Diversity_17-WelfareTourismThe British government is currently pushing for EU rules on freedom of movement to be changed. Prime Minister David Cameron worries that generous welfare systems are being abused by workers travelling from poorer countries to wealthier ones, bringing along their families and draining public finances. The specific details of EU reform are vague, but are rumoured to at least partially strip welfare entitlements from recent EU migrants. But do the figures add up?

The available research (see here, here, here, here, and here) suggests that EU migration is overall economically positive for host countries. EU migrants are more likely to be in employment than nationals living in the same country, and economically non-active EU migrants represent an average of less than 1% of the population in each EU Member State.

To give you some of the facts and figures around so-called ‘welfare tourism’ in Europe, we’ve put together the infographic below (click for a larger image).

But is even one ‘welfare tourist’ one too many? We had a comment sent in by Tarquin, who said he accepts that only a relatively small percentage of EU migrants come to the UK to abuse the benefit system, but he feels that even a small percentage is too much. Why should even a small amount of abuse be tolerated?

To get a reaction, we spoke to Martin Kahanec, Scientific Director and Research Fellow from the Central European Labour Studies Institute (CELSI). He argued that making life more difficult for EU migrants in an effort to crack down on welfare tourism would be a case of ‘cutting off your nose to spite your face’:

kahanecWell, there are albino anacondas, but that doesn’t mean that all anacondas are albino. When you are making migration policy, that policy should be targeted towards the overall group and the mean or average within that migrant population. And what the data shows is that ‘welfare tourism’ is essentially a myth. There are certainly some migrants that will tell you they are here purely for welfare benefits, but the vast, vast, vast majority of economic migrants in Europe are not driven by welfare benefits.

The research shows that EU migrants are net contributors to public finances, so if we discourage migration within Europe because of a small number of cases of abuse, then we will perversely be doing much more damage to welfare budgets than is currently caused by welfare tourism.

We also had a comment sent in by Paul, arguing that excluding recent migrants from access to benefits would amount to unfair exploitation of workers:

citizen_icon_180x180Why should Member States be able to take economic advantage of migrants and be allowed to shirk their responsibility to provide social welfare to individuals living within their borders? Social Europe means all European citizens should have common rights – economic and social.

Given that EU migrants contribute more to public budgets than they take out, does Paul have a point? What would Martin Kahanec say?

kahanecI very much agree with Paul on this, and I think freedom of movement is a key principle of the European Union. Certainly it has a political dimension, but it also has a very strong and important economic dimension, and freedom of movement is very helpful to Europe economically.

Migrants provide the EU with a layer of population that is very, very mobile, and these migrants go precisely to where labour markets need them, and to sectors and occupations where their skills are otherwise missing. So they enhance economic prosperity in Europe, and on top of this these migrants are net contributors to public finance. So, to exclude some of them – and precisely recent migrants, who are the most mobile – is counter-productive. They go precisely to those sectors where they are most needed, and so their contribution to the receiving countries economies and public finance is positive, and I do not see any reason to exclude them.

Are EU reforms needed to crack down on abuse of welfare systems? Or is so-called ‘welfare tourism’ a myth? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!

 

IMAGE CREDITS: CC / Flickr – Manuel



325 comments Post a commentcomment

What do YOU think?

  1. avatar
    Harald Heidegger

    Welfare tourism exists. Eg. in Germany everyone can get welfare without having worked for it. That’s part of the problem. All EU-citizens have to be treated equal, so if a member state installs welfare without access restrictions every person in EU can move there and get it. I think the best solution (after having a common social system over all EU) would be that a person sticks to the welfare system of the state of his birth.

    • avatar
      hans van veen

      Agree, but as the problem with the EU excists when You work in one country and leave for another country, there are to many differences, mainly taxes.
      The politicians believed in 2002, the EU citizens would move more through the EU, comparing the EU with the USA. Which is proven useless, in many ways.

    • avatar
      Kay kell

      Your quite right at the expense of the British tax payer and naturalised citizens

  2. avatar
    Paul X

    Of course it exists, people certainly aren’t queuing up to enter the UK for the weather are they?

    • avatar
      Steve P

      agree totally paul,sick of it sooner were out of EU the better

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      You will simply weaken the fabric of Britain. For instance, Britain has not trained enough British nurses and doctors for decades, so now needs unBritish NHS workers to fill in the gaps.

      Don’t delude yourself that those numbers will change. Get tough on migrants and be prepared to wait for months before seeing a GP.

      And by the way, the continent is pretty sick of this British whining about anything and everything. Your PM won’t get nearly enough with the treaty negotiations to satisfy the Eurosceptics. So just leave and rest in peace.

    • avatar
      Daniele

      In fact weather sucks. And still here we are to work. All of the people I met in Edinburgh coming from abroad are currently employed, covering jobs locals cannot or will not cover, producing wealth which is also used for paying the benefits that at the present I have found being mainly devoted to locals. Is there the reason for which of 60% of Scottish are against Brexit and about 50% agree that if they should get rid of someone that should be England? Who knows. Anyway, I totally agree that we should put an end at foreigners taking advantage of subsidized expensive services paid with the taxpayers money and often if not always refusing to integrate with locals. Like UK 3rd age migrants on Costa Brava and Costa del Sol. See, Paul, if justice was done I bet more britons than EU nationals would pay for that. That is why I am looking forward the outcomes of Brexit which is a suicidal nosense who might make Britain small again.

  3. avatar
    Carolina Muro Rosa

    I agree that the system should be adjusted, and be the same everywhere, so everyone can claim the same way in any country. I also disagree with people being able to claim for help on a welfare system for which they have never contributed to. This should not be based on your state of birth, as one might have contributed more in the country that they are living than in the country were they were born. But once you are in a country and have worked and contributed to its welfare system, than you should be able to make use of your contributions just like any other citizen, otherwise is exploitation.

    The UK should be watched as their speeches on EU migration are instigating xenophobia. Cameron has delivered a speech instigating employers to employ British families before employing other citizens. This is not just about the unfairness of benefits tourism, it’s a country ruled by aristocrats afraid to loose their identity more than anything else. By making statements like these, even though by law EU citizens cant be denied work based on their nationality, the employers will think twice before employing non British, and it stops being an equal system of opportunities. They want to be in only for their own benefit, but are in strong disagreement with the basic ideal of EU. To concede to their pleads is to mine the whole European project.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Carolina, definitely some mixed messages in your post…..

      “I also disagree with people being able to claim for help on a welfare system for which they have never contributed to”….. this is exactly what the UK is concerned about !!

      “it’s a country ruled by aristocrats afraid to loose their identity”…not sure about the aristocrats bit, but does any country want to lose it’s identity? I don’t think so

      “They want to be in only for their own benefit, but are in strong disagreement with the basic ideal of EU”……….we contribute more that we get out, but yes, most are in strong disagreement with the EU because it was not the EU we agreed to join

      “Cameron has delivered a speech instigating employers to employ British families before employing other citizens”…I don’t believe he has, but I would like him to

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Hope they do employ British instead of foriegners ,why wouldnt they British jobs for British people

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      You’re not guaranteed a job simply because of your nationality these days, Steve. You need to try and be good. See employers are sick of people with your mentality. They want somebody that is going to make an effort and care about the quality of their work. Perhaps that’s why the British miss out. The good ones don’t though.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Yvetta what planet are you on. we have to be good and how much do you know about the british workforce,probably nothing just talking nonsense.The simple fact of the matter is that foriegners get bthe jobs because they will live in a house with 10 other people and work for peanuts ,and causes damage to our economy because British people dont have as much money to spend.Also foriegners dont spend any of the money they earn in our country either.
      The employers arnt sick of people like me because of our attitude ,they just want others because there cheap simple as that and as for standard of work most of what ive seen its shoddy at best(Building Trade) so that arguement doesnt stand up either.Sooner were out of the EU the better.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Yes, I have worked alongside Brits, Steve, calling sick every other day, leaving early because of I don’t know what etc, and expecting a big salary as soon they come out of Uni. I have also known Poles and Russians that are happy to start in a super market until they can get something better, even though they have graduated from medical school. There was an interesting programme on Channel 4 about this issue, It showed a fish factory in Scotland which mostly employed Poles. It could only afford to pay the national minimum wage and no Brit would apply. They only hired Poles because they were the only people that applied and one of them had progressed to become a manager at the factory. The locals said they wouldn’t go for the job because it was manual and it paid the same as benefits, only that you don’t have to get up early to receive benefits. Then it showed a strawberry producer in Yorkshire that only employed Eastern Europeans because he said that they picked more strawberries per day and cut them in such a way that allowed them to grow back. The Brits were cutting them in such a way that they were destroying the plant and were picking far fewer per day. He said that if it wasn’t for the Eastern Europeans he would have to go for machines/robots as he couldn’t afford to stay in business how the Brits performed. You might still be able to find this on Channel 4. There are other such programmes. One had arranged for 5-6 Brits on benefits to start working in an Indian restaurant, but on the day they were meant to start all except one called in sick and when they were interviewed said that the salary was too low…It shocked me to watch this but apparently people really do think that way and employers want someone reliable with a strong work ethic.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yvetta
      I’m sure there are Brits who call in sick everyday but you really should not make ill judged statements based on your limited experience. There are also plenty of hard working Brits just like there are plenty of Brits on benefits who don’t want to be there and would love a job…but they are not the point of this forum or this topic

      This topic is about immigrants and at the end of the day there is nothing the UK can do about its indigenous population no matter how lazy they may be, they live here and cannot legally be kicked out the country just because they cant be bothered to get a job. What we should be able to do though is stop any more layabouts entering the country and adding to the existing problem

      And for your information, this is not racist, it doesn’t matter who they are or where they come from, it is purely a matter of economic common sense

    • avatar
      Joe Ugly

      Hi Paul, once again you sound discriminatory and racist. Your whole logic is based on the fact what Brits do is not what EU foreigners should be allowed to do. And just for the record the debate is about EU MIGRANTS not IMMIGRANTS.

      In what way exactly is my experience limited and yours isn’t?

    • avatar
      Steve P

      joe Ugly
      What are you talking about racist.
      What is racist about Paul x comment,nothing thats what.Your losing the argument same as Yvetta so you both scream racist .Deary me.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      I can;t see that I am, Steve. Paul knows that he has. That’s why he just keeps repeating himself trying to rephrase and make it somehow sound acceptable. He is unable to come up with anything else…doesn’t matter…I think we have all got the picture.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yvetta, I have to keep repeating myself because people don’t seem to bother reading what I have already written (several times)

      Big yawn at the old “discriminatory and racist” accusations again but for the benefit of those too stupid to understand it first time…..

      “Discriminatory”…yes, if believing that migrants who have not contributed to the UK economy deserve to get nothing out of it is discriminatory, then fine, I discriminate ..clear enough for everyone?

      “Racist”…most certainly not, I don’t care what race a person is, I still hold the belief that if they have not contributed then they should not benefit…and that includes non contributors from the indigenous UK population. Though considering this topic is about EU migrants (clue is in the title) then clearly that is all people should be discussing on here……now is that so difficult to understand?

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Yada yada yada, Paul, I can’t even be bothered to read your reply. I stand by what I have already said and have nothing to add. Why do you feel the need to keep explaining yourself? Guilt?

    • avatar
      PaulX

      But you still had to come back for a look and to try and get the last word in didn’t you?….ROFL……byeeeee

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Ha ha, when all else fails…, a personal attack comes in handy…

    • avatar
      Paul X

      And where exactly is the personal attack?…….oh do you mean like calling someone racist?….no sorry, not my style….I leave that to others…..

      Definitely bored with you and your delusional accusations now….adios

  4. avatar
    catherine benning

    Migrants from outside the EU should be refused entry unless they have legally applied to enter.

    The welfare entitlements are a ‘right’ of the citizen of each state that paid for them. Paid for by their taxes in order to insure their own rights to benefit when they fall on desperately hard times. It was not ever, and is not now, meant to be used for immigrants of the world. It is not an ‘international’ welfare state. It is a ‘national’ welfare fund paid for by generations of the indigenous people. Those who worked, fought for and died for their country. And politicians had no mandate to either import millions of people into our continent or offer to pay them welfare out of ‘our’ and our parents hard work. The gall to even ask this question tells how far this lunacy has gone. To ask implies immigrants have a right to our hard times fund. Where on earth are you people who run this show coming from? You want to support these you want to be seen to embrace, then you do it out of your own pockets.

    And if you want to house and educate them, as well as offer them a health service, then you pay for it out of your own collective funds from your own savings. Put the money back into our kitty that you have stolen. Give us back the homes we paid for ‘our poor’ to have in social housing when they could not afford the crazy rent we find very few can now afford in the so called ‘private sector.’

    And if you think this is tough look at how rough this modern world is to all of us. A ‘white’ woman having to pretend she is ‘black’ in order to get a job in the world of the politically delusional, via so called, ‘positive discrimination.’ And of course she is being condemned for her ‘lies.’ How dare she, they cry out loud. When all she is doing is following the lead of Merle Oberon or Freddie Mercury, when they felt their only way to salvation was to ‘pass’ in their chosen society. And is her fear of rejection any different from the man/woman ‘transgender’ individual who tells us they are no longer the sex they were born with? That, in fact, they never were that sex in the first place, it was all a horrid mistake at birth and if we dare to disagree we face a backlash akin to the stocks.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/rachel-dolezal-what-the-rights-activists-story-says-about-being-white-in-modern-america-10318082.html
    Now we have women expected to behave with the manner of men in the boardroom in order to get that ‘well paying job.’ And unless she does, she is not credible. Her biggest fear being told she acts with too many feminine traits, she isn’t mean enough. Or, the fear she has of being seen as a mother to her children and therefore not fit to exist, as only females who ‘slave’ outside the home are worthy of three meals a day.

    Give me air I can’t breathe from this crock of it. This morning one of our clever runner ups for next Prime Minister suggested it isn’t ‘wrong’ to see men and women as different but equal. Oh, really, well thank you gov.

  5. avatar
    Rick Wilmot

    The only way to stop ‘abuse’ is for every country to have an equal welfare system!

    • avatar
      hans van veen

      Agree, and it will never happen, because we have a EU with 2 different economical areas. Something that will never change. Also the reason why the EU will never have the economical succes the EG reached.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      You can change it though.Just leave the EU its simple we are.

  6. avatar
    Maia Alexandrova

    If there are any restrictions adopted, they should be applied to ALL migrants, not only to those from EU. Otherwise, the arguments for the restrictions are proven false because it means that UK plans to continue tolerating the abuse of its welfare system by migrants from outside EU.

    A better system would be to have a European Social Fund which will help EU citizens with low income, even if they live in their own country. In this way people will not feel the need to migrate elsewhere for higher income. A European poverty minimum could be established, for example 500 euro a month and everyone receiving less than that would be entitled to a European benefit to compensate for the difference. However, to avoid abuse of this fund, there should also be a common minimum wage introduced for all EU countries, which in this example is 500 euro a month. All governments should commit to that in order to access the EU Social Fund and while there can be countries with higher national minimum wage than the European one, there should be no countries with lower national minimum wage than the set European minimum. This is how equality can be achieved throughout EU and economic migration stopped. This is real solidarity.

    • avatar
      Jenny Hughes

      A European poverty minimum is a great idea but obviously the amount would be very different in each country: ALL costs are different, of course. And live on 500 euros? Is that a joke? OK if you live in your car or a tent. What planet are you from?!

      You need a computer/access to one in order to sign on as unemployed in many places, does your 500 include that? A telephone has now become a necessity and there are almost no phone boxes now = must have a mobile, especially when the poorest (and very high proportion of disabled people in this group, far higher than in richer groups) are often moved on regularly and have no housing security = no home phone. And transport, laundrette, heating, cooking fuel…

      Governments know that welfare benefits do not pay enough to live on and for decades have turned a (mostly) blind eye to those who MUST earn a bit extra = IF able to, many disabled people can’t whereas young/fit people can – and do.

      Yes: a minimum amount to every person – errm that’s what social security is meant to be = our insurance for if something awful happens and we can’t work or become unemployed. But it hasn’t kept pace with real costs for decades. When I was young you could just about live on it (I paid £3.50 per week rent = yes I’m VERY old, that was in the 1970s in the UK). But now rents and many other costs have shot up and living on benefits is WAY below the poverty line, i think they count that as earning less than 60% of average wage?

      We are told ‘free movement of people’ without inclusion for healthcare, benefits and housing we do not have free movement and are considered less than human, having fewer or no rights.

      Why can’t each EU country just tot up at the end of each year what its people (migrated to other EU countries) have cost host state and do a bit of jiggling with cash and even it out? Or better, in an ideal world = invest in us and we may repay several times over.

      Of course if the richest European countries built factories in poorer E countries and used them for call centres etc. (instead of China, India and so on) then there would be work for the people and they could earn better, less unemployment and wouldn’t want/need to leave their own country – except the few (often the young) who want to travel, learn english and so on.

      It’s governments’ faults: they crow ‘life here is so good’, they lie: ‘unemployment is down’ etc. Their propaganda encourages immigration, if they told the truth… but they won’t so WE must tell others how it really is, the reality of living (actually you can’t LIVE barely even survive) on benefits. Governments’ faults for lying about that too, and they KNOW they’re lying but they then whine about others coming to claim them. They must think they know what they’re doing but.

      Obviously wherever you live we ALL need the same basics: enough good food to stay healthy and so on. Investing in people’s health and welfare is a wise and prudent choice: it saves far more in the long-term PLUS/BONUS happy healthy people who can be productive. Easy huh?

  7. avatar
    catherine benning

    In addition to my previous post, which must be considered not fit reading for adults, I will add this.

    As far as ‘Europeans’ going from one State to another, that is a different matter. Each State must pay the same amount as the countries all these migrants run to in order to receive benefit and survive.

    As it appears they all seem to be heading for the UK, then, ‘all EU countries’ must offer ‘identical’ benefits as the British. Social housing, health care, education, out of work payments, child credit payments, housing benefit, council tax benefit, health care free at the point of use, disability living allowance, mobility allowance, free prescriptions and glasses, dental care, and so on. This is what the British ‘tax payer’ gives his/her money to cover so that when the times are against them they have a secure life to keep them going. It is right to do this, and it is right that every European does this at the same level as the British.

    If, as a pensioner, I am living on a state pension or on disability it would be nice if I could go and live in the warmer climates of the mediteranean and not be forced to remain in the UK. I could not do this because I would be cut off like a piece of rotten cheese if I decided to go to Southern France or Italy. Therefore, it should be easy to do this, not so difficult that the fear to make that move becomes a fools paradise.

    I have an elderly Aunt, she worked all her life when not raising her children, but, her pension is so low she has to depend on her disability payments and various other benefits our country offers. However, should she want to live her dream of ‘St Raphael’ it is not possible for her. She would be cut off the minute she stepped on the ferry. How can this be right in a continent where all but she, because of her age, has the right to free movement?

    If that is sorted out, then the mass movement to one country will stop.

  8. avatar
    ironworker

    Are EU reforms needed to crack down on abuse of welfare systems? Or is so-called ‘welfare tourism’ a myth?

    Enforcing the 3-5 years time before getting any form of “welfare” for migrants and that should work for a while. Denying migrants to enter the country and that should work for a while as well. Or keep bitching about migrants “abusing” the social system and that should also be fine a while.

    PS : Why don’t you openly admit it ? The neoliberal/neoconservative ( hehehe centre right ) european elite intend to destroy the so called “welfare state” by all means necessary.

  9. avatar
    Omid Ashabi

    Well how many times I Twitted the president of EU or EU parliament directly and offered them a non-conditional solution (to European illegal migration and world refugees) only for a fee to pay for having one day tutorial in EU Parliament, which answer all their questions (which yet they’re not even aware of them). I really don’t get it, these days Madonna or Lady Gaga move their butt in front of 100 of thousand idiots, and make 100 of Million of dollars over night. Now I want to give tutorial to the Most Idiots of Europe (elected for their stupidity) only in one day, and I don’t get even a response. Da!

  10. avatar
    Lada Crnobori

    It’s a British right-wing gimmick that’s gotten really old. Beating a dead horse with it already.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Explain please

  11. avatar
    Toni Muñiz

    A myth? You need to get out more and see the truth. I will provide you with one example. A yihadist from Spain that had been living here for 5 years, only worked 6 months, lived the rest of the time off of welfare. Left to fight in Syria and was still receiving benefits. Died in Syria, and was still receiving benefits. And like this I can give you thousands of examples. Even Moroccons receiving benefits and living in Morocco and using our healthcare system in Morocco which is then charged to Spain. All is easily verified. So yes we need reform and not provide migrants to the EU welfare. Our countries are not charities. If you come here it is to work, not to live off of welfare. As far as Europeans moving within EU, they should be able to receive welfare only after contributing to it as any other resident of that state.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Not in the UK its not,i have seen it first hand.

  12. avatar
    David Hands

    I think the point might be this.
    Under EU law it is illegal to set a law that binds people from one state that does not bind people from another. So ultimately the answer from the EU will be – if you want to restrict benefits for immigrants then you must apply the same restrictions to UK citizens.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ David Hands:

      That is exactly what they are wanting to do. It follows the US pattern already carried out and the horror of its outcome hidden from sight. Except, the UK indigenous people must then have a way to collectively sue the politicians personally for all the money paid into any government scheme under their false pretences.

      Example: The contract they made between the people of our nation were promised by compelling us to pay the high taxes levied via a national insurance scheme and promises of care from cradle to grave, that were taken forcibly, under the proviso we received the care they would provide with that money.

      Billions of pounds of our taxes has been frittered away by incompetant and fiscally irresponsible people pretending to be working in the best interests of the nations people. The import of mass labour, who then were allowed to qualify for ‘our national not international welfare,’ was fraudulent. To use our welfare fund to bail out banking likewise was a fraud. Therefore, those responsible for such decisions must be made to pay, personally and financially, for their corrupt decisions. Just the same way the state forces drug dealers and money launderers to forfeit their assets when they are caught.

      The treasury must then be prepared to hand the billions of pounds taken from us, under false pretences and a pack of lies, and redistribute it the same way they did with the ‘Hitler money’ given to Jews after WW11. It was war reprarations for the misery imposed on them. My mother’s friend Helen received it for years.

      This kind of rampant fraud toward the tax payer of our civilised states must stop. And those who carry out the fraud forced to compensate personally and collectively.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      That is the point David and it is yet another example of an ill conceived concept being driven by a bunch of naive, amateur, bureaucrats

      You can enforce a level playing field on the criteria for claiming benefits but if the amount of benefit you can claim varies from country to country you don’t need a degree in politics to work out that a lot of people will move to where the best benefits are to be had

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      Welfare tourism does not actually exist. Any scientific study finds the EU migrants pay in thehost state’s welfare system much more than they draw on benefits.

      For instance, UK would probably not have the current levels of welfare for British citizens without this EU migrants’ contribution. In short, Poles pay UK elders’ pensions.

      See some study for the UK: http://blogs.ft.com/off-message/2014/11/12/what-you-need-to-know-about-eu-migration-and-welfare/

    • avatar
      Paul X

      But Giovanni why does it need to be migrants supporting our welfare while we have nearly 2M unemployed?

      Because migrants are cheaper, and if you are paying them less they pay less tax (those that actually do pay tax that is)

      If the indigenous unemployed were given the jobs at what should be the reasonable rate of pay for the UK then there would be more tax income

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Or just leave like we will.

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      Arguments should be specific. For instance, UK simply does not educate enough health workes (doctors, nurses, dentists, DENTISTS, etc.) on its own.

      For instance, if restrictions are placed on migrant workers, you will generate simply an artificial shortage in workforce, a deadweight loss of general welfare due to surplus accruing to the extant workforce and generally longer waiting times for sloppier services. Now, given the sheer size of GDP going into the NHS, the argument should push you into reconsidering your position. But it won’t, nothing can.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Giovanni we can recruit medical staff or anyone other shortfall of specific proffesionals,its very simple really.
      We just get to choose who we get.

  13. avatar
    David Hands

    And so they will get to impose vicious restrictions on everyone and will then claim that “the EU made us do it”.

  14. avatar
    Jokera Jokerov

    Belive me, I know where Bolivia is. If this country embarasses you for some reason, I`ll paraphrise my question: Equal like Danemark or like Kosovo? ;)

  15. avatar
    EU reform- proactive

    What’s about a fresh look by dumping all past, burdensome baggage & arguments? A total recall- after an (assumed) EU28 ‘collapse’! Unrestricted participation open to all 48 Members of the “Council of Europe” (CoE)- voluntarily.

    The new & future version “EU-2.0”:

    Groupings are based on achievements & the ‘independent’ “World Happiness index”- see: http://worldhappiness.report/
    Conditions: everyone’s full sovereignty will be restored, advancement depends on own achievements. No more X-charity, threats, penalties or sanctions by a suzerain.

    All details of shared inter-group competences & benefits to be negotiated by all qualifying, sovereign remaining group members afresh. Making use & avoiding the painful experiences of yesteryear. No need for an EU Parliament. The birth of the new, but happier “EU17” would look like this at present:

    Platinum Members (11): Switzerland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, Luxembourg, Ireland, Belgium. (Eligible by making it to the top listed 20 countries)

    Gold Members (3) : United Kingdom, Germany, France. (Eligible for being listed from 21-30)

    Silver Members (3): Czech Republic, Spain, Malta. (Eligible for being listed from 31-40)

    All other unlisted (>41) European countries (31 laggards) to remain in a ‘happiness apprenticeship mode’ Advancement dependent on own competitive achievements & a will to improve own “happiness”.

  16. avatar
    eugenia serban

    Welfare migration is a myth. People who spend their few resoutces to travel and move to another country because of poverty are VERY EAGER TO FIND WORK. just any job they are willing tovtake, many times below their qualification.
    EU migrants come to rich countries to WORK HARD and offer their families a brighter future.
    the only exception from this rule are gypsies who don t fit in any European country because they are nomads, unqualified, uneducated, illetarate and prone to lawbreaking in any way posible.
    and YES, abusing the benefits of any country, citisen or migrant, should be stopped. It s not even hard : enstate laws against granting welfare support to people who have never worked a day in their lives. No benefits for them, evem they have 100 children. They usualy do have so.

    • avatar
      Marcel

      Welfare migration is a fact, denied only by the enemies of democracy (pro-EU people).

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      I am afraid you are off-topic. Whatever their status, they are certainly non-EU citizens and the rules welfare access for EU migrants do not apply to them.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Typical…

  17. avatar
    catherine benning

    Here is a guy in our Parliament who is being given the opportunity to lead his ‘socialist party’ that has, to date, veered so far to the right with it’s Blairite infiltration that its policies now lean toward Attilla the Hun. And do our press fear him? You bet your life they do. The attack on him is quivering with anxiety. And the reason is this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZvAvNJL-gE

    Listen to what he has to say and judge for yourself what is best for a nations people as a whole.

  18. avatar
    Paola Odorico

    What obligations do they fulfill before having entitlements? Work and pay taxes first for at list two years.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Paola Odorico:

      One problem witht hat is, the lwo paid in the UK don’t pay taxes. Instead they receive welfare payments to top up the low pay so that employers do not have to give a living wage. So the tax payer pays them if they don’t work and pays again if they do.

      In fact for a lifetime they pay no tax as they are on slave labour wages.

  19. avatar
    Nikolay Petrov Petrov

    Force the rich Bulgarians (who are descendents of Europe s oldest population – the Thracians) to stop being greedy and give more to those less fortunate! Then less Bulgarians would leave for Western Europe where there is more justice for the time being.

  20. avatar
    Timo Juhani Toimela

    To be discussed of “The Generation Game” . . .

    My opinion is that for instance the career opportunities are typically better to the members of the young families of the independent states in the first decades after the big wars everywhere in this world.

    One bic issue should to be discussed in this day Europe would be how to set the childrens of the Cross European parents in the right level in the single state social-economical common known pyramide.

  21. avatar
    Rui Duarte

    It’s a Myth. Any system will be liable to «abuses»; staving it off is a question of «management».. but large Companies abuse more billions in tax-evasion than welfare system will ever hand-out. That’s not where «the problem» is.

  22. avatar
    Maura

    EU migrants should be denied benefits if they have not worked and contributed for 1 consecutive year. After a migrant has worked for 1 year should have full right as anybody else to be paid benefits equivalent to an average of the last 3 payslips given by his employee. This will level the system currently being used in other countries and should be made illegal for the government to pay the same money to someone that was in employment as someone that has never worked. This is a system that should be applied to all regardless of nationality. For instance if a British person has never worked should not be entitled to any benefits. In order to qualify needs to show that has paid national contributions. On another subject, those coming from countries outside Europe should not qualify at all as their country is not part of any agreement with the UK and the European Union.

  23. avatar
    Limbidis Adrian

    More UK nonsense anout “evul welfare leeches”.
    Reality is as the numbers show but the people who believe this will never change.
    They need a reason to hate migrants…because if they don’t they realize they are a failure themselves.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Agree with this comment. There are more locals claiming benefits and abusing the system but nobody notices that.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      yeah maybe but there our scroungers we dont want everybody elses thanks ,still wont be a problem soon when we get out of the EU

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      Well, once Britain is out, you’ll have a hard task to face. Given that British will be wrecked for quite a while, who to blame next????

      The Scots? The Welsh? The Irish? I suggest you should have a hard look in the mirror.

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      I mean the British economy, of course.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      As long it is yourself living off those benefits and not someone else you are happy Steve, aren’t you?

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Our economy will not suffer in anyway.The only people who will suffer is the rest of the EU .

  24. avatar
    Maura

    I agree with Limbidis Adrian. The system is a total failure.

  25. avatar
    Enis Van der Feerd

    Welfare should only be offered to citizens of the country in which they are claiming. Equality is being taken away from citizens of wealthy European countries. How is it fair for a Romanian to claim welfare benefits in Germany when Germans cannot do the same, or at least to the same extent, in Romania? I understand the Grand idea is to formulate the United States of Europe, however, this should not be done at the detriment of the tax paying citizens of the strongest member states. Can anyone provide insight into this?

  26. avatar
    Maura

    Enis Van Der Feerd….you are 100pc right but nobody is taking action against the unfair welfare system lead by the conservative party. The UK is also against all the EU regulations and has changed the entire system without consulting none of the EU countries. Add to it that the offices i.s. DWP are run by ignorant staff that have no knowledge of the law of interpretation of the laws. How fair is it? These should be fired immediately and replaced by robot.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      No we have an opt out and quite rightly too,if they are ignorant then they will have a very good reason .Also if you dont like it feel free to leave

  27. avatar
    Giovanni Verdi

    When one looks at facts, it turns out that intra-EU migrants contributes to their host state’schools budget far more than they draw on welfare, whereas local citizens are far more likely to be on benefits without ever paying in the system.

    Welfare tourism, as a scientific notion, does not really exist and should not be addressed by the politics, much like it makes no sense to ban hunting unicorns.

    A sample of studies:
    1) UK (http://blogs.ft.com/off-message/2014/11/12/what-you-need-to-know-about-eu-migration-and-welfare/)
    2)UK, Netherlands, Germany, Austria (FISCAL IMPACT OF EU MIGRANTS IN AUSTRIA, GERMANY, THE NETHERLANDS, AND THE UK, https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=mKCCVcjwG4GL7Ab2y4LgCQ&url=http://www.ecas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Fiscal-Impact-of-EU-migrants.pdf&ved=0CD8QFjAI&usg=AFQjCNHTnbmGSk124N834R1PmP2eeO7N3g&sig2=mBvbP5AgePRqmbV2n7DyMw)

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Have you actually read the second document you link to?

      Quotes:

      ” Therefore, these government institutions could not deliver actual data on contributions and outlays related to EU-migrants in the respective country.
      Therefore, the study can provide an expert estimate which relies on available statistical data” …………….i.e. contains no facts just estimates from “experts” (funnily enough these experts are employed by the EU)

      Another:
      “EU migrants consist, on average, of people with higher education than the population of the country they move into” …..yer right,so our fields are full of degree qualified Eastern Europeans picking potatos?

      Basically, as a piece of entertainment its a good laugh, as a factual document it is not worth the cyber paper it is written on

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      Please read at least until the end of the summary.

      “In conclusion, in all four countries, EU migrants made a positive contribution to the government budget, as the total taxes they paid exceeded the total benefits they received during 2007 – 2013 period. This is true for Austria, Germany and the UK, even if pensions are excluded from the calculation. The only exception is in the Netherlands, where the fiscal contribution of EU foreigners was negative because old-age pensions were not taken into consideration”.

      And you don’t even mention the Financial Times article, which points out how EU migrants pay into UK welfare much more they draw.
      Make peace with facts and be selfish: accept EU migrants with welfare rights.

      Otherwise, I wish you good luck in hunting unicorns.

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      By the way, are those racist overtones or it is just a random thing?

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Giovanni, it doesn’t matter what the conclusion is, the report admits in its opening paragraph that there is no factual data available and therefore the whole thing is just the opinion of “experts”

      Racist overtones..where exactly?

    • avatar
      Marcel

      @Paul
      “an opinion of experts”, that should have said “an opinion of pro-EU experts who hate democracy and will lie and propagandize on behalf of the EU”.

      Never trust any report written by Europhiles.

    • avatar
      Marcel

      Giovanni, the report entirely fails to take into account the cost of a local person remaining unemployed because of his/her job being stolen by a “cheaper” foreigner. The entire cost for benefits/welfare of that person, and the consequences for his/her dependents should be counted as a cost against immigration, which would tip the balance easily negative.

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      I suppose you would discard Ricardo’s argument about the division of labour and how the free movement of production factors maximise general welfare.
      I suppose you would also discard the fact the only position foreigners might steal are those low paid ones locals do not want anymore, hardly stealing them therefore.
      And tabloid press seems hardly more reliable than serious reports or newspapers. Usually it boasts untutored rants against anybody and anything foreign, without any facts backing up the claims. Do take into account their prejudice and bigotry.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Giovanni, I assume you are referring to article 21 of the charter of fundamental rights?

      If so, then it needs to be treated with the contempt it deserves. That article is so vague it basically want everyone to have the right to do anything they want in any country they choose…..is it any wonder the UK wants an opt out?

      ..and Yvetta, the one word that stands out in your reply is “evidence” Do not accuse others of merely repeating what other say without any evidence, yet doing exactly the same yourselves.
      I work in the UK in a multinational company with a workforce that has quite a few well educated migrants from both inside and outside the EU…..but I have also been to several places in the UK and witnessed large groups of unemployed migrants hanging around doing nothing…..I have seen with my own eyes both ends of the migrant spectrum..that is my “evidence” and it is real evidence, not some fantasy land garbage being spouted from people outside the UK trying to tell us we do not have migrant problem, just because some EU sponsored document (which admits it is not factual) says migrants are “good for the UK”

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      There is NO reply from me, Paul…ha ha ha.

  28. avatar
    Enis Van der Feerd

    Maura….. the UK welfare system has been a shambles since the Labour government under Tony Blair created an environment whereby people were financially better off living on benefits instead of accepting low wage employment. Margaret Thatcher was correct in her viewpoint that people should not rely solely on the state to provide a living for them. With regards to European migrants, they should be granted the right to live and work in other EU countries but not claim welfare payments. I understand some were living in the UK and claiming benefits for their children abroad. How is this fair to the UK taxpayer?

    • avatar
      Marcel

      Giovanni, the Financial Times is one of many publications that is disgustingly Europhilic and extremely biased pro-EU (anti-democracy) in its reporting, and its the parrot of major companies who want more cheap labor. Don’t trust any report written by pro-EU people because they always lie on behalf of the undemocratic EU and the wealth-destroying Euro.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Marcel, have you got any specific evidence to prove the unreliability of the FT and their pushing the interests of specific companies (which ones)? Because if you don’t, you know that is libel and they may take you to court over it. Surely they are entitled to their opinion and if they are pro-EU it may be because they are experts in finance and know a bit more about it than you do? Equally, have you got any evidence that you are more reliable than them? Anywhere we can go to read your dissertations and research (please provide links), which academic institutions do you work for etc?

  29. avatar
    Yvetta

    Tarquin “said he accepts that only a relatively small percentage of EU migrants come to the UK to abuse the benefit system, but he feels that even a small percentage is too much. Why should even a small amount of abuse be tolerated?”

    Why should benefits’ abuse by UK citizen be tolerated, Tarquin and how is it less burdensome to the system than that committed by recent migrants? There is a racist undertone to that.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Agreed Yvetta, no abuse of the system is acceptable
      But at least if it is being done by an indigenous person there is the chance that somewhere down the line there has been a parent or relative of that person who has contributed to British society, that at least gives a slight legitimacy to their actions over someone who has just turned up at the airport

      ..and why is the word racist becoming so popular on here lately?…. people have the right to express a negative opinion about immigration without being called racist despite what the PC brigade would have you think

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Hi Paul, I also have the right to express my opinion, which is that your mentality reminds me of the concentration camp mentality. It is my honest opinion that your view as well as Tarquin is racism and I don’t think that the phrase “PC brigade” should be used as some kind of stamp to prevent people from expressing their own views. I wasn’t referring to language but views and so find the PC label irrelevant and bullying, basically. Debating is about arguments and not characterisations. Thanks.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Well Yvetta your and my definition of racism seem to be slightly different

      The question of this topic is “should recent EU migrants be denied entitlement to welfare”….. and if you haven’t worked it out yet I believe yes…… I’m answering the question and have also given a reason why I argue yes..its called debate

      I also agree with Tarquin in saying that no percentage of abuse by EU migrants is acceptable, but you go off topic with a counter claim about abuse by UK citizens as if two wrongs make a right?

      So just exactly where does the racism come into it?……

      ……….and as for “concentration camp mentality”….tut tut, that is a very un-PC thing to accuse someone of, you should be ashamed of yourself…lol

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Hi Paul, I never said that I am politically correct and indeed I don’t try to be on this website because then the debate would not be genuine. I trust that the site moderators screen posts and I am ok with them removing mine if they are judged inappropriate.

      I hope you are not purposefully trying to confuse the conversation here…my response was to your comment to my response and not to your response to the question of the debate. I haven’t actually seen that at all if it exists.

      I repeat and I stand firmly by my view that yours and Tarquin’s mentality is racist because what it actually says is that what is wrong for foreigners to do in a certain country is ok for people from that country to do. Are you exploiting the benefits’ system where you live as well, Paul, and are you worried that you are going to lose out and have to go to work because of the anti-Polish campaign?

      When you say that a UK citizen has a relative that has contributed to the system, how do you know that? Does the benefits’ office check that? What if their parents and grand-parents lived off the benefits’ system as well. Why do you automatically assume that everyone British is honest?

      If racist is not the right word for it, it definitely is a form of discrimination and tribalism and whatever you want to call me, I am not going to budge on that. If you yourself felt confident about your own views, you would stand by them too without caring if someone calls you racist over them. Thanks.

      If you don’t mind, unless you have something of some substance to reply, I will not be replying to you further.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yvetta, it only sounds racist if you use the word foreigner, which you have, but I most certainly did not. My opinion extends to anyone, even someone who is born to British parents but who has never lived in the UK, should not be able to turn up here and benefit from our welfare system

      ….and I didn’t say anything about relatives or parents definitely must have contributed to the system, I said there is a chance that there has been a contribution to the UK system from an indigenous persons relatives or parents… where there is definitely no chance that someone who sets foot in the country for the first time has ever contributed…that is an undeniable statement of fact

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      Well, once one starts contributing to the budget and paying the pensions of the locals, I guess one is pretty even and rightly deserves welfare.

      If you think about, Britain lost its American colonies over the refusal of political representation of some taxpayers. Here the claim is a much more moderate one, so I guess Britain should stop whining and get about doing more…

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Paul, please, could you specify how you understand the word “indigenous” and what its opposite (antonym) is to you. Thanks. It is a word used by far-right parties, which again reminds me of concentration camps…The Jews were not indigenous enough and could not have the same rights, if you know what I mean. I know it might be hard to take when someone says it to your face but it might just about be the right time to look in the mirror.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      In any case, as said above (please read), I was referring to racist and discriminatory mentality and not language but Paul seems to find it necessary to change the topic to that…

    • avatar
      Paul X

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indigenous

      There is nothing racist about the word indigenous….. except to Europhiles who dream of wiping out local character and culture and convert everyone to a bland, gray, one size fits all “European Citizen”

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Paul, please don’t waste our time with pointless yada-yada. Like I said, racist and discriminatory views. That is it. You haven’t been able to come up with 1 single thing to refute it.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yvetta “Racist and discriminatory”?

      Ok, I believe that people who live in a country and have contributed to its economy deserve welfare whilst those who turn up at its borders with a begging bowl don’t, thats discrimanatory then fine, but thats my opinion

      But please keep your totally unfounded accusations of racism to your self, a lot of trouble gets caused in this world by people who use love to use the the word racism yet cleary have no real understanding of what the word means

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      Well, it sounds you are racist and you want discrimination, that’sounds my opinion, so that’should fine. The begging bowl argument is definitely racist. I guess you are even proud of being one, be open on that to yourself…

      EU citizens don’t fly around to scrounge welfare, try once yourself and you’la see how little you will get without being either a worker or a job-seeker.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Hi Paul, as said to you previously, when people apply for benefits, it does not get checked how long they or their parents have lived in the country and if they have contributed to its economy at all. You are just making assumptions based on nationality. You are just taking the conversation round in circles because it has become so obvious how discriminatory your views are, borderline racist, and you are aware that it does not look good for you. Also, as said to you before, please, do not waste our time with pointless conversation. Thanks.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      No abuse should be tolerated under any circumstances.
      Migrants who go to a country and expect benefits should be immediately returned to country of origin.It is not fair on host country to have to pay for the migrants.
      People in the UK find this insulting and scrounging.This not racist ,it is what is right and fair.Why should the British people pay for other countries citizens and the same goes for British living abroad.

    • avatar
      browngirlinthering

      What the hell do you know about hard working british people?
      I work for Lambeth council in south London and I see first hand daily the impact migrants have on our social housing and they will breed like rabbits just to get bigger digs. The portgese are the laziest , demanding scroungers then Somalis it is not in their culture for their women to work plus take a look at the amount of gang crime the perpetrte! Feltham young offenders are full of west african and somalis teefs and sex offenders all come here on French or Dutch passports. I spent two hours waiting in an overcrowded room waiting for an ultrasound where not one of the other women were british.
      The NHS would not be in trouble if it wernt for so many migrants. Stop spouting statistics and see with your own eyes. Only morons put their faith into bullshit left wing data designed to mollify the discontented.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Brown Girl, the debate is about EU migrants, so we are talking about a number of countries bound by trade agreements, contributing to the same budget and their health systems billing each other for care that they provide to people from within the EU area. I wouldn’t like to comment here on people coming from outside the EU because it would be off the topic. However, the mistakes that you have made in your post show lack of knowledge of the pronouncing system of the English language so I find your comment disrespectful of your own self but also slightly deluded and hypocritical. The latter probably doesn’t matter much. But the debate is about the EU anyway.

  30. avatar
    Yvetta

    There already is a legal framework with regards to that, so find the debate redundant. There is nothing subjective in legal matters and everything is clearly set and defined. No need for this debate at all.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      paul mate, dont worry about it ,we will be out of this farse EU soon anyway .None of them will get any benefits then

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      You’re responding to Yvetta, Steve. I would imagine you do have trouble getting a job…Perhaps you need to look at your own skills before you start blaming others for taking your job. Maybe they do a better job than you. Ever thought of that?

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      Hahaha I Own my own company employing quite a few people actually .Still I stand by what u said ,we will be out soon and your right I typed in wrong box ment for post above .Which I see you were quite active in spreading your PC views haha

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Good on you, Stephen, that you are employing yourself because with such spelling you would not get an interview. Only some manual job may be where attention to detail and education don’t count much but then they don’t pay as well either…

  31. avatar
    David Harrison

    They should not be able to claim child benefits if their children don’t even live in the UK.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Agreed ,they should not get benefits anyway .If they need benefits there own country should pay it.

  32. avatar
    Julia Veble Mikić

    Of course! Changing place of residence should be an exclusive privilege of the wealthy! Those that may need some support from the state before they start contributing to the economy should be banned from ever leaving their hometown/country! Better yet – lock them up! How dare they even THINK of moving! What do they think they are, actual human beings?!

    • avatar
      Marcel

      We sure as heck don’t want people without a job coming here spongeing off of our state. We don’t need people like that. And another thing, there’s no such thing as the right to live elsewhere, especially not when you don’t have a job (its EU law, freedom of movement refers to workers, not to all people).

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Julia ,you might have something there

  33. avatar
    Edgar Da Silva Carreira

    No. They are a value added to the host country not only in economic terms (this is the elementary vision that should be avoided in a complex world), but as well with respect to innovation and including with respect to the attraction of more immigrants, when Europe (and the whole OECD) are getting old in a fast pace.

  34. avatar
    Nando Aidos

    Where are the numbers? The statistics or whatever measurements that can support one position or the other? Or is all this just hear-say?
    Because if it is just hear-say it should not be part of “Debating Europe” at all!
    And if there are numbers, let us have them so we can evaluate the question!

  35. avatar
    Lee Lovelock

    YES. 10 Year Bewonehād (residency) with 1 month break being the maximum time allowed out the Land before resetting back to Year 1 of one’s oncoming into that Land.

  36. avatar
    Edgar Da Silva Carreira

    Avoid monolithic views by don’t talking only about “numbers” when you’re discussing something related with the human race.

  37. avatar
    Anna Mikelson

    1. What about those immigrants from ‘rich’ EU countries (like UK, Scandinavia etc.) who live in Southern European countries and use social benefits and lower tax rates there? http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

    2. No access to welfare and social security when working abroad should lead to paying taxes in country of origin. You can’t expect people come to work and pay taxes and deny them social security.

    3. Before complaining about immigrants taking your jobs, get the unemployment rate down to 0% and most of the ‘own people’ working full time.

    • avatar
      Marcel

      How can people get a job when companies prefer a cheaper foreign worker?

  38. avatar
    Joey Stack

    As the article said, even a small percentage is too much. There should be at least 3-4 years before any migrant is allowed to claim benefits; and yes, before anyone moans about the British, it should be the same for British people in other countries too; the welfare culture that has manifested itself in British society has seen a large portion of my generation become dependent on benefits, and we can moan about the conservatives as much as we like, but the reason they’re cutting benefits back is to make people go to work and earn there money, rather than having it given; granted, they are cutting public spending in some of the wrong places, but stripping back the benefits system so that it’s only used by those that have real need of it is a good thing.

  39. avatar
    Ferenc Lázár

    The welfare tourim is just an excuse to deny the work from east european people! if U.K. or other E.U. countries choose the asylium seekers rather than young hardworkers from Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania etc. let them have it! But than don-t come to our countries with investing in our privatization, don-t buy lands, properties, factories! We will choose than the Chinese, Russian and other investors!

    • avatar
      Marcel

      We have unemployment here, we don’t need young “hardworkers” (ahem, cough) from anywhere in Eastern Europe. What these people really are is people who work for less thus undercutting local workers, driving down wages. I’d welcome the iron curtain back.

  40. avatar
    Rita Cortis Coleiro

    They should never be allowed to claim any form of benefits… That would certainly keep most at bay, so to speak !

  41. avatar
    Liliana Ramsing

    Of course, not!! They should have rights like all the other people. Unemployment should be a temporal situation until the job sicker finds a job…

  42. avatar
    Liliana Ramsing

    Of course, not!! They should have rights like all the other people. Unemployment should be a temporal situation until the job sicker finds a job…

  43. avatar
    Valeria Greenhouse

    Who come and work should be entitled to benefits because they are tax payers. However, there must be also common european strict rules to select immigrants ex ante. But who is in must be integrated and benefit welfare of course. Strict selection + benefits

  44. avatar
    Valeria Greenhouse

    Who come and work should be entitled to benefits because they are tax payers. However, there must be also common european strict rules to select immigrants ex ante. But who is in must be integrated and benefit welfare of course. Strict selection + benefits

  45. avatar
    Liliana Ramsing

    I think so called well-fare tourism is exaggerated…Just idiots move to another country hoping they will have better lives living on unemployment or other benefits. Those types of help are most of the time very limited and can give a normal live to anyone.

  46. avatar
    Liliana Ramsing

    I think so called well-fare tourism is exaggerated…Just idiots move to another country hoping they will have better lives living on unemployment or other benefits. Those types of help are most of the time very limited and can give a normal live to anyone.

  47. avatar
    Marian Bîrlădeanu

    Why would we do that? Who are we to decide for other even they are not EU citizens? In the end we share the same condition: we are humans. Then, we are people with rights and in the end some of us are citizens and some are not. BUT FIRST OF ALL WE HAVE TO TREAT THEM AS HUMANS.

  48. avatar
    Sarah EsEs

    There z no better place t live then in europe.. in terms of security stability.. they should be treated as humaines sure.. but well sometimes it s scareful t see the number.. will europe be able t take them all?

  49. avatar
    Rui Duarte

    Welfare is a component of the paricipation in a society. People who participate with their taxes and their involvement in society can not be denied welfare or participation.

  50. avatar
    Spaniardfbm

    You have to make reforms and think hard about them till you get a system fair for all.
    In Spain, public health care was almost free and universal.
    The Conservatives introduced price, and benefits for anyone that had paid more than a year of the “social insurance tax”.
    So if you haven’t, no matter if you are a national or a foreigner, you have to pay the full price.
    New migrants will be in this situation during their first year.
    It’s by no means perfect, but it’s a step in the right direction, because it avoids discrimination on the ground of nationality.

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      If you get your news from the Telegraph, poor you. The only true fact it prints it’s the newspaper’s name. Hardly worth its paper and certainly not worth anybody’s time.

      It will be very cold in the North Sea for a small country such as a UK outside the EU and likely without Scotland. Stop dreaming that Britain is still an empire, that’s gone. Right now, compared to India, China, the U.S. or the EU itself, the UK alone is a small fry. Hardly relevant.

      Britain got a huge rebate, opt-outs and frankly a lot pro-UK finance market policies which are making the City go.

      If you’re unhappy with that, please stop bothering the continent and get out. To do that, there is no need of negotiating a new treaty with the EU. It suffices that the British government initiates the withdrawal. So stop whingeing as a spoiled kid and start taking responsibility.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      “Britain got a huge rebate”…… along with Netherlands, Sweden, Austria and Germany

      “a lot pro-UK finance market policies which are making the City go”….. I suggest the city is “going” despite the best the efforts of the EU to slow it down…..take the FTT as a prime example

  51. avatar
    Prince du Sang

    Whoa, I thought Europe believed in equality remember??? In that case no one should “entitled” to anything.

  52. avatar
    Costin Halaicu

    Welfare tourism was some bollocks spewed by a few right wing extremist nationalists in a few countries, and briefly adopted as part of the rhetoric of some main stream right wing parties before elections in an attempt to cater to these electoral pools in a few elections. It’s nothing more then blatant populism. No statistic actually proves it right in any way, and this hasn’t changed in years.

    • avatar
      Marcel

      Welfare tourism is a fact. Even the government here in the Netherlands admitted as much last year when one case after another of Romanians and Bulgarians gaming the benefit system surfaced. Its just that progressive upper class liberal types want to look away, until they’re confronted with reality.

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      Cite the cases, give the source. Beef up your claim.

  53. avatar
    Vincent Kleijn

    well I’m moving to Prague, but it is for getting a job, not for being interested in social welfare :-D

  54. avatar
    Max Berre

    Well, in America, we’ve accepted that the “welfare queen” is little more than a racist caricature of the african american community.

    Why should we pretend that it’s any different here in Europe? I really get tired of hearing the right around here say “No….but OUR racist caricatures are somehow more accurate than american ones”

    I call Bullshit.

    End Rant.

    • avatar
      Marcel

      If only you realized how stupid what you wrote is. But I’m not holding my breath for that to happen.

    • avatar
      Adrian Limbidis

      @Max Berre: it is racism here too.
      Mainly from the west towards the east.

  55. avatar
    Marcel

    “The available research” quoted in the opening fails to take into account that in most cases, when an immigrant is hired (usually at lower wages) a local becomes or remains unemployed. That is a loss for the society involved, that is not taken into proper account in any of these studies.

    Freedom of movement was explicitly meant for people WITH a job, not for people without one. Freedom of movement in the EU refers to workers in specific, not to all people in general. This is what gets misrepresented all the time. And don’t tell me a society isn’t better off if it can send the unemployed economic immigrants back. And indeed, as soon as a migrant worker loses their job you can send them back.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Marcel, could you explain to us what difference it makes whether they do have a job or get one after they’ve arrived. Surely those employers that hire them would still prefer to hire them even if they were not in the country but willing to relocate out of their own expenses?

  56. avatar
    James McManama

    Actually, the research cited does debunk that myth. Particularly the last link, which is to a report by the UK Home Office discussing the impact of migration on the employment outcomes of UK workers.

    Economics is not a zero-sum game. If the economy is growing then firms hire more people, which means more jobs, which means lower unemployment. Your “one in, one out” view of economics is simplistic in the extreme.

    As for freedom of movement, it is indeed one of the fundamental rights guaranteed by the EU. However, non-discrimination based on nationality is also enshrined in the treaties. So, you cannot treat nationals from another EU Member State differently than you would treat your own citizens, which means you cannot discriminate against the dependants of workers.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      The non discrimination based on nationality refers to workers who are permitted free movement to work or to take up an offer of work

      Not giving benefits to people who have entered your country without a job, or with no offer of a job, is not discriminating against them because of nationality, it is merely applying the fundamental principal of the treaty of Rome and that they shouldn’t really be there in the first place

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      In one respect, you’re right… In the days of the Empire, British subjects freely circulates around the world and indeed it had the effects you describe.

      I suppose there must be some expertise on the subject at play here…

  57. avatar
    Maura

    I completely agree with James on the freedom of movement treaty.

    • avatar
      Steve P

      That is why we have to leave the EU ,freedom of movement kills local cultures and lowers wages end of story really

  58. avatar
    Giovanni Verdi

    You really don’t see the fact that foreign workers are the least likely to draw on welfare. If you have problems of spare cash, handle it with the “indigenous” who spend it.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Considering your “facts” come from EU sponsored reports that openly confess they are not based on any real data, I suggest you take them with a pinch of salt

      But putting that aside, It really does not matter one bit what percentage of EU migrants claim benefits compared to the percentage of indigenous population, that is pure EU spin to try and cloud the real issue. The simple fact (that hopefully even you can understand) is that it is economic stupidity to allow anyone into the country who is not going to contribute and will only add to the existing (indigenous) welfare bill. Whether it is 1 or 10000 it really doesn’t matter there is no “acceptable percentage”, certainly while we have 2.5M children suffering in poverty…comprende?

  59. avatar
    Giovanni Verdi

    I think you are profoundly devoid of any macro-economics understanding. Otherwise you would know that protectionist measures can only have a depressive impact on a nation’s wealth. Just read Ricardo, if you are not into new ideas…

    • avatar
      Paul X

      I know of Ricardo, but it seems like you don’t. His publications were to do with protectionism in trade
      Trade is a two way exchange and as he concluded, protectionism in trade has a negative effect. Quite how you think this is related to the uni-directional event of someone entering the UK and becoming a net loss to the economy is beyond me?
      And if you want to use words like macro-economics then you should really be looking at everything in the economy, not just the Daily Telegraph claims that “migrants are beneficial to the UK economy….” propaganda

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      @ all the EU myrmidons

      All these heated arguments trying to interpret these concocted & undemocratic-ally designed “treaty regulations” (not a law- except EEC trade) rightly or wrongly- is such a painful & wasteful part time!

      There need to be a basic understanding that any person who not so long swore allegiance to his own sovereign country- while doing his compulsory national draft- will (& should) never sell out or let his country be overrun by foreign legal only apparatchiks & their ill designed regulations- never being tested in a referendum in its totality. There is no wish or allegiance do so for a suzerain EU- but to remain a conscience objector protesting a future E-USSR!

      Simply, one expects & demands to have & receive some preferential treatment in his country of birth- “for ever”- called sovereignty! In honor of previous generations!

  60. avatar
    Maura

    The debate is about the welfare taken by EU citiziens. If welfare is not catered for after someone has contributed for years and years, then this means someone from the EU should not be taxed and this money should suffice to keep his/her own independence during hard times. There is a choice here. I have been around Europe and seen that British people are everywhere and working. Should they be treated like dirt as well? And…..careful with your comments. Hatred comments can get you into trouble and someone can face prosecution for discrimination. This debate is full of this. If your dreams come true what you will get is a country of paki, indians, africans from very poor background coming here without any money. Good luck with them!

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      Before a culture of (premature) entitlement is justified, the economy must be able to produce the goods first!

      “A litmus test of any welfare state today lies in its ability to sustain high employment levels.”

      However, EU unemployment rates (~10%) are appalling compared to the US, Japan (see chart) & China’s ~4%! The EU obviously does NOT pass this test!

      There are still too many “working papers” & re-“searches”. Clearly, EU politicians are experimenting, jumping the gun, hoping for the best and taking (fatal) chances in favor of an IDEOLOGY of enlargement on behalf of global business, political self gratification & NATO/US power.

      http://www.neujobs.eu/publications/state-art-reports/reconciling-work-and-welfare-europe
      http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics

  61. avatar
    peter.schellinck@alpha-consults.com

    Yes, we should apply the principle of “earn” not “give”. However, this would require a complete different approach to migration policy altogether. The EU should organise migrant villages spread across several EU countries of up to 20 thousand migrant enhabitants. The local Member State authorities support in providing the skills and organisation for the community to function. The enhabitants will have the possibility to acquaint with a multicultural society whilst having the opportunity to find his/her best possible way to learn, earn, contribute and behave. In doing so one also collects credits and once a certain amount have been earned this gives access to privileges and eventually the right of official documents and entry to any other EU country. The entire period of adoption one must remain in the appointed village.

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      Oh, dear, that sounds very much like a concentration camp-like system built on ethnic segregation. It also assumes that migrants do not have skills, nor culture and that sounds quite patronising.

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      Hi there! Already by considering alternatives we keep discussions for a simpler, better EU alive! While I share Giovanni’s concern, one needs to categorize & make distinctions on immigration & migration first. All good workable ideas & world’s best practices should serve as guidelines.

      IMMIGRATION: within a group of “sovereign” countries waving common border controls- but not their sovereignty. Immigration/alien control is still in place. Make it a responsibility for employers/employees to observe & comply when recruiting.

      * Legal or ‘positive’ immigration: A measure to serve a specific current economic purpose- like shortages of skills & manpower. To be supported by criteria’s according to every country’s own “different” economic needs & norms. Normally, these needs are communicated through private advertising or Labor Departments etc- but negotiated while the applicant remains in his/her own country until a contract of employment & accommodation is secured.

      * Illegal- ‘negative’ immigration: Obviously a transgression.

      MIGRATION: (Always controlled & UN monitored.)

      a) Understood as a temporary measure of assistance to accommodate people from countries fleeing a hot war or natural disasters in conjunction with UN resolutions, their classification, involvement & financial support. Not meant to be settled permanently but repatriated after the conflict ended.

      b) Economical migration: A “stampede”- based on personal judgment to flee & relocate “illegally”- from any country or continent- not classified by UN as a justifiable disaster- mainly bad local political management. Rescue at sea a UN shared responsibility. As “negative” immigration & therefore illegal. All to be collected, identified but repatriated home under UN supervision, the country of origin investigated, assisted to improve political & economic conditions & establish save havens when needed.

  62. avatar
    Giovanni Verdi

    I think the freedoms of movement have let market fill the demand of trained workers where there are shortages. And that in much simpler way, without need of inefficient government labour policies.
    It it ain’the broken, don’t fix it.
    And I stress segregated camps of any sort do not work integration.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      “I think the freedoms of movement have let market fill the demand of trained workers where there are shortages”

      Agreed Giovanni, and that was exactly the intention of the fundamental principle of the treaty of Rome

      It was never the intention of the treaty that countries can shift their welfare commitments to other countries, which is what this topic is about

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      I guess you haven’t read much case law on the freedoms of movement, otherwise you would know that the possibility of equal access to welfare for workers and house ekes and their families was found to be a necessary component of the freedoms.
      doing otherwise would deter the free movement, so there it goes your assumption about the narrow intent if the treaty drafters.

      But again I assume you are interested in the law…

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      They haven’t read anything here, Giovanni. They just think that they were born knowing a lot and if many people repeat the same thing over again, it must be true.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Giovanni, I don’t think there is much “case law” about freedom of movement, freedom of movement is a founding principal of the treaty of Rome and as you say in your last post, relates to “equal access to welfare for workers”

      Can you see the key word there? if not I’ll give you a clue, It begins with “w” and ends with “s”…(and it does not mean people without a job turning up in the UK and expecting welfare payments)…nobody here should be arguing about the what migrant workers are entitled to, I’m certainly not

      ..and Yvetta, I feel it is quite hypocritical for you to critisise others for repeating the same thing over and over again, you have done nothing on here for days apart from accuse others of racism…this is a debating forum for the European Union and people are entitled to have a negative view of EU policies without having stereotypical labels applied

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      I Give you a clue, there is a word beginning zit “l”, ending with “w” and a “a” in the middle. Get familiar with it…

      And there is a lot of case law on freedom of movement,just look on eur-leX.

      And look into Article 21of the treaty on the European unit. But I am sure it’should too much learning for you to handle.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Hi Paul , I think you misunderstood. What I was referring to was people repeating views that are being held out there by a big part of the population unquestioningly and without ever having seen any evidence to support it. People believe it simply because they hear it from many people and never question it. I wasn’t referring to one person saying the same thing to someone that keeps recycling the same empty argument to defend themselves. Trust that makes sense this time.

  63. avatar
    EU reform- proactive

    To rely on the “freedom of markets” in everything (from trading goods to trading people) is the dream of the powerful global corporations, NWO & their handful beneficiaries. We know where it comes from & who supports such “freedoms”. THEY do not care if the social fabric of the majority or the natural environment is permanently damaged or destroyed!

    Sorry, but some “freedoms” for a few are burdens for others & come in disguise of hidden agendas. No thank you. No “segregation” needed either- only proportional control!

    It is the EU treaty encyclopedia with its myriad of regulations which became much to complicated & need to be simplified. Reasonable & measured alien control existed already for decades in all sovereign countries!

  64. avatar
    Maura

    Giovanni, Yvetta, this discussion may be over. But you cannot change someone’s best intentions. When literacy and knowledge are absent a discussion cannot be held!
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.” – Plato

  65. avatar
    Ericbanner

    Martin,sorry you have no idea,you clearly think that overpopulation ,mass migration and in particular the strain on the local infrastructure in those areas is a very secondary issue to the “economic benefits ” that migrants bring.
    Quite honestly its people with your attitude that fuels discontent as you completely fail to address the impact on the indigenous populations when faced with massive increases in demand for houses,school places,health care etc.
    Its no great surprise to anyone with half a brain that france are now at loggerheads with italy over border controls and many other EU members are looking at border restrictions,
    It may be coming to a head because of the migrant problem from north africa but the principle applies across the whole of Europe.
    Benefit tourism most certainly DOES exist,just because you dont believe it doesn’t mean its not true.

  66. avatar
    Giovanni Verdi

    The crisis situation between France and Italy is related to the wave of refugees from the southern side of the Mediterranean Sea. It has nothing to do with migrants from EU Member States. Anyone having a fourth of a brain would know that, certainly you are not one of them.

    The protectionist approach you advocate is the same that led the European nations to restrict trade between the two world wars. Ultimately, it help initiate WW2, so be aware of that.
    Furthermore, none of you Euroskeptics has brought a shred of evidence to support the claims that migrants make host State’s economies less well off or that welfare tourism exists. Remember, onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit. Look it up. A small clue, that’s latin.

    • avatar
      Ericbanner

      Giovanni,the two situations are most definately linked,you say migration within the EU is a separate issue,this not so. It is a fact that there has been mass movement from poorer members of the EU to those countries who make the largest financial contribution,as a result there are some member states with a large net population who migrate to other member states.So it is a simple indisputable fact that some countries are becoming more and more overcrowded whilst others slowly empty.
      The African situation simply exacerbates the problem,as hundreds of thousands of migrants succeed in reaching Europe illegally and then move into countries,some of which are already overcrowded.
      Once again It becomes necessary to point out that there is a clear difference between the “economic benefits” of migration and the simple unavoidable fact that there are now countries in Europe that are literally full up.
      So once again I ask you.
      Where are these migrants to live given that there are no empty houses ?
      Where are they to be educated given that the schools are full ?
      How can they obtain healthcare given that the existing system is at bursting point?
      You are typical of the kind of person who seems to consider everything in terms of economics are Not in terms of overcrowding and mass influx of people who were never invited to be there.So again ,how would you address the points I have raised,you seem unwilling to even consider them,and by the way,I am medically trained and understand latin quite well thank you.You assume a great deal Giovanni

    • avatar
      Giovanni Verdi

      If you are educated, your burden of proving this claim of saturation is even greater.
      and I insist economics are the only way of telling prejudices and perception from the reality. Overcrowdedness should be a measurable phenomenon. Nobody here has yet tried to give any evidence beyond urban myths and perceptions. Of course myths and perceptions are not to be addressed, measurable facts are.

      For instance, how does your perception square with the fact that no crowds of Romania n’s and Bulgaria n’s showed up to Britain after theit restrictions were lifted?
      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/30/no-surge-romanian-bulgarian-migrants-controls-lifted

      I don’t assume much, I demand evidence. And again the claim is yours, so as the onus provandi.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Furthermore, none of you Europhiles has brought a shred of evidence to support the claims that migrants make host State’s economies better off…(not including reports which themselves state they contain no facts just opinions)

      I would suggest to you that there is at least one EU migrant in the UK who is here with the sole intention of claiming all they can, therefore welfare tourism exists……. if you think otherwise then as you say “onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit”

    • avatar
      Ericbanner

      Moderators …..Why was my reply to Giovanni deleted ?

  67. avatar
    EU reform- proactive

    “Advocatus nascitur, non fit.”

  68. avatar
    Maura

    This should be a simple discussion on whether recent EU migrants should be denied benefit. It is clear that, yes, a “new recent migrant”cannot get any benefits. The law is very specific and has been decided, not by this audience but at higher level!
    The conversation is instead turning racist for no reason. Whatever the opinions, it remains a fact that anyone working in a country and paying contributions and having residence in that country, has a right to get a pension and benefits based on the contributions paid. I have nothing else to add or subtract. Good luck and be happy. Life is too short to get angry about mankind! What humanity needs is love!

  69. avatar
    Ott Toomet

    A solution is a European welfare system, directly funded by EU and equally open to all EU residents. This would probably be rather little, and member states may beef it up with their own benefits. Otherwise I cannot see a way to treat equally those who move a lot, and those who stay in just one country for most of their life. As a side note, if we had such a system in place, it would also lessen the current humanitarian crisis in Greece.

    Alternatively, one might consider a welfare system that directly relates your work contribution to what you are entitled to. This would be true to everyone, not just migrants. However, there are also native welfare abusers, and more importantly, there are large well-known groups who are contributing little while receiving a lot. These groups will suffer under such an approach.

  70. avatar
    Maura

    I am in agreement Ott Toomet. You have great ideas. In fact in several states in the EU, someone takes benefits based n thei past income. If someone has worked continuously for over 1 year, then that person will get a monthly amount calculated over the average wages of the last 3 payslips. This is given for at least 1 year and then it decrease by time if another job is not found. Those that have not worked will get no benefits at all. The same should happen in the UK. Last night there was a documentary in TV and a gentleman from the council has shared a public information saying that 95% of those in benefits are British so he couldn’t understand why there was this hate against the migrants.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Whoever it was is clearly stupid then. Even if his 95% figure is accurate (possibly for his council area but it will vary greatly across the UK) the issue is we should not have to accept the additional 5% to add to the existing welfare burden …….and that is the topic of this thread

      I’m fed up with people claiming just because we have an existing element of benefit scroungers in our population then that justifies the claim that we have to accept immigrant benefit scroungers………two wrongs don’t make it a right

    • avatar
      Ott Toomet

      Paul,
      in that case one should fight the benefit scroungers. Including those who are immigrants. But those who need should still be entitled to benefits, including immigrants.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      He is ok with the British ones. It’s the non-British ones he has an issue with. But he is not a racist…and he also doesn’t need to see any figures or hear official data because he has walked the streets of Britain and he knows it all. He he he! You get the picture.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      So where was the other 5% from, Maura? EU or non-EU?

    • avatar
      Steve P

      I agree Paulx that 5% is a massive play down even 1 % is way too much .Immigrants should get NO benefits at all ,that also applies to housing too.The British people have had enough and will vote so on leaving the EU i for one cannot wait .Be some party Yvetta you should come.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      @ Ott Toomet

      Yes, I have never disagreed with that. I believe we have an indigenous benefit abuse problem which I would hope the UK authorities are working on…but this topic is about migrants and people should stop throwing in irrelevant issue just for the sake of creating arguments

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      Paulx leave it mate,she is clearly abit half-witted to carry on with her is pointless .But I agree with you totally

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      And to round off the unprofessional image, here comes the (attempted) personal insult to add to the spelling disaster. Some people are just totally hopeless and you can understand why they feel the need to defend their right and fight for those benefits…Best of luck, Stephen…

    • avatar
      Steve P

      Let them fight for benefits in there own countries then.We do not want or need them.Thanks

  71. avatar
    Maura

    Hi Yvetta, Thanks for your kind acknowledgment. The council officer (you might have seen the documentary as it was few days ago at 9 pm and there has benn also a repeated version) said that the 95% were all British claimants and the rest of 5% were from Europe. The reason being that the law forbids applications from non EU migrants. Therefore after integration these people (non Europeans) would be part of the 95% because in order to remain in the UK they must hold a British passport. I honestly don’t know any single European that is taking benefits and some people that have applied is because of being long term resident in the UK, over 15/20 years and lost a job due to redundancy. I am not making any comments or opinions on my own, but these are just statistics. By the way, I speak fluently 5 languages, hold high qualifications and skills which are highly “on request” and have seen a lot outside the UK. I love languages, traditions and cultures. I feel that being human beings is only one chance in life and I appreciate anyone that has a different point of view. However, said that, I find that racism and intolerance generates into extremism and terrorism. I am against it and the law forbids it.

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      It may forbid it for now but the mass invasion of migrants both Non EU and EU mostly very un welcome I might add,the rise has started of far right organisations in many countries and who can blame them.
      Integration in massive levels does not work and causes tensions and violence.UK needs to leave the EU it is a joke and please take its people with it.We should only take the migrants we want and need,we are not here to provide for every other citizen let there own countries pay.

  72. avatar
    Paul X

    Back to basics… the question of this topic:

    “Should recent EU migrants be denied entitlement to welfare?”

    For those who only come here to widen the argument, bitch, moan and throw insults at people the question seems to be:

    “With 95% of UK benefit scroungers being indigenous what right do UK taxpayers have to complain about an additional 5% on the welfare bill from EU migration?”

    Carry on debating……….

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Hi Paul, no you are misrepresenting things. The comment made by us here was why do people mind paying 5% of benefits to EU migrants but do not mind paying 95% to British migrants. Definitely, judging by the numbers, it is not out of financial concern. In a number of responses, the only argument you have provided was of no factual basis but was based on an assumption made by you, so, unfortunately, the only explanation left is that people who support that view, are being discriminatory towards EU migrants. I can understand that you are getting increasingly frustrated at the fact that you have been unable to come up with any logical explanation for your views, and your language is now verging on the abusive, however, this debate here exactly is for people to express their views and, if you cannot handle this and you see it as “bitching, moaning and throwing insults at people” simply because they expose your lack of arguments, the best thing you can do is to stay away from this debate. You will not be intimidating people out of expressing their views here and making it obvious that you have no ammunition.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yvetta, the only thing “frustrating” me is people’s inability to read and understand the written word..I can only assume after this length of debate, it must be deliberate?

      “The comment made by us here was why do people mind paying 5% of benefits to EU migrants but do not mind paying 95% to British migrants”

      To use your own words “you are misrepresenting things” ….I’ve never said I do not mind paying welfare to UK scroungers….I can assure you I do……….. but this thread is about EU migrants and I’m trying to do whats called “keeping on topic”

      ..and what more “logical explanation for my views” do I need to give apart from I don’t like my taxes being spent on welfare scroungers (whether they be UK residents or EU migrants).. it’s not an argument so I don’t need to back it up with any “facts”, it’s whats called an opinion, I’m entitled to it and I’m sorry but I really can’t put it any simpler

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Well, Paul, I am glad that you have changed your tune after all. What you are saying now is very different to : “at least if it is being done by an indigenous person there is the chance that somewhere down the line there has been a parent or relative of that person who has contributed to British society, that at least gives a slight legitimacy to their actions over someone who has just turned up at the airport.”
      It would seem this debate has not been in vain :-)!

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      @Yvetta

      Why should we pay for other EU countries citizens like in the case of many polish who get there benefits sent home ,how disgusting and dishonest is that bur then again what do you expect for these people.
      You quote percentages 0.1% of abuse of our benefit system is wrong and should result in prison and then deportation the sooner were out of this pathetic EU club the better.
      One final thing I see the unrest due to immigration has started in Germany now only a matter of time before the deaths start,do you think mass immigration and freedom of movement is working now Yvetta.

  73. avatar
    Paul X

    Yvetta, I’m flattered that despite outward appearances you do actually pay attention to what I write…;-)

    Unfortunately you seem to have deliberately ignored the importance of the word “slight” (legitimacy). The comment was in response to people who claim there is no difference between the two cases, my reply was a suggestion as to why someone may be slightly higher up the “undeserving scale” than another.
    But I can assure you my tune is unchanged in that neither is high enough on the scale to deserve my hard earned taxes

    Glad you enjoyed the debate, though next time it would be nice if people kept on topic…

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Well, Paul, it is a good sign you won’t accept the change in your way of thinking. This shows regret for your past views. Hopefully, soon you will drop the far-right language as well, and then you can actually be sure you are a nice person.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Yvetta, if you think that objecting to giving people something for nothing is “far right” then you clearly have no comprehension of what the far right really is

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Hi Paul, just to be clear that objecting to giving only certain people something for nothing based on their nationality, when the law says they are entitled to it, is discriminatory. Please, stop twisting your own words around hoping to confuse and make excuses for your own views, that you clearly are embarrassed to now admit to.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      HI Yvetta, just to be even clearer, I have said several times now that I object to giving anybody something for nothing, regardless of who they are, but (how many times do in need to repeat it?) this thread is about migrants

      It was not me who introduced the subject of UK national welfare claimants, that was done by people to try and fudge the issue and create arguments and detract from what should be under discussion

      …and maybe the (current) law does say what people are entitled to, but Debating Europe asks a question (at the top of this thread in case you’ve forgotten it) and freedom of speech allows people to answer it…..are you saying anyone who dares to answer no, is right wing and racist?……in which case I suggest you are well suited to a career in the EU because that is how they run a referendum (ask a question but only one answer is permitted)……………… unless that is, you already work for them?

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Hi Paul, you say now that my comment is off topic. So why did you respond to it then and felt the need to defend Tarquin’s view? Obviously, you didn’t think or say that it was off topic to start with. Only when you lost the argument. You’re a bad loser, Paul, and there is nothing more to it.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Hello Yvetta… if you care to explain exactly what argument I have lost then I will gladly admit defeat and order myself a “bad loser” badge…there is no argument as far as I’m concerned, just opinions

      I’m answering “yes” to the question raised by Debating Europe based on my opinion that people who haven’t contributed to a welfare system shouldn’t benefit from it, I’m sure that must be easy to understand?

      The arguments are being created from those who claim because there are already plenty of UK nationals claiming benefits who haven’t contributed I’m being discriminatory (or even racist according to you?)

      Well I’m sorry but that reasoning is utter tosh…. we already have plenty of criminals in the UK so.if we try to stop EU migrant criminals entering the UK are we being discriminatory?

      As I already said, two wrongs do not make a right…we may have an existing welfare problem but that is no justification for deliberately allowing it to get worse

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Please tell me exactly what argument I have lost?…my opinion is the same as it was at the start of this debate and up to now no-one has put up a good reason why my opinion is unacceptable

      I’ve never accused you of taking things off topic, bringing up the unrelated issue of UK welfare claimants was done by someone else (and to be honest I cant be bothered looking back to see exactly who)….. but you have been guilty of jumping on their bandwagon and continuing to use an irrelevant issue to try and justify your argument

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Paul, LOL! No need to lose your mind as well!

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Tut tut Yvetta..now who wrote this?

      “Ha ha, when all else fails…, a personal attack comes in handy”

      ..far be it for me to from lose anything, you can blame DE for taking over a day and a half to put up my first post…. but I’m not making excuses..I think sometimes it needs at least two posts for people to get the message

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Ha ha, Paul, you know, I like you a lot but I haven’t got the time to carry on eternally repeating the same thing over again. You can just scroll up and you will get all the answers to your questions. No need to repeat myself.

  74. avatar
    Stephen Pockley

    Yvetta I fail to see how Paulx is using far right language,when In today’s Guardian a reputable paper even for you Yvetta a political columnist and massive lefty Owen Jones has said that labour should now campaign to leave the EU .hardly far right

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Stephen, you have failed indeed to even get the basics of the exchange. Never mind…

  75. avatar
    Stephen Pockley

    Yvetta
    I understand the exchange perfectly well thank you in your case it is very simple.
    You have a massive dislike for us British,you have taken up a bit of a hate campaign on Paulx accusing him repeatedly of been far right which we all know means racist ,something you have called him a few times on here.Also a couple of times now you have referred to me being of low intelligence.However I suspect that it may be you that maybe slow in grasping things.
    Because anyone who thinks it is fine for some non British person or persons to come to our country and instantly claim benefits without contributing first ,must be in view a little slow.Or maybe you are one of these migrants that has done this previously.I’m sorry if this is not the case.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Stephen, my responses to you are here on this page for anyone that is interested to read and so are yours. People can draw their own conclusions as to what has been said, what has not been said and what has been assumed. I don’t really feel that I need to respond to you anything further.

  76. avatar
    DNA Cowboy

    My research has found that migrants from countries that follow Islam are far more likely to be welfare dependent. For example, in the EU 75% of Muslim women are unemployed and 50% of the men. Why? I have no idea, they have exactly the same opportunity for work as others yet seemingly rely more of welfare. This analysis leaves me extremely concerned for the growth of ‘ghettoisation’ as well as the fomration of so-called ‘parallel societies’ operating along politico-religious lines across the developed world as similar results appear in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    • avatar
      Yvetta

      Not many jobs you can do when you have to pray 5 times a day…

  77. avatar
    σαντυ αλεξανδρου

    There is no insurance for people who do not work and are poor in my country..They do not exist for the Greek state but also for the EU.
    The migrants in my country have more rights and have the right to go to hospitals or see doctors for free but the Greek people don’t.

  78. avatar
    σαντυ αλεξανδρου

    There is no insurance for people who do not work and are poor in my country..They do not exist for the Greek state but also for the EU.
    The migrants in my country have more rights and have the right to go to hospitals or see doctors for free but the Greek people don’t.

  79. avatar
    Joey Stack

    As Ivan said, the EU will not do anything to rectify these problems as it would admit that the integration and free movement policies have failed; which they quite obviously are, but the EU will never admit that, because apparently the EU can never do anything wrong

  80. avatar
    Joey Stack

    As Ivan said, the EU will not do anything to rectify these problems as it would admit that the integration and free movement policies have failed; which they quite obviously are, but the EU will never admit that, because apparently the EU can never do anything wrong

  81. avatar
    Georgi Tashev

    No, EU must think for the euro citizens, and IF and WHEN all is done, then can look for something else….. People in Bulgaria suffer, because EU DO NOT care for them. Why ? And why, when EU do not step up and help Bulgarians, must care for arabic terrorists coming into EU as ‘migrants”…. At the moment, one migrant cost 550 Euros in Bulgaria, paid by the poor bulgarian people. But the sallary in Bulgaria is 250 Euros, pension 125 Euros. When by statistic to live in Bulgaria one person need at least 300 Euros….. On top of what EU do not care for this euro citizens? On top of what, when so many people suffer and struggle in Bulharia, EU look for migrants…. Stupid question. SHAME.

  82. avatar
    Georgi Tashev

    No, EU must think for the euro citizens, and IF and WHEN all is done, then can look for something else….. People in Bulgaria suffer, because EU DO NOT care for them. Why ? And why, when EU do not step up and help Bulgarians, must care for arabic terrorists coming into EU as ‘migrants”…. At the moment, one migrant cost 550 Euros in Bulgaria, paid by the poor bulgarian people. But the sallary in Bulgaria is 250 Euros, pension 125 Euros. When by statistic to live in Bulgaria one person need at least 300 Euros….. On top of what EU do not care for this euro citizens? On top of what, when so many people suffer and struggle in Bulharia, EU look for migrants…. Stupid question. SHAME.

  83. avatar
    Bart Vd B

    1) Brittain (as many European) countries gathered their vast wealth from colonising, enslaving and exploiting some of the very countries the now immigrants seek refuge 2) Instead of spending vast ammounts of money on keeping them out or on providing them with welfare, try and improve the living standards in their countries so they don’t have to leave in the first place

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Exactly and Britain is the second highest contributor of overseas aid in the world only the US spends more…now go preach this to the rest of the EU

  84. avatar
    nando

    EU countries want immigrants as a source of cheap labor and to shore up low birth rates. Right? Well, with these benefits come costs. There is no free lunch, right?
    Each country should decide their own cost/benefits. Why does it have be the EU who has to set up rules?
    I think it is time for the EU to really think about a VISION of what it wants to be, define a MISSION it wants to fulfill in the world and then consider how these individual little issues (as per charts above we are talking about 1% impact) should be handled.

  85. avatar
    Rui Correia

    Yes, of course.
    The EU is supposed to be a “partnership” between European countries, and not “some countries taking advantage of others’ welfare systems”.
    Even with free movement in place, a person should only be entitled to any type of welfare after contributing to the system for some time, i.e. 4 or 5 years, without taking money out of it for some time also. The right to use a country’s welfare system has to be EARNED, not given away randomly.
    Either that, or all systems and fiscal policies would have to be merged into one big European system… and I don’t see that happening…

  86. avatar
    Fernanda de Oliveira

    Everyone that lives in a country must have the same rights. If EU doesn’t want migrants why do it sell arms and do deals with corrupt local politicians that destroy the migrants origine countries. This is all about hypocrisy…

  87. avatar
    Nickson O Iyoha

    Need I remind you that the majority of migrants in Europe are from poor European nations.e.g Albania, Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia,Romania, Poland, turkey,Ukraine and meddle east. Just few hundreds come from Africa. So when discussing EU migration don’t mention Africa again.

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      Only a few hundred are you for real there are tens of thousands from Eritrea,Nigeria and other sub Sahara countries,please do some research before you post .

  88. avatar
    Toni Muñiz

    Yes reform is needed. Start by not providing non European migrants welfare benefits.

  89. avatar
    Tola アキンチペ

    I love the ignorance of some of the comments on here. This article is about EU Migrants – you know people from the EU moving to another EU country.

    But some on here hear the word “migrant” and automatically associated that with non EU individuals moving and having access to welfare when the article is actually referring to you.

    But carry on with your ignorance.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      I don’t see ignorance, every country can legally put in place whatever restrictions it wants to prevent non EU migrants abusing their welfare system…..the discussion her has come about because there is nothing whatsoever they can do about EU migrants doing the same

  90. avatar
    Ferenc Lázár

    Why would you deny the welfare system from an E.U. national, but in the same time you would provide it to refugees from Africa#Asia?! What is the meaning and concept of E.U. than, the free “movements” for business corporations and finances???

  91. avatar
    Antonio Santos

    europe is litle for so many people, if we whant to help the migrants, we should help them in their countries, the european face already problems like unemployment, poorness, etc,

  92. avatar
    Ferenc Lázár

    The approach of Nickson O Iyoha shows exactly how the migrants from Africa think of E.U. Countries- that we owe them wellbeing and social welfare because of past history of slavery…he also says he would teach me European history because in his country they thought him better about Europe..well, you should learn one thing forever# we never had slavery in the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, therefore we owe you nothing more than a warning! We are not France, neither U.K
    where we believe your lies about refugee status!

  93. avatar
    Ferenc Lázár

    Ivan Burrows, we let you have all African refugees as my country, the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy never had any colonies! And don’t tell us that you, in the 21-th century are not responsible, because there are still British Petrol and others involved in taking out resources in present…

  94. avatar
    Alex Van Daniken

    i thing we should go to work and cooperate in each others countries not to abuse them so cut the benefits of and let it be :)

  95. avatar
    eusebio manuel vestias pecurto

    It´s hard to see this messin the world that have been created without any solutions The reason we have a lot of illegal immigration is because illegal immigration is sufficient we can absolve people because Europe is no longer a paradise The immigrants have every right to sanitation and food stamp and housing

  96. avatar
    Maura

    Unfortunately many people in the UK do not have sanitation, food or housing. Have you seen how poor people live? The UK should take care of its own citizens first.

  97. avatar
    bert

    To be treated like the local is a foudamental pillar of the EU treaty. Immagine that “one” is working alongside a local and the local takes time off sick, and get the time off payed, but when an immigrant takes time off, the sick pay is refused, this is not social justice under in any circumstances! (This is only one minor example)

  98. avatar
    Orangeutanman

    I believe migration offers up the best of all world’s, and is predominantly positive for the host nations, however there are people who take advantage, but they are not all migrants! There are many home nationals who take advantage too. Many home nationals who are complacent and leech the system. But I do believe that unless all member states offer the same benefits or a central system is set up, an unfair burden (for want of a better word) is placed on members like the UK including the NHS. If not all nations have to match the same level of benefits, then what right (without being hypocritical) does anyone have to govern the benefit systems of these nations under greatest burden?

  99. avatar
    Orangeutanman

    What I’m saying is partly put up or shut up! And partly don’t change the system for those who work, change it for those who can’t be bothered!

  100. avatar
    Doru Adonis Izuel

    Definetly NO ! What would be the point of the “union” then ? Should someone that is from another region of your country be denied that because he works in a different region ?!

  101. avatar
    Bita Nahal Peace

    Not entirely to all benefits like housing, but certainly to other benefits, specially if they are fit and able to work at least 30 hours per week

  102. avatar
    Olivier Dutreil

    Yes.no tax no rights…welfare is for european citizens….and aid to thirld world countries to help them ro develop themselves..i remind you they fought for freedom against colonisation.they have it they keep it at home….

  103. avatar
    António Barreto

    No; european can´t save all the refugees, but must honeur its humanism and solidarity to the victims of war.

  104. avatar
    Wendy Harris

    British people are being denied entitlement to welfare. More than 2,500 people have died as a direct result of welfare sanctions. A million depend on the charity of food banks, sick and disabled are forced to live in poverty. Why should migrants receive welfare that is being denied to our most vulnerable citizens?

  105. avatar
    Franck Néo Legon

    of course. no citizenship = no welfare. citizenship should be earned by labor on 2 or more generations. only migrants which have a valid officialy registered demand from a boss with a job awaiting them should be granted, and they should go back home in a month after their job contract is finished, unless they find another one. employers should be allowed to ask for imigrant workers only if the job to be done has found no european citizen to do it in a law-specified lapse. we are allready too many in Europe, and the more we are, the poorer we get .

  106. avatar
    مشیر بارسلونا

    Absolutely yes… because most of the immigrants are attracted to EU for easy life; social benefits are their prime aim. (a research can be conducted on that to find facts, I volunteer myself for conducting such research)

  107. avatar
    Σαντυ Μπαλμπαγάδη

    Even the citizens of the countries don’t have health protection,welfare and rights.We don’t in our country.I believe that eventually we the citizens will explode.

  108. avatar
    bert

    In short, the UK does not belive in free movement (Schengen), does not believe in the Euro, does not believe in a closer union, does not believe in the European Human rights, does not believe in the formation of an’ European-army, does not believe in taking in a share of refugee, (I stop the list now). In fact the politician around europe should ask themselves what the UK agrees on. Perhaps, the would agree that they are prejudist against all foreign people going to the UK.

  109. avatar
    Richard

    I feel, that if i cannot receive social welfare in your country you can not cannot receive it here. Acting as social office for the third world, is not free, there is reason for all the cutbacks on schools, hospitals, you name it.

  110. avatar
    Paul Rice

    Of course they should not have limited access to welfare , they have never paid into any welfare system in the EU . Even EU citizens who have paid into welfare in their own countries have to wait for 3 months after starting work in a new EU country to benefit from from welfare .
    That is why unauthorised migrants ( not even asylum seekers) try to get into the EU , as they expect to get welfare payments

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