Plebiscites are always a bit of a gamble. Politicians like call them in order to legitimise controversial policies, but the ruse can backfire spectacularly (especially if voters decide they just want to use the opportunity to give the government a good kicking).
British Prime Minister David Cameron learned the hard way when he attempted to calm his rebellious backbenches by calling an EU referendum. Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán’s recent referendum to reject EU refugee quota plans also failed (he won the referendum, but it was declared invalid because of low voter turnout).
The most shocking recent example is possibly Colombian President (and 2016 Nobel Peace Prize laureate) Juan Manuel Santos’ referendum to approve a historic peace deal with the FARC rebels (which he lost, potentially torpedoing the peace process).
Coming up, we have Italy’s centre-left Prime Minister Matteo Renzi, who is risking it all by calling a referendum on constitutional reform, aimed at reforming the senate and improving Italy’s notoriously poor record of government stability.
We had a question from Ingmar, sent in via our Suggest a Debate page, who wanted to know:
Should the EU be able to sign such great projects as CETA [the EU-Canada free trade deal] or TTIP [the EU-US free trade deal] without the approval of individual voters?
Large trade agreements like CETA and TTIP are almost always so-called ‘mixed’ agreements. This means they require ratification not just from the Council and the European Parliament, but also from all 28 (soon to be 27) national parliaments. But should each citizen be given a direct say in whether TTIP should be approved? Or would that undermine representative democracy? Have people had enough of referendums? Or do we need more?
Should European countries all hold referendums on TTIP? Or is it enough for national parliaments (and the European parliament) to hold a vote? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
161 comments Post a commentcomment
yes!
To say that because the result of a Direct Democratic Vote doesn’t agree with your views that this is some kind of failure is ridiculous. It should be perfectly normal for citizens to have a say if enough signatures can be gathered and verified on any given issue within the rules of that system(no slavery etc.). Brexit was no failure, Orban’s Rederendum was no failure, the Swiss Immigration Initiative MEI which actually brought similar demands to the UK before Brexit that was accepted was no failure, it’s simply the will of the people correcting the course of the political class, a course that is often guided by what is good for a politician, his political party and his donours/lobbyist’s. In Democracy nothing is more honest than the people’s vote. CETA & TTIP will bring about a new legal situation with significant implications and as such the people who would be affected should have a say. It shouldn’t even be up to the Government or the Parliament but should be up to the people to gather the necessary signatures to initiate the vote if such support exists within that society.
.
Why ?, the unelected European Commission will just ignore them as they always do.
A much better idea is to hold a referendum in every country to see who actually want to be in the EU.
Of course! Let’s live democracy!
no. this issue is too complex for the average person to have the time or understanding to make an informed decision. brexit all over again.
Not true. Brexit was a situation where the average person wasn’t given any/all of the relevant information and fed a pack of lies from both sides of the campaign. It has nothing to do with the “average persons” ability to make an informed decision and everything to do with being given the information to begin with aka being informed. So long as all the facts are published for the people to view then they could well make an informed decision.
The EEC/EU had 40 years to give the people of the UK all the facts, figures & benefits of being a member and it either arrogantly considered the public didn’t need to know, or more likely it’s incompetence and poor management meant it didn’t even know itself…that is why Brexit happened
In short Cornel, I find it ultimately very telling that the people in politics amongst others who probably assume they are the exception to the rule they cite, believe that the people of the world have no idea what is good for them or bad for them or that they have no ability to comprehend. I find it very telling indeed that people of this opinion seem to assume a level of stupidity in everyone else. Also, if we are to assume this to be a valid point, then democracy has to be stopped immediately. Surely if the people are not competent to decide on one matter (such as if a trade deal is ultimately worth while, or I their country is better off in or out of the EU), then they also cannot be considered competent in deciding who they vote for in local and general elections. So, if your argument has any validity we should therefore replace democracy completely with some form of official dictatorship for our own good. And since you’re argument is based on ability to understand matters it needs to be the highest IQ’d candidates that run this dictatorship. Would that make you happy?
@Cornel Moșneag
There are millions of people able to understand such relatively simple trade deals.
FYI, it is the 21st century don’t you know – the vast majority of EU folk can read, write and evcen tie shoe-laces!
Cornel now you go repeating that same old nonsense, I wish to highlight that most Parliamentarians are only knowledgeable in one or two fields. EG Plenty Lawyers in Parliaments, DRs, Real Estate Owners, Finance people, Wealthy people, Philisophers, Historians etc., now my point is this when the Press talks about the issue for weeks sometimes even months and undoubtedly in the case of Brexit that you quoted even Years then there’s a huge debate going on in that society at all levels, and regardless of whether I or you like the result it is those people who voted that must live with the result and its consequences. Anf there is no reason why a Real Estate Owner Senator would be smarter on Brexit than a Social worker or a Pilot or maybe a Jeweller. Democracy is no game of pick and choose your favourite thing and get it.
and against CETA and similar illegal acts.
Either national ot EU-wide referendum should be held, if all info is declasified.
YES, but PRIOR TO A REFERENDUM:
1) An INFORMATION CAMPAIGN should be funded and run by the European Commission
2) A KNOWLEDGE TEST should be submitted to ALL REGISTERED VOTERS.
3) A KNOWLEDGE COEFFICIENT should be assigned to the result of the knowledge test.
4) Votes should be WEIGHTED AGAINST THE RESULT OF THE KNOWLEDGE TEST.
This is the only way we can prevent disasters like Brexit to happen again. The opinion of people who are COMPETENT on any topic should COUNT MORE then the one of the ones that are not.
Time for an EDUCATED DEMOCRACY!
See, I agreed with what you put. Right up to the point you think that brexiteers were not competent to make the choice they did. The reasons for wanting to not be in the system that currently is the EU form a very long list. If anything I should say a more informed Britain would have voted to leave by a larger majority.
@Andrej Němec
Hmm, not a fan of universal suffrage eh?
Brave New World and all that?
Referendums: never! But a parliamentary vote, YES.
Should TTIP even be on the table for consideration (in the form that it was done) if Brussels weren’t betraying all European citizen for personal gain and greed?
YES
Yes.
Everything I’ve read suggests that TTIP of bad for workers in the EU and the US. Basically only elites in both areas benefit.
YES … 100%. The whole World should express itself, as elements of TTIP will affect as anyway and irrespective to our eventual rejection in EU.
yes
Nope
These are not trade agreements, they are slavery and control agreements.
@Ariste Arvanitides
Well said!
Right on!?
We saw how CETA worked out. Democracy matters little for corporate Europe
European countries shoud ban these treaties as fast as possible
Yeeeeees!
Yes. And Direct Democracy should be used in the same way it is in Switzerland, for every State in the union.
Rule cannot be acceptable when it goes against the welfare and the rights of its people.
Totally agree Catherine
No
EU should hold a referendum regarding NATO’s membership!
..and the question would be..
“Do you want to leave the only thing that is stopping Putin walking into Europe?”
@Paul x, I think Russia would be the least of the non NATO EU’s problems militarily.
Yes
Of course.
Every country should hold a referendum for staying in that rotten hole called EU.
Why France are on the verge of vetoing it if america doesn”t make concessions and if they veto it, it is dead in the water so referedums would just be a waste of money.
Only because of outdated modes of balloting. Electronic technology has made vast leaps that our balloting (and indeed our entire political) system have almost completely failed to take advantage of in order to save money and speed up the vote casting process, not to mention availability of comprehensive information to the voting publics with regards to matters of policy.
What would be the point. They will take no notice and throw bile and threats at the “populists” that disagree. I’ve got a better idea leave. And let’s have an EU of cooperation where each state can do what suits it best. It’s a radical idea, nation state democracy I know.
If they do the answer will be to reject it, and as the EU know this already why are they bothering to continue negotiating it?
YES THEY SHOULD!!!
Not only for TTIP, for CETA as well!
This concerns peoples life and there is no politician that should take this decision alone!!! At the end this is the real democracy!
People don t even know what TTIP is.
Likely to be like the vote for Brexit
If you mean on account of the people we are supposed to be able to trust to guide us towards a fully informed decision, then yes I agree. Ttip has been done behind closed doors and you are kept out of the loop of hard facts. Just like we were during our referendum. But unfortunately for David Cameron and the rest of pro remain, the underlying facts of what the EU has caused/failed to prevent in the past and the knowledge of how it was evolving into a superstate without our consent were already public record. Ttip’s has many similarities in these respects.
didn’t they say that there wouldn’t be any TTIP?! Who wants it? Who needs it?
We citizens in EU need analysis for TTIP
OUT of eu, NO to ttip.
Of course they should, but there’s no way the undemocratic EU will allow it as they have made up their minds already!
I think for a guage of the public mood on it rather than a legally binding referendum although an on line vote could do that, but there is nothing good for the consumer or citizen in TTIP, the only winners are corporations, take a look at the problems the poor Candadians are having with American corporation suing state governments left right and centre when they try and make them comply with state law. TTIP is not good for anyone other than the super rich. Yanni go to war on want, TTIP is very adequately explained there.
equally look up how the State of Alberta is being sued by Nestlè, how much more info do you want?
TTIP – approved by national parliaments only.
no
after it is well presented, yes.
YES…100%
YuP
Yes
Of course!
yes
There should be an open and transparent debate about the TTIP, in order for the European population to deeply know about its potential content, and avoiding therefore myths that are being propagated by certain currents and are actually falsenesses.
Agreed, but much more important, repeat your post and replace “TTIP” with “EU”
abso-effin’ lutely
Si!
Before referendums people should get real 360 info.
It has to be done but won’t be done because the people will reject TTIP in most countries.
well, if so, most countries will vote yes
as the masspeople is stupid , it doesn’t make sense
@Marial Loutsch
Written like an intellectual giant! :)
well considering the mass stupid ppl r the ones that pay when companys sue their contries,ye we shouldnt have a referendum for something that shouldn t event be negotiated
Let’s hold a referendum for every decision…..
NO , we should have EU referendum , all EU citizens should have referendum on the same day .
Affirmative 😄
yes they should and I can bet that they all want out the EU
Sim.
Yes, why not? Citizens deserve transparent information, the right to vote is basic. Democracy shouldn’t be just a word in a speech
yes yes yes we need to know what exactly is this TTP
Yes, citizens should and have to be involved but they have be INFORMED. No one until now even tried to inform us.
No, the EU should abandon it as a whole. Moreover, if the EU cannot find a way to lower trade barriers with all countries – not just the USA – it should quietly cease to exist and let each country trade with with every other country on whatever terms it so pleases. After all, trade is based on the principle of having what somebody else wants and exchanging that thing for what you want that somebody else has. Money is merely what facilitates this exchange. At least, it should be…
If CETA has to be voted upon by Member States Parliaments, as has already been decided, the Member States can decide themselves to hold referendums. Logically, TTIP will follow. And thereafter also any trade deal between the EU and UK. Not that sure the latter country is looking forward to that prospect.
Should never be considered.
How would a referendum of twenty seven different nations work?.Suppose fourteen nations voted in favour and thirteen voted against,would that mean the citizens of the thirteen would have to accept a referendum result their own voters had rejected.
Well, yes. Just as Scotland and Northern Ireland’s majorities voted to remain in the EU. Where there is a communal decision then majority rules apply.
Not only trojan ttip CETA as well
Yes, but the implications of TTIP should be explained.
YES
CETA as well.
Yes
Yes, but they won’t.
The leaders run the EU to suit themselves, not the good of the European people.
Thats why we’re better out.
No referendums are never a good idea, usually someone ends up dying because of them. giving veto to european member countries is another bad idea.
That said it should have been negotiated openly and they should adress our concerns. Europe exists for it’s people, allowing american’s to enforce the same crappy rules that have ruined their country here is a bad idea.
Yes, because having referendums about highly technical issues that people usualy won’t understand—or even read— has proven to be such a good idea.
What is ttip? I am spanish, and here information is nule. No info at all a bout ttip
TTIP are secret negotiations being carried out between the EU and the US with the aim or harmonisation of trade regulations which could potentially:
Lower EU food standards to those of the US allowing GM and food full of growth hormones and pesticides to enter European markets
Allow US corporations to buy up EU public services
Cause job losses as work goes to the US where workers rights are inferior
Referèndums independència Spain are forbbiden
f yeah !! everybody should vote on it !! just for the fun of it !! all the countries should vote at the same time !! in the same day !! lets make it a vote for Europe !! a chapter in the democratic hart of Europe …
Both CETA and TTIP are so far reaching in their implications and consequences and so detrimental to whatever vestiges of democracy we still have that they should be roundly rejected.
Since the EU political elite seems to be working for the transnational corporations rather than for the good of their own constituents, only the people themselves will have the wherewithal to act rationally regarding TTIP and CETA.
Democracy is overrated, the Elite understand things so much better than the general public.
Based on what evidence? I will concede they have a better knowledge base of what’s going on behind the scenes, but that’s because they make it that way. In an ideal government there wouldn’t be any behind the scenes to begin with.
not needed…
TTIP should be STOPED.
Are we even allowed to read it yet? :p
but EU politicians are in the hands of IMF; Wall Street and other criminals… so they will rule very soon
Yes, the EU of 40 years ago is totally different to EU of today.
Over the years the EU has taken more control of EU countries. Germany is the party in this. It seems Germany tryed to take over Europe over a 8 year period and lost and now is trying to take control over a longer period without using weapons.
Fernando Santos
If there is to be a referendum it should be one for all the EU.
thing is most of the citizens are not aware about TTIP and it implications. Do a referendum in those therms it’s a half way for a “disaster”.
Those who are not aware about TTIP check here http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1230
It might be an idea to organise teferenda on dead things. The ones on real issues have turned quite nasty lately.
YES THEY SHOULD HOLD REFERENDUMS…EVERY CITIZEN SHOULD BE GIVEN A COPY SO THEY ARE FULLY INFORMED.
Should the EC/EU be dead sure it’s an “EU ONLY agreement”- the EC would have just gone ahead & ratified it- no further questions asked. A European Citizens’ Initiative (ECI) to stop TTIP was already rejected by the European Commission & is going before the European Court of Justice.
It demonstrates the EU’s rabid complicity with the globalists against the “tiny”- but life saving- bit of remaining sovereignty by Member States & all its tax payers.
Since both CETA & TTIP are “mixed agreements”- where certain contract conditions infringe on members “remaining” (thank heavens for that) sovereign competences- it needs the full consent of ALL 27 Members in the Council. (UK is out by 03/17 & “safe”)
Should an unanimous acceptance by all 27 NOT be possible- than there is NO DEAL anyways- no referenda needed! Maybe some parliaments are prudent enough!?
Referenda would only make sense if ALL 27 head of states or ministers in the E- Council would most likely consent & agree- against the majority will of voters.
Under such circumstances “BINDING” referenda should be held- considering the varying & different referenda conditions which prevail in each & every Member State.
EU exit to day, over and, out, people get it,
Yes …without a doubt ….too many decisions are made behind closed doors for ALL the EU CITIZENS
referendum in EU? That is a jock?Every single no will turn to yes!!!!!!!!
no becuase they go manipulate the resultes of the referenduns dont trust the syshtem
The EU can’t have a referendum . That’s only for democracies.
At least the text wouldn’t be secret anymore!
What a ridiculous idea. The countries and people that want to be part of the federalised EU where they make all the decisions for them by unelected muppets should live with whatever they decide.
Do you remember what happened in 5th July 2015?
Of course. TTIP is a scandal.
YES
Sure, if you want no decision ever to be taken, call a referendum on everything.
NO TTIP,,,,,,SLAVERY
No. We don’t want ttip, and if the EU cares about it’s people it should say no too. Even the EU has admitted Europe would be loosing job places that would be shifted to the US instead; governments would no longer be able to decided upon their territories interests or their own people. Our markets would be flooded with gm food and poison and the law would no longer be on our side. We would loose rights, jobs, health…. Why would we even consider such a evil treat is what I don’t get!?
You’ve effectively answered your own question……
“and if the EU cares about it’s people”
Yes
Just say NO to TTIP
Yes
The last thing the EU needs are more referendums. There are enough avenues in representative democracies to influence the agenda. TTIP could be beneficial if the right checks and balances were in place.
Eberhard, what avenues? c & b…….”could & if”……… are they?
Any negative consequences and disputes arising from such deals are proven legally very complicated to foresee & contain. They mainly grow & enrich the legal fraternity to the detriment of the State & taxpayer to eternity.
Why not insure a (global) company’s investment, against any perceived risks. Too costly? The unwritten “risk & reward” principle still applies! There is too much global money sloshing around.
The taxpayer is not to be used a substitute for private insurance companies to absorb risks, whilst the “rich” investors run a business with the least risks. Talk of rich company rewards, falling standards, “sweet talk of job creation”, cheap consumer goods & some import tax savings- (which have to be replaced & made up somewhere else) are not good enough reasons to hand our life over to corp-orates & banksters.
NO special clauses to sue a government! Take it or leave it! The whole- but mainly the underdeveloped world needs to get rid of fraudster politicians & despots. The global financial sector forced to close all tax havens. Starting with Luxembourg.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/10/obscure-legal-system-lets-corportations-sue-states-ttip-icsid
Yes. The Lisbon Treaty is proof enough that the EU prefers to ignore the citizens’ opinion when it comes to major issues, and that must be put a stop to. Those who say that “complex issues are beyond the comprehension of common folk” only want to further their agendas on the Q.T.
Most of them are still in Greece so y
Most of them are still in Greece so y
Why ? We should reject it altogether !
Interesting, should we also go for referendum on our respective MS’s taxation policies?
Definitely YES.
No, TTIP should be dropped completely. Tell the EU the people do not consent to giving too much power to corporations, all these favours from cheap labour to stealing taxpayer money for ‘loss of profits’, deregulation and privatisation. Most people haven’t heard of TTIP, will not get informed and half don’t vote. The EU has a duty to protect all EU citizens and should stop looking for backdoors in.
Plebiscites? Δηλαδή οι Πληβίοι, η Πλέμπα. Πολύ δημοκρατικό τον βρίσκω τον αρθογράφο. Κάποτε στην αρχαία Ρώμη η πλέμπα, ως η κοινωνική τάξη των φτωχών και ακτημόνων, επηρεάςτηκε επί τα βελτίω από τον Τιβέριο Σεμπρόνιο Γρακχο, για την προαγωγή της Ρωμαϊκής Δημοκρατίας και της αναδιανομής του εισοδήματος και έκανε την διαφορά έςτω και για λίγο. Σήμερα είναι το άλλοθι των πολιτικών και η “ντροπή” των “δημοκρατιών” τους; και μ´ αρέσει που το περνατε έτσι και κανείς δεν σχολιάζει τι γράφει ο μαλάκας.
They should hold referendums for this but nobody will do it.
Yes but they should also hold a referendum on membership of the EU.
At least that way. You could really know it’s what the people of Europe want. Instead of guessing.
yes.
After brexit i came to the conclusion that populations are sheep everywhere…so…i dunno…
NO! A referendum is only valid IF and ONLY IF those voting for it are well informed and not tricked into some populist answer.
So, if you want to even consider a referendum on TTIP, open the document to everyone, explain what each clause means, and then and ONLY THEN hold a referendum.
But DO NOT play games with referendums, especially with TTIP that has hidden clauses on allowing companies to sideline national and international courts.
Note: This also applies to all current elections.
NO! A referendum is only valid IF and ONLY IF those voting for it are well informed and not tricked into some populist answer.
So, if you want to even consider a referendum on TTIP, open the document to everyone, explain what each clause means, and then and ONLY THEN hold a referendum.
But DO NOT play games with referendums, especially with TTIP that has hidden clauses on allowing companies to sideline national and international courts.
Note: This also applies to all current elections.
@ Nando:
I take it you mean well informed and not duped like the prospective so called leaders of the free world are doing presently. The way it was done in this debate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRlI2SQ0Ueg
Take note the email cheat and wife of the adulterous and alleged rapist tells her opponent his locker room bragging makes him unacceptable to be the US President. Yet, when her husbands victims complained of his criminality she went for them in the ‘lowest of the low’ manner one woman can against another. Meaning, both women were exploited by what she decided to stay with an back as President in his day. Surely the public have been informed enough by this poor old lady who is terrified of abandonment if she doesn’t give the White House back to her beta male.
Has this most obvious information, given to the ‘women’ of the US, made them any more educated on who should be their leader? I don’t think so.
Hi Nando! Please try and eliminate your double postings by deleting one of your registered e-addresses with DE! Thank you!
Where is “your rule” to be found?
It is the nature of the EU Council to negotiate in secrete as long as possible!
Are you aware that there are parallel negotiations going on between 23 WTO members in the TiSA talks in Geneva?
The European Commission negotiates- based on a mandate issued by the governments of the EU’s 28 members with the likes of: Australia, Canada, Chile, Chinese Taipei, Colombia, Costa Rica, the EU, Hong Kong China, Iceland, Israel, Japan, Korea, Liechtenstein, Mauritius, Mexico, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Panama, Peru, Switzerland, Turkey and the United States. The EU has no free trade agreements on “services” with Chinese Taipei, Israel, Pakistan or Turkey.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/tisa/
It is an European business, so if we want a referendum it should be at European level, not by countries. Democracy implies one citizen, on vote and all European votes should count equally. It is not fair that a single country decided for the other 27 countries.
Alfredo, that is not how the EU functions! It is not possible nor desirable under the prevailing rules. Please get better informed!
we should but they won’t
Yes
sure.
YES
Of course not. The anti-EU brigade are have already poisoned the minds of the oh so well informed populace, on a topic on which judgement should be made only by those capable of evaluating it.
…….. and who is that select lobby group of trusted & “capable” corporate contortionists (advisers)- exempt of democracy?
Yes! But people should be educated about what it is, first. Most of people don´t have a clue of what´s going on in
this world and how much CETA or TTIP can harm us…
…..ok, but how & who should educate “grown up” voters? Supporting a Nanny State?
No, they should hold referendums on EU itself! My vote is OUT!
If EU were true democracy , then each member country would do this…..
Debating Europe is just creating a poll with every post. Its like they are acting on behalf of EU, they want to see what people think.
Asking IF we should have referendums is like negotiating democracy.
Absolutely! EU cannot decide in the name of the 28 member states. Or there will be war!
No, TTIP should be binned.
TTIP should certainly be made more transparent, as the negotiations on the deal have been notoriously opaque and impossible to actually grasp. If we manage to get transparency to that point, then, and only then, would I support any kind of referendum on the issue.
I agree that this should happen.
Yes!
No due to the fact that the projects mustn’t be made without approval of the individual votes. Otherwise, there could be flaws in the project.