UPDATE 11/09/17: Catalonia will hold a referendum on independence on 1 October 2017. The Spanish Constitutional Court has ruled the vote illegal, and the central government in Madrid is strongly opposed. However, the regional Catalan government argues this is a question of national self-determination, and that international law is more important than Spanish constitutional law.
So, events are coming to a head. The courts have ruled the referendum illegal, but Catalonia’s government has pledged to hold it anyway. There is apparently little appetite for an independent Catalonia among Spain’s European partners, with EU Member States arguing this is an internal matter for Spain.
In 2014, Catalonia held a non-binding referendum (or “popular consultation”) on independence, with over 80% of votes cast supporting Catalonia becoming an independent state. However, critics argue that turnout was low because many people boycotted the referendum (no official turnout figures were released). Artur Mas, then-President of Catalonia, was convicted of abuse of power and was fined and barred from public office for 2 years. Could a similar result be on the cards this time?
UPDATE 28/09/15: Catalonia is on a collision course with the central government in Spain after regional elections on 27 September delivered a majority of seats to pro-independence candidates. The nationalist coalition Junts pel Sí (‘Together for Yes’) is projected to recieved 62 seats in the 135-seat regional parliament; not enough to govern alone, but Junts pel Sí could go into coalition with the far-left pro-independence Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP), which is set to gain 10 seats.
However, despite winning a combined majority of seats, pro-independence parties failed to capture a majority of the popular vote, with only 47.9% of Catalans voting for pro-independence candidates. This means the result would have officially fallen short of a victory for the pro-independence side in a real referendum; nevertheless, the incumbent Catalan President, Artur Mas, has declared that Catalonia will begin negotiating independence from Spain immediately, aiming for a complete break within 18 months.
PUBLISHED ON 22/09/15: In 18 months, Catalonia could be independent from Spain. On 27th September, Catalans will vote to elect a new regional government. The majority of pro-independence parties have joined together to form Junts pel Sí (United for a Yes Vote), and polls show they could be heading for a win on Sunday.
Madrid has blocked a straight referendum on independence, so the incumbent President of the Government of Catalonia, Artur Mas, has framed the regional election as an indirect vote on secession. If he wins a majority of seats (even if he doesn’t obtain a majority of the popular vote), Mas says he will declare unilateral independence and aims to complete the split from Spain within 18 months.
Opponents are predicting chaos if pro-independence forces win. The governor of the Bank of Spain has warned that an independent Catalonia would be kicked out of the eurozone. Even FC Barcelona is not above the fray; the president of La Liga, the Spanish football association, has threatened to boot Catalonia out of the Spanish leagues.
In 2012, our partner think tank Friends of Europe hosted an event with Artur Mas, President of the Government of Catalonia. In a speech that was broadcast around the world, Mas set out his argument for an independent Catalonia. You can see video from the speech below:
We had a comment sent in from Anem, who believes that pro-independence parties will dominate the election on 27th September. If that happens, how should Madrid react? And how would it affect Catalonia’s relations with the rest of Spain?
To get a response, we spoke to Carlos Rivadulla, deputy president of Businessmen of Catalonia, an association whose members are opposed to Catalan independence. What would he say to Anem?
We also had a comment sent in from Xavi, who firmly believes that Catalonians want the opportunity to vote for independence.
What happens if pro-independence parties win the vote in Catalonia? How should Madrid react? And how would it affect Catalonia’s relations with the rest of Spain? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
477 comments Post a commentcomment
This post is wrong. What is voted is the government is Catalonia. Another thing is that the current government of Catalonia wants to place the light on emotions, flags, hate, and so forth to continue ruling Catalonia. If we talk about their management no one with some commonsense will vote them.
No hate at all. Proindepence parties love spanish people and culture.
The point is that we are feed up of Spanish missGoverment and fiscal exploitation
.
Spain has 2 choices:
1. Accept the will of the people
2. Invade.
How can a country invade itself? Catalonia is and always has been Spanish, this manipulation and distortion of the facts is the reason why nobody can take the independentists seriously. What you mean is: ‘The central government has 2 choices’, not Spain. Bojos tots!
Invade????
@Justin
County of Catalonia was part of Aragon Crown, my friend… and Spain not even exists. Read a little and learn about this matter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon
–CRAZY
We will declare independence and we will start shaping our own State! That’s what happens!
You are all deluded! I will ne moving straight away
They will pretend to be independent, and the Spanish state will pretend they are a part of Spain?
Until Catalonia makes a Unilateral Declaration of Independence and that is all.
“If he wins a majority of seats (even if he doesn’t obtain a majority of the popular vote), Mas says he will declare unilateral independence and aims to complete the split from Spain within 18 months. Opponents are predicting chaos if pro-independence forces win.”
Well, yes, obviously there will be chaos if the maniac declares UDI with a majority of seats (which he might get with the help of some very dodgy allies, friends of ETA) rather than of votes (which he is very unlikely to get) and without the support of Barcelona and Tarragona (which he certainly won’t get).
“The governor of the Bank of Spain has warned that an independent Catalonia would be kicked out of the eurozone.”
Wrong. Linde has pointed out that there might be exchange controls because of the obvious fact that if a country voluntarily changes its constitutional status so as to make itself ineligible for EU membership, then it ipso facto excludes itself from the eurozone. That is different from being ‘kicked out’.
“Even FC Barcelona is not above the fray; the president of La Liga, the Spanish football association, has threatened to boot Catalonia out of the Spanish leagues.”
Wrong again. Spain’s sports law says quite reasonably that only Spanish teams can play in La Liga. True, there is an exception for Andorra but there is none for Portugal and there is no reason why one should be made for Catalonia. That is different from being ‘booted out’. If Catalonia becomes independent, it can have its own league like any other independent country. The other teams in La Liga would be delighted to get rid of Barça and increase their own chances of dominating it.
Why do you publish nationalist propaganda??
Since when is Portugal part of Spain? (Not yet – not for lack of trying)
Quite right Peter.
Ok so..the ones who base your articles on insults an associations like Catalan Independentist=crazy terrorist ..could you please elaborate? I thought this is supposed to be a serious intellectual debate with strong arguments, I mean..backed with articles from experts or analysis from academic people. saying people are crazy is just childly and shows racism, intolerance and irresponsability.
Catalan peopl don’t exist right now, they just exist legally as Spanish. They are willing to change that and recover sovereignty to change everything. Spanish government insults, warns and says they will send us the army, Sesam Street Puppets, BATMAN, Putin and the wizzard of Oz. So..Sunday will be interesting.
The right to exist is a right Catalan people have, they don t have to ask for permission to any Spaniard to know what people in Catalonia think or want.
Concordo com o que Wiktor Anilom afirma, o povo é que twm o direito a dizer o que irá fazer se depois do referendo aceite pelo calares. E, já agora, não se desunam. VIVA CALALUÑA como estado independente.
Let them express their opinion and wishes for an independent Catalonia. It seems that there is much more emotions and feelings into the elections than rational thinking.
ROTFL…
1. Constitutions change if the people wishes it. Simple!
2. It’s a matter of choice and will both for the Catalans as for the rest of the Spanish.
3. Those choices have, both, pros and cons either way. So, really, start thinking on what each want, what one is willing to do to get it, and what one is willing to really “pay” to get it.
After that one must not forget that Spain isn’t A country but a Federation of Peoples/States, even though they may try to hide it from time to time. It was a, major, blunder (in my opinion) on their part BUT it was the way they thought better (so who am I to question it)!
Being a Federation implies that there’s more than one single people, although with time they may start seeing themselves as A single people (but that’s another story altogether). Since it implies there’s more than one people and since Spain does state that it’s a Democracy. It must, either, rethink itself onto stopping being a federation so that secession plans/plots stop making any sense or accept the will of those peoples that comprise the Spanish Federation to referendum if they want to keep in the Spanish Federation or take another path.
It happened with Scotland within the U.K., so it shouldn’t pose any problem besides the government in Madrid being unable to separate Federation, in the present form, from Imperialism in a camoflage net ;)
Mate, Spain is NOT a federation. The Constitution clearly states Spain is only one state and does not endorse any interpretation to the contrary to imply that it is just a patchwork of federated territories. Anyone familiar with our history will tell you that the union of Spain dates back at least 300 years, some go as far back as 500. Just to focus things, Catalonia has never been a nation (it’s never even been a kingdom, but a group of earldoms) and it has historically been integrated in a bigger realm, the Crown of Aragon (the rest of which región are very comfortable with their Spanish condition and do not harbour any nationalist feelings). Nationalism is a contemporary invention which only serves politicians’ (not política) interests.
And something else: of course constitutions change if the people wish it, ours does too! (Sections 166 to 168 of the Spanish Constitution). But since it is a norm that belongs to ALL Spaniards, so all our opinions are required to change it. Catalonians are welcome to vote, as long as Galicians, Basques, Andalusians, Balearics, Canarians, Madridians and the rest of the Spanish people can vote too.
To compare Catalonia go Scotland is to ignore serious diferentes between the two.
@Jorge,
OK España tendra unos 300 años, pero Cataluña tiene más de 1000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon
‘The Aragonese empire originated in 1137, when the Kingdom of Aragon and the County of Barcelona (with the County of Provence, Girona, Cerdanya, Osona and other territories) merged by dynastic union[6][7] upon the marriage of Raymond Berenguer IV of Barcelona and Petronilla of Aragon; their individual titles combined in the person of their son Alfonso II of Aragon, who ascended to the throne in 1162. This union respected the existing institutions and parliaments of both territories. Although the County of Barcelona had more wealth (given its position on the Mediterranean and strong family ties in Occitania), the combined state was initially known as Regno, Dominio et Corona Aragonum et Catalonie, and later as Corona Regum Aragoniae,’
Easy to answer. Remenber what happened in Yugoslavia in the nineties?
The autonomy of Cataluña will be suspended as per our constitution and after the constitutional court decides. This should have been done years ago, but too many corrupt politicians in the mix.
Send them the Greek crisis
they will not win !!:)
ProIndependence parties won Laura!
Just Spain will lose as territories Catalunia, Basquonia, Andalus and probably Asturia. and the Iberia will have 5-6 states with major one called Portugal…LOL
PS: There is also a possibility to be created a Peoples Republic in land of Basques…
Vivat Catalonia!
Let’s keep our fingers crosses they do. A growing number are totally disillusioned with the EU and all it stands for.
Agree! Not just in Spain but all over Europe
After many time injuring Spain to Catalonia, humiliating his culture and identity just by the fact catalan people is more close to european mentality, they will built a country with their own values and their own wealth.
Will happen that which Spain deserve – to lose its richest land. And the catalonian people will have that they deserve – freedom. ¡Vivat Catalonia! It is not Spain!
Their decision must be respected.That’s democracy.
It is the beginning of the Iberian Union or the Iberian Federation.
Blablabla. They won’t be able to separate from Spain unless the mayority of Spaniards decide so. That’s the law and THAT’S democracy.
No, what you say is not democracy. It is just what Spanish fake of democracy states. Check with real democracies like UK or Canada what to do in same circunstances and you will find:
REFERENDUM in Catalonia
Had to laugh at the Spanish bank governor warning that Catalonia could be kicked out of the Euro,as if that would be a deterrent.This vote will be a welcome dose of democracy not just for the incompetent and corrupt Spanish politicians but for politicians all over Europe.And just remember the independence vote in Scotland a few months ago,although the pro-independence party lost they still managed to get some big concessions from the U.K government.
A peaceful negotiation must start in order to recognize Catalonia as EU member state.
http://blogs.mediapart.fr/blog/stephane-riand/220915/catalogne-cinq-conseillers-nationaux-de-la-suisse-deposent-une-interpellation-au-conseil-federal
Peace
All this process has been and will be peaceful.
European governments always have a solution for all sorts of peoples, and pseudo-peoples, who want independence. They should know what to do at home.. or is european promotion of «self determination» only valid when applied to CERTAIN regions of the world?
ADOCTRINATION ….. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1PDl-ogHdg
https://www.facebook.com/bcnisnotcat
¡¡Freedom to Barcelona and Tarragona!!…. Barcelona-Tarragona is not Cataluña.
tu flipas !
Secessionism in Catalonia indoctrinates children.
Learning both languages Catalan and Spanish in Catalonia is just the right thing to do to avoid differences among alumni.
If this is indoctrination for you it means you do not know the meaning of this word
Psss … from a legal point of view, there is a legal way of being independent.
If they do not follow it, they should go to jail, asaanyone breaching the Law.
Even if they follow the due procedure, the new state would be out of the European Union, according to the Vienna Convention about Treaties Law.
Taking into account that public finances in Catalonia are broken, and that the private deposits’ insurance scheme is Spanish, that would be interesting to behold.
But that will not stop Catalonian independentism Big Wigs. They have plenty of money, and what they want is to avoid the trials for corruption, fraud, bribes… that the Spanish courts have already settled against them, and the ones that may come. Obviously, ruining their fellow citizens have never been a major concern for them.
So…. They will go to jail no matter what they do.
Absolutely true, all of it!
You cannot put in jail more than 2,2 milion catalans who vote proindependence parties,… with their families and children we are at least half the country.
Come to Catalonia and try it if you dare
Personally I do not see this as a good way forward splitting one country.we all are Europeans at the end of day; however will of the Catalan people can’t be ignored. If they so terribly want its own state let them do it.
We want to be part of an united Europe, but as a sovering country not as a sub member of Spain! We want our own to have our say in EU just like any regular country! We are a nation without a state right now, we don’t feel the Spanish state is representing the Catalans but feel the contrary, and we should be able as a nation with an own language and culture to decide how we want to be part of Europe! We are peaceful and democratic, four years of some of the biggest demonstrations in Europe without a single incident show it! Let us decide in peace and respect out will please, I’m tired of hearing how Spain will not only not respect it but will put in jail our democratic elected leader, will suspend our government and so on! Even on this comment section some people are saying this… This is shameful and shows how they treat Catalonia in a way that we do not like… Visca la democràcia i visca Catalunya i Europa!
As a Swiss I am for the rights of people to decide their own destiny with democatic votes. If Spain is smart it will approach the Catalan people with a offer of some kind of treaty to deal with the problems the Catalonians think exist, this could be a compromise to avert actuall independence from Espagna, if Spain refuses to acknoledge & address their concerns then the Catalonians will continue to make their demands and eventually there may be a break. The Spaniards underestimate the Catalan peoples power.
I think that if Spanish government decides to make a consult from spaniards, spain will definitely say “let them go” we are sick of this. The only reason they are still in spain is monetary reasons. They have been stealing Spanish people since they are in spain. Spain created a toll system just to promote catalonia welfare. We invested all our efforts in it. I.e. Manufactured cloths. Spain use to sell wool to england and get high quality clothes. Spanish government decided to close that deal in order to promote catalonia welfare and industry. They sold bad quality clothes to spain, and british clothing, though it was higher quality and shiper, it becomes unaforthdable for Spanish. How did we get a reward? Once they become wealthier than the rest of spain, they decided they don’t want to be Spanish anymore.
In my opinion, they should be out of spain. And of course, I will choose not to buy any catalonian ítem. I won’t spend one more euro in historia economy. Funny fact, 80% of his trade goes to spain. I will choose what I do with my money, and it will be to buy Spanish goods, or european goods, but never again catalonian goods. They do not deserve my money. Of course I am just one person, but what do you think if the rest of spaniards do the same? This is about to happen, and that is why allthe big business in catalonia are about to migrate if independence ever happens.
@Lluis,
Creo que la historia que explicas no es real. Te recomiendo esta de Xavier Sala-i-Martín és Catedràtic de Columbia University i Professor Visitant de la Universitat Pompeu Fabra
(…)
‘Supongo que la confusión les viene a algunos por el hecho de que a los economistas nos gusta organizar los datos según la “balanza de pagos”. De un modo muy resumido, las exportaciones netas de un país deben ser iguales a la suma del aumento en la cantidad de dinero (divisas en el caso de que los dos países no tengan la misma moneda), más el aumento en las cantidad de activos (la llamada balanza de capitales), más las transferencias unilaterales. En otras palabras, cuando consumidores españoles compran productos catalanes, pueden pasar tres cosas: o bien pagan con dinero (entrada de “divisas”, en este caso pesetas, en Catalunya), o bien se les concede un crédito (déficit de balanza de capitales), o bien no pagan nada (transferencia unilateral, similar a un déficit fiscal). Desde un punto de vista contable, las tres cosas parecen equivalentes ya que sirven como “contrapartida” al superávit comercial. Desde un punto de vista económico, sin embargo, es muy distinto vender a cambio de dinero o de crédito que a cambio de nada. De hecho, no hay nada como un crédito para que le compren productos a uno.
Y antes de que el gran manipulador distorsione mis palabras (una vez más), me gustaría dejar muy claro que con el ejemplo imaginario no pretendo acusar a España de robar dinero. En otras ocasiones he utilizado otro ejemplo de transferencia unilateral, una donación, con el mismo resultado. De hecho, hay quien piensa que la donación es un ejemplo más apropiado si se tiene en cuenta el concepto de solidaridad: “Catalunya podría querer tener déficit fiscal porque quiere ser solidaria con España”, dirían. En este caso, para que pudiera elegir libremente, sería justo que se le preguntara a cada familia catalana: ¿Quiere usted regalar una media de 600.000 pts anuales, a cambio de nada, para ser solidario con España? Que no se le intente engañar con: “entréguenos 600.000 pts anuales, y no se queje porque este dinero sirve para comprar productos catalanes por lo que aún salen ganando”. Este último es un razonamiento falaz que debería desaparecer de una vez por todas del debate sobre la balanza fiscal.’
http://www.columbia.edu/~xs23/catala/articles/lluch/deficit.htm
Madrid should discuss the issue in a mature way. There are plenty of good reasons why Catalonia should remain part of Spain but most Castillians seem to only use facile and childish arguments.
I agree with you that unionism arguments in Spain are childish, but honestly speaking I cannot see any good reason why Catalonia should to remain in Spain.
– Every single law approved by Catalan Parliament is banned by Spanish goverment.
– Catalan Airports and Ports cannot develop normally because Central goverment organism avoids free market competition within Spain (Ex: forbid and minimize the amount of intercontinental flights from BCN airport)
– Fiscal deficit is about 16000 m€ per year in favor of Spain
– My President (mr Mas) is trailed by Spanish court just because he set up a nonbinding consultation about indepence the 9Nov 2014.
– The day of Mr Mas declaration to the court is the 75th aniversary of the assassination Mr Companys former Catalan goverment President by Spanish Fascist goverment.
– Spanish Goverment in democracy never appologized for this magnicide
– systematical attacks insults by the Spanish media, Spanish culture minister to my Catalan culture
…. and there is soooo much more …
Oligarchs from Madrid and Barcelona’s fight for their share of corrupt money and power…
Nothing. Absolutly nothing. After a short period of national and international circus. Spain will adjust the huge loss, Catalonia will learn that create a country it is not a fairy tail and international comunity after the circus, a period of silence and underground negociations will accept and wellcome the new menber. That’s life, that’s the way it is, that’s the world rules. Ask checzs and eslovaquians; they know how to split in a great perfomançe.
Democratic will should be respected. Negotiations must start.
Fredom is a big issue . Must be respected by every one. Is the step for no war.
Spain will never accept Cataluña’s independence. There are kingdoms in Spain but Cataluña have never been an independent nation. It doesn’t have any historical right to independence. Cataluña’s nationalism is born to support a group of corrupt oligarchs to make money taking a percentage from any government contract and for legislative initiatives in favour of those oligarchs companies
The definition of a nation in international law is fluid, but there is no serious school of thought that would argue that a historical lack of independence should be the critical factor. Ultimately, nations have to be self-defining otherwise big nations can impose their will on smaller ones, and insist on union.
There is a reasonable de minimis argument, by which e.g. Spain can reasonably argue that a tiny territory like Gibraltar should not have the right to national self-determination. However, this argument would clearly not apply to a territory the size of Catalonia.
Catalonia was born more than 1000 years ago.
If you look for oligarch companies and a goverment favouring them, just look at IBEX index and BOE set up in Madrid
When Europeans are suffering the german domination again, what Iberia should do is unifying. Together Spain and Portugal will hold more power than divided, and power means freedom.
The freedom that Spain provides to its territory Catalania is ZERO
Any law, tax, or action approved by local goverment is systematically banned by Spanish Constitutional Tribunal
I do not want their ‘freedom’
I can see the Spanish perspective that Spain is a relatively new democracy that has come through many difficulties to achieve its current level of stability. On the other hand, every nation has the right to self-determination.
In practice, Catalonia is big enough and self-sufficient enough to define itself as a nation and go its own way, if it chooses. For Spain to say “the constitution says no” means only that the constitution is out-of-date and inconsistent with modern ideas of democracy.
I think that if the Spanish government gave its blessing to a referendum and its politicians walked the streets of Barcelona to make the case for union, then there would not be a majority for independence. However, the current intransigence of the Spanish government is more likely to push people towards desiring and voting for independence.
Nothing at all. Respect the LAW
Si se independizan q sea para todo .Q es eso de doble nacionalidad q piden? Para pertenecer a Europa?
Para seguir en la selección ,etc
Solo para los derechos ,para las obligaciones ,no?
Si te independizas es con todas las consecuencias
por que tu lo digas
En mi passaporte pone UE y no pienso renunciar ni a el ni a la libertad de mi pueblo catalan
Madrid should react piecefully with acceptance and preparing to restructure the state.
Nothing, just more pressure for semi-autonomy.
We tried that for 40 year.
I can tell you, it is useless… Spaininsh Goverment keep walking backwards recentralization
It seems that separatist forces are rising, but it is not really true. Actually and according to the polls, all the separatists together will get hardly the 50% in this Election, while in 2012 they got almost the 60%. The Government of Artur Mas says that the will declare unilaterally independence even though they don’t have the majority of votes, even if they don’t have a majority of MPs, because they consider that it is valid to get a majority of MPs in co-alition with the pancatalanist, europhobic and left-wing populist CUP, even though they don’t get a majority of votes together. I personally think that declaring unilaterally the independence of Catalonia against the will of the majority of Catalans is not democratic at all, actually I see it more like a coup d’Etat.
Guillermo, you are not well informed
In 2012 the target was a REFERENDUM not the independence, that is why on 9th November 2014 it was set a participation poll to try to do it. About 2,3 milion votes were counted by volunteers with the result of President Mas being trialed by Spanish Court
IN 2015 the target was INDEPENDENCE, new parties appeared like PODEMOS and others split like CDC and Unio
I am not talking about targets, I am talking about Elections and results, because the Election of the past 9/27 were actually Parliamentary Election. I am not talking about 11/9, I am talking about the Parliamentary Election in 2012, and the fact is that pro-independence parties have lost support, since in 2012 together they got 74 MPs and the 48% of the votes and now they have got together 72 MPs and the 47% of the votes. Actually this reveals that the number of pro-independence citizens does not increase, but strictly it has dicreased.
Dear Mr. Passas, let me show you in a simple way what had happen in Catalonia in the last 5 years. From 2010, we may see 3 blocks of candidacies in every election:
1. A first block evolving from willing to negotiate a new deal between Catalonia and Spain in 2010 to willing to negotiate a legal referendum with the Spanish Government in 2012 and in 2015 willing to negotiate a legal referendum and a new deal. (Negotiation)
2. Willing to declare independence of Catalonia (Independence)
3. Willing to keep the statu quo of Catalonia within Spain (Statu quo)
The results were:
– 2010 Turnout 66,29%
Negotiation 64,18% 100 seats (CiU, PSC, ICV-EUiA)
Independence 11,56% 14 seats (ERC, SI, RI)
Statu quo 18,16% 21 seats (PPC, C’s, PxC)
– 2012 Turnout 67,76%
Negotiation 55,00% 83 seats (CiU, PSC, ICV-EUiA)
Independence 18,45% 24 seats (ERC, SI, CUP)
Statu quo 22,63% 28 seats (PPC, C’s, UPyD)
– 2015 Turnout 77,74%
Negotiation 11,45% 11 seats (CSQEP, UD)
Independence 47,74% 72 seats (JpSí, CUP)
Statu quo 39,17% 52 seats (PPC, PSC, C’s)
As you may see, support for Independence has rised dramatically in only 5 years. Actual figures in % cannot be deducted from these polls. The only democratic way of measuring support for Independence is through a referendum but Spanish Government has not allowed it.
The thing with legality is that it creates extrange situations, for instance: the Estatuto de Autonomía for Cataluña, which is a kind of Constitution at a regional level says in its article 223 that any reform of the Estatuto requires 2/3 of the votes of the Catalan Parliament…..but for a more serious event, as it is an unilateral declaration of independence the separatist say that its enough with 1/2 seats in parliament or 1/2 of the votes. How inconsistent is this? Fellow europeans, this is not a call for more democracy, human rights etc etc. Its just a farse, lies, manipulation and hate.
So you do not allow Catalans to vote in a Referemdum, but pretend to set the rules for them to selfdeterminate… interesting
nothing.This referendum is not recognised by the Spanish Constitution. Viva Espan~a
This is not but a bunch of puppeteers playing with their dolls. Politicians from both sides are trying to manipulate their people in order to get more power. Nothing is going to change, money and power will just split but corruption and bad management of the public issues will continue. Catalonians are delusional and Madrid is blind and selfish. Their politicians need to cooperate and to look after people’s needs.
We Catalans might be dilusional for you, but wer re really illusionated and passionate to win our freedom. See images of last proindepence demonstration (around 2 Milion people)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xO5ulXs1do
PS. Catalania has 7,5 M hab
If Independence is declared unilaterally the Spanish Constitution allows the central government to intervene the regional government
therefore it will allow central goverment to become an occupation power in catalonia…. very democratic
Cataluña can’t exist without Spain. No independent Cataluña!
Really?
Why not try and see?
Los nacionalismos es una ruina para Europa.
Si, por ejemplo el nacionalismo español… y olé
Nada,no pasará nada. Unos cuantos meses de jaleo,pero poco más
Who decides which people have rights and which people haven’t? i am curious..
D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y!!! democracy never is a problem!! let catalans vot, let catalans decide, freedom for Catalonia!
Democracy will win and Catalans will be able to have their says. No MORE threat.
Here an academic analysis regarding the question of Catalan potential secession and EU membership status. http://www.slissner.de/en/catalonia-scotland-and-the-question-of-eu-membership-in-case-of-secession/
The only problem with catalan nationalists is they despise democracy. Democracy is not only the simple thought of:”the winner takes all” is much more than that. First of all, the president of the autonomous region of Catalonia is bound to the spanish constitution, thanks to which he holds this amount of power( even more than in some federal states like Canada). Thus he is the official representative of the State in his region, meaning he doesn’t only govern for his own voters but also for the rest that hasn’t voted for him. Declaring unilateral independance, is breaking the rules but even worse it supposes breaking the trust of millions of people that vote for non- nationalist options. Then, the catalan pro- independent movement has dramatically increases since the crisis started in 2009. Catalan claims are quite simple: they want more money and don’t want to offer anything back. They critizice the lack of infrastructure and public funding but what they haven’t realized is that is happening everywhere not only in Catalonia.
The principle of solidarity, existing in any developed country such as Germany, Italy or France, makes that wealthier regions contribute more than others so as to balance the public accounts. The only problem is that catalan think they are the only net contributors whereas Madrid, Basque Country or Navarre have a higher GDP and don’t feel “victims” of this system. In addition to that, their other big concern is the corruption of their own politians: Pujol, Montilla, Mas; that have commited massive fraud( Andorra bank accounts) and haven’t declared their taxes for decades. Are we spaniards responsible of the unethical behaviour of your politicians?? No we are not. Their only wish is living in the uthopia of having all the rights without any duties.
I can’t dispute your knowledge of Spanish politics but, speaking very generally, every sizeable group of people has the right to identify itself as a nation, and govern themselves how they choose. Obviously, they must then accept any negative consequences that come from secession.
Your first assessment is not true
You say that ‘ the president of the autonomous region of Catalonia is bound to the spanish constitution, thanks to which he holds this amount of power’
but, if you check the records you can clearly see that on 2nd Restoration of Catalonia’ss Generalitat we had first a President (Josep Tarradellas 1977) and the year after the Spanish Constitution was approved 1978.
PS. Catalonia has a Constitution and a Generalitat President since 1283.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalitat_of_Catalonia
Pro-independence parties have won the regional vote in Catalonia for many years now. What’s different about this time?
In 2010 CiU, which won the polls, had in it’s program negotiating a new economical treaty with Madrid. Madrid refuses even to talk about.
Then CiU government dissolved Catalan Parliament and called new polls in 2012.
This time they presented in their program, as other parties did, the intention to call for a cesession referendum. CiU won again, without absolut majority, but obtained the help of ERC to back their government. Madrid barred any possibility to host such a referendum and denied to enter into negotiation.
This time part of CiU and other pro-independence parties decided to ask for popular support for independence, using the regional polls as a matter of plebiscit. In their joint program they propose to start a secession process if they obtain majority of seats.
So, were is the difference?
That in previous polls a process for independence was not actually in their program and therefore their considered not having support to go ahead.
Now pro-independence parties are asking votes to obtain a democratic mandate to start the secession process.
We will proclaim the independence of Catalonia….Spain is pain..bye bye
http://youtu.be/65dkCds920I
11 September 2015
http://youtu.be/4xO5ulXs1do
11 September 2014
http://youtu.be/hNtgcvojWPQ
11 September 2013
http://youtu.be/7fCqZAnl_jY
Not Catalan Government nor Spanish Government are working in the right way. This is a normal regional poll, but Catalan Government wish to use it to declare the independence of Catalonia. And on the other hand Spanish Government doesn’t allow Catalans to vote in correct referendum to decide Catalans if they continues into Spain or will be Catalonia a new independent country… But basically, politicians from one side and the other are thinking about the way to continue with the control of the different public institutions.
Federico Tilli caricaaa
Under which law Catalonia was incorporated into Spain? Under the law of bayonets and bombs.
Someone have said: political imbalace. True. Catalonia is over represented at national parliament comparing population with other territories. Linguistic problems: yes. There are a few court sentences condening regional government because parents cannt decide to teach children spanish. Can see in internet how public regional tv ask a citizen to talk correctly. The rest is a matter of politics.
Local Public TV helps teaching correct catalan. I think it is positive to learn both languages.
PS. There are 15 times more TV’s channels in spanish than catalan in Catalonia,
There is no democracy without rule of law.
The Rule of Law does not means democracy.
I know a lot of countries who work according their Laws and has not democracy at all.
Las DIU son legales…
is right
They will forget years of financial explotation, of cultural abuse and of radicalism and lies in the public life is driving to Spain to the end. Later Basques, Balearics, Navarras, Valencians, Gaelician… they all will march of the Spanish intolerance and financial manipulation.
Every people has the right to choose the best for them ;)
Whith the law
Unionist tend to be obsessed with Law, because it is the only way they find to try to stop Catalan freedom.
Martin Luther King, Jr.’s comment in his famous letter from Birmingham Jail: “One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
The problem with Catalonia is only one: money. But there are some Catalans who think that they are fighting for something amazing, freedom ¿??¿, and I do not know how many nonsense more… they are all manipulated.
Catalonia: debt, corruption, impolite, fanatics… but to cover all these things the best is to blame Madrid. The more governance Catalonia has had, the more corruption and misery they have… and to avoid talking about the right things they blame Madrid all day, every day in their tv, tv3, their newspaper, and, the worst, in even schools to create robots talking all day that Spain hates Catalans…. meanwhile no one ask them about economic nor nothing. Only flags and emotions. It is very sad.
What it is really sad is to read that you keep trying to connect Catalonia with corruption when everyone in Europe knows that Spanish central power lead by PP is by far leading this unfamous league
The problem with the relation Catalonia/rest of Spain is large and long…it comes from the 11th century. I think the only way is to grant Catalonia a different status as to the other regions (the basc country have already a different one). But it`s difficult to reach en agreament without an exterior party.
Nothing is going to happen. It’s a bluff.
wait and see
It will be an open door for Muslims in Norway, Flemish in Belgium, Hungarian in Romania.., I do not understand : we want Europe or we actually prepare it to he back as before hundred if years?!
THE END OF B|ARCA soccer super stars…Ah! Ah!
El que quiere independizarse se va de casa
Catalonia will lose part of Spanish Market share. Customers will check labels in products.
IT is already happening… so what? is this a prove of Spanish love to Catalans?
I want an Europe of the Countries not an United States of Europa. Current borders don’t represent the variety of Europe. We have arrived to this point because Madrid did it really really bad. I don’t want the independence of Catalonia (even I consider myself more Catalonian than Spanish), but if I could vote, I would vote for independence. I believe I understand how catalonians feel.
We will have another bickerer chicken in the European nationalistic henhouse
nothing, catalynia is spain forever
You have a big family (mom dad grandma and 6 children with different ages) living in a building with garden parking and swimming pool. One Day dad propose to the family to independence from the rest of the neighboors and all family members vote to do it. So they decide to put a fence in part of the garden and the swimming pool to keep it only for them and make a particular entrance for their flat and station parking braking part of the walls of the building. All of this actions were making without the approval of the rest of the community. You have the right to decide whatever thing you are allow to do. You can’t decide if you are black when you are White and so on.
Just nothing
Catalonian politicians has been lying to the Catalans during 20 years… Europeans: Madrid never has stolen anything to Catalonia .. Actually Catalonia is what it is thanks to the rest of Spain which set all the companies and industry in Catalonia.. And now Catalans betray us asking for the independence … Totally disaster … Never in European history a region has had such a level of autonomy and self- govern ment…
So pathetic: denying, wining and threating, we’re only constructing a new republic. #ByebyeSpain
Catalonia Jügend clearly depicted on the photo
I dont know if cataluña would be spain for ever. But i know how we must react: rule of law. Out of law, out of human righs is fascism with out respect for minorities un that territory.
I think is really sad how thr politicians from Catalonia re lying to the catalans, also how they try to make the Barcelona citizens think that they ve a more productive city than Madrid or, also, how they try to make then believe that Spain is unfair with them at the moment of preparing the national budgets. They recieve a huge quantity and if they finally get what half of his population (more or less) want… they will not achieve a system (able) to afford all the services and facilities which they enjoy just for being part of Spain. Such a sad situation, a big lie
Nothing. It’s just noise to hide economical disaster
Independencia per Catalunya Tots JUNTS PER EL SI. Adéu Espanya.
I per un govern regional s’acrediten mes de 450 periodistes d’arreu del mon….au vinga!
My bet: tomorrow NO is going to win for an amazing difference… most of Catalans are not stupid… Visca Catalunya!!! Junts pel si is a fanatic gang….
I’ve lived in Barcelona for 9 years. My children are taught hatred to Spain and Catalan nationalism , public school there is crazy
Ed, I’ve lived in Barcelona for 40 years. You just lie
It happens they must govern as a democratic regional authority for all, not only their voters. After forty years autonomy they could not pass an election rule becuase they never have two of three mayority at the local parlament. How do they want to build a country against forty per cent of population.
The problem os that when you want to divorce your woman, but you still wnt to keep fucking her. And thats what catalanes want.
Viva a Catalunha independente
If they win it today, I will be moving out asap, tomorrow I will take all the money in all the banks in cataluna, allot of international companies will leave, including where I work. Airport Barcelona is from Spain not from cataluna, what money you are going to pay with? So many things are hiden and these sneeky politicians just brainwahs you all!
Independencia para los productos catalanes!!
Today those who believe that CataluÑa is going to be a new country are going to cry on the bed…. “No” is going to win, CataluÑa does not want to be independent because most of Catalans do not want to. The problem is that those who dream with it make a lot of noise, but nothing is going to chance. I am not neither Catalan nor I live in Catalonia, the Independence is not my business, but this process is a scam and very close to Nazism.
If you are so sure that ‘most of Catalans do not want independence’… why do not let us vote in referéndum?
How can you say the process is a scam if it is a refferendum? Isnt the people sovereign in a democracy?
Nothing is going to happen, Spain as a country will recours to a National referedum and will close definitly the matter…
Madrid should listen to what the results are really saying, instead of creating some pathetic excuse for the results of this public vote.
Madrid should listen to what the results are really saying, instead of creating some pathetic excuse for the results of this public vote.
ok, most of Catalans have said: WE DO NOT WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS CIRCUS. They have said NO to the independence. Now all the world is going to see the real face of Junts Pel Si and their people. They want to impose their ideas to everyone, they are fanatics that do not want to respect neither the law nor the democracy. I love Catalonia, I love my many and good friends in Catalonia, and now, finally, the society has talked: knock it off, we want to work and to create wealth without being all the time with a flag in the hand. This is the end of independence, but now they are going to start a new circus.
Pues no ha pasado na,pero na de na :)
Radical Left and Radical Fascist Right both togheter (junts per si) for independence 39% vote support at regional election. It doesnt matter they say independemce. Can be something so undemocratic? Or they get mad? Mesianic mision?
Catalonia does not want to leave from Spain.
Those parties have won (48%), but the majority of the people said NO (52%).
Not really, about 12% of your Nays were in fact in favour of a referéndum and do not want to be accounted.
You don’t understand nothing Victor Caballero, as you say the society has talked and the Catalan parlament will have “MAJORIA ABSOLUTA” pro-independence.
It is democracy.
See, read: Only pro independence voters can confused mayorities at parlament with democracy. 39% support. Congratulation for the results and govern your nice region with a huge autonomy as no lander por another region in Europe.
Cataluña es tierra española y siempre lo sera
Separatist Junts per si (before two regional parties) has 62 seats at parlament after election. Before both together as different parties: 72 seats. Good results, politicians think they always win, it doesnt matters the results.
Everyone is going to see now the real face of this people. Most of Catalans do not want to play their game. 52% have said NO. But pro independence says that it does not matter, there is only one way: their one.
Nos independence!
FC Barcelona leaves the spanish league. The rest is irrelevant to Europeans.
Most of Catalans do not want the independence. In fact, Junts Pel si (a blend of radicals in both wings, left and right) has lost support regarding last elections. 47% yes and 51% no, but they want to impose their ideas to everyone. Catalans and Spanish people in general have a problem with this gang.
This is simply untrue. No has had 39%, so they have no right to impose dependence from Spain on the rest. For now we have 48% Yes, 39% No, and the rest (about 12%) have expressly said that they do not want to be counted as No (neither as Yes). In a real referendum the result would have been quite clear – and will probably be quite clear when there is one.
Catalan independents are +- 2 milion and not independents 4 milion…but 2 out of the last, want a different relationship with the rest of Spain. On the whole, Europe should understand that Catalonian society is composed of 3 milions of “visigots”, 3 milion of “gots” and 1,5 milion of inmigrants.
I hope they succeed, a majority of seats for the pro independence side as well as last year’s referendum. This confirms what I experienced when in Barcelona earlier this year.People are for it. Seems some were swayed by Francoist scaremongering about pensions but despite that still a majority.
I look forwatd to the independent republic Catalunya.
Rajoy and the corrupt PP will be out at the end of the year anyway.
Considerar a lis soberanistas parte del NO es hacerse trampas al solitario
Catalonia had no shared institutions or currency or laws with other territories… If thst is not to be independent we can have the same status now , please ?
Querer la independencia en Cataluña por motivos históricos es una pantomima de la derecha catalana manipulando a las masas….y querer la independencia por que “España nos roba” es una falacia que no tiene cabida en la UE, ya que también en la Europa de los derechos y libertades también los estados más ricos pagan más que los pobres…..que les expliquen a estos borregos como funciona la propia UE, alemania y su estado federa o U.K….ya esta bien de hacer el payaso. Nunca existió ni existira Cataluña como naciòn y la UE nunca lo permitiria….si estos analfabetos históricos y económicos logran ser un dia mayoria llevarán a Cataluña a la ruina económica y nadie quiere eso para esa mayoria de catalanes que no quieren salir de España.
They did vote. Now we need a new question.
React to what? Isn’t it a democracy?
BReaking news, they’ve already won!
New Future Cataluña: presidents will be out of law as theses kings of medieval times. President Arturo Mas under criminal investigation: two years spending public budget without control.
tu flipas Jesús!
Paulo vete a tomar por culo
Pues no pasa nada, que no ganaron, seguimos igual y ya cansa…hasta los huevos
independentist parties won the election. only 39% of the votes go to parties that say clearly no to the indepence. EU must respect the decison od the catalan citizens
UNA ALTRE MANERA DE VEURE ELS RESULTATS QUE COMPARTEIXO I QUE EM SEMBLA LA MÉS CORRECTA QUE HE LLEGIT:
Jordi Griera
Tothom equivocat: Amb el 100% escrutat i segons la web del Parlament, els vots reals vàlids han estat 4.077.934. Els percentatges d’un plebiscit, s’han de calcular respecte dels vots vàlids, no es poden comptar els nuls i els blancs a favor del NO, com està fent tothom, ni tampoc els vots dels que no votaven en funció del plebiscit sinó d’altres raons: indignats, demòcrates, animalistes, pirates, etc. Aquests darrers cal estimar cap a on anirien en cas d’un plebiscit i la millor estimació crec que és el repartiment que la pròpia votació ha donat per a la resta de la ciutadania. Resulta això, que confio que s’entengui:
JxSí 1620973 39,75%
C’s 734910 18,02%
PSC 522209 12,81%
CSíqueesPot 366494 8,99%
PP 348444 8,54%
CUP 336375 8,25%
unio.cat 102870 2,52%
PACMA 29785 0,73%
RECORTES CERO-ELS VERDS 14390 0,35%
GANEMOS 1158 0,03%
PIRATA etc. 326 0,01%
TOTAL VOTS OK 4.077.934 (referència per als % de vot)
SI JxSí+CUP 48,00% (no el que s’està escrivint arreu)
NO C’s+PSC+PP 39,37%
EN CAS DE PLEBISCIT REAL els vots dels altres partits, un 12,63%, es repartiran entre els del SI i el NO actuals en la mateixa proporció que el 48%/39,37%: 6,94%/5,69%
Resultaria:
SI JxSí+CUP 48,00% + 6,94% = 54,94%
NO C’s+PSC+PP 39,37% + 5,69% = 45,06%
La meva conclusió és que un referèndum de veritat avui el guanyaria la independència per 55/45%.
Molt bé Pere!,Un gran resum.
Si hi afegim els vots del catalans a l’extranger que l’estat espanyol no els va deixar votar (aprox 150.000) amb un percentatge del 65% SI, 35% No, la cosa encara queda més clara.
https://www.facebook.com/z975rocks/videos/10153025528125308/
Los verdaderos interesados son la clase burguesa que quieren tratar al resto como esclavos y no se enteran por eso an legalizado según Pilar Raola a más de medio millón de marroquíes para su fin
They count soberanists that are not defined asNOs…. Big mistake in case of a real referendum
Spanish government should listen to what the results are really saying and open dialogue about catalan affair.
Catalán Affair? Rule of law. Justice. Who won election must form new local government. The rest is politics to ask for more budget.
Si haciendo tantas cuentas no sale porque hay trampa en las votaciones y en los porcentajes porque no poneis el diputado a 10.000 votos en vez de aprovechar el sistema de votación español que en Barcelona cuesta 30 y en leída 10. .o en girona 14 ??? Donde se ve la realidad del proceso ….A y según algunos observadores que estuvieron el 9 N había 2paquetes uno si. Y uno del no en distintas mesas seamos serios y no engañemos al personal
Yo estuve y eso no paso
¿Cuales son tus fuentes? (si tienes)
OK, Kick Catalans out of the EU and the debt of the Spanish Kingdom will be paid by no one…
Ops… Sorry, Wait a minute… The King of Spain will do
:-D
If Catalans vote yes then Catalunya becomes independente, the world becomes richer and more diverse and spain gets what it deserves…
Visca Catalunya Lliure, Nou Estat D’Europa…
Lol. Keep dreaming
not really. until both sides agree on a means to establish the will of the people, there wouldn’t be peace, nor could the international community recognize the new state
Not really, look at Taiwan, Kosovo, etc.
How many times you need the European Union say you are wrong..? How many?
Guillem Martí Bou , European Union? What the hell is that? LOL
Why are you all so dumbfounded when this happens. Numerous times have regions voted for independence. From those many have voted in favour and created their own countries which you now celebrate as beautiful and unique. Just chill a bit and enjoy the democracy at work.
Its difficult to enjoy democracy when Madrid and Brussels have outlawed it.
http://www.cityam.com/271679/juncker-wont-tell-you-real-state-eu-
Democracy doesn’t work though
The Spanish government will never allow it if they manage to be independent other regions will follow the Basque country, Galicia, Grenada and so on so Spain would cease to exist, if it comes to that I honestly believe that the Spanish government will use force in an extreme situation…my view in this situation is Shaping changing its Constitution form a Federation and that would allow independent regions their is no other legal way the rest will result into conflict…
If Spain uses brute force so should NATO invade Spain to “bring democracy”…
Ja, ja Jose
NATO has never protected democracy, you have more options that they invade Cataluña to protect status quo.
Stop living in wonderland!
Alfredo, do you really think countries like Portugal, the UK or France wouldn’t love to see Spain crumble? You’re the one that needs to stop dreaming if you think NATO would protect any status quo in Spain..lol…
How I’ll enjoy the 1st of October when all your falacies & fantasies get crushed against the wall of the reality 😌✌🏻
The Spanish government will never allow it if they manage to be independent other regions will follow the Basque country, Galicia, Grenada and so on so Spain would cease to exist, if it comes to that I honestly believe that the Spanish government will use force in an extreme situation…my view in this situation is changing the Spanish Constitution and form a Federation that would allow independent regions their is no other legal way the rest will result into conflict…
Remeber the Yugo wars? Well, that´s what you will have if that hapens in the worst scenario. But probably the referendum won´t hapen, but if it hapen, the constitucional court won´t accept the results because it´s illegal under the Spanish constitution, that it can eventuallly activate the 155 article and suspend the autonomy in Catalonia.
The law passed in Catalunya was made exactly to rule out the possibility of using the spanish constitution to stop the referendum. Basically the Generalitat suspended the spanish constitutional court in Catalunya. Without the legal system behind, Spain can now either accept the referendum, enprison everyone organizing it (which would make them political prisoners), or simply send an army which, to the international community, would sound rather imperialistic and would probably mean Spain would become internationally isolated.
a law cannot overrule the constitution. that’s what makes it a constitution :)
That is only valid if you intend to be under said constitution, which is not the case. My country’s constitution used to say Angola was an “Overseas Province”. I guess our constitution was not much of a barrier, was it? Fact remains, Catalunya’s Generalitat already outlawed the constitutional court and gave catalans, and only catalans, the power to decide.
José Bessa da Silva you make a lot of common sense m’dear ! (y)
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Visca Catalunya lliure!
Well if the majority wins, and they vote for independence, then the EU must respect that. Um, I believe this is called “democracy” or some crazy thing no ? ;)
Democracy is not just voting. Democracy is also following the rules and abiding the Consitution. If they want to vote, the Constitution shall be amended before. Is there a majority for that?
Maria Ruiz Nazi Germany * Fascist Italy & Spain had rules that people were forced to abide by so where they democratic ?
Constitutions may or may not be democratic. The spanish constitution is clearly not democratic and therefore the democratic thing to do is exactly to ignore it.
Maria Ruiz well we saw the rules that Nazi Germany imposed on its population therefore….rules be damned! ;) Democracy SHOULD be respected EVER time !
*EVERY
José Bessa da Silva I clicked “like” as even though I do not pretend to be any expert on the Spanish constitution – nor any other for that matter – what you said is simply common sense, imo.
What about rule of law and legality
Rure of law and legality in relation to which law?
How about, what do we think about the European independence from American system?!!! Who cares about America?! Do America care about anybody else?!!
Who cares about the EU ?
Nobody ether, that’s why US rules… Putin for president…
Nothing. This is not the first vote you know…
Nothing
The muslim invasion is too dangerous and Spain is closing the eyes to that evidence… is good they leave such a country and protect themselves against the f… caliphate and the Thousands that will be slaughtered by that worms…
Like almost eu countries are too, because they receive from who controls the terrorists (migrants)
Catalonia will be independent then.
It is also against of international law and the will of the majority of catalans and, so, if something happens cannot be named “referendum”. The article is insane and biased, in any case. Is the League where FC Barceloa will play really the issue here? AHow is it that blog called “Debating Europe” does not consider relevant mentioning, for instance, that in case of independence, Catalonia will be out of the EU?
could u elaborate on the will of the majority of catalans? some statistics some scientific data to sustain that u know which is this will?
Wiktoria Anilom Indeed, the result of last elections that were presented by pro-independence parties as a plebiscite to approve the roadmap for independence.
The main left and right pro-independence parties joined in a single party “Together4Yes” (sorry for the approximate translation). Their program is, basically, the roadmap for independence as they have nothing else in common. The only clearly pro-independence who did not join this candidature was the extreme left (CUP).
This party, plus the pro-independence extreme left (CUP) (i.e. the two parties that voted in favor of the referendum law at the Catalan Parliament, declared now illegal by the Constitutional Court) obtained 1 966 508 votes at the elections/plebiscite. The rest of the parties at this Parliament, who opposed the Referendum law, obtained 1 976 453.
Nothing they vote in the past and they will vote again in two there years time. They love this kind of events but at the ens nothing happen.
Said the anti-brexit movement a few years ago…
Madrid will put troops on the streets with the approval of Brussels to keep the people in line, a job for the new EU army in the future.
I do fear that unfortunatly…
troops from were…cause the Spanish army doesn t have many people…half of them are still in the middle east…
Wiktoria Anilom They will find them.
EU is peace, they said…
ma perchè la Catalogna vuole staccarsi dalla Spagna ?
Because Spain is not a democratic state, because it acts like an imperial power in Catalunya, imposing a foreign language and extracting all profits, etc, etc, etc…
You can repeat that Spain is not democratic but that won’t transforme it in reality. Little Goebbels…
Guillem Martí Bou , you can deny spain is an undemocratic state but it was a fascist that wrote your current dictatorship you little fact-twister ;)
mi sarebbe piaciuto che mi spiegasse uno spagnolo cosa succede laggiù. Anche se non lo sò credo di intuire di che “male soffre” e allora partiamo da qui….dal ” poliziotto del mondo” ” dall’esportatore di democrazia “. Sentite cosa dice Noam Chomsky https://youtu.be/xgPSe0Ykdzs
False. A democratic parliament elected in 1977 did it.
Don’t lie commie…
se conosci Altiero Spinelli,capirai un po dalla Europa. Non abbiamo stato mai spagnoli, noi siamo catalani da sempre. E vogliamo decidere cosa fare nel nostro territorio senza loro che vi dicono fine dove possiamo essere liberi.
Right, the “trasition”…very democratic…
José Bessa da Silva ?
Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia got independence from Soviet Union few months before its collapse. I was born in Latvia (part of USSR).
People in Latvia wanted to be independent because we did not want to lose national identity and we wanted to achieve better life.
Yes, we are less and less using Russian language,
we are got better life now than we had in 1991. but we had many crisis between 1991 and today. Many people left Latvia and moved to rich Western Europe, but this is next step. this is not about independence.
Catalonia could get independence few months before collapsing and splitting Spain into many small countries.
Maybe UK took your rule in UE to get independance… It’s strange you get out from an union to join another, didn’t you learn nothing about your past? UE will collapse like USSR did, so simply. Tou don’t unite peoples with a flag, a common currency and laws they didn’t vote for!
Thank you for comment.
I was too young to decide Leave USSR in 1990 and I was sceptical to join EU in 2003 when we had referendums.
Outside EU we wouldn’t be like Norway and Switzerland we would be like Belarus and Ukraine.
That’s your problem, you’re old enough to find your way, but because the EU I’m living from a policy and laws we didn’t vote for and my country disespaers from the international voices! Why sould I share my destiny with my neighbors? Nothing to win! We’ve got a history over 1500 years old, we learned about it! EU’ll collapse like USSR did as soon as a country left it, you said it, the form it’ll have nobody knows.
Free Cathalonia!
Nothing. Next day they wake up with Spanish & French people as neighbours, just like the day before.
Not much. The referendum will be haphazard and plagued by abstention. The abstention will be difficult to interpret and the results thus very likely ambiguous. Far more relevant are the results of the Catalonian elections – that is where you can truly gauge the level of support for independence.
If Catalonia become independent, the first thing that will happen is that they will be out of EU and out of the Euro zone. They need to start print money for them selfs. All the Catalonian working in the EU will be considered as foreigners and Spain must create a border. Will Catalonia be under Schengen? All these things must be cleared for the votes.
That’s as fake as Kosovo could not get the Euro as a currency, because they did. We are not affraid of getting out of the EU, the wealthiest States in the Western Europe are out out the EU: Norway, Switzerland, Iceland…
Are they? Remove the oil from Norway and the bank protection from switzerland and tell me if they are wealthy …
Hugo…borders in France and with Spain…so if Spanish wants to go to Europe…I guess they will have to cross the border…through Catalonia right? or we could close the border and don t ler u pass or force u to pay tolls..ahhh so many political fiction without clear argumentation
No. The Spain still have the western border that is not Catalonia.
I tell you what happens if Catalonia votes for independence. The only thing that will happen is that Catalonia will vote for independence. I understand it was so hard for some journalists to understand this simple principle that they thought it was worth to write an entire article about it, but still. Semantics is important. That’s exactly what will happen. Peace…
What happens, Gomes independent
In Portugal we have the same problem, we must right against the central Power, the Northwest Will have independence, we must go to referendum to.
Go for it. Our constitution allows that right. Make the referendum. Fortunatly we are a real democracy in Portugal. One that the EU is trying to destroy, but still, a democracy…
PS: what exactly is “Northwest” Portugal? Is it just Viana do Castelo distric? Is it the Minho province? Perhaps Minho, Douro Litoral and Beira Litoral provinces together? I’m sorry about my ignorance…
noroeste independente lol ya….
north
José Lambrux Gonçalves , nice, than I will have two nationalities! ;)
Why we are talking about if they become independent. They can’t become if the central government doesn’t change the constitution. As the article says international law is more important than a constitution, yes, only when you are characterized as a liberation movement by the UN. This process ended in the 70s with the independence of most African states. Today International Law is clear, if you live under a democratic system that allows you to have your own voice then you cannot be a liberation movement since the very argument of repression doesn’t exist.
Spain is not a democracy. Just wait until they send the army to see how “democratic” spain is…
Why it isnt democratic?
To start with it does not recognise the fact that sovereignty lies with the people and not in a parliament or with it’s ruling elite. Secondly Spain never had a total disconection with the fascist dictatorship of Franco, instead they made the famously know “Transition”. The current constitution in Spain was made by the old fascist dictatorship government members. Also, although Spain claims to protect linguistic diversity, through its central goverment, it actively tries to extinguish different languages and cultures within it’s territory, while imposing castilian as the sole language. Finally, a country that does not recognise the right of self determination is rather imperialistic…
Ok firstly. Soveireighty does not lie with the people. Only the Parliament what i state in my comment is international law which can be found if you write self determination in google , i wont bore you with actual legal documents. No one as long as participates in democracy is considered to be living in equality and freedom of expression and self determination. Thats why catalanians DO NOT have the right to brake of , or the Kurds and thats why Kossovites did have the right since they werent allowed to participate in serbian politics. SinceCatalonia has parliament and its people vote the discussion ends there. As far as the constitution goes , many states chose to keep their constitutions even after troubled times or recognize actions of dictatorships like greece did. The right of the state sovereignty is to decide of things like what language shall be official etc etc.
Nikos Voudouris , in my country our constitution clearly states that sovereingty lies with the people, so, you clearly are wrong – “Article 3 (Sovereignty and legality) 1. Sovereignty is single and indivisible and lies with the people, who exercise it in the forms provided for in the Constitution.” – Secondly catalans are not allowed to vote, that is the issue here, if they were, there would be a referendum approved by Madrid, which is not the case. Finally, none of what you mention makes a country a democracy. You need to revise your idea of what is an actual democracy. I can clearly see you are trying to excuse Spain because your country acts exactly the same way, but that is your problem.
Have you even read the constitution? its one of the first sections. The people of Spain , not the people of Catalonia, all spain , the power relies to the people of Spain. Section 2 forbids such acts of unilateral independce of sorts.
By the way, my constitution states that my country is oblidged to run it’s foreign relations by respecting the right of self-determination, independence and insurrection to every people – “Article 7 (International relations) 3. …recognises peoples’ rights to self-determination and independence and to development, as well as the right of insurrection against all forms of oppression.” – Catalunya’s process is therefore LEGAL under my constitution and therefore LEGAL by international standards…
Nikos Voudouris , again, Spain is not a democracy. It’s constitution is irrelevant!
Exactly, its foreign relations , you are not a foreign relation, your country spain , catalonia is part of spain , spain must respect the rights of other people to self determination.
Nikos Voudouris ,nop, I am a “foreign relation” lad, after all I’m portuguese. That constitution is the portuguese constitution. It is actually funny that you think Spain would ever allow such right in it’s constitution.Spain is a dictatorship lad, and Portugal is oblidged to recognize Catalunya. That in turn makes the catalan process internationally LEGAL…
Well as an international law student in panteion university , knowing that this is fake, because i search my stuff and i have read most constitutions of europe with exceptions of latvia and some others, ofcourse article 7 is the article conserning economic unions. Calling yourself an international relations student and not undestanding how the international system works is relly bad. Law recognizes states. States make the rules. The repressed can only hope to be called liberation movement and as you knowand i said since you are an international reations student that ended in the 70s . Therefore is long gone. So you started by arguying that spain is dictatorship, then said that people have the right, you read again the constitution and realized you are wrong, then you pleaded that foreign relations are to be repsected by claiming another constitution in an attempt to no achieve anything as far as argumentation goes, and now full circle dictatorship again. As far as i am conserned Spain is a democracy where everyone has its parliament and votes giving power to the people. You really think if spain was a dictatorship that you could talk freely with me about that? you think catalonia parliament could even think of talking about independences? if spain was a dictatorship you would be in prison here since your first comment and the catalonian parliament would be full of spies and loayalist to the dictator. Since thats not the case i quess you dont have dictatorship. Now you either put your “studies” to come up with a real argument that can stand up to the legal framework of our world or not at all.
Nikos Voudouris , I never said I’m an internatinal relations student. I’ve studied Biotechnology lad. About the rest of your comment that you read most constitutions, that the 7th article is a lie, etc, it only comes to show you are indeed an ignorant speaking about what you do not know.
Spain is not a democracy because it does not abide by the most democratic principles.
The portuguese constitution’s 7th article is exactly the one I’ve posted.
Finally I think you’re still confused, I AM PORTUGUESE, I don’t live in Spain nor am I spaniard. Now, as easily as this, I will leave the link to the Portuguese Assembly, with the portuguese constitution, proving you know literally nothing about it when you claim the article 7 is about “economic unions”:
http://www.en.parlamento.pt/Legislation/CRP/Constitution7th.pdf
José Bessa da Silva ,nop, I am a foreign relation lad thats what you said , when you are in foreign relations your syllabus always has international relations. Since you retract that statement too its ok. Look i dont like loosing my time. I gave you too many chances to come up with a valid argument no matter what you are. When you have an argument one person gets the one side and the other the other side, its called civil conversation. even if you are not spanish you chose to defend a specific argumentation as i chose to defend mine. I nver said you were spanish to begin with i merely corelated yourself with the side you argument in favor of. Now because we dont live in a world of ignorance and darkness, but in the light of the fast information you can either choose to make a serious argument about catalonia or do not talk at all.
Really? That is meant to your “Exactly, it’s foreign relations, you are not a foreign relation, your country spain,…”
Again, I made a valid argument, you on the other hand, tried to say it was a lie based on…well…quoting “…I have red most constitutions of europe…”. Once presented with the constitution in question, proving the one lying was you, you simply decided to change your argument to a personal basis.
Sumarizing:
1- Spain’s constitution is a continuation of it’s fascist regime and does not recognize neither sovereignty to it’s people nor the right to self-determination, making it a rather undemocratic state and therefore opressive towards Catalunya’s population and aspirations.
2- The stance that Catalunya’s independence is illegal to the international community is untrue as Portugal, a foreign country and therefore part of the foreign community, is oblidged, by it’s own constitution, to eventually recognize Catalunya’s independence.
1. no comment 2. only if it is from legal means…. which means the constitution has to change .Somenthing almost impossible
Again, I guess you haven’t noticed that we’re are talking about the portuguese constitution. The legality of the catalan process under the spanish constitution is irrelevant, Portugal will be forced to recognize Catalunya if it becomes independent. In this sence, Catalunya is in the exact same position as Kosovo, that Portugal had to recognize as independent as well.
IF kossovo was recognized by the Security council and was valided by the ICJ decision of 2010 before states recognized it. If the becomes IF that it cant if the constitution dosent change
Again, you need to read the portuguese constitution. The is no if…
There are too nanny ifs that’s why the whole argument is no existant. The whole world must recognize a people that is struggling against oppression , no one is arguing with that , is just that Catalonia does not qualify as one. The international law principles of good neighborliness and uti possidetis have been prevailing for aeons on end. Portugal must recognize legally created liberation movements Ipso facto
The whole world? Tell that to Kosovo, Taiwan, etc, etc…
Reality disproves you every time you write.
Portugal is oblidged by it’s own constitution to eventually recognize Catalunya’s independence.
Again, you need to read the portuguese constitution because you clearly haven’t done that even though you lied by saying you did.
Kosovo’s declaration was considered legal under ICJ case law of 2010 read it up. Taiwan did not rebel, it was a country before PRC , etc etc? who are the rest? You like to overlook the fact that i already told you that in order to anyone to accept anything it needs legal basis , catalonia does not have legal basis, what is so hard for you to undestand , spain is an indivisable entity that gives democracy to all ita self governing terriotories as it is stated in their constitution. that disquilifies anyone from declaring indepences without the concent of the central goverment. Lets assume though that you are right, lets say the whoel world works the way you think , then why hasnt portugal recognized catalonia if its oblidged to do that?
If Kosovo and Tawain are legally independent and half the world does not recognize them, then half the world couldn’t care less about your argument. That is logic lad.
Portugal did not recognize Catalunya because Catalunya didn’t declared independence. I thought this would be obvious…
Tawain is loosing recognition because PRC threatened that anyone recognizing taiwain will not have trade with china . Quess what countries hose to do ? Some states especialy regional do not recognize kossovo because their relationa wih serbia are more important . Alas politics is not for you
In other words, everyone does what they think is the best for them. In other words, exactly what I’ve been saying.
But hey, politics is not for me, you are clearly much better at that…hahaha
Go read the portuguese constitution lad…
Your frustration shows your ignorance
Nop, Im not frustrated, you are. That is why you lied about having read the portuguese constitution and that is why you’re trying to fight reality. But I know why. Every single perso here that is agains Catalunya is either a centralist spaniards or a person from countries with independentist movements, like you. But still, you need a bit o reality lad. Visca Catalunya Lliure.
International law doesn’t apply here either. Catalonia isn’t a colony or democratically oppressed, so it doesn’t automatically have the right of self-determination.
wouldn’t denying them the right to self determination if a majority votes for it be oppression? That’s kind of circular logic there.
But a majority hasn’t voted for it, that’s the rub. The only reason why there’s an independentist majority in the Catalan Parliament is because of an unfair electoral law which gives them more seats for less votes. Do you really think the Spanish government would be acting the way it is if there was a clear majority for independence? If you think so, then you’ve clearly fallen for the independentist propaganda which tries to sell the idea that Catalonia is a victim in all this. I can’t see how the region with one of the highest levels of self-government can really be a victim here. It’s precisely why they can get away with all this ridiculousness in the first place.
Justin Davids , the majority haven’t voted for it because they were denied the right to vote, which in turn makes Spain rather undemocratic and Catalan claims of oppression true!
Haha, this is the propaganda that I was talking about. You’ve fallen for it hook, line and sinker. The Spanish constitution (just like the US one, the German one, French one, among others) does not allow self-determination referendums. This very constitution was voted for by a large MAJORITY of Catalans. Does this mean a referendum of this kind is impossible? No. Because Spain, as a modern and advanced democracy, allows for the constitution to be changed if the independentists actually could be bothered to try to gain the political consensus needed to do so (they already have the leftist party Podemos on their side). But no, they are throwing their dummies out of the pram and tearing up even their own Catalan laws to push through an illegal referendum. There is no oppression occurring which would satisfy the international criteria for the right to self-determination. Does this mean to say that the Spanish political system is perfect? Of course not, I do not deny that there are legitimate grievances between the central government and the regional one, but that is completely normal and natural for such a decentralised state. And these need to be worked out legally not illegally.
Justin Davids , unfortunatly your theory about changing the constitution is a complete lie as catalans make up 16% of the population of Spain and therefore, even if 100% of them would vote to change the constitution, they wouldn’t be able to do so. They are therefore being deprived of having a word about their own future. That is opression by all means and forms and nothing short of an undemocratic state like Spain, that unlike what you claim is not, and never was, a modern and advanced democracy. The Generalitat is therefore doing the right move by bringing and abiding by a democratic process denied by a foreign power.
It’s not a lie. Of course Catalans can’t change it on their own, which is why I mentioned ‘political consensus’. This means they have to persuade and convince a majority of Spanish political parties of their right to self-determination. This is the true meaning of democracy.
And the fact that you mention a “foreign power” just goes to show how much you have been brainwashed. Catalonia was never conquered. Go and read a neutral history of Catalonia, not one manipulated by the independentists. Spain does not exist without Catalonia, it is a major component of what makes Spain Spain.
Justin Davids , right, let us ask for “political consensus” between those that claim the right to self-determination and those that don’t want to give them such. It is a rather logic move to do…”consensus”. You want catalans, to convince people in Andalucia, Madrid, Murcia, etc, that they should change the spanish constitution in order to allow catalans to become independent? Those same catalans that pay for most of the cental government budget from which andalusians, madridists, murcians, etc, live of? Good God, you must be bloody joking if you think that makes any sence or if that bares any “democratic” value.
What are you talking about? Podemos is already convinced that they should have a referendum and it’s a Spain-wide party. Also, Catalans ALREADY use their own language. The Spanish constitution even protects their language ffs. Seriously, your arguments are not based on facts. Pleease, do some proper research and stop believing everything an independentist tells you.
Justin Davids , you must be bloody joking. Podemos? Relly? They were the 3rd most voted party and they would never be able to form a government EXACTLY because they are in favour of allowing a referendum in Catalunya. Pablo Iglesia’s and Pedro Sanchéz talks to overtake Mariano Rajoy went down because PSOE refused to discuss that possibility with Podemos. Stop twisting facts lad. Do not tell me to do “research” because I know perfectly well what I’m speaking of. PS: catalans are not free to say which language they use in several institutions, why? Madrid does not allow them! That is the reality lad!
Don’t call me lad, nen. I was using Podemos as an example of the independentists building political consensus to achieve their wholly LEGITIMATE aim, which is what happens in a real DEMOCRACY. And seriously, what you are saying about the Catalan language is bullshit. Which language is the only working language for all state schools in Catalonia? CATALAN. So don’t tell me bullshit about the Catalan language being descriminated against.
Justin Davids enjoyed your documented arguments; however, they’re biased and not realistic. you even mention catalonians are brainwashed and changed history. why are you so convinced? have you ever lived in catalonia? why you claim one part to be right and the other just propaganda? maybe it’s the other way round… cheers!
I didn’t say Catalans (the more common term in English) were brainwashed, I said José was. I’m pretty sure the Catalan independentists are fully aware of their lies and manipulations because all they want is to break up Spain and they don’t care how they do it. I oi que sí he viscut a Catalunya, per això parlo molt bé el català.
The only brainwashed person here is you. Your centralist propaganda and your denial of Madrids crimes is sinthomatic of that.
Again, with brainwashing comes sweeping assumptions. I’m not a centralist. I believe in federalism actually. And Madrid’s crimes? Vinga, home. You are an extremist, seriously.
“We should bomb Barcelona every 50 years for the sake of Spain”… Yep, no harm againts catalans was ever done indeed…Read lad, read…
Nen, stop living in the past. This is why you are being extreme. Ever since the transition to democracy “Madrid” had not committed any crimes against Catalonia. Stop falling for the victimisation rhetoric.
Right, that past that was just in your parents life. Very far away indeed, no relations to this days. Since we are trying to leave the past in the past, why doesn’t Madrid shut the hell up once and for all about Gibraltar? Oh, right,m Madrid was a victim of the evil brits…You spaniards are mental!
Right, that past that was just in your parents life. Very far away indeed, no relations to this days. Since we are trying to leave the past in the past, why doesn’t Madrid shut the hell up once and for all about Gibraltar? Oh, right, Madrid was a victim of the evil brits…You spaniards are mental!
José, look at my name, I’m British ffs. I agree, Spain can shut up about Gibraltar. You know why? Because an overwhelming majority of Gibraltareños want to stay British. But Catalan seccesionists can also shut up about independence, because the majority of Catalans want to stay Spanish.
That is a lie, the majority of the catalans do not want to stay, they want to leave. Nontheless, the only thing they are asking for is a referendum. Why is Madrid so afraid? Oh, right, because they know independence will win. Try again lad, 9N had 80% leave!
Lmao 😂… This is why I’m saying you are brainwashed. 80% of 20% (the actual amount of the Catalan population which voted), so in reality only like 18% voted for independence in that other illegal consultation which happened on 9N. And “Madrid” isn’t afraid necessarily, rather they have the constitution on their side. Even if Rajoy wanted to allow it, he couldn’t without there being constitutional reform. Please, do so proper research instead of just spouting independentist propaganda.
At the end of the day, no one can recognize Catalonia’s independence and that will be the end of that, along with some negotiation for increased autonomy.
Spain will invade the region and make it Spain again? :D
What if Hungary passes a law on killing refugees? If voted by the Parliament, aka the elected members of the constituency, and respecting democracy, it should be valid? Same twisted argument than what this think tanks question is presenting
dude, that’s an extremely poor argument, democracy could not be used to vote against human or civil rights. A government doesn’t have right to kill, so, that cannot be voted.
You must read a little bit more, due to you speak Spanish, I will pass to you an article that explains everything, it doesn’t matter if you are left or right wing, read the article.
http://www.huffingtonpost.es/2017/09/09/varoufakis-madrid-quiere-aplastar-a-cataluna-para-darles-una-leccion_a_23202766/
Catalans vote (active and passive) in regional, local, European, and national elections. What human, civil, or civil right is violated? There is no right to succession or independence. If they want something, there is a formula: to rewrite the Spanish Constitution and have all decide on the then no-longer common future.
Antonio Brugarolas , wrong, there is the right to independence and even riot. Just not in Spain because it is not a democracy. You should read a bit more lad!
Anarchist right or what? How much you know about law… I mean, real law, not the one emanating from your “eggs”?
“Article 7 (International relations)
…
3. Portugal recognises people’s rights to self-determination and independence and to development, as well as the right of insurrection against all forms of oppression.”
This is part of my constitution. Now, would you care to reconsider your third-worldish aproach to my previous statement or shall I keep posting other constitutions and laws from other countries proving the problem is indeed with Spain’s lack of democratic values?
How is Catalonia oppressed? Can you please tell me? Can you tell me why then Portugal does not accept the Crimean referendum and its outcome to become part of the Russian Federation and leave Ukraine? Please, tell me. What Portugal defends is the right of oppressed colonial countries, included in the list of non-independent colonial territories of the UN. Catalonia is not and had never been there.
What Portugal defends is “…people’s rights to self-determination and independence…as well as the right of insurrection against all forms of oppression.”
Now, reminded that:
1- The Crimean case was neither a case of independence nor was it democratic, transparent or organized by the people of Crimea. Not to mention it is the direct result of a foreing military invasion of an internationally recognized sovereign state. It was most definatly not not an “insurrection”.
2- Nowhere in the portuguese constitution is it written that article 7.3. is in anyway linked with any UN list. In other words, that article is meant to every people that aims for it’s independence.
3- Catalonya is oppressed because Spain took it’s right to decide over it’s own future.
3- Catalunya’s case is the same as Kosovo’s, which Portugal already recognises as an independenn’t country (unlike Spain that sided with Serbia and all other undemocratic states like China, Russia, etc)…
Now let’s see: 1) Why Crimea was not democratic, as people could vote? In the same manner as Catalonia, in Crimea there was no waiting time between the decision to call voters and the election, there was no electoral register, no independent electoral college, no right to call for the referendum or legal case for it, a divided society. Democratic is not all, and current Western democracies need much more than a ballot box and a ballot paper. 2) Portugal can´t act agaist the UN or International law: it’s accepted in its own Constitution, and it´s a basic erga omnes part of international law. The fact that Potugal wanted to forget its colonial past and emphasize the right of self-determination can’t go against the decisions of the UN (http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/ga_resolutions.shtml) 3) Is Baviera, or Baden Wüttemberg oppressed? By German and international law, none of them can call a referendum for their citizens to decide on their future… and those countries had a King and independent army still in 1918, less than a 100 years ago! Can you decide on your Constitution? The same way can the Catalans… There is a think called Reform of the Constitution, and, in Spain, everything can be changed. 4) Catalonia same case as Kosovo? Are you sure? There has not been an armed struggle in Catalonia, no human trafficking. It is a rather more viable country, and there is no ethnic or religious difference. The peace fire in Kosovo, signed between Serbia, the Kosovo rebels and the Internationa Commuity enshrined the territorial integrity of the country… Why can’t Mitrovica vote if they want to continue in Kosovo or return to Serbia? Why can´t Bosnia be partitioned if the local entities decide so? Why can’t ethnic Russians living in the Baltics decide if they want their land and towns be part of Russia when they do live in oppressed conditions (second class citizens deprived of many rights) BECAUSE THERE IS NOT SUCH RIGHT
1- Again, Crimea is not an independence case and that alone makes it unparalled with Catalunya. Also again, Crimea was object of an invasion by a foreign power, Catalunya was not.
2-Portugal’s constitution stands above ANY internatinal laws. The UN has no power over our Magna Carta.
3- Are bavarians asking to be independent? No, they are not. Case closed.
4- To claim that there was no armed conflict in Catalunya is the most dishonest attempet ever. Catalunya’s National Day, marks exactly the end of a siege agains Barcelona due to an independentist uprising, that by the way, was backed by Portugal. Just as late as the Spanish Civil war, Catalunya created it’s own republic and was bombed for that. Baldomero Espartero, a general from Spain bombed Barcelona due to a strike followed by an independentist uprise in the XIX century, his famous words were “We should bomb Barcelona every 50 years for the sake of Spain”.
To say catalans are not a different ethnic group is also a big fat lie. They compose one of the oldest ethnicities in the peninsula, with their own culture and their own language.
5- The right to self-determination exists like I’ve proved you with my own constitution. The fact that hispanics and other underdeveloped cultures deny that right doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. The world used to deny the right of “equal rights among races”, should we keep denying it?
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
PERFECT !!!!!!! And I wish them best of luck.
That would be perfect because it would start dismantling the idea of ‘countries’ (for lack of better word) for something that is more regional, and therefore more in tune both with the natural geography and the people living in it, giving perhaps a better chance to both environmental and social sustaunability. This does not however remove the need for supra-regional entities: the EU would still serve as a coordinator to essential environmental, social and economic regulations. All in all, it can be a good thing, removing a level of (the current national) governance which has too often been an impediment to progress on key topics recently (emissions, emigration etc).
The EU? The imperialistic institution that will side with Spain? Right! You have a pickle to solve in your theory!
Perhaps. But whether its Catalonia or Scotland or even Flanders, the EU has little to loose in being ready to ‘adopt’ regions, quite the contrary. It’s bound to happen at some point.
Not really, what is bound to happen is the end of the EU. You see, you speak about states but you forget the nation is the most basic political and cultural entity. Nations, like Catalunya, are resilient and may even endure centuries of opression under a state without loosing it’s sense of identity. Nations that achieved their own state, called “nation-states”, like Portugal, are politically stable, culturally uniform and therefore warry of giving away that security and stability to a federalist project like the EU. The EU knows it and that is why it is not willing to open Pandora’s box by recognizing a nation’s right to be independent. The EU simply can’t accept Catalunya because the ultimate objective of the EU is exactly to be a state ruling over several independentist nations, just like Spain is today a state, ruling several independentist nations, of which one is Catalunya.
Why would that happen? It would just become more complicated with all these tiny countries… what’s next, republique Basque? How does separation bring more unity?
Yes, why not, a république basque? I don’t know much about Portugal, but I’m sure it has strong regions too – or even The Netherlands for that matter Martijn. The main point being: countries as we know them are outdated for the problems at hand, where what is needed is more local empowerment (to address environmental resilience based on local context and sensitivities, particularly with preserving biodiversity and ecosystems) *and* global coordination (to address long-term systemic sustainability). The purpose here is to merge and benefit from the synergy of the nation project with the green imperative. Unity would be provided by the EU, and ideally, the UN really, so that coordination can take place on a global scale. Complicated? I think it is precisely the many levels of governance that make actions complicated. As a Dutch you should appreciate flat management structures: yes this may mean 300 small states in the EU and not 28 (or 27 or whatever it is now), but so what?
Yannick Cornet don’t see it working. Don’t feel the need to give in to all this small nationalistic feelings either. Look at Belgium, prime example that too many tiny regions wanting their own thing leads to unmanageable situations… utopian thinking imho…
Well indeed you don’t know Portugal. Portugal does not have regions to start with. Countries as you know them were forced, nations and nation states arethe basic political and cultural organization. The EU and the UN have no means to supervise anything either.
Ok so to be clear, what I then suggest is to define a state not by its cultural or linguistic characteristics, but primarily by its biological characteristics. Both may or may not overlap, but I doubt Portugal in this sense consists of only one region, although Catalonia might.
Biological characteristics? What? You’re Hitlerly insane. Portugal has one people, one language, an unitary state that overlap with the nation. Nothing else to be said.
“Strong regions”, “biological characteristics”, “pinguin kingdoms”…
Poor guy, you didn’t learn nothing from history… For 400 years, Europe was united and called Holly Saint Empire and as it couldn’t be divided it collapsed, a nice war of 30 years!
The independance is sponsored for a few hot-heads but it’s only a 35% of the catalans. The EU should be the first to tell them that’s not faisable because it’s against the Spanish Constitucion and Spanish Laws.
Where exactly do you get tgat number? Sources please…
Where exactly do you get that number? Sources please…
José Bessa da Silva because they already celebrated another “referendum” and got that result.
José Bessa da Silva you should read a bit more.
Magaly, that is a bloody lie. The result of 9N was 80% in favour of independence. No need to lie lady, I was living in Girona…
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29982960
Enric, again, sources. I knoe you don’t have it because that number is fake. Even this own page proves you’re lying.
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/11/10/catalan-independence-referendum/
For independance….48,5 % (acording eleccion results). 80% say they would like a referendum acorded with the Spanish governament (not allowed by the Constitution). On the 9N voting the majority of catalan people din’t go so only a few wellmeaning and all the independents. Catalonia 7 milions inhabitants….independents less then a milion.
Fake number lad…
Why don’t you think ins6tead of repeating yourself.
EUROPE will be a patchwork.
Europe is peace, they said…
They leave the EU.
Carry’s on like this & there will be no one left in the pointless EU. :)
Ivan Burrows And the leaver’s economy will go south, just like the Uk’s!! The only country currently in the EU with a deflating economy! That’s how pointless we are 🤣
Can you speak about the unemployment rate and the increase in eurozone? The smalests on the world, the 5th econnomy doesn’t certainly need you!
WAR. EMBARGO. SANCTION. BLOOD. thats what happen.
Europe is peace, they said…
media is making propaganda anti-spain. its ilegal to have referedum, would be start of heavy clash.
sinc 1945 europe is under occupation of evil-allies. no peace sinc.
EU’ll collapse when UK’ll leave! Like USSR collaed when Lituania left,it’s just became an empire who can’t no more grow!
“EU” will not colapse. the USA army continue the occupation. we as europeans have duty to kick the hell out of europe the USA army the enemy numero 1 of all europeans.
“EU” is tool of the occupiers. after we kick the USA occupation, the “EU” ends automaticly. the dictator of bruxells are puppets of the evil occupiers that push for their agenda.
just like soros pushing this anti-spain campain.
It will never happens.
We are not violent, we are not nationalist, we want to be a state because today spain is against us not with us. They are not a democratic state, they don’t forgotten Franco, they are fascist with the connivence af the main goverments of europe, that’s a shame for all the free europe’s citizens.
que mundo vives? hoje em dia somos todos fascistas.
If Catalonians vote for an independent Catalonia, being Catalonia yet part of Spain and Spain part of the EU a special statute should be defined for Catalonia in order not to disrupt the freedoms and rights inherent to, present, EU citizens.
Having said this, Catalonia would need to apply to a full EU membership and to comply with all the requisites that it entailed. But since it already does so, an adherence to the EU would/should be quite easy and fast to happen except with the, expected, veto from Spain.
This would need the rest of the EU to decide about the creation of a special status for those new nations (why not the same status as Norway and Switzerland) that, being part of member states of the EU, do become independent and wish to remain in the EU (Catalonia for example with the demonstration of that same intention from Scotland) while it former nations don’t officially recognise those particular independences. Since, after those recognitions, the veto votes would cease to have any value or reason to exist!
The EU would, also, have to take into account the political impact that dealing with these new nations would imply onto itself from it’s member states (a popular anti EU sentiment would be an expected consequence if the so called independences weren’t achieved in a peaceful and democratic manner).
Thank You for Your time.
Besides the media payed by the Generalitat, nobody is interested in the auto-proclamed problems in Catalonia. The problems are caused by politicians.
I do not know the exact situation in Spain, and I do not know enough about the independence issue in order to have a strong opinion on it, BUT I’m sure the coexistence there is much better than Yugoslavia prior to division – otherwise we’d already have heared something about tensions in there … I guess. The violence in Yugoslavia did not come out of the blue, but because of prior tensions and even wars – I don’t know that much about the wounds the Spanish civil war has left, but I think and hope one still can’t compare the situation with the one between certain ethnic groups in Yugoslavia. On the other hand I see people here talking as if the main reason Catalans have to stay with Spain is to avoid violence – I hope that such arguments are false, otherwise it would mean the situation is rather sad and tensioned…
And hey, even in Yugoslavia Montenegro and Macedonia splet peacefully, and Slovenia almost peacefully!
After the spanish civil war, Spain became a fascist dictatorship until 1976 and the catalans, the basque and galicians were persecuted and forbiden to use their own languages. Thousands were killed under the dictatorship while Franco tried to ethnically clean Spain. The entire history of the formation of Spain, that culminated in the XVI century with the conquest and subjugation of the Navarra kingdom, is plagued with wars and genocide. In the XIX century, when there was an independentist uprise in Catalunya, a spanish general said “We should bomb Barcelona every 50 years for the sake of Spain”.
Thank you for this summary of Spanish history, José Bessa da Silva. I really appreciate it. Allow me to add that I will see it as written with the best intentions and with good historical knowledge, but that I will concede myself the benefit of doubt, and I Will try to read more about the topic in the future. I am sure one could also find many good things to say about Spain’s history, which would put enough weight on the positive side.
Further, no matter what, I am sure Catalans and the rest of Spain have had more than enough time to make each other like one another (in the sense that no one can’t, neither and eventually, complain about them not having spent enough time to fit together) and that, whatever the evolvings will be in the future, the eventual decision will be a mature-enough one.
Te same day after the declaration, the UK will sign a pact of military aliance with independent Catalunya. If Spain makes sth, there will be a common border between Catalunya and Gibraltar. :D
se a Catalunha se tornar independente … vai haver menos dinheiro para os monarcas.
And maybe more for EU!
I Support peacefully Progressing Saudi Green 1320 Spain
I Don’t Want To See Spain Divided
I do…
What happens is that REAL democracy wins.
Its every person’s right to self determine himself/herself. If Catalans want to become independent from Spain, its their right to do so.
If Spain, the EU, USA or whoever disagrees, I am sorry to say they are the biggest hypocrites existing. You simply cannot support self determination from WWI all the way to Kosovo, to the point that you bomb those who oppose self determination, while at the same time you deny the Catalans the right to exist in a separate state.
The EU should support the Catalans. They are Europeans and they have the right to have their own identity, whether Spain or anyone else likes it or not.
Ruined, more than nowadays is. Ruined for the whole country, transgression of laws, for the need to justify that unexplanable amount of corruption in that part of Spain. An unstoppable ascenssion of “regionalism” across the continent.
Wanna compare the amount of corruption in Spain, compared to Catalonia? Catalans don’t vote PP!
Please, try to keep informed, there are many different press sources in Spain. Unfortunately, corruption is distributed and doubt for almost every political party with gobernance nowadays. This is a process wich includes several parties agreed with the theory for “independence”. And yes, catalonians vote PP aswell, in fact parties agreed with the Spanish Constitution has obteined better results in polls – from every citizen,s single vote counted, a 51%- The situation nowadays as a result of 40 years of doctrine pro-independence.
Please, try to keep informed, there are many different press sources in Spain. Unfortunately, corruption is distributed and due to for almost every political party with gobernance nowadays. This is a process wich includes several parties agreed with the theory for “independence”. And yes, catalonians vote PP aswell, in fact parties agreed with the Spanish Constitution has obteined better results in polls – from every citizen,s single vote counted, a 51%- The situation nowadays as a result of 40 years of doctrine pro-independence.
I’m afraid your regional politics aren’t known across Europe…all we hear is Spain is in debt and Catalonia is right now in an economic boom…
Unfourtunately it is the result of 40 years of pro-independence indoctrination. Public accounts are under cero degrees nowadays in Catalonia. For itself, this region can,t afford the health cost, dependent from the regional goverment.
Unfourtunately it is the result of 40 years of pro-independence indoctrination. Public accounts are under cero degrees nowadays in Catalonia. For itself, this region can,t afford the health cost, from the regional goverment.
Funnily enough, only Spaniards that don’t want independence are saying that “we will be ruined”. Everyone else (including several top-notch economists) acknowledges that an independent Catalonia is perfectly viable.
Talking about majorities, on the last regional elections, pro-independence parties got 48% of the vote, whereas anti-independence parties got 39% (the rest being minority parties that don’t have a clear stance on the matter, or null ballots). I think it’s more likely for pro-independence to gain a 2% than the others an 11%, wouldn’t you say? It doesn’t matter, we’ll soon find out, only 12 days to go.
PS. There hasn’t been a “pro-independence doctrine” for 40 years, that is straight-up lying. Pujol was expressly against independence, as was his party, and they ruled Catalonia for 30 years. Those that have ruled after him were not pro-independence either, not until 2012. This is as fake as people claiming “children in schools are indoctrinated to favour independence”: I’ve attended the public education system in Catalonia all my life and we couldn’t even hang a Catalan flag in the classroom because “politics have no place in the class”.
Unfourtunately schools in Catalonia has been used as an indoctrination place, f.e., the use of the official language, the Spanish, it has been barely excluded from curriculum. The poll results has been different, Guillem. Europe faces a treathen.
Bull-fucking-shit. You’re not from Catalonia, I am, and I know what I am talking about. Never once has independence been preached nor encouraged in neither my school nor highschool, both Catalan and both public. Those that say “they indoctrinate the children” have never set a foot inside a Catalan school, yet they claim to know them better than those who have spent 8 years in them.
About the language, it’s bullshit too: most catalans speak Spanish better than people who have it as their only language, as evidenced by higher scores in the Spanish tests to access University. In my high school, teachers taught in whatever language they felt most confident, and nobody complained. Boys and girls get out of the Catalan education system speaking both Catalan AND Spanish at a native level.
You should get your head out of your ass and visit/know Catalonia more before making such bold statements about what life is here. By reading your posts it’s pretty evident that all you know about it is what you’ve been told by skewed media outlets, which does not properly represent what is going on here.
Quiterio Alberto Báez Benítez if you don’t know the reality of the place don’t spread lies about it. Whoever is actually interested in the truth and not partisan statements can see the hard data, like the economic balance between Spain’s regions, test score results… or if they want to get a feel of the place they are welcome to come visit, stay a while, and see what’s actually going on themselves.
Spaniards arguing in English…Interesting. 😂
Kristján Haukur Magnússon, the catalan debt is very high. Spanish economy is growing a 3% yearly.
me meo de risa….
If spain broke its his fault, not our fault. SO get ruin if you fucking want you lazy people
Ruined, more than nowadays is. Ruin for the whole country, transgression of laws, for the need to justify that unexplanable amount of corruption in that part of Spain. An unstoppable ascenssion of “regionalism” across the continent.
Wow! Quiterio Alberto Báez Benítez, you should read a little bit more and not eat everything PP and its indoctrination channels put out! Catalonia want to be independent because they don’t consider themselves Spanish, they’re fed up of the anti catalan sentiment all throughout Spain (an ignorant Spain that again gave carte blanche to an extremely corrupt right-wing party filled with Franco’s fans). Catalonia is fed up of having to drag about an impoverished, heavy, analogical Spain, and its an absolute untruth what u state of the language, Catalan is being taught because its their mother tongue, but as well as Spanish so don’t spread bullshit!
Kristján Haukur Magnússon, the catalan debt is very hight. Spanish economy is growing a 3% yearly.
All Spanish debt is very high, not only the Catalan, and it can hardly be helped if the Spanish Government consistently gives back a smaller portion of our taxes than it itself schedules in the State budget. It doesn’t help either that the ruling party is known to have stolen several hundred million euro of public money or that they gifted ten times the annual health budget of the whole State (at least 40.000 million euro) to the private banks that started the 2008 economical crisis with no prospect of ever getting the money back – even if the banks are doing fine now. Furthermore, the growth of the Spanish economy is only in macroeconomic terms, with the richest getting disproportionally richer while the poor stay as poor as they were in full recession.
Even further, one of the biggest growing markets in Spain right now is selling weapons and war ships to a known extreme islamist totalitarian state, Saudi Arabia, that has links to ISIS.
It will be independent!
Shut up,worry about your crappy country, and don’t speak what you don’t know
What is requested now, Faddi, is a referéndum! That s what is on the table now, and yes, it will be done!
I agree Ricardo but would be best if it was a legal one, one that has been discussed and agreed with the other 40 millions Spaniards who obviously see this act as vandalism of their rights, which it is.
C’mon, Benjamin, Catalonia belongs to the catalans and we all know the outcome of a widespread consultation to Spain! Again, the desires and will of the catalans muffled! Why is Spain so afraid? Maybe the no wins, why the undemocratic attitude?
Alberto Ordas Vinuales You are the one who should worrying about your crappy country now!
So because you know a widespread vote will be no better not ask. Quite democratic you towel maker.
Ricardo, I do agree that the Catalunyan society should be able to decide its fate and I genuinely beleive that the answer to Independance will be a ¨NO for the time being, so it is not out of fear of democracy that I maintain my position. Fortunately, not all Catalan voters consider that Catalunya is theirs alone as you seem to think. It is also part of a bigger picture. The problem is that the way this 1.0 act is being handled by the Govern is highly questionable itself democratically speaking towards both Spanish and EU regulations and citizens. That is the issue and this is why it has little opening for success. In my opinion, Catalunya could have waited and hoped for a more constructive central governement to formulate their request and wish for more Independance without having to divide its citizens again and again around petty nationalisms and especially, via another unrecognised consultation.
It’s pretty simple: if we vote, and a majority of voters wants independence, we will be independent. If not, we won’t. It’s called democracy.
Para ello primero hay que seguir las leyes, no sólo las que a vosotros os interesan
¿Siempre hay que seguir las leyes? ¿SIEMPRE? ¿Incluso si la mayoría de la ciudadanía no las reconoce legítimas? Me temo que no entiendes qué confiere legitimidad a la legislación en una democracia.
PD. Muchos confundís “legal” con “correcto/justo”, y no es así. ¿Te suena quien fue Rosa Parks? ¿Crees que era una delincuente que merecía cárcel?
¿Y que porcentaje de abstención invalidaría la votación? ¿Y si alguna ciudad de Cataluña luego quiere independizarse y volver a España podrán hacer un referendum? Es un referendum sin garantías donde no hay nada pactado
1. Eso habría que verlo. Por lo que a mi respecta, ningún porcentaje de abstención invalida una votación (¿qué porcentaje de voto hubo en el referéndum en España para aprobar la Constitución Europea?), puesto que en el mismo momento en que fijas uno, estás dando alas a que se llame a no participar.
2. Si la mayoría de ciudadanos de alguna ciudad catalana quiere volver a votar para pertenecer a España, ya se verá. De momento es una situación meramente hipotética, e incluso en aquellos lugares que no quieren ser independientes dudo que aceptaran convertirse en un exclave español. Dicho esto, si por mi fuera que voten
3. Sí que hay garantías, por haber hay hasta un equipo de observadores internacionales independientes.
4. Claro que no hay nada pactado, el Gobierno de España (y la práctica totalidad de los partidos mayoritarios) han dejado claro que nunca van a aceptar un referéndum y se niegan taxativamente a pactar el mismo. La culpa de que no haya pacto no es de la Generalitat, han ido a Madrid con propuestas de acuerdo en la materia DIECIOCHO veces, y siempre han recibido un no. Por eso se hace unilateralmente, no era la primera opción.
Tanto miedo tienen! Lo entiendo, sería la ruina de España, estoy seguro…
España embargara las cuentas d los políticos y gestionará el sueldo d los funcionarios catalanes y las competencias autonómicas con las que desvían capital y a pedir a la calle o hacer crowfunding, tan fácil como eso, sin dinero no hay independencia
Si democráticamente el primer piso no quiere pagar en la cuota del ascensor de 7 pisos más la gestora les mete a juicio y terminan pagando más que antes o se van a vivir a otro bloque (pero los del primero porque el piso sigue geográficamente ahí!)
Eso es imposible ignorante,la soberanía de españa reside en el conjunto de todos los españoles,antes de que cataluña sea independiente,se llenaran las calles de muertos cateto,jamás se romperá españa,preferimos morir antes,lo entiendes cateto ???? antes habrá guerra,o piensas que el resto de españoles nos vamos a quedar de brazos cruzados ??? váis a correr como ratas para francia
En fin, ya tardaba el legionario casposo que amenaza con “matar a catalanes antes de permitir que se vaya”. Da usted lástima, Francisco.
Ya faltaba el soldadito de pacotilla…
Fran Sánchez Delgado unga unga
Quieres saber qué pasará? Que os quedaréis fuera de la unión y a ver quien os salva de vuestra propia crisis.
UIIII NOS QUEDAREMOS FUERA DE LA UNION EUROPEAAAAAA QUE MIEEDOOOOOOOOOO AYYYYY
No sólo es dejar la Unión que si no es por nada pero con que 1 país dijera no estarías fuera al pedir la entrada y si España tiene derecho a veto otra cosa más que sería peor es que el 75 % de lo que produce Cataluña lo consume España esa de la que no queréis formar parte eso sí que sería malo por que por supuesto España pondría unos aranceles elevados para que muchos productos se consumieran de España y no de Cataluña también creéis que si fuera a las malas España podríais arrebaterles el paso por la frontera lo digo por que seguramente ese ejército que tiene Cataluña podría arrebatarsela …vamos un desproposito
The only good thing that could come out of this is that perhaps when European entrepreneurs realize that they can not rely on the Catalán Government as a reliable partner
The word democracy is just an inaptronym for describing political correctness. Doesn’t mean it’s fair or morally correct. In the wrong or sly hands it’s an instrument of dictatorship and enforcing unwanted issues on a nation. What would happen if Catalonia got independence? Another stake up the arrogant Eurocrats’ass!! No wonder they’re friggin scared!!!
How is it a “stake up the arrogant Eurocrats’ass” when the catalan separatist want an independent Catalonia within the European Union?
Because an independent Catalonia does not necessarily mean remaining a “YES” man to the EU arrogancy. That s precisely the separatist scope. If Catalonia has the balls to be separated from Spain then it has the balls to stand up for EU arrogance and Bureaucracy.
Patrick Farrugia
Si no sabes de lo que hablas métete la lengua en el culo,cateto que no tienes ni puta idea de lo que hablas,se quieren.independizar porque es la region mas rica de españa,pero no porque sean unos emprendedores,lo son porque franco puso la industria en cataluña, y la soberanía de españa reside en el conjunto de todos los españoles,no se puede partir españa como si fuese un pastel porque cuatro gatos lo digan,antes habria guerra y muertos
Ok so just because I m of a different opinion I’m a hillbilly. Calling others stupid just because they think differently than you makes you the dumbest ass of all. Typical EU arrogance. If Franco put the industry there Catalonians were able to maintain it….. Dumbass.
You can learn more about the relationship of both countries reading the the spanyards in the net, are lovely and democratic people. Exemple: fran sanchez delgado says ‘Patrick Farrugia
Si no sabes de lo que hablas métete la lengua en el culo,cateto que no tienes ni puta idea de lo que hablas,se quieren.independizar porque es la region mas rica de españa,pero no porque sean unos emprendedores,lo son porque franco puso la industria en cataluña, y la soberanía de españa reside en el conjunto de todos los españoles,no se puede partir españa como si fuese un pastel porque cuatro gatos lo digan,antes habria guerra y muertos’ all is love for we the catalans. We will vote and we will win our freedom.
Invasion by Spain with the backing of Brussels.
Catalunya politicians are now making crowfunding to pay their own ruin beacause spanish gobernment has their bank account ahah stupid europeans You are being so manipulated by false news about a region that represents the 1/7 of Spain
Government
The “crowfunding” just killed me 😂😂😂
In Catalonia, the Popular Party has ruled through the Constitutional Court of judges elected by hand for last 20 years. This is not democracy.
Che de retro Satanás
Ask Juncker. He seems to know more about the CFA franc than what is going on in Spain.
Sadly, the real origin of the problem is an elaborate and silent process of brainwashing that has rooted deeply in younger generations, where they were educated and emotionally manipulated by politicians to reject the spanish culture and the spanish language and only promote their own. this effective method of mass influence has slowly allowed pro-independece politicians to take control the catalonian population much in the same way as a sect influences their members. as a result, some catalans believe false history that they were told, speak poor or little spanish , have been lied to and without realisi g it, have become a means and a tool for this suave plan which ultimate finality is power and ambition.
Nothing will happen. Just like Brexit. They should investigate for Russian hacking and dispersement of fake propaganda. Russia wants a weak EU.
Os recuerdo que la cup se llena la boca de decir que el pp tiene 800 imputados pero meteros en Internet y poner cuántos imputados tiene Cataluña 1370 imputados, que la familia Pujol robo más de 3000 millones de eur…
What are your proves? there is no sence yet, but you know everything of course… check PP’s Gurtel case, with thousands of proves and cry for you little Spain
Y que e usa la independencia para tapar también la inutilidad del gobierno catalán que sabe donde se a metido y no sabe cómo salir que no explica lo de las pensiones lo de que España consume el 75 % de lo que producis y el día siguiente de la desconexión dejaría de consumir para consumir producto nacional ..
Que está mañana estaban diciendo que no tenían dinero para pagar las nóminas de los funcionarios un despropósito tras otro
https://www.elconfidencial.com/economia/2017-09-11/cataluna-deuda-deficit-fla-brexit-independencia-liquidez-rajoy-mercados-tipos-de-interes_1438904/
Y mentira tras mentira
de dónde ha salido usted, Cesar? Primero, no hace falta que lo diga la CUP (que los mencione cuando habla de los imputados del PP me parece un poco pretencioso).
Segundo, ya que habla usted de cifras puede mostrarnos algunas.
Tercero, por lo que comenta, creo que no entiende que aquí (y digo aquí porque yo soy catalán) de qué va todo esto. Si bien es cierto que desde ambas partes (Madrid y Barcelona) se ha usado el proceso independentista para tapar algunas y otras vergüenzas (y cuando no, siempre estará Venezuela) reducir “la independencia” a esto es creerse y no contrastar la verborrea incesante que dejan caer los medios sobre esto. Hay más, se lo aseguro. Y viene de lejos.
¿España consume el 75% de lo que se produce en Catalunya? Si usted lo dice será verdad. Lo que me parece bastante osado es afirmar que, si Catalunya se independiza, ese 75% pasará a ser reemplazado por “producto nacional”. ¿No le parece algo absurdo? Me juego lo que usted quiera que si tan fácil fuera, no habría que esperar a que Catalunya se marchara para reemplazar ese nicho. Es decir, entiendo esto como una amenaza (que ya hemos escuchado varias veces, no es la primera) que no va a parar a ningún sitio. ¿Se acuerda del boicot aquel del cava catalán? ¿Sabe, por poner un ejemplo tonto, que el corcho de los tapones de ese cava proviene de Extremadura?
El artículo que ha pasado usted, además, es tendencioso y está plagado de agujeros.
promoting the “referedum” is ilegal. this is anti-spain propaganda toward spanish people.
Spainish goverment is ilegal. It is against its own laws.
Read this article from Spanish TV saying legal experts ensure that 155 article cannot put in jail catalan government…
‘… Expertos constitucionalistas que han estudiado el posible desarrollo del artículo 155 de la Constitución explican que si el Gobierno opta por aplicarlo, podrá dar órdenes a las autoridades políticas catalanas o adoptar medidas económicas de bloqueo o de presión, pero no podría utilizar la fuerza ni disolver órganos institucionales catalanes, precisamente porque el fundamento del artículo es el de garantizar el cumplimiento de la Constitución y de las leyes y proteger el interés general, …’
http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20171002/significa-aplicar-articulo-155-constitucion-cataluna-no-suspender-autonomia/1619100.shtml
Sad, very sad…
Pelos comentários, isto aqui parece um sítio muito mal frequentado.
Funny I like the fact I vote unity of Spain
I don’t know what is happening so i have nothing to say
i like this this depate we should debat more often #moan the catalonia