Can a person belong to two (or more) countries simultaneously? Can they keep a sense of patriotism and loyalty to more than one flag? Or is citizenship just an abstract concept, better suited to the outdated nationalism of the 20th Century?
In theory, a passport is nothing more than a simple document. Until World War I, passports weren’t required to travel internationally, and few people held them. And yet passports have symbolic importance, and are widely seen as a badge of citizenship.
In the UK, The Sun newspaper is campaigning to bring back the old “true blue” British passports as a “symbol of our independence”. People care about the trappings of citizenship, and (besides flags) passports hold pride of place among them.
We had a comment sent in from Yaz on our ‘Suggest a Debate’ page, asking whether new citizens should be forced to give up their old passports. In other words, should people only be allowed to hold one citizenship at any time? We’ll be recording interviews on this topic, but we also wanted to throw it out to our audience: What do our other readers think?
Should new citizens give up their old passports? Should people only be allowed to hold one citizenship at any time? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take it to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
75 comments Post a commentcomment
Yes.
I emigrated to Australia in 1970, when I was 20. I have been back and forth between the UK and Australia a lot. I consider both countries to be my home and I miss one just as much as the other when I am away. I know both countries, the people, the culture, inside out and I find both to have different but equal attributes and negative aspects. I love London as much as Sydney harbour, Cornwall as much as Bondi. It is like marriage, just because you have a marriage certificate does not mean you love your partner or are loyal to them.
Are you sure this page shouldn’t be “debating fascism”? Seriously… talking about patriotism and loyalty in the XXIst century???? We are European…. not French or English or whichever of those nations of the past… We push and strive for and in a multicultural society…. Nation states and representative democracy should be abandoned for a new system… I could imagine and propose a few… and social aids and unemployment benefits should be restricted or abandoned in order to promote the best and naturally rid us of the flawed ones… without distinction of who they are or where they come from…
I can’t believe someone could be even stupid enough to still mention such things which are in the end remmnants of our common obscure past
…….please explain just 1 of your new advanced multi cultural systems & the flawed “REMNANTS” ones……….!
Surely, the EU eagerly awaits to be enlightened by you and will highly value and richly reward any disloyalty shown towards them- even if you burn the EU flag to prove your unshakable believe in globalism- even beyond any sensible doubt.
@Sebastien Chopin
I don’t want the UK to be associated with many of the countries in the EU, especially the likes of France which has been recently rated as one of the most ‘risky’ nations in the world.
Well I `ll defend my countries name for the rest of my natual life.
The EU brought us nothing then trouble, but You`re free to keep Your head in the sand, and believe the EU propaganda all You want.
I `ve been proud of my country for almost 60 years, and didn`t believe and will never believe the EU nonsense.
As someone who has both the French and German nationality, I would say no. For me, the passport is an important confirmation of my identity, because it proves that the countries to which I feel a bond acknowledge that I am their citizen. The only passport for which I would give up my French and German passports is a unique European passport.
Who still believes, in 2016, that there is some kind of PRIDE or MERIT to be born in a certain country instead of in another, is a dead man walking. The idiotic notions of nationalisms and patriotisms will inevitably fade d with time.
What does it mean to be German or French, anyway? That one should go around eating baguette or currywurst? What about people that have parents of different origins? Moreover, modern countries are not a determined entity, but they are the results of thousand of years of history, wars, mistakes and decisions. There are wide divisions inside every European country (just think about Catalonia, Scotland, Bavaria). Should we split them in little pieces so to reach some kind of uber-regionalism?
Religion and nationalism are the ruin of humanity.
Right on!
@Il Grifone Polemico
Add politicians and Latin culture to your list please.
I think sometimes people don’t live in the real world, or view it through a very unique perspective. Nationality is a fundamental aspect of the human psyche taken form and manipulated by country leaders to enable people to go to war willingly. People need to belong, we are a social animal. Yes, somebody can identify as belonging to two countries at once, provided those countries provide an individual with a state of belonging. But this idea that nationality is dead is so far removed from reality . . . . . . . .
Well I imagine there are several billion people with “idiotic notions” currently supporting and being proud of their country in the Olympic games
But I suppose in your utopian fantasy world sport becomes much simpler, one football league with only seven continental teams? the Olympics will be over in just a couple of days though some continents will be severely handicapped at the winter olympics?
A passport is not a demonstration of citizenship, patriotism, loyalty to whatever, etc. A passport is a travel document. Period. Not much different from a vaccination certificate or a plane ticket.
A passport is a response to travel barriers imposed by politicians and ass such devoid of any nationalistic loyalties.
Demonstrations of patriotism and loyalty to whatever belong elsewhere!
A passport is not a demonstration of citizenship, patriotism, loyalty to whatever, etc. A passport is a travel document. Period. Not much different from a vaccination certificate or a plane ticket.
A passport is a response to travel barriers imposed by politicians and as such devoid of any nationalistic loyalties.
Demonstrations of patriotism and loyalty to whatever belong elsewhere! If at all.
Hmm……….. before qualifying for a passport one must first be born somewhere. (valid birth certificate) Animals don’t think, unlike most humans- both can get vaccinated & receive a certificate. Try travel with it or prove your real origin! “Alien control”- of course unheard in the small but progressive EU since Schengen.
Some elites & high net worth persons can “invest” in a second passport. “EU” residency is a business & for sale- not to an ordinary person.
NO. Every passport reflects a piece of identity of each individual.
I know a spanish woman married with a british. Their children have both nationalities😊 I hope they will not lose any of both. They are europeans.
From where? “Refugees & economic immigrants”? To be made (proud) “NEW EU CITIZENS” on the EU supranational assembly line? Why? Are we looking at personal convenience, accommodate mafioso’s or save a dying continent or what?
EU/Euro: ~10% unemployed, 20%-47% youth unemployed, stagnant economy, everybody over indebted! Send our youth on a Pokemon or rabbit hunt so long?
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics
Thought, R&M meant to be temporary & return home? Why expect loyalty? Naive? They are, will & need not (only to Allah) be loyal to the EU or anybody else. Some might be (temporary) grateful? Need servants? What about the “Cairo Declaration.”
http://www.oic-oci.org/english/article/human.htm
Every “NATION” with a VALID Constitution- who is still proud to be one & possesses one- has LAWS to clarify that (dual passports). “EU experts”: if unsure, please ask the local MP. No need for more treaties!
Future Olympics & international events could however save on medals, anthems (only the “EU” one), flags & teams! How supranational, unitary, pc & glorious global!
” Future Olympics & international events could however save on medals, anthems (only the “EU” one), flags & teams! How supranational, unitary, pc & glorious global!”
Perhaps for 2 or 3 generations ahead an idea.
But I pray for Europe`s sake and our DUTCH economy the whole mess of EU is solved much sooner
I rather work 25 years longer and pay heavy taxes in a free country, instead of expierencing Europe suffering under EU trouble
Im portuguese, Im not “europran”, my passport should therefore be portuguese. Simple as that. It is a question of logic.
This is not an EU is starting to resemble the Soviet union
Passport for what..
If I was tired of my country I would love to stay in a country that offered me a job.. if I am trying for the Denmark..hope they will do the same too.
Once in the ex-SFRJugoslavija they used a species of passport the so called
” Prepusnica “that covered ( temporary )
a transit alongside a small part of
both Slovenia/Croatia countries.
It s each person s choice. We decide not politicians.
What about double voting? I don’t see any harm in a double nationality with regard to travel or as part of someone’s identity. I, however, do object to people participating in multiple democracies. For example, people living abroad with a double nationality experience political consequences in their home country differently than people living in the country itself. In my point of view this can be seen as some sort of cherrypicking. Perhaps there is someone who can dispute this?
You raise a good point. It was in my opinion one of the big reasons immigration was such a big problem with regards to the UK referendum, but nobody else seemed to pick up on. When the workforce of a democracy are made up of a disproportionate number of people with no political voice, the working class get politically ignored, their needs go unmet in favor of demographics that can win votes. And as a result the working class of that democracy will feel isolated, cut off and ultimately will rebel in one way or another against the system.
Well what do you say to a 10 year old daughter with a British mum and Dutch Dad???? Of course I think she can hold two passports and of course I believe she can be loyal to both countries. However, if she choose to run for President, Prime Minister or marry royalty she should revoke one passport. Unless she becomes Prime Minister of one country and marries a Prince from another country LOL Here’s hoping :)
This” debating europe ” is becoming more and more ridiculous.
Should citizenship be bought?
It is for sale in the EU- like it or not! If you have enough money, famous, establish a sizable business, create employment or wish to avoid (pay) tax- you CAN. Please apply at the relevant embassy or meet Mr EU (Luxembourg) JCJ in the bar after hrs.
@Josephine Cassar
No, but quite a few poor EU nations sell national passports to gain EU access.
Simple: if both countries goes to war against each other to which draft should person go if he is loyal to both countries?
A 70 year effort to marry past enemies in NATO & the political EU has exported wars to different continents! Instigated & lead by US global ambition, meddling & regime change desires.
JCJ & elites aspire to establish an EU “mercenary army”, abolish national parliaments & “national” passports- to eliminate a possible future “rebellion” against the almighty EU. And everyone lived happily ever after in the newly transformed EU.
A person in my family is Japanese. She lived here and then married but does not want to give up her Japanese passport, they do not allow dual nationality. If she gives up her Japanese passport she can be restricted visiting her family. So, she keeps the passport she has up to date. As she is married to my English relative she is allowed an indefinite visa to here. So unless that situation changes she intends to leave it as it is.
She married both here in the UK and in a Japanese traditional ceremony, which was very beautiful.
Everyone should have EU passport and EU citizenship.
No thanks, I `am Dutch, proud of it, The EU only excists in the mind of politicians
Having two passports has nothing to do with anything. You think loyalty or patriotism are contained in the passport?
Common sense at last!
The premise of the opening statement of the page stipulates that the passport is integral to somebody’s sense of national identity. I would have thought they’d have made that statement with evidence to support it.
Never
no
No. Patriotism and nationalism is a cancer, it usually evolves into chauvinism and fascism. Europe must not become that. We do not choose where we are born, be proud of one’s country is plain stupid.
@Raúl Manuel Pérez Álvarez
Your assertion in your 2nd paragraph applies to Latin countries and Germany.
Please don’t tar all EU countries with your tainted country’s brush.
@ Raul. Well said mate! Spot on! Excessive nationalism is based on deep inferiority complex like “hey I am stupid but I proud to be British!” Lool as if it were some sort of achievement.
@Raúl Manuel Pérez Álvarez
Supranationalism is a cancer too!!!
@David, I strongly disagree with both your premise and assumption. Nationalism is integral to the human psyche, we need to belong to a tribe and feel accepted to be happy. Nations are merely bigger tribes. Don’t feel like you belong to one particular part of Europe? Bet you still identify as European then, and wether you’ll admit it or not bet you feel a sense of pride about that. Assuming nationality/nationalism is the sole property of the stupid merely shows your ignorance.
I rather be stupid then to follow a few politicians who think to be better then normal people ( Juncker preventing a photo taken in the EP) .
Call me maybe….
The europeans must be proud on being Europeans.
No
Why is this a question? Certainly should they give up. Either, or. No rotten intermediate solutions.
Well said … “citizenship (is) just an abstract concept, better suited to the outdated nationalism of the 20th Century”. If it has to be done, the sooner an EU passport is introduced the better.
1/2 Greek 1/2 French, should give up one of them ?!
1/2 Greek 1/2 French, should give up one of them ?!
Of course not. Being made to abandon something that has made you the unique individual that you are is facist. Never let anyone force you to alter who you are.
I want a european passport
una persona saggia ha detto : “prima ancora di avere diritto di muoversi in altri Paesi , va affermato il diritto di rimanere nel proprio Paese ” mi piace .
il Grifone Polémico speak for your self !!! I have 2 passports and I am as proud of one as much as the other !!!!
After so many years of Shengen agreement, yes.
First a common currency: euro. Then a common passport. And then a neutral and laboratory made universal language.
Patriotism is more or less just a joke in the EU . The only time I find out someone is patriotic when they try to win elections , cover money laundering and similar . Patriots are for the most gangsters , nationalists , church and similar kind .
Yes, Vinko, nationalism wins votes / sympathy because it tells people they can be proud of themselves simply based on their nationality and that they deserve to be treated in a certain way without having to work towards it just because they were born somewhere. Who wouldn’t like that status of irrevocable supremacy?! Nigel Farage, Marie Le Pen, Donald Trump and the like are laying the foundations for a very right Europe. Sure they are trying to disguise it, like all nationalists before them did, talking about new order, instilling fear against neighbours and institutions and looking to blame non nationals for threatening values
@ the confused:
seriously, on whom is this joke? The down beaten, the spiritless, the corrupt ex COMECON’s- the used to the past & afraid of the future & underachievers? Suffering from what? Shame!
So much confusion surrounds PATRIOTISM in the newly super or “supra-nationalistic” suffering political EU!
“The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war.”
Easier to watch a “happier” world here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St4eXEI4KMQ
Or one of many more here:
https://www.tailribbons.com/blogs/news/12766957-top-25-most-patriotic-countries
PS: Please TRY catch up & cheer up!
You can call it whatever you want: nationalism or patriotism. I couldn’t care less what it is called. For me it is all the same. Borders are invented by people against people. I am not CONFUSED at all! Nature has no borders though and while we are discussing things as ridiculous as Brexit other things such as global warming should be higher up on our agenda (just saying). Also I am quite a happy person, no need to cheer up!
@EU Citizen
And what does the “border less” EU do? Nature has no borders? Are egregious scientists “playing God”? Challenging the borders of morality & ethics? Egregious politicians do similar things- messing up our lives, everyone’s future plus nature!
Apart from having natural borders we have national borders and political borders to regulate our existence within our 7 bio compatriots! Ever noticed that the political EU establishes NEW political borders with every new enlargement- by “treaty”?
The ever moving borders & security are a total failure! Shortsighted?
Those who do not agree with the present political madness have a democratic right & duty to challenge or recall those who think to be entitled to play god over us!
@EU citizen, so you would prefer a world without borders? Do I have to point out that such a world comes hand in hand with no governments, police forces or enforceable legal system? Without jurisdictions (a form of border) in which to be able to operate a legal system, people will be able to do anything they want without fear of reprisal (apart from mob justice, but that is very local and easy to avoid by leaving and also easy for the innocent to get punished while the guilty get away with it). Animals may not recognise borders, but they certainly recognise social groups. And many animals also recognise territories that their social group will if need be fight to protect. Thinking of humans as somehow as separate from the animal kingdom as plants are is a dangerous and frankly arrogant misbelief. Intellect may enable us to override our instinctual behaviour under certain circumstances, but it is highly situational even amongst the highly intellectually gifted.
“Debating Europe” is funded by Open Society of Georges Soros.
“Debating Europe” is funded by Open Society of Georges Soros.
In the EU they can no problem. It’s not the antiEuropean frustrated that should thematise such issues.
No they shouldn’t. It is practical to have them. Besides, there are many people whose parents are from 2-3 different countries. Why should they be put in this situation? I don’t think there should be any restrictions on the number of nationalities that a person can have. In the EU an EU passport should be considered as the way forward.
Corrections please:
One has not or cannot apply for “multi nationalities”- only for additional passports/citizen ships being first a NATIONAL from a sovereign country. The EU is not a NATION- but a political “union concept” only. Passport regulations ARE already laid down and remain the competence of each NATIONAL state.
To obtain a citizenship (a national internal political matter) and/or access to a passport- or more- one must first possess a NATIONALITY (a matter of international rights- ~195 NATIONS are UN recognized). We all remain NATIONAL citizens of an EU Member state- but in addition were “crowned” EU citizen by the Brussels political union.
One cannot apply for “multi nationalities”- only for additional passports/citizen ships. Check the regulations with your own relevant NATIONAL department to get clarity.
EU, the overwhelming majority of the population in Europe speaks an Indo-European language, meaning that the different “nations” are descended from one and the same people called the Indo-Europeans for linguistic purposes or Yamna culture by archaeologists. Some of the languages that we have in Europe today have been recognised as languages for political reasons but are actually dialects from a linguistic perspective. In addition, people are very close genetically as well. These nations you are talking about sound like 1940’s rhetoric and are outdated, to be honest with you. People are constantly on the move nowadays, live in one country but work in another one, as my post above mentions, there are those that are half and half etc. I am glad that the EU is here to tackle nationalistic sentiments like yours. I don’t see that they are based on facts. The nation is a bubble and the EU’s burst it now. Obviously, there are those that are not happy about it but you see just because the treatment causes side-effects doesn’t mean you should stop it and let the cancer spread.
Y, why not go all the way & use the “Out of Africa” theory or the “recent single origin hypothesis”? Not 3000 BCE Chalcolithic habits of tribal nomads (“no passports invented than”) as a model for your EU vision?
Languages & all that ancientness has NOTHING to do with present existing legislation surrounding the various NATIONAL and International regulations concerning NATIONALITIES, passports & definitions.
Personal political wishes & dreams should be kept separate from reality, since they will never abolish national laws- as much as anyone may dislike, ignore or try to wish them away.
I said something different, EU, but I can understand why you would want to corrupt it. It is true though we all came out of Africa, we are the same flesh and blood, and conversations about the Nation are outdated and exactly don’t correspond to reality. Obviously, genetics should not be confused with social organisation and progress, but I can understand why you would want to do this for the purposes of your post…you can’t win the exchange otherwise.
My father is Swiss my mother is from Trinidad and Tobago, I hold both Citizenships on paper and in my blood, I have lived in both countries and cultures, there is absolutely no confliflict of Loyalty for me, thankfully these two countries are geographicaly far enough away from eachother that this question never arises, maybe such conflicts can arise for citizens of neighbouring countries or maybe for citizens of islamic countries who may have a divided loyalty because of the islamic culture and its adversarial history toward Western Christian Countries, and certainly countries at war may pose a predicament for any dual citizen. But for the most part dual citizenship is a wonderful thing that opens doors to a person to travel and see places that they otherwise might not have seen.
Your Yaz was a migrant or had migrant support interests.Of course people should keep their original passports, it will be more politically ok for some to sent the criminals back to their original shithole they came from after un compliance with human civilization. The only people interested in renouncing their original passport are those who think that by these those who “adopt” their criminal activities will be forced not to deport the savages after thefts, rapes and murders as the poor criminals would have no place to return to…
The cost of buying freedom is indeed $2350. This is the huge fee the US charges Americans living abroad who seek to liberate their lives from the hostilities, restrictions and burdens coming from America. No other nation in the world treats its citizens with so much hostility and no other nation in the world charges them so much money to become liberated from such.