On 23 June 2016, the UK will hold a referendum on membership of the European Union. The starting pistol has been fired (though, in truth, both teams have been jogging along for some time already).
Over the course of the referendum campaign, Debating Europe will be launching a series of debates with politicians and experts from across the United Kingdom. We will be putting your questions and comments to them on “Brexit”, and publishing the responses online. If you want to take part in the debate, then fill out the form below with your comment!
Supporters of British membership of the EU argue that the economic costs of leaving could be high. In response to fears of Brexit, the pound recently suffered its biggest one-day loss since 2009, and a group of major business leaders have signed a letter arguing that jobs could be lost and the economy put at risk.
Campaigners to leave point out that two-thirds of FTSE 100 firms did not sign the letter, and that stock markets have been relatively unmoved so far.
Have you already made your mind up which way to vote? Do YOU think Britain should leave the European Union? Let us know what you think in the poll below:
The economy and trade will be among the top issues during the referendum campaign. We had a comment sent in from Julia, who believes that leaving the EU would be enormously beneficial to the UK’s trade, both with Europe and the rest of the world. She believes that a Britain outside the EU would be able to negotiate free trade agreements with other countries, such as those in the Commonwealth.
To get a reaction, we put Julia’s comment to John Redwood, Conservative MP for Wokingham. How did he think “Brexit” would affect the UK’s trade relations?
Leaving the European Union would probably help the UK’s trade with the EU, and it would certainly help the UK’s trade with the rest of the world. One of the problems of our membership of the European Union, Julia, is that we’ve been a member for 43 years and the Union has still not managed to negotiate a free trade agreement for us with China, India, the United States of America, or Brazil, all very important markets that we wish to deal more with. And nor will they let the United Kingdom negotiate our own free trade agreement, whereas we think we would be able to do that quite quickly and to our benefit.
As for trade with the rest of the EU, we don’t see any reason why it should be damaged. I have spoken to senior representatives of the German government and they have rightly made it clear to me that if the United Kingdom leaves they wouldn’t wish to see new tariffs or barriers imposed on their trade with us, and that’s not surprising because Germany sells us twice as much as we sell Germany. Indeed, we have a trade deficit with the whole of the rest of the European Union. Outside the EU, I would be very happy for us to continue to allow in all the current imports we take from the rest of the EU with no additional barriers, and in return I’m quite sure that the rest of the European Union would want to continue to accept United Kingdom exports…
For another perspective, we also spoke to Anthony Zacharzewski, Director of the Democratic Society (speaking here in a personal capacity). What would he say to Julia?
I think the hardest question to answer is what is going to happen to trade and the economic relations between the UK and the rest of the EU. The simple reason is that nobody knows exactly what the arrangement that would come afterwards would look like. If you look at the treaties, you have two years, and maybe more, to negotiate a new trading relationship with Europe after you leave. But the problem with that is that it’s difficult to predict what it could look like.
There’s something called the European Economic Area (EEA). We might be part of that, and in that case we’d still be in the Single Market, but we’d probably still have free movement and all of the other arrangements that look quite similar to what we have today. If you wanted to get farther away from Europe and maybe put up barriers to immigration and things like that, you’d need to negotiate a special deal. And no-one knows what it could look like. But it seems unlikely that any of the European countries that we’d be turning our backs on would want to give us a really sweet free trade deal without having free movement and other parts of the European Union rules as well.
Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU? How would Brexit affect the British economy? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
984 comments Post a commentcomment
If London wants to be the financial centre maybe yes
@Amalia Zafeiratou
The VAST majority of the FTSE 100 are not based in the continental EU.
Furthermore, companies locate to London to hedge their currencies against the Euro or the $ etc etc
Being in the EU is NOT such a major factor for London in the non-Euro UK.
We should get out now and f**king leg it and think how looky we are to leave the EU shafted
If UK wants to leave….then it should be free to do so. If the allegedly tolerant EU would try to rig up the referendum voting it means just one thing….that EUMS have become prisoners of an Evil Union
Leave
Our only hope is Britain in such undemocratic times when our continent is inundated by antisocial, undocumented migrants. Go Britain and give a huge slap to the Merkel-JUNKer pair!
a speach about democracy from Europes last dictator who literally built a stadium in his private property.
French citizens where right when they voted NO to EU with a 60% majority. Politicians which denied this fact and engaged France in this tax escape vampirization system are traitors and will be condemned in a very near futur.
This entire conservative debate is so stupid, noone really needs this discussion at the moment. The EU struggles with wars in the East and South of it’s borders, and Britain has nothing better to do than forcing the EU to debate social benefits for migrants in the common market area. This behaviour of the British elite is, pardon this judgement, miscalculated, irrational and highly confrontational towards Britains neighboring countries and societies. For outside observers it is now questionable if the otherwise realistic Brits are really able to think seriously abouth whether it is wise to behave like the bull in the china shop. This entire debate to me indicates that a substantial part of the British society has still not understood what the European project is about.
@Peter Ahlfeld
The EU forced the debate to be about social benefits – the UK initially wanted it to be about controlling EU immigration.
Worse still, beggar nations like the Czech republic wanted to hold up the sham agreement based on the effect proposed social payment changes would have on 500 Czech families!
UNBELIEVABLE!
Yes it has a lot of impact on our lives in the UK. We pay the EU about 55mllion pounds a day imagine what can be done with such amounts of money! : (
The “Visigreed 4” eastern european nations through their petty demands and sheer greed may well have doomed the eu – and perhaps with “partners” like those collapse will be a necessary evil.
These are the countries that only take – what contribution do they make to the common good?
” This entire debate to me indicates that a substantial part of the British society has still not understood what the European project is about.”
That, or we have! “Ever closer union” was a term that only appeared after “British society” was last given a say on the matter in 1975.
The “yes” vote was for the EEC. the Common Market. A free trade area.
In retrospect I can see that as massive miss-selling.
“The behaviour of the British elite” Well it’s a plebiscite, not something decided by our aristocracy, unless you mean we all consider ourselves better than any European citizen. Not these days.
As for timing, the British population have wanted this for years…
” whether it is wise to behave like the bull in the china shop”
Just lie down and submit, then?
Just believe that whatever is done to us and for us is good for us.
Of course, Big Brother.
I like Europe. The EU, however… another story.
Social Union? NO NO NO!
Free Economic Trade? YES YES YES!
Once the EU is gone, trade will never be “free”. You Brits just don’t get it.
You won’t suck out resources via trade but force the poor people out.
This is what Britain is. We’d (the EU) have to get rid of Britain to fulfill the EU unity.
Wow Peter. I am not sure making such wild assumptions about British people is wise. There are some British people taking this decision very seriously.
Would love to h3ar what you believe the European project is about?
I think you’ll all find that the European project was NOT what the UK signed up for. And it’s certainly NOT something I would support. We joined an organisation set up to accommodate easy trade (a great idea, no doubt about that) and ended up with yet another bunch of politicians running our daily affairs and telling us how we can and can’t live (a terrible idea, politicians are a very expensive waste of oxygen with no real concept of the struggles of the people they are supposed to represent most of the time). I really don’t see why people who don’t earn as much as other people, maybe left education at an earlier age (most likely to help contribute financially to the family they belong to who struggle to get by rather than struggle for another 5 years) are automatically considered by the higher earners to be second rate citizenry unable to think for themselves. And what’s more, is when we actually got asked the question of if we wanted to be on board with an ever evolving EU (and sadly by evolving i don’t mean becoming more sophisticated) until we would end up who knows where. It’s like playing a sport where the rules changed from football to rugby while the game was still being played and it still hadn’t finished. What will it look like after another 40 years? Tennis maybe? Who in their right mind could be ok with that degree of no control over their own destiny, the future of their children’s society? You say we don’t understand what the European project is, maybe that’s because it hasn’t finished deciding yet, and since we seem to only get asked how we feel about any of these decisions every 40 years or so we chose not to adopt a wait and see attitude about it. If that makes me stupid or inferior intellectually in your opinions then guess what my opinion of you is.
Leave now Completely… The Britons kept their Currency, the Sterling Pound, which was, is & will be proven, Their Greatest Decision ever!!!
It just takes the hammering now, and it is only starting.
What a good political strategy.. While the pakistani try to force the eu borders…. The pakistani from the GB government try to keep people attention in north… Ahahah pathetic
Pakistan never wanted to join Arab League .
lol
Leave Immediately and remain a free nation of Europe, not a slave of Germany!
@Giovanni Pasquini
Well said!
can UK stay and Germany leave the union? the only time that Europe prospered was with a divided Germany and Berlin….
Leave
I have wrote this before Britain has more going for it the any Europe country,just look how many Europe countries who will back Britain,I have a list which has been sent to me,know wonder the eu is worried when they look at the list in Brussels eight. Eu countries want to leave another two who never joined Europe and ready to trade with Britain,and they only now. Give France twelve months before they leave.germany .spain.portugal also know this
Οnly with full membership may stay in E.U. and not any exemption.
“Οnly with full membership may stay in E.U. and not any exemption.”
I agree in so far as a semi-detached and “bothersome” UK is not likely to be well-received or treated after a “remain” vote. Why should it expect to be?
One more reason to vote “leave.”
True. In is in, out is out. The enemy must not be given rights in the EU.
We cannot accept an EU with 2, 3 or more “speed”. All countries need to respect treaties and decisions and help to build a supranational country…
@Fabrice Soulié
For the EU to prosper, the influence of France MUST be reduced.
Fabrice Soulié “All countries need to respect treaties and decisions and help to build a supranational country…”
Agreed. Or leave. Given the need for reform in the EU and its lack of willingness to undertake it, I make that a “leave” proposition
@Fabrice Soulie
There is already a EU with minimum of 2 speed economy.
Nothern EU and Southern EU.
A supranational country? You can`t put the different European countries in one EU box.
Working together as during the EC YES! Never as in the current EU.
Who wants a supranational country? I don’t. The beauty of Europe is in its diversity of nations, cultures, traditions, languages and peoples. A mixed pot is just a soggy stew.
Yes, well said. The cleaner we are the better. We can make the common army, common secret services, common external border etc, without the “concerns” of the underminers.
Leave.
Yes take back control we haven’t got room for all these immigrants 11million in turkey are waiting to come here !! LEAVE if they come here they will have to cut down trees to build houses for them which means no trees no tress no oxygen
A sovereign nation gets a once in a lifetime chance to extricate itself from an unelected, corrupt, broke unsafe mess . A new adventure rather than an ever closer socialist disaster. What right minded person would not vote leave .
and so say all of us!! :)
Let us hope they are smart enough to leave.
Leave
We are just a cash cow for the world and its neighbours and mass immigration has been forced on us which we didn’t want.we are at breaking point.the Nhs is screwed up our kids are suffering because of over crowding schools and can’t even get into there chosen schools.our own are made homeless if they can’t afford the rent..food banks to feed our own people yet scrounges come here and get everything free.i don’t care about refugees or asylum seekers stay in your own country and fight for it.when we were getting bombed in the war we didn’t flee and claim asylum elsewhere
How many safe countries have they passed through to get here? It’s time to leave and let themselves destroy each other with there idiotic laws and policies
You are mixing up things. Do you think that the huge number of refugees is to blame on the EU? To some extent today’s mess is caused by the war in Iraq, which was also supported by the UK.
What role should the UK have in the current refugee crisis? You say, you don’t care about them. Does that mean that the UK should not bother at all about what is happening in Italy and Greece?
Is the EU to blame for the growing gab between the rich and the poor? Might it not be that some of it is due to the financial crisis? Might it not be that a part of the problem is tax evasion, something some countries in the EU such as Germany and France would like to tackle?
@ Martin………….not sure who is more mixed up here?
The EU as a pure economic block- measured by Intra- & Extra- EU trade is the largest economy in the world and remains so with a GDP per head of ~€25 000 for its 500 million consumers- despite many hick ups!
This is a guarantee for Europe’s stability & prosperity. The EU market is the most open & fairest to developing countries and imports more from the 89 LCD & Developing countries under the Generalised Scheme of Preferences (GSP) than the US, Canada, Japan and China put together. In that department the EU is a global leader & scores top points!
It is the achievements on the economic front which guarantees Europe’s general stability & well being. This hard won advantage is however undermined and gambled away by Suzerain Brussels- due to their over eager political & social policies- specifically the (failed Dublin Accord) and exploding refugee chaos and the “forced” cultural integration- highhandedly championed by ‘Trollette Merkel” who suffers from delusions and/or grandeur.
Either Ma Merkel needs to go or the UK should start the “rejuvenation” process.
I Thinks Britain want to go out from EU they want to stop coming to UK people from EU ,But don’t think how much illigal people from non EU is in UK now!!!! People don’t thinks no more holiday home in Spain etc where to spend products? I’m not political non UK citizens I live in this country from long time should I’m need go out?This is my country now.No benefit just legal work I Thinks this is reason benefit and work is not true that people from EU take job from British people.
when people go to Spain or France they can not claim benefits, they take there own money to buy there holiday home and put money into the country. And pay for there own health care if they stay there. immigration is not all bad, but any country can only take so many or they will put a strain on the school, NHS and housing.
The Uk simply hates and fears Europe, that’s all. They don’t mind if 5 million indians are coming in the UK, they mind 300 thousand Europeans. I say, out with the rubbish.
Have to stay – cannot have one’s cake and eat it.
@Cristian Niculescu-Marcu
That’s just it – some crappy nations in the EU are eating the UK’s considerable slice of cake without net-contributing to same.
Out out out lets leave the corrupt evil nasty eu
Leave
We must #ChangEU!
Leeeeeeeeaaaaaaaavvvvveeeeeeeeeeeee.
UK has to stay and all the European politic must face eurocracy with a political action in order to give us a democratic EU.
Like a big country, each state must become a region of the United states of Europe!
There is nothing democratic about the eu my friend it is an elitist institution that throws dictats at the people of Europe and erodes sovereign laws of the peple and has made the eoro zone an easier place to gain access for terrorists
There is according to stats 11% unemployment in europe excluding Britain 11% of over 500 million you work that one out and then tell me where the housing and hospitals schools and all the infrastructure are to cope with the immigration explosion and who pays for it we have ex soldiers on the streets and a failing nhs in Britain the list goes on
So we must exit eu restore laws and Border control get our own house in order then look at problems elsewhere secondly
Luciano Lobosco February 23rd, 2016
“all the European politic must face eurocracy with a political action in order to give us a democratic EU.”
Do you really believe that is going to happen?
Resistance to reform has been too effective for too long, with a focus rather on (unbalanced) expansion.
In other two control and balance mass immigration and mass emigration. We need to leave the EU because that the frist solution, we cannot be guaranteed reforms and solid negotiations in the European union. Are you following the refugees crisis, each European union members must take in certain numbers of refugees or be fine €250,000 per person or whatever. Is this the kind of circumstances we can handle? We are currently not taking into consideration ,the terrorists attacks across Europe, the radicalism of European born Young people who are going to fight in Syria. Borders without limited control is the worst thing that can happen to any reasonable country. Crimes rate will go up, human trafficking, prostitution, drugs smuggling, break down of law and order, housing crisis which we are already facing in United Kingdom. Many more problems, this madness must stop !!! Should start in and union at the expense of the freedom, well being of the people of the UK
Ugh! Why? This will NEVER work for the UK.
And who voted for the over generous foreign aid budget, I don’t remember having a vote on that.
I don’t understand why we can’t have a free trade agreement, without all the political ties and meddling …Just like we had when it was the EEC? That’s what people voted for in the 1975 referendum.. but that’s not what we’ve got now. No-one asked for a centralised EU Government, freedom of movement of 500M people and an EU court that supersedes the highest court in our land …No-one voted to surrender a portion of British sovereignty!! Of course it’s possible to trade without the meddling… That’s what we had, and that’s what we need to get back! …And if anybody thinks it’s not possible, then you need to understand that the UK is the EU’s biggest market. There was a record trade deficit of £8.1bn last Oct! The French farmers would form road blockades again if they couldn’t sell to us any more – they’d be ruined!! I shall be voting to Leave (in case you hadn’t sussed that!?!)
Hi Martin,
to some extent it would be possible to have a trade agreement without shared political institutions and courts. But very soon things get complicated and demand for institutions. For instance, if would want to trade products between countries, you need to define standards and rules for them. For example, if you want to sell groceries, you must comply with some rules (about ingredients, origin, and allergy). If those rules are different in each country, you have a mess and many market barriers. Each country needs to agree about the standard with each country and – even then – no unilateral changes are possible. Even in such a scenario in a case of conflict a court needs to judge. The idea of the EU is not to have bilateral agreements between single countries but have common recognized institutions.
Nevertheless, I agree that many aspects of today’s EU are poorly handled. As a computer scientist, I would express it this way: good idea, bad implementation. So why not fix the implementation? For UK-citizens, how would a “good” EU look like? What are the common interests among the countries that can be realized more easily with a joint effort?
@Martin U………………………..things are complicated enough!
Technical trade issues do not need a EU totalitarian state! They are less infringing matters on EU-rope’s society than social & political ones. Trade technicalities can/are easier resolved by EU internal or global trade negotiations, seeking consensus e.g. with the World Trade Organisation (WTO- Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade).
The EU is very well equipped and has action plans & institutions in place when imports are considered e.g. unfair: like anti-dumping, anti-subsidy and safeguard complaints. The gripe is, that seemingly similar safeguards to protect infringements of our social norms & stability are blatantly sabotaged, minimized & ignored in favor of a destructive capitalistic (NWO) agenda and unwanted but enforced unification’s on political & social levels- extending & creating this grand “EU ideal”- or illusion!
Important is to remain highly vigilant about ongoing TTIP negotiations- to stop politician- not from a favorable business deal for all citizens- but from further infringements against our sovereignty, personal & social well-being and safeguarding us from ANOTHER combined corrupt, political- corporate treaty. Update on TTIP:
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1230
UK could re-join EFTA and help develop that free trade organisation.
Remain!
Out
england should never be let in unless you do what every other country had to do. And as for me only the hate against germany makes you even want to talk… you lost your empire and reserve currency your determination to destroy germany the u s took all of your gold .and now no more empire and blame Germany again. churchill said if Germany comes up again the war was for not…Nobody works as hard than Germany. i think Germany has become the cash cow of the world Please stop hating Germany it did you no good
Leave as soon as possible
Stay in 🇬🇧 Better together!
@Michael Crahart
There are too many rotten apples in the EU barrel at present – the UK is being tainted by said nations.
Please go, we don’t need you
Yes, after all, there’s plenty of other rich countries queuing up to join the EU who can contribute as much as us isn’t there?
Not yet you don’t. I just noticed today Italian citizens want a referendum (ipsos mori poll) 60% AND 48% would vote OUT.
yes, we should get rid of our enemies instead of empowering them to hinder our Europe. We would have long created a European Army, Border, secret services etc. if it weren’t for a few barely disguised enemies that ALWAYS undermined everything. We need a clean, united EU so who can’t bare it just GO!!!
Leave, leave, leave, forget the scaremongering, dirty tactics,, Britain will only get worst if we stay in,, we’ll be run from EU instead of here at home,, (Britain) where the British government is,,, man up cameron
One thing I did laugh at I got a circular about all the employment benefits we get from Europe now. I say this speak to someone on zero hour contract and all the employee benefits from Europe becomes meaningless.
Out!
Out. Asap
Remain
Out before June
Iceland done it and got rid of corporate banks and its economy doing well…
Iceland was never a member.
but Greenland wass
Iceland declared default, do you remember this?
Stay or die but its just a ballsed up thatcher moment ,there’s lots wrong but he’s not up to fixing it or anything
Sponsored by ‘Brussels ‘ , what is it to do with them ????? This is our choice and we don’t need any interference from outside the UK. You will be the first to. Know when we will know on what date we will be ruled by our elected parliament , and control our own borders !!!!! Happy Days X
Leave! For the sake of the UK!🇬🇧 They’ll lie and fiddle to keep us in!
I think we should leave. We built up this once great country after the war and we can do it again. We dont need unelected people we never voted for poking there noses into our affairs. We want our elected goverment and mps voted for by us, the british people running our country . I want to see more jobs for british workers and less jobs and benifits going to eastern european workers. Lets make britain great again☺
Hi Jason,
as an Italian citizen, I am worried that the British people could actually leave the EU. Nevertheless, I strongly support your right to vote about it. My personal view is that the EU, UK and Europe would be better off if the UK stayed, though. Not for the money, but because the EU is stronger with the UK as a country with European values and culture. I think, much of the negative energy about the EU is emotional, rather than rational (just like the vote in Scotland was).
Who are you referring to by “unelected people”, the commission? I fully agree with you that the commission should be elected by the voters as well.
However, let’s not forget that most members of the House of Lords aren’t elected either.
Martin, there´s nothing that says UK can´t continue working with individual countries and exchanging values and culture if they leave. Perhaps what you have to understand is that the UK joined a TRADING union, not a political union and this is basically the crux of the matter. The EU has changed beyond all recognition towards a European state. The British people are extremely individualistic as a nation. So they are acting out from a state of emotion rather than facts which are not readily available.
Guys – Read the Red House report.
This tells you when the EU blueprint was written – 1944
It tells you how the post war Germany will unite Europe into 1 Superstate with Germany calling the shots.
It was conceived and enacted by German industrial Giants and started the whole EU debacle and is perpetuated by subsequent governments.
Anyone who wants to know how this united Europe started and the aims of it should read the report.
Get out. Get out while we can.
Let the uk leave. But, in doing so, ban all the british people from entering any foreign european country, stop all trade buying/selling with them and see how well they will do with their shitty weather and their own products only for so many people on such little land :3
It’s because of attitudes like yours we NEED to get out, frankly I HATE having an EU passport and driving licence, because I’m proud of being British, proud of the country my family fought two world wars for, and don’t forget WE didn’t run away, we fought for Europe, now we need to let Europe clear up their own mess and get back to being the great sovereign state we once were! We were doing far better outside of the EU and no one voted to join, was supposed to be a Common Market, but the people were conned, just like “Dave” is trying to do now!
Didn’t get your chance to come to the UK, Edvinas?
”Am afraid that is why we are so out of touch with our supporters and ex supporters views on the EU and immigration” Kate Hoey MP.
Video highlights of cross-party Grassroots Out rally, London: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TE5dAEgwlQ
If they are wise, they will leave the EU. The ECM was a good move…the EU is a fiasco.
I’d vote to leave if i could be sure the Human Rights Act wasn’t going to be scrapped shortly afterwards……..
We had a much better rights of man act before the Human Rights Act.
It is claimed that 70% of our laws come from the EU. But people never seem to be able to quote a specific law that is actually bad. I can think of loads that come from Westminster. I can’t follow the logic. Get rid of the EU and we’ll have three times as many bad laws, surely?
@Jess Hampshire
Given that the EU is considered more corrupt than the UK (see TI Corruption Perceptions Index for proof) your argument is both naive and worrying!
Many people from the UK and the Commonwealth white, brown and black gave their lives for a democratic peace in Europe.
The EU is not democratic, the UK cannot change it, ergo we must go!
Leave
We traded with Europe centuries before the creation of the EU. This is globalization by steps. No to the corrupt and phoney EU, created with a hidden agenda.
O U T N O W!
Leave
I feel sure the British people will vote to stay in the EU. It is the only way to ensure peace and a better future for the generations which will follow.
@Owen Masters
The EU is institutionally RACIST toward the UK – only a pro-EU zealot would deny as such!
As a British citizen I totally disagree! There is no peace with the rise of far left and far right parties across Europe. Vote leave on June 23rd!!!
We had peace before the EU.
Leave ,for every pound we put in we only get £0.46 back. It’s like getting taxed by the EU At a higher rate
@Joey Johnson
I don’t doubt your statistic but do you have the source as I’d like to use it with said source.
Leave. Cameron is saying Boris is wrong. Sorry “call me Dave” it’s you that’s got it wrong, not to mention the paltry deal that you think you got last week. Let’s hope the thinking people win and it’s OUT!!!
Definitely voting to LEAVE!
So Mr. Cameron says that if we leave the European Union we will suffer by having ‘jungle’ camps setting up in Kent. REALLY? Why I ask? The only reason that the French are suffering from having the camps at the their ports is because they allowed the transients to reach those ports in the first place.
Do you REALLY believe Mr. Cameron that we will have similar camps setting up in Kent … or anywhere else? Why would they? The reason the camps are where they are NOW is because they want to get over HERE! Once here they would disperse all over the UK, as all the legal AND illegal immigrants do now already! Why would it be any different if we left the EU??
And, may I say, if indeed the French do decide to allow them to travel to the UK once we leave the EU, it DOES NOT mean we have to ALLOW them IN. We can be like all other countries and REFUSE entrance UNLESS they have the SKILLS we need, or in the very few GENUINE CASES of refuge for children in danger.
Many people blame EU membership on this illegal migrant crisis. How many people remember that if their government has not helped to stage revolutions in the Arabian land so as to facilitate the American return to Asia Pacific, would there be so many wars and illegal immigrants created in Africa and the Arabian land? Now the Americans have escaped to the relatively peaceful Asia Pacific to stir up confrontation there but leaving Europe to cope with the mess it has left behind!
How is it possible for countries which are part of the EU such as France not to have genuine asylum seekers claim asylum in their country? Or if the first safe country they land at?
Seeing the calais/dunkirk camps is an astonishing failure of the safe EU countries these people have managed to come through. I don’t understand how these people at these camps believe they can choose which country they want to go to? If I was fleeing persecution and the country next door was safe I’d go there. I wouldn’t travel thousand of miles because I hear the UK doesn’t scrimp on it’s benefits!!
If the UK leaves. we will do as we did before, We had HM Immigration and Customs on the Border who would turn them straight back to France if they tried to sneak in.
I think the money that it costs to be a member of the EU, 55 million per day. The loss of statehood and self determination, the loss of court powers. Paying benefits to kids that have never set foot in the country, the strain on our NHS being open to any EU Citizen. The fact they have stole our fishing grounds and destroyed that industry. Never helped save the mining, or the Car Industry, or the Steel Industry. It makes you think they are trying to destroy us without a bullet being fired. And I haven’t even mentioned the immigration, or the fact that 2 million of our jobs are lost to ecconomic migrants.
London is overrun and our language is hardly spoken. It’s time to get out we buy more from the EU because they have made sure we have nothing left to sell.
Well said – Don’t forget the farmers who went out of business – had to pour milk down the drains as the EU butter mountain meant it was worthless ! Small farms on this country are now totally wiped out whilst in Norway a farm might have only 20 animals but the farmers are doing well, or course they’re not in the EU – funny that!
Europe, as a union, has failed. Maybe the exit is the best solution for British
And obey the EU, don’t forget that.
If we come out, we save directly £55m a day. That would leave quite a hole in the EU budget. Does anyone readily know what the UK’s percentage of the whole is?
In in in in n. Good save the queen
We have to go, the Europe that was is gone and a monster has taken its place. We need to go and not rejoin until it’s all about trade again
Leave 🇬🇧
It’s More than a vote over the EU
A YES means we will BECOME SLOWLY BUT SURELY AN ISLAMIC STATE
VOTE NO TO EU AND ISLAM
THIS IS THE CHOICE
The thought just came to me – suppose we could VOTE for who WE want in Brussels to run the EU – would that make a difference to your IN/OUT decision?
I doubt it, the main issue with the EU is no one is actually in charge. You have 28 countries arguing in the best interests of themselves and clearly for anything to happen there has to be winners and losers. The UK is a net loser and which is why we are getting out
No!
Of course! But no cartels deciding on laws. The Truth is that, right at the top, the politicians are pawns of the huge corporates, the banking and global financial interests, and the EU is their vehicle for seeing through an agendda. European civilians are just pawns on the hamster’s wheel.
I agree Tony Furze. Britain doesn’t need to leave the eu. It needs ro stande stronger and negotiate harder. Leaving will not ease the immigration and economic migrant crisis. The borders will suffer from loss of cooperation between countries making the situatiln worse. It may also effect the cooperation of other governments in the fight against terrorism.
Many Brits moved to other eu countries , long term for work reasons and they and their famillies are intergrated in their new country, working and contributing to that economy, but now face the possibility of loosing all their rights. Many may be forced to return to GB in severe financial difficulty. Will they have any rights or help on their return. How will this influx of returning displaced Brits affect the British economy,NHS etc.
In and fight your corner Britain.
Babel ready to fall apart.
In.
In.
Leave
Leave
I deeply belive in the EU. Hope UK will not leave.
I deeply belive in the EU. Hope UK will not leave.
I feel very sorry for you if that’s the case! Look at the bloody mess it’s caused!!
LET US LEAVE!
.
If you have been paying attention to the mess Brussels as made of your EU you will already know the answer.
Like the man said.
http://www.quotesbycelebrities.com/sites/default/files/winstonchurchhill-137.jpg
.
If you have been paying attention to the mess Brussels as made of your EU you will already know the answer.
Like the man said.
http://www.quotesbycelebrities.com/sites/default/files/winstonchurchhill-137.jpg
I really pro European organisation, but if they want to leave, please do so ! We don’t force anyone to stay. We need a huge reform within the European Union, it’s not working anymore
Jerome Fitz February 23rd, 2016
“I really pro European organisation, but if they want to leave, please do so ! We don’t force anyone to stay. We need a huge reform within the European Union, it’s not working anymore”
I keep seeing this. Even pro EU individuals and “remain” campaigners keep mentioning the need for major reform.
Given the past record I have no confidence that this is going to happen… So let’s get out before either of two things happen: the EU keeps going on, stacking up problems, or the EU fractures. Better not to be there in either case.
If we leave, France, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, Greece, the Czech Republic and the Netherlands will leave.
We need to make it work, which means we must have to be free of those who undermine us.
We would have long ago had the European Army, European borders, secret services, common energy policy, with renewables if certain countries would not have systematically undermine it. It is a chance to clean our EU up and get the union to fulfillment.
I really pro European organisation, but if they want to leave, please do so ! We don’t force anyone to stay. We need a huge reform within the European Union, it’s not working anymore
United Kingdom in a United Europe. Makes perfect sense. United we stand divided we fall.
Out for sure .
Time to leave.you will be better off.
In
LEAVE
Leave
Out out out out.
We must leave
My sincere question to the ‘out’ crowd.
Do you REALLY think the UK will be able to have influence over Russia, China, the US?
REALLY?
Sovereignty is a very relative notion in the modern world.
@ Brian Huebner
Do you really think the UK has any influence over Russia, China, the US presently? If that is your thinking you are way off beam. We are run by China and the US. China is buying up all US stock and Europes. The dollar is about to bust and we, as the 51st state are stuck to Uncle Sams arse like shit to a blanket.
The only hope for salvation is to get out of Europe and let go of Globalism.
Leave, and Junker can shove the eu rag of a flag up his arse!
Out
Why shouldn’t we ? Where’s your faith in the UK, we should be able to make our own laws, decide who enters the UK and be able to boost our own forces.
We wasn’t always in the EU, the EU is becoming more dictatorial each day.
David Cameron claims that his deal is ‘legally binding and irreversible’. However, the former Director General of the Legal Service of the EU Council said: ‘There is no possibility to make a promise that would be legally binding to change the treaty later’.
His reform package was dealt a further blow after leaked documents revealed that German chancellor Angela Merkel told EU leaders at last week’s Council not to worry about the Prime Minister’s demand for Treaty change. She stated that ‘on the question of amending the Treaties, we do not know if we ever will have a change of them’.
The Prime Minister’s deal is not worth the paper it’s written on. EU courts and EU politicians can rip it up straight after the referendum. The only way to get real change in our relationship with the EU is to Vote Leave.
Yes, vote to leave. If it wasn’t for Merkel and Orban that Cameron would be the most disgusting character in the EU. Not even the UK and rightwing supporters on the continent can pretend to support the upgrade of the little englanders already special status. As usual, the EU is weak with the strong (UK, France, Spain, Italy) and strong with the weak (Greece, Portugal).
For our future we must leave please
Out but check out what else is happening that day football etc perhaps a few people might be missing the vote well thought out david
Brexit = Economical Suicide, and a disaster for trade, tourism and industry.
Economics: Were doing pretty well outside the Eurozone thank you
Trade: The EU sells more to us then we do to them, so who has more to lose?
Tourism: You seriously think tourists come to the UK because we are in the EU??
Industry:Sadly we don,t have any left, though without the stupid protectionist rules from the EU there is a chance we can recover some
There is absolutely no point in taking part as they will only try to brain wash you into voting in . This could be the very last time I ever vote for anything as it’s clear its all corrupt
stay!!!
You wonder how the UK will vote … this latest debacle of Merkel opening the borders without any regard to a semblance of rule of law followed by EuroCrap imposition on sovereign member states of same unchecked migrant quotas may have sealed it for the out vote. Many see the EU as having become a corruption and organized crime funding machine. The Mayor of London Boris Johnson (who coincidentaly I voted for) is perhaps right when he says the EU has turned into a political project with no roots in the will of the citizens (no democracy).
We want our country back… Out out out
GO!!! nobody’s holding you back.
They should stay and help reform the EU so it serves the people with the Varoufakis DiEM25 Pan-European Movement together with Caroline Lucas of the Green Party, Podemos, Blockupy Europe and many others. You have to be in it to change it.
“Julia Hadjikyriacou February 23rd, 2016
They should stay and help reform the EU ”
So many agree that the EU needs major reform!
Sorry, I think it’s too late, given how resistant to reform the EU has been, and with its focus still being on expansion.
Being one of 28, 29, 30, when we don’t believe in “ever closer union” anyway?
(we were sold “a free trade area” only on 1975.)
It’s up to British nation to decide at the upcoming referendum, regardless what others might hope.
Leave
THIS IS NOT EUROPE DIFFERENT LEQUAGE , TAXES , INCOMES , HEALTH , INSURANCES ETC I THINK IS BETTER TO LEAVE
OUT! No more privileges for UK. Other members are struggling with immigration crisis, with debt issue.
Our “Privileges” cost 55 million a day. I think we’ll take the cash instead.
Better for UK is to stay in EU.Then unkle Rot….d will be happy.
Ok.if you ..leave…don’t expect the united kingdom to remain united… England. ..Wales…Scotland Northern Ireland ….think before deciding….
I’d love Scotland to leave quite frankly. I’m fed up of subsidizing scottish nationals using the barnet formula thank-you very much!
The UK cannot remain a member of the EU, it has no option other than to leave. Which I am sad to address as I had been a staunch Europhile.
My reasons for this change of view are multiple. However, the main reasons are, there is no true of the people democracy. The people of the UK cannot choose or change those selected by the appointments in other States. Ms Merkel is not a suitable leader, as she and many of her counterparts do not have the best interests of the European citizens at heart. Her crazed immigration fetish is the invention of those lacking in rational thought.
When European leaders are ready to arrest, bludgeon and possibly shoot their own indigenous people for the sake of driven unsuitable citizens of other countries, then they are useless to those who voted them in. And we in the UK did not vote for Ms Merkel, or Juncker and many, many others.
Next, EU law has changed dramatically over the last forty years, much of which is not in the best interests of the British people. Many of our own people are being made homeless, workless and impoverished by these changes in law. We don’t want TTIP and if we remain in the EU, we, the people, cannot change any EU decision on it.
And, biggest of all, the EU is run by bankers, financiers, NATO and many, many other hidden, invisable jokers. Look at what they did to Greece. In our own back yard we can vote Cameron out, get rid of Trident, vote out of NATO and have a say on how we decide to live and work, all with our own best interests.
Example: If our politicians keep bringing in millions of immigrants for us to feed, house and watch them treat our culture with disdain, we can get rid of those politicians directly. We have a voice. In the EU we have no voice, we are simply back to serfdom.
The EU is the equivalent of an octopus, embracing the line of the American war machine and crooked bankers but we are powerless to be rid of it or them. This does not mean our own bunch of MP’s are not playing the old politically correct jump to their tune game, but, if the power of the people rises against them, we can dump them in the sea as quick as you can say Jack Robinson. We can bring back the system we had where we could call for a no confidence vote in any government, after two years, or less, not have to wait five long years to crack their nut wide open, as we do now. All because of Europe and its five year bull.
I could go on adfinitum, but, what I am saying is, we want our country back. Not end up like Greece who voted for a man who said he wanted free of them and found he was trapped like a mouse when he reached for the cheese in Brussels.
Not only that, there is worse to come. If this referendum is lost, and the ins win, the snare will be tightened around all our necks until we are choked to death. As the rulers despise the people and the countries they run. They want to change them out of all recognition. Look at what we have today. We are virtually a third world dump. Running around looking for work as servers, whores and dealers in gambling facilities. Our industry has been sold, our seas stolen and our fields and agriculture directed by the simpletons in Europe who won’t take no for an answer.
So Britain must come out or loose all they hold dear.
Catherine, I share with you the experience of becoming increasingly disappointed by what the Maastricht-EU turned out to be. I also agree with your analysis.
The current EU establishment is completely lacking empathy for its own people, the memberstates nations, instead worshiping illusionary xenophil ideologies to the harm of us all.
The exit of Britain, as much as I regret it, will hopefully, not terminate European cooperation but open the door to a more reasonable EU where the balanced interest of Europe’s historical nations are in the centre, and not obscure, unelected forces behind the political curtain.
If we leave..that will mean that this heinous government will be free to do whatever they want to us and we would be even more screwed than we already are…Human rights for an example…GONE !!!!
Mark Jackson.
The UK was the backbone and lawyers of the Human Rights Act. Don’t be stupid. It is a UN thing not European.
Out asap
If we stay in this anti Christian dictatorship, our forefathers died for nothing fighting for our freedom in WWII
Amen to that!
Even for them they should stay….
Out
I said it and will comment again. This is not an European issue, it’s a Westminster problem.
Only the anti-brits say things like that, how come so many Europeans outside th UK think they know what’s best for us?
Leave
Out brothers, out!
We should vote out and 23rd June , will be our Independence Day .
While remaining true in preserving my pragmatic stance in support and respect for old fashioned (political) sovereignty for ALL over/against EU suzerainty- while at the same time not discarding the support for greater and fairer economical cooperation and advancements between all 47 European nations internally & globally- a Brexit- I believe- would initiate vital but overdue EU reforms.
If not mistaken, the latest utterances by David Cameron- that HE achieved important “EU reforms” are blatantly misleading and wrong. Clearly, HE only extracted some (minor) concessions for the UK but not EU reform! Who is wrong?
In respectable memory of late Harper Lee: “But this is a truth that applies to the human race and to no particular race of men.”
Out.
Out of EU.
Out.
What happens, eu votes out, multinational companies start moving their companies out from tiny UK market to the EU market where they are free to move goods, people and services…..Nissan, Cadbury, Honda etc. UK suffers deep depression and goes cap in hand again to rejoin their huge trading bloc, this time UK in the ropes and we have to join on their terms including Euro, we will regret ever being so utterly stupid
What makes you think the multinationals will leave the UK? they don’t just export to the EU you know. ..and if, for example, the EU puts some childish import duty on UK built Nissans, then the UK will put a similar duty on German built Mercedes and BMWs…and guess who will be worse off?
Paul x what makes you think they won’t. its in their interest to take our business – most of the 27 have a balance of trade in England’s favour then once we’re out we will have even less influence – they will be able drain us dry – our land and port hubs and our financial centres are already targets. Unfortunately the EU exists the only way to deal with them without hand poverty to our kids is to keep your enemies closest.
@ Sheffield.
“Unfortunately the EU exists”
That’s on a par with many “remain” advocates.
Many speak of “a reformed EU” which they must know isn’t going to happen, on current evidence and past record.
Or of having influence if staying in, when the record of the UK actually being able to change anything is minimal, and prospects will be reduced further when more countries enter with voting rights biased in their favour.
The EU, as it is, is an ugly undemocratic thing. It is far more likely to get worse that it is to get better. We should have been given a referendum on this much earlier, but UK politicians ducked it. Particularly during the time of the Lisbon treaty (and did you see how EU member Ireland got treated then?)
We have this one chance for separation.
It’s time to take it. Before the EU starts shaking itself apart more messily
(Greek debt issue is due to come round again: it wasn’t solved, just “kicked down the road ” a bit.
YOURE OK IN THIS COUNTRY,,,,, as long as you’re not BRITISH….
I would like to know how Britains exit will affect the millions of our people working and living in the EU. Also how pensions will be affected for those who have retired to Eorope. These are destined to be the forgotten people….
Don’t see why, people have been working and retiring in other countries long before the EU came into being. It just depends on what sort of childish retaliation the EU takes if the UK dares to leave
Why would countries like Spain or Portugal do that? They would be shooting themselves in the foot!
Member of European Union
Who dictates in the EU? This is a political institute where every country has its own delegates. Many European companies, like banks for eg announced leaving UK if it gets out from the EU. Britain’s loss, the rest is just right wing cheap Greek style political propaganda
The facts matter, not some meaningless separatist assertions, after all.
P.S. EU is distancing from the US sick policy, so Washington decides to order the exit of the UK from EU and mobilize enormous weaponry in Europe against the “threat” of Russia, the only country that hit the US interests by bombing ISIL.
To Ciobîcă Ovidiu: as mad conspiracy theories go, that’s a mad one.
“Washington decides to order the exit of the UK from EU”
US has shown some preference to UK staying in.
“mobilize enormous weaponry in Europe against the “threat” of Russia,”
Disinclination to get into conflict with Russia was why US and European support for the (early) rebels against Assad was muted.
” hit the US interests by bombing ISIL.”
ISIL is an American asset? Don’t be silly. America regularly complains that Russia’s “anti-terrorist strikes” have primarily been further north, against Kurdish and other non Isis groups.
Isis fighters would slaughter their own commanders if they believed they were being paid by or duped by agents of America.
Hmm. That might actually be a good false rumour to spread.
Manufacturing and goods and exports to America and the rest of the world is slightly higher than business Britain does with the EU. That is what the figures suggest. So therefore all this rhetoric about being worse off if we leave the EU is just scaremongering designed to force the British people to vote to stay in therefore securing Cameron’s EU pension. The EU is a failed out of date organisation designed to control the member states and destroy there welfare and sovereignty
I would suggest to stay without economical colapse.
I’m no politician but here’s my take
1…around 2 million uk unemployed
2….around 2 million foreign working here
3… leave the EU
4..
This would drastically cut red tape
Allowing uk firms to save money
This increases turnover they could pay staff more which in turn could wipe out unemployment therefore saving billions on the welfare bill .the money saved on eu fees could be used to improve health education and generally for the uk population. Our borders would be more secure the eu would continue to trade as before they sell more to us than we do to them the financial markets would be ok as sterling is far more trusted than the euro for our future generations the obvious choice is leave
Rule Britannia
Forget economics we can get through that, with what we save how about british culture, way of life. English language, christianity. British laws, lived with it for hundreds of years and managed, now we are being overrun by foriegn language, islam, arabic, sharia law, mosques dont want it dont need it. No room in our hospitals, schools, housing etc. All planed to destroy us as a nation. Dont let it happen. VOTE OUT.
B. ..up mosques
FYI ISIS are very happy that UK will leave Europe they believe that its the end of Europe and a big victory for the islamic state ISIS !! and the believe that because of their day and night prayers it happened !! WE DON’T WANT THAT
We are stronger together with Europe we can fight that monkeys !!
Leave
No
I feel that the british public need to know clear and full facts of what it woukd ‘m ean to stay or leave The main pint I want to know is if Turkey has its special relationship with the EU does that kean we will have to accept mass immigration from a country which is culturally worlds apart from us.Ibelieved when we went into thecommon market it was an economic union I did not vote to be part of an ever increasing federation of European states who hold sway over our national laws.
We must stay in Europe.
The United Kingdom that we know today may disappear and new republican system may appear.
1- Scotland will definitely leave the UK and if they do it will be a START END : Scotland is shown to generate more per head of population than the UK as a whole. For Scotland, it is £26,424 per head compared with £22,336 per head for the UK, according to Scottish government estimates.
If you do not include oil and gas revenues then there is little difference in the figures – GDP per head in Scotland was £20,571 in 2011 and for the UK it was £20,873.
2- UK National security will be in a big risk , Extremist are very happy about that. they are praying day and night for UK to leave because as they believe that if UK leave Europe is finished and that what they want exactly. We don’t want that we are better together.
3- 300 Billion GBP is the cost of Brexit the EU. Who will end up paying that money ? Borris Jonson ? Goldsmith Family ? WE WILL END UP PAYING THAT MONEY.
4- Europe is paying the bills for our London Underground and many developments in country side and thats a very good benefit.
WE MUST STAY IN !!!
1. The SNP would love the UK to vote out and the Scottish element of the vote to be in because they can claim that is a trigger for a second referendum. But that is them looking for an excuse and until the votes are cast nothing is certain
2. If anything UK security will improve. Out of the EU all visitors to the UK will be subject to the same checks.
3. 300bn cost? interested to see where that figure has come from, all I know is we will be saving 55 million a day from the moment we leave
4. Anything the EU “pays” for in the UK is just them returning a small amount of what we hand over to them…are we really supposed to be grateful to for that?
Leave
Guys staying in EU is the end of our work market. Yes few companies will make more money and expand. But people like me won’t see any benefit from it. Few years back you could go to Turkish restaurants and see Turkish ex refugees working for say £350 a week. Now you have bulgarian Turks working for £250 a week. So the market is driven down in terms of wage this is why they made a big fuss about this living wage thing because the economy is getting worse in terms of income. We simply can not accommodate any more people we have the same population as france and we are half the size of France can you see what I am saying? You can not have west of EU with average minimum wage €10 and east average €3-€5. Everytime there is a crisis in EU people endup coming to UK or Germany or France then what? What do they do? They end up working for less than minimum wage without being declared fully and try to survive. Its not their fault but it’s got to stop. You think its ok to employ people from EU and stopping their benefit for 4 years going to do the trick? Well whilst they are working for cheaper and costing a British national his job (I know It sounds harsh but it’s the truth) the British national will have to claim. So as a result someone will have to access state benefits still the affects of mass migration from EU. Is Switzerland in EU? Norway? Nope and they are doing better than us…
Yep, my son is married to a Norwegian lady, he and his family have lived there almost 20 years, they are much richer than the UK, have no problems in Trade agreements, higher wages, better standard of living, good health services and no overcrowding , don’t get involved in wars that have no connection with them – I’d live there myself – but the immigration rules will not allow it, how daft are we if we stay in the EU?
It’s lot of crap u write.. British people had to find jobs after recent benefit changes and blaim foreigners for taking their jobs. Easy target.. They are angry as the money stopped coming from the sky. The truth is we had a huge group of people draining benefit system, making no effort to work and contribute to this country. They shout loudest and should stay quiet! Every inteligent person knows what leaving EU means. I hope Britain will remain, but sometimes wish people voting to leave could taste the consequencies.
who will work for them? England blinds when you leave the peel-off. because the English are lazy and do not work as much money as the “immigrants”
What a racist comment! You have just lumped a whole nation of peoples into the category of lazy, shame on you!!
That’s the whole problem isn’t it, blame the British, but it is our country, and our Government needs to stop benefits for British people who are fit to work and make them work as the jobs available. I am sick to death of hearing complaints about Britain and the British, we used to have a saying in Australia is was FIFO M8 Fit it or… well I leave the rest to your imagination… stay or leave but quit with the insults and integrate, I couldn’t care which!
If it wants to stay in the EU then it must apply ALL the EU norms like the rest!
If it wants to be only part of the EEC, then We can comply and leave it at that, but without any voice in EU matters!
If it wants to break away, it will be painful but be my guest and go without remorces!
They should cut off ALL the welfare benefits for EU migrants who have not worked and paid taxes in UK.
AND SEND THEM HOME.
and then, YES, UK SHOUD STAY IN EU.
Without EU will not go away
Exactly.if someone not working,he don’t have benefit.nothing.
The main reason is that the UK politicians and big corporations, banks etc. Want to have tax and rule exceptions, etc…
I am so sock of the media particularly ITV they are only interviewing people afraid to leave. This is a campaign of fear are the British people a buch of cowards it appears that the majority maybe.
@ Graham Adam
The Eu pay the BBC annually to back them in any deal they do or they will withdraw the money.
Likewise any British politician or those who have a connection to the EU will lose their annual stipend and their pension if they bad mouth Europe. This is why so many of the journalists, the papers and the media are giving nothing but stay stay stay. They don’t want to be robbed of their EU funds.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/the-millions-in-eu-funding-the-bbc-tried-to-hide/
And
http://ec.europa.eu/contracts_grants/index_en.htm
The deal is, you never speak against them or funds are withdrawn. Take the Kinnocks for example. And there are a line of them on the take.
You mean the BBC the ITV is an independent organisation but the BBC are funded by the government!! they won’t bite the hand that feeds so they will throw negativity on the leave campaigners!
If I was English I will stay in but I am french and I say get out! !
Well Done little green frog X
In
Leave also NATO. Then it well be 100% independence.
Out out out
Im a UK citizen i’ll be voting out
It is a simples question with a simple answer…
1. If the UK wants to be part of the EU. Then it must be part of it without reservations.
2. If the UK just wants to revert to a EEC status. Then the EU should allow and be prepared for that, but the UK would need to abdicate from any kind of political involvement with EU politics.
3. If the UK decides to leave. Then leave and best of luck. We’ll treat the UK as We treat Norway or any other European nation that isn’t part of the EU. Through bilateral agreaments.
PS – It’s SHAMEFUL that UK’s government wants to apply social limitations on EU member state citizen migrants when those are working and contributing for YOUR social security system!
Actually the issue is about those who come here and immediately get benefits without contributing a penny
What is shameful is the fact people can come here and claim child benefit for children who have never set foot in the UK, justify that to the UK taxpayers?
“Europe is run by a sprawling bureaucracy”
Not true. The European Commission has fewer employees than Leeds city council
……at least Leeds City council doesn’t move to Glasgow at regular intervals to hold meetings…
Out for me
We need to get control back. Control of our laws, control of our borders, control of our businesses, instead of going cap in hand to other countries asking for permission to act. The EU is holding our country back and we can’t vote them out if we don’t like what they do, like the dangerous TTIP agreement they are going to force on us (Google it), which will put the NHS in the hands of American big businesses.
We are more than capable of arranging trade agreements ourselves and will be free to trade more competitively with all European countries as well as the rest of the world. We will be safer too. The Paris bombers went from Belgian through to France without having to show passports or being challenged. We can only let people in who we want here and who can contribute to all our success.
We can spend our £55 million a day on our NHS and schools and helping to eliminate the need for food banks instead of paying unelected, mostly men, to zoom around in private jets. We MUST vote to leave and take back control of our wonderful country!! Give true, full democracy back to the country that gave it to the rest of the world.
well said!
http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/mythbusters/
If we could all persuade just one person to realise how lucky and safe we are, we could stop the disaster of the UK leaving the EU.
The only disaster for this country is remaining part of this political inbreed union called the E BLOODY U!
I Don’t think we are Informed enough to make this Decision !! It’s a Huge responsibility !!!!????
Stay. Renegotiate
The fact this is even happening proves how unbelievably ignorant the UK tax payer is.
Trust the Government.
We have no homeless people,no student debt ,no home repossessions,no debt,our Nhs is doing Awesome (appart from them pesky juniors) and We’re All living in the Golden age …
Right?
Uk should leave better for those brits holliday makers will need a visa to enter the rest of Europe. It wont be a passport only as the passport will no longer be valid to enter spain, greece, portugal even almighty ibiza for holiday. Brit will have to apply for a paid visa to enter. And those brit living abroad in other eu countries without with a proper documents will be deported back home. Expecially those brits in spain that are racially the spanish people in their home country.
Why do people think Visas and changing currency to enter another country is such an issue? The only ones who benefit from this are those that live near borders or who cross them on a daily basis but as far as maintaining security free movement is a disaster
and I think you will find most Brits in Spain contribute to local economies and considering the state of the Spanish property market do you really think kicking out all Brit property owners is going to happen?
It is sad that from a great, tolerant country UK is turning into a bunch of haters, who hate the former communist countries in Europe just for the sake of hating, for no valid reason but to suppress the feeling of being losers in their own personal lives… Just because hating and exploiting the vulnerable gives them the illusion of being stronger… The complex of the bully… Also constantly boasting and parading with their money and insulting the poorer countries, as if money is what determines the value of human beings or the cultural richness of nations… Those people are pitiful but if they are the majority population in the UK, it seems they will have to learn their lesson in humanity the hard way – by facing the unknown consequences of their “No” vote in the referendum. A thing to remember – there will be no turning back! With just one blow UK will have turned all its European partners into enemies! This would surely be an enjoyable life for the haters, but what about the rest of the British people? How are they going to put up with it? Will they at all? Will Scotland stay in UK? Hostility, negativity and ignorance is what will destroy Britain, not membership in the EU!
Rather bigoted view I think. Do you speak for the whole of Europe? I think you must be very young and naive – we never voted to join the EU but a Common Market, we don’t hate anyone, we just want to be self governing and allowed to make our own trade deals. Attitudes like yours will only encourage those who would have voted to stay to think again!
Complete bollox. I think you will struggle to find many people in the UK who actually “hate” anyone else in Europe, it is the EU that is despised as a bloated, inefficient and expensive club for second rate politicians. I would rather our 55 million euros a day was given direct to the countries that need it rather than direct it through the EU where half of it gets syphoned off to keep the elitist slobs in business lunches and undeserved salaries and pensions
Lisa and Paul X, what is the attitude of UKIP and their supporters towards Eastern Europeans and especially Bulgaria and Romania? It is of the sort “We can live with anyone else but not with you!”. These countries are constantly being singled out as the black sheep, insulted and blamed for being the reason for all problems, even though the non-EU community is much larger and non-EU immigration is higher. If EU citizens are a burden on the hospitals, schools and social services, then surely a larger number of migrants from outside EU is a bigger burden, but we do not see such hostile attitudes directed towards particular countries and incessant vilifying of those countries, leading to discrimination of its citizens in UK. This is what I was talking about, but it seems you would only notice unfair treatment of Muslims, Asians or Africans in UK, but not of Europeans.
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You need to get real, didn’t even mention UKIP – we don’t have an axe to grind with any country, we just want to rule our own! What’s wrong with that?
Well said, Maia!!!
As far as I’m aware UKIP’s policy is get out of the EU to end free movement and then a points based immigration system which will apply to ALL nationalities..I don’t think they plan any particular additional measures for Eastern Europeans?
Yes, but as an argument to this, people are complaining of the arrival of Eastern Europeans, so obviously, the purpose of the whole exercise is to keep Eastern Europeans out.
The current reference to Eastern Europeans is only because they happen to be the most recent countries to join the EU and be given freedom of movement rights. If the EU opens its borders to martians from outer space and they start arriving tomorrow they will be the focus of everyone’s attention. The point is it matters not where people are coming from it is the whole issue of free movement which is flawed
I don’t think it is flawed, Paul. You are now changing your own criterion from level of skills to date of arrival. You see how it doesn’t make sense. You are trying to hide the real reason why, Paul. You don’t feel comfortable about it.
Yasmine, I’m not changing anything. The reference to skill levels was just me explaining UKIP’s policy, that doesnt mean it is one of my personal “criterion”
My reference to Eastern Europeans is in answer to those who claim they are being singled out, as explained they are the current topic because they are the most recent and uppermost in peoples mind.
But yes it is my opinion that free movement is flawed. Free movement throughout Europe without proper controls at the EU’s borders is a recipe for disaster and you need no more proof than to see what is currently going on
OK, so, this is what you are saying: the UKIP wants to close the borders to EU citizens and introduce a points based system of entry not because it wants to keep out Eastern Europeans/latest arrivals but because it wants to get rid of non-EU migrants and asylum seekers from Syria, Iraq, Morocco etc but the UKIP is using Eastern Europeans as an argument as to why this should happen only because Eastern Europeans are the latest arrivals. Makes perfect sense. Thanks for explaining. Or should I say mansplaining? LOL!
Yasmine, the thing that links these facts is you
Your first post on this thread asked for details regarding subsidies, trade and tourism, I responded with figures on those three topics….you only got what you asked for….. or is your memory that short?
Yasmine, no that isn’t what I said. If you are getting confused it is your own fault for making things up.
UKIP,s policy is to control immigration irrespective of where people come from…it doesnt get any simpler?
i refer you to my first response to you paul and ultimately maia’s. you just go round in circles as you are trying to make excuses where there are no excuses to make…
Yasmine, who exactly am I making excuses for?
My input on this thread is due to a insult being aimed at my country being a “bunch of haters” and then subsequently some untruths about UKIP’s persecution of Eastern Europeans
Seems to me you are making the excuses in trying to defend the indefensible
And you have very obviously cleared this up, Mr UKIP defender…
When in all else fails make things up eh?
I have at no point said I agreed with UKIPs polices I have merely explained them for those who cannot be bothered to go read them for themselves..
http://www.ukip.org/ukip_launches_immigration_policy
Of particular relevance to this discussion is the line….
“Abolish rules discriminating EU citizens from non-EU citizens”
This flies in the face of those Eastern Europeans who whine UKIP is picking on them, clearly UKIP want to treat everyone equally as bad (or good.. depending upon your viewpoint)
This is a matter of urgency. Life of our children born and unborn generations to come determine the choice we make today. Question if the United Kingdom was not in the European union or didn’t join the European union in the frist place, wouldn’t we survive as a nation? Australia is on it’s only, China, Iran, Canada, Singapore, Japan which is not the size of South East England is proving the world, that you don’t need to become a babysitting country before you can be a great Sovereign state. Russia is also an role model. We can’t continue as a dumbing ground for the European union? We can’t be taking in every body in both illegal criminals, drug barons, benefits seeks and all sorts of people who don’t have business in our country. We can’t be giving houses to asylum seekers ,people who no ,European citizens when we British people are homeless and facing houses crisis . we should stop jumping to conclusion that we are rich by playing or pretending all is well in the UK, when more than 60 % are living in crude poverty-stricken conditions in over crowding places in London. The British politicians and government has been using BBC and the power of media and police to hide reality from the British people. North West, North central, Midlands and Scotland some other parts of UK are underdeveloped with all the European union contribution and money received. We need to leave to the European union to be able to control our borders
No brainier. Work it out
Remain, no man is an island.
The führage and his hate campaign against the eu with his pink shirts and little old ladies is leading GB back into splendid isolation
Your probs. Not ours. Write a book
Britain is better off to be in the EU, no doubt about that. Boris Johnson considers Mr. Cameron a lame duck and just using the Euro skeptics to become the next prime minister and nothing else.
I’d vote Boris for PM in a heartbeat!
Boris is just protecting the interests of the rich bankers, whom the EU wants to regulate.
What total rubbish I like Barmy Boris he makes more sense than you do.
This country is being robbed by the greedy EU gravy train as the brilliant Andrea Leadsom pointed out on last nights EU debate.
I hope we vote OUT! and stop giving these greedy selfish people in the EU billions of our money which is just draining our economy if we stay in we will be a third world country Hitler would be proud!!
The UK is an island.
Believe in Britain! Get out as soon as possible.
Out
Innn
Remain for sure! The financial damage will be huge if it leaves
for whom? The EU takes more from our country than we get back, better on our own with our own laws and closed borders
have you got any specific numbers we can look at lisa/ in terms of subsidies received, revenues from trade and tourism etc/
£55m a day has been quoted as the UK net contribution but looking at this it seems £23m a day is more realistic, still a lot of taxpayers money
https://fullfact.org/economy/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
We continue to run a trade deficit with the EU
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/international-transactions/outward-foreign-affiliates-statistics/how-important-is-the-european-union-to-uk-trade-and-investment-/sty-eu.html
Regarding tourism I think this is an interesting graphic….yes it does show that a large percentage of visitors to the UK came from EU countries but look at the details for who was actually spending here and boosting our economy… puts a slightly different perspective on the data doesn’t it?
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/ott/travel-trends/2013/info-visit-numbers.html
No specific numbers, jus assumptions…
£23 million looks like a figure to me? ..in reality, as far as the argument goes it matters not whether it is £23m, £55m or £10m, everyone on all sides admits the UK is a net contributor to the EU budget
£77.6 bn trade deficit with the EU in 2014 looks like a figure? seems to be well justified in the article and not “assumed” to me
The fact the 2.7m visitors from the US spent £41 million more in the UK than the 3.9m visitors from France did..looks like a figure to me?
To be honest I don’t know what side of the in/out argument you are on but as far as I’m concerned all the assumptions are being made by the “in” campaign with their scare stories of 3m job losses etc, none of which can be validated by anyone
Paul, your figures are not showing anything in particular. They convince you because you wan to be convinced. I am not on any side of the argument. All I am saying is that your arguments are no arguments at all but just populist ideas that people repeat but they don’t make sense. I am from Greece and during the time that Mr Tsipras was creating all this fuss about staying or leaving, which wasn’t even official, many businesses packed up and moved to Bulgaria, a much poorer and corrupt country. There was no fuss about it. It was done quietly. If these people are willing to do all this just for the sake of trading within an EU environment, that is saying at all. And I think it is pretty much a precedent as to what is going to happen to any country that leaves the EU. There is no scaremongering or anything. Having no borders is good for business and people already have their business networks which they want to retain at all cost. Period. There is nothing emotional about it.
Yasmine, it is nothing to do with me being convinced or not, they are simple facts. The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget…..fact
The UK has a trade deficit with the EU…fact
Non EU tourists spend more in the UK than EU tourists…fact
How people want to interpret these facts is up to them but in general they are not very useful for the pro EU lobby. So maybe you have some hard facts that support the case for the UK staying in the EU?
No, I can’t see how they work in favour of the anti- lobby either though. So you have a number of facts that are not necessarily the full picture and are not necessarily directly connected to each other. There may be other facts that are not given here and the economy is overall a complex thing. It is not just a matter of 4-5 figures. Yes, I have a very good reason why the UK should stay in the EU. Because it is a European country, it is a founding member and it should help to realise the goals of the EU which were to prevent any further wars by promoting co-operation and trading/commercial activities. If there is something wrong (which there is a lot of) obviously it needs to be changed for everyone not just for one country and several countries need to come together and have their say in the EU parliament. Because united Europe is bigger and stronger than the US but is unfortunately consuming itself on petty regional arguments and modern-day tribalism. And people come here thinking that they are saying something very clever but are actually being small-minded and are letting themselves be manipulated by bad politicians whose policies are unprofessional and don’t make sense.
Yasmine, the thing that links these facts is you
Your first post on this thread asked for details regarding subsidies, trade and tourism, I responded with figures on those three topics….you only got what you asked for….. or is your memory that short?
hi paul, you have responded but have failed to make any point or prove anything in specific with them. that’s because there is no way of measuring the benefits or detriment to UK economy as a result of EU membership. it is just your assumptions.
so here is a small clue as to what the EU is paying wales for example, which paul has conveniently omitted when responding to me. that’s just the welsh, I am not going to look for northern Ireland, Scotland etc. ;
http://gov.wales/funding/eu-funds/?lang=en
presuming these people are too busy working hard to come on this website and be heard. but guess what, paul, the EU was created in order to defend and guarantee the rights of those people and not those of rich bankers that fight about whether their bonus is going to be 40 per cent or 100 per cent of their annual salary and are prepared to come out of the eu over it.
Yasmine, what part of being a net contributor is difficult to understand?
So we send large amounts of money to the EU and they “give” us a percentage of it back ..to be spent on projects dictated by them complete with blue starred “aren’t we generous with other peoples money” badge….and we are supposed to be grateful?
It’s like having your car stolen but the thief gives you the bus fare home and expects you to say thanks….
Whereas you would rather spend it on bankers…
Very interesting to compare voluntary membership contribution to stealing, esp. when there is no clear evidence that the UK is worse off because of its membership. Obviously, yet another brain that lives in a cave.
Actually it’s a close call if it is better to spend it on bankers in this country or inefficient French farmers…..
…and there is no clear evidence that the UK is financially better off for it’s membership……so is your brain’s cave in the same street as mine?
So, if there is no evidence of either, why are you carrying on about the financials as a criterion to leave? Answer: because you are small-minded and fail to grasp the cultural and political aspects of it. Being unable to see the forest you come here posting 10 comments about the tree…
To Yasmin: You say (apart from when in other posts you slip to personal insults)
” ..the UK should stay in the EU. Because it is a European country, it is a founding member and it should help to realise the goals of the EU which were to prevent any further wars by promoting co-operation and trading/commercial activities. If there is something wrong (which there is a lot of) obviously it needs to be changed ”
Being a European country is no particular reason to be in the EU. and the rush to expansion has been both to far and too fast, with rules being bent and broken on the way. That’s feeds into existing “things wrong”. The goals of the EU promoters are for more than you say. You will see many posts here say were were sold a “free trade area”, “the Common Market”, in 1975, and that overall was an idea approved of. It wasn’t what developed, nor was it the ambition of those who were heading (initially very quietly) to monetary and political “ever closer” union. Many British feel we were lied to then by European and British politicians. We’ve not had a chance to respond to that by voting, since.
“If there is something wrong”! There’s a massive amount wrong, again recognised even by pro-EU posters, yet a consistent feature of the EU structure and management has been an utter resistance to reform: why should anyone think it’s going to get better? With added countries I consider it will only get worse.
Oh, and the UK wasn’t a founding member.
It’s time to be out whether the EU proceeds or it falls apart.
Either way, better not to be there.
Yasmine.
The emphasis is on financial because that is the main reason to leave the EU
.
The EU doesn’t make a penny, it takes money from countries, spends a large chunk on keeping itself running and then redistributes whats left. As a business model it is a failure, it adds no value to what it does,it just drains resources
I’m definitely interested in what you consider the Political and Cultural advantages of EU membership are though?…please explain….
For the greedy bankers you mean!
That’s the whole point, Paul….that you haven’t made ANY point on the financials and my guess is that you yourself don’t understand what you are talking about…or you just don’t want to admit that it proves nothing…
Out out out
We have been going round in circles for years, we vote an MP in on his promise to change something and the EU tell him no! I really don’t care to argue with anyone who has not lived in both an independent Britain and under the thumb of the EU. And this is for Yasmine, maybe Churchill is not someone you ever respected, I attended his funeral -I wish we had someone like him in charge now! Whilst he fiercely defended our Country’s sovereignty and he also saw the bigger picture which is why he stopped at Berlin. Pity the EU didn’t stop there too, the size of the EU has made it unmanageable, it’s not about racism or UKIP which you keep throwing around like a beach ball – it’s about wanting to remain independent, it’s about electing people who can carry out the people’s wishes, it’s about not throwing money at people who think the world owes them a living. We have cut benefits to many people – why then should we give them to non British? Give us some facts – reasons for staying in! Up until now I haven’t seen anyone give a reason to stay in that makes any sense at all!
Like I said before, but has not been published (?) I have given a reason why the UK should stay in the EU. Lisa, your views, which are that you want to re-live the 70’s, Churchil’s time etc and that you want to come out of the EU because you don’t want gypsies in the UK, are clearly backward, acist and not relevant to the EU. I find your posts shameful (I am referring to the ones about gypsies). The EU is about looking forward to the future and not about recreating the past, so, if that’s what you want to do, I really think you should come out of the EU and let everyone else move forward. I don’t think that your posts are doing the average Brit much justice but you seem to fit into the stereotype of the person that wants to come out of the EU: over 55, without university education and voting for the UKIP. I think hence your views.
Yasmine
“The EU is about looking forward to the future and not about recreating the past”
So why don’t you say how you see the EU in your future and just how long we need to wait to before we have a successful Euro, low immigration, good job prospects and financial stability in the EU?
Do have strong, visionary, intelligent leaders who can see into the future? Do we have people like Churchill and Magraent Tactcher who can stand up for the British people.?And said no to the grabbish European union is throwing at us a nation. The British politicians that we have are only Oxford, Cambridge, and Kings college minded, without focus and purpose of the freedom and rights of the people of UK. Politicians can never be trusted, because they never tell the reality. We do no where we are currently going as a nation because European union is unpopular a, club of the German politicians and French bully
Out of the disaster that is UE
And more will go out a Europe rule by Germany again no thanks. And the next bank to fall is the deutsch bank. No more saving the German and French banks
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We should get out as soon as possible
We should get out as soon as possible
This EU is not what we dreamed… Better a confederation
I agree the EU is far from a united organisation it’s just a greedy one!
This EU is not what we dreamed… Better a confederation
I think some people are also thinking that if the current system is seemingly unfit to understand the reality of what is happening in Brussels, the relativelly small city where they are mostly based (I am referring to Molenbeek) how can it understand and represent the reality of 400 million people? Maybe Boris Johnson is indeed right. This has turned into a political project with no roots in democracy. Further evidenced by Merkel appearing to have powers above any semblance of law to open Germany’s borders to unchecked migrants and then forcing on quotas to other sovereign nations ??????
Totally agree!
Germany needs to be thrown out, not uk.
If they’ree smart, they leave
Como ciudadano de la Unión Europea,ya estoy mas que arto de la actitud prepotente y saboteadora de Gran Bretaña,en el proceso de construcción europeo. Si no quieren contribuir en la construccion de una mayor unión politica,es mejor que abandonen la Unión. Mejor 27 unidos,que 28 divididos. No puede ser que la Unión se combierta en un 27+1. Si algun dia deciden empujar y no frenar el proyecto europeo,seran bien recibidos.
¿Tiene miedo de abordar este debate en Inglés? Su ataque contra los británicos no hace más que confirmar que somos mejores de OUT!
Arrogance in the extreme, we are not the only country in the Union seeking reform and I think we are better off leaving now before total collapse of the EU
.
We had better hurry up, the way Brussels is handling the Schengen migrant crisis there might not be an EU to leave.
Isn’ t it boring asking the same question several times?
The EU needs reforms, but I think at this time wrong for anyone to leave
“José Vaz February 24th, 2016
The EU needs reforms, but I think at this time wrong for anyone to leave”
Even the pro-EU are saying this time and again, but reform has been resisted tine and again. Who believes real reform will happen before it’s too late for them?
Let’s get out before the bigger and nastier cracks appear.
Who’s going to listen to any of our reforms Cameron tried it and his idea was vetoed. Get a grip Jose there will be no reforms.
Vote Leave!!
I think it’s time for Europe to become one! When Scotland wanted to leave the UK, the motto “better United” was used all the time, but gets to Europe, and the sense of inferiority the Brits have towards Germany and Brussels, blinds them to a union. The lack of democracy in the EU, is partly because a confederation is not yet fully formed. And the Brits are the best at party pooping!
I agree 100%
Cameron should have resigned when that referendum returned negative. but instead he is just pursuing the same tactic in a different context.
Remain, but we must have rules for the countries who wants to live. Not the best of the two world.
e a seguir temos o FinEXIT !!!!
Leave for their own Good.
One more reason to quit the EU.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html
i dont really care if they leave, im just sorry they robbed scotland on their referendum and strongly argued EU wont let them stay a member, and now they are forcing them our along with them.. give back the money and leave EU, nobody wants their imperialism anyway.. i wish we could exit
@Miroslav Nikola Ćurić
I would have taken umbrage about your inaccurate and slanderous comments about the Scottish referendum BUT then I saw your clown-like picture.
BTW, I don’t think the EU can give the UK back the hundreds of billions the UK has given to the UK as the EU cannot afford it!
As the eu shows more and more cracks in its structure, it would be in a not so far future not any longer a question, who should leave or remain a member… Over a not to long period of time none would cry a teardrop after this dumb creation…
“Go in Peace. But Go!”
EU is an idea, which I hope becomes one day a reality. If you believe in this idea you should stay and try to convince other states for what it needs to be changed. If you don’t buy into this idea then you should be allowed to leave. Maybe British people feel more part of the British Commonwealth than EU.
My point is that EU is something more than just a trade agreement between nations.
Yeah I think we should leave because its boring being in the EU
I think its a shame Scotland did not win their Independence, the English would no longer have to subsidise them and without the Scottish vote we would easily win freedom from the EU. The Majority of English people are disadvantaged just to keep the minority of Scotts happy.
Totally agree!
Totally agree !!!
LEAVE!
IN!
How can you trust Brussels with the accounts when they have never had there accounts agreed as correct.
The Uk should never give the EU money until the accounts have been signed of.
This is only one point in many Business will do better out the EU, Lets get back to what we voted for a COMMON MARKET and not to be ruled by the EU. Vote OUT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwLtyvGdNbc
The EU will develop further , it has too because the halfway house we have now does not work , I would like to see someone from the EU clearly spell out what further integration is likely in the next 10 years .
well said, Shaun, You can’t stay engaged for ever. Either you have to marry or go your separate ways.
From what I’ve read so far, the major arguments for staying in the EU seem to be based on the fear of the unknown. Of course no one knows exactly how things will work out if we leave, but it will be a gradual process and it would be in everybody’s interest (EU members and the UK) for the transition to be as smooth as possible.
If we leave so should VAT as it was a requirement of joining but will they give away 110 billion each year , NO . And it can’t be lower than 15 %. Also the common market at the time not long after the war , was started with stolen NAZI gold , strange that Germany is now in charge.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12173908/If-the-arch-Europhile-Lord-Owen-wants-out-of-the-EU-it-should-make-us-all-stop-and-think.html
Leave.. 2 points.. Surprisingly agree with John Redwoods economic insight. Secondly, look to the future, ‘big’ nations ( GER, FRA, UK ) carrying ‘smaller’ nations ( ROM, BUL, GRE, HUN ), this would only be exacerbated by addition of the likes of Turkey etc. Now is the time to get out, stand on the periphery and economically dip in as we see fit. OUT before we lose the option.
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Why would our leaving the political union affect our economy ?
Trade will still take place, people will still travel & the sun will still rise in the morning.
The only thing we will lose is the antidemocratic dictates from Brussels.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-voters-more-likely-to-turn-out-in-force-poll-finds-a6898766.html
“Noinadeka per sent ov das ekonomistji sagenas dat das Brexit provokos domadji in das Ekonomia – “Same das proponentji ov das Brexit ne abas un idea klar ov vat potus passiri”. Mer ov noinadeka per sent ov akademikji kuestioned von das Zenter for Makroekonomia in Skola ov Ekonomia von London akordas dat das posibilita ov Brexit potus provoki insertitudia in das marketji i same provoki alter riskji ekonomik.”
https://www.facebook.com/Das-Projekt-Europeze-901196643311441/
The truth is that UK was,is and will remain extremely strong than any state in UE!
Not much….maybe few headquarters will move to ireland…
No much affect at all….for us.
Maybe they will have a little setback at the begginning but soon, free of corrupt EU, british economy will bloom. The world is more then the agonizing EU.
I am in favor of reforms and European referendum Europe urgently needs a change and we can not continue our patients rest o life
i posti di lavoro sono in pericolo ( se lo sono ) per la politica neolibesta inglese . Fuori la UE è neoliberista e dentro idem . Con il BAIL-IN scarica sui cittadini europei le sue speculazioni bancarie ? Questo ancora non è chiaro
Leave NOW
With migration up wages down, house prices up what future for our children and migrants, a very poor standard of living for the majority
There will be no Brexit- there is too much at stake .
@ Georgia Kanellopoulou February 29th, 2016
“There will be no Brexit- there is too much at stake .”
For whom? We should stay just in fear of anything worse?
That depends on the current state of the EU and even more on where it is heading. I don’t think a few exemptions for Britain amount to “EU Reform”, which is widely seen by both sides as badly needed in an entity highly resistant to it. And “ever closer union ” but not for all the EU states looks like further fracturing in the future, or a united “core group” well placed to bully (or merely dominate) its smaller satellite countries.
I don’t see a new dawn coming out f the EU without major reform, which I can’t see grounds to hope for,
I think “leave” actually puts considerably puts less at stake.
Brexit is best for the EU! The worst has been done already with Cameron’s egocentric, neo-liberal deal. The EU needs solidarity to solve its problems, and Cameron’s deal will open the doors for other governments to ask for more self-interested privileges. A Brexit will push the EU to work hard and quickly to solve its problems. While the British will not be able to cope in the short-medium term with the negative effects of leaving the EU; British failure will serve as an incentive for other EU members not to leave the EU. European problems will, then, be able to be solved in a truly reasonable collective way.
If UK wants to leave the EU, its government needs to know that all trade negotiation/privilege the UK has acquired under the name of EU would not be applied. The UK has to negotiate alone with all countries. We shall see with what a single country ranking the 10th in world economic size can negotiate a better deal with big economies or trade blocks! By waiting for the fruit of the negotiation, we shall see how the British people can cope with particularly in this turbulent period of instability.
Actually we are 5th in the world economic table, within the EU only Germany is above us and they will certainly want to keep on good trading terms the UK. We should also be able to work on individual agreements with the other 3 above us (US, China & Japan). Look at it from another angle that maybe the UK economy is being held back by being tied into agreements geared to those below us in the league rather than working to improve our position with those above?
This is democracy, politicians are misleading and doing lip service for election purpose. Few of them would fairly display all different options and realities for rational choice of the people. After several decades of economic integration, I cannot see how the UK can opt out of the EU without causing great harms to its economy! Who are going to suffer during this period of instability? Responsible leaders would not risk the whole population for personal interests!
At present I am sitting on the fence and have not decided what way I shall be voting. My understanding is that the EU has put something on the table to discuss if we vote to stay in. Immigration seems to be an issue, yet this is not fully explained, reports state we had a further 350,000 come in from Europe. If this is the case, can some one explain if the tex credits and welfare apply to these, is this extended to the families they have still living in their home countries?. Also what happens to the existing EU immigrants already here if the vote to exit is carried?. Now on the other side is the economy, will VAT still apply to all goods if we leave? As I believe this is an EU directive to apply VAT.
My feeling is we can not trust the EU, so any proposal needs to be in placed and signed before we vote.
On a positive note about the EU I feel it has done a lot to protect human rights in the work place, we now have shorter working hours and an employer needs to have permission from the employees to extend these further than 48 hours per week. I also enjoy the freedom to travel.
Putting aside whether you agree with the employment policies or not, the fact the UK elects a Right wing government but has socialist legislation enforced on it is not exactly democracy is it?
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and we had a democratically elected Left wing government but the EU was enforcing a capitalist agenda?
@David Morgan: please vote to get out.
As a continental, I am sick and tired of bratty britain whining and getting extra privileges due to Brussels not having a spine to stand up to UK’s blackmail.
Get out !
Go sink in your “sea” or something. I don’t care, just get !
@Adrian Limbidis
Ok, ok, ok – no need to be so rude.
Please don’t forget though that if there is a Brexit then it’ll take much longer for the EU to upgrade your personal transport conveyance from a horse and cart to a motorbike.
We can see from history that once a bold decision is made, we can only continue and progress. In this era when everything is about speed and innovation, if the British people are indecisive in progressing with the pace of the global system or going back to the good old days, we would always be trapped in the transition without going anywhere.
What troubling UK and other EU member states are facing is that they are trying to harvest the economic benefit by joining together as a big economy which can compete with other big economies but they do not want to join as a unified political economy in this new era, we are talking about the global political economy, which is, economy and politics cannot be separated. In a global system, economy and nations cannot be separated neither because everyone is one the same boat. Either we sail together or we drown together!
@ Paul:
The EU is not, in the remotest sense, socialist or left wing. Surely Greece is a huge example of that. The EU is run and managed by the financial globalist market makers. As we all are. And most of the big time players in that little brigade are Americans, keeping their cash in its billions off shore in tax havens.
So, your rant is ludicrous.
However, my reasons for wanting the UK out of this union is for those very reasons listed. The Ukraine, and the interferring likes of Nuland and her kin Kerry. War mongers and terror promoters. Remember the ‘socialist’ Tony Blair who along with the Bush idiot who started this Middle Eastern crisis. And we in the UK cannot rid ourselves of his leavings or indeed him and his American cronies whilst we remain part of the EU.
The only way the British people can ever return to a democracy we understand in its own right, is for the people to be able to vote in their ‘own politicians’ and kick their arses out when they don’t do as they promised they would in their warm speeches of how much they love us. When we are rid of the EU dictators we will, at very least, be able to begin the return to a true socialist or conservative political agenda. Not have all our legislation overuled by those we do not agree with, condone or vote for.
We will also be able to shut our doors to those we don’t feel are right for our country, as, we can relieve ourselves, should we choose to do so, of the UN insistance on feeding all people, who are in the majority of the thrid world. Whilst they turn us into the same ‘pillar of salt’ backward looking group they come from.
Capitalists are lovers of poverty for the citizen and socialists want to alleviate its effects.Those we have on both sides of the Atlantic pretending to be either are duplicitous cheats. The only hope we have are Sanders and Corbyn unless they too are Blair creatures.
Then there is the enigma Trump? Now will he really fight the establishment of Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, European Central Bank and the IMF. Unlikely.
But, that aside, we first need to be outside of Europes noose if we are to be in with any chance of freedom. Just as Henry VIII knew way back when it was run by the Vatican.
Catherine, I was not claiming the EU is left (or right) wing it is policies I was referring to. My point (not rant) was if an enforced EU policy is in polar opposition to the beliefs of the elected UK government then it makes a mockery of our democracy. Clearly people in the UK who despise the current government think this is a good thing but in simple terms, and like it or not, if the UK votes Tory it has a right to expect not to experience left wing policies
Propaganda pamphlet from our 1975 referendum…
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm#front
All sounds very familiar doesn’t it?
“We explain why the Government, after long, hard negotiations, are recommending to the British people that we should remain a member of the European Community”
Look at the paragraph titled Money and Jobs. It boasts great success in preventing the UK from entering economic and monetary union, obtaining the rebate and being VAT exempt on food…and what happened?………
We entered EMU which was a complete fail and we were kicked out, our rebate is being eroded and is under constant threat and there is current discussions about making us put VAT on food
Take a lesson from history, even if people think Cameron’s “hard earned” concessions are reason enough to stay in, you can guarantee from day one the EU will begin the process of reversing the issues, and it will do so
@ Paul:
Do you seriously believe you have a ‘Tory’ government running our country? If you do you are way off beam.
Cameron has opened doors to the immigrant population by more than double any previous so called ‘left wing’ group. And these are from outside the EU not those from within it. You know, the ones we are supposed to have control over. Cameron did a deal with India to take in millions more of that population. All kept quiet of course.
I repeat, our government, no matter what it says on the label, is identical with policies whoever sits in the PM seat, as it is not run by those we vote for. It is in the hands of the Globalist contingent. Like that or not.
It does take a little while to absorb but finally it falls into place, once you grasp the reality of what is going on.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378889/India-s-premier-tells-David-Cameron-Let-more-migrants-into-UK
This shows that immigration from outside Europe, or, those who are so called controlled, is higher than it was under the Blair ‘socialist’ regime and his open door policy.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics
No wonder Cameron said when he was running for election in 2010 that he was the heir to Blair.
This may interest you. It exposes some of the extremity of spin and the effect on our every day reality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0HmR557dQ0
Catherine, I fully agree and understand what you say but I think again I have been taken to literally where as my point is a general one regarding the undermining of national democracy by the EU
If at the next UK general election there is a landslide 100% vote which democratically elects the Monster Raving Looney Party into government, why should the UK be subjected to serious policies from the EU?
Catherine,
I do not think that Tony Blair following the led of Bush has anything to do with UK’s EU membership. Ever since the World War, UK has been the closest ally of the America. Ever since the inauguration of the Cold War, the US has been leading the West on the political and ideological confrontation with the Soviet Union, still after the Cold War, all so-called democratic countries had to shake hand with the US president and take a photo in the White House. It is your leaders of the West who have been submitted yourselves to leadership of the American with the consent of their own people, as if your leaders are not shaking hand with the American president, they don’t have the legitimacy to govern. This has been continued till all the political leaders are driven away from their office by people’s vote after the invasion to Iraq without finding any weapon of mass destruction. In addition, the 2008 Financial Crisis broke out from the American Wall Street, European people start to realized that your closest ally and international rating agents dominated by the American interests have been telling lies and giving AAA grade to rubbish. This has fueled further resentment towards the US. Ever since then, political leaders have refrained from visiting the White House. We have not seen shake hand photos at the White House for some years still now when the UK is still an EU member state. There is nothing to do with EU membership and your leader’s following American led action blindly.
Of course the Eurozone is not sustainable. Thus, if the Eurozone collapses cui bono? Primarilly , the Amercan dollar- which is no longer the dominant economy.
Anyone remember Winston Churchill? Oh yeah he was the little Englander who sent the British to help the rest of Europe, our forefathers died in their thousands, several of my family are buried in Commonwealth War Graves in Belgium and France – the price they paid to defend the French, Belgians, and half of Europe, another died at Gallipoli while the Italian leader changed sides, history tells it’s own story – we are strong without the EU and will remain so.. oh yeah back to dear old Winston, who gave the best advice…he said ” We have our own area, our own task. We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea”. The man was way before his time, we could do with a PM with a pair of gonads right now!
I´m sorry this is a ridiculous reason to get out of the EU. Britain or Europe today cannot be compared with that of 60 years ago. The question is whether the UK is better or worse of today outside the EU. Do we have the political leadership today to guide us through the intricacies of standing alone or standing up for our rights within the EU. Do we have the necessary industries to sell our products abroad or not. So folks lets stop talking with our emotions and start to think with our brains. I personally do not have enough “good plain facts” to make an intelligent decision yet.
Lisa has a valid point. Just a reminder to please re visit (during times of EU inspired confusions)- Article 1 in both the UN Charter & International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ratified in 1945) – the right to “self determination”- aka political sovereignty.
http://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/ccpr.aspx
One hears so many times the wish for a “European” USA (or USE). The US- not to forget- is however a fully sovereign nation with a solid constitution since 1788 and has a mighty army- all its members swearing a solemn oath to their sovereign country & constitution.
The EU political treaties are a lousy and incomplete attempt to hoodwink this continent into something which it is not & never will be! It will remain a lame duck copy of the US & a victim of a global corporate conspiracy- to be easier controlled by the Rothschild’s & some co opted Luxembourgers & their friends!
To develop a fair European trading block & to prevent corporations via TTIP to become our government masters- is a difficult enough task already!
And if you move into a cave and light a fire, you won’t need to spend money on heating, Lisa.
Lisa, I don’t think that Churchill sending thousands of the British to the war is not only to help the rest of Europe. It is because Churchill knows that if the European continent is ruled by the new giant, Germany, UK would be isolated at the Northern Sea with all its southern exits would be blocked! What I am trying to say is that no country can survive alone, particularly in this jungle like international arena, which is, collective security is not only a slogan of the post-World War international relations but a forward looking strategy of the modern era. The fact is, we are now in a post-modern era, which is, there is no one single political ideology dominated the post-modern international system becomes a global and multi-polar system…
He was also the WORM who SOLD eastern Europe to the russians in order to keep things cozy for the west.
We do not forget that either, “Lisa”.
@Yasmine
Lol!
In the UK moving to a cave and lighting a fire therein stopped being a la mode centuries ago!
Is this common in your beggared, buggered, benighted and baloney country?
Joking apart, you will miss the UK’s money if a Brexit happens.
Whilst all the politicians battle it out amongst themselves how on earth do we, the voting public in this referendum, get relevant information to make a decision?? There is so little real data, just rhetoric. Time for someone or some organisation to cut across the nonsense exchange between politicians and start educating the public properly about the pros and cons. Let’s get out of the schoolroom and have a proper dialogue with real data!
Ray, maybe this hint could assist?
“I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.” – Albert Einstein
http://www.returnofkings.com/50178/why-self-education-is-superior-to-todays-structured-schooling
Yasmine don’t be ridiculous, our standard of living will improve when we aren’t paying VAT on food, which the EU will without a doubt soon bring in, I’m tired of the racist remarks from people outside of the United Kingdom, stick to facts!
What racist remark have I made, Lisa? Surely it would have been removed by the page moderators, if it was so?
The European Union
Why we might choose to leave the EU….
1. The EU is a customs zone not a free trade bloc and after 40 years less than 5% of UK business trades with the EU ‘partners’
2. 65-75% of all laws effective UK are created or established in Brussels not Westminster
3. Net migration from EU just in the last 3 years is 819,000
4. Net contribution by UK taxpayers in 2015 was £8.5billion
5. As an additional layer of government each MEP costs annually £1.79m, x3 times that of an MP at Westminster
6. The common agricultural policy due to subsidies costs each UK family £1200 per year in higher food bills
7. The common fisheries policy means we cannot enforce 200 mile limit (most of the North Sea) around the UK
8. We vote for a party of UK government and are largely governed by Brussels
9. The countries with the highest GDP per capita in Europe are Norway and Switzerland who are not in the EU. Both export more, proportionately, to the EU, than Britain does.
10. Outside the EU, Britain would be free to negotiate much more liberal trade agreements with third countries than is possible under the Common External Tariff.
Tomorrow the benefits
At the moment I’ve got lot sod people will be shocked and ‘Cheese’ any more help appreciated!
After 40 years, the merging process has rendered UK business multinational business. Besides, UK is producing things common to all European products. The way to survive is to do business with non-European economies, which is what the UK business are doing, I think! Go global rather than confining UK at Europe and commodity price would only race to the bottom when UK compete only the European market.
If UK has no migrants, I do not think that it can have a relatively good economic growth when comparing with other non-English speaking economies.
Be fair, we cannot emphasize only how many billion the UK taxpayers are contributing to the EU. How much the UK has benefited from being an EU member needs to calculate. It should be quite clear that EU membership ought to have contribute much more to the UK economy than 8.5 billion pounds. Besides, we do not know how much more tax the British enterprises and people need to pay without an EU membership status…
Martyn, this is an excellent article and I look forward to the next instalment. I would love to see reasons to stay in as well.
Many people do not really realize that we are in a turbulent era created by the globalization process since the 70s of the last century. The emergence of a global system needs new strategies to overcome new challenges it is creating. The EU is actually a product to cope with the new challenges. The collapse of the Soviet Union makes ideology irrelevant in international politics as we have seen that democracies are doing business with communist rule China, Vietnam and recently Cuba. The 1997 Asian Financial Crisis marks the emergence of China as a regional economic stabilizing force. The 9/11 and current international war on terror mark the irrelevant of national boundary for terrorists come from both outside and inside of any country. The 2008 financial crisis break out from the Wall Street but Europe is still struggling to recover… The current difficulties are not result of EU but a consequence of a drastic changes in the international system which cannot be handled with traditional foreign policy inherited from the last century. Leaving EU does not solve UK’s problem, instead EU needs to make itself an even strong union to cope with the new crises. Leaving EU would not be making UK any better, instead it is putting the UK to an isolated situation to confront new challenges alone!
Do you not realise how expensive our products will become if tariffs are reintroduced. Families on the bread line are already struggling as it is. I think the UK really misses the point of the EU. We should get our people travelling and building better ties within the EU (See ERASMUS). The UK on it’s little island is isolated enough as it is but our attitude towards people born in other countries really holds us back. I think a referendum on the EU is just irresponsible. Politicians learn about this and understand the benefits and problems of the EU. The general public do not. Most people only understand what they see on the news which is not a true picture and why are we one of the only countries where everyone votes but nobody learns about politics?
However, I do agree that average commodity price is quite high after the use of Euro. I wonder whether this has adversely affecting people of member states with poor economic condition.
“Most people only understand what they see on the news which is not a true picture”….. this applies to your reasons given to stay in as well as the reasons to leave
Prices may actually drop, wages may go up, who knows, you don’t know any more than the rest of us
@Zoe
Families on the breadline in the UK are struggling significantly because of EU immigration which forces down the wages of families on the breadline.
ERASMUS is a pro-EU propaganda initiative.
Many people in the UK are unaware that Euronews [the anti-UK RACIST ‘news’ channel] peddles a deliberate anti-Anglo-Saxon agenda.
You do not appear to want a plebiscite – another anti-democratic EU characteristic.
Some of the general public may actually understand BETTER than you what being in the EU means.
Please Zoe, mark my words – in 10 years time:
when the EU has foisted TTIP on the UK via the EU,
when the NHS turns into an American style system,
when large corporations run UK prisons,
when big business dominates UK schools,
when large corporations can sue governments for potential loss of profits [see what the EU says about Scotland wanting to introduce a minimum tariff per alcohol unit in a bid to save lives],
when the 8 poorest regions in the Northern EU [all British] get poorer still after wealth re-distribution by the EU to corrupt club-Med nations,
I believe that many UK citizens will revolt.
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS FOR BREACHING OUR CODE OF CONDUCT. REPLIES MAY ALSO BE REMOVED.
Tariffs are only self imposed. For example the US will not buy our cars at rrp so we have to sell them at a price the US are willing to buy. However if you bring a Jaguar into the UK from the US OUR government will insist on you paying 28% to bring it back into the country.
To understand tariffs I’d point you in the direction of Professor Minford of Economics @ Cardiff University.
@Yasmine
Oh err, it appears that you have made an emotional, illogical, offensive and incorrect comment.
What country do you hail from again BTW?
Leave. Gods, let them leave. Or hell… KICK them out.
And then stop playing nice.
We can hit them with some tariffs they’ll never see it coming !
The EU must show that it ALLOWS countries to leave, but that it is willing to make life MISERABLE for those who – otherwise more countries will think they can get the benefits without cashing in.
Go ( to hell ) UK already !
Really & who is WE? 7,85 mio Bulgarians?
Att.: all 15 EU “receiver-subsidized Members”:
Prelude:
The Treaty of Nice (2003) defines the current (contradictory) and complicated EC voting system (352 votes, ~500mio people & constantly in “amendment” mode) within the 27 strong European Council (+No. 28 Croatia in 2013) applicable until 31 October 2014- or more exactly- by request until 31 March 2017 under the Lisbon rules-(“double majority”).
Stats show: “Bulgaria” with her ~7.85 mio people received 10 EC voting rights- equal to e.g. Sweden & Austria. So lets compare some figures:
The average (2007-2013) contributions to the EU budget show:
*Austria 2.5% & GDP growth 0.1%, net contributions + € 733 mio,
*Bulgaria 0.32% & GDP growth 0.7%, net receipts (“minus”) € 873 mio,
*Germany 19.9% & GDP growth 0.3%, net contributions + € 9,507 mio.
*Sweden 2.68% & GDP growth 0.8%, net contributions + € 1,318 mio,
*UK 10.7% & GDP growth 0.5%, net contributions + € 4,872 mio,
*How would the EU divide the new available UK voting rights-
*Compensate for the loss of UK’s net € 4,872 mio EU contributions
*what would the effect on GDP growth- specifically for the 15 recipient (beggars) Members be?
Conclusion:
The attitude & behavior of some EU beggar nations/voters/Euro recipients are, as if they already own a majority EC voting right and portray a sense of arrogant entitlement. This is surely annoying to many and the opposite of being humble & grateful. In fact it is downright rude, shortsightedness & boisterous.
I notice with concern a similar attitude within Muslim refugees- once the reached the save haven of Europe- they develop & exert ever greater pressures on their hosts to demand compliance to suit their culture- without regard & intend to ever integrate willingly into their European host’s way of live.
Their demand is reverse- like Germany with a ~20%- acting as a “majority” in a similar boisterous fashion under so called “equals”!
@Adrian Limbidis
Many in the UK want to leave the EU – we are sick and tired of paying for ungrateful economically [you are an EU net contributions beggar nation], politically [see TI corruption Perceptions Index], culturally [I mean the ‘Cheeky Girls’ – really] and morally [See TI again] inferior countries like yours.
Rest assured though that if the UK leaves it will take longer for the Romanian infrastructure to progress from steam to electricity, abacuses to computers and from tunics to suits. :)
As regards hitting the UK hard post an implausible Brexit please note that tariffs are illegal unless sanctioned by the WTO and besides I’m sure that any Romanian Doctors would NOT leave the UK NHS even if their UK wages were halved as that would still mean they would be earning 5x more than they would be in Romania.
If the EU pushes too hard post-Brexit then the UK would never re-join the EU and would be more liable to join NAFTA or ASEAN or whatever than the demographically-challenged and geographically-challenged and hyper-corrupt EU.
PS: I recall you spouting off over the ‘non-invasion’ of the UK by Romanians. Erm, FYI the invasion is well underway and is further depressing the wages of the UK lower and working classes as many [not all] unqualified, ill-educated, English-language challenged types from hyper-racist Romania [against the Roma] leave their inferior country towards pastures that are actually green as opposed to faecal-coloured.
PPS: I can’t blame them BUT such a large vampiric diaspora is negatively effecting the UK’s infrastructure eg healthcare, education etc etc and making life difficult for the UK’s poor.
PPPS: I’ve never heard a Romanian say ‘thank you UK for all your financial help’ – care to break the mould old bean?
Wow, Tarquin, the arrogance and hatred are unbelievable! I didn’t know there were such people in the UK…you really think there is no electricity in Romania? What else do you think?
Adrian Limbidis…”,it is willing to make life MISERABLE for those who [leave[”
So the mask slips and the real face of the EU appears… “Mutual cooperation, but only on OUR terms” (add evil laugh here)
Almost all the answers on the “remain” side seem be “we don’t dare” (or from Europe “you don’t dare”.) Very little of a positive, actually attractive, image is being presented.
Not even in the future as “reform is needed” is another regular refrain.heard from even the most pro-remain contributors.
@Yasmine
Clearly, your sense of humour differs from mine.
What do you think?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/a-black-day-for-disabled-people-as-government-pushes-through-cuts-to-esa-a6918421.html We can’t afford to help our disabled, why should we keep subsidising the rest of Europe when our own people are suffering HUGE welfare cuts, you stay in hell Buddy, you’re only angry because we don’t want to support the rest of the EU any more. The trade deficit proves you need us more than we need you – do some research before you keep slagging off the UK – oh and if the UK is so bad – what does everyone want to come here?
Tarquin Farquhar, when did you come from Pakistan and when did you start accusing other nations of being beggars? It seems you have forgotten very quickly what your own motherland is like? It is obvious that your values are hatred, agression, ignorance, oppression and discrimination of those who are different from you. Therefore, you are better suited to comment on Afghanistani affairs, but definitely not on European! You simply don’t know anything about Europe, its cultures and civilisations! Your comments are spewing ignorance, hatred and intolerance! Don’t think that since you are in the UK, you are sitting on the right side of God! Be respectful, especially being a guest on our continent (or its islands)!
EU reform- proactive, you seem to be choking with figures, but you forgot one – UK foreign aid – 12 billion a year, to some of the most corrupt “beggar” countries in the world – Pakistan, Ethiopia, Bangladesh, India, Nigeria, Sierra Leone and others. Can you offer the same breakdown of what Britain is benefitting in return of sponsoring these “beggars” (as you term poorer countries in need of financial assistance)? Why is this aid not axed yet, or may be you want to potray yourself as a nation full of love and compassion towards all suffering human beings in the world, UNLESS those human beings are from Eastern Europe? The mask of tolerance is falling! British people in favour of exit from EU would tolerate anyone in need but not their European brothers (English culture is much closer to the other Christian European cultures, including Eastern European, than with Muslim Asian or African ones)! So you got rid of discrimination against Africans, but replaced it with a new black sheep, or white sheep, I should say! I thought British values had improved since the 1700s, but it seems I was wrong!
@Maia- Hi there!…………”choking with figures”? Maybe, but it’s better to use neutral numbers to portray uncomfortable & hard facts, void of sentiments, emotion & blustery.
Dear Maia, i do/did not have any personal argument with you or your comments nor what YOUR political EU stance may be (“democratic choice”)- only with (part) of the present (unworkable) EU ideologies- suzerainty and its unfolding consequences!
I responded to a certain “Adrian Limbidis”- who better deserves to be ignored- but needs to be reminded from time to time that “King Vlad’s” times are long past.
I believe he did not win any Mr. EU titles nor was he appointed a model pro EU ambassador by the EC- since his mundanity would surely disqualify him.
Any foreign aids issue- (brought uncalled for into this discussion)- given in addition to net EU contributions to the 15 recipient EU members- is & should not be a concern of the EU nor any of its Members. Should that however be the case- would add another good reason to demand our full sovereignty back- which i stand for.
@Maia Alexandrova
Oh, err – please refrain from venting your inarticulate spleen – you only reinforce the negative stereotype associated with under-informed pro-EU zealots!
The EU has attempted to unify Europe and got it horribly wrong . The introduction of the euro at the wrong time ,expansion south ,at the wrong time and expansion east in a hurry to take control of post soviet states . The EU has failed in almost every area it has ventured outside the original concept of a free trade area .
UK governments has often rebelled against further integration to appease the people yet then further down the road let the very same laws or legislation through under the cover of darkness hoping nobody will notice .
The free movement of working people has somehow changed into the free movement of jobseekers ,scroungers and beggars . Camerons ‘reforms’ will have little effect and lets be honest were a side show to the main point .
I’m on the leave side ,I don’t see any way we can stay in with the current set up that ignores the spirit of its own treaties in favour of its own agenda .I love Europe (well apart from France) , I travel all over it enjoying the subtle differences of culture ,I work in various countries ,I also don’t have a European passport which kind of blows away any argument for staying in as regard ease of travel (I’m often through border control quicker than my EU passport carrying travel companions)
Anyway I’m waffling ,give me a good reason to stay that wont apply if leave and I’ll think about it
OUT
Yasmine, you love stirring it, but you are attacking people you know nothing about. My husband came to Romania several years running, helped re-build schools and playgrounds for the kids, hospitals and such. All at his own expense and in his free time. We know how poor the country is – but we don’t hate it, we just don’t fancy having the țigani driving horses and carts down out High Street. ;) As for attacking the name Tarquin, sure it’s not Anglo-Saxon it’s Latin, a language that has been integrated into English, no one speaks anglo-saxon any more by the way. Seriously though, you still haven’t given any good reason why we should stay – in fact your attitude makes me even more determined to up the campaign to leave!
@EU Reform- Proactive
VERY good posting.
BTW, I think last year the UK was a net EU contributor to the tune of €10B-€12B.
My island friend- yes- using similar stats & embarking on even more detailed scrutinizes into the progress of every one of the “15 European (loudmouth) laggards”- being (endlessly) rescued from drowning in a sea of negative financial and MORAL & ETHIC waters by the 13 EU leading nations by throwing them expensive life jackets- would reveal even more interesting facts!
If one looks at Romania’s 21.7 mio people:
it contributes 1.11% to the EU budget, allocated 14 voting “weights”, (similar the Netherlands 13), GDP growth 1.4%, net “receipts” (minus) – € 1,320 mio!
Germany, France, UK & Italy all have a similar number of 29 voting weights in the EC. One can further conclude- that generally, the 15 EU laggards achieved a higher GDP growth than the 13 payer Members- mainly to the latter detriment- or their generosity & willingness to re-balance (as per EU’s mission) the backwardness / inequalities of the 15 within the 28.
Once the UK left, and even if not- a “re balancing” or DEEP reform on several fronts within EU (allocations) becomes imperative. No more business as usual of the “establishment”- refer to the US D.Trump r-evolution!
Specifically Germany, as the financially strongest, but dumbest, needs to be cut down to size- to remind them of their ONLY 29 voting weights & to get used to consult with the other Members “nicely” before blundering AGAIN!
Tarquin, below is to confirm your figure with a forward looking projection of UK net contributions 2016-2021- in “billion British pounds”- not Euros! (Sounds high-eh?) Stats must be carefully read! “Not to be sniffed at- except by the “entitlement-ists!”
http://www.statista.com/statistics/316964/net-contributions-to-eu-budget-by-united-kingdom-uk-to-eu-european-union/
@EU Reform- Proactive
Thank you mein Austrian freund?
……………& if true, it has to remain a global secrete- strictly confidential & “geheim”!
Yes, net contributor with £12 billion foreign aid to some of the most corrupt countries in the world – Pakistan, Ethiopia, India, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, or “basket cases” like you would term them… Do you dare to say the same things about those “beggar” nations, like you do about Romania, Bulgaria, or Poland? Your arrogance has no limits! You are only attacking those who are defenseless and you think it makes you stronger? No, quite the opposite. This is just the illusion of the bully!
Hi Maia! Single UK commentators or the UK nation do not need my (neutral) support, since they have proven throughout history a unique ability to persevere, prosper & lead.
I only respond as an addendum to “His Honorable Limbidis’s” bluster and refer you to my remark about foreign aid in my above reply to you.
Maia, I think you will actually find that more people in the UK object to our excessive foreign aid budget than to the EU net contributions..but this is an EU forum so its generally better to stay on topic
I’m on the leave side, subject to convincing arguments the other way.
I don’t see the EU willing to undertake reform which is already badly needed, as admitted by many of its own politicians and a good number of “remain” campaigners. And it still. wants to expand, reducing whatever influence Britain. might have, as one of 28, 29, 30 countries.
And “in” but as a somewhat detached troublemaker, I don’t think we’d be looking at oodles of goodwill. More like whatever “payback” could be lined up, since the leave option had now been closed down.
in England we have not enough jobs,no schools,no houses.its 100% more Christian. ie church of England and roman catholic and happy with each others religion. not like the Asians squabbling all the time and hard to live with it suicidal England would never be the same again and a disaster will follow without a doubt its already proven.
Perhaps someone can help answer a question or two for me? Much of the debate it seems, is centred around immigration. If we start with non EU immigrants. I am of the understanding that Westminster currently decides the criteria for entry or not? If that’s true (and it may not be, hence the question) then in/out does not affect non EU citizens.
A second question about EU citizens who currently have freedom to enter the UK. I saw that even UKIP are saying that they would allow immigrants in to cover skills and job shortages. There are stats that show most EU immigrants do in fact find work and that most find it in low paid jobs in which they have an entitlement to in-work benefits. Whilst this is something Cameron is trying to reduce with his pre-referendum talks, I’m wondering who we would get to carry out these low paid tasks? Wouldn’t even UKIP allow them in as they are effectively filling a void in the jobs market?
All in all then, apart from the principle of who controls our borders (still very important I know), would it be fair to say that the actual numbers wouldn’t change if we voted out?
Finally if all the above is true then shouldn’t we be debating something other than immigration which is something of a red herring?
It seems to me that the UK pays Billions more into the EU than any other country
and recieves far less from the EU. Europe are absolutely desperate to keep the
UK in the EU and there is a lot of scaremongering,spin and bullying to this aim!
Immigration is running out of control an there are too many people coming into the
UK putting more strain on services such as the NHS etc. All we hear as well is that
we are living longer and therefore the more the people the longer we have to work
to get a pension and some forecasts predict the young today may have to work until
they are 80! As for security we are an Island and therefore controlling our borders should be far easier than any country in Europe. Therefore I will be voting OUT.
How much does UK receive in return of its £12 billion foreign aid to some of the world’s poorest and most corrupt nations? Immigration is not only from EU, in fact it is larger from outside the EU! These migrants are surely putting more strain on NHS, but everyone seems to be transfixed on European nationals, for some unknown reason, as if they are the only foreigners in the country, causing all the problems you are facing! The majority of them come with ready job offers in spheres which are already in shortage of domestic workers. For example, these are 85% of Bulgarian and Romanian arrivals, according to the ONS and around 60% of other EU migrants. Immigration from EU is already regulating itself, it is the non-EU one that is out of control, especially illegal immigration! Wake up!
In reply to “Yasmine”, your ignorance knows no bounds, the only thing you got right is that I am over 55 – this means I have had a lot more life experience than you and have lived in this country before the EU slithered in under the guise of the EEC. We didn’t give consent for our laws to be made by Brussels,the European Commission, which is unelected, has the monopoly of proposing all EU legislation which it does in secret. It also has the power to issue regulations which are automatically binding in all member states. If this information had been available to the British people in 1975, we wouldn’t be having this debate now. Undoubtedly the vote would have been a resounding NO and we would be like Norway and far better off, we need to get out now!
By withdrawing from the EU, we would make it possible to organise economic and social affairs in this country not by deliberate design from the top down, but more organically and spontaneously. From the bottom up. Instead of common financial service rules, we might instead allow competing exchanges to offer different approaches and see which one works. Rather than a Common Agricultural Policy for millions of farmers, we might, you know, allow millions of farmers to each have their own farm policy for their farm.
Britain’s refusal to be reconciled to being in the EU is not ultimately anything to do with racism, flags or anthems. It’s because we know in our very bones that it is a daft way to run a whole continent. I suspect it is not only the Brits who will soon be demanding the freedom to opt out.
I’m sorry that you don’t understand the British sense of humour, it’s just one more thing that separates us and I would hate to see that squashed by the ever increasing petty laws derived by Brussels.
There is only one way to get the change we need, and that is to vote to go, because all EU history shows that they only really listen to a population when it says No.
Well. I’m off to work now, so no more time to answer your puerile post, In England we say “put that in your pipe and smoke it” but since you won’t understand that, I will say – off you go in your carutza and have a great day :)
As for calling me racist – have you no sense of humour? or are you using translating program to make your statements which is incapable of picking up nuances and tongue in cheek remarks? Since you have attacked me and said I am uneducated, I will tell you now, I’m in BREXIT but not UKIP; I have more letters after my name than I have in it, as does my husband who as I told you before has done a lot of voluntary work in Romania (and other countries). I work along side people from all over the world and have lived and worked in third world countries us, but it doesn’t make me racist either.
We have lost control, even of our fishing rights,
That pretty much covers it.
And when opponents have personal abuse as their selected weapon, well that is just revealing of what sort of position and arguments they have.
The character of the EU? The bullying of the Irish voters over the Lisbon treaty was enough of an example : “You’ve voted no? OK, now go back and vote again until you give the proper answer.”
You seem to imagine some kind of heaven after Britain supposedly leaves EU! It really sounds like a serious illusion and reminds me of what was initially meant for the new “democracies” in Lybia, Iraq and Afghanistan – peace, stability and prosperity, rule of law… We all know what happened next… I hope in UK there is no hard awakening to the reality, like in those countries… I think that one of the first things to happen, if Britain left the EU, would be for Scotland to leave the UK. Another real possibility is for the British pound to lose its value due to the lack of predictability of economic conditions after the exit (we might even see that before the referendum). I think the mistake of Britain is that it does not want to work together with its European partners to solve problems… You think you know more than everyone else, yet do not know the future – what will actually happen? There is no government action plan that covers all eventualities… It just seems a step that is not well thought of, simply an emotional spur, rather than a rational and deep understanding that leaving is the best way. God help you!
I have no intention to take emotional sides over the 2nd “Battle of Britain”- as an “UK outsider” being another EU contributor- except to show deep understanding for all who love their sovereignty and proudly respect their ancestors achievements.
In a spirit of tolerance, please explain what drives other EU members (specifically the 15 recipients) to display such overly concern and “democratic intolerance” hell bent to prescribe to others? Is that EU doctrine?
To Maia Alexandrova
“You seem to imagine some kind of heaven after Britain supposedly leaves EU!”
No. I envisage a messy and lively few years. But I’ve been thinking long tern as well as assessing the current situation.
The pound losing value is double-edged: it helps exporters and restrains imports for a start!
(remember, the USA has for ages accused China of keeping its currency deliberately low-valued to give it an economic *advantage*) .
“I think the mistake of Britain is that it does not want to work together with its European partners to solve problems…”
The EU has shown remarkably little desire or ability to solve its varied problems.
If it won’t reform… better away from it.
“, simply an emotional spur, rather than a rational and deep understanding that leaving is the best way. ”
Sorry, I don’t do emotions much, so yes my call of “leave” is not based on them, or on xenophobia, or on nostalgia.
Scotland will not definitely leave the UK, lets be clear on that
Firstly, they may not get public opinion for another “once in a generation” referendum on independence and even if they do the result may be the same as last time
The SNP is promoting the idea that there is an overwhelming desire from Scottish people to stay in the EU and to be forced out is an excuse for another independence referendum. What is being conveniently ignored is that there is quite a large percentage of Scots who also want out of the EU…. the EU killed off the fishing industry and decimated shipbuilding with its draconian rules on contracts. Added to that they have a deep seated hate of the Tories so the more Cameron pushes for staying in the EU the more Scots will vote for the opposite
Scotland leaving the UK is just more scaremongering by those who haven’t a clue
@Paul X.
Good point.
Furthermore, if Scotland votes to leave the UK then, this time non-British EU types will not be allowed to vote and thus the ‘stay-in’ campaign will be buoyed by the ‘stay-out’ campaign therefore losing c10% of their electorate.
Maia, no one knows what the future holds.. but we do know that if we had listened to Enoch Powell in 1968, we wouldn’t be in this mess. Comparing the UK to Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan is simply ludicrous
Tony Blair thinks we should remain. He also thought we should invade Iraq.
It’s not deep or solid logic, but whatever Tony Blair wants, my first instinct is to press for the opposite.
Leave!
Putin thinks you should leave.
The US says you should stay.
/argument
The boss of UK pubs group JD Wetherspoon has backed the campaign for Britain to leave the European Union.
Syed Kamall, Britain’s most senior Conservative MEP has said he will vote for the UK to leave the European Union at the 23 June referendum.
That doesn’t mean I think that settles the argument about which way to vote.
But with other names in business and politics it should settle the proposition seen here that a “leave” vote is a blindingly obvious wrong move only being adopted by those ignorant, racist or nostalgic.
Vote “leave”
We DEFINITELY NEED OUT OF THE CORRUPT EU NOW so that the billions of pounds thrown away to the eu and foreign aid countries can go towards URGENT ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENTS that THIS COUNTRY and OUR PEOPLE are in NEED of plus we NEVER had the VAST AMOUNT of problems caused before all the conniving government traitors signed in to the corrupt EU. So we DEFINITELY and DESPERETLY NEED OUT NOW
‘Wonderif’ you would want to invest in a business called the ‘EU’ .
Here are the conditions:
The management are generally considered undemocratic (and sometimes have been electorally sacked) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union
The finances have not been signed off as true and correct for nearly 17yrs and only signed lately with disregard to the issues. (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110202/debtext/110202-0004.htm)
The fact that middle management (an ex UK P.M.?) can fire whistleblowers who point out the vulnerability of their accounts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marta_Andreasen
One director can, for the sake of vanity, demand that once a month a week of meetings have to be held in their country at the cost of millions. ( the Strasbourg circus) See section ‘European Parliament’ at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_seats_of_the_European_Union#Oneseat_campaign
The ‘EU’ company demands that to trade with them you need to pay them to sell your products on their shelves.
Would you invest?
That’s an interesting point of view- but the EU already exists. The wonderif perspective is to wonder whether leaving will hand economic difficulties to our kids. What’s the plan, how would we negotiate our way through, the EU would hold most of the cards, what are the risks of leaving? The self determination argument stacks up – but I’m far from convinced from all other angles. Convince me.
Coming from the EU skeptic country of Denmark, I watch in horror as UK prepares for the referendum of June 23th. Though I sympathies with the UK and support Cameron’s demands, I fear that the ongoing refugee crisis will see the UK leave the EU.
With her population of 60 million, the UK represents not just the British skeptics but all the skeptics of the 28 member states. Without Britain in the EU, the remaining “officially” skeptic countries, countries with opt outs clauses who are not fully member of the EU, will only account for 15 million out the EU’s 500 million.
I fear that without the UK in the EU, smaller EU skeptic countries will be forced to integrate further.
I beg the UK to stay in the EU. Stay to help preserve the skeptic voices the EU can otherwise ignore. Stay to influence EU legislation in a more fair direction. Please, please stay.
But maybe if we leave, the other skeptics will be able to raise their case in their individual countries far more effectively.
Skeptics and loyalists (I can’t see many actual enthusiasts for the EU as it is) speak of the need for major reform.
I don’t think there’s enough will for reform, and change of objective, to deliver enough of it to properly allay the skeptics’ reasons for being skeptical.
“I fear that without the UK in the EU, smaller EU skeptic countries will be forced to integrate further.”
Yes, “ever closer union” is there as a formerly unstated (it wasn’t mentioned in the UK in the 1975 referendum) aim and goal.
“Stay to influence EU legislation in a more fair direction.”
I think that’s been tried. With an EU of 6 or 12 countries it might have been manageable. With 28 (or 29, or 30…) I don’t see the hope left in that route.
If Britain can show it can be done, then the populations of “skeptical countries”
should work towards demanding their own referendums, boosted by an example.
Some European politicians fear a domino effect: they know several countries with populations far more disenchanted with the EU than the respective country’s leaders are admitting.
The problem now is Nina if the UK, as the most euro-sceptic country around votes to stay in, the EU will see this as a green light to forge ahead with all its federalist might. The EU needs a good kick up the @rse to bring its elitist, blinkered, over-paid and over-fed bureaucrats back to reality and the only way to do that is with a UK out vote
I’m sorry Nina, but you just made me even more determined to leave the EU. The UK cannot hold the EU together – it has failed massively and the UK needs to walk away and let the rest of Europe sort themselves out.
George Osborne in the budget speech today,
“Britain will be stronger, safer and better off inside a reformed European Union.”
And I’d be better off with a million pounds in the bank.
*** We don’t have a reformed European Union and we’re not likely to get one.***
In which case any statement about the best choice given a European union that doesn’t actually exist is utterly irrelevant. How about the best choice given the EU that actually exists, but (it seems almost a universal consent) badly needs major reform?
Bravo! Good to see I’m not the only one to see through his very poor speech! The sooner we are OUT the better!
We got it again today with Corbyn: unable to avoid admitting in his “remain” speech how much the EU needs reform. And desperately overoptimistic on the chances of getting it.
To stay in the “hope” that things will get better with an EU that even its supporters don’t like very much, now that IS taking a risk.
@ Chris & Lisa
I have posted this link before but it is worth repeating, this is the content of a “vote yes” propaganda leaflet given out in the run up to the UK’s 1975 referendum on the EEC
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm
Here are one or two interesting quotes
“We explain why the Government, after long, hard negotiations, are recommending to the British people that we should remain a member of the European Community”
“We confidently believe that these better terms can give Britain a New Deal in Europe”.
All sounds very familiar doesn’t it……..
Yes, familiar, but also a smoke and mirrors job,(again) leaving things out that might not help the cause.
“The common market” is mentioned, but not “ever closer union.”
Not a thing about how much of the British fishing industry other European countries will demand a share of.
But better than now: sitting round a table with nine other countries is one thing, in terms of making a difference.and pushing through reform.
Sitting round a table with twenty-seven other countries and trying to make a difference is something else entirely.
I caught another couple of comments from “remain” people yesterday with “… although it needs much reform… ” (or words to that effect) in their arguments.
If that’s what they can’t avoid admitting, it has to be at least that bad.
I agree, bit of a cliche but this is “not what we signed up for” I’m old enough to have voted in 1975 but I voted NO, even then I suspected that it would grow like some Monster from the deep and crush our traditions, culture and ability to have self government. The United States of Europe was something I didn’t want then and certainly don’t want now. I hard a newsreader say a few nights ago that there had been a terrorist alert in “the capital” she was talking about Europe – it shocked me.
As someone who regularly attends board meetings I can say categorically that 9 round the table is difficult but 27 all wanting different things and each out for what they can, get spells disaster, and that’s what the EU has become – each new country that joins wants the same as those already in the EU but most are unlikely to be able to pay their way, putting an even bigger burden on the UK and giving more power to Brussels.
We keep being told we can’t survive outside of the EU – look at Norway (a country I know very well), the population is smaller than that of London, but they trade quite happily, have a good standard of living, a great health service,good welfare system, great education etc., but even though my son has lived there 20 years and I have two grandchildren who are Norwegian Nationals I can’t just decide to go and live there. Their immigration policy allows for asylum seekers and they take their fair share of refugees, but THEY decide, not some faceless bureaucrats in Brussels.
Reform is not going to happen, therefore there is only one way for us to go and that’s OUT!
Ja eg har livet i Norge også. It’s a great, highly affluent country with a massive sovereign wealth fund derived from its oil resources. Evenso in order to maintain their access to the EEA and avoid the penalties of the common tarrif they have accepted EU trade and immigration rules – you or I could move there tomorrow. Unlike the UK they have no opportunity to influence their implementation. Wouldn’t the same happen to us?
Democracy, what democracy?
A couple of years ago everyone living in the EU was told that the maximum allowable power of domestic vacuum cleaners was to be restricted to 1200 Watts or some such arbitrary value. The actual level of the restriction is irrelevant; but the absence of democracy in the way it was introduced is absolute. Ever since this dictat was issued, efforts have been made to discover the identity of the individual responsible for signing it off; i.e. the person who decided it should become law. However, despite numerous attempts it has not been possible to discover the identity of the politician concerned, thereby precluding any possibilty of moving on to the ultimate quest – establishing the democratic process by which the individual in question can be retained or removed from office by a satisfied or disgruntled electorate.
Perhaps some clever politician could explain to the public how this organisation manages to maintain the anonimity of its personnel whilst purporting to operate as a democracy.
“the individual responsible for signing it off”
Perhaps you think we’re in Stalinist Russia (EUSSR, anyone?) – we’re not. There is no individual “responsible for signing it off”. And he or she can’t be found, huh? Blimey. If this is how it works where you live, I hope you’re not in the EU. Or on the way out at the very least.
If the EU is truly democratic it would be possible for the electorate to remove any errant politicians via the ballot box, but this could prove tricky if the individual in question cannot be identified.
Nice reply, personally I can’t wait to leave the EU
Bon Voyage
.
Everyone should leave the pointless EU.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/646796/Dutch-voters-in-out-EU-referendum-Brexit-contagion-fears-Brussels-Jean-Claude-Juncker
Leave it
Let leave and let die!
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/commission-plans-retaliation-in-the-event-of-a-brexit/
Leave
LEAVE, it will be good for us … i’m sure they won’t -.-
I’m sorry for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but England has (and wants) TOO MANY advantages…
It’s enough!
Aftre left the EU, UK probably will disintegrate…
Leave.
Leave.
Well nobody knows, let we see if is better or not
Well nobody knows, let we see if is better or not
Just let them vote on it. Once that is concluded, they will have picked a path for themselves, one they cannot back out of. However, should they decide to stay, this whole game of ambiguity has to end – they’re either in our out, not in between. Also, I really hope that if they leave, the European Commission negotiates harsh terms.
Again thise question? The UK should leave, and my nation and any with a government that cares about it’s own people…
For their sake they should leave…The EU as it’s now can not survive.
.
There are three claimed benefits made by EU fanatics for their EU:
1. The Euro – in reality a complete disaster for most Nations in it.
2. Schengen – In reality a complete disaster for all Nations in it.
3. Security – In reality a complete disaster for every Nations in it.
Would you vote to join or stay in such a disaster zone ?
http://www.dw.com/en/german-state-elections-success-for-right-wing-afd-losses-for-merkels-cdu/a-19113604
Their decision!
leave
Considering that the European so called leaders are inserting large amount of terror groups in Europe with their delusional view of the world, all countries should brake apart from the UE not just the Uk, otherwise if Europe would not be runned by the likes of the current insane aristocracy they should try to stay, as the EU was a beautiful project, but it was ruined by the Angela Merkel and the rest of the bought by Saudi Arabia pawns.
Stay
.
If you were asked if you wanted to join a union that had a migrant crisis, a currency crisis, a democratic deficit crisis & a terrorist crisis would you vote ‘IN’ ?
Then why would we vote to stay ‘IN’ ?
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-poll-idUKKCN0WZ0T5
Leave!
I ,m so so so sad cause we can not stand our opinion against the destroyers of EU . :( The union is one of the best ideas for centuries .
A mutually supportive and peaceful Europe is a good idea.
A free-trade area was a good idea.
But the EU, the political entity, has grown into something else, very different to what it was sold to the British public in 1975.
It has grown so fast that it is now unstable and probably also unsustainable.
And it still aims at growth, not consolidation and stability.
(add Turkey? Add Ukraine? It had to lie to itself to add Greece, but that it did.)
Time to leave in an orderly manner before it gets messy.
The EU is a social institution which makes all of us less free. It takes away our individual and national freedoms, liberties and democracy. Why are decisions about farming, fishing, weekly bin collections, and even Child seats being mandatory; imposed on us by commissioners and bureaucrats from Brussels?
Can’t our parliament make policy’s for these areas? Or local government even? It doesn’t matter whether their laws are good or bad, our freedom to hire and fire the people who make them is.
This union is only going to get closer as we inevitably hand over more power to the EU. We all become less free. The countries of Europe start to lose their unique character.
It is important for us, the whole of Europe and for freedom that this political union ends and we have a free trade agreement with the EU.
Vote Leave.
We should stay.
For what reason?
There are risks both ways: that area of “unknown” on both sides.
But the dire present and future state of the EU is clear. Even its supporters regularly mention how it needs reform… which it has repeatedly shown that it can’t do. There are not enough common interests with 28 countries (and more planned) whose aims and needs are simply too diverse.
This may be the last chance we get, So get out while we still can and before the EU has eroded everything the UK used to stand for.
We don’t want a closer union with the EU we want our country back. We didn’t fight two world wars for our freedom just to hand it over to the EU without a fight.
James, I couldn’t agree more, but with Cameron’s leaflet, the IMF and Obama all scaremongering, I fear the IN Campaign will win.
Cameron’s leaflet (using our money) got 100,000+ protest votes in almost record time on the government petition site, and is now going to be debated in Parliament as a result. (Blood on the carpet there, methinks) It has also prompted a Midlands business group to offer up to £5 million for a “leave” leaflet as a riposte. Keep fighting, and donating if you can, for LEAVE.
Chris Brown, who said there will be a debate in parliament? There’s no guarantee of that now or before the referendum, I haven’t given up, I just want the young people out there to hear both sides of the story, I really hope the LEAVE leaflet happens, I truly do!
I quote from the email I received.
“Dear Chris Brown,
Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “STOP CAMERON spending British taxpayers’ money on Pro-EU Referendum leaflets”.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762
The debate is scheduled for 9 May 2016.
Once the debate has happened, we’ll email you a video and transcript.
Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament”
As a follow-up, in advance of the debate I’m going to prime my MP (who is already a “Leave” supporter) with my views on the matter.
Brilliant – thank you :)
That’s now over 200,000 who have objected by signing the petition.
One might almost be reduced to thanking Mr Cameron, for making so many people angry!
Today we had the same as seen so often: The Labour leader Mr Corbyn was unable to avoid admitting in his “remain” speech how much the EU needs reform. While being desperately overoptimistic (on past record) on the chances of getting it.
To make the “leave” or “remain ” choice on a EU that “might be, someday” is to take a most definite risk for the “remain” camp. They are quite likely not to get their dream, their fantasy.
Even its “supporters” don’t much like how it is now, and we should stay????
If we leave VAT should finish , but can you see them losing 110billion just because this it will be worked that we stay in .
I don’t feel I can trust ANY politician to give me the real facts on either staying in the EU or leaving. I can’t help feeling that whatever the electorate decide the vote will be rigged.
We always have and always will trade with Europe but we should not have to do as some one who doesn’t live here tells us to. If we stay in Europe, as all of Europe wants us to, as we are one of the few contributing millions and not taking, we will be far worse off. We will definitely be told to take hundreds of thousands of immigrants we don’t want or need who will take your houses, fill your schools and use your hospitals even though they have not contributed anything. Naturally we will be expected to change our Country to suit them, as we are continually doing already because the Government hasn’t got any balls to tell them to go back if they don’t like it here.
Unlike the Australian PM well if you don’t like it go back to where you came from
Good on yer blue!
Since the starting gun on the 15th April, 2016 the actions of the remain side has really stepped up a notch on their campaign of fear. The Chancellor talks about what predictions through variations and probabilities the state of the economy will look like in 2030. Well Mr Osbourne let me tell you if after years of austerity, no wage rises, overcrowded hospitals, overcrowded schools, doctors surgeries, overcrowded roads you really think you sound convincing then you are sadly mistaken. The massive influx of migration has placed a massive strain on services resulting in a less cohesive and dysfunctional society that you are expecting us to live in. After living in a country that I loved and now find myself in a country I barely recognise a brexit looks really attractive and I will be voting out.
Could’nt agree with you more, absolutly RIGHT!
This is the best definition of the E.U. that I have ever seen, and I wish I had written it!, but no, its from a gentleman named Charles Moore. in the English Daily Telegraph in his Notebook column. I Quote:-
“If there is one thing the EU is good at, it is providing career opportunities, summit meetings, conference circuits and pensions for administrative and political elites. Its fiercer critics say it is a dictatorship. They are wrong; if it were, its evil would be in plain view and we could get rid of it by getting rid of the dictator. No, the EU is an oligarchy – a form of permanent supranational government by a relatively small mutual support group of highly educated people which has worked out how to stay in power without the boring task of submitting itself to general elections.”
Is this the state with wish you wish to live with? It is a fact that bureaucracy only gets larger and the individual smaller and where the individual expression of freedom decreases. As history has taught us and the people of Europe have suffered more than the United Kingdom has in many ways. Freedom is not ‘snatched away’ but gradually eroded until the situation becomes irreversible, only then do nations protest, usually too late. Soon England will have a chance to change itself, and with luck change the EU. Make this undemocratic, monolithic, bureaucratic structure called the EU, look at itself and also change. People who wish to stay in the EU talk of changing it from within. Nonsense, how can you change an unelected, unrepresentative. elite whose very position is based on positions of absolute power, remember up at the top level THERE IS NO VETO!
Check out the organisational structure please.
Regarding our trade position with the rest of the world and the EU it is true that much needs to be debated and organised. However I seem to remember that in my school books many years ago 50% of the world was coloured pink, i.e. the British Empire. Our ports were full of ships with big ‘flappy’ things called sails which covered the world in search of markets. Yes,Yes, things have changed!, I agree but to suggest that the UK would be lost and unable to ‘make her way’ is ludicrous. The EU buys more from us than we from them, and to suggest that EU business would stop is also short sighted. I have never met a businessman who is not prepared to make money when and where its possible!! Yes it will take time, but the world has consistently underrated the UK in the past and the ‘stay in crowd’ with the doomsayers of the past should be consigned to history, as I hope they will be.
Regards Barrie Stubbs
The E.U. is failing fast and out of control. Our country is no longer ruled by the British people, it’s time to get out now, if it’s not already too late, perhaps we just might be able to pull the country from the brink of disaster, it’s time to take back control. Of course the fat cats in politics wan’t us to stay in, they wan’t an easy ride, they know it won’t be easy to sort out the mess they’ve got us into, they don’t live in our world. Mark my words, what ever the cost, the situation will get far worse if we stay in the E.U. We might be the first to leave but, we won’t be the last.
ASK YOURSELF THESE QUESTIONS.
Did the Government keep their promise to reduce
Immigration?
Is our N.H.S. service better or worse now?
Do you have to wait longer if you visit A&E?
Do you have to wait longer for a doctor appointment?
Are our roads and public transport more congested?
Is the housing situation better or worse now?
Can you get your child into a school of your choice
easily?
Do you feel safer on the streets now?
Do you trust politicians more or less now?
And finally, when Cameron said we would leave the E.U. if he didn’t get a good deal for Britain in his negotiations and we would be alright, why now is he all DOOM & GLOOM if we vote to leave.
VOTE TO LEAVE!!!
Cameron has been inconsistent, Corbyn has been drastically inconsistent.
They are almost viewing the voters the way some EU leaders have *said* that they view them: an inconvenience to be ignored wherever possible.
This is our one and only chance. Let’s get out.
I agree Vote Leave
The EU is unstable now, and yet.still wants to expand, adding more countries which are a poor match economically for NW Europe, and that come with their own internal and external political strifes.
This, we should stay with?
George Soros: “Europe Is On The Verge Of Collapse”
“When it becomes serious, you have to lie.”
― Jean-Claude Juncker
“I am for joining a free trade zone. The European Union is not such zone, but a zone of raging bureaucracy”
― Janusz Korwin-Mikke
Professor Giacomo Vaciago of Milan’s Catholic University: “It’s clear that the euro has virtually failed over the last ten years, even if you are not supposed to say that.”
We all know that Boris Johnson’s remarks sometimes are at best somewhat controversial but in all honesty I can’t believe his remarks about Obama were anything but deliberate. The fight to leave the E.U. will be hard enough without Boris damaging the vote to leave campaign, which he has certainly done. I can’t believe that Boris who is suppose be intelligent could be so stupid. So, I put to you, that Boris is working for Cameron, NOT US!
I vote Andrea Leadsom as our next PM!
What are the risks of starting in the European union? Many both economic and political? What was the British economy, like before we joined the European union was it economic growth higher than being in the union? The only thing, I have been hearing is politicians, economics experts and business leaders. Don’t the British people have a said in the issues concerning our future?The issues which are not the mentioned is housing crisis and illegal migration .Over burdened public services transport, NHS trust and educational needs. Universities cost is ever increasing from £1500-£9000 .British brain drain because of low income earning, high cost of living in London and south East England. There are many issues we need to consider before voting. United Kingdom is underdeveloped in other regions like North West, North central, Midlands and Scotland etc. We can’t be in the European union and develop, with laws and regulations from does who are only interested in what UK contribute Yearly and monthly. The money meant to develop UK industry, NHS trust, transport in other regions like Manchester, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Leeds, Glasgow etc are wasted on unprofitable European union projects. We need power and freedom to make trade deals more economical with other countries like India, China, Iran, Canada, Australia, USA and Africa. Which to many British citizens is impossible within the union. Lastly the inflow of people from Syria Africa Afghanistan and Iraq. Both highly dangerous illegal criminals roming freely. Our borders are not safe
We don’t need a European Union. We traded with Europe quite happily before the 1970’s with no EU regulation, no EU Commissioners and no EU flag. We became Great Britain through doing so. A vote to remain is a vote for European domination. We don’t need it, we don’t want it. We must leave the EU and become our own country once again.
The issues of migration crisis we are experienced, since the Iraqi and Syria war European union has not been handling the matter properly .Which has lead to high high waves into Europe, the calais crisis in France, Belgium Airport attack and the Paris killing. Security is not talk about, Ukraine and Russia which lead to an Netherlands airplane short down. Radicalism of Young people, travelling to Syria from Europe. Returning to cause havoc on innocent people. We don’t have control over our borders, do we? Housing crisis in London, where by Russian, Italian and Arab billionaires etc buy properties in choicest areas causing houses prices to go up ,more than 150%British laws are weak to deal with sensitive matters
You aint seen nothing yet! Wait til Turkey and Albania join Europe!
By the grace of God. We have left the European marriage. I am praying because, I believe in prayer. British government and politicians know the truth, but are not willing to tell British people the sound realities. President of Syria Ahsad said European countries, should expect thousands more refgues. American always push British politicians to react with out thinking. Thanks to Brother Obama, leaving American problems like Guns control, drugs crime, children taking Parents gun and killing people. Brother Obama now advising David Cameron and Britain, to start in unprofitable marriage of European union. When USA, has health care crisis. Is America willing to share it Sovereignty with any country? Is any country willing to be wasting £7 Billions yearly on unstable and unrealistic project called EU. ?We need money for housing, health, disabled people, single parents, homeless children etc. We need more powerful laws to control our borders .Because British people can’t decide what they want, other people, will be making decisions for us. Enough of fear tratic and bullying. Australia is not under any circumstances like us and are doing well. China and Japan are other examples. Remember we were one of the greatest Empires in the world, both economically, military and geographically.
We will be poorer.
To Sheffield
“We will be poorer”
Well that’s not settled: economists are taking different views (in today’s news)
But I’m not taking that as a main reason for wanting to LEAVE anyway.
More the way the EU structures are increasingly ignoring EU citizens, and the way grand expansionist ideas are still being flowed at the expense of economic stability. I suggest that the higher echelons of the EU are locked in groupthink, and that can be very .dangerous.
The major problem is the mismanagement of resources and wrong policies formulated by the Conservative party. The British government can only be responsible and accountable when will are free to fomulate, our laws control our borders and resources. People and British public will see the lies, which the British politicians are telling us . European union is covering our leaders wrong misconceptions and policies. About the the gap between the rich and poor, it’s still boils down to the European union and Westminster, forgein are given assess to buy up major industries,politicians, rich people are running to tax havens in Romania, Turkey, Cezh Republic and Portugal etc. The Panama issue is there, why because British politicians and rich people have places to hide under European union lax laws
As long as we are in the European union there no way, as a Country we can have 100%, to pay attention to what matters. As a saying of my father, you can have 5 wives and take care of you all, you children and wife properly. We have our own sensitive and pressing problematic issues. Which need urgent attention, nurses and NHS trust workers in the BBC ,can’t get a family home in London on a £30000 per year. Benefits are been collected by European citizens coming from the EU. North West, North central, Midlands and Scotland with Northern Ireland is less developed, with all the European union funds. Our markets are flooded with low quality products from Europe, pressure on overstretched public services. We can follow Norway, Sweden etc Someone said in 1970, before joined the European union, we were better off. We have human resources we can develop, form trade agreement with other countries. Britain can invest in African market and less developed countries, cry for development. We have talented people who we can exchange with other countries, expertise in many ways. We can export British made goods.
If it were that easy we would be doing it already. We will be poorer.
Chris – its Ok to sacrifice wealth and wellbeing for principle as an individual – but not on behalf of others. I understand that self determination is important but so are public services.
Sheffield, I think (It’s got to be a bet, no-one knows for sure) we will in the long term be better off out, not just on idealism, from more freedom to be flexible on policies than if tied to EU, where “one size fits all” legislation is bad enough now, but will be worse with the addition of more eastern European countries, as intended. And that’s assuming the EU is not already heading for fracture. I suspect that there is a real chance that it is (see comments by George Soros and others). Better to have been out in an organised manner earlier, if that is a real possibility. Even those speaking in favour of staying with the EU keep mentioning how much it needs reform, and yet its track record of that is not good, to put it extremely mildly.
Should I vote to stay with this hypothetical “reformed EU” when that is very unlikely to happen?
We’re already managing youth unemployment better than most of the EU.
That’s a social service cost implication
We’d like better control on immigration
Definitely a social service cost.implication.
I think instability is likely either way, but for the long term a better economy outside the EU seems, to me, more probable.
But I’m still reading and listening.
(Not to those who think that I must be a racist little Englander for wanting to vote leave: they have blown their case, such as it was!)
It’s good to hear a calm voice!
Sounds like ideology and hypotheticals to me Chris. The Eu exists a post leave Uk does not. Stand fight for whats right and fix it.
Sheffield, I don’t think it is fixable. The resistance to reform is clear, and the bias of the voting systems towards the smaller members also.
Cameron claiming to have sought and obtained “reform” is a nonsense. He gained concessions (minor) from the EU: not enough to matter to UK, but enough to make the UK unpopular with the rest of the EU(“always whining for special treatment”) if the vote is to stay with the EU.
“A group of eight influential economists have thrown their support behind the Leave campaign in the UK’s referendum on EU membership.”
“EU referendum: 110 bosses say City will ‘thrive’ outside EU”
And yes, there’s news and headlines the other way, too.
It’s not a settled projection whichever way, even for experts.
And I think the EU has gone wrong in character, practice and ambition.
“Yes, Irish people, you can have a vote, as long as you vote the right way. If you don’t, you’ll just have to vote again” (On Lisbon Treaty, when more than one other country avoided having a referendum, as it was clear it would have been rejected by the electorate). Look for EU leaders wanting to ignore the EU populace… That wasn’t a one-off.
United Kingdom needs to be in total control of its Destiny. We can exchange highly qualified skilled workforce with other countries in the European union. We can set up trade agreement with other countries, where British workers can work 2 to 3years in order countries and come back and continue with in the UK. We are currently, if am correct contributing £350million every week to European union. By mathematics that is (£350×356)yearly. In total £127,750,000, 000 billion. Do your own calculations, plus the fines let’s say we are contributing £200billion. If we are investing that sum, am not an economist expect in the UK and trade, transport, schools, colleges, universities, housing, and NHS trust yearly. Another area is our leaders will be more effective, accountable and responsibile. We waste Billions yearly on unstable and unrealistic policy, like Forigen Aid, war, fines .Tax evasion by weak European laws. We needs economic immigrants not non economic immigrants who are liabilities on the tax payers and systems. We need power to control our borders. Question to ask does campaign for remain, is why hasn’t European union be able to developed countries like Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Moldova, Serbia, Cezh Republic etc. Why is it that every one wants to come to UK? What is the European union doing about security? Why are there still economic division between east European countries and West European countries, with all the money received and contributed? Why is terrorism on the raise in Europe?Ukraine crisis did the European union handle it properly? Are we Britain save in the European union with high raise of terrorism and Radicalism? What cost are we paying to start in the European union, is it profitable or too are disadvantaged? We should look at the options, we British are not been racists or sentiment. The future of unborn generations lies, universities the choice we make today.
Your maths is wrong – we will be poorer.
For more information whether starting in European union is profitable. People should browse the following and do careful consideration and calculations. How much is it costing UK to start in the European union? Secondly how much has uk payed European union since 1973. .?
We will be poorer
Sheffield show us YOUR math then!
Do you think you think that you live in a democracy?
The definition of a democracy is:-
“a system of government in which all the people of a state or polity … are involved in making decisions about its affairs, typically by voting to elect representatives to a parliament or similar assembly”
SO, NO YOU DON’T!
Let’s stop looking at facts born out of supposition and opinions, and at worst those who have vested interest.
O.K. the first statement is only a projection.
The number of people living in Britain is projected to rise from 64.6 million in mid-2014 to 74.3 million in 2039, that’s roughly 500,000 a year.
NOW THE FACTS.
The current scale of migration to the UK, 330,000 a year, of which roughly half is from the EU, is completely unsustainable.
As a result of this mass immigration our population is projected to rise by half a million every year – the equivalent of a city the size of Liverpool – for as long as immigration is permitted on the present scale.
England is already twice as crowded as Germany and 3.5 times as crowded as France.
The additional population growth makes congestion worse and adds to the pressures on public services. This comes at a time when public spending is being reduced.
One in four children born in England and Wales is to a foreign born mother. The rise in the number of births has put pressure on NHS maternity services.
It has also led to a shortage of school places. 60% of local authorities will have a shortage of primary school places by 2018.
The UK has a serious housing crisis. Mass immigration is the main reason for the additional demand. We must build a new home every six minutes for the next 20 years to accommodate the additional demand for housing from new migrants.
It’s impossible to “build our way out” of this situation.
Whatever the arguments for staying the E.U. only ONE thing is CERTAIN, it’s the WRONG choice.
British Government largest fears hasn’t started, let Turkey join the European union then you will no the difference between over population and overcrowding. Our National sovereignty is under threat, our borders are loosely open to all manners of people, both llegal and illegal people. The circumstances on ground is not sentiment or being self centre. It’s realities of principles, can the United Kingdom handle up to 300,0000 Migrants yearly for the next 5 years that 1,500,000 people, if the European union orders us to take in as our share of refugees. That’s from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc The Humanitarian crisis looming over Europe, is not a child play. We need to consider before we sell our destiny and birthright to the European union. Britain already have problems and challenges which it’s getting difficult to find solutions. NHS trust is overwhelming, London transport and housing crisis is there, overcrowded school in United Kingdom, High taxes. Absolutely heart breaking when Londoners and young people can’t get on the property ladder. Now some groups of people wants us too continue to waste Billions of taxpayers money in starting in unprofitable marriage. India is closed to the middle east, why can’t they take in refugees, I am even going far, Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Pakistan India Why can’t they people go their?It’s true because of benefits people come to UK.
Given David Cameron’s latest hyperbolic outburst, the need to leave become clearer still. The British “remain” politicians will use every scare tactic that they can muster. Two years ago Cameron said he could be prepared to campaign to leave EU if his negotiations did not go well (they didn’t). Now he is saying leaving the EU is unthinkable on peace and security grounds. One way or the other he is a hypocrite.
What are we to be threatened with next to scare us to stay in the EU?
Alien invasion? Zombies?
Vote remain or your arms will drop off..?
Two years ago Cameron said he could be prepared to campaign to leave EU if his negotiations did not go well (they didn’t).
They did. Once again the UK came out with a series of totally unwarranted and unfair exceptions and special status clauses to their advantage, rather than being told to, well, get stuffed, only with an F, and to just effing go. Which hopefully the UK will do anyway.
“Vote remain or your arms will drop off..?”
Haha, ironic, the whole bunch of exitiots is basically claiming that the UK already lost and arm and a leg and an eye, ‘sovereignty’ and what have you.
Did the E.U.’s peace and security protect Brussels and Paris? It’s NATO that protects us, it’s a pity they can’t protect us from Cameron, if ever a man suffered from constipation it’s him, he’s just full of it!
“It’s NATO that protects us”
Well it didn’t protect Brussels and Paris either, did it. Nor London, for that matter.
Well it would create more jobs in the EU. Just think every country would have to re-introduce Visa’s , Work Permits, Residence permits. Then there would be all the paperwork over re-repatriating Brits in the EU, then the removal of all EU workers from the UK. Advertising their jobs and (most probably) having to re-hire them as locals weren’t available in the first place
IT’S VERY SIMPLE – The UK pays more in than it gets out, our hands are tied in trading, human rights, justice, education, manufacturing, agriculture etc., Take away the ties and we will fly – of course there will be initial wobbles, even an eaglet has to learn to fly when it leaves the nest, but have you ever watched an eagle soar? This country can do that – once the fetters of the EU are removed, be sensible VOTE OUT!
Firstly, the UK does not pay more in that it gets out. The benefits that we reap from being a member of the EU are unparalleled to any organisation in the world and we pay a pittance of what we gain. There is no reason to leave the largest, most prosperous, most closely tied and most economically healthy bloc of nations on earth. Be sensible? stop being so naïve. Leaving the EU will have drastic short run and long run effects on the economy, security and overall wellbeing of our country.
@ Will. “No reason to leave”?
You can’t have been looking very hard.
Democratic deficit, the quotations from many European leaders espousing views and aims not favourable to the UK, the too-rapid expansion which amongst other things has diluted any chance of the UK having influence or getting necessary reforms in place.
(Not surprisingly the new smaller poorer countries have a rather different agenda.)
The financial instability of the Euro zone: Greece is still very much an issue in play, and it isn’t being handled to the benefit of Greece. The increasingly mis-matched economies could quite possibly break the eurozone, and if so this will cost everyone in the EU, not just those in the Eurozone.
“No reason”? Hardly.
When there is too many restrictions and hindrances in form of laws on trade, business development, migrants control, a country is limited to expand its trade opportunities in the world. UK is beneficial in contributing to the European union and Westminster are receiving some peanuts from the EU . We are saying that we don’t have the necessary skills and work force to run our industrial plants, we are being have out by people coming from the European union. I totally disagree because being in the European union, is making our government to be distracted by the European union problems with out finding sound solutions to the crisis facing the British people.The welfare state need reformation and overall possession of our freedom . European can’t be dictating to ours how to live as a nation. We need to leave and seek better pasture from the outside world. I know that it’s not going to be easier, but the freedom of the British people matters much
My comment doesn’t show but suffice to say I concur with Viktor Toks and Chris Brown
Point of correction, European union is unpopular and can’t give the impression of getting the best negotiations for the British people. The British government and politicians with European union apologises should getting tell the British people lies whether we leave now or not one thing, I have 100 %assurance is we are going to leave the EU, not only UK but other countries. The terrorists attacks across Europe has proved that European union is not capable of security measures to protect and safe people who are EU citizens. Does people who died how are there Families going to bear the loss? The Ukraine crisis did the European union handle the crisis in a sensible way where by an Dutch Airlines flying over Eastern Ukraine was shot down more than 150 people died, but children and adults. The TERRORISTS ATTACKS ACROSS EUROPE in Paris, Belgium Airport, etc Britain can not handle the thousands of people coming from the European union. Do we have the facilities.?I am not saying we should leave totally but we can follow Norway, Sweden and Denmark being in Free European zone, where by the European union will have limited powers on British trade, immigration, security, business. An agreement where by we can choose whoever we want totrade with ,whereby British laws will be effective in areas of best interest to the British people. We need a new Britain where our Sovereignty is protected and tarnish, we by how to live, benefits of the people of British people is well protected. We by our young woman and daughter’s will not be molested, rape and a new Britain we will not because strangers in our Fatherland. We want a Britain we by our culture, history, value are reserved and not underrated. That’s the Britain we need! !,!! Long Live Queen
Hyer Victor i agree
Will – Niave? You sound like you swallowed the whole of the IN brigades propaganda, do some REAL Research when you have looked at both sides of the argument from the point of view of other European citizens, you may begin to understand that Europe is nothing without Britain, without us they will fall apart sooner rather than later – if we stay, and sure as hell others leave, the EU will implode and it will cost the UK billions! We cannot go on dividing the wealth of this country to support the poorer nations, we cannot allow Merkel and the European Central Bank to control our wealth and make us less powerful than we are. Everything we know has been eroded by the EU Bureaucrats who are not answerable to us, they were not elected by us, they do not have to listen to us because we can’t remove them. This is not Democracy and this is not what we voted for when we joined the then Common Market, everything else has been thrust upon us, and if we stay, it can only get worse. The problem is that you have educated by Dodgy Dave just enough to believe everything he says, but not enough to ask questions about his real agenda! Go away and come back when you have reached that level of education.
Lisa, I listened to/watched the Parliamentary debate on David Cameron’s taxpayer-funded one-sided leaflet. There wasn’t much defence of it and a lot of demolition of it,.for three hours.
I’ve just been sent the links:
Watch the debate: http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/93a979e7-4c8a-4d3f-89b1-529df4b4cad4
Read the transcript: https://hansard.digiminster.com/commons/2016-05-09/debates/1605098000001/EUReferendumLeaflet
The petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762
Plenty of stuff there to publicise, spread around, but for some reason the BBC appears to have avoided mentioning it.
Try and spell properly first of all. I have not swallowed any propaganda, I have written substantial dissertations on this topic and have spent over half of my life living in EU countries other than the UK broadening my horizons and seeing first hand the benefits of being in the EU. Leaving will result as a trigger and more may leave, the unionism which we have is too valuable for us just to jump ship. The EU has its problems but we’re not solving anything by leaving. Just look at those who want us to leave – Vladmir Putin being a strong supporter of Brexit would love to see the EU begin the crumble. Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen. Concerning other European citizens, not one EU member state wants us to leave. You think you’re doing whats best, you need to look a bit harder.
@ Will. Your argument undermines itself.
” Leaving will result as a trigger and more may leave, ”
Yes. It is already known that at the least substantial minorities of several countries would like the option to leave. You do believe in democracy, don’t you, or are you one with those EU bureaucrats who believe that the public can be ignored and dragged along for their own good? That attitude is a solid reason to want out on its own.
” the EU will implode and it will cost the UK billions!” It will cost the UK a darn site less if we are out before it happens, which seems a fair possibility whether we leave or no,,,: if we are talking “risk” and “unknown”, argue both sides.
“The EU has its problems” Write that ten times over, in spades. And one of its key problems is a resistance to reform!
“not one EU member state wants us to leave” Well that doesn’t logically point to nothing but it being in our interest to stay., does it. What’s in their interest need not at all be in in ours.
Looking hard at the EU?
There’s the mask and there’s what’s behind it.
The different spins (and the mistreatment of the Irish population) over the Lisbon treaty was more than enough to alert me to watch for “smoke and mirrors” fro pro EU politicians.
Some have admitted that they know that being open and honest is too dangerous, given the aims and condition of the EU.
“When it becomes serious, you have to lie.”
― Jean-Claude Juncker
“I am for joining a free trade zone. The European Union is not such zone, but a zone of raging bureaucracy”
― Janusz Korwin-Mikke
Professor Giacomo Vaciago of Milan’s Catholic University: “It’s clear that the euro has virtually failed over the last ten years, even if you are not supposed to say that.”
The financial circumstances in European countries like Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Moldova, Serbia, Cezh Republic etc Proves that the European union only is a proverbs in the mouth of dreams. Greece was bail out more than 3 times. Standard of living is low and cost of living is high? European union needs reformation and reorganisation, only when Britain leave
So, I made a spelling mistake ? am I bad? spelling has nothing to do with intelligence LOL
I’m afraid I don’t have any interest in how many dissertations you have written, I also have lived in various parts of Europe, including Norway. I have also lived in all but one of the major continents where the UK is held in high esteem, the whole scare campaign to get UK citizens to vote to stay is beyond belief. I repeat, propaganda to remain in the UK is rife, if you want to swallow it whole, be my guest.
We tried to get reform from within, we failed, open your eyes can you not see what bringing Turkey, Albania and etc., will do to our already strained resources?
Why do the other member states not want us to leave? Because they KNOW we are better off out and they are better off if we stay in – simple.
I support Lisa view, she is right. Firstly the worst crisis we are facing as a Country is illegal immigrants coming to UK. Secondly the other problems we are dealing with by staying in European union is massive waves of people coming from Europe, where illegal people mix with them and claim asylum making it very difficult to remove them. From my research we have between 350,000 to830,000 illegal people in United Kingdom. When people who are not suppose to be in a country where by give birth to children, the number of people increase, problem increase public transport, NHS trust, housing, overcrowded school for local people total overstretched Government expenses. If you are a Prime Minister, will you open your eyes to open your borders to everyone in the name of being praise by does business corporation ,business leaders, charities who are beneficial of employment of cheap labour. Or charities who are receiving donations from the crisis. When you have roughly 600,000 illegal people plus fake asylum seekers who is the burden on is it not taxpayers me and you. British people should look deeply, I am not saying we should leave totally from the European union only to leave and join the European Economic Area, like Norway, Iceland, Russia, San Marino, Switzerland etc United Kingdom can not forever be a Charitable organisation to other nations, at the expense of the freedom of the British people. We have to leave the EU to control our borders, relive our public transport and housing, NHS trust and educational system. We can’t not continue to be in total ignorance of the fact that European union is unpopular and can’t help us improve our life and grow our economy.
I appreciate all the ‘mundane’ arguments but consider the bigger picture.
I am going to ask you to invest in a business called the ‘EU’ .
Here are the conditions:
The management are generally considered undemocratic (indeed, sometimes they have been electorally sacked and jump on the ‘gravy train’) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union
The finances have not been signed off as true and correct for nearly 17yrs and only signed lately with disregard to the issues. (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110202/debtext/110202-0004.htm)
The fact that middle management (an ex UK P.M.?) can fire whistleblowers who point out the vulnerability of their accounts. ( She advised that money was haemorrhaging inappropriately) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marta_Andreasen
No one seems to have any idea of the legal position.
One director can, for the sake of vanity, demand that once a month a week of meetings have to be held in their country at the cost of millions. ( the Strasbourg circus) See section ‘European Parliament’ at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_seats_of_the_European_Union#Oneseat_campaign
The ‘EU’ company demands that to trade with them you need to pay them to sell your products on their shelves. (When supermarkets did that it was considered corrupt practice)
Would you invest?
VictorToks – exactly.
Chris Brown thank you for the links. The BBC seems to be very selective in what it broadcasts, I also note correspondents and interviewers adding statements immediately after any broadcast which suggests leaving is in our best interest, obviously trying to negate what has been said. Pretty disgusted that the government have spent our taxes on a stay campaign and the BBC’s neutral position has shifted and become a David Cameron support group.
They are supporting him so that he will not retract their licence Lisa it is blackmail, just the sort of thing ca moron does.
Lisa you are on track. Spelling is not the issues you are making a decision, a point which all the people of this Greater Kingdom of the UK appreciate a lot. Apart from the UK who is contributing the lion share of the European union budget How much is Greece, Bulgaria, Italy, Spain and Portugal contributing to the European union. Why are the Euro septic politicians fighting nail and tooth, with fear tratic against British people leaving the union? Why are Western countries interested in the UK? The sensitivity of the matter is that the impression that we are currently being given is surface information. Illegal immigrants coming to UK are coming through which route Greece, Italy France.,Malta etc Human trafficking is through where the mixture of asylum seekers, European people from Romania Bulgaria and eastern door way. People coming from Africa cross the Mediterranean Sea into Europe .
Victor – I couldn’t have said it better :)
Bob K do you think you could get a spot on the BBC News? Perfect analogy.. so many people just don’t see it, even if they have the information they get brainwashed by the scaremongering. I’m scared myself.. of what will happen if we stay.. if the vote goes the wrong way or is rigged.
Definitely going to be rigged Lisa read this..http://youtu.be/MZRYVE4naHc
My major concern is for the British people to get the best for us. British people deserve the best negotiations with the outside world,including the European union.Our children,single parents,disabled people,families to live in a conducsive environment.European union has serivce it’s usefulness for the British people.It’s time for a new regime ,new way ,better future in control of our business,schools,econom,cities,which is impossible inthe club of Europe.
Of course the E.U. don’t want us to leave, they know only too well, that the majority of immigrants currently in Europe and those that follow will come to Britain if they can, we’re just Europe’s dumping ground.
@ Alison Davidson – how corrupt is a country that rigs votes, it’s there for all to see – and yet nothing is done! The fact that “call me Dave” is heading a conference on anti-corruption is farcical, but also somewhat scary – we need vigilance with the referendum, we need the Leave Campaign to put spies at every polling station, and at the count – we should lobby people like Gove, Doris, and IDS to do just that.. my campaign starts today.
What I have to say may sound strange but it’s not new. I went to college in Nigeria. I also spend many years in Nigeria, before coming back to UK. Rigging is not new the former political parties, in power before President Burhai stay in power for good 16 years before God intervail. The people of Nigeria where feed up and frustrated and demand a change.The second reason that the former President set down because it could see the warth of the people. What I am trying to said in whole is that, I don’t trust politicians, government officials, parties leaders, ministers etc In every part of the world from experience does in power don’t want to give people chance to decide what’s good for the future, they have been imposing their will on the people of the United Kingdom for years. Whether Labour or conservative or SNP etc We the good people of the UK should together stand up in one accord not violently or by roits by in a reasonable way and Say No to European union and Westminster! !!
The major tools the European union and Westminster government is using is fear tratic against British people will, Media houses like BBC etc. The other is Propaganda to censor the opposition, Propaganda has been the essential part of government control and abuse of Human rights. Corruptions and money is also being used £9.3 millions of taxpayers money is being wasted, taxpayers money is being used to lobby all of us to vote to stay in the European union When some families are going to food banks before their can feed their families. Thousands of British people are homeless, jobless,and in debts. Ask the politicians why is it do or die to start in the European union? The other weapon is intimatidation of people who voice out by the Sercet police, people my say it’s not happening in Britain we are not in North Korea or China .But look how the Scottish Refefurudum was rigged by the so called British security P .Big business are giving big donations to the European stay Campaign. Hmmmmmmm, I Smell corruption in the air. It’s we the British people, who are rights are been cleverly suppress, we are cleverly been exploited, side track, some are been brainwashed. If what am saying is false, then why are the Government Wasting £9. 3 million of taxpayers money on unprofitable European campaign? We are wait for an answer, freedom for the Great people of the United Kingdom! !,! Freedom for the hardworking single parents, Freedom for the British homeless who the people claiming asylum are being given houses by the Council, where by British citizens are denial houses. Freedom for the disabled people who their benefits are being cut off and are forced to work. Freedom for the British young girls who are being sexualy abused by illegal migrants! !!
Freedom for the NHS! !,,
Vote Leave! !!
You’re absolutely right Victor – and our esteemed leader is hosting a conference on anti-corruption citing Nigeria and Afghanistan as some of the worst – personally I think he is unfit to be PM let alone accuse others of what he is doing in our own country! Let him who is without sin….. I will be voting leave as will many of my friends – but if the count is rigged we are without hope. We must all pray for justice in this referendum, but we have to do our bit as well by voting LEAVE!
Well I am a Christian. I believe in prayer and the power of the Most High God. Since everyone has freedom of speech and expression. I going to go on my knees and pray for the coming Refefurudum ,that the God who is above every power, principalities, government, cabal to let his own will be done in this matter. Some people my say this is werid, it may sound strange. But when a cabal of people who think power is a right and birthright for a particular group of people. There’s a problem, how can a group of people hold us to ransom in this 21ST CENTURY. We are talking about the future of the British people being mortgage in the name of Staying in the European union. The British prime minister David Cameron, made a rude comment about Nigeria and Afghanistan been fantastically corrupt, Is that not unacceptable to the people of Nigeria and Afghanistan? People tell is British politicians and government Sanits or Holy Holy? From research 70% of the stolen public funds from Africa and middle East is it not laundering to Europe especially Nigerian politicians saved it British Banks to buy choices of properties in London. This is the major reason to leave the EU because it makes our leaders untouchable, dictators, abusers of Human rights. There’s are two Nigerian politicians in British Jails who steal Billions of dollars. The good people of Our Great Britain should tell David Cameron to set down! !! BRITISH PEOPLE should tell David Cameron that we don’t have confidence in him to deliver the principles of democracy for us anymore, anyway his Late Father had an Offshore Account, making him corrupt like the Nigerian and Afghanistan governments officers he is tarnishing their image. He who doesn’t have Sin throw the 1st stone. 90% of the dictators stolen his used to buy properties in Choicest areas of London according to the Evening Standard paper of last few weeks. David Cameron you need to stand down please! !,
Hitler always wanted to get his hands on England, we stopped him then, so we can do it again. Seem to remember we did quite well on our own.
Well said Jacqueline !
Some other areas that the British people deserve to know,is how the so called politicians and government agencies,departments in London are spending our tax pounds.Billions of taxpayers money is wasted on defence,Foreign Aid,European contributions,unprofitable policies because our leaders and politicians are using the European union to screw us and milk us dry.Questions,that I would like the Great British people ask our Honorary Prime minister and cabinet ministers is How the are spending our tax pounds.Can our leaders justify explain the reason we have to contribute £55million pounds,every day when British people are homeless,families are struggling to eat.Can the British government tell us
We have been Great Britain long before the EU came about and we should lead the world in our indepence by leaving it and protect our sovereign rights.
Why should we send £350million to an organisation that is driven by Germany and has no ability to resolve serious issues like immigration and terrorism as those same organisations will still be involved in these topics and will still be in dialog with us because we lead the world in many things.
To say that jobs and our standard of living will be affected is a political stance because the truth is we would be £350 million pounds better off each week of which this money could be put to Great Britain’s issues,
Why have we let 2 million people come to or shores and take jobs that could be taken by ourselves and its a disgrace that we’d rather employ immigrants rather than our own.
Remember Charity begins at home
Mike, I’ll be voting the same wasy as you but not for the same reasons.
Remember the great in Great Britain has nothing to do with our status or quality.or that we used to have an empire.
It’s there by historical and geographical accident as, for ships coming round from the western end of the Mediterranean, we were the larger of two bits of land sticking out into the Atlantic. The other Britain is now known as Brittany.
Britain is great: in size, compared to Brittany.
David Cameron and his political supporter’s should please give us a breath a space. Is this David Cameron and Westminster Refefurudum or British people Refefurudum? Why is David Cameron going forward and backward in this matter ?Something is missing, which the Prime minister is not telling us. Why projecting fear and uncertainty into the mind of the British people? We are people who should have a voice and say in matters which determines are future, the future of unborn generations. BRITISH citizens are pushed out of their homes, NHS trust is overwhelming ,majority of people are in deep debts. The only things the Leave campaign is trying to do is to pollute the mind of the people. Is by giving away £55 M every day m £350million every week is beneficial or investing that into skills development of our jobless young people. Is by funding the European union is more important than finding solutions to our housing crisis, immigration crisis. Gap between the rich and poor is a challenge to
David Cameron and his political supporter’s should please give us a breath a space. Is this David Cameron and Westminster Refefurudum or British people Refefurudum? Why is David Cameron going forward and backward in this matter ?Something is missing, which the Prime minister is not telling us. Why projecting fear and uncertainty into the mind of the British people? We are people who should have a voice and say in matters which determines are future, the future of unborn generations. BRITISH citizens are pushed out of their homes, NHS trust is overwhelming ,majority of people are in deep debts. The only things the Leave campaign is trying to do is to pollute the mind of the people. Is by giving away £55 M every day m £350million every week is beneficial or investing that into skills development of our jobless young people. Is by funding the European union is more important than finding solutions to our housing crisis, immigration crisis. Gap between the rich and poor is a challenge to this nation. Why is it a group of people who sit in Westminster are deciding who can vote and who can’t? Is it not the issues concerning the British people we are currently talking about? British people should raise up and not let them hijacked our future as they hijacked the Scottish Refefurudum by using fear and uncertainty news with bullying. We are the people who elected them, so they should, let the British people have a said in this matter. We are the taxpayers who they are wasting our money. We want our country back! !!
More than 1millon foreign are in the country. Soon some people will be shouting Racism, discrimination sentiment and we are contributing into the British system. We are not Racists but we cannot guarantee on taking more thousands of people at the expense of the freedom of the British people. Even if we don’t get our freedom ,from Germany and France now. The European union only is a time bomb,cracks are seen by people around the world. It is just a matter of time. David Cameron is not omega and Apha, he will soon leave Westminster and British people will vote a government, who love it own people.
But one thing I know is United Kingdom is leaving the European union
Once again, we are being warned of “Weapons of mass destruction ” that we will be
bombarded with if we dare to leave the E U. As far as I can see the weapons are coming
out of the politicians mouths. if we bring all our armed forces back home, we will be well
protected.
Britain has always stood strong in the world for centuries before the EU came along and the true British people will stand strong again and show the politic’s that they got it wrong as Britain is great without the corruption and flagrant inability to solve EU Problems we should leave it to em!!, and be Great Britain once again
All governments are corrupt and our is just the same, they even manufacture statistics to suit their claims that we are better off in Europe. Recently they told us that EU Migrants do not have a negative effect of our economy and that they pay more in taxes than they get back – ok well, here’s an independent non political magazine telling the truth – Quote from South East Farmer Magazine: The main four supermarkets, Asda, Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons claim to guarantee the farming community a fair return for their produce; and yet, between them they employed 519,000 low paid migrant workers who were so poorly paid that they claimed £936 million pounds in Tax Credits and Housing Benefits! How is that helping Britain?
Brilliant comments Lisa and your so right why do the Cameron’s of this world not speak the truth and give an honest opinion and not the fear factor that is so apparent and so entirely false
Another week of propaganda from the “Stay In Campaign”
“If we leave this could happen or this might happen”
Cameron will muster anyone from anywhere to support his drivel. The thing that annoys me most about Cameron (and I WAS a Conservative supporter) is his inability to grasp the fact that the British people are not all fools, and can’t see through his rantings. If Cameron loves Europe so much, he should do us all a favour and go and live there.
For all those who think that staying in the E.U. is the best option, I would point you to the old saying “be careful for what you wish for” This is our biggest decision for centuries, DO YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY BACK OR DON’T YOU???
Great comments Bjays,
I agree he should ha ha …
But according to the 2 c’s (Cameron and corbyn) world war 3 will happen if we leave, how shallow are these folks we’ve stood strong for centuries without the EU and we will again
been doing my own little survey on stay or leave amongst people I know or meet. asked about 30 so far, different walks of life, different financial wellbeing, backgrounds and different political views. some are self made, millionaires, hairdressers, gardeners, long haul transport, chemist, retired, housewives, electrician and others. out of the people i have surveyed ONLY 3 wish to remain. a teacher, a retired farmer and a retired printer. looks encouraging,
VOTE LEAVE
Great comments Sue,
Why is that the Cameron’s on this world forget to mention that the true cost of migration is not the tax they pay but the tax credits and housing benefits they claim
Something is fishy.Some certain group of people are benefiting from the Staying in the European union.Politicians who are siphoning on millions of taxpayers money ,though rigging statistics figure to cover ,up the ways that they have been robing,milking the British people under the umbrella of so called European union. Our big business like H&M, Lidi,Sainsbury,Tesco,Agriculture chains,London high shops Primark,etc They enjoy employing cheaper labour from Europe,Asylum seekers at the expense of British people being laid off
Your absolutly right Victor, only those with a vested interest would urge us to stay in the E.U., they’re only looking out for themselves, if they’re not fiddling their expenses they will find other ways to keep their noses in the trough. Most of the Government know only too well it will take a lot of work to sort out the mess that we are in if we leave, and frankly I don’t think they capable of doing it but, if they can’t, we’ll find others who can.
My “Leave” poster is up in my window. No-one’s chucked a brick at it yet.
So is mine! And so far those who have mentioned it are of the same mind.
I’d like a leave poster, where did you get it?
Every one I’ve spoken to about the E.U. referendum are voting “LEAVE” bar one who works in a London bank, enough said! Cameron knows he has a fight on his hands, that’s why he is using fear tactics. Well I’ve got news for you Cameron, look in your history book, THE BRITISH PEOPLE DON’T SCARE EASILY.
Why should British families have to turn to food banks,when are contributing £350million weekly to the European union?Why should the disabled benefits been cut when are resources are being splash on Foreign Aid?
Why should British people be laid off and big UK companies are employing thousands of cheap illegal immigrants from the European union?
People with disabilities are being let down.Is it their faults for being born disabled.
We are British people be thrown out of council house’s and asylum seekers be housed.
Why are people being priced out of London?
Why are people homeless,families and asylum seekers be housed at the expense of British people?
Why are people from Europe been able to collect benefits,taxes return,employment benefits and the British people in need of help being let down?
Why are are schools overcrowded ?Is staying in the European union the best option?
Why are people struggling to eat and live when,we try in the United kingdom
Because Victor, the British fight for nothing, and the Europeans fight for everything,
and we sit back and let them take everything.
Victor these problems are all over.
Even here in this poor country.
It’s called gentrification, mate. Capitalism did this, not the EU.
you’re fighting the wrong enemy here :(
Well – here’s a thing. I wonder how the reform of the Lords (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36294740) would / would not affect future proceedings if we stay in?
British people deserve better and are denied access to a brighter future in control of our destiny.Thing’s people are unwilling to defend,fight for will be taken away or hijacked.It’s is time for the British people to be refused to be exploited,to refused to be sidetracked or robbed of the chance to be set free from Europe club of unparalleled direction.Life is choice the choice the British people make next month will effect generation to come,so people should not make a unwise mistake to regert for years after.Vote Leave!!!!
I really worry about leaving. It’s already hard enough to get good people to care for older and disabled people. I m really concerned about how things will go if there is a sudden reduction in the pool of people who are willing to do these kind of jobs.
The Union has chances to make itself succesful and popular project and Juncker is basically on the right track with his aims of returning back to policies of:
– open and straight communication.
– big in big, small in small ie. subsidiarity principle. Micromanaging peoples life is very profitable for those 10,000 corrupt bureaucrats, but very hateful for the rest.
– principle of activity and strenght instead of passivity and weakness
Adding to previous ones EU should perform many other tasks as well, to win the trust, respect and even heart of it’s citizens. But in the meantime…
I’m not a UK citizen myself, but imo if a one believes in EU:s ability to reform itself in the coming years, it’s still a good deal for UK. And for all the other members, too. Basically it’s all about the faith into the ability of western culture to rise and streghten itself up in time. To reborn. If that can’t be done union-wide by leaders like Juncker, Cameron and Tusk – it’s the nations of East Europe and UK that will act and do it independently. That’d be the end of the Union.
But if a Briton is pessimistic on the am. issues, he should vote leave, for the best of himself and for his country. The vote is desicive for your future as a nation, after all. For many many years to come.
Brysell is only a small but necessary part of the solution. It’s all in peoples and nations hands in our democracies. On my part I strongly believe in us – the western culture and refuse to belive in defeat. But you decide it for UK.
BR from Finland
If we were a nation of defeat, we would not have gone to the aid of Europe in two world wars, sometimes, with Germany now having control, I wonder why we bothered. I for one don’t want to be ruled by Germany, or France for that matter. I believe the Common Market as it was presented to us was sufficient. The meddling of Europe in our day to day lives and the negation of the elected government by the powers that be in Brussels causes resentment and anger on both sides, so if you have a vote, vote with your feet and stand up for British rights by voting LEAVE.
” if a one believes in EU:s ability to reform itself in the coming years, it’s still a good deal for UK.”
But I don’t. I think the evidence is strongly against it.
I think the objectives of further expansion and closer union (not enough thought about reform of either of those) is a recipe for disaster given current economic and political tensions, added to the disconnect felt in many countries between the citizens and their governments.
Yes, there are risks either way, but I’d rather the free risks of being out, than being locked in when the only possibility of exit is if the whole thing falls messily apart.
Which would be a much more painful and costly exit and farewell.
Reformisti. If you lived in Britain you would see just how much our country has changed, and not for the better. Sorry to say, it’s not a case of being pessimistic, it’s a case of watching our country heading fast for disaster. The E.U. is incapable of reforming itself. For those that want to stay in the E.U. I say “GOOD LUCK TO YOU” you are going to need it. Please God, we may be the first to leave but, we won’t be the last. I JUST WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!.
Lisa, spare us your “55 years of experience” ( BTW this makes you old and hence not apt to decide what future generations should endure ) and your delusions of grandeur from ww2 – 70 years after!!
History lesson.
Britain was cooked. Yeah Hitler was stopped….for a while, but without the Americans you would speak German now.
It a balance between what we gain and what we lose. Most people will probably be poorer if we leave so that’s what influences me most.
What the BBC don’t tell you…http://www.britishinfluence.org/the_referendum_who_can_and_can_t_vote
Just listened to more dire news from the remain campaigners provided by the so called BBC and other TV Stations which seems to support the remain campaign as they seem to focus on the consequences of leaving without giving the same amount of air time to the leave campaign so it just demonstrates that the government establishment gets more air time than the leave campaign so how is this so? and how is this being kept within the so-called financial budgets that both parties are supposed to have or is it that our tax money is funding the government to promote leave ???? one would ask.
Have the remain campaigners not got any confidence in their own country or is someone getting paid from EU Funds to keep Britain in ?????
Naturally BBC is pro gov and hence pro stay. But SkyNews has roughly the same bugdjet, are they on which side?
O.K. Guys and Girls, more than 300 leading business figures have put their name to a letter to the Daily Telegraph, calling on the UK to leave the E.U. We are NOT alone. Whichever political party you’ve supported in the past, it’s time to come together and show them all, that we’re not falling for their lies anymore. It’s supposed to be an honest debate, not a load of claptrap, can you really trust anything they say. We all want what’s best for the British people, NOT what’s best for them, their salary is base on other profesionals, what a laugh, a bunch of amateurs, couldn’t run the proverbial in a brewery.
SPREAD THE WORD “VOTE LEAVE”
Note: the BBC managed to avoid covering this, as it has previous pro-leave stories, such as the condemning, by numerous MP’s, of the Government’s taxpayer-funded “remain” leaflet.
I’m beginning to suspect real bias.
the eu is a dictatorship that was never voted in by the people ok uk, please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k and others like it, MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS CONTROLED BY THE ELITE WHO BENIFIT FROM THE EU., PLEASE DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH
Well said Al
Yes go read the “real news”…preferably from Stormfront judging by your rants about the EU.
Christ ! What? Did they plug the internet cable into the old folk asylum?
I am imagining UKIP voters – a mass of WHITE angry OLD people butthurt their country is not putting those “other” people in “BongoBongo land” in their place.
To Adrian: imagine away, but please don’t connect that to reality.
It is so nice and easy to demonise the “other side”. for purposes of being able to ignore them. And rather than the young, I think on average I’d trust those over 50 for experience and balanced opinion.
Too many young have either little scepticism or peculiarly one-sided scepticism.
(Campaign for equal doubt!)
Me, I’m not a UKIP supporter or in a nursing home.
Adrian, yes, I’m 70 years young and proud of it, but how dare you say that I’m not able or apt to make decisions for the future of this country? Having raised 23 foster children, and 5 of my own, I have 23 grandchildren.. do you not think I care enough to do my homework and help make decisions that will guarantee their future? As for America, yes they came in when it suited them, as they always have. My father was a Canadian flyer, in it from the beginning, my stepfather was released from Belsen at the end of the war and spend the rest of his life in hospital, most of his family perished in the holocaust. Don’t speak to me of the glories of war or talk about delusions of grandeur, read you history books, talk to your elders, and have a little respect. I thank God that you do not represent all the young people of the United Kingdom, a lot of them have their heads screwed on and do their research before spouting rubbish!
I might add, that I’m still working full-time, still contributing to society by paying very high taxes, but money you will learn is not everything – the right to have an elected government that you can change when you don’t like it will disappear if we don’t get out of the EU now – already the eurocrats impose rules and regulations that cripple this country, it can only get worse if we stay – staying in gives them that power!
Well said Lisa. I’m nearing 80 years old, the outcome of the Referendum is unlikely to affect me if we stay in the E.U. I have no axe to grind or vested interest but, I love my country and all that it has stood for in the past. We have a debt to all those that gave their lives in the name of freedom. Yes freedom, not to be ruled by others.
Lisa, people over 45 and people from specific ethnic backgrounds are more likely to vote Leave. It is reasonable to ask “are they pulling the ladder up” – the reply was worded in an impolite way – but the premise would appear to be correct.
to Stephen… A vote *either* way is to “pull the ladder up” if we remain, we are stuck remaining. I consider that a worsening prospect.. Certainly a more risky one.
“There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”J-C-Juncker.
Still wanting to enlarge, despite major economic and political tensions which enlargement will only worsen, the EU is going in the wrong direction. If we don’t get off now, in however strange a place we might find ourselves, being on the bus when it breaks down would be far worse. And if it doesn’t break down? Well the EU has plans. It wants to ignore electorates for a start.
. There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.” J-C Juncker.
Bjays – Thank you. I guess we “can’t put old heads on young shoulders”, and I know as a youngster I was (and still can be) a bit of a rebel, but it seems that history, patriotism and freedom are considered only for the “old”. Funny thing is with grandparents who lived into their 80’s and late 90’s, I don’t consider myself old at all, I love this country too and I want my grandchildren and their children to grow up in a free country, where what they vote for is what they get, not a dictatorship. This link provides an interesting read -http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/the-fourth-reich-is-here—without-a-shot-being-fired/
If we leave, my kids will grow up in a poorer country. Whether it’s intentional or not, voting to leave means pulling the ladder up behind you.
The reason we need to put away are differences between each ,and join minds ,hands and voices together as a untied British families.No matter our race,colour, background,and politicial views. We need to go to back to history,the reason for the 1st and 2nd World War is dictatorship by a particular group of individuals to suppress,override,suppress democracy.Germany is the majority voices in control of European union hiding under European laws to carry our hidden agenda of ruling the people of Europe.Germans are Germans ,Hilter carried out the most terrible crime against humanity.Were most families are still bearing the memory.The took in 1 million refugees now what to force against others countries will,to take in refugees. We by not considered the economic impact on security of the continent.Germany is the European union and France say no to dictatorship.
Why is it that some politicians who were educated at Eton and the like, develope such arrogance for the common people? Is it the word “common” that they don’t wish to be associated with, I’m surprised they haven’t renamed the “House of Commons” to the “House of the Elite” Perhaps this adverse effect to the word “common” would explain why so many of them have no “Common Sense”
Maybe they learn to lie at Eton, and assume the “common people” will swallow it…http://www.dcbmep.org/norwegian-ambassador-reveals-norway-doesnt-pay-for-eu-single-market-access/
I. Will vote to leave. Th reason being the eu parliment is so corrupt how can we allow such dishonesty at the exspence of those who work to pay for it.
Well! What a day, Cameron has been caught with his trousers down yet again.
Have you read the Mail? While he was telling us about his so called renegotiations with the E.U. he was plotting with big business to back the “Stay In” campaign.
So Dodgy Dave has at last shown his true colours, he’s an absolute disgrace to British politics, he’s nothing but a scheming, conniving, lily livered con man. I can’t believe other conservative members will back him now, those that do are only condoning his actions. We don’t need people like him running our country, he should resign now.
I thought that P.M. stood “Prime Minister” NOT “Plotting Minister”
They say that Tony Blair is the most hated man in Britain, “look out Tony someone is vying for your place”
To hell with Dodgy Dave and all his claptrap.
VOTE LEAVE!
Seems to make no difference Bjays, it barely makes the news, apathy will be the death of democracy.
The major problems in the United Kingdom is the Conservative party. The policy is toxicology and unrealistic for the growth of the people of this Greater Kingdom. When we have Prime minister like David Cameron, who and members of his cabinet. To me they are untrustworthy and uncertainty. What does a Government what gain by selling it people
I’m not a UKIP supporter either, I was a conservative, prior to that I was a Liberal, but became disenchanted with both. Now I vote locally for individuals that I know have done a good job or not at all. Nationally I really don’t know who I will support next time but as long as call me Dave is in power, I won’t be voting conservative. I’m not a racist, I really believe that we must offer hope to genuine asylum seekers, but we need a points system for immigration for both EU and Overseas to ensure we get migrants who will not not be dependant on us.
MASS immigration is costing British taxpayers £17billion a year, a bombshell report warned last night. But it said the UK could save £1.2billion by quitting the EU.
A detailed study of the costs of migration to Britain set against its benefits showed an overwhelmingly negative impact on the Treasury.
The burden of public services, benefits and pensions for migrants and their families far outstrips the income from what they pay in taxes. Migrants contributed £89.7billion in taxes but received £106.7billion in public spending during 2014-15, the report shows.
The cost to taxpayers included a staggering £20billion paid in working-age benefits.
The crippling £17billion annual shortfall – equivalent to nearly £63 for every UK household – was estimated in a report published by population think tank Migration Watch UK.
Very regrettably, Lisa’s comment is spot on – “Apathy will be the death of democracy.”
‘Wonderif’ the reason might be that the electorate has been ground down by politics and the social engineering conducted by politicians ? Mmmmmm.
As much as I try to inspire people to take notice – I’m flogging a dead horse.
As said “Apathy will be the death of democracy.” I know we all sick and tired of politics and politicians but this statement is more important at this time, than it has ever been. We are being ruled by unelected and unaccountable members of the E.U. we can’t vote them out, we can’t hold them to account for their actions, what’s sort of democracy is this? It is plain to see this JUST ISN’T DEMOCRACY.
Any politician that supports us staying in the E.U. doesn’t know the meaning of democracy and shouldn’t be representing the British people, they certainly do not have our welfare at heart, it seems to be “I’m alright Jack pull the ladder up”
I just watched “Brexit the movie” couldn’t watch anymore than 30 minutes, just felt sick in my stomach.
I’ll not support any politician or party that supports us being in E.U. in the future, and I’ve contacted my local M.P. stating this, suggest you do the same, if you feel the same.
THIS NOT THE TIME FOR APATHY!
THIS IS THE TIME TO FIGHT FOR OUR COUNTY!
Here we go again!
Japan’s prime minister Shinzo Abe has warned that leaving the EU would make the UK less attractive for its companies to invest. Mr Abe, who leads the world’s third largest economy, said Japanese firms viewed the UK as a “gateway” to Europe.
Well I’m sure he does, once again, he’s looking out for Japan’s interest, NOT ours. I seem to recollect Japan cosying up with Germany sometime in the past. If he thinks that we are prepared to give up our freedom just to give Japan a gateway to Europe, he can think again!
It’s about time these other countries kept their opinions to themselves, we don’t take kindly to threats so, MIND YOUR OWN BLOODY BUSINESS!!
WELL SAID!
People are freely available to give their opinions,but this is a national security issue.So leaders of other countries should close their mouths and keep whatever thought or opinions within their borders.
What a great insult to the pride of the British people.
David Cameron should continue to tarnish the image of the British people all over the world,because of his self political increase.What’s their problems?
If by leaving the European union is the solution to the current economic crisis in British,let us go!!!
If by leaving the European union we will find solution to our housing crisis,immigration crisis,let us go!!!
Why does Japanese people and government not sell their freedom and sovereignty to China and India?Let the whole world ,know that British people deserve better,we are not commodity to be exploited?British people wake ,David Cameron is turning into a dictator ,with the rude comments he made about The Russian president Putin and ISIS Leader. How can a reasonable leader be making sencitive comments like dat?
Why is David Cameron taken the European union matter personally?British be need to call politicians to order,with the politics of bitterness.We want a free New Britain!!!
It’s a nightmare, no longer are we a proud nation, but one whose name is being sullied everywhere by our PM a man more hated than Tony Blair – he has literally become a dictator, controlling the news, printing propaganda at the expense of the tax payer – why even my pamphlet from the Electoral office had his opinion written all over it! Now he disregards the British Public and tells the world he knows what is best, so that for some unknown (as yet) reason, they tell us how to think and vote – does this man have a treble 6 somewhere under his thinning hair?
It’s an old susses saying but it says it all… “I won’t be druv” , please God let the British Public vote us out of this mess and get Cameron out of office!
Lisa I’m proud to be British. But I’m not a BeLeaver. I look round at the people I work with and the families in my kids school friends I see plenty of Europeans – I’m glad to have them in my life. I don’t see how leaving will make things better. The EU will still exist and we will still be subject to the EU if we want to stay in the EU. But some of my friends and coworkers will have to go. To me it will be all pain and no gain.
sussex that was – typo!
The British people still think that they have a Prime minister,forgetting we have a dictator.David Cameron has made some security sensitive statements,which the British police M15 &M16 are pretending to overlook(1)
Calling two Sovereign Nation fantastically Courrpt(2)By dragging the Russian president Putin name into the European union matter,which can lead to War if care is not taken.(3)By saying that AI -Baghdadi the leader of ISIS will be happy, if Britain leaves the European union , which can put thousands of British families life at risk of terrorists attacks home and abroad.British people pass
Vote of lack of confidence on David Cameron now!!!!!
If it weren’t for Cameron there would be no Referendum. Milliband didn’t have it in his manifesto – Cameron did. I don’t like him but he isn’t a dictator.
The biggest problem with the EU is that it is so corrupt. It make me wonder why our prime minister can’t see it or does he not want to?
Britain has been ordered by Brussels to build more houses – to cope with all the EU immigrants. Would suspect that Camerons reply would be “Anything you say, Sir”
The European Commission warned the UK is heading for an ‘acute’ housing crisis caused by massive population growth.
Really? tell us something that we don’t already know!
It admitted that first-time buyers were being hit particularly hard and the situation could worsen, with official projections saying the UK needs at least 220,000 new houses a year.
“The situation could worsen” there is no “COULD” about, it WILL! and continue to do so.
But, rather than acknowledging the clamour in the UK for stricter border controls to ease demand, the Commission ordered (YES “ORDERED”) Britain to ‘take further steps to boost housing supply’. O.K. so where’s the money coming from?
We will also need, (sorry no, let me rephrase that) we need now, more Hospitals, Doctors, Nurses, Schools, Teachers, Public Transport, Roads, the list is never ending.
I don’t like my country being ordered to do anything by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats. The sooner we leave the E.U the better, whatever the cost, at least we’ll be free to run our own country, providing of course, we don’t elect another Government that will sell us down the river again.
BJays I agree, but people are shortsighted – so the cost of food may rise – Cameron says by 3%, but he also claims house values/prices will drop, so may things to weigh up, but if we stay in the EU taxes will rise, and the redistribution of wealth will make us poorer. How can the EU support all the countries that are going bust? Only by using our money to bail them out… so I’d rather pay a little more now, than watch our country commit financial suicide by giving even more power to the bureaucrats that run the EU.
I am from Greece and i could easily say that would be better in case of BREXIT because i think that European Union STOP OFFERING since 2007 when Crisis Starts!!!
Why has the EU not presentted any financial statements for many years?
Why has UK not presented any financial statements for many years? Using a DIY lawyer words doesn’t make you right.
When you strip away all the issues, immigration, finance, economy and any other distraction that works, just what is the UK voting for?
This is all about ‘us,’ the UK, as a collective of people who have been given a right to vote in the UK, and influence an outcome such as, who governs the UK nation?
June 23rd is a decision on do we keep our right to vote, or give it to someone else? No more, no less.
As a footnote, we ‘get’ free trade, we ‘get’ freedom of movement, we ‘get’ migration through economics, we ‘get’ no european wars.
We also ‘get’ power corrupts, and total power, totally corrupts, do we all not share the ‘human condition?’ History and present situations suggest we do.
If it weren’t for Cameron there would be no Referendum. Milliband didn’t have it in his manifesto – Cameron did. I don’t like him but he isn’t a dictator.
Mark – it a balance between what we gain from being in the EU and what we lose. To me the balance weighs in favour of staying in.
Sheffieid. “If it weren’t for Cameron there would be no Referendum”
The only reasons Cameron put the Referendum in his manifesto was that he was worried about the rise of Ukip, he also thought that it would sway voters from Labour to the Conservatives, which it did. At the time Camerons sole objective was to ensure the Consevatives were re-elected, any way that he could. Then he set about trying to persuade us that he could get a better deal with his renegotiations with the E.U. (which he failed to do) Whilst all this was going on, he was mustering support for “STAY IN” campaign and working on fear tatics. Cameron may not be a dictator, he’s not strong enough, he’s just a crafty schemer and a dictators lacky.
Hi Sheffield, you are right, he is not, but he does represent those who ‘fund’ the Conservative Party, he who pays the piper as they say.
Hi Hastings, what is the balance? What are we balancing here? Our right to choose or to let others choose for us?
My point is simply about our right to vote, a choice.
If you were a Bank, Corporate or politician, what is the biggest problem you face when wanting to implement a policy? People with a choice are your biggest problem, remove that, and … you have the European Commission, and the European Court of Law.
So perhaps by ‘balance’ you mean choice, or lack of?
Sheffield not a dictator – but close to it with his persuading all his “friends” to scare off those who would vote Leave. He is using our taxes to run his campaign, not just the leaflets but every government web site you visit spews out the same garbage. Merkel will become our President if we remain… now there’s a dictator if ever I saw one. We must leave or be swallowed whole by the ambitions of the 4th Reich.
Peter, he doesn’t want to, he is part of it, he can’t keep a single promise, look back at his manifesto – we have everything to gain by leaving the EU and getting rid of Cameron. he lies and lies, look at the real picture not the political waffle. They say Norway has to obey the EU, my son has lived there 18 years, it’s not true, their fishing, farming, education and Health service are all better than ours. Yes food is more expensive, but wages are higher, housing costs are lower, council taxes are much lower and gas and electricity too. But if you listen to the IN brigade, they paint an entirely different picture. Europe’s fishermen are fishing our waters and then selling us fish, our fisherman are paid to destroy their boats. Our farmers are bound in so much red tape it’s not true, whilst in the rest of Europe small farms get huge subsidies which we pay for. In Norway, Farmers and fishermen are rich, whilst ours struggle every day.
Everybody lies…do you think that only Cameron Lies? EVERY POLITIC LIES…liying is their job…About the Supperts of YES OR NO i think that everybody outside of Great Britain must shut up and let Britain’s Vote the best for their countris
Aggelos, I wish they would all shut up too, this is a once in a lifetime chance to do our own thing, to do what is right for our future.
Chris Brown – I’ve only just seen your comment as they don’t seem to run in any particular order – I agree with you totally. Stephen, where do you get your figures from?
Hi All
I’ve been watching and contributing to this debate for some time. Whilst there is a lot of heart felt fact, there is a lot of repetition. Can I ask you all, apart from commenting on this forum, what practical actions (petitions etc.) you take to promote the debate?
I have a poster in my window, a banner in my car and I speak to everyone I meet to ensure they know about their right to vote. I’ve also spoken to everyone in our family from 18 to 88 to ensure they know both sides of the story. I have also written to the PM and our local MP – I make it clear – I am prepared to pay higher prices to be in an independent UK. I also make it clear that if the UK vote to remain, I will jump ship. If I don’t then the UK will sink when Europe does and I don’t think that’s far away.
Amazing how your “both” sides turned to rabid anti EU propaganda.
From what I’ve gleaned from Cameron’s scheming behaviour in the last few months, I think that he will stop at nothing to get his own way, which has caused me to try and analyse the man.
If I were him (than God I’m not) I would have planted one of my cronies in the “Out Campaign” to go along with arguments for leaving, then when I felt the time was right, instruct him to drop one almighty clanger and damage the “Out Campaign”
Just a thought!
Should have read (thank God I’m not) typo!
Lisa i guess we cannot vote because we do not know the truth…they hide it from us.Hope that before be too late some one TELL US THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT IS GOING OUT THERE? WHAT IS THE TRUTH? Who are we? I would like to hear the truth about USA,NATO,RUSSIA,CHINA,
SYRIA,GREECE What is going on ?
Aggelos – wouldn’t we all, problem is we won’t know the truth.. until it’s too late…
Anyway in my opinion is that either UK and Greece should leave European Union because EU future does not really exist…No future for EU because everybody in there cares for his/her pocket and his/her money!
Aggelos – agreed!
Also they shouldn’t forget that they are paid from US we pay them every day…Has any asked me if i have money to pay them? THEN I DON’T! Especially for them! Vote YES to my future YES for my children and my family.
Why you should Vote Leave – browse, download, print or share this document with friends http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_case #voteleave via @vote_leave
Mmmmmm – http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/ – not too sure about this site?
“EU is permanently on the brink of crisis – we will be forced to bail out the EU again” Did we bail out the EU ?
“£350 million a week sent abroad….” Don’t we get some back?
You link to a brexit propaganda site that tells you that brexit is good?
You’re having a laugh!
The bottom line is —— We just want our country back, and to stop paying the
obscene amounts of money we give away, and return to re -stocking our country
with doctors, nurses, police, and stop giving hand outs to anyone and everyone who
crosses our borders We will NOT suffer any of the frightening fairy stories the
unbiased !!!!! government are threatening us with. we will be free to return to
normality ,and put the U’K back on track.
There EEA mechanism is what drives Norway ‘s relationship with the European Union and, on the face it, has done no harm, At less than 4% ,it’s unemployment rate barely causes a ripple, while its standard of living, built on oil and gas revenue, is the healthiest in Europe.Ah yes, the fabled oil fund that Norway created by frist taxing oil companies at around 80% and then diligently saving 4%of it every year for rainy days and assorted capital projects.
Yes if Norway is reckoned to be a three quarter member of the European Union and allows one third of EU legislation to form it’s own legislation, why not become a full member? Wouldn’t it’s standard of living remain unaffected? The Thought of Britain be poorer from leaving the European union is unpopular and falsehood. To develop other parts of UK especially North West, North central, Midlands and Scotland etc We need to be in total control of our economy. Vist Liverpool, Manchester, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Leeds, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Wales and some West Britain cities are underdeveloped 100 %compare to South East England (London ),the capital is taking the Lion share of capital investment, financial services, educational benefits, Industrial expansion etc.
So in the BBC news nothing reasonable and tangible is mention, about progress development in North UK. Why because, we are currently business paying dues to the dinosaur European union club, wasting money, precious time resources on starting the European union. We can’t eat our cake and have it. The standard of living in London and North East England is different, the gap between rich and poor is uncomparable. The British politicians and government are covering the whole truth of the situation in United Kingdom. People are hard hit by low income, high housing prices, high parking payment.
More than 500 ,000 British people are homeless, we have hidden homelessness, Rough sleepers, statutory homelessness, Youth homelessness in Britain. And we are contributing £250to £350 weekly basis to European union. How has the European rebate help us economically, educationally and Agriculturally. BRITISH government is use Propaganda and media to paint a clear picture, that all is well. Vote Leave now
40 % of British families ‘too poor to play a part in society.Nearly four out of 10 households with children, or 8.1millon people, live below an income level regarded by the public as the minimum needed to participate in society, according to new research commissioned by the Rowntree Foundation. 1 in 4 children in UK live below Poverty-stricken conditions
Facts
*2.1 million :The numbe of children in Britain currently living in poverty in working households, where at least one adults is working.
*60 %:The percentage of poor adults who live in working households in Britain.
*10.9 million : people identified as ‘poor ‘in Britain in 2008/09. In 2014/2016 poverty level has increased by the measurements of cuts, reduce in assetable income, where people are deep in debts struggling to cope and repay loans before housing costs.
*London is one of the most unequal places in the UK. Inequality social economic problems, which BBC and Media are payed to cover up from people.
*2.2 million :The number of pensioners who are currently live in poverty in Britain.
*Britain has higher proportion of its population living in relative poverty than most EU countries.
So why are we denial the truth are people are suffering from low income earning and highly cost living .libraries are closing down
Universities education is priced out of the reach of British people. .
How is the European union rebate, help us yearly?
People come in to that our jobs, are people are unemployed.
Our cities are overcrowded and over populated.
Our NHS trust is overwhelming and overstretched
Housing crisis. But Government is using Media and Propaganda to censor people from truth. .
People should go around other parts of UK and see for yourself.
The European Economic Area countries have higher standard of living than us, low poverty level Norway, Switzerland which is no EU or EEA
Our cities are overcrowded.
Says who? And would you say the same if they were “overcrowded” with say…Americans?
How is the poverty in Britain related to the EU?
It isn’t.
They do not dictate the economic policies of the UK. Westminster does!
Norway isn’t thriving because it is out – it’s thriving because it had a population smaller than London and huge oil reserves and significant natural resources. They are subject to EU rules because they want to stay in the EEA so there are loads of migrants particularly from Northern Europe over there. So if the debate for you is about immigration somehow causing deprivation in the UK then Norway isn’t a good example.
I would blame deprivation here more on the affect of UK government policy over the last 20 years and the global recession (which was itself caused by the banking sector who took advantage of reduced govt regulation – so called market liberalisation ).
@Sheffield
Thanks for a level-headed and sane contribution to this discussion, which otherwise is more accurately described as a cumulative diatribe. Cudos to you for still trying to fight the windmills.
Britain wants to play the Norway game? Let them. Let them be a country with 6% the population density of the UK (of which there are, in the UK ~~3% EU foreigners, so chucking out all the Polish won’t do much good anyway). Let them conjur massive reserves of oil into their ground and into their EEZ. Shazaam! Let’s see how they manage to turn the UK into a country that, despite owning massive crude reserves, manages to satisfy its energy needs mostly from hydroelectric sources thanks to its low population density and very favourable geology. And let’s hope Norway won’t ever have as many EU foreigners as the UK – oops, turns out they do, and most of them are … Polish! And Norway contributes nearly as much per head as does the UK!
Love the inaccurate quotes about Norway, don’t know where you got you silly figures from, oh, let me think – Dodgy Dave and his cronies…
“silly figures” from “Dodgy Dave”, huh?
Comprehensive and eloquent, impressive.
Jesus.
If you needed more convincing that this referendum is rigged http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36268839
Cannot find my petitition on 38 Degrees about this practise.
Perhaps this needs another campaign on ‘Change.org’ or ’38 Degrees’
This practise deprives not only Ministers and MP’s in the dark but also deprives the electorate of facts necessary o make an informed decision.
Sheffield, is that what you believe? Norway are not subject to all the rules we are – their farmers are subsidised by Norway not the EU and are not subject to all of the EU regs, they can fish in their own waters and don’t have to buy it outside – their health service os not regulated by the EU. I am speaking from experience not from what I have read or seen on TV. Speak to Norwegian people and hear their version. Having a smaller population makes them more successful ? Really? No one is blaming immigration for the deprivation in this country, and we all know that the banking industry worldwide caused the recession, we’ve been there before and no doubt it will happen again. But we will survive and be better off managing our own finances.
Apologies for all the typos, I have a new laptop and the keys are very small!
Re: my last post about hiding information from the ‘leave’ ministers and MP’s http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36268839 – I found my petition that still appears to be live, if you wish to participate. https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/end-the-censorship-of-information-on-the-eu-referendum-2.
I’ve just signed, I would urge everyone else on here to do the same, also reposted on my Facebook and twitter
But you just lied earlier that it wasn’t.
So which one is it then?
NHS AND THE EU.
The penny has just dropped.
Why does it appear to a large part of the general public that the government doesn’t seem to care about the problems facing the NHS and its staff?
The government know that if we stay in the EU it will be the end of the NHS as we know it.
We will have an open borders policy allowing a large influx of migrants, many who will have serious and long term illnesses.
Because of the serious nature of their condition, the migrants will go to the front of the NHS queue, causing more overloading of the already struggling Health Service with British Citizens (who have helped pay for the NHS all their lives) going to the back of the queue making us wait far longer for any treatment.
Once the migrants start seeking treatment the NHS will become a money pit with many millions of pounds needed to sustain any acceptable level of care.
If we leave the EU we can restrict immigration and we will save many millions of pounds that we pay to the EU each year. Both of these facts could be a double bonus for our beloved NHS which is still envied all over the world.
The NHS is just one important part of many things which could be improved by leaving the EU. We might even start regaining some of our British identity and pride instead of feeling racist if we just mention that we are proud to be British or we dare to fly a Union Jack, an England, Scotland or Welsh flag.
Let’s make Britain great again.
Absolutely Penny, Cameron and all his cronies will tell you they’re committed to the N.H.S. but considering their antics recently, can you believe a word they say? They say that leaving the E.U. would cause a terrible recession but that’s already been blown out of the water, IT WOULD NOT! It’s come to the point where I won’t listening to anything they say anymore, I’m sick and tired of their lies and corrupt arguments. Let’s get rid of the E.U. and all those that support it, including Cameron.
Penny I totally agree. If we remain in the EU we sacrifice the last vestiges of our freedom.
I took my Dad into hospital at 3 a.m a couple of weeks ago, the nurse was Spanish, the ward sister from the UK, the HCA for his bay was Portuguese and there was a cleaner – not sure where he was from. A couple of days later he had a French pacemaker put in by a Polish Cardiologist. My Dad relied on European immigrants working in the NHS that night.
Look at Austria yesterday, almost elected a far right candidate, could it be that they are disenchanted with the E.U.?
As I’ve said before “We may be the first to leave but we won’t be the last”
Bjays the far right would have won, except for the postal votes.
What I would like to have clarified is: Is it correct that we cannot deport convicted criminals (Murderers and rapists) from EU member countries when they have served their sentence. I believe this to be correct and it is my main concern, we must be able to protect the population especially the elderly and vulnerable
That’s correct.
David Cameron has loss focus ,the British government and British people should press for him to resign from the post of Prime minister.Our daughters ,elderly woman and young women are being rape and sexual abuse,the criminals are walking free because of the incompetent Consevative party ,that unable to control ,our borders.Criminals are going through countries,escape from law because of weaknesses of European union laws and regulations.Our Judicial system and British laws has been brutalized and hamper by having to follow Europe laws,incompetent Security measures in the European union.Terrorists are able to attack innocent civilians,thousands of young British citizens have go to Fight in Syria under David Cameron conservative government,with out able to do anything reasonable about it.Our Doctors from NHS ,engineers,Nurses,teachers etc British people European union is a total waste of resources,failure which is unable to protect,lives and property.The Laws on security should be reviewed which is impossible,when staying in the EU ,the asylum seekers acceptance should be reviewed which been exploited by people,criminals from Terrorists gangs and groups are using the opportunities of weak borders system,toothless immigration Laws to mingle with people claiming asylum in Britain.Dangerous men and women are free to carry out their deeds,without being checked,the other thing is,that dangerous criminals are impossible to remove from Britain soil because of the incompetent Laws in European Court of Justice,which can overrule and favour criminals.
Bottom line Whether now or tomorrow,the European union has come to its final end.
So don’t be afraid to vote for the freedom of your Children and a Better Britain.
Vote Leave.
Most UKIP voters are from remote towns where there are no immigrants.
Criminals are being apprehended BECAUSE of EU laws and cooperation between police.
You’re voting Leave out of ignorance.
You lot have nothing.
Adrian, how old are you? You write as though you are twelve years old in which case you can’t even vote. You call us ignorant, but you haven’t done your homework. Please stop ranting and start researching!
I’ll, back that. Adrian, I’m voting leave and I’m not a UKIP supporter. “Have nothing”? If you say that you haven’t, looked or listened.
There are plenty of reasons. I arrive at enough of a case for a leave vote before I get to weigh immigration issues. On which we do need better control.
Considering emigrating to New Zealand I faced a points system: whether the country wanted me was a criterion alongside whether I wanted to be there.
That seems sensible.
It’s the same in Australia Chris and in fact despite what remain people are saying its the same in Norway – as it should be here- nothing to do with racism just plain common sense. Most non EU countries insist on Visas and some EU countries are closing their borders putting extra pressure on others to take more refugees. “Not overcrowded” check populations – compare those with land mass – there are more people in London alone than the whole of Norway and services are strained to breaking point in many of our major cities.
The last comment re: overcrowding was for Adrian BTW
Adrian your comment “Most UKIP voters are from remote towns where there are no immigrants” you know this, do you? I live in London borough where there are many immigrants, and I can tell you there are plenty of people who are turning to U.K.I.P. It is true that criminals are being apprehended because of EU laws and cooperation between police but this doesn’t stop those with criminal records entering the U.K. do your homework please. We are not voting “Leave” out of ignorance, we are voting “Leave” so that those of you we leave behind will have a better future.
If we stay in the E.U. it’s YOU that will have nothing!
Well said Bjays
The issues on ground is not about racism or discrimination.The reality,is that no country irrespective of economic growth or developed or undeveloped can survive without changing its immigration rules.Without controlling the borders,its will effect our economic growth and public services,Health system,transportation, Housing etc As China is one of the World huge economics its immigration rules are in place to,control and protect the in flow of illegal immigrants from neighbouring countries.Australia also is doing the same,instead for some people to face reality,they have become European union apologizes,in support of David Cameron conservative government in turning Britain into a dumbing Yard of Europe and the World.Britain was not established and founded to become the graveyard of backwardness.We are a Great Nation,with be of great Heritage,cultural diversity,lovely character,tolerance .But despite that,it doesn’t matter what people say or opinions.We will not become European union concubine,to be exploited and used as they wish,every British citizens has the right of freedom and sovereignty to live in a Britain are NHS will be fully operational and staff.A Britain where British families can live in decent housing conditions,not overcrowded cities,cramped quarters.North English-speaking cities are bless populated,Wales is undeveloped,Leeds ,Birmingham,York,Belfast,Liverpool,is underdeveloped because the European union policies supporting concentration on London,because that where their contributions,unprofitable comes from.Why can’t people see reason.Thousands of illegal immigrants already within our borders.Overcrowded and overstretched public services. We are getting rebate and have asset to Economic of500 millions people in Europe.How far has that help us?People are still homeless,low income families,high taxes,wasted of British taxpayers money,brain drain,incompetent security,highly risk of terrorists attacks.Point of correction,British people who want to leave the European union are not racist or are sentimental.We want a free New Britain
You are not overpopulated and overstretched. You have 3 million of your own living away from Britain. London is somewhat but the country overall is not. Instead you have a low productivity economy (undercapitalized subsistance companies) that is unable to pay enough taxes to renew itself. Your underground was a laughingstock 12 years ago as well, there’s BBC documentaries from that era and then there was no such migration. Your economy simply does not generates the money to build houses, maintain education, police or health care or roads. The economic policies are geared towards producing economic activity at the expense of the broader costs that a society needs to maintain and renew itself. if you’d pay through taxation to the cost of a decent society you’d have a minute economic growth, that would not be acceptable for the showcase boasting that’s going on.
Gyorgy Gajdos you keep ranting and calling us names, no one is interested in your insults, have you been drinking?
The Telegraph understands around 100 Tory MPs could back a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister if Britain stays in the EU.
Backbenchers furious at the way Mr Cameron and his allies have conducted the referendum campaign are considering calling for him to go, even if he wins the June 23 vote by a significant margin.
Mr Cameron said today that he was just “doing my job” and argued he was achieving what he had promised as leader by giving voters a say on Britain’s EU membership.
Well! 100 Tory MPs could back a vote of no confidence in the P.M. if we stay in the E.U. That should tell us something! What with the Backbenchers also on the rampage, It looks like things are looking GOOD, crack open the bottle, CHEERS!
Cheers ,that’s good news.Bye bye to the European apologizes.There a circular pattern of around,that by leaving the European union,Britain will loose asset to a market of 500 million people.Point of clarification,Europe is not the largest economic in the World.Africa +Asia+South America has 10times the economic growth than European continent in terms of Human Resources,Natural Resources and Agricultural Resources .I spent Years in Africa and schooling there ,land of business opportunities,trade economic opportunities for thousands of British companies.Why am I saying this because,the notion is being given that by leaving the European union millions of British companies are going to close down.Unemployment with economic crisis.Britain has asset to the economic of more than 3.1Billion .Through partnerships,new economic trade treaty,Reshuffle out Foreign policies and government commitment break of European Dominion We have a better chance stop spreading l i e s
Good luck with Africa. GO!!! We want a functional EU without moles. GO!!!
The other major issue apart from immigration and security, is Agricultural land and our farmers. From my research I learned that we pay £6 billion into CAP and our farmers, recently receive £3 million into Subsidy peanuts from the European union. Is it true? How are British farmers and families coping under the umbrella of EU legislation. Big business and food stores are ripping our farmers dry. Our Farmers going to be better off 100 %.I think so Another thing which, I don’t know is about our fishing industry, fisheries. Do we have total control of our territorial waters to boost our fish industries
The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) has released a report suggesting that the UK leaving the European Union could lead to austerity being extended by two years.
Note they said “COULD”
The IFS actually said that the extra period of austerity would be between one and two years.
It suffers from the same uncertainties involved in all economic forecasting. Most of these so called forecast institutions couldn’t forecast that Wednesday follows Tuesday.
I’ll admit that if we leave the E.U. perhaps there will have to be more cuts, the country is up to it’s neck in debt but, I think it’s worth the price to take back control, rather than continue on the slope to disaster. If anyone thinks this latest period of austerity has been difficult, I would say, “If we stay in the E.U. you ain’t seen nothing yet”
British people should wake and learn to start doing the odd jobs,which European people and immigrants are willing to do.There is pride in work.Does who like to work for two days a week,three a week ,I don’t have anything against them.But if other people are willing to clean our Toilets,be carers,support workers and the lot of odd jobs.Why can’t we British do them?Immigration is taking its toil on our housing,NHS ,public services,transportation etc British people need to learn and adjust to change,government can introduce pay for family carers instead of employing thousands of Cheap workers from the European union we can take care of our grandparents,we can add that to our culture.What are the Care Homes doing ,that everybody can’t do? British people are wasting Billions of money Yearly to pay,other people to take care of our own parent and disabled people.In home cares we save us,up to £1billionYearly.The jobs which British people are unwilling to do government can make it more attractive with more pay,higher wages and short hours.The are many holes in the economic,which can only be blocked by leaving the European union.Others thing which will save us money if Britain leaves the European union,is we should stop wasting money on security and foreign wars in Iraq,Libya Immigrants crisis in Greece,Turkey,NATO etc Lastly we should stop wasting money on Foreign Aid to African continent,Middle east,Sacrifice on savng immigrants.We British families ,need help but are neglected and government commitment is to the European apologizes club to follow,what they think is only right.As a saying goes,we can’t be doing the same thing over and over again and expect better results.British system is rigidity,needs reformation,Reshuffle,and transformation.
Vote Leave without fear for aNew Britain!!!
Sheffield – I also have a huge stake in the caring profession, an ex GP presently working for a charity for children, I am well aware of the input from other countries inside and outside of the EU. I can assure you that those people you speak of will not have to leave, and those who want to come will still be allowed entry if they meet the criteria. I suspect it will be similar to other countries with points systems in which case where there are vacancies that are not filled by Brits they will be advertised elsewhere. Saying we have to return teachers, doctors, nurses and carers is all part of the scare campaign, and it’s really sad to see that some people are actually listening to this. My husband is a lecturer in one of the top agricultural colleges in the UK, many of his colleagues are not British, but they will stay too and the UK will do what it has always done – fill vacancies from overseas – the purpose of slowing immigration is to stop those who come her jobless with no intention to work or with more sinister plans. Please do not listen to all the scaremongering – or the fact that concessions will protect us. The European parliament haven’t even agreed on the so called concessions yet – they will vote AFTER the referendum.
According to Farmer’s weekly – The EU directive on how we must plant and grow cabbages involves 10 times more words than the Magna Carta, I wonder how many people it took to write that and at what cost?
What I will like to know is that are our farmers more better off with the money they’re receiving from the Subsidy, they are been payed through the CAP by the European union? Our we benefiting much from our territorial waters, are our fisheries industries profitability in the European union at risk or causing hindrances to expansion to growth with European union laws and regulations. All countries in the world, can not survive without immigration and emigration, or on its own workforce development alone. But it much be able to control it’s borders and trade to be able decide who should come in and who is contributing to the economic growth. And who is going to be liabilities on taxpayers money. We need Doctors, nurses, engineers, skilled workforce etc balance the short fall in the workforce in Britain. And at the same time, not to be turned in a dumbing ground for any country. Sorry to say am not a racist or self centre or self fish British citizen, but the truth had to be said, there are thousands of thousands people currently in the United Kingdom, who don’t have business in our country. United Kingdom is not a specialist Hospital, where everyone one should come with their problems to solve, the forgein Aid has to stop, benefits system needs to be addressed and reformed, hard working British people and committed immigrants who are skilled in their different fields are paying tax and contributing to the pot. But some people think that Britain owns them freedom and paradise. Our Farmers are br exploited, our country is slowly be taking over by strangers. Young people and graduates are out of jobs. Where are we going? Vote Leave for freedom in our country
We should leave the EU and put a stop to the immigration free for all. If we need workers for certain jobs, we should offer places to those with a genuine need, rather than letting them drown in the Mediterranean. Why is a Latvian labourer better than one from Libya? Is this not racist?
Why is supposedly a British worker better then a Latvian, is this not racism?
Here is something I had forgotten about, the ESM (European Stability Mechanism). One of those things that will no doubt re-surface if we decide to stay. If you have always fancied having ‘complete immunity’, I would get your job applications in now.
Europe should stop fancying about any external immigration helping us, yes. The way Europe does it anyway, it’s always the 2nd best. I am not saying you shouldn’t help people, of course I dont. But the way Union handles it is stupid and inconsistent. Not any immigration is helpful
Europe has to pull it’s head off the hole and intensify it’s actions external it’s borders.
Juncker must stop drinking so heavily and stop bitch slapping my countryman comissars, or I will return a favor someday. If Katainen can’t find a man in himself to give a fist to Junckers face (no he can’t), and break the bastards face to pieces, it’s up to citizens to put things straight. And they have all the right to do that correction.
The reason why we don’t have a European Army and European external Border is mostly Britain. I hope once we get rid of them and we can fulfill the EU to a full United States of Europe.
What a farce . You can argue forever about the nhs , education , human rights , but the one question I would like to ask is ,CAN WE CHANGE ANYTHING WHILE WE ARE STILL IN THE EU ? Cameron told us out and out lies . He said he had made great progress ,in actual fact he achieved nothing . Why won’t someone just tell us the truth . I’m voting out , the damn lies we are getting from the Torres is scandalous . If you are voting to remain you need sectioning . God help us if we vote to remain .
I must have overlooked something and my previous comment is not waiting for acceptance of Messrs Juncker and Katainen. In our free, democratic EU? Oh! Is it so free and democratic that a citizen can’t criticise Junckers behavior honestly and openly? Is he some kind of God? Of course he’s not, but subject to normal European criminal law. And, I vainly hope, to normal civil code of conduct. Be that the PM of Hungary or anyone.
You can’t speak one and do other, Bryssel
BR. from Finland
Because its a lie, like just about everything from Uk towards Europe. You and anyone can criticize Mr Junkers as much as they like.
If we truly love immigrants coming to our why not doing some soild and meaningful for countries and people who are bend on ready to put their lifes in danger in order to reach our shore. Why let thousands of people die in the Mediterranean Sea. Why causing problems by following America and European union counterparts in Supporting war and bombing Iraq, Syria and Libya. Don’t does who hid behind the Walls of Westminster and Brussels, no that the war in Iraq Afghanistan, Syria and Libya is going to continue to cause inflow of thousands upon thousands of refugees towards Europe. Why can’t government especially British government reason clearly with their heads not hands, that by following the forgein policymakers in Brussels to continuing bombing Middle East and North Africa is going to be a pain in our back. The second issue is whether we stay in our economic crisis has just started, we will be forced by Brussels to take in thousands of refugees, whether we like it or not the inflow of people from the European union is going to be a pain in the neck time’s 2 .When Turkey joins are woes will be plenty .Then the British people case will be like the chicken catch between the Devil and the deep blue Sea.
I am not the only who will be affected our children will blame us, our great grand children will blame us. Future generations will blame us for the wrong choice we made by making the wrong choice because some politicians and government who are beneficial of EU legislation. OUR Future generations will blame us, we didn’t stand up and fight for the British freedom. Nobody can bully me, because I have freedom of information and speech.
Vote Leave not to regret when it’s too late! !!
Can you imagine how the E.U. will react if we vote to stay in? they will have us by the balls, that is if they think we had any in the first place, they will walk all over us. I bet they can’t wait see us capitulate, they’ll be laughing all the way to the bank. Future generations will look back on this and think “what the hell were we all thinking about to give up our freedom, we must have been all mad”
However, I hope and pray that the future generations will look back on this with pride and knowing, that despite all adversity, lies and scare mongering we faced, we stood up for them whatever the cost, with the determination to pass on the “FREEDOM” that we enjoyed and fought for.
Yes, out we can expect to be hated, and it won’t be much different if we are in (for causing trouble and for not being “whole hearted”.for a start.
But there is this odd scenario: if we vote “remain” only by a small majority, a giant chunk of the country will remain disaffected…
The split Tory party will be in civil war, the Labour party will be in the middle of a dirty fight to replace their leader who has alienated so many. The Lib-Dems will remain marginal having been hammered for being in coalition with the Conservatives. That leaves… a massive UKIP vote. Now if they get the government, even for one term, we might not need a referendum to leave.the EU
It would just be a manifesto pledge, fulfilled.
Agree with you Totally Bjays.
I am a Brexit and have been since the word GO. I am a tory voter also so can anyone including Mr Cameroon answer this for me please.
why (see the Daily Mail Saturday 21st May) do we have an immigrant living in our country who has been given a 400k house to live in gets 2K a month in benefits even though he is a convicted cocaine dealer. i didn;t read the article, the headline was enough for me but i am reliably informed from a friend that he is also a double murderer in his own country. However!!!! it appears we are not able to remove him from our country because of his Human Rights. who makes up these laws, the EU ? how many more of these undesirables are we going to get if we stay in the EU, how the hell are we ever going to get rid of them, if this was a British person they would be in prison yet because of the EU we keep his poor excuse for a human being in luxury at our own expense. they must be laughing at us all the way to be bank.
VOTE LEAVE, GIVE US BACK OUR COUTRY, GIVE US BACK OUR LAWS
Am I going mad . The remain group are saying if we remain we can negotiate better terms for Britain . What planet are these people on . We have to get 27 other countries to agree to our proposals , it is never going to happen . Maybe I am mad and everybody else is sane .
Its just more propaganda – the “concessions won by Dodge Dave” haven’t even been ratified – voting doesn’t take place until after the referendum – of course they may change their minds.. or am I being over cynical?
Its just more propaganda – the “concessions won by Dodgy Dave” haven’t even been ratified – voting doesn’t take place until after the referendum – of course they may change their minds.. or am I being over cynical?
It will because we are the stoner country, David Cameron managed to get special concessions for us. Will you be part of a hate, descriminatory, division is and racist atitudes? Voting in Leave, it’s the same as voting Donald Trump.
Chris Brown I agree with everything you say there, the only think that gives me heart is the fact that should we remain in the EU we may have another chance to leave after the next General Election – I don’t want my children and grandchildren to hate me for letting them down!
One more example of “image adjusting by the EU for the UK referendum.
By EU rules Spain and Portugal are due massive fines for not keeping to EU debt rules (like fining someone in debt really helps….) but this decision, and hence associated news headlines has been put off until *after* the UK vote.
No sense in making the EU powers look too extensive when it might influence some people’s thinking while they can still have some influence.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/18/european-commission-spain-portugal-budget-deficits-pierre-moscovici
Unstable Eurozone: see.
Greece problem not solved: they’ve just been given a LOAN to pay back interest on their existing LOANS. If that was tried on an individual it would be a crime.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/09/greece-financial-emergency-tragic-absurd-imf-debt-relief
Italy’s banks in trouble (but keep quiet about it to avoid panic)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/10/battle-prop-up-italy-banks-eu-brexit-grexit-bad-loans
Risky to leave? More than risky to stay!
Remain in Europe, means secure our jobs and the future of our children. Hate campaign is based, in difamation of caractér, lies, abuse, division is among ourselves, and shameful racist atitudes, what we can expect from Boris Johnson and Ukip. Boris Johnson, criticises europeans, make them as scape goats, while he himself is an american citizen, born in USA, now was granted british citizenship. He spit in plate that he eat.
I was deeply disturbed by the EU debate on the BBC last night – half the young people there didn’t know the difference between Europe and the EU, one wanted to remain because her mobile phone charges will go down, and many thought leaving the EU meant we couldn’t holiday in Europe – Brits have been taking holidays abroad long before we entered the EU with no hindrance whatsoever and even if they introduce visas – so what? Just makes us all safer!
The quality of understanding and the level of issues raised by the students was abysmal.. But as Saatchi and Saatchi recently appallingly but correctly pointed out, one vote is one vote. It’s an anomaly of most forms of democracy.
Mind you, the politicians weren’t a lot better.
Open borders will be the ruination of our country. Merkel has said quite clearly “Freedom of movement is NOT open for negotiation” So what will it take before we leave the E.U. do we need more bombing attacks in London as in 2005? NO! At the moment we have Cameron and a Government that has betrayed us and likewise other Governments in the past. Cameron and others like him from whatever political party don’t live in our world, mass immigration doesn’t affect them, they can afford to pay for their health service and buy houses for their children, they only seem to want what’s best for them to make them richer. When they retire they can bugger off and live abroad in their ivory mansions.
So, what our options in the future? Unless there are some honest radical changes I’ll not support the Conservatives, Labour or Liberals, none of them seem to have a clue how to run our country, they never listen to the people, and always think that know what’s best for us and invariably are WRONG.
Despite the smears, U.K.I.P. seems to be the only radical option at the moment.
Well if we don’t win and stay in the EU, UKIP isn our only option!
Lisa, Please tell me, I’m always open to suggestoins.
Hi
Leave campaign is based in hate, division is and racist atitudes, I do not want to be associated with that! We cannot put Europeans, as scape goats, leave campaign do that. It’s a shameful atitude, Boris Johnson and Ukip, do not have nothing to offer us, as ” politicians “, voting in leave campaign, it’s the same as voting in Donald Trump. Same attitude.
Well, it seems that Dodgy Dave may have also heard he’s on his way to a vote of no confidence. Last night he was forced to concede that Britain is an “amazing country” capable of building a future outside the EU. In a coded admission that his scaremongering about cutting ties with Brussels may have gone too far, the Prime Minister accepted that the UK’s “brilliant economy” was strong enough to survive whatever the result of the EU referendum.”We can find our way whatever the British people choose,” he said.
.We all know that Dave, it’s you and your cronies that have been running our country down, a Prime Minister should have faith in his country, which obviously you haven’t. At last I think that maybe, just maybe, he’s just got the message “We’re not falling his claptrap” As I said before, if he thinks the E.U. is so great, he should go and live in Europe and take all his cronies with him, WE DON’T NEED YOU!
He was only “forced to concede” cause your’re so massively xenophobic that you have be told this way. Check the sterling today.
Hi guys
As a brit myself, I only see benefits being in EU
Free moviment of both sides.
No visas, travel whenever you want, without burocracy.
Amazingly cheap holidays in Europe, i’m a playboy, I love Ibiza.
You can exchange universities, without paying high fees, or totally free.
You can work anywhere in Europe, without burocracy.
Being in Europe, we count with best security allies ( France, Germany, Russia, etc.. ), together we defeat terrorism.
Being in Europe, we can extradite criminals and deport them easily, thanks do David Cameron, he managed to conquer some special deal in Europe, only for UK.
Together we have a strong market, more job prospectus, and we fight recession.
If brexit occur, your job, could be at stake, serious risk of become unemployed, there is only one way to protect and secure it, vote Remain.
Major companies and bank in UK, in case of brexit, they will move abroad, to avoid higher taxes ( Santander, Loyds, etc.. ).
Today exist more brits living and working in europe countries ( around 5 million ), than europeans living here in uk ( 2.2 million ).
David Cameron, made special deals with Europe, that allows us control our borders and at same time enjoying the hugely benefits of being .
No more roaming abroad, talk as much you want, no roaming charges at all.
We can count with United States, protecting our troops in war, if we leave Europe, we will be isolated, without the help of USA, Russia, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, Spain, etc… in other words we will be in a big MESS, alone fighting terrorism and wars, WE HAVE A NICKNAME TODAY: ” DESERTERS.
We need more Europe, than they need us, look at NHS, 80% of doctors and nurses are foreign, mostly from European countries, in care home industry, exist more than 100 thousand European carers looking after our elderly relatives, our fellow britts, do not enjoy this kind of passionate job, Europeans do it, they work hard, they pay higher taxes, they contribute for daily development of our country, while some britts pass all day sitting at home on state benefits, smoking and being binge drinkers, with our money from taxes, the Europeans came to this country for hard work, they are behind of heaviest jobs of our tests, morrissons, sainsbury supermarkets. They come to this country to work hard.
Scotland, Wales, Irland, car manufacturers, travel companies ( Easy jet, Virgin, Ryanair, Monarch, etc… ), steel industry, all back Remain Campaign, so do we most of us, want secure jobs.
We do not spend 350 million pound, it’s a nonsense lie.
Pension isto will be worse off, if brexit happen.
We would fail into deep recession, less money in your pocket, means less food in your table, higher food cost, higher bills ( electricity and water bills ).
Leaving EU, it criate an economical shock, instability.
Several of your arguments for staying in the are feeble and are born out of self interest, and I quote “Amazingly cheap holidays in Europe, i’m a playboy, I love Ibiza” the rest are purely suppositions fed to you by others, NONE OF THESE ARE FACTS. If that were not so, why did Cameron say this week “the UK’s “brilliant economy” was strong enough to survive whatever the result of the EU referendum.”We can find our way whatever the British people choose” At last he admitted the TRUTH.
“As a brit myself, I only see benefits being in EU”
I’m sorry, but you can’t have looked very hard.
Many of the Pro camp are on record as saying the EU is in need of major reform, the problem being that it has in the past demonstrated a massive opposition to reform, by denial, by inertia or worse.
It’s no longer just a free trade area, a “Common Market” as it was falsely sold to the British population in 1975.
From lack of democracy to centralising control demonstrated, to quotes from EU leaders on how they prefer to avoid listing to their populations, to how Ireland was treated over the Lisbon Treaty referendum, to the number of unpleasant issues somehow being deferred until *after* the British referendum, lest they reveal the EU’s character too much, too soon.
(Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece.. there’s more news coming that the remain camp is not keen on shouting about.)
The EU is not a pretty picture.
I’ve just read your post in full and wonder where you live? 80% of NHS staff (doctors and nurses) from abroad? I think this is a) wrong and b) irrelevant, in or out of the EU we will still have skilled migrants. Most of the Brexit people are not against immigration at all, what we are against is the unfairness whereby a highly qualified doctor from Australia has to go through hoops to come here, but a non English speaking European can just walk and demand housing, education, NHS services etc., The rules should apply to all.
Yes there are some people who could work but don’t, it’s time they were made to work in order to receive benefit and there are plenty of things our own unskilled people could do, but that’s for another day.
You keep saying “Europe” – Europe is where we are geographically it’s not the same thing as the EU. More secure in Europe because of Russia? They are not a part of the EU and their stance is not that of an ally, Japan? USA? they are not part of of Europe – well they weren’t last time I looked! .
There are as many businessmen saying leave as there are saying go.. so why quote these figures? As for Lloyds and Santander leaving the UK – Santander is a Spanish Bank so hardly relevant.
There may be a wobble when we first leave, but you have been listening to scaremongering – Germany will lose far more than we do if we leave, they need to continue to deal with us in or out, but we don’t need to give them control over us to make deals.
You have been brainwashed my young friend and I am afraid for your future and how you will cope if we become just another state in the Unites States of Europe – the European army they speak of will probably include conscription.. are you ready to serve Germany?
Your be honest we don’t have a Prime minister incompetent in Britain.The Prime minister and conservative government has let the British people down,by not fully and clearly fighting for our freedom,Sovereignty and independence.The other thing is the level of political Knowledge of the British Young people(16-27).The are being splash around with wrong information,one was ask the the reason She wants to Stray in the European union,she said because,her moblie phone charge will be low.How ridiculous it sounds in the ears? The Youths don’t have a clue about what matters for their future.
Some don’t even know the difference between Europe and European union.Russia,Turkey,Iceland,Liechtenstein,Albania,Switzerland,Maccedonia,and Montenegro,Ukraine etc Some British Young people deserve to know the truth.They know basic information about what is relevant because of the confusion of Figures and statistics.Some people even think Libya and Egypt are part of Europe
Leave campaign, are descriminatory, abusive and racist . They verbally attack inocentes britts and make europeans as a scape goat, for our country economical failures. I do not want to be associated, with this kind of campaign, where Boris Johnson and Ukip, are creating divisionism among ourselves, as britts and europeans. As a brit myself, I have moral values to defend, hate, abuse, divionism and racism atitudes, from Leave Campaign, do not have place, in our society.
To me the Government in Brussels has given or promise ,our government some juicy cakes.If not why all the misinterpretation and fear tratic .The Clue David Cameron conservative government is giving us,is that the European union is the only major market,which Britain can trade with in the World.The other lies,is that we can’t get skilled labour force from elsewhere like India,Australia,Africa and South America.Africa is a Market of more than 1.1billion people not,added Aisa and Australia.Let’s stop the lies and propaganda.Vote Leave!!!!!
Don’t get worry about the Remaining campaign or Whatever? They have lose focus and bearings.There calculations are misleading information,they argument is hatred fear,and treat .When you have a Prime minister who can’t defend the interest of his people.o!!!
What a shame? What i don’t understand is if this European Referendum ,is for David Cameron conservative party or for the British people ?
The “Remain Campaingn” are now trying the fear factor on our youngsters.
Ed Miliband has said: “Today is a call to arms to all young people to register to vote. Let’s be clear about the danger – a decision not to vote is a decision to let someone else decide your future. Young people can decide this referendum. If they don’t use their vote, the danger is this referendum will be lost. He added: “When the Leave campaign is asked about the future – future jobs, future opportunities, future growth – they have one answer: they just don’t know.
“Those words should ring in the ears of every child, student and parent. Not knowing is not a path to prosperity, not knowing is the road to recession.”
Mr Miliband also told BBC Breakfast that polls suggested younger people were more likely to vote to remain in the EU by three to one, and that older people should “heed the wisdom of the young”.
He added: “All round the world young people are kicking against the establishment, and yet young people want to back Remain.
So, what he’s really saying is “If we can persuade the youngsters to vote and frighten them into voting to remain, we can win”
What should ring in the ears of every child, student and parent is the “TRUTH” NO ONE KNOWS what will happen if we leave, unless Miliband is in touch with God. All we really know is what’s happening NOW, and it’s NOT GOOD! and it certainly won’t get any better if we stay in the E,U.
“Wisdom of the young” you pillock!, wisdom comes with age and experience, as you get older you learn to see through persuasive self interest claptrap. I say to the young, “Do your research, we only want what’s best for you and give you the opportunity to live in the same FREE society that we have fought for and enjoyed in the past. IT’S YOUR CHOICE, PLEASE USE IT WISELY.
Ed Millband is a confusionist who doesn’t know what he is saying. It’s a pity that this is the group of political leaders, who are ruling Britain. Vision less and misleading leaders. Why use treat and fear tratic on unpolluted minds?Why are they’re they taking the European union Refefurudum personal? The sensitivity of the matter is that the impression that the Brussels beneficiaries what to make is the healthiest place to be is the European union. The are bunch of racists and abusers of Human rights. If not why harassment of Young people. Why distribution of hate posters? Why are they favourite of European counterparts than other people from over the Commonwealth coming to UK, to contribute towards our economy. People with skills and experience. The facts about European union only is the healthiest place to trade is totally wrong. God save us from all the Lions in humans skin. Vote Leave don’t mortgage your future and future of unborn generations.!!!Don’t listen to lies please.
It is easier to find a score of men wise enough to discover the truth than to find one intrepid enough, in the face of opposition, to stand up for it.
David Cameron must accept the failure of the government’s manifesto pledge to reduce migration into the UK, Johnson and Gove have said.
Well, I think that’s pretty obvious, it would be more to the point if they had asked him to accept the fact that he knew it was impossible to keep when he made it.
Come on now! Credit where credits due, Cameron’s already admitted this week that the UK’s “brilliant economy” was strong enough to survive whatever the result of the EU referendum” but twice in a week? I think that’s expecting TOO MUCH!
What about the migration from non-EU countries that he supposedly controls? Non EU migrants are more numerous then EU migrants. What is this if not xenophobic, anti-European racism?
What about the non EU migration which is actually larger and still nobody cares for it? You are just plain anti-Europeans.
Former Prime Minister Tony Blair has said leaving the EU would create “an enormous economic problem” following any Brexit vote on 23 June.
Going by Tony Blair’s past performance, I’m surprised he’s got the gall to even show his face, let alone stick in his two penneth. In case you haven’t notice Tony, but of course you wouldn’t with all your wealth, we already have an enormous economic problem, it’s called the E.U.
I don’t think that many will be influenced by his opinions.
According to B.B.C. as of the 16th May 164 Conservative M.P.s are for staying.
131 Conservative M.P.s are for leaving.
Does not include those that have not declared their position.
Now, that should tell us something, I think it’s reasonable to suspect that those who haven’t declared their position are for leaving but don’t want to rock their boat.
ONCE AGAIN, LOOKING AFTER NUMBER ONE.
Could someone please explain me why there is so much mistrust in the European cooperation? I don’t get it. There are failures in the EU system, sure. But some beaurocracy or this claimed loss in decision participation cannot be the core behind the debates (there are veto rights for national governments in the largest part of EU policies). What is really going on?
What’s really going on is we are being sold down the river, with lies and propaganda rife, a smoke screen has been created.. ask yourself why the EU have not voted on the concessions allegedly won? and why they are leaving it until after the referendum… our PM is looking out for himself not us, but he appears to have fallen on his own sword – many in his own party no longer trust him..http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/28/tory-mp-andrew-bridgen-says-david-cameron-is-finished-as-party-l/
So you say, it’s rather some inner-Tory power play at the expense of European cooperation? Great politics. Certainly not in the interest of the people. Leave will damage the relation to European allies while Remain supports smoky Cameron. Both no good decisions…
Very simple; millions of people from my father’s generation gave their lives so we don’t have to take orders from Berlin. To continue doing so now is disrespectful to them, their families and the sacrifices they all made to protect our freedom
So EU membership means taking orders from Berlin? Why do you think so? Germany is just one of 28 member states. Its influence in the EU should be not so different from that of Britain.
Peter, “There are failures in the EU system, sure.” is on a par with “the Titanic had a leak.
The state of the EU (28) is bad enough politically and economically, though you’d have to go hunting for that but, worse, the EU leadership continues to have both expansion and closer union as its goals, even though that can do little but worsen the situation. There is a “group think” perspective locked in at the highest levels (It’s not too difficult to find revealing quotations) which leads to a refusal to think, and a desire to ignore the voting populations of the EU when they don’t behave as desired.
This leads to a policy of “smoke and mirrors”.
No “ever-closer union” was mentioned in 1975 when the British were sold, falsely only a “Common Market” (the EEC).
Something similar is happening again. Various moves and events which would put the EU in an unfavourable light are being being deferred so that they are not news prior to the British referendum. Issues with Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece…for a start.
The EU is not to be trusted to be open and clear with the public that it does not want VOTING. Look what happened to Ireland over the Lisbon treaty, ( and may yet happen with Holland over the Ukraine.
J-C Juncker’s “We are observing an increasing gap between public opinions and the European policy-makers.” did not come with the slightest thought that that might mean the policy-makers might be mistaken in their methods and goals.
Or his notorious “When it becomes serious, you have to lie.” (2011, Greek crisis)
On the Lisbon treaty, and playing down its significance
“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,
If we remain in, voting in and for the UK parliament will have less and less significance. “Influence from the inside” and “reform” are both non-starters.
With 8 other countries, perhaps something could have been done. With 27 other countries and plans to increase, no. The preponderance of newer smaller countries (with a voting system weighted in their favour) are highly unlikely to see the desires and needs of the UK as a priority. And the higher echelons of the EU hierarchy certainly don’t have that perspective. The have their goal and democracy is to be dealt with if necessary. Juncker again.
“There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties”
(Original quote in French: Il ne peut y avoir de choix démocratique contre les traités européens…)
I have nothing against Europe. The EU is something else entirely.
Chris, as sad as it is, ‘smoke and mirrors’ is used everywhere in politics, not only by EU ‘defenders’. We all know that, Johnson for sure, as well as Cameron does. That does not excuse anything, but if it is used onesided to blame Juncker’s very open statements other politicians would never have admitted, I start getting sceptic. Would Juncker have pointed that out publicly, if his intention would have been to mask the iceberg on the horizon?
Lisbon-EU(28) is a tanker of high inertia. Exactly that is the logic behind “closer union”: to simplify European decision processes. Juncker’s statement on that (in the context of last years asylum crisis): “There is a lack of Europe in the EU and there is a lack of union in the EU.” Further enlargement is put into cold storage. The Turkish government is blamed and blamed and staved off in hope that someday it will itself drop its accession application.
Meanwhile, further cooperation is announced by Hollande and Merkel. You assume that this cooperation will be even less legitimate by the European electorate than Lisbon decisions because of Juncker’s anti-democratic views of European policy and the group thinking of the other governments. That would be tragic, but it is not that likely in my view. The European Parliament was strengthened from treaty to treaty. So will it probably in the next step, precisely because the EU has to tackle its ligitimacy crises causing the actual wishes for national souvereignty. Otherwise, it will really hit the iceberg with LePen, Wilders, etc. taking over and the danger of new inner-European conflicts we did not face for decades now. I sincerely hope that Merkel and company share this view, but I am not as pessimistic as you are in that point. What I read about that up to now is that there are suggestions to further include national parliamentarians in the European legislative and to further empower EU-parliamentarians of Euro states as for as it considers currency-related decisions.
Apart from parliamentary representation, the existing instrument of European Citizens’ Initiative could be strengthened and EU-wide referenda could replace the national ones in single countries (which were often quite biased by national politics totally independent from the voted-on topic, see the recent Ukraine association referendum in the Netherlands) for general questions. That would not only legitimace European politics but also contribute to European identity.
Here we are at the core of the British debate, right? Do the British people really want European identity? As you wrote, 1975 EEC referendum was not about “ever closer union”. A good part of the Lisbon treaty is that it offers each country the right to leave the EU. In my view, this underlines that the EU is in its core a club of liberal national democracies and not at all a Soviet style dictatorship as some people like to claim. UK government chose to use its right and now is holding its referendum. I am sure, the EU will respect any outcome and Berlin will not send any troops ;-)
It is vital for the European concept to not further force policies on nation states as the Greek debt tragedy prominently shows (some temporarily return to the Drachme as parallel currency would have been much easier). Tsipras could have hold a referendum on EU membership, but the Greece goverment chose ‘Remain’ despite the IMF/EU/ECB policies. I am quite sure, there have been some promises behind closed doors. And I sincerely hope that the Lisbon treaty follow-up will not only contain some exception from the no-bail-out clause financed by the rescue fonds, but also a process of regulated bank insolvency. Eurogroup, including notorious Schäuble, already agreed on the term ‘unbearable’.
Anyhow, I wish you all the best if you should decide to leave, but would be happy, if the British people would decide to stay despite all the Brussels shambles. The British sense for democracy would be salutary for the coming debates. Best wishes from Germany.
Peter, so pleased to hear from someone elsewhere in Europe. From my days working as a contractor for Airbus I have fond memories of Bremen & Hamburg; also my niece married a German & now lives near Stuttgart.
Problem here is a system which allows decisions taken by a nation’s sovereign parliament to be overruled by politicians from another country or group of countries. This undermines the fundamental principles of democracy & nationhood and ultimately results in the disenfranchisement of the electorate.
@Peter there’s a lot of insight in your post.
The European Parliament was strengthened from treaty to treaty. So will it probably in the next step, precisely because the EU has to tackle its ligitimacy crises causing the actual wishes for national souvereignty.
It probably will, but what is it that’s still so sorely missing in the EU parliament’s catalogue of competences? Primarily, that would be the right to actually initiate legislation alongside with the commission. A nice to have, to be sure. But it’s not going to be a game changer. This deficiency is not as big as certain people make it out to be, many of whom at their heart are nothing more than petty nationalists with very limited factual knowledge, looking for an excuse to bash the EU. Even today, there is no EU legislation past the EU parliament – period. Anything unsavoury proposed by the Commission – either Parliament or Council, both elected bodies, would invariably shoot it down. What else? Perhaps let Parliament elect the Commission directly, and establish something like a government bloc and an opposition bloc. Well, the EU Parliament surely wouldn’t mind that. The thing is, people more than superficially familiar with the EU’s construction will realize that it’s by no means the EU and its institutions themselves who so jealously guard against that. It’s the member nations, and the UK in particular is of course at the forefront of opposition. That the way the EU works, it’s the independent nations that form the EU that all have to agree to give the EU institutions just enough power to do what they’re supposed to do, and not an inch more. The EU itself, as in the institutions agreed upon by 28 sovereign nations, cannot assume power, or give itself more power. You have a very useful term in German describing just that: Kompetenz-kompetenz. The EU doesn’t have it, probably won’t ever have it, which is why it’s silly and laughable to call it an evil super-state or the EUSSR.
Apart from parliamentary representation, the existing instrument of European Citizens’ Initiative could be strengthened and EU-wide referenda could replace the national ones in single countries (which were often quite biased by national politics totally independent from the voted-on topic, see the recent Ukraine association referendum in the Netherlands) for general questions. That would not only legitimace European politics but also contribute to European identity.
As nice a thought as EU-wide referenda are, they’re downright impossible, for the very reasons outlined above. The EU is a body formed by independent nation states, established as a contract under international law, in which said nation states have agreed to delegate certain competences (most of which are of an administrative rather than a fundamental nature) to a supranational body – until they choose to cancel this delegation. As the UK is going to do (hopefully). In order to allow a binding pan-European referendum to take place, all EU nation states would first have to yield their absolute national sovereignty to begin with, which in turn would in all states require a change of constitution and a national referendum in most. How likely is that.
As for national referendums, of course you’re right there, unless they are part of the customary legislative process like in Switzerland, they’re merely an opportunity to shout ‘Fcuk you’ in the face of their current government with little regard for the actual point in question.
Lisa, Couldn’t have said it beter, if his own party don’t trust him, why in God’s name should we?
sorry for the typo “better”
Precisely, he lied to his constituents when he first became MP for Oxford, saying he was in support of Brexit and the years have shown that was only the beginning.. “all in this together” he said.. reminds me of “some is more equal than others”
Tom Davies I totally agree, I find it quite distressing that we have a PM who would tell the young otherwise.
Well said Chris Brown.
Peter, are you seriously suggesting Berlin is not running the show? Greece elected an anti-austerity government and were then told by Merkel and others to continue as before. Do you consider this a good example of democracy in action? First Greece, then Portugal, Spain, Italy? They are being very clever this time, half of Europe under the jackboot without a tank or plane in sight but don’t be fooled the objective is still the same
Tom, Berlin is just part of the show. How should the German government rule 27 democratically elected governemnts? That would be against each nations interest. They are free to decide. They neither have to ask Berlin nor can be forced be Merkel and company.
If Greece would have elected an anti-austerity government, it would have stopped the austerity measures. It chose not to do so. Nobody forced the Tsipras government to accept the IMF/EU/ECB offer. His government was and still is free to leave the EU following Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, just as the UK is. They could reintroduce the Drachme if they would want.
“Greece elected an anti-austerity government and were then told by Merkel and others to continue as before.”
Next time I’m in a restaurant with a couple of friends, we’ll all cast vote in the end and very democratically decide we’re not going to pay. Should work, unless the the landlord happens to be an anti-democratic pig and a bully.
Interesting idea Blugalf, But you’d have to add that the restaurant owner had lent you the money to eat at the restaurant, already knowing that you couldn’t pay it back.
The admission of Greece to the EU and Eurozone was a political decision, for which EU rules were bent (broken, really). The flaw didn’t show up quickly in economic good times.
Greece is not “fixed” in the slightest, and its leaving the Euro (almost certainly) if not the EU (quite likely) remain the most likely resolutions.
To take a country as an individual, as you did: lending someone money to make the repayment instalments on the loans they already have outstanding would be considered either stupid or criminal.
That’s where most of the latest “bail-out” money is going.
It’s not much of a job of bailing-out in a boat if you are going to have to put all the water back in the boat at some point.
But no-one can face the fact that Greece is incapable of repaying its debt, especially with the wrecked economy that austerity measures have produced.(The IMF is something of an exception: )
The problem is only deferred, and somewhat worsened, by this recycling of debt with further loans. The Euro cannot work adequately for economies as separated as Germany and Greece, except by the flow of money from Germany to Greece, which German tax-payers have noted and have had enough of.
But letting Greece default and leave, apart from being painful for the banks etc. holding Greek debt, was politically unacceptable for the “EU project” as it would set a precedent. As it is this policy of “kicking the can down the road” is almost certain to cost more because of the “putting off”. As in someone covering credit card debt with new credit cards.
Google … Greek debt impossible… or … latest on Greek debt…
Risky to leave EU? I rate it a lot more risky to stay.
You could always adopt the EU philosophy; when you have so much debt you have no chance of ever paying it back, they will always help by lending you some more. It might take several months or a few years, but how do you think this will ultimately end?
@Chris Brown, there you’re connecting two issues that really should be looked at separately.
Yes, Greece should never have been admitted to the Eurozone. Whether that was strictly a political decision is debatable; I know the other theories (that the Greek Cheat was known but swept under the carped for political considerations), but I actually think that the admission was based more on the actual criteria, the figures supplied by the Greek, and good will. You know the saying, never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by [in this case:- to being overly trustful]. What rules were broken, bent even, and by whom? And which burning and powerful motivation was it that made bringing little Greece into the Eurozone worthwhile a massive political conspiration?
As for lending money knowing it wouldn’t be paid back, you see, there’s a fine distinction – investors, the people who normally supply the money more successful countries like the US, Germany or the UK accumulate as debt (and there’s plenty of debt in these countries) normally don’t do that. Investors have a very keen sense for potential losses and a good eye for who will actually be able to perform well, pay back, pay their interest – and who won’t. Private investors didn’t want to give Greece more money. They downgraded the country to junk status. Which is why other players had to fill in, but those players didn’t just cast each and every economic concern to the wind, they assessed the Greek situation (as in, the actual ability to carry debt), decided it was doable and gave money, extending the credit terms as far and keeping interests as low as no private investor investor would ever have done – but connected that help to political demands designed to address the root of the problem, which is not the evil investors, not the Euro, not the rich EU bullies, but the Greek economy.
Which brings us back to the original analogy – by all means let’s refine it a bit: me and my pals wind up in that eatery, we’ve just squandered all our money in a stupid carouse and we’re now desperate and hungry. The landlord says: folks, I know you’re able men, you might not have any money now, but I trust you to get your act together. Here’s the deal: if you actually want to stay and eat in here, I’ll provide the meal, but in exchange for that, you’ll rethink your life and get a grip. We all agree cheerfully, because we like that place and don’t want to leave. But after the meal, our motivation wanes a little bit. Now we decide that the landlord’s terms were too harsh and we should to cast that democratic vote rejecting them.
And thanks for the Google hint …
And Greece voted by tow referendums for the European package.
Greece also had two referendums and chose the European package on both occasions.
Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande have launched a desperate plea for European unity ahead of Britain’s once-in-a-generation referendum.
The grovelling heads of state warned EU member-states “not to close in on yourselves” in a thinly-veiled reference to Brexit campaigners. The Europhile German Chancellor and French President said “the forces of division” threatened the future of the Brussels club.
They know only too well that there is great disillusionment in other countries apart from us within the E.U., but are they prepared to reform it? NO!
The Brussels club has signed it’s own death warrant, if we leave, we will be the first of many nails in their coffin.
Sweden, Denmark and Holland will follow and leave EU.
far from it. You have been told that you won’t even be in the Economic Area. type in the google “wolfgang scauble on brexit”
Personally if Scotland want to leave the UK let them… as for being bullied or scared into staying in a broken EU to bail all the leeches out, dream on…
FACTS, WHAT FACTS?
Let’s be honest, there are NO facts of what will happen if we leave the E.U. Neither side have a crystal ball. The same goes for economic forecasts, time after time they have not been worth the paper they’re written on.
The Treasury has admitted it’s forecasts are fixed under political pressure. The last time the Treasury forecast an economic shock was if the U.K. left Exchange Rate Mechanism which were totally wrong. The Treasury failed to predict the last recession. Claims of a run on the pound are nonsense, sterling has maintained its value since the referendum was called. Foreign investors are continuing to invest in the U.K. despite the referendum. Industry experts have made clear that leaving the E.U. is unlikely to affect mortgages or house prices.
So what does this all boil down to? By all means, listen to the arguments from both sides if you want to but, remember peoples opinions are influenced sometimes by their needs not necessarily yours. All too often we see the attitude “Sod you Jack, I’m alright”
The only FACTS, are those that are around you right NOW.
Type in the Google “wolfgang schauble on brexit” These are facts. And the sterling today.
If all is good why have we eight Europe countries wanting to leave had a vote in there own countries in a poll voting over 70 percent to leave Europe and trade with Britain when Britain leaves.also Norway and Iceland will tomtrade right away ,that would be eleven countries trading outside Europe to each other,Germany.spain.portugal would have know one to trade with so they would have to leave Europe as well for survival.jean claud Junkers said on a video on YouTube if all these countries do live europeanunion would be finished,nowcbbc news have reported this ccnc tv beguine also reported. This on tv last Friday,radio 4have also reported this.now our own queen Elizabeth have said if she was to vote it would be leave.as we all want our country back .we are a Christian country being taken over by Muslims and must be stopped they should respect British laws.and respect christain beliefes.every country ineurope now are deporting Muslisms,every country in Europe now and want there country back.must stop this rioting threatening people having no go areas,after this vote I am sure especially after what our queen as said.leave already is ten percent infront of stay,in two more days it will be twenty or more percent in front.and the leave group have got such a following they are now making up new laws when they are out ofveurope for parliament.we only want mps in parliament who beleive in Britain,and want it Great Britain again,fact no debating team yet has told the truth.that there is over ten Europe countries backing Britain,we want tomtrade with them when they leave,if any debating team was to say this the truth there would be no more debating. No one could say Britain have no one to trade with,I have friends in Norway,Belgium France even in Brussels who are amazed that no one inane debating brings this message up,because once we all leave and start trading together outside of Europe,Germany.spain.portugle will have know one tomtrade with and would have to leave as well.do you know the new laws which the leave brigade will bring into parliament first is they do not want any mp who has no faith in Britain all those who vote stay in will not be in parliament.only those who want Britain Great Britain again.a christain country with British laws,no Muslim laws they must abide by british law,or leave.they must respect christain beliefes.this we want this we will have
Analysis of the Agreement Between David Cameron and EU Ministers on 20th February 2016. What it Does Say and What it Most Certainly Does Not Say.
On Saturday morning 20th February 2016 the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon. David Cameron flew back from Brussels, having concluded an agreement on concessions granted to the UK, subject to the proviso that this country obeys the orders handed down to it, and votes to remain in the EU Referendum, on 23rd June 2016.
The Brussels agreement in fact offers us nothing at all but rather a thin gruel of promises that are meaningless.
Here are the true and bitter facts that have been offered to us, by a desperate David Cameron, to try and fool us that he has brought back really big changes from the EU, and we should not vote to Brexit on Referendum Day.
1) Sovereignty . ”No Ever Closer Union” is to be enshrined into EU law. This is just paying lip service to bolster Cameron. In practice ever closer union is being brought forward by directives from Brussels, which overrides existing UK laws, and whose rules are mandatory, and cannot even be debated in our own British Parliament.
2) Legislation from the EU can be blocked if 16 out of 28 national parliaments vote to block it. Please note that it needs 16 parliaments, not prime ministers, who are required to block legislation. The likelihood of this happening to the benefit of the UK, is unlikely in the extreme. The political will to do this does not exist within the EU states.
3) The Euro. It is ”recognised” that the UK will never be part of the Euro. One non Euro country can block Euro legislation if it feels it is endangered. Ministers will then meet to thrash out a compromise. At this stage the UK can be overruled by majority decision, with the smaller countries being brought into line, by the mighty over the weak. There is no declaration that the EU is a multi currency union, nor does the UK have a special exemption. In other words, the ratchet of EU federalism marches on, as Britain can always be overruled at any EU summit.
4) Treaty Changes. All these changes are subject to the approval of the European parliament, which can then overturn them at will. The changes on ”no ever closer union” and those on the Euro will be incorporated by treaty changes, others by the EU Commission in Brussels. These treaty changes can be opposed by other countries at a future summit. In any case the changes will only be enacted when a new EU treaty is required for some other, ”more important” treaty changes in the EU. No time limit is guaranteed, it could be this year, next year, or never. To make it plain, no concessions or changes will be enacted before the Referendum and nothing is guaranteed.
5) It is important to note that nothing has been agreed or granted that establishes once and for all the supremacy of the United Kingdom Parliament over the laws and directives of the EU,. Nor most importantly that the decisions of the European Court of Justice, will only have effect in the UK, when duly passed by our own Parliament. At present, any law or directive passed by the EU Commission, or any decision taken by the European Court, will automatically overrule any existing UK laws, or any British Court ruling, and that situation will never, ever change.
6) Immigration. The absolute right of the 500 million citizens of the European Union to come and live and work in this country has not been altered or reduced in any way. We are absolutely powerless to stop or reduce this flow.
7) It has now been revealed, by the Office of National Statistics, (ONS) that between 2010 and 2015, two point four million immigrants from the EU, mainly from Eastern Europe, came to live and settle in this country. That is roughly the equivalent of six Cities of Liverpool that have been added to the population of our country, the UK.
8) All of these EU immigrants have National Insurance numbers and can claim in full all of the Social Security Benefits to which we UK citizens are entitled to. This payment of benefits to existing EU migrants in the UK will continue unaltered and without interruption. David Cameron in his negotiations has totally failed to secure any concessions on this point. In other words the EU ministers have instructed him that this situation will continue.
9) David Cameron has bought back the concession that the UK’s Social Security benefits for new EU migrants will be graded in over a period of four years. It is a scheme which will last only for seven years and it has been made very clear by the EU Ministers, to the Prime Minister, that it is a once and for all concession to the UK which will never, ever, be repeated. It is important to note that the introduction, timing, and control of all this will be in the hands of the EU Commission, as will be its administration. It is subject to the will of the EU Parliament, and can be thrown out by them, and can also be declared to be unlawful by the European Court of Justice.
10) Child benefits, paid for children living abroad, will be matched to the living standard of their own countries. This restriction is for new migrants only. Existing migrants here in the UK will receive child benefits in full until 2020. Again it must be noted that all this is subject to the same warnings as above and may never be enacted.
11) Each year the United Kingdom contributes a nett £12.6 billion to the budget of the European Union. This is after we have received our annual rebate from the EU, and also any grants or subsides that Brussels may have made, with of course the greatest publicity, to organisations and local councils within the UK. This country is the third largest contributor to the EU budget, after France and Germany. This amounts to a payment of £196 per annum for every man, woman and child within the UK. No concession has been asked for by David Cameron to reduce this contribution and of course none has been given by the EU ministers. This payment of £12.6 billion per year to the EU is roughly the cost of ten new hospitals every year, plus all the doctors and nurses for them.
12) No exemption has been granted to the UK, in respect of our being forced to make contributions to help out Eurozone countries that are in trouble and need bailing out. Greece has been the most recent example and will probably need bailing out again. Italy will almost certainly face a financial crisis and will need bailing out. As will probably Spain and Portugal. All these prospective, but probable bail outs will need vast sums of money, to which the UK will be forced to contribute, even though we are not part of the Eurozone. Did our Prime Minister ask for any change in these rules?. No he did not, so we are shackled to them now for ever.
A question for you, to those who have been so kind as to be still reading this analysis. It asks as to what did our glorious and intrepid Prime Minister actually bring back from Brussels, on that Saturday morning of the 20th February 2016, when he stood so proudly before his podium outside the door of No.10 Downing Street.
The question is this : What is the Square Root of Zero? You do not need to be a mathematician to work out the correct answer. It is exactly equal to what David Cameron, brought back from that summit meeting in Brussels. A great, great, big nothing, with only the very slightest of concessions, and not even those are to be enacted before our Referendum, and without any guarantee that they ever will be so enacted into EU law.
I am sure that you, the electorate of this country, will deliver your own verdict to all this on Referendum Day.
Briefly, I would like to turn to what the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has had to say about what would happen if we voted for Brexit in the referendum. The Old Lady of Threadneedle Street’s message is very clear. That for this country to Brexit, is to risk a downturn in the economy, higher inflation, and a fall in house prices and also a weaker pound. Unfortunately, he pointedly refused to quantify these figures, as to whether they would be small or big, or even if they would just be merely middling. Also most pointedly, he also failed to give any reasons why this may be so, but merely said that the risk was substantive.
We must listen to the Governor of the Bank of England, he is an authority that cannot be ignored. However , we can also take note of what other economists say. As has been pointed out, the freedom won by Brexit, will give the UK, the freedom to seek out new markets, and to be able to exercise our well known abilities to react and adapt quickly to face new opportunities and challenges. That is one of the reasons why Nissan in Sunderland now builds more cars that the whole of Italy, and that the UK has created more jobs here in the last five years, than the whole of the EU put together. We also brought in more Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) into this country, exactly as above. How’s that for a vote of confidence for this, our United Kingdom?
All the great decisions in life carry risks, and the vote that we will be making on the 23rd June will be the most important in our lives. Its outcome will not only effect us, but those of our children, and their children, as well. Boris Johnson has said that we have a chance to choose ”A leap into the sunshine.” How right he is. I think that great leap into freedom is worth the risk, and that we the British people have got the tenacity, strength and the adaptability to meet those risks and challenges, whatever they may be, and prosper by them as well.
The most briefest glance at the proud history of our country, carrying, sometimes all alone, the great Bright Torch of Freedom, down through the centuries, makes that all so very obvious and clear. Long may it be so.
David T Marcus : (Vote Leave – Liverpool) Friday, 13th May 2016.
David Cameron said: “…I will make the arguments about Britain’s future in a reformed European Union….”
And where exactly is this “reformed European Union”?
In some people’s heads, apparently, because it can’t otherwise be pointed to.
Chris, There isn’t a “reformed E.U.” and I there never will be. Cameron’s trying to kid us that his so called “renegotiations” will get passed after the 23rd, Oh yea, pull the other one! He hasn’t got dogs chance.
David Cameron attacked Sadiq Khan in the House of Commons just a few weeks ago, saying Khan’s friends were I S , now he says they are working together…hmm what are we to believe now?
We do not want another country giving us laws.we might give them some laws we want to be proud again we want tone Great Britain again,if any mp does not think Britain is good enough they have no right to be in parliament.and all Muslims must follow British laws.no more no go areas allowed.wehavecenough Europe countries backing us and want the same.even our Queen Elisabeth,wants to leave,and wants to back her Britain,we still have it,thevonlynthingbwhichnhas bennholding uscbackmiscacbad goverment frightend of Muslims.well we can teach them.theynmustnfollow British law,and follow the britsh ways
More threats – will our young people have the guts to stand up against them? They have gone soft – in 1944, 18 year old were storming the beaches of Normandy, now they just want the soft option, cheap phone calls and holidays, without the realisation that if we stay in the EU these will come at a terrible price – our freedom, control of our own affairs and laws! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3600907/Deserters-not-welcomed-open-arms-Brussels-chief-issues-stark-threat-EU-punish-Britain-vote-leave.html
When we leave, the words of this French man will be insignificant. He talks as if trade is only one way. And if the remainers believe that they are idiots. It will be us that controls the board. The French need us to buy their wine cheese champagne and crappie cars. Whose got more to loose. Us or the French? They will be begging us for a trade deal.The EU is not a one way train. They need us more than we need them. (quote from comments) I concur!
Here we go again!
Mr Juncker insisted that he was not making a ‘threat’ when he said
“Britain will be treated like a ‘deserter’ by the EU if it votes to leave”, the president of the European Commission has said.Jean-Claude Juncker warned that “Germany, France and other states would not ‘bend over backwards’ to help if the UK abandoned the union” NOT A THREAT? When you start warning someone in that fashion, if that’s not a threat, then I don’t know what is. You know what you can do with threats and where to stick them. You’re a deserter when you abandon your own people give away their FREEDOM. Don’t bend over backwards for us, bend over forwards if you dare.
This week the “Leave Campaign” turns it focus on the economy.
Really, is this the best that they can do? £60 a year off fuel bills, that’s a saving of £1.15p. a week.
I can see the public swarming right now with their air beds and camping outside the polling stations, waiting for 23rd June.
It would be better concentrate on the cost to the economy of uncontrolled immigration. If immigration adds so much money to the coffers, where’s it all gone? I don’t see hundreds of new factories, new hospitals, new schools, thousands of new homes and jobs. Sorry but the cost of uncontrolled immigration outweighs the return.
There is no reformed Europe that remain speak of. There was concerted effort to get reform but it was not reciprocated on the scale we desire/d. Once we vote to stay this will be a green light for more if the very same. We may even find ourselves on a excellerated schedule to the end game. Greece is effectively being asset stripped by Germany/The EU, what does this tell us about how they feel about the little people. The 1% and big business are the only true winners in the outdated model from the 1950’s. We have no idea what this country will look like in another 40 years due to the mass immigration in the most part. The groundwork has been laid for individual EU Citizen Tax IDs. The EU Army has promo videos available on You Tube it is real and it is dangerous. It opens up too many questions that remain campaign cannot answer. They have no real understanding or plan to give the electorate it is all smoke and mirrors because the EU will be calling the shots and remain aren’t physic.
Up to them. We can’t influence others ‘ final choice. We can just decide to shut the door and lock it once they’re out. Every action causes a reaction.
It’s physics, it’s nature. And it’s fair.
Their government is a bad influence on the EU, influencing policies in their favour or in corporations favour. They certainly don’t want their British overseas territories tax haven network regulated by the EU. However, many UK citizens want and work hard towards a better EU for the people so for that reason I think they should stay in the EU.
If I thought a better EU was a real possibility, I’d be campaigning to remain and fight. But it is going in the wrong direction with the wrong attitude from my perspective, with nothing like enough doubt or self-questioning.
I see considerable risk of economic, social and political train-wrecks, from the EU having tried to do too much too fast and through trying to do this without really considering the actual public of the countries involved: just pushing them, dragging them or ignoring them, as required, towards the (non-democratic) objective set from on high.
.
As soon as one Nations takes back its democracy & leaves the EU the floodgates will open it will collapse.
This is the beginning of the end for the pointless EU.
Sure, in your bubble.
I lived in the UK and I would honestly want them to stay since I love the country and its people. However if the keep being a hurdle to the future further integration of the community, I see no reason for them to remain in.
It is British people right to choose….
Whatever the people want. Vote who wins goes
Leave…
I cannot imagine the EU without the UK. Should they stay or go? They will decide soon.
Why not, Uk is not a founding member. it was not allowed in for 20 years. Big mistake to let them in. They torpedoed the common external borders, common army and so on.
.
The EU is a experiment to solve the problems of the last century, it as failed utterly & as no place in this one.
Vote Leave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN9EC3Gy6Nk
I agree, the EU has a lot more to lose than the UK and is panicking – but I doubt we will escape… David Cameron told a crowd that on the eve of Midsummers Day we will have the results of the referendum.. freudian slip?
Regardless to whatever UK citizens would vote: the eu would soon collapse anyhow, as it’s realisation is fundamentally wrong, no comparison to the sample usa.
Exactly. They should study and debate on what is best of them and decide accordingly. It’s a democracy and people have the right for the best and informed decision according to their likings!
REMAIN ! Leaving the EU is big step back . UK had good time in the EU .
No we had a bad time in the EU we were fleeced – sooner we leave the better and we are not Greece – if we win the Brexit we won’t be back..
It’s got nothing to do with any of you that don’t have a vote to be honest, so all of your comments are irrelevant
but it would seem that some have the vote without UK citizenship … the government claims clerical errors…so are you telling me when someone puts POLISH on their registration – a clerk ACCIDENTALLY changes it to BRITISH? Anyone without English as their first language should take proof of their right to vote to the polling station, a voting card should not be all that’s required.
Leave like every country except Germany for which EU works.
When Union become Empire everyone has right to choose to leave it…
Tell that to the tribes under the Roman Empire, tell it to the Eastern European states under the Soviet Union (Hungary1956, Czechoslovakia1968)
The UK should have been allowed a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, but politicians avoided it. Look for British politicians at the time emphasising how small the changes were, not needing a referendum, while seeing the quotes of their French and German counterparts, celebrating how large were the changes that had been got through.
Now, for slightly convoluted reasons, the UK population has been “allowed” a referendum.
Some of us will be voting “leave” simply because that way future votes in and about the UK parliament will still actually matter!
Your absolutly right Chris, both parties have sold us down the river. In the future we want Governments that put our peple first and not themselves, it seems they always choose the easy option and can’t be bothered to do their job properly, God knows they’re paid well enough.
All the thiefs and liars should be kicked out. Those who forged statistics to take money, those who undermine it from inside, just put your money where your mouth is and GO!!!
Leave.
I wish they stay and help fight these Brussels morons from the inside.
The odds are hopeless. Including a voting loading to smaller countries to help them feel less swamped. When it was ten countries something might have been done, but with 28, and the UK already looking half-hearted for clinging to a variety of opt-outs,, it’s just never going to work. The bus is heading in the wrong direction. Time to get off. Arguing with the driver is not going to work…
I wish they stay and help fight these Brussels morons from the inside.
It should stay..
Stay and struggle…Don’t be cowardly.
Ahmet Azmidolu.
The British people have been known for their courage in the past and will in the future. We are not prepared to give up our freedom without a fight, it’s more cowardly run and hide in a corner just because it’s easier to accept domination from others. Whatever the cost of leaving the E.U. it will be worth it, YOU CAN’T PUT A PRICE ON FREEDOM, at least WE CAN’T.
Cowardly? Those inclined to vote leave have been told that Britain would then face economic disaster, risk of world war three, turning into a state like North Korea, a collapse in the housing market, oh, and holidays in Europe would be dearer.
We are waiting to be told about plague and attack by zombie armies.
The *easy* vote is to leave things alone and pretend that all is (sort of) well.
Only it isn’t well. Not at all.
And trying to change or reform the EU has a very poor record of success.
It doesn’t want to do that. It would appear to prefer to press people into conformity.
(
“Don’t be cowardly” did you miss something? We’re British. no cowards here! It would be cowardly to stay – but we are strong and can stand alone if we have to, (however we have plenty of allies and the commonwealth) strange as it may seem there is life outside the EU and plenty of trading partners too. The EU needs us, we don’t need the EU
stay!!!
RMT Press Office:
TRANSPORT UNION RMT today set out six key reasons why it will be advising members to vote to the leave the EU in the forthcoming referendum:
1. Leave the EU to end attacks on rail workers
New EU rail policies are set to further entrench rail privatisation and fragmentation. That will also mean more attacks or jobs and conditions and EU laws will make it impossible to bring all of rail back into public ownership.
2. Leave the EU to end attacks on seafarers and the offshore workers
The EU has promoted undercutting and social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers. The same is now happening in the offshore sector. EU directives also require the tendering our public ferry services.
3. Leave the EU to end attacks on workers’ rights
It’s a myth that the EU is in favour of workers. In fact the EU is developing a new policy framework to attack trade union rights, collective bargaining, job protections and wages. This is already being enforced in countries which have received EU “bailouts”.
4. Leave the EU to end Austerity
If you join a union you expect members of the union to protect each other in times of trouble. The European Union has done the opposite. It has used the economic crisis to impose austerity and privatization on member states. Instead of protecting jobs and investment EU austerity is driving UK austerity.
5. Leave the EU to stop the attack on our NHS
The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) trade agreement being negotiated between the EU and the United States will promote big business at the expense government protections and organisations including our NHS! Environmental regulations, employment rights, food safety, privacy laws and many other safeguards will also be secondary to the right of corporations to make even bigger profits.
6. Leave the EU to support democracy
The vast majority of the laws that affects our lives are now made in the EU and not the UK. We have no say over those Laws. As the late Tony Benn said in 1991…
“We are discussing whether the British people are to be allowed to elect those who make the laws under which they are governed. The argument is nothing to do with whether we should get more maternity leave from Madame Papandreou [a European Commissioner].”
RMT will be promoting the six key points direct to members across all sectors of the transport industry through the union’s RMT NEWS, through branches and reps and through the union’s social media platforms.
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:
“RMT is proud to stand up for the tradition of progressive and socialist opposition to the European Union, an organisation wedded to privatisation, austerity and attacking democracy.
“It would be frankly ludicrous for a union like ours to support staying in a bosses club that seeks to ban the public ownership of our railways, attacks the shipping and offshore sectors and embraces the privatisation of the NHS and other essential services that our members depend on.
“RMT has set out the six core reasons for our members to vote to leave and we will be campaigning hard on this platform.”
Ends
remain
Why?
If the EU successfully keeps heading the way it wants to, better not to be there.
If the EU falls apart under its own political economic and social stresses, better not to be there.
It’s not Europe I dislike. It’s the EU.
o povo inglês que escolha.
dando pênaltis para Portugal ( e Espanha) foi adiada para depois da votação britânica: Uma UE que parecia poderosa pode ser mais votado contra
The UK will not leave the EU.
Mike, Don’t be too sure that we wont leave, the recent polls suggest that Brexit is catching up but, if we don’t win there is the consolation that by the time the next election comes, you would have had another few years of this fiasco and will be voting for a Government that WILL take us out, providing of course, that the E.U. hasn’t already taken us over completely.
@Bjays if there’s one thing on which I would ever agree with you it’s that a fluke Bremain victory would be a bad thing. Actually, a Bremain victory would be a bad thing altogeher. The UK should simply leave ASAP. June 23rd is going to be it. Make sure you vote.
A feeble remain would extend this miserable status quo charade, and in 5 to 10 years would time trigger a new round of unfair exceptions and special status clauses, ‘rebates’, opt-outs, one-leg-in-but-not-really-affiliated-with-you-lot, and other such extravagances the UK already enjoys – all for a country that is not actually all that different to its peers on any relevant indicator.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/31/tusk-blames-utopian-eu-elites-for-eurosceptic-revolt-and-brexit/
Good article.
Their business. Let them die alone.
There is no other way than thinking progressively rather than backwards. Nationalism is something we should have overcome more than a century ago. In a globalized world there is no space for nationalism neither in the economic nor social area. Joining an association of states like the EU means to remain as a “Union” even in chaotic times like the ones we are in right now. Only united we will be able to manage the current crisis. So lets stay together, think forward and don’t forget about the past and where nationalism has taken thought history.
We are proud to be British, the EU is finished and it’s all go down together or start swimming, I’m for swimming as fast as we can away from the sinking ship!
“Nationalism is something we should have overcome more than a century ago.”
That was, rather, when it was at its height, and the first major attempt to transcend it failed, through a lack of nerve and commitment.
An **artificial** union can be imposed, but it’s unstable.
The classic modern example would be Yugoslavia after the death of Tito, but there are many other instances in history. A good few following the British retreat from empire (which is not to say the empire was a good thing in the first place, however!)
While the leaders of the EU wish to ignore the citizens of the EU whenever conveniently possible, there is only an illusion of unity and union.
(which may pass undetected in good times, but the fractures show up large and deep when stresses come, be they economic, political or social.)
Let countries agree when and where they can truly agree, but not pretend (or dictate) that a level of harmony and agreement exists where it does not.
Castles in the air are notorious for having poor foundations.
Not sure what’s best. In one way it’s seems better so we get rid of the big country that always stop ut moving forward but in an other send seems it better that they stay so not mor countries breaking out of the union
It’s best we leave, the EU has had it’s day.
Remain….europe without the uk is incomplete….and we need your help to make it better, because now, the e.u. is not what we all dreamt of ,with those at its head now. A much better e.u. is what europeans want,less bureaucratic, less dogmatic, more democratic,more human……and the u.k. is the leader in that fight.
Fight your own battles, not one country has agreed to stand side by side with the UK to get reform, it is impossible to reform from within, we are being harangued and bullied but we will never surrender! If other Europeans want change they need to stand up and be counted, but from where I sit, we have to get out NOW.
Europe will still have the UK. It’s only the EU that won’t. They are not the same thing.
” now, the e.u. is not what we all dreamt of “. Agreed. And that is putting it mildly.
What basis is there for hope of fundamental reform? Too little, if any, as far as I can see.
Where do you think the EU is currently heading? What is the ideal “final state” that is being aimed at? As far as I can tell from the sayings of previous and current leaders (not all of the admitted at the relevant time) its something many European citizens would be comfortable with.
Yes, let’s build a less bureaucratic, less dogmatic,more democratic, more human Europe. But if we’re to do that, I don’t think we should start from the EU. That’s gone too far, too fast and too hard in some wrong directions.
Yes Jude that seems a positive approach
Leave.
Remain member of the European Union
With such strong economy has nothing to lose . Yes
We have everything to gain by LEAVING the EU :)
This is hard to answer. Brexiteers complain about lack of transparency in Brussels. So tell me is Westminster transparent? Not at all.
It’s not bad, actually. With the Freedom of Information act at the very least one can find out where something is being hidden.
My UK member of parliament is at the level of making law.
My European member of parliament is not.
Would the prime minister join a company that has not had their accounts signed off for nineteen years
Is there anybody out there wanting to reply to my question I am undecided in or out
Apparently yes, according to his performance on Sky last night.
Trouble is, he has said very different things in the not-too-distant past.
He was prepared to lead a campaign to leave the EU is his attempts to obtain “reform” (actually far more just further special treatment for Britain) were not successful. He certainly didn’t get reform, and he barely got any concessions
(none yet ratified, none I think permanent)
He has spoken of the UK being capable of being successful outside the EU, and of the leaving the EU being an economic disaster for the UK.
I’m voting leave, in the end for three factors.
We do need some degree of better control to migration, and while that won’t be an instant fix on leaving, there’s little to no chance of solving the issue at all while within the EU.
Law-making: I want a lot more of that back at Westminster, not because they are vastly better at it than EU commissioners, but because at least then I have a chance to vote out those who, in my opinion (with that of others) are getting things wrong.
And, thirdly, the shape of the future EU: the core leadership still has an agenda of a larger EU and a more tightly-knit EU, even though that is not what a large proportion of EU citizens want. Recent quotations from Juncker and others show how little regard they have for democracy in this respect, when it gets in their way.
Interestingly former Polish PM Dnald Tusk has recently broken ranks, accusing his EU colleagues of wrongly pursuing a utopian vision at the cost of ignoring reality. https://euobserver.com/political/133613
This, I think, is the most important idea. Its leaders are taking the EU in the wrong direction and are disinclined to listen to those (especially just “voters”) who try to tell them to change their minds. Reform does not seem a real prospect.
The bus is going in the wrong direction so I and the UK need to get off.
Even wanting “In” Cameron exults in getting a “special status” for the UK which just marks out the poor fit between us and the EU, and fosters resentment from other EU countries for the way we are not “fully European”. We won’t be massively popular if we stay. A backlash for giving trouble and for wanting special favours is far more likely than a welcome with open arms. I suspect that when locked into that “remain” position pressure to conform will be considerable.
Chris
British people will decide.
We d like them to stay. They’re one of the greatest. And they’re Europe.
A nice comment :)
Eugenia,
EU is collapsing. Greece is hopeless case. Even Vietnam economy is doing better than Greece
Next is Portugal and then Italy. If you house is craving in yiu grab your kids and run
The CAP introduced by French to protect the farmers is killing EU slowly.
so UK must leave and start EU2 with Denmark, Sweden and Norway. LEAVE the German and French to EU1. The German has a time bomb themselves, with 2 million Arab!
Turkey is waiting at her doorstep
Forget the personalities, current economic woes and immigration. Consider this future scenario: June 2030, 3 weeks after the UK General Election has resulted in a landslide victory for the newly formed Fair Tax Party, formed after massive increases in energy prices resulted in extensive fuel poverty. A central plank of their manifesto is to help the poor by removing VAT from domestic fuel bills immediately after the election. However, EU declares this policy illegal and threatens court action, overruling the elected UK government and the will of the British people. What happens next…?
They were not in the EU from start, so probably won’t be much of a problem with them out.
Corbyn says the EU protects workers rights what are the unions of Great Britain doing are they not elected to look after their members
Yes leave Europe uk good luck to greece
Should not have forged statistics and take money with lies. Yes we have to clean the rubbish from the EU because it hinders and undermines us.
70% of world population live in Asia, only 8 % in Europe. Leave EU and trade with Asia.
When your home is collapsing you grab your kids and run. EU will collaose soon, so leave now. GREECE is just like a leech sticking to Germany legs, but for how long.
The CAP had deprived us of cheap butter lamb and beef from Zealand and Australia
UK should concentrate on the Commonwealth, which 52 members.
Russia already proved SOVIET Union did not work
In USA Texas, California and Alaska are trying to get out of the union
The relentless call for facts and figures suggests none of us really know, do we? Perhaps we are paying now for years of indifference to the EU and our place in it?
I confess to having no idea who my MEP is. For all I know he or she could be a highly professional, experienced politician always fighting in my corner, or just a lazy, useless waste of space enjoying a cushy life at my expense.
The “Campaingners” are exploiting our ignorance but it won’t work because they forget we are intelligent.
I agree with Teresa May and Lord Blunkett, there is a lot wrong with the EU and they need us to take full advantage of them. Immigration has always been a challenge and we are not going to make the difference by quitting.
By far and away, our safer option, the better of two evils, is to stay in. Not an easy choice but only an idiot would jump out of the office window without knowing how far it is off the ground.
Andrew, you say ” only an idiot would jump out of the office window without knowing how far it is off the ground.”
Well that would depend on how convinced a person was that the office was on fire… (and yes, considering “reform”, whether or not there was a chance of putting the fire out, rather than jumping.)
“I agree with Teresa May and Lord Blunkett, there is a lot wrong with the EU ”
And a lot of others, including many of the EU’s “friends”. I think they are either overoptimistic on the chances for reform, or too fearful of risking the relatively unknown.
The EU still wants to expand and to produce an “ever-closer union”.
I see this as it having seriously wrong objectives when economic, political and social difficulties are already sufficient to make a involuntary fracturing of the EU a very distinct possibility.
I disagree with you on immigration: leaving would not create an easy or complete fix, but it offers more chance of control than any other option I have seen suggested.
Chris. (already voted “Leave”: disabled, I’ve used my postal vote)
Chris, If the office was on fire us stay in Brits would stay and put it out. If the Exit lot jump out the window its “over and out” (or “out” and “over”?)
Andrew …”Chris, If the office was on fire us stay in Brits would stay and put it out.”
If I thought there was a real chance of reform, yes indeed “putting out the fire” dealing with what was wrong with the EU would be the right move.
I’ve looked and I don’t think that can be done.The EU structure and leadership isn’t open to it.
The way to show fight and leadership is to positively leave.
As a exemplary comment-in-action on the EU, and an example of “it can be done” to other countries with very significant proportions of the population (especially Italy and France) wanting to vote to leave the EU….If they are ever given a chance. Ducking referendums was a feature of the arranging the European Constitution, and running them till the “right” vote appeared a feature of the Lisbon treaty,
I’d prefer to live under a better quality of democracy than the EU is inclined to, by comment and by record.
Yes, even if that means economic uncertainty.
Ahmet,
EU is collapsing and incompetent.
Greece is no hope case. Even Vietnam is doing better than Greece. You have mobile phone coming out from Vietnam.
Greece is only olive oil.
Sweden and Denmark will leave too after uk
Germany will blow up with immigration problem.
Turkey is on her doorstep
Well said and well done Chris :)
Only reason anyone would vote to stay in because they are feathering there own nest actors and certain government MPs are only looking after themselves don’t give a sh.t about the people actors pop stars and fat walleted overpaid footballers could wipe out world poverty tomorrow by giving one million each but will not sooner ask us to donate while they swan round the world telling us what WE SHOULD DO
Don’t forget the big car makers who spend millions lobbying the EU on emissions limits then when they struggle to meet them what do they do? CHEAT! So apart from keeping all the fat cats well fed, what exactly is the point?
Dear Chris can’t agree with you more for it was only this morning that my partner pointed out that David Beckham is for the stay campaign of course he doesn’t have to worry about medical bills school fees and the list goes on does he even still live in England?
It’s absurd and pretty DUMB to vote leave in the midsts of gobalization. We don’t need any more states, we don’t need any more divisions. Tightening border control and security are completely attainable tasks if we remain WITHIN the EU not out.
Oh really? Can you explain your theory? not sure what gobalisation is.. but if you mean globalisation can you explain how you think we are in the middle of it?
Can you please explain precisely HOW the UK government can tighten border controls whilst remaining in the EU? Cameron made a similar statement on Thursday, and it would be most helpful if at least one of you could explain how, exactly.
“Can you please explain precisely HOW the UK government can tighten border controls whilst remaining in the EU?”
The UK can “tighten border controls” as much as it wants, EU member or not. Nothing at all is preventing the UK from giving literally everyone an hour-long shakedown and security screening upon entry.
What you really mean by “tighten border controls” though is that you want no more EU (EEA, really) foreigners to be allowed to come in to live and work in the UK. This doesn’t really come under “border controls”, this is part and parcel of the single market. So in order to “tighten border controls” in your sense, the UK would have to leave the single market. Which is automatically accomplished by leaving the EU, sure enough. You may be certain, though, that the UK will eagerly look for ways to get back into the EEA and thus into the single market from June 24th on. And since that would add absolutely no value at all, other than making everything more complicated for the sake of some poor sods who can now pretend to have “taken their country back”, I doubt that outside the UK there will be much enthusiasm to rapidly reach any agreements.
Let the British decide, right?? Big corporations and the British Government would certainly lose out some things in the event of a Brexit, they would be worse off for a while, it would be almost inevitable I think… In the event of a Brexit, some brokers and/or “binary options” traders might have a few good days, in terms of betting activity… but when all the dust settles down, a Brexit could MAYBE… eventually… MAYBE… could benefit the British people in general, only in the long-term, and after paying an immediate “short-to-medium-term” economic price on several levels… all they have to do is a choice: to decide if that price is worth paying to get rid of the EU, with all its good things and bad things… It is a very difficult choice to make, very tough indeed :-P
Radio 4 Today programme reporter this morning stated the UK pays twice as much into the CAP as British farmers receive in subsidies. The benefits to the EU are obvious, but can anyone explain what exactly the taxpayers of Britain gain from this arrangement?
EU is dying and collapsing. Sweden and Denmark are just waiting to see and leave too. If Russia failed in Soviet Union, do you think Germany and French will make it? Both have no natural resources. Not a chance. The CAP is killing food prices and the French declared it is untouchable when others want to reform it. The CAP is now running at 60 billion euro a year and rising.
“If Russia failed in Soviet Union, do you think Germany and French will make it?”
Yeah, the EU is just a sneaky scheme devised by France and Germany, in an attempt to revise history via the back door; main objectives: screw Europe left, center and right, and, in particular: finally get one over the UK.
I’m not addressing the OP in particular, he’s nothing but a trolling clown, but now and then it’s helpful to point to the origins of “Euro-Scepticism”, in the UK specifically.
On 23rd June, I shall vote to leave the EU, but my reasons for doing so are very different from those of others voting for exit. I am a great enthusiast for both Europe and the EU (for all its faults). I should like to see, and be a part of, a Europe that is highly integrated not only economically but also politically, militarily, judicially, etc . – a federation of states with the potential to become greater than any other nation or federation in the world (I should be the first to admit that this seems highly unlikely at present, but I am an optimist and do not believe in giving up when things get difficult). However, even most of those who wish to remain in the EU simply want a beneficial trade agreement with Europe: they, along with the anti-Europeans, do not want to be in the Euro currency system or the Schengen zone, do not want closer political union, a European defence force, or a European anything else. In fact, supporters of ‘Remain’ are usually very quick to assert that if Britain does remain in the EU we shall opt out of pretty well everything and do our very best to oppose any moves towards closer union. I consider us to be, for the most part, bad Europeans: parochially-minded people who just want the economic benefits , seem to have forgotten the horrors of the two World Wars resulting from a divided Europe, and have no vision for the future, merely a fantasy about ‘sovereignty’ and the long gone days of Empire. I believe that leaving the EU would probably be bad for Britain but, by removing one negative and obstructive influence, would give Europe the best hope, however remote, of realising its full potential.
Please don’t forget UK has oil and gas reserve. Brussel wants to control it. There are 50 billion barrels of oil near Gatwick Airport
That would draw in £15B for the Treasury yearly. Huge gas reserve in Midland. David Cameron never mentioned this in his campaign.
Leave EU to control your own resources.
Germany is at mercy of Russia for the gas
Scotland will go, you know that, right?
Singapore has the highest per capital incomr of $56000, higher than USA and UK. She runs on meritocracy not cronyism like uk doing. Less regulations and bureaucracy is the way forward. Unlease from EU free yourself
The best person for the job and not on EU passport.
Let’s have chaos and uncertainty. Hedge fonds will love it and earn billions…
After UK exit, Germany may follow. With hugh immigration from middle east Germany will have to close her border soon.
The spiritual leader Dalai Lama said on TV.
“Germany is Germany. Germany is not an Arab country”
You’d all wish in your bubble. the Eu will be cleaner and stronger without you. GO!!!
A Thought. If we vote to remain and then subsequently the rest of the EU crumbles into non-existence, as the Quitters are implying it might, how would that affect us?
Before giving the obvious answer, there is a difference between not being a member of a thriving EU community and being a member of an EU community that no longer exists?
Well UK will just lose all the £18B contributed. No refund and bye bye.
The £1 = 10 euro and you can walk into Spain and buy hotels (not house)
This happened when Soviet union collapsed the rouble dropped drastically
The Germany will pull down EU eventually. The German banks hold $57 trillion derivatives on their books. No one can survive that. So Germany needs to bail them out and to do so must leave EU to do it as EU rules do not allow that
Germany has two time “bombs”
a) massive immigrant from Arab countries
b) Banks failure
Check the pound today ;)
If you take the trouble to look back over the last decade or so, are we better off now than we were? Now, I’m not referring to the fat cats, I’m talking about the average Joe with a family, our standard of living should have improved but, it hasn’t, it’s worse and will continue to do so while we remain in the E.U. The truth is the E.U. dream has turned into a nightmare, and it’s time for Britain to wake up. What’s the chances of our youngsters getting decent jobs, let alone buying a home of their own in the future. They say that leaving the E.U. is a “jump in dark” I say “ better a jump in the dark, than remaining and sinking in a swirling pit of disaster, that’s right before our eyes”
Still not sure which way to vote? O.K. forget all the arguments, vote on the facts that are all around you right now, it all boils down to this:- Are you truly happy with what’s going on in our country? This is our only chance to change it.
WAKE UP BRITAIN, VOTE LEAVE!
Why oh why can no one mention the most important point of DEMORACY. The E.U. Is not democratic. None of the so called ‘Presidents’, Commisioners etc.. Have been elected by us. None can be removed by us. Yet they are making decisions which effect every accept of our lives. Very undemocratic.
If the mistake is made, being frightened in to voting to remain. Then why do we have/retain a House of Parliament, unelected House of Lords. A ineffectual Supreme Court. All having decisions of our lives. Is so many levels of bureaucracy really needed. We only need one or the other. Either get rid of the British Parliaments and live under the E.U. Or free ourselves of the bureaucracies of the E.U. And retain our sovereignty. I know which I choose.
Time to leave the E.U. My friends!
Totally agree Dingo!
Who elected the hundreds of high level officials of the Uk government?
And so the debate goes on, but who’s telling us the truth?
There is no truth in opinions, suppositions or forecasts. These are not facts, how many times in the past have economic forecast have been proved wrong? The same applies to opinions, these are formed by all of us according to our lifestyle, and I’m sorry to say, “in our own interest”
There comes a time when we must look at the broader picture, it seems that the majority of those urging us to stay in the E.U. are the wealthy and the well to do, you could be forgiven for thinking they have a vested interest. Only when Cameron got wind of a possible vote of “no confidence” after all his scaremongering, was he forced to admit the TRUTH that the “U.K.s brilliant economy was strong enough to survive whatever the result of the E.U. referendum”, (his words, not mine) So what does this tell you? Draw your own conclusions.
Apparently 164 Conservative MPs are for staying in the E.U. and 131 Conservative MPs are for leaving. Could it be the 164 don’t want the work involved in sorting it all out if we leave, if that’s the case who are they working for? we don’t pay them for just sitting on their backsides. Have some of these also been influenced by scaremongering or is it simply they’re looking after their political careers? Now we have to consider the 131 MPs that are for leaving, these have gone against their leader and no doubt have possibly put their political future at risk, for the life of me, I can’t think of anything they have to gain by doing this, I’m sure they know more of what’s going on than I do, yet it would appear they have the courage and honesty to put the welfare of the British people first. We’re all sick and tired of politicians lying tactics and false promises, it has come to the point where the only way to come any decision from what they say, is to use common sense and analyse their recommendations for vested interest first and foremost. And for these reasons, my money is on the 131 Conservative MPs that are for leaving the E.U.
VOTE LEAVE!
Once again the “Stay In Campaign” have scored an own goal for “Brexit” with Tony Blair and John Major joining forces to spread more of the same old scaremongering. Is this the Tony Blair that took us into the war with Iraq by mistake? Our memories aren’t that short, why on earth would anybody want to listen to him. As for John Major, I seem to recall “the summer of discontent” when he was Prime Minister.
Thank you both for helping the “Brexit Campaign” by your intervention, “good on you, keep it up” at this rate we could all go home and just wait for the 23rd June to win our freedom but, be assured we won’t.
remain, as the saying goes, it is better the devil than the devil you do not know. The remain group says many things but dont have a plan to solve unemployment, services that would de lost, no backup plan to solve terrorism etc etc. just interested in their own personal political ambitions, no support from institutions, etc etc.It is better to be great Britain than little England… control there is and always has been. what the leave wants is for them to take control for their benefits and what ever happens after to thepeople is to suffer the effect..
The argument that we will isolate ourselves by leaving the EU is absurd, it’s quite the opposite as we can function freely without the bonds applied by 27 other countries looking after their own self-interests. I used to purchase commercial goods from countries outside the EU and there are little or no barriers to trade other than those imposed on us by the EU. Trade agreements can make things simpler and reduce tariffs but generally if someone in China, Turkey, America etc. is selling the right product at the right price you can buy it. Remember, its business that creates jobs and wealth not politicians, we don’t need another set of politicians in Brussels stifling the UK’s entrepreneurial creativity. The EU will not reform itself if we stay as we are giving them Carte Blanche over our future, this is our one chance to escape, VOTE LEAVE.
If all is good why have we eight Europe countries wanting to leave had a vote in there own countries in a poll voting over 70 percent to leave Europe and trade with Britain when Britain leaves.also Norway and Iceland will tomtrade right away ,that would be eleven countries trading outside Europe to each other,Germany.spain.portugal would have know one to trade with so they would have to leave Europe as well for survival.jean claud Junkers said on a video on YouTube if all these countries do live europeanunion would be finished,nowcbbc news have reported this ccnc tv beguine also reported. This on tv last Friday,radio 4have also reported this.now our own queen Elizabeth have said if she was to vote it would be leave.as we all want our country back .we are a Christian country being taken over by Muslims and must be stopped they should respect British laws.and respect christain beliefes.every country ineurope now are deporting Muslisms,every country in Europe now and want there country back.must stop this rioting threatening people having no go areas,after this vote I am sure especially after what our queen as said.leave already is ten percent infront of stay,in two more days it will be twenty or more percent in front.and the leave group have got such a following they are now making up new laws when they are out ofveurope for parliament.we only want mps in parliament who beleive in Britain,and want it Great Britain again,
Holland to follow Brexit with Nexit.
A whopping 88 per cent of people polled by Dutch newspaper said they would be in favour of an in/out vote along British lines.
They have been inspired by the possibility of Britain leaving and hope Nexit will follow Brexit.
The survey, carried out by De Telegraaf, will spark fears among Brussels chiefs that the bloc is on verge of falling apart.
Now Labour are calling on their supporters to vote on the 23rd thinking that they will swing the vote to stay in the E.U. I take this as an insult, do they really think that past Labour supporters are too stupid to make their own minds up and just automatically follow Labour’s lead, NO! Neither Labour or Conservative have our trust anymore, this time WE will decide our future, NOT YOU!
You’d wish.
Vote Leave now.
UK is the only country driving on the left side of the road. The other 25 members drive on the right side of the road.
Eventually EU will make UK drive on the right side and 30 millions cars have to be changed. This is £450 billions costs to the UK citizens to change cars with left hand drive. Bus drivers will have to be retrained. And road signs change.
Please ask David Cameron how will he handle this.
You know the joke: everybody is coming the wrong way today… Don’t you see yourself? The only country on Earth that does this…
Sarah Woolaston M.P. has withdrawn her support for the “Vote Leave” campaign because of claims that leaving the E.U. would hand the N.H.S. an extra £350 million a week was untrue, she added “she was changing sides because she was not “comfortable” being part of a movement that used the wrong figures on it’s battle bus, she will now vote to remain. Oh! Sarah you’re such a paragon virtue, one lie has not only caused you to withdraw your support but, completely change your mind and vote for a campaign that has done nothing but lied and used the fear factor from the very start. Conscience is funny thing, isn’t it?
The E.U. policy is “ If you want to boil a frog, do it slowly so they don’t notice they are being cooked”
Absolutely!
Then just go. please, what is this drama?! GO!!!
I have voted Leave by postal vote
good luck and best wishes to UK
Nationalist ideologists on the run. Even hijacking some naive grass-roots democrats. Unbelievable. What happened to British bulldog spirit? Following rabble-rousers today? Anyway, glad not to be British at the moment. Goodbye.
From the latest polls, it would seem that Brexit has well and truly taken the lead. Now watch out for some foul play from Cameron. Already Cameron’s team has adopted a “take out Boris strategy” by allowing Tory Cabinet ministers to claim he only backed Brexit in order to further his ambition to be Prime Minister and associating him with Nigel Farage. This just shows what a despicable shower they really are, they will stop at nothing, short of having him shot. It amazes me that Cameron and all his cronies think we’re oblivious to their rotten tactics, they obviously think we’re just a load nitwits and don’t know what day it is. They’ve tried the fear factor and everything else, and that hasn’t worked, so now they start mud slinging. The Conservatives must be kicking themselves for choosing Cameron as their leader, what a mistake that was, but he’s said he won’t be in for third term, NO! YOU CAN BET YOUR LIFE YOU WON’T, LEAVE THE KEY UNDER THE
MAT.
Lies!
The leave is 4% behind.
Don’t be fooled.. it’s still neck and neck, the government want us to be complacent, Cameron’s dirty work now being enhanced by Brown, Blair and Major. Latest attack is on pensions, but I sincerely believe that pensioners will give him a Churchillian salute!
LEAVE EU NOW
You already cannot buy a pint but only in litre in pubs, you cannot buy eggs in dozen but only 10.
you cannot dredge the rivers, allow them to flood and kill innocent people.
soon you will drive on the right side ofvthe roads snd thousands will killed in road accidents
Get out now!
The Polls mean nothing, all manipulated one way or another, 10 days from now we have a chance to vote, don’t be misled into thinking it’s a done deal for either side – get yourself to the Polling station and VOTE – personally I’ms VOTING LEAVE
The Polls mean nothing, all manipulated one way or another, 10 days from now we have a chance to vote, don’t be misled into thinking it’s a done deal for either side – get yourself to the Polling station and VOTE – personally I’m VOTING LEAVE
Reported in the press to day.
Gordon Brown will spearhead a 10 day Labour media blitz to rescue the Remain campaign after Leave surged ahead in the polls.
Within the Labour party, the mood is bleak. One senior source lamented “We are sleepwalking to losing the damn thing”
One frontbencher returned from canvassing and announced to his office “It’s just like the general election, the polls say it’ll be fine but at every doorstep someone tells you to “f *** off.
I’m waiting at the door.
Roll on the next ten days and let’s get our freedom back.
Earl – we will be poorer. I understand the frustrations, but leaving won’t make things better.
Sheffield.
Can’t you see, we’re getting poorer year by year because uncontrolled immigration. I’m not against controlled immigration, yes we need some people to fill vacancies that we have but we don’t have 330 thousand vacancies per year. For example let’s take a Doctor with a wife and two children that come into the U.K., the Doctor will pay taxes but the family will need a home and the children will need school places and all the other parts of the infrastructure that we all use, so how long will it take for the Doctors taxes to cover their cost to the U.K. O.K. having the Doctor benefits us in other ways, and I accept that. However, the benefits of uncontrolled unskilled immigration is by far out weighed by the cost to the U.K. Where is all the money coming from to build thousands of homes, more schools etc? where else, out of our pockets.
Now they’re saying “Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t”
Well, the devil I know was the one we had before we joined the E.U. where we elected Governments to run our country and make the rules, knowing full well that if they made a hash of it (which they invariably did) at least they were accountable and we could chuck them out. Our taxes were used for the benefit of the people in the U.K. and we decided where it went. Businesses could run without outside interference. We weren’t threatened by terrorist attacks. Trade Unions fought for workers rights. Our cities and towns weren’t bulging at their seams. The disabled weren’t threatened with benefit cuts. Council tenants didn’t have to pay bedroom tax. Young couples with children had a chance of a council house if they couldn’t afford buy one, some could afford to buy them. We weren’t threatened buy foreign unelected bureaucrats for decisions that we might make. The country wasn’t up to it’s neck in debt. And most importantly we were a democracy and in charge of our own destiny.
what common sense you write its a pity CAMERON OSBOURNE ET AL don’t follow suit their constant belittling of of Country is lamenable
STOP MUDDYING THE WATERS, JUST VOTE LEAVE
The EU would be much better off without Britain. We would have long ago created an EU army , an EU border authority and border without British “concerns” (=how to outright undermine us) and as a result would have also had our financial centers for the transactions that concern us. We must realise if you know well the Brits, that they view everything European as a threat and there’s a massive xenophobic anti-European bias in everything they think about us. Heck, they “think” the behavior of their hooligans is our fault… No comment. It’s an illusion to have them in. In the UK it’s political correctness to hate and deride Europe.
The EU would be much better off without Britain. We would have long ago created an EU army , an EU border authority and border without British “concerns” (=how to outright undermine us) and as a result would have also had our financial centers for the transactions that concern us. We must realise if you know well the Brits, that they view everything European as a threat
It’s an illusion to have them in. In the UK it’s political correctness to hate and deride Europe.
We would have long ago had a unified energy strategy, with renewable energy etc.
All your rants attack the British, we get you, you are a xenophobic racist EU supporter, you have convinced more people of our need to leave the EU than anyone else in this debate.. have a good day!
Hear! Hear! Lisa.
You are to used to talk only in your own nationalistic bubble. Let me tell you there will be people on the other side who can talk and think about the same way as you do about them
Bye-Bye!
“You are to used to talk only in your own nationalistic bubble.” I do love these self-proclaimed psychics who claim to be able to know my mind better than I do, and then offer evidence that they can do nothing of the kind.
“nationalistic bubble”? I would lay significant odds that I know international history and politics better than you do.
Demonising or belittling the “other side” is an ancient meme.
It can be effective, in poisoning the mind of one’s own people (while uniting them against this external “threat”) but it’s also dangerous if it actually comes to be believed by those propagating it. They then start to live in an imaginary world of their own making. Not a good move.
Hi. A problem occurs when one says “I am into this or that idea” then as an automatic consequence is named “anti-…” something else. This equation does not necessarily apply in every instance…
Do I think we should leave the EU?: no. Am I anti-British?: no.
I am from the British Isles.
Are there things to feel hopeful about in regards to the EU?: yes. Do I think they are without their share of contradictons?: no way.
Do I think that being British sums up my identity?: no way. Do I think that reserving knowledge of one’s history can be retained even as part of the EU?: yes.
British history has its good moments and its worse moments and those good moments are not frequent enough, or late on in history enough, for me to want to move away from the EU. Similarly, many of the so-called great traits of the British, sway superficially between pride and stupidity, snobbery and elitism. Brits often pride ourselves on traits that leave much to be desired. And the history that Brits are taught is often skewered by militantly secular-minded historians. Most of the population prides itself on money and position and property ownership so what is there to hold onto of more substance?! Most Brits don’t recognise the real history of their own country, by that I mean their original Catholic roots and what people went through to bring about the opportunities they all have today, so if this country meant anything at all it was sold down the drain a time and a half ago.
If the EU is going to keep voters in the U.K from going backwards then they need to stop being contradictory in their rule-making. They need to make sure that individual voters, from individual member ‘states’, do not feel as if they are being ignored by power-hungry bureaucrats behind a big wall in Brussels. The lines of communication need to be open. And also certain preservation-of-life issues need to be addressed and written in stone.
Britain is too much of a feel-good whimsical country now and could benefit greatly from being humbled as part of an EU that consists of other countries such as Poland that are made of more solid stuff. We can all learn from one another. The French are a bit decadent and could do with learning from more enriching countries. Belgium is on another planet and a downward spiral. Germany is trying to improve. Scandinavian countries leave something to be desired. But we can all learn together. And power will be balanced this way too. The U.S has too much influence and so does Russia.
The U.K is infected by marketing companies, civil servants and politically correct terms of little meaning. It has swallowed itself like a big ol’ whale.
The EU still has potential. I could see myself retaining or at least being more aware of my own Englishness by being in the EU than I could being a UK ‘nationalist’ – a term that makes me deeply uncomfortable for so many reasons. The world now is our neighbour, consisting of our brothers and our sisters, and this extended family reaches way beyond the confines of a border to a country that prides itself on celebrity-ism, and silly jargon and insincere small talk. The world is now both smaller thanks to the media and so bigger in reach as a result. Remaining in the U.K takes narrow-mindedness. To remain in the EU takes vision.
Thanks.
Hi. Not sure why my messages keep disappearing…(sigh…again) –
In short:
– The borders between neighbour countries now extend across the world. Thanks to communcation and travel the world is smaller and as a result the reach is bigger and our neighbours closer. One big and hopefully happier family.
– The U.K does not stand for anything much as it doesn’t teach history properly – its true Catholic roots – and prides itself instead in Anglofied less-than-meaningful traits: elitism; celebrityism; small talk; and ownership/money. The only thing it really has of value is past-achievements by industry pioneers.
– The U.K has drowned itself in civil servants, marketing companies and politically correct terms of no meaning.
– The U.K will be going backwards if it becomes ‘nationalist’ – a term that ought to make people think twice. In our government at present we house a far-right nationalist, an ex-IRA leader and a communist…hmm.
The option is the EU. I’d feel more English being part of the EU because I could pick and choose the English traits that belong to my identity rather than being lumped together with a set-value of so-called ‘Britishness’ that does not define me.
The only way for the EU to succeed is to keep lines of communication with individuals in the different member countries open so that the EU does not become, or seem to become, a faceless totalitariat dictatorship ruling behind an iron wall in Brussels. The EU needs to promote and endorse each country’s individual strengths and (real) history and this way we will not become saturated into blandness.
My identity is not English, although I am English, and this fact does not make me anti-british, it just makes me broader-minded.
Thanks.
…not that I’m judging the souls of the self-proclaimed Communist, the far-right Nationalist and the IRA representative, because no one has that right, but I can judge what those people represent as being either good or bad, and until they disattach themselves from those things, and insofar that I am capable of judging between what is a good thing and what is not, I contend that U.K politics is but a parody of true government.
There are very few facts in this debate, with both sides claiming we will be better off if we stay or go. It then just comes down to your own personal opinion on whose argument is the most credible.
I think Lord Howard summed it up quite clearly this morning when he said there are only 3 hard facts.
1. If we leave we won’t give Billions away to the EU each year.
2. We will be in control of our borders.
3. Our government will not be subordinate to Brussels.
Everything else is speculation on both sides.
Neil, your absolutly RIGHT, they are the only FACTS.
Just type in the Google “Wolfgang schauble on brexit” and read the article. This is what the other side thinks. You WANT to live in a nationalistic bubble because this is being ignored in the leavers media.
It is also a low brow lie that Brussels is a dictatorship, everybody there is either elected or appointed by elected persons much like all British civil servants. Repeating demeaningly “dictatorship” is a choice of wanting to live in a nationalistic bubble.
If ever there was a “bubble” it is the EU with its inward looking protectionism…. the UK wants to live (i.e. trade) outside this with the rest of the world
1) Just type in the google “the head of WTO on post brexit”
2)Just google it up what China thinks about the UK on its own.
Ignore them knowingly and keep repeating your “…with the world…”
Has anyone given a thought to the probability that eventually, we, the ENGLISH
residents of the U K. become the minority group,? Will we still be entitled to what is ours by birth, ?? Remaining in the Common Market will destroy us, as an independent country,
and YES we are capable of standing on our “own two feet ” but,how can can we progress when the country is full of immigrants who cannot speak or understand English.
but they DO know where the benefits offices are ,
Another low brow lie. By far native Brits are applying for more benefits, than the hard working Europeans.
There are three choices in this week’s EU referendum – not two, as the question framers would have us believe – and the third way, that dare not speak its name, is beyond binary.
Campaigners are desperate to keep the third choice tucked firmly away and pretend that we are all bound for one of the polar options trumpeted by the ‘Brexiteers’, whose label suggests a dash of the ‘musketeers’ – even though they struggle to match the all-style-and-no-script BBC television series of that name – and the stick-in-the-mud gang, wallowing in their squat slogan of ‘Remain’ and confirming Dryden’s midwife’s blessing, ‘Be thou dull’.
Yet there are also the dissenters, uncomfortable with being asked to answer an uncalled for question, who are shunned: scorn awaits them if they dare to invite attention by plumping for the way that has not been signposted.
Ignominy is their deserved lot, as one side suggests that by inaction they are helping to bring about economic collapse and warfare in Europe, while the opposition claims that they may be inadvertently elevating kowtowing to Brussels above the grand walk alone.
The whole thing may be nothing more than an intestine blue on blue brawl that has spilled into the streets, but the citizens must swallow one or other line, simulating fascination and poring over the yawning rhetoric and pouting spats.
Much is made of what ‘the British people’ really want – as if that is the reason that the elaborate show is being staged, but the referendum is being imposed by a party that won with a mandate of just a quarter of registered voters.
On that basis the Conservatives, only a slice of whom wanted the referendum, together with the rest of the electorate, are being cajoled into voting to avoid Armageddon – and heavyweights from across the globe are queueing up (or should that be lining up?) to intimidate the voting fodder into toeing the official line (all quite independently).
However, the bullies, despite being able to flaunt an A-list of heavyweight supporters, are terrified that their victims will stay at home and settle for option three – as they have increasingly been doing in general elections for the last 60 years – so that the voice of reason, the ‘correct’ reason, does not prevail.
Choosing to stay away from the polling booths may, indeed, be the most powerful way that voters have of saying that they have no desire for government by referendum, that the plebiscite was a form of manipulation favoured by Hitler and Mussolini, that members of Parliament are elected to make complex decisions on behalf of the people they represent, that an out vote would mean kissing goodbye to Scotland and that an immigration storm that blows up on the eve of decision day could change the course of British history.
They may also say that they do not like the way the battle has been waged – the hysterical scaremongering, the barrage of claims and counter claims, the plundering of statistics which appear to have no independent life of their own.
These people are being patronised and threatened – but they are no children; their only crime is to have grown old enough to cast a vote.
It is time to heed the voice of this silent majority, who may be keeping mum because they are being asked a question that should not have been asked, a bad question that is not being posed for the benefit of ‘the British people’.
Politicians are making frantic efforts to cure the stay-at-homes of their inertia and to get them to the booths on June 23. Yet the wisest choice may be to put an X on the third box, which blushes unseen.
By choosing this box, the voters will be joining the long line (rather than queue this time) of historical figures who, fighting for their lives in court, refused to answer the catch questions framed in the bigoted minds of interrogators bent on finding guilt.
In the year in which the 400th anniversary of Shakespeare’s death is being celebrated the abstainers will know that some of the biggest questions, as Hamlet realized, do not lend themselves to trite answers – and that, in the words of the playwright’s contemporary, John Donne, there are some, like the one about the bell, which yield answers which the questioner was not expecting to hear. They will also remember the words of Charles Caleb Colton: “the greatest fool may ask more than the wisest man can answer.”
David Cameron has said: “It is time for the British people to have their say.” His fear may be that they will indeed have their say by stepping aside from the narrow choice laid down for them and thinking outside the brace of boxes that has been prescribed.
if turkey are not joining the EU as Cameron states for years why did the European investment bank provide 80m euros funding for the expansion of the Ford Transit Factory
The significance of the loan was put under the spotlight after Ford announced the closure of its Southampton factory, and confirmed that production of the Transit would be moved to Koceali.
To all remainians please answer how did this help UK economy of the people in Southampton that lost their jobs
Britain now imports all Transit vans from Turkey How does this help our economy?
if turkey are not joining the EU as Cameron states for years why did the European investment bank provide 80m euros funding for the expansion of the Ford Transit Factory
The significance of the loan was put under the spotlight after Ford announced the closure of its Southampton factory, and confirmed that production of the Transit would be moved to Koceali.
To all remainians please answer how did this help UK economy of the people in Southampton that lost their jobs
Britain now imports all Transit vans from Turkey How does this help our economy?
George Osbourne declares UKIP poster vile whilst condoning the skinhead /Asian poster
the remain poster was equally Vile perhaps more so suggesting all vote leavers are brutish thugs
for brutishness, vile spin he should look to himself shame on you Osbourne and the rest of you remainers
L’Europe est avant tout une idée ambitieuse une passion être européen est une grande fierté c’est un projet pour l’avenir du monde 50 % d’amour ce n’est pas suffisant pour y participer
Switzerland ends bid to join European Economic Area – after 24 years
http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/16/switzerland-ends-bid-to-join-european-economic-area-after-24-years/
Having lived in Germany for over 10 years, with my son still working there I am supporter of the leave campaign. The high profile pundits and politicos have absolutely no idea of the real facts. For instance, Germany has continued to use illicit means through tax returns to support employers to pay below the agreed minimum wage and then use tax repayments to employees to make up the shortfall. These repayments are not subject to sanctions and are hidden. Therefore Germany is subsidizing its industries. Why then are we as the UK not allowed to bail out the Port Talbort workers. Why do EU countries (less UK) totally disregard the EU Working time directives, from working hours (including shift working) entitlement to leave allowances, health and safety at work. And therefore Employers recruit nondomiciled persons into jobs who accept these conditions. France subsidises it’s wine, Itialy its fashion but we as a So called Sovreign Country fail to see or challenge this. I could also go on about the German coal industry subsided against our former British Industry (denied by the Consverative Government). We all know what happened. I could gone on further, but what apalls me the most is a European Union of Forces. This would be the final defeat of the U.K. Adittionally, it has been stated that the American Nations, Canada etc. have state they wish us to remain in the EU, wonder why, an outgoing President (no disrespect to Obama) holds no argument. Other countries may think our respect and self contained borders may be a threat. What angers me most about this statement is that that remain campaign STATE that to remain will benefit this country regarding terrorism threats – how so we only have to look back at the recent awful acts and the release of the information that cross border controls between Germany, Belgium and France May have led to some of the awful losses. What has happened to Interpol?? What has happened to cross border relations
MJT. You’re absolutely RIGHT! It beggars belief that so many others can’t see the facts that are all around us, even many Conservative MPs are backing Brexit, which leads us to the conclusion that those MPs who are for Remain have vested interests. In future elections we must remember those that sold us down the river and make sure they don’t get elected again. WAKE UP BRITAIN! VOTE LEAVE.
I’m voting out, everyone I know is voting out. Time to make our own politicians more accountable. Time to end this madness. VOTE LEAVE
We can now see what a shambles this country is becoming our public services are suffering as we are giving more and more money propping up the idiocy of the EU.
BE INTELLIGENT LOOK AROUND YOU AND SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO BRITAIN ‘RULE BRITTANIA’ VOTE LEAVE!!
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-21/britain-doesnt-need-eu-thrive
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-22/extensive-interview-uk-political-giant-explains-why-he-voting-brexit
Tomorrow will be our last chance to save our democracy, for years our country has fought for our freedom, many laid down their lives for us, now or never will there be a time to give up our right to rule ourselves without outside interference. This is the time to stand up and be counted, whatever the consequences of leaving the E.U. it will get far worse if we stay. I have no vested interest, my concern is for those that I will leave behind, YES everyone of you, for years I’ve listened to politicians telling me what’s good or bad for me and guess what? invariably they’ve been proved WRONG, it’s been good or bad for them, NOT me. So I say to you “are you happy with what’s going on around you, do you really think it will get better?” NO of course it won’t, the fat cats look after themselves first and you second.
WAKE UP FROM THIS NIGHTMARE, VOTE LEAVE!
I’m thinking stay in. To me there’s too much at stake. But what ever happens we’ll all be in it together on Friday. So let’s try to make some good come out of all of this.
It’s not money, it’s not migration. It’s the basic nature and objectives and methodology of the EU, now an ideological juggernaut incapable of being reformed.
I’ve never been a Labour supporter, but I’ve always known that Tony Benn saw things clearly. Here is a speech of his that Norman Tebbit(!?) described as “the best speech he had heard in the House of Commons.
https://whitewednesday.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/tony-benn-on-democracy-and-the-eu-20th-november-1991/
This has top priority as to why I voted “leave” when I was finally given this chance.
That’s a pity – now we’re in for an interesting time.
And not just us. Dutch and French governments will be under appreciable pressure from their electorates, just for two.
Sorry for you, but I can’t call it a pity from my perspective.
I knew one side or the other would be needing the clip of Charlton Heston at the end of The Planet of the Apes.
We’ve got ou country back
Oh the irony…
and the fat lady is singing “Rule Britannia!”
So sad, esp. for the younger British, Scotish and Irish. Dragged out by elderly empire dreamers ;-(
Good luck for the future, you will need it.
” Dragged out by elderly empire dreamers” Have you actually met an “empire dreamer” I haven’t.
My leave vote was entirely looking forward, tinted only by the knowledge of lies and things carefully not said by the “stay” side in the the 1975 referendum.
And that’s called “experience”.
I don’t remember the histerical retortic I’m listening too from the bbc and remainians when the pound dropped 35% in 2010 it reached a low of 1.3631 from 2.06
And again in 2015 when rate dropped from 1.72 to 1.50 some 12%
Project fear continues… Don’t the retainers realise their cause has lost people rejected their ideals please have the Google grace to accept the will of the majority
Exactly Andrew, my first notification of the win came from my cousin in Australia, they are delighted that we can now trade with them, the PM needs to get himself together an unite the British people instead of this stupid decisive rhetoric
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Don’t take any notice of Adrian. Another leftie wetting the bed and throwing his toys out of the pram. VOTE LEAVE, oops, we already have. Top bantz.
At last common sense prevailed. “CONGRATULATIONS BRITAIN” now we’ve got our democracy back, we’ve had enough doom and gloom, now let’s get on with it. It was nice to see that the majority had faith in our country.
It’s obvious that some “Remainers” will be bad losers. BYE BYE!
We are celebrating the freedom of the British people.We are starting on a new regime,platform of progress.
Try for the best – but to me it’s so so sad – this triumphalism is unhelpful. I am a citizen too.
”Some of the great manufacturing nations,such like Japan,United States and Switzerland,do not have a common or a single currency with anyone else.They have a single currency of their own,and that does not hinder or affect their manufacturing position.Neither does it affect our position as the greatest financial centre in Europe that we are not like the yen ,but we are sterling and that we are not like the dollar ,but we are sterling.We trade in them all.”
Margaret Thatcher, House of Commons,1990
Does who are brainwashed by Brussels sprouts should wake up from their dreams.Does are the words of one the greatest,experienced and knowledgeable politicians of our times.
I listened to all the comments on BBC this morning; a young Polish woman commented – it’s alright if you have British passport!! Hello, none of us have British passport its European, my nationality being English.
The botched attempt by Prime Minister Cameron to comfort his power became a Pandora Box. He should resign for this. But the consequences for the country are of much greater importance. At the end of the day, I would like Britain to stay. This serious incident should however deliver a deep change in the way the EU works. Only then will it be worthwhile.
I find it quite incredible that the remain camp are calling for another referendum. Should we replay a football match when we get knocked out and re draw last weeks lottery if we dont get the right numbers. Do they only believe in democracy if they get their own way.
I can’t quite believe that the leave campaign that was,and now proved to be built on lies,can be democratic. The leavers were manipulated to believe the lies and total fiction that was presented to them,. People have very short memories of a past divided Europe,Im sure no one in the remain camp would claim the EU to be any where near perfect,but we have to be there to have a say and stay joined to our nearest allies. I have small grandsons,and I now truly fear for their futures.
Boris,Gove, & Farage. shame on you.
Lorraine. You assume that those who voted to leave did so because we were influenced by lies, we weren’t. Both sides were far from truthful, was it just a toss-up of which side we believed then? NO it wasn’t. Had the “Remain” side won then we could also say “that were influenced by lies” I don’t think that any of the people who voted were foolish enough to fall lies from either side, this would assume that the British people are all idiots, however there is no doubt in my mind that the fear factor from the “Remain” side did frighten many, the difference was the majority didn’t fall for this either and had the courage to vote for a true democracy.
If the Government had taken up a neutral position and were honest on what it would mean to remain and how things would work if we left, there would not be this mess now. They should have allowed the civil servants to plan for a brexit should the vote go that way and immediately invoked plan B which would have calmed the markets. The reason they did not prepare is that they were afraid that it would prove we could leave and they did not want to give the leave campain any credibility. Instead by proclaiming the sky will fall down it just added to the problem.
Is it any wonder that the people are so cynical of politicians? We have just had a referendum on the E.U. Which ever side you voted for, you must admit both sides were less than truthful. Right from the start, Cameron’s antics were laughable. you would think that anyone in his position would have learnt by now that bullying threats of fear is not the way to win an argument, the consequences were he got bloody nose, then as soon has he could he resigned with a comment “Why should I do all the hard s**t” “what’s the matter Dave were you only in it for an easy ride, is that why you threw everything at us bar the kitchen sink to get us to vote to remain? Leave the key under the mat!
Labour called on it’s supporters to swing the vote to Remain but. that didn’t work either, did they really think that Labour supporters would follow Labour’s lead blindly? Perhaps now, all political parties will realise, Conservative and Labour supporters didn’t believe the lies from either side, we couldn’t be frightened by fear tactics, we have survived far worse, we have faith in our people to build a better life for us all, we came together for one main reason only, we want a true Democracy whatever the costs.
And in the aftermath the fear tactics still go on in the financial markets, remember these too can be manipulated by the wealthy.
The people have spoken, you got us into this mess, you gave away our democracy, NOW GET ON WITH IT!
Markets have already recovered with the Footsie back at 6,300 today. Stirling continues to rise, it just shows that the shock was more about the scare preachers than actual market strength. If the government had planned for this it would not have happened at all. Roll on the next couple of years when those that believed all the scare stories can actually reflect and realise that life goes on and the world did not end.
Exactly Neil, we made the right choice. P.S. The german people are now calling for Dexit.
I’ve been doing quite a lot of reading on the topic trying to figure out what the potential impact of Brexit might be… Since different facts and data were all over the Internet, I decided to create an infographic that summarises the most trustworthy information I collected from top media. You can view the infographic here – http://blog.enhancv.com/infographic-brexit-impact-career-education/, its focus is How Could Brexit Affect Careers & Education, but also businesses. I’d be more than happy to hear your opinion and feedback!
Despite all the talk about how its going to affect us, nothing has made any change to my life at all, except today when they cut interest rates, I am now actually £20 a month better off. This is the only fact so far, nothing else has affected me.
Yes we should be in charge of our own fate.
Not ruled by unelected Bankers who seek to interpret us all as corporations, to become slaves to an elitist ideology. Control the goal.
Fooled and tooled the aim.
I’m not paranoid I have clarity,
Am I the only one who hears the double talk the lies after lies manipulation of statistics as stats are mainly meaningless. Unless all are asked, not a percentage.
There is little doubt that most people who voted in the referendum did not know what they were voting for this is hardly democratic New that the consequences of this vote are gradually sinking in it imperative that this nation is given the opportunity to voice its eyes open STOP BREXIT
Advise Ireland that we are being forced into a hard Brexit route and should this
happen as our planes will be grounded so will Ireland no longer be able to fly
from Dublin to the EU over UK airspace.
All this because an appeasement cannot be had with reference to the Irish border
problem ,and the disruption it wil cause .The eu takes years to try to agree trade agreements with a poor success ratio.We have only been trying to agree our leaving for months ,now years
The EU can whistle for the £39 billion .they want .No agreement .No money.
Perhaps some of the 1000s of eu staff can have their gold plated salaries and pensions reduced to mere mortal levels like all the hard working eu tax payers who don’t get up on a Monday morning knowing they get paid wether or not they
work unlike some!!!!!!!.
Rome grew to a size then it collapsed through greed ,infighting ,bad management.
The Eu cannot survive unless it cuts its bureaucratic ways ,cuts its staff costs to bear resemblance to average wages and starts to manage making descisions in months.
After all we all only live 75 yrs ish .
God knows what the situation will be if our governing bodies don’t wake up and work ,making sensible decisions within a reasonable time frame considering all the populous welfare and not wether their bar at work and luncheons have wine
foe free!,,
Normal working people don’t drink whilst working .
Yours W
In POLAND NOW
Left UK can not trust what goes on in Conservative England. DNA is 87% Irish 13% European that is 100%
European! Not British is ?