In 2014, Scotland voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. The result was 55.3% in favour of maintaining the Union, on an unprecedented turnout of 84.6%. But would the referendum have succeeded by such a margin if voters knew that sticking with the UK meant abandoning the EU?
Polling suggests that Scotland is significantly more pro-EU than the rest of the UK. So, what happens if a majority of Scots back “Remain” in the upcoming EU membership referendum in June, while a majority of English voters plump for “Leave”?
Have you already made your mind up which way to vote? Do YOU think Britain should leave the European Union? Let us know what you think in the poll below:
We had a comment from Barbara, who thinks that if the UK votes “Leave”, then “Scotland will have another referendum and will separate this time”.
To get a response, we spoke to Mike Hookem, a Member of the European Parliament with the UK Independence Party (UKIP).
How did he think Brexit would affect Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom?
Scotland does have a different political spectrum to the UK, being much more left wing and having a government which preaches the benefits of the EU without any real opposition to that theory. But I cannot imagine the Scottish people wanting to join the euro, which they would have to do if they left the UK and joined as a separate country, and I am sure there would be a real voice of opposition calling for Scotland to take the opportunity to regain control of her territorial waters which have been plundered by the Common Fisheries Policy.
In Scotland in recent years, whilst England has been debating independence from Brussels, Edinburgh has been obsessed with ‘independence’ from Westminster. But there can be no independence for the Scottish people outside the UK but still inside the EU: it is an entirely false argument and one which Nigel Farage and Alex Salmond will be debating publicly soon.
For another perspective, we spoke to Kirsty Hughes, an Associate Fellow at Friends of Europe who has authored and in-depth policy paper looking at the upcoming EU referendum in the UK through the lens of Scotland. What would she say to Barbara?
If the UK leaves the EU it will add to the arguments for Scotland leaving the UK, and it will increase support in Scotland for independence. But I don’t think it will necessarily lead to a new referendum for independence overnight.
I think there will be a big political crisis in the UK if there’s a vote for Brexit. I think Northern Ireland, Scotland, and perhaps Wales too, are all likely to vote ‘Remain’. And the Scottish National Party might want to see how that unfolds, and also how big a demand there is for a new independence vote in Scotland before going ahead. There are quite a lot of people in Scotland who support independence, but don’t want another vote until they have stronger arguments about having their own currency, and how to be competitive economically.
So, I think there’s a tendency to think it’s an automatic thing that Scotland will go independent. I think Brexit would make it more likely, but it’s a bit more complicated than some think.
How would Brexit affect Scottish independence? What happens if England votes to “Leave”, while Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales choose to “Remain”? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
130 comments Post a commentcomment
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Depends if you believe the Brussels propaganda or not.
The reality is the Scots hate the EU just as much as the English.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/euroscepticism-scotland-record-high
True
we don’t hate the English mate most of us have English family members…but we do hate the Tories and they rule us when we never ever vote for them and that’s un-democratic
434,059 Scots voted Conservative at the last General Election, and by all accounts more will vote Conservative at the forthcoming Scottish Election.
Not according to Nicola Sturgeon
Nonsens! The Scottish Yes votes for independence were clearly visible on the NO table.
Check the SkyNews footage on Youtube.!!
This was already debunked – by the “Yes” camp, no less! https://twitter.com/YesDundee/status/512750627626049536
Do more research next time before spreading rumours.
So the SkyNews footage is rumours?
I appologize then.
Let every region decide for itself, seems to be the most democratic point of view
they are NOT regions they are countries
Well technically, no. Democracy is autonomous in nature. The majority decide for everyone. A system where everyone decides for themselves would be chaos. I don’t know of any nation that’s adopted that system, probably because if someone decides they want to go on a murder rampage then it would be their right to do so.
I think it’s irresponsible and dangerous to abandon the EU, specially during the current state of geopolitics. I think we are stronger together. It will fragment Europe and weaken the last bastion of freedom and secularist reason. One can set an example from 2500 years ago, when the Etruscan league dissolve themselves giving the Romans open field for imperialist demand and consequently the lost of civil rights, specially the women whom contrarily to the Etruscans were considered by the Romans and the Greeks as inferior and it took Humanity another 2500 years for woman to regain their equality status. The world is changing to fast and I just hope we stand for cooperation rather then enclosure. I was born in Portugal but lived in many countries throughout the world (Currently in beautiful Scotland) and for people like me, who don’t belong to a single place but to all places, this is somewhat scary. Hope we do right thing and wont succumb to medieval nationalism moral.
Being a Portugese, knowing what happened to the Portugese economy, no one better then Yourself can judge what the one direction politicians of ‘united ” Brussel can do.
More then ever before are the EC memberstates divided for each other in a terrible dream called EU.
Instead of working together in the core areas, there is more disagreement on the conference tables as ever on the battle fields in Europe.
And that`s sad.
I believe strongly the UK would do far better, being free from the killing Euro, and free to handle her own trade contracts.
Brexit will bring about more problems for Britain than for Europe. Also, english is now the main language to communicate between europeans. Without Britain in the EU this would have less sense and maybe the british should have to learn other languages to communicate for oficial matters with the EU. How many british know another language tan english? Other arguments for Britain to remain in the EU: euromeblog.wordpress.com
Sorry, Rene. English is the Language of the Air and Sea. Too late.
OK Mark, but most of the people do not live in the air or on the sea.
Having a greater reason to learn another language is a good thing isn’t it?
The SNP would love another excuse to call a second referendum but that totally depends upon a UK vote for out with a majority of Scots voting to remain in
Unfortunately the biggest threat to the SNP plans is David Cameron, the Scottish hate the Tories more than any other species on the planet, and the more Cameron bangs on about staying in the more people in Scotland will vote the exact opposite
If Scotland want to leave England LET THEM.England NEEDS to leave the EU for all our sakes and our children’s sakes
Erm, Scotland can hardly leave England. They may be able to leave the UK, but they’ll still be attached to England. As for will they leave the UK, I can’t see it happening anytime soon. Regardless of their love affair with the EU, leaving the UK would mean they’d need to apply to join the EU as a newly independent nation. So they’d have to struggle as an independent nation until that process was resolved. And the application to join would probably not be possible to start on until their independence was formalised (territorial waters, eez, nato status, division of shared assets/wealth, situation regarding passports of citizenry, policy on the border, etc. it would be a long process) unlike the UK and the EU where it is still a “member state” situation (for now) we are talking about separating conjoined nations. That would take decades or longer to do peacefully.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/03/14/a-brexit-could-make-it-easier-for-scotland-to-join-the-eu-as-an-independent-state/
I want Scotland join us as indipendent State, without England!
There is no independence within the EU.
Today there doesn’t exist independence for any country. Independence means separation. Independence is isolation. We all depend on each other and together we are stronger than separately. We are interdependent. Independence is haggard.
@RENE Sorry, 2x wrong!
“The squeaky wheel gets the grease” It is not Psychology or Sociology.
Independence in historical political terms means sovereignty, self rule (even within a union) and self governance. It does not PRECLUDE interdependence. All species live independently- within the universe or an ecosystem- they are however all interdependent on something.
Farmers separate & protect their chicken from foxes! Married couples don’t like their in-laws to prescribe. Separation in marriage means divorce.
Political “separate” development within one independent country meant Apartheid.
Independence is sovereignty over your nation’s laws and borders.
It doesn’t preclude cooperation with other nations, nor does it remove the interdependence of nations through political alliances and trade, but it redefines their relationship.
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The EU is set to ban referendums so the question is irrelevant proving Brussels has no interest in the opinion of it’s citizens.
It is time to leave the antidemocratic EU.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/opinion/why-we-should-ban-referenda-on-eu-policies/
re: euractiv.com “ban referendum”
While the DISCLAIMER states “All opinions in this “column (by Fraser Cameron) reflect the views of the author, not of EurActiv.com PLC”- it is clear that the EC is hiding behind this move!
This is a first salvo by the EC to strip all voters (considered too DUMB to understand the glorious EU concept) of any (remaining) democratic input. Even Merkel said the Dutch NO result has to be “managed” (circumvented, disregarded, annulled) to safeguard the unhindered dictatorial decision making by a few- which is the EU elite, the EC & the rubber stamping Schulz choir.
If member states do not collect enough signatures to FORCE national referendums on certain issues- like the Dutch did- even our local Governments have been demoted to an EC rubber stamping printing shop. If the Dutch referendum is “managed” by the EC- this matter need to be challenged & brought before the European Court of Justice.
That’s the problem of NOT having a proper EU Constitution- just treaties which are constantly bent, abused & changed to best suit the EC’s Suzerain one & only purpose: to create a TOTAL anti & undemocratic EU!
Further: Should Germany’s Chancellor Merkel in cahoots with her EC friends try to “manage” and bypass, override, ignore or reject the result of the recent Dutch NO result- or any other Members national legally valid referendum- these leaders are breaching EU treaty law! (e.g. association agreements with Ukraine, Turkey & others) An action for annulment of such illegal decision can/must urgently be brought before the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU)- as described here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Aai0038
Ivan Burrows, your article is not the official EU position. Article quote: “Fraser Cameron is a former European Commission official and Senior Adviser with Cambre Associates, a Brussels-based, integrated public relations and public affairs consultancy.” Greece’s referendum highlights that independent governments of their own country disregard referendums with the people’s choice. Now that reality needs to be addressed by the people. Also Ireland’s referendum to join the EU was first a no, so their government had another referendum and it was a yes. That also needs to be addressed. And if the EU ever attempted to remove referendums, that would also need to be addressed by the people.
As a Scotsman im bewildered that the Pro-Independence group think being independent in the EU is a legitimate cause, how the hell can being independent include being a member of the EU, sounds like the SNP are using a little doublethink
My bet is after England leave the EU.they will put laws in to make it almost impossible for anyone else to leave.Its only because they were taken by surprise and cant believe whats happened that they havent sealed an exit off,but they will after England leave.i suggest if you want to leave the eu get out now before they change the rules because they will
We all share the same values in western Europe and by turning our backs to each other we’re cooking another destruction era, just like we did 100 years ago. Have you realized that we are right in the middle of two extremism (America and the Middle east)?
We all share the same values in western Europe and by turning our backs to each other we’re cooking another destruction era, just like we did 100 years ago. Have you realized that we are right in the middle of two extremism (America and the Middle east)?
Let’s be honest, it’s got nothing to do with anyone from anywhere else in Europe, it’s our choice as British people and we need to make the choice that is best for us and us alone, in our national interest. So with all due respect, the opinions of those from other European countries aren’t really relevant.
well they are if you are Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish.
@Rosy Forlenza
Scottish and Welsh are British…..but technically he should have stated “it is our choice as people of the UK” which then includes NI
Yes they won’t be able to vote but it does in form the debate – some are in and some are out
It would seen that you have very sensitive about this topic, Ivan Burrows. You fear that a Brexit will lead to Scottish independence.
I think that your fears are well founded. I think it is very likely that if Scotland leaves the UK, that Scotland would seek to leave the UK.
The Scots are more pro-EU than the rest of England, even if Scots are fully aware of the flaws and problems within it, it seems likely that they are going to vote strongly to stay. At the last poll, only 35% of Scots said they would vote for a Brexit.
But the story is more complicated than this. Those who support independence are generally indifferent to the EU, where 43% of “Yes” voters want to leave, and 46% want to stay.
HOWEVER, of those who voted “No,” 54% want to stay in the EU, and 34% want to leave. And this is important because it suggests that “No” voters are more pro-EU than “Yes” voters. This is critical for two reasons.
1. EU membership was a significant component for the “No” campaign’s strategy as a reason why Scotland should stay in the UK.
2. Those “No” voters are the ones which the independence movement needs to convince to switch to “yes”, and since that group of voters is much more pro-EU than the overall Scottish population, it suggests that a Brexit may potentially turn up to 20% of “No” voters into “yes” voters (this figure is the deduction of No voters who will vote to stay v. those who will vote to leave.” [1]
In conclusion, while the overall pattern of Scots voting in the EU referendum will undoubtedly produce a “Stay” vote, the differences in voting pattern in relation to attitudes towards independence is remarkable because “Yes” voters are unlikely to switch to vote “No” to Scottish Independence the event of a Brexit, but “No” voters are, who are noticeable more pro-EU than the wider Scottish and indeed UK population. This is important because this pool of 20% of “No” voters is critical to securing Scottish independence and the EU referendum seems to be important to this 20% group. Especially important since support for independence right now in Scotland is between 43 and 53% [2]
Anecdotally, I know many people in Scotland who voted “No” who are now VERY worried about the impact the a Brexit will have on the Scottish economy, on the direction of politics, and the wider social landscape.
The Scottish Government has released a report in which they spell out in great detail their concern the adverse consequences that a Brexit will have on Scotland. These concerns are not just purely in relation to the EU itself, but how that will change the dynamics and political direction of the UK in which Scotland is a part [3].
In the short term, the UK is going to vote to stay, but if there was a Brexit, which inevitably would lead to political and economic instability, I have no doubt that it would, sooner or later (and probably sooner) lead to a second referendum and a better-than-even chance of Scotland’s exit from the UK.
[1] http://survation.com/a-tale-of-two-referendums-fear-of-leaving-eu-has-little-effect-on-pro-independence-scots-2/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Post-referendum_polling
[3] http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/CurrentCommittees/97679.aspx
Bruce – anything else that I missed?
One or two points:
Even if the SNP get a political mandate for a second referendum based on a Brexit situation, on current polling the answer will still be no
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-the-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-a#table
This is probably due to the current oil situation. As you say, staying in the EU was made a big issue by the no campaign in the last referendum but (despite Nicola Sturgeon’s continued claims) the issue of “getting our oil back” was a definite cornerstone of the yes campaign….and as revenue from oil has plummeted, so has confidence in independence.
Also the claim Scots are more pro EU is just something being played up by the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon is treading a fine line in wanting an overall UK Brexit vote while ensuring the Scottish element is an “in” vote, this is why the SNP is currently very subdued with regards to the EU referendum. I’m sure a poll around Edinburgh and the borders will be pro-EU from all the wannabe bankers but look for opinions from the North East where the fishing industry has been decimated, or the Clyde where shipbuilding has been ruined by competition regulations, and it’s not a pro-EU Scotland you will find there.
One final hypothetical point. Just suppose there is a big Pro-EU return from Scotland yet small majorities from England, Wales and NI for leaving, has the rest of the UK got grounds to kick Scotland out for forcing them to remain in the EU against their wishes?
It’s all smoke and mirrors, just the SNP trying to keep their more radical supporters onside.
Scottish Independence is dead, killed off by the $30 a barrel oil price crash that destroyed their incredulous economic argument in the White Paper.
As for NO voters who’ve come to regret their decision, well I’ve never met one, and I know a fair few!
As for No voters turning against the UK if there’s a vote for Brexit, weren’t we supposed to be comprised of the elderly, the most anti EU demographic?
Dinnae dash yourself – Scotland will probably leave the Uk at some point anyway. No point worrying about the inevitable.
Theirs no evidence that the Scots are any more pro EU than the rest of the U.K.
In fact in last years referendum the nationalists were forced to campaign that if Scotland became independent they would never adopt the Euro and they would not join the Schengen area.They knew they would never win if they did.
Can I ask a question about tax and transparency – and tory MEP leader Fox
Im a scot and ill be voting out out
Out.out and out unless your mental
Not at all. Scots will always be independent.
“Polling suggests that Scotland is significantly more pro-EU than the rest of the UK”
I think this vote us gona give folks a nasty wakeup call….
If you are doing an article like this, you should be talking to politicians from both ends of the spectrum. Ukip = anti EU and anti independence. SNP = pro EU and pro independence. Try asking both to get a balanced story.
Denmark, Finland, Slovakia and Ireland all have around the same population as Scotland. They each pay between €1 – 4 billion into the EU every year. Just how is Scotland going to afford this with a population of around 5,350 million and with only a emp!oyable working population of just over 2,600 milion? With our new tax powers coming into force, and with a great possibility of those earners in the higher income brackets leaving Scotland, how on earth is this country going to afford this? We will be bankrupt within a year.
At last common sense!not just anti english hatrid from the past,iam sorry we burnt crofts and red coats had muskets to your claymores ,but hey lets move on.
Back when same sex marriage was debated there was a poll saying the 60% of Scottish people were against it, turned out that only 7000 people were polled so it was completely un-representative… you have to ask how many people were interviewed in the polls that suggest that most Scots want to remain in EU….also do we really believe that the EU will permit Scotland to be independent? Take a trip over to Rep. Ireland and ask the people there how “independent” they fee l!!!
It is true that calling Scotland passionately pro-European would be quite a stretch. However, in comparison to England and especially the south of England, public opinion in Scotland is more positive towards the EU (and it is similar to many other EU-countries btw.)
I think, a new Scottish referendum will take place if the UK as a whole votes leave, while in Scotland a majority votes stay. And this scenario is not that unlikely – see:
http://mytakeon.eu/brexit-and-the-scottish-question/
Very modest posting a link to one of your own articles.. lol
But again, what is missing is something I have mentioned earlier. Just supposing there is an overall UK majority vote to remain in the EU with slim English, Welsh and NI “out” majorities being overuled by a large Scottish “in” vote?
Can the rest of the UK claim “democratic outrage” of being kept in Europe against their will?
Haha fair point. Sorry about that, it’s just that I elaborated the same argument there in a bit more depth which is why I linked to it.
Well yes absolutely. But it is ultimately a question of how you understand devolution. I personally don’t think that Scotland or any other devolved part of the UK has a right to be outraged if outvoted in an issue that is of importance to the UK as a whole. Devolution is about internal matters more than anything.
That being said, in the current situation I believe that Scotland would still move towards a new independence referendum if outvoted – not for ‘legal’ or moral reasons but simply because the SNP would not want to miss this chance. Ultimately, the SNP is simply not happy with devolution, which is why trying to give a moral answer to the question on the basis of a devolved Britain does not necessarily reflect political reality.
Yes I agree, however much they try and pretend otherwise, a fundamental aim of the SNP is independence and their “once in a generation” referendum was never going to be simply that
The main issue is as I have previously mentioned, confidence in Scottish independence is very low at the moment due to the North Sea oil crisis, so the timing of the EU referendum is certainly not in the favor of the SNP.
It will make them look pretty stupid if they complain that “Right, you dragged us out of the EU so we want an independence referendum………but we want to wait a year or so until there is a recovery in oil prices first”
There won’t be another independence referendum.
The Scottish Government doesn’t have the authority to hold one, and the UK Government will simply refuse and hold them to their ‘once in a generation’ deal.
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. It depends on many things. As Paul has mentioned, the oil price plays an important role, so does the exact outcome of the referendum and public opinion (or to what extend Scots would actually be willing to support independence as a result of a Brexit).
If public opinion shifts strongly towards independence, Westminster can’t simply refuse. If it doesn’t shift however, you are right: the SNP alone won’t be able to push for a referendum without strong popular support.
It’s not really the oil price as such that’s relevant in the independence debate, but the profitability of oil production, since it’s the profit that the oil companies make that’s taxed by the Government.
With North Sea extraction costs around $52.50 a barrel compared with around $14 or less in the Middle East, investing in the North Sea is a far less attractive proposition for the oil companies.
Currently its unprofitable and likely to remain so for some time, and I believe I’m correct in saying that at the moment oil has negative impact on the economy.
As for support for independence increasing, it hasn’t really changed as a proportion of the electorate, stuck at around 35-37%.
put it this way how could we an independent Scotland if we were just one state under European law rules and regulations the best chance is vote to leave
Reasoning this way, the best and most democratic would be that England also votes its independence as well as Scotland (and maybe Wales, etc.) and each vote separately to leave or to stay in Europe. In other words: Enexit instead of Brexit.
England, Wales, Scotland have their own soccer teams and compete in Europe and the world independently. There is no British team. They are the only ones in Europe (The Basque would like to compete in Europe with their own team but are not allowed). Why not do the same with politics? Then any of them could decide to leave or to stay in Europe. What’s democracy?
And now Scotland is under the British law rules and regulations and it seems they are not very happy. What’s different?
RENE, if you are a subject of the “British crown”- you better know your own history. One can argue about the future but not the past- or?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_formation_of_the_United_Kingdom
of course you can argue about the past. That’s exactly what historians do!
Regarding Peter’s argument: its always a matter of perspective and who is the “in-group”; who is “us” and who is “them”.
You can argue that the UK is currently not independent because of EU regulations if being British is your primary identification. If you identify as European primarily you might think differently.
If you define yourself as a Scot more than as a Brit, being part of the UK might seem like oppression but so might belonging to the EU.
In the end we should stop talking about “independence” all that much. Its a very difficult concept, extraordinarily multilayered. What about universal human rights, UN regulations, international law, bilateral agreements etc?
Ralf, you are of course right that one can argue for arguments sake about almost everything- which includes to speculate. British HISTORICAL facts is a given for me and i abstain to argue them, interfere, take sides or try fantasizing about “quantum entanglement”.
The present choices are too important for the future and these can & need to be influenced by ALL affected voters to avoid arriving at an outcome solely directed & decided by the entrenched “ELITE” & Establishment.
Sorry, I’m not a “subject” of the “British crown”. And the British Empire does not exist anymore. History is not something to go back to… I am borne Belgian and since 40 years Spaniard. Belgium was once part of the Netherlands but got its independence in 1830. But after World War II they founded Benelux together with the Netherlands and Luxemburg. Benelux has served as a model of the EU. It was Europe’s embryo. I love I am proud of being Flemish (speaking dutch), Belgian (speaking also french), Spaniard (speaking spanish), and last but not least European (speaking also english and german).
@ EU reform- proactive
You are a breath of fresh air on here. If only we all had your wisdom.
If the Scots vote to remain in Europe it should have no effect on them whatsoever. All they need is another referendum to seek relief from Westminster, that, this time, isn’t fixed. All those Scots who want to be part of Europe can stay in their homeland and the rest move to England, Wales or Northern Ireland.
However, once again, I repeat, seventy countries including Malta, Gibraltar and Southern Ireland have the right to vote in this referendum. So, this vote is also already a fix. And the sickening action in all of it is watching our politicians, on both sides of the argument, pretending otherwise.
Corbyn, akin to the Greek Tsipras, has already sold out in his principles on this issue. For he knows full well Europe is controlled by the unelected elite globalists and their banker friends. He, of all men, knows the truth.
The disappointment will be fatal.
Just what position exactly is it that you’re arguing here?
Is your position that the Scots would be better off seceding from the UK to remain part of the EU, which you describe as being “controlled by the unelected elite globalists and their banker friends”?
Of course that would only be the ‘real’ nationalist Scots, not the 55%+ who like me voted to remain within the UK, in what was, despite your suggestion a completely fair vote.
We’re to be expelled from the land of our birth.
Furthermore, how do you justify the statement that citizens of seventy countries should have the right to vote in the EU referendum?
Why should citizens of other countries have the right to vote in it?
Did British citizens demand the right to vote in the Irish EU referenda in 2008 or the recent Greek referendum?
No. Nor should we have.
I’m Scottish, proud to be British, and I’ll be voting to leave the EU.
Scotland?
Let them go, let them go, to the wind, the rain and the snow…
Divide’s as common as merging, anyway.
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If (& its a big if) the Scots really wanted to stay in the EU then I wish them luck.. but they should know Hadrian’s wall would be rebuilt.
They would just love using the job destroying Euro & accepting 10,000’s your migrants under Schengen.
But I don’t think there is much to worry about, only a fool would vote to actually join the EU.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/euroscepticism-scotland-record-high
We accept their decisions. It’s DEMOCRACY, thing that does not exist anymore in Europe.
Eu não sou politico, também já percebi que bruxelas preferia um governo de centro de direita em Portugal mas caramba com tantas crises como a falta de governo noutros países da União a crise dos refugiados o terrorismo….será que não deve-mos ser um exemplo de democracia. Onde está o coração dos homens ???
We are a nation we go together we vote together we stay together
as one
We vote out together one nation with four different county within it
Vote out for Queen and keep our United Kingdom together
Let them do as they please. We have been separate countries before.
I can’t quite get my head around the idea of having repeated referenda until you get the answer you want and then stopping the process.
Had Scotland voted to have independence would they then have pushed for another referendum if the EU situation changed ?
UKIP polled far more votes at the last election than the Liberals and SDLP combined – result: one seat in parliament.
Tell me more about democracy !
If the EU comprised only the northern European countries I should be inclined to vote to stay in.
However I’ve yet to find any explanation of what, if any benefits the lesser industrialised countries bring to the club.
Let’s first hope England leaves the EU…then Scotland will follow. I don’t think scots are idiots.
Well said, Chris, especially your last piece. What people here in the UK have got to realise is that many of these countries now wishing to join the EU such as Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Turkey etc are complete basket cases as far as their economies are concerned. They would drive down the EU not up. Many have little grasp of the type of education as we know in the West and are used to very menial work. Why on earth should we here in the UK have such people in our country. Our brightest and cleverest people would leave the UK for places such as America or Canada whilst the UK would be left with the dregs of society.
@ Robert Wilson.
I have answered you twice but obviously it was considered too enlightening. So, I try again, with this post from the ‘Lords of the Blog.’ It will give some answers to your questions addressed to me. Look the rest of them up.
———-
maude elwes
15/03/2016 at 12:25 pm
I wonder how many British people are aware the BBC is paid annually a worthy stipend from the EU on the proviso it does not reveal anything against our being an EU member?
Here is an exmple of how the BBC does not openly reveal all it is supposed to in order to keep the people of the UK informed and up to date.
For example, what do you really know about the up coming EU referendum on in or out of Europe? Who can vote, and, how it works. Well here you will find the BBC’s chosen revelations.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887
Now here on this little blog is more clarity on this vote. Did you know, for example, that 70 countries will have the vote on our behalf. Read this in full as the BBC are reluctant to fully explain.
http://www.britishinfluence.org/the_referendum_who_can_and_can_t_vote
Then, once you have read it in full, weigh up what they are not letting out anywhere you will be easily able to access.
Have the BBC really explained to the British people why the USA thinks it should send its White House members to advise us on what ‘they’ think will be in their best interests for us to remain in the EU and why? Will Mr President, and his lovely wife, be willing to shed complete light on TTIP and their need for our access in the EU and influence on their behalf? And do you see or hear the BBC investigating this in our best interests?
The BBC is no longer an arm of information for the education and interests of the British people.
—–
Hope this brings some clarity.
Interesting piece. Could you advise where information comes from as regards the BBC?
@ Fiona Mckemmie
I have no doubt you are researching for ways to shut off revelations. However, you can read this which tells it in part. There are other places to find out what goes on under the table but they are more important.
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/326669-eu-funding-bbc-uk/
Here is another bit of information for your file. All those in the British House of Lords, and others with any influence in our political machine who have worked tax free in the EU, still get enormous pensions and various other perks as long as they do not reveal any EU machinations or speak out against the union.
This includes people like the Kinnocks, both of them, as well as their children, then Mandelson and the rest. If they do speak out defiantly against the undemocratic rulers of us all, they are cut off from the fat perks. Apparently they sign up for this staying mum on joining.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192894/Revealed-How-Kinnocks-enjoyed-astonishing-10m-ride-EU-gravy-train.html
PS: You too can look it all up. If you can’t find it, change your wording.
Many thanks for replying, Catherine. Very interesting info although only amounts to around £3 million per year. Still, it is £3 million too much! I knew about the Kinnock’s some years ago. Who says it doesn’t pay to be in politics of whatever political persuasion!
In the referendum it is not England and Scotland. It is the UK.
I am fed up telling the SNP this. I vote SNP but I voted No to Indy.
I am voting leave.
I am a pesky Ulster Scot. Tough. Deal with it.
Brexit probably won’t affect Scoxit much either way. It’s probably going to happen at some point anyway.
The Declaration of Arbroath 1320, which, for you English who’ve never heard of it, is the central part of the Scottish constitution says it all as far as English Brexit votes dragging Scotland out of the EU. L:et me quote from the lkast few paragraphs:
‘……we have been set free… by our most tireless prince, King and lord, the lord Robert… Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy… and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King….’
AND
‘….as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself….’
Says it all, doesn’t it. Brexit might even result in not only Scotland breaking away from the current UK, as it would have the right to do under the Declaration of Arebroath which is still extant today, but it might also lead to the removal of the current monarch and her huge enterage. GREAT. :)
Declaration of Arbroath?
Here’s a realistic critique of it.
Hiding under a myth: independence and the Declaration of Arbroath
By Donald Macleod | Published: September 8, 2014
But then on Monday I was ambushed (sorry for being so abrupt). It’s hard to explain how it happened. The Referendum campaign is driving me nuts, forcing me to adopt a life-style which minimises the risk of bumping into it. It’s turned me into a fugitive, compelled to walk in the shadows and send out advance-parties to make sure it’s not there. These are days when a man’s got to watch what he sees and hears.
And if there’s one place where you’re bound to meet Referendum it’s Reporting Scotland; and on Monday night my guard slipped or, more precisely, I got the timing wrong. I usually manage to switch on just in time for the weather-forecast (it’s important to know whether there’s going to be sunshine and showers in my study tomorrow), but this time, to my horror, Remote put on Referendum; and, paralytic with shock, I froze, unable to switch off.
In a flash, Referendum was under my skin. I had planned a brilliant investigative piece on the scandal now engulfing NHS Western Isles, after the shocking disclosure (to quote one headline) that ‘Hospital beds are overcrowded’. No details have been forthcoming, leaving the public in the dark as to whether patients are having to sleep two-in-a-bed or five-in-a-bed.
But that piece will have to wait till I get last night’s Reporting Scotland out of my system. It showed Mr. Salmond basking in the glory of the Declaration of Arbroath (1320) as if it were the Manifesto of the Scottish National Party, written by himself and setting forth in one iconic document all the aspirations of the Scottish people.
Let’s take a deep breath, as you’re told to do when you have a panic-attack. There’s one thing clear about the Declaration of Arbroath: whatever it was, it was not a declaration of the Scottish people. It was a declaration of the nobility, signed by 18 earls and 31 barons; and the voice we hear is not the voice of the people, but the voice of the land, speaking in defence of property. The people knew little about it. It was, after all, written in Latin.
And it would be a serious mistake to call these barons ‘Scots’. Many, like Robert the Bruce himself, were Normans; others, as Tom Johnston loved to point out in his splendid account of ‘Our Noble Families’, were Flemish pirates; yet others were closely connected to the noble families of England; and the rest were rapacious rascals. Together, they bitterly resented the claim of the English Crown to feudal superiority over their precious lands, but the rights and liberties of the Scottish people were the least of their concerns. The freedom they pledged to defend was only their own freedom to extort toil, rent and military service from their serfs and vassals. It was not ‘a noble thing’. Mr. Salmond should stick to kissing babies and distance himself from robber barons. After all, people might draw the wrong conclusion.
In any case, it was a strange kind of freedom these barons were prepared to lay down their lives for. They certainly wanted an end to the devastating raids constantly launched against the robber barons of Scotland by the robber barons of England. But what really irked them in 1320 was that the Pope sided with the English. This is why the Declaration is not a declaration at all, but a letter to His Holiness, at that time an earthly (and foreign) potentate with huge military and diplomatic muscle. The barons were indeed keen to be rid of Edward II, but they were perfectly happy to be subservient to John XXII, promising ‘all filial reverence, with devout kisses of his blessed feet.’
We’re pretty sure Mr. Salmond wouldn’t want to kiss anyone’s feet, and surer still he wouldn’t want to re-open those debates on the papacy which eventually lead to real freedom for Scotland. But then, he shouldn’t provoke us.
Maybe, just to get the balance right, Mr. Salmond should arrange another photo-shoot, this time beside the statue of John Knox; and there he might quote to camera the reply of the said John to Queen Mary’s contemptuous question, ‘And what are you within this Commonwealth?’ ‘A subject born within the same,’ he replied, ‘and albeit I neither be Earl, Lord, nor Baron within it, yet has God made me (how abject that ever I be in your eyes), a profitable member within the same.’ There is the real germ of Scottish democracy.
But perhaps the oddest thing about the Declaration of Arbroath is its totally mythological account of Scottish history: a ‘laughable fiction’, as John Prebble called it. Apparently we came from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules. Heroes, we were, of classical antiquity. Then, by a marvellous transformation, we became the children of Israel crossing the Red Sea; as an encore we became the first nation to embrace Christianity; and to crown it all we were confirmed in that faith by ‘the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Beloved Peter’s brother’ (which must have been very difficult to arrange, considering that in the days of Saint Andrew the Scots were still in Ireland, in the loins of their ancestors).
If Mr Salmond wishes to attach his chariot to such a garbled idea of Scottish identity, so be it. What is not a myth, and what is not remotely funny, is that by the time of the Declaration of Arbroath the Scots had been driven north to the Highlands, re-christened ‘Gaels’, officially categorised as ‘wild’ and declared sub-human.
Why has this ‘debate’ become so maddening that a man wants to slink into a close every time he sees it coming? Because, it’s never been about ideas, let alone an Idea. I don’t mean that you can never get an answer. Ask any Nationalist why he wants independence and he’ll answer in a flash, ‘Because it will give us control of our own affairs.’ How much further forward is that? ‘Control of our own affairs’ simply says in four words what ‘independence’ says in one. And as we go round the circle once again no one can flesh out what they mean by the one or the other. Even less can they tell us what they would do with it if they got it.
Apart, of course, from having your photo taken sitting on the Stone of Destiny holding the Declaration of Arbroath.
This article first appeared in the West Highland Free Press, 22 August, 2014.
If Scotland is as pro-EU as those looking for an excuse for a second Scottish referendum would have us believe, then it seems just as likely that Scottish remain votes will keep England in the EU against its will
It will be more easy for an independent Scotland to enter the EU in the case of Brexit. Regions have more drawbacks to be independent if their country is a member of the EU, because this member country has the right to give its veto to these regions to enter the EU. This would for instance be the case of the Basque and Catalonian regions in Spain. Spain could vote against their entrance in the EU.
We, the EU, should not convince an anti-European country to stay in and more, empower it to hinder us from the inside. it’s a strategic error that will forever push Britain in the second tier of countries (where it is even now loudmouthing notwithstanding, if you’ve been there). But the EU can not have an anti-European member.
personally i say let scotland go it alone.. when they realize how much the money sucking eu takes from THEM… then dont come crying to english government for money… your bed you lie in it
nicola sturgeon has egg on her face from the last defeat and has used this referendum to call another referendum in scotland to vilify her last defeat .this time she will look great and win.she was always going to leave england.she was just looking for a way to do iy.LET HER GO
Scotland ain’t going anywhere, the EU doesn’t want a bankrupt Scotland as a member, and they won’t want to poison the Brexit negotiations by seeming to encourage the nationalists.
They’re already giving Sturgeon the brush off.
By the way, there’s plenty of us would be highly delighted if she left Scotland.
scotland is welcomed in England but not Nicola sturgeon.shes just an egotist who has to win and will stop at nothing to make herself look good.we want scotland to stay and i think we both need brexit leaders who will get on with the job of leaving the eu and making our countries great again.
“making our countries great again”, sounds like Donald Trump. Scotland voted “in” and impeding them to stay in the EU is not democratic. That England an Wales leave the EU, OK, but please respect the will of Scotland, Northern Ireland anf Gibraltar. The latter are citizens with the same rights as the former. 51,9% of 72% is poor democracy.
This “Scotland voted to remain” bullshit needs to be challenged.
The EU ballot paper posed the question should the UK remain in, or leave the European Union.
It was a UK wide ballot, one man, one vote, to decide the question posed and the only result of significance was how the votes tallied when the polls closed.
Scotland’s vote count’s only significance was in terms of the over all result.
It’s hardly a plebiscite for independence, when many nationalists would have voted leave, and Unionists voted remain.
After all of her huffing and puffing, suggesting that an independence referendum was back on the cards when she knew she couldn’t deliver it, (and that she couldn’t win it) she’s now changing tack and threatening to try to block Brexit in the Scottish Parliament.
The SNP show a shocking disregard for democracy.
Scotland would prosper within the EU without having the negativity and arrogance of England hanging around our necks.
I think the time has come for Scotland to be independent. That way they can remain in the EU and have the Euro as their currency and all the people in the rest of the UK who want to remain in the EU can go and live there. Win Win!
I agree with Andy let Scotland go and when they go broke under eu like so many others leave them out in the cold its only the left wing of the world that want the eu the lefties hate losing l hope Trump gets in America and the world will go back to what it use to be
Scotland are entitled to another referendum if they want to.We need to concentrate on steadying the rest of the uk and let her get on with it.there are more important things to sort out at the moment like stabilising the political situation and letting things calm down.we can do without nicola sturgeon and her egotistical campaign the leave england
Does scotland really want tio leave England or just Nicola Sturgeon?
Yes agree Scotland welcome but not Nicola Sturgen but l cant see that happening being young left wing its those people who are behind her they can’t see the future the leftwing are all unionized and have so much control in the world .
As most politicians they have their own agenda, Nicola Sturgeon is leading them to her own drum so to speak. I have mentioned this another debate but the evidence can be found about the supposed EU funding.
In short I have posted some links I have from the UK budget and the EU website, to me, and I admit I am no genius in the math but even I can see that UK pays the EU and then the EU re labels it, this is £4.5 Billion paid back as Public Sector Receipts that is to Farmers and other supposed EU sponsored projects. The payment to farmers is to make sure they do not grow too much thus lowering the price, so what they sell to is to The EU level, like a fish quota and money paid to the farmer so he doesn’t lose out, but we do. The EU sponsored (remember this comes out of UK initial budget) projects that Scotland, Ireland Wales and England enjoy make up the rest of this £4.5 Billion.
Please any Scot think of separating from the UK ( And I say this as I have Scot, Irish and Jewish ancestry) check out the below links These blow any arguments as far as I can see out of the water. In short Don’t trust the politicians in telling the truth. They can lie like flat fish.
http://ec.europa.eu/esf/main.jsp?catId=62&langId=en
http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/information/cohesion-policy-achievement-and-future-investment/factsheet/united_kingdom_en.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf
I am amazed when intelligent people don’t look directly at the policies and only listen to 3rd parties its all out there. Seek and you shall find
well it looks like the EU has said no to Scotland staying in the EU if England leave and are warming to a deal in the single market with control of our borders
I voted against joining the common market (as the eu was then) I voted to remain in the uk and I voted remain in the eu.
Why did I vote remain? The other parties (yes there are others despite what Nicola Sturgeon has to say ) sent out a JOINT flyer advising us that a brexit vote would lead to an independence referendum! GUESS WHAT !
As part of the uk we have now left the EU. just as we were when Scottish voters voted not to enter the common market.
All of our British government have agreed that the Brexit vote is final except for the SNP which is doing it’s very best to make Scotland look foolish first by trying to make illegal deals with the EU of remaining in whilst still part of the UK and now by trying to broker deals of entry of an independent Scotland. Nicola speaks as if it is already independent and she is the voice of all Scots– I think not!
As part of a United Kingdom she too must accept the vote however unpalatable she finds it. Our Economy is in a state of flux at the moment and rocking the boat is unacceptable at the moment.
God forbid that Scotland becomes independent. During the last independence referendum The SNP predicted an 8 million dollar oil revenue it is now only 100 million dollars, this loss in revenue is absorbed by the UK but Scotland alone would be crippled.
The Bank of Scotland was baled out by the UK it is still owned by the UK and is currently still badly in debt to the tune of millions. As independent Scotland any financial help for Scottish banks in the future would have to be from the EU should it join. Scotland would still be liable for part of the UK national debt, billions of pounds worth. It would have to pay the EU, have its own borders and its own currency until it was part of the Euro ( a wonderful prospect!?!) and absorb the migrant workers that could no longer enter The rest of the UK and for all the Sturgeon blarney it is not only skilled workers that will be coming. Does Scotland have enough jobs and housing – no. As it stands we don’t even have that for the whole of the UK so how is Scotland going to absorb it?
How hard is it going to be for businesses to trade with the rest of the UK with borders and a new currency, bearing in mind that the majority of what will now be ‘exports’ are currently within the uk. Passports will be needed and new trade agreements will need to be made with the rest of a Britain that is not part of the EU.
Will there have to be higher taxes not just to stay solvent but to keep essential services going, what will happen to our free prescriptions, free university places ?
The list goes on.
For Gods sake SNP work for Scotland and get behind our Brittish government which though imperfect is still a democracy unequalled in the world and even better for leaving what is fast becoming a very undemocratic EU. A place where an Undemocratic Nicola Sturgeon no doubt feels very at home.
If the UK is going to have problems over the next few years I think that the EU is going to have many more. WHY oh WHY should we volunteer ourselves for that?
A democracy unequalled in the world? Is Brexit a true democratic decision? I don’t thimk so. See: https://euromeblog.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/is-brexit-a-true-democratic-decision/
Frankly, those who couldn’t be bothered to vote or form an opinion on the issue of EU membership chose to exclude themselves from the decision, and de facto opted to accept whatever result was returned by those who did vote.
Moreover, it was clear from the Act of Parliament which authorised the referendum and was clearly stated in the question on the Ballot Paper, that this was a UK wide ballot, the result of which would be a consensus of the will of the whole UK.
Being a Scottish Unionist, who lives in Scotland, I voted to leave the EU because I believe it to be in the best interest of myself, my family, and future generations of my countrymen, and despite realising that the SNP would shamelessly try to use the type of result that seemed likely to be returned to agitate for a second independence referendum I voted as my conscience dictated.
The result for Brexit was a democratically fair result and should be implemented by our Government. Hopefully our new Prime Minister Theresa May will carry through on her commitment to do so, unlike her predecessor David Cameron who reneged on his pre referendum promises to continue as Prime Minister in the event of a Brexit vote and lead Britain out of the EU.
Above I meant 8 billion dollar oil revenue not 8 million dollar – sorry for any confusion.
To Rene Aga Comment,
I do not know where you live but it must be a wonderful place where everyone votes, and the politicians do exactly what they are asked. And is the sky Pink on your planet?
This Brexit Vote has been on the go since I believe it 2009 but with murmurs for years before that. I am sure there is a perfectly good reason why the 27.8% of the UK population failed to attend but they all had warning to get there vote in. And this is where we are Democratic. We had a choice.
I have heard Remainers in TV discussions/interviews who are now stating the public shouldn’t have had the vote it was too important. Oh yeah leave it too the politicians. Hmmmm
This debate is about Scotland and the UK. Brexit is on another discussion.
But it is your free democratic choice where you want to type!
Oh and before I go it might be interesting for you to see what your countries administration fee is for the EU.
Pasted below is the UK EU budget 2015
Heading 5: Administration. Expenditure for Heading 5 is on the functioning of the EU institutions and includes remuneration and allowances for staff and members, pension costs, and rent and other building costs.
Payments for 2015 under Heading 5 have been set at €8.7 billion (£6.7 billion), a 3.0 per cent increase compared to 2014.
So if the UK pays that administration fee out of its fund, Scotland would have to pay its own share. Now there’s a thought
Yes it was a democratic decision. Scotland as I and Robert said is part of the UK a majority voted to keep it that way.Two thirds of Scots voted to stay in the EU and yes their views are important, but one third voted to leave, their views should also be seen as valid by Nicola Sturgeon.
As soon as the leave UK referendum was over the SNP were planning another. You can’t cherry pick democracy by having referendum upon referendum until you get the answer you want. As Scottish first minister Nicola should reflect the view of EVERY Scot, not just the ones that suit her own agenda.
There was a referendum that took us into the EU, only a referendum could take us out, that is democracy.
I wish Theresa May all the best as our new PM, she certainly seems to have the strength needed to take the UK forward — all of the UK –of which Scotland can be a very proud part.
Was it really a democratic decision? If it was than it was a democratic decision of low quality. Look here: https://euromeblog.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/is-brexit-a-true-democratic-decision/
The referendum vote was for me a very hard decision, I had innumerable personal reasons to stay in the EU and at the same time a strong desire for brexit, I actually didn’t know which way I would vote until in the booth. It was probably a hard decision for many;for that very reason any vote placed should be respected and deemed of value by all.
Janny.
In earlier posts you said that at the independence referendum you voted to remain in the UK, and at the recent EU referendum you voted to remain in the EU.
Given that from your posts I detect a certain disdain for the EU, and your observation that all of the mainstream Party’s were pro EU and talking up the likelihood of indyref2 in the event of the circumstances that have arisen, am I correct in concluding that your decision to vote to remain in the EU was chiefly biased by a belief that a remain victory was the only way to prevent the discord and division currently being sown by the SNP, and secure Scotland’s place in the Union?
In short, did the SNP’s stated position on the EU make you vote for totally the opposite to what you really wanted?
Apparently people like to quote other people as an argument, but because things are written down like fables and stories doesn’t make them true.
Quote time
“Democracy is a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.”
It should then read if people DO NOT turn up to make their voice heard then they in fact Acquiesce by their deafening silence.
As for the percentage that did vote but was outnumbered have to deal with it. When I went to bed on the night of the referendum I thought there was no way we would be leaving (After actually looking into it, not blogs but government and EU reports), that’s why I voted leave. Lets hope the Scots and other persons not happy really into it and find out that EU sponsored funding is our own finances being re labeled. My maths are crude and rudimentary but when I see 2014 to 2020 EU local policies coming to £24 billion its strange that UK EU budget is returned in local policies is aprox £4 billion a year, because to a simpleton 6 x4 = 24
Another Quote. Voltaire
“It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.”
The EU did not seduce most of us.
Of course the EU is not perfect and could be improved. But if you don’t like the EU you cannot change it from outside, you must do it inside as a member. With Brexit Britain has broken the equilibrium of power within the UE, which now will be hold by Germany and France. Is this better for the EU?
I do think that now England once again has a strong lady as leader Theresa May l dont think Scotland will be pushing to join the EU.Scotland always will be part of England .lts not connected to Europe.lnfact l could possibly see Holland and scandanavian countries breaking away next.l think Germany has tried to control the EU for too long . That could be the problem.Good luck England your the head of the Commonwealth and you should be a strong leader once again.With all the United Kingdom behind you.England is a leading country and it will succeed bt breaking away.
Dear Rene,
You can’t change the EU, that was the point of Brexit. When an un elected organisation that can push through its own mandates by brute force or nefarious methods, (which cannot be denied), please tell us how it can be changed. But back to the Scot debate, Westminster should also look at why there is a divide in the UK, and please don’t give a reason that goes back to the middle ages, Times change and so should our mindset. Its just that 52% do not want to be in an unelected organisation, that holds so much clout and cost so much. Remember America’s cry “No taxation without representation”
The 1975 election was about trade, the Common market as it was. And if you look at that election,parts of Scotland were Very Anti EEC the rest just accepting it.
Dear Gerry,
I do not see why the EU could not be changed for the better aliminating what is not acceptable. The EU is a democratic institution where all europeans have a vote, just like the British people with Brexit. Anyhow for me a referendum with rules as applied in Brexit do not seem of very good democratic quality, because it creates division. See why in my article in my blog: https://euromeblog.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/is-brexit-a-true-democratic-decision/
Your going off track this debate is about Scotland Independence after Brexit vote not how the EU should be. The SEA 1987 (Single European Act) deals with about 80% of EU legislation and that only needs a majority. EU democracy. Ok for one not for others.
Brexit was a majority of the actual voters. When the similar equation/rule applied to this vote, how come the remaining moaners don’t like it. The EU uses exactly the same principle. Majority rule.
Coming from and living in Scotland in my experience the sky is very rarely a pretty colour! But joking aside ,
I like many others I suspect considered our decisions in each referendum very carefully and therefore dislike intensely the fact that the powers that be think we should hold another referendum to ‘correct’ a majority vote. Like it or not we are honour bound to respect the outcome or we are lost. As I said I agonised over my decision and knew that whatever the result the UK would have a very rough ride ahead.
We have been fortunate that the transition has been as fast as it has. The world market hates uncertainty but already fiscal matters are settling down and not fluctuating so wildly ( I am not so niaive as to think it it good,just steadying) This steadying has been due to the forming of a speedy government led by Theresa May who not having voted for brexit herself has done an exceptional job in choosing a cabinet that unites all factions to go forward from the majority national vote. It is now incumbent on all of the parties to unite for the good of our nation so as not to rock the boat, party politics can come later and as voters we should do the same ( I did not vote for this party) but I am thankful that it has played out the way it has for all our sakes.
I am old enough to remember the ‘ before’ the EU. And it may surprise you to know that we travelled and traded with Europe and the rest of the world very successfully, we were by no means a backward bankrupt nation !
We will be ok in the end even if it takes a while, maybe years in fact we will do well if we stick together and DON’T PANIC !!!
Kudos Janny
Well said Jannt! Couldn’t agree more.
Quite correct, Janny. Also, just remember that those over the border are getting fed up with the likes of the totally delusioned Sturgeon and her merry band of SNP, endeavouring to hold the UK to ransom yet again. There could well be a referendum in the rest of the UK as to whether or not Scotland should stay in the UK and if it goes against Scotland, then that will certainly focus the minds of the SNP who will have to come up with answers. If the SNP are stupid enough to try to join the EU, then I suggest those who can leave Scotland do so, as many companies are quietly so doing and have been for some time. Many of you will have read and seen on television the number of countries now contacting the Brexit team in order to do business with the UK. The EU has had its day and I suggest will implode within 5 years, thus leaving Scotland in a very precarious position having had to probably accept the Euro. Just one other point worth mentioning. Denmark. Finland, S!ovakia and Ireland all have around the same population as Scotland. Each pays between 1 – 4 billion Euros every year to the EU. Scotland has around 5.5 million in population with only just over 2.5 million in work. How will Scotland be able to afford this vast sum as well as paying for everything else?
I think Scotland should better not be underestimated. Maybe offices of european companies could change their main offices of GB to Scotland. Also Scotland has a very innovative university. Read: http://alchemy.cchem.berkeley.edu/static/pdf/innovativechemistry.pdf
Renne, the problem is, Scotland is a very low wage economy and this would not attract the highly skilled workforce who are mainly in the south east of England. For example, there is virtually no unemployment in places such as Milton Keynes where people work in the private sector, unlike here where a vast amount work in the public sector. There is no reason at all why Scottish universities should not seek funding via places such as Canada, America, Australia etc. Perhaps the various Chancellors within our University institutions should get off their backsides and actually go out and compete in the real world, instead of being cushioned by the EU.
I get the feeling Scotland wants to stay with eu but they also want to retain full freedom with United Kingdom make ip your mind Scotland you cant have both and l hope the new Primeminister of England states that clearly. That the scots wont have the freedom they now have with England.If they do vote to go eu l hope England instantly stops freedom with the Scots coming into England .You want your cake and eat it to. Typical left wing attitude
Brexit has organised a mess: Scotland and Northern Ireland against England and Wales. And London the same. What means real democracy? About half the people against about half the people? See: euromeblog.wordpress.com
15/11/2017 John Bruton, former Irish Prime Minister (Taoiseach), has responded to this comment.
So right, Carol. What Scotland desperately needs is a political party who will actually get on with running the country. This damn SNP has and will continue to drive Scotland even lower than we are already are as we see we have zero growth since the end of last year. Companies are leaving and will continue to so do. There is no one within the SNP with any business accum at all as virtually all have worked in the public sector and have no idea of how to make money, but they sure know to spend it – other people’s, that is. If there is another referendum, don’t count on the rest of the UK to want to keep Scotland in the Union as they have had enough. The latest talks in Wales have been interesting with the guy from Northern Ireland Unionist party telling Sturgeon to fall in line with the rest of the UK and accept Brexit. Oh, that she would. To her and her SNP acolytes, there is only one game in town and that is independence. Never mind the economy going down the tubes, people losing their jobs, unable to pay their mortgages or rents, independence comes above everything. As I have said before, those who can, make ready to leave the sinking ship. Any of you with any money, move it over the border as soon as mention is made of a new referendum. If there is a Yes vote, you can be sure there will be restrictions on taking your money out of Scotland.
Something else I find very worrying about independence is NS saying that the minute we do we will get rid of Trident. This is all very well for her ideology but what about the 16thousand jobs on the Clyde. She says the gap will be filled with a new Clyde industry but this seems far too airy fairy for me and probably for the 16 thousand who will be out of a job!
Oh ,and about Europe,her ‘talks ‘ with the EU about Scotland’s future was not quite the success that she made out, they are quoted as saying that they only spoke to her as representative of Scotland as it would have been rude not to! They have no intention of considering Scotland as part of the UK and have reaffirmed that as independent Scotland would have to reapply.Like I said she is making us look foolish!
Once again, Janny, quite agree with you. You only have to look over to Dunoon to understand exactly what will happen to Helensburgh and surrounding areas. I can remember when Dunoon was a thriving place when the Americans were in Holyloch. There were hotels, restaurants, shops, pubs, clubs (and don’t forget the taxis) all thriving with hustle and bustle. Now look at the place. Run down, foreclosures all over the place. No work. Is this is what Sturgeon really wants to do to a very prosperous area? At the last referendum, Salmond blustered about using the site of Faslane for military, once Trident was gone, for around 100 personnel. Where were the others going to work? Sweeping the streets? Yes, Sturgeon nipping over to Europe was not her finest hour by any means but, there again, she must have thought all her Christmases had come true when Scotland voted to remain in the EU in order for her to relaunch yet another referendum.