What caused the refugee crisis? Obviously, no single factor is entirely to blame. There’s no shortage of reasons why the number of migrants and refugees entering the EU started dramatically rising around 2015. The arrivals come from different countries, and they each have their own reasons for seeking entry into Europe.
Many are fleeing violence. The top three countries of origin for people seeking asylum in the EU are Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq; all three of those countries are facing protracted insurgencies (or even outright civil war). Somebody coming from Eritrea, however, is more likely to be running from that country’s brutal dictatorship. Refugees from Nigeria might be trying to escape Boko Haram. And, of course, there are also economic migrants who are trying to break out of poverty and seek a better life in Europe.
Some of our readers blame the West for that violence. We had a comment from Daniel blaming “Western geopolitics” for destabilising the Middle East and North Africa. It’s certainly true that the intervention in Libya led to the collapse of central authority there, and the resulting chaos has been exploited by people smugglers. President Obama called the West’s failure to prepare for the aftermath of the Libya campaign the ‘worst mistake’ of his Presidency.
Likewise, it’s possible to argue that a series of Western policy failures in Iraq after the 2003 invasion led directly to the collapse of Mosul, when over 30,000 Iraqi soldiers and security personnel abandoned the city to as few as 800 ISIS militants. Others have argued that the policy of Western governments to arm “moderate” Syrian rebels has backfired spectacularly.
We recently had the chance to interview HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal of Jordan, Chairman of the West Asia – North Africa (WANA) Institute. He was speaking at an event organised by Friends of Europe in Brussels, looking at the root causes of the refugee crisis. What would he say to Daniel?
We also had a comment from Irmeli, who believes that population growth is the biggest driver behind the refugee crisis. We’ve already looked at environmental issues and whether climate change might have played a part in the recent refugee crisis, but what about overpopulation? Population growth in the Middle East and North Africa has been faster than in any other region of the world for the past century. Is this sustainable?
How would HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal respond to Irmeli’s comment?
Is Western geopolitics to blame for the refugee crisis? Has population growth contributed to political instability? Or has climate change been one of the the main drivers? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions.
If Daniel refers to the Western quest for power and influence at the global level, then one couldn’t overlook its consequences for Middle East and North Africa. However, I think one not exaggerate the importance of the Afghan and Iraqi regime changes, at the beginning of the decade; instead, it might be useful to work on the weight of domestic causes versus Western interference in the so-called ‘Arab spring’. It would also be interesting to study the effects of Western exports such as communication technology, consumer culture and individualist political discourses: they might have been more dangerous than deliberate power projection for the stability of regional autocracies.
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Yes.
let me think….
Everything else but islam can be blamed
Progressives believe that no matter what they do it will lead to progress in long run… so Under president Obama they destabilised middle east and africa we live the consequences
Under Reagan, Clinton, Bush, and now Trump as well.
The bombing of Iraq the Iraq war bombing of ,Afghanistan ,bombing of Libya ,and Syria destabilised these areas and the problem exponentially worse
Yes.
NOOOO, WHO SAID THAT?
For almost all troubles in Middle East is western geopolitics to blame.
If there was a established EU Defense Force , then there would be no migrant crisis in the EU created by the Turkish State Sponsored flood of the European Union with illegal immigrants, since a EU Defense Force , would create a IRON WALL in the Mediterranean , stretching from Bulgaria to Spain , while also contributing to rapidly ending the British State Sponsored Turkish Military invasion and occupation of EU member Cyprus since 1974. The current European Security and Defense Policy unit of the European Union , needs to be immediately expanded , upgraded and transformed into a all professional million personnel EU Defense Force. There is CIVIL WAR In Turkey . Turkey is a Rogue State . Turkey is a State Sponsor of ISIS Terrorism . Turkey is completely unreliable and useless to NATO . Turkey needs to be dissolved into 6-7 pieces with the establishment of a Sovereign Federation Nation State of Kurdistan , uniting the Kurdish regions of BAKUR , BASUR and ROJAVA in one Kurdish Nation State allied to NATO. President Trump is furious with both Britain and Turkey due to the British – Turkish alliance against the Americans in Cyprus since 1950 fortified by the British State Sponsored Turkish Military Invasion and Occupation of EU member Cyprus since 1974, so as to provide the British Military bases in Cyprus , a security advantage for the British Military bases in Cyprus against American efforts since 1950 in trying to expel the British Military from Cyprus so as to establish American military bases in Cyprus , which contributed into making the Bush Administration in 2003 make the American Military invade Iraq and overthrow the Saddam Hussein dictatorial Bathist Regime , on the American fear of conflict between the European Union and Turkey due to the Turkish Military occupation of EU member Cyprus from May 1 2004 when Cyprus became a member of the European Union, creating for the US and the Bush Administration , the worlds biggest foreign policy military disaster not seen since the ancient Trojan War as admitted by American Pentagon officials.
The west destruction of the infrastructure ,schools ,hospitals ,roads ,bridges drinking water, in Iraq ,Libya ,Syria ,is what created these problems in the first place and no action has been take to actually rebuild the harm and damage they caused in the first place
Ya think? Duh..
Partly, there are many factors to account for. They did not want to go to other Arabic countries that have simmilar culture. This crisis would not be that bad if refugees would not come from such opposing and violent culture and their refusal to integrate. Also EU politicians who destroyed Schengen and participated in covering refugee and migrant crimes should be charged as acomplices to those crimes and terror.
Do you know how many millions of refugees hace Jordan Lebanon Egypt or even IRAK?
They hve the same culture and middle east could have handled them all. Also it would be closer to them. Refugees trecked accross 10 safe countries. They could have stopped there, and be helped by EU. Shengen was broken for no reason. Now terror, assault and rape is our new normal. People are being killed for no reason. EU leadership needs to answer for this, they are accomplices and enablers of terror
Let me think… What did they leave in Lydia after the nice speeches? What is left of Iraq? What are we offering as a solution in Syria? Did I mention Egypt? Afghanistan? Right…
There is no doubt…. Indians,Aboriginals, and other genuine habitats were perished by western politics.History is repeating.Only in this case we- the western citizens- are the ones will be perished…
There is no doubt…. Indians,Aboriginals, and other genuine habitats were perished by western politics.History is repeating.Only in this case we- the western citizens- are the ones will be perished…
There is no doubt…. Indians,Aboriginals, and other genuine habitats were perished by western politics.History is repeating.Only in this case we- the western citizens- are the ones will be perished…
There is no doubt…. Indians,Aboriginals, and other genuine habitats were perished by western politics.History is repeating.Only in this case we- the western citizens- are the ones will be perished…
No shit Sherlock.
Partially… Middle Eastern geopolitics are the main source of trouble, but the West is engaging and meddling to promote its own interests, so we are equally to blame.
No.
Yes
Not Western but 99% American geopolitics
Anyone who says yes needs to brush up on the history of Islam and the Middle East. Of course the West has some responsibility, but blaming us for everything is, at very least, ridiculous.
It is West regardless of the short glorious era of the Maori..
In my country people say ” don’t mess up the sh…t” mean that if you do you are going to and up full of sh…t….
As I said before, the West has some level of responsibility, but it would be naive to ignore all other factors involved. Western intervention in the Middle East and Norther Africa has in many cases been justified for the wrong reasons and w have failed to carry out our actions completely, so tyrants have been toppled (most notably Saddam, talibans in Afganistan, Gaddafi) but nations have been left in disarray, no clear direction for progress and constant fighting between sectarian groups for power. Some questions going forward should be ¿can our future interventions be successful? ¿how can we ensure success? ¿what can we do with current interventions and their failures? Looking to assign blame without offering clear solutions to present and future issues is a waste of time.
But the problem is that every time we put our nose in the middle east thinks are getting worse…
That’s why we need to address the questions I posted… what’s done is done, we can’t just pick up and leave the Middle East, it’s not that easy. There are positive things we can do now, obviously they require political agreements that are unlikely to happen in the short term. All I’m saying is that we have a problem, but we’re not going to solve it simply by pointing fingers at who’s to blame.
You have a point on this, we have to clean up the mess that west and especially us created in that region even if we are not equally responsible for it but if we are really want to do something we have to take out the radicals and stay there for years if not decades it’ll they are black on their fits again. .
And we have to realize that one way on an other it will be a very difficult process
Agreed, a strong and coordinated presence in areas of conflict would, in the long run, probably help stabilize. Of course it will be a long process but it would be best if we learn from past mistakes. Afganistan, Irak and Libya are, in my opinion, the best examples of what the West considered “easy” and quick operations. All three are facing militant threats as a result of a lack of coordination between coalition nations, especially relative to the aftermath of armed conflict.
Debating Europe; The answer is obvious, but the question is absurd. Of course, European vassal forces, know as, NATO are responsible for the refugee crisis and the destabilization in the Middle East. This people (REFUGEES) are coming to Europe, because we have destroyed their infrastructure, poisoned their lands, water, and air to satisfy AmeriKKKan war profiteers and psychopaths. Your question reveals the magnificent stupidity, ignorance and inhumanity in Europe; especially, by those member nations that created this misery, and have resorted to false flagged attacks and character assassination to justify and fuel hate against our victims in this KKKrusade. Better questions to ask are, who benefits from the carnage, who authorizes these war crimes in our governments, and how soon can we end those military officers and government officials careers, if not their lives.
LOL…. We can smell your anti Americanism and as well as your ignorance. You must be a leftwing bording on communism. Are you aware that the KKK was founded by democrats? And the so called Arab springs promoted by Europeans? Lybia was all EU. Yeah, the left leaning governments in the EU.
I liked your previous post Tony, Colores de sangre y oro lucen en nuestra bandera, no hay oro para comprarla, ni sangre para vencerla! Orgulloso de ser Español!!! #VivaEspaña #NoALaTricolor🇪🇸️ Too bad you cannot see how your misguided, duplicit allegiance is detrimental to Spain and all of Europe. There are 360 degrees in a sphere, but there are more than 800 AmeriKKKa bases and torture chambers around the globe and inserted in NATO, some of them are aiming to fire at our heads. This is not about parties, it is about repudiating tyranny. This is about their diplomacy “Fuck the EU, fuck Europe”. Yes, I am anti-AmeriKKKan.
Well said
Another thing wether or not the KKK were founded by democrates the KKK the American neo nazi party,the ayran brotherhood the alt right and their affiliates are all extreme far right ameriKKKan white supremacist nut jobs .
Debating Europe; The answer is obvious, but the question is absurd. Of course, European vassal forces, know as, NATO are responsible for the refugee crisis and the destabilization in the Middle East. This people (REFUGEES) are coming to Europe, because we have destroyed their infrastructure, poisoned their lands, water, and air to satisfy AmeriKKKan war profiteers and psychopaths. Your question reveals the magnificent stupidity, ignorance and inhumanity in Europe; especially, by the population of those member nations that created this misery, and have resorted to false flagged attacks and character assassination to justify and fuel hate against our victims in this KKKrusade. Better questions to ask are, who benefits from the carnage, who authorizes these war crimes in our governments, who is complicit in the media, and how soon can we end those war profiteers, military officers and government officials careers, if not their lives.
What you have to ask is, would hundreds of refugees be coming to Europe if we were not bombing the shit out of their homeland? And why are we there spending billions of our ‘Inland Revenue’ bombing their land in the first place? Anyone got a straight answer?
However, all the refugees coming from places that are not being bombed are on an opportunist trail. And there are thousands of them. For example those pretending to be children when they are in their late thirties. Hundreds of them. Why are they not sent back to country of origin prior to entry?
Another reason these fleeing their own land is, their relatives and friends already in Europe have told them what a scam it is. How they are fed and housed and receive legal aid so they cannot be returned no matter the level of illiteracy. How, if they arrive sick and with a myriad of complaints in their health, they cannot be returned under EU law. How our police forces have been told to keep it quiet if they appear to be terrorists as they don’t want the citizens of each state to have a reason to demand they be deported. How the same state cover up any horrific treatment this low life brigade treat our females. How mutilation of women and children is hidden from view. And, officials do this because they do not want to admit their idiotic policies of free movement is a shambles in a civilised society.
In other words, politicians do not want to accept they are all, without one excuse, unfit for purpose.
It is not the fault of the refugees, it is the fault of the traitors we have in our collective governments who allowed this to happen. They should be forced to resign and atone for their deceptiveness by being made penniless and homeless without the possibility of ever having a job again. And any of them that came in as refugees themselves, or, were offspring of those entering, should be returned to their family country of origin. With no chance of ever being admitted again.
If you look into it you will find most of them build palaces in their homeland for them to return their anyway. Especially if they are Pakistani, Bangladeshi and so on. It is an eye opener.
In the UK we have criminals in the House of Lords who are immigrants, living in social housing, fiddling expenses they take to build these palaces, yet keep the places that were built for the poor and still find they are able to remain sitting in the Lords after they have been rumbled. Astonishing abuse of tax payers largesse.
Read all about it.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/baroness-uddin-can-return-to-lords-91385
And the Mansion she built in her homeland.
http://www.wow.com/wiki/Baroness_Uddin
Of course there are list of others. this is just a soupcon. there are a few more of them we are still paying for. Laughable.
Νο
Not western, only US and UK.
@Pirvulescu Florin
SO Germany and France don’t exist then?
Nooooooooooo the alien’s
Nooooooooooo the alien’s
Nooooooooooo the alien’s
Nooooooooooo the alien’s
¡Yeap!
Of corse not……
https://youtu.be/FmIRYvJQeHM
99% American geopolitics 1% lack of common European strategy
Leave some room for the age-old conflicts within the islamic world too.
Hmmm…i think we have to always to think what we can do to make better our position or at least not make it worse , i mean we always accept the U.S. policy in that region unconditionally and we are the ones at the end of the day that pay the price. To make things worse we don’t have a common strategy to deal with the problem EVEN Turkey is bulling us around. ..
The greed of the transatlantic oligarchs. They run their politicians, they run their wars and make more and more money on other people’s misery.
The single most responsible is the petrodollar, I think.
Is that even a question?
Seems so. But on the background who knows the real agenda.
the lack of such
aftermath of imperialism and still colonial attitudes towards african and asian regions. and profits before politics.
There are alot of resons. One could be a failed turkey deal
Difficult to seriously question it. The West has for decades interfered in the ME for their own political and financial gain, leading with the US. What’s currently happening with Qatar and how the US is happily jumping to Saudi Arabia’s side refueling the flames against Iran is appalling.
Was that a question or a statement?… I’m actually confused.
Of course there is a short reason for all refugges and all terrorists…
BIG OIL
Mostly to blame!
Is the sky blue?
is it strange to you that they bomb usa , england , france and germany ???
What an absurd idea
O:)
Yes! BUT- the 1,400 year old schism in the Muslim world between Sunni and Shia is the root cause of today’s oldest and bloodiest unresolved global dispute.
No single non Muslim (Western) institution or none Muslim politicians should interfere or intervene to solve Muslim problems. It has to emerge within their leadership. Meddling in their affairs only worsened their feud and (self) destruction- resulting in a stream of refugees to non Muslim countries.
The global Muslim communities need first to unite under ONE Muslim philosophy and ONE Muslim religious figure. Unconditionally accept peaceful coexistence with the rest of the world and end their schism- before asking others to uplift their society. They would have enough petrodollars in their own kitty.
Better advice for HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal would be to canvass his fellow Muslim leaders to unify their faith, instead asking the productive West or East for (more) money. In the meantime their oil will remain their most valuable export & income to play hide & seek with. Not to be wasted on religious feuds, insurgencies, terrorism & destruction.
The atheist EU need to be aware it is not just welcoming & importing Muslim refugees- (“as a pure workforce”), but also their religious schism, feuds & habits as practiced at home.
If not made explicitly to adapt, adopt and subscribe to European values they will automatically (aggressively) choose a similar way of life as the only one known to them since generations. What will it be?
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/10/07/mapping-the-global-muslim-population/
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-01-04/just-became-most-important-map-geopolitics
Absolutely yes!
Most likely yes
Western geopolitics is definitely one reason, but not the only one. Saying that everything is fault of the West is simplifying things very much, as if countries of the Middle East would be some puppets that can be manipulated to fight against each other. Believe it or not, those countries are capable of making independent decisions. They make their own politics, pursue their own interest and make war on their own.
As to what Irmeli said, I agree. Population growth is one reason too – it effects everything.
Top of the morning to ya.
Every EU country is willing to be a transit point for migrants, not the settlement point. Poland is a typical EU country in this context. Now, I’d prefer Ukrainian migrants not stay in Poland but rather go to the Scandinavian countries or Germany or other places in EU space. Frankly, I’m scary of the domestic nationalistic elements that can start a real hunt on the Ukrainian migrants. We don’t need any street squabbles and all that you know. Visa free regime with Ukraine is just madness imo.
NATO = CRIMINALS ( make the crimes in our names thats whats most bad)
Yes. By destabilizing middle east, then by letting them in. Then by not vetting them, Then by cowering up their crimes
For sure!! No doubt about it.
The answer is simple: of course!
What else is there?
Yes, no doubt about it.
European leaders need to rethink their foreign policies …it has a greater interdependence with the middle-east than US….and so always joining US in bombing these countries without thinking of the reprecursions is to blame
Is that a question?
Was that supposed to be a question or stating the obvious?…
Yes. It’s a Shame on the foolishly West Governance.
Why are all of you so naive, the different muslim denominations have been fighting each other for a thousand years, there has never been peace in the middle east. Moreover the death and destruction is caused by other muslim people not the westeners, you are blaming the manufacturer of the gun and not the murderer.
The situation was much more stable when the so-called dictators were still in power!
Politicians have to understand that a democratic regime can only survive if there is a general democratic culture! In that countries, this is simply not the case!
By removing the so-called “dictators”, we have paved the way for the rise of Islamic extremism and the rise of terrorist organizations!
I am not arguing with that, i want european countries to stop any kind of foreign intervention even if it has good motives. But it seems like midddle east will always find a way to start a war.
.
No, the Shia–Sunni Muslim war started 1400 years ago, what is happening in the middle east now is just the latest battle in that war.
ΥΕS,100%
Absolutely
Natürlich
Absolutely
Or should we blame the Marsians?
why do i even bother to look here
Start with the Sykes–Picot Agreement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes–Picot_Agreement
Let’s ask: which countries are responsible.
The US, the UK and France for sure
Then why force refugees on countries like Poland, or Hungary, that never had colonies?
Marco Bianchi US, UK and France, but those who started the war and who fought in the war have no responsibility, is that right?
force? ever read what they signed up for? it isnt a force if they agreed on it…
After ww2 we all agreed to help refugees.
And imo you are not part of the EU I wish to see, if you do not want to help those in need nor accept the democracy that is the EU.
That doesnt mean that the ones to blame should get it but have fun fighting that battle. A battle we can fight is fixing what is broken.
And after WWII some countries signed up to pay for tangible, property damge they did. none of that was realized. We’re at an impasse.
As for refugees, EU refuses to accept Ukrainians, which we welcome here :>
Absolutely!
Poland has nothing to do with it. Isn’t it the rich Western Europe countries that got rich because they had colonies there?
O don’t think the colonies account for the current wealth of said countries. Germany never had colonies (ok one or two in África but more for Prestige than real economic interest, and for a very short amount of time) and they are the richest country in Europe
I don’t think the colonies account for the current wealth of said countries. Germany never had colonies (ok one or two in África but more for Prestige than real economic interest, and for a very short amount of time) and they are the richest country in Europe
André Alves Figueiredo – Germany never had colonies? :O Sure, Portugal had more – so it’s probably you who should feel responsible for the refugee crisis. As to Germany, well, I’m not going to tell the story of WW 2 and how much Poland suffered – well worth the effort of studying… And here you will find the list of colonies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire
And the genocide who is going with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide
Rémi Martin – Yeah, another sad fact …
Isn’t it Poland that is enjoying those Western countries their money? #doublestandards
Said Chakri Please, study the history of Poland so that you can learn about this business more. If you want to talk about money – I bet you didn’t know that Germany hasn’t paid the II War reparation money to Poland – have you heard anything about it? Probably not. Have you seen photos of Warsaw bombed by the German Nazis?
European colonialism in Arab countries lasted 2 decades, in Africa 1 century. There are European countries who have been colonized for centuries.
So many people commenting on something they have no clue about. If we are talking about the real refugees and not about the illegal migrant crisis and if we are talking about the Syria War, then the west is not entirely innocent as the Obama administration encouraged the rebels. The West may have like 5% of the responsibilities. Of course the main responsibles for the war are the Sunni states who actually started the war and who hired mercenaries to fight in the war.
Then we can blame the USA for still thinking of Saudi Arabia as their strategic ally. The country with direct ties to vahabism. They are supporting them to a) Get a bit of cheap oil b) Keep Russias oil exports in check.
But let’s talk realpolitik, is a tiny bit of oil worth it to make such a terrible non-democratic country so powerful?
At the very least partly yes.
yes !!!
All happens for the control of energy & commerce.
Yes, including climate change.
It’s not that simple. Geopolitics and the economy as well.
economics is politics
All started by the Warmongers Tony B’Liar and George W Bush’s invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan .
Yes and no.
It is true that, colonialism before, the cold war foreign politic of the capitalistic world and the comunist world on the third one after and the wars in Iraq and Libia after again, unstabilized north Africa and Middle east but even local states, leaders and peoples has a part (probably the bigger one) of the guilt.
At the same time we must remember that war, terrorism or unrespect of the human rights are only a part of the problem and in the future they are going to be smaller and smaller if comparated to the fact that there is not enought work, food and water in some part of this regions and the peoples of this reagions are going to grow really fast in the future…
The biggest part of the emergency isn’t arrived yet.
Obviously.
Too glib an answer to blame the West there are many reasons. Yes western interference but it also dates back to Russian involvement in Afghanistan thirty years ago.. A huge factor is Islamic fundamentalism dating to the Mecca siege. Every Islamic government is dealing with those that wish a theocracy and some accommodation with modernity. The rivalry between Iran and Saudi have left the region in flames these factors cause a push. Germanys declaration of all migrants are welcome plus the generous welfare by world standards has created the pull.Even the part of the UN, EU and NGOs promoting migration then throw in the tec of the mobile phone and internet that shows migrants a literal road map. When you throw in Europe.s open borders and European navies collecting migrants from the shores of Libya why would there not be a rush
Probably, but religious infighting also had a lot to do with it
No, The “refugees” that are fucking Italy up are not refugees from wars but economic migrants! Actually they parasitic migrants as word spread that if they make it in then nobody will send them back all while they a lot of free stuff. without any obligation to work
Who’s else?!?!?!
The reason that europe is flooded with migrants is because we have no borders and social security, that’s why we’re magnetic to migrants, they are not refugees. This migrant thing became became valid as refugee thing because Obama acted too late in iraq, supplied ISIS and created an oppurtunity for leftist governments to bring in migrants(validated as war refugees) with the promise, you don’t have to work, you only need to vote for us. What a coincidence? Now Europe is burning with a 1000+ victims due to terror attacks alone. And thousands of yezedi kids were raped to death, nothing to do with climax change, you cannot use a hoax as an argument btw.
Wow the stupid is strong with this one
Sure, you and me, set the date, we will meetup for drinks in molenbeek, brussels. Dont let me down.
YESSSSSSSSSSSS!
YEEEEESSSSSS.
In part, yes. Irrational liberal interventionism sure did not help fix such a troubled and complex region. Liberal Democracy is not a seed that can be planted everywhere.
how is this even a question? Of course it is.
I blame Obama and his drive to destabilise the Middle East. All the ‘Arab Springs’, ending of leaderships and promoting the Muslim Brotherhood etc. Think, when did the refugees start to flood the west. And why, after 8 years, was the ending of ISIS no nearer yet, regardless of the Democratic Party trying to discredit him before he started, in 5 months – ISIS is nearly over. Spot the difference. Hmm. Muppet Trump – winner, winner Obama – loser.
That’s a load of nonsense
Funny, the article gives credit to the images but not the author. Was the article written by AI? Or is the author just shy of the limelight?
Binary thinking antiwesterners:
1- If those few strong western countries (not all of them have to do with the thing, of course) do not intervene in a conflict where local people mercilessly kill each other, then ALL the western countries are THE CYNICAL CAPITALIST WHO LET INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE AND THINK ONLY ABOUT THEIR INTERESTS (while people killing each other is just fine, they have no responsibility according to the anti-west).
2- If these FEW western countries do make an intervention there where local people MERCILESSLY KILL EACH OTHER, then ALL WESTERN COUNTRIES are GREEDY IMPERIALISTS WHO INTERVENE ONLY TO EXPAND THEIR INFLUENCE. Seeing their tendency, I guess the anti west people find being a western country to be politically incorrect. I guess antiwestern is a mental dissease.
Meanwhile refugees find western countries way better and more welcoming than other countries.
Has the UK not been bombing militarily weak countries to “democracy” directly and indirectly (eg arming Saudi) over decades, that profits it’s death industry (seemingly 2nd largest export after EU trade) at the expense of countless deaths and stiffing Europe with an unwanted migrant flood ?
Countries such as?
First UK is not the whole EU, then the EU is not the whole Europe (but almost, all right to that), and the whole Europe is not the whole West.
Then I’d like to see how the UK holds responsibility in the above story, anyway.
I think obviously yes – has the UK not been bombing militarily weak countries to “democracy” directly and indirectly (eg arming Saudi) over decades, that profits it’s death industry (seemingly 2nd largest export after EU trade) at the expense of countless deaths and stiffing Europe with an unwanted migrant flood ?
I think the US was behind that one
Sandra Wright you are right the US is to blame as well but this is debating Europe. What I write about the UK is a fact and its despicable
First UK is not the whole EU, then the EU is not the whole Europe (but almost, all right to that), and the whole Europe is not the whole West.
Then I’d like to see how the UK holds responsibility in the above story, anyway.
Argentina belongs to western world as well
Refugees are fleeing from countries where people kill neighbouring people or.minorities, or from countries.local politicians destroy throuugh corruption. No one is fleeing from countries “being bombed” by the RAF (Royal Air Force).
Dionìs KC seriously ????????
Who the Hell has been bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia and Syria to “democracy” using the RAF brand and selling weapons to human rights champion Saudi Arabia in the name of the UK ???? Darth Vader ?????
Yes, seroiusly. And spoon producers are responsible for making people fat, right? Makes no sense blaming the weapon producers, even less blaming the whole West ; blaming the whole West for the whole countries who have conflicts and poverty even worse- kinda anti west bigotry based on exhageration, hate, ignorance, or non all of them together.
Who is killing who in Iraq and Syria? Not many Amish soldiers in there. Iraq was ruled by a war criminal, Syiria and Libia have had inner problems.
Further on the UK hipocrysy scale.
THE UK HAS been bombing militarily weak countries to “democracy” for decades.
Evidently, as your disgusting “spoon example” …………………. Clearly there seem to be no moral thoughts about the hundreds of thousands killed and the UK death industry welcomes the blood profits but … again the UK is screwing up Europeans with an unwanted migrant flood into Europe.
PS further on your disgusting spoon example … spons are made to feed, weapons are made to kill …
I think it was the fact that if they sat in a dingy they would be picked up brought to Europe fed and housed.
No doubt
Geopolitics. Not just the West’s.
Młodzi mężczyźni zamiast walczyć o swój kraj uciekli zostawiając rodziny w tym piekle czy tacy zasługuja na jaką kolwiek pomoc? u nas nawet dzieci walczyły jak Niemvcy napadli na Polskę.
Human greed.
War.
Europe is peace, they said…
Civil war, dictators, religious persecution ? Nah, blame the West.
In the dictatorship is Us a bad part in takeing away good people and put there bade one yust so their business can bloome
It’s Soros and the globalists of the EU.
Nee
Sure it is!
And spoon producers make people fat, right? Makes no sense blaming the weapon producers for the wars( it is the rest of the murdering maschine, the human holding the gun, that makes the difference), even less blaming the whole West ; blaming the whole West for the whole countries who have conflicts and poverty even worse- kinda anti west bigotry based on exhageration, hate, ignorance, or all of them together.
Who is killing who in Iraq and Syria? Iraq was ruled by a war criminal, Syiria and Libia have had inner problems.
Then yes, the United States of America have brought democracy (rule of the people) to many countries. It is just that many people confuse democracy with eternal peace, and have false expectations on foreign armies keeping peace in their country for them (or in other countries). Further, apparently not all countries can deal with democracy, or at least not with sudden democracy, especially those with inner problems, and that is really sad, it is actually in the long run as sad as the beutal wars they could currently have or have had.
MORON
Francis Kelly, a really “articulated”, “enjoyable” input from your side, you mono-neuronic genius. Zzz-zzz- zz
Dionis KC, how easy it can be to produce rubbish!
Bear>shit>woods
Yes. All driven by the greed of the few. Their greed costs millions of lives and $trillions and these fucks must be punished.
Western geopolitics is ridiculously naive :-) It causes a lot of unwanted complications and politicians are blatantly reluctant to admit the mess their actions actually produce in that sense.
yes, I profoundly agree. EU acts as a puppet during US-lead aggression in the middle east.
Yes especially the earlier one. And also the present on how western companies are allowed to do what ever they want outside eu and same goes for the Fisherman
The problem is that many of the countries borders are unnatural and made primary by the former Collinal countries. Ant today’s exploitation of Western countries and Fishermans from Western going to Africa and empty the sea. And also the Effekts from the climate change begin do add to it. Mistreated as economics refuges.
Also climate change may I remind you. Even Macron in his G20 speech clearly understood that everything is connected.
Would be good to add other to the debate which are not part of the establishment. Asking only eu military and politicians will most likely give a pretty much on sided debate. Ask some refugees to join, some average citizens,…. a debate is only informative when different perspectives are put forward
absolutely, not only the wars also the delivery of weapons to oppositional groups, even terrorists – its all about gas and oil, yes they are responsible. If there is a ‘revolt’ just follow the money and what do you find? The USA behind it or UK or both or other countries in the West. there is no innocencer there. That’s why they have also no mercy with the refugees. The terrorists were created, f.i. the Taliban could only grow because the US paid them to help them push out the Russians.
they are completly capable to fight without us
in Syria there is over 20 armies in 4 big allience, it is a tribal war driven by religion
Yes always blame someone else, always play the victim..
…by making itself an easy target and putting feelings above reason and law
Not sure now much ISIS cares about that. Mostly they just take advantage or Iraq being destabilized and reconstruction falling short. ISIS does not care about your FEELINGS.
I was talking about EU. However ISIS cares about feelings, but only their own and are ready to kill for it
someone is to be blamed, definitely…
You can hardly claim that the crisis in Syria is started by its legitimate government, unless you twist and turn the reality. Therefore, Western but especially Saudi geopolitics are root cause to the current mess.
Yes! Start with Merkel
You mean the people who step in where Europe is too mean to help out? Leave it to European socialist leaning leaders and the whole of Africa will move in.
There are many and different sorts of refugees and we are all well aware of it. Those who come from areas at war undoubtedly need protection. The problem is that one billion from Asia Africa want, are encoureged and in many ways pressed/forced to move to western countries. Only if they learn that Paris has been transformed into Islamaband will they stop migrating to Europe. Poverty and mainly the dictatoric regimes, the depression from the father, older brother, uncle, priest, police and generally an unreconstruced society and any form of obscuratism force the people depart their countries. The question is why they do not change when they are found in the country they selected to make their lives. Religion and not only. And this If we really want to be pragmatists. I have lived in a country where my colleagues earned more money than i did. All of them wanted to leave because, ”it is not life the life i live here, no freedom, no women, no drinks”. It’s a pity but they have to change their destiny.
YES. Next (stupid) question, please.
i guess the guy bombing his own citizens has nothing to do with it
Its so easy to blame one specific decision. Just reality is conflicts that are in Middle East started long before we got involved. Even if we would stop selling arms to allies and let those be. They would continue to kill each other. They would just buy arms somewhere else. As soon as our armies would withdraw opportunity would be seized by those militias that would fight for supremacy. Just like it happened in Iraq. When USA left Iraq there was vacuum of military power and that gave opportunity for ISIS to take control and push out shia Muslims and rest of non-Muslims from that region. Sectarian conflicts are fighting for resources in interest of islamic states. No matter how much anybody objects nobody is really interested to stop doing it. Until all those that are involved in wars want to have peace there will just be war. But that is no excuse to allow importation of their war in our countries with mass immigration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7cdBjYd2Bo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East
Definetly!
Its true to an important extent, but that doesnt mean those atributing it to external factors, islam, population growth, etc… Are wrong, its just those things the west couldnt control, while it could control the interventions, now even this is difficult, as it is hard to oppose the US inside the NATO framework, so id say the lesson to be learned from all this is if europe wants to control its own future it must be self sufficient, i am sure a meeting of the EU27 would not have intervened in libya the way the US did, would not have supplied weapons the way the US did, and would not have provoked the russians in Ukraine the way the US did, and maybe we wouldnt have these refugees, but in any case that cant ve changed, what we neednto do isnlearn from our mistakes andblook at the future
Self sufficient, united europe in full control of all its Economic, cultural but especially military assets with a European Army, Navy and Airforce is the only hope for world peace
America is responsible and Europe have to pick up the pieces. America has destroyed these country’s so they can’t live there anymore.
Pipeline politics / geo economics = geo trouble for the innocent
Yes and Europe is importing future unrest!
The Brussels crazed drive to create a united states of Europe as created the ‘migrant’ crisis. Does ‘One People, One Nation, One Leader!’ sound familiar ? Europeans have learnt nothing from their history and are destined to repeat it. Thank god we are leaving the EU dictatorship. :)
Definitly yes
Who’s responsible for the people at Debating Europe constantly recycling the exact same articles for months at end, and who’s paying them?
Its says it’s an NGO,but I have my doubts as it seems to be a propaganda page for the EU to make you think you have some kind of say in things….
Of course
If You tend to look at failed afghanistan and libya cases and listen to angry muslim voices you might tend to stick to this cheap argument. For a change look at iraq and syria managing war nicely. Its failed Mackarel who opened gates to hell and she and her club should pay for this mess.
People who hate and discriminate and kill are to blame. You can’t blame cuttlery producers for the obesity in the world , just saying.
This western politics blames belong to the same matrix with thoughts such as “western people are to be blamed”, “western people are to be punished” and other anti-western propaganda.
To some extent yes. For too long have brutal dictators being propped up and supported with weapons for ‘ strategic reasons’. The people in those countries are paying the price
USA army need to leave europe and end occupation sinc they are our main enemy in europe.
No the failure of Islamic states and African states
Totally yes
List of reason for mass immigration/refugee crisis (in order):
1)Wars, interventionism, coups
2)People who let them in.
USA is the biggest cause of it. The EU is also guilty.
USA is the most dangerous nation and the biggest warmonger and interventionist since the end of WW2.
EU is like a puppet and goes along with it. Several EU countries bombed Libya in the name of “democracy” and “human rights”.
For me Neoconservativism and Interventionist Liberalism are evil.
It plays a part
yes indeed, the US interests, their geo politics and their influence on agricultural development in Africa and Soutamerica, ruin existences and land
Have you seen Africa????
is there a tragedy that Western people won’t be blamed for in this world?
“”There are millions of blacks who could come to the Mediterranean to cross to France and Italy, and Libya plays a role in security in the Mediterranean.””
– Muammar Gaddafi, 2011
If we did not pay for their needs they would not come here.
Of course!
Given most of them are migrants from Africa and not refugees from the middle east the actions of the west has had a very limited impact on the movements of people. There is only one institution to blame for the invasion & that is the EU.
Invasion what are they coming in with tanks,plans,rockets,machine guns
Oh please
Its the British – Turkish alliance in Cyprus against the Americans since 1950 , that is responsible for the refugee crisis, since the British – Turkish alliance in Cyprus against the Americans with British – Turkish hostility with the Turkish military threats against the EU to the ascension of Cyprus into the European Union on May 1 2004 countered by French led EU military threats on Turkey , provoked the Bush Administration into committing the world biggest Foreign Policy military debacle in Iraq, which American Pentagon officials admitted the world has not see since the Trojan War, that resulted in the overthrow of the Saddam Hussein Baathist Regime , without creating a Sovereign Federation Nation State of Kurdistan stretching from Mesopotamia to the Mediterranean that would act as a Buttress against illegal immigration to the EU.
Funny that you blame everyone else for your problems, do you need a safe space by any chance ? lol
Ivan they are undeniable truths . We want €600 billion in damages compensation from the British State via the Bank of England and the treasury as fitting compensation for the British Crimes against the Greek state from 1967 till the present that resulted in the current economic situation in Greece , all a result of when the British State through the British Monarchy requested from Prince Phillips cousin in Greece – the foolish former Greek monarch Constantine to establish a Military Junta in Greece in 1967 , that was later postponed till 1974 whcih was all part of the British designs in Cyprus against the United States which had begun in 1950 , when the Americans initiated a campaign to expel British Military forces from Cyprus , whcih was countered by the British through a alliance with Turkey against the United States that was solidified in 1974 with the British State Sponsored Turkish Military invasion and occupation of EU member Cyprus since 19764 that has provided the British Military forces in Cyprus a security advantage against American efforts to expel the British from Cyprus and to be replaced with establishment of American military bases in Cyprus
Strange you ask such a question…..i thought you were in the news ……..
cut the social funding and you will see how fast imigrants presure drops
Given that most liberals with bleeding hearts only want to rescue the “persecuted”, (not that they know the difference about who is persecuted and who is not) would just sit by and welcome all and sundry into the West, I expect they will all nod wisely and blame those who have tried to stop mass genocide in these barbaric countries. They cry if we sit back and watch, bitch if we try to help and turn a blind eye to dictatorships as long as they keep the killing to the odd 25000 or so.
Saudi Arabia is a western country now?
Now everyone is on the queue to kiss their ass. They can be anything they want, as they have western Europe and USA support for it.
100%
The Iraq invasion which started the second world war, still going on, is, by far the main cause of this crisis. Caused by nothing else but western nations alleged geopolitical issues.
Did someone write that “we” went to Iraq to “help” people?
Ask grandma Merkel, who’s never going to be a biological one, as she invited them all to come! But the problem is that they don’t just go and stay there. There all over now! And btw, they are economical immigrants, refugee is something different.
Like all the inmigrants from the east of Europe and slavs countries that we have in Spain? And many of them are just criminals, should we kick them out of our country?
You are just racist, xenofobic
and disgusting!
And a fucking inmigrant yourself!
Hope they treat you like you deserve!
Of course, it plays the biggest role.
Its USA foreign policy with Soros financial support to make chaos and destabilize Europe countries.
Do not kill other peoples children in their resource rich countries
Absolutely. Or do you think all those Syrians just want to leave the country their were born and have their entire life possessions? When we stop playing games with North Africa and Middle East politics, then we will finally be able to say we strive for peace. So far, we strive for war.
Absolutly as always. Stupid question isnt it?
Not at all, african and mid-eastern countries unresponsible demography and social inequity are.
United states geopolitics… But now the EU has awakened and rises! Go EU!
Wealth, just as people move from poor rural areas to richer urban areas. In the world of the mobile phone the poorest people can now see richer lands far away. Then there is the push of badly run countries and oppressive ideology. There is the push of religious evangelism, go conquer the world. There is also a cultural destruction run by a intellectual elite who suffer others to live by their God Complex flawed dreams. A business class who love cheap labour or cherry picked skills for their profit. Plus rich lobby groups who throw money at a narrow undemocratic social experiment. As you said at the start it’s complex. But the small indigenous nations of Europe will soon not exist. Maybe another 15 years.
ofcourse, dating back to pre ww2 and beyond our thinking.
The question should be a little bit more specific: is NATO’s geopolitics to blame for the refugee crisis?
And the answer is yes! Absolutely! And this is just a further reason to quit NATO!
no
Most certainly. More on the USA side for decades of meddling in affairs completely outside their “responsability”, but european countries and UN are also accountable for! No doubt
Escaping Boko Haram or ISIS, means escaping the influence of petrodollars spent by Saudis to spread Wahabism…
Which is spreading as quickly in europe, named salafia and with the same sponsorship.
Ye$?
Boom/bust interventionism which serves the corporate kleptocracy is to blame. Wall Street needs Glass Steagall 2.0!
Most of the refugees come from countries destroyed be the west!!Irak, Syria, Afganistan, Lybia etc!!what more evidence you need!!!
Not really…it is the lack of economic reforms…lack of social reforms that..saying that…the refugee crisis of the last years have been caused by the west..
Greedy Manipulation.
Its so convenient to just blame the west for all troubles there. But in reality wars in Middle East are competition for resources and ideological supremacy between Saudi Arabia and Iran with allies on both sides. Only way to stop this kind of conflicts is to find cheap alternative energy source that can be massively produced. Just those countries producing and exporting fossil fuels would have to diversify their economies or economic collapse would be inevitable once fossil fuels are no longer needed. Without those 2 trying to destroy each other for decades there would be no interest to export weaponry in that region. There was no peace in Middle East for more then a century. Just reason that those came in our countries is not because of those wars. But because you openly invited them in and supplied them with transportation, goods and capital. You have chosen to ignore your own laws and now want to blame anything else but yourselves. All the misery that western world has suffered because of that decision is completely on politicians that blindly support mass immigration. Political shift and total mistrust of EU is your own doing. Now such are so desperate that would rather lock up their own populations for unwanted opinions than it is address your own mess. Yet you need to wonder why some countries want to leave EU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veMFCFyOwFI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East
So instead of importing foreign masses just establish secure zones closer to conflicts and bring basic supplies there. Cause it would be much cheaper and none of our populations would need to care on what happens in Middle East. Least of all would be our concern, if Saudi Arabia and Iran want to destroy each other. Just to be realistic there will be no peace until those 2 actually want it. So its either proxy wars with financing and arming of islamist militias or direct military conflict that will determine geopolitical influences in Middle East. Just the reason that west is involved is no mystery to anybody. Every country needs energy to sustain their economies and therefore have no other choice than pick a side and protect their investment. Which ever country controls exports from Middle East of fossil fuels get to influence other countries that require those resources.
https://counterjihadreport.com/2015/09/17/muslim-immigration-and-how-to-handle-it/
http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/refugee-crisis-facts-and-myths/
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6489/muslim-immigration
No. The main cause is the failure of the Arab Spring and the spread of radical groups. Many countries have become failed stated. The difference now is that Europe is making it much easier to get in.
If Obama hadn’t retreated from Iraq, the zone would be stable. We should blame him.
If Obama hadn’t retreated from Iraq, the zone would be stable. We should blame him.
What else?
By destroing their countries!
Arab Spring? Religious wars between Sunnis and Shiites? Islamic Fascism?
all funded by western oil and interests…. who messed up with Iran and Iraq and etc?
Are you referring the war started by Sadam Hussein (Sunni) when he invaded Iran? Or are you referring the war started by Sadam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait? Or may be you are refferring the war in Syria when Saudi Arabia and the oil Gulf monarchies supplied all Sunni rebellion groups against the Shia Government. Or…
Who else, Einstein..
All the countries in the world arte to blame!
Definitely yes!
Mabye in part but just in part
Да
European politics and Obama politics
We dont need a debate for that, the answer is yes.
JEWISH Geopolitics in fact !
Not the only cause, but yes.
Most certainly yes
This comes from the narcisistic western view of the world where the world is dependent of us and everything good or bad is our fault. The reality is probably closer to the inevitability of ear being precipitated by the lack of support of regional leaders.
Well, the Syrian and Iraqi civil wars are to blame, together with the inadequate Middle-eastern US policies.
Yes. So what? Is there a geopolitics in the first place pursued by Europe? I doubt that. Putting the blame on your most despised politician will make no change. Adding to the comfortable morality of self induced bad conscience will help neither. Acting in the interest of one or several states is the business of politicians and power. Those countries bargaining with Europe have their own interests as well, let’s not forget that. We are undergoing a test of how serious we, Europe, are taking the challenges we pledged to prepare for aka Human Rights. We did not. Blaming, if you will, geopolitics I find wrong. To me it seems that the fear of making a bad impression in your local news is the reason for foregoing a decisive and concerted foreign policy of Europe.
A Greek saying :” When you spread winds you get back storms ” it’s suitable for the case
NATO/EU 100% guilty nato is enemy numero 1 of all europeans.
Partly. Middle east was allway volitile. What played big role is the promise of “free stuff”
Russian and Usa geopolitics fights for oil…
Europe just pays the sequence of theirs war.. million of refugees emigrants and moneys
Dumb & dumber
Arabian spring movement
Promoted by whom?
Mário Lobo , promoted by Barack Obama
do not forget Hilary Clinton was a progressive warmonger… You can blame hers We came… We saw… He dies … about Gaddafi less than decade after he surrender Libya WMD program in exchange to peace… for current North Korea development… and lack of options as no one can guarantee it leader he not end the same way…
These countries are continually warring against themselves over religion. Let them sort their own crap out and don’t bring their internal affairs to the West.
– Could you please stop calling them refugee’s, even the unelected European Politburo accepts they are mostly financial migrants looking for free handouts.. – No, Idiotic EU policies and Mad Mama Merkel are responsible for the ‘migrant’ crisis.
The question is a joke irrespective whether it is asked seriously.
Western world is controlling the lives of arabs and other ethnic groups for centuries with no legal grounds for that.
1. They have been fighting the same religious war for 1400 years and nothing the west has done as made a blind bit of difference to that war.. 2. The West does have the ‘legal’ right to defend itself from the Middle East’s medieval ideology.
Maybe we fought against the future terrorism through several famines in the first part of the 20th century. And maybe you will point out the legal grounds for at least one military intervention in the last 30 years?
Or maybe you missgather that most of the terrorism in Europe is on the account of descendants of the former colonies of European countries. Where we performed so well, we are still loved.
Yew but not only . Sinds first gulf war in 1991 and all military interventions in middle east , 4 millions people died in this region . 4 millions of deaths ! After that , we can not just be shocked to see radicalization and violence coming from there . We supported and still dictatorships in middle east for many years for our interests . Usa and Europe sell weapons to dictatorships that oppress their people . ( Saudi Arabia Egypt for example ) . We talk about human rights , women s right bla bla but we have very good relations with countriew like Qatar or Saudi Arabia or Egypt .
Is this a statement, a doubt or a question?
Those would still want to kill each other whether we would be involved or not. So no the only reason that we got this mess for mass immigration is because you decided to let in millions by ignoring your own laws. EU is not going to just push blame on someone else for this. If you don’t want to fix your own mistake then nobody will trust you with anything anymore. Choice is yours. Only thing that is expected for our allies is to respect our geopolitical interests and especially protection of petrodollar. Just this arrangement is hardly one sided and it is what allowed those Arab countries to get so rich in first place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veMFCFyOwFI
freedom for catalonia
Catalonia is free. You’re free to fight for an independent isolated and poor Catalonia.
Not only is Catalonia free, Spain was created by an invading army that included the Catalan army and proceeded to massacre people in the rest of the peninsula, so spare us your BS.
Yes, to some extent.
No, islamic schism is reponsible .but the west have proved incapable of resolving it….if you accept they have any responsibility
Stupid question because it’s too narrow.
Yes, absolutely.
Duhhhhh
Maybe the one of the US, but that would only make it for the Iraqi’s refugees…
Nahhh we just blow countries to the ground… lool
The answer is in your question.
freedom for catalonia
Troll. You know? Leave Spain, fine. Only Spain cares about that. However, that means you’re out of the EU for good. Good riddance.
No, EU inaction, blocking, and swift deportation
Definitely
islam is probably the biggest reason
Do not forget that American and European corporations move entire African countries as they are pleased because they have money and they enslave people like old colonies did. Then we have wars brought by Americans and blood call blood
Can you give me a clue where to read about this ?
50/50 with those countries” dictators.
I am afraid that could be the case
In great part, yes.
Military interventionism is principally at fault
Europe’s refugee crises is entire to be blamed on Angela Merkel
Nope but how The Dublin order Was set upp in The först plase. It is doomed.to fail due to that Only a few is supposed to take in refugrees.
Yes espessely is This an aftermath from The former colonies and how their bordet is drawn. But also due to we letting many extremism running The countries from The 70th. USA have also a bit role in This. And The close border that Was from The W W 1 due to to mutch nationalism
Yes it is to blame.
Right. The implied answer is we are to PAY for it, right?
Of course. Don’t have any doubts of it.
politician corruption is the real cause
Arab Spring, a revolt against dictatorship and economic underdevelopment, the war between Shias and Sunnis subsidized by Saudi Arabia and Gulf monarchies, and a failure of the economic system.
Warmonger lunatic policies
Kinda
Nope,it’s the Martians to blame.
It’s nothing new greedy white men have been invading poor nations for gold, diamonds, rubber, coffee, minerals, spice, oil etc and last they will come for water. White men support dictators and militias, they destroy democracies and now that colonial snake is going bite them back.
the lack of…
Yes definitely…Western policies destroyed Libya,Iraq and now Syria…and this helped ISIS grow strong and massacre european citizens…
Stavros
And the refusal/delay to go green energy, the refusal to nationalise banks and take banking out of private hands, and the refusal to nationalise defence corporations. It is down to these three greedy corporations energy, banking and defence corporations that there is geopolitics, poverty, exploitation, wars and no peace, no happiness and no quality life for all people on earth.
Yup
Obviously. Western countries went to the East to make wars not minding at all the consequences, just leaving destruction behind.
You are incorrect, we went to Middle East to protect ‘our’ interests which is our right.
The West isn’t behind every bad thing that happens in poor countries, that’s just a colonialist and racist idea. Used mainly by western leftists and corrupt local leaders, for different reasons.
It’s a multipolar world and one part is the West, so there is some western influence, but these wars and atrocities wouldn’t happen without locals and their allies in Iran or Russia or Saudi Arabia eager to do them.
More than that, Western countries are responsible for most of the shit in this world for the last 500 years… Any doubt, just look to numbers…
It’s a financial migrant crisis not a refugee crisis and its the idiotic open borders policy of the EU and pro EU fanatics that are to blame.
What is the obvious answer as long as things remain bad
c’est ça ! et pis quoi encore ! mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa… l’Europe est/était/sera chrétienne tant qu’elle s’accusera de tous les maux de la terre.
Big business… the refugee one!
Yess
yes it is!
All for oil….
Yup, pretty much.
Is water wet?
European geopolitics might be the slowest kid in the classroom..
Há um conjunto de factores, todos eles inumerados neste material, que não permitem resumir a um ou dois predominantes. Nuns casos serão predominantes uns factores, noutros serão decisivos outros factores.
There are a number of factors, all of which are enumerated here, which do not allow to sum up to one or two In some cases a number of factors will be predominant, in others other factors will be decisive
More precisely: the oligarchs who influence geopolitics so that their corporations and investment groups can gain more profits from the resources/markets/transport routes plus weapons sales.
Yes and No.
The wars and interventions cause problems and destroy States (Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan etc). But poverty and overpopulation are the major reasons for the refugee/immigrant crisis.
The Eastern Mediterranean have to deal mostly with refugees from war-torn States, Western Mediterranean have to deal mostly with immigrants from poor and overpopulated African countries.
Some African states also have legitimate wars and political oppression. DRC and Somalia are war torn. Eritrea is a totalitarian regime. The Ecuatoguinean opposition fled to Spain for political reasons.
Meanwhile, Afghanistan, apart from being ravaged by Islamists, is also profoundly impoverished. Indeed all of the war torn states you mentioned are also poor.
I agree broadly that violence and poverty are the main drivers of goal migration now – more than political persecution (although that certainly still exists as well). But there is a *lot* of overlap between war torn countries and impoverished countries and for many migrants it’s probably a mix of both motivating them. It’s not an either or thing.
Let’s not see ourselves as the only race capable of making choices.
Of course not, the lunatics running those countries are to blame. But it should noted that the vast majority are financial Migrants not refugees and they are heading to the EU because of the failed Socialism policies of African countries. Next to fall will be South Africa and when it does the whole of Africa will be at war with itself and the migrant wave will turn into a migrant invasion. Have fun 8|
Down the pub we know him as Ivan the Oracle. 😜
The refugee crisis from *where*? There are many different refugee crises with different causes. You can’t expect an intelligent public when the questions posed to them are dumbed down, Manichean nonsense that invite ignorant replies based on a priori value judgments. Ask a stupid question and you’ll get a stupid answer.
Well,….. Yes
As simple as yes. The bl**dy UK and the bl**dy USA are largely responsible
Theodoros Don’t forget Russia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran…
Mathilde they all played a role, but most of it begun with the arrogant UK painting lines on a map calling it borders. Then the USA intervened in the internals of most if not all states there. The states you mentioned play their role too of course.
Not the dictators who were killing their own people then ? It’s seems the only claim you are making is the crime of the West for trying to stop the lunatics, can we assume you prefer to live under a dictatorship ?
Ivan most of them if not all were backed by USA.
Theodoros That could be a legitimate claim but you have to know the reasons for the American support before saying it was all bad, ‘better the devil you know’ is a legitimate foreign policy when it’s goal is to reduce atrocities and protect life & Western civilisation overall. The West is supporting South Africa so when that falls apart over the next couple of years due to Socialism will you blame the British & Americans for that as well ?
Ivan defenately there are no simple or easy answers, but the fact is that they intervene for at least the 21st century and now they have created an eternal hatred against the west. When you do some actions, you bear the responsibilities of your actions.
Theodoros I agree and would enforce a no involvement policy unless it directly affected Great Britain across the board, which would include not protecting EU countries.
Ivan ye Ivan, but now the damage has been made. Not sure if or how we can reverse the situation.
Theodoros What damage did the West do ? They wanted independence so we gave it to them, the mess that they have now is their responsibility, nobody else’s. They are not children and we are not their parents.
Ivan its very hard for me to explain to you if it is not obvious to you.
Theodoros The only thing that is obvious about your assertion is that you blame the West for the problems of the world with no evidence. For instance the left usually claim the West was responsible for slavery even when the facts are the West is the only civilisation in human history to ban slavery. To understand the problems of Africa and the middle East you only need look at the regimes running those countries & you will find that are exclusively either Islamic or Socialist, you don’t need a made up boggy man of the West.
Blame USA for all this crisis
And not the despots, dictators and religious fundamentalists running those countries ?
Ivan In Europe we don’t have those problems wright?
Not solely..despite the tendency of some to blame all the worlds ills on a secret cabal of corporations and oliharchs…wars in the middle east and north/sub saharan africà have been fought for millenia..the oull of better lives in western europe is not new…most population dtives happened east/south to west. .
Sure because Europe has been a oasis of peace. Maybe it Europe allowed the middle East develop into nation states rather then dividing it up things wouldn’t be as bad.
Micheál You think there would be peace in the middle East if there was no Western Civilisation ? Seriously ??
Yes, regarding it’s impact in europe.
Yes especely the USA.
But a real crissis was it only for The refugees not for The states. The only problem. With the stats is that they moutly are intolerant against others. Economicly we can have afford to take mutch more especely If we tager the immigrations och sitizenschip under the EU parlamentet
Yes. I understood that in ’89 was decided to stope all totalitarity regims, not only comunist countries. At least in comunist countries was a level of development.
But to many countries from orient wasn’t prepare for democracy, also economically and also ideological reasons.
It obvious that the emigrants think that If occidentale civilization distroy our countries we want to live in development countries to beneffit by civilization. I believe.
Except for Syria, there’s no refugee crisis, but economic migration. The root cause is the failure of African countries to develop their own economies and to rein in population growth.
Yes. But not for the reason which is usually cited. Western countries shouldn’t have allowed for the Arab Spring to happen, and should have supported existing Arab dictators helping them remain in place. It was those dictators who kept the region stable, not the attempts to create democracy in a region which is not ready for it.
But you need to destabilize in order to take control of the region. And of its natural resources.
Sure, but Western powers already had considerable control over these resources, albeit not a direct one. In addition, some countries such as Tunisia, Egypt and Syria don’t have any resources.
So I don’t think resources were the number 1 reason.
On the aftermath of ww1 western powers drowned straight lines on the maps to share the land and the OIL too each regardless of the ethnic and religious diversity of the region
On that time the Europeans (Greek people included) do not recognised the ethnic groups in Africa.
The European have a not clear idea about the large diversity of black African people having different nations.
They either do not study their very different African languages. The Europeans nations in general do not cared about the understanding or existence of the African religions.
Probably only Portugal and Brazil where aware of these diversity and do to the near 500 years of continuous trade with the sub-Saharan African kingdoms.
Either in Brazil the black African showed to have a very strong religion that was preserved during slavery and up today.
Manuel but the problem isn’t just north Africa see how the Arab states was created or Israel
I mean the British politicians have all ready from the 50s admitted that they ” sold the same horse twice ” ( Israel/ Palestine)
War produces unbearable living conditions
This living conditions produce refugees
And who created all those doomed to failure states? It was the French and the British in first and the Americans in more recent years
Also what had Greeks to do with north Africa? In the 1920s The only ones they were in contact with was the various minorities of the ottoman empire and they were recognised all off them in hope of gaining more allies in the war with Turkey (1919-1922)
Παυλος Dear Paul, the problem of the west expansion (and Greece is the east side of the West :) is very de deep on history. And probably started in the time of the fall of Constantinople :) by the Turks.
With the conquest of Greece by the Turks in the 15 century the West (or the remaining Europe) understood that they could disappear.
The reaction was immediate by the Spanish on attacking directly the Turks on Greece’s land and on the Mediterranean sea, and by the Portuguese moving by sea to cut the trade made by the Turks and others in Asia and sailing around Africa up to India and China. The naval war on the Indian ocean between Portugal and Turkey is very little know but it happened.
Yes. And one entirely brainwashed person spamming all over the topic. If all cars are against you – know that you’re facing the wrong direction.
It’s all about € & €
Absolutely the West is responsible. The Ilegal wars in Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, etc. Western support for proxy terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Syria. Western countries are spending obscene amounts of money on weapons for so called “defense.” It’s disgraceful and has contributed to the worldwide backlash against the establishment political parties. Western governments are nothing more than lobbyists and protectors of the transnational financial elite.
The image is quite appropriate for the question! It does make for the symbol of “Western geopolitics”!
Western AND Regional geopolitics.
For example in the Syrian conflict which is not a civil war but a regional war all the regional countries are involved using proxy armies or fund certain armed groups (Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc).
Mass migration caused by wars, climate change, persecution is a world wide issue…NOT restricted to Europe…however whilst the EU attitude and policies remain incoherent it will continue to fester in the body politic here.
Yes but not only
Of course. War in Syria was not necessary… To force people’s to adopt democracy is silly…. War In Syria and Libya are to blamed
its way older than this im afraid.
Mostly yes
YES, but I would just say politiciens.
Enric, who are the Western politicians? the president of Andorra maybe? Or more the one of Lichtenstein? :) the point of my question is that the terms used here (the west, western politicians) are generic to the point of being useless.
First step towards producing a terrorist ready to kill western civilians is blaming and demonising the West as a whole for all troubles of the world. There is no way around this. A terrorist kills abd damages what he thinks is the enemy of his cause or the responsible of the perceived suffering is people go through. You can call a terrorist crazy but you cant say he waste his effort for targets irrelevant to him. He attacks what he is brainwashed to see as his enemy. This Manipulative question+foto combination is helping it. Western people create their own problems and enemies with propaganda like this more than with anything else.
Questions:
– do you consider cutlery producers accountable for obesity?
– do you consider people from countries where refugees come from as inferior beings who can’t be held accountable for their actions and hence you need to blame their wars on a third group? Probably not. They are people making war as many other people have done in the past. The point is, who kills is more accountable for the killing that whoever you add to the “equation” with your twisted reframing of the situation. People are running for their life or from poverty from their countries obliged from aggressors from same region/country/ethnicity/physical appearance. The aggressor being either wanting to kill/invade/ oppress them, or their own politicians stealing their wealth and hope for the future.
Think twice before who you chose to denigrate. You are attacking, dehumanizing and.denigrating. the west is where many of these refugees find safe haven after running away from their own people. The west is which.created and bears this humanistic culture. Don’t let it die. Praise it, or it will die out cos of neglection. Praise it, or countries which aren’t being as welcoming as these, they not only won’t adopt western attitude, but they won’t even respect it!!
The real causes of these troubles are laughign at us.
Your framing of the topic does not make sense, because it belongs to a world view not designed to make sense, but to be destructive, to lower the western people and civilisation while that minority of real troublemakers who pay taxes in fiscal paradises (and have no relevant relation to western people) sit back watch. They love the arguments and fights between the poor, and the poor keeps falling for it, always.
Partly. Good idea: Afghanistan, Mali, Somalia; Bad idea Lybia, Irak
YES Through regime change, regime installment, and war.
In some parts, yes. The invasion of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taliban regime was unwise, as if no lessons had been learned from the Soviet adventure there 20 years earlier. Prosecuting and destroying al-Qaeda and its training camps could have been more easily achieved through missile strikes on training camps and special operations. Even more stupid were the unnecessary and mendacious invasion of Iraq and the disbandment of the Iraqi Army. The first one pulled the plug on the regime keeping the Shia-Sunni rivalry in the Gulf in equilibrium, while the second essentially plunged hundreds of thousands of men with military experience and access to weapons into poverty. It is no coincidence that many found their way into the ranks of ISIS.
The list goes on: Arming and training Jihadis to fight against Gaddafi, half a year before these then surprisingly try to establish a theocracy in Mali? Check. Arming “moderate” rebel groups months before they join ISIS in Syria? Check. Maintaining close ties with the states that are well-known to either spread religious fundamentalist doctrines or directly finance terror organizations? Check.
While the West cannot be blamed for everything happening in the Middle East, its policies throughout the 2000s and early 2010s where close to a geopolitical clusterf**k. The next stop on the road of policy blunders would be a war between the U.S. and its Middle Eastern allies against Iran.
Of course.They created new slave trade using the fake term refugees
Of course.
No, local politicians in Africa and Asia are to be blamed…by the way, the european ”collonisation” was yet quite human compared to what the chinese do in Africa now…
Wrong. If Africans had to choose between European imperialists who rule them, enslave them (e.g. in Congo Free State), oppress them (e.g. Rhodesia, apartheid South Africa), and outright massacre them (e.g. the Herero-Nama genocide in Namibia) on one hand and Chinese who want the continent’s resources in exchange for building infrastructure on the other, they will choose the latter ten times out of ten. In fact, the widespread presence of Chinese enterprises all over the continent couldn’t be explained if Chinese were behaving despicable throughout Africa.
Mr Vana – are You serious ?
Definitely and syria being mentioned is just a really small part of that.
The way we treat Africa but also the middle east in trade is the reason.
And with competing nations I find it rather normal (not saying acceptable). Now as Europe is trying to become closer, we can also have a conversation about better geopolitics. Not just because of Europe but also because Russia wont be a real threat anymore with a united Europe.
Arnout, who is we? Western business companies aren’t owned by the governments or people, cos western countries dont have socialist regimes. Unless you are a part of that 0,0001%, you are not part of the we.
Dionìs, they are part of the west and frankly there where also owned companies.
Point being when talking about the west we are talking about the west. Not about 1 personal individual.
And we have social regimes due to the wealth we took from others.
Anyway I am part of the we as I live here pay taxes and my life is clearly not outside of the influence of what ever makes the west.
Also companies not owned by the government like to lobby. And we all like to work there. Shell was really kind to its employers for instance. Not so kind to others.
Society is not just made by 1 company or group its made out of all of. And thus also our geopolitics.
Arnout, so these powerful companies which “give us things for free” seem to be so powerful that,
despite they
– employ 30 people each in western countries (rest kicked out long ago due to outsourcing,
– and they make billions in cooperation with 3rd world corrupt dictators,
– they pay taxes in fiscal paradises,
– sell for very high prices to western people products produced for nothing overseas,
and hence have little connection to western people (not more connection to them than to countries where they do production or those they pay taxes),
STILL
– they seem so powerful in BRAINWASHING that they have persuaded all the world, western world included, that the average western person is responsible for what they do, so that they can sit back and watch, and laugh.
Dionìs, and they can laugh as society is doing nothing about it. While some of us try to get tax havens out, like the EU wants aswel.
Society is again made by its people so that if society alows companies to do so then they do so. Legal or illegaly. And its society that lets them. They might be bad but without you acting, it wont matter.
If people below dont take responsibility for what they buy then so wont corperations.
Arnout, name me specific western or better European countries that owe their prosperity to “plundering the world”. Last time I checked western Europeans study at school more about the American civil war then the combined former eastern block, hence they call Europeans from Crete to Lapland “rich, evil, white privileged former colonisers and former slave traders”.
I assume you feel European, which is a great idea per se, and which I share; but I have to ask you something in that regard: does your idea of Europe involve more than a shared guilt? If all you have to add to us Europeans who have nothing to do with plundering and oppressing the world is a “shared guilt for being evil to the world and plundering it”, then please, please, stop “feeling European”!
Dionìs, I dont feel european, I think borders are rediculus. So all I can feel is human.
Try your luck with the dutch :)
And we all are part of it so we def have to do with it. East and west, the east probably even more with the corruption levels there.
It seems you can only think in past slavery. While its all around you.
Climate change is the easiest example of how humans operate when they should actualy do something. They can hardly put off some meat.
And thus ones own fault aswel that we are not solving it. Funny thing is that when stuff enriches us we can achieve great wonders but sinply reducing or standing up for something requires something more.
Yet you didn’t answer any of my specific questions, so…
Delete, hide or report this
All I can see is empty anti European (which is not same as antinEU) slogans,
It is naive, to say the least, to think that
WHILE
those companies are actually more related to the production lands than to the lands where natives similar to its 13 shareholders and where this companies sell their goods, and where these companies took jobs from,
PEOPLE LIKE YOU find it moral duty of these western societies to be ok with outsourcing and losing jobs, but they to have to fight against the exploitation of and for the rights of these third world countries’ workers, which are actually not forced to work in those jobs. So many duties for the westerners. I bet people thinking like this either think people outside the west are inferiors who cant be held accountable of their actions and control of their countries, OR they pick ontoweest cos they simply hat the guts of western people.
A simpler question:
Why a company that takes jobs from, say, Italy, sends them to Chinese workers, sells goods to Italians for 69x the production price, and pays taxes in Luxemburg,
WHY this company is more related to average Italian working class (often jobless) people than to China (or Luxembourg, or Panama…) ??