UPDATE 13/06/2015: Following an all-night negotiating session in Brussels, a tentative deal has been hammered out by Eurozone leaders over Greece. Although the final terms of the agreement have yet to be published, the assorted budget cuts and tax hikes are rumoured to be even more stringent than the previous offer. Nevertheless, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has welcomed the fact that the deal will also meet his key demands of debt relief and mid-term financing, neither of which were on the table during the previous round of negotiations.
Negotiations over bridge financing are still ongoing, and several national parliaments (including the Greek parliament) will now need to hold votes. Should Greece accept the deal? Is the offer of debt relief enough?
Eurozone leaders were stunned by a resounding ‘No’ from Greece in its referendum on 5 July. Now all parties must return to the negotiating table and work out exactly what it was that Greece has rejected.
The proposals offered by the institutions were withdrawn when Prime Minister Tsipras announced the referendum, so has Greece just voted to leave the euro? Not according to the government in Athens, which claims that the vote has merely strengthened its negotiating hand.
However, unless the European Central Bank (ECB) offers emergency liquidity support soon then the Greek banking system will collapse. The Greek government is said to be considering a temporary “parallel currency” of electronic IOUs, similar to those employed by California during its debt crisis in 2009, but while this might work domestically, payment in IOUs would not be accepted by Greece’s foreign creditors.
What exactly would kicking Greece out mean for European democracy? And, if Greece is effectively forced out of the euro (there is no provision in the EU treaties to force a country out of the Eurozone, but defaulting inside the Single Currency will likely be unsustainable), will markets start wondering who goes next?
For their part, Chancellor Merkel and other Eurozone leaders argue that they also have a democratic mandate, and that a referendum in Greece shouldn’t automatically trump the will of their own voters. In addition, some believe that caving to Athens would represent a moral hazard, encouraging leftist parties in other countries (such as Podemos in Spain) to seek similar concessions.
Is it possible to square this circle without fundamentally overhauling how the Eurozone works? British Chancellor George Osborne has argued that the ‘remorseless logic’ of the Single Currency will drive the Eurozone inevitably towards either deeper political and fiscal integration, or disintegration. Which are we witnessing now?
And how did things get to this point? To get a reaction, we spoke to Kalypso Nicolaïdis, Professor of International Relations and director of the Center for International Studies at the University of Oxford, and asked her what she thought:
I think we should all understand that there is blame to be shared on all sides, starting with the Greeks who didn’t know how to create a sustainable state, and who don’t pay enough taxes, but who certainly are not lazy (so the Germans need to revise their cliché of the Greeks). Certainly, the Greeks have a fundamental problem of reforming their state, and of the underlying conditions of growth and competitiveness in Greece.
I would say that many Greeks – possibly even most Greeks – recognise that the problems started in Greece. But then the Germans and other creditors need to recognise that the deepening of the problem has come also in part from the conditions that were imposed by the so-called Troika – now called the ‘Institutions’. When you are trying to address a debt problem you need to increase revenues, which means getting people to pay their taxes, but you should not radically decrease spending in the short-term. You do need to decrease spending over the long-term, because you want a balanced budget, but most economists agree that the institutions made a mistake by going too fast. They had predicted that there would be lower growth but then Greece would take off again. It didn’t. Big mistake.
Where do we go from here? Under what conditions can discussions move forward in a productive way? Here’s what Professor Nicolaïdis had to say:
What happens now that Greece has voted ‘No’ in its referendum? Should the ECB extend emergency support to Greek banks? Is it time to fundamentally reform the Eurozone? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
715 comments Post a commentcomment
yes
Now we are in uncharted map!
why would the ECB extend the funds, when there is no program or any proposal for a program?
No agreement, no funds. Seems logic.
It ” seems logic” if you ignore 20th century History.
Nothing logic about it…..
If you see that Greeks have defaulted 5 times in their history of 150 years already then you should ask yourself. Would you borrow a company money when you know they got bankrupt 5 times already ?
The obvious answer would be no.
Before jumping into conclusions I would try to understand the reasons that led the company into bankruptcy so may times. You keep assuming that the Greek people and governments are the solo guilty parties in this whole story. And they are not. In fact, the story is much more complex than that and the main guilty parties are well hidden behind the curtains. And you seem to fail to see them.. It’s just easier to say “don’t give more money to those corrupts, they will spend it all over again for nothing”.
note: The IMF made over 2 BILLION euros in profit from the Greek debt alone! Something for you to think about…
I do agree with you. No agreement, no funds, no E.E. That’s why a 62% casted a No vote.
NO!
Αdding to Joao s note..O would add that German exports benefited 3 trillion euros from the Greek crisis during the 5 years….
Michalis, this entire union was thought economically with that in mind. Central european countries (Germany especially) have the best benefits in the production quota system. Their economies had huge boosts while Mediterranean countries suffered from the exact opposite (which allowed for the others economical boosts). They had their productive tissue dismantled to hugely benefit the industrialized countries
Hell no its time to pay up or leave the eurozone
Everyone should pay up then, no? Germany should pay up the Greek reparations for the occupation, no? The IMF should pay up the extremely high interest rates they imposed to the Greeks on their bailouts no? In fact, the IMF made over 2 BILLIONS in profit with the Greek debt alone. Maybe you should stopping watching mainstream TV.
For sure
.
According to the ECB’s mandate it must support the Greek banking system, but this is the antidemocratic EU we are talking about so they will probably break their own rules to punish the Greek people.
They’re already violating article 123 of the Lisbon Treaty with QE. But since QE enriches the rich (including Goldman Sachs where Draghi worked) it is happening anyway. The rich don’t care about the rules.
Give them more money now, and this will be a clear sign that everyone can do whatever he wants with this union.
Greece accepted the Baltic countries into EU and Eurozone, although we could refuse. You ought to be grateful, since if Greece had refused, now you would be servants at the rich Europeans countries!
The ‘no’ vote was a cry of the greek people, that austerity measures are directed and inlficted only on the poor. Such a severe economic crisis cannot be overcome only through sacrifices of middle amd lower class citizens. It was not a vote to leave the eurozone. It was a cry of despair. Reforms are necessary,but not only at the expense of the poor. Nobody said that european citizens are obliged to provide endless funds, it is a demand for more humane reforms. Do not twist facts. Greek citizens are not in charge of negotiations. They expressed their grief and lack of hope. Is that so hard to understand?
Well said.
You are absolutely right!!!!
Marian, You are absolutely right!
The referendum imposed by the Greek government on Greek citizens was clear. Do you agree with the program and the reforms set by the institutions? Yes or No? They didn’t ask us if we are desperate or not. If you voted to express your despair, you made a gross mistake which we all are going to pay. If you ask me, this government should have resigned before playing the country’s future on dice. They failed to bring a viable agreement on time as they had promised when elected and set up a mockery type of a referendum to rest their inefficiencies on our shoulders again!
The first response I have read that reflects what the “no” vote meant. Well said!
“They failed to bring a viable agreement on time” ???
How about: The IMF failed to agree with the agreement that was presented to them?!?!
Why in the world do you assume that the agreement was a failure? Because the big boys that apparently rule the world did not accepted it? The only reason they did not accepted it is because it was not in the line of more austerity, more privatization, more pension cuts, more taxes, more poverty and economical suicide. That’s why it was not accepted! Because the Greek government had the balls to make a viable proposition that gave some hope of recovering from the catastrophic situation the country is in.
Has the EU not asked for a recount until they got the result they wanted
hahaha very true
And now they want more?!? O get out of here!
When you see your neighbour’s house is on fire…wait for yours my dear.
in other words: should the taxpayers of 18 eurozone member states continue to subsidize Greek socialism?
Maybe. Just like the deep austerity measures imposed to the Greek people continue bailing out German banks.
The taxpayers have been subsidizing corporate capitalism for years with endless bailouts, tax breaks etcetera. Conservative governments always make more debts than socialists ones since conservatives like tax breaks for the rich and mass spending on weaponry.
Eurozone leaders were stunned over the weekend by a resounding ‘No’ from Greece. – this jsut shows how far removed they have become from what happens on the streets and homes and minds of the Europe they think they govern.
Is it possible to square this circle without fundamentally overhauling how the Eurozone works? – No. This is a good point where leaders should rethink their thoughts and start to seriously overhaul how this Eurozone works and kill the monster that was created.
Where do we go from here? – Overhaul the monster. rethink how the EU accepts new members (both sides turned a blind eye when the Greece of then wanted to join; serious errors were committed on both sides; honesty was missing from both sides) and the degrading social conditions that have been developing for way too long. Patch the immediate problem with a goal to strengthen the Eurozone and not split it apart.
What happens now that Greece has voted ‘No’ in its referendum? – look at the big picture! 5 years, 10 years, 20, 50 years from now! Don’t fall prey of the whining banks begging for more money to squander in unwise investments! Be honest and constructive about what we want the “NEW Eurozone to be!
And there is more… lots more!!! That have set the stage for this impasse.
The Eurozone we want is no Eurozone at all. The Euro must go.
.
Eurozone leaders may have been ‘stunned’ but the peoples of Europe and Great Britain were not.
The trouble is the federalist fanatics actually believe their own propaganda..
Next referendum please.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/06/us-eurozone-greece-odds-idUSKCN0PG0NP20150706
Eurozone leaders were stunned over the weekend by a resounding ‘No’ from Greece. – this jsut shows how far removed they have become from what happens on the streets and homes and minds of the Europe they think they govern.
Is it possible to square this circle without fundamentally overhauling how the Eurozone works? – No. This is a good point where leaders should rethink their thoughts and start to seriously overhaul how this Eurozone works and kill the monster that was created.
Where do we go from here? – Overhaul the monster. rethink how the EU accepts new members (both sides turned a blind eye when the Greece of then wanted to join; serious errors were committed on both sides; honesty was missing from both sides) and the degrading social conditions that have been developing for way too long. Patch the immediate problem with a goal to strengthen the Eurozone and not split it apart.
What happens now that Greece has voted ‘No’ in its referendum? – look at the big picture! 5 years, 10 years, 20, 50 years from now! Don’t fall prey of the whining banks begging for more money to squander in unwise investments! Be honest and constructive about what we want the “NEW Eurozone to be!
And there is more… lots more!!! That have set the stage for this impasse.
No, all the other countries should adopt socialism! Unregulated capitalism has been the cause of this; that is what has failed!
… what, just like the USSR?……look what a resounding success that turned out to be….
Now lift the sanctions Russia! and welcome!
In my opinion the way forward is only one of 2:
1. Greece leaving the Euro-zone and declaring bankruptcy. This will lead to huge cutbacks, bank crises and increasing inflation, but in the long run will give the Greeks a fighting chance to improve their economy within their lifetime.
2. The EU decides to change the monetary union and move to a fiscal union as well inviting Greece to join, offering to take the burden in exchange of having a joint control and responsibility for the Euro-zone fiscal policy as a whole.
In short please see this video: https://youtu.be/C8xAXJx9WJ8
Welcome to Greece! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JsN8w4qfB4
Oxi oxi And oxi again
The government keeps the people as its hostage. There is going to be some kind of emergency help from the EU to avoid starvation, etc, although the crisis is home made.
i realy like that since Greece has this problem nobody is talking about the church, Athos the orthodox vatican, and about a lot of stuff what’s going on in greece….why? cause okay maybe greece can solve it’s problems with the eu and the others, but i do belive there are a lot of inner problems what can push back again the country and it will…..k this is my opinion cause here everybody is talking about democracy and human rights what the eu is not respecting but nobody, never mention the greek inner problems….jurnalists sent to prison who wanted to show some names who could give a good answer where actually the money is……don’t know guys, in this moment i don’t see a solution for long terms for the greek crizis, cause i have a strange feeling there is a lot of things untold, hidden from the public…..and sure, mostly i like activists who fight on streets against capitalism, banks, and for freedom…well okay guys, but why nobody wants to change the inner problems, why the same activist is hiding the country’s own oligarchs, church and so on.
Good choice! Congratulation Greece!!!
congrats from me too ,proud of you Greece !
Proud of the people of Greece, disgusted at Syriza…. sold out
No
Humanitarian aid for misled Greeks, but nothing more without profound reform and hugely increased credibility.
No way,it’s a trap,neverending black hole
No more help. They wanted to leave Europe so let them leave
You are wrong. Most Greeks do not want to leave the euro.
Contact Vasilis Leventis and get to know his insights and suggestions about the Greek situation. Then offer these suggestions as the biggest part of a possible new agreement with Tsipras. Show us Greeks that Europe is all about reforms and correction of the errors that led us to this situation. Then, all Greeks will cease to be driven by one populist to another.
The only possible solution is to agree on a sustainable program that takes also under consideration a solution for the unsustainable debt…
Obviously
Immediately
No
Quite right Máté! Just a single inner problem of Greece: Greek people avoid taxing! A Slovakian citizen asked a question: Why EU wants them to help Greece when a Slovakian pensioner is due get 300 € and Greeks get 800 €?
Because the cheepest rent is 300€. Presenting a simple number doesnt Include the hole picture. If I would give you 1500€ a month and you lived in ……London would that make you rich?? Not to mention that after the reforms the pensions in Greece have dropped to 450-500 euros and the rent is still 300!
There is only one possible answer to what I have been reading “around here”: OXI.
No more comment.
Also we want to go out from Europe, because for the citizens europe is only a big mistake
EU and its institutions including ECB, should not and will not surrender to Greek PM Tsipras blackmail.Greek people have voted NO, misled by their goverment and unfortunately they will have to live with the consequences of their decision.They cannot blame anyone else in Europe or elsewhere.
You speak as if the current social and financial situation in Greece was created by Greeks alone. The truth is far from that…
What nonsense. The EU and ECB serve only the interest of the bankers. Greece has a government for the people. We need to halt neoliberalism and get rid of ALL politicians who dare even to think what the ‘financial markets’ want.
Financial markets go to hell.
How interesting that you have a Greek name and yet you speak as if you know nothing about Greek people. Do you live in Greece?
Yes, To save the country from bankruptcy, and stopped the daily terror created by the closure of banks.
The only possible solution it the “UPGRADE” of the EU to a Federal State!
So that it can “take” the national taxes and use them to solve the problems of the member states by order of need!
And so the Greek government must, also, allow the capacity of interference from the EU in such a “upgraded” notion.
Or We evolve to an European “Nation” composed by several semi-independent states or We retrocess to an EEC and leave it like that!
If this happened in ANY member state with an autonomous region, that nation’s central government would assume that autonomous region’s debt while legally persecuting that region’s government.
In the EU this is what We expect to happen IF ONLY the National Governments of each member state allow the path for a EU Federal State to follow it’s path!
This ofcourse involves NATIONAL REFERENDUMS about this PRECISE situation!
Dangerous, very dangerous. The EU won’t ever be a country, the people of Europe never wanted that nor they ever will. Referendums were made in several countries regarding the Lisbon treaty (which makes countries surrender the EU institutions their national sovereignty) and those referendums were bluntly ignored. The treaty was imposed to the people, like everything else regarding European politics. The main proof of the illusion of democracy across Europe.
Federalism will only bring the walls of this economical prison closer and closer. The European Union is a failed project since its beginning, many warned about it 20 years ago, were ridiculed… and now the people starts to see the true story behind this.
It’s amazing to me how can’t people consider the obvious solution. Just like Switzerland benefits from free trade agreements with the union, we could just leave this disaster of the single currency, get back to national currencies, providing each country of the control of its currency production (an essential value to keep at least traces of democratic values and freeing governments from the financial players) and create free trade agreements between the countries of the continent. No more BS. No more old-school politics of neoliberalism. Lets evolve for a change. Lets move into a scenario of money-free economies, high technological development towards mankind benefits (and the Earth and all its inhabitants). Or lets continue to operate under the same mindset that was invented hundreds of years ago….. the choice is ours.
you could not be more wrong.. take the power further away from the common person than it already is. sounds ridiculous to me
The only possible solution it the “UPGRADE” of the EU to a Federal State!
So that it can “take” the national taxes and use them to solve the problems of the member states by order of need!
And so the Greek government must, also, allow the capacity of interference from the EU in such a “upgraded” notion.
Or We evolve to an European “Nation” composed by several semi-independent states or We retrocess to an EEC and leave it like that!
If this happened in ANY member state with an autonomous region, that nation’s central government would assume that autonomous region’s debt while legally persecuting that region’s government.
In the EU this is what We expect to happen IF ONLY the National Governments of each member state allow the path for a EU Federal State to follow it’s path!
This ofcourse involves NATIONAL REFERENDUMS about this PRECISE situation!
Greksit
Typical Euro-Arrogance in the paragraph about EU “Democracy”….
“Should a referendum in Greece trump the will of voters in other European countries?”
I think you will find if the voters in other European countries were given the same chance for a referendum on the Euro then there would similar results as in Greece
What you actually meant to say is…
“Should a referendum in Greece trump the will of the Euro Ruling Elite?”
Exactly! Ignoring democratic referendums is the ruling elite’s main dish for breakfast…
So true! I m happy because there are voices like yours Paul x and Joao!
Maybe a reborn EU. An ecnomical AND social Europe. A europe of people not of bureaucracy. A europe with a strong free parliament and not a comission who serves companies.
An EEC with a small staff somewhere in Strasbourg (the association with Brussels must be cut). No political union, no common currency, no common foreign policy, no TTIP, no more policies suited for the rich.
Well we have no choice cuse it will be to expensive not to
ECB extend emergency support to Greek PEOPLE
ENOUGH ! Greece welcome to Eurasia Union. Have enjoy with Belarus, Kirgistan, Tajikistan and else…In Europe not have place for you !
Even the word Europe it is Greek and you tell us that there is no place for us??? I guess it some kind of joke, bad one of course! Hahaha
You are all Germanys SLAVES, you always were and you ll always be!
Yes as a fully equal member state requires support it should receive. It’s like when California declared bankruptcy the rest of the USA didnt demanded austerity and they support the state .other wise the USA could break upart. ..the same will happen if Europe. If they don’t really support Greece .it will break upart
Is it breaking apart for a severely faulty project that bad? New brighter and more intelligent horizons can be conceived.
The whole EU and the common currency project has to go back to the drawing board.
In 2005 European Constitution was voted in France and Holland. The No won. In 2008 Lisbon Treaty was voted in Ireland. The No won. In 2015 Eurozone Policies were voted in Greece. The No Won. It is a clear patern, one wich doesn’t seems to worry any eurocrat at all.
In order to implement a project you should plan slowly and act fast. In the case of Euro was like act now, if something unexpected happens we will thing about it ;) I blame Greece and EU for the current crisis !!!
Maybe at last after more than 2000 years of continuous bankruptcy everyone shall understand that you should never lend money to greeks?
I would say instead: maybe after 2000 years of using money as a tool for managing society everyone should understand that it is one of the worst ways to do it?
You speak like the Greeks alone generated this crisis. The truth is far from that. Very very far
dear evaldas do you know how many of your fellow countrymen are working in greek hotels over the summer season…thousands of students aged 30(really?)which means that if lending greeks stops all of them are coming back in kaounas and taking your job instead of mine!i think greece should leave the eurozone as well as the eurozone leaves greece(along with the aegean(oils , hydrogocarbonates , natural gas etc) the voxite, the magnesium , the aluminium , the nikel…etc)…but first of all i think you shouldnt talk , because this is not a democracy its just your prime minister(little merkel) given voice by the german finance minister!
NATO GO HOME
Américan terorist
Yes!
Gregos já estamos nós!..
Kick Greece out of the Eurozone and EU immediately!!!
I hope you never teach your kids those inhumane values…
joao take it easy on vladimir…he is a male and he likes…britney spears????????????
I don’t care what he likes, to be honest his views as inhumane, irresponsible as they are, aren’t his fault. He seems like the typical product of society. Of mainstream media, of indoctrination. We are all guilty for his lack of humanism and solidarity towards other human beings.
FREEDOM FROM €U!
US is trying to destroy EUROPE , Ukraine crisis , ISIS, emigration flow from Syria and North Africa .
Sommes-nous en dictature ? Non. Sommes-nous en démocratie ? Non plus. Les puissances d argent ont acquis une influence démesurée, les grands médias sont contrôlés par les intérêts capitalistes, les lobbies décident des lois en coulisses, les libertés sont jour après jour entamées. Dans tous les pays occidentaux, la démocratie est attaquée par une caste. En réalité, nous sommes entrés dans un régime oligarchique, cette forme politique conçue par les Grecs anciens et qu ont oubliée les politologues : la domination d une petite classe de puissants qui discutent entre pairs et imposent ensuite leurs décisions à l ensemble des citoyens.
Si nous voulons répondre aux défis du XXIe siècle, il faut revenir en démocratie : cela suppose de reconnaître l oligarchie pour ce qu elle est, un régime qui vise à maintenir les privilèges des riches au mépris des urgences sociales .ΖΗΤΩ Η ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑ ,ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΚΡΑΤΑ ΓΕΡΑ!
.
What a surprise, the EU is looking to make the Greek people vote again & again & again until they get the ‘right’ answer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11719974/Greece-news-live-EU-leaders-and-ECB-to-decide-Greek-fate-as-Yanis-Varoufakis-resigns-after-No-vote.html
> What happens now that Greece has voted ‘No’?
I asume it`s clear – Greeks are brave and strong nation, now they live on their own. May be policemen,doctors, teachers will need to find some extra work, but it`s usual situaation for other people. They just don`t need that poisonous money from outside!
Greece is Europe,but Europe must left Greece take a breathe!
Don’t they want to work to pay their debts? OK we will choose to don’t help them.
all countries of the Eurogroup should promote a referendum to decide accept the decision of Greece or not
Such an arrogance… to accept or not accept the PEOPLE of Greece WILL. You show the same European values as the neoliberalists that created this crises.
Stop give money to the banks start give money to the people. The big mistake of EU was and is give money to the bank, money that never reach the people, never.
Let’s start with an official common statement of Frau Merkel Angela admitting that her policy (one size fits all) of austerity has failed. Secondly, let’s revise a bit the principles of Lisbon Treaty.
A bit?! Lets put it to the ground!
EU without a treasury = failure.
Cancel Debit more than 70% and for all states member 50% relief debit
No.
https://www.facebook.com/jasonpicci/posts/10153498364893593
What will happens ?
1st) all the economic businessman in euro group must leave this place … Eurogroup is only for voted people
2d) they must listen to people from all eu who says that we need jobs !!!!!
3d) Europe is not Germans business !!!! We must be free and have the same opportunities !!!! We don’t want to work for a German factory and spend our money at German supermarket as they do to all east Europe !!!!!!!
4th) everyone must know that with this policy Germans want…. we have pay 4 times our debt and is still there and is bigger than 2009 !!!!!
5th) people must know that we are not here to make German RITCH with this high interest !!!!
6th) we don’t want the plan germans have for us : they are owners of more than 20 hotels in turkey that’s why they want our vat at islands to be 23% wen the same time in turkey is 11% so all our TURIST to go there !!!!
And many more !!!
Μιχαλης Μιχαηλιδης Panos Skouroliakos Xristina Skandalari Χριστινα Πετρενιτη Μαρθα Σκανδαλαρη Radek Otta Daria Bilska-Stamiri
Yes ECB extend emergency support to Greece banks
European union respect Greece
Public decision
http://agenciacamagueyanadeprensalibertad.bligoo.cl/forum-opposition-bill-announces-amnesty-for-political-prisoners
http://www.capx.co/the-disgraceful-humiliation-of-greece-shames-europe/
‘Course it should! Greeks answered no to the proposed plan, not to the eurozone as a whole! The rest of the eurozone made it clear, though, that as far as they were concerned, the referendum was a question on the Grexit. Well it wasn’t. And this latter interpretation distorts the referendum and, ultimately, the result, too. (Reason was to scare the Greeks into voting YES, a tactic that didn’t work)
No more money to them :(
The problem is that Greece has done NOTHING to address the long term solution.
Until it does something about the long term it shouldn’t get any more funding.
That’ll encourage them to deal with the reality of the situation.
Again, we will pay for that. Pity I’m not greek … Nobody pays for me!
The problem is that Greece has no other options and must return to the negotiating and solved the economics problems……………………
Well they have said No, them own choice, no support from ECB, they have borrowed and have to pay back..
Change the rules. No austerity. Expansion policy!!! Third bailout.
OXI
I think the EU will cave in ,because it cannot have a bankrupt state within the EU.
On a bigger scale though i believe and hope that this is the end of the EU as we know it ,there will now be a domino effect of countries wanting referendums like us in the UK which will result in us leaving im confident of that.The euro-sceptics in other EU states will gain massive momentum now which i believe cannot be stopped.And hope i does not.
In summary the EU will continue to bail out Greece until there is nothing left ,by which time every other country in the Euro will be drawn into this financial crisis.Im just glad we never joined the Euro.
But this is only my opinion.The EU is Dead, God save the Queen
The point is to start negotiations in Eurogroup in order to find viable solutions (reforms, investments package and debt restructure) and stay in Eurozone. Rules and democracy should go together in EU.
you may choose not to support a Eurpean greek bank just to blackmail us
we may choose not to pay the european central bank
life is simple.
I am not lazy. I work a lot of hours each and every day. I pay or strive to pay huge taxes imposed on me by my government and Europe’s leaders. my life has no future. I cannot expect anything good. austerity measures and I strive and my very best. then more and worse austerity measures and I still strive and try my best and this story goes on and on and it is not expected to change ever as all these austerity measures have made me and my nation only poorer and poorer. For the first time ever I was given a chance to voice my opinion and I did so. I am Greek and I am a European citizen. I am not a beggar and I am not trying to deceive anyone. There has to be a better way because the one offered us disastrous . We have tried it and we have suffered and our debts have only risen. We borrow money at high interest which we citizens never see. It just goes back from where it originally left but before doing so it changes our life our future in the worst possible way and takes away all hope. Some are gaining a lot and it is not either you from any other European country or me from Greece
.
After the Greeks exercise their right to self determination the empire will strike back…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=481777548666633&set=a.202788083232249.1073741827.100005031758493&type=1&theater
Ok, Greece is led out of the Eurozone. Fine, who’s next? because someone will be next…
the capital of EU is Greece so:
1.cut the debt in half as we(EU) did for other countries in half.
2. Legislate lows for tax controll
3. Tax the people over 500000 income.
3. Take back the taxes from the people that haven’t given us back
4. With the money they give Greece ghe has to upgrade the sectors of
agriculture, industry, metal exortion, gas, tourism, so investers will come and invest.
5. the chairman of the Eu this period is Luxebourg ,,,So I call upon this country to be the coordinator now and not Germany that we see all the time.
These are the reasons of the EU wanting to control Greece
the capital of EU is Greece so:
1.cut the debt in half as we(EU) did for other countries in half.
2. Legislate lows for tax controll
3. Tax the people over 500000 income.
3. Take back the taxes from the people that haven’t given us back
4. With the money they give Greece ghe has to upgrade the sectors of
agriculture, industry, metal exortion, gas, tourism, so investers will come and invest.
5. the chairman of the Eu this period is Luxebourg ,,,So I call upon this country to be the coordinator now and not Germany that we see all the time.
These are the reasons of the EU wanting to control Greece
What happens ?? EU grows up and stops behaving like a dictatorial sociopath with its head up its own ass, and sits down and finds MIDDLE GROUND with Greece and signs a deal that ENDS this death spiral ciriss aka never ending austerity in Greece.
Outside the E.U totally to make the 3rd Empire!!!
No more money to them!
Solidarity with Greece!
Who created this problem …..
Please think?
That`s something out of the question!!! Politicians, bankers the IMF and thinking…….
Maybe finally accept democracy and come up with a viable solution. Or even refrain from exressing opinions on who should run in what way each country as Schultz does?
I’m not sure… ut I know what is not going to happen. .. more austerity only for banks interest ( I mean Greek and other European banks). The beginning may not be easy but Greek people hope the future is going to be better…
“Now what happens?”
Simple. Referenda in the remaining eurozone countries :-)
“Give more money to Greece?”
☐ όχι
☐ ναι
Why don’t we do a referendum like this?
“Continue to bail out German banks at the cost of the Mediterranean countries?”
☐ όχι
☐ ναι
It’s to easy to be mainstream oriented but so hard to see the real picture, and the players behind the curtains…
A bit of advice: whenever you think you’re one of the chosen few who can see through the secrets and mysteries and hidden agendas while the mere mortals around you fall for the usual lies:
think again.
What is needed is deep reforms.The cliental system ( a political party in government hires in the public sector only those who voted for it!!! With huge salaries taken by the taxes of the private sector !!) must be seized.Thousand of incapable hired public emploees -they do not accept any valuation for their work!!!!- must be fired.Also the Free Market should be left alone to function.-because evrey time the political party in government gave all the states’ supplying and constractions to special enterpreneurs who fighted in its side!!!! Is this a free Market??? NO.
What Happens Now? The only thing that can happen to avoid political and economic catastrophe in Greece,a third bailout will have to be given,effectively throwing more good money after bad,the Greeks will sign up to some sort of watered down austerity plan which they then wont stick to,and this whole farcical Euro nightmare will continue.Poor old Frau Merkel must wish she had never even heard of the Euro.
NO = THE END OF KILLING EU CITIZENS PLAN !!!!!
What’s your plan B?
Yes, Let’s not pay our debts as Greeks do, wtf is this? They have to pay their debt. Those are the money of all EU tax payers.
My friend, the situation is far more complex than that. Don’t let your opinion be shaped my mainstream media and neoliberals. The IMF made over 2 BILLION in profit just from the Greece bailouts. This all situation has very little to do with the small corrupt country that asked for money and now doesn’t want to pay. It has to do with far more complex political and financial agendas. The Greeks are paying for German banks bail outs with their own future. Private banks that made bad deals are now being saved by these mechanisms of removing sovereignty from countries, privatizing their social services (health, energy and so on), raping their resources for profit and commanding their democratically elected governments. So sorry… but it’s not as simple as you paint it. It’s actually the other way around. You just need to take a peek behind the curtains.
At once if there is left any reason to stop tens of billions of losses worldwide and useless suffering of Greek citizens.
Yes. Europe can’t afford to given up on Greece anymore it couldn’t afford to do the same with Germany after WW2. And the Eurozone definitely needs reforming because is not prepared to deal with the quite diversified economies of their member countries.The Eurozone was built to fit the German economy and similars but the reality is very different. And the debt problem has to be tackled, contrary to what the German Vice-Chancelor has said this morning. The greek debt is unsustainable and the debt crisis doesn’t affect only Greece, it’s an European problem.
The Greek’s expenditures, pensions, wages, social assistances were higher than every other EU country.
Everything didn’t happened in one night, the country’ representatives knew well what was going to happen in that way but they didnt want to sacrifice, they thought they were going to be helped always by EU, but EU’ mission is not to make Greece survive.
Greece is under debt obligation it owes to IMF, EC, WB and Greece is the one who has to payback them. Now it’s Greece time to accept EU’ suggestions for the will of Greece for the will of Europe. I dont think there is another way for Greece except for EU and the EU way means to accept their suggestions. Hope new referendum will take place and Greek people will no longer be stubborn.
I would like to see again the previous Greece and these troubles will finish as soon as possible.
What an arrogant opinion. The Greek people spoke! They have their own sovereignty (or at least they should, but inside the EU that’s only a mirage nowadays), they have their own will and they should set their own future. So no, Europe can’t obliged them to accept anything, that’s called fascism my friend!
You see this situation in a very mainstream oriented way. Turn off the TV, it will help you to clear your mind and see the truth here. The Greek governments were not choir boys, that’s for sure. They were corrupt and let the countries finances go overboard and got the country into a mess. BUT, and this is the most important part that you seem to ignore… all the money that was “given” to Greece was not just given. It was pretty much imposed by economical hitmans of Europe. After Greece joined the EU, just like Portugal, Spain and Italy, this was basically the deal: you can join this union, but you’ll have to abide its economic rules. For example, we will give you money for you to stop producing, to destroy your production tissue. Instead, you can buy German and French products! Here’s the money to do it. And that’s what happened. It’s called economical imperialism. Destroy a countries productive tissue, give them cheap money for them to buy your own products and boots your own economy instead, when the bubble bursts, impose to them severe austerity measures, that include imposing to them big bailouts that make billions in profit to the institutions that give them the money (IMF, just as an example, made over 2 BILLION euros in profit from the Greek loans alone.), go in the country and private their social services for profit, rape their natural resources for profit, ….. do I need to continue?
It’s all a big game of money and power. It has nothing or little to do with the small corrupt country that asked for money and now doesn’t want to pay…
yes.
It’s terrible for ex communist countries. Greece destroy their hopes about the western paradise! After 25 years they are still poor. Unfortunately the train left.
western paradise? LOL tell me where….. because I only see raping capitalism, unsustainable economies, poverty on the rise, and the highest perspectives of another world war since the last one… western paradise is only on mainstream american movies. Open your eyes.
Ι really think most of the people who commented here have absolutely no clue what is happening in Greece,or,rather,what has been happening in Greece for the last 5-6 years.
Everyone thinks that we’re lazy,we don’t work,others pay for us to live and we choose not to pay back.The problem is that the people of Greece have not borrowed a single euro (or drachma,since it’s starting to grow on the Europeans) from another country,our governments have.The reasons behind the loans lie with the people who signed them and the usage of the amounts we borrowed vary from rebuilding the country after the Wars that decimated our people,all the way to (yes,savor the moment I’m saying this) paying the very few that traded their votes for a government job,where they had zero tasks and a huge wage.What you need to understand,however,is that the vast majority of Greeks have not cheated or stolen from you or your countries,our politicians did.That much is,indeed,our fault,although there was never another choice,but the same old corrupt politicians or the occasional fresh people that inevitably proved to be ineffective,to say the least.Believe me when I say that we have compensated (in fact,overcompensated) for our poor choices,or lack thereof in the past few years,when every family in Greece has given their own blood to pay for the extremely heavy and irrational taxes we have had since the dreaded day we brought the IMF into our mess.Yes,we are a mess,but not a mess we chose,not a mess we wanted,not a mess we enjoyed,at least the overwhelming majority of us.
Bottom line is,before commenting “why pay for the lazy clowns,let them rot”,please consider what the people of Greece have been through and are still going through.All you know is what the media have tried to show you and most of you show no interest in getting the whole picture.I encourage you to converse with someone who lives here and knows the situation.It’s human lives we’re talking about and you have no idea how many of them are lost everyday due to this situation here in Greece,so please be a little more considerate before condemning us.
If I see many of the comments here:
1. Learn to talk to eachother with more respect, 2. Try to listen to each other, 3. try not to jugde each other without being informed well, 4. Be careful from what what sources you get your information from, 5. Try to show compassion with the problems, people in other countries are anticipating
Just friggin kick them out – when they piss off for Russian money . . . . .then the Greeks will know misery!
Moron…. Europe should be based in human values. You are the same kind as the neoliberals that know only money and power. Get out of here….
Your leaders are nothing more than Merkels pets like our previous goverments…yesterday we said no to the EU of Merkel, of bankers and of loan sharks…we dont want this kind of EU…you cant kick us out of EU because we already have said No to the EU…even if we leave eu tommorow we will continue being Europeans unlike with some of you that you are called europeans just because you are in the EU…
The European Union has to try to figure out the problems of each country together. In my opinion, the crisis of Greece is not only a monetory issue, but most of all an issue of values. It seems, that Europe is a bunch of countries, governed by the world bank mafia. They make us fight with each other in stead of supporting each other. We have to rediscover human values again.
You are wrong … here in Greece Yes = Yes and No = Yes … So nothing happens, nothing new …
They should stay in the EU, as a “trading partner”.
Greece is still in Europe, on the map…
But they should leave the Euro currency (€), go back to the “drachma”, or whatever… that might be good for them, to have control over their currency, devaluate it, increase exports etc…
And please, do forget about any kind of financial/tax/banking union.
Sorry. I’ve had enough of left-wing poetry…
PS- dear Greece, remember Portugal? Remember when you made our life difficult in the EU?? Well… “kharma” is a b****, have some…
I feel for the Greek people, honestly.
But I never forget some things.
So… I’ll just sit quietly and watch… and I wish Greece the best.
Yes – Greece is part of Europe, and should stay in the EU, for their cultural heritage.
But no – Greece should not be in the Eurozone, and should not use the €/Euro as their currency, for now… in the future, maybe… who knows?
“Now what (should) happen(s)?”
* A motion of no confidence tabled in all (slave) Member state parliaments & EP- re: Trust in the competence of the suzerain EU & Troika.
* Allow referendums in ALL remaining 27 EU countries immediately- worded:
Do you want your full sovereignty back & replace the “cold pack” (all EU treaties) by renegotiating a new deal based on new & advanced criteria (dismissing ALL & reneging on THEIR self promoted pension guaranties to save funds) based on: http://worldhappiness.report/ ?
☐ YES, QUI, JA, DA
☐ NO, NON, NEIN, NYET
And as i wrote…we will be Europeans ever if we leave the Eurozone or the EU tommorw…unlike some of you, you are called Europeans just because you are in the EU…OXI to the Eu of Germany and loan sharks…kisses from a real european
OUT, FROM GREECE…..BANKRAPSY E.U SYSTEM….WE WANT SERBIA – GREECE – RUSSIA- ORTHODOX BROTHERS
Then EU pie crumbles.
NO
vilnis peimanis give me one good reason for latvia being in the EU…only one good reason…you havent offered nothing…you are in the EU because you are pets of Germany…and remember Greece is the 12 star on the flag of the EU…you asked Greece if you can enter the Eu a few years ago…if we havent said yes you wouldnt have joined the Eu and you wouldnt write in this post now…and even if we leave eu we will continue being europeans, not like latvia who is called a european country just because you are in the eu
My dream scenario:
Election in Spain later this year.
Corrupt PP out.
New government more friendly to people and less friendly to banks and financial markets.
???
End of the Euro.
Party time.
The Euro is our misfortune, and soon may we end it. I still think 5-10 years but I’ll take it earlier. No more bailouts for the rich paid for by austerity on the poor. No more unelected EU types worrying about banks and financial markets only. Less EU, more democracy.
JC Juncker on trial for illegal tax schemes. Draghi on trial for violating article 123 of the Lisbon Treaty.
Macedonia can join?
Macedonia is a part of greece and is already in the Eu
After OXI comes CONTAGION.
Maybe your country because i dont think that latvia is a nation
Congratulations on the exercise of European Democracy refine your may to choosing your destination Dear Greek friends wishing him good luck not only hope to see your little cake´s also time to arcade with its consequences of their choice
The question I keep asking is why did the ECB decide to cut the liquidity to the Greek banks in the first place? Since Greece has the money to pay wages and pensions, not sending the cash seems like a very odd decision. The only explanation I can find, is that they wanted to put pressure on the voters so that the YES would win. I am really interested, to see what they are going to do now that the referendum has passed. From now on it is not be about pressuring but about killing.
The idea was exactly that, to put pressure on the people, get them into fear so that they would vote yes. The Greeks were stronger than that!
I’m deeply sorry for Greece’s conundrum. The reality is, I would be in the same mess, had I been born Greek.
That said, I know how it’s like when your government takes EU money and never shows it to the people. Or when insane fiscal policies are imposed blindly, favoring those who cheat their way out of paying taxes. I think, at the very least, we should all learn to not sit quietly as we are robbed and forced to pay the damages ourselves afterwards.
That said, I don’t think there is an easy solution to this. I respect your position to reject a proposition which seemed fair to me, as a middle class worker with all my life ahead of me. And I think that’s the point. I won’t truly understand what it’s like to be in your stead. What I do understand is that you should demand a solution from your current government, which needs a better plan then strengthening your position in what they see as a negotiation. Time is of the essence. Since the longer this uncertainty stands, the more you lose. You need a plan better than a bailout. You need to leverage a long term plan to raise your GDP if you want to get out of austerity. That said, my deepest sympathies go to a country I love very much.
Of course, Greeks are our European brothers even if they, like me, are Mediterranean.
Sorry about Greece… How is possible to vote like this?!
Now Greece has to leave the euro so that people can get back to their lives. There is no future for Greece within the euro. So log as Greece stays in the euro, all governments will have their habds tied down and no economic development will be possible.
Remember this my friends all over Europe……….Soon at YOUR door ;-)
If the enemies of Europe (Merkel, Draghi, Lagarde, Dijsselbloem) refuse to give massive debt relief (which will lead to the destruction of the Euro, which many of us want), then I encourage Tsipras to make a deal with Russia.
The Euro must be destroyed at all and any cost. The Euro is our misfortune.
I’m sorry that propaganda is working so well after all. Most people here are misinformed and misled by their governments into believing that we lead an amazing taxless life drinking ouzo and sunbathing. It’s true, our country is a heaven on earth but life here is right now unbearable. When there is no hope there is no future. One of your arguments is that your salaries are lower. Well, then demand more! Why should we all work equally hard just to feed an insatiable monster? Please, I urge you to read more and then reflect. We’ve been given the wrong medicine, the wrong treatment and now that the patient is struggling what does the EU do? Chopping off the rest. We are not talking about rules and institutions but foundations whose only interest is profit. I’m a person not a number.
I see here a lot of people from all over europe I did before but I read a few comments and many who say that Greece has to leave the currency Greece does not leave the range and europe simply because Greece made this currency and this compound Greece will give this battle for all Europeans alone as always and to understand what I say Search and find which countries resisted the Nazis and for how many days and imagine that Greece was hit simultaneously Germany Italy Albania and Bulgaria
and they still think that their policy is a panacea
Here’s an idea: holidays in Greece to help the local economy. http://www.visitgreece.gr
IF YOU PEOPLE WATCH YOUR TV …. YOUR BRAIN IS IN BLENDER !!!!!
Think for a moment :
Why we have pay 4 times the debt until now but we still must pay more then crisis start ????
Why our gold is at Germany ???
Why they want us without Greek factories ???
Nobody wants anything my friend. Stop believing the TV exactly as you say.
Even if now the debt is cleaned you still need 36 billions to function only for the last 6 months. That is the problem. You cannot sustain yourself even on blank state.
The conditions are about reforms so that you can be able to sustain yourself. Did you even read them ?
Germany and France should suffer for what they did to Greece along with the private sectors !
Apologies for the bad language
«Should the ECB extend emergency support to Greek banks?» How else can Greece stay in the eurozone?
It’s great yo spend others money , not so great paying it back. Greeks want especial treatment just because of their location. I say pay what up , and shut up.
Alex Von Damien I am a Greek and I work more than 12 hours a day, including weekends. I am paid nothing and I have neither the time nor the stamina to spend time with my family. ARE YOU CALLING ME A LAZY FUCKER???Because politicians in and out of my country have decided that they want to save YOUR banks? Sorry to say,you have no clue what goes on in my country! You only come here to party and have fun. That doesn’t mean that’s what we do all day. And we are not going to apologize for living in a blessed place with the sun and the sea all around us! Instead of listening to what they tell you, look into things. And I won’t allow ANYONE calling me names just because they are ignorant. Have a nice life. If being a part of Europe with people that don’t respect me is what I have been working my ass off for the last 5 years, than I don’t want it!
Yes!
http://deuda-publica-espana.com/
Lena Gavera that’s true. Why should they……they expect people to understand them for “everything” and they have a very short memory! We on the other hand don’t. The wheel keeps turning. There is a Greek saying “where you are I’ve been, and where I am you will be”. And when “they” will, I hope they won’t ask me to understand. Our people have “understood” once too many in the past!
Greece will not be kicked out from the Eurozone, it’s propaganda. What happens now? Fight for real democracy in EU begins! EU should be reformed or should not exist . This way ain’t going anymore!
Greece’s vote should send a loud message to the Eurozone policymakers – austerity and increasing taxes is not the solution to solving Europe’s financial problems. The key is decreasing Greece’s – and Europe’s – high unemployment rate; then and only then will many of the continent’s economic woes start vanishing.
One more case where the word ‘austerity’ gets thrown about arbitrarily.
Greece’s “message” is simply a yell of despair and anger, an opportunity to shout at someone, figuratively speaking, and I’m sure it felt good – but that’s all it was, really, and it’s not a key to solving anything at all.
One can discuss whether moving away from austerity makes sense if and only if your economy is at levels of productivity and competitiveness such that anyone is ready and willing to buy your bonds and invest in your country – because they believe that you’re going to make enough money in the future to pay their interest, keep up your wages and pensions etc., keep up public spending and have something left over to re-invest and keep or even increase productivity.
The US is a good example for this. Money gets thrown at them, because investors basically have unlimited faith in their ability to earn and grow. They can afford to look at the ‘austerity’ concept with contempt.
The very reason for the Greek misery is that nobody on the free market had enough faith in them any more to lend them cheap money. Kind of understandable when your income levels and levels of public spending do not match your productivity. When you have to issue high-interest bonds not to be able to invest money in your own economy, but to keep overspending, feed the coffers of a few corrupt oligarchs and cover the interest payments of old bonds. They can’t do what the US does and turn away from austerity, because nobody will lend them any more money at an interest they can actually pay!
That’s why EU/IMF/ECB decided to jump in and do exactly that, lend them cheap money at long terms – and at high risk for themselves, risk backed by the tax money of their members’ population.
They did this on conditions of course, those being that Greece take swift and decisive measures to prop up its economy, cut spending, fight corruption, install a tax system worth speaking of, increase productivity, encourage FDI, etc, etc, etc so that productivity and spending and wages would match better, and thus pave the way for financial normalization. This takes a while, of course, which is why the credit terms were quite long too.
Nobody expected to see miracles in 5 years. But what has actually happened?
If a significant number of Greeks actually really believe that horseshìt à la ‘they drink our blood’ and ‘they want to destroy our economy’ and ‘their banks get fat at our expense’ I can only shake my head in disbelief and give up on them. If this kind of hostile and primitive attitude prevails, there is little hope for them.
I certainly do feel for the ordinary Greeks – the ones at the wrong end of corruption and mismanagement. But doing nothing and keeping to pour even more money into Greece, trying to maintain a status quo, is going to achieve nothing at all – it will only accelerate the downward spiral.
Either the Greeks topple their incompetent governments themselves and install one that actually offers a feasible prospect, or their creditors will have to force their hand one way or the other. Either way, at this point it’s going to be a hell of a mess.
Hriding Diving
What are the problems of the banks really? Anyone to shed some lights?
The answer is only one. Yes…for 10 days so that the government signs a memorandum with the lenders.
We don’t pay enough taxes?Where does the professor lives?They drink our blood.By the way,nothing happens after no.The European union will continue the same horrible policy.More people will commit suicide(10.000 up to now),we will have more poverty,the hospitals won’t have medication and more children will die.
Devem querer fazer da Grēcia um país do norte de África, para poderem entrar e privatizar as reservas de petróleo grego, aliás, as maiores da Europa, que ainda nem começaram a ser exploradas. Se fosse grego, queria sair do euro.
εγω ξερω να πω πως η Ευρώπη δουλεύει μονο για ενα μέλος την Γερμανία !! τα υπολοιπα ειναι απλως οδοντοκρεμα!! Γερμανεια=δρακουλας!!! μας εχει πιει το αιμα! κι αυτο δεν το βρίσκω δίκαιο! γιατι δεν διαγράφεται το χρεος;;;;εδω ενα δανειο για σπιτι περνεις και σου βαζουν και ασφαλεια σε περιπτωση που δεν μπορεις να το πλήρωσης!! αυτο το δανεια που πηρε η ελλαδα δεν εχει ασφαλεια;;;;; δεν ειμαστε ηλίθιοι οι ελληνες!!!! μπορούνε να πούνε ανοιχτά Παγκοσμιοποιηση,ενιαίο νόμισμα και τελειώσαμε!!!μας ζαλισατε με κατι κάρτες !!! θα παει η μάνα μου 80 χρονων να βγαλει καρτα;;; ξεφτιλες!!! οι ζωές των ανθρωπων στο βωμό του χρήματος !!! ακου βιώσιμο χρεος!!! αυτο δεν ηταν βιώσιμο απο τότε που το δωσανε!!!! παρε δανειο να μας πληρώσεις το προηγούμενο!!! πως θα ειναι βιώσιμο με τέτοιους τόκους;;;;;;;;;;; και τωρα θα μας πετάξουμε κανενα κόκκαλακι να μας ξεγελασουνε και το κρέας το τρώνε οι Γερμανοί και οι Ολλανδοί!!! αληθεια οι ανθρωποι που αυτοκτόνησανε απο απελπισια που δεν είχανε χρηματα να πληρώσουν τις υποχρεώσεις τους και να φάνε τα παιδια τους !! ποιος ευθυνεται;;; κανονικά πρεπει ολοι αυτοι να τιμωρηθουνε που φτασανε τους λαού ως αυτο το σημειο! οχι μονο τις Ελλάδας αλλα και της υπόλοιπης Ευρώπης
We also did a small referendum in my family, and we decide to move all our asset out of Europe, so we do not have to pay taxes or whatever solidarity fees anymore…….. democracy!
Now if we like this Neoliberal Europe we gonna fight as always for who to blame for this mess,except banks and oligarchs.If we want a Social and Alternative Europe,then we should see public debt not just for Greece but for every country in a congress and then we should give more powers to European Parliament and fight for engaging Democracy with Europe instead letting non elected fellas doing what they want to!
Now if we like this Neoliberal Europe we gonna fight as always for who to blame for this mess,except banks and oligarchs.If we want a Social and Alternative Europe,then we should see public debt not just for Greece but for every country in a congress and then we should give more powers to European Parliament and fight for engaging Democracy with Europe instead letting non elected fellas doing what they want to!
No, Greeks have to be left to die either quickly or slowly — let them have a referendum on that. And for God’s sake save out banks first!
Alex von Damian is Bulgarian. As we can see, he’ s a fat, well – liking johnny. I guess he works too hard
@ldeboissieu: Rire en pensant que si le PS était dans l’opposition il soutiendrait Tsipras contre l’UE néolibérale qu’il façonne quand il est au pouvoir.
Well the answer in the short term is to set up an alternative currency, akin to the bitcoinc. Call it the BitDrachma. Thos e wanting to stay with the baking systeme of the Euro can go on trading with that fiat money if it will be accepted. Those who prefer an honest form of trade choose the Bitdrachma. And no I am not kidding.
However, why do you need to ask what now. Follow where feasible what they did in Iceland and set themselves free from ties that bind them to what has become a rule of insanity. Ask yourselves Greeks, how many of you are happyl with being forced to live by the thought police of political correctness? Not only will you be free of the banks if you are out of Europe but free of the crippling mind games they have been playing with out lives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw1M4-KlzHc
The damage they make is big … Now they must give rights back !!!!!!!
disaster one way or another
@ Stella,
Whist you live and breathe nothing is a disaster. All will be well with Greece.
Now it can be seen clearly why there was no agreement between Greece and the Eurozone . The Eurozone Greek crises was engineered with a Greek State Default, by Franco-German interests and the protectionists interests of the euro-sceptic British State Backed Greek Government SYRIZA-ANEL coalition , to close the Greek banks – that is why Eurosceptic SYRIZA-ANEL called a snap Referendum to provoke the Eurozone to closing the Greek Banks- , to block €300 billion been transferred from China to Greece into Mt Olympus Ventures.and to block economic growth in the Greek and global economy. I’M SHOCKED.We have an UNHOLY ALLIANCE.The plunge in Chinese equities in the past three weeks has reached almost €2 trillion in market value, about 10 times Greece’s gross domestic product last year. – €300 billion could come to Mt Olympus Ventures from China.The Greek people have Franco-German business interests and the euro-sceptic British State backed cronies in SYRIZA-ANEL Government all against them – This is a David and Goliath Battle. The Euro is under threat by all these interest groups that are blocking development in Greece. They are all denying the emergence of a European Renaissance Greece. – -https://twitter.com/Olympus42
Really ? Why Italy who was same as you 4 years ago is not the same now?
Could it be because they actually did something about their situation instead of just staying and doing nothing ?
ahahah Italy is a complete mess, just like Portugal and Spain. The “improvements” you are trying to use to make a point were just improvements on the countries economic numbers. What you fail to understand is that that does not reflect an improving of the people’s lives. By the contrary, Italy, Spain and Portugal are now poorer than ever. People’s pensions were cut to a poverty line, unemployment is higher than ever, poverty rates are rising for several years now, social rights were removed, public strategic companies were privatized for profit, prices are higher for basic products,…. and so on. Reality is much different than the numbers that neoliberal politicians throw at you in the compliant mainstream media.
Greece, although it is a member of the Union since 1981, it did not reform the state to be a functional and democratic country. It continued to be a state of 1900! Greece cannot be considered an EU country in its institution. It has to change EVERYTHING, from its constitution (seaparation of state and the Greek Orthodox Church), the tax system, the education system, the local and regional government, the electoral law, pass laws to free market and free professions, smaller public sector, to abolish any left monopoly, and many many other things! It is more than clear that all these changes must be done by Greece itself. There is no EU that will this for it. After Greeks bring their country in 2015, then they may hope for some new help from European citizens. From the other hand, I think that if Greece does all the above, most probably it willneed no new help from no one! Its economy will be in track almost immediately, because Greeks have the money for that. They just hide it, for now!
Europeans, do not waste even a cent of a euro for Greece. Let them alone to solve their problems. And if Greece decides to leave the EU (again, this would be free choice of the Greeks as nobody can kick them out), let them free you from their presence in the Union! Do not accept any moral blackmail, anymore!
Basically any currency now in circulation on this planet is /fiat money/. The Euro, the Dollar, even Bitcoin. And that’s not a bad thing, on the contrary.
Inventing new currencies is not going to change anything. Any possible currency one can up with, other than 15th century style bartering, is going to be based on good will and trust in your trading partner’s honesty and competence, as well as trust in the entitiy that issues the currency.
Without this trust, the whole concept of currency becomes worthless, and whatever it’s called, it’ll be worthless soon. Establish the trust, and in essence it doesn’t matter what you call your money and whether it’s coins, notes, or even just a number somewhere in a computer system.
FIAT currencies are not a bad thing?? That’s the all point of this conversation! FIAT currencies don’t work, they never did, they never will! It’s all based in speculation instead of being backed by something real and physical, like once they were backed by silver of gold.
No, it’s not the point of this conversation. Nor is it true that fiat money is based only on speculation; that’s simply nonsense. Please try to keep separate what really are very different things. If you actually believe in the feasibility of commodity based currencies you’re behind the times, economically, by about half a century. Commodity standards simply don’t work in today’s world, and they have contributed massively to the economic woes of the 20th century and as such certainly had their share in the political atrocities as well.
Fiat currencies aren’t perfect, they certainly have their drawbacks, but at least they offer better instruments of monetary control and economic exchange between actors of different size and nature. There is a reason why /no/ economy on this planet actually uses the traditional gold standard any more.
Ok. You’re definitely too deep in the fake money economy world. Tell me one FIAT currency that is working without prospects of a bust in the next decade or so. There’s none. The entire planet is owing money to itself. It’s absurd. Money is created out of nothing, electronically, subjected to pure financial markets speculation every single day. You’re you’re that deep, I’m sure you know what the Fractional Reserve System is. And if you do, the only way you can support it as a good system is if you were indoctrinated into it by your college economy professors.
Evolution has nothing to do with just time passing. Evolution is, above all, recognizing mistakes, improve processes and don’t fall on the same mistakes again. And the reality of modern economy itself proves my point.
You want to talk about economy? Lets talk about the only true economy there is. The one that Greeks named in fact! An economy (Greek οίκος-household and νέμoμαι – manage). Our household is the planet Earth and we need to manage it in the most intelligent and sustainable way. Because the Earth resources are finite, and this money economy is a infinite consumption economy, something that is impossible in the real world. So lets speak about the real economy, a Resource Based Economy perhaps. Not this fake BS Milton Friedman invention that brought the entire planet into wars, environment degradation, ecosystems collapse, social stratification and so on…. so that “economists” can play with numbers in computers.
In my opinion it is time for a real investment plan for greece, something that is worth the name. In addition I would (FOR A TIME) make them leave the Euro-zone and simultaneously suspend the debt service for let’s say 5-10 years time and if need be support some of their most crucial imports like medicine. This way they would be able to reduce their dependecy from imports, generate growth within their country and regain competetiveness. When they are out of the stormy water they might reenter the euro-zone.
Good points.
But the low-interest, long term loans already given aren’t actually that far away from being a kind of debt suspense.
With a viable prospect of tackling the fundamental underlying problems in place, I don’t really see an immediate need for Greece to exit the Eurozone. It /might/ ease things a little bit, but on the other hand it would incur a plethora of technical issues. Plus a new currency would enter free fall the moment it were introduced, and since Greece doesn’t export much, of what help would that devaluation be? Sure, tourism might profit, but not all that much either – tourists would convert their hard currency to the new soft Drachma or whatever and simply spend less money in Greece – at least with the Euro, that particular problem is alleviated a bit.
Many suggestions -and plans, including investment plans- were made already, but the previous Greek governments were unwilling, incompetent or simply too hesitant to act upon them. And the current government actually thinks it can foist a new fiscal policy somewhere in between Keynes on acid and Marx onto the rest of the EU – not at their own expense, mind you.
Direct goods transfers to circumvent the black holes of corruption and mismanagement might be an option, but if already now the Greeks believe their dignity is stomped upon, how are they going to take to that? That’s like treating Greece like the worst failed states in Africa.
Well, the question would be why?
1. Why after 30 years of EU membership and easy access to capital and reforms Greece is as bad as it is now?
2. Why 4 years ago Italy was also in the same hole as Greece and now is not even close ?
3. Why should we add 40 billion more on top of the last 120 billion ?
4. Why should Greeks not pay taxes ? or have pensions bigger than other EU states minimum salary ?
5. Why should we be ok with people that borrow money but they say we do not pay it back and YOU will pay it back because if you do not pay it back we will make something and you will suffer also ? Is called blackmail. How can you react when your partner goes to blackmail against you ?
6. Yes the creditors have they part of the blame, but are you sure you are not in foul. Did you actually come with realistic proposals that will actually stop the tax evasion and balance the greek budget so they would not have to ask for money from outside ? Who exactly stopped you to make reforms that would help you ?
7. Why do we say poor greeks when other countries had even harsher conditions of bailout and they did it ? Ireland for example.
@ Adrian:
It doesn’t matter how you phrase it, the ordinary people of Greece had nothing to do with this mess. It was brought about by fraudulent Globalisation of the banks. All set up to make the billionaires who benefit from it the rulers of the world. Or, as they like to call themselves, Master of the Universe.
Time to show thsse Masters how they f—-d themselves. Do what Icelend id and jail the lot of them. Those at the top.
then start using your own currency. As the guy above wrote it is all to do with trust. Realise you have set yourself free, use it well, you are after all the instigator of democracy. Syriza gave you that back when they gave you this referendum. They gave you the right to choose and you chose well.
All those scredaming at you are the boys who fear they will be outcasts froma new vision. That is is they who will be on the lsing end and not the guy in the street.
Once again, watch this. There is a way out. Birth is not easy but it is wonderful. If you are afraid to be delivered you won’t thrive. You should be happy, it is your birthday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZOiIOKsS00
It is more than being froom of the bankers and their suffocation, it is being free to change your constitution.
You have a twisted, mainstream view of the issue, and I’m sorry about that… Although the Greek politicians have much to do with the situation Greece is living right now (due to all the corruption and unsustainable social system of the country), the crisis is not product of that alone. Not by far. The bailouts were imposed to Greece! That’s the first point that you miss to understand. It’s the same old scheme of economic imperialism, benefiting big international corporations while removing democratic values and sovereignty from the countries. Impose bailouts and privatize everything, explore their resources for profit and make big buck. Same old story! Only the conservatives still believe that same old crap about the small corrupt country that borrowed money and now doesn’t want to pay. The IMF made over 2 BILLION euros in PROFIT from the Greek bailouts alone! That should give you something to think about…
You have a twisted, mainstream view of the issue, and I’m sorry about that… Although the Greek politicians have much to do with the situation Greece is living right now (due to all the corruption and unsustainable social system of the country), the crisis is not product of that alone. Not by far. The bailouts were imposed to Greece! That’s the first point that you miss to understand. It’s the same old scheme of economic imperialism, benefiting big international corporations while removing democratic values and sovereignty from the countries. Impose bailouts and privatize everything, explore their resources for profit and make big buck. Same old story! Only the conservatives still believe that same old crap about the small corrupt country that borrowed money and now doesn’t want to pay. The IMF made over 2 BILLION euros in PROFIT from the Greek bailouts alone! That should give you something to think about…
The situation is very dangerous for both sides because Greeks are questioning the banking system itself and are against the IMF.But there is no alternative to the monetary system and people need money to survive so the key is mutual interest as always and consensus.Capitalism is not perfect but it’s the best system so far. Maybe social democracy with capitalism is the best possible e economical mixture.
Now its 17
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/26112-an-economic-hit-man-speaks-out-john-perkins-on-how-greece-has-fallen-victim-to-economic-hit-men
http://venitism.blogspot.gr/2015/07/human-nature-demands-nothing-less-than.html
Greece should pay its debt, this is the proper thing to do, but firstly corruption at any level of the state should be stopped and punished, and also tax the rich accordingly, … Greece should take many restructuring measures, in order to be an autonomous and strong economy, but these decisions have a SIGNIFICANT political cost, (they will loose many of their clients – voters), thats why serious reforms NEVER TOOK PLACE.. an examination should take place, about the viability of the greek debt, but thats is mostly wrong decisions made by previous greek governments, willing to give benefits to their voters mostly, by borrowed money…this is the whole truth about Greece, my comment most likely to be erased later…
I live in Greece,i feel the need to inform you that the agreement that we turned town include:Further pension cuts,increment of the taxes on the islands 23℅,decrease the social allowances(further),100℅ payment of the taxes in advance for all businesses without exceptions according with their profits,disestablisment of the current limit at 1600€ for forecloses without considering any social standards(physical disabilities,unemployment,low classes,good will to pay etc),more privatizations.The constitutions turned down proposals as higher taxes for businesses with profit 500.000,increment of taxes at the islands of the “riches” such as,Myconos,Paros etc,no pension cuts but higher taxes for the riches,and instead of increase the taxes of water and power further to increase the taxes for online gambling.They offered to the insitutions equal measures and they insist in austority.Considering that Greece’s economy is based on the tourism,the low numbers of investments the last 5 years,the high level of unemployment 68℅ ages 19-29,the high number of suicides 2 people per day for the year 2014 this agreement was a bullet in the head for Greek people and our economy.European people must understand that we want to pay our debts but the institutions offered a deal that doesn’t show their need to be paid back,you can’t force the people who owe you not to work and demand to find your money.Their offer was nothing else but blackmail to destroy and kill us through an economical war,they asked for earth and water and in our history those who did that got the same answer NO.You can’t kill Greeks without getting your hands stained by their blood,not with one agreement bullet.Although we know that they can defeat us in this economical war,we stood up because if the whole world can’t forget a battle of 300 spartans that died as free men then we hope that 7.000.000 who tried to live as free men won’t be forgotten too.Greetings from Greece
An examination of Greece’s debt has already taken place and the answer is “no”. I agree that restructing measures should take place in Greece, but the answer is not in 300 Euro minimum Salary and pension. Greece has already cut off every expense possible, schools and hospitals have shut down. Only with a haircut of the debt can Greece become a strong economy.
Greeks have still money to pay priests’ salaries! They will never cut that. They prefer not having a doctor or a teacher in the villages but they cannot live without a priest.
.
Of course not, the tax payers of the eurozone will pay it.
The real question is who’s debt will they be paying off next, Italy, Ireland, Spain or Portugal ?
http://news.yahoo.com/eurozones-poorer-nations-hard-line-greece-210706427.html
The tax payers are paying the German banks bailouts, not the Greek people debt. The money that was borrowed to Greece by the troika never actually went to the Greek government or its people. It was straight to the big banks and financial institutions that are raping the country. You need to turn off the TV. A note for you to think about: the IMF made over 2 BILLION euros in profit off the Greek debt alone….
I’d like to ask all the participants of this debate: Dear sirs/madams, doesn’t matter if you agree or not with the Greek referendum as it was put, or if want Greece out or in EU. There are two things to consider. First of all, it is well known that in the past decades Greece had an income from EU countries and individuals from the loans. I want to ask you; If you have in front of you someone who doesn’t work/don’t produce anything, would you lend him money, knowing that you’ll never get it back? Of course no. Greece when I was a child had textile factories, agricultural production and stock-farming. Also an annual income from tourism. As the years went by, most of them stopped for some reasons. WHY? If you don’t produce, then you borrow and of course spend. Also if you give someone money don’t ask him what is going to do with it? Bankers told to the Greeks to take loans from their banks, and without any second thought they (we) did it. ” They dropped the cheese and we took it”. So when all those happened, there’s a big dilemma: or the EU knew where the money was going, and let the things go, like they are today, because they want us to work and be paid like slaves. In that case they must be in gail, because they push a nation to hunger and misery; or they didn’t know what was happening and in that case they are incapable to rule our lives. In both cases dear friends are GUILTY and THEY MUST BE REJECTED. Thanks for your patience.
I want to add something really important to your post. The production tissue of Greece was not destroyed by accident! Just like Portugal and Spain, when Greece joined the EU, it was part of the conditions of joining the union to these countries to stop producing all kinds of products, to dismantle their industry. And why? Because Germany and France, the biggest industrialized central european countries wanted to sell their own products! This is the quotas regime that was established by this mess we call a union. So this didn’t happen by accident. It was ingeniously designed! And the people didn’t saw it because fake cheap money was thrown at them. And cheap and easy money is hard to refuse… it blinds anyone living is this “modern” society.
I do not remember any bank in Greece saying “here are money for free! Come and get it!”. Greeks knew very well what they were doing and hoped they could con the European citizens as they did many times in the past (since 1828 when they got the first loan, and the loan PM Trikoupis took back in 1879 was repaid in 1993-4!!!).
to add further:
….yes, this “ingenious design” has been evolving since Schuman- using David Ricardo’s (1817) classical (liberal) political economy called “COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE” – today’s basis for international trade & globalization (TTIP) & sold by the EC suzerain as our (only) future (paradise).
Effect: it puts (all &) the EU developing countries in a disadvantaged position & all bets on one number.
Further, you might have heard: “If you owe the bank 100 Euros, that’s your problem. If you owe the bank 100 million Euros, that’s the bank’s problem”
Global intelligentsia will- no doubt- recklessly rule the world- if allowed to!
http://www.globalization101.org/comparative-advantage-versus-absolute-advantage/
Enat you should study the real history of the development of the European Union, because you obviously ignore it or simply don’t understand it..
The EU created an artificial debt in ordervto steal the natural resourses of oil gas and minerals of Greece.Take back the toxic and fake debt from Greece.We will not become like Nigeria in order to steal our wealth with a fake loan given to your friends bankers and asked to be paid with the property of the the Greek people .
EUs DEBT from market vultures overpriced bomds..Greeks did not get 1 euro and paid billions of heavy inrerest from their own money.
Just about hits it on the nose. This link tells exactly what happened to the Greek people and how.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-06/who-biggest-winner-greek-tragedy
What happens now? A European arrest warrant should be issued for Mario Draghi, Angela Merkel and other conspirators in this act of financial terrorism attempting a coup d’etat against a democratically elected government in Europe.
Agree with you, Sasa Lunic. Greece was one OF founding members…adding to that Euro is a Greek word! Better reforms in the EU must be achieved,…
NO NEED TO FORGIVING OUR DEBT …. ONLY GOD CAN FORGIVE !!!!! We only want them to understand that we have pay our debt 4 times SO REPAIR THE MISTAKE !!!!!!!!
https://www.facebook.com/122183891285488/photos/a.122184187952125.1073741828.122183891285488/321060611397814/?type=1&hc_location=ufi
And something that i am sure that you dont know…of course lots of our politicians were corrupted in the past…but do you know which company is behind the biggest political scandal of corruption in Greece? Siemens…
A step towards a sort of “Eurozone federation” is the only way out: we need to federate (and cancel) part of the debt of Eurozone countries (e.g. all countries apart from Estonia and Luxembourg have at least 40% debt to GDP ratio) and reinforce a democratic Eurozone Governance (more info here: https://twitter.com/PietroDeMatteis/status/617998916999581696).
The current structure of the European Monetary Union is flaw both economically and politically.
The good news is that WE CAN FIX IT it with a bit of creativity. Schuman used creativity in his Schuman Declaration which marked the beginning of the EU project. Will Hollande, Merkel, Tsipras, Renzi etc together with Juncker and Tusk be able to do the same?
Pietro
—
Pietro De Matteis, PhD (Cambridge)
President
European Federalist Party
Twitter: https://twitter.com/PietroDeMatteis
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/PietroDeMatteisMEP
For someone who claims to be of the 1% top intellect, you are certainly refusing to acknowledge the obvious. Hard to swallow as it may be. But, you are asking a collectively bent group of politicians who conspired to created, with the banking system, a method to fraudulently thieve the taxes and assets of the European people.
Are you seriously suggesting we should trust them to take the initiative to free us all from this robbery. If you are you are being less than naive.
All those in the position of mover and shaker in this conspiracy should be incarcerated and as far away from any kind of public office as we can push them. If even a tenth of the claims we read about in the banking field on the links here are correct, this disaster proves this crowd are unfit for purpose.
Are you expecting them to hand you some kind of back hander for loyalty or something? Or, perhaps you are in with the Mario Draghi group of dancers.
This has to be a joke….
I’d rather promote different parameters with selected countries grouped for a new & better Europe- based on “HAPPINESS”- not on money & might only!
Better explained here: http://worldhappiness.report/ – incorporating “Sustainable Development”
Private property of Greek people amounts to 400 billion euros. So much about poor Greek people!!!
You must be really misinformed or just a troll. Go tell that to the pensioners that don’t have money to eat, that saw their pensions being cut in half, that see their sons without jobs, their grandsons future collapsing.
Greece should stay in the EU due to their cultural heritage, shared values etc, as a “trading partner”.
Anyway, Greece is part of Europe in the map.
But they should leave the Eurozone and the Euro currency.
In fact, maybe going back to the old “drachma” might prove to be a good long-term option… having full control over their own currency, devaluate it, trying to increase exports and getting back to growth…
And in the future, who knows…?
Maybe they can adopt our common currency again, when/if they are ready, in a better situation…
Meanwhile, they should leave the Eurozone/Euro currency, to avoid doing more damage…
Yesterday in the UK was yet another budget to ensure the poorest in our society pay for the wealthy to take more.
OUr Chancellor reduced corporation tax to the lowest known, 18%. His reason he siad, was it will bring in more money for us all, because by paying little or indeed no tax, the big companies will all flock here to employ us,
At the same time he reduced the standard of living of the poorest by reducing any benefits they may qualify called tax credit because they have to work for such low pay the tax payer has to foot the bill to make them able to eat. So, he tells us how wonderful his party is because by taking away this top up of their salary the employer will have to raise the minimum wage to £9.00 an hour, wait for it, by 2020. In the meantime the starving lining up at food banks goes from a million to five million in one quick wave of the hand.
And the bald headed grossly fat clown resopnsible for it stood in the Parliament jumping up in the air punching his delight with a red sweating look of a maniac.
Don’t believe me. Look at this link. Mind you they covered it nicely and the BBC et al went along with it denying the truth of the whole con game they had just sold.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/budget-2015-uk-emergency-live-george-osbornes-speech-in-full-10375825.html
They make me physically sick.
Bail out citizens, not banks. Iceland did that and now they are one of the fastest rising economies in Europe.
If Greece doesn’t know how to balance books, how to live on a budget, and how to share responsability and accountability… well… so sorry…
We can still be friends and have drinks together, move freely and peacefully between our countries etc… but no more common financial/economical projects with you, please…
This ridiculous Greek government,and indeed some of you naive fools, who post on here about how important Greece is to Europe need to to get real.Economically Greece is an irrelevance,it makes up less than 2% of Europe’s G.D.P.The other Euro zone countries should show some courage for once and cut this millstone from around their necks.
It is right on the border of Europe and of strategic importance. This is why it had to be in the Eurozone even though it fell very short of the criteria.
You understand nothing of global geopolitics…
No! Let ghem pass themselvs this probleme!
In the photo, there is a rainbow. Isn’t it supposed to bring good luck?
Greece has voted “No” to a bail-put programme that no longer is on the table. A new one needs to be offered to them. And just for the record, the vote was irrelevant and a pointless exercise because the Greek constitution says that issues regarding the administration of the state cannot be subject to a referendum.
Plain misleading! Is it ‘Europhilian’ (over) eagerness or Nelsonian knowledge?
“If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.”
http://www.news24.com/World/News/Top-Greek-court-rules-referendum-can-go-ahead-20150703
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/03/greek-debt-crisis-council-of-state-to-rule-on-referendum-live
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/07/03/greece-bailout-winds-down/29665099/
I know more than you because I know the polls that get done on Greece every day. 70% of Greece want to stay in the EU and the Eurozone. The Constitutional court responded that is not up to it to rule and that the case should be taken to the High Court. It seems you are misinformed.
Here is the precise response which you can get translated through Google:
“Tο προσβαλλόμενο διάταγμα, εκδοθέν βάσει του άρθρου 44 παρ. 2 του Συντάγματος, όπως και η προσβαλλόμενη πράξη του υπουργικού συμβουλίου, αφορούν την προκήρυξη δημοψηφίσματος και συνιστούν, ως εκ τούτου, κυβερνητικές πράξεις αναγόμενες στη διαχείριση της πολιτικής εξουσίας κατά την έννοια του άρθρου 45 παρ. 5 του Π.Δ. 18/1989».
«Oι πράξεις αυτές δεν υπόκεινται στον ακυρωτικό έλεγχο του Συμβουλίου της Επικρατείας και συνεπώς, η κρινόμενη αίτηση πρέπει να απορριφθεί ως απαράδεκτη. Σε κάθε περίπτωση, ο έλεγχος του κύρους και των αποτελεσμάτων του δημοψηφίσματος, υπάγεται σύμφωνα με το άρθρο 100 παρ. 1 περ. β΄ του Συντάγματος, στην αρμοδιότητα του Ανωτάτου Ειδικού Δικαστηρίου».
And here is the webpage you can find it:
http://news.in.gr/greece/article/?aid=1500009939
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/01/eurozone-greece-rights-idUSL8N0ZH3IO20150701
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/07/09/what-were-the-greeks-thinking-heres-a-poll-taken-just-before-the-referendum/
I agree, humbleness would help you.
………. all irrelevant! It’s DONE (legally) & dusted (move on)! Time to jump of the burning Trojan horse!
Why are some (“democrats”) up in arms about a bit of (Swiss style) direct democracy? Understandably it was a case of a very urgent & far reaching decision to be taken by the “GREEK government in charge”- with no spare time to waste for any anti-sovereign myrmidon bureaucrats & their (questionable) approval!
A great, but small win for direct democracy! VERY annoying for the Suzerain. Let’s wish all Greek folks well for a better, but less corrupted & more equitable dispensation in future! Hope the day of reckoning will follow soon- to call to account all these past corrupt & dishonest (Greek) politicians & their co-opted wheeler & dealers!
You mean, you wish it was irrelevant…
Hi Joe- WRONG! Water under the bridge! Please be reminded, the above (limited) deliberation centered on the validity of the Greek referendum ONLY- portrayed by some as “illegal”! The attempt to justify this illegality by referring to “outdated” articles and a “telephone survey”- (by the University of Macedonia Research Institute, using 989 !! respondents)- was proven inaccurate & soon overtaken by the unfolding events.
This referendum- a rare show of direct democracy- recorded a turnout of 62.5% (EU election were a dismal 42,61%) resulting in a 61.31% NO vote. It still allows the continuation of negotiations with the EU- with an- yet- unknown (happy or not so happy) outcome.
You are RIGHT with your remark about “strategic importance” & waiving EU’s own principles! This only pours more fuel on the flames of the questionable EU enlargement policy, being either poor judgment or driven by an (suspiciously) opaque agenda.
Also…….. “The flames of revenge- Sōma, the battle of destiny”……….. never ends!
EU, I think you are confusing legality with outright political manipulation of the masses… either you are in the group that manipulate or are yourself being manipulated…
You’re also doubting the research of a Greek university (because it doesn’t suit you). Are you yourself a professional statistician? Take up the method followed with the university itself and tell them how they should have done it. And post it here for our own benefit.
There are too many people like you on this debate, that think they know it all but are actually barely literate in political and legal matters. And they think they know all about Greece, its politics and society when they have never lived there…Spare me your nonsense, please…
Forgiving debt to Greeks will create two problems:
1. Greeks will not do any reforms, because they cant. They don`t know what to do now. So, they will vote for populism all the time. Will borrow more and more money, slowly growing un-transparency into all public sector bubble. Neverending story.
2. There will be no chances to keep discipline in other PIIGS and little piggies (Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania etc.) Because our populists start to rise heads to point to Greek goverment – they are heroes, they do not stay on knees. They are greeks, free people. So, governments of other piggies will fall and populists will grew out (Real brave men who is not on knees!) – like mushrooms after rain.
So, sorry Greeks… We need to sacrify you on that Sacred gold bull of eurocoin.
===
Greeks rejected money for their teacher wages, pensions, polcemen salaries etc. It would be right to leave NOW all this into summits, conferences, consultations, negotiations for couple of months.
After shock therapy (short) average greek will understand better what exactly they need to change in theyr politics, govrnment etc. After that they need to drastically cut of expenses of public sector, pensions etc. All this will make dramatic fall of GDP (but `s buble anyway – made by borrowed money spending by public sector people). All this will lead to fall of salaries, so prices will go down too – and that is moment of gold – export will start, export of services, economical activities of real sector will grow dramatically.
For historical and cultural reasons there cannot be Europe without Greece…Europe can leave without countries of the eastern blok but never without Greece in terms of cultural identity…
The question is phrazed wrongly and is patronizing. We do not ask to be forgiven. We ask that you see common financing sense and stop saving Frensh and german banks through us. They have made billions. Not a oenny from thid money has reached the Greek people. Stop facilitating extortionists.
The question is phrazed wrongly and is patronizing. We do not ask to be forgiven. We ask that you see common financing sense and stop saving Frensh and german banks through us. They have made billions. Not a oenny from thid money has reached the Greek people. Stop facilitating extortionists.
https://www.facebook.com/501456643350586/photos/a.501460190016898.1073741828.501456643350586/501477776681806/?type=1&theater
The referendum is not sustainable one of the strangest things about the so-called left -wing government of Greece is refusing to charge taxes its millionaires and billionaires Europeans Greece to stop tax evasion and recovery the money that was asked out of the country Switzerland provided a list of suspicious accounts and nothing happened the Greece rather take money from ordinary taxpayers in Lituania and Malta are making fools of all Europeans and all EU ministers in I just want to Greece if not charge tax then come back to the beginning
This is simply not true. They do want to tax the rich. That was one of the measures that Syriza always said they want to apply. It was the troika that never even mention this possibility, they want to tax the poor, the pensioners, the small and medium businesses.
the image below, shows a nazi-propaganda image againts Jews (1938) and an image of a Greek, from a newspaper from the Netherlands (2015). Spot the difference!
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11039309_759239230868698_4074561814056918928_n.jpg?oh=69564d2cb1a82bfc8ebd3a525f0d9232&oe=562CD105
And this adds what exactly to the argument? Oh… absolutely nothing… ok. Bye
I think what she is trying to say, Joao, is that the Greeks are being treated by the Germans the same way that the Jews were in the War.
I am not going into further debate through facebook. I am only going to say 3 things.1)I agree that Greece has many structural problems.2) i was refering to the cultural identity of Europe which cannot exist without Greece, as even in symbolic terms ‘Europe’ is a greek world. 3) about lazynes chech out this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/16/greeks-work-harder-than-germans-who-knew/ Greece is in the 3rd position while Latvia is in what position?nowhere…
Now here is a piece of information that should worry us all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11727607/Europes-creditors-told-to-avoid-descent-into-uncontrolled-Grexit.html
Why does anthing decision Europe makes or Greece makes, in fact any one of our states make, have to do with the USA? Who voted for their leadership of Europe? Anyone?
This is an eye opener to us all. Take it on board, they are revealing their subjugation of our political control. Did you vote for this?
How would this feel to a US administration? Until they end the death penalty, stop killing people in the street for traffic offences or any other minor matter by their heavy handed police. End their spying on our people without our concent or knowledge as well as bring in gun control then stop interferring in governments they are not part of and, in fact, draw in expansionist horns from our domain, we will not continue with any kind of buisiness with them. Which includes no discussion whatsoever on TTIP or NATO.
See how they love those onions. When unelected and nosy Europeans tell them what they should and should not do in their states they get very excited and become quite extreme in their demands and actions. I wonder why that is?
I don’t understand this post having these spelling mistakes I went over it and corrected them, only to find, when it went up here, they were back to the pre treated lines. Something isn’t working correctly with your computers.
Catherine, true to the ancient metaphor “the blind leading the blind” let me convey what I have observed to beat this electronic beast:
* all spelling mistakes automatically become underlined in red (ever noticed?)
* if you right click the red underlined word- the automatic spell check opens & shows the correct one! Left click on it & it replaces your misspelled word in your comment automatically. (These “coders” are clever!)
* If you leave/interrupt your comment page & come back later- checking or adding something- somehow your old page may remain alive & might get submitted in error- if you did not cancel the comment or close your browser. You can also write in MS word first, than copy & paste it over. Remember: the DE/EU is “always” right.
Amidst all this chaos would like to thank the citizens of EUROPE that stood by the Greeks and their demand for a just and humane Europe with growth prospects
Continue the fight for all European peoples and whatever the result Thank you from the heart
Please don’t refer to political Germany as “Germans”. We as German citizen have no direct democratic influence whatsoever on what is happening.
(we can however strike and sign petitions)
That says something about this union no? “We don’t have direct democratic influence”… what a dangerous project we got ourselves into…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niqrjP1VDeY
Fascistocracy of the rich aryan race and corrupted national oligarchies embezzling money. That’s Europe today. Well done!
@ EU-Reform Proactive:
Thank you for your tips. However, for some reason my browser no longer shows spelling mistakes at all, either with a red line or any other method. My computer, which is state of the art, does not overide the browser. I have tried repeatedly to correct this, unfortunately it will not respond. However, even when it highlights mistakes previously it ddid not correct them for you, you have to do this yourself. Which I don’t mind, as in general, believe it or not, my spelling is good. LOL I know it doesn’t appear that way on here.
Most of the time, it is error from ‘disgusting laziness’ brought on by not having the time, or, more truthfully, the inclinination to read through what I have added. I will make efforts to do better. from now on.
With best wishes, Catherine
We voted “no” and we refused to accept the corrupted politicians who were ruling our country for so long. We voted “no” for a decent solution that respects our rights as people, We didn’t vote “no” to show our disrespect to the rest of Europe but to demand respect as we have shown to Europe in the past.
No save Europe from golden d. Lepen Grillo Britain and all who wants this corporation to finish. And of course from germans who are very disapointed. Europe will be soon…End
Why the only matter is economic and not structural? The latter will resolve many issues. Why money were given with no control over it? A little bit non professional from such s professional organism. I believe Greek people should reform structures and habits. What is happened unfortunately has happened, under the big eye of the EU. Now we have to see will do. With proper control, reforms and development Greeks can do many things. Let’s see the results of another program. Let’s see new politicians in Greece. Let’s see fresh air over the country because people are willing to do a lot.
I am wondering if one could establish a “non-Greek” bank in Athens now. The “Greek” banks are virtually out of business as they hold too much illiquid Greek government assets. (Correct me if wrong.) But what about setting up a Deutsche Bank branch in Athens? Despite the crisis, there is still enormous demand for functioning banking services, in particular imports-exports.
Ott…. are you insane?? How the hell a Deutsche bank is going to improve anything for the greek people? It’s already the german banks that are being bailed out by the austerity measures imposed to Greece. It’s the German economy that was the biggest beneficiary of the Greece crisis. Lets open our eyes for a second…
Greek businesses need functioning banking system, in particular international transfers. The existing banks are out of cash and cannot provide these functions. A healthy bank could, be it German or not.
Banks are close because it was mandated by Brussels! As usual… in this very democratic union we let create. No bank is going to Greece now, either they want it or not. Moreover, only an insane bank would dare to to go Greece in these times of uncertainty, where most probably Greece will leave the union and get back to their old currency…
Joao,
what do you mean “because it was mandated by Brussels”? AFAIK, this was Greek government decision to close banks (cannot find a good reference now but see http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live). Agree, this was related to ECB decision not to give any additional emergency assistance.
I am also afraid no liquid bank will open in Athens now. My post was more like a question: why don’t they do that and can we do something to make it possible.
Ott, the closing of the banks was actively created by the ECB. In the beginning of the year, the ECB cut off direct financing from Greek banks, and instead imposed them “emergency” financing, which is much more expensive for the banks. With no liquidity, the banks have to close. The ECB controls the game, one way or another. It’s a matter or semantics who gave the order to close it. The ECB created the situation after the Greek elections turned out not the way the big bosses of Europe wanted it to be, so the strings started moving to suffocate Greece and its newly democratically elected government. Guess what, it’s working! Siryza already accepted the new agreement (which is even worse than the one proposed before the referendum). It’s a coup, US style. Economic hitmans have done their job, if the people of Greece don’t get control of their own situation, their new government will probably be replaced by some puppet government subservient to troika. Business as usual, it happened in South America in the 80s and 90s time after time, they same players, the same techniques, we are the ones that fail to learn with history.
Raspunsul pentru care crede ca grecii sunt “putori”
GREECE
Because we are a small, poor country full of people with big hearts
Because we never visit anyone empty-handed
Because there is no way to tell foreigners the word “Kapsoura” to properly (burning desire for someone)
Because there is still something valuable in Greek families
Because we always do, even if at the last moment
Because we were slaves for 400 years, but never take this as an excuse for our current state
Because we are scattered all over the Planet
Because we have the word “filotimo” (Honor for his friend?) In any other language
Because foreigners, if they can not find a word, use one of our
Because we share our problems and bad times with our friends and family and not with psychiatrists
Because Socrates, Plato and Aristotle were Greeks
Because we invented theater
Because we gave birth to democracy
Because we discovered logic
Because we made the start in the science
Because we are proud of our culture, not our war
Because when we started to make the Parthenon, the others still slept in trees
Because we have all these lights, which have made efforts to create peace through war
Because we see a difference between “eros” (in love) and “Agapi” (Love), while we feel both passionately
Because Eros was a Greek God
Because we gave the curse “Freedom or Death”
Because we already woven leash than any other are still attracted to wolf skin
Because “Greeks do not fight like heroes, but heroes fight like Greeks” (Winston Churchill, 1941)
Because we gave our ancient alphabet to the Romans and our Medieval alphabet to the Slavs
Because we are not ashamed to cry
Because we dance when we are sad
Because we work to live, not live to work
Because 97% of the star names are Greek
Because if we ‘brother or cousin “on the road every scream turns
Because our churches are not dark inside full of special lighting
Because our parents do not forget that we exist when we are already 18
Because if we want to get a sun tan, we go to the beach
Because we confront every difficulty with humor
Because the Olympics were born in Greece
As we unite with our Olympic light the world and send the message of peace
Because our sky is blue white
Because 40% of the Oxford dictionary consists of Greek wgords
Because we know what “Kefi” (joy in the fun?) Means and how to live it.
…..PROUD GREEK SOUL
Come to enjoy bouzoukia
Nothing to the facts…
RULE No 1: When a country’s debt is not sustainable, should be adjusted to viable levels, according to IMF (and to logic). It’s measures versus haircut.
RULE No 2: The hateful and shameful debt should be deleted, according to the international law (and to ethics).
RULE No 3: Debts created from: a) forced occupation loans and b) war reparations, should be paid immediately when the debtor is able to do so, according to international treaties (and to decency). Germany’s debt to Greece is about 10 bis in today’s value, without interests. With default interest, it overcomes the 400 bis.
RULE No 4: Respect your signature. At the memorandum II in 2012, the lenders were obliged to impaired the debt, when the deficit would was eliminated. That happened in 2014 but the lenders didn’t seem to honour their commitment.
RULE No 5: “…let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone”, according Jesus.
RULE No 6: Always follow rules… except if they are not convenient, according to German partners! ;)
it is a great pity that Europe is ruled by the Germans. I only wish we could fight back. We are bankrupt our banks closed and our future bleak.
Hardly. It is not about whether debt is going to be forgiven or not. Maybe it should be . It is about whether they want to change their life or not.
Greek debt must be forgiven.
@ Alejandro:
All nations debt must be forgiven, for the truth is, it is not genuine debt. It is fraudulent debt brought on by banking casino games played with globalised tax payers money.
In fact, what should happen is, banks should be forced by law to return all the funds they absorbed from the bail outs they took from our greedyl and criminal government and this same money returned to social accounts that belong to the countries they received these funds from.
Additionally those bankers who took this money and paid themselves billions from it, should be incarcerated for the fraud that worked the theft. Additionally, their assets and liquid assets confiscated, including those they passed on to their wives or family members. Crime should never go unpunished or be seen to benefit the criminals in any way. Just as they do with drug dealers and people trafficking.
Apparently, from what I read this morning, Greece is being advised to sue, in the courts, Goldman Sachs for their creative accountancy. If it is good enough for Goldman Sachs it is good enough for all these concerns who played this duplicitous game. Along with the politicians who knew of it and encouraged it.
The tax payers must be reimbursed and their social funds refilled immediately.
Although I fully agree with you Catherine, two problems here. 1- The bank elites won’t ever get exposed in a massive way, sure a few people make it to the news now and then and some of them get eventually arrested and punished for their crimes. But the big bulk of them are safely running the game of business as usual, in part because the bureaucrats that rule us protect them. Actually they do it because they’re their puppets…
2- These big banks have too much money! Punishing them with fines (as huge as they might seem to the common folk) does nothing really. They can just print more money and keep the infinite debt system rolling. And the money assets they possess allows them to hired the best layers for unlimited amount of time. It’s a dirty game… and they have all the resources to win it.
I think the only solution is not actively fighting these people and institutions. I think education is the biggest weapon. If the masses realize the monopoly game they are in… if they are informed of the alternatives, a world without money is possible, managed by rational intelligent decisions aimed at providing the best standard of life technically possible for all people of Earth. The only way I see for this system to change is to create a new one that makes this one obsolete.
It’s barely a matter of people, but of financial elite, wake up : http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html
No
Temporary Grexit ,that’s what needs EU now.In five years Greek economy will rise from the bottom financial crisis.
I think the greek people should NOT be identified with the goverment of Alexis Tsipras and should be kept in Europe and the Eurozone. Greeks voted NO to a manipulative fake referendum where people voting yes were called more or less ´traitors´ by their own president in tv statements he made.
It’s time for Greece to be kicked out from Euozone :)
The biased of the posts on this page are unbelievable; fundamental reform? What your actually saying is that the eurozone is a dying project, doomed to fail from the start (I mean let’s be honest, anyone with any foresight could have seen how a single currency was never going to work, and now those with the foresight are being proved right), but you just can’t admit you were wrong, you just can’t let it go and admit that you’re wrong; whenever there’s a problem that obviously can’t be fixed, your answer is more Europe, more EU, more rules and power… Anything to make sure the EU hangs on until the next time, no matter what the cost (such as the despicable way you’ve treated Greece and its people). Get this through your thick skulls… The Euro was doomed from the start and now we’re seeing why; it is dying, and it should be going quickly, but the constant bailouts, the constant last minute pick-me-ups of the ECB and IMF are ensuring its a slow and painful death rather than the quick one it should be; just shows that the Unelected beauracrats of the EU will do anything to keep their failing dream of an ever closer, ever more Brussels/Strasbourg controlled European state alive, no matter what the costs to the residents of its member states…
Yed
Oxi :)
All this in-fighting between member states and finance ministers is reflecting very badly on Europe and the euro-zone. Angela Merkel has said that she wants the EU to stay together at any cost. However her German Finance Minister does not appear to agree with her. The Eurogroup are saying that they don’t trust Alexis Tsipras, even though he has managed to get the support of the Greek government for his proposals. Greece is on the edge of exiting the euro-zone and the EU(Troika) appear to be pushing Greece more and more towards the exit. Where is the ‘union’ in the European Union? This is not a problem that has happened yesterday. The EU has been aware of this for 5 years. The austerity measures have crippled Greece and now at the 11th hour there is no agreement only further arguing. Is the euro-zone falling apart from the inside?
No they should ask from Britain to pay for the money we spend to buy guns and..more guns to feel safe from TurkIsis and Britains who…borrow us money to….help us to feel safe in OUR land and islands that they threaten us. They kill us and still occupite Cyprus and they help albanians and ucrane ex communists nations. Debts are most and almost GUNS
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?_r=0
Europeans should remember 1953 and the conditions that Europe and USA had given to Germany……. WE know that almost 90% goes to pay interests and helps the BANKS……. Now, Europe is trying to make Greece an example for others countries, like Spain……. WHO choose this liar Jeroen Dijsselbloem to represent the interest of Europe? Or Donald Tusk? or Juckers???? LONG LIVE GREECE…..
No trust in Greece any more, they do not want to pay back and voted for it….
The European Bank forms part of the mafia set up to get as much money out of all of us as possible.
Comme toujours! Les peuples votent NON et les politiciens s’arrangent pour transformer ça en un OUI.
Les politiciens le paieront car le peuple sera toujours souverain et quand le peuple n’est pas écouté dans ses décisions, le peuple va dans la rue et des têtes roulent! Il suffit de voir l’histoire du monde!
Podemos for Spain. Jeremy Corbyn for Labour Party Leader in UK.
This massive money-go-round has to be stopped. More power to the Greek Govt.
WE HOPE TSIPRAS WILL DO THAT WE VOTE TO DO !!!!! AND THAT IS A BIG FAT “NO” !!!!!!!!
– WE DONT WANT THIS EU !!!!
– WE DONT WANT GERMANS GIVE US THE FUTURE THEY WANT !!!!!
– WE WANT TO LEAVE EURO CAUSE THEY HAVE A PLAN TO KILL US !!!!!
– WE HAVE PAY 4 TIMES OUR DEBT AND WE SAY ENOUGH
– GERMANS WANT BAGGERS AROUND (that’s eu) … WE WILL NEVER BE
– IS BETTER FOR US TO STAY AT EU BUT NOT IN EURO
ABOUT ALL REST : STAY WITH YOUR BOSS (GERMANS) AND KEEP BLAME GREEKS !!!!!
Μιχαλης Μιχαηλιδης Xristina Skandalari Radek Otta Χριστινα Πετρενιτη Μαρθα Σκανδαλαρη
Greece played a very dangerous game and now she’s in the corner after a series of bad moves. Greece tried to prove that eurozone countries still have sovereign rights and can still shape and reshape their future in a democratic way, through vote, where each citizen has a say. It seems that’s an illusion.
“Debate” is a pointless concept in Europe as of yesterday. Mr Schauble says so or no, and the yesmen say Yes or No.
Greece must get back Çameria and Janina, Arta , Preveza etc , these belongs to Albania, they were albanian territories till world war two, that must be condition for Greece to give it back the albanian lands and coasts that were stolen in 1945 anyway Europe will make a big injustice. Also Cyprus belongs to Turkey , you must teach Greece that cant make a country with stolen properties.
We vote NO, not to solve debt with more unsolvable debt and adding austerity. We do not want more money off anybody because 90% goes back to the banks and then they lie and say we took all the money. If all countries work like this then we are all going to fail. Greece has gone bankrupt 6 times in history, Germany 7 times. Nobody will remain as they are and with no debt solvency they will suggest WW 3 as a growth solution.
Emilios i live and work in Germany,if Germany collapse we all Europeans Citizens would go broke.We preserve what’s left for us in this bad work market.
UK wont go broke ,sooner were out of the EU the better .Roll on 2017 big party in UK then.
I know you really want to be full of yourself, but the reality is: Germany is already broke! Just like all countries in Europe. In this madness of economical system where every country owes money to others… everyone’s broke! And if Germany goes broke, flowers across the world will still bloom, food will still grow, babies will still be born, love and war will still do down, Bottom line, why do we keep letting these elite psychopaths ruled us with the money tool when it’s probably the worst and dumbest way to manage a society. We don’t eat money, we don’t build houses out of money, money doesn’t cure diseases, nor makes us happy. Resource Based Economy. Lets open our eyes….
Is it time to fundamentally reform the Eurozone? – Absolutely! It is time to review its expansionist ideas. Time to review its VISION and its MISSION in life. It is time to set some OBJECTIVES and its INITIATIVES in many areas. It is time to reduce its fiscal burden on its members. It is time to review its “new member admission process”. It is time to review the way it looks at its own citizens. e.g. a target of 75% full time employment by 2020 is not solution!
Should the ECB extend emergency support to Greek banks? YES, it should! The lenders were as guilty as the borrowers in this mess. Let us not forget that! The Eurozone as guilty as the previous Greek government. It is a new government trying to solve a problem created by those who came before. Let us give them a chance!
Is it time to fundamentally reform the Eurozone? – Absolutely! It is time to review its expansionist ideas. Time to review its VISION and its MISSION in life. It is time to set some OBJECTIVES and its INITIATIVES in many areas. It is time to reduce its fiscal burden on its members. It is time to review its “new member admission process”. It is time to review the way it looks at its own citizens. e.g. a target of 75% full time employment by 2020 is not solution!
Should the ECB extend emergency support to Greek banks? YES, it should! The lenders were as guilty as the borrowers in this mess. Let us not forget that! The Eurozone as guilty as the previous Greek government. It is a new government trying to solve a problem created by those who came before. Let us give them a chance!
Greece played a very dangerous game and now she’s in the corner after a series of bad moves.
ECB must extend solidarity to People but not to his bad Bank System.
Might be an idea if they extended it to the Baltic states as well. Our people earn between half and two thirds of what the Greeks earn, yet our counties seem to be growing.
Here’s an idea: holidays in Greece to help the local economy. http://www.visitgreece.gr
Should ECB keep playing on and gamble those virtual resources? Offcourse they should. Or change the whole damn system, that’s a much better idea.
Speak English Emilios you’re pathetic.
.
The Euro is fatally flawed, the only way it can be saved is to spread the wealth from Northern Europe to southern/Eastern Europe, which Germany will never allow.
‘European Solidarity’ is nothing but a federalist pipe dream.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11731694/Brexit-vote-could-trigger-European-free-market-chain-reaction-say-Swiss-and-Icelandic-MPs.html
Emilios you’re an intelligent person.How can I fight for right to equal economic conditions as a Romanian in this globalized European economy?YOU tell me!I’m listening.
Thanks for the. Compliment
Νο they should not
Greek people knew exactly what they were voting for.. NO to austerity that has suffocated the Greek society..!!! The thing is that even now that “the masks are off” and everyone has admitted that the austerity has failed big time and that the debt is not sustainable, they won’t change it! They are still hitting us and ignore the people’s voice!! Where is democracy? Where is the respect we supposed to have for each other? Where is EU in all of this?
That is the real question! The NO and the YES are not so important but what s next. Tzipras seems not prepared at all. The destiny of his people is in his hands. Hope i m wrong…
Emilios bitte give me an logical argument and I would appreciate you!
Democracy is in Greeks decision of keep on spending other peoples money with no intention of paying it back. Upon such democracy…it’s acceptable that people in other countries use their democratic elected politicians to say “oxi” to such behaviour.
Respect is in accepting to pay back the money you requested (no one forced loans to be requested to EU)
EU till now…is desperate to obtain a proper answer for your (another) money loan. And as any loan (at least in normal societies), the bank tells you how much you can get and the price of it. And then you adapt. Either you accept and in order to maintain your payment you cut in beers and coffee or you say no…and have no money!
Europe is much worst than America. Can you imagine an american state killing another one? California, for istance, against New York? If Greece gets out, i don’t want to belong to this Europe.
Look Emilios I am concerned about Greeks future too,but I can’t see an solution for the moment but the exit from euro zone.Time will heal the wound.You know better than I do,you worked in medical field don’t you?
It looks like there are only comunist, whos like and write comments here…
Greeks created this fairy land, with its laid back atmosphere, which people came in great numbers to experience. It’s this that they came looking for (together with crystal clear skies and sea). This relaxed atmosphere was possible with money just given (not really earned with hard work) and spent gayly. Had Greece had a different ethic, it wouldn’t have been attractive. .
Everything is not money and finances. Since the classical era of ancient Greece, peploe should stand for virtues: freedom, democracy, honour etc.
I agree with you.For me Plato gave us a model in his book Republic
.
The only role of ECB is to support the banks of the Eurozone, if it stop’s supporting a member of the Eurozone then it is no longer a central bank but a punishment tool of Brussels.
Keep in mind https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QKMLow7w5kg
the fact that Germany and their allies practise such vengeful politics against my country, is something that should concern all Europe. other victims are due to follow our example…
Some Greeks express themselves emotionally and speak in terms of basic values, such as democracy and trust, but which they haven’t really honoroured. Even this referendum was a manipulation. They have a very manipulative political system, which they have in the past followed getting a lot of kick backs for their loyalty, a system that took them straight to where they are now, facing angry european countries and expecting loathing and lynching. Bottom line is they got what they deserved.
I feel strongly compromise should be reached by the both parties. Trojka needs to make some concessions and understand that it is partly responsible for the situation and Greece should adopt and implement viable reforms. The greek situation should lead to fundamental reform of Eurozone and all of the Earopean Union.
It is about time for the EU bureaucrats to understand that We The People don’t want this kind of Europe. We want an Europe of nations in peace at each other, working together but keeping their sovereignity. Yes Greeks deserve and should be helped. They deserve it more so than the banks that we’re all paying for their recklessness.
Albania is a dedicated Atlanticist country Ivan Burrows
Yes Offchurch
I’m als angry that no one mention that by a grexit the depth Greece have will multiply as the local currency is getting devalued. That also includes the local people and not only the Greek government.
The baptise kids Clinton, for God’s sake!!!
Germany and others must relicensing that a grexit is more expensive that a depth cutoff and keeping them in the euro zone
No, give them what they want, a bankrupt country.
Turkey Katrin Mpakirtzi is a fellow ally, important for NATO. Russia should be your concern. If you see things differently then NATO EU is not your family…
Perhaps they should leave europe and nato and sell an island to russia so they can put nuclear missiles.. Ok, this is not really what we want, but when your so called friends treat you like this you should fundamentally think about your future. It seems that europe does not exist and does not have any working vision about how this unity should deliver solutions without 3 months of drama. Nowhere in the world would such a problem be treated in such a wasteful way. Just the twittering is a disgrace.
You voted NO for your parliament to turn into a YES
Fundamental reform in the eurozone… A dream yet to come true.. Because big interests are involved and big headed politicians, putting their reputation and personal interests above the common good of the eurozone and its citizens.. Varoufakis has quit.. When will Mr. Schauble..??
NO BLACKMAIL.
Its time to stop austerity
Your blind greed will lead to the destruction of your financial system, DO IT :)
What happens, Merkel and Schueble force Greece out, leading to the EU falling apart, Europe being divided, rule by chaos is Warshingtons game.
……………it proves one thing: put rats, chickens and foxes in different enclosures until they become totally assimilated. We need a different EU constellation.
Just give the keys to the Germans and switch off the lights on your way out. Goodnight solidarity!
Grwece the most ungrateful of nations. So much money, so much help, so much attention given to this country for 70 or so years, and they screwed up, anyway, and they curse all other european coyntries
AHAHAH you know so much about history as I do about sowing my friend. What about when the Greeks forgave Germany their huge debts after the war? Not to mention the war reparations that were never complied by Germany. And you dare speak about ungratefulness? You show that you know nothing about European history, economics or geopolitics. Turn off the TV and read some books, it might help you get out of that matrix..
USA and the EU benefactors of Greece, yet so hated
Now Greeks are looking for a new patron to get money and to mickey mouse with taljs, more talks and more talks: Russia. But Russia doesn’t want a corpse that she would have to maintain
You show a lot of ignorance to the whole situation… but… not even going into that.. Russia already told that they are open to help Greece., just for your information. It’s would be a huge strategic mistake not to…
two questions and to both the answer is YES! #EUisus
Dino Boy Mican Dont be redigulous! Stay away in your hole!
Yes. The whole European Union. It should be like in the USA. The Greek debt must be forgiven and deleted under certain conditions.
Homolytalan kormány
Emilios Grigoriadis you go to a tavern and eat greasy stuff. That’s what you are best at.
Chris Mantas with this kind of attitude, this bigotry, this arrogance, looking down on other countries, you ended up like this. It’s like pay back time…
Ivan you live in Europe but you don’t have anything in common with it.Sorry but you need to go back in Victorian Age where you belong!This is an new era mother fucker.excuse my language.you deserved this
No Dino Boy…you really dont know…GREECE IS RICH COUNTRY, we have all we need…water,sun,islands,Mediteranian sea,islands,oil,vegetables,good weather…GREECE IS PARADISE…and for these reasons everyone wants my country…we are slaves in poor loser europeans….WE DONT NEED YOU NEVER! GO HOME NOW!!!
LISTEN TO THIS
W E D O N T C A R E !!!!!!!!!
we stop care about Germany , we stop care about eu
We don’t care anymore cause we see that all eu is full of SHEEPS !!!!!!!
I reed everything here and I see people speak because TV say it !!!!! THEY DONT KNOW YET THAT THIS TV THEY WATCH BEHIND IS GERMANY (like still is in Greece)
THEY DONT KNOW THAT THEY FOLLOW ONE COUNTRY THAT WANT TO RULE ALL EUROPE AND THEY TRY 2 TIMES WITH WAR AND ONE NOW WITH EURO !!!!!!
NOONE THINK WHY ENGLAND IS OUT OF ALL THIS ????
NOONE THINK WHY GREECE HAVE PAY 4 TIMES THE DEBT ???
NOONE THINK WHY WE OWN MORE THAN 2009 ???
SO I CANNOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE GAP YOU HAVE BETWEEN YOUR EARS !!!!! USUALY THERE MYST BE A BRAIN …… USE IT !!!!!!
Let’s wait and see! Greece is in a very strategic part of Europe it should not go in the wrong hands…..
………….meaning what? Should that exempt the Greek government from their obligations to repay any contractual borrowings? Weird moral & logic.
What wrong hands are that exactly?
Maxie why don’t you tell us,stupid Europeans,US Public debt is financed by Federal Reserves?Give us a lecture about how that works in a market economy?Or about China -USA balance?
Is time for germany to leave ue and euro. And it’s time for democracy over autocracy
Now Greece is blackmailed to change opinion asap. Threats and blackmails are the corner stones of EU “democracy”.
Why should they pay to the ECB and than the day after receive the money back from ECB, so that banks can receive interests ? What a silly merry go round. And why is it generally accepted that poorer countries pay higher interests than rich countries ?
Try, go to any lender or your own family with your payslip and explain you intend to spend 180% of your monthly earnings- on something bringing no return- without the intention to ever repay it. The following month you do the same again! Will your family be happy & lend you more & more! Does THEIR RISK to ever see a penny of their money increase or decrease?
And not to forget:Tell us what happened with local administration in Detroit we want to know how it works with government spending.
If we do not help Greek citizens, why we should help migrants who never participates to the European Union…
Really it would be very hard to understand for any citizen not doing business with those migrants…
It was an analogy to the government irresponsible overspending
The Eu must set the directions on all Finances if Eu, and decide which kind of development we want (not what we need) Germany knows the game and wants the Chinese way cheap labor and huge exports, the American lobby(Greece is there) wants the high consumption, Europe to have mostly services and entertainment, I say we need a sustainable model balancing production and consumption first within the Eu and leave the globalization for later on,,,
…………the EU is a monetary union not a fiscal one! The EU debt restriction were set at max. 3% debt to GDP in a year- did you ever stick to it? Can Greece think for themselves? Greece has full sovereignty over its finances- but totally “blew it”! Greece needs to be put under judicial management! It seems you ask to become a serf colony of some sorts?
My friend globalization it’s a fact not an wish
And the future is of your own making, not written in stone.
We want Germany to leave euro..
……….why? …………and thereafter what? Should it not rather be the other way around?
I want everyone to leave the euro and EU
Lets admit the euro is a badly designed mistake. Now lets all be grown ups and start creating the best tools available to end this madness and ensure the peace and cooperation between all European countries.
Greece voted no to austerity and wrong measures which were imposed by the eu institutions -a fact that was confirmed by the latest IMF report.Greek people voted to enforce their government negotiations for a sustainable agreement but never to go out of Europe.Europea is an idea born in Greece and there is no Europe without Greek civilization.There must be found a logical sustainable agreement between Greeks and eu institutions.Moreover,it’s obvious that Europe has taken a fictional trajectory under the German hegemony and has nothing common with the federation that was invisioned after the II World War,Europe has lost its primar values ,about solidarity and piece and has become a technocratic timocratic morphoma.We need a transformed federal Europe.
A stronger banking union might be a way to go. For the Greek economy to start moving again, one has to re-vitalize the banking system. However, currently the banks hold too much almost worthless assets (Greek govt bonds) and should be bailed out somehow. I can envision the following steps:
First, there should be no such things as “Greek” banks. Let all the banking rules be set by European Parliament and ECB, not member states. All banks should be able to freely operate through all the Eurozone.
Now you can either bail out Greek banks and ensure they do not buy too risky assets in the future (as the rules are created by ECB now), or you may let “Greek” banks go bust and replace these by other well-functioning European banks that can operate in Greece as easily as elsewhere.
As a side benefit, one will also be able to use the same bank accounts across all the eurozone, not a separate one for each country.
Might something like this be feasible in near future?
And that’s when the fascist regimes start once again ruling…. You are out of your mind. The European political project is failing since day 1 and you want more of it?? Can’t you recognize this is a mistake and we need to end it before it ends us? Lets start thinking of a European continent without a political union (which was never wished by the people of Europe, it was imposed in the first place), lets create free agreements just like countries such as Switzerland and Norway have with Europe right now (while not part of it), lets cooperate and keep the peace in the continent. Lets be grownups and admit our mistakes, not prolong them.
I propose a solution to the banking crisis. You express your feelings, I don’t see how your slogan “The European political project is failing since day 1…” will help to solve such issues in the future.
The future does not include a banking union based on a further political and economical integration of this failed project. That’s how it is connected. The solution, and this is not a proposition anymore, its just the only way out that we have left, is to let the Mediterranean countries leave the union, get back to their old currencies (and finally get control over them), devaluate, restore their independence, their sovereignty, their lost democracy, and create a little hope for a brighter near future. Let the banks bust if necessary. It’s not ideal, but much better than more promises of fake loans to keep bailing out German and French banks while imposing highly dramatic austerity measures, privatizations, social services destruction… all in the name of the same good old business as usual. After Greece, the house of cards will crumble, there’s no doubts over that anymore.
I am confused – with this discussion … – is it true that Greece has borrowed a money from EU – or it is NOT true ??? Why the loans were efective in Portugal, Ireland, Spain … etc ??? sorry I am not bussines person just ordinary citizen from small EU country ….
Germany did took a loan from Greece or not?why they dont pay that dept?
oki – so now is clear – Germany took a loan from Greece … ??? daxi ??? I do not know – just curious ???
ECB should extend emergency support to Greek banks.
It is the time to fundamentally reform the Eurozone
……………….why? In return for what? Time to reform both- the EU & Greece!
Europe is built on the Greek Values !
maybe,………..but, “any of these values” were ditched into the sea- and lost- by a string of re-elected Greek governments & a majority of their politicians- not so?
Now we are laughing…
Romania passed through an similar period in 2009,we are alive?Yes.Greek people will get through too!
Europe needs its own currency, under democratic supervision and management. Not one lend by one of its member who retains ownership through rules.
……..confused? It has and is called the Euro since 1999 & ‘democratically’ managed by 19 Euro members & the ECB. Greece adopted the “Euro” in 2001, Did you miss all these years?
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/euro_area/index_en.htm
Greece must through all this and suport it (greece sight) with good structure, metres, negociations deal, proposals
Now before the town become mad max scene
greece can never produce, and recover unless they
– exit euro
– voluntarily learn, and apply the rules of free market economy
Of course the ECB should extend emergency support to Greek banks. The future of the entire European Union hangs in the balance. How can anyone expect good decisions to be made against such a backdrop of uncertainty and fear? Someone needs to speak common sense to power. The threats and demands of the Eurogroup are staggering in their audacity. They effectively demand that Greece return to a situation prior to the election of the Syriza government in January – a government we, the Greek people, elected on a mandate to renegotiate the crushing and ineffective policy of austerity and restructure unsustainable debts (even the IMF now endorses this) IN ORDER TO REFORM our country. If the Eurozone is unable to recognize this and instead prefers to keep flogging a dead horse, then perhaps, yes, some fundamental reforms of the EZ are called for too.
Now Schauble’s head explodes.
Tell them NO too
What is surprising me is that between the intragigent countries to GreekAid there are countries which where in the past under the Soviet regime. These countries received a considerable financial support from the EU along the years and consistenly under the PHARE and ISPA prograns to align their regulations, standards, policies etc to the European ones. At the end of the process they where not ready to enter to the EU at the 1st of May 2004. It was a political decision to make them members of the EU à part entière.
No, let the banks bankrupt !
if you have the balls,we go right now in bankrupcy right now and watch the domino effect….but thats an extreme patriotic stance….
Idiocy Knows No Borders
——————————————
I as speaker of the Board of the European Economic Integration & Governance http://www.eeig.net have been a fervent supporter of the yes vote and the belief that Greece must stay in the eurozone.
The last two days, and after the Greek government achieving a historic parliamentary support to get an agreement with its international lenders, Greece is faced with extraordinary demands from Germany and its satellite state of Norway. Mrs Merkel in supporting the idiotic demands of her finance minister Herr Schaeuble and making the statement that Greece may stay in the eurozone but not at all costs proves only one thing … That Germany has decided to destroy the European Union for it is only certain that if Greece makes an exit others will follow soon.
I hope that the other 18 members of the eurozone will stop the German idiocy and like Varoufakis’ exit it is time for Schaeuble to exit too. We had enough of idiots running the economies of Europe and playing dirty games on whole constituent nations.
Dear Mr. Speaker,
“People don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.”
One never hears or reads in the press about that Greece’s political leadership or their supporters seriously & HONESTLY ever admitted their dismal failure in “astutely” managing their country- rather bashing & blaming others! The lack in moral & ethics of previous Greece’s government is well known & should probably have been addressed in separate deliberations by calling for a sort of truth & reconciliation conference first.
One contributing factor to the Greek corruption culture was eliminated when the German “deductibility of bribes” as business expense (paid to foreign recipients) was implemented on 31st December 1998- 16 years ago!
A hypothetical test: Compare EU Member Greece’s entity with a ‘private company’. It would have been placed already several years ago under judicial management or business rescue- by now under liquidation & up for sale! Probably, only the Chinese or maybe Google may have enough cash to buy a bankrupt Greece state- lock stock & barrel!
The myriad of EU treaties are no insurance & make no provisions for any “enforceable judicial management”. If they had, it would mean the EC/EP had to appoint a Judicial Manager and later a Liquidator on behalf of the Greek government to either oversee or manage this country or wind it down! That would have raised serious objections!
The issue of trust in any organization is of vital importance and forms a major cornerstone in ANY union of sorts- entered into willingly by equal & sovereign members. Therefore, the present EU is questionable & incompatible of the forgoing parameters and in need of a rearrangement. One option would be to select & group members in a more modern & advanced order of their overall social & economic achievements (limit up to the 50th global position) as explained here: http://worldhappiness.report/
If it ends the EU then that’s a good thing.Save us voting on it in referendum.
if 18 countries follow the rules of the euro zone and try to have the finaces ok, why should the greeks have special rights and benefits?
Antonio, in which world do those 18 countries followed the rules? You are greatly misinformed. Even Germany didn’t achieve the grow levels imposed by treaty a single time. France and Italy (among many others) didn’t comply with the financial requirements for entering the EU. Rules are made to open doors for the psychopath elites that designed this failed project to drive us all into poverty and scarcity. Conspiracy theory? Look around you….
if 18 countries follow the rules of the euro zone and try to have the finaces ok, why should the greeks have special rights and benefits?
this is a fcking economic war.the paradox is that germany should not exist after they’ved done in ww2,but still…………….they are rullin’ the entire europe’s economy.next will be in greek’s situation all the other countries except germany,england and other few
this is a fcking economic war.the paradox is that germany should not exist after they’ved done in ww2,but still…………….they are rullin’ the entire europe’s economy.next will be in greek’s situation all the other countries except germany,england and other few
The forget an other way they some countries in that area have taken that’s never was in the euro zone.
That means having the euro but not a, ember of the eurozone. That would be the only possible grexit that can be handled with out to mutch customers for the small people
The forget an other way they some countries in that area have taken that’s never was in the euro zone.
That means having the euro but not a, ember of the eurozone. That would be the only possible grexit that can be handled with out to mutch customers for the small people
If I was Mario Dragi I would send them enuff mouse to fix this crisis on permanent basis.
Of course we should
GREXIT
EURO_EXIT NOW
if in greece the government was the right party, we all do not speack about this issue
yes why doesn’t the eu recommend a plan.
What should happen is Schaueble should be stopped from wrecking Europe further. #ThisIsACoup
We will use law 120 of the Greek constitution.
Greeks are positioning to let Russia take over. And wouldnt expect any less from a wierd party coalition , made out of extreme right and left wing. Dont worry greeks keep voting no , Putin is smiling ear to ear while you go further in the pit , and he gets closer to passing the gás agenda.
tout le travail reste à faire : réforme profonde de l’UE sur tous les points qui créent la crise permanente (structurelle) et syphonnent l’économie réelle de tous ses états : sur la création monétaire, sur le système de dette aux banques privées, sur la gouvernance financière hors contrôle et qui domine le politique, enfin empêcher l’évasion dite “d’optimisation” fiscale . on a juste gagné un peu de temps et paré à l’urgence, mais aucun des problèmes de fond n’a été ne serait ce qu’évoqué, et encore moins résolu .
Νow….#ThisIsACoup
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No.
.
They are being forced to take a credit card to pay off a credit card that was paying off a credit card.
One EU diplomat said it was tantamount to turning Greece into a “German protectorate”, stripping it of more sovereignty.
There is no unity in the European union.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/13/us-eurozone-greece-twitter-coup-idUSKCN0PM14Q20150713
No, no and no!!!!
GREXIT TODAY!
The first reason of Greece debacle is the corruption factor linked to burocracy and clientelism ..more or less like Italy . Now … to overcame this barganing situation specially among Greece end E U both the part must agree basially onone factor : put the Greece in condition to reach in a certain number of years the standards of the other european countries .. Greece cannot fail in reaching these standard becouse should know that “Budgets out of control, high taxes, bureaucracy are the different sides of the same coin: corruption and tax evasion.. Corruption in a country and in the companies have the same effects of hard drugs on humans .. At the beginning in humans the drug makes them dream, make them thinking they can achieve incredible performance, make them thinking to dominate others and then slowly bring to make them incapable, reduce their will , until makes them disappear .. https://www.facebook.com/pages/New-Politic-and-Economic-Thinking-Independent-Government-Agenda/323797087665968?ref=hl
Νο.
The Greek Prime Minister has agreed to implementation of policies that previous governments did not do in the previous 5 years – OPPORTUNITY for MT OLYMPUS VENTURES. Global Investors need to move quickly and fund MT OLYMPUS VENTURES to take advantage of Greek Privatization Program that commences in 3 days. Greece will legislate prerequisites for Privatization of Greek assets till Wednesday 15 July- are of interest to MT OLYMPUS VENTURES. Investors and Fund Managers of the World – Invest in € 300 billion Mt Olympus Ventures investment project in Greece and the Global economy .MT OLYMPUS VENTURES is the tool that will assist GREECE in meeting its Eurozone Goals and Objectives to the benefit of all Greeks , the Eurozone and the European Union, cleansing Greece in the process of all past stains that brought it to this current predicament, which will result in a polished finish that is sparkling and dazzling to everyone .MT OLYMPUS VENTURES is the SOLUTION that will assist Greece in meeting all its Eurozone objectives to full economic recovery , which is to the benefit of everyone in the Eurozone, the European Union and the Global Economy. MT OLYMPUS VENTURE is the BRAND NAME of the Greece of the FUTURE, which has just arrived into the present. Lets make it happen. – https://twitter.com/olympus42
No, the Greeks should demand a full write-off.
Yes. Europe should be together not split!
This has been a huge failure of the euro zone. The masks have fallen and the whole world saw them for what they really are. Gangsters with countries in their hands.
No. It amounts to a hostile take over of Greece by Germany.
OXI
yes
There was some good that came out of the deal 1) there is money to stop Greece going bankrupt , 2) Greece will not be exiting the euro-zone. However there is a lot of resent over this deal in Athens. This will be very difficult for Tsipras to get this through the Greek government. As anyone who has been following the EU summit on Twitter will know. If Greece does not implement the reforms this week then the alternative is for the country to leave the euro-zone, but it does mean them handing over control of their finances to Germany. This means that there is now a lot of ill-feeling towards Angel Merkel and her finance minister. I think that there will be a lot of resentment towards the European Union and to the agreement not only in Greece but across Europe. Will the Greek government agree to this. No-one knows. Tspiras will have to use all his skills to get it through.
No it should not accept it. Especially if it is a possibility of debt relief and not even something for sure. Democracy in Europe has died. Vengefulness and financial Nazism is the new deal.
ΟΧΙ
ΝΟ
#ΟΧΙ #GREXIT #ThisIsAcoup
Which “possibility”? A possible possibility?
BY BY ,what was left of democracy , the Banksters just took over greece in a coup….!
Its a bad day for all of us….
Well yes but also shows every other European state what the EU is all about.Just made Uks referendum alot easier for us to leave.I’m sure the Greek people will rise up like Mr Farage has suggested regardless of what the Greek Parliament decides.Greece said NO upto them now to show the EU gangsters NO means NO.
Let’s end this EU farce now,save us ending it in 2017 because the UK will leave.
No!
We are discussing a reality that doesn’t have anything to do with European Union anymore.
Of course they will. The minimum bad is the best , our ancestors used to say
The debt, the money, is fake.
GREXIT!
But mutual black mail not deal.
No!
Νο
On the road to development.
62% vote … FUCKING NO !!!!!!!!
no
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, let’s assume you say “no”. Does it mean that Greece will never repay the debt? That after oveborrowing and overspending for years now it says: thank you for the money but we will never give it back and we won’t do any reform. In the real world, this is called bankruptcy. Nobody will ever give Greece one more cent (certainly not Putin, unless he gets something in the return, maybe the Greek oil company).
No choice
I think that the Greek Parliament does not need your piece of advise.
Respect is crutial and Europe should re-learn that democracy and national sovereignty are concepts to implement within our borders. Thanks!
The devil’s alternative?
Yes definitely
You don’t expect to borrow money and not pay back! Of course yes! You even getting help!
Austerity is good for the banks, which caused much of the financial melt down, remove them from power, and the wealthy, there is the solution.
ΝΟ WITH ANY WAY !!!!!!!!Alexis Tsipras agreed to a miserable agreement and proved a political swindler. Asked the NO Greek citizens in the referendum, the people voted NO to 61.3% before eight days, and Alexis Tsipras them sold. Alexis Tsipras cares only for his political survival and thinks he has a future. It has not.If there is any sense of honesty to executives of SYRIZA and ANEL, this government must resign.
Otherwise, it will prove another paper the system of oligarchs that will shatter but now embrace them and celebrate the new Memorandum.
The government has no right to sign this agreement miserable.Should resign before signing.
Otherwise, they’re all politicians crooks.
Citizens should not be disappointed.
We as property 61.3% eight days ago.
This 61.3% is not partisan. It is from citizens who want their dignity.
Alexis Tsipras lost dignity. Perhaps the lost and his companions SYRIZA.
We will continue to fight.
We start from the Constitution today at 19:00.
I will be there.
This agreement will not pass.
We not signed.
No to euro, No to bullies, Yes to stay in the EU and the unions and Yes to Democracy, not a dictatorship
Not too bad for Tsipras et al in Brussels. He managed to split the eurozone, getting support from break away leaders (who made a new block alienated by german stubbornness) and so a Grexit was averted (for the time being). Not too good for the common folk back home, though. They will have to adhere to a very very strict memorandum. Unless they don’t stick to it, in which case in 3 months time, more of the same nerve racking negotiations with banks shut…
Why not Europe pay every money Greece needs without reforms ? And in the next 6 mouths the some if the Greeks need? And I would like to do the same !
no
No.
They will vote yes.Nea Demokratia was allways voting for those reforms.Pasok will do the same.So if Tsipras manages to get half of his peeps to vote yes,which is very likely cause everything else would brake Syriza in pieces then the reforms will be accepted
Deal or no deal, voted by parliament or not – it is very unlikely Greece will be able to “implement” anything (be it the most favourable “deal” ever).
yes
Greece has dignity, culture, freedom and democracy in addition to natural resources that the entirety of Europe does not have, and she is being led to slaughter by the Germans and EMS in order to rape, pilage, plunder and disgrace the proud Greeks. Regardless, the money, Greece was set up to fall by the likes of Goldman Sachs, Soros, Papandreou and gang, Samaras and gang. Now Tsipras is handed a gun to help them genocide the Greek people in order to be the example for others in the EE, and the cost is sovereignty of the country and selling off all assets!!! THAT is CRIMINAL, don’t you think?
I shared, and You?
Please help us, share the proposal of european referendum to GERMAN EXIT FROM EUROPE FOR 5 YEARS.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/GermanExit-Euro-Referendum/870761612998835?notif_t=page_new_likes
@Maria……………& I care!
The belief & trust in the PRESENT EU fabric has become questionable! This union is in need to be either reaffirmed or rejected by ALL 28 Members afresh (not only by one, or as a protest or punishment) in an urgent IN/OUT referendum. Too much hinges on it- carefully considering to maintain & preserve Europe’s economical, political & global stability. Alternative options need to be discussed, and available by those who have chosen a different road before a formal (painful) breakaway.
My choice would be to consider shrinkage to similar & somehow equal & sovereign remaining members selected from the happiest European nations. It is decided annually according to laid down performance criteria’s by a neutral panel and not biased politicians. Some might call it a “two tier” or “multi tier” union.
The first 15 qualifying Members would be INVITED to join an advanced & superior trading block (not a social straitjacket union)- based on the: http://worldhappiness.report/ (the “philosophy” behind- to be carefully studied)
They would be:
Switzerland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Luxembourg, Ireland, Belgium. United Kingdom, Germany, France.
The rest has to work harder and use their own initiatives to progress towards a happier nation to qualify- no time limit set!
aahaha work harder to join? No one wants to join any union anymore. Actually, most countries were lured into joining this mess we call a democratic union. Lured with false promises and easy money. Moron and corrupt politicians fooled their own people into it, once fooled themselves. I just hope after the break up of the EU we are mature and strong enough not to let the outside powers, the corporatocracy and the financial elites led us into a profitable war for some. Business as usual…
……….hey Joao, don’t become ungrateful! Remember, in my imagination you received your full sovereignty back and your free choice what to do next! I chose to be part of a newly negotiated European trading block (read & study carefully!) starting with the 15 most “happiest countries”. Should you however be Greek- than of course- sorry, you are still very unhappy & a long way off- making only position 102- just behind “Swaziland”- on a scale of a total of 158 globally.
To fulfill your dream to be able to make it alone in this world- I sponsor you with a one way ticket to Daniel Defoe’s Más a Tierra having only ~859 inhabitants- you might even meet Robinson Crusoe there!
ahahaha ok you just made me laugh now. I’m not Greek, but my country is quite unhappy too (Portugal). Anyway, any happiness union that has its door closed is just another tool that creates stratification. I want happiness for all, not just for a close club. Enjoy it though!
EU Reform—why do you want to make the new union based on happiness? It does not have a clear unique definition, and it is individual, not collective measure. Will I be able to join if I am happy despite what the others around me do?
Please study the FULL report first- sleep over it & read it again & think it over! Come back & criticize it & suggest if there would be a better- non political produced alternative on the horizon- what would it be? It is not my report but it is a worthwhile -not worthless- effort to be supported.
It is not be understood as a “personal state of happiness” but a reflection of the well being of a whole country- measured scientifically- incorporating the future global best practices in ALL respects! NOT decided by blinkered politicians & co-opted global selected interest! Again: http://worldhappiness.report/
“The report is published by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network (SDSN). It is edited by Professor John F. Helliwell, of the University of British Columbia and the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research; Lord Richard Layard, Director of the Well-Being Programme at LSE’s Centre for Economic Performance; and Professor Jeffrey D. Sachs, Director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University, Director of the SDSN, and Special Advisor to UN Secretary General Ban ki-Moon.”
Joao, this type of “happiness” is for all- earned by the collective in each country! (READ it pronto! ) Every block (EU, BRICS, Euro, UN etc) are unions or groupings of certain interests & are all “closed clubs”! Even you’re Primeira Liga FC Porto or SL Benfica do exclude handball players & wine farmers!
My offer of a one way ticket stands! Pity, you lost Angola & Mozambique and Columbus discovered America already!
I’m going to read the report, you managed to get me curious. I’m not the kind of person that likes clubs, open or closed, they always create barriers, get people apart, even with such shallow reasons as the ones we see in football (which is the kind of organized sports I can’t less). We didn’t lost Angola or Mozambique, they were never ours on the first place! I’m a citizen on Earth, I don’t even live in Portugal anymore and I rarely introduce my self as Portuguese. Again, countries, football clubs, even music styles, all are viewed by today’s society as property, as a mirror of the definition of ourselves. Not for me :p Anyways, are you aware of the Resource Based Economy system?
All positive! Joao, your mentioned resource based economy feeds into sustainable development https://www.thevenusproject.com/en/about/resource-based-economy
and forms part of the same efforts & goals “to achieve a better & happier global world!
The task is huge & long term! The exposed political “design failures” of the current Euro/EU should be turned into an opportunity to START to correct & reverse these obvious wrongs. One also need to be careful not to get stuck in too much futuristic talk only- but use realist opportunities to change directions whenever they present themselves. A bold re arrangement or multi tier EU would be a sensible begin.
Go well & good luck- my batteries are now exhausted!
I think we are walking in the same direction ;)
I was part of TVP, that’s the link I was going to send you in case you never heard about a RBE.
I’m reading the report as we speak!
Look luck my friend, and recharge!
No. Because it´s no deal.
The people said NO to austerity, and Germany says they do not care what the people voted or want. That sounds dictatorial to me! Germany is insulting the other “partners” to the EE by dictating terms, conditions, and wanting to disrespect and punish Greece for standing up. That is a very good Greek thing, the rest of Europe needs to stand up and stop being intimidated by mentally unballanced people that want to destroy and peoples and nations of Europe so that they can rule ALONE — that has always been Germany’s shortcoming.
You take ~ 85 bn. at a good % interest rate….!!!. Most will go to pay dept…..The rest better use them wise is THE KEY!!!!…xaxaxaxaxa….. Take it or deth is the scenario yet!!……See you in 3 years looks Dynamite type of deal!!..xaxaxaxaxaxa
Possibly the most ironic thing to come out of this disgusting stitch up in Brussels is that Tsipras, and his Syriza party who were voted in on a promise to end austerity,will now under this agreement have to instrument even more draconian measures than the discredited New Democracy party refused to implement.For Greece this really is Death by a thousand (austerity) cuts.If the Greek people don’t rise up now and demand that their government quit the Euro and default on their debts,then they are as pathetic and spineless as the Euro zone leaders think they are. #ThisIsACoup.
Say you have two counties, one highly industrialised with impressive manufacturing capability and thus higher productivity and the other without. In normal economics the currency of the former would rise to the extent to make trade possible. Without trade restriction the later would under sell the former and the nations would become more equal. Industry would grow significantly in the later. Now if you tie them in a currency union and you fix the minimum wage you have fixed the market. The money will all flow to the highly industrialised country. It will continue until all the money runs out and the country fails.
Others have slowed the inevitable failure by being highly patriotic and buying goods on purely nationalist terms. We have a Europe where in France by a significant majority you only see Peugeots, Renaults and Citrons, in Italy Fiats and Alfas, in Spain Seats (it is harsh but true). The Euro is devastating for a good European like the Greeks or the British and a slow death to the rest. As to why Greece did not grow before the Euro, do you know how many non-German cars Germans buys?
Alex, currency of the poor country getting cheaper is just one way to adjust. Alternatively, the wages in the poor country may fall, or rather, start from the low value in the first place. This is what happened in Baltics where the local currencies were pegged to Detsche Mark (and later Euro) already in early 1990s.
It works if you do not overvalue your currency, and do not borrow too much.
Ott Toomet, as I pointed out wages cannot fall due to the minimum wage. Did you know Germany buys Greek Olives, transport them to Germany and make it into Olive Oil. The minimum wage makes the Greek version expensive, this couple with the desire in Germans to purchase the German brand and the lack of investment in Greece means the situation will not change. Dropping the wages will not work when the the worker are already paid the minimum, but feel free to make other suggestions.
Alex,
you mean German productivity is that much higher that it cancels out the current wage difference?
Devaluating a currency is also a way to lower the wage (albeit with different implications). Why cannot you lower the minimum wage in the first place?
Anyway, if you want to live well, not just adjust through poverty, you have to increase the productivity, you need education, technology, credit.
Ott Toomet, the minimum wage is set by the European Union. Germany will never allow Greece to have a lower minimum wage as it will give the Greeks an unfair advantage. The the rigged system coupled with strong patriotism (nationalism) in European countries means the Eurozone will never work. Unless the nationalism can be over come I fee the whole European project will come to an end.
Agree with your last sentence :-)
Pardon my ignorance, but AFAIK the minimum wage is determined by member states (and some do not have it at all). But feel free to provide references if I am wrong.
The minimum wage is not set centrally, but if you lower it in Greece many of the low skilled by bilingual will leave. They will move to countries with a higher minimum wage. Germany needs immigration due to its falling population and has a relatively low population density. Interesting Angela Merkel is against any form of migration controls include stopping speculative welfare migration. As a country Germany is quite willing to have inbound speculative migration, in the hopes that many will eventually contribute to the economy, or at least their children will.
Dropping wages is not the same as devaluation it has other issues; you just hit the poorest members of society and I am not convinced it is a good answer. I do worry what will be left of Greece as its commerce has all but gone, next many of its population will be forced to leave. The will just be left with land, but without people or commerce what will become of it?
No!
As much as I am not in favour of what is being done in Greece, I must admit Greeks are being quite hypocritical about the situation; they constantly complain about how the eu ect are being unfair to them and making them suffer, but they cannot forget how they also bully their neighbours, even putting an enbargo on a country and imposing a veto on a neighbouring country for it to go through what greece goes through everyday. I mean they try to say they are communists but this is just for convenience as they are quite nationalistic. To answer the question, NO.
Alex, we will all leave the euro in a few years, because the euro project is doomed since it started. It was badly designed, it was imposed to the European population, removed democracy and sovereignty on all countries that joined, created an economical prison , rising levels of poverty, unemployment, unhappiness, etc. Germany will, as I see it, be the last country to leave, since this project was built for them…
George i understand perfectly what the EU project is and i think most level headed un-blinkered Europeans do too now.But i have to say that you being a Greek i cannot understand why you would support a faction that has basically taken over your country.I find your response to the crisis of your country both disappointing and more importantly extremely cowardly.
I only hope the other Greek people are made of sterner stuff because the EU most certainly is not the answer for your country and the sooner this unfolds the better for you.
To me Tspiras has sold you and your country out well and truely get ready for the job with the EU when he gets removed .
As far as the ignorant bit ,no real need for that because i think now the weakness of the euro zone and EU in general has been exposed it will now unravel.You should leave while you can.
I think it is a bit unfortunately that the EZ is governed by member states, by finance ministers whose main job is to work for national governments. This is partly what creates claims like “Germany thinks this” and “France says that”.
Perhaps a separate body, directly elected by member states but not involved in their politics, would work better. Now we could say that “parliament” (or whatever you call it) thinks this or that, avoiding national labels in this process, and in this way also lessening the antagonism between people.
Agree with this comment. It is time for proper integration or the next time will be truly out.
I could not disagree more the last thing I want as a British citizen is more integration we want less.
It’s amazing how you can still want more integration in this madness. I really would like to honestly understand the reasons for that. I would also like to add that the majority of the people of Europe never had the chance to say no to this union. And the ones that did say no, even in legal referendums, were blandly ignored, or had to vote again until they got the right answer. Ask the people now if they want more integration. I don’t think even Germans want it now, and this whole union worked out pretty good for their economy!
Because more integration here might avoid the current schism between nations (like Greeks vs Germans.) It may also be a lot faster and efficient decision-making mechanism if the agreement is not subject to approval by the national parliaments.
But I agree that more integration is not a universal answer.
Well, I do see your point, but that’s in a perfect democratic union. And that never existed, by the contrary. So I cannot by any means agree with more integration. If it happens, I’m pretty sure it will be enforced onto the people of Europe, and that will only lead to more chaos and social unrest.
The answer is simple, Germany must leave the Euro.
Well, people did say yes to Europe through representative democracy because their governments said yes. The referenda even if they were perfectly legitimate were not legally binding, because EU membership and treaties are subject to parliamentary ratification and it is down to politicians to decide if they want to take them into consideration or not.
In terms of more integration, the problem with the Euro is that there is a monetary union at the moment without a fiscal union and this is what is making the whole thing impossible. Germany, of course, does not want that because it is making more profit under the current arrangements. However, the EU should be for everyone and not just certain countries’ benefits, so, I agree, if Germany is not prepared to share the benefits as it would if there were a fiscal union, it should depart or, otherwise the countries that are being disadvantaged under the current arrangements are going to depart and the EU will fall apart. Greece needs to look into the alternative in getting out of the Eurozone: if things are going to be better or worse, and depart in an orderly way and not in the act of suicide that Mr Tsipras’ government was taking the country down that was going to have an impact on common citizens that have worked hard all their lives.
George, having referendums that are in no way respected regardless of the legalities that make them legally binding or not (witch is just so convenient to have a democratic tool that serves no purpose because it’s strangled by a law designed and enforced by an undemocratic and unelected group) is just the mirror of the “union” we allowed these controlling elites to build.
Greece will leave the EU, the UK will follow and the rest of the Mediterranean countries will do the same. I just hope that happens in peace and not war. Although war is what these countries are under for over a decade already, not one fought with bullets but one fought with euros and laws written by bureaucrats in Brussels.
Joao, there is an elaborate legal framework about what is legally binding and what isn’t, which is called constitution and is complemented by more ephemeral laws. Constitutions of countries are the result of years of experience and common understanding/agreement about the direction that people want their country to go in. So, in terms of the EU, it could not exist if it contradicted the constitution and the laws of a particular country. It would not get voted and ratified by the local parliament. So, even though I am not a legal expert, your claim that the EU is anti-democratic, stifles democracy etc…might be a very popular statement these days, but it is contradicted by factual reality and common sense. Now in terms of referenda, constitutions of countries are also specific about what can be put up to a vote in a referendum and what cannot. The reason for this is that people can’t understand the implications of different laws/actions and they do not have the (insider) facts that would allow them to make an informed decision. In the case of the Greek referendum, this information was withheld from people on purpose. So they were simply asked if they wanted a specific bail-out programme or not, but it was not explained to them that without it, the country would be in an disorderly bankruptcy and would exit the EU, and that the poorer members of Greek society would be even poorer. So the referendum was completely pointless and it cost the Greek state money at a time when saving should have been a priority. Also, in the UK referendum people are being asked to vote if the country should stay in or out but nobody can say clearly what is in the best interest of the country. People are just being bombarded with random information that is not accompanied by numbers/facts, is partial and often emotionally charged. Both referenda are 2 perfect examples of populism overriding actual democracy.
The idea behind modern representative democracy is to elect people that represent and promote your interests and then they vote in parliament on your behalf. And then from there onwards is just a matter of respecting the will of the majority, in truly democratic fashion. Now, dearest Joao, it happens that so far the majority has wanted to be part of the EU. In a democracy that should be respected. Otherwise, the mob is taking over. The mob is the biggest threat to democracy.
I would also add that the decisions, democratic or not, must fit into physically/economically realistic framework. For instance, a few years ago NC legislature banned (democratically) that one must not use predicted accelerating sea level rise for coastal planning. Basically, it told the planners that you have to ignore physics.
The Greek referendum was a bit similar, but from economic point of view. No-one wants austerity, sure, but sometimes you simply do not have a choice. One should have offered two _realistic_ alternatives: we can go either this or that way, which one do you prefer?
You say you’re not a legal expert, but you sure seem like someone involved in legal aspects. My point here… EU is a undemocratic union in many senses. 75% of the laws in my country are written by people that I did not had the change to vote on, and even worse, I cannot vote out of there. If this is democracy… I’m Santa Claus. Representative democracy is, in its core, easily corrupted, it’s driven by personal interests in a society that actually promotes these behaviors. I want direct democracy, not representative. But this is not even the issue here.
The Greek referendum was a big BS because Tsipras was in bed with the European institutions even before the referendum was held. He betrayed the Greek people. You are obviously pro-EU so your perspective regarding a Grexit is much different from what I observe. Even though a Grexit would be a bit disastrous in the first year or two for the Greek people, I strongly believe (and the social situation of the country for the past 5 years under imposed austerity are the proof) that more austerity measures imposed to Greece will completely sell the country sovereignty (the little one that is left) to its creditors and big banks, will completely rape for profit all the public services that were before off-limits, will impoverish even more the poorest people.. it will bring the economy of the country to a complete collapse. You can only expect social arrest from this…
A Grexit will be harsh. But it will give the Greek people the control over their own fate, something that they were stolen of in this “democratic” union. I wish the Greeks to rise above their leaders and act. I urge them to prepare a way out, to return to their old currency, devaluate and start public investment in the country once more. Create jobs, give people a way to make it through. Maybe be more bold and implement an Unconditional Basic Income system, like some countries are strongly thinking of doing.
All of us really need to start thinking outside the box. The EU is not the future. It’s not inevitable. It’s not indestructible or our savior. Fortunately, the euro-skeptic movement is rising like never before, mainstream national political parties are being crushed one after the other… the majority of the European population already understands that this is not working and are starting to look out for/demand alternatives. Don’t expect this union to exist anymore in 10 years. Actually, I don’t even believe that it will still stand in 5 years. Maybe it will, but only with 4-5 countries left in it.
BRICS is now up and running, capitalism is digging its own grave at a fast pace, the dollar as reserve currency is finished, the world is changing in a fast pace, and this union, and this euro failed project have no place in it.
So long EU… may your soul rest in peace.
George never have I heard sp much rubbish in my life;the mob is the threat to democracy that’s quite funny really
.The mob as you put it are the majority now and we will leave the EU I personally cannot wait,may even throw a party.
João,
I agree that EU suffers from a democracy deficit. But I am not at all sure abolishing it will make it any better. Many “made in Brussels” economic decisions originate from various free-trade agreements. A lot in our life is decided by (even less elected) Microsoft and Google instead, and “sovereign” governments still have to appease markets, investors and militant neighbors. Outside of EU, Greece still has to reform it’s economy and to conduct consistent economic policy, and probably cannot get any loans for long time to come. There are too many problems we cannot easily address without even more integration at global level (like climate, refugees, or terrorism). How would you approach all that by simply dismantling EU?
Joao, I hope you find the place where they have direct democracy, perhaps some commune somewhere in the desert…You have your won ideas about a Grexit but in the end it is down to the Greek people to decide what they are prepared to go through. And I can assure you that a big percentage of them that have worked hard for their savings absolutely want Greece to stay in the Eurozone. People that have nothing and would like to see others be as poor as them are the ones that want to exit the EU. A lot of the ones that I know have actually moved to Greece from Palestine, Syria etc, third-world countries. That’s not what I, as a Greek, aspire to for Greece. And just for the record, there are elections for the European parliament every 4-5 years. It is not how you say it.
Stephen, that’s what ignorant fools do: they laugh at what they don’t understand. I hope you enjoyed it.
George i understand perfectly what the EU project is and i think most level headed un-blinkered Europeans do too now.But i have to say that you being a Greek i cannot understand why you would support a faction that has basically taken over your country.I find your response to the crisis of your country both disappointing and more importantly extremely cowardly.
I only hope the other Greek people are made of sterner stuff because the EU most certainly is not the answer for your country and the sooner this unfolds the better for you.
To me Tspiras has sold you and your country out well and truely get ready for the job with the EU when he gets removed .
As far as the ignorant bit ,no real need for that because i think now the weakness of the euro zone and EU in general has been exposed it will now unravel.You should leave while you can.
Stephen, I am not aware that the country has been taken over but that would not necessarily be a bad thing. The reason for all these financial problems is the corruption and incompetency of the Greek governments that allowed the debt to triple in 8 years and Mr Tsipras has turned a slightly growing economy of 2% to one in recession of 4% and that is just in 6 months he has been in office. And the people have to pay the bill. He has opened new state-owned TV station, in addition to the ones that existed, and is employing his voters in them, he has given public servants an extra day’s paid holiday etc, a lot of businesses have moved to Bulgaria, as they mostly trade with the EU etc. So, if Frau Merkel were prepared to run Greece, I would personally welcome her. A agree that the Eurozone project has been a failure and the EU has lost its way, but there is the way to deal with this and there is a mechanism of coming out. In a democracy there needs to be an open debate about this and an informed decision, as opposed to the conspiracy of Mr Tsipras’ government, their nasty negotiation tactics and the sudden bankruptcy that he almost brought the country to. There is a reason why you need to have a citizenship to vote and you need to have lived a certain number of years in a country before you can have the citizenship. Things are not what they seem so no need for someone British to tell Greeks what to do.
George, I was going to write a point by point to your reply to my comment, but after your last comment I realize that you know very little about the true reasons Greece is in this situation. You think that corrupt politicians are the ones to blame. Well… think again. Corrupt politicians are only the puppets in this game.
Recommend you to read: http://www.globalresearch.ca/greece-the-one-biggest-lie-you-are-being-told-by-the-media/5460508
and: http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-fascist-capitalism-functions-the-case-of-greece/5462072
and very interesting (and revealing) numbers here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-imf-has-made-e2-5-billion-profit-out-of-greece-loans/5460608
Just two more comments:
1- The European Commission is unelected by the people, I cannot vote out those ones can I? And don’t tell me that they only propose acts and laws because every single piece of legislation that they vomit out of their offices ends up being the law.
2- Direct democracy is not fully used in some countries, but close to that, you don’t need to go to the desert my friend… And if we keep being these zombies that live our lives agreeing with everything that is thrown at us and accept it as the only possible reality… than we already lost the game. Actually, we don’t even deserve to win it.
3- The only reason for the Greeks to want to stay in the EU are mainstream media pro-EU propaganda and the money issue. If you leave the euro your life savings will be cut short. True. But if money alone is the reason for you to want to stay in this union, than you’re representing everything that’s wrong with it. And with politic will and economic strategy, that specific issue might be easily bypassed.
Joao, I have had enough of people making excuses and defending corrupt politicians making them sound like they are some kind of innocent little kids beyond any responsibility or blame.
Thanks for the links you are posting. However, they all are from the same website, which says it is independent but is actually an anti-globalisation website: it’s got its own aims and goals and I cannot help but question its own objectivity. One of the articles is not signed at all and they are all full of half-things said and inaccuracies. There definitely is a consistent rhetoric that is going round out there in an attempt to exonerate Greek governments. However, I know people that have worked in very high positions in big financial institutions and they are all unanimous that the Greek debt is the result of mismanagement by the Greek governments. In the case of Ireland they say that that was the result of banks’ actions. I think that those people’s opinions are more accurate than the random stuff going round the internet. One of things constantly being said is that the Greek bail-out is saving banks…which banks though? The National Bank of Greece lost a lot of money in 2010 or thereabouts, so effectively, that is the Greek state. And banks run on people’s deposits. If they collapse, it is ordinary people that will be affected, as well as the whole financial system and the economy. So, banks are being bailed out in the public interest. This is poor information that is being spread out there and with all due to respect but you have to be at least a little bit ignorant to believe it. At the moment Greece owes other EU countries and the IMF, not banks. Back in 2010 RBS as well as other private banks wrote off the money that Greece owed them and proceeded with redundancies in the UK to make up the loss. This is how business work. But it is not exactly how it is being made out by the Leftist people that governments have been saving banks and that banks are the nasty perpetrators of the Greek tragedy.
The Eu Commission might not be elected (I will take your word on this) but then if it makes no decision but just drafts up proposals, why should it be? It’s got no powers. Do you elect the advisers of your national government? Do you even know who drafts up your national laws?
I would like to know which countries are those that practice direct democracy. Please, could you let me know?
Joao, money does matter to people because it is the number one factor affecting their living standard. If you want to live in poverty, that is your prerogative, but you cannot impose this on others or hope to live off the money that has been made by others with their hard work and savings. The EU is not only about money. It also defends the rights of common citizens and I am glad that it was there to save us from Tsipras and his nasty gang of mega-rich people that enjoy playing the Marxist part on the back of other people’s money.
ΝΟ WAY….
It’s time for us all to live within our means
NO
Yes..
ΝΟ!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Greek-Tourism-is-solidarity/1142056429143689
For those who are supporting the European People’s Party and Alliance of Democrats and Liberals for Europe: The Greek goverments that brought the Country to that international-debt Situation have the responsibility and the new Greek goverment began a fair review.
no the Greek parliament should not accept those measures..this is a coup…this is a humiliation for one country…i am so disappointed with the EU…this is not Europe that s for sure and secondly once again Germany will make people suffer…..It is unbelievable that they didn’ t take their lesson from the past!This is not democracy but a nazist union! I hope our parliament will not accept these measures and the whole nation is ready to face the fear of the exit…Better independent rather than slaves !!!!
I agree all the greeks are getting is to be a German/EU protectorate.Mark my words this is going to end very badly maybe even civil war in Greece.
Kris,
what do you mean with “nazist union”?
The perfect war soup is being cooked once more in Europe…
NO WAY out !
#OXI !
http://www.accidentalsocialist.com/?p=77
The EU(Troika) gave money to Greece knowing that there was no way they would be able to repay it. in return Greece promised to implement reforms which it did not do. There was wrong doing on both sides and now the Greek people are paying the cost. However the way the European Union handled this crisis this weekend was disgraceful. Greece was totally humiliated. The European Union showed itself for what it was – not a democratic union but a Europe that was dominated by the banks and financial institutions (Troika) who were prepared to do anything to protect themselves. This was very bad for the reputation of the European Union and showed the rest of Europe what kind of regime they were living under.
The main problem is the currency…
It works great for the Big Countries with their good economy, bur for all the rest is terrible.
It could work only if Europe was like the US.
Greece will never be able to pay back…
Europe is not the US and it will never be. Nor its people want it to be. So the comparison is not even applied as far as I’m concerned.
out!!
.
How many more reasons do you need to leave the EU ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11737286/EU-demands-Britain-joins-Greek-rescue-fund.html
.
How many more reasons do you need to leave the EU ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11737286/EU-demands-Britain-joins-Greek-rescue-fund.html
It must
Where are the corrupt, the incompetent, the unconscious politicians who created this mess in the first place? Over the past few decades? Why are thy not being called to answer a few tough questions? Like – what did they do to the money that the Greeks are now having to pay back?
Is the desired message, to the leaders and politicians of the world – get elected, plunder, make all the mistakes you feel like, favor your close friends, and then leave incognito without any repercussions? Letting the people of the country pay for your conscious and unconscious errors?
That is a very bad message for the future of the Earth!
Although that happens until a certain degree.. something that you seem to realize is that the money of the Greek bailouts never actually went to the Greek people. That money goes directly to the its creditors, to bailout the German and French banks. That’s why this debt is a farce, and a highly planned one.
Where are the corrupt, the incompetent, the unconscious politicians who created this mess in the first place? Over the past few decades? Why are thy not being called to answer a few tough questions? Like – what did they do to the money that the Greeks are now having to pay back?
Is the desired message, to the leaders and politicians of the world – get elected, plunder, make all the mistakes you feel like, favor your close friends, and then leave incognito without any repercussions? Letting the people of the country pay for your conscious and unconscious errors?
That is a very bad message for the future of the Earth!
Ο Χ Ι !!!
The people of Greece have spoken. The parliament people did not listen. The European Parliament people did not listen either.
Hey it’s the Euro Zone that not listening, not the rest of Europe, and certainly not the English. We even started a crowd funded campaign to help to “kick start” the economy (albeit in a small way) See: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-crowdfund#/story
if this is europe keep it fr yourself….http://time.com/3956017/greece-bailout-selloff/i
Yes, by any means. The measures requested are overdue and should have been applied decades before. Nevertheless, this is not excusing the behavior of some member states in the EU before and during the discussions.
The deal is very good if Greece implements it and if Europe helps
Yes for sure! And while Europe is rethinking its structure Greece will be able to renegotiate the terms of reforms!!
*you DON’T seem to realize
YES! For democracy and people’s dignity!
And lose even more sovereignty? Of course not. I still hope Tsipras will do the right thing.
Of course NO!
Nooooo
And the rich will get richer and the poor poorer!
Only with a substantial debt relief and more money for the economy dedicated to groth and with german compromise to p