exprimir em lusitano ou terem cultura lusitana. ainda queres falar dos catalaes?
Tanta ignorância junta.
1- O seu idioma é lusitano? Força, fale lusitano. Quero ver isso.
2- Portugal não permite referendos? O que foi o do aborto? E o da regionalização?
Enfim, a constituição consagra três tipos de referendos de nivel Nacional, Regional e Local.
http://www.cne.pt/content/referendo
3- Povo Lusitano? Pois fique sabendo que os lusitanos nunca foram Ibéricos. Aliás os ibéricos ocupavam uma pequena porção da península junto ao sudeste e pensa-se que nem sequer eram nativos da península.
4- Essa das etnias é tão estúpida que dá até nojo. “Jean Charles”, com esse nome sua sumidade é obviamente um estrangeiro. Aliás, nem sequer sabe utilizar a língua nacional. Deixe ser ignorante e resuma-se à sua estupidez crónica.
Arrest every leader who wants the independence .
Bomb Madrid for being a third-world dictatorship!
You forget that we live in Europe 😶. No violence pls . Europe has been a battlefield for centuries..
So Yugoslavia was not part of Europe ?
Like Ukraine?
Rémi Martin Ukraine a=right now is destroying the rumanians on her so arrest them.
Let the Law work and don’t interfere. Catalonian crisis was artificially build up for independent fellows and some followers, but not the majority of the catalan people.
Nice lie old man.
Proof me wrong…you are not catalan and you don’t live here.
I did live in Girona up until 2015, when Mas was president and Puidgemont was still president in Girona…I do know what I speak of.
And I don’t need more to prove you lie than the fact that independentist parties hold the majority in Generalitat.
Hahahahaah.
“Let the Law work and don’t interfere”, no, no, no, EU and USA should say their word like they did in Ukraine! Europe is peace, they said…
Yes, they put their nose in a paceful country and now look at Ukranie…jajaja.
Keep the EU out of it, they make a mess of everything they touch.
No, EU and USA should say their word like they did in Ukraine! Europe is peace, they said…
For sure, it’s *not* to send police forces. The EU can be beautiful, but in this case, aside from a few courageous politicians, the EU was eerily quiet, therefore siding de-facto with Rajoy’s very non-EU heavy-handedness. It might be ok, but we will remember that. If the EU is intent on siding with its people, it should be very clear about where to side in such events. And they will happen again. Self-determination is a basic human right, and there has to be mechanisms to handle it. Sure, politically, Brexit, Cataxit, it all challenges the current boundaries. But it’s probably a good idea for the EU to have a solution to regions that fall out of their original national entity, be that Catalonia or Scotland or Flanders or you name it. In such cases, the EU should be clear: if you want, the EU will continue to be your home. that message has to be made crystal clear if the Eu is to keep respect from its citizens. That Catalonia breaks away from Spain is one thing, but that it falls out of the EU is a whole new other level, and we do not want to go there.
Soros is causing this propaganda is anti-spain, is not about “catalonia”.
Go back to your alpine mountains instead of saying stupidity.
José Bessa da Silva volta para os alipines montains os portucalenses vieram de esse lugar, qd chegaram ca os lusitanos ja ca tavam. volta para tua terra e deixa o meu povo em paz.
portucalenses vieram a lusitania e deixaram minha terra em cinzas e so querem dinheiro mais nada. fora com a occupaçao portuguesa da Lusitania nossa terra.
josé é racista e xenofobico por negar existencia do meu povo.
A inteligência não é algo que lhe assista.
Em primeiro lugar eu sou centrão, em suma, dessa terra que estúpidamente vossa sumidade chama “lusitana”.
Em segundo lugar eu não tenho paciência para estúpidos ignorantes que vêm do estrangeiro para falar besteira da minha terra. Ponha-se no olho da rua, sua excelência de lusitano não tem nada. Volte para a Suíça que o seu lugar é lá. Nenhum português se chama “jean charles”.
Era só o que faltava a bosta de um estrangeiro que nem sabe falar a minha língua querer vir dizer tanta anormalidade junta.
josé o tipico Lusofobico ,Racista ,e Xenofobico que odeia os Lusitanos.
sim es estupido e ignorante, estupido por odiares pessoas que te acolheram, e ignorante por recusares reconhecer existencia do meu povo lusitano. ainda queres falar sobre catalonia ó palhaço.
Pessoas que me acolheram? Não sou eu o estrangeiro, é vossa excelência o suíço, não eu. Volte para a sua terra.
Não existe “povo lusitano” sua anta.
Tanta estupidez junta é dose. Um merdas de um estrangeiro com nome de esteangeiro que não sabe falar a língua nacional com a mania que é nativo da minha terra só pode ser piada.
José Bessa da Silva tua Lusofobia e racismo e cenofobia contra o meu povo nao é novidade. infelizmente a Lusofobia tem sido promovido. o teu odio contra o meu povo só mostra que se odeias as pessoas que vivem no teu país por nao serem portugueses e serem lusitanos, como podes dar palpites para a catalunha, so prova que es palhaço que vai atras dos journalistas
meu povo existe abecula, eu tou aqui ! eu existo, meu povo Lusitano irá ser Livre. Lusitanos quer dizer Pessoas Livres, povo Lusitano irá ter autonomia na nossa regiao. existe referendo para 21 dezembro para autonomia na regiao lusitana, mas infelizmente campanha para o referendo de 21 dezembronaotem ajuda dos journalistas
Ai que besta.
Qual era o Lusitano que se chamava “Jean Charles”? Ah pois, nenhum?
Era suposto a Suíca ter boa educação mas pelos vistos este suíço saiu uma bela besta…hahaha
Acorde para a vida. Sua excelência não fala lusitano, não escreve lusitano, não tem nome lusitano logo não é lusitano. Sua excelência é suíço francófono. Por isso vá dar uma volta ao bilhar grande lá para as montanhas alpinas onde nasceu e deixe de ser ignorante.
José Bessa da Silva esta conta tem nome jean porque facebook suspende as minhas contas. ser Lusitano é crime hoje em dia ser portugues é crime, ser branco é crime, ser europeu é crime ser iberico é crime, voces esquerdalhos antifas merdosos deram cabo do meu povo deixaram minha terra em cinzas, volta para casa de banho e puxa o autoclsimo
I like the coments of people who are not catalan, don’t live in Catalonia and opinate acording their political colour and the lies they read in the news.
Ara has quedat de collons ,aqui
Enric, like it was done for Ukraine? Looooool
Elections, referendum, acceptance. Solved by democracy.
Like in Ukraine?
Dissolve Tyrannic E.U. !
New Spanish Constitution in the sens of a federation.
If the constitution isn’t respected today, why should it be later?
For me the best way is make an acordated referendum, or declare the independece.
“What’s the best way to resolve the Catalonia crisis?”: It’s time to start seriously investing in EUROPE of REGIONS!! The role of EU Regions is completely out of the public debate, while tensions run over separatist movements, intergovernmentalism, Nationalism, Federalism (United States of Europe)….The Europe of Regions isn’t a dream: it is a plan! And a very ambitious one, from Founding Fathers/Mothers of the EU. It is time for a Europe of Regions!!!