On 23 June 2016, the UK will hold a referendum on membership of the European Union. The starting pistol has been fired (though, in truth, both teams have been jogging along for some time already).
Over the course of the referendum campaign, Debating Europe will be launching a series of debates with politicians and experts from across the United Kingdom. We will be putting your questions and comments to them on “Brexit”, and publishing the responses online. If you want to take part in the debate, then fill out the form below with your comment!
Supporters of British membership of the EU argue that the economic costs of leaving could be high. In response to fears of Brexit, the pound recently suffered its biggest one-day loss since 2009, and a group of major business leaders have signed a letter arguing that jobs could be lost and the economy put at risk.
Campaigners to leave point out that two-thirds of FTSE 100 firms did not sign the letter, and that stock markets have been relatively unmoved so far.
Have you already made your mind up which way to vote? Do YOU think Britain should leave the European Union? Let us know what you think in the poll below:
The economy and trade will be among the top issues during the referendum campaign. We had a comment sent in from Julia, who believes that leaving the EU would be enormously beneficial to the UK’s trade, both with Europe and the rest of the world. She believes that a Britain outside the EU would be able to negotiate free trade agreements with other countries, such as those in the Commonwealth.
To get a reaction, we put Julia’s comment to John Redwood, Conservative MP for Wokingham. How did he think “Brexit” would affect the UK’s trade relations?
Leaving the European Union would probably help the UK’s trade with the EU, and it would certainly help the UK’s trade with the rest of the world. One of the problems of our membership of the European Union, Julia, is that we’ve been a member for 43 years and the Union has still not managed to negotiate a free trade agreement for us with China, India, the United States of America, or Brazil, all very important markets that we wish to deal more with. And nor will they let the United Kingdom negotiate our own free trade agreement, whereas we think we would be able to do that quite quickly and to our benefit.
As for trade with the rest of the EU, we don’t see any reason why it should be damaged. I have spoken to senior representatives of the German government and they have rightly made it clear to me that if the United Kingdom leaves they wouldn’t wish to see new tariffs or barriers imposed on their trade with us, and that’s not surprising because Germany sells us twice as much as we sell Germany. Indeed, we have a trade deficit with the whole of the rest of the European Union. Outside the EU, I would be very happy for us to continue to allow in all the current imports we take from the rest of the EU with no additional barriers, and in return I’m quite sure that the rest of the European Union would want to continue to accept United Kingdom exports…
For another perspective, we also spoke to Anthony Zacharzewski, Director of the Democratic Society (speaking here in a personal capacity). What would he say to Julia?
I think the hardest question to answer is what is going to happen to trade and the economic relations between the UK and the rest of the EU. The simple reason is that nobody knows exactly what the arrangement that would come afterwards would look like. If you look at the treaties, you have two years, and maybe more, to negotiate a new trading relationship with Europe after you leave. But the problem with that is that it’s difficult to predict what it could look like.
There’s something called the European Economic Area (EEA). We might be part of that, and in that case we’d still be in the Single Market, but we’d probably still have free movement and all of the other arrangements that look quite similar to what we have today. If you wanted to get farther away from Europe and maybe put up barriers to immigration and things like that, you’d need to negotiate a special deal. And no-one knows what it could look like. But it seems unlikely that any of the European countries that we’d be turning our backs on would want to give us a really sweet free trade deal without having free movement and other parts of the European Union rules as well.
Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU? How would Brexit affect the British economy? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
If London wants to be the financial centre maybe yes
The VAST majority of the FTSE 100 are not based in the continental EU.
Furthermore, companies locate to London to hedge their currencies against the Euro or the $ etc etc
Being in the EU is NOT such a major factor for London in the non-Euro UK.
We should get out now and f**king leg it and think how looky we are to leave the EU shafted
If UK wants to leave….then it should be free to do so. If the allegedly tolerant EU would try to rig up the referendum voting it means just one thing….that EUMS have become prisoners of an Evil Union
Our only hope is Britain in such undemocratic times when our continent is inundated by antisocial, undocumented migrants. Go Britain and give a huge slap to the Merkel-JUNKer pair!
a speach about democracy from Europes last dictator who literally built a stadium in his private property.
French citizens where right when they voted NO to EU with a 60% majority. Politicians which denied this fact and engaged France in this tax escape vampirization system are traitors and will be condemned in a very near futur.
This entire conservative debate is so stupid, noone really needs this discussion at the moment. The EU struggles with wars in the East and South of it’s borders, and Britain has nothing better to do than forcing the EU to debate social benefits for migrants in the common market area. This behaviour of the British elite is, pardon this judgement, miscalculated, irrational and highly confrontational towards Britains neighboring countries and societies. For outside observers it is now questionable if the otherwise realistic Brits are really able to think seriously abouth whether it is wise to behave like the bull in the china shop. This entire debate to me indicates that a substantial part of the British society has still not understood what the European project is about.
The EU forced the debate to be about social benefits – the UK initially wanted it to be about controlling EU immigration.
Worse still, beggar nations like the Czech republic wanted to hold up the sham agreement based on the effect proposed social payment changes would have on 500 Czech families!
Yes it has a lot of impact on our lives in the UK. We pay the EU about 55mllion pounds a day imagine what can be done with such amounts of money! : (
The “Visigreed 4” eastern european nations through their petty demands and sheer greed may well have doomed the eu – and perhaps with “partners” like those collapse will be a necessary evil.
These are the countries that only take – what contribution do they make to the common good?
” This entire debate to me indicates that a substantial part of the British society has still not understood what the European project is about.”
That, or we have! “Ever closer union” was a term that only appeared after “British society” was last given a say on the matter in 1975.
The “yes” vote was for the EEC. the Common Market. A free trade area.
In retrospect I can see that as massive miss-selling.
“The behaviour of the British elite” Well it’s a plebiscite, not something decided by our aristocracy, unless you mean we all consider ourselves better than any European citizen. Not these days.
As for timing, the British population have wanted this for years…
” whether it is wise to behave like the bull in the china shop”
Just lie down and submit, then?
Just believe that whatever is done to us and for us is good for us.
Of course, Big Brother.
I like Europe. The EU, however… another story.
Social Union? NO NO NO!
Free Economic Trade? YES YES YES!
Once the EU is gone, trade will never be “free”. You Brits just don’t get it.
You won’t suck out resources via trade but force the poor people out.
This is what Britain is. We’d (the EU) have to get rid of Britain to fulfill the EU unity.
Wow Peter. I am not sure making such wild assumptions about British people is wise. There are some British people taking this decision very seriously.
Would love to h3ar what you believe the European project is about?
I think you’ll all find that the European project was NOT what the UK signed up for. And it’s certainly NOT something I would support. We joined an organisation set up to accommodate easy trade (a great idea, no doubt about that) and ended up with yet another bunch of politicians running our daily affairs and telling us how we can and can’t live (a terrible idea, politicians are a very expensive waste of oxygen with no real concept of the struggles of the people they are supposed to represent most of the time). I really don’t see why people who don’t earn as much as other people, maybe left education at an earlier age (most likely to help contribute financially to the family they belong to who struggle to get by rather than struggle for another 5 years) are automatically considered by the higher earners to be second rate citizenry unable to think for themselves. And what’s more, is when we actually got asked the question of if we wanted to be on board with an ever evolving EU (and sadly by evolving i don’t mean becoming more sophisticated) until we would end up who knows where. It’s like playing a sport where the rules changed from football to rugby while the game was still being played and it still hadn’t finished. What will it look like after another 40 years? Tennis maybe? Who in their right mind could be ok with that degree of no control over their own destiny, the future of their children’s society? You say we don’t understand what the European project is, maybe that’s because it hasn’t finished deciding yet, and since we seem to only get asked how we feel about any of these decisions every 40 years or so we chose not to adopt a wait and see attitude about it. If that makes me stupid or inferior intellectually in your opinions then guess what my opinion of you is.
Leave now Completely… The Britons kept their Currency, the Sterling Pound, which was, is & will be proven, Their Greatest Decision ever!!!
It just takes the hammering now, and it is only starting.
What a good political strategy.. While the pakistani try to force the eu borders…. The pakistani from the GB government try to keep people attention in north… Ahahah pathetic
Pakistan never wanted to join Arab League .
Leave Immediately and remain a free nation of Europe, not a slave of Germany!
can UK stay and Germany leave the union? the only time that Europe prospered was with a divided Germany and Berlin….
I have wrote this before Britain has more going for it the any Europe country,just look how many Europe countries who will back Britain,I have a list which has been sent to me,know wonder the eu is worried when they look at the list in Brussels eight. Eu countries want to leave another two who never joined Europe and ready to trade with Britain,and they only now. Give France twelve months before they leave.germany .spain.portugal also know this
Οnly with full membership may stay in E.U. and not any exemption.
“Οnly with full membership may stay in E.U. and not any exemption.”
I agree in so far as a semi-detached and “bothersome” UK is not likely to be well-received or treated after a “remain” vote. Why should it expect to be?
One more reason to vote “leave.”
True. In is in, out is out. The enemy must not be given rights in the EU.
We cannot accept an EU with 2, 3 or more “speed”. All countries need to respect treaties and decisions and help to build a supranational country…
For the EU to prosper, the influence of France MUST be reduced.
Fabrice Soulié “All countries need to respect treaties and decisions and help to build a supranational country…”
Agreed. Or leave. Given the need for reform in the EU and its lack of willingness to undertake it, I make that a “leave” proposition
There is already a EU with minimum of 2 speed economy.
Nothern EU and Southern EU.
A supranational country? You can`t put the different European countries in one EU box.
Working together as during the EC YES! Never as in the current EU.
Who wants a supranational country? I don’t. The beauty of Europe is in its diversity of nations, cultures, traditions, languages and peoples. A mixed pot is just a soggy stew.
Yes, well said. The cleaner we are the better. We can make the common army, common secret services, common external border etc, without the “concerns” of the underminers.
Yes take back control we haven’t got room for all these immigrants 11million in turkey are waiting to come here !! LEAVE if they come here they will have to cut down trees to build houses for them which means no trees no tress no oxygen
A sovereign nation gets a once in a lifetime chance to extricate itself from an unelected, corrupt, broke unsafe mess . A new adventure rather than an ever closer socialist disaster. What right minded person would not vote leave .
and so say all of us!! :)
Let us hope they are smart enough to leave.
We are just a cash cow for the world and its neighbours and mass immigration has been forced on us which we didn’t want.we are at breaking point.the Nhs is screwed up our kids are suffering because of over crowding schools and can’t even get into there chosen schools.our own are made homeless if they can’t afford the rent..food banks to feed our own people yet scrounges come here and get everything free.i don’t care about refugees or asylum seekers stay in your own country and fight for it.when we were getting bombed in the war we didn’t flee and claim asylum elsewhere
How many safe countries have they passed through to get here? It’s time to leave and let themselves destroy each other with there idiotic laws and policies
You are mixing up things. Do you think that the huge number of refugees is to blame on the EU? To some extent today’s mess is caused by the war in Iraq, which was also supported by the UK.
What role should the UK have in the current refugee crisis? You say, you don’t care about them. Does that mean that the UK should not bother at all about what is happening in Italy and Greece?
Is the EU to blame for the growing gab between the rich and the poor? Might it not be that some of it is due to the financial crisis? Might it not be that a part of the problem is tax evasion, something some countries in the EU such as Germany and France would like to tackle?
@ Martin………….not sure who is more mixed up here?
The EU as a pure economic block- measured by Intra- & Extra- EU trade is the largest economy in the world and remains so with a GDP per head of ~€25 000 for its 500 million consumers- despite many hick ups!
This is a guarantee for Europe’s stability & prosperity. The EU market is the most open & fairest to developing countries and imports more from the 89 LCD & Developing countries under the Generalised Scheme of Preferences (GSP) than the US, Canada, Japan and China put together. In that department the EU is a global leader & scores top points!
It is the achievements on the economic front which guarantees Europe’s general stability & well being. This hard won advantage is however undermined and gambled away by Suzerain Brussels- due to their over eager political & social policies- specifically the (failed Dublin Accord) and exploding refugee chaos and the “forced” cultural integration- highhandedly championed by ‘Trollette Merkel” who suffers from delusions and/or grandeur.
Either Ma Merkel needs to go or the UK should start the “rejuvenation” process.
I Thinks Britain want to go out from EU they want to stop coming to UK people from EU ,But don’t think how much illigal people from non EU is in UK now!!!! People don’t thinks no more holiday home in Spain etc where to spend products? I’m not political non UK citizens I live in this country from long time should I’m need go out?This is my country now.No benefit just legal work I Thinks this is reason benefit and work is not true that people from EU take job from British people.
when people go to Spain or France they can not claim benefits, they take there own money to buy there holiday home and put money into the country. And pay for there own health care if they stay there. immigration is not all bad, but any country can only take so many or they will put a strain on the school, NHS and housing.
The Uk simply hates and fears Europe, that’s all. They don’t mind if 5 million indians are coming in the UK, they mind 300 thousand Europeans. I say, out with the rubbish.
Have to stay – cannot have one’s cake and eat it.
That’s just it – some crappy nations in the EU are eating the UK’s considerable slice of cake without net-contributing to same.
Out out out lets leave the corrupt evil nasty eu
We must #ChangEU!
UK has to stay and all the European politic must face eurocracy with a political action in order to give us a democratic EU.
Like a big country, each state must become a region of the United states of Europe!
There is nothing democratic about the eu my friend it is an elitist institution that throws dictats at the people of Europe and erodes sovereign laws of the peple and has made the eoro zone an easier place to gain access for terrorists
There is according to stats 11% unemployment in europe excluding Britain 11% of over 500 million you work that one out and then tell me where the housing and hospitals schools and all the infrastructure are to cope with the immigration explosion and who pays for it we have ex soldiers on the streets and a failing nhs in Britain the list goes on
So we must exit eu restore laws and Border control get our own house in order then look at problems elsewhere secondly
Luciano Lobosco February 23rd, 2016
“all the European politic must face eurocracy with a political action in order to give us a democratic EU.”
Do you really believe that is going to happen?
Resistance to reform has been too effective for too long, with a focus rather on (unbalanced) expansion.
In other two control and balance mass immigration and mass emigration. We need to leave the EU because that the frist solution, we cannot be guaranteed reforms and solid negotiations in the European union. Are you following the refugees crisis, each European union members must take in certain numbers of refugees or be fine €250,000 per person or whatever. Is this the kind of circumstances we can handle? We are currently not taking into consideration ,the terrorists attacks across Europe, the radicalism of European born Young people who are going to fight in Syria. Borders without limited control is the worst thing that can happen to any reasonable country. Crimes rate will go up, human trafficking, prostitution, drugs smuggling, break down of law and order, housing crisis which we are already facing in United Kingdom. Many more problems, this madness must stop !!! Should start in and union at the expense of the freedom, well being of the people of the UK
Ugh! Why? This will NEVER work for the UK.
And who voted for the over generous foreign aid budget, I don’t remember having a vote on that.
I don’t understand why we can’t have a free trade agreement, without all the political ties and meddling …Just like we had when it was the EEC? That’s what people voted for in the 1975 referendum.. but that’s not what we’ve got now. No-one asked for a centralised EU Government, freedom of movement of 500M people and an EU court that supersedes the highest court in our land …No-one voted to surrender a portion of British sovereignty!! Of course it’s possible to trade without the meddling… That’s what we had, and that’s what we need to get back! …And if anybody thinks it’s not possible, then you need to understand that the UK is the EU’s biggest market. There was a record trade deficit of £8.1bn last Oct! The French farmers would form road blockades again if they couldn’t sell to us any more – they’d be ruined!! I shall be voting to Leave (in case you hadn’t sussed that!?!)
to some extent it would be possible to have a trade agreement without shared political institutions and courts. But very soon things get complicated and demand for institutions. For instance, if would want to trade products between countries, you need to define standards and rules for them. For example, if you want to sell groceries, you must comply with some rules (about ingredients, origin, and allergy). If those rules are different in each country, you have a mess and many market barriers. Each country needs to agree about the standard with each country and – even then – no unilateral changes are possible. Even in such a scenario in a case of conflict a court needs to judge. The idea of the EU is not to have bilateral agreements between single countries but have common recognized institutions.
Nevertheless, I agree that many aspects of today’s EU are poorly handled. As a computer scientist, I would express it this way: good idea, bad implementation. So why not fix the implementation? For UK-citizens, how would a “good” EU look like? What are the common interests among the countries that can be realized more easily with a joint effort?
@Martin U………………………..things are complicated enough!
Technical trade issues do not need a EU totalitarian state! They are less infringing matters on EU-rope’s society than social & political ones. Trade technicalities can/are easier resolved by EU internal or global trade negotiations, seeking consensus e.g. with the World Trade Organisation (WTO- Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade).
The EU is very well equipped and has action plans & institutions in place when imports are considered e.g. unfair: like anti-dumping, anti-subsidy and safeguard complaints. The gripe is, that seemingly similar safeguards to protect infringements of our social norms & stability are blatantly sabotaged, minimized & ignored in favor of a destructive capitalistic (NWO) agenda and unwanted but enforced unification’s on political & social levels- extending & creating this grand “EU ideal”- or illusion!
Important is to remain highly vigilant about ongoing TTIP negotiations- to stop politician- not from a favorable business deal for all citizens- but from further infringements against our sovereignty, personal & social well-being and safeguarding us from ANOTHER combined corrupt, political- corporate treaty. Update on TTIP:
UK could re-join EFTA and help develop that free trade organisation.
england should never be let in unless you do what every other country had to do. And as for me only the hate against germany makes you even want to talk… you lost your empire and reserve currency your determination to destroy germany the u s took all of your gold .and now no more empire and blame Germany again. churchill said if Germany comes up again the war was for not…Nobody works as hard than Germany. i think Germany has become the cash cow of the world Please stop hating Germany it did you no good
Leave as soon as possible
Stay in 🇬🇧 Better together!
There are too many rotten apples in the EU barrel at present – the UK is being tainted by said nations.
Please go, we don’t need you
Yes, after all, there’s plenty of other rich countries queuing up to join the EU who can contribute as much as us isn’t there?
Not yet you don’t. I just noticed today Italian citizens want a referendum (ipsos mori poll) 60% AND 48% would vote OUT.
yes, we should get rid of our enemies instead of empowering them to hinder our Europe. We would have long created a European Army, Border, secret services etc. if it weren’t for a few barely disguised enemies that ALWAYS undermined everything. We need a clean, united EU so who can’t bare it just GO!!!
Leave, leave, leave, forget the scaremongering, dirty tactics,, Britain will only get worst if we stay in,, we’ll be run from EU instead of here at home,, (Britain) where the British government is,,, man up cameron
One thing I did laugh at I got a circular about all the employment benefits we get from Europe now. I say this speak to someone on zero hour contract and all the employee benefits from Europe becomes meaningless.
Out before June
Iceland done it and got rid of corporate banks and its economy doing well…
Iceland was never a member.
but Greenland wass
Iceland declared default, do you remember this?
Stay or die but its just a ballsed up thatcher moment ,there’s lots wrong but he’s not up to fixing it or anything
Sponsored by ‘Brussels ‘ , what is it to do with them ????? This is our choice and we don’t need any interference from outside the UK. You will be the first to. Know when we will know on what date we will be ruled by our elected parliament , and control our own borders !!!!! Happy Days X
Leave! For the sake of the UK!🇬🇧 They’ll lie and fiddle to keep us in!
I think we should leave. We built up this once great country after the war and we can do it again. We dont need unelected people we never voted for poking there noses into our affairs. We want our elected goverment and mps voted for by us, the british people running our country . I want to see more jobs for british workers and less jobs and benifits going to eastern european workers. Lets make britain great again☺
as an Italian citizen, I am worried that the British people could actually leave the EU. Nevertheless, I strongly support your right to vote about it. My personal view is that the EU, UK and Europe would be better off if the UK stayed, though. Not for the money, but because the EU is stronger with the UK as a country with European values and culture. I think, much of the negative energy about the EU is emotional, rather than rational (just like the vote in Scotland was).
Who are you referring to by “unelected people”, the commission? I fully agree with you that the commission should be elected by the voters as well.
However, let’s not forget that most members of the House of Lords aren’t elected either.
Martin, there´s nothing that says UK can´t continue working with individual countries and exchanging values and culture if they leave. Perhaps what you have to understand is that the UK joined a TRADING union, not a political union and this is basically the crux of the matter. The EU has changed beyond all recognition towards a European state. The British people are extremely individualistic as a nation. So they are acting out from a state of emotion rather than facts which are not readily available.
Guys – Read the Red House report.
This tells you when the EU blueprint was written – 1944
It tells you how the post war Germany will unite Europe into 1 Superstate with Germany calling the shots.
It was conceived and enacted by German industrial Giants and started the whole EU debacle and is perpetuated by subsequent governments.
Anyone who wants to know how this united Europe started and the aims of it should read the report.
Get out. Get out while we can.
Let the uk leave. But, in doing so, ban all the british people from entering any foreign european country, stop all trade buying/selling with them and see how well they will do with their shitty weather and their own products only for so many people on such little land :3
It’s because of attitudes like yours we NEED to get out, frankly I HATE having an EU passport and driving licence, because I’m proud of being British, proud of the country my family fought two world wars for, and don’t forget WE didn’t run away, we fought for Europe, now we need to let Europe clear up their own mess and get back to being the great sovereign state we once were! We were doing far better outside of the EU and no one voted to join, was supposed to be a Common Market, but the people were conned, just like “Dave” is trying to do now!
Didn’t get your chance to come to the UK, Edvinas?
”Am afraid that is why we are so out of touch with our supporters and ex supporters views on the EU and immigration” Kate Hoey MP.
Video highlights of cross-party Grassroots Out rally, London: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TE5dAEgwlQ
If they are wise, they will leave the EU. The ECM was a good move…the EU is a fiasco.
I’d vote to leave if i could be sure the Human Rights Act wasn’t going to be scrapped shortly afterwards……..
We had a much better rights of man act before the Human Rights Act.
It is claimed that 70% of our laws come from the EU. But people never seem to be able to quote a specific law that is actually bad. I can think of loads that come from Westminster. I can’t follow the logic. Get rid of the EU and we’ll have three times as many bad laws, surely?
Given that the EU is considered more corrupt than the UK (see TI Corruption Perceptions Index for proof) your argument is both naive and worrying!
Many people from the UK and the Commonwealth white, brown and black gave their lives for a democratic peace in Europe.
The EU is not democratic, the UK cannot change it, ergo we must go!
We traded with Europe centuries before the creation of the EU. This is globalization by steps. No to the corrupt and phoney EU, created with a hidden agenda.
O U T N O W!
I feel sure the British people will vote to stay in the EU. It is the only way to ensure peace and a better future for the generations which will follow.
The EU is institutionally RACIST toward the UK – only a pro-EU zealot would deny as such!
As a British citizen I totally disagree! There is no peace with the rise of far left and far right parties across Europe. Vote leave on June 23rd!!!
We had peace before the EU.
Leave ,for every pound we put in we only get £0.46 back. It’s like getting taxed by the EU At a higher rate
I don’t doubt your statistic but do you have the source as I’d like to use it with said source.
Leave. Cameron is saying Boris is wrong. Sorry “call me Dave” it’s you that’s got it wrong, not to mention the paltry deal that you think you got last week. Let’s hope the thinking people win and it’s OUT!!!
Definitely voting to LEAVE!
So Mr. Cameron says that if we leave the European Union we will suffer by having ‘jungle’ camps setting up in Kent. REALLY? Why I ask? The only reason that the French are suffering from having the camps at the their ports is because they allowed the transients to reach those ports in the first place.
Do you REALLY believe Mr. Cameron that we will have similar camps setting up in Kent … or anywhere else? Why would they? The reason the camps are where they are NOW is because they want to get over HERE! Once here they would disperse all over the UK, as all the legal AND illegal immigrants do now already! Why would it be any different if we left the EU??
And, may I say, if indeed the French do decide to allow them to travel to the UK once we leave the EU, it DOES NOT mean we have to ALLOW them IN. We can be like all other countries and REFUSE entrance UNLESS they have the SKILLS we need, or in the very few GENUINE CASES of refuge for children in danger.
Many people blame EU membership on this illegal migrant crisis. How many people remember that if their government has not helped to stage revolutions in the Arabian land so as to facilitate the American return to Asia Pacific, would there be so many wars and illegal immigrants created in Africa and the Arabian land? Now the Americans have escaped to the relatively peaceful Asia Pacific to stir up confrontation there but leaving Europe to cope with the mess it has left behind!
How is it possible for countries which are part of the EU such as France not to have genuine asylum seekers claim asylum in their country? Or if the first safe country they land at?
Seeing the calais/dunkirk camps is an astonishing failure of the safe EU countries these people have managed to come through. I don’t understand how these people at these camps believe they can choose which country they want to go to? If I was fleeing persecution and the country next door was safe I’d go there. I wouldn’t travel thousand of miles because I hear the UK doesn’t scrimp on it’s benefits!!
If the UK leaves. we will do as we did before, We had HM Immigration and Customs on the Border who would turn them straight back to France if they tried to sneak in.
I think the money that it costs to be a member of the EU, 55 million per day. The loss of statehood and self determination, the loss of court powers. Paying benefits to kids that have never set foot in the country, the strain on our NHS being open to any EU Citizen. The fact they have stole our fishing grounds and destroyed that industry. Never helped save the mining, or the Car Industry, or the Steel Industry. It makes you think they are trying to destroy us without a bullet being fired. And I haven’t even mentioned the immigration, or the fact that 2 million of our jobs are lost to ecconomic migrants.
London is overrun and our language is hardly spoken. It’s time to get out we buy more from the EU because they have made sure we have nothing left to sell.
Well said – Don’t forget the farmers who went out of business – had to pour milk down the drains as the EU butter mountain meant it was worthless ! Small farms on this country are now totally wiped out whilst in Norway a farm might have only 20 animals but the farmers are doing well, or course they’re not in the EU – funny that!
Europe, as a union, has failed. Maybe the exit is the best solution for British
And obey the EU, don’t forget that.
If we come out, we save directly £55m a day. That would leave quite a hole in the EU budget. Does anyone readily know what the UK’s percentage of the whole is?
In in in in n. Good save the queen
We have to go, the Europe that was is gone and a monster has taken its place. We need to go and not rejoin until it’s all about trade again
It’s More than a vote over the EU
A YES means we will BECOME SLOWLY BUT SURELY AN ISLAMIC STATE
VOTE NO TO EU AND ISLAM
THIS IS THE CHOICE
The thought just came to me – suppose we could VOTE for who WE want in Brussels to run the EU – would that make a difference to your IN/OUT decision?
I doubt it, the main issue with the EU is no one is actually in charge. You have 28 countries arguing in the best interests of themselves and clearly for anything to happen there has to be winners and losers. The UK is a net loser and which is why we are getting out
Of course! But no cartels deciding on laws. The Truth is that, right at the top, the politicians are pawns of the huge corporates, the banking and global financial interests, and the EU is their vehicle for seeing through an agendda. European civilians are just pawns on the hamster’s wheel.
I agree Tony Furze. Britain doesn’t need to leave the eu. It needs ro stande stronger and negotiate harder. Leaving will not ease the immigration and economic migrant crisis. The borders will suffer from loss of cooperation between countries making the situatiln worse. It may also effect the cooperation of other governments in the fight against terrorism.
Many Brits moved to other eu countries , long term for work reasons and they and their famillies are intergrated in their new country, working and contributing to that economy, but now face the possibility of loosing all their rights. Many may be forced to return to GB in severe financial difficulty. Will they have any rights or help on their return. How will this influx of returning displaced Brits affect the British economy,NHS etc.
In and fight your corner Britain.
Babel ready to fall apart.
I deeply belive in the EU. Hope UK will not leave.
I deeply belive in the EU. Hope UK will not leave.
I feel very sorry for you if that’s the case! Look at the bloody mess it’s caused!!
LET US LEAVE!
If you have been paying attention to the mess Brussels as made of your EU you will already know the answer.
Like the man said.
If you have been paying attention to the mess Brussels as made of your EU you will already know the answer.
Like the man said.
I really pro European organisation, but if they want to leave, please do so ! We don’t force anyone to stay. We need a huge reform within the European Union, it’s not working anymore
Jerome Fitz February 23rd, 2016
“I really pro European organisation, but if they want to leave, please do so ! We don’t force anyone to stay. We need a huge reform within the European Union, it’s not working anymore”
I keep seeing this. Even pro EU individuals and “remain” campaigners keep mentioning the need for major reform.
Given the past record I have no confidence that this is going to happen… So let’s get out before either of two things happen: the EU keeps going on, stacking up problems, or the EU fractures. Better not to be there in either case.
If we leave, France, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, Greece, the Czech Republic and the Netherlands will leave.
We need to make it work, which means we must have to be free of those who undermine us.
We would have long ago had the European Army, European borders, secret services, common energy policy, with renewables if certain countries would not have systematically undermine it. It is a chance to clean our EU up and get the union to fulfillment.
I really pro European organisation, but if they want to leave, please do so ! We don’t force anyone to stay. We need a huge reform within the European Union, it’s not working anymore
United Kingdom in a United Europe. Makes perfect sense. United we stand divided we fall.
Out for sure .
Time to leave.you will be better off.
Out out out out.
We must leave
My sincere question to the ‘out’ crowd.
Do you REALLY think the UK will be able to have influence over Russia, China, the US?
Sovereignty is a very relative notion in the modern world.
@ Brian Huebner
Do you really think the UK has any influence over Russia, China, the US presently? If that is your thinking you are way off beam. We are run by China and the US. China is buying up all US stock and Europes. The dollar is about to bust and we, as the 51st state are stuck to Uncle Sams arse like shit to a blanket.
The only hope for salvation is to get out of Europe and let go of Globalism.
Leave, and Junker can shove the eu rag of a flag up his arse!
Why shouldn’t we ? Where’s your faith in the UK, we should be able to make our own laws, decide who enters the UK and be able to boost our own forces.
We wasn’t always in the EU, the EU is becoming more dictatorial each day.
David Cameron claims that his deal is ‘legally binding and irreversible’. However, the former Director General of the Legal Service of the EU Council said: ‘There is no possibility to make a promise that would be legally binding to change the treaty later’.
His reform package was dealt a further blow after leaked documents revealed that German chancellor Angela Merkel told EU leaders at last week’s Council not to worry about the Prime Minister’s demand for Treaty change. She stated that ‘on the question of amending the Treaties, we do not know if we ever will have a change of them’.
The Prime Minister’s deal is not worth the paper it’s written on. EU courts and EU politicians can rip it up straight after the referendum. The only way to get real change in our relationship with the EU is to Vote Leave.
Yes, vote to leave. If it wasn’t for Merkel and Orban that Cameron would be the most disgusting character in the EU. Not even the UK and rightwing supporters on the continent can pretend to support the upgrade of the little englanders already special status. As usual, the EU is weak with the strong (UK, France, Spain, Italy) and strong with the weak (Greece, Portugal).
For our future we must leave please
Out but check out what else is happening that day football etc perhaps a few people might be missing the vote well thought out david
Brexit = Economical Suicide, and a disaster for trade, tourism and industry.
Economics: Were doing pretty well outside the Eurozone thank you
Trade: The EU sells more to us then we do to them, so who has more to lose?
Tourism: You seriously think tourists come to the UK because we are in the EU??
Industry:Sadly we don,t have any left, though without the stupid protectionist rules from the EU there is a chance we can recover some
There is absolutely no point in taking part as they will only try to brain wash you into voting in . This could be the very last time I ever vote for anything as it’s clear its all corrupt
You wonder how the UK will vote … this latest debacle of Merkel opening the borders without any regard to a semblance of rule of law followed by EuroCrap imposition on sovereign member states of same unchecked migrant quotas may have sealed it for the out vote. Many see the EU as having become a corruption and organized crime funding machine. The Mayor of London Boris Johnson (who coincidentaly I voted for) is perhaps right when he says the EU has turned into a political project with no roots in the will of the citizens (no democracy).
We want our country back… Out out out
GO!!! nobody’s holding you back.
They should stay and help reform the EU so it serves the people with the Varoufakis DiEM25 Pan-European Movement together with Caroline Lucas of the Green Party, Podemos, Blockupy Europe and many others. You have to be in it to change it.
“Julia Hadjikyriacou February 23rd, 2016
They should stay and help reform the EU ”
So many agree that the EU needs major reform!
Sorry, I think it’s too late, given how resistant to reform the EU has been, and with its focus still being on expansion.
Being one of 28, 29, 30, when we don’t believe in “ever closer union” anyway?
(we were sold “a free trade area” only on 1975.)
It’s up to British nation to decide at the upcoming referendum, regardless what others might hope.
THIS IS NOT EUROPE DIFFERENT LEQUAGE , TAXES , INCOMES , HEALTH , INSURANCES ETC I THINK IS BETTER TO LEAVE
OUT! No more privileges for UK. Other members are struggling with immigration crisis, with debt issue.
Our “Privileges” cost 55 million a day. I think we’ll take the cash instead.
Better for UK is to stay in EU.Then unkle Rot….d will be happy.
Ok.if you ..leave…don’t expect the united kingdom to remain united… England. ..Wales…Scotland Northern Ireland ….think before deciding….
I’d love Scotland to leave quite frankly. I’m fed up of subsidizing scottish nationals using the barnet formula thank-you very much!
The UK cannot remain a member of the EU, it has no option other than to leave. Which I am sad to address as I had been a staunch Europhile.
My reasons for this change of view are multiple. However, the main reasons are, there is no true of the people democracy. The people of the UK cannot choose or change those selected by the appointments in other States. Ms Merkel is not a suitable leader, as she and many of her counterparts do not have the best interests of the European citizens at heart. Her crazed immigration fetish is the invention of those lacking in rational thought.
When European leaders are ready to arrest, bludgeon and possibly shoot their own indigenous people for the sake of driven unsuitable citizens of other countries, then they are useless to those who voted them in. And we in the UK did not vote for Ms Merkel, or Juncker and many, many others.
Next, EU law has changed dramatically over the last forty years, much of which is not in the best interests of the British people. Many of our own people are being made homeless, workless and impoverished by these changes in law. We don’t want TTIP and if we remain in the EU, we, the people, cannot change any EU decision on it.
And, biggest of all, the EU is run by bankers, financiers, NATO and many, many other hidden, invisable jokers. Look at what they did to Greece. In our own back yard we can vote Cameron out, get rid of Trident, vote out of NATO and have a say on how we decide to live and work, all with our own best interests.
Example: If our politicians keep bringing in millions of immigrants for us to feed, house and watch them treat our culture with disdain, we can get rid of those politicians directly. We have a voice. In the EU we have no voice, we are simply back to serfdom.
The EU is the equivalent of an octopus, embracing the line of the American war machine and crooked bankers but we are powerless to be rid of it or them. This does not mean our own bunch of MP’s are not playing the old politically correct jump to their tune game, but, if the power of the people rises against them, we can dump them in the sea as quick as you can say Jack Robinson. We can bring back the system we had where we could call for a no confidence vote in any government, after two years, or less, not have to wait five long years to crack their nut wide open, as we do now. All because of Europe and its five year bull.
I could go on adfinitum, but, what I am saying is, we want our country back. Not end up like Greece who voted for a man who said he wanted free of them and found he was trapped like a mouse when he reached for the cheese in Brussels.
Not only that, there is worse to come. If this referendum is lost, and the ins win, the snare will be tightened around all our necks until we are choked to death. As the rulers despise the people and the countries they run. They want to change them out of all recognition. Look at what we have today. We are virtually a third world dump. Running around looking for work as servers, whores and dealers in gambling facilities. Our industry has been sold, our seas stolen and our fields and agriculture directed by the simpletons in Europe who won’t take no for an answer.
So Britain must come out or loose all they hold dear.
Catherine, I share with you the experience of becoming increasingly disappointed by what the Maastricht-EU turned out to be. I also agree with your analysis.
The current EU establishment is completely lacking empathy for its own people, the memberstates nations, instead worshiping illusionary xenophil ideologies to the harm of us all.
The exit of Britain, as much as I regret it, will hopefully, not terminate European cooperation but open the door to a more reasonable EU where the balanced interest of Europe’s historical nations are in the centre, and not obscure, unelected forces behind the political curtain.
If we leave..that will mean that this heinous government will be free to do whatever they want to us and we would be even more screwed than we already are…Human rights for an example…GONE !!!!
The UK was the backbone and lawyers of the Human Rights Act. Don’t be stupid. It is a UN thing not European.
If we stay in this anti Christian dictatorship, our forefathers died for nothing fighting for our freedom in WWII
Amen to that!
Even for them they should stay….
I said it and will comment again. This is not an European issue, it’s a Westminster problem.
Only the anti-brits say things like that, how come so many Europeans outside th UK think they know what’s best for us?
Out brothers, out!
We should vote out and 23rd June , will be our Independence Day .
While remaining true in preserving my pragmatic stance in support and respect for old fashioned (political) sovereignty for ALL over/against EU suzerainty- while at the same time not discarding the support for greater and fairer economical cooperation and advancements between all 47 European nations internally & globally- a Brexit- I believe- would initiate vital but overdue EU reforms.
If not mistaken, the latest utterances by David Cameron- that HE achieved important “EU reforms” are blatantly misleading and wrong. Clearly, HE only extracted some (minor) concessions for the UK but not EU reform! Who is wrong?
In respectable memory of late Harper Lee: “But this is a truth that applies to the human race and to no particular race of men.”
Out of EU.
What happens, eu votes out, multinational companies start moving their companies out from tiny UK market to the EU market where they are free to move goods, people and services…..Nissan, Cadbury, Honda etc. UK suffers deep depression and goes cap in hand again to rejoin their huge trading bloc, this time UK in the ropes and we have to join on their terms including Euro, we will regret ever being so utterly stupid
What makes you think the multinationals will leave the UK? they don’t just export to the EU you know. ..and if, for example, the EU puts some childish import duty on UK built Nissans, then the UK will put a similar duty on German built Mercedes and BMWs…and guess who will be worse off?
Paul x what makes you think they won’t. its in their interest to take our business – most of the 27 have a balance of trade in England’s favour then once we’re out we will have even less influence – they will be able drain us dry – our land and port hubs and our financial centres are already targets. Unfortunately the EU exists the only way to deal with them without hand poverty to our kids is to keep your enemies closest.
“Unfortunately the EU exists”
That’s on a par with many “remain” advocates.
Many speak of “a reformed EU” which they must know isn’t going to happen, on current evidence and past record.
Or of having influence if staying in, when the record of the UK actually being able to change anything is minimal, and prospects will be reduced further when more countries enter with voting rights biased in their favour.
The EU, as it is, is an ugly undemocratic thing. It is far more likely to get worse that it is to get better. We should have been given a referendum on this much earlier, but UK politicians ducked it. Particularly during the time of the Lisbon treaty (and did you see how EU member Ireland got treated then?)
We have this one chance for separation.
It’s time to take it. Before the EU starts shaking itself apart more messily
(Greek debt issue is due to come round again: it wasn’t solved, just “kicked down the road ” a bit.
YOURE OK IN THIS COUNTRY,,,,, as long as you’re not BRITISH….
I would like to know how Britains exit will affect the millions of our people working and living in the EU. Also how pensions will be affected for those who have retired to Eorope. These are destined to be the forgotten people….
Don’t see why, people have been working and retiring in other countries long before the EU came into being. It just depends on what sort of childish retaliation the EU takes if the UK dares to leave
Why would countries like Spain or Portugal do that? They would be shooting themselves in the foot!
Member of European Union
Who dictates in the EU? This is a political institute where every country has its own delegates. Many European companies, like banks for eg announced leaving UK if it gets out from the EU. Britain’s loss, the rest is just right wing cheap Greek style political propaganda
The facts matter, not some meaningless separatist assertions, after all.
P.S. EU is distancing from the US sick policy, so Washington decides to order the exit of the UK from EU and mobilize enormous weaponry in Europe against the “threat” of Russia, the only country that hit the US interests by bombing ISIL.
To Ciobîcă Ovidiu: as mad conspiracy theories go, that’s a mad one.
“Washington decides to order the exit of the UK from EU”
US has shown some preference to UK staying in.
“mobilize enormous weaponry in Europe against the “threat” of Russia,”
Disinclination to get into conflict with Russia was why US and European support for the (early) rebels against Assad was muted.
” hit the US interests by bombing ISIL.”
ISIL is an American asset? Don’t be silly. America regularly complains that Russia’s “anti-terrorist strikes” have primarily been further north, against Kurdish and other non Isis groups.
Isis fighters would slaughter their own commanders if they believed they were being paid by or duped by agents of America.
Hmm. That might actually be a good false rumour to spread.
Manufacturing and goods and exports to America and the rest of the world is slightly higher than business Britain does with the EU. That is what the figures suggest. So therefore all this rhetoric about being worse off if we leave the EU is just scaremongering designed to force the British people to vote to stay in therefore securing Cameron’s EU pension. The EU is a failed out of date organisation designed to control the member states and destroy there welfare and sovereignty
I would suggest to stay without economical colapse.
I’m no politician but here’s my take
1…around 2 million uk unemployed
2….around 2 million foreign working here
3… leave the EU
This would drastically cut red tape
Allowing uk firms to save money
This increases turnover they could pay staff more which in turn could wipe out unemployment therefore saving billions on the welfare bill .the money saved on eu fees could be used to improve health education and generally for the uk population. Our borders would be more secure the eu would continue to trade as before they sell more to us than we do to them the financial markets would be ok as sterling is far more trusted than the euro for our future generations the obvious choice is leave
Forget economics we can get through that, with what we save how about british culture, way of life. English language, christianity. British laws, lived with it for hundreds of years and managed, now we are being overrun by foriegn language, islam, arabic, sharia law, mosques dont want it dont need it. No room in our hospitals, schools, housing etc. All planed to destroy us as a nation. Dont let it happen. VOTE OUT.
B. ..up mosques
FYI ISIS are very happy that UK will leave Europe they believe that its the end of Europe and a big victory for the islamic state ISIS !! and the believe that because of their day and night prayers it happened !! WE DON’T WANT THAT
We are stronger together with Europe we can fight that monkeys !!
I feel that the british public need to know clear and full facts of what it woukd ‘m ean to stay or leave The main pint I want to know is if Turkey has its special relationship with the EU does that kean we will have to accept mass immigration from a country which is culturally worlds apart from us.Ibelieved when we went into thecommon market it was an economic union I did not vote to be part of an ever increasing federation of European states who hold sway over our national laws.
We must stay in Europe.
The United Kingdom that we know today may disappear and new republican system may appear.
1- Scotland will definitely leave the UK and if they do it will be a START END : Scotland is shown to generate more per head of population than the UK as a whole. For Scotland, it is £26,424 per head compared with £22,336 per head for the UK, according to Scottish government estimates.
If you do not include oil and gas revenues then there is little difference in the figures – GDP per head in Scotland was £20,571 in 2011 and for the UK it was £20,873.
2- UK National security will be in a big risk , Extremist are very happy about that. they are praying day and night for UK to leave because as they believe that if UK leave Europe is finished and that what they want exactly. We don’t want that we are better together.
3- 300 Billion GBP is the cost of Brexit the EU. Who will end up paying that money ? Borris Jonson ? Goldsmith Family ? WE WILL END UP PAYING THAT MONEY.
4- Europe is paying the bills for our London Underground and many developments in country side and thats a very good benefit.
WE MUST STAY IN !!!
1. The SNP would love the UK to vote out and the Scottish element of the vote to be in because they can claim that is a trigger for a second referendum. But that is them looking for an excuse and until the votes are cast nothing is certain
2. If anything UK security will improve. Out of the EU all visitors to the UK will be subject to the same checks.
3. 300bn cost? interested to see where that figure has come from, all I know is we will be saving 55 million a day from the moment we leave
4. Anything the EU “pays” for in the UK is just them returning a small amount of what we hand over to them…are we really supposed to be grateful to for that?
Guys staying in EU is the end of our work market. Yes few companies will make more money and expand. But people like me won’t see any benefit from it. Few years back you could go to Turkish restaurants and see Turkish ex refugees working for say £350 a week. Now you have bulgarian Turks working for £250 a week. So the market is driven down in terms of wage this is why they made a big fuss about this living wage thing because the economy is getting worse in terms of income. We simply can not accommodate any more people we have the same population as france and we are half the size of France can you see what I am saying? You can not have west of EU with average minimum wage €10 and east average €3-€5. Everytime there is a crisis in EU people endup coming to UK or Germany or France then what? What do they do? They end up working for less than minimum wage without being declared fully and try to survive. Its not their fault but it’s got to stop. You think its ok to employ people from EU and stopping their benefit for 4 years going to do the trick? Well whilst they are working for cheaper and costing a British national his job (I know It sounds harsh but it’s the truth) the British national will have to claim. So as a result someone will have to access state benefits still the affects of mass migration from EU. Is Switzerland in EU? Norway? Nope and they are doing better than us…
Yep, my son is married to a Norwegian lady, he and his family have lived there almost 20 years, they are much richer than the UK, have no problems in Trade agreements, higher wages, better standard of living, good health services and no overcrowding , don’t get involved in wars that have no connection with them – I’d live there myself – but the immigration rules will not allow it, how daft are we if we stay in the EU?
It’s lot of crap u write.. British people had to find jobs after recent benefit changes and blaim foreigners for taking their jobs. Easy target.. They are angry as the money stopped coming from the sky. The truth is we had a huge group of people draining benefit system, making no effort to work and contribute to this country. They shout loudest and should stay quiet! Every inteligent person knows what leaving EU means. I hope Britain will remain, but sometimes wish people voting to leave could taste the consequencies.
who will work for them? England blinds when you leave the peel-off. because the English are lazy and do not work as much money as the “immigrants”
What a racist comment! You have just lumped a whole nation of peoples into the category of lazy, shame on you!!
That’s the whole problem isn’t it, blame the British, but it is our country, and our Government needs to stop benefits for British people who are fit to work and make them work as the jobs available. I am sick to death of hearing complaints about Britain and the British, we used to have a saying in Australia is was FIFO M8 Fit it or… well I leave the rest to your imagination… stay or leave but quit with the insults and integrate, I couldn’t care which!
If it wants to stay in the EU then it must apply ALL the EU norms like the rest!
If it wants to be only part of the EEC, then We can comply and leave it at that, but without any voice in EU matters!
If it wants to break away, it will be painful but be my guest and go without remorces!
They should cut off ALL the welfare benefits for EU migrants who have not worked and paid taxes in UK.
AND SEND THEM HOME.
and then, YES, UK SHOUD STAY IN EU.
Without EU will not go away
Exactly.if someone not working,he don’t have benefit.nothing.
The main reason is that the UK politicians and big corporations, banks etc. Want to have tax and rule exceptions, etc…
I am so sock of the media particularly ITV they are only interviewing people afraid to leave. This is a campaign of fear are the British people a buch of cowards it appears that the majority maybe.
@ Graham Adam
The Eu pay the BBC annually to back them in any deal they do or they will withdraw the money.
Likewise any British politician or those who have a connection to the EU will lose their annual stipend and their pension if they bad mouth Europe. This is why so many of the journalists, the papers and the media are giving nothing but stay stay stay. They don’t want to be robbed of their EU funds.
The deal is, you never speak against them or funds are withdrawn. Take the Kinnocks for example. And there are a line of them on the take.
You mean the BBC the ITV is an independent organisation but the BBC are funded by the government!! they won’t bite the hand that feeds so they will throw negativity on the leave campaigners!
If I was English I will stay in but I am french and I say get out! !
Well Done little green frog X
Leave also NATO. Then it well be 100% independence.
Out out out
Im a UK citizen i’ll be voting out
It is a simples question with a simple answer…
1. If the UK wants to be part of the EU. Then it must be part of it without reservations.
2. If the UK just wants to revert to a EEC status. Then the EU should allow and be prepared for that, but the UK would need to abdicate from any kind of political involvement with EU politics.
3. If the UK decides to leave. Then leave and best of luck. We’ll treat the UK as We treat Norway or any other European nation that isn’t part of the EU. Through bilateral agreaments.
PS – It’s SHAMEFUL that UK’s government wants to apply social limitations on EU member state citizen migrants when those are working and contributing for YOUR social security system!
Actually the issue is about those who come here and immediately get benefits without contributing a penny
What is shameful is the fact people can come here and claim child benefit for children who have never set foot in the UK, justify that to the UK taxpayers?
“Europe is run by a sprawling bureaucracy”
Not true. The European Commission has fewer employees than Leeds city council
……at least Leeds City council doesn’t move to Glasgow at regular intervals to hold meetings…
Out for me
We need to get control back. Control of our laws, control of our borders, control of our businesses, instead of going cap in hand to other countries asking for permission to act. The EU is holding our country back and we can’t vote them out if we don’t like what they do, like the dangerous TTIP agreement they are going to force on us (Google it), which will put the NHS in the hands of American big businesses.
We are more than capable of arranging trade agreements ourselves and will be free to trade more competitively with all European countries as well as the rest of the world. We will be safer too. The Paris bombers went from Belgian through to France without having to show passports or being challenged. We can only let people in who we want here and who can contribute to all our success.
We can spend our £55 million a day on our NHS and schools and helping to eliminate the need for food banks instead of paying unelected, mostly men, to zoom around in private jets. We MUST vote to leave and take back control of our wonderful country!! Give true, full democracy back to the country that gave it to the rest of the world.
If we could all persuade just one person to realise how lucky and safe we are, we could stop the disaster of the UK leaving the EU.
The only disaster for this country is remaining part of this political inbreed union called the E BLOODY U!
I Don’t think we are Informed enough to make this Decision !! It’s a Huge responsibility !!!!????
The fact this is even happening proves how unbelievably ignorant the UK tax payer is.
Trust the Government.
We have no homeless people,no student debt ,no home repossessions,no debt,our Nhs is doing Awesome (appart from them pesky juniors) and We’re All living in the Golden age …
Uk should leave better for those brits holliday makers will need a visa to enter the rest of Europe. It wont be a passport only as the passport will no longer be valid to enter spain, greece, portugal even almighty ibiza for holiday. Brit will have to apply for a paid visa to enter. And those brit living abroad in other eu countries without with a proper documents will be deported back home. Expecially those brits in spain that are racially the spanish people in their home country.
Why do people think Visas and changing currency to enter another country is such an issue? The only ones who benefit from this are those that live near borders or who cross them on a daily basis but as far as maintaining security free movement is a disaster
and I think you will find most Brits in Spain contribute to local economies and considering the state of the Spanish property market do you really think kicking out all Brit property owners is going to happen?
It is sad that from a great, tolerant country UK is turning into a bunch of haters, who hate the former communist countries in Europe just for the sake of hating, for no valid reason but to suppress the feeling of being losers in their own personal lives… Just because hating and exploiting the vulnerable gives them the illusion of being stronger… The complex of the bully… Also constantly boasting and parading with their money and insulting the poorer countries, as if money is what determines the value of human beings or the cultural richness of nations… Those people are pitiful but if they are the majority population in the UK, it seems they will have to learn their lesson in humanity the hard way – by facing the unknown consequences of their “No” vote in the referendum. A thing to remember – there will be no turning back! With just one blow UK will have turned all its European partners into enemies! This would surely be an enjoyable life for the haters, but what about the rest of the British people? How are they going to put up with it? Will they at all? Will Scotland stay in UK? Hostility, negativity and ignorance is what will destroy Britain, not membership in the EU!
Rather bigoted view I think. Do you speak for the whole of Europe? I think you must be very young and naive – we never voted to join the EU but a Common Market, we don’t hate anyone, we just want to be self governing and allowed to make our own trade deals. Attitudes like yours will only encourage those who would have voted to stay to think again!
Complete bollox. I think you will struggle to find many people in the UK who actually “hate” anyone else in Europe, it is the EU that is despised as a bloated, inefficient and expensive club for second rate politicians. I would rather our 55 million euros a day was given direct to the countries that need it rather than direct it through the EU where half of it gets syphoned off to keep the elitist slobs in business lunches and undeserved salaries and pensions
Lisa and Paul X, what is the attitude of UKIP and their supporters towards Eastern Europeans and especially Bulgaria and Romania? It is of the sort “We can live with anyone else but not with you!”. These countries are constantly being singled out as the black sheep, insulted and blamed for being the reason for all problems, even though the non-EU community is much larger and non-EU immigration is higher. If EU citizens are a burden on the hospitals, schools and social services, then surely a larger number of migrants from outside EU is a bigger burden, but we do not see such hostile attitudes directed towards particular countries and incessant vilifying of those countries, leading to discrimination of its citizens in UK. This is what I was talking about, but it seems you would only notice unfair treatment of Muslims, Asians or Africans in UK, but not of Europeans.
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You need to get real, didn’t even mention UKIP – we don’t have an axe to grind with any country, we just want to rule our own! What’s wrong with that?
Well said, Maia!!!
As far as I’m aware UKIP’s policy is get out of the EU to end free movement and then a points based immigration system which will apply to ALL nationalities..I don’t think they plan any particular additional measures for Eastern Europeans?
Yes, but as an argument to this, people are complaining of the arrival of Eastern Europeans, so obviously, the purpose of the whole exercise is to keep Eastern Europeans out.
The current reference to Eastern Europeans is only because they happen to be the most recent countries to join the EU and be given freedom of movement rights. If the EU opens its borders to martians from outer space and they start arriving tomorrow they will be the focus of everyone’s attention. The point is it matters not where people are coming from it is the whole issue of free movement which is flawed
I don’t think it is flawed, Paul. You are now changing your own criterion from level of skills to date of arrival. You see how it doesn’t make sense. You are trying to hide the real reason why, Paul. You don’t feel comfortable about it.
Yasmine, I’m not changing anything. The reference to skill levels was just me explaining UKIP’s policy, that doesnt mean it is one of my personal “criterion”
My reference to Eastern Europeans is in answer to those who claim they are being singled out, as explained they are the current topic because they are the most recent and uppermost in peoples mind.
But yes it is my opinion that free movement is flawed. Free movement throughout Europe without proper controls at the EU’s borders is a recipe for disaster and you need no more proof than to see what is currently going on
OK, so, this is what you are saying: the UKIP wants to close the borders to EU citizens and introduce a points based system of entry not because it wants to keep out Eastern Europeans/latest arrivals but because it wants to get rid of non-EU migrants and asylum seekers from Syria, Iraq, Morocco etc but the UKIP is using Eastern Europeans as an argument as to why this should happen only because Eastern Europeans are the latest arrivals. Makes perfect sense. Thanks for explaining. Or should I say mansplaining? LOL!
Yasmine, the thing that links these facts is you
Your first post on this thread asked for details regarding subsidies, trade and tourism, I responded with figures on those three topics….you only got what you asked for….. or is your memory that short?
Yasmine, no that isn’t what I said. If you are getting confused it is your own fault for making things up.
UKIP,s policy is to control immigration irrespective of where people come from…it doesnt get any simpler?
i refer you to my first response to you paul and ultimately maia’s. you just go round in circles as you are trying to make excuses where there are no excuses to make…
Yasmine, who exactly am I making excuses for?
My input on this thread is due to a insult being aimed at my country being a “bunch of haters” and then subsequently some untruths about UKIP’s persecution of Eastern Europeans
Seems to me you are making the excuses in trying to defend the indefensible
And you have very obviously cleared this up, Mr UKIP defender…
When in all else fails make things up eh?
I have at no point said I agreed with UKIPs polices I have merely explained them for those who cannot be bothered to go read them for themselves..
Of particular relevance to this discussion is the line….
“Abolish rules discriminating EU citizens from non-EU citizens”
This flies in the face of those Eastern Europeans who whine UKIP is picking on them, clearly UKIP want to treat everyone equally as bad (or good.. depending upon your viewpoint)
This is a matter of urgency. Life of our children born and unborn generations to come determine the choice we make today. Question if the United Kingdom was not in the European union or didn’t join the European union in the frist place, wouldn’t we survive as a nation? Australia is on it’s only, China, Iran, Canada, Singapore, Japan which is not the size of South East England is proving the world, that you don’t need to become a babysitting country before you can be a great Sovereign state. Russia is also an role model. We can’t continue as a dumbing ground for the European union? We can’t be taking in every body in both illegal criminals, drug barons, benefits seeks and all sorts of people who don’t have business in our country. We can’t be giving houses to asylum seekers ,people who no ,European citizens when we British people are homeless and facing houses crisis . we should stop jumping to conclusion that we are rich by playing or pretending all is well in the UK, when more than 60 % are living in crude poverty-stricken conditions in over crowding places in London. The British politicians and government has been using BBC and the power of media and police to hide reality from the British people. North West, North central, Midlands and Scotland some other parts of UK are underdeveloped with all the European union contribution and money received. We need to leave to the European union to be able to control our borders
No brainier. Work it out
Remain, no man is an island.
The führage and his hate campaign against the eu with his pink shirts and little old ladies is leading GB back into splendid isolation
Your probs. Not ours. Write a book
Britain is better off to be in the EU, no doubt about that. Boris Johnson considers Mr. Cameron a lame duck and just using the Euro skeptics to become the next prime minister and nothing else.
I’d vote Boris for PM in a heartbeat!
Boris is just protecting the interests of the rich bankers, whom the EU wants to regulate.
What total rubbish I like Barmy Boris he makes more sense than you do.
This country is being robbed by the greedy EU gravy train as the brilliant Andrea Leadsom pointed out on last nights EU debate.
I hope we vote OUT! and stop giving these greedy selfish people in the EU billions of our money which is just draining our economy if we stay in we will be a third world country Hitler would be proud!!
The UK is an island.
Believe in Britain! Get out as soon as possible.
Remain for sure! The financial damage will be huge if it leaves
for whom? The EU takes more from our country than we get back, better on our own with our own laws and closed borders
have you got any specific numbers we can look at lisa/ in terms of subsidies received, revenues from trade and tourism etc/
£55m a day has been quoted as the UK net contribution but looking at this it seems £23m a day is more realistic, still a lot of taxpayers money
We continue to run a trade deficit with the EU
Regarding tourism I think this is an interesting graphic….yes it does show that a large percentage of visitors to the UK came from EU countries but look at the details for who was actually spending here and boosting our economy… puts a slightly different perspective on the data doesn’t it?
No specific numbers, jus assumptions…
£23 million looks like a figure to me? ..in reality, as far as the argument goes it matters not whether it is £23m, £55m or £10m, everyone on all sides admits the UK is a net contributor to the EU budget
£77.6 bn trade deficit with the EU in 2014 looks like a figure? seems to be well justified in the article and not “assumed” to me
The fact the 2.7m visitors from the US spent £41 million more in the UK than the 3.9m visitors from France did..looks like a figure to me?
To be honest I don’t know what side of the in/out argument you are on but as far as I’m concerned all the assumptions are being made by the “in” campaign with their scare stories of 3m job losses etc, none of which can be validated by anyone
Paul, your figures are not showing anything in particular. They convince you because you wan to be convinced. I am not on any side of the argument. All I am saying is that your arguments are no arguments at all but just populist ideas that people repeat but they don’t make sense. I am from Greece and during the time that Mr Tsipras was creating all this fuss about staying or leaving, which wasn’t even official, many businesses packed up and moved to Bulgaria, a much poorer and corrupt country. There was no fuss about it. It was done quietly. If these people are willing to do all this just for the sake of trading within an EU environment, that is saying at all. And I think it is pretty much a precedent as to what is going to happen to any country that leaves the EU. There is no scaremongering or anything. Having no borders is good for business and people already have their business networks which they want to retain at all cost. Period. There is nothing emotional about it.
Yasmine, it is nothing to do with me being convinced or not, they are simple facts. The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget…..fact
The UK has a trade deficit with the EU…fact
Non EU tourists spend more in the UK than EU tourists…fact
How people want to interpret these facts is up to them but in general they are not very useful for the pro EU lobby. So maybe you have some hard facts that support the case for the UK staying in the EU?
No, I can’t see how they work in favour of the anti- lobby either though. So you have a number of facts that are not necessarily the full picture and are not necessarily directly connected to each other. There may be other facts that are not given here and the economy is overall a complex thing. It is not just a matter of 4-5 figures. Yes, I have a very good reason why the UK should stay in the EU. Because it is a European country, it is a founding member and it should help to realise the goals of the EU which were to prevent any further wars by promoting co-operation and trading/commercial activities. If there is something wrong (which there is a lot of) obviously it needs to be changed for everyone not just for one country and several countries need to come together and have their say in the EU parliament. Because united Europe is bigger and stronger than the US but is unfortunately consuming itself on petty regional arguments and modern-day tribalism. And people come here thinking that they are saying something very clever but are actually being small-minded and are letting themselves be manipulated by bad politicians whose policies are unprofessional and don’t make sense.
Yasmine, the thing that links these facts is you
Your first post on this thread asked for details regarding subsidies, trade and tourism, I responded with figures on those three topics….you only got what you asked for….. or is your memory that short?
hi paul, you have responded but have failed to make any point or prove anything in specific with them. that’s because there is no way of measuring the benefits or detriment to UK economy as a result of EU membership. it is just your assumptions.
so here is a small clue as to what the EU is paying wales for example, which paul has conveniently omitted when responding to me. that’s just the welsh, I am not going to look for northern Ireland, Scotland etc. ;
presuming these people are too busy working hard to come on this website and be heard. but guess what, paul, the EU was created in order to defend and guarantee the rights of those people and not those of rich bankers that fight about whether their bonus is going to be 40 per cent or 100 per cent of their annual salary and are prepared to come out of the eu over it.
Yasmine, what part of being a net contributor is difficult to understand?
So we send large amounts of money to the EU and they “give” us a percentage of it back ..to be spent on projects dictated by them complete with blue starred “aren’t we generous with other peoples money” badge….and we are supposed to be grateful?
It’s like having your car stolen but the thief gives you the bus fare home and expects you to say thanks….
Whereas you would rather spend it on bankers…
Very interesting to compare voluntary membership contribution to stealing, esp. when there is no clear evidence that the UK is worse off because of its membership. Obviously, yet another brain that lives in a cave.
Actually it’s a close call if it is better to spend it on bankers in this country or inefficient French farmers…..
…and there is no clear evidence that the UK is financially better off for it’s membership……so is your brain’s cave in the same street as mine?
So, if there is no evidence of either, why are you carrying on about the financials as a criterion to leave? Answer: because you are small-minded and fail to grasp the cultural and political aspects of it. Being unable to see the forest you come here posting 10 comments about the tree…
To Yasmin: You say (apart from when in other posts you slip to personal insults)
” ..the UK should stay in the EU. Because it is a European country, it is a founding member and it should help to realise the goals of the EU which were to prevent any further wars by promoting co-operation and trading/commercial activities. If there is something wrong (which there is a lot of) obviously it needs to be changed ”
Being a European country is no particular reason to be in the EU. and the rush to expansion has been both to far and too fast, with rules being bent and broken on the way. That’s feeds into existing “things wrong”. The goals of the EU promoters are for more than you say. You will see many posts here say were were sold a “free trade area”, “the Common Market”, in 1975, and that overall was an idea approved of. It wasn’t what developed, nor was it the ambition of those who were heading (initially very quietly) to monetary and political “ever closer” union. Many British feel we were lied to then by European and British politicians. We’ve not had a chance to respond to that by voting, since.
“If there is something wrong”! There’s a massive amount wrong, again recognised even by pro-EU posters, yet a consistent feature of the EU structure and management has been an utter resistance to reform: why should anyone think it’s going to get better? With added countries I consider it will only get worse.
Oh, and the UK wasn’t a founding member.
It’s time to be out whether the EU proceeds or it falls apart.
Either way, better not to be there.
The emphasis is on financial because that is the main reason to leave the EU
The EU doesn’t make a penny, it takes money from countries, spends a large chunk on keeping itself running and then redistributes whats left. As a business model it is a failure, it adds no value to what it does,it just drains resources
I’m definitely interested in what you consider the Political and Cultural advantages of EU membership are though?…please explain….
For the greedy bankers you mean!
That’s the whole point, Paul….that you haven’t made ANY point on the financials and my guess is that you yourself don’t understand what you are talking about…or you just don’t want to admit that it proves nothing…
Out out out
We have been going round in circles for years, we vote an MP in on his promise to change something and the EU tell him no! I really don’t care to argue with anyone who has not lived in both an independent Britain and under the thumb of the EU. And this is for Yasmine, maybe Churchill is not someone you ever respected, I attended his funeral -I wish we had someone like him in charge now! Whilst he fiercely defended our Country’s sovereignty and he also saw the bigger picture which is why he stopped at Berlin. Pity the EU didn’t stop there too, the size of the EU has made it unmanageable, it’s not about racism or UKIP which you keep throwing around like a beach ball – it’s about wanting to remain independent, it’s about electing people who can carry out the people’s wishes, it’s about not throwing money at people who think the world owes them a living. We have cut benefits to many people – why then should we give them to non British? Give us some facts – reasons for staying in! Up until now I haven’t seen anyone give a reason to stay in that makes any sense at all!
Like I said before, but has not been published (?) I have given a reason why the UK should stay in the EU. Lisa, your views, which are that you want to re-live the 70’s, Churchil’s time etc and that you want to come out of the EU because you don’t want gypsies in the UK, are clearly backward, acist and not relevant to the EU. I find your posts shameful (I am referring to the ones about gypsies). The EU is about looking forward to the future and not about recreating the past, so, if that’s what you want to do, I really think you should come out of the EU and let everyone else move forward. I don’t think that your posts are doing the average Brit much justice but you seem to fit into the stereotype of the person that wants to come out of the EU: over 55, without university education and voting for the UKIP. I think hence your views.
“The EU is about looking forward to the future and not about recreating the past”
So why don’t you say how you see the EU in your future and just how long we need to wait to before we have a successful Euro, low immigration, good job prospects and financial stability in the EU?
Do have strong, visionary, intelligent leaders who can see into the future? Do we have people like Churchill and Magraent Tactcher who can stand up for the British people.?And said no to the grabbish European union is throwing at us a nation. The British politicians that we have are only Oxford, Cambridge, and Kings college minded, without focus and purpose of the freedom and rights of the people of UK. Politicians can never be trusted, because they never tell the reality. We do no where we are currently going as a nation because European union is unpopular a, club of the German politicians and French bully
Out of the disaster that is UE
And more will go out a Europe rule by Germany again no thanks. And the next bank to fall is the deutsch bank. No more saving the German and French banks
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We should get out as soon as possible
We should get out as soon as possible
This EU is not what we dreamed… Better a confederation
I agree the EU is far from a united organisation it’s just a greedy one!
This EU is not what we dreamed… Better a confederation
I think some people are also thinking that if the current system is seemingly unfit to understand the reality of what is happening in Brussels, the relativelly small city where they are mostly based (I am referring to Molenbeek) how can it understand and represent the reality of 400 million people? Maybe Boris Johnson is indeed right. This has turned into a political project with no roots in democracy. Further evidenced by Merkel appearing to have powers above any semblance of law to open Germany’s borders to unchecked migrants and then forcing on quotas to other sovereign nations ??????
Germany needs to be thrown out, not uk.
If they’ree smart, they leave
Como ciudadano de la Unión Europea,ya estoy mas que arto de la actitud prepotente y saboteadora de Gran Bretaña,en el proceso de construcción europeo. Si no quieren contribuir en la construccion de una mayor unión politica,es mejor que abandonen la Unión. Mejor 27 unidos,que 28 divididos. No puede ser que la Unión se combierta en un 27+1. Si algun dia deciden empujar y no frenar el proyecto europeo,seran bien recibidos.
¿Tiene miedo de abordar este debate en Inglés? Su ataque contra los británicos no hace más que confirmar que somos mejores de OUT!
Arrogance in the extreme, we are not the only country in the Union seeking reform and I think we are better off leaving now before total collapse of the EU
We had better hurry up, the way Brussels is handling the Schengen migrant crisis there might not be an EU to leave.
Isn’ t it boring asking the same question several times?
The EU needs reforms, but I think at this time wrong for anyone to leave
“José Vaz February 24th, 2016
The EU needs reforms, but I think at this time wrong for anyone to leave”
Even the pro-EU are saying this time and again, but reform has been resisted tine and again. Who believes real reform will happen before it’s too late for them?
Let’s get out before the bigger and nastier cracks appear.
Who’s going to listen to any of our reforms Cameron tried it and his idea was vetoed. Get a grip Jose there will be no reforms.
I think it’s time for Europe to become one! When Scotland wanted to leave the UK, the motto “better United” was used all the time, but gets to Europe, and the sense of inferiority the Brits have towards Germany and Brussels, blinds them to a union. The lack of democracy in the EU, is partly because a confederation is not yet fully formed. And the Brits are the best at party pooping!
I agree 100%
Cameron should have resigned when that referendum returned negative. but instead he is just pursuing the same tactic in a different context.
Remain, but we must have rules for the countries who wants to live. Not the best of the two world.
e a seguir temos o FinEXIT !!!!
Leave for their own Good.
One more reason to quit the EU.
i dont really care if they leave, im just sorry they robbed scotland on their referendum and strongly argued EU wont let them stay a member, and now they are forcing them our along with them.. give back the money and leave EU, nobody wants their imperialism anyway.. i wish we could exit
@Miroslav Nikola Ćurić
I would have taken umbrage about your inaccurate and slanderous comments about the Scottish referendum BUT then I saw your clown-like picture.
BTW, I don’t think the EU can give the UK back the hundreds of billions the UK has given to the UK as the EU cannot afford it!
As the eu shows more and more cracks in its structure, it would be in a not so far future not any longer a question, who should leave or remain a member… Over a not to long period of time none would cry a teardrop after this dumb creation…
“Go in Peace. But Go!”
EU is an idea, which I hope becomes one day a reality. If you believe in this idea you should stay and try to convince other states for what it needs to be changed. If you don’t buy into this idea then you should be allowed to leave. Maybe British people feel more part of the British Commonwealth than EU.
My point is that EU is something more than just a trade agreement between nations.
Yeah I think we should leave because its boring being in the EU
I think its a shame Scotland did not win their Independence, the English would no longer have to subsidise them and without the Scottish vote we would easily win freedom from the EU. The Majority of English people are disadvantaged just to keep the minority of Scotts happy.
Totally agree !!!
How can you trust Brussels with the accounts when they have never had there accounts agreed as correct.
The Uk should never give the EU money until the accounts have been signed of.
This is only one point in many Business will do better out the EU, Lets get back to what we voted for a COMMON MARKET and not to be ruled by the EU. Vote OUT
The EU will develop further , it has too because the halfway house we have now does not work , I would like to see someone from the EU clearly spell out what further integration is likely in the next 10 years .
well said, Shaun, You can’t stay engaged for ever. Either you have to marry or go your separate ways.
From what I’ve read so far, the major arguments for staying in the EU seem to be based on the fear of the unknown. Of course no one knows exactly how things will work out if we leave, but it will be a gradual process and it would be in everybody’s interest (EU members and the UK) for the transition to be as smooth as possible.
If we leave so should VAT as it was a requirement of joining but will they give away 110 billion each year , NO . And it can’t be lower than 15 %. Also the common market at the time not long after the war , was started with stolen NAZI gold , strange that Germany is now in charge.
Leave.. 2 points.. Surprisingly agree with John Redwoods economic insight. Secondly, look to the future, ‘big’ nations ( GER, FRA, UK ) carrying ‘smaller’ nations ( ROM, BUL, GRE, HUN ), this would only be exacerbated by addition of the likes of Turkey etc. Now is the time to get out, stand on the periphery and economically dip in as we see fit. OUT before we lose the option.
Why would our leaving the political union affect our economy ?
Trade will still take place, people will still travel & the sun will still rise in the morning.
The only thing we will lose is the antidemocratic dictates from Brussels.
“Noinadeka per sent ov das ekonomistji sagenas dat das Brexit provokos domadji in das Ekonomia – “Same das proponentji ov das Brexit ne abas un idea klar ov vat potus passiri”. Mer ov noinadeka per sent ov akademikji kuestioned von das Zenter for Makroekonomia in Skola ov Ekonomia von London akordas dat das posibilita ov Brexit potus provoki insertitudia in das marketji i same provoki alter riskji ekonomik.”
The truth is that UK was,is and will remain extremely strong than any state in UE!
Not much….maybe few headquarters will move to ireland…
No much affect at all….for us.
Maybe they will have a little setback at the begginning but soon, free of corrupt EU, british economy will bloom. The world is more then the agonizing EU.
I am in favor of reforms and European referendum Europe urgently needs a change and we can not continue our patients rest o life
i posti di lavoro sono in pericolo ( se lo sono ) per la politica neolibesta inglese . Fuori la UE è neoliberista e dentro idem . Con il BAIL-IN scarica sui cittadini europei le sue speculazioni bancarie ? Questo ancora non è chiaro
With migration up wages down, house prices up what future for our children and migrants, a very poor standard of living for the majority
There will be no Brexit- there is too much at stake .
@ Georgia Kanellopoulou February 29th, 2016
“There will be no Brexit- there is too much at stake .”
For whom? We should stay just in fear of anything worse?
That depends on the current state of the EU and even more on where it is heading. I don’t think a few exemptions for Britain amount to “EU Reform”, which is widely seen by both sides as badly needed in an entity highly resistant to it. And “ever closer union ” but not for all the EU states looks like further fracturing in the future, or a united “core group” well placed to bully (or merely dominate) its smaller satellite countries.
I don’t see a new dawn coming out f the EU without major reform, which I can’t see grounds to hope for,
I think “leave” actually puts considerably puts less at stake.
Brexit is best for the EU! The worst has been done already with Cameron’s egocentric, neo-liberal deal. The EU needs solidarity to solve its problems, and Cameron’s deal will open the doors for other governments to ask for more self-interested privileges. A Brexit will push the EU to work hard and quickly to solve its problems. While the British will not be able to cope in the short-medium term with the negative effects of leaving the EU; British failure will serve as an incentive for other EU members not to leave the EU. European problems will, then, be able to be solved in a truly reasonable collective way.
If UK wants to leave the EU, its government needs to know that all trade negotiation/privilege the UK has acquired under the name of EU would not be applied. The UK has to negotiate alone with all countries. We shall see with what a single country ranking the 10th in world economic size can negotiate a better deal with big economies or trade blocks! By waiting for the fruit of the negotiation, we shall see how the British people can cope with particularly in this turbulent period of instability.
Actually we are 5th in the world economic table, within the EU only Germany is above us and they will certainly want to keep on good trading terms the UK. We should also be able to work on individual agreements with the other 3 above us (US, China & Japan). Look at it from another angle that maybe the UK economy is being held back by being tied into agreements geared to those below us in the league rather than working to improve our position with those above?
This is democracy, politicians are misleading and doing lip service for election purpose. Few of them would fairly display all different options and realities for rational choice of the people. After several decades of economic integration, I cannot see how the UK can opt out of the EU without causing great harms to its economy! Who are going to suffer during this period of instability? Responsible leaders would not risk the whole population for personal interests!
At present I am sitting on the fence and have not decided what way I shall be voting. My understanding is that the EU has put something on the table to discuss if we vote to stay in. Immigration seems to be an issue, yet this is not fully explained, reports state we had a further 350,000 come in from Europe. If this is the case, can some one explain if the tex credits and welfare apply to these, is this extended to the families they have still living in their home countries?. Also what happens to the existing EU immigrants already here if the vote to exit is carried?. Now on the other side is the economy, will VAT still apply to all goods if we leave? As I believe this is an EU directive to apply VAT.
My feeling is we can not trust the EU, so any proposal needs to be in placed and signed before we vote.
On a positive note about the EU I feel it has done a lot to protect human rights in the work place, we now have shorter working hours and an employer needs to have permission from the employees to extend these further than 48 hours per week. I also enjoy the freedom to travel.
Putting aside whether you agree with the employment policies or not, the fact the UK elects a Right wing government but has socialist legislation enforced on it is not exactly democracy is it?
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and we had a democratically elected Left wing government but the EU was enforcing a capitalist agenda?
@David Morgan: please vote to get out.
As a continental, I am sick and tired of bratty britain whining and getting extra privileges due to Brussels not having a spine to stand up to UK’s blackmail.
Get out !
Go sink in your “sea” or something. I don’t care, just get !
Ok, ok, ok – no need to be so rude.
Please don’t forget though that if there is a Brexit then it’ll take much longer for the EU to upgrade your personal transport conveyance from a horse and cart to a motorbike.
We can see from history that once a bold decision is made, we can only continue and progress. In this era when everything is about speed and innovation, if the British people are indecisive in progressing with the pace of the global system or going back to the good old days, we would always be trapped in the transition without going anywhere.
What troubling UK and other EU member states are facing is that they are trying to harvest the economic benefit by joining together as a big economy which can compete with other big economies but they do not want to join as a unified political economy in this new era, we are talking about the global political economy, which is, economy and politics cannot be separated. In a global system, economy and nations cannot be separated neither because everyone is one the same boat. Either we sail together or we drown together!
The EU is not, in the remotest sense, socialist or left wing. Surely Greece is a huge example of that. The EU is run and managed by the financial globalist market makers. As we all are. And most of the big time players in that little brigade are Americans, keeping their cash in its billions off shore in tax havens.
So, your rant is ludicrous.
However, my reasons for wanting the UK out of this union is for those very reasons listed. The Ukraine, and the interferring likes of Nuland and her kin Kerry. War mongers and terror promoters. Remember the ‘socialist’ Tony Blair who along with the Bush idiot who started this Middle Eastern crisis. And we in the UK cannot rid ourselves of his leavings or indeed him and his American cronies whilst we remain part of the EU.
The only way the British people can ever return to a democracy we understand in its own right, is for the people to be able to vote in their ‘own politicians’ and kick their arses out when they don’t do as they promised they would in their warm speeches of how much they love us. When we are rid of the EU dictators we will, at very least, be able to begin the return to a true socialist or conservative political agenda. Not have all our legislation overuled by those we do not agree with, condone or vote for.
We will also be able to shut our doors to those we don’t feel are right for our country, as, we can relieve ourselves, should we choose to do so, of the UN insistance on feeding all people, who are in the majority of the thrid world. Whilst they turn us into the same ‘pillar of salt’ backward looking group they come from.
Capitalists are lovers of poverty for the citizen and socialists want to alleviate its effects.Those we have on both sides of the Atlantic pretending to be either are duplicitous cheats. The only hope we have are Sanders and Corbyn unless they too are Blair creatures.
Then there is the enigma Trump? Now will he really fight the establishment of Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, European Central Bank and the IMF. Unlikely.
But, that aside, we first need to be outside of Europes noose if we are to be in with any chance of freedom. Just as Henry VIII knew way back when it was run by the Vatican.
Catherine, I was not claiming the EU is left (or right) wing it is policies I was referring to. My point (not rant) was if an enforced EU policy is in polar opposition to the beliefs of the elected UK government then it makes a mockery of our democracy. Clearly people in the UK who despise the current government think this is a good thing but in simple terms, and like it or not, if the UK votes Tory it has a right to expect not to experience left wing policies
Propaganda pamphlet from our 1975 referendum…
All sounds very familiar doesn’t it?
“We explain why the Government, after long, hard negotiations, are recommending to the British people that we should remain a member of the European Community”
Look at the paragraph titled Money and Jobs. It boasts great success in preventing the UK from entering economic and monetary union, obtaining the rebate and being VAT exempt on food…and what happened?………
We entered EMU which was a complete fail and we were kicked out, our rebate is being eroded and is under constant threat and there is current discussions about making us put VAT on food
Take a lesson from history, even if people think Cameron’s “hard earned” concessions are reason enough to stay in, you can guarantee from day one the EU will begin the process of reversing the issues, and it will do so
Do you seriously believe you have a ‘Tory’ government running our country? If you do you are way off beam.
Cameron has opened doors to the immigrant population by more than double any previous so called ‘left wing’ group. And these are from outside the EU not those from within it. You know, the ones we are supposed to have control over. Cameron did a deal with India to take in millions more of that population. All kept quiet of course.
I repeat, our government, no matter what it says on the label, is identical with policies whoever sits in the PM seat, as it is not run by those we vote for. It is in the hands of the Globalist contingent. Like that or not.
It does take a little while to absorb but finally it falls into place, once you grasp the reality of what is going on.
This shows that immigration from outside Europe, or, those who are so called controlled, is higher than it was under the Blair ‘socialist’ regime and his open door policy.
No wonder Cameron said when he was running for election in 2010 that he was the heir to Blair.
This may interest you. It exposes some of the extremity of spin and the effect on our every day reality.
Catherine, I fully agree and understand what you say but I think again I have been taken to literally where as my point is a general one regarding the undermining of national democracy by the EU
If at the next UK general election there is a landslide 100% vote which democratically elects the Monster Raving Looney Party into government, why should the UK be subjected to serious policies from the EU?
I do not think that Tony Blair following the led of Bush has anything to do with UK’s EU membership. Ever since the World War, UK has been the closest ally of the America. Ever since the inauguration of the Cold War, the US has been leading the West on the political and ideological confrontation with the Soviet Union, still after the Cold War, all so-called democratic countries had to shake hand with the US president and take a photo in the White House. It is your leaders of the West who have been submitted yourselves to leadership of the American with the consent of their own people, as if your leaders are not shaking hand with the American president, they don’t have the legitimacy to govern. This has been continued till all the political leaders are driven away from their office by people’s vote after the invasion to Iraq without finding any weapon of mass destruction. In addition, the 2008 Financial Crisis broke out from the American Wall Street, European people start to realized that your closest ally and international rating agents dominated by the American interests have been telling lies and giving AAA grade to rubbish. This has fueled further resentment towards the US. Ever since then, political leaders have refrained from visiting the White House. We have not seen shake hand photos at the White House for some years still now when the UK is still an EU member state. There is nothing to do with EU membership and your leader’s following American led action blindly.
Of course the Eurozone is not sustainable. Thus, if the Eurozone collapses cui bono? Primarilly , the Amercan dollar- which is no longer the dominant economy.
Anyone remember Winston Churchill? Oh yeah he was the little Englander who sent the British to help the rest of Europe, our forefathers died in their thousands, several of my family are buried in Commonwealth War Graves in Belgium and France – the price they paid to defend the French, Belgians, and half of Europe, another died at Gallipoli while the Italian leader changed sides, history tells it’s own story – we are strong without the EU and will remain so.. oh yeah back to dear old Winston, who gave the best advice…he said ” We have our own area, our own task. We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea”. The man was way before his time, we could do with a PM with a pair of gonads right now!
I´m sorry this is a ridiculous reason to get out of the EU. Britain or Europe today cannot be compared with that of 60 years ago. The question is whether the UK is better or worse of today outside the EU. Do we have the political leadership today to guide us through the intricacies of standing alone or standing up for our rights within the EU. Do we have the necessary industries to sell our products abroad or not. So folks lets stop talking with our emotions and start to think with our brains. I personally do not have enough “good plain facts” to make an intelligent decision yet.
Lisa has a valid point. Just a reminder to please re visit (during times of EU inspired confusions)- Article 1 in both the UN Charter & International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ratified in 1945) – the right to “self determination”- aka political sovereignty.
One hears so many times the wish for a “European” USA (or USE). The US- not to forget- is however a fully sovereign nation with a solid constitution since 1788 and has a mighty army- all its members swearing a solemn oath to their sovereign country & constitution.
The EU political treaties are a lousy and incomplete attempt to hoodwink this continent into something which it is not & never will be! It will remain a lame duck copy of the US & a victim of a global corporate conspiracy- to be easier controlled by the Rothschild’s & some co opted Luxembourgers & their friends!
To develop a fair European trading block & to prevent corporations via TTIP to become our government masters- is a difficult enough task already!
And if you move into a cave and light a fire, you won’t need to spend money on heating, Lisa.
Lisa, I don’t think that Churchill sending thousands of the British to the war is not only to help the rest of Europe. It is because Churchill knows that if the European continent is ruled by the new giant, Germany, UK would be isolated at the Northern Sea with all its southern exits would be blocked! What I am trying to say is that no country can survive alone, particularly in this jungle like international arena, which is, collective security is not only a slogan of the post-World War international relations but a forward looking strategy of the modern era. The fact is, we are now in a post-modern era, which is, there is no one single political ideology dominated the post-modern international system becomes a global and multi-polar system…
He was also the WORM who SOLD eastern Europe to the russians in order to keep things cozy for the west.
We do not forget that either, “Lisa”.
In the UK moving to a cave and lighting a fire therein stopped being a la mode centuries ago!
Is this common in your beggared, buggered, benighted and baloney country?
Joking apart, you will miss the UK’s money if a Brexit happens.
Whilst all the politicians battle it out amongst themselves how on earth do we, the voting public in this referendum, get relevant information to make a decision?? There is so little real data, just rhetoric. Time for someone or some organisation to cut across the nonsense exchange between politicians and start educating the public properly about the pros and cons. Let’s get out of the schoolroom and have a proper dialogue with real data!
Ray, maybe this hint could assist?
“I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.” – Albert Einstein
Yasmine don’t be ridiculous, our standard of living will improve when we aren’t paying VAT on food, which the EU will without a doubt soon bring in, I’m tired of the racist remarks from people outside of the United Kingdom, stick to facts!
What racist remark have I made, Lisa? Surely it would have been removed by the page moderators, if it was so?
The European Union
Why we might choose to leave the EU….
1. The EU is a customs zone not a free trade bloc and after 40 years less than 5% of UK business trades with the EU ‘partners’
2. 65-75% of all laws effective UK are created or established in Brussels not Westminster
3. Net migration from EU just in the last 3 years is 819,000
4. Net contribution by UK taxpayers in 2015 was £8.5billion
5. As an additional layer of government each MEP costs annually £1.79m, x3 times that of an MP at Westminster
6. The common agricultural policy due to subsidies costs each UK family £1200 per year in higher food bills
7. The common fisheries policy means we cannot enforce 200 mile limit (most of the North Sea) around the UK
8. We vote for a party of UK government and are largely governed by Brussels
9. The countries with the highest GDP per capita in Europe are Norway and Switzerland who are not in the EU. Both export more, proportionately, to the EU, than Britain does.
10. Outside the EU, Britain would be free to negotiate much more liberal trade agreements with third countries than is possible under the Common External Tariff.
Tomorrow the benefits
At the moment I’ve got lot sod people will be shocked and ‘Cheese’ any more help appreciated!
After 40 years, the merging process has rendered UK business multinational business. Besides, UK is producing things common to all European products. The way to survive is to do business with non-European economies, which is what the UK business are doing, I think! Go global rather than confining UK at Europe and commodity price would only race to the bottom when UK compete only the European market.
If UK has no migrants, I do not think that it can have a relatively good economic growth when comparing with other non-English speaking economies.
Be fair, we cannot emphasize only how many billion the UK taxpayers are contributing to the EU. How much the UK has benefited from being an EU member needs to calculate. It should be quite clear that EU membership ought to have contribute much more to the UK economy than 8.5 billion pounds. Besides, we do not know how much more tax the British enterprises and people need to pay without an EU membership status…
Martyn, this is an excellent article and I look forward to the next instalment. I would love to see reasons to stay in as well.
Many people do not really realize that we are in a turbulent era created by the globalization process since the 70s of the last century. The emergence of a global system needs new strategies to overcome new challenges it is creating. The EU is actually a product to cope with the new challenges. The collapse of the Soviet Union makes ideology irrelevant in international politics as we have seen that democracies are doing business with communist rule China, Vietnam and recently Cuba. The 1997 Asian Financial Crisis marks the emergence of China as a regional economic stabilizing force. The 9/11 and current international war on terror mark the irrelevant of national boundary for terrorists come from both outside and inside of any country. The 2008 financial crisis break out from the Wall Street but Europe is still struggling to recover… The current difficulties are not result of EU but a consequence of a drastic changes in the international system which cannot be handled with traditional foreign policy inherited from the last century. Leaving EU does not solve UK’s problem, instead EU needs to make itself an even strong union to cope with the new crises. Leaving EU would not be making UK any better, instead it is putting the UK to an isolated situation to confront new challenges alone!
Do you not realise how expensive our products will become if tariffs are reintroduced. Families on the bread line are already struggling as it is. I think the UK really misses the point of the EU. We should get our people travelling and building better ties within the EU (See ERASMUS). The UK on it’s little island is isolated enough as it is but our attitude towards people born in other countries really holds us back. I think a referendum on the EU is just irresponsible. Politicians learn about this and understand the benefits and problems of the EU. The general public do not. Most people only understand what they see on the news which is not a true picture and why are we one of the only countries where everyone votes but nobody learns about politics?
However, I do agree that average commodity price is quite high after the use of Euro. I wonder whether this has adversely affecting people of member states with poor economic condition.
“Most people only understand what they see on the news which is not a true picture”….. this applies to your reasons given to stay in as well as the reasons to leave
Prices may actually drop, wages may go up, who knows, you don’t know any more than the rest of us
Families on the breadline in the UK are struggling significantly because of EU immigration which forces down the wages of families on the breadline.
ERASMUS is a pro-EU propaganda initiative.
Many people in the UK are unaware that Euronews [the anti-UK RACIST ‘news’ channel] peddles a deliberate anti-Anglo-Saxon agenda.
You do not appear to want a plebiscite – another anti-democratic EU characteristic.
Some of the general public may actually understand BETTER than you what being in the EU means.
Please Zoe, mark my words – in 10 years time:
when the EU has foisted TTIP on the UK via the EU,
when the NHS turns into an American style system,
when large corporations run UK prisons,
when big business dominates UK schools,
when large corporations can sue governments for potential loss of profits [see what the EU says about Scotland wanting to introduce a minimum tariff per alcohol unit in a bid to save lives],
when the 8 poorest regions in the Northern EU [all British] get poorer still after wealth re-distribution by the EU to corrupt club-Med nations,
I believe that many UK citizens will revolt.
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Tariffs are only self imposed. For example the US will not buy our cars at rrp so we have to sell them at a price the US are willing to buy. However if you bring a Jaguar into the UK from the US OUR government will insist on you paying 28% to bring it back into the country.
To understand tariffs I’d point you in the direction of Professor Minford of Economics @ Cardiff University.
Oh err, it appears that you have made an emotional, illogical, offensive and incorrect comment.
What country do you hail from again BTW?
Leave. Gods, let them leave. Or hell… KICK them out.
And then stop playing nice.
We can hit them with some tariffs they’ll never see it coming !
The EU must show that it ALLOWS countries to leave, but that it is willing to make life MISERABLE for those who – otherwise more countries will think they can get the benefits without cashing in.
Go ( to hell ) UK already !
Really & who is WE? 7,85 mio Bulgarians?
Att.: all 15 EU “receiver-subsidized Members”:
The Treaty of Nice (2003) defines the current (contradictory) and complicated EC voting system (352 votes, ~500mio people & constantly in “amendment” mode) within the 27 strong European Council (+No. 28 Croatia in 2013) applicable until 31 October 2014- or more exactly- by request until 31 March 2017 under the Lisbon rules-(“double majority”).
Stats show: “Bulgaria” with her ~7.85 mio people received 10 EC voting rights- equal to e.g. Sweden & Austria. So lets compare some figures:
The average (2007-2013) contributions to the EU budget show:
*Austria 2.5% & GDP growth 0.1%, net contributions + € 733 mio,
*Bulgaria 0.32% & GDP growth 0.7%, net receipts (“minus”) € 873 mio,
*Germany 19.9% & GDP growth 0.3%, net contributions + € 9,507 mio.
*Sweden 2.68% & GDP growth 0.8%, net contributions + € 1,318 mio,
*UK 10.7% & GDP growth 0.5%, net contributions + € 4,872 mio,
*How would the EU divide the new available UK voting rights-
*Compensate for the loss of UK’s net € 4,872 mio EU contributions
*what would the effect on GDP growth- specifically for the 15 recipient (beggars) Members be?
The attitude & behavior of some EU beggar nations/voters/Euro recipients are, as if they already own a majority EC voting right and portray a sense of arrogant entitlement. This is surely annoying to many and the opposite of being humble & grateful. In fact it is downright rude, shortsightedness & boisterous.
I notice with concern a similar attitude within Muslim refugees- once the reached the save haven of Europe- they develop & exert ever greater pressures on their hosts to demand compliance to suit their culture- without regard & intend to ever integrate willingly into their European host’s way of live.
Their demand is reverse- like Germany with a ~20%- acting as a “majority” in a similar boisterous fashion under so called “equals”!
Many in the UK want to leave the EU – we are sick and tired of paying for ungrateful economically [you are an EU net contributions beggar nation], politically [see TI corruption Perceptions Index], culturally [I mean the ‘Cheeky Girls’ – really] and morally [See TI again] inferior countries like yours.
Rest assured though that if the UK leaves it will take longer for the Romanian infrastructure to progress from steam to electricity, abacuses to computers and from tunics to suits. :)
As regards hitting the UK hard post an implausible Brexit please note that tariffs are illegal unless sanctioned by the WTO and besides I’m sure that any Romanian Doctors would NOT leave the UK NHS even if their UK wages were halved as that would still mean they would be earning 5x more than they would be in Romania.
If the EU pushes too hard post-Brexit then the UK would never re-join the EU and would be more liable to join NAFTA or ASEAN or whatever than the demographically-challenged and geographically-challenged and hyper-corrupt EU.
PS: I recall you spouting off over the ‘non-invasion’ of the UK by Romanians. Erm, FYI the invasion is well underway and is further depressing the wages of the UK lower and working classes as many [not all] unqualified, ill-educated, English-language challenged types from hyper-racist Romania [against the Roma] leave their inferior country towards pastures that are actually green as opposed to faecal-coloured.
PPS: I can’t blame them BUT such a large vampiric diaspora is negatively effecting the UK’s infrastructure eg healthcare, education etc etc and making life difficult for the UK’s poor.
PPPS: I’ve never heard a Romanian say ‘thank you UK for all your financial help’ – care to break the mould old bean?
Wow, Tarquin, the arrogance and hatred are unbelievable! I didn’t know there were such people in the UK…you really think there is no electricity in Romania? What else do you think?
Adrian Limbidis…”,it is willing to make life MISERABLE for those who [leave[”
So the mask slips and the real face of the EU appears… “Mutual cooperation, but only on OUR terms” (add evil laugh here)
Almost all the answers on the “remain” side seem be “we don’t dare” (or from Europe “you don’t dare”.) Very little of a positive, actually attractive, image is being presented.
Not even in the future as “reform is needed” is another regular refrain.heard from even the most pro-remain contributors.
Clearly, your sense of humour differs from mine.
What do you think?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/a-black-day-for-disabled-people-as-government-pushes-through-cuts-to-esa-a6918421.html We can’t afford to help our disabled, why should we keep subsidising the rest of Europe when our own people are suffering HUGE welfare cuts, you stay in hell Buddy, you’re only angry because we don’t want to support the rest of the EU any more. The trade deficit proves you need us more than we need you – do some research before you keep slagging off the UK – oh and if the UK is so bad – what does everyone want to come here?
Tarquin Farquhar, when did you come from Pakistan and when did you start accusing other nations of being beggars? It seems you have forgotten very quickly what your own motherland is like? It is obvious that your values are hatred, agression, ignorance, oppression and discrimination of those who are different from you. Therefore, you are better suited to comment on Afghanistani affairs, but definitely not on European! You simply don’t know anything about Europe, its cultures and civilisations! Your comments are spewing ignorance, hatred and intolerance! Don’t think that since you are in the UK, you are sitting on the right side of God! Be respectful, especially being a guest on our continent (or its islands)!
EU reform- proactive, you seem to be choking with figures, but you forgot one – UK foreign aid – 12 billion a year, to some of the most corrupt “beggar” countries in the world – Pakistan, Ethiopia, Bangladesh, India, Nigeria, Sierra Leone and others. Can you offer the same breakdown of what Britain is benefitting in return of sponsoring these “beggars” (as you term poorer countries in need of financial assistance)? Why is this aid not axed yet, or may be you want to potray yourself as a nation full of love and compassion towards all suffering human beings in the world, UNLESS those human beings are from Eastern Europe? The mask of tolerance is falling! British people in favour of exit from EU would tolerate anyone in need but not their European brothers (English culture is much closer to the other Christian European cultures, including Eastern European, than with Muslim Asian or African ones)! So you got rid of discrimination against Africans, but replaced it with a new black sheep, or white sheep, I should say! I thought British values had improved since the 1700s, but it seems I was wrong!
@Maia- Hi there!…………”choking with figures”? Maybe, but it’s better to use neutral numbers to portray uncomfortable & hard facts, void of sentiments, emotion & blustery.
Dear Maia, i do/did not have any personal argument with you or your comments nor what YOUR political EU stance may be (“democratic choice”)- only with (part) of the present (unworkable) EU ideologies- suzerainty and its unfolding consequences!
I responded to a certain “Adrian Limbidis”- who better deserves to be ignored- but needs to be reminded from time to time that “King Vlad’s” times are long past.
I believe he did not win any Mr. EU titles nor was he appointed a model pro EU ambassador by the EC- since his mundanity would surely disqualify him.
Any foreign aids issue- (brought uncalled for into this discussion)- given in addition to net EU contributions to the 15 recipient EU members- is & should not be a concern of the EU nor any of its Members. Should that however be the case- would add another good reason to demand our full sovereignty back- which i stand for.
Oh, err – please refrain from venting your inarticulate spleen – you only reinforce the negative stereotype associated with under-informed pro-EU zealots!
The EU has attempted to unify Europe and got it horribly wrong . The introduction of the euro at the wrong time ,expansion south ,at the wrong time and expansion east in a hurry to take control of post soviet states . The EU has failed in almost every area it has ventured outside the original concept of a free trade area .
UK governments has often rebelled against further integration to appease the people yet then further down the road let the very same laws or legislation through under the cover of darkness hoping nobody will notice .
The free movement of working people has somehow changed into the free movement of jobseekers ,scroungers and beggars . Camerons ‘reforms’ will have little effect and lets be honest were a side show to the main point .
I’m on the leave side ,I don’t see any way we can stay in with the current set up that ignores the spirit of its own treaties in favour of its own agenda .I love Europe (well apart from France) , I travel all over it enjoying the subtle differences of culture ,I work in various countries ,I also don’t have a European passport which kind of blows away any argument for staying in as regard ease of travel (I’m often through border control quicker than my EU passport carrying travel companions)
Anyway I’m waffling ,give me a good reason to stay that wont apply if leave and I’ll think about it
Yasmine, you love stirring it, but you are attacking people you know nothing about. My husband came to Romania several years running, helped re-build schools and playgrounds for the kids, hospitals and such. All at his own expense and in his free time. We know how poor the country is – but we don’t hate it, we just don’t fancy having the țigani driving horses and carts down out High Street. ;) As for attacking the name Tarquin, sure it’s not Anglo-Saxon it’s Latin, a language that has been integrated into English, no one speaks anglo-saxon any more by the way. Seriously though, you still haven’t given any good reason why we should stay – in fact your attitude makes me even more determined to up the campaign to leave!
@EU Reform- Proactive
VERY good posting.
BTW, I think last year the UK was a net EU contributor to the tune of €10B-€12B.
My island friend- yes- using similar stats & embarking on even more detailed scrutinizes into the progress of every one of the “15 European (loudmouth) laggards”- being (endlessly) rescued from drowning in a sea of negative financial and MORAL & ETHIC waters by the 13 EU leading nations by throwing them expensive life jackets- would reveal even more interesting facts!
If one looks at Romania’s 21.7 mio people:
it contributes 1.11% to the EU budget, allocated 14 voting “weights”, (similar the Netherlands 13), GDP growth 1.4%, net “receipts” (minus) – € 1,320 mio!
Germany, France, UK & Italy all have a similar number of 29 voting weights in the EC. One can further conclude- that generally, the 15 EU laggards achieved a higher GDP growth than the 13 payer Members- mainly to the latter detriment- or their generosity & willingness to re-balance (as per EU’s mission) the backwardness / inequalities of the 15 within the 28.
Once the UK left, and even if not- a “re balancing” or DEEP reform on several fronts within EU (allocations) becomes imperative. No more business as usual of the “establishment”- refer to the US D.Trump r-evolution!
Specifically Germany, as the financially strongest, but dumbest, needs to be cut down to size- to remind them of their ONLY 29 voting weights & to get used to consult with the other Members “nicely” before blundering AGAIN!
Tarquin, below is to confirm your figure with a forward looking projection of UK net contributions 2016-2021- in “billion British pounds”- not Euros! (Sounds high-eh?) Stats must be carefully read! “Not to be sniffed at- except by the “entitlement-ists!”
@EU Reform- Proactive
Thank you mein Austrian freund?
……………& if true, it has to remain a global secrete- strictly confidential & “geheim”!
Yes, net contributor with £12 billion foreign aid to some of the most corrupt countries in the world – Pakistan, Ethiopia, India, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, or “basket cases” like you would term them… Do you dare to say the same things about those “beggar” nations, like you do about Romania, Bulgaria, or Poland? Your arrogance has no limits! You are only attacking those who are defenseless and you think it makes you stronger? No, quite the opposite. This is just the illusion of the bully!
Hi Maia! Single UK commentators or the UK nation do not need my (neutral) support, since they have proven throughout history a unique ability to persevere, prosper & lead.
I only respond as an addendum to “His Honorable Limbidis’s” bluster and refer you to my remark about foreign aid in my above reply to you.
Maia, I think you will actually find that more people in the UK object to our excessive foreign aid budget than to the EU net contributions..but this is an EU forum so its generally better to stay on topic
I’m on the leave side, subject to convincing arguments the other way.
I don’t see the EU willing to undertake reform which is already badly needed, as admitted by many of its own politicians and a good number of “remain” campaigners. And it still. wants to expand, reducing whatever influence Britain. might have, as one of 28, 29, 30 countries.
And “in” but as a somewhat detached troublemaker, I don’t think we’d be looking at oodles of goodwill. More like whatever “payback” could be lined up, since the leave option had now been closed down.
in England we have not enough jobs,no schools,no houses.its 100% more Christian. ie church of England and roman catholic and happy with each others religion. not like the Asians squabbling all the time and hard to live with it suicidal England would never be the same again and a disaster will follow without a doubt its already proven.
Perhaps someone can help answer a question or two for me? Much of the debate it seems, is centred around immigration. If we start with non EU immigrants. I am of the understanding that Westminster currently decides the criteria for entry or not? If that’s true (and it may not be, hence the question) then in/out does not affect non EU citizens.
A second question about EU citizens who currently have freedom to enter the UK. I saw that even UKIP are saying that they would allow immigrants in to cover skills and job shortages. There are stats that show most EU immigrants do in fact find work and that most find it in low paid jobs in which they have an entitlement to in-work benefits. Whilst this is something Cameron is trying to reduce with his pre-referendum talks, I’m wondering who we would get to carry out these low paid tasks? Wouldn’t even UKIP allow them in as they are effectively filling a void in the jobs market?
All in all then, apart from the principle of who controls our borders (still very important I know), would it be fair to say that the actual numbers wouldn’t change if we voted out?
Finally if all the above is true then shouldn’t we be debating something other than immigration which is something of a red herring?
It seems to me that the UK pays Billions more into the EU than any other country
and recieves far less from the EU. Europe are absolutely desperate to keep the
UK in the EU and there is a lot of scaremongering,spin and bullying to this aim!
Immigration is running out of control an there are too many people coming into the
UK putting more strain on services such as the NHS etc. All we hear as well is that
we are living longer and therefore the more the people the longer we have to work
to get a pension and some forecasts predict the young today may have to work until
they are 80! As for security we are an Island and therefore controlling our borders should be far easier than any country in Europe. Therefore I will be voting OUT.
How much does UK receive in return of its £12 billion foreign aid to some of the world’s poorest and most corrupt nations? Immigration is not only from EU, in fact it is larger from outside the EU! These migrants are surely putting more strain on NHS, but everyone seems to be transfixed on European nationals, for some unknown reason, as if they are the only foreigners in the country, causing all the problems you are facing! The majority of them come with ready job offers in spheres which are already in shortage of domestic workers. For example, these are 85% of Bulgarian and Romanian arrivals, according to the ONS and around 60% of other EU migrants. Immigration from EU is already regulating itself, it is the non-EU one that is out of control, especially illegal immigration! Wake up!
In reply to “Yasmine”, your ignorance knows no bounds, the only thing you got right is that I am over 55 – this means I have had a lot more life experience than you and have lived in this country before the EU slithered in under the guise of the EEC. We didn’t give consent for our laws to be made by Brussels,the European Commission, which is unelected, has the monopoly of proposing all EU legislation which it does in secret. It also has the power to issue regulations which are automatically binding in all member states. If this information had been available to the British people in 1975, we wouldn’t be having this debate now. Undoubtedly the vote would have been a resounding NO and we would be like Norway and far better off, we need to get out now!
By withdrawing from the EU, we would make it possible to organise economic and social affairs in this country not by deliberate design from the top down, but more organically and spontaneously. From the bottom up. Instead of common financial service rules, we might instead allow competing exchanges to offer different approaches and see which one works. Rather than a Common Agricultural Policy for millions of farmers, we might, you know, allow millions of farmers to each have their own farm policy for their farm.
Britain’s refusal to be reconciled to being in the EU is not ultimately anything to do with racism, flags or anthems. It’s because we know in our very bones that it is a daft way to run a whole continent. I suspect it is not only the Brits who will soon be demanding the freedom to opt out.
I’m sorry that you don’t understand the British sense of humour, it’s just one more thing that separates us and I would hate to see that squashed by the ever increasing petty laws derived by Brussels.
There is only one way to get the change we need, and that is to vote to go, because all EU history shows that they only really listen to a population when it says No.
Well. I’m off to work now, so no more time to answer your puerile post, In England we say “put that in your pipe and smoke it” but since you won’t understand that, I will say – off you go in your carutza and have a great day :)
As for calling me racist – have you no sense of humour? or are you using translating program to make your statements which is incapable of picking up nuances and tongue in cheek remarks? Since you have attacked me and said I am uneducated, I will tell you now, I’m in BREXIT but not UKIP; I have more letters after my name than I have in it, as does my husband who as I told you before has done a lot of voluntary work in Romania (and other countries). I work along side people from all over the world and have lived and worked in third world countries us, but it doesn’t make me racist either.
We have lost control, even of our fishing rights,
That pretty much covers it.
And when opponents have personal abuse as their selected weapon, well that is just revealing of what sort of position and arguments they have.
The character of the EU? The bullying of the Irish voters over the Lisbon treaty was enough of an example : “You’ve voted no? OK, now go back and vote again until you give the proper answer.”
You seem to imagine some kind of heaven after Britain supposedly leaves EU! It really sounds like a serious illusion and reminds me of what was initially meant for the new “democracies” in Lybia, Iraq and Afghanistan – peace, stability and prosperity, rule of law… We all know what happened next… I hope in UK there is no hard awakening to the reality, like in those countries… I think that one of the first things to happen, if Britain left the EU, would be for Scotland to leave the UK. Another real possibility is for the British pound to lose its value due to the lack of predictability of economic conditions after the exit (we might even see that before the referendum). I think the mistake of Britain is that it does not want to work together with its European partners to solve problems… You think you know more than everyone else, yet do not know the future – what will actually happen? There is no government action plan that covers all eventualities… It just seems a step that is not well thought of, simply an emotional spur, rather than a rational and deep understanding that leaving is the best way. God help you!
I have no intention to take emotional sides over the 2nd “Battle of Britain”- as an “UK outsider” being another EU contributor- except to show deep understanding for all who love their sovereignty and proudly respect their ancestors achievements.
In a spirit of tolerance, please explain what drives other EU members (specifically the 15 recipients) to display such overly concern and “democratic intolerance” hell bent to prescribe to others? Is that EU doctrine?
To Maia Alexandrova
“You seem to imagine some kind of heaven after Britain supposedly leaves EU!”
No. I envisage a messy and lively few years. But I’ve been thinking long tern as well as assessing the current situation.
The pound losing value is double-edged: it helps exporters and restrains imports for a start!
(remember, the USA has for ages accused China of keeping its currency deliberately low-valued to give it an economic *advantage*) .
“I think the mistake of Britain is that it does not want to work together with its European partners to solve problems…”
The EU has shown remarkably little desire or ability to solve its varied problems.
If it won’t reform… better away from it.
“, simply an emotional spur, rather than a rational and deep understanding that leaving is the best way. ”
Sorry, I don’t do emotions much, so yes my call of “leave” is not based on them, or on xenophobia, or on nostalgia.
Scotland will not definitely leave the UK, lets be clear on that
Firstly, they may not get public opinion for another “once in a generation” referendum on independence and even if they do the result may be the same as last time
The SNP is promoting the idea that there is an overwhelming desire from Scottish people to stay in the EU and to be forced out is an excuse for another independence referendum. What is being conveniently ignored is that there is quite a large percentage of Scots who also want out of the EU…. the EU killed off the fishing industry and decimated shipbuilding with its draconian rules on contracts. Added to that they have a deep seated hate of the Tories so the more Cameron pushes for staying in the EU the more Scots will vote for the opposite
Scotland leaving the UK is just more scaremongering by those who haven’t a clue
Furthermore, if Scotland votes to leave the UK then, this time non-British EU types will not be allowed to vote and thus the ‘stay-in’ campaign will be buoyed by the ‘stay-out’ campaign therefore losing c10% of their electorate.
Maia, no one knows what the future holds.. but we do know that if we had listened to Enoch Powell in 1968, we wouldn’t be in this mess. Comparing the UK to Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan is simply ludicrous
Tony Blair thinks we should remain. He also thought we should invade Iraq.
It’s not deep or solid logic, but whatever Tony Blair wants, my first instinct is to press for the opposite.
Putin thinks you should leave.
The US says you should stay.
The boss of UK pubs group JD Wetherspoon has backed the campaign for Britain to leave the European Union.
Syed Kamall, Britain’s most senior Conservative MEP has said he will vote for the UK to leave the European Union at the 23 June referendum.
That doesn’t mean I think that settles the argument about which way to vote.
But with other names in business and politics it should settle the proposition seen here that a “leave” vote is a blindingly obvious wrong move only being adopted by those ignorant, racist or nostalgic.
We DEFINITELY NEED OUT OF THE CORRUPT EU NOW so that the billions of pounds thrown away to the eu and foreign aid countries can go towards URGENT ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENTS that THIS COUNTRY and OUR PEOPLE are in NEED of plus we NEVER had the VAST AMOUNT of problems caused before all the conniving government traitors signed in to the corrupt EU. So we DEFINITELY and DESPERETLY NEED OUT NOW
‘Wonderif’ you would want to invest in a business called the ‘EU’ .
Here are the conditions:
The management are generally considered undemocratic (and sometimes have been electorally sacked) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union
The finances have not been signed off as true and correct for nearly 17yrs and only signed lately with disregard to the issues. (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110202/debtext/110202-0004.htm)
The fact that middle management (an ex UK P.M.?) can fire whistleblowers who point out the vulnerability of their accounts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marta_Andreasen
One director can, for the sake of vanity, demand that once a month a week of meetings have to be held in their country at the cost of millions. ( the Strasbourg circus) See section ‘European Parliament’ at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_seats_of_the_European_Union#Oneseat_campaign
The ‘EU’ company demands that to trade with them you need to pay them to sell your products on their shelves.
Would you invest?
That’s an interesting point of view- but the EU already exists. The wonderif perspective is to wonder whether leaving will hand economic difficulties to our kids. What’s the plan, how would we negotiate our way through, the EU would hold most of the cards, what are the risks of leaving? The self determination argument stacks up – but I’m far from convinced from all other angles. Convince me.
Coming from the EU skeptic country of Denmark, I watch in horror as UK prepares for the referendum of June 23th. Though I sympathies with the UK and support Cameron’s demands, I fear that the ongoing refugee crisis will see the UK leave the EU.
With her population of 60 million, the UK represents not just the British skeptics but all the skeptics of the 28 member states. Without Britain in the EU, the remaining “officially” skeptic countries, countries with opt outs clauses who are not fully member of the EU, will only account for 15 million out the EU’s 500 million.
I fear that without the UK in the EU, smaller EU skeptic countries will be forced to integrate further.
I beg the UK to stay in the EU. Stay to help preserve the skeptic voices the EU can otherwise ignore. Stay to influence EU legislation in a more fair direction. Please, please stay.
But maybe if we leave, the other skeptics will be able to raise their case in their individual countries far more effectively.
Skeptics and loyalists (I can’t see many actual enthusiasts for the EU as it is) speak of the need for major reform.
I don’t think there’s enough will for reform, and change of objective, to deliver enough of it to properly allay the skeptics’ reasons for being skeptical.
“I fear that without the UK in the EU, smaller EU skeptic countries will be forced to integrate further.”
Yes, “ever closer union” is there as a formerly unstated (it wasn’t mentioned in the UK in the 1975 referendum) aim and goal.
“Stay to influence EU legislation in a more fair direction.”
I think that’s been tried. With an EU of 6 or 12 countries it might have been manageable. With 28 (or 29, or 30…) I don’t see the hope left in that route.
If Britain can show it can be done, then the populations of “skeptical countries”
should work towards demanding their own referendums, boosted by an example.
Some European politicians fear a domino effect: they know several countries with populations far more disenchanted with the EU than the respective country’s leaders are admitting.
The problem now is Nina if the UK, as the most euro-sceptic country around votes to stay in, the EU will see this as a green light to forge ahead with all its federalist might. The EU needs a good kick up the @rse to bring its elitist, blinkered, over-paid and over-fed bureaucrats back to reality and the only way to do that is with a UK out vote
I’m sorry Nina, but you just made me even more determined to leave the EU. The UK cannot hold the EU together – it has failed massively and the UK needs to walk away and let the rest of Europe sort themselves out.
George Osborne in the budget speech today,
“Britain will be stronger, safer and better off inside a reformed European Union.”
And I’d be better off with a million pounds in the bank.
*** We don’t have a reformed European Union and we’re not likely to get one.***
In which case any statement about the best choice given a European union that doesn’t actually exist is utterly irrelevant. How about the best choice given the EU that actually exists, but (it seems almost a universal consent) badly needs major reform?
Bravo! Good to see I’m not the only one to see through his very poor speech! The sooner we are OUT the better!
We got it again today with Corbyn: unable to avoid admitting in his “remain” speech how much the EU needs reform. And desperately overoptimistic on the chances of getting it.
To stay in the “hope” that things will get better with an EU that even its supporters don’t like very much, now that IS taking a risk.
@ Chris & Lisa
I have posted this link before but it is worth repeating, this is the content of a “vote yes” propaganda leaflet given out in the run up to the UK’s 1975 referendum on the EEC
Here are one or two interesting quotes
“We explain why the Government, after long, hard negotiations, are recommending to the British people that we should remain a member of the European Community”
“We confidently believe that these better terms can give Britain a New Deal in Europe”.
All sounds very familiar doesn’t it……..
Yes, familiar, but also a smoke and mirrors job,(again) leaving things out that might not help the cause.
“The common market” is mentioned, but not “ever closer union.”
Not a thing about how much of the British fishing industry other European countries will demand a share of.
But better than now: sitting round a table with nine other countries is one thing, in terms of making a difference.and pushing through reform.
Sitting round a table with twenty-seven other countries and trying to make a difference is something else entirely.
I caught another couple of comments from “remain” people yesterday with “… although it needs much reform… ” (or words to that effect) in their arguments.
If that’s what they can’t avoid admitting, it has to be at least that bad.
I agree, bit of a cliche but this is “not what we signed up for” I’m old enough to have voted in 1975 but I voted NO, even then I suspected that it would grow like some Monster from the deep and crush our traditions, culture and ability to have self government. The United States of Europe was something I didn’t want then and certainly don’t want now. I hard a newsreader say a few nights ago that there had been a terrorist alert in “the capital” she was talking about Europe – it shocked me.
As someone who regularly attends board meetings I can say categorically that 9 round the table is difficult but 27 all wanting different things and each out for what they can, get spells disaster, and that’s what the EU has become – each new country that joins wants the same as those already in the EU but most are unlikely to be able to pay their way, putting an even bigger burden on the UK and giving more power to Brussels.
We keep being told we can’t survive outside of the EU – look at Norway (a country I know very well), the population is smaller than that of London, but they trade quite happily, have a good standard of living, a great health service,good welfare system, great education etc., but even though my son has lived there 20 years and I have two grandchildren who are Norwegian Nationals I can’t just decide to go and live there. Their immigration policy allows for asylum seekers and they take their fair share of refugees, but THEY decide, not some faceless bureaucrats in Brussels.
Reform is not going to happen, therefore there is only one way for us to go and that’s OUT!
Ja eg har livet i Norge også. It’s a great, highly affluent country with a massive sovereign wealth fund derived from its oil resources. Evenso in order to maintain their access to the EEA and avoid the penalties of the common tarrif they have accepted EU trade and immigration rules – you or I could move there tomorrow. Unlike the UK they have no opportunity to influence their implementation. Wouldn’t the same happen to us?
Democracy, what democracy?
A couple of years ago everyone living in the EU was told that the maximum allowable power of domestic vacuum cleaners was to be restricted to 1200 Watts or some such arbitrary value. The actual level of the restriction is irrelevant; but the absence of democracy in the way it was introduced is absolute. Ever since this dictat was issued, efforts have been made to discover the identity of the individual responsible for signing it off; i.e. the person who decided it should become law. However, despite numerous attempts it has not been possible to discover the identity of the politician concerned, thereby precluding any possibilty of moving on to the ultimate quest – establishing the democratic process by which the individual in question can be retained or removed from office by a satisfied or disgruntled electorate.
Perhaps some clever politician could explain to the public how this organisation manages to maintain the anonimity of its personnel whilst purporting to operate as a democracy.
“the individual responsible for signing it off”
Perhaps you think we’re in Stalinist Russia (EUSSR, anyone?) – we’re not. There is no individual “responsible for signing it off”. And he or she can’t be found, huh? Blimey. If this is how it works where you live, I hope you’re not in the EU. Or on the way out at the very least.
If the EU is truly democratic it would be possible for the electorate to remove any errant politicians via the ballot box, but this could prove tricky if the individual in question cannot be identified.
Nice reply, personally I can’t wait to leave the EU
Everyone should leave the pointless EU.
Let leave and let die!
LEAVE, it will be good for us … i’m sure they won’t -.-
I’m sorry for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but England has (and wants) TOO MANY advantages…
Aftre left the EU, UK probably will disintegrate…
Well nobody knows, let we see if is better or not
Well nobody knows, let we see if is better or not
Just let them vote on it. Once that is concluded, they will have picked a path for themselves, one they cannot back out of. However, should they decide to stay, this whole game of ambiguity has to end – they’re either in our out, not in between. Also, I really hope that if they leave, the European Commission negotiates harsh terms.
Again thise question? The UK should leave, and my nation and any with a government that cares about it’s own people…
For their sake they should leave…The EU as it’s now can not survive.
There are three claimed benefits made by EU fanatics for their EU:
1. The Euro – in reality a complete disaster for most Nations in it.
2. Schengen – In reality a complete disaster for all Nations in it.
3. Security – In reality a complete disaster for every Nations in it.
Would you vote to join or stay in such a disaster zone ?
Considering that the European so called leaders are inserting large amount of terror groups in Europe with their delusional view of the world, all countries should brake apart from the UE not just the Uk, otherwise if Europe would not be runned by the likes of the current insane aristocracy they should try to stay, as the EU was a beautiful project, but it was ruined by the Angela Merkel and the rest of the bought by Saudi Arabia pawns.
If you were asked if you wanted to join a union that had a migrant crisis, a currency crisis, a democratic deficit crisis & a terrorist crisis would you vote ‘IN’ ?
Then why would we vote to stay ‘IN’ ?
I ,m so so so sad cause we can not stand our opinion against the destroyers of EU . :( The union is one of the best ideas for centuries .
A mutually supportive and peaceful Europe is a good idea.
A free-trade area was a good idea.
But the EU, the political entity, has grown into something else, very different to what it was sold to the British public in 1975.
It has grown so fast that it is now unstable and probably also unsustainable.
And it still aims at growth, not consolidation and stability.
(add Turkey? Add Ukraine? It had to lie to itself to add Greece, but that it did.)
Time to leave in an orderly manner before it gets messy.
The EU is a social institution which makes all of us less free. It takes away our individual and national freedoms, liberties and democracy. Why are decisions about farming, fishing, weekly bin collections, and even Child seats being mandatory; imposed on us by commissioners and bureaucrats from Brussels?
Can’t our parliament make policy’s for these areas? Or local government even? It doesn’t matter whether their laws are good or bad, our freedom to hire and fire the people who make them is.
This union is only going to get closer as we inevitably hand over more power to the EU. We all become less free. The countries of Europe start to lose their unique character.
It is important for us, the whole of Europe and for freedom that this political union ends and we have a free trade agreement with the EU.
We should stay.
For what reason?
There are risks both ways: that area of “unknown” on both sides.
But the dire present and future state of the EU is clear. Even its supporters regularly mention how it needs reform… which it has repeatedly shown that it can’t do. There are not enough common interests with 28 countries (and more planned) whose aims and needs are simply too diverse.
This may be the last chance we get, So get out while we still can and before the EU has eroded everything the UK used to stand for.
We don’t want a closer union with the EU we want our country back. We didn’t fight two world wars for our freedom just to hand it over to the EU without a fight.
James, I couldn’t agree more, but with Cameron’s leaflet, the IMF and Obama all scaremongering, I fear the IN Campaign will win.
Cameron’s leaflet (using our money) got 100,000+ protest votes in almost record time on the government petition site, and is now going to be debated in Parliament as a result. (Blood on the carpet there, methinks) It has also prompted a Midlands business group to offer up to £5 million for a “leave” leaflet as a riposte. Keep fighting, and donating if you can, for LEAVE.
Chris Brown, who said there will be a debate in parliament? There’s no guarantee of that now or before the referendum, I haven’t given up, I just want the young people out there to hear both sides of the story, I really hope the LEAVE leaflet happens, I truly do!
I quote from the email I received.
“Dear Chris Brown,
Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “STOP CAMERON spending British taxpayers’ money on Pro-EU Referendum leaflets”.
The debate is scheduled for 9 May 2016.
Once the debate has happened, we’ll email you a video and transcript.
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament”
As a follow-up, in advance of the debate I’m going to prime my MP (who is already a “Leave” supporter) with my views on the matter.
Brilliant – thank you :)
That’s now over 200,000 who have objected by signing the petition.
One might almost be reduced to thanking Mr Cameron, for making so many people angry!
Today we had the same as seen so often: The Labour leader Mr Corbyn was unable to avoid admitting in his “remain” speech how much the EU needs reform. While being desperately overoptimistic (on past record) on the chances of getting it.
To make the “leave” or “remain ” choice on a EU that “might be, someday” is to take a most definite risk for the “remain” camp. They are quite likely not to get their dream, their fantasy.
Even its “supporters” don’t much like how it is now, and we should stay????
If we leave VAT should finish , but can you see them losing 110billion just because this it will be worked that we stay in .
I don’t feel I can trust ANY politician to give me the real facts on either staying in the EU or leaving. I can’t help feeling that whatever the electorate decide the vote will be rigged.
We always have and always will trade with Europe but we should not have to do as some one who doesn’t live here tells us to. If we stay in Europe, as all of Europe wants us to, as we are one of the few contributing millions and not taking, we will be far worse off. We will definitely be told to take hundreds of thousands of immigrants we don’t want or need who will take your houses, fill your schools and use your hospitals even though they have not contributed anything. Naturally we will be expected to change our Country to suit them, as we are continually doing already because the Government hasn’t got any balls to tell them to go back if they don’t like it here.
Unlike the Australian PM well if you don’t like it go back to where you came from
Good on yer blue!
Since the starting gun on the 15th April, 2016 the actions of the remain side has really stepped up a notch on their campaign of fear. The Chancellor talks about what predictions through variations and probabilities the state of the economy will look like in 2030. Well Mr Osbourne let me tell you if after years of austerity, no wage rises, overcrowded hospitals, overcrowded schools, doctors surgeries, overcrowded roads you really think you sound convincing then you are sadly mistaken. The massive influx of migration has placed a massive strain on services resulting in a less cohesive and dysfunctional society that you are expecting us to live in. After living in a country that I loved and now find myself in a country I barely recognise a brexit looks really attractive and I will be voting out.
Could’nt agree with you more, absolutly RIGHT!
This is the best definition of the E.U. that I have ever seen, and I wish I had written it!, but no, its from a gentleman named Charles Moore. in the English Daily Telegraph in his Notebook column. I Quote:-
“If there is one thing the EU is good at, it is providing career opportunities, summit meetings, conference circuits and pensions for administrative and political elites. Its fiercer critics say it is a dictatorship. They are wrong; if it were, its evil would be in plain view and we could get rid of it by getting rid of the dictator. No, the EU is an oligarchy – a form of permanent supranational government by a relatively small mutual support group of highly educated people which has worked out how to stay in power without the boring task of submitting itself to general elections.”
Is this the state with wish you wish to live with? It is a fact that bureaucracy only gets larger and the individual smaller and where the individual expression of freedom decreases. As history has taught us and the people of Europe have suffered more than the United Kingdom has in many ways. Freedom is not ‘snatched away’ but gradually eroded until the situation becomes irreversible, only then do nations protest, usually too late. Soon England will have a chance to change itself, and with luck change the EU. Make this undemocratic, monolithic, bureaucratic structure called the EU, look at itself and also change. People who wish to stay in the EU talk of changing it from within. Nonsense, how can you change an unelected, unrepresentative. elite whose very position is based on positions of absolute power, remember up at the top level THERE IS NO VETO!
Check out the organisational structure please.
Regarding our trade position with the rest of the world and the EU it is true that much needs to be debated and organised. However I seem to remember that in my school books many years ago 50% of the world was coloured pink, i.e. the British Empire. Our ports were full of ships with big ‘flappy’ things called sails which covered the world in search of markets. Yes,Yes, things have changed!, I agree but to suggest that the UK would be lost and unable to ‘make her way’ is ludicrous. The EU buys more from us than we from them, and to suggest that EU business would stop is also short sighted. I have never met a businessman who is not prepared to make money when and where its possible!! Yes it will take time, but the world has consistently underrated the UK in the past and the ‘stay in crowd’ with the doomsayers of the past should be consigned to history, as I hope they will be.
Regards Barrie Stubbs
The E.U. is failing fast and out of control. Our country is no longer ruled by the British people, it’s time to get out now, if it’s not already too late, perhaps we just might be able to pull the country from the brink of disaster, it’s time to take back control. Of course the fat cats in politics wan’t us to stay in, they wan’t an easy ride, they know it won’t be easy to sort out the mess they’ve got us into, they don’t live in our world. Mark my words, what ever the cost, the situation will get far worse if we stay in the E.U. We might be the first to leave but, we won’t be the last.
ASK YOURSELF THESE QUESTIONS.
Did the Government keep their promise to reduce
Is our N.H.S. service better or worse now?
Do you have to wait longer if you visit A&E?
Do you have to wait longer for a doctor appointment?
Are our roads and public transport more congested?
Is the housing situation better or worse now?
Can you get your child into a school of your choice
Do you feel safer on the streets now?
Do you trust politicians more or less now?
And finally, when Cameron said we would leave the E.U. if he didn’t get a good deal for Britain in his negotiations and we would be alright, why now is he all DOOM & GLOOM if we vote to leave.
VOTE TO LEAVE!!!
Cameron has been inconsistent, Corbyn has been drastically inconsistent.
They are almost viewing the voters the way some EU leaders have *said* that they view them: an inconvenience to be ignored wherever possible.
This is our one and only chance. Let’s get out.
I agree Vote Leave
The EU is unstable now, and yet.still wants to expand, adding more countries which are a poor match economically for NW Europe, and that come with their own internal and external political strifes.
This, we should stay with?
George Soros: “Europe Is On The Verge Of Collapse”
“When it becomes serious, you have to lie.”
― Jean-Claude Juncker
“I am for joining a free trade zone. The European Union is not such zone, but a zone of raging bureaucracy”
― Janusz Korwin-Mikke
Professor Giacomo Vaciago of Milan’s Catholic University: “It’s clear that the euro has virtually failed over the last ten years, even if you are not supposed to say that.”
We all know that Boris Johnson’s remarks sometimes are at best somewhat controversial but in all honesty I can’t believe his remarks about Obama were anything but deliberate. The fight to leave the E.U. will be hard enough without Boris damaging the vote to leave campaign, which he has certainly done. I can’t believe that Boris who is suppose be intelligent could be so stupid. So, I put to you, that Boris is working for Cameron, NOT US!
I vote Andrea Leadsom as our next PM!
What are the risks of starting in the European union? Many both economic and political? What was the British economy, like before we joined the European union was it economic growth higher than being in the union? The only thing, I have been hearing is politicians, economics experts and business leaders. Don’t the British people have a said in the issues concerning our future?The issues which are not the mentioned is housing crisis and illegal migration .Over burdened public services transport, NHS trust and educational needs. Universities cost is ever increasing from £1500-£9000 .British brain drain because of low income earning, high cost of living in London and south East England. There are many issues we need to consider before voting. United Kingdom is underdeveloped in other regions like North West, North central, Midlands and Scotland etc. We can’t be in the European union and develop, with laws and regulations from does who are only interested in what UK contribute Yearly and monthly. The money meant to develop UK industry, NHS trust, transport in other regions like Manchester, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Leeds, Glasgow etc are wasted on unprofitable European union projects. We need power and freedom to make trade deals more economical with other countries like India, China, Iran, Canada, Australia, USA and Africa. Which to many British citizens is impossible within the union. Lastly the inflow of people from Syria Africa Afghanistan and Iraq. Both highly dangerous illegal criminals roming freely. Our borders are not safe
We don’t need a European Union. We traded with Europe quite happily before the 1970’s with no EU regulation, no EU Commissioners and no EU flag. We became Great Britain through doing so. A vote to remain is a vote for European domination. We don’t need it, we don’t want it. We must leave the EU and become our own country once again.
The issues of migration crisis we are experienced, since the Iraqi and Syria war European union has not been handling the matter properly .Which has lead to high high waves into Europe, the calais crisis in France, Belgium Airport attack and the Paris killing. Security is not talk about, Ukraine and Russia which lead to an Netherlands airplane short down. Radicalism of Young people, travelling to Syria from Europe. Returning to cause havoc on innocent people. We don’t have control over our borders, do we? Housing crisis in London, where by Russian, Italian and Arab billionaires etc buy properties in choicest areas causing houses prices to go up ,more than 150%British laws are weak to deal with sensitive matters
You aint seen nothing yet! Wait til Turkey and Albania join Europe!
By the grace of God. We have left the European marriage. I am praying because, I believe in prayer. British government and politicians know the truth, but are not willing to tell British people the sound realities. President of Syria Ahsad said European countries, should expect thousands more refgues. American always push British politicians to react with out thinking. Thanks to Brother Obama, leaving American problems like Guns control, drugs crime, children taking Parents gun and killing people. Brother Obama now advising David Cameron and Britain, to start in unprofitable marriage of European union. When USA, has health care crisis. Is America willing to share it Sovereignty with any country? Is any country willing to be wasting £7 Billions yearly on unstable and unrealistic project called EU. ?We need money for housing, health, disabled people, single parents, homeless children etc. We need more powerful laws to control our borders .Because British people can’t decide what they want, other people, will be making decisions for us. Enough of fear tratic and bullying. Australia is not under any circumstances like us and are doing well. China and Japan are other examples. Remember we were one of the greatest Empires in the world, both economically, military and geographically.
We will be poorer.
“We will be poorer”
Well that’s not settled: economists are taking different views (in today’s news)
But I’m not taking that as a main reason for wanting to LEAVE anyway.
More the way the EU structures are increasingly ignoring EU citizens, and the way grand expansionist ideas are still being flowed at the expense of economic stability. I suggest that the higher echelons of the EU are locked in groupthink, and that can be very .dangerous.
The major problem is the mismanagement of resources and wrong policies formulated by the Conservative party. The British government can only be responsible and accountable when will are free to fomulate, our laws control our borders and resources. People and British public will see the lies, which the British politicians are telling us . European union is covering our leaders wrong misconceptions and policies. About the the gap between the rich and poor, it’s still boils down to the European union and Westminster, forgein are given assess to buy up major industries,politicians, rich people are running to tax havens in Romania, Turkey, Cezh Republic and Portugal etc. The Panama issue is there, why because British politicians and rich people have places to hide under European union lax laws
As long as we are in the European union there no way, as a Country we can have 100%, to pay attention to what matters. As a saying of my father, you can have 5 wives and take care of you all, you children and wife properly. We have our own sensitive and pressing problematic issues. Which need urgent attention, nurses and NHS trust workers in the BBC ,can’t get a family home in London on a £30000 per year. Benefits are been collected by European citizens coming from the EU. North West, North central, Midlands and Scotland with Northern Ireland is less developed, with all the European union funds. Our markets are flooded with low quality products from Europe, pressure on overstretched public services. We can follow Norway, Sweden etc Someone said in 1970, before joined the European union, we were better off. We have human resources we can develop, form trade agreement with other countries. Britain can invest in African market and less developed countries, cry for development. We have talented people who we can exchange with other countries, expertise in many ways. We can export British made goods.
If it were that easy we would be doing it already. We will be poorer.
Chris – its Ok to sacrifice wealth and wellbeing for principle as an individual – but not on behalf of others. I understand that self determination is important but so are public services.
Sheffield, I think (It’s got to be a bet, no-one knows for sure) we will in the long term be better off out, not just on idealism, from more freedom to be flexible on policies than if tied to EU, where “one size fits all” legislation is bad enough now, but will be worse with the addition of more eastern European countries, as intended. And that’s assuming the EU is not already heading for fracture. I suspect that there is a real chance that it is (see comments by George Soros and others). Better to have been out in an organised manner earlier, if that is a real possibility. Even those speaking in favour of staying with the EU keep mentioning how much it needs reform, and yet its track record of that is not good, to put it extremely mildly.
Should I vote to stay with this hypothetical “reformed EU” when that is very unlikely to happen?
We’re already managing youth unemployment better than most of the EU.
That’s a social service cost implication
We’d like better control on immigration
Definitely a social service cost.implication.
I think instability is likely either way, but for the long term a better economy outside the EU seems, to me, more probable.
But I’m still reading and listening.
(Not to those who think that I must be a racist little Englander for wanting to vote leave: they have blown their case, such as it was!)
It’s good to hear a calm voice!
Sounds like ideology and hypotheticals to me Chris. The Eu exists a post leave Uk does not. Stand fight for whats right and fix it.
Sheffield, I don’t think it is fixable. The resistance to reform is clear, and the bias of the voting systems towards the smaller members also.
Cameron claiming to have sought and obtained “reform” is a nonsense. He gained concessions (minor) from the EU: not enough to matter to UK, but enough to make the UK unpopular with the rest of the EU(“always whining for special treatment”) if the vote is to stay with the EU.
“A group of eight influential economists have thrown their support behind the Leave campaign in the UK’s referendum on EU membership.”
“EU referendum: 110 bosses say City will ‘thrive’ outside EU”
And yes, there’s news and headlines the other way, too.
It’s not a settled projection whichever way, even for experts.
And I think the EU has gone wrong in character, practice and ambition.
“Yes, Irish people, you can have a vote, as long as you vote the right way. If you don’t, you’ll just have to vote again” (On Lisbon Treaty, when more than one other country avoided having a referendum, as it was clear it would have been rejected by the electorate). Look for EU leaders wanting to ignore the EU populace… That wasn’t a one-off.
United Kingdom needs to be in total control of its Destiny. We can exchange highly qualified skilled workforce with other countries in the European union. We can set up trade agreement with other countries, where British workers can work 2 to 3years in order countries and come back and continue with in the UK. We are currently, if am correct contributing £350million every week to European union. By mathematics that is (£350×356)yearly. In total £127,750,000, 000 billion. Do your own calculations, plus the fines let’s say we are contributing £200billion. If we are investing that sum, am not an economist expect in the UK and trade, transport, schools, colleges, universities, housing, and NHS trust yearly. Another area is our leaders will be more effective, accountable and responsibile. We waste Billions yearly on unstable and unrealistic policy, like Forigen Aid, war, fines .Tax evasion by weak European laws. We needs economic immigrants not non economic immigrants who are liabilities on the tax payers and systems. We need power to control our borders. Question to ask does campaign for remain, is why hasn’t European union be able to developed countries like Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Moldova, Serbia, Cezh Republic etc. Why is it that every one wants to come to UK? What is the European union doing about security? Why are there still economic division between east European countries and West European countries, with all the money received and contributed? Why is terrorism on the raise in Europe?Ukraine crisis did the European union handle it properly? Are we Britain save in the European union with high raise of terrorism and Radicalism? What cost are we paying to start in the European union, is it profitable or too are disadvantaged? We should look at the options, we British are not been racists or sentiment. The future of unborn generations lies, universities the choice we make today.
Your maths is wrong – we will be poorer.
For more information whether starting in European union is profitable. People should browse the following and do careful consideration and calculations. How much is it costing UK to start in the European union? Secondly how much has uk payed European union since 1973. .?
We will be poorer
Sheffield show us YOUR math then!
Do you think you think that you live in a democracy?
The definition of a democracy is:-
“a system of government in which all the people of a state or polity … are involved in making decisions about its affairs, typically by voting to elect representatives to a parliament or similar assembly”
SO, NO YOU DON’T!
Let’s stop looking at facts born out of supposition and opinions, and at worst those who have vested interest.
O.K. the first statement is only a projection.
The number of people living in Britain is projected to rise from 64.6 million in mid-2014 to 74.3 million in 2039, that’s roughly 500,000 a year.
NOW THE FACTS.
The current scale of migration to the UK, 330,000 a year, of which roughly half is from the EU, is completely unsustainable.
As a result of this mass immigration our population is projected to rise by half a million every year – the equivalent of a city the size of Liverpool – for as long as immigration is permitted on the present scale.
England is already twice as crowded as Germany and 3.5 times as crowded as France.
The additional population growth makes congestion worse and adds to the pressures on public services. This comes at a time when public spending is being reduced.
One in four children born in England and Wales is to a foreign born mother. The rise in the number of births has put pressure on NHS maternity services.
It has also led to a shortage of school places. 60% of local authorities will have a shortage of primary school places by 2018.
The UK has a serious housing crisis. Mass immigration is the main reason for the additional demand. We must build a new home every six minutes for the next 20 years to accommodate the additional demand for housing from new migrants.
It’s impossible to “build our way out” of this situation.
Whatever the arguments for staying the E.U. only ONE thing is CERTAIN, it’s the WRONG choice.
British Government largest fears hasn’t started, let Turkey join the European union then you will no the difference between over population and overcrowding. Our National sovereignty is under threat, our borders are loosely open to all manners of people, both llegal and illegal people. The circumstances on ground is not sentiment or being self centre. It’s realities of principles, can the United Kingdom handle up to 300,0000 Migrants yearly for the next 5 years that 1,500,000 people, if the European union orders us to take in as our share of refugees. That’s from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc The Humanitarian crisis looming over Europe, is not a child play. We need to consider before we sell our destiny and birthright to the European union. Britain already have problems and challenges which it’s getting difficult to find solutions. NHS trust is overwhelming, London transport and housing crisis is there, overcrowded school in United Kingdom, High taxes. Absolutely heart breaking when Londoners and young people can’t get on the property ladder. Now some groups of people wants us too continue to waste Billions of taxpayers money in starting in unprofitable marriage. India is closed to the middle east, why can’t they take in refugees, I am even going far, Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Pakistan India Why can’t they people go their?It’s true because of benefits people come to UK.
Given David Cameron’s latest hyperbolic outburst, the need to leave become clearer still. The British “remain” politicians will use every scare tactic that they can muster. Two years ago Cameron said he could be prepared to campaign to leave EU if his negotiations did not go well (they didn’t). Now he is saying leaving the EU is unthinkable on peace and security grounds. One way or the other he is a hypocrite.
What are we to be threatened with next to scare us to stay in the EU?
Alien invasion? Zombies?
Vote remain or your arms will drop off..?
Two years ago Cameron said he could be prepared to campaign to leave EU if his negotiations did not go well (they didn’t).
They did. Once again the UK came out with a series of totally unwarranted and unfair exceptions and special status clauses to their advantage, rather than being told to, well, get stuffed, only with an F, and to just effing go. Which hopefully the UK will do anyway.
“Vote remain or your arms will drop off..?”
Haha, ironic, the whole bunch of exitiots is basically claiming that the UK already lost and arm and a leg and an eye, ‘sovereignty’ and what have you.
Did the E.U.’s peace and security protect Brussels and Paris? It’s NATO that protects us, it’s a pity they can’t protect us from Cameron, if ever a man suffered from constipation it’s him, he’s just full of it!
“It’s NATO that protects us”
Well it didn’t protect Brussels and Paris either, did it. Nor London, for that matter.
Well it would create more jobs in the EU. Just think every country would have to re-introduce Visa’s , Work Permits, Residence permits. Then there would be all the paperwork over re-repatriating Brits in the EU, then the removal of all EU workers from the UK. Advertising their jobs and (most probably) having to re-hire them as locals weren’t available in the first place
IT’S VERY SIMPLE – The UK pays more in than it gets out, our hands are tied in trading, human rights, justice, education, manufacturing, agriculture etc., Take away the ties and we will fly – of course there will be initial wobbles, even an eaglet has to learn to fly when it leaves the nest, but have you ever watched an eagle soar? This country can do that – once the fetters of the EU are removed, be sensible VOTE OUT!
Firstly, the UK does not pay more in that it gets out. The benefits that we reap from being a member of the EU are unparalleled to any organisation in the world and we pay a pittance of what we gain. There is no reason to leave the largest, most prosperous, most closely tied and most economically healthy bloc of nations on earth. Be sensible? stop being so naïve. Leaving the EU will have drastic short run and long run effects on the economy, security and overall wellbeing of our country.
@ Will. “No reason to leave”?
You can’t have been looking very hard.
Democratic deficit, the quotations from many European leaders espousing views and aims not favourable to the UK, the too-rapid expansion which amongst other things has diluted any chance of the UK having influence or getting necessary reforms in place.
(Not surprisingly the new smaller poorer countries have a rather different agenda.)
The financial instability of the Euro zone: Greece is still very much an issue in play, and it isn’t being handled to the benefit of Greece. The increasingly mis-matched economies could quite possibly break the eurozone, and if so this will cost everyone in the EU, not just those in the Eurozone.
“No reason”? Hardly.
When there is too many restrictions and hindrances in form of laws on trade, business development, migrants control, a country is limited to expand its trade opportunities in the world. UK is beneficial in contributing to the European union and Westminster are receiving some peanuts from the EU . We are saying that we don’t have the necessary skills and work force to run our industrial plants, we are being have out by people coming from the European union. I totally disagree because being in the European union, is making our government to be distracted by the European union problems with out finding sound solutions to the crisis facing the British people.The welfare state need reformation and overall possession of our freedom . European can’t be dictating to ours how to live as a nation. We need to leave and seek better pasture from the outside world. I know that it’s not going to be easier, but the freedom of the British people matters much
My comment doesn’t show but suffice to say I concur with Viktor Toks and Chris Brown
Point of correction, European union is unpopular and can’t give the impression of getting the best negotiations for the British people. The British government and politicians with European union apologises should getting tell the British people lies whether we leave now or not one thing, I have 100 %assurance is we are going to leave the EU, not only UK but other countries. The terrorists attacks across Europe has proved that European union is not capable of security measures to protect and safe people who are EU citizens. Does people who died how are there Families going to bear the loss? The Ukraine crisis did the European union handle the crisis in a sensible way where by an Dutch Airlines flying over Eastern Ukraine was shot down more than 150 people died, but children and adults. The TERRORISTS ATTACKS ACROSS EUROPE in Paris, Belgium Airport, etc Britain can not handle the thousands of people coming from the European union. Do we have the facilities.?I am not saying we should leave totally but we can follow Norway, Sweden and Denmark being in Free European zone, where by the European union will have limited powers on British trade, immigration, security, business. An agreement where by we can choose whoever we want totrade with ,whereby British laws will be effective in areas of best interest to the British people. We need a new Britain where our Sovereignty is protected and tarnish, we by how to live, benefits of the people of British people is well protected. We by our young woman and daughter’s will not be molested, rape and a new Britain we will not because strangers in our Fatherland. We want a Britain we by our culture, history, value are reserved and not underrated. That’s the Britain we need! !,!! Long Live Queen
Hyer Victor i agree
Will – Niave? You sound like you swallowed the whole of the IN brigades propaganda, do some REAL Research when you have looked at both sides of the argument from the point of view of other European citizens, you may begin to understand that Europe is nothing without Britain, without us they will fall apart sooner rather than later – if we stay, and sure as hell others leave, the EU will implode and it will cost the UK billions! We cannot go on dividing the wealth of this country to support the poorer nations, we cannot allow Merkel and the European Central Bank to control our wealth and make us less powerful than we are. Everything we know has been eroded by the EU Bureaucrats who are not answerable to us, they were not elected by us, they do not have to listen to us because we can’t remove them. This is not Democracy and this is not what we voted for when we joined the then Common Market, everything else has been thrust upon us, and if we stay, it can only get worse. The problem is that you have educated by Dodgy Dave just enough to believe everything he says, but not enough to ask questions about his real agenda! Go away and come back when you have reached that level of education.
Lisa, I listened to/watched the Parliamentary debate on David Cameron’s taxpayer-funded one-sided leaflet. There wasn’t much defence of it and a lot of demolition of it,.for three hours.
I’ve just been sent the links:
Watch the debate: http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/93a979e7-4c8a-4d3f-89b1-529df4b4cad4
Read the transcript: https://hansard.digiminster.com/commons/2016-05-09/debates/1605098000001/EUReferendumLeaflet
The petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762
Plenty of stuff there to publicise, spread around, but for some reason the BBC appears to have avoided mentioning it.
Try and spell properly first of all. I have not swallowed any propaganda, I have written substantial dissertations on this topic and have spent over half of my life living in EU countries other than the UK broadening my horizons and seeing first hand the benefits of being in the EU. Leaving will result as a trigger and more may leave, the unionism which we have is too valuable for us just to jump ship. The EU has its problems but we’re not solving anything by leaving. Just look at those who want us to leave – Vladmir Putin being a strong supporter of Brexit would love to see the EU begin the crumble. Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen. Concerning other European citizens, not one EU member state wants us to leave. You think you’re doing whats best, you need to look a bit harder.
@ Will. Your argument undermines itself.
” Leaving will result as a trigger and more may leave, ”
Yes. It is already known that at the least substantial minorities of several countries would like the option to leave. You do believe in democracy, don’t you, or are you one with those EU bureaucrats who believe that the public can be ignored and dragged along for their own good? That attitude is a solid reason to want out on its own.
” the EU will implode and it will cost the UK billions!” It will cost the UK a darn site less if we are out before it happens, which seems a fair possibility whether we leave or no,,,: if we are talking “risk” and “unknown”, argue both sides.
“The EU has its problems” Write that ten times over, in spades. And one of its key problems is a resistance to reform!
“not one EU member state wants us to leave” Well that doesn’t logically point to nothing but it being in our interest to stay., does it. What’s in their interest need not at all be in in ours.
Looking hard at the EU?
There’s the mask and there’s what’s behind it.
The different spins (and the mistreatment of the Irish population) over the Lisbon treaty was more than enough to alert me to watch for “smoke and mirrors” fro pro EU politicians.
Some have admitted that they know that being open and honest is too dangerous, given the aims and condition of the EU.
“When it becomes serious, you have to lie.”
― Jean-Claude Juncker
“I am for joining a free trade zone. The European Union is not such zone, but a zone of raging bureaucracy”
― Janusz Korwin-Mikke
Professor Giacomo Vaciago of Milan’s Catholic University: “It’s clear that the euro has virtually failed over the last ten years, even if you are not supposed to say that.”
The financial circumstances in European countries like Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Moldova, Serbia, Cezh Republic etc Proves that the European union only is a proverbs in the mouth of dreams. Greece was bail out more than 3 times. Standard of living is low and cost of living is high? European union needs reformation and reorganisation, only when Britain leave
So, I made a spelling mistake ? am I bad? spelling has nothing to do with intelligence LOL
I’m afraid I don’t have any interest in how many dissertations you have written, I also have lived in various parts of Europe, including Norway. I have also lived in all but one of the major continents where the UK is held in high esteem, the whole scare campaign to get UK citizens to vote to stay is beyond belief. I repeat, propaganda to remain in the UK is rife, if you want to swallow it whole, be my guest.
We tried to get reform from within, we failed, open your eyes can you not see what bringing Turkey, Albania and etc., will do to our already strained resources?
Why do the other member states not want us to leave? Because they KNOW we are better off out and they are better off if we stay in – simple.
I support Lisa view, she is right. Firstly the worst crisis we are facing as a Country is illegal immigrants coming to UK. Secondly the other problems we are dealing with by staying in European union is massive waves of people coming from Europe, where illegal people mix with them and claim asylum making it very difficult to remove them. From my research we have between 350,000 to830,000 illegal people in United Kingdom. When people who are not suppose to be in a country where by give birth to children, the number of people increase, problem increase public transport, NHS trust, housing, overcrowded school for local people total overstretched Government expenses. If you are a Prime Minister, will you open your eyes to open your borders to everyone in the name of being praise by does business corporation ,business leaders, charities who are beneficial of employment of cheap labour. Or charities who are receiving donations from the crisis. When you have roughly 600,000 illegal people plus fake asylum seekers who is the burden on is it not taxpayers me and you. British people should look deeply, I am not saying we should leave totally from the European union only to leave and join the European Economic Area, like Norway, Iceland, Russia, San Marino, Switzerland etc United Kingdom can not forever be a Charitable organisation to other nations, at the expense of the freedom of the British people. We have to leave the EU to control our borders, relive our public transport and housing, NHS trust and educational system. We can’t not continue to be in total ignorance of the fact that European union is unpopular and can’t help us improve our life and grow our economy.
I appreciate all the ‘mundane’ arguments but consider the bigger picture.
I am going to ask you to invest in a business called the ‘EU’ .
Here are the conditions:
The management are generally considered undemocratic (indeed, sometimes they have been electorally sacked and jump on the ‘gravy train’) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union
The finances have not been signed off as true and correct for nearly 17yrs and only signed lately with disregard to the issues. (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110202/debtext/110202-0004.htm)
The fact that middle management (an ex UK P.M.?) can fire whistleblowers who point out the vulnerability of their accounts. ( She advised that money was haemorrhaging inappropriately) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marta_Andreasen
No one seems to have any idea of the legal position.
One director can, for the sake of vanity, demand that once a month a week of meetings have to be held in their country at the cost of millions. ( the Strasbourg circus) See section ‘European Parliament’ at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_seats_of_the_European_Union#Oneseat_campaign
The ‘EU’ company demands that to trade with them you need to pay them to sell your products on their shelves. (When supermarkets did that it was considered corrupt practice)
Would you invest?
VictorToks – exactly.
Chris Brown thank you for the links. The BBC seems to be very selective in what it broadcasts, I also note correspondents and interviewers adding statements immediately after any broadcast which suggests leaving is in our best interest, obviously trying to negate what has been said. Pretty disgusted that the government have spent our taxes on a stay campaign and the BBC’s neutral position has shifted and become a David Cameron support group.
They are supporting him so that he will not retract their licence Lisa it is blackmail, just the sort of thing ca moron does.
Lisa you are on track. Spelling is not the issues you are making a decision, a point which all the people of this Greater Kingdom of the UK appreciate a lot. Apart from the UK who is contributing the lion share of the European union budget How much is Greece, Bulgaria, Italy, Spain and Portugal contributing to the European union. Why are the Euro septic politicians fighting nail and tooth, with fear tratic against British people leaving the union? Why are Western countries interested in the UK? The sensitivity of the matter is that the impression that we are currently being given is surface information. Illegal immigrants coming to UK are coming through which route Greece, Italy France.,Malta etc Human trafficking is through where the mixture of asylum seekers, European people from Romania Bulgaria and eastern door way. People coming from Africa cross the Mediterranean Sea into Europe .
Victor – I couldn’t have said it better :)
Bob K do you think you could get a spot on the BBC News? Perfect analogy.. so many people just don’t see it, even if they have the information they get brainwashed by the scaremongering. I’m scared myself.. of what will happen if we stay.. if the vote goes the wrong way or is rigged.
Definitely going to be rigged Lisa read this..http://youtu.be/MZRYVE4naHc
My major concern is for the British people to get the best for us. British people deserve the best negotiations with the outside world,including the European union.Our children,single parents,disabled people,families to live in a conducsive environment.European union has serivce it’s usefulness for the British people.It’s time for a new regime ,new way ,better future in control of our business,schools,econom,cities,which is impossible inthe club of Europe.
Of course the E.U. don’t want us to leave, they know only too well, that the majority of immigrants currently in Europe and those that follow will come to Britain if they can, we’re just Europe’s dumping ground.
@ Alison Davidson – how corrupt is a country that rigs votes, it’s there for all to see – and yet nothing is done! The fact that “call me Dave” is heading a conference on anti-corruption is farcical, but also somewhat scary – we need vigilance with the referendum, we need the Leave Campaign to put spies at every polling station, and at the count – we should lobby people like Gove, Doris, and IDS to do just that.. my campaign starts today.
What I have to say may sound strange but it’s not new. I went to college in Nigeria. I also spend many years in Nigeria, before coming back to UK. Rigging is not new the former political parties, in power before President Burhai stay in power for good 16 years before God intervail. The people of Nigeria where feed up and frustrated and demand a change.The second reason that the former President set down because it could see the warth of the people. What I am trying to said in whole is that, I don’t trust politicians, government officials, parties leaders, ministers etc In every part of the world from experience does in power don’t want to give people chance to decide what’s good for the future, they have been imposing their will on the people of the United Kingdom for years. Whether Labour or conservative or SNP etc We the good people of the UK should together stand up in one accord not violently or by roits by in a reasonable way and Say No to European union and Westminster! !!
The major tools the European union and Westminster government is using is fear tratic against British people will, Media houses like BBC etc. The other is Propaganda to censor the opposition, Propaganda has been the essential part of government control and abuse of Human rights. Corruptions and money is also being used £9.3 millions of taxpayers money is being wasted, taxpayers money is being used to lobby all of us to vote to stay in the European union When some families are going to food banks before their can feed their families. Thousands of British people are homeless, jobless,and in debts. Ask the politicians why is it do or die to start in the European union? The other weapon is intimatidation of people who voice out by the Sercet police, people my say it’s not happening in Britain we are not in North Korea or China .But look how the Scottish Refefurudum was rigged by the so called British security P .Big business are giving big donations to the European stay Campaign. Hmmmmmmm, I Smell corruption in the air. It’s we the British people, who are rights are been cleverly suppress, we are cleverly been exploited, side track, some are been brainwashed. If what am saying is false, then why are the Government Wasting £9. 3 million of taxpayers money on unprofitable European campaign? We are wait for an answer, freedom for the Great people of the United Kingdom! !,! Freedom for the hardworking single parents, Freedom for the British homeless who the people claiming asylum are being given houses by the Council, where by British citizens are denial houses. Freedom for the disabled people who their benefits are being cut off and are forced to work. Freedom for the British young girls who are being sexualy abused by illegal migrants! !!
Freedom for the NHS! !,,
Vote Leave! !!
You’re absolutely right Victor – and our esteemed leader is hosting a conference on anti-corruption citing Nigeria and Afghanistan as some of the worst – personally I think he is unfit to be PM let alone accuse others of what he is doing in our own country! Let him who is without sin….. I will be voting leave as will many of my friends – but if the count is rigged we are without hope. We must all pray for justice in this referendum, but we have to do our bit as well by voting LEAVE!
Well I am a Christian. I believe in prayer and the power of the Most High God. Since everyone has freedom of speech and expression. I going to go on my knees and pray for the coming Refefurudum ,that the God who is above every power, principalities, government, cabal to let his own will be done in this matter. Some people my say this is werid, it may sound strange. But when a cabal of people who think power is a right and birthright for a particular group of people. There’s a problem, how can a group of people hold us to ransom in this 21ST CENTURY. We are talking about the future of the British people being mortgage in the name of Staying in the European union. The British prime minister David Cameron, made a rude comment about Nigeria and Afghanistan been fantastically corrupt, Is that not unacceptable to the people of Nigeria and Afghanistan? People tell is British politicians and government Sanits or Holy Holy? From research 70% of the stolen public funds from Africa and middle East is it not laundering to Europe especially Nigerian politicians saved it British Banks to buy choices of properties in London. This is the major reason to leave the EU because it makes our leaders untouchable, dictators, abusers of Human rights. There’s are two Nigerian politicians in British Jails who steal Billions of dollars. The good people of Our Great Britain should tell David Cameron to set down! !! BRITISH PEOPLE should tell David Cameron that we don’t have confidence in him to deliver the principles of democracy for us anymore, anyway his Late Father had an Offshore Account, making him corrupt like the Nigerian and Afghanistan governments officers he is tarnishing their image. He who doesn’t have Sin throw the 1st stone. 90% of the dictators stolen his used to buy properties in Choicest areas of London according to the Evening Standard paper of last few weeks. David Cameron you need to stand down please! !,
Hitler always wanted to get his hands on England, we stopped him then, so we can do it again. Seem to remember we did quite well on our own.
Well said Jacqueline !
Some other areas that the British people deserve to know,is how the so called politicians and government agencies,departments in London are spending our tax pounds.Billions of taxpayers money is wasted on defence,Foreign Aid,European contributions,unprofitable policies because our leaders and politicians are using the European union to screw us and milk us dry.Questions,that I would like the Great British people ask our Honorary Prime minister and cabinet ministers is How the are spending our tax pounds.Can our leaders justify explain the reason we have to contribute £55million pounds,every day when British people are homeless,families are struggling to eat.Can the British government tell us
We have been Great Britain long before the EU came about and we should lead the world in our indepence by leaving it and protect our sovereign rights.
Why should we send £350million to an organisation that is driven by Germany and has no ability to resolve serious issues like immigration and terrorism as those same organisations will still be involved in these topics and will still be in dialog with us because we lead the world in many things.
To say that jobs and our standard of living will be affected is a political stance because the truth is we would be £350 million pounds better off each week of which this money could be put to Great Britain’s issues,
Why have we let 2 million people come to or shores and take jobs that could be taken by ourselves and its a disgrace that we’d rather employ immigrants rather than our own.
Remember Charity begins at home
Mike, I’ll be voting the same wasy as you but not for the same reasons.
Remember the great in Great Britain has nothing to do with our status or quality.or that we used to have an empire.
It’s there by historical and geographical accident as, for ships coming round from the western end of the Mediterranean, we were the larger of two bits of land sticking out into the Atlantic. The other Britain is now known as Brittany.
Britain is great: in size, compared to Brittany.
David Cameron and his political supporter’s should please give us a breath a space. Is this David Cameron and Westminster Refefurudum or British people Refefurudum? Why is David Cameron going forward and backward in this matter ?Something is missing, which the Prime minister is not telling us. Why projecting fear and uncertainty into the mind of the British people? We are people who should have a voice and say in matters which determines are future, the future of unborn generations. BRITISH citizens are pushed out of their homes, NHS trust is overwhelming ,majority of people are in deep debts. The only things the Leave campaign is trying to do is to pollute the mind of the people. Is by giving away £55 M every day m £350million every week is beneficial or investing that into skills development of our jobless young people. Is by funding the European union is more important than finding solutions to our housing crisis, immigration crisis. Gap between the rich and poor is a challenge to
David Cameron and his political supporter’s should please give us a breath a space. Is this David Cameron and Westminster Refefurudum or British people Refefurudum? Why is David Cameron going forward and backward in this matter ?Something is missing, which the Prime minister is not telling us. Why projecting fear and uncertainty into the mind of the British people? We are people who should have a voice and say in matters which determines are future, the future of unborn generations. BRITISH citizens are pushed out of their homes, NHS trust is overwhelming ,majority of people are in deep debts. The only things the Leave campaign is trying to do is to pollute the mind of the people. Is by giving away £55 M every day m £350million every week is beneficial or investing that into skills development of our jobless young people. Is by funding the European union is more important than finding solutions to our housing crisis, immigration crisis. Gap between the rich and poor is a challenge to this nation. Why is it a group of people who sit in Westminster are deciding who can vote and who can’t? Is it not the issues concerning the British people we are currently talking about? British people should raise up and not let them hijacked our future as they hijacked the Scottish Refefurudum by using fear and uncertainty news with bullying. We are the people who elected them, so they should, let the British people have a said in this matter. We are the taxpayers who they are wasting our money. We want our country back! !!
More than 1millon foreign are in the country. Soon some people will be shouting Racism, discrimination sentiment and we are contributing into the British system. We are not Racists but we cannot guarantee on taking more thousands of people at the expense of the freedom of the British people. Even if we don’t get our freedom ,from Germany and France now. The European union only is a time bomb,cracks are seen by people around the world. It is just a matter of time. David Cameron is not omega and Apha, he will soon leave Westminster and British people will vote a government, who love it own people.
But one thing I know is United Kingdom is leaving the European union
Once again, we are being warned of “Weapons of mass destruction ” that we will be
bombarded with if we dare to leave the E U. As far as I can see the weapons are coming
out of the politicians mouths. if we bring all our armed forces back home, we will be well
Britain has always stood strong in the world for centuries before the EU came along and the true British people will stand strong again and show the politic’s that they got it wrong as Britain is great without the corruption and flagrant inability to solve EU Problems we should leave it to em!!, and be Great Britain once again
All governments are corrupt and our is just the same, they even manufacture statistics to suit their claims that we are better off in Europe. Recently they told us that EU Migrants do not have a negative effect of our economy and that they pay more in taxes than they get back – ok well, here’s an independent non political magazine telling the truth – Quote from South East Farmer Magazine: The main four supermarkets, Asda, Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons claim to guarantee the farming community a fair return for their produce; and yet, between them they employed 519,000 low paid migrant workers who were so poorly paid that they claimed £936 million pounds in Tax Credits and Housing Benefits! How is that helping Britain?
Brilliant comments Lisa and your so right why do the Cameron’s of this world not speak the truth and give an honest opinion and not the fear factor that is so apparent and so entirely false
Another week of propaganda from the “Stay In Campaign”
“If we leave this could happen or this might happen”
Cameron will muster anyone from anywhere to support his drivel. The thing that annoys me most about Cameron (and I WAS a Conservative supporter) is his inability to grasp the fact that the British people are not all fools, and can’t see through his rantings. If Cameron loves Europe so much, he should do us all a favour and go and live there.
For all those who think that staying in the E.U. is the best option, I would point you to the old saying “be careful for what you wish for” This is our biggest decision for centuries, DO YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY BACK OR DON’T YOU???
Great comments Bjays,
I agree he should ha ha …
But according to the 2 c’s (Cameron and corbyn) world war 3 will happen if we leave, how shallow are these folks we’ve stood strong for centuries without the EU and we will again
been doing my own little survey on stay or leave amongst people I know or meet. asked about 30 so far, different walks of life, different financial wellbeing, backgrounds and different political views. some are self made, millionaires, hairdressers, gardeners, long haul transport, chemist, retired, housewives, electrician and others. out of the people i have surveyed ONLY 3 wish to remain. a teacher, a retired farmer and a retired printer. looks encouraging,
Great comments Sue,
Why is that the Cameron’s on this world forget to mention that the true cost of migration is not the tax they pay but the tax credits and housing benefits they claim
Something is fishy.Some certain group of people are benefiting from the Staying in the European union.Politicians who are siphoning on millions of taxpayers money ,though rigging statistics figure to cover ,up the ways that they have been robing,milking the British people under the umbrella of so called European union. Our big business like H&M, Lidi,Sainsbury,Tesco,Agriculture chains,London high shops Primark,etc They enjoy employing cheaper labour from Europe,Asylum seekers at the expense of British people being laid off
Your absolutly right Victor, only those with a vested interest would urge us to stay in the E.U., they’re only looking out for themselves, if they’re not fiddling their expenses they will find other ways to keep their noses in the trough. Most of the Government know only too well it will take a lot of work to sort out the mess that we are in if we leave, and frankly I don’t think they capable of doing it but, if they can’t, we’ll find others who can.
My “Leave” poster is up in my window. No-one’s chucked a brick at it yet.
So is mine! And so far those who have mentioned it are of the same mind.
I’d like a leave poster, where did you get it?
Every one I’ve spoken to about the E.U. referendum are voting “LEAVE” bar one who works in a London bank, enough said! Cameron knows he has a fight on his hands, that’s why he is using fear tactics. Well I’ve got news for you Cameron, look in your history book, THE BRITISH PEOPLE DON’T SCARE EASILY.
Why should British families have to turn to food banks,when are contributing £350million weekly to the European union?Why should the disabled benefits been cut when are resources are being splash on Foreign Aid?
Why should British people be laid off and big UK companies are employing thousands of cheap illegal immigrants from the European union?
People with disabilities are being let down.Is it their faults for being born disabled.
We are British people be thrown out of council house’s and asylum seekers be housed.
Why are people being priced out of London?
Why are people homeless,families and asylum seekers be housed at the expense of British people?
Why are people from Europe been able to collect benefits,taxes return,employment benefits and the British people in need of help being let down?
Why are are schools overcrowded ?Is staying in the European union the best option?
Why are people struggling to eat and live when,we try in the United kingdom
Because Victor, the British fight for nothing, and the Europeans fight for everything,
and we sit back and let them take everything.
Victor these problems are all over.
Even here in this poor country.
It’s called gentrification, mate. Capitalism did this, not the EU.
you’re fighting the wrong enemy here :(