le-pen-2

Has the Front National benefited electorally from Brexit? It is, of course, too early to say for certain. If Britain thrives outside the European Union, then it might make a vote for the Front National seem less like a leap into the unknown.

During the Brexit referendum, the UK was often called the “canary in the coal mine” (including by Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party). That’s potentially quite a scary place to be for the canary, but eurosceptics in other countries will be watching what happens carefully.

The recent terror attack in Nice, in which a Tunisian man drove a truck into a crowd and killed 84 people, could also sway some French voters. Europe, security, and immigration are all issues that the Front National puts front-and-centre in its campaign strategy.

We had a comment from Byron, who anyway thought the Front National will “take more than 25% of the vote in the first round of the next presidential election”. Is he right? In fact, the latest polling puts Le Pen at about 28-29% of the vote. So, could Marine Le Pen be President in 2017?

To get a response, we spoke to Dídac Gutiérrez-Peris, Research Director of European Affairs at Institut Viavoice, a French strategy and poll studies consultancy. What would he say to Byron?

guitierrezWell, to Byron, I would say that this would be extremely scary. But an FN victory definitely has to be considered at least a small possibility, because Marine Le Pen definitely has electoral strength in France. When you put together all the different possibilities in the first round of the 2017 French Presidential Election, the polling suggests Marine Le Pen would receive the most votes of all candidates, unless if Alain Marie Juppé is a candidate in the first round.

So, I think that democrats and centrists and people who believe Le Pen is a danger to democracy should mobilise, knowing the danger is clear, at least in this moment. One important thing is to remind people that our polls and surveys are just a photograph of reality at a precise moment, it’s not necessarily what will happen, nor what people think. It’s another tool, among many, to see how public opinion moves or shifts according to different tendencies. But the tendency is an alarming one, and it should send a red signal not only for France, but for all of Europe.

We also had a comment from Klassen, who believes that high unemployment, coupled with efforts to push through controversial labour reforms, are making President Hollande increasingly unelectable. So, is there any chance of him reversing his fortunes ahead of the election?

guitierrezWell, to Klassen, I would say: Yes, it’s very, very, very uncommon to see a French president with a 14% approval rating, and this is what Hollande has been enduring for many months. And it’s quite difficult to win an election when your presidency has hovered between 14% and 20% approval for so long.

At the same time, Hollande was clear from the beginning that one of the basic ways of judging his mandate will be how the economy is performing after his five years in office. And the economy, for the last 3-5 months, has been doing a little better. The question now is: will the economy improve and unemployment fall in a regular way over the next year?

If that happens, I would say Hollande maybe has one last chance. If that doesn’t happen then it’s difficult to imagine, for a pollster like me, someone whose ratings have been in the red for so long becoming president. But, again, we have seen ‘impossible’ things happen before. Polls should be taken with a grain of salt, and a lot of things can change over the next 15 months. The employment rate and the economy in general have been improving slightly. So, we will have to wait and see.

Will Brexit boost Marine Le Pen’s Front National? Or is it too early to say? If Britain thrives outside the European Union, will more countries flock to join it? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!

IMAGE CREDITS: CC / Flickr – Blandine Le Cain


211 comments Post a commentcomment

What do YOU think?

  1. avatar
    Sebastien Chopin

    Today’s news….; “The pound is diving against the dollar, euro, and yen on Tuesday after the International Monetary Fund (IMF) said Britain’s decision to leave the European Union had thrown “a spanner in the works” for its economy….” However anti EU you may be… this sorted that issue out in seconds for everyone… and people want to afford going on holiday and look after their own interests first… before being national… and before being… not soveriegn lol

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      Sebastien, is Economics 101- too much for you? Foreign buyers take advantage of a favorable exchange rate in a stable country!

      The UK economy has gained a competitive advantage- time being- by having a more favorable exchange rate and improved flexibility on the global market through Brexit.

      Holiday savings of a few pounds is only important for some folks. However, even there are OPTIONS!

      It is the whole economy & foremost companies- not the EU or ECB- who make a country prosperous (or poorer). Governments are only “milking” all working cows, redistribute the milk, while enjoying a secure & high life.
      https://hbr.org/1990/03/the-competitive-advantage-of-nations

    • avatar
      SD

      Democracy and Freedom have a price, the British have decided to pay that price as have we Swiss, Icelandics, Norwegians etc., the EU is a dangerous project, MARK MY WORDS soon the EU will have a Army and that Army will fight wars, maybe not in Germany and France but certainly in far away countries like Iran etc. in support of their US ally, I have read their papers online and they talk about having a Army to protect trade routes, I am a realist, they mean war. It will happen and then people like you will wake up.

    • avatar
      Positive EU/Brit

      Yes, SD there will be wars and UK just voted to pick side nothing else. I expect that the UK will side with Donald Trump if he wins …

  2. avatar
    Paul X

    Maybe a little….. but certainly no where near as much as further terrorist atrocities by immigrants will do. France is physically suffering more than the UK ever has due to naive EU principals and what’s the EU’s response?…nothing…. except banging on about how free movement will never be withdrawn. The EU has no one else to blame but itself for the rise of the right wing throughout Europe

    • avatar
      Paula

      Ok so how is Marie Le Pen going to solve the problem with terrorism. Most of the terrorists are home grown so border control is not going to help with that. Not to mention that the fallout of the EU will be a painful slow process where everybody will try to get the “Best deal”. That will be a haven for terrorism!

    • avatar
      Paul X

      She wont but that is not the point. Free movement is seen as making it easy for terrorists to enter the EU and move around and therefore many people will support any party that advocates it

      To be honest the solution is in the hands of the EU, just repeal the right to free movement and stop claiming it is some totally untouchable cornerstone of the EU and must be part of the free market ( according to the treaty of Rome it should only be for workers anyway)

      Re-introduce border controls and you remove one of the main attractions of far right propaganda

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      The failure of the French police to stick with basic security measures should not be understated.

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      It would cost millions to re-introduce border controls, as business would slow down. But besides it would take that little bit of something away from the people at the bottom and support for the EU could drop as a result. Besides, most places do check passports. They just don’t demand visas.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      “Besides, most places do check passports. They just don’t demand visas”
      Yasmine, do stop making things up, when was the last time you traveled across the EU in a train or car? I do quite often and once I’m outside the UK my passport never leaves my bag
      A lot of people show passports at airports for internal EU flights but this is only as a form of photo ID, they could just as easy use another ID card or driving licence

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      Yes, I had my passport checked on the coach between Greece and Bulgaria, when going to Turkey by coach as well. They checked passports on the ferry boat to Italy from Greece. In Germany they used to stop people randomly in the street and ask for passports etc.

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      They also check passports on the Eurostar…twice…once the British border police and then the French…But they don’t check between Scotland and England, nor Northern Ireland and England and Northern Ireland was the number 1 place for terrorism in 2015. So what is your suggestion? How can England protect itself better? Let Northern Ireland go?

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36845647

  3. avatar
    Paula

    Why do you want people to vote Le Pen?

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Paul X:

      Unless the French have lost their minds and want to be on the end of bomb threats growing by the day, they will choose Le Pen. However, even if she is in charge, will she really do anything about it? Can she do anything about it as they are still inside EU control? They want all the people of European States to sacrifice their lives and civilisation to prove an impossible point.

      Anyway, no go areas in France have been around for forty years or more. My mother went to Paris with her friends when she was very young. They ended up taking a wrong turn when looking for the Moulin Rouge. They found themselves in the Arab quarter, mostly Algerians then, and they were scared stiff. Men made threats, put up their fists and banged on their car bonnet. Even though there was two guys with them, they were very afraid. And the loud Arabic music did not appear to calm their souls one bit.

      However, on the political front, all of their Presidents have allowed this situation to continue and grow worse for decades, one after the other. It is now insane in that most beautiful of countries, unless you stay in the rural areas that is.

      Tourists will soon catch on to just how bad it is to drive from Dieppe to anywhere, as the bandits are out to rob you every inch of the way. Sad, but truthful. Le Pen is their only hope. But will they pay attention? I hope so.

      The politically correct indoctrination of the EU is so widespread most European countries are willing to pretend it isn’t happening. That is, unless you go and knock on their doors and ask them directly.

      Like, Sweden, they are willing to let the horror of rape, killing and abuse continue as to admit the truth is something they are afraid of doing. Afraid of being threatened by their own governments.

      Just as we are in the UK

    • avatar
      Paula

      @Paul X. Spot on the EU can introduce border control which will check who is coming in and out of the country. What do we do with the home grown terrorists though. Also I feel like the UK and France are attracting terrorists for reasons that have nothing to do with the EU. It is linked to foreign policy etc.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      I agree 100% Catherine and to be honest your reply also helps answer Paula’s question about home grown terrorism.
      Paula, border controls wont solve home grown terrorism but it will help contain it. As Catherine says there are areas in European cities that are hot beds of radical Islamists and currently there is nothing stopping them from setting out and killing people anywhere in Europe (e.g.the Paris murderers who came from Belgium)
      It may be a selfish attitude but it is well know that France and Belgium have breeding grounds for terrorists and the EU should be doing what it can to stop these idiots freely spreading terror throughout the continent

  4. avatar
    Ivan Burrows

    .

    Of course it will, the process of EU disintegration is now unstoppable.

    vive la liberté !

    • avatar
      Paula

      Why do you care? UK wants to be on its let be it! I just don’t get why there are people that want full EU disintegration?

    • avatar
      Paula

      Why do you care? UK wants to be on its own that’s fine! I just don’t get why there are people that want full EU disintegration?

    • avatar
      Martin Unterholzner

      @Paula because it is all about emotions. The British vote was also a vote against the establishment. This anti-establishment attitude is not limited to Europe, however. Brexit has the same causes as the success of Donald Trump. Globalization produced a few winners and many losers. The latter are fed up and blame the politicians.
      More than ever, Europe is becoming a question about emotions, about identity.

    • avatar
      George

      Because the brits are anti Europeans , they have always been, they fostered an foster in their public life openly anti European propaganda. They are narcissists and hostile. The millions of Indians and Arabs never bothered them.

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      George, they did but the they don’t feel free to admit it because skin colour puts everything into a different perspective.

    • avatar
      Duncan

      @George, anti-European? I’m British, I’m a believer in Brexit and I’m very much pro European! What’s more, my father who served in Germany in the 50’s to protect Europe from hostile takeover by the Soviet Union was pro Europe. My nephew sat at the side of me is pro Europe. The thousands of British soldiers who went to Europe to fight alongside our European allies, and the governments who sent them. I suppose they did this out of a hatred for Europe? Anti-EU is a far cry from anti-Europe!

    • avatar
      Paul X

      @ Duncan, your big mistake is talking common sense.

      Unfortunately in EU (la la) land you either attend pro-EU sponsored rallies, wave a blue starred flag and hum some second rate Beethoven tune….. or else you are a racist, xenophobic, bigot

      An EU directive is currently being drafted to make it illegal to be anything in between

    • avatar
      David

      OK, Duncan, you are entitled to your opinion but why do you want EU desintegration. Isnt it enough that the UK is out of the EU and you will be soon able to freely trade with the world as your brexit minister said there is a market out there 10 times the EU. I suspect he is including indigenous people and even Martians! I think that it will be fair that most of the European business moves to the EU and the UK can prosper as a trully international leader. I dont think it needs any ties with the EU.. there is a market ten times bigger. I dont even know why Theresa May bother going to France and Germany. Just trigger article 50 and enjoy cheap pound that will boost exports :)

  5. avatar
    Sebastien Chopin

    EU exits or rash thoughtless hopes for exit were ended by the brexit lies and global financial disaster which make 2008 and the previous crisis look like child play…

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      Sebastien, you’re irrational, baseless and alarmist financial conclusions only advertise your lack of knowledge & logic. Please, make an effort to inform yourself THOROUGHLY before sprouting above average nonsense here!

      The FTSE recovered within a week, the DOW is making an all time new high.
      Take your time and analyze the financial charts- before embarrassing yourself with publishing your THOUGHTLESS garbage again!

      http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Aai0013

    • avatar
      George

      Listen Proactive it did not even started yet. The already unbelievably poor African level infrastructure and government services and the debt and low productivity as a base line will be compounded by the slowly mounting detrimental effects. It will be a slow slide and long lasting, a civilizational degradation.

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      Hi George- i concur with your FUTURE prediction. But a “present” global financial disaster never happened due to Brexit. Just a blip on the charts.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      “It will be a slow slide and long lasting, a civilizational degradation”

      What, are we going to see the return of the dinosaurs just because the UK leaves the EU?

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      HA HA HA, The dinosaurs are on this debate! They HAVE returned!

  6. avatar
    Mark Stradamus

    Nope, Nice’s tragedy did. Now it’s 90% sure that she will rank among the top3 at 1st tour and lose against UMP or PS, recycling the 2002 scenario. What would be interesting to watch is by how she will lose the elections, a big portion or a small margin of voters? 2002 got 80-20 for Chirac, I fear that the results will be much closer this time. Not only did the politics (and the people) fail to progress on some debates since 2002, they made it worse.
    Given that, 2017-2022 will really be a pain if there is no “real elections” and by 2022, shit will hit the fan so hard.

  7. avatar
    Mark Stradamus

    Nope, Nice’s tragedy did. Now it’s 90% sure that she will rank among the top3 at 1st tour and lose against UMP or PS, recycling the 2002 scenario. What would be interesting to watch is by how she will lose the elections, a big portion or a small margin of voters? 2002 got 80-20 for Chirac, I fear that the results will be much closer this time. Not only did the politics (and the people) fail to progress on some debates since 2002, they made it worse.
    Given that, 2017-2022 will really be a pain if there is no “real elections” and by 2022, shit will hit the fan so hard.

  8. avatar
    Stefania Portici

    sono anni che le politiche nazionali vengono manomesse dall’esterno e hanno fatto salire al governo non il fiore del popolo . Spero che la Francia come negli altri Paesi nascano e possano trovare forza classi dirigenti , politici degni di fare gli interessi dei popoli e possano trovare accordi per far cessare questa UE che non piace a nessuno.

  9. avatar
    Stefania Portici

    sono anni che le politiche nazionali vengono manomesse dall’esterno e hanno fatto salire al governo non il fiore del popolo . Spero che la Francia come negli altri Paesi nascano e possano trovare forza classi dirigenti , politici degni di fare gli interessi dei popoli e possano trovare accordi per far cessare questa UE che non piace a nessuno.

  10. avatar
    mr-ede

    It depends on how the EU reacts. I think, the ideas presented in the afco-committee last week are really not the right answers. Instead I would suggest a European Federation inside the EU.

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      Mister-Ede, may I point out that your proposal requires an EU treaty change as per Article 48 of the Treaty on European Union- not by pleading through a (DE) “forum”. Wrong channel!

      The DE’s “democratic” invitation to submit ideas of improvements is therefore disingenuous.

      http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Aai0013

    • avatar
      mr-ede

      The first step would be to debate the idea of an European Federation and the advantages and disadvantages of such an inner circle of EU-Members.

      And I suppose, a real dialogue about the future of the EU could help to win back people for the European Idea.

  11. avatar
    Massimo Ortale

    I think that more than Brexit the factors that are going to influence the political results are the economic situation and the sense of worrying towards the immigrants; following the recent terrorist attacks in France. It is almost certain however that Fronte National Will have a good result due to the recent attacks.

  12. avatar
    Gyorgy

    Le Pen is not anti European. European so called “right wingers” are not anti Europeans. They are more like anti political correctness parties.

  13. avatar
    Jérémy Inxi

    no, most of French ppl still want to stay in the EU and know what she thinks is retarted to be polite

  14. avatar
    Martin Unterholzner

    Only if the EU does not learn from it.

  15. avatar
    ironworker

    Brexit along with Marine Le Pen it’s the least of the problems. Hollande has become a liability and a direct threat to the French citizens. At this pace of terrorist attacks and with a lack of firm response and ambiguity from the politicians and authorities I doubt France, as an EU founder, can hold it together till 2017.

    • avatar
      ironworker

      P.S. …and 3 days later, Bam ! Munich. That’s a game changer, everything I wrote about Hollande it applies to Merkel as well.

  16. avatar
    Andrej Němec

    Brexit is a disaster for the UK, that will ultimately disintegrate like Jugoslavija did in the ’90s.. France won’t follow the same pattern, the French are to intelligent.

  17. avatar
    Andrej Němec

    Brexit is a disaster for the UK, that will ultimately disintegrate like Jugoslavija did in the ’90s.. France won’t follow the same pattern, the French are to intelligent.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Andrej Němec
      Oh dear, another soothsayer throwing down chicken bones and reading tea-leaves.

      The UK is centuries older than the unstable EU, nonetheless, I see both surviving into the future.

      The UK, will be an agile, positive country trading with the RoW and the EU will be a cross between a ‘Banana Federation’ and a ‘Brussels Reich’.

      As for Yugoslavia – it was bound to fail, it was a mish-mash of inherently unstable countries with histories of violence and corruption held together by fascism.

      As for France being ‘clever’, I have to agree but I would also add France is prone to corruption and instability and France’s team-up with Italy and Spain to counter the German-dominated EU will only end up in tears for all concerned.

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      Andrej, agreed!

  18. avatar
    Kyra Pollacco

    It’s not Brexit that will increase Marine’s popularity, it’s the EU itself and it’s lack of action towards migration. It’s every terrorist attack and foreign criminals in France that give Marine an advantage.

  19. avatar
    Paul X

    Yes, spot on….
    pop·u·lism (pŏp′yə-lĭz′əm)
    A political philosophy supporting the rights and power of the people in their struggle against the privileged elite.

    ..and the UK has actually given the “people” a chance to speak and don’t the EU “privileged elite” just hate it…

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      No they don’t. They just can’t wait to see the back of the populus so that London business goes to them and they are permanently rid of chronic moaning.

  20. avatar
    Danny Boy

    Brexit won’t effect next years election,Le Pen will probably split the right wing vote allowing whoever the socialists pick instead of the useless Hollande to win.
    There will then follow five more years of continued political and economic decline,numerous terrorist attacks,thousands more migrants roaming the country and a growing campaign to quit the Euro.Then in 2022 Le Pen will lead the reformed Republican party to victory

  21. avatar
    Yasmine

    Post-Brexit polling in countries where support for the EU was marginal has shown that this has now grown. If Le Pen wins more at the elections it will have very little to do with Brexit.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Yasmine
      Your 1st sentence is bizarre!

    • avatar
      Paul X

      As are most that precede it and no doubt the many that will follow….

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      I am sure that facts sound very bizarre to you, as you cannot spin or demean their meaning…better leave it. Just call a few names and avoid commenting on the substance. It’s a good policy.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yasmine, I’m sorry but I fail to see what your evidence is supposed to support?

      There is no pre and post Brexit comparison of anything, the whole survey was done after the UK referendum?……..there are some interesting points though

      A majority in all countries surveyed thought there will be more EU referendums due to Brexit

      A majority in all countries except Finland think more countries will leave the EU due to Brexit

      Given a referendum 70% of Norwegians would vote to leave the EU…. ..this must surely put doubts on the quality of people they chose to survey….lol

      Most interesting is the fact that this survey include some of the more supposedly europhile countries…. just imagine how embarrassing the results would be if they had chosen to include the Greeks, the Spanish or the Dutch

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      An interesting way of twisting and misrepresenting the poll, Paul. I am now gradually coming to the conclusion that you are a professional politician. However, for those interested in facts, rather than opinions, the results of the intended vote of actual member states, as opposed to associate ones, are there to read, as per my initial post!

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yasmine I think you will find it is very difficult to twist anything in that poll, the data is very clear to anyone with basic reading and maths skills

      For example: Question
      “If there was a referendum on [COUNTRY] membership of the
      European Union, how would you vote?”
      The response from France was that 44% would vote to remain……now just where is the evidence in this survey that before Brexit this pecentage was lower?…… which is what you re claiming in your initial post and are trying to justify with this poll?

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      Yes, sorry, I can’t be bothered to look for the previous one, however, my information is from an extremely credible source to the extent that I don’t really need to double-check. However, yourself feel free to and I stand by my initial post and answer with regards to the debate’s question.

      Btw, conveniently omitted by you, 11% is the difference for the remain option in France. :-)

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yasmine, I have no doubt the source is extremely credible, but the data contained within does not validate your claim therefore it is meaningless post to a pointless link……. please refrain as there is already enough chaff to wade through on these forums ;-)

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      Paul, you have exactly failed to prove that it is pointless…

    • avatar
      Paul X

      It’s pointlessness needs no proof, it is clearly obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      A good way to hide a failure. Only that even the argument for this has not been proven….

  22. avatar
    Maia Alexandrova

    Brexit has not happened yet and no one knows how it will happen. So it is unlikely that something so hypothetical will influence reality in the way the question here suggests. What if the Brexit process turns nasty? I don’t think it will boost anyone. At the moment it is too early to judge because we don’t know what Brexit actually means in reality. Right now it is nothing more than empty talk about some la-la land…

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Brexit will become nasty and this will be as much between EU member states as it will be between the EU and UK

      There is a direct conflict of interest between for example Germany who will want to safeguard the 34% of their total EU exports that go to the UK and other countries who rely on EU hand outs who will be upset that these may be reduced by the loss of the UK’s net contribution. The biggest problems for the UK will come from those who contribute least but ho will make the most noise

    • avatar
      Positive EU/Brit

      Hi Paul X, there is some bad news for your since Germany can still trade with the UK. It will have to be through the WTO agreement ( which is isnt that bad as UKIP highlighted on few occasions) . What is more the UK purchase power has dropped as a result of the weakened pound. Finally, Germany can benefit from businesses moving to Berlin and Frankfurt. Sweet deal indeed! Other comuntries are also eyeing UK businesses. I am telling you that first hand. A lot people outside the EU can’t wait for the UK to leave (but entirely no free movement or access to the single market) so that they can take a share of what the UK has/had. Tech companies, banking, patent offices, European medicines agency, great research, top universities and so much more can just move together with the millions of skilled EU and I am sure some of the UK talent too! Whatever you say the whole of EU is a bigger economy than little England & Wales!

    • avatar
      Positive EU/Brit

      I meant: lot people outside the UK can’t wait for the UK to leave (but entirely no free movement or access to the single market) so that they can take a share of what the UK has/had

    • avatar
      Paul X

      To be honest I’m getting fed up hearing about Free trade and Free movement being used in the same sentence. The whole concept that you cannot have trade without free movement is an ideaology dreamed up by the EU and one which is a dismal failure which they still refuse to accept.
      There is no physical reason on earth why the UK could not have free trade with the EU without accepting free movement but this will mean the EU backing down, admitting failure, and saying “we got it wrong” and unfortunately that is a phrase completely alien to that bunch of superior elitist who reside in Brussels

    • avatar
      Paula

      @ Paul X

      Why should they do that? If I were them I wouldn’t. We will have access but not free access, that’s all. I can live with that can you not?
      What you are saying is true, it is possible to have free access without free movement. Nobody argues with that. As a matter of fact I think they can even pay us lool but I don’t think they are that stupid and I don’t think it is going to happen. It doesn’t make sense you see. Why would they let Britain leave the EU and then be a gate for imports into the EU? Would you agree to such deal. Please put yourself in their shoes and tell me wholeheartedly you would!

    • avatar
      Yasmine

      Well, actually, it is not possible, because it is against EU rules and values, and it is not up to the UK to decide those…Ha! If they are going to run their business from here obviously they will also want to bring some of their own people in and have the change to employ the people that they need, which the UK cannot necessarily provide. So, my guess is that no free movement of work force would be a deal breaker for the EU. It would effectively affect their business.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Paula, yes I agree that the EU has no reason to back down regarding free movement, but the real issue is why they still insist on it being a fundamental principle when all it brings is problems? The very fact they say the UK cannot have the benefit of free trade without accepting free movement means they acknowledge that free movement is a bad concept and if the UK wants the good they have to accept the bad. They clearly know it is a flawed ideaology yet still arrogantly refuse to change it, that is the real problem

    • avatar
      Paula

      Hi Paul X. I think we have to go back to why the EU was created in the first place to understand the principles it was based on. At the beginning the EU leaders thought that peace in Europe is only possible through political and economical union (at least that is the mainstream story). Now many things have happened since, on one hand people think EU countries will never go to war against each other and on the other there is the rise of terrorism which everybody thinks will be better tackled if borders are reinstated (I don’t necessarily agree with either of these statements). Also countries from the Eastern bloc joined the EU; they were a lost less economically developed, and on top of that the crisis hit some of the developed countries in 2008. All that leading to higher migration levels to the UK. Unfortunately neither the EU nor individual member states were quick enough to react to the change in sentiment and real circumstances. What we are left with is a complicated situation that in my opinion needs an equally complicated solution. I don’t think it is just a matter of stopping free movement of people. Changing the way it works may be but it is never that easy is it! If the EU was to created to protect UK interests then yes, they can let UK citizens travel freely, allow only skilled labour in the UK (brain drain for the rest of Europe I have to say) and let the UK freely import and trade with Europe including passporting rights and all that for free. However, we would be VERY naive to believe that e EU will or must change JUST to make it all better JUST for Britain.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Hi Paula, agreed and if we do go back to the founding of the EU the actual text of the Treaty of Rome was to allow free movement of People in doing their job or to take up an offer of work. Now that by it’s nature means you need some form of control to ensure people who are moving across borders actually have proof of employment. Since then the EU has diluted this by hiding amendments in subsequent treaties and now anybody can cross borders unchecked for whatever reason they want (good or bad) yet the EU has the audacity to still claim this freedom of movement is a founding principle…I mean just why should we trust people who work in such an underhand way and so blatently lie through their teeth?

  23. avatar
    Kevin

    Please inform me…….
    If immigrants want to come to Britain because of it’s benefit system which is apparently more attractive than other EU countries (and therefore by being different from other EU countries, must be controlled from Westminster) why don’t we change it SIGNIFICANTLY to make our system less attractive to those wishing to come and live there? I believe it was said by ‘France’ that the immigrant camps along the Northern France Coastline are the fault of Britain ‘because immigrants know the British benefits will afford them a much better life. Au contraire…..The French should not blame this problem on Britain…..after all who was it that let the masses cross into their country to get to the coast? The French border (non) control of course!!!
    Why is it we can determine and control our own (soft touch) social system yet we have been dictated to by European Parliament on issues that are NOT the business of other countries. As far as I can remember, the EU was born to enable trading to become less arduous, it was NOT developed for job sharing or other national treasure sharing,nor to create borderless countries or a Federal Europe.
    There is an adequately developed system for tourist border crossing called ‘Schengen’. This too is far from perfect and has it’s own domestic requirements..eg. A sponsor for a non EU visitor to Spain….must be sibling, child or parent whereas for France, a friend can be a sponsor. Vive la difference!!!.
    Laws, charters, policies, call them what you will, should be the business of the countries themselves and not some unelected parliamentary body. Is this really democracy? I think it’s dictatorship!

    • avatar
      Paul X

      I would suggest that the immigrants at Calais are 100% the fault of the EU, without the naive free movement policy they would not even have got into France. What is really pathetic is the fact the EU still persists in trumpeting that free movement is a non negotiable part of membership which just demonstrates how little they actually care for the people of Europe and are happy to inflict untold misery in the name of their own ambitions

      Regards UK benefits if we dumb them down to the lowest common EU denominator then no-one in the UK will be able to survive. Plus they are only generous because the taxpayers in the UK pay a lot in. The best way to change it significantly is for benefits to be paid to people based on what they would receive in their country of nationality, irrespective of where they chose to live in the EU

    • avatar
      Paula

      Kevin, which immigrants are you talking about? If you are referring to the ones fleeing Syria, Afghanistan etc. then what we need is a better border control of the EU (or Europe as a whole). If you think about it the border of the EU is shorter than the border of all individual countries ;) Also the refugees are a shared responsibility. We can leave the EU but we will need very powerful propellers to move the entire island away from Europe. Not to mention that France and the UK have been heavily involved in the Middle East conflicts. What I am saying is that the refugee crisis can only be tackled through cooperation regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU.

  24. avatar
    Paula

    @Paul X. Where would they go if they don’t reach France? They are not going to disappear?

    • avatar
      Paul X

      @Paula, they wouldn’t get out of the first safe country they arrive in. I appreciate that is harsh on whatever country that happens to be but allowing them to spread unchecked throughout Europe isn’t helping the problem at all, It’s the childish attitude of “were having to suffer because of this then so will the rest of you”
      What should be happening is all the effort the EU is wasting trying to spread the misery evenly throughout Europe should be directed at helping these people in their own countries, only then we may see a bit of improvement

  25. avatar
    Kevin

    @Paul. ‘Dumbing down’ benefits would aimed at immigrants on arrival with only sustenance support (from places such as Syria). At least their lives would not be in danger. The generous tax payers could still fund it’s own people and assist lesser fortunate. For EU citizens from outside the UK the idea of giving them the benefits they would receive in their own country is quite a reasonable suggestion providing it was reciprocal throughout other EU member states.Perhaps the member states should make the benefit payments to their own citizens at the ‘local’ rate. Can you imagine how much better off a UK citizen would be if he/she was on max. benefits and living in a cheaper country? There is a scheme a little like this applied to immigration into the UK…..it goes like this. A UK citizen inviting his non EU wife to come and live with him must pay an application fee to UKBA of 1100+GBP. A Polish citizen for example, (no discrimination meant) living in the UK (which as an EU citizen is entitled to do) inviting his wife from a peaceful non EU country pays…..the fee it would be in Poland -ZERO!!!!! Now why should that be?
    The EU is a mess. Some things follow a pattern whilst other things appear to have no justification.
    What I must ask all you people that subscribe to taking immigrants into the UK, for whatever reason is this, when is it going to stop? How many will be too many? Give me an actual figure. Please don’t pussy foot around – HOW MANY? UK has a population of 70M probably more, our infrastructure will burst if the flow isn’t stemmed. Why not lobby non EU countries like Brazil, Russia, China who have vast land masses to open their borders more liberally?
    The answer perhaps is they don’t observe p.c.and would tell you where to go. France has a land mass twice the size of UK and a population of 66m (2014 census) should migration numbers be proportional to the land mass or is it? Australia has only 29M and is a vast country albeit some areas may be uninhabitable. I have not researched in depth any of the latter points raised so may not be completely well informed. Please don’t shoot me. Let’s debate and learn together!

    • avatar
      Paul X

      “Can you imagine how much better off a UK citizen would be if he/she was on max. benefits and living in a cheaper country?”

      Kevin, that is exactly why I think it is a good idea, it would relieve the pressure on social housing etc in the UK and also generate much needed income for the country they choose to move to, it will also dissuade economic migration to richer countries … so as far as I’m concerned it would be a win win situation all round

  26. avatar
    George

    We need a common external border so that migration policies can be practically implemented. Half of the refugees are not war refugees so they shouldn’t be allowed in. The present lawlessness is not tennable.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Paul X

      Oh, yes, but our government will not allow the indigenous UK citizen to claim their full or even half benefits if they want to live in the EU countries you mention. The disabled lose most of their benefit if they live outside of the UK, they lose all kind of benefit, housing benefit, council tax, sever disabilty allowance and so on. No more free dentistry, or, health cover, no more eye tests and glasses, I could go on and on.

      Then there are those who are out of work, and those lined up at food banks for the starving. They get little or nothing, But you want the UK to feed the world full of nothing but hateful killers who want to bomb us out of existence because we don’t want to be covered from head to toe. Or, be subservient to their abuse.

      What you are proposing would mean every tax payer turning their back on work and paying taxes. Just walking out of their jobs and refusing to lift a finger to support a cheap nasty bunch of scam artists of the kind we have in our Parliament today. They should all be facing some kind of waterboarding the type Tony Blair and Jack Straw condoned. Whilst turning their backs on our severely wounded soldiers.

      What is wrong with the British, all we ever see is begging adverts for the world to be fed and looked after, whilst their own can be left in a cardboard box on the street.

      We, as a nation, have been driven mad. We sit back and watch the destruction of our society right in front of our eyes, and leave those responsible for the demise, the politicians and their advisers to dance happily away with their back pockets filled with our cash.

      Look at this mornings papers, Cameron wanting to full our Lords with his mates, Lagarde fiddling millions for her mates, and Merkel still in office after turning the German people into target practice for maniac immigrants. Add to that, the new crony we have for leader telling all of us she will quite easily push the nuclear button if she felt it was in her best interests. Thereby murdering all the children she cannot be a mother to.

      As the saying goes, ‘those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad.’

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dRuPPSKNhE

      And

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alld4Og2sTE

      How he underestimated the foolishness and treachery of the politicians he despised in his lifetime.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Catherine, that isn’t quite how I see it. At the end of the day we are paying benefits to the unemployed in this country anyway so what is the problem if they want to move to another country on the same benefits?,relieving pressure on our infrastructure must be a good thing so anyone moving out of the UK will be a bonus as far as housing, health, transport congestion etc goes.

      And I don’t think it is attractive enough to make people quit their jobs for a life on benefit in another country anymore than those who cry for a UBI think everyone will quit work

  27. avatar
    Paula

    Kevin, we already voted Brexit so leave the Polish alone ;)

    I get it, levels of migration are high and the UK economy is not doing well (at least not for the ordinary people which in my opinion is the case in the whole of Europe, not just the EU) ! However, my question still stays how are you going to make other countries take the millions of refugees? Is it going to be Italy, Bulgaria and Greece who take them? I don’t think so. If we close our borders they will close theirs and no economic or other argument will work (the way it didn’t work in the UK).
    I am debating, no intent of getting into a heated argument! Since the referendum, it seems that people are just shouting “Immigration” with no real plan. I agree Brexit will reduce EU migration to the UK BUT there are other ppl desperate to flee war zones /hunger and if we don’t side/unite with other countries to eradicate terror and poverty these people will eventually reach Britain. There is no border, that can stop millions of hopeless people!

    Let’s hope Turkey is not engulfed in a civil war over the next few months; then the 330 000 net migration may seem like a distant dream!

    Back to your question “When do we say enough”. I think we did that already, we said “Enough” but what I am saying is that it may not be up to us. My strong belief is that in or out of the EU, we have to be united against terror not just to help other people but to save ourselves! I feel blessed to have been able to grow and study in London but not everybody is that fortunate and if we turn our backs to a plea for help it will turn to a wave of aggression. Yes, let’s say enough… enough to terror….poverty… inequality!

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Paula
      However, my question still stays how are you going to make other countries take the millions of refugees?

      Please direct that question at the EU-27.

    • avatar
      Kevin

      @Paula. Dear Paula , if you note I said ‘no discrimination meant’. I used the Polish guy’s situation as an example because I have a friend (in fact I have many Polish friends) who bought his wife into the UK from a non EU country with no visa fee whereas for a British Citizen, to bring his wife,from the same country as the Polish man’s wife, had to pay more than 1000GBP for her first settlement visa and a lot more for subsequent visas. If there is any discrimination it seems to be AGAINST the British people living in their own country.

  28. avatar
    catherine benning

    There should be a method of taking all the leaders of our countries that brought this crime against its citizens to be jailed for deceit to overthrown their countries democracy and civilisation by allowing an invasion of criminals and terrorists knowing the horror it would bring to the people.

    The deliberate cover up of rape, crime and physical abuse as well as murder by immigrant communities has to be against each and every citizens human rights.

    Also, for a leader to tell its country that it will press the nuclear button in the future should they feel it should be done, is also a crime against humanity. Had Putin, Trump, Turkey’s leader or Iran’s leader made such a comment they would be calling for war crime threats against those people immediately.

    • avatar
      Duncan

      Omg, I really don’t get why Teresa May is getting heat for this! She wasn’t asked if she’d want to push the button, she wasn’t asked if she was looking forward to the day she’d get the slightest excuse to push the button, she wasn’t asked if she’d sing as she ‘watched Rome burn’. She was asked, as the head of government of a nuclear state who are part of a nuclear alliance if she WOULD BE WILLING to press the button. If her answer had been no then 1) she should never have run for the job and 2) she would have effectively invited any and all foreign powers who have nuclear arms and might see the removal of the UK and/or the allies our weapons defend as beneficial to their own interests to ‘have at it’.

  29. avatar
    Steve P

    Yes us leaving the EU will act as a beacon of light for Leave Penn and the French people

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Duncan:

      What you have written is naive and as with most of our politicians, unfortunately, you have no understanding of the situation you are discussing. You have been brainwashed by fools.

      May knows and knew when she spoke she was not being honest. Why was that? First, she would have to be the first to push the button and cannot do that without permission from our overseers, the USA. In other words she would have to have been granted leave to do this. And to be the first to take this step is a crime against humanity.

      Secondly, if she was to do it only after it had been pushed elsewhere first, what good would that be? Lets say the so called naughty boy, anti Globalist, Putin, was to make such a move, he being no fool, would make that very doubtful indeed, he is not Netanyahu. Nevertheless, if he did, he would send nuclear weapons to each city in and across Europe and elsewhere at the same time. Each one headed for London, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Paris, Lyon, Lille, Berlin, Cologne, Strasboug, Vienna, Rome and on and on. Trident cannot intercept. So May’s ambition to be master of the death, would fail to save the UK and Europe if she took such a step.

      However, to have a thought to do what she declared she would do, is intent to strike and massacre the human race. That thought alone is a crime against humanity. And, to be asked in the House of Commons, where no person is deemed to lie, indicates she meant exactly what she said. And she said it without any kind of question as to what circumstances would allow her to contemplate such a gross act. Therefore, she was saying she would simply, under her will, do such a crime. That is a statement that should land her in the Hague.

      The message, was sent to those countries who already have this weapon. Israel, India, Russia, USA and possibly North Korea.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17511816

      What poor judgement and how sinister from a woman who has no children. So totally unable to have any understanding for mothers of the world.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhIBksIt0GU

  30. avatar
    Kevin

    Interesting. Not one reply about how many immigrants will be enough? I said don’t pussy foot around and now all I can ask is ‘cat bit your tongue’?
    The idea of paying benefits at the citizenship rate has one major drawback,it means that cash will not be re-injected into the country from which it originated. How about this, do you know if a British Citizen emigrates his/her state pension is frozen with no further increases? If a British Citizen emigrates and then comes back to the UK for medical treatment he/she must wait 6 months whereas a new immigrant or refugee will get IMMEDIATE treatment. It makes my blood boil !

    • avatar
      Duncan

      Frankly when the UK makes up just under 1% of EU land mass and accounts for just under 8% of it’s population it’s fairly easy to see why immigration is such a hot potato for the UK. But that said, freedom of movement runs against the sovereign interests of all states. The fewer checkpoints the easier it is for someone to slip the net. Lets suppose hypothetically that a know Isis supporter boards a train in Italy. Cctv is later reviewed and confirms this, meanwhile several hours have passed and this suspect could well now be in Austria, Germany, France or even have doubled back and gone deeper into Italy. It takes up resources to check all cctv for possible further sightings. The suspect would be being cautious so may not get caught by cameras again. Several days pass, the suspect appears again. Caught by the media during some atrocity. Police now know where to look, but too little too late. Plus the suspect (or guilty party at this point) can still travel with relative impunity across continental Europe and sneak back out of the EU entirely. Or more worryingly, lay low and strike again. I do hope for Frances sake that le pen doesn’t win power. The notion is equivalent to UKIP running our country (scary thought!). But at the same time I hope for the sakes of all our neighbours that the EU may now be willing to review it’s border control policies. My thoughts are with you all during these upsetting times.

    • avatar
      Paula

      I understand and I will answer you question. The breaking point has been reached! However, to solve the problem we need to sort out things in the Middle East. My point is you may not be able to stop people at some point. This would be a funny example but I hope you’ve seen “Hunger games” lool Could president Snow stop the poor and the hungry? What is more, any agression towards refugees will lead to radicalisation… To your second point about having to wait for 6 months. It isn’t fair of course and it has to change (of course) but for it isn’t a strong enough argument for leaving the EU. A friend of mine is from Bulgaria and if they don’t pay contributions for a long period (even if they are simply working in another EU) they have to pay 800 pounds to be back on (just saying). No system is perfect! The system we are going to get now is going to be equally bad if not worse.

  31. avatar
    SD

    Mass deportations of muslims may become necessary if islamic terrorism grows out of control of the security services, we cannot and will not tolerate a Syria style civil war on European Streets, deportation however ugly and unwanted will become the logical solution if this continues. The solution is to limit migration and asylum from islamic countries to a minimum, those that are here and known to elbe extremists should have their citizenship removed and they should be deported, the building of mosques should be limited and the spreading of islamic ideology limited as well, we must also make it clear to Saudi Arabia that they will be held accountable for islamic attacks as long as they refuse to reform islam to separate it from violent teachings. We need to get balls, big balls and start doing what is necessary to win.

    • avatar
      Paula

      Dear SD. The more you try to stop something the more you give it wings. If you deport Muslims, if you keep them in camps, if you deprive their children from education you will be doing the radical islam a favour! We really don’t need and don’t want this!

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @SD
      Outrageous!

      I am not a Muslim, indeed I am NOT a fan of Islam.

      Nonetheless, deportations of Muslims just because they follow Islam is SCANDALOUS!.

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      The world’s misery can hardly be resolved by all those who are involved and full of conflicting agendas. Is, trying to be strictly political and humanitarian CORRECT be attainable & mutual inclusive? Where to make shortcuts?

      Worrying is: that so far, neither any UN, EU, US etc. bureaucratic think tank nor anybody else- be it from “the political science, the human science, sociological, religious or critics fraternity came up with an all encompassing & acceptable solution.

      Why? One has to conclude, that at the moment it is an impossible task, unable to be resolved by compartmentalized human thinking & actions. What is the next best idea than?

      Should there is a hidden agenda to augment the EU with 1 mio people/year for the next 30 years- to “safe guard” Europe’s survival or quicken it demise- this needs to be openly discussed in the face of technical innovation, robotics & automation.

  32. avatar
    Rémi Martin

    Where is it written she wants to leave EU??? Read first her program before writing such bullshits!!!

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ SD

      In part I agree with you.

      However, what should have been done is as I suggested some very long time ago on this website. All refugees and people entering the UK or the EU, should be filed to an off shore island where it is staffed with interviewers and security people. That way all who arrive without documentation can be returned to the country they left, and that country can then carry out the security screening on each one of them prior to their entering any part of Europe.

      Next move is to divide those from countries that are not war torn or considered unsafe and return them to their home nation. Making sure they cannot return to Europe without first having made an application from their home town.

      Follow that with allocating each of them or families to a myriad of countries that are safe throughout the world. Europe should not be left with this burden it is a problem for all countries and all countries should be willing to accept them as immigrants. It is a UN problem. They gave permission for war, let them sort out the mess. Places like the US, for example, have vast states with no residents at all. Now good clean facilities could be set up in any one of them to accommodate those fleeing war. Remember when Israel was fist built immigrants lived and worked in Kibbutz to make a living and feed themselves and their children. They didn’t expect to be supported by the Israeli tax payer.

      All immigrants living inside Europe and the UK who have committed criminal offences should be returned to their country of origin immediately they leave prison or the court. No holding centres, just straight on the plane or the ship to transfer them back to their homeland. Likewise illegals.

      Those immigrants housed and taken in to any country who find they are not satisfied with their home or benefits, such as the family in the beautiful Isle of Bute, must be returned to their country of origin or their country of entering. They deserve to take care of their own life and not expect tax payers of the EU to feed, clothe and house them for more than one year whilst they get on their own feet. If they cannot do that they are unable to fulfil their expectations of employment and a new life. Likewise if they cannot speak the language of the country they reside after a period of time, they are then again, unable to make a life for themselves until they are fluent. They are not able to drive, find a job, or assimilate into the society of their choice unless they commit to and carry out that expectation.

      And lastly, if they cannot accept the living expectations and culture of the country they live in, they must leave it and go where they will be happier among the culture they want to be part of. Backward cultures cannot thrive and be part of Europe. Under any circumstances as it is creating no go areas of dramatic violence to the lives of Europeans and they don’t want it. Ever.

      Here is an example of ingratitude that should not be tolerated.

      http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/01/syrian-refugees-welcomed-remote-scottish-island-160114135343862.html

      And

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3706625/Syrian-refugees-settled-remote-Scottish-island-complain-depressed-area-old-people-people-come-die.html

      They must work and save and find a job elsewhere and feed themselves if they don’t like the massive benefits they are getting for doing nothing.

  33. avatar
    Rémi Martin

    Where is it written she wants to leave EU??? Read first her program before writing such bullshits!!!

    • avatar
      Paula

      @Tarquin Farquhar . You are not serious about the refugees crisis being a problem of the EU-27? As far as I remember the UK has been heavily involved in the Middle East? Iraq war rings a bell may be?! I really doubt the the rest of Europe is that stupid to take it all on them … It is not only the EU that is affected. How about Turkey, it has little to do with the EU and if a civil war unravels more refugees cross the EU border. Then then they will flee to Bulgaria and Greece. Both countries have no interest in stopping migration into the rest of the EU. How about a Grexit and Bulgexit (they have strong nationalist parties too)! Both countries can let the migration wave spread across Europe etc…Eventually we will have refugee children and teenagers growing on the streets, being tossed around Europe (cause nobody wants them). We are going to be the ones to radicalise them. More mature attitude to the refugees problem is required urgently!

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Maybe not but she wants an end to free movement and (as the UK is consistently being reminded) you cannot be part of the EU without it…or would France be allowed cherry pick which parts of the EU it likes?..:-)

  34. avatar
    Kevin

    Many good points raised by Catherine B. The screening process on an island is going to cost the taxpayers a huge expense. So how about this. The settlers be given a time of adjustment during which they MUST find work and support themselves. When they start work they should pay back more than just inland revenue tax rate until the cost of screening and settlement benefits etc. are repaid in full, after all British Citizens that want to better themselves through Uni have to repay their loans etc – no freebies there is there? With regards to immediate deportation of those not entitled to be here YES. What about the disgrace of the man that walked through the channel tunnel and then was incarcerated.The deportation order had to be raised through the courts I believe costing the taxpayer God knows how much. Why wasn’t he treated the same as any person arriving from a country without a visa, where such is required. They would be put straight back on a plane to return from whence they came. Our laws need some logic to be applied! With regards to speaking English. Any person that wishes to join their spouse settled in the UK from a non EU country must pass a stiff English language test called Knowledge of Life and Language. The same MUST be applied to any immigrant for whatever reason including EU countries or there will be segregation. I actually feel discriminated against in my own country when looking at adverts in shop windows written in any language other than English. For the others amongst you kind enough to have read my post please don’t tell me to learn another language. I already speak 3 – English my native language and 2 others with a degree of fluency. I am currently learning a fourth albeit slowly lol. (No trumpet blowing -I just don’t want to be accused of being too lazy or arrogant to learn another language).

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Kevin:

      Its not as expensive as what we are currently having to pay out in various different way.

      They had all immigrants to the USA in WWII go the Ellis Island off the mainland of NYC. It worked well and they would return those they felt would not fit in with US life.

      Here are some pics.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4wzVuXPznk

  35. avatar
    Paula

    Kevin, just a quick question and please answer. Should all British expats living in Spain and the rest of Europe pass a language test similar to the “Knowledge of Life and Language”? If they don’t pass should they return home? There are entire “English towns” in mainland Europe. Not only do we not the speak the language but we force locals to speak English! You are just talking from a position of strength BUT the UK may find itself in worse position one day for whatever reason and I would be very happy if allowed to travel around Europe without being fluent in Spanish, French, German, Swedish etc just saying..
    Lastly, well done for speaking 3 languages. Just out of curiosity, what languages do you speak?
    What I find arrogant, Kevin, is when people see things “black and white”, often generalising i.e. taking about taxpayers’ money etc. However, the devil is in the details: “who is the Taxpayer?”, “What is the role of other countries in building Great Britain?”, “Are there Brits who have been relying on taxpayers’ money for generations?”. National pride can be a horrible thing, look at Donald Trump’s slogan “Let’s make America great again”. Last time I checked it was great enough! I don’t mind Brexit but I really hate what it represents.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Paula,

      When immigrants or immigrant part of the population start to riot, complain about the culture of their adopted country, murder the locals, rape their children, break into their homes, commit crime against the locals and the state, and are generally a nuisance, yes, they should be returned to their country of origin.

      If they cannot speak the language, and as a result, cannot function or make a living for themselves. If they refuse to allow the indigenous people of that host country to enter their areas and threaten or harass them if they come near them, then, Yes, again, send them packing. If they insist on mutilation of their own children,as in FGM, because their culture or religion insists on it, that is not a religion that is worthy of a civilised country and they should be banned from entering a society as they cannot possibly accept or be happy in a country that makes it illegal. Likewise honour killing and inequality of females.

      If they want to live on the benefits of that country, and those of the host nation cannot get reciprocal benefits when they go to their country of origin, yes, get rid of them.

      However, the millions of immigrants in my country, who come from God knows where, get all the benefits we have fought and paid for, including health care that is free at the point of use. No one should be allowed to benefit from these benefits unless ‘their country’ offers ‘identical’ benefits to them, even the elderly and disabled.

      Which means, all those in my country who have not paid for those civilised expectations, should likewise be forced back home until their country of origin can give the British migrants what they get at home.

      Answered your question?

    • avatar
      Kevin

      Dear Paula.
      In answer to your question should expats living abroad pass a test similar to the KOLL test? The KOLL test is designed to show that people are equipped to live in the UK so it’s logical to say yes, you should know some of the local language of wherever you live in the world. Paula, if you had a fire in your house and called the fire department in Spain, first I expect you’d be very nervous about the situation so may talk a little excitedly. IF the Spanish person receiving the call didn’t speak English (and why should he/she?) what then? What would you do? Talk louder? Being sent home for not passing the test. That’s not how it works. You need to demonstrate competence BEFORE you are allowed to live there. No arrogance, no discrimination. It means that an immigrant can integrate better and also more safely.
      With regards your comments about seeing things black and white, tax payers and arrogance.( I’ll quote you: ‘Not only do we not the speak the language BUT WE FORCE locals to speak English!’ May I ask you, is that not arrogant)? Are you suggesting that the indigenous population has to bend toward you?
      Seeing some things black and white is, in my opinion, appropriate though I agree not everything is clear cut. Deportation of the man that walked through the tunnel with no right of entry to the UK should have been treated in exactly the same way as any non EU visitor arriving at an immigration check point without a visa – return from whence you came. That individual has entered the UK and broken the law.
      With regards your freedom of movement around Europe, I don’t suggest that travelling around the countries of Europe means you should learn the local language however if you’re going to settle somewhere then yes, at least learn some pleasantries like ‘please, thank you, sorry’ and other essentials Like FIRE I LIVE AT xxxxxxxx. Please come quickly’.
      For my sins, I speak English (UK and USA vocabulary) French (oral, written), Thai – competent oral (now learning to read and write with 44 consonants, 14 commonly used vowels and 5 tones – not easy believe me) and finally I have only just started to learn Swedish – picking up some simple pleasantries and vocabulary.

    • avatar
      Paula

      Hi Kevin. If you are for reciprocal rules then I agree with you. I have a friend whose parents retired in Spain (Marbella) and they speak little to no Spanish. Where they live most properties are owned by Brits and they said that most people there spoke English. What is more, they showed pictures of the local pubs they go to where people speak nothing but English, there are UK flags etc. That is why I said ‘Not only do we not the speak the language BUT WE FORCE locals to speak English!’. A major job requirement in that area now is that you speak English, so to my surprise English is spoken in hospitals, stores etc. which means that my friend’s parents are able to get by speaking little Spanish.
      If you think they should be deported back, the same way people in the UK who don’t speak English should be deported back to their countries then I see your point. I am not sure I’d support such decision but I can see where you’re coming from.

  36. avatar
    Positive EU/Brit

    Dear Catherine, a British Passport costs 2000 pounds and a test, that’s all which means that there are a lot of people in this country with UK passports who do the things you mentioned and you have nowhere to deport them back to. What is more they don’t have to have paid tax to get a UK passport! You are talking about how much the UK has fought for what we have, really? I mean, how about how much the UK has stolen from other countries… especially some of those that honour mutilation. My point half the world speaks English for a reason. Here is a list of all the countries that have gained independence from the UK:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have_gained_independence_from_the_United_Kingdom
    Back to the point do you think that FGM comes from other EU countries and correct me if I am wrong but there is such thing as deportation for criminal offences (within the EU).
    I live opposite a council estate with EU immigrants and UK – citizens (some UK born) and many of them have never paid tax, the have no idea how the NHS is funded and no clue about history etc. Complete and total ignorance especially among the UK-born ones! All they complain about is benefits.
    Catherine, deportation for criminal offences, 100% for it but generalisations about Great Britain and the Great British nation that have achieved everything on their own sound a bit iffy (to say the least). If we want to be a great nation, leaders in today’s world, we have to see beyond a birth certificate and a passport !
    One last thing, EU citizens are less likely to apply for passports due to free movement of people which means that they can be deported back for criminal offences. What is more they are less likely to retire here and burden the UK in terms of NHS, housing etc.. On the other hand non-EU immigrants are more likely to apply for a British passport. They also tend to stay in the UK for life which means that they contribute to the UK aging population. There is a lot of data that I can find to support this. All this means that if the UK economy performs well and more labour force is required it will be imported from abroad, those people are more likely to get UK passports and to stay here for life. Just think about it, is Brexit going to solve the FGM problem, is it going to reduce migration from countries with high levels of radicalisation and is it going to reduce the money we pay to foreign nationals for benefits (bearing in mind they can get passport)? NO NO NO!

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Positive EU/Brit

      You need to re-read what I wrote in answer to the previous poster. As, you have completely missed the gist. Have another try.

      Just to give you a tip. The previous writer asked if Brits living in EU countires should also be deported under the circumstances I gave for EU nationals entering and living in the UK.

      And in case you forget, all EU nationals were not born in European countries, and like the crowd in Calais, the always find their way to the UK. The benefits are better their.

      Perhaps this will enlighten you.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Complete load of leftist bull

      “Immigrants have been the pillar of our economy by working harder, getting paid less and paying more taxes”…maybe you are a idle scrounger but some of us work
      hard and pay a hell of a lot in tax…. probably a damn sight more than a whole field full of immigrant potato pickers

      “Our economic model is designed around the inequality between wealthy native Europeans and the hardworking, lesser paid newly arrived migrants”….yer cos all us rich Europeans are sitting back on chaise longues being hand fed grapes while all the “salt of the earth” hard working immigrants keep our country running

      “It is evident that there are forces constantly trying to create a clash between Eastern and Western values” no force is trying, there is a fundamental clash between Eastern and Western values that has been there for centuries and will never go away no matter how much pussy footing left wingers cry that we need to be an inclusive society, some cultures will never integrate

      And as for the fear, it is real. There is a fear of being in the wrong place at the real time and have some nutter blow himself up or go mad with a knife. Try telling the relatives of those killed or people who have been maimed in a terrorist attack that they have a collective hysteria

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Paul X:

      How can any immigrant entering the UK be an asset and pay their way on £12,000 a year? That way they pay little or no tax, qualify for tax credits and all the benefits we offer our people. Get free health care, education and housing, yet, they continue to be considered a benefit. It is insanity. They cost us an absolute financial fortune, and on top of it yelp they are not getting enough. Additionally they want to take over our society, law and culture, bring with them the most horrific of practices and expect those practices to be welcomed. Ending up, after blowing up our tube and buses, carry out mass rape of white children by the hundreds and then decapitate a British soldier in a London street in midday. Now, at our cost through legal aid, are appealing their conviction. The lawyers who took that up should be exiled. Our government did that to a King who wanted to marry a divorcee, yet say they can do nothing to a bunch of savage killers……

      This we are to call an asset? The politicians despise our people, our country and our civilization and they are determined to demolish it. Thereby leaving us all homeless.

  37. avatar
    Peter

    No. FN supporters will observe real-life over the next months how isolationalism gets Jon Doe down through real wage cuts and dismissals because of stalled investment.

  38. avatar
    Kevin

    @Catherine Benning- Hear hear Catherine, Again talking about British citizens who wish to bring a non EU partner to UK they must earn at least 18600GBP or have 40000GBP in the bank. God our policies are really screwed up! I have watched immigrants walk along the street and throw rubbish down as they would in their own country. That’s disrespect and I hate it. I walked from my sons house to town centre on one visit. I saw TWO people from scores (collecting kids from school) with features that I associate with a truly British person.They were speaking another European language I’d better not say what for fear of being accused of discrimination lol. The others were ALL covered head to foot in black. I’ll leave it to your discretion to decide where they may have come from. I walked past the Somali Centre, The African Community Centre, etc etc…….Am I really in Britain? The streets were littered with rubbish I could well have been on another continent. There are some people lucky enough to live in the still beautiful parts of Britain but be warned……it’s coming your way!

  39. avatar
    Randal Baatz

    Those three words in the Lisbon Treaty are for many a mission statement for the Union, but for the British they raise fears of increased powers for Brussels at the expense of national governments.

    • avatar
      Jean-Pierre Rosa

      Of course Russian scum bags want instability in Europe…

    • avatar
      Goran Batovanja

      Russia is Europe. So, what is logic for this you say?

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      None… EU is peace they said and when I see how Jean-Pierre Rosa is calling EU’s neighbor, I’m not sure EU is for peace!

  40. avatar
    Patrik Klingborg

    Let’s hope not, especially considering how poorly UK politicians have preformed since the vote. Does anyone really know what they are trying to do (except Brexit means Brexit, and insulting their counterparts from other EU countries)?

    • avatar
      Patrik Klingborg

      They ought to tell the people (not to mention the parliament which will trigger article 50 as it seems now) what they aim for considering the massive implications leaving the EU means, regardless if you are for or against it. It’s a big difference between cutting all ties or staying in the Single market, as an example. It’s not about showing hands, it’s about letting the people (through the parliament) know what they are voting for.

    • avatar
      Jean-Pierre Rosa

      The best part is Farage now leaving to go live in the US. Can’t think of a bigger “oops”.

    • avatar
      Patrik Klingborg

      To allow your parliament to know what that vote on when triggering article 50.

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      It’s sad, because she doesn’t really want to leave EU, but the medias aren’t speaking about the others who really want that!

  41. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris

    Brexit and Trump and Putin…. Oh yes.. And if Le Pen gets elected, goodbye EU, so long Europe and European integration, I am moving to Brazil to teach English to kids there… I don’t want to live in a continent that turns to far right, extremism and nationalism, especially Europe which has gone through so much in the past because of these “qualities” of ours: chauvinism, nationalism and conservatism…. I hope the French will show the way for a new Europe, or I don’t want to belong in this continent any longer…

  42. avatar
    Vinko Rajic

    GERMAN ECONOMY IS EXCELLENT ! Yes , Germans are hard working and they produce high quality . PROBLEM , who created this justice , The tariffs on Chinese made solar panels range from 100% to 110% and why all people drive German fuel cars and not electric . German economy is going to become similar to French , Italian and Spanish if we have solar panels and electric cars . Germans want to work with Arabs and use rest of the EU for their export. STUPID , Germany should exit the EU and join Arab League . I do not want to have Arab fuel and German engines making noise and pollution . German economy is going down if the EU collapse and we start importing cars from China , Chinese produce excellent quality , also electric cars and buses . Germany should break connection to Arab oil otherwise China is going to have many friends in the EU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvRu7XazNAQ

    • avatar
      Giulia Noia Dipresa

      Jean-Pierre Rosa democracy is democracy even when you don’t like the candidates…

    • avatar
      Bobi Dochev

      Giulia Noia Dipresa If I learned something, this is that the biggest democrats don’t like the democracy if it isn’t working in their favour (or in most cases can say in their profit :) )

    • avatar
      Jean-Pierre Rosa

      Giulia Noia Dipresa france is not a democracy …

    • avatar
      Jean-Pierre Rosa

      Bobi Dochev france is not a democracy, and no one is calling for an end of democracy, only better options. Pay attention.

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      We don’t need to elect our masters and call that democracy, it’s just a joke! France is a dictatorship by thinking, if you don’t think like the medias say to you to do, you’re a facist, racist, xenophobe… Did I forget something?

    • avatar
      Giulia Noia Dipresa

      wait Rémi Martin I’m not understanding what you mean.

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      Easy, who is ruling the world?

    • avatar
      Giulia Noia Dipresa

      who owes the money maybe Rémi? :D but I am a romantic I still want to believe that people’s votes matter something…

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      The peoples vote like the medias say them to vote! ;)

    • avatar
      Giulia Noia Dipresa

      Rémi Martin I don’t think so, I think people is smarter than that.

  43. avatar
    Ivan Burrows

    .

    Of course it will, the peoples in the EU have been ignored for to long by the pro EU fanatics and now Brussels will pay the price for its arrogance.

    Vive la liberté !

    • avatar
      Patrik Klingborg

      Diaconu George Razvan I agree. I think this is a great page/initiative, but seeing nationalistic propaganda being spewed here every day by Ivan Burrows really takes away a lot of the credibility. Debate is good, paid trolls are not.

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      Ivan, she’ll never be president, just for a simple reason, her votes don’t never grow between the two election’s rounds! It’s sad, because she doesn’t really want to leave EU, but the medias aren’t speaking about the others who really want that! It’s just a joke, and if one day France will leave this useless EU, it won’t close her ambassades for sure, like UK did! ;)

  44. avatar
    Sasa Lunic

    Terrible! Europe is turning to a far right!!! What will happen with the Left now when Hillary Clinton loses :(

  45. avatar
    Eugenia Serban

    Hope not. Hope France will not vote for isolation and that extremist far right racist party.

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      Don’t woory, she doesn’t want to leave EU! She’ll never be president, just for a simple reason, her votes don’t never grow between the two elction’s rounds! It’s just a joke, and if one day France will leave this useless EU, it won’t close her ambassades! ;)

  46. avatar
    Marko Martinović

    EU is commiting one disaster after another in the name of political correctness. EU needs her and people like her to save it from self destruction. Left did not just fail, it went insane

    • avatar
      Jean-Pierre Rosa

      The EU needs hatefulness and ignorance to survive? Really?

    • avatar
      Marko Martinović

      Conservativism is not hate, nor ignorance. Every group has bad apples, but those few do not define the whole. You are showing your ignorance and prejudice

    • avatar
      Jean-Pierre Rosa

      Marko Martinović no, you are saying that misogyny and xenophobia are acceptable political speeches; that is the current face of conservatism and yes, it defines it as a whole just as you define that “the left went insane” or do fucktarded broad strokes of stupidity don’t apply to your dumb ass comments?

    • avatar
      Krol Jeff

      go marine lepen !!!! see what she is capable its funny how people are saying she is crap or whatever but she never had a chance to prove her worth … funnny …. and ironic … and everyone votes for sarkozy and holland say they were awesome and after they got the job they turn like crap hahaha french are killing me ….. hope they revolt or vote lepen hope taht will works

    • avatar
      Marko Martinović

      It is not hate nor mysoginy nor xenophobia. To suggest it is a foolish lie. Those labels are not true, and no longer have power to silence. Your asertions are unfounded.

    • avatar
      Marko Martinović

      Regresive left have no arguments, they just use unfounded labels and insults. Despicable

    • avatar
      Marko Martinović

      If only emoji’s where arguments, you might have some.

  47. avatar
    Jorge Machado

    Ok im unfollowing this page, this is the captain obvious page not debate or wtv you want to call it

  48. avatar
    Jean-Pierre Rosa

    Brexit is a disaster so no. Racism, Russian misinformation and meddling, xenophobia and ignorance will boost Le Pen.

    • avatar
      Jason Gerard Mac Cárthaigh

      you seem to know nothing about French politics or life in the UK, please inform yourself more on those issues before trying to make uneducated statements like this !

  49. avatar
    Thomas Bickle

    I think people will look at Brexit and how much of a shambles it has been and decide to stay together in the union. The weak link Britain has gone and Europe will be stronger for it. If Scotland rejoins this will also be a massive ‘don’t do what Britain did’

  50. avatar
    Andrea Brown

    Hard brexit will destroy Le Pen. Soft Brexit will aid Le Pen. Statements from Uk politicians are aiding Le Pen. Not tackling serious issues around immigration and integration will assist le Pen. Their needs to be a break on non-EU immigration to allow adjustment for the polutations in Europe and until people have jobs again. Not giving Europeans jobs and forcing them to compete against non-EU people will create a right wing backlash. Those are the facts, deal with them.

  51. avatar
    Yordan Vasilev

    I think, Marine Le Pen will take around about 30%, but no more. The right wing candidate will win. And remember, the right populists became modern, no eurosceptics.

  52. avatar
    Goran Batovanja

    The only true united Europe is the one from Gibraltar to Vladivostok. Europe like that or no Europe at all

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      In the name of what? EU is a racist contruction, nothing else!

    • avatar
      Goran Batovanja

      But we must admit that there are some diferent entitys in the world. That is not racism but reality. My skin is white, all my ancesters were Christian. That is real. Does that make me racist?

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      Of course not, but now with globalisation, why would you like to keep yourself with your neighbors in an Europe? I don’t see nothing common between all of the european countrys, France can certainly more win with all the links we’ve in the world than to stay in such a construction!

    • avatar
      Goran Batovanja

      Rémi Martin Well, in totality of this world there are
      entiretys that are not subject of any person will. They are given from higher will. We can call it god or any name you like. This are separated civilisations that developed with almost none or very little contact throught many years. Those are: European-Chinese-India-North America-South America-Australia. It is natural that every one of them has some kind of association inside natural borders, and our borders are from Gibraltar to Vladivostok. Of course!!!!!! It does not mind that France ( or anybody else ) can not make deals with any subject outside of Europe, absolutely free and according to best France interest. Finally, to say that Roman Empire-Middle ages-Renesans-Modern times – that all of us, Europeans share together, have not any impact to us today is absolutely wrong. That is us! That is what we are! So, we dont need globalisation that will tell to us : “Deny your own identity!!!” If we go that way, that will make much resistance and very big problems. Im am not American, my dear. I will never be. Not American and not Arab. But I have respect for any good human being.

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      Can we do without Europe please? I don’t see an Afrika Union, or an Asian Union or I don’t know what kind of union over the world!!!

    • avatar
      Mihai Petru Ceuca

      India ( 1.3 billions people) and China (1.7 billions people) out of 7.5 billions really .. they are Unions. Europe – under 500 millions people. There are cities in these countries bigger than more than half of the european contries. Exemple : The US makes expensive drugs for HIV, cancer, HCV,… in Europe they cost tens of thousands of euros. In India and China ? Nope. The price is for everyone .. And nobody dares to cry in the USA over it. While here the pharma lobby and defenders of free commerce are in shock every time we dare open up the subject of pricing.

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      Impossible, she gets never more voices in the second round of an election than in the first one!

    • avatar
      Enric Mestres Girbal

      The EU goes stright to a precipice. Britain jumped in time and Lepen can follow, otherwise …goodbye Europe. Even Turkey laughs at us.

    • avatar
      Rémi Martin

      Sure, if France is leaving, I’m quite sure 3-5 others countries will follow and it’ll be the end! Lepen will make a referendum for stating in EU after 6 months when she’ll be elected…

  53. avatar
    Belamie Versco

    every governement who cares only about their own fans instead of everyone in the country will see their end. like nobody expected trump in the usa, because nobody cared about the countryside. one-sidedness only lasts for one election period….someday brexit will turn around again like all the walls in the world.

  54. avatar
    Morfitis Antonis

    Δεν είναι υπερ της Λεπεν αλλα είμαι υπερ του να φυγη αυτό το ΣΑΠΟΙΟ ΚΑΤΕΣΤΗΜΕΝΟ που κυβερνα την ευρωπη

Your email will not be published

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.

Notify me of new comments. You can also subscribe without commenting.

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

By continuing to use this website, you consent to the use of cookies on your device as described in our Privacy Policy unless you have disabled them. You can change your cookie settings at any time but parts of our site will not function correctly without them.