Is the European Union unravelling? In the wake of Brexit, will more countries start clamouring for referendums of their own? Are we about to witness a “domino effect” across Europe, as Eurosceptic parties in France, the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Poland, and elsewhere force the issue of a vote on independence up the political agenda?
The Eurosceptic, anti-immigrant leader of the National Front party in France, Marine Le Pen, recently spelled it out clearly: “What I’m asking for is a referendum in France. Every EU member should be able to have its say in a referendum.”
Judging from your comments, many of our readers would agree. For example, we had a comment from Hannah arguing that it is self-evident that there is a great deal of unrest and dissatisfaction throughout most of Europe. She believes, therefore, that now Britain has voted to leave, others may follow suit.
To get a response to Hannah, we spoke to Dr. Jan Eichhorn, Chancellor’s Fellow in Social Policy at the University of Edinburgh and Research Director of the think tank d|part. What would he say to Hannah?
Well, I recently conducted a survey with some colleagues at the University of Edinburgh and the think tank d|part, in which we analysed views in six other EU Member States in quite a lot of depth: France, Spain, Germany, Ireland, Poland, and Sweden. So, quite different countries. And what was remarkable is that a lot of people in these countries also have an appetite for a referendum. So, in four of these six countries, there’s actually a plurality of people who say: “Yes, I’d like to have a referendum myself, actually. I’d like to have a similar decision-making process”.
There are countries where more people oppose a referendum. In Ireland, for example, there are more people who oppose having a referendum. Which is interesting, because Ireland is the country of the six with the strongest experience, actually, of constitutional referenda, particularly in recent years. So, it’s not a one-size-fits-all-answer. Different countries would react differently, though there is clearly an appetite for referenda in quite a few places.
The obvious question is: How would people vote if they had the chance? Clearly, this is a bit hypothetical: If this happened, what would you do? But we asked that question and, in all of those six countries, there was always a larger group of people who would want to remain in the EU than would want to leave. However, the extent of support for remaining in the EU varies greatly. So, when we look at Germany, at Spain, at Poland, at Ireland, it’s a clear majority in favour of staying in the European Union. When we look at France and Sweden, however, the margin narrows quite substantially. And what we see there is actually that, although it is a larger group that wants to remain, you have a very substantial minority that is actually saying at this point already, in a hypothetical referendum: “I would vote to leave”…
To get another perspective, we also spoke to Bruce Stokes, Director of Global Economic Attitudes at Pew Research Centre. What did his research find?
We just did a survey in 10 EU countries and, maybe not surprisingly, 65% of the British say they want to bring some power back to London from Brussels. This is what the referendum’s all about; it’s about whether you want more Europe or less Europe. However, what we found also was that 47% of the Swedes, 44% of the Dutch, and 43% of the Germans also said they wanted to bring more power back to their national capitals too.
So, the survey we’ve just completed suggests that there is a significant minority – and in some cases a plurality – of populations in continental European countries who also want less Europe and not more Europe. And Hannah can draw her own conclusions about what that means following the British vote, but it does suggest that this question is not resolved on continental Europe either.
Finally, we spoke to Bojan Pancevski, EU Correspondent for the Sunday Times. As a journalist following the mood in Europe closely, what would he say to Hannah? Will Brexit increase the appetite for referendums in other European countries, such as France and the Netherlands?
Oh, yes, absolutely. Not just in France and the Netherlands, you’ve also got Austria where the biggest political party is asking for a referendum; in Poland there are many forces asking for the same; in Denmark it’s also on the cards. So, I think certainly it will very much encourage populist and anti-EU movements and political parties to push for referenda of their own.
We’ll have to wait and see what happens, but what’s interesting to note is that EU approval ratings in the polls are actually higher in Britain than in France and the Netherlands at the moment, two of the founding members of the European Union. So, this idea that Britain is overtly Eurosceptic is not true; Statistically speaking, France at the moment is more Eurosceptic than Britain. There was a poll earlier this week that showed that 58% of people surveyed in the Netherlands would vote to leave if they were given the chance.
However, I don’t think there will now be a series of referenda, because legislation is different, and the political situation is certainly much more stable in other countries than it is in Britain, with the Tory party split and so on. So, I don’t necessarily expect a wave of referenda to ensue. But certainly the pressure will be enormous.
Will more EU countries hold referendums? Will there be a domino effect, as popular pressure increases across Europe for votes on independence? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
316 comments Post a commentcomment
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The process of EU disintegration is now unstoppable.
You’d wish. The UK’s disintegration is on the table.
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/usd/5095-pound-to-dollar-exchange-rate-222311
The majority of British people live in England 54million so….
So what? it will still be only England.
It is amazing how quickly “unionism” give’s way to revanchism in this “democratic” EU. Even Ma Merkel cautions against hastiness & nastiness! She knows- both the Stasi & NSDAP.
Brexitism weakened people’s well-being. Let’s fight for prosperity!
Brexit- everyone sees something different in it! The fact- at least 50%+ are
dissatisfied- that is the MESSAGE of Brexit to the EU!
Forget bickering about treaties, human rights, regulations, rules, rules & rules!
No more batching, stalling & playing around- while there is between 10-50% unemployed youth in the EU! Wake up please its 12:00!
No one expected it! Now the Polish want backed by Mid Europe change. Ofcourse it ain`t gonna happen that change, so politicians will NEVER learn from the history.
It was expected by politicians, many trade talks were halted from 2015 with India for instance.
But we do learn, and most Central European countries are strong on this. Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania.
DePortugal is on track after PCP and BE, anti-EU parties that support the current government, brought the subject. Let us see.
Maybe the EU should enact legislation in order to require Member States to establish National qualified majorities to change the nature of their relationship with the EU which is, at the end of the day, a relationship which also concerns to the EU not only to particular countries. Many countries use the system of qualified majorities, at National level, to pass legislation regarding fundamental elements of their political systems confering stability, avoiding the easy and risky game of using them in electoral processes.
@Miguel Atanet
Don’t be silly, the corrupt EU already has messed things up with its cabal of corrupt bureaucrats.
@ Miguel Atanet
Sounds reasonable. ’50/50′ referenda devide the people quite a lot, just look at UK or Scotland.
Good luck with that. First you have to manage to take down most of the treaties that we imposed to us and that control every single aspect of this union. I once believe reform was possible to safe this mess.. I’m not naive anymore. It’s a failed project, it’s actually designed to fail, to uphold control over people, to install a central government and destroy national sovereignty around the continent. Enough is enough, political and economical union doesn’t work, let’s be adults about it and leave this madness be dismantled and let’s build a new better future together.
Yes. Of course. No one can put up with such a EE.
Yes!
it will do if there is no regime change, juncker needs to go, and Prodi should be bought back as caretaker until a new commissioner who is up to task (not a reject incompetent that couldn’t make it in his country), is appointed.
@Rosy Forlenza
Juncker the president of the ‘Banana Federation’ should have gone a long time ago.
Lol … Prodi a total has-been, didn’t even manage to get elected President of Italy … Thxs for the laugh!!!
For as long as the political elite in Bruxels and elsewhere continue to lead the EU in non-democratic ways, YES, one should expect that!
There is nothing undemocratic about Brussels. Those who know the least are the loudest mouths. Much like how the part of rural England that does not have immigration is the most anti-immigrant. England was always a special case. It’s purpose and the public life it nurtured was one of hindering the EU.
There is certainly a movement for change, but change may or may not be realised through a referendum. It depends on the actions of the politicians. If they are not very responsive to people’s wishes, then there might be more national votes on EU membership. However, those referendums would only bring positive results when people actually know what they are voting for and do not let themselves be deceived by lies, false promises and unrealistic expectations for the future.
I hope not
@Maia Alexandrova
It was the wealthy elites that held sway in the UK and elsewhere 100 years ago.
It is the wealthy elites and the political elites that hold sway in the EU today.
“Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.”
European countries are very different from England. England has always been anti-European, insular, the lowest rate of foreign languages spoken amongst Europeans. Most European eurosceptics are very different from that, with very clear grievances. For instance the Austrians are bothered by the non EU migrants. The Italian eurosceptics are bothered by the migrants and feel lft alone by the rest of the EU. One more reason to implement a common external border policy and institution in Southern Greece, and Southern Italy.
@Gyorgy
The UK is an island, therefore it is insular – a statement of the bleeding obvious I would say!
The UK has also been the stablest nation for the last millennium.
Why should the UK want to pool democracy with the ‘brothers-in-war’ namely France and Germany, responsible for 5 European-wide wars in the 19C and 2 world-wars in the 20C respectively?
The EU is a good idea but NOT if it continues on its hell bent vision fortified by corruption, unaccountability and sociopathy.
You are not qualified to question the EU. The EU is beneficial for the continental countries, so let it be their business. The rest is just blatant lies. All EU officials are elected or appointed by elected people.
@Gyorgy
LOL!
Now you seek to deny me an opinion, a wee bit undemocratic methinks!
No wonder you are so pro ‘Banana Federation’!
@ Tarquin Farquhar
Wars of past centuries have rather limited influence on present democracies. But as you started it: how much violence did past English elites exert on Scottish, Irish, or their own people – not to speak of building and maintaining their ‘Empire’? EU was built to prevent such warmongering attitude.
But before Britain liberally offers to pool democracy again, you could fight for the reintroduction of democracy in Britain itself, replacing ‘her majesty’s government’ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_Kingdom), today rather speaking for financial elites than for demos or monarch, and elected by parliamentarians of questionable voter representation (‘majority vote’). Good luck.
Meanwhile, Europeans already started discussing how to improve the EU treaties.
Wars between European nations are over. Anyone with a mind stuck in the past should move on.
The Iron curtain has also fallen almost 30 years ago, but it seems that on the island they have been sleeping all this time and not even noticed it, so they still think in cold war terms.
There are even worse cases, though. Many are stuck even in earlier times, around 100 years ago, when there were first and second class citizens, according to wealth. The British people may be richer than others, but they are not first class humans or first class Europeans. They have to make a real effort to move on and catch up with the present times, especially the pensioners who were the main reason why UK voted out of the EU.
@Peter
As someone who is British-born and 50% Celtic – I am quite familiar with the British Empire and its history.
IF the EU had listened to not just the UK but other EU nations about its lack of democracy, its corruption and its unaccountability then the UK would still be in the EU.
Lets hope against hope that once article 50 has been triggered, maybe, just maybe the 2 sides can get together and the UK can pick some cherries and the EU can be democratised and perhaps the 2 can join together to form a new EU 2.0.
@Maia Alexandrova
“Wars between European nations are over.”
Ergo, we no longer need a failing EU.
QED!
Hope so, the house of cards is about to tumble :-D
There should be, but there probably won’t be. The EU and its members are, after all, not democracies.
@Gyorgy
I raise you China.
National States will always stand above this pathetic union. We fought the Jerries back in WWII. We will not be subjected by them now!
In Europe independent nation states equal war, sooner or later. (the English traditionally wanted this so that just shows who we trusted with membership) That is why we have to able to overcome the poison of nationalism and not be stuck in the past and see ourselves as equal humans. As for the Jerries, you should not have forged your statistics. Good old primitivism: it’s the other’s fault.
@Gyorgy
“Oneworldism” is far worse than nationalism!
The USAs existence proves that a continent sized country works very well.
Hear hear
Yes, to show the world any other country won’t leave the EU if given the choice.
Brexit is a red card for the mad irresponsible leaders. If UE is to survive, a change in leadership is necessary.
O, they will.
That is tha main reason the EU will fight against referenda.
Probably hard to believe, Jaime Oliveira, but a LOT of europeans are totally fed up with the unelected anti-democratic warmongers in Brussels.
We don’t want a dictatorship, we don’t want a unites states of europa and least of all we want war with Russia.
You voted, your camp lost: get over it.
And also remember that british voted, in no – other contry people voted and also in Britain now they are in trouble because Scottish and North-Irland people now want to leave u.k. and join europe.
We are starting a Referendum Party in Belgium, the Netherlands, France, Germany and the UK… https://www.facebook.com/ReferendumParty
If Britos will not be stop it very sharply with many side consequences, then there is a risk that the peace and stability in Europe can be in risk ! EU as a democratic-multinational-plural-peaceful institutions should survive.
Yes we have to vote them out, instead of waiting for them to trigger Article 50.
@Gyorgy
Oh, please do.
peaceful?
to all countryes ::::: Stay in Europa Union ::::::::::::::
I think there will be more countries wanne leave the EU
The EU, as it is now has to fail. This is not what europeans were hoping for! Get rid of corrupt, traitor EU polititians and then it could work! No more Junkers, Merkel, Schulz and co.! For a new European Peoples Union! Europe for Europeans!
And I suppose that you would accept to be candidate for being the next European Leader – would you by any chance know any politician who is not corrupt and traitor? – i mean maybe except your family and personal friends
I believe that the shock and realization of what’s going on in the uk will make people more aware of the dangers of the populist moves that plague europe with it’s constant bickering without the vaguest insight of alternative solutions.
It’s first and i expect, the smalest consequence thus far is the result of the elections on spain. The pro euro party won by more while the euroskepticals, and those that negotiated with them lost on all fronts.
Even here in portugal, while we have 1 party claiming a referendum, i feel from comment boxes and the general feel of people, we’re living in a slightly more pro europe mood since brexit.
It might be that one day, we all, finally realise, that we are not alown in this world and only joining with each other makes profit for all of us. Middle ages are far far away😊
We can only hope.
Some country like Italy can’t hold the referendun
I must laugh at so many of the comments here! Sweden can be the Carbage Can that pays for everything, trying to solve the Refugee Crises and taking repsonsability for so many policy areas in the Union. How long do you seriously think that normal Swedish citizens will keep up?
Sweden paying for everything? Last time I checked Sweden pays 2.68% of the EU budget. I know this is the hidden agenda of the English but let’s not be fooled.
Probably there will be. However, this should not be a thing to be afraid of. I respect the British vote, even if I don’t think that the result is a good one for the UK. The Brexit can be a unique opportunity for the EU to push for reforms in several areas by:
– encouraging direct democracy in Europe
– rethinking and moving the competences where they should be (EU, national, regional). This means that some should go away from Brussels, others (like immigration and foreign policy) should be moved to Brussels
– organising a huge infrastructure program to unleash the economic potential that we have by creating jobs. The focus should be on energy, transport and digital infrastructure.
– making the Euro finally work by coordinating economic and fiscal policies
– re-industrializing the EU
– reversing the disastrous demographic trend
– taking fears about immigration seriosly. Maybe we should allow member states to limit immigration if it exceeds for instance 0,4% (or a similar threshold) of the population within 5 consecutive years
While those who limited migration can unlimitedly sell their products, right? The Britts f#### it up with their commonwealth migration and blaimed it on us.
Yes, Scotland and Northern Ireland!!!!!!
If there is no change in the way of European Integration, I suppose more Referendums or perhaps a French president Marine Le Pen.
I suggest another way: The European Federation
http://www.mister-ede.de/politik/die-europaeische-foederation/5216
That’s a Federation of some EU-Memberstates based on a common constitution. EU-Memberstates that not join this European Federation are still part of the EU.
@Mr Ede, sounds good! It appears alternative movements to reconstruct the failing EU system are seeing the light of day? Is an English version of your site available?
Direct democracy in action- use it!
In principle, only binding referendums should be demanded. It may differ by countries, but usually once it is initiated by the legislature- it will be binding. If it is requested by the electorate by collecting signatures- it is probably considered “advisory” only.
The “official” UK Brexit referendum seems to have been initiated (promised) by the PM (legislator) & is therefore binding. The possible second one- will probably only be considered advisory- a waste & “sour grapes”.
Countries who are ready to consider referendums should make sure to preempt the possibility of it being declared “as advice” only. Also the quorum conditions need to be known beforehand. The EU surely will put pressure on the legislators to ignore it. Go for it!
@EU Reform- Proactive
I feel sorry, that I can’t provide other language versions. But here are some crucial points.
1. The European Federation is based on a constitution.
2. The European Federation consists only of EU-Members.
3. To be part of the European Federation an EU-Member has to be 25 Years Member in the EU. Moreover the absolute majority of people, who are allowed to vote in this country, has to vote for the constitution. If for example the turnout is 80% then 62.5% of voters have to vote for the constitution.
4. Once a country is member of the European Federation, it is no more allowed to leave the European Union. If the country wants to leave, the country first hast to leave the European Federation.
5. The European Federation knows a right to separate.
6. All EU-members which are not part of the European Federation are still in the EU. So they have for example fully market access to other EU-Countries inside and outside the European Federation.
The big advantage of the European Federation is the possibility of a constitutional based further integration for the one part of the EU while the other part has a safe place in the EU without any duty to follow this way.
@Mr- Ede
Thank you replying!
To initiate & make any new European project attractive & better than the old one it needs to aim to improve TRADE internally & globally and further increase EMPLOYEMNT internally- think big- forget to fit into the narrow minded, restrictive, elitest & bickering EU coat!
A FEW principles for starters:
• to be fully inclusive & open to all 47 sovereign members of the Council of Europe.
• sovereignty of all 47 to be respected, only adapted to allow & further free trade
• empire builders, owners of capital need to be convinced & become equal & fair partners
• be based on a modular construct, to add more “integration modules” to it, if & when desired, ready for it, useful by consent & democratic choice
• the “base module” is a pure trade union only. Again all inclusive, void of political grandeur, but friendly & inviting to all who wish to trade with it. Open to Europe’s 47- no exclusions!
• using the previous ECC and any useful EU institutions- not to re- invent what is working well- the “wheel” has been invented already!
• China’s example of non interference in others countries sovereign affairs respected & adopted. The US corporate influence on political matters kept in check. Banks to become banks again & not risky casinos. Security shared with NATO. No plans for an EU army!
• The main trading language remains English- which is a globally usage
Any incompatibilities? Any new project need lots of inputs- from whatever any willing side!
@EU Reform – Proactive
Thank you too for your reply.
In the moment the European Federation offers a design for a Constitution and a partnership-agreement with the EU.
The constitution ensures that only EU-Members can be part of the European Federation and that they are not allowed to leave. Moreover the constitution binds the European Federation to EU-law and the constitution is for sure in a way, which allows more steps of integration.
Mister Ede- Herzlichen Dank!
“Die Europäische Föderation” as envisioned, subordinate’s itself to the EU & is restrictive- if correctly understood? Probably, that will not attract many- to guarantee success. Viel Glueck!
@EU reform- proactive
The European Federation is not subordinated to the EU. But the European Federation is subordinated to the EU-law. So EU-law must not be in conflict to the constitution of the European Federation. But such a conflict I don’t see in the moment.
I think it is attractive for all EU-Members. The one part of the EU gets a real common constitution and the other part can easy stay in the EU without the need of deeper integration.
interesting discussion.
@EU Reform-proactive
I have strong doubts that the dream of many – “pure trade union only. Again all inclusive, void of political grandeur” – is possible.
The single market of the EEA (all members states of the EU are in the EEA) is much more sophisticated that a standard free trade agreement.
To reach that level of maturity, you need a lot of multilateral treaties and rules. I don’t know how this can be done without any international political structure. The tricky questions hide in the details, like: who sets the regulatory standards for products? For instance, assume you want to create something like a single market without political structure. Now, one country allows genetically modified vegetables to be sold, while the others don’t. What do you do? 1) exclude that country from the trade agreement 2) include it and let it sell its products also in the other countries, which goes against their standards 3) or you find a multilateral agreement. And exactly this last part is difficult without international political institutions, that define who has a say on what.
Whoever wants to leave, good bye
The EU top brass, the Commission, needs to start making serious concessions toward reform and returning power to national governments and possibly dismantling the euro if it wishes to continue.
The only problem being that the Commission does not have the power to decide any of this, Member States decide in the Council.
It is stupid to leave with 52% of voices from 70%, and decide in this way, for a work done in 40 years, for the next other 40 years. For such a subject, a more reinforced majority is required, like 70% or even more, 75% of the voices for OUT. I don’t think we can decide to go OUT only based on difficult times, and because we are not able to have dialog. EU needs reform and we have do perform them, wisely.
Calin- stupid? Before judging- please check the existing legislated election rules.
Remember the last EU parliament 2014 election? Only a 42.61% turnout! Fair- democratic- representative? The English referendum turnout was >70%! The EU:
If one considers that ~75% are staunchly Pro EU aligned parties (actually a “one party” majority parliament) the other 25% EU are skeptics- maybe anti EU, than only ~32% of the voters indicted a Pro EU stance. In parliament however, the Pro EU support is magnified to 75%. Can one consider this a true reflection of the will of the people & actual EU support & fair?
The EU election should have a special condition attached- like a minimum of 50%-60% turnout to make them legal. One equally can judge any EU election <50% turnout as NOT representative & lacks democratic substance.
The "important EU election" relies on the principle of one man one vote!
Especially with the epic lies of winners being exposed as lies by the winners themselves not 3 days after the referendum.
not once Englands burnt down they won’t,,,
Will more politicians make a fool of themselves? Sure.
You need a more ethical and social EU for people to vote yes . No tax for the working class, a guaranteed minimum income and tax the mega rich. Regulations on non-fair trade imports and corporations who use the exploited labour. And more.
From a democratical point of view this might be difficult if people vote in their countries for governments that do not want a more ethical and social EU (which is the reason why Member States decide in the Council what they decide – Uk people voted Brexit to avoid such more ethical and social EU with immigrants and refugees comming also to the UK )…..
Absolutely. Don’t you think that there might be some “small complaints” here and there ?
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If debating Europe is funded by Brussels does that mean it will disappear in the budget cuts ?
The English hidden agenda is very clear and always has been. The EU must be cleverer than that and push them out by a vote of the member states, don’t wait for them to trigger the Article 50.
gyorgy,you are obviously a bitter,angry individual,you dont like the fact that we in the UK exercised our democratic right to be rid of an undemocratic EU.I suspect you live in a country that is a net recipient of EU funds and you are a bit sore that one of your biggest paymasters has decided that you have to pay your own way.
Sterling is up,the ftse has recovered,countries are already expressing their desire to trade with a newly independant Britain and our Commonwealth friends in New Zealand have offered their best negotiators to help us hammer out trade deals with the rest of the world.
Your predictions of doom are baseless your anger is pathetic and you really need to “man up” or “woman up” whichever the case may be.
Depends on the number of refugee that will still arive in Europe, if the islamist will commit more terror acts and how Brussel will enforce allocation of current and future terrorist in reach of their Jannah to each country, if this will continue more referendum will be hold. If Ue goes to piece will be the fault of Codenhove Kalergi plan and those who insert enemy of civilization in Europe. If the influx of invaders and of terror acts will stop it increasea the chances for no more referenda and no more other exists.
Direct democracy in action- use it!
In principle, only binding referendums should be demanded. It may differ by countries, but usually once it is initiated by the legislature- it will be binding. If it is requested by the electorate by collecting signatures- it is probably considered “advisory” only.
The “official” UK Brexit referendum seems to have been initiated (promised) by the PM (legislator) & is therefore binding. The possible second one- will probably only be considered advisory- a waste & “sour grapes”.
Countries who are ready to consider referendums should make sure to preempt the possibility of it being declared “as advice” only. Also the quorum conditions need to be known beforehand. The EU surely will put pressure on the legislators to ignore it. Go for it!
The Kingdom will stand and prosper still when the EU will be only a footnote in the history books.
Who’s afraid of democracy? The EU, that’s who.
If you’d know the kind of lying and anti-Europeanism that went on you’d know that it has nothing to do with democracy. Much more with history grandomania, superiority complex, xenophobia. It was all to clear anyway.
(Important Disclosure: Words in quotation marks are double entendre and should be read at surface level 1st read)
What greater success do/can you have in life other than understanding the (valid) definition of “Love?”
Simple logic shows that “Love” is always firstly dependent on “Hope” as “choice” because although you may choose to “Love” another (person or thing), there is no valid way of guaranteeing that “Love” will be returned/reciprocal; therefore it is a “blindtrust”/”Hope.”
Selflessly,
Ps. Ultimately, “Love” is the best tangible manifestation of “choice” as “Hope.” Therefore, “Love” is “selfless” and forms a circle because one individual always benefits/puts the other first (doing for others), but does your “heart” agree? _Eternal Optimism
Biggest joke, the Nazis of Poland ever leaving EU, with all the money they receive. What an absurd, naive article.
Some countries are not so proEU, unfortunately that’s a fact, but it was always like that, it’s not a new development. The Poles were always kind of narrow minded market salesmen who are only there to take as much as they can and repell their duties.
I do not think so .
Certo! Questa non è l’Europa unita ma uno strumento di Berlino per affamare gli altri stati europei. Come nella seconda guerra mondiale sono gli inglesi ad opporsi per primi al disegno tedesco di dominare l’Europa! Gli altri seguiranno.
Certainly not.
With the most incompetent leadership of the EU – who betray and sell their continent and countries to the Soros banksters – they have no choice if want to save their civilization…
This will be difficult because Italian laws don’t allow people to decide in fact of international treaties or fiscal matters, on the other side please note that former government chief Mr Monti clearly said that there is too much democracy …
No.
NO we are PROUD to be EU members……..only the Europeans rights wings parties anti EU,financed from putin want it……..but the best solution is to take these EU traitors and put on a trainand send to moscow……….so we shall live free in peace without these cowards that sold theit Countries Soveregnity to putin for 4 money
I think it depends on problems and results… Countries have already seen their and other situations
Dissolution of the EU will benefit several countries(and many people) and they won’t be European ones. Britain triggered this dissolution and I guess they will be joining the beneficiaries in some time.
The Europeans are cleverer than that. The Brits have always been spoilers and underminers with a heavily xenophobic/nationalistic/ supremacist media so no surprise here. There is a major difference between them and us. But we have to be careful. We would have to monitor our (EU) media and get a good grip on what is happening around it.
I don’t think so. I think that they are learning their lessons from UK which is already suffering the consequences. Saying that, Mr Cameron didn’t learn the lesson from Mr Tsipras…
Tsipras, sadly, was and is a traitor to his people and their country. They voted for him because he offered them relief from poverty and austerity. The minute he took his place in Brussels he s–t on all who voted for him and immediately sold out to the Globalists. I wonder how much he got?
The one true man to his word was your economist Yanis Veroufakis. A man the Greeks should be proud of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanis_Varoufakis
Catherine, why don’t you let Greek voters decide who is good for them and who is the traitor and you lounge in your ignorance. They promised different things that they couldn’t deliver, same as your farage. They were the true traitors of the Greek people because they brought more debt with their actions and the plans that they were making were against the people’s wishes (to leave the EU) and were going to result in people losing their bank deposits and having to endure even tougher austerity without the EU support. Come to Greece to see what it is like. Don’t just sit there comfortably posting here your extremist propaganda. Please.
Varoufakis has been kicked out of everywhere, universities, the Greek government, even your Labour party. There are lawsuits pending against him in Greece. This is the kind of man you admire?
My opinion is the percentages of 52% of people saying OUT are not enough representative and strong, to ask UK to leave UE, and the same for any other similar referendum. For such a subject. the minimum number of people ask to leave should be around 70% or even more, 75%, to be validated.
My opinion is the following: 52% of people saying “OUT”, are not enough representative and strong, to ask UK to leave UE, and the same for any other similar referendum. For such a subject. the minimum number of people ask to leave should be around 70% or even more, 75%, to be validated.
Calin yes, every country has a set of election rules, criteria & quorums. If any special conditions are legislated than they are applicable. Seems, no special conditions were applicable to the UK referendum. Just the plain democratic principle- one man one vote!
It is debatable how democratic it is for 17 million people to determine the future of the other 47 million. However, the same problem exists with elections in the rest of Europe – a small part of the population determines the fate of the whole country. Often the largest group of people is actually the one that doesn’t take part in the vote because they are not convinced enough who or what is better to vote for. It is a common problem that needs to be addressed by all European countries, if the democratic principle is to be adhered to.
15/11/2017 John Bruton, former Irish Prime Minister (Taoiseach), has responded to this comment.
Yes Maia, democracy is debatable!
But not to query or cast suspicion after an election, their rules & on a legal process- judged free & fair. That would be pointless. Thanks to our ancestors and a difficult evolutionary process we have “arrived”. People who show deeper interest in democracy- as part of civilized life- can freely debate on an ongoing basis.
Voter numbers eligible and invited: ~47 mio. Only 33.5 mio took advantage of such “invitation” and exercised their “right”- despite adequate marketing . Who’s to blame? Laziness, disinterest, uninformed, uneducated, fed up? Use it or loose it! That’s life!
The most democratic and fair thing to do would be to exclude Scotland and Northern Ireland from the application of Article 50 when it is eventually invoked by the British government. If this cannot be done, then independence referendums should follow because these nations voted overwhelmingly to remain and it would be undemocratic to force on them the decision of the English and the Welsh. This reminds me a lot about the situation in Crimea where there was the same demand – to respect the will of the people who belong to a different nation within a country.
there is hardly ever such a majority whatever election or referendum you consider, really.
No
What you are not understanding is, far more than 52% of the British people voted for out than is revealed. Because our duplicitous government gave foreign countries a vote along with all the ex-pats who had been living outside of our country for decades. They also gave a vote to the full range of Commonwealth visitors to our country, some of them on short stays. And they gave the vote to Gibraltar and Malta. In fact they gave the world a vote on our referendum policy. Which is why the lot of them must be cleared out of their seats and a fresh start to begin again with a new set of people who love our country and its people.
And the Scottish leader, fishy Sturgeon, should be given what she wishes for, all the immigrants in England and Wales should march on Scotland in an exodus and follow the Moses she thinks she is.
The Scots will love it when they find they are being thrown out of their social housing in order to accommodate those entering their country on her call. Just like Merkel, she will get what she is wishing for.
Then, we will see how many of the Scottish people want her as their leader.
The Scots, no matter what she tells you, can’t stand immigrants from anywhere, not even the English, Welsh and Irish.
I do so hope all these immigrants who feel not wanted in the Great Britain make their way, en masse, to Scotland and fill the country with ‘hard working’ wonderful people and watch the 1.5 million Scots largesse when they start lining up at the maternity units begging for their hospitals to help them during their delivery the way they are in England.
Of course! People think it is their ribellion whilst it is a central strategy to make them even poorer and increase taxes
Sure getting slowly into conflict between the nation states (just look at the economic differences) is much better. . .
Merkel can be happy!she was destroying EU with her migrants policy!
Yes, Merkel, her war in Iraq and her Intervention in Libya were damn stupid. So many refugees now.
Oh wait, these operations were from USA, Great Britian and France.
Think about it.
She saved Europe by taking in that million that would have been otherwise left in southern European countries. She took the burden off those balcanic nobodies who now are making the most noise.
If you look at recent Dutch and British referenda campaigns: whew – no highlights of rational decision finding in the interest and to the benefit of the people … If there is more rational discussion, why not. Maybe, a neutral electoral commission could sanction or fine untruths and chevy.
Italy cannot hold referendums on EU treaties, UNFORTUNATELY
@ Rita Ciuchetti
How is that possible Rita? How could your politicians sign up to an organisation of dictators without having a built in get out clause?
Be aware, all you Europeans, the next move by this bunch of unelected dirty dealers, is, they are going to take away your rights to leave or to even have referendum in your own country. In effect, they are going to go for the garotte.
After we have left completely, they are going to twist that rope so tight you will wish you never set eyes on any of them.
They know their game is up.
It is still better then having a populist saying that your country pays 350 million even after National Statistics Office says that it’s only half and then not 1 hour after winning the same populist admitting that the money will not be spent on the Nhs , that was only a “mistake”.
referenda are illegal and not to be held in Belgium, well in this case fortunately, given our context.
Exit for all..
Of course, everybody getting ready.
Anton Nilsson
Let’s hope so and let that eu monstrosity implode!
Bellissimo
Fabulous
EU is new new world order..please understand this is the game of the élite
Dapat
Espérons que pour les prochains Conseils européens les “ordre du jour” seront disponibles en Français et Allemand, peut-être aussi en Italien et Espagnol, et non plus – uniquement – en anglais, qui ne sera plus, si je comprends bien, une langue de travail de l’UE, une fois que M. Cameron aura bien voulu envoyer sa lettre relative à l’art. 50 du Traité de Lisbonne :
“1. Tout État membre peut décider, conformément à ses règles constitutionnelles, de se retirer de l’Union. …..l’une des bonnes nouvelles liés au Brexit !
_____
Hopefully for the next European Council the agenda will be available in French and German, perhaps also in Italian and Spanish, and not – only – in English! As I understand, once Mr Cameron will kindly sent his letter about Art. 50 of the Lisbon Treaty “1. Any Member State may decide, in accordance with its constitutional rules, to withdraw from the Union”; the English will no longer be a “working language” in the EU institutions:-)
One of the good news in connection with the Brexit!
@ Didier Cosse:
What you hope for is unlikely. Your EU is run by the Globalists. They are, in the main, Americans, and they are not going to change the business language from English,to French German or any other than that which they have a grasp of. Even though Americans really don’t speak it. But, they are never ever going to learn another language to converse in. Not one of them are suitable for contracts. They are, unfortunately, inadequate in their make up.
No
It may happen
It will be much better with less Country but the good European one!
Maybe… the problem is EU burocrats act like they don’t understand why this kind of things happen… EU needs a new line of politcs if it wants to remain strong. They can’t just keep asking for money and give nothing or impose certain behaviors to the members about questions that should be discussed ‘in private’… EU should save and protect each member, not ones more than others…everyone should have the same rights and duties… should go back to its primary purpose, keeping peace and balance between the states.
Nobody is interesting in discussions like this anymore … and wasting time on it …. EU is POSITIV ….
https://www.youtube.com/user/POWERSHOOTS/videos
Agreed, all of us from the UK should now leave this forum and they can rename it “Blowing smoke up the EU’s a**e”
You want to say, everything is fine in the EU?
True. European things are Europeans’ business . United we stand divided we fall. I hope we have the brains to see through the hidden English agenda, it was always very obvious.
Yes , Albania and Kosovo want their own referendum to unite . BE has ignored us and wanted to unite with turkey instead of the balkan. We want our right to referendum as other countries does. We dont need BE to be Europian because we have been Europe when most of the BE countries were called Barbarians.
I hope so!!
I don’t think the other EU countries would risk a referendum because they have witnessed first hand what has happened in the UK
What’s that exitism all about? Does anybody here really believe that stopping police, justice, science, union, business, environmental, … cooperation will benefit the people? British government already anounced a tax rise and cuts. Something they always had on their agenda. Now they can easily say: that’s what you wanted, Exiteers!
………..again, more fear-mongering in any form- just doesn’t work anymore! Please consult what Einstein once said.
What did Einstein once say about running dry British taxes and higher costs for government loans due to lost lenders trust? Please enlighten us, oh wise EU-hatejesty.
“Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.”
I am only an apprentice to learn more!
You wouldn’t find a non-arrogant physicist, would you? OK, that was small. ;-)
I guess, we have to focus on small, average and great minds’ one-man-one-vote ideology. Brexit for sure is a disaster for the average and small Brit.
Uncertainty and its consequences are not fear-mongering, just the post-Brexit vote reality. I heard £40 billion or so has been wiped off the stock value of British companies. This loss equals 4 times UK’s annual net EU membership contribution. Can’t you see? The chaos in not in the future any more, it is now. This is not scaremongering, it is reality check.
Maia- ever invested in the stock market or do you understand THAT market? Panic, greed- bulls & bears drive the value of THAT market. It is artificial- all gamble! Times like this, offer the best opportunities to make “money”. Traditional saving has been abolished by the zero interest regime. Why? Want some hints?
Unlikely
the brits quitters were never in EU for real…
just hope some new good pro EU politicians show up and do the fight we all deserve
“just hope some new good pro EU politicians show up”
Unfortunately Brussels is already full of those….. what you really need are some good politicians that are pro the people of Europe
Now that the spoilers are out we’ll make Europe a better and more integrated place.
Reported in the press today 28th June,2016.
The foreign ministers of France and Germany are due to reveal a blueprint to effectively do away with individual member states in what is being described as an “ultimatum”. Under the radical proposals EU countries will lose the right to have their own army, criminal law, taxation system or central bank, with all those powers being transferred to Brussels.
Now, why would you want to be part of that? a “United States of Europe” that’s not Democracy, No Thank You! The E.U has signed its own death warrant. We have been the first to leave but we wont be the last.
Hi Earl,
Reality check: First one Europe later part of the US!
The EU to Become a “U.S. Colony”- a secrete plan by the “Bilderberg”! Believe it or not? You better wake up & do!
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership-ttip-would-abolish-europes-sovereignty-the-eu-would-become-a-us-colony/5417382
“Now, why would you want to be part of that?”
Because I dont’t want to be a part of Russia next, like half of the Ukraine. Do you want?
Sounds just like rational politics to fight tax havens and help deprived regions. But, of course, depends on how they will implement it. Why not getting rid of some generals and soldiers? We have way to much of them in the multiple double structures of each member state.
EU states waste dozen billions for this military machine every year! We urgendly need part of that money for good education, research, innovation support and a better health system! ECSC/EEC/EC/EU was, is and will be above all a very successful project of fighting violence against its citizens.
I really hope, the EU will prosper as it did in the past decades. Therefore, it finally has to tackle the sore jobless catastrophe in southern Europe, and find answers to its legitimacy crisis. So far leaked out plans of more modular cooperations and more democratic liability sound quite promising!
@Defend Europe- Hi there,
Interesting! How does a reasonable, fellow & unbiased European explain the origin of dislike & the fear of/for the Russian Federation- besides the Ukrainian factor?
In size it makes up 38% of Europe, nearly 77% or ~110 mio of its (Slavic) population live in Europe, their culture is European, communism failed, the cold war ended, “perestroika” returned sovereignty to its former Soviet Republics. Bad?
It spends $ 66 billion on its military- in contrast to the $ 618 billion the US alone spends plus the $ 253 billion EU NATO members contribute- which is $ 871 billion in total or 13 x more than Russia. In the end, NATO maintains it FEELS threatened by the Russian MIGHT or MIG’s. Very bad?
Regarding of EU “double structures”: Brussels urges NATO members to up their military budgets to 2% of GDP! Where will the savings or extra funds for education come from- if military spending increases in money terms? Replace generals with bombs & create pensioned or unemployed generals by increasing the social budget? Very, very bad?
US + EU xenophobia? What is it? Any explanation?
http://112.international/ukraine-top-news/nato-in-europe-increases-military-expenses-due-to-russian-aggression-5414.html
@ Pro
Concerning Russians: No question, they have a great European tradition. The problem is not Russians, but, as you know, the Kreml administration that not only occupied Crimea, but also interfered in Akhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, and quite likely in Donbas – all against the will of the souvereign countries there, and reaches out to several questionable movements across Europe. I understand fears of Latvians and Estonians, and can even accept historical concerns of Lithuanians, Polish and Romanians.
BUT (off topic): this 2% NATO goal is really rubbish! NATO could assure better security to Baltic states and central Europeans without any further expenses. That’s a real problem of our democratic national governments… I am quite angry that governments indulged to US pressure here and squander my hard-earned tax-Euros to the benefit of Krauss-Maffei, Thyssen & Co. We should initial a referendum on that instead of nonsense EU-exit referenda, misused by racist nationalists a la Farage!
I think Scotland ,maybe North Ireland
To all immigrants who cannot find a home or get papers to remain in England or Wales, this includes asylum seekers and those who have been living without the ability to gain nationalisation, must, at once, begin on their journey to Scotland. The elected first minister of that country, Nicola Sturgeon, has promised all refugees, from anywhere at all, will be welcomed in her country as, the same as Mrs Merkel, she has said Scotland is desperate for their contribution. You will all be welcome. They need at least 24,000 per year or more.
So, at last, all immigrants can have a home in that country. They will support you in finding homes, jobs, education and health care. It is a beautiful country, just as pretty as England or Wales. Scotland is run under the same laws as in the EU, so it will be easy to get settled.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27679718
As much as the Jews would want to stay in Nazi Germany…Only that your PM is refusing to leave…and so the “immigrants” don’t have to go anywhere…Nor can we repatriate the British ones over here…
We in the Netherlands have had referendums and both times the govt lost, and not buy a small margin, and low and behold they (the govt) being true europhiles ignord the outcome. The netherlands wont forget.
Mudslinging , stereotyping, namecalling, lying, brainwashing , and of course the europhile favorite , propaganda and most of all ,scare mongering, these are the favorites in the europhile toolbox. Very sad.
I cant believe people still believe the crap these guys in brussels dish out every day.
They are sowing the seeds of hate!!
Calling people stupid or racist , or threatening england is not the way to do things and certainly not the type of people i want in charge..
Thier eu is not my eu.
There is no way to fix this other than to ask the people what they want. If they dont they will end up with something a lot worse than what it is now.
Junker ,merkel , rutte and the other clones should show leadership and let the people decide what kind of future they want. The people are the ones paying the bills. The people of europe need to be heard, they need to make a choice, then and only then can europe move forward.
We desperately need democratic referendums .
Its time to do the right thing .
The trouble with a referendum is that people vote on for a host of reasons – in Britain often anger at being disregarded and belittled, as well as left behind economically – and vent their anger with the political elite by rejecting “their” project. It’s a pretty dubious way of determining their views of the merits of an issue, let alone the best course of action.
Yes ,more referendums ,those who wish to be free from further political integration and return to a club of trading nations can then get on with it . Otherwise we will see years of turmoil
Let the people decide .
Let the people decide based on a claim that 350 million is being payed after the National Office for Statistics says flat out that is not true and not 1 hour after winning the populist admitting that bit was a “mistake” and it won’t be spent on the country’s needs.
Hell yesss! :D
Europe must take into account what they are being led by. Merkel, the mad hum, or this little inebriated drunk, who knows how to fiddle his tax payers money into his trousers without facing jail for it.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684394/juncker-brexit-eu-referendum-cameron-to-blame-immigration
Take note the rest of you, Outers, you better move quickly before they shut the door on your option to Leave.
The shaved orangutan will be so much better. An egomaniac adventurer with no professional skills whatsoever.
@ György
thank you! Your contributions as a Pro EU supporter are very valuable, amazing & frank! If you are so confident about your undeniable wealth of professional and balanced Pro EU arguments, please increase your appearance here & add to any slight critical comment about the EU your valuable, top drawer, unemotional Pro EU guidelines- as how to support, enlarge & glorify the EU!
It would definitely enhance the EU’s image & raise the av. intellect level of all Pro EU supporters on this site!
Quo Vadis EU?
If enough Member States hold a referendum, say a dozen, this would allow the EU to keep the UK in the fold once serious changes had been made to remove the most grevious issues such as transparency and efficiency. Brexit would have acted as a catalyst for change.
I doubt it when they see the situation that the UK finds itself in. Another thing that Brexit has brought to the surface is that equally there are people that feel very strongly about the EU and that it is a way of life for them (mostly in the urban centres). The difference in percentage between leave and remain wasn’t really that big…
I think that in the end the UK will be forced to back of due to the internal reaction. People don’t seem prepared to leave and a lot of them seem to have realised the implications after the vote…
Yasmine, I doubt you will find many people who feel strongly in a positive way about the EU, the remain vote was based on the uncertainty/fear of what may happen after Brexit (which is why the city and EU subsidised areas of the UK were clearly remain)
You are probably aware of my opinions on the EU but I will try and give my objective opinion on why remain failed
Throughout the campaign there was never any positive promotion of how the EU was proposing to bring benefits to the people of Europe. The EU was as much, if not more to blame for this then Cameron and though the EU as an institution was not supposed to get directly involved with the referendum they should have briefed Cameron so he could come out with a positive statement and say ” this is what the EU are planning and this is how it will look in future and this is how it will benefit us in the UK”. Instead, all we had before the referendum was threats of how much we stood to suffer outside the EU
The fact no positive future benefits were being promoted then all the people of the UK were left to believe was that the EU was just going to be more of the same but with more political integration….. and that outlook was never going to win the remain vote
Paul, yes, I know many people that feel so strongly about the EU that they cried on the day of the results. Others are contemplating where they can emigrate and others how they can get their hands on an EU passport. Obviously, the campaign didn’t reflect that and let’s be honest the average commoner in any country does not really have the necessary knowledge in order to judge and reach a decision. Most people seem to have based their leave vote on “immigration” and a vague notion that themselves do not understand, sovereignty…
Yasmine, I deliberately included the words “in a positive way”
There is a gulf of difference in feeling strongly in the EU because you believe in what it is doing and the direction it is heading and feeling strongly about the EU because you are afraid of what will happen outside it
I don’t believe a majority based a vote on immigration despite it being (too much imo) of a focus of the leave campaign. There were counties particularly in eastern England which gave a resoundng leave vote (~70%) and yes these counties are severely afffected by immigration (and unless you have visited you really cannot appreciate just how bad it is) but many areas voted on what they saw as local issues e.g. fishing communities which have been decimated by the CFP
The biggest problem in the UK at the moment isn’t the financial issues but the big divide between leave and remain voters and this is down to the attitude of many remainers to accuse anyone who voted leave is a racist xenophobe and to be honest they should just shut up and accept there was more than one reason to vote leave
So, Paul, you are suggesting that you can read people’s mind and that’s how you know they are afraid? Sounds like you are in denial…
No Yasmine, I don’t need to read peoples minds. I suffered all the pre referendum verbage here in the UK and the one thing lacking in the remains side argument was any vision of how much better the EU was going to be in. the future. The leave side was full of negativity about the EU and the remain argument was full of negativity about being outside. Where was any positivity for people to get passionate about the EU? thats why the vote went the way it did in my opinion
They realised that they were dealing with simple minds mostly (cab drivers and painters/decorators) and that’s why they left the grand ideas out of it…that’s not to say that there isn’t that part of the population (mostly in London) that sees more than “immigration” and “sovereignty” in it or that they are not upset about the arrogant and introvert direction that their country is taking. Scots have always had more cultural ties with the continent than England so there you may have genuine fear of having to deal more with the English and less with Europeans…
You never stop trying to bait do you Yasmine? I’ll ignore the fact that you belittle over half the voting population of the UK in claiming they are all taxi drivers or decorators. Maybe you can use your superior intellect and inside knowledge to explain to us mere mortals just exactly what the EU grand plan is ?
It couldn’t be fitted into one post, Paul…That’s why it doesn’t appeal to painters/decorators and taxi drivers…they don’t read…, don’t have the time for it because they are too busy…, they don’t understand the language of the text etc…The EU itself should have made an effort to put its case across.
“The EU itself should have made an effort to put its case across”
Yasmine……. I agree 100%
The only thing I would add is that the EU should have made this effort years ago then we would not be in the situation we are now
Well, I don’t know what they did in the UK but in Greece they were very active with distributing leaflets about their aims and purposes and making the public aware of the different opportunities available to them. But the young people in the UK must be aware of those. Presumably that’s why they were so upset at the results of the referendum. It closes a world of opportunities to them. Obviously, the older generation that have now settled in their lives are not interested in those opportunities but quite the opposite prefer a simpler life without much change or noise…
Hopefully there will be another referendum in the UK although the anti British remarks being made by some of Europes leading lights will certainly harm our chances of holding another.
Hopefully, Britain will remain within the union, so many of us have died for its freedom, however there must be changes for all our sakes. Stop moving the centre from Brussles to Strasburg every few months, scrap free movement except for those who have employment or who are on vacation, stop the gravy train of EU employees, over 8000 of whom apparently earn more than the British Primeminister. Put simply, modernise and change. For all our sake.
All common sense suggestions though I believe none of them will be taken on board by those who see themselves as rulers rather than civil servants
The UK will not have another election. It is Out for good. Suck it up and accept it. Britain voted for its own rights to choose the direction of its country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CALFna4rUA
Hopefully this will lead to a British commitment to Direct Democracy, Swiss style, for our country. It is a must as those in our parliament are totally out of touch with the public they lead.
@ Debating Europe it is urgent my last post must be removed it has given my email address
@ Debating Europe
Again, please remove my above post.
Thank you. DE.
Debating Europe
Why have you deliberately left my post up when you know it has an email address on it? I have now asked you take it down three times.
The scots want a referendum to stay in the eu? What are these people smoking , 90% of europeans want out of the cage. I dont think sturgeon is telling the truth , shes spinning the tale for brussels.
Do the scots realy want to be forcefully assimulated , a province named scotland, run by some europhile with a fat bank account, not allowed to raise the scottish flag , bowing to brussels?? This sturgeon must be getting a bag full to sell this crap.
Or is she the eu archilles heel , to stop the uk from freeing itself. Whatever she is shes obviously not there for scotland.
I Have an idea, we in the netherlands would love to trade places with you in scotland. Before monday please , as our pensions are about to be raided by brussels to the sum of 1400 billion.
Dont be fooled by the europhile scam, its an expensive (titanic) sinking ship, a cage, youll never get out.
After Cameron charged his EU colleagues with the responsibility for Brexit for refusing to exempt Britain from the free circulation of people (which would be incompatible with the Single Market and require a Treaty change), he cannot expect a lenient approach by the EU during the forthcoming Brexit negotiations. Juncker retorted to Cameron that, after criticizing EU decisions, bureaucracy and system during his mandate, he could not expect the British to believe his Bremain campaign. (This was of course a message also for the other EU members, whose governments are constantly sniping at the EU to fend-off criticism against their own governance).
Brexit may well have been inevitable. De Gaulle must be fuming in his tomb for not having been listened to. Now that the Pandora box has been opened, other EU countries, let alone parts of EU countries (Scotland, N. Ireland, Catalonia, Flanders…) may well attempt to follow in time with their own referendums. Leavers cannot expect to be taken back into the EU fold, but if exit negotiations are felt to be unsatisfactory to them, as likely, they may well wish to reconsider their exit, possibly through a new referendum. Those who actually “leave” will lose a convenient “boo-man” such as the EU for problems of national governance. It is actually this attitude that has significantly contributed to current euro skepticism – aggravated by the advocacy of the Freiburg economics of austerity.
The need for a more fundamental wake-up call regards the current tendency to submit to referendum issues that should democratically be dealt with by the elected Parliaments. Referendum is the wrong instrument to decide issues too difficult to understand by the common citizen. It is advocated in particular by minorities who lack the power to obtain satisfaction in parliamentary proceedings. For them, the only hope to defeat the majority in parliament is the referendum instrument, that is, an extra-parliamentary procedure. They call this democracy, although it offers the opportunity to reverse clear parliamentary majorities through direct populism. One could therefore argue that referenda about complex issues, too difficult to understand for the average citizen, are profoundly anti-democratic. Besides, how can one allow a minority in a member state, where referenda are admitted by the constitution, to influence decisions of the EU as such, possibly against the views of all other members? How can one skip over the problem that some EU members do not have in their own constitution the possibility to launch a referendum of their own? By allowing minorities, notably within the governing party, to overrule the majority position in their own parliament, the Brexit referendum is a classical example of anti-democracy and internal fragmentation. The Brexiteers argued with emotion “We want our country back” riding on the additional argument that there is a lack of democracy within the EU. How ironic, isn’t this the other way round? Isn’t it absurd to launch referenda when the outcome is likely to be influenced by issues that cannot be foreseen when they are announced, may have nothing to do with the object of the referendum itself (in this case, EU membership) and may ignore the availability, let alone the sheer existence of alternatives?
What now? The main consequence of Brexit is uncertainty for both Britain and Europe. Britain will have to leave. The exit process itself may make it ungovernable. Its young generations will be frustrated, its old generations lost, countryside interests may be at loggerheads with those of big cities such as London, family relations may be strained I. Great Britain will be confronted, not just with the loss of sovereignty due to the loss of influence on European legislation and the loss of European institutions and activities, but with Scottish and N. Irish temptations to get lose and join the EU. But will the EU itself unravel, or will it try to show that it is alive and kicking by increasing its integration, at least among its core countries, in areas such as internal and external security? Nobody knows. But those who have a passion for Europe United – which the Bremainers sadly lacked – certainly hope so. The departure of the UK (or at least England), might well pave the way for a common defence policy led by France in accord with Germany. This alone would reestablish a certain leadership balance between those two countries, which has suffered form an unhealthy, growing dominance by Germany. I don’t fear an unraveling of the EU because of Brexit, but I dread the prospect of Germany stubbornly sticcking to the austerity of is Freiburg economics in contradiction with the advice of the IMF, the OECD, the European Commission, some of its own economists and common sense, and running a massive current account surplus, whose counterpart inevitabluy are the deficits of many of its partners. Not Brexit but Germany is the real danger for Europe United, but this tile not due to a crazy dictator, but to its ‘virtuous” economic policy.
Potential leavers would do well to reflect whether any EU disfunctionality is related to the disfunctionality of many member state governments and hence whether some of their scapegoating should be reoriented to closer to home. As to the EU institutions, the most disfunctional might be the European Council, which has difficulties in finding statesmen who act in the common European interest ,and acts in secrecy – which is unbecoming to democratic egislators.
Hi Corrado- quite a lengthy comment- thanks!
In essence, the same message (from within the deep EU chambers) comes across- time & again:
Referendums which criticize or endanger the integrity, justification and existence of the EU concept are off limits!
• too complicated for (stupid) uninformed voters to comprehend-
• too lengthy & too complex to be explained by national & EU politicians to common voters-
• only reserved for a small, professional & enlightened circle (Bilderberg) to decide & be driven.
• therefore, referendums have to be PROHIBITED by all means! Any urges in national parliaments have to be squashed at source, never ever to reach, to question & endanger the EU’s existence! That is the EU version of modern democracy- ABOLISH it!
Can a system (and its administration) which finances itself through taxes (from employees, businesses & consumers on an multi national scale) have the cheek to tell a part of its contributors: pay up & shut up? Business, their agents and politicians are sitting side by side in the “Berlaymont” and decide among themselves. THAT is EU democracy! EC capture by corporations- the voters are just a nuisance, have to be kept at bay- by hook and by crook!
Sorry, but that is selling out ALL voters (Pro & Anti) and fraud on old fashioned but still APPLICABLE- one man one vote- democracy! What say you?
The EU must come clean and define “EU-democracy” OPENLY!
“free circulation of people” incorrect, free movement of workers was the founding principle and no-one has any problems with people moving into their country to take up an offer of work
“Britain will have to leave” Incorrect, until article 50 is invoked Britain is not under any legal obligation to leave. The UK referendum was an internal matter for the UK and until the UK invokes article 50 the EU has no say in the matter and should stop whining . This could be up to 2 months away and anything can happen in the mean time
Pro, let’s assume for a minunte that you honestly want to improve EU processes and not only aim to destroy supranational structures. What do you think will be the consequences of Germany or France exiting the EU? Not economically, etc – just in your sense of ‘increasing democracy’? Do you honestly belief that afterwards we will start building a new EU? If yes, will other European states have concurring goals? I think it’s quite likely that the ‘rich’ will say we don’t want the ‘poor’, just as UK did now. That would be enormously antisocial. We are all Europeans no matter what mother we are accidentally born to.
You plead for more modular structures. We have modular structures since the beginning of European cooperation. Maybe you know this webpage desicribing the present state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_integration. We will probably have more of that with several states cooperating more and others less.
But don’t you see the danger that a racist ideology could return to Europe, if we hold these referenda that are not at all established in our countries otherwise? Couldn’t we start with some less complex questions on the national level in order to learn to have less irrational discussion? There was so much irrationality on both sides in recent Brexit- or anti-Ukraine-association referenda campaigns (fears of alienation doom, fears of economical doom, huge exaggeration of EU beaurocracy, amount and use of EU-contributions, …). That was no good example of any decision process to the benefit of the people.
Let’s learn from direct democracy in Switzerland and other states and implement it on national levels first – not doing the second step before the first!
Speaking of rationality: it was rather the poor, rather uneducated, and rather established immigrant UK population that wanted ‘out’ (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis). What do you think was the reason?
“second step before the first!”. Very true! BREXIT was the unexpected but overdue BREAKE IT! Blame the poor EU leadership executives- who remain irresponsible, stubborn, arrogant & angry!
After 1948/1953
The European Union law- accepted
The EEC (trade only)- accepted
Than came the EU (trade + + + +) not acceptable- “BRAKE IT”- in need to be seriously reformed: BRAKEIT or BREAKIT- yes BREXIT!
Has an undeniable “democratic deficit “on many issues: BRAKEIT, FIXIT orr BREAKIT- yes BREXIT.
*NO EU Constitution exists (confirmed by many- refer Mister-Ede)
From here onward- the “stumbling” increased- a “runaway unstoppable train”.
*The Lisbon treaty been masqueraded as an “EU Constitution”- approved by 28 parliaments, but not by the electorate- no referendums were held (only Ireland who nearly scuttled the “charade”. Motto: The EC is only dealing with heads of states ( “Political Reps & lobbyists”) etc & holds voters at “arm length” (dangerous species!). Excuse: the responsibility of national states. (Arrogant & frightened, something may go wrong) Better not risk it! (We know- BREXIT & ……++EXIT)
BREXIT pandemonium caused by the EC leadership- not vox populi- but blamed on them.
EU elections have very poor participation rates (reasons?)- no min. criteria set- are not representative- distorted results- “morally illegal”- disapproved by >50%! FAILIT
EC- EP- capture by corporatism. Lobbyists & Agents have “corrupt & intimate relationships” with EU influential’s- not transparent (e.g. TTIP) Result: total “state capture- voters ignored & excluded”! US & EU CAPITAL in cahoots. The hate democracy. Yes, Europe is advanced- we can afford & need direct democracy!
Shameful EU youth unemployment (10-50%)- despite all the “sweet pc talks & programs”. 3rd world countries (Africa) report much lower unemployment rates than the EU! %! Shame on the corporate captured EU! Erasmus is political brainwash, financed by us voters! Marketed as “financed by the glorious EU”- love us please!
Take from Peter- we politicians eat first, than we feed Paul- see how great we are- please join us in that feast!
Corporations are taxpayers also- represented by individuals and should have a voice. Not undue influence. Corporations can be represented “transparently” in parliament- next to all individuals. “Separation” of political & corporate powers- similar to church & state. First step: fix the democratic & trust deficit first: Legality, Transparency & Accountability! BRAKEIT, FIXITor BREAKIT- yes BREXIT!
Partially questionable analysis. In my eyes, the “irresponsible, stubborn, arrogant & angry” is rather the so called ‘populists’ than the democratically elected EU leadership.
EU still rather is an intergovernmental cooperation of most European democracies. Not yet a state with acceptance for a common constitution. This may continue until we don’t have europe-wide discussions to form a common res publica. But we haven’t reached that yet. People like you and me and many other ‘voces populi’ are pushing in that direction. We should keep up pressure.
I share your analysis that British ‘pandaemonium’ is rather a result of Cameron’s gambling and also Corbyn’s not so sincere argumentation, not that of British voters. I think that all EU democrats (including Juncker) accept the British vote. It is the British elites that don’t declare the exit and seem to not know how to precede, not the EU leadership.
I also hold that ‘capturing’ by lobbyists problematic, not because I am totally against lobbyism (it can make political decisions more reasonable as there as often a lack of knowledge), but because it is rather applied by those corporations and institutions that can afford it. Then decisions become distorted. That’s the problem. In Brussels as in Paris/Berlin/Rome/London/etc. No specialty of the EU! Your proposal of handling it similar to laizist countries with respect to the church is very constructive in my view!
For TTIP etc we should keep up pressure as well. Did you know that Lisbon treaty has the Citizens Initiative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiative)?
Youth unemployment is really shameful! We need more efforts against it. But are first place rather national tasks and can only be supported by the EU structure funds.
Exchange programmes are a great idea. Not at all brainwash, but rather eye openers. We need much more of that in order to learn how other European societies work and to connect with other Europeans. It should be broadened to not only have exchanges for future elites, though!
Legality, Transparency & Accountability is the EU-reform proactive goal. I am convinced we won’t approach it by dissolving the EU, only by developing it!
@ Paul X
It seems our unelectable new politically correct PM, Theresa May, has declared she will not be invoking Article 50 until March next year. Also, that she will be keeping us within the jurisdiction of the ECHR. Very clever of them to force us back under the rule of the EU law on immigration. This knowing the vote was OUT because we don’t want more starving coming in to create havoc here. She goes on to tell us, we will not be having a general election either and like Brown, she is to remain leader until 2020. This is because she knows, again like Brown, she is unelectable here. No matter who is the Labour leader she is too scared to take a chance. Very telling is that. For God’s sake she is even afraid on a possible Eagle leadership of the other side. She is a loser in her present job and will take that inability to make decisions and be unfit for purpose with her. These woman without any talent they shove at us, will jump on any cloud offered. The only merit she has, against her fellow female politicians is, she doesn’t quite look as of she was taken from the ragged casting line of Oliver Twist.
What a disgrace this is. What an example to our nation of not having a plan B or even a credible candidate lined up as leader should this vote not go their way. It is insanity. All these leeches are in a panic, as the voters have rumbled their game. Not only that, their American advisers lies aren’t working the way they used to.
A bit like the wife beater finally finding himself properly locked out of the house and into a prison cell after years of getting away with torture. Worse for them, the markets are on course and the pound is rising.
They tried to fix the election giving thousands of ex pats the vote, even though they had lived in others countries for decades. Gave the vote to Commonwealth citizens, along with Ireland, Malta and Gibraltar. Still didn’t succeed did it. Shows just how much the people have woken up to this charade of a union called EU.
They knocked out Boris Johnson by a coup, as he may just have made the top call and seriously changed the status of the Tories. Thus reducing the electorate to a bunch of unknowns except, Gove and Fox, both intensely disliked. Fox with his Werrity arms deals and then Gove, who was hated in Education. This banking girl they have piscked up, Andrea someone, is in the establishment pocket in her role as banking and hedge fund dealer. What a shower. What a humiliation. They really must get rid of their favoured yanks.
@ Peter:
First of all you already know the Guardian pretends to be left wing and backing the Labour party here in the UK. Only problem is the Labour Party they back is filled with Blairites. Blair is one of the main back room boys running the show as I write and he sold out to Capitalism at Fettis School, when very young. He should never have been allowed near any political party. He is manic and the kill is his main objective. He earns big money from it. So, what we have on that side of the House now is a bunch of champagne socialist. Wouldn’t know their arse from their head or what a hard days work down the mine is. They feed off the poor by pretending they will change things for the better for those who get caught up with them. Which is why the establishment is so afraid of the Corbyn guy and his millions of backers in real communities. He, appears at present, to be incorruptible and that causes panic. As it did with Tsipras. The fight to rid us of Corbyn is tragic for us all. As he represents a true opposition and he may just sway the public to open their eyes. Unforgivable of him.
And your little map is, if you only but knew it, showing all the yellow areas as that part of the UK is filled to the brim with immigrants. Except Scotland, who are simply filled with poverty stricken imbeciles who feel the SNP is for the working class. Even whilst they call for thousands of immigrants a year to enter their tiny part of the UK. Glasgow already bowled over by the weight of them. The Scots haven’t yet realised their SNP are also greedy champagne socialists who never vote down government austerity policies since taking office. Humans are so strange, they are, without doubt, afraid to look at the reality of any situation and believe keeping their head deeply in the sand will make it all go away. Facing up to betrayal is not easy. It feels really bad.
In London, the areas that are wealthy are filled to the brim with third world immigrants, those who are either in social housing and on welfare, or the rich from Africa and India who have bought up property at super hiked up prices for investment. They vote to stay because the EU is a Globalist governed colony which will see those wealthy Aid fiddlers are able to keep their money well situated in off shore havens and not try to regulate the US system of no tax on the rich or their corporations.
The poor in those areas are, as I wrote, immigrants who want to remain, as that means the door stays open for Grandma, Uncle Mbutoo and all those children they claim are theirs. That is until a DNA test is taken. Anyone else still waiting to get onto the British free ride with ten kids in tow game will be able to continue and grow under Merkel and her gangers. .
The blue areas are where the indigenous people have had to flee from their traditional home towns and cities. In their millions they have left as fast as they could manage to get the cash together to do it. As can be proven by the majority vote being from those areas. Bigger numbers.
The other part you have wrong, is, those who voted out in the majority are the middle class. It is those who have suffered most under this austerity and betrayal of their culture and lifestyle. The poor having always been poor are only worried about how their communities have deteriorated under the weight of mass migration from the third world. Undermining their social cohesion and safety. The talk we here on the news about racism does not cover the massive racism of those who have entered the country and want to change it to something inherited from the middle ages. You cannot go to their areas if you want to remain fit. Just as in Paris.
The vote for out was firstly, above all other matters, because of the mass influx of alien cultures taking away what little the poor had left. Making upward mobility impossible for indigenous children.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1530877/White-flight-plus-immigration-always-add-up-to-segregation.html
And here is more formal information.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/
@ Catherine:
We have the same problem with social democrats in Germany since Schroeder. Do you remember that ‘Schroeder-Blair paper that started shifting social democracy in Europe towards ‘easing tax burden for the rich in order to produce jobs and growth’? In Germany, they lowered income taxes for the rich more than any conservative government before and they cut social benefits. That’s why the twice now formed a coalition with market radical ‘conservatives’ of Merkel… Very sad. There is the quite old saying ‘Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!’ (‘Who betrayed us? Social democrats!’ – only rhymes in German).
I did not give the Guardian-link because of the map, but because of the demographics below it. Take a look. It really is rather low-income, low-level education, rural, older and non-UK-born people that voted ‘leave’.
No-go zones or parallel societies are not acceptable. That has rather few to do with the EU, but with local council policy and financial resources of police, justice, street workers, schools, etc. responsible for those quarters. We have to pressure politics more to tackle crime and non-Western attitudes in our ‘Molenbeeks’. I think it’s not impossible to make progresses here.
I think that all people in Europe should have a referendum to cast their vote. When Britain signed up they signed up to a common market, not a political or legal union. All countries should have power over their own affairs.
European cooperation was always a political project to implement peace on the war continent by progressing integration. Read some texts of Schuman or Monet etc. from the 1950ies. The British of 1975 knew that when holding their referendum. Today, you are told that they didn’t know. Another lie of the Brexit-Pinocchios.
At this moment there are no compelling arguments in favour of the EU, as the EU fails to perform it’s basic tasks: keeping our continent safe and economically stable. As the EU floods us with migrants, economic crises and the threat of war on our borders. The EU is not the USA and the European attempt to destroy our nations by flooding them with anti-western migrants has failed.
And there is currently no way for people to show their discontent. Of course they would vote to leave .
The ironic thing is the EU is failing because politicians themselves have made the EU incompetent by design, as they had no faith in the EU when they created it.
The only way the EU can save itself is to reform. Reform before a referendum can happen. Things that could bring faith back into the EU are:
– Accept critical journalists into the EU and answer their critical questions, so critical voices are also heard, an answer is formulated and politicians can become accountable again. The only way to get involved with people is through the media. And that doesn’t happen now. In fact, for most Europeans the EU is a meaningless entity that’s far from their bed, because EU politicians and journalists are too busy circlejerking to actually reach out.
– Get rid of the European Commission. Stop with the national politics in the EU. Why on earth are prime ministers and presidents deciding what happens in the EU? They are shackling the effectiveness of the EU and are thus destroying the EU.
– Let people vote for European parties that can be in control. Turn the EU into a proper democracy. Currently everyone knows their national politicians, but European politicians are pretty much unknown.
Then people have an European alternative to let themselves be heard on an European level.
The EU needs to meddle less in national affairs, while at the same time become more effective in global affairs.
Here in the Netherlands politicians are doing their best to quickly cement our position in the EU. Now they are quickly letting our pensions fall under European regulations in hope it becomes economically unviable to leave. Do you really think this would stop people? This is beyond silly, because people perceive this as an attack on them. And the Ukraine referendum is still being ignored by power hungry politicians who think more is better. If they cared about European stability they wouldn’t do this. And if a referendum would occur after the elections next year these facts will certainly be held against the EU.
And if the Netherlands leaves it’s the end of the EU.
@ Peter.
Here is a link you may have missed.
It suggests that GB was never a member of the EEC-EU as Heath, the PM at the time, illegally by passed the citizens permission.
We must invoke Article 50 immediately. And, as such, will at once be free of any EU rule. No need to string this out.
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html
And that is that!
Quod erat demonstrandum
@ Catherine
That Heath/Wilson story is ludicrous, esp. the ‘stay’ lament of the 1975 referendum and the Charlemagne prize bribe claim. Free after Pippi Longstocking song: I’m making the world, widdle, widdle wid, how I like it? In that sense you could also say there is no need of declaring Art. 50 as the souvereign has spoken in the referendum. Legally, the referendum is not binding as far as I heard. But probably no politician will dare to ignore it which is a good think with respect to democracy. I am no British constitutional lawyer, but as it seems, legally binding international commitments of transfering souvereignty as happened by UN, NATO etc memberships need a parliamentary vote, not a referendum.
With Art. 50 declaration you’re right – it would be better for all if the declaration would come as soon as possible. That’s a new poker play of British politicians …
.
Undoubtedly, people now see the EU for what it is & they reject it.
vive la liberté
Undoubtedly, British EU and Dutch anti-Ukraine-association referendums show how deception-and-fear campaigns prevail!
Vive l’Aufklärung!
@ Peter
I think you may find our House of Lords does not consider the Heath/Wilson betrayal ludicrous at all. It is being considered as we write.
Heath went against British law and because it was covered up or disregarded for years does not invalidate fact.
yes, and they should! its a good thing for eu to get rid of countries with nationalistic and conflict-oriented political goals.
eu without uk, poland and hungary is a better place.
And many more to come :D
Exit referenda are perfect distractions from the real smut we are facing, e.g., empowerment of multinationals against governments by TTIP and CETA courts. EU brings democratic souvereignty against American, Chinese, etc corporate interests, single country deals will undermine it. The British will figure out in a few years when they will have their own US-UK agreement…
Unfortunately, Great Britain has their own deal with the US and have had since WWII. Meaning, they jump to the lunatic Pentagon policies at the drop of a hat. As does the EU.
Don’t kid yourself otherwise.
Many EU state governments didn’t follow the Pentagon in recent Iraq and Libya wars.
look at putin tells everyone exactly who created isis
1. where is the truth?
what opinion have the parts?
what opinion have the parts implicated in the conflicts?
2. it s look like u.s. and russia, have any more silent common understandings?
when was the issue of ukraine i had the feeling that russia has fallen scapegoat of the tacit understanding (in terms of conflicts and arms sales, ……….) that thay was haved with u.s.a and practical u.s.a.. he turned his back on russia’s tacit understanding
u.s.a. practicaly becoming more powerful compared with russia with a market stronger in e.u., ………., influence, ……….
3. the next step was u.k.
a weakening of the u.k. and strengthening, reinforcement at the u.s.a?
a weakening’s of the e.u. and strengthening, reinforcement at the u.s.a?
which is the u.e. interest?
which is the u.s.a. interest?
which is the russia’s interest?
which is the u.k. interest?
which is the ……………….. interest?
which are the next steps on your strategy?
@ Peter
Did they not? Then why are masses of people rushing to Europe to claim residence as refugees, rather than going to the vast land mass of States called the USA? And why, if Europe didn’t collude in this treachery, was Blair one of their favourite people and still is, as he is advising them on how to adjust antisemitism.
However, did these countries collude in the wars you mention? If not, did they speak out against them? Did they refer to the UN on their views on what was taking place at the time or before it began? Have they spoken up about the illegality of the collusion between Tony Blair and GW Bush to instigate either of these wars illegally? Have they since spoken up regarding the Chilcot report and the lies revealed in the conclusions? Are they pressing for Blair and Bush to face a war crimes trial in the Hague for the slaughter of millions in those countries? If not, why not? To remain silent is to sanction an act, therefore suggests collusion in its perpetration.
They did speak out in the UN Security Council before these wars. You may look up http://www.un.org/press/en/2003/sc7658.doc.htm or http://www.un.org/press/en/2011/sc10200.doc.htm for e.g. the German position or e.g. German foreign minister Fischer’s famous ‘I am not convinced’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1421634/I-am-not-convinced-Fischer-tells-Rumsfeld.html.
I think you understand that present German and French politicians that support Syria war against international law won’t speak out against their closest allies in London and Washington …
i think, therefor i am, i, like you exist, exercise caution this world is full of trickery….
if England 50/50, Scotland 60/40, northern Ireland 50/50, perhaps all eu countries should have one big vote together on the eu, i wonder the whole outcome then?
Ontus
I agree with you. That would consolidate the pact one way or another. The peoples of Europe need stability and a political consensus. Additionally, the business world must be prepared to move forward in unity with the citizens of each country on united terms. One way or another.
More countries should! And more should leave.
you think therefor you both are! you exist like me, but have we exercised caution? do we know the bigger picture? are we intellectually designed to know whats going on? is the UK in a third world war, without bullets being fired? or perhaps all of Europe is? or has been! or perhaps concurred! whos behind this really? money? power? single nation?, do you both think that the untrained mind can make these changes for all the common people like us, maybe its time for a new party the Angelo Saxon party? a party to unite!
Will more EU countries hold referendums? Sounds like it.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/687410/Germany-EU-referendum-Merkel
And
https://www.rt.com/news/271279-austria-petition-eu-exit/
Then it’s a good few
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682339/Brexit-spreads-across-Europe-Italy-France-Holland-Denmark-all-call-for-referendums
Listening to the EU debate I’ve just heard from Guy Verhofstadt and the rhetoric coming from this person gives me hope that leaving the EU is a good idea. Linking the freedom of movement to trade is probably going to rip the European state apart.
Eu stinks. Uk, Cyprus , Spain , Greece quit first
just imagine for a moment that England votes to leave Europe, they voted its done, regardless of right or wrong, the people have spoken, yes it was close but the outcome is just. just imagine for a moment other nations vote leave…and the EU collapses, tell me if scotland re-votes and leaves to join the EU, what then if it collapses? would they have another vote to re-join!!! and whos paying for this, good old england out the kindest of its hearts yet again, we listen to the bullshit of the past so many times, about the wrong doings by forefathers, which we are made responsible for and held for as a nation, the past has lapsed, are forefathers are dead, they were responsible not us, and by law we are not accountable…so whats really behind all this… we and all of Europe, its boarders are open to walk through, and terrorists can attack from all sides, again France is targeted, so we are only as strong as our boarders, proving the euopean control is wrong
the more the better imho, until only those countries who really want to push the EU project into the federation stage remain; honestly as it’s now the EU is ungovernable look at the ECB case for example, we have a central bank that cannot enact the necessary steps to bring us out of that crisis (like the FED and Japs central bank do) because each country has veto power on it (without talking about how ridiculous that when the ecb take a decision and Germany High court need to give it green light).
How a continent of 500+ million of peoples, the second market in the world could keep going like that?
why in today’s democratic system , those that control Brussels are not voted in by the people, why are all the nations being misled, why in today’s society in all nations are our youth not working, that they cant cope with life pressure,why are the youth talent less in lifes circles, the meaning of strong values disappearing and not being supported, being led by the top 5% who have not had hardship as so many countries suffer in their quake, why do we as the EU have homelessness, unemployment,poverty, children in education until they are in their middle 20s if they are the lucky ones, England treat their cares as shit, offer no hope but poverty to those whom have loved ones and have been married for years when there world collapses to illness such as m/s and the like, there are so many to choose, so when the carers give up the expectance they have been used too, to care, and save England 50 billion pounds, England repays them with bedroom tax ( even though they dont have any disabled units to move into) and capping, gives them no hope and condemns them to a life of forms, even if the illness is indefinitely, good old george osboune, he must be so proud of himself, but they say in lifes circles what comes around goes around, so not all of the people of england gets a fair deal
EU collapse is impossible to prevent but we can punish those responsible for our tragedy and they are : “Arabs, Germans and church” . We should import oil and gas only from Russia , Norway , Canada and US . There is plenty of oil in Russia , Norway , Canada and US , that is enough until we have big percentage electric cars on our roads. After EU collapse we can simple import solar panels and electric cars from US , Japan and China . The tariffs on Chinese made solar panels range from 100% to 110% , we can have it 0% and 0% on electric cars . We don’t need Germany , we are going to boycott Germany until they remove Anghela and STOP financing their church : Chinese cars are superior to German cars and we don’t need Arab oil, PLEASE cancel your church membership and register as atheist , possible we can create new EU but only after we have destroyed church and made an END for Arab immigration , Germans manufacture dirty and expensive garbage compared to this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waiE1eso0LE
You could save the EU : EU should order all Chinese overproduction and give it for free to farmers. EU should support China because that is the best thing ever they could do and that is to STOP fossil fuels . The tariffs on Chinese made solar panels range from 100% to 110% , we can have it 0% and 0% on electric cars . 100% solar, wind and hydro is very cheap and clean option for the EU. Price for solar panels is under 0,5 Euro/Watt . EU could simple order 2000 gigawatt solar panels for 1000 billion Euro . EU should give for free 10 to 50 kW of solar panels to all EU citizens ( 10 – 500 kW to farmers) willing to install it by themselves . They should pay off those panels with electricity they don’t use also with electricity they send back to the grid. When we have energy we don’t need we should produce hydrogen and store it . http://www.ejinsight.com/20160706-when-will-chinas-solar-power-firms-see-light-at-end-of-tunnel/
To install it like this is simple and cheap , it is like IKEA furniture : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzar3xqCb6k
Referendum: It seems to be contagious disease. Be careful.
Referendum: It seems to be contagious disease. Be careful.
We can only hope. True democracy.
We can only hope. True democracy.
.
Without doubt yes, there are 3 votes in October and National elections in Germany & France soon after which while not on whether to leave the EU or not will be a massive test for the European experiment.
It is only a matter of time before the next Nation leaves, my money is on France at the moment.
Probably, yes
No other EU country wants to have a referendum
I hope so. Mine needs to get out as soon as possible.
Where is the democracy in your island.?
You have to think about the England crimes all around the planet..
…and starting from Lybia
….and so on.
..you just were a
….disgrace.
Not of course no..
…we don’t need another referendum
that’s because I truly trust on the EU more than the Brits and the Yankee…they just came in with negatives notes .
Go with your boyfriend Yankee for from where you
belongs.
In my opinion a referendum is appropriate when a really serious problem comes out, in other way it will cause chaos and conflict between people. A referendum requires strong and smart politicians with the ability to make things become better.
As the political establishment is preoccupied with increasing own money and influence, democratically decisions became more and more a carpet deal. Therefore are referendums more necessary, than the establishment is feeling alright about.
German occupation only with referendums will end, or a leader who will fight against the european soviet union
If the EU tries to ignore the lesson of Brexit;
If the EU tries to distract attention to the Portuguese debt;
If the EU continues being non-democratic to the point of immolating Greece;
Then there will be more referendums, yes!
If the EU tries to ignore the serious Brexit lesson;
If the EU tries to distract the general attention to minor problems such as the Portuguese debt to the Troika;
If the EU continues being non-democratic to the point of immolating countries such as Greece;
Then there will be more referendums, yes!
There should be more referendums!
I don’t think that we need another referendum!! That wich EU needs is original leaders.
Sure all nationalists want a referendum…..and all true Europeans want an EU-passport! ;)
Europe is a playground! If EU dissolves, somebody else will fill the space! Russia. Or USA. Or the arabs…
Hell yes! :D
No… because they cannot afford to!!!
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Hope so
https://www.facebook.com/videokarikatura/videos/785259574910481/
With all the elections coming up in EU countries , and the low ratings of EU leaders , there will be massive political change in the EU . If nothing is done , there could be civil unrest in many countries , due to excessive unnecessary migration and lack of integration , as has been indicated by several heads of intelligence service across the EU
Yes.
Nope… the other politicians aren’t stupid and arrogant, they think, they listen to opinions from the whole world and take the interest of their peoples and countries at heart before the interest of Murdoch and BP…. wonder what’ll happen to all those Nissan workers after that Japanese letter….
SAVE the EU . EU is the best option we had in our history . In order to survive the EU should fight for EU citizens , not for interests of some groups and for Arabs and their oil export. If the EU don’t work for EU citizens they are going to vote to exit like British did . For some reasons the EU is getting mad house for the last 5 Years . Many English told me that EU democracy is not working , I could find out that religious spiders financed by energy lobby entered European Parliament . I tried to find out how it works and I could find out that the EU has bad problem with making really strange decisions , just one really dirty , EU has not oil fields and the EU import over 50% of dirty energy but electric car manufacturing and solar panels production are big in the US , China and Japan , strange : “The tariffs on Chinese made solar panels range from 100% to 110% , we should have it 0% and 0% on electric cars.”
The EU should make clear decisions and solve some problems:
1. Lobbying should be declared illegal and we should destroy lobby groups . People elected for European Parliament are elected and paid by EU citizens , they should work for EU citizens and NOT for business and Arabs. They are well paid and if they don’t like it they can find a new work. The standard monthly payment for all MEPs is 7,957 euros (£6,537). MEPs also get a flat-rate monthly allowance of 4,299 euros to cover office expenses, such as office rent, phone bills and computer equipment. A separate annual travel allowance – 4,243 euros maximum – covers official trips to other destinations.MEPs also get a daily subsistence allowance – now 304 euros – for attendance at parliamentary sessions. https://lobbyfacts.eu/reports/lobby-costs/all?page=2
2. Refugees : EU refugee politics is scam. Muslim refugees only represent Muslim ambition in the EU . Muslim dream to make the EU to Muslim country. Muslims entering the EU are NOT refugees, refugees are people thet move away from fighting for some time until they stop fighting , after they go back home . Arabs entering the EU are NOT refugees but young man and they can bring their family after some time . They want to make the EU to Muslim country . The EU is going to collapse because people like myself don’t want to become minority in Muslim country .
3. Energy security : EU should STOP all oil and gas imports from Arab countries to destroy their ambitions . The EU shouls only import oil and gas from Norway , Russia , Canada and US .
100% wind , solar and hydro is very simple and cheap to achieve.
NOTHING is more simple and cheaper for the EU than to create energy security but the EU is barrier to it. I could do it , I could solve energy supply for the EU for the next 50 Years for less money then the EU spend under 5 Years for import of dirty energy . HOW ? The tariffs on Chinese made solar panels range from 100% to 110% , we should have it 0% and 0% on electric cars . Remove all tariffs on Chinese made solar panels and help EU manufacturing with example 0,2 Euro/Watt . 100% solar, wind and hydro is very cheap and clean option for the EU. Price for solar panels is under 0,5 Euro/Watt . EU could simple order 2000 gigawatt solar panels for 1000 billion Euro . EU should give for free 10 to 50 kW of solar panels to all EU citizens ( 10 – 500 kW to farmers) willing to install it by themselves . They should pay off those panels with electricity they don’t use also with electricity they send back to the grid. To install it like this is simple and cheap , it is like IKEA furniture : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z04p6-zK5-o
When we have energy we don’t need we should produce hydrogen and store it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNHwi6IryNI
Considering the Brexit disaster i would say no.
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Of course it is unravelling, it was an attempt to solve the problems of the 1930’s with a plan made in the 1950’s which turned into the very dogma driven lunacy it was meant to stop.
Vive la Liberte !
They should. EU is a farse! An antidemocratic farse.
The end of EU will result in a economy crysis on it’s own! Borders will be restored thus border taxes and protectionism. Does any1 think his state can survive amongst: tax heavens, investor- hungry statets and global competiton without any fair-trade(TTIP for example)?
TTIP is wery good challenge, I like chellenges.
I hope Romania soon..u desyroyed our industry, u are cutting our trees destroy our nature after we lived for over 2000 years without destroying it. Thanks EU for all the not equal sallaries but same prices like in west! This is what happened after joining EU
Very possibly. But are any of them stupid enough to act on them until they see what the consequences are for the UK? I doubt it.
No way they know the eu is the best way forward
http://eblanademocraticmove.blogspot.ie/2016/09/europe-should-stop-bickering-and-start.html
European governments are too corrupt to leave the EU….the mother of all corrupcion.
Hell yes!
We are not allowed. Last time we wanted to make referendum about extending period of time for foreigners to buy our land. And guess what? Government threw away literally millions of Euros for “anti campaign”, encouraging people to boycott. Referendum didn’t happened.
And in Lithuania it’s “unconstitutional” even to discuss such ideas as leaving EU or NATO, or questioning Eu decisions.
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Of course they will, its just a matter of time. The days of the antidemocratic EU are numbered.
The referendum is the most democratic way to ask the citizens about their opinion. If the leaders of the EU don’t want to see referendums on certain issues, but the citizens want to have them, the leaders should make reforms on these issues. If they don’t make them, the dissatisfaction continues to increase. :/
Hopefully yes, they will! This is the essence of democracy and I wonder why you are so afraid of it!
If the EU continues to be ruled by politicians with their heads firmly stuck in the muddy sand, then the answer is an “absolutely YES!”
If the EU continues to be “ruled” by politicians with their heads firmly stuck in the muddy sand, then the answer is an “absolutely YES!”
The EU needs to do less but those things that it does should be done better. Focus on the subjects that europeans believe are the highest priority, make sure that you then have the power to decide at european level and prove that you can do it. Elect a european president by direct elections. And reduce the cost of europe. Stop the useless waste and the expensive bureaucracy that spends 7 years to introduce parental leave in all countries or a trade agreement with canada that can be blocked by the states. Focus and reorganise to be more powerful in what you focus on. Better to do few things good than to make everybody upset with silly legislation on all kind of things that are not the priority or for which you do not have the power.
I hope mine can be the next to hold a referendum and exit the EU.
Look carefully, which countries hold referendums? Greece, Britain, Italy. Most of them have severe internal problems to solve. Referendums reproduce insecurity and they are a very nice way for governments to pass their responsibility to people. I do not agree that referendums express democrasy. No, they express inability of our governments to take up their responsibilities and make decisions. All countries who held referendums have huge debts. Is this occasional? Not really
unlikely. Trying to solve internal problems by blaming external factors can be seen for what it is – political failure. The same generation of failed polticians are there after the referendum as much as they are there before a vote. It surely much better to look more closely at ones own house. Sort that out and the demand for separation is no longer the big issue.
More and more. It`s a strange concept to ask the people and it`s called democracy.
One of the great failures of the EU was the expansion into eastern European countries and to include the same free movement of peoples to all these weaker countries.
This has proven bad for both the weaker and stronger countries. The stronger countries dealing with a continues large flow of unregulated immigration and the weaker countries continuously losing significant numbers of their populations, weakening their economy and ability to develop.
If the EU were to include weaker countries, which in my opinion it shouldn’t have, there should of been a tier system whereby free movement of peoples can only exist for countries of similar GDP per capita. Those coming from countries with lower GDP per capita should of had to go through a visa process where the immigration could have been regulated.
If the EU wishes to avoid a brake up, they will need to significantly reform. But something tells me there will be at least another country leave before they come to their senses and accept their ideology is not going to work (at least not for a very long period in history) and that there needs to be radical reform to keep the project together.
They should, even if just to spite that bastard Juncker. If something is threatened by popular vote, then it must be dismantled by popular vote
works well in bulgaria, isnt it?
What do you mean?
Will – don’t know. Should they – definitely yes!
Most people have no damn clue about things so I would say they shouldn’t vote. But as a democrat I would neeeever take away their right to sign their own death sentence, especially if incompetent politicians need to get away from a difficult position :)
Fear and Uncertainty – these are the reasons behind the referendums. Germany is disgusting and too much dangerous (again) with it’s politics of smashing the other countries of the EU. Germany’s politics anti-Rome Treaty oblige the other EU countries find out another way – and the refrendums seem to be such.
probably yes…
EU rulers should have thought of that, when they start giving more importance to finance than to people
i think then we should have a debate about how EU should operate or about its main prioroty rather than a membership.. as that vote would dominate by anger.. and put effect of next generation rather than on ours..
Not all European countries can have referendums on the EU.
the problem it woulr be protest vote regatdless of consequences..
Yes
We have lost our composure as EU citizens. Focusing on the Union ‘s flaws or taking our frustrations out on it while at the same time unfortunately forgetting what the EU has really achieved is taking us straight back to the 30s.
Some nations mistake the need to put their house in order as deterioration. It ‘s their own politicians’ fault that they can not manage large scale reforms and instead cut and slash around the problem. Should Europe be linient on these countries and let them remain in the club without reform? That is the question. The EU is a union of principles top of all.
EU is not supposed to be a club but a family/union.There is a difference.And some reforms have to do with the EURO, which is the Eurozone, not the EU. We should see better how US works, there you do not see North Carolina going against South Carolina because there is one common government for all, handling one common cash register
I hope so.
If they are stupid enough they will, and Americans will benefit as usual.
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You think democracy is ‘stupid’ ?
Of course.
Democracy is taking resolutions under the voice of people.
http://eblanademocraticmove.blogspot.ie/2017/01/europeans-are-shooting-themselves-in.html Populism. When Europeans are shooting themselves on the foot. Something that needs to be understood, when voting in referendums.
Europeans are shooting themselves in the foot by voting for the parties that are members of PES, ALDE and EPP.
Lets hope so! Or you are afraid of direct democracy?!
No, cause it’s illegal in Lithuania to make referendum that would question EU or NATO…
nope: Marine Le Pen and Wilders will both lose the election
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Of course they will, its just a matter of time before other Nations reject the outdated EU ideology.
It may have the opposite effect! The other countries will join hands, will strengthen the EU and Britain will be isolated in Europe. How about that?
Irene Rosa
Did you seriously just say they will ‘join hands’ ?! … lol
Whatever you say comrade, whatever you say lol
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/11/reuters-america-update-1-juncker-says-britain-may-divide-eu-over-brexit-talks.html
I HOPE YESS
the more you talk about it…. why don’t you ask people instead what improvements they would like to see within Europe ?!!
More member countries of the EU should indeed hold EU referendums on whether to stay or not. France, Spain, Italy, Greece. We don’t need to be in a political union with other countries in order to trade with them.
Hopefully…