Should they stay or should they go? With less than a month left on the clock until the UK leaves (“do or die, come what may”), a great deal of uncertainty remains. After three years of arduous negotiations, the UK and the EU have so far failed to reach a deal on the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration. Within the UK, this has further polarised attitudes towards Europe; on the one side there are those who advocate crashing out of the EU no matter what the consequences, and on the other are those in favour of reversing Brexit altogether.
If a deal can’t be reached over the Withdrawal Agreement (which covers the ‘divorce bill’, citizens’ rights, the two-year transition period during which a future relationship will be negotiated, and the ‘Irish backstop’ if the transition period expires without a long-term UK-EU deal being agreed), then the default legal position is a ‘no deal Brexit’. If that happens, the UK will leave the EU without a transition period, and presumably would then begin negotiating its future relationship with the EU from there.
‘No deal’ is the position taken by many Brexiteer politicians in the UK who believe that the country can thrive outside the EU bloc, trading under WTO rules. They dismiss stories of disruptions to food and medicine supplies as ‘Project Fear’. They vow to vote against a deal no matter what Boris Johnson comes back from Brussels with, and want to see him sidestep the legal requirement (passed by Parliament and signed into law by the Queen) to request a negotiating extension from Brussels.
For those who advocate staying in the EU, however, there is a growing sense of urgency. The Liberal Democrats have pledged to revoke Article 50 altogether (effectively cancelling Brexit without a referendum) if their leader, Jo Swinson, were to become Prime Minister. At the same time, the campaign for a second referendum / People’s Vote continues to gain momentum.
Should Britain leave the European Union? What do you think the future relationship between the UK and the EU should be? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
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They can try!!!
They choose to leave, now they have to.
Bye bye.
Is up to them
Probably will be but that means they will be left alone it will be hard times for them
Harder times for the EU having to survive on 8 Billion euros less that the UK currently contributes to their budget
The UK runs a 79% Trade Deficit with the EU and has the majority of its product and service standards accepted as the norm both at EU and ISO levels. So nothing is likely to change vis-a-vis trade as it would hurt the EU more than the UK. All that would happen is that the UK would save money, certainly more than that lost via any offsets.
Harder I guess for the EU losing their 2nd largest Net Contributor to the EU coffers.
Yeah whatever, you can stick your EU up your continental dirt bikes boxes, we’re Britons not Europeans
Dump the EU then watch it collapse we don’t need to pay and have them making our laws, one armed forces, one flag, one currency I like our flag our currency and most of all our own rules. Kindly fuck odd and take your communism with you.
You really don’t understand. It’s not what you (netto) pay, the 7.3 billion, but what your economy earns by doing so. You can easily multiply this figure. Its the same with us Dutch. We netto pay 2,4 billion but it shown to be a gain of over 12 billion for our economy. So stop nagging and complaining and start reading the right figures…
@Adri
what you say is utter nonsense. Those reports claiming that the EU is so beneficial are written by Europhiles who lie and manipulate every statistic.
We in Netherlands would be better off out, too. And we aren’t even done talking about the great betrayal when our socalled politicians committed treason by passing the undemocratic Lisbon Treaty.
@adri
I always lol’ed at this one.
since when making hte cash flow an hand to an other makes one overall richier?
Truth is not a matter of economics here (on which point UK is already doing better than the eurozone, precisely because they didn’t adopt the doomed curency) but symply a democratic probablem really:
The EU is undemocratic. It’s construction has been undemocratic. And in hard time, I am not seeing it becoming more democratic…
@Krisitian : what the stupid talk about left alone in hard times? When is this suppose to happen?In case you haven’t notice, hard times IS NOW. EuroZone has the lowest growth in the world, youth unemployement is more than 50% in greece, not far behind Spain, Portugal and France…
If creating an union was such a good idea, why not the USA are not merging with Canada and Mexico, adopting let say…the Amro? China+Japan+Singapour and South Korea maybe?
Yeah I don’t see that happen any ime soon…
And having 1 vote out of 27 is so advantageous inside the e.u. being able to make trade deals ourselves instead of dealing through Brussels.The U.K. has a seat as of right at most of the powerful organisations The U.N. NATO. Inside the e.u. they are just americas european poodle nothing more.
its important to stay in the EU for business. Most of the UKs business is with the EU.
Maybe hard times for a while. But I’m British and I can tell you my car insurance Went from £400 to £800 under the EU legislation. And the UK had hundreds of pieces of legislation from the EU. The EU is nothing more than a Dictatorship, leading us to world governance, world army and world policing. Research it yourselves. The New Workd Order and Satanism.
Yes. If London is unable to folow all of EU rules than it should quit
@Michal Majtan
The UK wants to leave the EU because the EU is too corrupt and too because the UK gives far too much to the EU for too little.
@Michal Majtan
That sounds akin to the excuses used by the Nazis post-WW2.
If the EU rules are corrupt or grossly unfair – why should the UK adopt them?
It’s not just Londons decision it’s the decision of the Whole UK
British people have to choose it
We choose we are leaving
They wont leave mark my words, imigrations will be on highlight across EU soon starting with Italy.
Well lets see, personally its only one vote for me and that is for UK to leave the European Circus.
We are leaving bye bye
are they realy in?
Hahaha! Good question! And funny! :))
No we are not really in. This is what the UK needs to decide. Do we leave or do we accept that the halfway house the UK resides in must be demolished and the UK must become a full and active member.
Are they in Europe? Really?
No we are not really in. This is what the UK needs to decide. Do we leave or do we accept that the halfway house the UK resides in must be demolished and the UK must become a full and active member.
Depends what you define as “in”
If you mean do we pay in, then we most certainly do
If you mean do the British people want their taxes to be continually poured down the EU drain then most certainly not
Europe is a geographic zone, and they definetly are.
The European Union, is a political union, which can be very debated
Not really the British were never in favour of European Union as it is now. It just wanted to be a member in the ECC to trade its goods and services europe wide and compete with the rest of the countries by whatever means. The UK wants to lead the EU and always be at an advantage over the rest of the club members, just like it used to run its empire.The UK can never be a European member untill such time its accepts that role of a member instead of running the EU.
I thought the Germans ran the club. It feels like Chancellor Merkel gets the final say in all the decisions. Cameron is her lap dog. We won’t leave Europe it’s a geographical. We do need to leave a controlling political entity that has no true democratic process.
No to mention Merkel flooding Germany with economic migrants and putting her own people in danger, who knows how many rapists, murderers or terrorists she let in. Not to mention cheap labour, which will make even more unemployment for her own countrymen
This is for Beth..the UK traded with many countries before joining the EU. The EU didn’t want that, it wants full domination of the UK and all the other member countries. So the UK do business with Europe, because the EU made it that way. There’s a whole load of other countries the U.K. Are now FREE to trade with. The EU is corrupt, it’s the Nazis all over again. Trying to take over the world using economic means rather than bombs. Do we really want to be part of a global fraternity that is so evil and corrupt. Do you know what the EU has by way of a monument outside of its building? Do you know what it’s building shape is based on? It costs the UK 27bn £ to be in the EU.
Whilst benefits of the old, the disabled, etc., has been cut back to the point people are killing themselves because they cannot cope. Since the EU foreign doctors nurses dentists have come to work in the UK, some of them cannot even speak English! And yet my sister, a specialist doctor in the USA with 30 years experience cannot come back here where she was born and work as a doctor!!!!! Is that really democratic? Believe me, there is nothing democratic about the EU, it dictates the UKs laws, that makes the EU a facist dictatorship. Research research research!
I don’t know anymore!!!! UK can do very well with Europeans instead of standing alone!!!
We can do a lot better on our own to deal with the world, we don’t even have a seat at the world trade organisation anymore, it’s bad for the UK we sell them a lot less that they sell us. There is no negatives in leaving as far as I am concerned.
We stood alone in Europe twice before & Europe will be eternally in our debt for doing so. We should stand alone again.
We will do even better out of the EU we can trade with the whole world
UK must be throwned out so Europe can federalize.
That’s just dumb.
I agree! Only too happy to be thrown out.
@Mihai Rusu
If the UK leaves the EU it will take decades longer for Romania to become a wealthy and civilized nation, if ever…
Yes please
I hope they do Chuck us out. The celebrations will be awsome. We beea the Germans once and will not allow them to rule us by stealth
Whatever pleases the Brits – it’s their choice. The EU is a democratic block!
The EU was never a democratic block
The one thing that Europe isn’t is democratic, and that is the main reason that the UK wants out. We never were asked, and never wanted to join a Political Union, we asked to join a trading union. Ask France or Holland how democratic the EU is – they voted on and rejected the constitution, and still got it in the form of the Lisbon treaty! The EU is a smiling dicatorship.
Hahahahahahaha what a joke.
The EU is democratic……..The Dutch and French voted against the ref in 2005, and as an answer the politicians turned everything around, gave it another name and moved on as scheduled!!!!
Democracy and the EU……….hahahahahahahahhahahahaha
agree.. it is up to them.. it is democracy if they wish to leave, they have their right to do that..
I do not know. In the short term, such a divorce will be messy and problematic for both sides, but probably more so for the UK.
In the long run, the UK´s sleek economic policies will likely mitigate any fallout, and in some ways it is in a better position than the ageing, policy hesitant continent.
UK is leaving EU but UK will join EFTA. Mark my words!
juncker and merkel already promised if brexit is for real there won’t be free trade agreement so they will lose roughly around 320bln pounds sterling of GDP. so the real question here is not whether they wanna be free self governing nation, but in fact is are they truly prepared to pay the price because without the trade agreement, all the trade negotiations are ran by a eu commissioner,who is also under Jean claude Juncker’s office. so from my point of you is really about trade and economy and not to forget they will be cut off from the euro market as well and lose control of freely moving the euro via the ECB so all these matters might lead to some very serious complications in the future.
agreed. the EU always says if some nation leaves it will be penalized but i am certain that would not happen to the UK
No way EU would just let them go and then sign all the arrangements with them again. EU will be playing hard to get, if UK leaves
The UK runs a 79% Trade Deficit with the EU. In otherwords the EU sells 79% more goods to the UK than the UK buys from them. So any form of protectionism would hurt the EU more than it affects the UK. If you want to cut of your nose to spite your face whilst going through a recession that the UK has left behind then that would be up to you; somehow though I doubt it.
I agree! Only too happy to be thrown out.
Vondaniken – Britain in not a member of the Euro so doesn’t need to worry about access to the ECB.
As to free trade – the EU countries, including Germany, export (sell) far more to the UK than we do to them. So blocking a free trade agreement, putting up barriers or generally throwing their toys out of the pram is going to hurt their countries far more than ours.
@Borislav Valkov
or NAFTA
or a Commonwealth equivalent.
GetOutOfEurope May 8th, 2015 I dare you to put it to a test i dare you brittons. And mark my words when i tell you that brussels and germany already considered Brexit. I mean misses Merkel is called the iron lady of Germany. She is well known for that when Helmut Khol Left German policy under a big scandal and she was a minister during his administration, and she made it look like he was the only one responsible. So there’s no doubt she will make it look like that Dave is the one to blame for brexit,
Second very important the other four nations especially the scots and the welsh wants to be part in the EU, so if they are not to count the votes separately by the country, U might destroy the union that have been building in the past 3 centuries.
And third about Borislav Valkov comment and on EFTA they will still have to accept migrants from the EU and apply the Schengen laws and will not have the say so about EU anymore. But is unlike to trade with EU after they left because merkel and juncker already promised to cameron if its a no vote they will not sign the agreement!
Vondaniken,
What a load of tripe.
1. Where do you get £320bn of GDP from. Our total trade with the EU is £155bn. China Exported £279.9bn and Russia £206.6bn. The US £196bn. So you do not need a to be in the EU to trade with the EU. Incidentally the EU only accounts for between 35-41% of UK Exports (taking into account the Rotterdam Effect).
Also the UK is the largest EU export market, Do you think the Eu and especially Germany would want to lose this? You are stupid if you do.
2. We are not in the Eurozone and so do not use the Euro.
3. There are a total of 4 nations in our Union, not 5. And we would vote as a Union in a democratic way, one vote one person. The Union is safe.
4. The UK would not need to stay in EFTA and would not need to agree to free movement of people. The EU has 109 Trade Agreements which do not include free movement of people.
5. We have a Trade Deficit with the EU so it would benefit us to get less of your goods. So go on keep abusing us and threatening us with Germany, just shows how scared you really are.
hahahahha danny it seems you are the one who does not understand if uk leaves all the goods that you guys export would be absorbed by Germany and France the commission wouldnt need to sign a trade agreement with Britain, simply because everything you guys manufacture , is already manufactured and produced in France, Germany, the Nederlands, Poland and etc. so no need for any trade between Brussels and London.
Second i was not threatening with Germany i was stating a fact that the germans were the one which created in a first place, and that if you do something stupid to endanger the project they wont trade with Uk especially in an age of globalization which benefactor you are not considering. And that is called trancealtantic trade agreement i mean really and i dont mean to be rude but who needs the uk market with tranceatlantic trade agreement surely Berlin and Brussels could afford to let you leave.
In order for london to keep being the financial capital of Europe is essential to stay in the EU, because if it left it would lose the ability to move freely the euro currency without any taxation from ECB.
Vondaniken, As a previous Trade & Industry Brief Writer for both Margaret Thatcher and Lord Young I think I probably know more about this than you.
A in economics and trade for you. People in the EU do not but UK goods and services because they are forced to, they buy them because they want to. Countries like France and Germany may produce similar products (and in fact already do) but people buy the UK goods, just like people in the UK buy German manufactured cars instead of UK manufactured ones. This will not change
Furthermore do you believe that in the instance of Germany they would be willing to lose one of their largest markets for cars? The answer is no, so they will not want trade barriers. Neither would the rest of the EU which currently sells us 79% more than we sell to them. Of course if they did then the UK would respond and EU countries and manufacturers would be the worst hit.
2. I refer back to the point about Germany, they may not be the most intelligent but they will not be willing to lose one of their largest markets just because the UK leaves the EU.
3 The EU already trades with the US, all this agreement does is codify current arrangements and remove some WTO agreed TB’s from either side. The impact of increased trade with the US will not be large just simpler. So yes as their largest market the EU will still need the UK.
4. The UK does not use the Euro did you not know that, and there is no taxation on the movement of any currency anywhere on the world. London will continue and probably grow just as it did when the UK did not join the Euro, the only difference will be that London will be exempt from the stupid rules and taxes currently being devised by the EU to apply to financial business within the Eurozone and eventually the EU. SO we are quids in.
Many different theories on the site about what might and might not happen should the UK leave the EU. The truth is that nobody knows and that is the whole point of the 2-year notice period to leave and the negotiations that take place during it. The bottom line of this whole exercise is that one of the official goals of the EU is to improve living standards for the population whereas the goal of the Conservatives is to have a strong City and a strong economy without any regard for social policy. Hence Mr Cameron’s 2 major problems with the EU are the payment of benefits and banking regulation, and more specifically regulation about capping bank bonuses. So for Mr Cameron and his party to realise their plan about the UK it is imperative to get the EU out of the way, or it will be impossible. In this quest he is employing a number of tools in order to manipulate public opinion: making an issue out of paying EU migrants benefits amongst other groups (he has already withdrawn payment of benefits from a number of other social groups: young, disabled, cancer patients etc but never from his own voters, the wealthy elderly, some of whom have taken the government to court over their benefits and won their cases) thus creating the impression that it is mostly EU migrants that mostly claim benefits and are a burden on the UK state when the statistics do no show that, promising a referendum etc. Actually, how many people know that such a referendum is not legally binding, as EU treaties are subject to parliamentary ratification only and no referenda. This is in my opinion an attempt to let the mob take over and bypass a parliament. It is all about class clash between Mr Cameron and the EU, in my view. There is nothing more to it. He is on a mission to defend big bankers’ bonuses and lifestyles at the expense of the living standards of common citizens and the EU is getting in the way. The people that come here and defend his policy, either benefit from it directly, or have been completely brainwashed by the UK media. This is the downside of democracy…people with a low educational level that are also easy to manipulate also have the right to vote.
Yvetta,
The UK’s Statistics vary as to whether EU migrants are a net benefit to the UK Economy with some reports saying yes and others no. The HoC Briefs to Ministers & MP’s state that they are not a benefit.
As regards a referendum this gives the UK authority to enact a decision.
BTW did you know that technically the UK never legally joined the EU (then EEC) as the Referendum was held 2 years after the UK joined and under EU law the Referendum should have been held before we joined.
Hi Danny, quoting from my above post : “such a referendum is not legally binding, as EU treaties are subject to parliamentary ratification only and no referenda. ” adding the word membership to that. Thanks.
If there was no benefit to being a member the community wouldn’t have been created to start with and countries would not still be applying to join.
Yvetta,
Leaving the EU does not require a treaty ratification rather it just requires notification by the UK that it intends to withdraw from the Treaty, technically no Parliamentary approval is required.
You are right some poor countries are lining up to join this is because for decades they will be Net Beneficiaries. However Iceland which was next in line to join has formally withdrawn their application. This was because although they would have been a Net Beneficiary they cost and risk to their fishing waters was deemed to high.
So you see countries are only joining when they think they can gain financially but as soon as they realise they may not they are running away like mad.
Hi Danny, I was referring to joining. I can’t comment on the rest, as I am not an expert.
Okay Danny Last question and i quit.
Will the illuminated free masons in Westminster let you leave the EU?
Vondaniken,
If the majority vote to leave the Westminster will abide by the decision, failure to do so would bring down the Government.
You are probably right even though this will be the worst option for the UK. We will have to obey all EU regulations, but have no say.
We will still have the freedom of movement within the EU – which will mean our politicians will carry on fighting – I would expect calls for a referendum out of EFTA within a few years.
We will still have to pay almost the same amount of cash to the EU.
Some businesses will move out of the U.K. to the EU as Britain will be less stable and the pound will be jumping up and down like a yo yo.
Countries like France and Germany will collude with the Americans to gradually weaken the UK’s finance and services industries.
Britain will decline slowly compared to the rest of Europe.
24/01/2018 David Phinnemore, Professor of European Politics at Queen’s University Belfast, has responded to this comment.
24/01/2018 Sieglinde Gstohl, Professor of International Relations and Director of the Department of EU International Relations and Diplomacy Studies at the College of Europe in Bruges, has responded to this comment.
Exactly what will happen. The UK will still trade with Europe, at the same ‘cost’ of contributions and migrants to retain the deals it freely has now. It will loose it’s remaining empire. SCOTLAND, GIBRALTAR, FALKLANDS all gone in negotiations, London will turn its backs on N.I and Wales.
no chance it wouldn’t dare
Nope
Shouldn’t that be “English voters”? After all, the Conservatives din’t really have much success in Wales, let alone Scotland.
Ha are you telling me no more Mercedes no more BMW audi VW Renault Peugeot fiat cars and vans delivered to the UK wake up don’t be daft the UK se less than 32% to the EU were as The EU sell a massive amount here
A fair point. One of the fears is that if the UK gives notice to leave the EU, Scotland and Northern Ireland will give their notices to leave the UK, and stay in the EU. So, not much room for manoeuvre really. A populist exercise, not much else in this anti-EU talk. Might end up winning some UKIP voters over.
Yvetta,
Northern Ireland would also support leaving the EU and the Republic of Ireland has also indicated that of the UK leaves then they will leave also.
As regards Scotland they would be able to apply for a Referendum but given that the Referednum Bill stated that it was a “Once in a Lifetime” Referendum then as 25 years have not lapsed it probably would not be approved. Even if it were then they would still need to leave the EU as part of the UK and then even of they then voted to leave the K they would still need to join the list for prospective members for the EU after a Referendum on that matter also.
Hi Danny, where can I go to read Northern Ireland’s and Scotland’s stance on the UK’s leaving the EU? I would really appreciate a link. Thanks.
Hi Yvetta,
Bets place is to Google it and then work through all of the info. Also Google the Republic of Ireland’s stance and consensus to leave the UK for each Nation in the Kingdom
ha ha, I thought so, Danny…
Here is the first thing that comes up by the way:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/leaving-eu-would-damage-n-ireland-31192943.html
“EU funding is worth almost a tenth of Northern Ireland’s gross domestic product, a report has said.The cost of a British exit from the union may be too great to bear, researchers said.
The Open University review claimed the price of doing cross-border business would rise, undermining the logic of harmonising corporation tax rates north and south and putting Northern Ireland at a disadvantage.”
I’ll let you read the rest.
And here is the second thing that comes up:
http://www.epc.eu/pub_details.php?cat_id=13&pub_id=3689
“Leaders of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) and Sinn Féin – the two main political parties in Northern Ireland – have already stated that they are opposed to the UK leaving the EU.”
Nonsense at all.
I do not support the Cons, but if the UK left the EU, probably Europe will finally be free to start a true integration that will make us Europeans get better!
Enough with emigration. I don’t feel like being blown up by the Islamic State. EU always worked fine that way because its countries were trusty and reliable so EU citizens could go to wherever they wanted to. Now, everyone seems to be allowed to come in the EU. Perhaps they should just have Its frontiers up and stop other people from coming in as they will. The UK, France and several other countries want that as well.
@Keivan Hadji Hossein
If the UK leaves the EU, the EU will become a Latin bloc ==> corruption, disregard for ‘rule of law’ etc etc
lol or you will watch the europeean union keep on failing, like any trans-national undemocratic form of empire, and dies out. UK is so much better off. Think about it…what would have happen today to you if you had taken the Euro?
Peoples think this whole concept of politicla union and single currency is so revolutionary but it is NOT. The EU will fail after one of it state exit, like USSR failed slowly after lithuania exit!
Integration… yeah. Genocide more like
Anyone that wants to be more intrigated should be put in a mental home as they can not be sane.
Gary Barnacle you should be the one put in a mental institution for saying such barbarities!
If the EU really wants to be a union with its proper government, it should be better off without the UK (now the “divided kingdom”), unless they change their minds.
You are right we have to decide either to leave or become a full and active member, no more halfway house
@Luc Sabbe
WRONG.
The EU is already the smallest potential trade bloc in area as well as population. If the Uk leaves the EU the EU will get 15% smaller wealth wise and 12% smaller population-wise.
no we wont change our minds and if we leave the french wont be far behind leaving if not before if le penns nationale front get in they will leave straight away
It should leave Malvinas islands
The Falklands is UK Territory and it’s Citizens have chose to stay so.
@Gian Marco
Malvinas Islands? Never heard of them?
try making us then see how far your country gets with that
No such thing as the malvinas isles. It’s British territory…ask the residents there..Oh yes we did didn’t we..almost a 95% vote FOR the UK.
They don’t care about you. They care about inaccessible oil. You will be used and sold in a free trade agreement with Argentina.
No the Falklands were britiwsh before Argentina was even a country, there called the falklands by the way not Malvinas.
No such place as the malvinas, and by the way the Falklands were out be for Argentina even existed.
Everyone should leave the European Union. After all, its nothing but a useless union serving no ones interests
,U.K. wouldn’t be the same without Europe, would loose a lot if they leave E.U. However it’s time for E.U. burocracy and liberalism to accept the critics coming from the member states!
@Ferenc Lázár
Some pundits state that the UK would GAIN if it left the EU, so don’t be so sure. Besides setting up a Commonwealth Union would take just 2-3 years as everyone would speak the same language, similar laws and the same Queen.
If we had not joined we would still have a large fishing industry we would still have profitable coal industry and we would still have a steel industry, we would not have stupid rules like straight bananas and cucumbers, not able to do anything about the top EU people who can make rules to be forced on us these people that cannot be voted out of the EU, is the world’s biggest joke, and GB politicians are an even bigger joke for supporting membership, and the biggest joke of all is the EU immigration policy or should I say what immigration policy it might as well just say anyone welcome, I feel sorry for the little boy whose picture has made people want to help the migrants but when you realise that the reason he died was not because they were moving to safety they were trying to get to England so his farther could get free dental treatment on the NHS
Gary Barnacle yes maybe you’d still have a bigger fishing industry but then you would have had to face fisheries colapse due to overfishing. Maybe you’d still have a coal industry to the detriment of the health of the people working in it and potential deaths as you’d dig ever deeper. Maybe you’d still have a steel industry as you’d have the coal to produce it. However you can do something about the top EU people that you say force they laws upon you and vote for in the European elections as it’s in the European parliament that all directives are voted and all MEP’s can influence these decisions. I’ll agree on one thing the whole undemocracy thing starts in the different countries as people are not consulted befor major treaties are signed. The whole immigration policy as you put which is called freedom of movement and comerce is at the core of EU philosophy and it is the best thing about it. You cannot stop immigration and this helps the countries worst off a good chance to rise to same level of stability as those countries that are better off. What you forget is that immigrants end up contributing more to the economy of the country of residence than they do to their home country as they buy houses and cars and go about living.
Complete and utter rubbish. The real problem is if we do not get out 2 prices of legal come jn 2020 2022 then we will of lost the UK for good. Stock exchange mo es to frankfurt we adopt the euro. We lose all opt out with the EU. No thanks.
We should all leave. The EU is worthless as is. Governs with back to its citizens, and not because it’s leading them. EU has other interests in mind which are not those of it’s citizens or Europe.
Totally agree
Yeah right then all single country will negotiate trade agreement with US, China, Brazil. It will be so easy and equally balanced!
Arielle, As one of the largest trading countries in the World people want to trade with us. The trade agreements we make can be designed to meet the needs of one country better than a trade agreement designed to meet the needs of 28
Or they would never happen Danny, as it would take about 100 years to negotiate all of them….
100 years what rubbish it would take a few months were world business traders
yes
Let them become a state of their master, the USA
Oh irony.
You do realise USA are pushing for the EU?
You realize that the USA are putting pressure on UK to stay?
You realize that UE is the political and economical side of the coin, the NATO the other side?
Why are we debatting over Turkey joining the union (and giving roughly a bilion) and not Russia? It never occured to you that these are almost ONLY NATO COUNTRIES. (That explain also maybe why putin wasn’t too keen to see ukraine being an US outpost at their door..)
The next step in the USA ruling over UE is the TTIP, on its way…
Nick and Alexandre, Evidence please to support your statements
Not a problem my friend :) It’s out there if you are curious…
Bill Clinton:
“And I want to once again reaffirm my personal strong support for Turkey’s European Union candidacy … I feel very strongly that one of the four or five key questions to the future of this whole part of the world is whether Turkey is a full partner with the European Union. So I will continue to advocate it.”
Sauce: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PPP-1999-book2/pdf/PPP-1999-book2-doc-pg2090.pdf
George W. Bush :
“All of Europe’s democracies, from the Baltic to the Black Sea and all that lie between, should have the same chance for security and freedom and the same chance to join the institutions of Europe as Europe’s other democracies have.”
Sauce: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-108shrg91300/html/CHRG-108shrg91300.htm
Condoleezza Rice:
“America has strongly supported the European project. We have paid dearly to support Europe’s transformation and integration — because it was in our interests”
Eisenhower, if you can read this french:
http://img.agoravox.fr/local/cache-vignettes/L620xH244/Eisen-66c9e.jpg
( interview in Paris Match n°136, p.18, 27 octobre 1951)
or the rough translation I offer:
“Nothing would please us more than learning that the states of western europe decide to unite in a city of europe -let’s say luxembourg- delegate with the right of writting down the European constitution and that Europe would work as a federation. Nothing can help us more in the plan we follow”
Feel free to compare this two maps:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union#/media/File:European_Union_member_states_by_form_of_government.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO#/media/File:Major_NATO_affiliations_in_Europe.svg
Or take a look to Declassified US documents like Ambrose did?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1356047/Euro-federalists-financed-by-US-spy-chiefs.html
Should I continue
Alexandre,
Great quotes but none relate to their support for the EU not a political European state neither do any indicate any plan of control or rule of the EU by the US as you both have stated. This is the evidence I have asked for otherwise you are just selling conspiracy stories
Danny> Erm, yes.
Did you read the article about declassified US documents?
<>
Sorry, but no need to call it conspiracy bullshit because you don’t like that idea and it doesn’t fit the Myth that EU is making the whole stronger versus the US.
If you ask my grand parents generation, it’s a given that Europe as been pushed forward, initially to counter Socialism at the east.
To date, the US have a “Bureau of European Affairs”… Do we have a ministry to the US affairs? I don’t think so.
They won’t obviously RULE over us, but their influence is here, and yes, I initially stated that countries like Turkey are asked to join the EU because they are NATO. I bring solid arguments.
Where are yours?
You are in the denial imo…
Maybe you are some sort of conspiracist??? :)
Danny >
The quote got deleted between the marks. I wrote:
“The documents show that ACUE financed the European Movement, the most important federalist organisation in the post-war years. In 1958, for example, it provided 53.5 per cent of the movement’s funds.
(…)
A memo from the European section, dated June 11, 1965, advises the vice-president of the European Economic Community, Robert Marjolin, to pursue monetary union by stealth.
(…)
It recommends suppressing debate until the point at which “adoption of such proposals would become virtually inescapable”
Alexandre,
As you are well aware ACUE was established to promote political integration within Europe to counter the threat of communism. They are not there to rule the UK nor is there any evidence that they are working with the UK Government to rule the EU. So still no proof of plans of conquest by the US.
Danny, as you’re well aware,
‘promote’ and ‘finance’ is not quite the same.
It just shows that back in the days, between the speech, and the actual means there was a gap the public wasn’t necessarily quite aware of.
I am not saying they’re our overlord, ruling by force, but to think a lot (and I really mean a LOT) of the EU policies and politicians aren’t under influence is… naive at best.
> Actual Leaders of EU ? Spied and listened by our ‘friends’
> “Founding father” ? Financed.
> What the common point between Francois Hollande, his 1st Minister and a few of them? All are “Young Leaders” of the prestigious “French American Foundation”.
> Allain Juppe, leader of the opposition and possible candidate for Presidency? Same, a Young Leader of FAF..
Need even more in your face? Just read the treaties:
> The Article 42 of the Lisbon Treaty (sort of EU constituion, that french and dutch rejected by referundum BTW) put any EU country under NATO influence as following:
“The policy of the Union in accordance with this Section shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States and shall respect the obligations of certain Member States, which see their common defence realised in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), under the North Atlantic Treaty and be compatible with the common security and defence policy established within that framework.”
…
Am I the only one shocked by the definitive nature of this sort of policy? What if a member state don’t agree with the policy of NATO? (like invading irak..)
See, I could continue on and on,
but long story short, things are not going to get any better once we join the TTIP and I could elaborate why it will weaken member states sovreignety a bit more, but my individual post will get way too long I am afraid
Alexandre,
The quote you use is a reference to the fact that some countries within Europe play active roles within NATO and would not want to be limited or affected in their role as such members. TBH if the Euro Army comes off then I can see this disappearing over time with the EU, rather than nation states, becoming the member and probably sitting fully on the Security Council in place of the UK; although this would require the UK handing over control of it’s nuclear weapons to the EU which even if we are mad enough to vote to stay in would probably be a step too far.
None of the links you provide give proof of a US plan to overthrow the institutions of Europe and take control, or even to express a desire to control from the sidelines. As regards the UK then yes the US would prefer us as a member of the EU quite simply because ours and their anglo philosophy are the same and they would not wish the anglo element to be lost in the EU as without it the EU would be quite foreign in its outlook and practices.
Alexandre please do not distort facts to suit your purpose. The US DOES NOT have a Bureau of European Affairs, it has a Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs which is part of the US Department of State.
This Bureau is no different from the UK’s own divisions which form part of the Foreign Office, or are you suggest that the UK has plans to take over Japan, China, Russia etc?
You are seeing conspiracies where none exist. Yes the US does like to encourage policies preferential to their own interests but so does nearly every other country.
Danny>
Again, you keep on calling on conspiracy, which I didn’t named so.
I didn’t try to twist the name I hardly remembered the full name was eurasian, I am just always annoyed at Victoria Nulland public quotes in the press
(and to be fair, it’s not the same as foreign office in France -which is global- and which is the one i know the best. We have no ministry to north american affair.)
I think I defended my point well: leaving the EU is opposite to the profound will of the US -hence the idea that if UK leave the EU will make them the lapdog is wrong.
I don’t think that except calling me conspiracist you managed to proce me wrong.
I will leave you with another article sipporting that US is working actively to an ever closer union between european state:
Obama urges UK to stay in European Union
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-33647154
Alexandre,
You are right I am saying that I believe you believe there is a conspiracy with the US trying to take over and control the EU, this is what you keep suggesting whether you realise it or not.
The fact that in France you do not have such Divisions within your Foreign Office shows the difference between our approach and the Anglo Approach of countries such as the US and the UK. This is precisely why the US wants the UK to remain a member so that and Anglo influence is not lost. Personally I believe we should leave and shove what the US may prefer, they are after all a Foreign Power.
Europe would do better with out them
ENGLAND should leave the EU, if England tried to leave whilst in the UK, then there will be no UK. Scotland is a committed European nation, not prone to the kind of scaremongering around the EU as little Englanders
The yorkies are part of the United Kingdom, any decision should be a democratic one involving all of its citizens. Scotland escapes most of the 5,700,000 EU migrants since 1997 so has less infrastructure problems
@Tom Johnstone
Typical bilge from an EU – incontinent-alist!
Yea Scotland want UK exit but wants more EU them Scott’s voting that really are turkeys voting for Christmas
For the best of both the EU and England, I think they should leave. I instead hope for Scotland and Wales to become independent and join the EU.
You do know Wales & Scotland would be looking for hand outs from the EU like they get from the UK budget? They would be net recipients not contributors to the EU budget
@joe England stole Scotlands oil wealth and convinced ‘well educated’ people like you, that THEY take from England.
Won’t happen we. Leave as 1 nation. Our UK is a little EU we all trade with each other freely no borders. So most of Wales and Scotland trade is UK wide not EU only 7% of businesses trade with the eu, mainly corporation and big supermarkets ect. The Scots can be daft at times but not that daft.
They never been there…
The UK should finally stop sitting on the fence. Either way, the Britons should make a decision (in a democratic vote) and then stick to it. They should either decide to go and then truly leave, or decide to stay in, but then engage and commit to the integration process. By running an empty chair policy as the UK does now it only makes itself weak, and it makes the EU weak.
You are correct we need to decide either to leave or become a full and active member
We do need to decide but we use to have a chair in the world trade organisation we no longer do someone from the EU non Brit does that and we never know what goes on so trade is now out of our hands law is out of our hands we need to et out ASAP and why have we still got a gov what do they do these days?
We have and we want to leave. We made our desicio. It’s out PMs that are trying to do the dirty. We will leave do not worry.
Of course, but not sure Uncle Samm will accept that!
they are welcome to leave…
@Jorge A. Rodrigues
Why, you ungrateful so-and-so, after all the money the UK has given you to civilize your poor country!
@Tarquin Farquhar
1. If you think that to be poor is an insult then you are a poor man, and I am not talking about economy.
2. The country that you are talking about have more than one million British living in, around 300 000 working and the main part are old people who use the health system and so, much more than you though. I have to say that they are not registered and not paying the taxes in the country… you can check the fifth point of:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/19/what-would-happen-if-britain-left-the-eu-consequences-of-exit
3. I do not agree what he said but that doesn’t mean that you have to be so rude. To remain or not in the EU is up to British. What I prefer or want means nothing here, but I have to say that other countries, like Norway, even being out of the EU, they follow some treaties, like the freedom of movement or working treaty. I don’t know right now how will be the relation after the referendum… I just hope that my many British friends, some of them from the school time, don’t have to live. I don’t think so.
Xisco
Those pensioners you refer to have bought houses in that country (where there is a glut in supply) and spend their money in that country. They do not take jobs or receive benefits from that country.
Yes some use the health system there but many go private and I believe those using the state system their cost is refunded by the UK under reciprocal arrangements
@Danny
Danny check one more time my comment and you will see that what you say is not my main point… the point was someone calling poor to another as an insult and you say nothing about that. Do you think this is a right?
On the other hand, it’s true what you say, the good old British buy bargains that the people from the country cannot afford. However, it’s not true that they are not taking jobs, around 300.000 British are registered in the country and working as the other 5 million immigrants that live in the country. Country that have 5 million people unemployed. But that’s not the point, those are just numbers… and I rather prefer talk about people. It’s not important for me if they are working or not, if they have money or not. The only thing that matters to me is if they feel fine living in that country. I have to say that it’s an honor that they choose that country to live out of Great Britain over the other European countries.
Xisco,
No it was inappropriate.
My personal experience is that those working over there tend to work in British business or to be self employed. Personally I love the country and with a house there try to spend as much time as possible over there, let’s hope it doesn’t if the UK votes to leave the EU
Well said Xisco!
UK out, Scotland in. Camerons Brexit wil cause a lot of no-voters for independence switch tot a yes -vote.
They are more then welcome. They are pro-Europe and keep 1/3th of the territory of the UK in the EU. They have the most oil of the EU.
Anyway the winner takes it all is fucked up. With a loss of 13% in votes the Libdems lose 85% of the seats. That isn’t really democratic. In such system only swing voters count and a majority of the voters isn’t even represented.
Wrong oil has been found in the south coast of England. Anyway half UK can’t stay in and half out that’s nonsense we are all out or not preferable out
No.
Debating Europe
Thank you for your support, we will be leaving shortly. :)
The question you should be asking is will the French people leave before us ?
@Ivan Burrows
WELL SAID!
UKIP in the EU should launch a campaign ‘with greater political union comes language union – and that langauge is ENGLISH’ – That would really upset the corrupt French politicos.
I think De Gaulle was right when he did not allow Britain to be a member of the EEC.
@Luli Nuredini
Of course he was right- if the UK had been in from the start the EU would not have been so corrupt.
But he decided to let us in when he realised how much they could screw out of the UK to support the totally French biased CAP didn’t eh?
No, definitely not. Britain and its coulture has much to give to the EE and should not think of leaving.
It’s simple, UK will never leave the EU, it will opt out from the Treaties as much as it can. It will always vote for more new member states to join the EU because it wants an EU without one voice but with many that argue with one another. Why? Because it wants and always will want (and need) to be USA’s first and only responsible and credible disussant, not the EU. If by any chance the EU moved to a serious deepening of the Union and started speaking in one coherent and cohesive voice, UK would return to the Middle Ages as it has no other serious means of keeping its status as a middle-class world power.
Rubbish ! We did quite well before we joined the EU with the Commonwealth. We never did like to be dictated to and that’s what the EU is, a dictatorship.
One question, what are you smoking
Yes, if they want to.
Britain should even get booted out.
No, not the English ,please BUT ,THE ARABS,THE TURKS ,THE INDIANS ,THE PAKISTANS ,THE ROMA-INDIANS ,THE AFRICANS and all of the Asians ,AFRICANS and other NOT-EUROPEANS should leave Europe and go back to dwell in their own homenland and their own continents.Europe is so small to take in the folks of 3 whole Earth’s mainalnds -Asia,Africa and Latin America.Please,leave us,the Europeans unharmed.
Well said.
Interesting comment…but if it was made by a British !
Ignorant
ils n’auraient jamais du entrer
leave already and shut up!
@Marius Spinu
What asinine thinking!
Yes, we don’t need countries with other coin which don’t be the Euro ?
Agreed, I just don’t know how those other countries manage to survive trading in the Dollar, Yen, Rupee etc?
Euro will fold you won’t have it yet and if your Italian you will be going back to the lira be ause when you do you will default on your massive debt and you will take the eurodown with you.
Absolutely not!
Britain doesn’t know what consequences this decision might have for them…
if EU were strong they would “punish” a Brexit… however I am more than certain that if the UK does leave EU they will get the same benefits as Swizterland and others of the EFTA…. meaning… same trade benefits
WE know the pro’s and con’s of the decision. With a 79% Trade Deficit with the EU any trade aggression should we decide to leave would cost the EU more money and jobs. Can the EU afford this during its economic downturn? Can it afford to lose its 2nd largest net contributor?
Oh, we know very well. We regain our seat at the WTO and can negotiate our own trade deals with the Commonwealth (which contains some of the biggest growing economies, ansd we will be free to trade with the whole world again. As for penalties and blocking from the EU, where will Audi, VW, BMW and Mercedes sell their cars? We have a huge trade defecit with the EU, can they afford to not trade with us? Yes, there will be initial uncertainty and some pain, but in the main to get out from under the EU burocracy will be hugely beneficial.
@Caro Line
No-one does!
@John you expect ‘commonwealth’ countries to give the UK a better deal? The common wealth hates what the UK did to them, you oppressed and raped them of everything valuable. They are now wealthy and do not need or want a trade agreement with an insignificant island on the edge of Europe.
They’ll decide about it. If they go out I hope they don’t regret it. :>
we wont i assure you
Shiieeiit no
nicht
Britain should leave the European Union alone
No.
any political leader who speakes about UK leavindg the European Union ,is in fact an enemy of the democracy and freedom.
Please Mr Victor Sorin Popaliciu explain how leaving the European Union that has un elected people making laws, be more democratic than an elected goverment?
Really, what mental ward are you missing from.
it seems to be the (shortsighted) will of the people, so let them go – let them learn from their foolhardiness that they’re not the special case they think they are
brits want to be in the union only so they can have a free pass to travel across europe. Anything else is just plain racist
5,700,000 EU migrants have entered the UK since 1997, only 1,800,000 UK citizens have moved to EU countries.
@Fockerski
I prefer Aus, NZ, Can & the USA to ANY part of little EU.
No. We love you guys !!!!
we’ll survive if they go
you wont though hahaha ,end of the EU because we leave the irish will leave and shortly followed by the french who will if National Front win power and i hope they do
@Steve P > Front National son’t want to leave. They are for “another Europe”… i.e a white and christian one. Which is already the case. What it baffles me is that peoples, even liberals, fail to see how undemocratic and racist the EUSSR construction is. A club of white country. Like if we were deemed to share destiny/trade/everything more with Lithuania over Algeria or India.
no…brits are european…and we owe them our freedom in europe…it is up to them to decide
Thanks jude and correct it’s up to us. People get us wrong we love Europe and European people the problem lies with the undemocratic dying EU. Soon will be gone forever and we can get on with our lives in peace.
On Knees in front the USA, yes. Go and don’t come back.
dont you mean your country is on its knees being the germans bitch haha
England is part of Europe and wil allways be as any european country. A different matter is being part of EU wich is another thing. Nobody in is right mind is willing to be part of this monstruos corporate dictatorship.
Well said!
thats what you think, ask any self-respecting Brit what he thinks about that and he will tell you straight up that he is a British first and then English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish as the case maybe. Do cubans think they are North American ? Its the same with brits
Heh, few weeks ago they use difrent argument when Scotland had referendum to leave United Kindom :)
Now they show they real face like in 1945 in Jauta (Churchil, Roosevelt, Stalin conference). Now they try to build new “German Wall”. Unresponsible move!
A 300+year democratic and fiscal union is slightly different to a 42 year trade block
Yes! mesmo que se corra o risco da China ocupar a G.B.
The only way to predict the future is to create it, don’t be led by EU simulation.
At least you will not take a diktat from Brussels.
Nope.. But that’s where they are heading sadly..
It’s mostly their problem, not an EU problem.
No! It’s good to have UK in EU!
For other Countries it is good but not for Britain otherwise we would not have all our public services going down the drain overloading our Country taking away control of the British people.
Yea, Britain mote leave !
No…it’s about Europe’s balance UK not to leave eu… Eu was made to avoid wars by creating a balance of France,Germany and England!!! Brexit will be dangerous!!!
@Vagelis Priftis
Sound logic EXCEPT you neglected to consider that ONLY France & Germany have waged war to conquer Europe over the last 2 or so centuries. If they decide to revert to form again – the UK will NOT come to the rescue AGAIN!
so many comments,none told the right thing.Germany should be out of e.u .
They failed to occupy europe with the guns they did it with the euro currency…
No, because I believe in the free movement of goods and services.
So do we. The Treaty of Rome was great unfortunately the Movement of workers (with jobs to go into) was undermined and the over generous social system in the UK caused unsustainable mass immigration. Too many to integrate successfully or to build the required infrastructure for. The UK is crowded and this must be recognised.
ofcourse you do but us Brits dont stuff the EU and all who stay in it
Britisch election system is broken.
Tories : + 2% votes = + 3,4% seats
Labour: +5% votes= – 4% seats.
The positive thing is that jester Farage only gets 1 seat with 12,6% while nick clegg still holds 8 seats with 7,8%. (still not democrtic though)
Farage is a national hero who is getting more and more popular.The tories won on the back of the EU vote thats how many want out and i carnt wait to leave
They should try and stop complaining to leave
@Tullio Colombo
Ah, you do not care for democracy and freedom of speech then?
I thin right no,,,
In the member yes !!
no thank you we want out
UK is a part of Europe . So what if its an island ? Malta ,Ireland, Cyprus are islands too
Go go go ! Cameron
Hay que replantearse las fronteras en la UE !
Emergencia maxima !
Prioridad !
Es Muy Urgente !
muchos enemigos !
Afros ! Centro AMERICA!
It’s up to them… But! Why so long for the referendum… 2017 seems to be too far away. If they stay will be Ok and if they leave will be ok too. People seems to think that this will be the solution for all the problems, others that this will be a complete disaster… nothing it’s going to happen, whether they stay or not.
I have many British friends living around, some of them from the school time. I’m not going to stop having them as friends because the borders moves once more. Actually, I think is not that the biggest question about the EU, the question soon will be: Who wants to stay?
No!
Absolutely not, it would be disastrous for them
Sorry be disastrous if we stay ,get us out now we have no infjuence and get nothing out of it but mass immigration and criminals.Also just looking at some of the posts not many british on here saying stay ,its mainly euro nationals saying stay i wonder why that is.
UK DOES NOT BELONG EVEN NEVER BELLONGS TO EU.. IT EAS AN ISLAND AND ALWAYS AGAINST EUROPE AND FOR IMPERIALISM AND ONLY FOR USA.. SO OUT AND VERY VERY QUICKLY AND HARRY UP!
They have nothing to do with EU.. just as tourist and jus as friends to the Europeans are good..
Your right the UK has stood firm against Social Facism Twice in the 20th Century.
They left allready….
UK DOES NOT BELONG EVEN NEVER BELLONGS TO EU.. IT WAS AN ISLAND AND ALWAYS was and is AGAINST EUROPE AND they are only FOR IMPERIALISM AND ONLYFOR TO SERVE USA AND THE USA PLANS AGAINST EUROPE…. SO OUT AND VERY VERY QUICKLY AND HARRY UP to leave out of EU!
They have nothing to do with EU.. just as touristS and just as friends to the Europeans are good..
Oxford universities scientiest and progress myst be Europe’s futyre…academies scholia not only money. The Spirit of Europe are goid relations not whose get more money and . Atomik spirit of unusless thinks
Obviously, it is up to the British people to decide, whether they would like to stay or leave. Even though I think that a British exit would be a lose-lose situation, I am a strong supporter of their right to decide upon this fundamental issue. Probably a big factor in this emotional debate is the lack of a European identity.
Frankly, I think that for all EU countries the advantages of their membership outweigh the disadvantages in the long run.
The 21th century poses major challenges such as climate change, massive tax evasion, hundreds of thousands of refugees, and the terrible security situation in Eastern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.
Those challenges require us European to stand firmly together and finally act as a community.
But surely for the UK beefing up borders insulates it from all those tesions and the refugee/migrant crisis by using the rump EU as a buffer state.
Please what advantages of staying in? losing jobs is a myth so don’t tell me lies about that one, we have always been able to go and live and holiday abroad so that wouldn’t change. There is nothing but debt austerity and foreign criminals being allowed while we suffer.
We do not need the eu never have done and never will. Lets be friends but leave politics out of it.
Of course not! They belong to Europe like Austria, Belgium & Cyprus!
if they do we all should start learning deutsch and francais :D
@Vondaniken
German yes, French no – they do not have the power to dominate the EU like Germany can.
i absolutely agree with you brother european integration it the word
Yes, please! We need someone to demonstrate the wrong construction and development of the EU.
Let’s hope we are not sleep walking towards an exit from the EU
No, should not
In a long period term they can’t compete with the economic power of China, Russia, India, Brazil alone so they won’t never leave UE. The promise of a referendum is only political campaign.
@Francio Marco
In a short period of time, the UK could create a COMMONWEALTH UNION – same lanigae, same laws, same Queen.
In the long-term no country in Europe can compete with China or India. Europe is doomed. It’s economy is absolute crap. It’s future demographics are the worst in the world. It’s undemocratic. It has lots of corruption. It’s ridiculous slow moving when it comes to policy adoption. It’s an old, ageing / dying dinosaur.
At least if the UK leaves the EU it can become more nimble and efficient again. It can completely lower taxes to undercut EU FDI, and with free-control over the it’s own currency it can more easily wield monetary policy as a reflection of it’s economy than the EU can ever dream of doing. No the UK won’t be a global power in the long-term if it’s out of the EU. But no European country (including the EU) will be a global power in the long-run. It’s declining and it’s declining fast according to all projections. At least the UK however will be able to do well for itself and remain relatively competitive if it leaves the sinking ship early.
British bla bla bla but maybe it will get the EU to do much-needed reform
Yes, Britain maybe leave the European Council of the European Union
The America come help on the Europeans wars because they thought they coul be the next target, only that.
Yes, this is how I see it too.
I mean GB should get out as soon as possible. EU President Juncker is promoting the idea of a continental army, a true EU army. We need to join forces on the defence of continental Europe. GB does not understand what a continent means. They have always regarded the “common market” as some still call it, as a “market”, some kind of club where you tell others what to do. The EU to me is a FEDERATION of like minded folks. Let GB leave us and let us federate.
EU Army perhaps run from the same place as the European Central Bank? This is one of the elements that concerns the UK. Fourth Reich.
@Danny Young
Bravo!
WELL SAID!
Those who cry out for an EU army clearly have no experience of military matters. Just who will be in overall control of this army? Any force needs a clear and defined command and control system overseen by a strong government.
The EU has neither the experience or the political cohesion to be trusted with something as dangerous as an army. God help the planet if it ever happens
haha an EU army. An EU army officially means your nation is no longer an independent sovereign nation. He who controls the army controls the nation, controls your nations outlook of the world (foreign policy), and controls your nations people.
You’ll never ever see the USA do this. This is because the US is a superpower, and will remain a superpower for a long-time to come along with a rising China (and potentially rising India). The EU on the other-hand isn’t a superpower and won’t be a superpower. I guess all the Euro nations are getting desperate though, all trying to remain relevant. But it doesn’t matter. No matter what Europe does it just can’t compete and remain competitive anymore. All projections indicate it’s only going to continue declining in power and relevance on the global stage. EU attempts are futile, especially since they’re causing more harm than good. Even your stupid monetary policy has caused more damage than good. The only winner so far from it has been Germany. Why continually destroy your nations in the process for a lost cause? If the UK gets out it can avoid this and any more damage that’s going to occur.
I’m not from the UK (or EU), however I hope the UK can get out early, and with the use of strong and smart economic policies it can remain competitive and establish a niche position within the worlds rapidly changing economy.
uk should stay in Eu
GTFO, they’re always slowing every reform down with their common law gibberish!
@Giacomo Lorenzo Volli
Good idea, although perhaps stated impolitely.
BTW, it is zealots like you from countries that perform badly in the TI corruption tables that frighten me and many others in the UK because of your blind faith in a political EU system that is corrupt and inferior to that on offer in the UK.
Yes and get in Russia
yes!
I only have sorry for Scotish, but they had chosed what they wanted. They forgot the murder of its Queen, Isabel. So Sad.
It was never part of it. They have been always playing nasty
@Roberto López Gallardo
The UK was never allowed to be a core part of the EU, that’s why France stopped the UK from joining the foundling EU TWICE.
I believe that the EU is a good idea BUT not in its current French/Latin corrupt incarnation.
That woukd be a very short sighted decision. Sure Britain makes a lot if products and had great trade influence but cutting ties with EU would mean some money glow would be redirected away from GB. They’re not special. Germany has got more economic influence and Scandinavia has got more oil and gas. Trade deals would be at risk.
The UK operates a Trade Deficit with the EU of 79%. That means the EU sells 79% more to the UK than the UK buys from them. I think the EU would not want this to be affected.
When did ignorance become a point of view?
The EU isn’t needed for trade, never has been, never will be!
Not a single trade deal would be at risk, stop making up this antidemocratic (pro-EU is antidemocratic) nonsense.
NO!
No.
We all should leave the EU and NATO..
~ Why? ~ IS BRITAIN IN?
Can’t wait to leave the eu, pointless organisation
Seems you lot have no clue. .We give more money to the Poxey EU than any other Country. .Soon you won’t have a Country. .IT WILL BE THE EUROPEAN STATE.
Exactly! I wonder if all these people saying that britain should “GTFO” or “Go and don’t come back!” or “Yes! we want rid of Britain because they were never apart of EU” will still be saying such things without £8 billion of British tax payers payers money bailing them out or funding their infrastructures?
No, no, NO!!!
NO NO NO
Yes!
Hey, people. I am British and do NOT want to leave the EU. I am ashamed at some of the eurosceptic outpourings from politicians. I am proud to be European and thin it as astonishing achievement that we have al held together in the last 70 years. We’re not all bad !!!
No we are not, but we sit in a halfway house with the EU, neither in nor out. The UK needs to decide to either leave or become a full member including adopting the Euro.
The EU and Europe are two totally different things.
@Steve Marchant
Hi people, I am British and I ashamed of people like ‘Steve Marchant’ ignoring the undemocratic and corrupt institution that is the EU. I am proud to be British and a member of the Commonwealth and NATO.
NATO has kept the peace for the last 70 years in Europe – REMEMBER the EU did NOT exist 70 years ago.
NATO will stop the BLOOD BROTHERS (France and Germany – the 2 nations responsible for ALL pan-Western-European war over the last 2 centuries) from warring again.
Steve, you really don’t like democracy, do you?
If you get made redundant you will soon change your point of view, when you find like me that you cant get a job because you don’t speak polish, I went for a job at a large company, I lasted 2 days as the whole shift, including team leaders and supervisors only spoke polish, not one of them could speak English, they had to keep getting somone from the office to translate, it was ok during the day, but when the office closed at 05:30, I was unable to be told what I was required to do.
moron and a traitor if your european go live there we dont want people like you
With England or no the EU find them way. That mean doesn,t meter. They want only economic advantage nothing else metter…..
@Doina Vintila
The UK is the 2nd biggest EU donor.
The UK is the world’s 2nd biggest charity donor.
The UK has the biggest of all EU armed forces and is prepared to go to war to help NATO/EU members, perhaps even your country.
The UK is sick and tired of propping up poor, UNGRATEFUL and corrupt Club Med or ex-Communist bloc countries that do NOT understand democracy, ‘rule of law’, fairness and are UNAWARE of the biased news and propaganda spouted by the EU and Euronews.
Please do some research before posting silly comments.
@Tarq
|The UK is the 2nd biggest EU donor.
Well duh, it’s the second largest economy among the net contributors. Take the trouble of fact checking just who pays most into the EU /per head/. That’s the only figure with at least some significance. Anything else is like comparing China to Switzerland on absolute GDP.
|The UK is the world’s 2nd biggest charity donor.
There is an appropriate word here, I think it starts with a B and ends with something like ULLSHÌT. How is it that it doesn’t hurt to bend one’s mind into believing such nonsense? If you want to compare dìcks, at least do it in a way that is not completely inane.
|The UK has the biggest of all EU armed forces and is prepared to go to war to help NATO/EU members, perhaps even your country.
Ha ha, right, and the other European NATO members obviously aren’t prepared. They signed the NATO contract just for fun and anyway, they have no armed forces worth speaking of. Because, you know, they just don’t.
Do you even try and think before posting? Do you even have one 10th of a clue how the defence forces of the large EU members really compare?
|The UK is sick and tired of propping up poor, UNGRATEFUL and corrupt Club Med or ex-Communist bloc countries that do NOT understand |democracy, ‘rule of law’, fairness and are UNAWARE of the biased news |and propaganda spouted by the EU and Euronews.
|Please do some research before posting silly comments.
Dear me. It’s one thing to spout utter nonsense, it’s another thing to spout nonsense and then sign it with a last word such as this.
@Blugalf
Your tendentious waffle amuses me dear knave. I shall engage you with fact, intellect and merriment for I doth love jousting with ne’er do wells such as thee.
Luxembourg pays a lot more per capita as an EU donor BUT the EU could easily cope with the loss of the paltry sum Luxembourg donates to the EU BUT the EU would definitely miss the billions upon billions of sterling the UK donates to the EU.
As regards the UK being the 2nd biggest national charity giver, please CHECK the link below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid
I bid you adieu dear scoundrel of scatology, idoliser of inexactitude.
Always remember, you’ve been ‘Tested, Jested and Bested!’
@tarq You cant seriously believe this clownish blather of yours is going to get you anywhere?
Luxembourg, right. Of course, head on some list you stumbled upon but can’t interpret properly. I really don’t expect you to be able to put Luxembourg’s GDP or EU contribution into perspective, but that’s irrelevant at this point.
Your “billions upon billions” stack has 3 single layers, hooray. That’s about how much the UK ‘donates’ – what a silly word. It’s a rather modest sum in view of UK’s size in population and economy.
It’s a quarter of one percent of the UK GDP.
Something like 5% of the EU’s budget. It’s a really stupid notion to believe the loss of UK contributions would leave any kind of dramatic hole… I’ve explained it in a comment somewhere else here, go look it up. Really I can’t be asked to keep reiterating the obvious to you lot.
Priceless. That’s development aid, and only government spending at that. Are you aware of the fact that charity is not the same as development aid, and both are given by other entities than government? Have you taken the overall public spending ratio into account? Nah, I guess such menial issues would not trouble you in your drivelling quest of finding a list where the UK shows up near the top so you can pretend you’re the greatest.
And of course, they’re absolute numbers again. Are you lot really that desperate? As in having to ride on the ‘benefit’ of a large populace as if that were any merit at all? Oh look, France gives more than Norway, all hail the French! Or maybe we should all kowtow the Chinese and adopt their way of life, after all they’re #1 in more things than you can count, if you conveniently ignore the fact that their pop count is way >1bn.
Get your head around it, this way of looking at most data is completely misleading. Break it down to percentage of GDP, or to capita, factor in some other data that really needs to be considered here and you have something even resembling a point. Big countries give more than small countries, eh? No şhìt, Sherlock. That gives each of you wannabe-bígdìck halfwits precisely ZERO leverage.
Only in your mind, my very young padawan. Keep up the good humour though, as a clown you’re not all that bad.
Out
Even public relations consultant David Cameron will struggle to sell the fruits of his “renegotiation” to the hostile British press and those members of his parliamentary group who really want to leave the EU. To those who want to leave the EU, no renegotiation can be good enough.
Please answer my survey on the EU and Brexit http://iitm.be/UKxit
Any sensible business person whose company does cross-border trade will tell you that leaving the EU would equal economic suicide. Cameron is (was) scared by UKIP and Rule-Britannia backbenchers and he’s on the safe side now; but he’ll have to stick to his referendum… Mobility is not negotiable. It started 6 mio years ago and it will never stop. So, best is to accompany it. TOGETHER. And top the cake with a sweet cherry: PEACE.
@JP Faure
I am sorry BUT many major academics and think-tanks have stated that if the UK leaves the EU, in some instances [not all] it may actually be beneficial to the UK to do so.
BTW, I care not for the thoughts of ‘sensible business persons’ who are driven by the ‘Business Before Beings’ ethic.
| leaving the EU would equal economic suicide
There’s leaving for good as in complete detachment in any way, shape or form, a leap back into the 1700s – a foolish daydream entertained only by a few pityable cretins who have very little besides their nationality to help them define their existence. This would indeed be economic suicide, and it’s not going to happen.
Then there’s the ‘eurosceptic’ Brit vision on things. Formally be a member of a ‘reformed’ EU, aka an EU in which the Brits are special; unhampered access to the common goods and services market as like now, no trade barriers as like now, free movement of goods, services and people as in now, barring however arbitrary, unilateral vetoes from Westminster; no more regulations from Brussels governing such niggardly issues as quality and environmentnal standards, workforce rights, health care, retirement, public subsidiaries etc, unless of course they’re enacted amd deemed necessary in Westminster. Unidirectially, they will also apply to Brits and UK companies abroad mind you, because the UK way of doing things is, quite naturally, the right one… you catch my drift. Also a pipe dream, of somewhat more subtle foolishness, and not going to happen either.
Then there’s the pragmatic scenario – UK tries to establish a relationship similar to that of Switzerland, which is not formally a member but de facto in in more respects than out. This will however give rise to some serious conflicts, after all Switzerland is of tiny weight overall and it is more or less the only exception as of now. The body of countries forming the remaining EU will probably find it very hard to all allow for a precedence where a big country gets to cherry pick and arrange for a special relationship in such a way just because it’s got a large number of clueless loudmouths and nationalists. It’s difficult to base actual politics on the diffuse antipathy of a crowd of semi-illiterate chavs and a gang of oldtimers who can’t let go of the WW II thing and still believe they singlehandedly defeated the nazis.
Yes, unless reform is possible. Only reform i want though is trade only union no political /social engineering elements whatsoever
Get out as soon as possible
Get out
Should EVERYONE leave is more like it.
The question would be how and under which terms the United Kingdom would withdraw from the EU…?
None of the British eurosceptics has ever declared what exactly they think is to become of the Polish, Slovakian, Latvian etc etc EU citizens who have made their lives in Britain? What about the three million or so Brits who live elsewhere in the EU.
Above all: if this is perceived as a hostile withdrawal all sorts of harmful implications on the relations with Britain are possible. ..
1,800,000 UK citizens have moved to EU countries since 1997, either to retire, open businesses or work in jobs paying more than the minimum. 5,700,000 EU citizens have in that time moved to the UK.
Most parties, including UKIP, agree that if the UK left those residing and working in the UK who are not living on benefits could stay. The proviso being that this was reciprocal. Spain and Portugal I imagine would not mind retaining the UK retirees who have purchased houses and spend their money in those countries.
If the EU collapses under it’s own inadequacies you will suddenly be faced with all that and a great deal more, What then ?
@Eberhard M. Bartelmess
So if the UK decides to leave the EU, the ever-so gentile and peace-loving EU will initiate a TRADE-WAR against the UK?!
What kind of ‘club/union’ threatens its members if they want to leave!
Sounds more like a Reich to me.
BTW, millions of the 3 million Brits that ‘live’ on the continent are encouraged to do so – Portugal and Spain in particular actively attract British pensioners to their countries so that the very presence of retired Brits can boost their feeble economies.
and that concerns us why what hostilities could the eu do to us,and migrants who live here apply for citizenships and fail vice versa for uk-expats they want to live in other countries have to do same
No..absolutely Not!!!!
I think the correct question is “want the british leave the EU?
The last poll suggests that 54% of Britons want to remain in the EU!
@Christian Weale
NEWS ALERT!
Polls are not always accurate and can change – QUICKLY!
Last poll suggested a hung parliament….
christian dont believe the polls there always loaded i dont know anyone who wants to stay in the EU
Definitely no
Yes.
We don’t care about Britain
That’s the problem the EU doesn’t care about it’s 2nd largest Net Contributor and the most populated larger member country. Such attitudes is what is turning citizens of the UK off of the EU
YES the sooner the better.
Sim pelo menos enquanto estiverem sempre a cobrar e ainda por cima com o nariz empinado
They shall leave. They are too “empiristic”. They think that they are alone. Keep them alone. This is, when one doesn’t fit into a group.
Better to work on a welfare Vision for all Europeans. http://www.WWSEEP.com .
Start Tolerance, and ReIndustrialising of Europe.
@Erich Scheffl
Hmmm, you seem a tad intolerant mein Oberleutnant.
The whole of Europe needs to unite if we are to compete in a globalized world with the likes of India, China, Indonesia and others… Too much in-fighting means we have not got our eye on the global game with these big players…… United we are stronger, devided we shall be part of China in next to no time at all (China is used here as a metaphor for what/whom ever we end up a part of)……
@Chalks Corriette
Even if the UK stays – the EU is still too small in terms of population and geography to compete with India, Russia, Latin America, ASEAN, NAFTA etc.
The EU needs a fundamental reform – less Franco/Latin-based and more Northern/Angl-Saxon-based.
@Chalks Corriette
Even if the UK stays – the EU is still too small in terms of population and geography to compete with India, Russia, Latin America, ASEAN, NAFTA etc.
The EU needs a fundamental reform – less Franco/Latin-based and more Northern/Anglo-Saxon-based.
Theory shouldn’t really as that will backfire tremendously bad for the British economy. Most likely it will also bring with it a new referendum to Scottish independence as most Scotish seem to be pro EU.
if they will or not that is a different matter, personally I hope they don’t but a lot of British are for leaving the EU, ignorantly I might add, as they’re constantly fed the negative parts of it without seeing the benefits of the EU partenership.
As for the position of the EU certain things would probably get done more easily European wide without the British being there to constantly undermine the EU parliament. However, since the EU is about union it is not in its interest to see the UK sepperate.
@Gvasco
Please note NOT all economists believe that the effect of a BREXIT would be bad for the UK.
As regards ignorance:
Why should the UK give away £3b/yr of fish to the likes of Spain or Portugal – would the French give away £3b/yr of Champagne or the Germans give away £3b/yr of hops?
Why does the EU pay for 400 UK University History/Politics posts where the recipient must NOT be anti-EU?
Why does the UK have NO elements of an EU-state in its realms despite it being the oldest democracy whilst micros-state Luxembourg has?
Why should the UK adopt inferior and less-democratic politics when compared to the corrupt and anti-democratic EU?
Why should the UK take orders from France and [MOSTLY] Germany – the nations responsible for the most violence and wars across Europe for the last 2 centuries?
Why should the UK and indeed the EU watch the anti-Anglo-Saxon ‘Euronews’ TV news channel that was specifically created to counter UK and USA influence?
Given that the EU has a 79% Trade Surplus with the UK the affect of the UK leaving if Barriers of Trade were attempted would be worse on EU Member Countries. The EU would also lose it’s 2nd largest Net Contributor.
Scotland will have to realize that if they become Independent joining the EU they will have to find the money to pay to the EU not the rest of the UK.
@gvasco please enlighten me on the benefits of remaining in the EU please because us brits really dont see it and dont say trade thats rubbish we import more than we export
Britain has an unified Royal Army but he said no to an European Army one !
which explains already his dis-interests for Europe ! I think the Eurozone needs to get stronger in many areas!
YES Britain should leave because of its selfinterests !!
The problem for us after our sacrifices for Europe in the 20th century is who would control any EU Army, where would be it’s headquarters. To answer this where is the ECB located and who in discussions between the EU and Greece appears to be calling the shots? Can you see the problem?
@Serge Lauer
The EU as-is is an exercise in the self-interest of Germany and occasionally France – all the other EU countries don’t count as far as Germany is concerned.
There are essentially two ways forward. A Europe of multiple speeds allowing some countries or regions to deepen integration and others to select their degree of integration according to their needs OR a continuation of the current one speed process built on constant compromises that nobody is happy with. I prefer Option 1, but I fear we will see more of the latter. With or without Cameron.
You cannot have a two-tier EU, not long term. Every country would need to become a full and active member.
.
Happy VE Day Mk2
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-vows-earlier-eu-referendum-on-winning-election-with-perhaps-a-little-ukip-help-9957090.html
Not now … but yes, in the future. UK should behave like a UE member, adopt euro, … etc. …. OR ELSE … NOT.
No thank you I think the euro has do e enough damage to the Southern European countries we do t want thag false currency thank you but no thanks. EU is in debt up to its eyeballs thanks to the euro
Most definitely NO
Absolutely not it would put us on the sidelines of the global economy
@Philip Sharp
Like Australia or NZ or Canada?
Don’t be silly!
What to trade with whoever we want. We could make our own trade block and crush the eu if fact I beleive that will end up the way.
Absolutely not!!
We should remain with the EU, however some adjustments could and should be made especially to benefits and housing of immigrants.
@Tony Stansfield
Such adjustments would NOT reduce the traumatic immigration levels that the EU is foisting upon the UK.
Adjustments were promised in the 1975 referendum, never happened
never going to happen tony get us out ,its a failing state anyway look at greece
Germany will not let us leave the EU and Cameron has not got the balls to stand up to her
N-o
No
No … No … No … I sincerely hope that the UK will STAY in the EU in the future. As a european citizen I really believe we in the united EU countries make a stronger argument for trade and macro economics with the world like the united states of america. Together we ARE stronger.
@Nigel Daff
Don’t talk daft!
The EU is too small demographically and geographically to be a major player in the years to come, its influence has been waning for decades.
The UK would be better served in a COMMONWEALTH UNION – same language, similar laws, same Queen and LESS corruption.
It would take 3-5 years to fully create as there is less cultural garbage to wend through as is the case with the current version of the EU.
Sorry but us British know better. This is the start of the end for the eu. And good riddance.
We need to be a Global trading nation again, not be tied to this borderline communist bloc
They have been talking about this by the last 20 years. When are they going to take their final decision? Perhaps in another 20 years?
When we finally get a free and fair referendum. We have been asking for this for over 20 years.
No, not al all.
Yes!!!
I prefer not , but in any case it is not important for economics. British will always intend to unite economics with USA , rather than with EU. It is enough if they stay in NATO together with EU and USA.
@Rudi Spoljarec
Good post.
No
if yes,who’s next?
Yes
Yes the EU is too far from the original purpose.
70 years after WW2 our countries live very close together in peace and we need an organisation that gives a forum to all european countries instead of negotiating treat rules with each country by bilateral contracts. Of course Britain is part of the peaceful and wonderful Europe we live in.
@Rüdiger Lohf
Not if said organisation is a soft-power version of the German Reich.
Well done
yes .
They have been a nuisance to the EU, so if they want to quit, let them go (in peace).
@Christiane Vermoortel
Your disdain for a country that is concerned by the lack of democracy in the EU, is a reason why the UK wants to leave the EU.
We pay for the right to be a nuisance
If they have ano douth they should leave . Bye bye
lol…could be..but.. Mahan it has no sleep..
For the countries to survive and keep their culture, they mus depart from EU. The ideals behind EU was, is and will be grreat, but when it comes time to apply it, they fail. I’m up for regional Alliances, not continental.
Absolutely not.
Yes
No, they should stay inside the Union, it’s part of Europe
50 countries in Europe only 27 in EU. EU is not Europe. Never will be wither.
No.wea big family.
Nope
Nope
Yes, because there would be a more cohesive EU.
Never mind the UK leaving the EU I’m thinking of leaving the UK, not sure I could take another 5 years of these uncaring bastards.
@Steve Garner.
The UK is the 2nd largest charity giver in the world.
The UK is the 2nd largest donor to the EU.
The UK gives £3b/year of its fish to poor countries like France and Spain.
The UK would be pleased if under-informed types like yourself departed these shores…
Yes the sooner the better I’m sick of this country being dumped on by Europe
It may be geographically part of Europe but that’s where it ends I for one am English not European I would like to decide that for myself and not be told what I gave to be.. Thanks.
No. Stupid to leave.
Congratulation Conservative.T
No.
Yep asap
Yes yes yes
Yes
Yes Yes and Yes again
Yes. We dont have to buy trade customers
NO
Yes
Hell no.
Who gives a toss what dish face says. But we all know more ill and disabled will be killed by tory bastard cuts
We fought for freedom in Europe, not to become ruled over by the same country we defeated twice.
The more urgent question to consider, is will Marine le Pen win in France? She has pledged to pull France out of the euro and ultimately France out of the EU. She means it and will do it if given the electoral mandate. If that happens there won’t be an EU to leave, and I very much hope it does.
It would be the saddest thing! Do not leave the EU, we all need to reform it so it works for all of us. Leaving is just a failure for nations of Europe, and giving up a great project, just because some of the politicians manage it badly. No, definitely not!
Can’t reform a dictatoeship wake up and smell the coffee and see what the EU really is.
OF WHAT IMPACT IS UK 4 NOW?FRANCE N GERMAN CARRY D WEIGHT OF EU!
The UK is the 2nd Largest Net Contributor to the EU. France makes a fortune out of the Common Agricultural Policy, the largest expenditure in the EU budget. Get Real
UK and Germany csrry the EU France have a lot of say but contribute 3rd gen any 1st UK 2nd where will you find the extra 15beuros you won’t get from UK. Its a sinking ship.
The main country that will lose by UK leaving is Germany they are going be paying all of the bills for eu the 30 million UK a day comes back and feed the one million UK people using food banks.
Up you ante, UK, put your money, where… well, you know.
But please, make sure you see it through this time.
Too good to be part? Fair enough, and fairwell. We wish you no ill. Just don’t come back anytime soon.
yes
AT ROBERT,U FAIL TO REALISE THAT GERMAN IS RESILIENCE ECONOMICALLY,STRONG POLITICALLY ,SOCIALLY VIABLE AND RELEVANT IN WORLD POLITICS.
The UK pays 55 million a day in to the EU for what ? 75% of our powers have been given to them so we can’t make our own decisions. We did not vote to be in the EU and are entitled to one . Generations have fought and died in wars to keep it from foreign rule . The EU takes more from us then we get back
you’ve never been really European so better to leave Eu
No
yes, sim. oui bastards…
NO…But. They. Have. To Stop. The. Bull shit of. Livening.. And. Work For. United EUROPE .
NO! Fight for Social Democracy across Europe!
Everybody with a Uk passport living abroad should be able to vote. As this was not the case for the general elections. If you have been living abroad for more than 15 years you did not have the right to vote….
The British membership in the EU is ambiguous: On the one hand it helps to subject Europe to the global interests of the US (see NSA, NATO etc.), on the other hand Britain helps to keep the EU more democratic (fighting Brussels centralism).
Yes, because we need to leave the political union of the EU, take power back to the British government, and prosper through the negotiation of free trade agreements without the heavy hand of EU law holding us back.
Your government is incompetent, the UK was bankrupt before the EEC and it still is. You will be subjected to increasing inhumanity and the continuation of Thatcherism. And you deserve it.
IF. England leave EUROPE. The. U.K..will. DISINTIGRATE…..Think about it men….from Malta.
ON what basis? The UK has a 79% Trade Deficit with the EU and is it’s 2nd largest Net Contributor. If the UK left the damage economically to EU countries and EU coffers would be sever.
Yes leave Europe
Aye! There’s no room in Europe for colonial (superior vs inferior) mentality. Just for Farage rethoric and they should “rule an empire” from somewhere near world sphincter.
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@Spencer Cotton
I have to say I concur with your sentiments although I am not too supportive of the profanity.
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Yes, we need to rule our own country! We need to create a more stable immigration system and we need to put British tax payers money into Britain not the EU where it is used to bail out every other country but our own!
Really? You are misinformed.
The UK borrows £8 billion a year from the ECB at 0% interest.
The UK ‘bailed out’ Ireland and charged them 6% interest on the LOAN. Which was paid back with interest.
You deserve to live in the country you just ruined.
Yes without a doubt. Why give the right to govern our own country to another political union of who we had no say who was in it? The people of Great Britain didn’t even have a choice in joining it! We are being sold out! Get us out of it now before it’s too late!
FRM MY OBSERVATION OF THIS PLATFORM,MAJORITY SAYS NO BUT CAMEROON IS PRAGMATICALLY SILENT ABT EU VS UK.WHY?
Acho que sim e o mais rapidamente possvel. J chega de dizer mal e continuar a usufruir
Yes
YES! YES! YES!
Dick
Leaving Europ to go where? Asia, America..the moon??
It is their decision.
Yes
Yes
Definitely not! Tired of listening to the regurgitated lies and propaganda about Europe. Course we’ll prosper in isolation we have such a thriving manufacturing sector…..oh no we don’t do we Maggie destroyed that!
The UK sells us 79% more than we sell them already. It also blocks unilateral agreements with other countries including the Commonwealth which is the worlds largest trading block and with whom the UK has more in common (language/institutions etc). We also have one of the largest Manufacturing Industries in the Developed World and are the 6th largest economy.
Correct should have said “The EU sells us 79% more” at the beginning
Wrong labour destroyed that.
Yes I do want a vote on the EU and my vote will be YES to leave.
I Think Europe is dead, going forward with these policies… Germany should definitely leave the EU.
We are only a dumping ground, we should go it alone
i agree with ya
As a SNP voter, better together, RIGHT?
As a SNP voter I’d say “Better Together”, right?
Bit of a difference between a 400+ year old economic and political union than a 42 year trade block.
BTW did you hear John Swinney last night on QT “SNP want full fiscal control but also want to retain the Barnett Formula” Thought the SNP wanted to split not to keep the credit cards and twice the money?
YES,YES.YES.
Yes control our own borders and taxes instead of being bossed by europe.
Of course NOT!!!!!!!
I was not asked if I wanted to ne tuled by Brussels, a couple of elite MP’s signed our country over to the EU without our consent.
No way
Europe doesn’t care
Nunca fizeram parte dela
Could be leaving the EU ASAP
NO , I hope NEVER ! Britain is one of the most important countries in EU . Britain is very important for EU development and for the most for our democracy .
No never
Absolutely not!
Noooo
I must say it astounds me how so many non British citizens have so much of an opinion about whether we should stay in or leave Europe, i mean you all seem to know exactly what is right for our country, you know the country that our parents, grand parents and great grand parents fought so hard to give us, to allow us to run our country without being dictated to, with pathetic laws that see criminals treated better than their victims because of there human rights!!
Here’s an idea, how about we stay in and fully commit to joining the eurozone, but every member has to be treated the same and put the same amount of money in, also has to offer the same standard of living in each country; at your tax payers expense of course. Then how about Each member has to offer all Europeans the same standard of NHS care and the same social housing and the same benefits system, at your tax payers expense of course, and how about everyone is taxed at the same rate as we currently are, I don’t just mean income tax, I mean council tax, bedroom tax, car tax and VAT at 20%, when this happens then you can have an opinion, until then why don’t you just let us make our own decision as to wether we should be in or out.
Your message is so right. The Conservatives signed the first lot of treaties then New Labour signed treaties all detrimental to our Country and it is about time they admit they were wrong and bring back Britain’s OWN CONTROL. Both Parties can join together to do this and even the Liberal Democrats should do so as all three of them voted Britain to have OPEN BORDERS in 2004 and look at the mess that has made.
Your right but we ain’t leaving Europe we are part of Europe and I love euroow it’s just the shitty EU club we are leaving not Europe. .
UK is part of the European Union. Looking at the past decades at the level of fundamental values, the European Union has achieved peace, democracy and respect for human rights in a large and growing part of the continent of Europe. The UK’s secession would weaken this transformative achievement, which in wider Europe cannot be taken for granted (Russia’s aggression in Ukraine is a reminder of this). United the EU still only represents 8% of the global population.
It has been observed that the UK has been working as promoter of more effective and enhanced (not diluted) EU policies in key single market sectors where there is important work in progress. These include, notably: the single market for services (across the board), financial markets, energy and climate change and the digital sector.
Overall, the evidence supports a common-sense view that British interests are best served by continuing membership of the EU, combined with pushing ahead with reform processes, while retaining its important opt-outs. The essential point is that this conclusion is not a government or party-political statement; it is based on the evidence of a comprehensive collection of voluntary submissions by well-informed and independent stakeholders.
A good response. What has been left out here is that the UK now sits on the 2nd Tier of EU growth and discussion and as a result is having some of its major industries and rights impinged upon with very little say. Opt Outs are being limited and agreements not honoured (such as those achieved by Tony Blair in return for the UK given up a significant percentage of it’s rebate) by the EU.
In addition the real concerns of UK citizens are being ignored, not just by the EU but also by its own politicians who are ideologically committed to the EU and it’s expansion at any cost to the nation state.
In addition the EU has supported and funded a number of comprehensive studies which have considerable errors and only use data in support of the EU. The latest being the republishing of the debunked CReAm Report which was originally published in 2013.
YES, they should leave so we and the rest of the EU can finally work on our European superstate without disturbing party poopers.
They have slowdown the european integration long enough.
Finally I would be happy to elect a european president, but with UK in the European Union a real political union would never be possible.
Germany has been trying to integrate Europe for a century now.
Limbo politics. UK want out of EU, Scotland want out of UK (brexit or no brexit) and banks in case of Brexit want out of UK as well. Guess who’s the real winner ? Thatcherists ?
UK has from the beginning been with one foot out of Europe. To be honest, I believe Charles de Gaulle was right, UK doesn’t belong to the continent! But now it would be disastrous to leave EU. For both sides. And let’s not forget, that if UK leaves EU, that would give to Scotland the chance to split out and abandon England and UK would be dismantled.
GB should leave the EC and face the fact that the threat of a financial crisis is now mainly concerning stronger economies and not the poorest countries that have nothing to lose anymore.
I am against the British exit.If Britain exits the EU,the Federalists will have more power as Britain is the biggest and most powerful nation opposing Federalism in the EU.I am a Maltese citizen and I am against more federalism in the EU.How can someday the Scandinavians have the same taxes,wages,welfare,public services and law as the Southern European nations or developing countries from the ex-Soviet Union such as Bulgaria and Romania??answer,never.
@Fabian Mercieca
I do not want the UK to leave the EU BUT the EU is too corrupt to want to change. For the EU to improve the influence of France must be de-leveraged – the French elite are too selfish to agree to such an option.
I say they should leave.
The attitude of UK has always been of wanting the economic benefits with none of the responsibilities.
It is of course their obligation to pursue the most advantageous position for their citizens, but by looking at it like this it’s clear they want less integration. Therefore, separation followed by a purely economic treaty between EU and UK would be better.
@Andrew
LOL! None of the responsibilities!
The UK is the 2nd biggest charity-giver to the EU.
The UK gives £3b/year of its fish to other EU countries – no other country does this.
The UK now has millions of EU migrants on its shores, causing problems with school places, hospital beds and cohesion.
Your idea about the purely economic treaty though was a good one.
@Tarquin: you got your figures a bit mixed up.
UK is 4th giver by gross amount and also the 4th by net amount(UK gives about 4.6bn, Italy about 4.7, France about 5, Germany more than 7).
There’s no such thing as “giving” fish. That was come crap Farage dreamed when trying to pick at EU fishing policies (which awarded more than 30% of fishing quotas to the UK, more than any other state). That alone proves my point: UK wants the benefits of membership (protected quotas) but no responsibilities (the fact that others get some too).
@Andrew
The following URLs clearly refute your INCORRECT statistics:
http://www.statista.com/chart/2880/uk-contributions-to-the-eu-budget/
http://getbritainout.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Stolen-Seas.pdf
Please try NOT to LIE to support your specious and pathetic arguments.
The UK has a choice to make.
It is not one of IN (with a Negotiated Settlement) or OUT.
It is Leave the EU and retain trading links or Stay in the EU and commit to becoming a full and active partner.
Why do I say this? Because even if it is successful in a negotiated settlement history has shown that over time that settlement would be eroded away. In addition for the EU to truly work every member state has no choice but to become economically and politically entwined. This means using the same currency, having the same laws and have the same sovereign rulers (e.g. Brussels).
This is the real choice for the UK and every other member state.
@Danny Young
In a global economy – economic entwining should NOT be limited to a part of the smallest continent in the world.
Political entwining has meant a race to the bottom of the corruption pit – the EU now enjoys levels of corruption akin to that of Latin nations – none of which are in the TI Top 20.
Furthermore, for true integration, the French and their ‘Verbus Diablo’ must be dropped in favour of the superior (4x bigger than French) and more widely spoken English language – the French elite might have a problem with same.
Tarquin, you are making my point for me. The UK either has to accept this, and further integration or leave. Talk of a new settlement is inane
@Danny Young
Unfortunately, I am now of similar opinion re same.
A referendum is democratically speaking a very good idea. In a sense it would have been preferable if every member state had had one (and I’m a EU federalist), although I understand why it wasn’t so (as it started out as a simple customs union).
The major problem I have with the (probably) upcoming Brexit referendum is that the news coverage and the political debate around the EU are not only strongly biased (to put it politely) but also blatantly inaccurate, meaning that the Brits do not have access to decent information to base their choice on.
Case in point: in the UK Juncker’s election was widely reported as undemocratic, corrupted and basically unacceptable. Rather, legally speaking it was a democratic breakthrough (as for the first time a direct and binding linkage was made between the European elections and the choice of the Psdt of the Commission). To make things even more absurd the election procedure was exactly the same as the one that brought Cameron into power – twice!
@Marie Ximena
The EU election was undemocratic – it does not support 1 person 1 vote. QED.
On the subject of ‘undemocracy’/corruption/unacceptability:
JCJ would never be allowed to yield power in the UK given his alcohol habits, but he is allowed to do so in the EU.
The UK is the 2nd largest EU donor – JCJ visited Ireland on his EU campaign – a country with a population smaller than London and most UK regions but he did NOT visit London, the EU’s biggest and wealthiest city or indeed anywhere in the UK to give a public campaign talk..
On the night of the election the EU stated that the %age of people voting had not [further] declined – weeks later they admitted that was an ‘error’.
EU-philes often cite that most of the UK’s trade is with the EU – when in fact 79% of UK trade is intra-UK and of the remaining 21% less than half and declining is with the EU – the figure is closer to 7% than 10.5% BTW.
EU-philes forget to mention that the ‘Rotterdam effect’ distorts and amplifies the amount of trade that the UK does with the EU.
EU-philes often forget that the UK in addition to being the EUs 2nd largest net donor gives away £3b/yr of its fish to the likes of Portugal and Spain.
EU-philes are unaware that Euronews was specifically created to counter the Anglo-Saxon world view ergo it is a biased and arguably racist news channel.
Clearly ‘INCONTINENT-ALISTS’ like you do not have access to decent information to base your postings on.
Last week’s UK general election did not support the 1 person 1 vote rule either. Was it undemocratic to you?
Churchill was allowed to govern the UK for ten years, and his alcoholism was even more worrisome that Juncker’s.
Your whole declaration about Juncker not visiting London or the UK just shows how little you understand about EU politics, and simultaneously helps me explain just how stupid Cameron’s attempt at a Juncker-evicting manoeuvre was. Juncker was a candidate for the EPP. There was no EPP-affiliated party in the UK following Cameron’s move leading to the creation of the ECR. Consequently, there was no reason at all for Juncker to visit the UK, as there were no potential voters there. His visit to Ireland was perfectly logical as voters who chose Fine Gail in the European election effectively voted for the EPP, as the party is affiliated with it. Cameron’s tantrum upon Juncker’s imminent nomination was the reaction of a teenager who realises that being dramatic and preferring to be on one’s own also means not having the privileges of being part of the group. The facts are that, had Cameron chosen to keep the Conservatives within the EPP, the European Parliament Tories’ votes would have been more than enough to prevent Juncker from being voted as the candidate of the EPP, and the Conservatives could have tilted the balance towards a less federalist candidate. You simply can’t have it all, David.
Regarding your facts and figures: these all deserve to be publicly broadcasted, I never came close to denying that. The UK quite undeniably gives more to the EU than it receives in strictly economic terms, there’s no getting around that. (Although it has to be nuanced: the UK as a whole is a net donor, but many UK regions benefitted tremendously from the EU’s regional policies.)
My personal view is that there is more to EU membership than economic benefits, but in order for there to be a balanced public debate about the multiform aspects of the EU there needs to be a better and more objective coverage of democracy within the EU.
I may be a federalist, but I am far from being the delusional airhead you seem to think I am. I am fully aware that the EU suffers from a shocking lack of transparency and has a chronic democratic deficit in that the upgrading of democratic capacities clearly lags behind the gradual delegation of competences to the EU level. However, European democracy is also undeniably getting better, and has been since the Maastricht Treaty. Allowing European parties to designate candidates for the presidency of the Commission was a groundbreaking step, as it made the EU a fully parliamentarian system with accountability and nominative linkage to the directly elected Parliament. Denying that means that you are not making any effort to be objective in spite of your ideology, whereas I am.
(Just to be clear, I am not saying that the UK must stay in the EU, it has every right to vote. And you have every right – and powerful arguments – to be against EU membership. I am just calling the Brits out, be it their politicians or their media, on their problematic bias specifically on the issue of EU democracy)
Finally, regarding your arguments on Euronews. I follow diversified news outlets so as to inform myself, thank you very much for your concern. However, be aware that you are being biased yourself in your attack. It was indeed created in an attempt to balance out the supremacy of British media, which were the only ones to be widely read across Europe. It is consequently inherently biased, but does not hide it – pretty much every media has an editorial line, it is only healthy in a pluralist democratic system. Euronews endorses EU membership just as the Times endorses the Conservative Party, it is their prerogative if they chose to. I have no problem with Eurosceptic/Europhile media, only with non-pluralist media systems, such as is the case in the UK. My problem with the British media is that on EU issues, their is only one voice to be heard, to the point where they completely misrepresent the EU to British voters.
@Marie Ximena
Please let me CORRECT you, the UK operates 1 person 1 vote, the EU operates 1 person c12 votes as in the case of Luxembourg.
Comparing Churchill with JCJ – are you mad?
It doesn’t matter if there was no UK affiliate to the EPP; the fact is that JCJ DELIBERATELY ignored the UK. What about those people who are NOT Tories and would never be seen in the EPP, a political leader MUST represent those who would vote for him and those who would not, don’t you agree?
Besides, an allegedly democratic EU should NOT seek to control or define the name or composition or the rationale of political parties – that is both FRIGHTENING and ANTI-DEMOCRATIC.
Thanks for admitting that the UK gives far more to the EU than it gets back – but might I draw your attention to 2 points on the UK donor money to the EU that was used in certain poor UK areas that you should know about:
1…EU sponsored projects in the UK are sleight of hand, whatever the UK gets from the EU is c50% of what it gives to the EU – at the end of the day the EU gets credit for taking the UK’s donations, approximately halving them and then dropping a few percentage points off what’s left due to corruption and [mal]administration and then finally forcing the UK to match-fund a project ‘sponsored’ by the EU – WHAT A JOKE.
2…9 of the 10 poorest Northern EU regions are in the UK.
Your defensive comments about Euronews are LAUGHABLE. TV News channels based in the UK are NOT allowed to be partisan eg the BBC. Unfortunately as you have stated Euronews is partisan as is France24.
On the UK newspaper front the 2 most important newspapers in the UK viz. the Daily Mail and the Guardian are anti-EU and pro-EU respectively.
You seem open to information – I hope you can divulge this post and think more cogently on why the UK gets a bad deal from the EU.
If Britain leaves it would have a rippling effect across Europe, especially to major trade partners such as Ireland and France. It would damage the credibility of the EU as an ideology and as a functioning judicial body. My message to David Cameron: think about the entirety of Europe, not just Great Britain!
I think Ireland would basically implode if the UK left the EU lol. Seriously though, Ireland would most likely leave too in the long-run just to remain competitive.
It comes down to a vote in a referendum that is supposed to come up in the next couple yrs. The vote will decide in or out. A lot of people want out but give or take roughly the same figure want in. Personally I would prefer that Britain stays in. No doubting the EU needs significant reform but I believe that’s the sentiment from the continent also.
hi i Think there is a democracy problem in the eu the parliament must have a stronger voice but the people of theeu must also be able to vote directly on WHOs going to be eu president or commissioner etc a direct democracy on some levels likeee switzerlandd and also indirect democracy via the parliament and commissioners from each country democracy on different levels more like the usa. but also very different of course because of our sovereign states that can collaborate. europé must be a stronger force in global World a soft Power but with a strong eu battlegroup to be deployed whenever is needed………. a green economy sustainable and a eu for the future……..go eu johnnyb.
Economy of UK is already very strong. They can stand on their own without EU support.
If we were outside the EU now, looking in, at it’s progress, who would vote to join now? …..Then why should we stay in?
If we were not in the EU, and looking in at its disastrous progress from outside, who would vote to join? No one I think, so why should we stay? Don’t say trade, 3 million UK jobs may be depend on EU trade, but 7 million EU jobs depend on trade with the UK. We would trade with the EU, but on our terms, not theirs.
The British economy is worth roughly three trillion dollars, whereas the EU economy is about four or five times that size (and that’s NOT including the contribution made by the UK). It’s simply not true to suggest that they need us more than we need them.
Also, you seem to be implying that trading with the EU on “our terms, not theirs” would mean gaining access to the Single Market without signing up to EU rules. I’m sorry, but that’s hopelessly naive. Even if EU negotiators were willing to make that concession (and that, as they say, is a big “if”) there is no way that European businesses would allow that. Of course they want trade with the UK, but they would never allow UK companies to compete unfairly.
We will be outside the decision-making process, but signed up to all the EU laws anyway.
@James McManama
YOU ARE WRONG!
In absolute terms the EU is more reliant on the UK jobs-wise than the UK is on the EU jobs-wise.
Furthermore, over 1 million EU migrants work in the UK, thus only 2 Million UK jobs done by UK people involve EU trade whilst 8 million EU jobs involve trading with the UK.
BTW, the UK is rarely involved in the decision-making process, despite it being the 2nd-biggest net donor to the EU + it gives £3b/yr in fish to the EU. It has nothing to do with ‘making alliances’ it has to do with Germany and France PUSHING their own agenda.
@Tarquin Farquhar Yes, but why are you calculating in absolute terms? If exit negotiations take place, they will not be based on absolute terms but on the relative impact of the different options available. And, in relative terms, we need the EU much more than the EU needs us.
The UK has less influence than it should in the EU because it is only half-engaged with European policymaking. Britain has roughly 10% of all MEPs in the European Parliament, yet 23 of those British MEPs belong to UKIP and have the lowest attendance record of any party in the Parliament. They can’t even be bothered to take part in votes that could REDUCE the influence of European legislation (but they’re happy to take the money – in fact, they’re happy to fiddle their expenses and take more money than they’re entitled to).
The governing British Conservative party also pulled out of the centre-right European People’s Party, which is largely the reason David Cameron so spectacularly (and publicly) failed to block Jean-Claude Juncker as Commission President, despite Merkel and other EPP leaders being so cool towards him. There will also never be a British Conservative President of the European Commission while the Tories refuse to sit with the EPP.
The UK is also steadily atrophying influence in the European Commission, as high-ranking British officials resign but younger Britons aren’t joining the Commission to replace them. According to the Financial Times: “Britons were often reluctant to join the Commission because of ‘constant Europe-bashing’ back home.”
So, yes, the UK has less influence than it should. But it’s not because of “Germany and France PUSHING their own agenda”.
@James McManama
I applaud you for admitting you were wrong in your original post I responded to, bravo!
As regards your relative argument – that remains to be seen – if the UK leaves there could be a domino effect and there could be no-EU if not a much diminished EU, the UK could join NAFTA or indeed set up a COMMONWEALTH UNION.
De Gaulle refused the UK entry into the EC/EU because he wanted to skew the EC/EU to France’s benefit – hence the cards are stacked against the UK WRT its influence in the EU. Take a look at the link below for proof that the UK has little influence in the EU:
http://businessforbritain.org/2014/03/25/britains-lack-of-influence-in-the-eu-revealed/
55 TIMES since 1996 has a UK ‘NO’ vote been ignored by the Council of Ministers – such a situation does not represent a lack of influence in the UK, it represents outright and absolute HATE for the UK situation in the EU by the other EU nations..
BTW, the EU deserves to be ‘bashed’ on occasion as it:
offers lower levels of democracy than the UK,
offers higher levels of corruption than the UK,
is anti-Anglo-Saxon eg Euronews created specifically to counter the Anglo-Saxon perspective,
it uniquely in the EU is taxed c £3b/yr in the form of the FISH TAX.
The whole concept of the EU is floored – the EU is far too small both demographically and geographically to be a big ‘pole’ in a multi-polar world – it will need to combine with either NAFTA or the EURASIAN UNION for it to be of any significance in a multi-polar world.
@Tarquin Farquhar You’re wilfully misrepresenting my point. The UK is currently punching below its weight when it comes to EU policymaking, but such a situation is still preferable to having no influence at all.
If we were outside of European Council, Parliament and Commission, then we would still pay into the EU coffers and follow EU laws as the price of Single Market access, but we would only hear about our new laws second-hand (“fax democracy”).
As to your point about Brexit leading to the collapse of the EU (and, therefore, the Eurozone), the chaos caused by the collapse of the world’s second largest reserve currency would plunge the global economy into a crisis that would make the collapse of Lehman Brothers look like a walk in the proverbial park. The UK would not profit in a situation like this.
And do you really think a “Commonwealth Union” is a serious proposal? You sound like you’re trying to resurrect the British Empire. You honestly believe the Indian economy is less bureaucratic and more open to external trade than the EU economy?
As to your point about de Gaulle – if the British had joined the EEC from inception instead of forming the rival EFTA then it could have shaped the community more to its own liking. There is a lesson there: if we leave the EU, then we will be unable to shape its development. When we inevitably reapply for membership, it will again resemble something more suited to other countries’ interests. The point is: if you want to shape an organisations’ development then you can’t do it from outside.
As for the “Business for Britain” report, it’s thoroughly misleading. There is a norm of consensus in the Council, so EU governments usually voice opposition during the negotiation phase and refrain from voting against legislation at the final voting stage. So it’s rare that votes aren’t unanimous in the Council (in 2008, for example, 128 out of 147 Council decisions were unanimous).
@James McManama
You wilfully confuse the collapse of the Euro with the collapse of the EU, the 2 are not 100% correlated dear chap.
BTW, if a Brexit is considered such a dire state of affairs for the EU then the EU should stop mucking about and cede to the UK’s decent requests:
Improve democracy, QUICKLY.
Reduce corruption, including jailing some well known EU political [corrupt] celebs.
Remove the ‘lose your pension if you whistle-blow on the EU’ clause cited in many EU politicos’/civil-servants’ contracts.
Break the current EU-AXIS-DIRECTORATE of Germany and France and expand it to include the UK and Italy.
Make English the only official language of the EU thereby reducing the disingenuous behaviour frequently exemplified by JCJ – say good things about the English in English and bad things about the English in French/German.
Institute controlled immigration from the INCONTINENT, I as a non-white Brit am not against immigration, I just want it slowed down for a while, whilst the UK’s infrastructure etc catches up with the massive INCONTINENT-lead surge of demand.
Give the UK its fishing grounds back – this UNIQUELY and UNFAIRLY costs the UK c£3b/yr.
As regards a Commonwealth – setting one up would not take as long as an EU for reasons aforementioned; indeed, it would only be an economic bloc NOT a political bloc.
PS: Your argument about demography not mattering was, to put it politely INACCURATE.
PPS: Your argument about geography not mattering was, to put it politely INACCURATE.
YES WE SHOULD LEAVE IF I WANT TO BE AN EUROPEAN I WOULD GO TO EUROPE,
Correct. I still have a question though, how U.K will keep this unprecedented economic growth curve without EU ?
Lets face it:
Finally, the TOP DOWN EU cliche of “unity in diversity” has been bowled over! BOTTOM UP ”diverse unity” clearly won the majority votes- both in the UK & Scotland and should worry all EU-philes!
What & who is the EU? Does anybody really know? Neither a federation, nor a confederation nor a parliamentary sovereign nor a commonwealth of nations or an empire state (maybe a stately empire) but rather closer to a SUZERAIN with 28 vassal states paying tribute in form of custom duties, GNI-based resources & Vat as ‘protection fee’- overseen by the EU’s HLGOR.
Lets recap:
It started with “The Schuman Declaration” (‘the supranational 6 ECSC: France, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg on 9 May 1950 by signing an ECONOMIC “Treaty of Paris” on 18 April 1951- each member retaining full sovereignty.
Today:
We have a global 70 year victory celebration in- from the west isolated- Russia (BRICS) within a divided Europe of 28 non sovereign EU members- looking on. The SUZERAIN mesmerized (“alias snake charmer”) all once sovereign states to hand over most of their sovereignty (granting one (1) initial & FINAL fudged referendum) in return for subordination. Basically, UN membership requires applicants to possess full sovereignty! Why risk to give it up in a moment of EU social delirium? Why not remain sovereign & a UN member & an “associate” with the EU?
Maybe, the EU poker game might start with a 2015 Grexit and end with a 2017 Brexit to finally (re)write “the mother of all EU treaties” acceptable to all- by remaining fully sovereign not suzerain! Please stop the ‘provincial bickering’!
How can you talk about the EU and refer to democracy? The EU is an undemocratic, corrupt, unaccountable, dictatorship.You cannot vote for or against it, if people cannot see that I don’t know what to say. The only people that really benefit are politicians who are on the gravy train.
I truely wish to leave, preferably today!
Yes, britan should leave the E,U. Can’t afford to stay in with all this immigration and become a closed country
Yes,a resounding yes.
Yes leave why should other countries tell us what we can and can’t do as in immigration leaving our borders open isn’t just silly it’s dangerous all sorts of criminals getting in and not checked
Andrew, if the UK left the EU then more immigration would likely come from North Africa / Middle East and less from Europe.
@Al.
That’s right and they would stay in the EU as UK borders would be controlled.
@Tarquin
If you anything about it you would know that EU immigration is your best kind of immigration, as most come to study or for jobs either way they pay some form of taxes and generally don’t get many benefits. However the same cannot be said for other immigrants especially those from the Commonwealth.
Gvasco, I suppose you are basing this on the report that came out this year stating that EU migration had a positive impact on the UK’s economy.
So many people make this assertion without realising the truth about the report. The CReAM Report was funded by the EU and originally published in 2013 when it was debunked by all serious academics as using outdated data, ignoring existing data, using different age samples etc. The list of errors was endless.
The report was then re-issued this year with the caveat that these errors had been dealt with, however under peer review it was found that few had been dealt with effectively. There had been no changed in the age samples (comparison of working age EU migrants v 0-90 year old UK and non-EU sample), they researchers failed to update their data stacks and also stated that information readily available did not exist.
Research by others including the House of Commons and House of Lord’s Library Specialists whose job is to provide unbiased information to MP, Lords and Ministers has stated that at the best EU migration has had no impact, at worst up to £97bn negative impact once in work and other benefits are calculated in from 1997-2013.
@Gvasco
WRONG!
Most EU immigrants to the UK come from countries with high-levels of corruption as specified by TI and too their mother-tongue tends not to be English.
I’d prefer Australians or New Zealanders or Canadians any day over INCONTINENTALISTS.
I’m not british myself, but I do hope England (we shouldn’t make assumptions about the Scotts) leaves the EU. They are a constant source of imperialist arrogance and are an obstacle to greater integration. These are the people that are the forefathers of rampant capitalism, exploitation of workers, material and cultural collonialism, inventors of poor laws and work houses and who are more worried about corporate interests than the prosperity of citizens. Furthermore, they have the totally unfair single-winner electoral system, do not have a constitution and do not have a real seperation of legislative and executive powers. let them leave.
Unlike many European countries Magdelana the UK has never needed to enshrine the rights of its peoples into a constitution because we have centuries of case and precedent to build upon from the Magna Carta onwards.
The UK does not have an imperialist arrogance rather we have an independent mind set that does not stand being ridden over. You should be thankful for this as in the last century it is the only thing that saved Europe from being overrun by Germany. This time we may not be able to save you from Germany’s political and economic takeover.
A lot of youngsters who are pro-EU have never experienced the time when the United Kingdom was a strong and respected force, WITHOUT having to belong to a European club. All this twaddle about Britain can’t manage outside the EU, so many fools have lapped up what the politicians tell them. What we should be doing is having full control of our borders; instead of stopping immigration completely, we should be doing a points system just like other countries do. We should only encourage take-in for skills where we have genuine shortages. We don’t need Big Issue sellers or street-corner musicians. Our own youngsters have been discriminated against and smeared by the MSM as lazy layabouts, which in the main isn’t true, it is only said in order to promote more cheap labour into the country.
Our benefits system is being drained by foreign people sending money home to their families; and we are expected to provide more and more homes for these people as they pour in. Anyone who cannot grasp the simple fact that this has been a massive social engineering project must be a nail short of two planks.
Immigrants are welcome when the country is at ease with handling them and they have jobs to come to. But NOT when our own folk have to go short of services, schooling, medicines and housing in order to satisfy the dictates of the foreign power that now rules over us. It’s easy to talk and shout “racist” when you yourself are comfortable, with money and have a job.
Just wait till folk have to start paying for every mile they drive their car, courtesy of little black boxes; on top of the fuel they have to buy, the road tax they have to pay and the insurance costs. Anyone who thinks it is great to sell Britain off to a foreign power is a traitor.
United we stand, separate we fail. It is always easy to leave the boat when it smells ashes but leaving is weak and selfish.
Sadly I think that it is inevitable that the UK will leave the EU. That said, as things stand I would not support continued membership.
We were sold a common market back in the 70’s and those who pointed out the political integration element were told it wouldn’t happen by arrogant politicians who thought that they could prevent it. It is now more clear than ever that the ultimate goal is the creation of a federal United States of Europe despite the assurances to the contrary of a bunch of untrustworthy European politicians and technocrats who view democracy and the wishes of the electorate who pay their wages as a bit of an inconvenience that should be ignored or circumvented whenever possible.
The British people do not want a political union and never have. I do not know if the same is true for people in other countries in the EU, but any new treaty to reach such a union would involve transfer of powers to Brussels that would trigger an un winnable referendum in the UK. Therefore it would be far more sensible for a reasonable, negotiated exit to be agreed now so as to enable those countries that wished to proceed with political union to proceed, un hindered by us pesky brits.
As for those who say that we would have no say over standard and so on in the EU if we are honest, we have precious little now. We have no influence over standards in other parts of the world but still trade with those countries. Leaving would give us back full control over justice, immigration, security, defence and a raft of other areas that the EU has chosen to meddle in. This does not mean that we could not or would not co-operate with our European neighbours on an equitable basis.
For my own perspective itwould require something that would be totally unacceptable to the rest of the EU member countries in order to convert me to a stay in the union position.
1: The abolition or the European Parliament which adds a lot of cost whilst adding no value. interferes in EU legislation in ways that it has no mandate to and which is basically no democratically accountable. (Being allowed to vote for it is note democratic accountability since you cant vote out a form of government that doesn’t have a manifesto therefore can hardly claim that it has a mandate to implement a pre stated set of policies. Their only policy is that they want more Europe and more power for themselves (preferable without the inconvenience of being held accountable)
2: Replacement of the term European citizen in the treaties with the term citizens of the member states of the European Union. Only the EU could reinvent the meaning of the words citizen and citizenship for its own underhand devious ends. If we truly have dual citizenship i.e. citizenship of our own nations and citizenship of the EU then there is no legal reason that we should not be allowed to renounce our EU citizenship because it would no make us stateless perons. But when to write to them to renounce EU citizenship they write back and tell you it is not citizenship in the generally accepted term so you cant. WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT? Because when they form United States of Europe, the minute the signature goes on the treaty your country will cease to be a nation and as such you will not have citizenship of your own country. At that moment the term citizen of the European Union will magically revert to the meaning that we ordinary folk give to it.
In parting I would like to comment on a couple of points raised by other contributors:
Tarquin Farquhar claims that the EU is too small geographically and demographically to be significant in todays world. Lets be honest here neither of these things is that importan. What is more important is wealth relative to the rest of the world and in that sense the EU is up there.
Another contributor claimed that if we left the EU and stopped EU immigration it would lead to greater levels of immigration from other parts of the world. This contributor fails to point out that if the UK government wanted to it could block all immigration from the rest of the world right now. However there is nothing it can do about immigration from the EU.
@Paul W
Relative wealth is important but NOT at all costs. Democracy is important too – I don’t want to live in a country turning into a China Mk 2.
As regards your assertion that the UK government wants to stop all immigration – that is WRONG; No UK party with MPs stipulates stopping immigration 100% – just CONTROLLING immigration like Australia does.
1: The eu parliament doesn’t interfere with anything like any other parliament they pass new laws called directive which have to be implemented by European countries. Second it is democratically accountable as your own parliament, EMP’s get elected by their own states and work to promote or counter new directives.
2: EU citizenship is awarded automatically because you are a citizen of an EU member country. So to rescind your EU citizenship you’d need to rescind your UK citizenship as that is the only way.
Being an EU citizen allows you to go on holidays anywhere in Europe without having to apply for visas. It allows to go and live and work somewhere with the same rights as a national of that country.
As for immigration you already have lots more immigration from the rest of the world then from the EU. Not to mention that EU immigrants contribute more than they take to the UK economy.
@Gvasco
1…WRONG!
http://www.cer.org.uk/in-the-press/how-reduce-eus-democratic-deficit
+
read some of my other posts regarding same on this very forum.
2…LOL!
3…Oh, so the offer of a holiday on the ‘incontinent’ is worth giving up my democracy for!?
UK and Scotland want continue within the European Union reformed Democracy rights
We are big enough and strong enough to make our own choices!!
not after Scotland left! You will be a minnow on the world stage.
What 3 Million people out of 65 Million. You really have been hoodwinked by the fishes
We need out of the corrupt EU and spend the money in our own country, we need to build up our Army,Airforce and Marines to protect our selves, the sooner we are out the better
I would look at corruption in the UK before accusing the EU of corruption.
Uk should leave EU becouse EU liders are corumped and and it lead to disaster
It’s about time we got our country back. We should control our own borders, our own laws, our own fisheries. Our country should be run by our elected MPs in Westminster, not the un-elected bureaucrats in Brussels. It’s time we regained our sovereignty. The only people who benefit from EU membership are corporate bigwigs – not the ordinary man. If you care about Britain then join UKIP and do your bit.
The bureaucrats you talk of are not unelected. Maybe unelected by you if you didn’t vote in the EU elections but hey that’s your problem. The UK still controls its fisheries it just has to do it under EU’s laws within the quotas given to them. Your parliament still has the power of passing laws just occasionally has to pass in a law that was passed first by the EU parliament. You can control foreign emigration just not european one. The EU immigrants that come with jobs or to study and contribute by paying taxes are not the ones putting weight on UK’s benefit schemes.
The single reason the Conservatives won this selection mandate we had last week is purely because they offered a cast iron promise of a referendum of in/out on the EU. The British foolishly believe the EU are the reason we have mass immigration and politically correct policies forced on us against our will. Even though Cameron has already began waving the PC flag in our faces this morning with the incompetant women he must be seen to have on his front bench. That old chestnut of what is between their legs rather than between their ears being the thrust he has gone with. Priti Patel being the front runner.
However, I wouldn’t worry too much about an in out referendum in the UK, they are very competant at election fraud. A lot like the USA. So, watch the propaganda press from now to the vote and you will see how the turn out and answer to the question will be.
The British people definitely want out of Europe, as they want rid of ‘political correctness’ and ‘mass immigration,’ (the competing parities openly offered us more of that) and they believe having voted for the Tory crew, that is what they are going to get. If it wasn’t so terribly sad it would be hilariously funny. And of course, our opposition Labour party is using this win to once again follow the Blair creature and his bent side kick Mandelson to put in their puppet American loving con man spiv, the African mix, Chuka Ummuna to lead us on the expected 2020 downfall. They obviously side with suicide packs or feel, in five years time, we will have such a big enough population of immigrants, akin to London where Labour won outright, that they will once again be able to rub the British peoples noses in it.
Cameron and his party would not have won this election without the outspokeness of Nigel Farage. They should be very grateful to him. And Nigel is absolutely right when he tells us we will now simply have more of the same. Nigel somehow lost his bottle toward the end of this relentless charade leading up to this vote. He should spill the beans about what really happened to him in the run up.
And, as a little awakening for all you Europeans reading this thread, the first act our new government is to immediately center removing us from the ‘Human Rights Act’ and the all consuming removal of welfare from our disabled, elderly, and mentally ill people in order to save £12 billion for their generous friends and the monarchy to make sure they will have more to get by on.
Of course, they don’t want to have that tax payers money going toward paying out for the millions of boat survivors we will be sucking up like a sponge coming in from Libya and Africa, they are only there to aid our wealthy to pay us all less than a living wage.
And my last line is, we, the British public, deserve all we get, we voted for this crock with a good majority. If, of course, it wasn’t one of our famous rigged ballots. That said though, what alternative did they really have?
A horrible prediction, written so eloquently no buffoon questioned your unfaltering logic. If England had 50% more people like you, I would not have left 5 years ago. I saw this coming and it is not pretty. I wish you the best of luck, maybe get out while you still can.
One more little bit of information for all you citizens of Europe, if you want to directly speak your mind to our government of unelected but very powerful legislative group of half wits, use the internet to go to ‘Lords of the Blog’ where you will find a forum similar to this, and tell them of your discomfort. They will love to hear from you I’m sure.
Remember, it’s called Lords of the Blog. You never know, maybe you will be able to affect their thinking on the politics of the European people.
Yes, Britain needs to leave the EU, Its a serious concern for British citizens and Britain’s sovereignty. The EU was originally Adolf Hitler’s found and Britain should not have even gone near it , Let alone being governed by it. The EU have turned Britain into a third world country by allowing criminals to take advantage of the Benefits, NHS and Education whilst hiding their background through an EU generated jobs and skills criteria that allows EU citizens to wipe their past criminal records slate clean, take up jobs that a British citizen could have taken but the Government doesn’t want British citizens to have any access to British jobs because that will bancrupt the jobcentres and break European laws.
This is typical of the EU, wait until the UK elections have just finished before announcing proposals like this
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32685942
They didn’t dare suggest this a week ago knowing the effect it would have on the vote, this is infantile politics at it’s best and the sooner we stop these idiots having any influence on our lives the better
No one takes British jobs, people apply and if they get the job maybe it’s because they’re better qualified for it?Have you ever considered that it is actually a lot of British that abuse benefits and live off of these quite happily without wanting to take up a job? Have you ever looked at the pregnancy rate in the UK and how that takes a toll on the benefits?
Saying that the EU is Hitler’s found just shows how little you know about the EU as the EU was started to promote better business between EU countries and to prevent more wars in Europe. I’m not going to say it’s a perfect Union but it’s still a young Union and with work hopefully it will get better. The UK still has a lot of power over it’s law and economic systems the EU hasn’t taken that away, the UK simply agreed to have some laws and some power being transferred to the EU when it joined and signed the Treaties that came after wards.
Gvasco, Maybe it’s because they are willing to work for less on the basis that they will receive our rather inflated “In Work Benefits”. If they were not granted access to those or out of work benefits and housing then immigration would probably fall. But it is the UK’s fault that their benefit system is over-generous.
You have obviously not looked at he UK’s preganancy rate. In 2013 26.5% of all UK births were to non-UK mothers. The average family soze of UK born parents is 1.79, the average on non-uk born parents is 2.29. Now imagine how much of a toll that 26.5% has on benefits?
You are assuming that all those foreign families get benefits. Ever considered that most of those families will also have jobs and be paying taxes? Plus you are putting EU migrants in the same basket as immigrants from other parts of the world. Ever considered that those that place the biggest burden on benefits are not the EU nationals but those that come from Commonwealth countries and other parts of the world?
Despite that high number of births by non-uk nationals that’s only 1/4 of the all the births meaning that the 3/4 were by uk nationals. Now consider the high rate of teen pregnancies which will have the biggest burden on benefits (yes teen pregnancy rates are going down but still some of the highest in europe).
Anyway you still have many more UK nationals claiming benefits than you have non-uk nationals.
Here are a few articles on which I’ve based my arguments:
https://fullfact.org/factchecks/migrants_foreign_nationals_benefits_claim_likely_UK-27395
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/european-immigrants-contribute-5bn-to-uk-economy-but-noneu-migrants-cost-118bn-9840170.html
@ Gvasco
Reference your (often) quoted links
It’s nothing to shout about that “ONLY 6%” of benefit claimants are non-UK while 15% are UK nationals, the percentage of non UK nationals entitled to claim benefits should be a big fat zero, end of
And as for immigrants and their supposed “5Bn contribution” to the economy, do people think there are lots of jobs around that would not get done unless an immigrant arrives and starts making a contribution? For every immigrant making a contribution there is probably a UK national out of work claiming benefits so the net value is zero – and don’t start on the often spouted “immigrants do jobs that UK nationals don’t want” that is utter bullsh!t. Go to any agricultural area and speak to those who used to be employed on seasonal work who’s jobs are now taken by immigrants with no family or housing responsibilities who live in a caravan and are prepared to work for peanuts
Gvasco, You keep referring to how much EU migrants put into the economy the newspaper you reference is referring to the CReAM Report. See my other responses to you on this and the rather debunked CReAM Report, despite being published twice (2013 & 2015). This is the one that all pro-EU people rely on but it is so full of holes that if it were a boat it would sink.
You have also not taken into account how many of those births a from people for whom British Nationality is only 1 generation (i.e. themselves). Perhaps review ONS, House of Lords and House of Commons papers on this.
In fact, none of the UK issues around abuse of the NHS, education system and/or benefits are driven by the EU. The EU does not support abuse in any country – they laid out a plan for all EU citizens to be able to move and add economic value within Europe. They did not write into this, the ability for people to be an economic burden to any country. This is a pure UK government item, which they are within their rules to stop. You cannot turn up in Belgium and get any benefits if you have not contributed to the system. So first, as the UK, learn from best practice and implement the guidelines as they were approved and you will save your tax payers/citizens a lot of problems.
You are quite correct. However the original problem was caused by a ECHR ruling which caused a change to the founding principals. These originally included the free movement of workers, or those with offers of employment. The ruling stated that this was unfair and that the principal should be the free movement of people irrespective as to whether they were going to a country to work or not.
Are you for real if 300k extra people on top of already rising population don’t out strain in our services I suggest you go back to school and redo your maths
The British only know the European Union through the filter of its published media which is owned mainly by anti-Europeans. How the EU works seems is barely comprehensible and its purpose is never discussed intelligibly. No wonder then that a growing number of my fellow citizens are veering towards disenchantment with the European project and are unaware that very many of our fellow Europeans feel very much the same in every country.
Yes we could leave but how much better would it be if our politians both national and European worked a lot harder to promote a vision for Europe rather being constrained the dismally shallow views of the economists. I think it would be fair to say that Rome or more recently the Large Hadron Collider would never have been built if economists had been listened to. Europe should be so much greater than the sum of its parts. It’s a shame that some of its parts are heading towards nationalism and irrelevance.
Completely agree with your comment!
But what is the purpose of the EU? Is it trade or is it to create a Political Union? If a political union then how will that leave each member states parliaments and in the case of the UK, Monarchy. How will we move towards a more US style of election and governance, or is a different form proposed.
These are the questions that need answering before anyone can decide whether they wish to stay or leave.
I disagree what is this Vision that you talk about that we have never had a say on what vision to break our country up into regions what vision to control all our lives without even a say about it.
Is this the same anti-European media that desperately wanted us to be in?
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/howthebritishmedia.htm
Danny you are right these some of the questions that need debating but trade and or political union are the mechanics of the EU not the Purpose. Surely when nearly 30 million people are unemployed in Europe whilst we are importing billions of Euros/£ worth low quality products from countries who use the equivalent to slave labour then there is a solution that an organisation and large and as powerful as the EU can with a little imagination could resolve this situation. If I can think of several solutions then surely so can our worldly wise politicians can come up with a few. There are so many practical global problems that the EU should be focused on that would leave the national and regional politicians free to sweet the small stuff.
Keith thanks I expect you are also right about my IQ and It could be that my use of the word vision is a bit impractical but we have just had an election where none of the political parties could tell us where they wanted to take the ship of state but they all wanted to tell us how they would be better than the other guy in maintaining the engine oil. I would have liked a little vision from the bridge.
Paul X…. interesting but a little out of date.
Fintail If the EU acted as an Integrated Trade Block rather than keep focussing on expansion and creating an economic and political state then perhaps they could do just as you suggest. The EU has a number of member states especially from Eastern Europe who would fit the bill for such development. This would aid those countries and also reduce migration. Instead the EU ignores this issue and lets countries depopulate. One has to wonder why?
Danny an ‘Integrated’ Trade Block sounds a little like an ‘economic and political union’ rather like a United Kingdom. The expansion thing does seem to have gone a bit far except that it was and is voluntary. What has happened is that it has become very unwieldy thus it is hard to see whether is potentially corrupt or just outrageously inefficient, either way maybe, just maybe, Cameron has inadvertently lit a spark that will lead to us sending our front rank negotiators to Strasbourg/Brussels rather than washed out politicos. This time we really do have something serious to lose.
Fintail, I agree we do have a lot to lose. This is why I believe that pre-referendum the UK must be aware of the real choices, this is not an IN/OUT referendum but a referendum on the future of the nation state.
Do we leave and forge a new future outside of the EU as a trading partner?
Or do we stay and accept that at some time in the future we will have to give up sovereignty, the ability to control our state and the £?
These are the options.
Look at today’s announcement ref the med migrants and quota’s. The proposed system take no account of population density, Foreign Aid Contributions or National Debt ratio. Neither does it take into account the number of migrants granted asylum who then head for Calais and the UK. This will be the future for the UK if we stay and people need to understand the starl options.
I think it’s hilarious how all the other European countries think that we want to bum lick America. No we want to leave because the EU takes the piss out of us, we give so much money yet we’re unable to control immigration. I live in London and it’s just overly ridiculous.
The thing is… If the EU and Britain are able to renogiate some terms then we’d be happy to stay. Thing is we know it won’t and our country can’t take this much longer.
Oh and btw…. We’re Great Britain for a reason. Remember that, we stood alone once… We can do it again!
Everyone stood alone once in the past in different circumstances, if you think the UK will be able to regain it’s influence after leaving then you know very little and need to read some more about it. Most of the UK’s industry would feel massive repercussions from leaving the EU with business would be slower due to get bureaucratic load created by separation as all trade would be taxed and justified again. Considering most of UK’s commerce is with the EU.
The EU and Britain don’t need to renegotiate anything all the terms as they are have been accepted by your politicians so your 2 options is either to accept this reality and stay or move on with the referendum and leave. Then after leaving you can establish a trading union like Switzerland and Norway but you will still have to bow down to the EU’s conditions to do this.
Gvasco, The problem is what is the reality? It is not the Trading Block that the UK voted to join but a full on political and economic state. UK Citizens need to be aware of this, this is not a matter of just renegotiating an agreement and staying it is a matter of “if you stay then you will need to give up more sovereignty, give up economic freedon and the £, and agree to be legislated and run from Europe. Most UK Citizens are unlikely to support this.
As regards trade, you will be aware that the EU has a 79% Trade Surplus with the UK and that therefore any barriers would actually be more harmful to EU states than to the UK. You should also be aware that in relation to product standards etc BSI standards are quite often the chosen standard for European Norms and where they are not many more are taken up by ISO.
So what condition would we need to bow down to? Our trade with EU is insignificant in comparision to our trade outside.
> If the EU and Britain are able to renogiate some terms
That’s not quite how it works, though. What we’re talking about here is ultimately an international contract. A binding agreement between 28 nations, nothing more, nothing less. The UK is a single gear in this, even though granted it is one of the bigger ones.
Within this contract, all nations are equal to begin with – obviously. There is no sense in one of them coming forward and suddenly demanding different terms with ‘you lot’. Least of all on the grounds of some self-perceived import which should warrant a special arrangement. There’s also no point negotiating with the EU. No one and nothing in “Brussels” has any competence here. That’s not their job. Its’s a fundamental misconception to think that a contract change itself.
Instead, you must negotiate with all of the 27 other member nations – individually.
So to be practical: you’d have to be so large in many respects that you dominate everyone else and no one can sensibly defy your will. But the UK is not the US. Not even close. No one in the EU is, luckily.
Or you’d have to form a coalition with a good number of other members also wanting a change big enough to warrant a total re-negotiation. That’s a difficult task to say the least.
> Remember that, we stood alone once… We can do it again!
That, in fact, is ‘your’ right, as much as it is the right of any of the other members. Just leave – it’s that simple. A letter from your government to the other 27 will suffice. After that, the contract requires negotiations over the parting terms, but even if those stall or fail for some reason – after 2 years at the very most, union law will automatically and definitely cease to apply in the UK.
At which point the UK is free to do as it pleases in all respects as a totally independent nation. Barring of course a number of other international contracts such as with NATO or the UN, and quite a few other freedom-limiting entities which still would have to be taken care of.
A programme need to be made total unbiased pros and cons then let the public decide. But it must be unbiased and we need to know everything.
The UE serves no practical purpose other than paying salaries of EU commissioners and MEPs, co-operation is already happening between various countries, thats the reason they have diplomats and embassies in the first place. The European Union is a sham of gigantic proportions to introduce another level of bureaucracy onto an already overburdened population. If you dont realize this your IQ is most likely <100.
Road Rage May 9th, 2015
Yeah whatever, you can stick your EU up your continental dirt bikes boxes, we’re Britons not Europeans
~~~
This is just comical. Did the tectonic plates shift? What re you then? Atlantian? Martian?
Britain (or Great Britain) is a Geographic description for England, Scotland and Wales so the term is correct.
Europeans refers to someone who lives in Europe so you were both technically correct.
Should the UK leave not so much left of a UNITED Kingdom. Scotland will have another referendum and will separate this time.
Perhaps that is a discussion that needs to take place should there be a successful Out referendum. However voting for that referendum needs to be on the same basis as the last Scottish referendum and also the 1975 one. 1 vote per person. There must not be any tail wagging.
If the UK as a whole votes to leave then I do believe Scotland should be given the option of a Referendum but it would need to take into account that as a member of the EU, with open borders, they would need to bear the cost of implementing Border Controls and security on their border with rUK. It should also require that Scotland bears the true support costs for those banks based in Scotland and underwritten by the UK Taxpayer, not 7% of the burden as Alex Salmond said.
The Scotland position on an EU referendum makes it quite interesting
Nicola Sturgeon has made it quite clear that if Scotland is taken out of the EU against its will, that is cause to trigger another Scottish referendum. To determine if Scotland is being dragged out of the EU “against its will” means that the results of the UK (EU) referendum needs to be broken down into Scotland and the Rest of UK, and if an overall majority want out but a Scottish majority want in, then that indicates that Scotland is being “dragged out against its will”
What if the overall vote is very close to stay in but the Rest of UK element is an “out” vote, can Rest of UK claim it is being held within the EU against its will due to Scotland?
This is up to the Brits and no-one else. Unfortunately, I might add. Personally I hope Cameron sticks to his word- the referendum is a mere formality. It’s going to be LEAVE, that much at least is certain.
I fear though that while playing his ‘I reform Europe’ game he’s going to cook up some totally minor compromise on wording somewhere in an second rate subcontract, then blow that up into a magnificent reform. Which HE managed to foist onto Europe. Then he’ll boast around and go ‘look guys, I forced the continental dimwits to jump to our whistle, so we might as well stay in now’ and recommend a REMAIN.
Not good. So, yes!
Since the UK is a very special country obviously. In a number of realms which are somewhat hard to define or even see for non-Brits. In a very lofty way it just doesn’t belong into the circle of the other 27 mediocracities. Granted, neither its current economical nor social nor scientific merits -nor any metrics, as a matter of fact- nor its general placement within the structure of small, medium and large powers and economies would suggest that. It must be something else. Per capita, its net contribution is even less than average! Well behind Germany and France, and way behind the smaller nations. Funnily enough the Brits still manage to uphold this idea that they’re milked most while being screwed over the worst.
Alright, guys, time build some big ores and start paddling.
The UK is the 2nd largest Net Contributor to the EU and does not enjoy the hidden rebates that otehrs such a France enjoy via CAP.
In “Absolute Terms” the UK is always one of the top 4 net contibutors, so well above average.
The UK runs a 79% Trade Deficit with the EU.
The UK is one of the highest density per km of any EU member and the largest of all of the major countries.
Since 1997 5,700,000 EU citizens have moved to the UK in comparision 1,800,000 have move to EU countries. They are not noted for sending their income back to the UK unlike many migrants to the UK.
O’h and Germany has been breaching the EU’s rules for 5 years, driving other EU Member States into recession and usingtheir influence to maintain a high Euro rate to their advantage, not to that of any other member state (this is US Treasury analysis). Despite breaching the rules Germany has not been fined.
I take it, Blugalf the Wise, you are the Cornish Nationalist!
Yes all countries should, leave only Germany alone.
>The UK is the 2nd largest Net Contributor to the EU and does not
enjoy the hidden rebates that otehrs such a France enjoy via CAP.
In “Absolute Terms” the UK is always one of the top 4 net
contibutors, so well above average.
The absolute numbers mean precisely jack squat in this
context. UK has the 2nd largest population after Germany among
the net contributors. I.e. it has more people than France. To
illustrate this issue more plainly, the average Dane pays about
twice as much into the EU than the average Brit. The average
French pays about 150% that of the average Brit. The average
German pays about 130% that of the average Brit.
Hidden rebates? It’s called ‘net contribution’ for a reason.
>The UK runs a 79% Trade Deficit with the EU.
Where to start? Firstly, that number may well have come from
someone’s rear. The UK trade deficit typically floats around 5%
with *both EU and non-EU trading partners*. Or in other words,
the UK has an equally large deficit with all blocs it trades
with. Not that this is much of an issue in economic terms. FYI, a
~~80% trade deficit is usually a privilege of extremely
underdeveloped banana republics. The kind we don’t want in the
EU. Arrange that into context in any way you like.
Secondly, whose fault -if such a term makes sense- is that trade
deficit, exactly? The EU’s? Does the EU now also dictate trade
deficits directly? Or the UK’s economic structure and prowess,
for that matter?
>The UK is one of the highest density per km of any EU member and
the largest of all of the major countries.
It’s ever so slightly higher than Germany’s. And that signifies
what, exactly? BE and NL have much higher population densities,
and they would probably object to being put into some “non-major”
category here. They have exactly the same or rather, even worse
issues associated with density stress and population influx.
>Since 1997 5,700,000 EU citizens have moved to the UK in
comparision 1,800,000 have move to EU countries. They are not
noted for sending their income back to the UK unlike many
migrants to the UK.
What’s the net tax income generated by those immigrants within
the uk? Do you happen to have any sources -or any kind of hard
information, for that matter- on that, or do these people
generally default to be benefit recipients in your view? How does
that figure compare with non-EU immigration? How does it compare
with the influx other EU countries see?
>O’h and Germany has been breaching the EU’s rules for 5 years,
driving other EU Member States into recession and usingtheir
influence to maintain a high Euro rate to their advantage, not to
that of any other member state (this is US Treasury
analysis). Despite breaching the rules Germany has not been
fined.
Right, the “US treasury” would put up anything like that as
analyis anytime. What rules? The SGP criteria? How is Germany in
breach here any more than another big economy, say, the UK? Has
the UK been fined? If anything, Germany has made more efforts
than towards convergence than France and the UK.
Well I guess that puts Danny Boy and Blugalf Broadsword in a right buggersmuddle. Beyond disentanglement. Still I am glad we got sorted out,
@Blog of
All countries enjoy your so called hidden rebates, which are nit hidden but are given to every country in the form of subsidies so long as they apply for it and suit the terms of the subsidy.
Every country’s contribution is based on percentages of their total revenue and population so its in proportion. You can never expect a smaller less populated country to contribute as much. So net contribution means nothing, everything needs to be put in context.
If the UK had such a high trade deficit with the EU I’m surprised you haven’t left already!
Yes maybe a lot of Europeans come and live here, but in those numbers are the people that leave also considered? if you knew anything about European immigrants you’d know that A lot either come with a job offer, to study In which case they some sort of taxes and don’t get that many benefits, the rest come looking for jobs and don’t take long to become tax paying citizens. Don’t bother giving me the “yeah you steal jobs that could go to British” crap. No one steals jobs jobs just get given to other people. Would you man the corner store next to your house? Probably not so we need everyone, as most British wouldn’t do some of the jobs that get given to foreigners. I don’t know numbers but one thing for sure they are not the burden on NIS everyone wants to believe.
The influx of EU immigrants is high for all the wealthiest countries in the EU, and I until we achieve greater equality among member states in minimum income, taxes and so on that influx will go on happening.
Blugaf, Where do I start with you
Absolute means everything. As Disraeli said “There are Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics” Absolute removes these statistical plays such as per capita.
Glad to see you do not attempt to deny the hidden rebates that countries such as France get. Everyone goes on about the rebate that the UK gets but your pro-EU bunch ignore the benefits others get back.
One up to date source for you http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32231055 You can also try ONS and do the calculations for yourself.
Net contribution of EU migrants. Well if you believe the EU paid for CReAM report which so many idiots do then you would say they have made a positive contribution. This is the report that was published in 2013 and debunked for serious errors, re-published in 2015 and debunked for even more errors. House of Lord’s and House of Commons Economic Specialist (you can look up their reports online) estimate that between 1997-2013 (the data period for CReAM) that EU migrants have had a balanced or negative impact.
Yes I refer to the Stability and Growth Pact, which does not apply to the UK as we are not in the Euro. Germany has breached this for the last 5 years running at a 6-7% breach. Every year they say they will take action, every year they do not. This is because the German economy is solely geared towards export not for domestic consumption.
But I could have chosen State Aid, Emissions etc. There are many examples.
German efforts for convergence tend to be for Germany’s gain, but a pro-EU person like you probably would deny this
@Danny Young: Heavens… absolute means zilch, zero, nada here. Again: in this context. Statistical plays? Uh huh. Breakdown per captia is absolutely essential when you’re talking about these things.
It’s as trivial as it is obvious that the UK is a large net contributor. That’s because it has the second largest population amongst the members which pay a net contribution. Net contribution is mostly a function of population size and some economic performance criteria – which, btw, happen to bring the UK toward the lower end of positive contribution per head here.
Absolute contribution says nothing whatsoever about how much the EU costs or benefits each of us in terms of direct balance. But that is a very important measure, one in which the UK is a very average country and in which the brits by no means are milked unduly – the latter claim being a major Looney Tunes storyline of the ‘EUSSR’ type and similar dimwits.
And for heaven’s sake, let’s look at some absolute figures already. I can’t be bothered to dig up the latest data, but this will do. What matters here is the right corridor of magnitude, and that doesn’t change all that much over time. 2009 budget data: budget, ie summed contribution by all members ~~€100bn. Net contribution by the UK, ~~€3.8bn (or, and read this carefully, a quarter of one percent of the UK GDP). Lets be generous and round that up to €5bn. So after UK leaves, EU expenditure to the remaining countries goes down by €5bn or around 5% … given that the EU budget was recently cut by what, 3% or something even without anyone’s exit, I’d say that’s less than a dramatic loss.
I do in fact deny the hidden rebates – thank you very much.
Trade deficit is meaningful as a percentage of GDP, and only as such. But hang on, thats statistical tricks, right? Thought so. Rest assured though, in real life a trade deficit really is compared to the total economic output in order to arrive at any sort of meaningful indicator. One can start to worry and complain once it goes beyond something like 10% of GDP.
Not sure what you did juggling the UK trade office data to present an evil looking figure. But then again you’re trying to come up with numbers and indicators with the potential of hurting the EU really, really badly once their poor tormented dairy cow UK finally rises in indignation and moos ‘enough! I’m out!’. – UK imports from the EU per month ~~UKP 20bn UK exports to EU per month ~~UKP 12.5bn trade gap ~~UKP 7bn. Total EU GDP ~~€1000bn per month.
What’s also funny is that you uk’s-too-good-to-be-in people usually claim that trade couldn’t possibly be affected. If that were so, what reason is there to think that anything would change in trade balance after the Brexit?
Are you also aware of the fact that the UK has a negative trade balance with the RoW? What about also leaving the RoW for the ultimate last laugh? I, for one, have begun to see the potential benefits of such an exit quite a while ago, as small as they might be. Doors, and lower backs, and safety tips come to mind.
Immigration, sure sure, if you don’t like the line of reasoning it’s all biased bogus. I’m not going to descend to your level here and flat out call you an idiot in return, although it sure seems indicated. Anywhere between zero and -97bn eh? Jesus fúçkïng Christ, I wish they hadnt narrowed it down THAT much.
Criteria breach, for goodness sake try and keep the terms straight. The SGP is an agreement between ALL members. The commission can, and has done so, open a deficit case against the UK. At least when it comes to budget deficit and total debt / GDP ratio, and even if it won’t incur automatic sanctions. As near as I can make it out, your German ‘breach’ is Germany’s chronic export surplus – none of the actual SGP criteria. While some deem this surplus to be unduly harmful to other countries – which is debatable to say the least – it’s not a SGP criterion which Germany is required to adhere to or can be sanctioned for ‘breaching’. Occasionally the Germans need to be whacked with a fish for a number of things, but that’s not one of them.
No, Britain is a strong European nation and we need everyone in the EU. There is power in unity!!!
@Gvasco: my reply ended up in the wrong thread and the way I quoted the other post was, well let’s say sub-optimal. I basically agree with everything you said re rebates etc.
Btw re the other comment and similar contributions here, it never ceases to amaze me how stubbornly and stringently people can uphold a certain ideological view on things, remaining completely untroubled by what should be simple facts and common sense.
Darn it, this system sucks.Wrong thread again.
@Fintail
you remember the good old days too ;j) ?
NO!
Yes, but give us Scotland! :D
We all should leave the european titanic!
What are the benefits of UK staying in the European trap.?Is it true Britain is the major contribution towards the cost of European union? Why wouldn’t they fight teeth and nail for UK to start in unprofitable marriage? I have no bad feeling against the European union, not all. What UK Government and people needs to know, is that, her economy, needs to have full access to trade with some of the world biggest economics, like China and Africa. Most of the European countries economy are not profitable for growth
No. It would be a spectacularly self-defeating move. And nobody has the time to go through the whole process of having them come crawling back yet again just because their domestic politics is basically a kindergarden.
How would it be self-defeating? Explain
U.K. should and will stay in Europe! But EU officials should listen and change some of their policy of burocracy and dictating..
They dictate in the same way the UK parliament dictates over the UK or do you have a direct impact over policy making in the UK? As I am aware you elect Politicians to the parliament who you trust will make the right decisions according to your opinions when it comes to policy making and voting. The same happens in the European parliament it’s just that the parliament will be composed of numerous people elected by the different European countries who the form alliances to make and pass those policies.
Apart from the fact that no-one in the UK could vote for what was the winning party in the EU parliament (even if they wanted to) or the fact that no-one in the UK voted for Juncker to be president or the fact that no-one in the EU wants vast amounts of their money wasted by the parliament changing locations from Brussels and Strasbourg…….apart from all that…. I suppose its a typical EU democracy
?ll countries should leave.
nice !!!
its up for Britain to decide wats good for them
.
A poll ?, seriously lol
That is for the British to decide.
As a Dutchman i would say yes. Stop kidnapping the development of Europe. Stop nagging and complaining about everything Europe does to you, take your own responsibility. Close the borders, let the financial centre move to Frankfurt (the Germans show to be thrust worthy these days…) Go back to the 50’s, start waring bowlers again, continue increasing the gap between the poor and the rich and become happy with it. On the other hand… I really love Britain and it would be a loss to see you go.
Don’t worry Adri you can still come for a visit. Despite what you may have heard there are some decent coffee houses here!
There is no way that the financial centre would move to Frankfurt not with all of the EU’s stupid proposals to tax that sector.
As for Germans being trusty are you aware that for the last 5 years they have been the biggest breachers of EMU rules and in so doing so have impacted negatively on the trading ability of other member states?
Also what is the development of Europe that you are happy with? Is it a single Political and Economic State rules from Brussels and Frankfurt. After 2 world wars do you really think that we should give domination of Europe to Germany?
Danny if you read some of the European newspapers you wouldn’t ask those questions. Whenever the UK is mentioned it is always about some petty quibble that is hardly ever mentioned in the UK press. They often cite UK press headlines as an example of the nonsense we are being fed. All the continental countries have their own moans about Brussels but mostly it is more considered and usually accurate. That would be a nice change instead of a lot of the swivel-eyed political gaff that comprises most of these posts. (present company excepted)
Oh yes I forget to mention the Dutch sense of humour is very dry. Adri’s tongue was very much in his cheek
Fintail, I do and I would :)
Are they in Europe?? England unfollow the EU rulles
The UK has a record for enacting EU Regulations more in line with the regulation than many other countries. Then let’s consider Germany a country in massive breach of EU Rules to the extent that they affect other EU members and yet they get away with it without fines?
So does that mean that Germany is not in Europe?
We should invade England.
Didn’t you try that twice in the last century and then need the UK and it’s allies to come to your rescue?
Yes! Europeans don’t want britain in the EU
No
No.
EU ghaqda merkantili li qieghda tmut bil mod hemm bzonn li ahna nohorgu ghax invaduti minn kullhadd ………….spiccajna diga anke nies mill italja bulgarijja spanja u romania kollha hawn iridu jigu………….qeghdin sew………………….il kbar jigu hawn u ahna taf kif ser nispiccaw…………………barranin fartna
Nicho I think you make a good point.,,,,,Just wish I knew what it was :-(
Nico
I nikseb il-punt tiegħek iżda jeħtieġ li tkun ħafna iktar ċar jekk kelliema mhux Maltin huma li tifhem int.
Forsi inti tista ‘tikteb mill-ġdid bl-Ingliż?
Nico
I think I get your point but it needs to be much clearer if non-Maltese speakers are to understand you.
Perhaps you could write it again in English?
yes they should
No if it is a net contributor to eu
Should EU leave Britain?
If the people wants, so they shall.
Yes please leave the EU.
Yes
NO
We should leave the eu get are freedom back and goven are selfs men have died for this in world wars lets not forget.
Of course not… England is a pillar from Europe… They made a big step stay out of ?! Now is the moment to England show the Germans that England is always in top of Europe !!
Yes for sure, and get in Russia
This is just for poll…that’s all…my opinion .
No, just reform it and make the politicians work for thier money.
No, that isn’t good for Britain and for Europe/EU in my opinion!
Yes for sure
Yes , the sooner the better.
Yes. UK has been against the union of Europe since the begging. I hope they leave us and keep friendship. They could be like Norway, Switzerland and Iceland: frinds but no members of EU. It’s also true that there is no mechanisim to leave the EU, but it wasn’t for the Greenland’s referendum in 1985 or the annexation of East Germany in 1990… and EU found the way so… Why not now? Goodbye brithish friends!
Article 50 is the mechanism
UK should really have that referendum regarding UK`s exit from EU.
I will put things into perspective for them and it will force British politicians to defend EU thus ending the debate over EU membership in UK, at least for a while.
Yeah
There’s many no referred things that EU did it. As I remember all Cyprus joined. How the north part that isn’t recognized could be out? Well, EU found the way. It’s the same with lots of european territories that are out of the EU laws: Jersey, Gibraltar, Man… How is possible the caribean Saint Martin island, which belong half to Netherlands and half to France, you need a passport to cross? So, you will find the way! I’m pretty sure.
They never abbandoned the British Pound !
They never abbandoned the British Pound !
England. Not Britain.
Let them go for ever for God sake!
Let them go for ever for God sake!
E.U. doesn’t need England instead they do need us. The same thing goes for Germany…
Why do we need political and economic control from the EU?
It’s up to them!
If they want to stay then I’ll want more commitment and if not, best of luck and keep up the good work and all the rest.
Who the f$# knows whats going on, I dont even think the monkeys in Bruseels or London even know themselves anymore, the EU in its current form (US vassal block/oligarchy) is doomed to fail, unless is drastically changed and overhauled, till then the UK should ditch it, unless that is the EU becomes a body for EUROPE by EUROPE and not some Wall Street slave camp.
Yes
Yes
NO! Within a few months there will be trade tariffs springing up. The UK is an integral part of Europe, get used to it!
The EU operates a 79% Trade Surplus with the UK so any trade tariffs would harm them more than the UK. I appreciate EU politicians can be stupid but not even they, especially as Germany would really suffer, are that stupid.
If it was up to me, then no, they shouldn’t. But it’s really up to them, and it’s probably for the better that they will have their referendum on the issue. However, in case of a Brexit, I doubt the Scots will let things go so easy. ;)
No. Of course not. We love GB. We d like to visit without visa. EU can t be EU without its most pwerful states.
Englisg is written with capital E.
English.
All names have capitals first in English.
Please leave out the anoying topic of conflict between British and Germans. You re related. And both great nations and admirable democracies.
We wish we were British or Germans. Stay in EU.
NO ONE will ever challenge the position of UK as a top economical and financial power.
No ! No ! Non !….Nein !….
yes, they should do so the sooner the better. There is no need for a burden to the further European integration
Britain should take a final decision, valid forever in the future, to stay IN or OUT. With convinction. Just this. If you decide to stay in, you have to accept all the package, not just what you like. Stop special opt-outs, stop any kind of advantages for UK compared to the other member states. You can’t enjoy the advantage to be in the EU and in the common market without accepting the same rules that the other states share. No possibility has to be given to choose which rules you like and which you don’t like… i.e. the freedom of circulation is a pillar of the EU, not only for capitals but for people too.
Davide, you have it exactly.
The UK needs to decide whether to:
Leave and makes its own destiny; or
Stay and become a Full and Active Member. This includes accepting the growing sovereignty of Brussels, relinquishing the £ in favour of the Euro and becoming part of a Republic with the loss of its Royal Family.
None of this would happen straight away but that would have to be the commitment. Unfortunately the UK will never be asked to decide in that way, they will be asked OUT or STAY IN with a renegotiation
Davide
Most of what other countries see as UK “advantages” are just the UK trying to get a fairer deal. The UK came late into the EEC by which time Germany, France and Italy had already written the rules, mostly in their favor. The UK was begrudgingly let in for the money we were going to provide to the budget, and we have been getting screwed ever since
The UK rebate is often spouted as a perk for the UK. No it isn’t, it is because CAP still takes 40% of the budget but only benefits 3% of the people with very little going to the UK, is that a fair deal for the UK as the 3rd highest contributor? (It is also conveniently forgotten by most that Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands and Denmark also get rebates, admittedly smaller than the UK)
Other opt outs are because of a clear political divide between the EU and UK, Whether people like it or not the UK just democratically voted in a Conservative Right wing government, so why should the people of the UK be subjected to Socialist legislation from a Left leaning EU bureaucracy?
Agreed, we accept the rules for the common market and I think you will find the UK abides to most trade related rules (more than some other EU countries certainly) but back door Socialism isn’t democracy
Who cares? Scotland will join the EU. The world is bigger than the UK.
No. Dear British voters, the EU Court is the only way to avoid abuses from your government, if they happen; ultimately you pay the fine but at least they stop. I understand you may resent subventioning French and Spanish agriculture, but the way to go could be selling us products and having profits, like Germany does; plus recovering your industry would make your people in the north happy again. And for the whole EU; either protection from unfair trade or this is only a social club.
The EU Court is nothing of the kind.
The EU isn’t needed for trade, leaving the EU has zero effect on trade volume, in fact it might even increase it as you are no longer burdened by nonsensical EU rules. EU countries since 2002 have seen lower trade ‘growth’ than the rest of the world, therefore the EU is proven to be detrimental to trade. The EU is not a free trade zone but a customs union that routinely discriminates against Africans (amongst other things).
Lidia Estn Arias
?, we had ‘our rights’ as Brit’s while Europeans were still butchering each other & your court is just another tool of forced integration.
We do not need the EU and will be leaving it shortly, you would be better off worrying about France leaving.
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/elections/following-cameron-marine-le-pen-pledges-eu-exit-referendum-313229
Oui, ras le bol du UK qui empche toute avance politique en Europe. L’heure de vrit approche pour les anglais : font-ils partie du club UE ou non ? S’ils disent non et bien l’cosse proclamera son indpendance et rejoindra La zone euro, la donne sera ainsi clarifie. Je respecte le choix des suisses ou des norvgiens d’tre en dehors de l’UE comme je respecterais celui des anglais ou des gallois. Mais ce qui n’est plus acceptable c’est cette politique du “un pied dedans, un pied dehors”. Aux anglais de dire dmocratiquement en 2016 ou 2017 si Charles de Gaulle avait raison ou tord :-)
Nations and sovereign states have the right to decide what to do with their future. Leave the EU is as rightful for them as it is to leave the UK for Scotland. It’s not the solution though. It’s just one of the consequences of the horrible way the fat cats of Europe have been managing the union. Austerity policies and excess of nationalism are to blame.
If the EU does not agree to reforms like no free movement of labour to the UK ,the reinstatement of British fishing rights in British waters and tearing up of the Lisbon treaty which introduced us to federalism then we would be better off out . We are not European we are Britons , we are not a star on somebody’s flag , we never voted for it ,we don’t want it .
No!! Pls don’t !!!
It would awful for EU and quite bad for UK. It gives biz-friendly examples being sometimes the only reasonable voice around. All the I numerous exports UK to EU need red-tapes as much as you need
Sand in your flour. I’m against!
NO , Britain is one of the most important EU countries . Britain is very good for EU development . Really bad if Britain decide to exit EU .
Maybe French people don t like UK in the EU or they don t care. But I Do, I am Romanian , love UK, speak their language, learned their history, and I Would love to visit freely that country without a visa. Which I may not get, being Romanian, …low class european. Let us be united, at least theoretically, because we know we re not equal, but at least we can travel if we afford it.
Every man (or woman) is born equal . The problem is not the people but the living standards created by governments and the company’s which thrive on your low wage demands .The wages may seem high to you but they not so attractive to us .Mass immigration to the UK has seen wage compression and stresses put on social services . Youth unemployment is also a problem in that the low paid jobs were the ones that school leavers used to do as they moved from education to the workplace . Sorry Eugenia mass immigration has caused many problems that we can do without . For you I would suggest you learn a skill that we require . You would then be given a visa ,receive a wage that we don’t have to subsidise through in work benefits and you can enjoy your life in the UK , as equals .
There is no reason for any kind of political union anywhere in Europe. We don’t need hordes of Eastern Europeans coming here to undercut us and driving down wages for us. Stay away.
Let’s go to know what they think about Union European!
Let’s go to know what they think about Union European!
Yes or Not, that Democracy, the citizen must deside, but what if in the future they ask get back into Europe?
Yes or Not, that Democracy, the citizen must deside, but what if in the future they ask get back into Europe?
Probably the UK will leave and it might be the start for the end of the EU as a whole. A pitty, the EU countries will become insignificant nations, including the UK, in the context of greater blocks such as the BRICS and the US.
independent Scotland to join EU, England will need to have visas and passport to travel, and customs to deal with for business.
Scotland only last year voted to remain part of the United Kingdoms though they do seem keen on the EU for some strange reason . We would cross that bridge when we come to it .
As far as passports and customs go that would apply both ways as it does at present ,the UK is not signed up to Schengen
If Scots want to pay for Greek debts, let them.
You are operating on the myth that being in the EU is better than not being, and that is a false myth. Better off out. Let’s see if you can get France to cover for the loss of Britain’s net contribution, good luck with that.
Some in Scotland want their Independence from the Union but not the purse strings. Did you not hear Swinney last week “We want full fiscal autonomy but want to keep the money from the Barnett Formula”
If the referendum delivers a ‘yes’ then it will be crucial in which manner the UK is going to withdraw from its EU membership. It will be a first and the effects this might have on the remaining EU and on Britain are unknown. Will France and Britain for instance still form strategic alliances such as they did when they intervened in Libya?
Will they secure a trade agreement with the EU and stay in the ‘Common Market’ or will Britain severely alienate Germany and badly strain her relationship with the latter?
It’s not designed to make friends on the continent and the British people may well end up to pay a heavy price exotically for its political elites misguided splendid isolationism.
You Germans still miffed about Britain’s “isolationism” during 1940-1941? Good things the Brits didn’t cave to German demands of “European solidarity”.
Eberhard, Germany runs a Trade Surplus with the UK as does the rest of the EU so any price would be harder on yourselves. And why should you highlight Germany, in a club of equals their opinion should not matter or are you conceding that Germany rules the EU?
No!! Should stay! look here in brazil we have mercosul….
Okay.leave it.youre full with indian and pakistani emigrants anyway
Dimitar, Those people are from theand tend to come over with skills the UK needs unlike many EU immigrants. They also tends to be of different races, religions and colours to EU immigrants. You see we welcome diversity but do not want to be flooded with poorly skilled, non-english speaking white christian caucasians which is what the EU seems full of.
Dear Dimitar… what the heck are you talking about? I hope you’re joking! But even so, it’ isn’t funny! It’s revolting!
Thank you for your post Nikolaos . The UK has always welcomed people from around the World to join us as citizens of the UK . Indeed at times we have encouraged it . The problem with the EU is that we lost control of our borders and the mass unrestricted immigration from Eastern Europe that followed meant we have had to put restrictions on people from other parts of the World that we traditionally welcomed . EU free movement has not worked well for the British people ,we need to take control of our borders and have a visa system of immigration for the people with the skills where we have shortages .
No!
Britain should leave the criminal EU. And here is a proof that it is criminal!
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/world_news/Europe/article1554222.ece
The idea in the UK is, if the public vote to pull out of Europe, then we will take the identical stance to Switzerland, Norway, etc. Which of course the general public do not realise has to dance to the same open door right to free movement anyway. However, those in high places feel it is a waste of billions of tax payers money as it presently does not appear to advance our freedom of choice. It will also eventually do away with the need for our government departments and those that benefit from being there. Plus, the citizens of our country have no political sway in Europe as it is seen as undemocratic and they are tired of the PC nonsense they believe stems from Europe as that is what they are told.
And, Dimitar Petkov, we are full with more than Indian and Pakistanis, we are full of the world and every one of its continents people, including Europeans. Here is a little update on our immigrant population.Any more than what we have is going to create real problems for us if it isn’t stopped.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/latest-immigration-statistics
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=where+are+all+the+UK+immigrants+coming+from&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=jplRVcb2KcvTUYbngfgG&ved=0CD8QsAQ&biw=1920&bih=969
And now we are going to do away with the, Human Rights Act. Which, they tell us will reduce the immigration rights of murderers and criminals to remain in our country.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/10/conservatives-to-push-forward-on-manifesto-and-scrap-human-rights-act
No!
Bye bye brits. Sick and tired of Cameron’s blackmailing attempts and total lack of solidarity and european spirit. The people vote him again, so if that is what they want. Bye bye!
They’ll be better off and the EU would be worse off. Can we (Netherlands) leafve the undemocratic EU and its Franco-German diktats too?
No. Britain should learn that a union in order to be strong and long lasting has to pass through bad times also, not only good times. It’s called solidarity ! If you abandon when times are bad and come back again when everything it’s better, thanks to the hard work of everybody else except you, than that doesn’t make you worthy of being part of the European Union.
Yes, without a doubt! No questions, no regrets!
It is of course up to the British people to decide. However, should the UK leave EU it would shake the foundation of not only the EU but the UK itself. One example: International trade would suffer badly. In March, import for the UK from the EU was ~ 20bn. Export was conciderably lower, about 12bn. If the UK were to leave the union, how would this affect the British trade? Would leaving the Union help or hurt the UK?
Leaving the EU is unlikely to negatively affect trade as the EU and Germany will still want to sell their goods to us. However we may get a bounce as companies wishing to trade with the EU but not bound by all of their red tape, set up shop in the UK the nearest trading partner to the EU
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/vidar-helgesen-our-eea-contribution-costs-almost-much-eu-membership-314369
Yes….leave
As a Greek I have been experiencing a bad undemocratic face of the EU today. The EU today is only a tool which serves 100% German interests more accurately German and French bankers interests, not their citizens interests.. In Germany people have already started suffering from austerity measures and negative interests in their bank accounts.. Britain is still a relatively free country because it has its own currency..and I thank all of its ex and current leaders who have assisted on that.. You will have to just look what is happening to greece to see the real face of the EU today.. I cannot tell whether Britain should leave the EU or not but what I can say is that Britain MUST CONTINUE BEING AN INDEPENDENT country .. If this means that has to leave the EU, then I vote yes..
Why do you keep asking the same question over and over again? It’s not going to leave Europe and it’s for the better because it’s going to lose investors and trade deals.
Why would we lose investors and trade deals?
People still think you can get out of the EU. Think again, Britain is ruled by american banking cartels and we all know what the yanks want. Cameron works for the cartels and he will tell you the moons made of green cheese if told to do so.
Referendum , ok great , the exit side will loose, its just going to happen that way, its predetermined. Democracy is as good as dead people ..
It boils down to this , the UK wont be allowed to leave, period! The referendum is a smoke screen.
I will also bet that all the showboating with greece will end up with greece getting another bailout. The new greek govt has been spanked and will conform..They are not allowed to leave!!
No country in the eu is allowed to leave, referendum or not..the yanks wont allow it..
I agree in the main with, Klassen. The Lisbon Treaty that the UK signed does not have an out permit. But, our politicians including, Nigel Farage, does not tell them that.
It does have a clause that if the treaty is changed or altered from the original sign up in some way, then a referendum can be held with permission. However, as Klassen suggests, the out vote will not be accepted. And the US would indeed be very, very miffed. They want this trade agreement to include the planet not just Europe. They want to have complete financial control.
Cameron’s manifesto which I will put a link to promises the UK will become closer to the US. Although, how much closer they can get is debateable as they are already up their jacksy.
Additionally, what the Conservatives did not tell the public prior to or since the election is, that all British citizens, which includes nationalised people, if they leave the UK to live in another country, will be able, for the rest of their lives, to vote in our national general elections. So, all those people who voted believing the Tory’s to be for the nationals of our country, were duped. They are Globalists and Globalism means US rule.
https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto
What is Globalisation? Now this US Professor is somewhat spelling it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5gevSY4Gpw
The Referendum may be a smoke screen but it will be worth it just to see the UK and EU politicians faces the morning after an out vote
Unfortunately I do not believe it will be a vote for out, campaigning will be even more biased than 1975 with the “stay in” brigades propaganda machine backed up by billions in EU and US funds……failing that it will fall to simple corruption and vote rigging to deliver what the political elite want to see
Try reading article 50 of the Lisbon treaty which sets out the leaving process
Well that settles it. thanks for the info Klassen. I am off to seek asylum in North Korea. at least they don’t speak with forked tongues!!!
UK does not need Europe European choice Ukraine. The opposite holds. Britain is an international hub offering stability to investors. It has to remain like that. Yours and my country are suffering because they joined the EU. The EU today has been transformed from a free trade European Union which we all liked to something else very undemocratic.
No, for goodness sake. What possible advantage do they think they can have by just being a trade partner? The way things are now, they have a ridiculous amount of control over the goins on inside their biggest export market. C’mon, brits: ANY cooperation is better than NO cooperation.
The EU is undemocratic. That alone is a reason to leave. People who love democracy do NOT want an unelected Politburo composed of foreign politicians to lord over your own national politicians.
The EU can be abolished and nearly everyone (except the rich) would be better off.
Er we take back our territorial waters and fishing rights in our own waters , we can make our own trade deals with the global markets and take back our seat in the WTO (which actually makes most of the rules on international trade ) and we save the £50M + we hand over every day . Not to mention being able control our borders and make laws without having to get permission from the EU . What possible advantage indeed
This is to help Fintail out and to support Klassen on his view regarding the Lisbon Treaty and article 50. It is a short cut of course, but, it gives a hint about the reality of of what we are into.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/withrawal-of-the-uk-from-the-eu-using-article-50-of-the-lisbon-treaty-by-1st-nov-2014
They knew that Germans want to be leader that’s why they stay out from eurozone …. Now they see that Germans kills other countries and maybe they will stay out from eu to save the country from foreigns !!!!
All countries must look the own good …. Not Germany’s !!!!
Yes, there is no real future for the EU
Britain waged 2 World Wars to save Europe from German domination. And they will soon be ready for another one.
Yes! Let’s leave better!
No we shouldnt ….. our human rights are at risk if cameron gets his way
How are our human rights at risk?
Danny, Don’t wind Simon up like that you can see he is only a baby!!
Sorry Fintail I’ll give him his dummy back :)
No
NO!
When will EU work on a mutual Vision? When money is the only driving force EU never will be able to become solidaric. EU needs a welfare Vision first, then the harmonisation of tax, and social Systems must grow together. What you did was only to open the borders, without any management of different states. http://www.WWSEEP.com . We need EU-wide min. Standards for welfare.
EU exploits each state against each other. This is unfair. Work onthe mutual Vision, then open the borders. Your strategy only for Lobbies is wrong. We need a Partner’s, and cooperative leading style. http://www.WWSEEP.com .
Christ Erich that website has to be the most poorly designed and incomprehensible scam on the internet!!
No way!
No.
The real question is: shall Wales, Scotland and North Ireland access the European Union?
LOL true.
How dare the voters not vote for a government approved by the Commission. There should be an immediate investigation into this travesty!
As for leaving the EU, if Britain wants to be better off it should leave pronto. It would regain its net contribution, regain its fishing waters, regain self-representation at the WTO and trade volume wouldn’t be affected at all.
nope
No
If Britain leaves, it will be a lost for Europe.
If they want to . Maybe its better for the EU, as they want be undermining the efforts anymore
Yes,in Britain the economy might be growing,but not the living standards of ordinary people.
https://www.facebook.com/planetbpmfans
i was thinking abaut Labour Party for a governement will but reality is hard and no to acceptation we at Poland love a Labour politicians
:)
Never mind, UK in the end will vote to stay in EU. Money talks louder and Cameroun is going to do a campaign in favour of staying.
No
We are not a full member! The £ IS stronger than the Euro.
We would be withdrawing from the single market. We would reclaim our seat at the WTO, NATO…
Eight Reasons Why the UK Doesn’t Need the EU Single Market:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278491/Bruges_Group_SingleMarketAndWithdrawal.pdf
The EU Commission is anti-democratic, unelected – that the 1st point. The 2nd is: it’s vital that the relationship between the UK electorate and elected is preserved. Laws and policies governed by the accountable elected. The EUC is unelected, unaccountable, yet they want themselves to be the government of the “EU”!
Moreover, referendums are an essential part of our democracy. It is through them that governments can claim legitimacy. This will be what Greek government will do next in order to solve the no-solution situation. The European ‘Commission’ makes laws in secret, as so to speak, and cannot be altered by MEPs, MEPs can only made recommendations for amendments. Laws made by an UnElected executive! YES. Vote YES! Lest we forget.
I completely agree that it is up to the people of UK, believe me the Commission doesn’t care as it doesn’t care for the elections in Greece, my country. You however and your country are key part of European evolution and should not attempt to leave it. It will comsic if you did, no, biblical in proportions, magnitude and reprecrussions. If you do the entire Europe region will be destabilized and will no doubt be the end of EU. And that will mean war because EU was created so the nation-states of Europe would stop fighting one another after 1500 years of constant chaos.
“will be cosmic”
And here is a little example of voting fraud. The people are beginning to expose the truth from the polling stations. Just as they did in Scotland.
I predict a landslide victory for Farage. If the truth is outed. And how South Thanet can do that is, all those people in that constituency should make a place and time for them to turn up in a square or park to be counted. Every single one of them. And if the count is way above the opponent they say won the count, they can insist on a recall. Have the video crews there to counter the bought press and voila, you have it. 20 thousand people is not that many. We have marches with a million or more, so it can be done. Do it for your country.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/576937/fraud-probe-Thanet-south-UKIP-Nigel-Farage
So, if you believe we will have a fair and safe vote on the EU, should they manage to get permission for a referendum through Europe, expect a rigging. LOL
What most people fail to understand its that if the EU breaks up then there will be war between France and Germany and this comes from verified scientific research which predicts such things. EU was not created for the prosperity of the people! That became its purpose afterwards. EU’s first job wasand is to keep Germany under close surveilance so it doesn’t kickstart WWIII. It’s that simple.
Be thankful that the EU is here despite its many, many, many problems that create even poverty and misery. Believe me its better than France nuking Berlin down.
If EU breaks up as a result of so an important member-state (even an opt-out member) leaves it. It will upset the power relations in the Europe region and the superpowers of the periphery (USA, China, Russia) will move, as they did in the past to rectify the situation, either by sending armies to ensure planetary stablity or by splitting the EU’s fresh carcus to parts that will become their spheres of influence.
So goodbye UK, hope you have a nice time contributing all of your taxpayer money to Washington as USA’s 51st state and oh, Greece, why not start speaking Chinese and Russian since you are a small nation of 10 million and will soon be either drowned by illegal immigrants or become a small post-communism protectorate of either Russia or China.
A Brexit, no ANY KIND of -exit is out of the question. The EU Commission mus find a way to stabilize EU and it needs to do it YESTERDAY. IF EU STARTS FALLING APART THE NATION-STATES WILL (AND SHOULD AT THAT POINT) TAKE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS TO SECURE THEIR SURVIVAL. IT IS THEN THAT WAR WILL BREAK UP.
War will break out, sorry, my english!
John, The EU has not kept peace that has been NATO. If you disagree please provide links to the evidence you say exists
I am not arguing with that, of course NATO protects the EU from others and istself, the sheer volume of scientific research on the matter proves that EU is not directly responsible for its mnilitary defense.
What I am saying is that NATO won’t be able to do anything, internaltional law-wise legally speaking, and perhaps actually if the EU collpases and we go back to nation-states. It will be disastrous. Each time nationalism rises in Europe we have war. It’s that simple.
As an addition to my above post on rigged votes and fraud, it appears the Express has pulled its news story, wonder why? So here it is from the Huffington Post. Surely the Express didn’t think it would disappear? LOL I wonder who was breathing down their neck.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/05/13/thanet-south-fraud-nigel-farage-_n_7274172.html
@John Zervas
The EU is in the process of failing:socially, politically, economically – ethically and morally as well. What you have said about conflict and such like is unfounded, and, actually – made up by you.
The EU was founded to ensure stability. It has now out lived its purpose. This is evident.
The EU “Commission” is Un-Democratic, and it is Anti-Democratic by its very structure (Ireland, Greece, Ukraine). There will be a referendum, and there will a OUT – the odds are high in the electorate’s recent vote. The EUC has no democratic legitimacy. The UK Government has a mandate.
The EU Project is German project – let us remember.
Incidentally, UK was never “In” the EU! So this vote, on this page, is mis-phrasing the point. It has a trading agreement, but nothing else. The UnElected would wish the UK to be in, but it simply won’t happen. It will be OUT, the numbers speak for themselves.
If I may please add Editor: significant news – significantly weakens the argument for an economic union for current full EU members: Obama’s plans for trade deals with Asia and Europe in tatters after Senate vote: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/12/obama-trans-pacific-partnership-senate-vote
No, it shouldn’t because it would not be in its best interest.
Yes.
No- Not jet!
Any good reason it should. .?
It’s up to the Brits. Their choice.
Yes, by all means do!
No, and i’m a Brit, majority in UK want to stay in, minority in UK want to leave like any EU country we have a eurosceptic part of population, they are still a minority though, they only have 1 seat in UK government out of 650 so no real power or influence
this debate sounds very much like “fog on the Channel, the Continent is isolated” famous quote.
No. We should engage positively in the EU. If we were out, we’d still have to comply with all the regulations needed to trade freely, but would have absolutely no say in decisions made that affect us. It is a fantasy to think we can manage better outside. Equally the bodies of the EU need to recognise that many citizens all over Europe are unhappy with the way many things have developed, and their concerns should be addressed.
No
no
The fact that UK co-runs the ECB but gets to keep the pound is absolutely telling of which bankers really run Europe, so yes.
Yes.
Yes get out
Yes! Please leave!
No!
I think this is their choice, but they should decide it once and for all; it is so ridiculous they still talk about leaving the Union after all these years and after the way they got in..I mean, come on, make up your damn mind and stick with it, Europe is not a club, nor a party.
No
Agree Roxanne Julie English people should make up their mind, they want to be special, above anyone… Having britain on board makes no difference…
No
No
Britain should LEAD the EU because it defended it many times in the past…instead we have the NAZIS rulling it!
Should they leave for the European migrants?
yes of cors,?
Absolutely NOT, under any circumstances!! It would be an insane abdication if responsibility; what’s more, it would be in pursuit of some arrogant, chauvinistic, insular fantasy. The UK would sink beneath waves, into obscurity. In any case, since the EU bloc is of a meaningful size, internationally, it makes senwe to aim for an eventual devolution of power to Europe’s natural regions, all within a meaningful federation. (You only need look at our pathetic, fragmented response to Russian aggression in Ukraine, to see that.) Being inside the EU, the UK is able to influence decisions that affect it; if outside, it would be buffeted by decisions outside its control. The eurozone, however, is a different matter. It was a totally ill-conceived venture
Those english citizens, who want to leave should leave, but those who want to be european citizens as well should stay. This would be democratic, I think.
Continued… The eurozone benefits only Germany, at the very great expense of the southern peripheral nations. Germany refuses to recognise that ITS economy is the one which is grossly distorting the eurozone, so does nothing to modify policies which are hurting its neighbours’ economies. To make matters infinitely worse, it is forcing failed and totally discredited austerity policies on other countries, which are wrecking their economies. (What happened to the Celtic tiger is a very good illustration.)
Up to the British people.
NO
Britain is extremely important as a European country, but we cannot go on with all those exemptions from obligations and all those exceptions. If they stay, they should stay under the same circumstances the rest of the countries have. I constantly get the idea that they participate in the EU just in order to prevent the further unification of the Union – for instance they don’t allow further redistribution of resources and larger EU-budget and they insist on Turkey’s membership in the EU.
Yes. If they are thinking about it then they should leave.
I think they have to renegotiate with the eu, and then all countries can profit from improvements for all. Eurpe is intervening in too much local stuff and where europe is needed they do not because the countries disagree. It needs to be thoroughly evaluated but not by those that are in the same circle and hope for a job there. Too much waste. It can be made better for all.
If they wish let them make a referendum
Of course! Then the rest of us can get on with developing the EU.
https://youtu.be/lvWi-svoBac
I hope not, but at this point…
i think italy shoud leave eu
UK needs Europe and vice versa. The question is on what terms UK will agree to stay in Europe( the people )….
We all should…!
Yes, it s only a pain and a problem for the Ue: it s much more what it receives from eu than what it gives back. Go away britons and maybe we’ll have more chance to have a leftist europe
EU – will be too small without Britain …
I think they should stay and abide by eu rules as the other members do, but if they want lo leave, let them leave.
Noo!! :( we need our british brothers.
No. Never.
Interesting read. The u.k can certainly leave the e.u and have some undeniably strong reasons to do so. However, the u.k is also undeniably part of Europe. The queen is German, Prince Phillip is Greek and the motto on the three lions is French. Getting back on topic though, if the u.k decides to leave the e.u both parties will be weaker…much weaker, which would play directly into both China’s and Russia’s hands. So if your’re comfortable with the men from the fsb knocking on your door within the next 10 years then sure, leave the e.u.
.
What do you mean ‘should’ ?
We “ARE” leaving the antidemocratic EU, the only question left unanswered is will it be 2016 or 2017.
Can’t wait to see the back of the EU .
Of course quicker the better
ASAP PLEASE.
Either way it doesn’t bother me. Only if the British people chose to stay, there should be a mechanism to prevent their self-serving politicians from initiating such proposals again, causing massive uncertainty.
We should stay, absolutely without doubt.
Economically speaking, 99% of company bosses in a survey wanted to stay. Just think about that. 99 of the people who are actually involved in business and understand international economics far more than most people (including myself!) think we should stay for every ONE person who wants to leave. Given the EU is largely an economic ‘superstate’, that if nothing else is pretty clear evidence it’d be mad to leave.
The issue of the EU is massively, massive misrepresented in the media, because they’ll often write whatever garbage they want, whether it rreflects reality or not, in order to get more sales. If the media were to portray the EU accurately, rather than the incredibly eurosceptic bias it puts in, then far, far fewer people would want to leave. Euroscepticism is only a major thing at the moment because media companies lie through their teeth to us / deliberately only report one side of the story, because it is more controversial and hence sells more.
As for the EU forcing laws down on us and all that, those news reports are just as deceptive. Out of all laws the UK has, only about one in seven even vaguely mention the EU, and in a lot of those it’s only to a very minor extent :)
I desperately hope for the sake of the country that, if / when we get an EU referendum, the truth comes to the fore and with actual unbiased information the choice should become very, very clear to stay in.
Jason, I do not know where you get your figures from but the House of Lords and House of Commons Briefing notes estimate that, including influence due to regulations, 74% of all enacted UK laws result from an EU influence.
You are obviously Pro-EU, as is most of the media. So perhaps you should state what facts you believe in the portrayal of the EU are wrong.
Interesting to see your response
The only bosses that want us to stay in the EU are the bosses that have replaced British workers with cheap Eastern Europeon workers,
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2015/05/08/britain-leave-european-union/ why would 99% of bosses stay when only 7/9% deal with the eu. The EU cost these businesses money even if they don’t deal with them. Fake news get your facts right.
I did my own poll at work before the ref 95% wanted to. Leave the importers were sceptical band in dicided same results after.
Anyone saying it’s a good idea or a bad idea hasn’t got a clue. Nobody knows for certain if it would be a good decision or a bad decision until the decision was made. Nobody has a crystal ball.
yes, let them leave. Our turn to laugh!
.
A point of fact, unless you are British it is none of your concern.
No !!!!
YES !!…so that one day they will regret it :D
Yes
We couldn’t care less. It will be their problem. and the around 4 million British living in the EU and ejoying the local welfare would have to be repatriated as illegal immigrants.
1.4 Million UK citizens live in the EU, most are retired and so bring their pensions to those countries where they have also bought houses. They spend their own money in those countries. They do not get benefits
5.7 EU Citizens live in the UK a significant proportion of which receive IN Work Benefits, Unemployment and free or subsidised housing.
So I guess by your argument the UK is better off out?
‘
Before anyone else threatens a free Great Britain with a trade war remember this.
The lie that Europe is our biggest customer is nothing more than a deliberate manipulation of statistics – a lot of our world wide trade goes via Holland, as you get very good shipping links there. But because that involves goods being moved from the UK, to Holland (even though they only stay there for a few days), some pro-EU commentators use that to bulk up EU trade figures, and make it look like there’s more genuine intra-EU trade than there really is.”
They also fail to mention the 79% Trade Surplus the EU has with the UK.
Everyone should to save billions that are spend on useless bureaucracies.
Yes!
It s better for all europe to live Germany
Of course yes, if it’s the wish of british people!
Yes
Yes ! It was meant to be a common market not a United States of Europe out out out
1. The EU would impose its external tariff on British exports to Europe. This would make very little difference to British companies – most of whose exports go outside Europe anyway. The World Trade Organisation restricts the EU to an external tariff of around 6% so the effect would, in any case, be quite small. (Britain would almost certainly be able to negotiate for itself a smaller tariff – in the way that Switzerland has. This would drive down the cost of leaving the EU still further.)
2. If outside the EU, Britain would, inevitably, be outside the euro. There would be an exchange rate between the pound and the euro. In the long run this could well be to Britain’s advantage.
3. The external tariff on Britain’s imports from outside the EU would disappear. Britain would probably gain more from this than it would lose from the imposition of a tariff on British exports to Europe.
4. A Britain outside the EU would be able to make special trading deals with other countries – such as those in the Commonwealth. This could be hugely advantageous.
5. Europhiles claim that if Britain left the EU then countries from outside Europe (such as Japan and America) would invest less. This is nonsense. Britain attracts more outside investment (known to economists as `Foreign Direct Investment’) than other European countries because its labour market is still relatively unregulated. If it was outside the EU Britain could take advantage of its independence to reduce the number of regulations limiting foreign companies. EU regulations are already regarded as a minefield. Just ask some of the foreign companies who have had eurocrats leaping up and down all over them. Many would jump at the chance to invest in a less regulated part of Europe. The tariffs would be a small price to pay. Finally, even if FDI did fall, Britain would not necessarily lose since in an often irrational attempt to encourage foreign businesses (at the expense of British businesses) the British Government subsidises these investments. A subsidised outside investment may well not make money for the country!
If they want to…
European union… was’ tha’?
Yes get out ! Before its to late love Europe hate the EU
I would love to see the Brits pull out; lets see them try to trade with anyone then? Everbody would be running to cross Hadrian’s Wall and live in the newly independent Scotland!
Hadrian’s Wall, someone needs a geography lesson.
And is this the Scotland that needs Oil prices at $140 + per barrel and wants to have fiscal autonomy but wants the protection of the Barnett Formula.
I think we should all leave the EU. How about a referendum in every country so we can decide?
and join the U.S.?
Absolutely not.
No!!!
Yes definitely out , it’s corrupt to the core !
Unfortunately in the UK media reports have been coming through thick and fast on pointless (and almost always untrue) stories about the EU.
The British sausage will no longer be allowed to be called a sausage, bananas that do not meet the regulated degree of angle cannot be sold, & the list goes on.
All this has left many people ani-EU
No-one eeports the benefits to membership as it doesn’t sell papers
All for the EU and Britain needs to stay in.
So give us the benefits Aldo, what are they?
Nao ficariam isolados…
Yes- Yes- yes.
Yes sooner the better
Winston Churchill knew that the economic union would have its own difficulties – but insisted that the alternative was unthinkable for a modern society @the moment we in UK are suffering rather unfair and corrupt political shenanigans which come directly from London and Westminster in particular. Having lived in the lead nation of Europe and seen the devotion to delivering a fair and just bureaucracy that serves the public and an unbiased justice system free from political fantasmagoria (UK style corruption for convenience) Europe is still a better place to be for all Briton and incomers alike…..long live HM the Queen and the continued involvement in the EU. England would be a third rate place without both.
Oh the nation that we need to model ourselves on…..of course is Gérmany
Yes
Yes ..12 billion a yr we give to eu..build a few schools n hospitals with that for starters
No
Yes. We need to be able to negotiate from a position of power, rather than a position of weakness.
büyük kayıp ;/
Kevin we ‘get in return for our annual membership fee.’ Subsidise from Brues
To the tune of 32 bn ……pounds
Nick,
The UK is a NET CONTRIBUTOR. That means we put in more than we receive back. Those subsidies you talk of are just our money coming back most of which go to projects that have to be fund matched by UK Government.
Bit like you giving me £100, my giving your son £50 and expecting you to also give him £50. You are now down £150
Yes asap
Any country or any region should be free (by referendum) to join or leave de Union or his own country, becoming independent or joining other country.
Yes
Andrew it is unfortunate to note realistically England would never be in a position of power we are such a small ill served nation as a result of being at least 30 years behind the rest of the 1st world nations.
Basis for this unsuppotable statement Nick. Oh and it is the United Kingdom, the 6th largest World Economy.
We can handle ourselves get out Europe will still have to trade with us we are too important to them
Out asp
Depends which “EU” the EU run and controlled by pro US elites in Brussels for the US, or the EU thats trying to run control the EU by Europeans for Europeans, there is not one EU.
Yes
Switzerland and Norway do ok.
All EU does is cost us 20 odd million per day…..We did ok without a EU treaty before we joined it…our economy was fine. All EU has done is take away our trade and cost us stupid amounts. Europe needs us more than we need them. Look, just coz we want to get out of there union dont mean we cant trade and have a great relationship with them like Switzerland do. Our biggest traders are with America. A future with the Commonwealth…. is a brighter future!
@ Wendy:
Our biggest trade is not the USA. It is Europe.
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/2451
Europe in total, not simply ‘Germany.’ The USA is small in comparison. Here you will see the USA trades at 11.8% The rest of Europe, counting all the States as a whole, runs at about 46% to 47%. Therefore, the US is chickenfeed as a market for us next to Europe. And Farage needs a rethink. Or, to come up with proof this is not so.
And as a further little bit of advice to UKIP is this, Carswell is the Tory trojan horse he foolishly fell for in the run up to the election. How to outsmart that lop sided jackass, is to fire him from UKIP and force him to call a byelection. Then, run for his seat against him in Clacton. Put all the UKIP power behind him, remembering the Conservatives and Labour will combine their flood money to keep him out. Big money want him out of the picture because of the trade we have just spoken of should we leave the EU trading block.
Fear not, Clacton is for UKIP and Farage their man. Carswell is exposed for his duplicity and has sold them down the river. If he believes in his power of communication, this will bring him to Westminster and take him out of Europe to fight for the British. Voila. I feel the same as Brian May, the British are being done from inside and its time it was outed.
Catherine Benning,
Your figures are wrong. See below (House of Commons Briefing Statistics 15/10/14)
In 2013, the UK exported £155 billion of goods to other EU member states. This is equivalent to 50.5% of the total. Goods imports from the EU were worth £221 billion (53.1% of the total) in 2013. The UK had a deficit in trade in goods with the EU of £66.4 billion in 2013.1
Goods and services trade
Looking at trade in both goods and service, the EU remains a major trade partner for the UK. The EU’s share of UK exports and imports has, however, fallen over the last decade. In 2013, 45.1% of the UK’s goods and services exports were to other EU countries. This share has fallen from 54.8% in 2002. 50.6% of the UK’s goods and services imports came from other EU countries in 2013, down from 57.5% in 2012.2
No
Yes, and without them we can move towards a federal Europe.
Yes..because they are looking only for economic benefit from the participarion, but in todays world a deeper political integration is needed to survive in the globalized world.
No. The politicians who want to make UK to leave EU are hypocrits just like the bolsevics who use to seek any kind of pretext to atack the free democratic world. Whan you are in a team of democracy you sand for democracy not for plots and slanders.
NO!
Yes the EU is dangerous because the right to be able to vote in and out the people who govern us is more important than the economy – and they can’t even get that right. As a former soviet dissident warns ‘I have seen your future and it doesn’t work’
No
Yes , tomorrow if possible.
Should Britain leave the Eurovision song contest?
Yes to that as well
It’s their decision entirely. However, I hope they won’t be given another piece of “Extrawurst” http://secretagency.de/articles/2003/March2003CarnivalinGermany.pdf
Why do people keep going on about Germany. They are not meant to be the rulers of the EU you know.
the brits will have to work on their languages then. We will stop speaking english with these non european islanders. 😂
No but a reform is necessary and to those saying we get nothing out of it, well if you kept threatening to leave your job do you think they’re gonna give you a promotion? No, exactly. If we actually contributed then we would have more of a voice. The EU has great foundations which we can build from it just needs some reform.
The EU is in a parlous state, due to it’s obsession with enlargement and unworkable economic policies it has reduced the members of the euro to near bankruptcy. It also has allowed itself, because of its egotistical behaviour to drift dangerously close to a confrontation with a resurgent Russia, unfortunately they will take us with them ( and history tells us what happens when you poke the Russian bear with a stick). BREXIT, would, I think, hasten the collapse of a bankrupt unelected organisation.
We should remain with the European Union. It needs reform, no question – it was conceived as a trade union, not a superstate – but we should remain with our European friends. Whose the alternative? America? Russia? China? I’d rather parler with the French, verhandeln with the Germans or trattare with the Italians than roll over and do whatever Putin says
No reforms on the agenda whatever Cameron says Matt . All he’s talking about is our relationship with the EU not reforms within it. The Alternative is standing on our own as an independent trading Nation (there are advantages to that ) But its not just or all about our trade . We would reclaim our National waters and fishing rights ,a rich commodity that Heaths government gave away in haste whilst negotiating our entry to the European community . Our elected government would make ALL our laws , we wouldn’t be subject to green taxes or vat imposed by Brussels .We would of course also be in control of our borders able to restrict the numbers to what we want or need . With the EU on a course of deeper integration our very sovereignty is at stake . Even IF we take a hit on the trade numbers I’ll still be voting out, the alternative is not acceptable
Take the Island and move it over the pond.
Wish we could
england can go ….
We are the United Kingdom, not England
Any country with the exception of Germany will soon realise what a fiasco the EU and Eurozone are! This current EU does not represent anyone else but the banks, the non elected bureaucrats and some political elites!
Is no one taking a longer view ? What do we want Europe to look like, politically and economically in 30 years ?
Britain No, England Yes
Non!
Why would anyone want to be part of a union that forces its mantra on all of its subjects with no redress . They have been steadily increasing their power at the expense of democratically elected governments . Why do the want so much power ?
As fast as possible
No too many people are influenced by US, Australian or UKIP donating media interests. – look at the real facts and you’d understand why the British public need MEP’s and Commisioners that work for the people not politicians that are interested in self interest like UKIP or Conservative members.
What are the real facts.
BTW more media runs pro-EU stories. The EU even has its own News Channel “EuroNews”
No.
No!!!
Definitely no.
Uk should continue bargaining its terms of cohesion. Uk is only one step in, on purpose. I prefer that.
Pull out soon as
Absolutely not!
Scadilous #HillaryClinton #ClintonFoundation Scamming Schemes Dont Vote Democrat 2 May 2015 #TwincVanilaSpilla #foxbusiness #foxnews #democraticparty #megankelly #barackobama #youtube #newmusic2015 #polictics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U3kd7DrWcw
SeanRohan !!!!! Come oon !! Again no:)
Yes! No restrictions free trade control our own borders.
I think the EU should KICK Britain out. And unilaterally hold off Schengen, just to give the British Government a hint of what might happen next.
We are not part of Schengen.
We are always the 2nd largest NET Contributor (after all countries rebates, investments taken into account) .
We also have a 79% Trade Deficit with the EU but remain one of its biggest markets.
So we know what would happen next
No! But Europe must change to keep Britain in the union. United Europe needs Britain not becoming a German colony
I think that we all should, It brought us only disaster. With the deflation they are doing exactly the contrary to what should be done to get out of the crises. They don’t wnat to hear of the Keynesian model, that has prooven to be right , they follow the model of Friedman Milton which in a crises is a suicide for the poor and a great sourse of money making for the rich.
One thing is clear , they don’t represent the people.
Out now close our borders make our own laws sick of us being dictated to
In a word, no.
Olá. Escrevo em português. Se tentar-mos abstrair-mo-nos de dados estatísticos, informações económicas (que terão a sua relevância mas que para o efeito turbarão a perspectiva), reparamos que a UE é formada por países cujas histórias de entrelaçam, pelos melhores ou piores motivos sempre se comunicaram e interagiram. A história, a base da UE é a Europa (quase se confundem). Neste ponto de vista, e tendo em conta os motivos que levaram à criação deste espaço económico (que deve ser – no meu ponto de vista, apenas económico), como a necessidade de os povos se unirem para fazer face aos gigantes dos extremos do planisfério, não faz sentido o RU abandonar a UE. Deve permanecer “connosco”. A verdade é que da igualdade entre Estado que se pretendia passou-se para um “imperialismo” inato de certos povos – eis um problema que sempre existiu na Europa, saber quem manda mais. O RU deve permanecer na UE e as suas divergências devem contribuir para a mudança na UE – mais transparente, próxima, cidadã.
yes
Matt, as you point out, it was conceived as a trading partnership,a partnership which I personally endorsed. Who allowed it to transform itself into a political union, without further ratification?
You also appear to have excluded one of the largest potential trading blocks in the world, namely the commonwealth, which you have conveniently omitted from your calculations.
As for Russia, I do not accept that Russia threatens us in any way. The problem is that the West has moved into positions directly adjacent to the Russian border, and they feel threatened. Incidentally, remember the Cuban missile crisis, a direct parallel with today’s situation,when the then Soviet Union attempted to move rockets into Cuba. The American reaction was predictable: “Turn your ships back or we blow them out of the water”. The world held its breath until The Soviets pulled back.
As for our friends in Europe, are they the ones who during the battle to liberate the Falklands refused to sell us ammunition while providing Argentina with Exocet missiles.
I saying yes. Like the 85% of the public. Specially after the head of bank of England turned around and made a statement.saying that the Two million foreigners working for peanuts are keeping the English man’s wages down. SO OUT NOW.
NO , Britain is one of the most important countries for EU . I hope they are going to stay .
NO, but Europe MUST change!
YES. I agree with you Geoffrey.
Well, I don’t think, then they should leave. First of all, they are one of the “big” countries, which helps the EU to be solvent. Second of all, they was, and still they are, one of the leading nations, which means, if they leave the EU it will be also a huge hit for the goodwill of Union and also they will be something like a non-solid partner for the future.
Yes. Otherwise they’ll always be a disturbance. It’s only like that that they’ll learn
What have the UK to learn Alex?
No, Britain is an important member of EU in my opinion. Both part needs each other!
I really dont no why british has to be in the eu…britain is an empire …they dont need anyone…hehehehehe
Absolutely, not!
Yes get us out now and quick!
Of course not. The only way a common market will work is with a political union. “Harmonisation” was always a long term goal of the EEC, and people who tell you otherwise are either liars or fools
Absolutely NOT! You’re right Nadia Ionescu!!!
No
Yes, back to USA.
Rampant xenophobia as usual. The World is a small place. Our children are connected all over the world. No longer is it possible to survive in a form of splendid isolation. I am English due to the same accident of birth as everyone else..
Stephen
Interesting that you say your English and not British? Could this be xenophobia against the other nations of the UK?
That said, I always describe myself as English but this is mainly because I have had no real contact with other British people from outside England.
Yes.
Yes
Yes so all the foreigners living of the state can’t come and get everything for nout
Get out b4 its 2late. 2late now anyway.
If you want us to leave make sure you understand the implications
Without a doubt. We’re paying into a dead duck. It was always about France and Gernany and still is.
The future iscwith China and India and the EU knows it
Well the answer is simple Yes ! Join UKIP and say we must leave the European union sooner than later !!
No, it should be expeled.
and letting us alone with Germany and France? No, please.
NO , Britain is one of the most important countries for EU . I hope they are going to stay .
The poxy EU was touted as a trading arrangement, I have no problem with that, but to lose the sovereignty of a country like the UK is absolutely stupid.
Yes yes yes we will be better off iif we left
Britain’s f all but a name tag to the eu.
It depends on what the renegotiation gives us
Absolotely NOT. As Geography shows, and History has shown time and time again (oh, how weak is the memory of Men…), Britain is part of Europe, and Europe is part of Britain. It has always been so, but it’s even more so with globalisation, and the rise of China – and Russia; the bear is raging again, and it wants blood. The EU needs to change? Yes. So, let’s change it, not leave it. Let’s not be shortsighted, let’s see the medium/long term, not just the immediate. United we stand, divided we fall.
No way !
Yes
No way… We need to be part of a a wider marketplace.
Yes
OUT ASAP. Do you people who say no realise what you are giving up……Magna Carta, bill of rights,
Our freedoms which you will not have inside Europe, no voting for your own government, there will
be no parliament as according to the E.U Commission it will become irrelevant,all member states will
be put inside the Euro Zone, regional assemblies introduced, no Army Navy of Air force, the bank of
England goes transfered to E.U Central Bank, all four nations of the UK will be dropped in favour of
Regions, and so on and so on etc etc etc. There is a lot more to come stuff the E.U.
Υes. We should force no one stay where they’d rather not, and people should always have the right to decide their future..
Yes
Hahhaha of course NOT!
Ja
yes
No
Is it just Britain (ENgland and wales) or Great Britain or the UK?? Anyway… we’ve all seen through the years that the UK only wants the benefits that come with being part of the European Union…
I know that something should change in the EU but the reality is that being part of a union you have to deal with the good and bad and not pick what you want.
So it seems the UK would like to exit this Union but maintain the benefits of free trade, etc, like Switzerland has for example.
If this happens then it would be the gateway for other EU nations to do the same (the ones that spend more €/£).
I believe that if an exit happens no matter what country leaves the European Union it should be treated like others that are not part of the EU or EFTA/Schengen … and only after a few years it should be negotiated a possible agreement to join EFTA/Schengen
Cesar,
If the Uk leaves the EU and the EU raised trade barriers then we would benefits as the UK has a 79% Trade Deficit with the UK. So in otherwords it would cost you more than it costs the UK.
Not until the morning!
Germany has tried to rule Europe twice. Both times she failed. But not this time. Who rules Europe today? Wake up England. Up and at em. Our forefathers didnt die in two world wars to allow the bastards to win by stealth.
You have the commonwealth. . So you don’t need to stay in EU
Alessandro
We HAD the Commonwelath but lost it when we joind the EU.
The people of this country fought two world wars fighting for liberty and our way of life. If we become a region of a German led EU then their efforts and sacrifices were in vein. In europe yes but not run by unelected beurocrats in a political union.
No doubt – de Gaulle was, hélas, right. If the Brits do not wish a federal nor confederal European State, they should leave asap or, if necessary, be put out. Enough is enough.
No
Never
While this is on debate, Argentina was already in Moscow. More than ever UK needs Europe to ensure the will of the people who live in the Falklands is respected.
yes, immediately
Yes! !!
Up to them…Europe does not need Britain.
2nd largest NET Contributor to EU coffers, more EU migrants than any other EU country. Seat on NATO, 79% Trade Surplus with the UK
What exactly do you not need (BTW ROI has indicated that they would consider leaving if the UK left)
Logic says no. Sentiment says yes. Logic should win.
Explain logic reasons please
Andressa Gessner
If you ask this question again and again it’s just going to make people more angry! Wait for the bloody referendum and find out!!!!
No. End.
no.
No
No
no
We should get out over half our trade is outside the EU and there are plenty of markets opening up.
If we had been told the truth by Edward Heath originally we wouldn’t have joined. We were told it was for free trade. No mention of numerous MEP’s on exorbitant pay & expenses. Most important we were not told he’d already signed away our fishing rights. This has led to overfishing which has resulted in a depletion of stock. The usual subterfuge by a prime minister to get the result he wanted.
Hat ha nem akarjak a napozo gorogoket etetni,az angol adofizetok penzebol,akkor angolosan lelepnekpgondolom
Certainly not. For similar reasons that I wouldn’t want to see Scotland leave the UK. Surely, it’s always better to join together than separate? Separation leads to nationalism and an ‘us and them’ attitude. Let’s live together and learn from each other.
Depends on the reasons if is just about migrants no X if people have more legitimate reasons then okay X it shouldn’t be a reaction based on one issue x
The EU will fail eventually you cant legislate your way to union nationalism will always come through
Not…, absolutely : at first.., UK ‘s just sold out for Russia , China , India , & co. by 30 years ago ( all countries out of EU ) ; without EU , UK will be unable to look for new merchandise alliances in all over the world ; now the english £. is too expensive for all these aren’t rich..; her Welfare was just destroyed by Tories ( from the Iron Lady ) , and the big party of her people can survive only trading with EU..If this possibility will be lost.., the English ( or UK ) people will be divided between only two parties : the super-riches ( 1/100.000 ) and the poors ( 100.000/1 )..The day after , if you prefere this kind of life.., before or after this situation will shoot down the country like a super bomb …! Why not , also let’s live together and learn from each other.???
The UK is the 6th Largest economy in the World able to forge its own agreements as people wish to trade with us.
Our trade with the EU has been diminishing for the last decade and is now at 43.7%, but this figure includes products being shipped via Rotterdam to other parts of the world.
We also have a 79% trade deficit with the EU so you need us more than we do for trade reasons, and even more so for our contributions to the EU coffers
We should go back to what we voted for in the first place a free trade agreement no more no less.
Little England should go, Scotland and Wales and Ireland should stay.
when you stay in,accept the euro,and the rest ,if not ,join the USA and take dollars
Yes we should quit, cos we don’t need the shit that Europe throws our way, especially Belgium and Germany
Get now while we can still repair the damage
YES sooner rather than later.
no
YES!NO ECONOMIC,SOCIAK N POLITICAL IMPACT!
YES!NO ECONOMIC,SOCIAK N POLITICAL IMPACT!
EveryTreaty signed first by Conservatives followed by New Labour were detrimental to our Country and the British People were betrayed. Also in 2004 the three old parties plus the Green Party in 2004 signed in Brussels for OPEN BORDERS which in my opinion was SHEER STUPIDITY. More and More Public Services being cut despite higher taxes that were used for migrants.
I just heard the news saying that the Brits are very concerned about migrant workers. And since the migrant workers are either: doing jobs the Brist do not want to do, doing jobs the naughty Brits take advantage of, or doing jobs where the migrant worker is highly skilled and the skills are in short supply in the UK – it seems that the UK needs to figure out what the real problem is. Migrant workers do not seem to be the real issue – at least to those of us living outside the UK. It would seem that the analysis and report that covers migrant workers, benfit and health tourisum and international works (those from outside the UK), needs to be made public…. It may be an eye opener and save a lot of effort and money being wasted… Where is the real hard evidence, facts and figures – kill this rumor once and for all with the report commissoned by the UK.
So you think there are lots of jobs in the UK that “Brits do not want to do” that wouldn’t get done until an Eastern European comes and does it for us?………..Surely someone who asks for “real hard evidence, facts and figures” shouldn’t be repeating such an often quoted but totally unproven rumor as that?
If you want some “hard evidence” then visit one of the larger agricultural counties of the UK and ask young people why they cant get what used to be traditional seasonal work for them, then look around the farms at the blocks of portable accommodation housing dozens of eastern Europeans with none of the financial responsibilities of the indigenous population and who will happily work for peanuts
As for ” doing jobs where the migrant worker is highly skilled and the skills are in short supply in the UK” …exactly what we do want, unfortunately very much in the minority
Until you have lived in the UK and tried to compete against EU migrants taking low paid jobs, who are then supported by firms to claim as many additional benefits as possible, then do not try to comment.
As for facts, the House of Commons Economic Specialists issued a Briefing Paper for MP’s and Ministers on 15/10/14. This identified 8 credible reports on the impact of migration and EU membership. Only 3 of the reports (including 2 funded by the Eu) concluded that the Uk benefited economically, 1 was neutral and the other 4 all showed that the UK economy suffered by up to £10bn p.a.
“Until you have lived in the UK and tried to compete against EU migrants taking low paid jobs, who are then supported by firms to claim as many additional benefits as possible”
http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-busting-real-figures-benefit-fraud
Read it, then we talk. I got no time for right-wing propaganda.
Some nice quotes for you:
“The State of the Nation report published in 2010 by the Government of David Cameron estimated the total benefit fraud in the United Kingdom in 2009/10 to be approximately £1 billion.[3] Figures from the Department for Work and Pensions show that benefit fraud is thought to have cost taxpayers £1.2 billion during 2012–13, up 9 per cent on the year before.[4] A poll conducted by the Trades Union Congress in 2012 found that perceptions among the British public were that benefit fraud was high – on average people thought that 27% of the British welfare budget is claimed fraudulently;[5] however, official UK Government figures have stated that the proportion of fraud stands at 0.7% of the total welfare budget in 2011/12.[6]”
In other words there is a CONCERTED CAMPAIGN to make benefits fraud appear bigger than it is.
But why?
Here’s the answer:
“The political scientist Adam Taylor showed that the targeting of benefit fraud was disproportionate and was evidence of “government using strong-arm tactics on the weakest members of British society”: the disabled and the poor.[7] Taylor argued that the amount of money lost to false benefit claims was small compared to the huge amount lost to tax fraud which he estimated costing the UK economy £150bn, yet comparatively little and in most cases nothing at all was done to pursue corporate tax evaders who currently still defraud the people of the UK with the aid of the UK Government. Taylor argued that the crucial difference between these two practices is that “the former is committed by the weakest and most vulnerable of society, while the far more damaging crime is being committed by the richest (and the most corrupt traitors) in the UK.””
TL;DR
THE RICH are robbing the country blind while you fools are railing up against ‘evul immigrants’.
Adrian,
Firstly, the State of the Nation Report is not produced by Government.
Secondly, My comment you quote refers to benefits, not fraud. These benefits are not just out of work but also child benefit (sent abroad) and more importantly “In Work Benefits” which can be worth more to a person than their actual wage and far exceeed the amount of money they contribute to the Exchequer. So don’t tey to smudge the issue. If people could not come into the Uk and get benefits to support their low paid job then they probably wold not come unless they had a dire need.
We need to leave the EU as quickly as possible, we don’t need them for trade, we can trade with a lot of other countries around the world. We also do not want them meddling in our laws or way of life etc. It will end austerity that we only have due to paying the EU extortionate sums of money, and stop the misery of so many people. It does not seem to matter if the UK does well economically, because when we do, the EU takes more money from us, so austerity will never end ever! We will always be penalised for doing well. Putting economic and trading to one side, I have always thought the EU apart from being undemocratic, I feel that there is a much more sinister side to them. I have concerns about the NHS and as they frequently mention our “ageing population” getting GP surgeries to ask their patients if they our over 65 and suffering with a chronic condition if they want to sign a form stating that they do not wish to be resuscitated and now saying to many patients are getting medication
GP’s should not be prescribing and letting certain illnesses take their course? really? I dread to think what our lives are going to be like in 10 years time if we remain in the prison of the EU.
If the electorate had been given a vote before edward heath decided the u.k. should join they would have voted not to.
Of course they will not refuse to trade with us, they cannot afford to, we are the 5th largest economy in the WORLD! So they will trade with us and we with them, after all, they need us far more than we need them! We were trading with the world, when Europe was still feudal! Get us out if the corrupt EU !now
We should exit the EU ASAP no referendum just get us out.
How anyone can believe we would have a fair and honest vote on this
question after our very corrupt general election I do not know
The EU is now a dictatorship exactly like Russia was before the world pushed for Russia to be broken up saying it was to powerful.We now have a European union UNELECTED FACELESS people trying to establish exactly the same scenario.Its unbelievable and DANGEROUS.Britain is an island we can and will manage just fine on our own Don’t let the establishment brainwash you into thinking that we cannot afford to be isolated.Rubbish.We have a new world order taking place right under our noses and you are all ignoring it.Im afraid unless we exit the EU altogether your children and grandchildren have NO FUTURE in their own country.Be strong push for an exit NOW.
Just a little something for certain people to put in their pipe and smoke…
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/17/jcb-boss-says-eu-exit-could-lift-burden-of-bureaucracy-on-uk-businesses
@Paul X:
LOL no pipe to smoke or tobacco, which smells far too foul for my delicate snout.
Do you really believe the red tape we have came from Europe as a community? Surely as you are a grown lad you must remember how Britain came to be in Europe in the first place? You do know it was done with the kind of deceit we in the UK had not experienced from our modern leaders to that point. And, it was not Labour the dreaded socialists who were the marching designers, it was the Conservatives, those Capiotalists at every step of the way. Blair was not a socialist he was a right wing Conservative and still is. Again hiding it the way we read in this paper. Now earning more of his money from the US masterminds at the back of turning New Labour into even more Capitalist Newer Labour.
Read this run donw fully, it began in the fifties but cam in full duplicitous strength by Macmillan 1961. Our subsequent politicians kept it going and were the instigators of most of the laws churned out by what became the EU. All dictated from the masters in the USA. Thatcher, the most horrendous trickster of them all, making way for the Blair creature to seal our fate.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/eu/britain-and-europe-the-culture-of-deceit.htm?xp=paper
So, stop playing the anti socialism game. The money men of Gloabaslism have taken all European citizens for blind fools and that includes you, me and the rest of the UK electorate.
Thatcher, and her obssesive infatuation with Reagan made it easy for them to sell their wares to an idiot and vain woman. Not that men are not idiotically vain also, but, they are not quite as susceptible to falling on the floor at being referred to as ‘classy and beautiful’ by their childhood film stars.
All the business red tape is regulation the Globalists want removed in order to scam the serfs of the pittance they still have and keep them at the grindstone seven days a week with the carrot of debt. And it was put in place with the collusion of the British politicians.
Europe, as a whole, needs a massive change in direction. What the American people are willing to put up with is their business. We European first need freedom from their Global control movement, followed by the right of every citizen to be part of ‘Direct Democracy’ that is watched over very closely by a special patrol of outside rigging overseers, who cannot be paid by laundered money.
Look back into the foundation of the EEC and before. You will be surprised to note they were connected to other countries for the funds to set this union up. In 2003 I went to a seminar of one of the main players in the foundation of this politicial union, an old man who confirmed he was a European and a Prince spoke. Otto von Habsburg, born Crown Prince of Austria-Hungary 1912. He was with his friend Edmund de Rothschild CBE. So, not a socialist in sight.
What the Globalists are wanting is complete deregulation from any kind of control and look how that has taken us back to the days of unbearable poverty already. Of course only for the common man, lining up at food banks in their millions now.
Look around you.
Catherine Benning, you must be a raving socialist to suggest that the reason some businesses say we should leave is because the with to create serfs. How stupid, so what about those who want to stay, are they all telling the truth!!
A significant proportion of UK red tape does originate out of EU regulations. The problem is that the UK enacts these regulations properly while many other countries enact them in the way that causes them least harm. So we comply and suffer while they stick the proverbial two fingers up and gain a benefit.
How to I know, guess who used to be involved in such negotiations (p.s. it was not you)
I am so sick and tired of that buffoon Nigel Farage constantly belittling everyone from eastern Europe.
Constantly having the whining and crying about the “evil EU” who “rules from Brussels” uuuuu scary!
I don’t want the UK to leave but if i have to choose the EU, freedom of movement and cooperation over UK jingoism, i choose the EU anytime.
UK can go to hell if they don’t want to be a team player.
The EU will be poorer but will survive.
The UK…well…let’s just say London is about to get a lot ‘grayer’.
( I voted “no” in the poll because i genuinely believe the UK is better off in than out, but it is up to them if they want to be screwed by the rich “libertarians” who run UKIP or be part of an european cooperation mechanism )
Adrian it is not a matter of free movement of workers which was part of the treaties but rather the change due to legal rulings to the freedom of movement of benefit seekers.
The UK welcomes those who come in to make a positive contribution without recourse to benefits, but those who come in to take up low paid, low skilled work and to have their incomes topped up far in excess of their tax contribution to the UK, receive housing benefits, council or housing association preference over UK citizens and access to free healthcare, are not required.
As to the UK being greyer, everyone said that if the UK did not join the Euro then London would disappear as a financial centre. Yet it is still here and stronger than ever.
If we are so better in the EU why does Britain have a debt more than a trillion as for Nigel he is right in what he says BRITAIN SHOULD RULE ITS OWN COUNTRY not be the PURSE for the EU where money not only goes to other EU Countries but non EU Countries as well.
I want to live in a country in which we can vote for the people that make our laws, not by the EU where most of the laws are made by un-elected people that just applied for a job.
The EU does not “write laws” merely SUGGESTS laws.
Your own damn “westminster” is picking what to implement.
Adrian the EU passes regulations which must be enacted into national statute. This is not suggesting.
A Brexit would symbolize a failure of the whole European project. The idea of the EU is to substain peace and extend prosperity by integrating us more and more. If Britain leaves the EU, Ireland might follow as well. Other states may stop seeing the EU as an attractive place for their future and thus leave the EU as well. We already now struggle with regional disparities and the EU needs the support of the countries having a stronger economy to tackle those and become a better integrated community.
Also, there would be a lot of economic and political difficulties Britain would need to tackle, London might loose its position as the economic centre in Europe (the Deutsche Bank already announced they might leave London if there was a Brexit) and the economy would be hit hard in general, too. The UK itself already today does face the issue of Scottish independence efforts, a reason why many Scots voted against their independence was surely to remain in the EU, as they are profiting from it directly through the CAP or the RDF. So, if regions within the UK are addicted to EU- agricultural payments you cannot stop them from one day to another. Also I personally do not understand the argument that Britain would get its power/sovereignity back if they left the EU. A Hansard Research Paper dealing with the impact of a Brexit says that
“if at present the policy on a devolved matter in Scotland, Wales ans Northern Ireland is constrained by EU law, a removal of that constraint […] would allow the three nations to develop their own policies” (Research Paper 13/42, 2013)
So, a further devolution won’t make the UK sticking together better, but maybe cause new political conflicts. Further, if we take a look on immigration, one can say that 48% of the immigrants in Britain indeed are EU-citizens, but most of them are quite young workers contributing to the British social system. And one should not omit that here are 1.4 million Britons living and working in other European countries as well. Should we really deport them to the UK, albeit they’ve lived in this country for years?
And what is the alternative to the EU? A new trade deal won’t serve Britain in the way the EU serves the UK at the moment. And despite the fact that 60-million-people-Britain couldn’t compete with for example Asian countries in the future, by 2050 the UK will be the largest member state in the EU. So, if they’ll have the largest power in the European Parliament quite soon, why now bother to risk their economic and political future?
Of course the European economy will be affected as well, but not as hard as the British one. Maybe it might benefit from a brexit as well. But if we just take a look on European integration, it is a 50% chance whether the EU fails or even gains a profit from withdrawing the country putting most vetoes on a deeper integrated community.
The UK won 2 world wars to stay independent, and we were tricked into joining what was at the time called the cowman market, so that we could be defeated, by Europeans who changed the common market into the EU, it was the only way we could be invaded.
Anna,
The UK receives a paltry amount from CAP.
Everyone said that London would collapse and banks etc would leave if the UK did not join the EU. Well London as a financial centre just keeps getting stronger and stronger.
You quote Hansard but do not state what MP you are quoting. The independent reports are the Library Specialist Briefing Notes.
The Federalisation of the UK is going to occur whether the UK remains in the EU or not, what would change is that laws would no longer be dictated by by EU regulation.
5.7 million EU migrants live in the UK (including dependants), 2.4 million live in EU countries. Those from the EU working low paid jobs receive in work benefits, housing etc which our citizens do not get in other member states. Therefore the young EU citizens are not necessarily net contributors (and the 2015 EU CReAM Report stating otherwise (originally published and discredited in 2013) has once again been discredited).
In comparision UK Citizens do not receive in work benefits in the EU so tend to either do higher paid work or live within their means. They also do not get housing benefit. A significant number of UK citizens have actually retired to the continent and have bought property and spend their money, including pensions in those countries.
As regards the economy well we run a 79% Trade Deficit with the EU and they are a declining percentage of our trade even before you exclude the Rotterdam effect. You will also be aware that Ireland have indicated that if there is a BRIXET if may well be followed by their own as they perceive that the UK will gain a trading advantage.
Blugalf, where do you get your 110 from? I gave you 660.
The problem is that the UK is fair on people in need of support and has a decent social system. People are coming to the UK in breach of Directive 2004/38/EC and becoming a burden on our state and infrastructure. Netherlands does not have the same problem.
P.S. That is what the UK does want to do, limit migration, glad you agree :)
“Blugalf, where do you get your 110 from? I gave you 660.”
Lol, it’s scaled down to percentage. You really are the sharpest tool in the shed aren’t you. And I thought it would make things a bit plainer.
Get your head around it, GB is densely populated, D almost as densely. The difference being, for all sane intents and purposes, negligible. Neither countries are nearly as densely populated as the Benelux region.
Based on your quote: “The UK is also one of Europe’s most congested countries, whereas Germany has plenty of space.” I’d have to say that that you’re just plain stupid and that your now trying to dodge like a cornered rat.
Familiar with Germany, eh.
“110 people live in it per unit of area – when, at the same time, 100 people live, per same same unit of area, in another country”
Those were your words Blugalf. No definition of unit of area nor of the other country being Germany in your comparison.
I would guess therefore that I am the intelligent one ad that you are the rat stuck in a corner trying to twist facts as the way you have tried to present this is as a proper statistic based on recognised units (10th of a square mile is no recognised unit that I have ever heard of).
You were also careful not to say Germany so as to imply something else, hence the question for the basis of your facts, which turned out to have been made up to you.
BTW when I pointed out the origins and where some of my family were located in Germany you went very quite. So yes I am quite familiar with Germany, just not familiar with lying, twisting people who try to mis-manage data to mis-represent information.
If you are going to use stats etc make sure you use them properly Blugalf. This is nearly as bad as your calculation of the UK’s contribution to the EU budget using the gross EU budget against the net EU contribution. Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics as Disraeli said.
“Those were your words Blugalf. (…)”
Just what are you trying to achieve with those laughable manoeuvres, Danny?
Anyone with even the wits to count to ten would have gotten it 3 posts ago. So I can only assume that you can’t for the life of you accept the facts, and that you would rather continue with your empty jazz in the faint hope that it’s going to fool anyone.
Look at what you said. Then look at the numbers. That’s all there is to it.
Poor Blugaff,
get’s caught trying to misuse statistics and in fact creating his own that would not be recognised by any intelligent person and has to squirm.
If you want to create statistics then provide parameters and references both of which you failed to do
“get’s caught trying to misuse statistics and in fact creating his own that would not be recognised by any intelligent person and has to squirm.
If you want to create statistics then provide parameters and references both of which you failed to do”
:-) Danny, please! This is getting ridiculous. Any ‘intelligent person’ would have conceded this very, very simple fact ages ago. Come on, you know as well as me that you’re up a blind alley here. You were wrong, just let it go. Who do you think is going to fall for this hollow claptrap of yours? Who would believe that you’re actually unable to do simple percent calculation or at least understand it?
Blugalf,
“110 people live in it per unit of area – when, at the same time, 100 people live, per same same unit of area, in another country”
Those were your words Blugalf. No definition of unit of area nor of the other country being Germany in your comparison. Therefore these were made up statistics.
But let me give you a chance to save yourself. Define the Unit which equates to 110 and 100.
Also justify comparing the Net UK Contribution against a Gross figure, give me the calculations that would mathematically allow you to calculate the overall percentage contribution (including rebates etc) for the UK.
If you can do both of these I will be interested, until you can do so you are blowing statistics out of hot air and giving credence top Disraeli “Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics
Just admit Blugalf that you deliberately tried to mislead and made up you own statisics
“No definition of unit of area nor of the other country being Germany in your comparison. Therefore these were made up statistics.”
Hum ho, we can play your pathetic game until hell freezes over. I promise it’s going to be one downhill straight for you, irrelevant of how many more of those inane maneuvers you might want to pull to distract from your blunders. “made up statistics”, ha ha. Your good entertainment.
“110 people live in it per unit of area – when, at the same time, 100 people live, per same same unit of area, in another country, incidentally the one with the largest population within the EU.”
So, yeah, I guess it could have been Malta I was talking about [rolls eyes]
If you seriously can’t see that above sentence is equal to “for 110 people in the UK thers’s 100 in Germany”, then you really are imbecile beyond help. You calling anyone dense is just comical, Mr. bigshot manager :-), Mr. “The UK is also one of Europe’s most congested countries, whereas Germany has plenty of space.” who now tries to get out of it by wiggling like a worm on the hook.
So, Danny, you just missed one more “chance to save yourself” :-)
So Blugaff still cannot define his unit of area to create his fake statistics.
Stop defending your undefendable position and admit you made up false statistics.
Stop defending your undefendable position and admit you made up false statistics.
Just when one would think you could’nt possibly make yourself look even more stupid, you completely outdo yourself again. Bravo, haha, bravo.
Percentage calculation is “false statistics” to you, huh? Then what do you call a square root – black magic? Do me favor, ask the next 12 year old you meet to explain to you why area cancels out when you divide two pop densities.
Fact: pop density GB:DE 110:100
Danny: “The UK is also one of Europe’s most congested countries, whereas Germany has plenty of space.”,
At least thats’s one more stupid thing you won’t say again. Watching you squirm trying to distract from this wrong claim of yours is good fun indeed.
Blugalf,
Let’s cut to the chase.
You have yet to state your recognised Unit Size for your “per unit” stats.
So give me the exact size that would be recognised by any geographical student or statistician.
Until you can your calcs are just bull and you know it.
You have yet to state your recognised Unit Size for your “per unit” stats.
No, I don’t. That’s a totally bogus demand invented by you to distract from the fact that you made an erroneous statement. By saying something as painfully absurd as that the only thing you’re demonstrating is your inability to do even the most basic arithmetic. If you understood that, you’d realize that area is given implicitly by the number of people, 110 vs 100 and the absolute pop densities, and that it cancels out of this equation.
It’s really very simple – we British live on a small island and the strain of immigration is impossible to sustain and we want to make our rules to suite our needs. We don’t need others to keep telling us what we can and can’t do from some unelected unconstitutional body and pay for the privilege into the growing begging bowl that is the European Union
1. The number of immigrants FROM THE EU ( because those are your “extra” as a member ) aren’t the biggest in Europe.
In fact Germany gets a LOT more and they don’t complain as much like babies.
2. The EU is more democratic than your so-called QUEEN and LORDS. So spare us the moral superiority.
3. You can leave and by god i HOPE you leave so we can progress without backwards 19th century views like yours. Good riddance!
“In fact Germany gets a LOT more and they don’t complain as much like babies”
Germany is a lot bigger country and people won’t fall off the edge when it is full….
Adrian and Paul, Germany is a lot bigger and does have more EU migrants. Those migrants however are not able to claim such beneficial benefits in Germany and so do not tend to impact so much either on social housing or the lower starter jobs. They are therefore more net contributors than the average EU migrant to the UK.
The UK is also one of Europe’s most congested countries, whereas Germany has plenty of space.
The Royal Family have no role in our democracy or the designing of laws, the Lords is a very good barrier against democratic abuse and cannot overcome the assent of the House of Commons.
When we leave it looks like Ireland may follow as they perceive the economic advantage the UK would gain.
Blugaf, Get your facts right
UK 660 per square mile
Germany 609 per square mile
The UK is the most populated major EU country as calculated by statiticians
The UK also tends to negotiate hard and then implement fully whereas otehr EU countries amend the regulations to their benefit
Adrian the House of Lords does not make laws, it can however comment and recommend amendments which the House of Commons can ignore.
Blugalf, Can’t remember you ever succeeding in giving me a roasting but you are of course welcome to try.
Netherlands does have a higher pop density than the UK but from a statistical viewpoint (which includes EU statisticians) it is not deemed a major country. I made this quite clear.
The population growth in Netherlands however is neither as significant as the UK’s nor is it as a result of migration (26.7%).
Glad to see you concede the 10% figure but am very surprised that you do not see it as significant. On this basis perhaps you would like to transfer top myself 10% of your income and wealth, after all it is insignificant to you. Look forward to my windfall.
@”Danny Young” et al., that income comparison isn’t just dirt poor, it’s completely broke. Let’s look at it again, shall we.
BTW – I need not concede anything here, I am, and always have been, quite well aware of the numbres – thank you very much. Just give it a go and actually /read/ my posts.
You claim your country is oh so tortured, and stressed, and special, and screwed because 110 people live in it per unit of area – when, at the same time, 100 people live, per same same unit of area, in another country, incidentally the one with the largest population within the EU. I’m quite positive you’d not in a million years notice any difference in density stress were you to live in either country for a while. As a thought experiment, you might consider chucking out 5 people out of a hundred so they have to live in B instead of A. I’m sure that would open up a wholly new perspective on things, right.
Adrian you are talking rubbish. Germany’s land mass is so much greater and population proportionality smaller. Germany has also shown great intolerance to Turks so don’t give us that rubbish.
Second it us clear you know nothing of the UK monarchy. The Queen does not pass laws other than those given by parliament. Parliament that is elected by the British people – when did you last elect a European Council Member, the governing body that passes laws and tells us we can only buy and do things we may wish not to.
We can’t even kick people out of OUR country even with the consent of our people and government because some idiots in Brussels says so. Unelected idiots too.
>Germany’s land mass is so much greater and population proportionality smaller.
Try and get your basic facts straight.
D has virtually the same population densitiy as UK. UK has about 70% the area of D.
|when did you last elect a European Council Member
Last time I voted for my national parliament. Which then elected a head of government who in turn is a member of the European Council. Whose policy is subject to approval of the european parliament, which I also happened to vote for. The ‘unelected’ mantra you just invoked usually refers to the commission. Which many people lacking the will to check basic facts often mistake for some sort of EU government.
The EU – does not- “tell” you – what laws – to pass.
It simply “suggests”. It is up to national parliaments to adopt said laws in the ways they see fit. It’s not my fault UK’s parliament has a warped view on things.
I know the queen doesn’t make laws, the house of lords however if my memory serves me right does. And you can’t touch them either, they are there “for life”.
Actually the EU commission proposes legislation, the European parliament rubber stamps them and then EU commission enforces them
http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm
National Parliaments have to enforce this legislation or be taken to that other pillar of democracy the European Court of Justice
http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/applying-eu-law/index_en.htm
Looks pretty much stitched up to me
>European parliament rubber stamps them and then EU commission enforces them
It’s not quite that simple actually.
But after all I understand why you’d use a derogatory term like /rubberstamp/ here. Your national parliament doesn’t ‘rubberstamp’ proposals does it, it scrutinizes them with all due care, modifies them, perhaps even rejects them. Naturally the EP doesn’t do any of these things, because, well, they’re just a bunch of prattlers and anyway most of them are from the continent; elected and all, what can they be but idiots.
:-) Danny I already told you that in another comment. It’s ever so slightly higher than Germany’s. If I were in the mood to give you another roasting I’d say you chose mile² over km² here to come up with bigger numbers. Doesn’t help- in percentage the UK has a 10% lead, thats it. Boo hoo. Anyone with a minimum of common sense would say the definition ‘virtually the same’ holds perfectly here.
Also there is -and I told you this before too- no ‘major’ countries here. The Netherlands, for example, are are way ahead when in comes to population density, specifically they are way ahead of GB and D, but I guess that doesn’t suit your needs so they are taken out of the ‘major’ equation. Netherlands, Shmeatherlands. Rest assured though, even if they’re not as large as D or UK, they ‘suffer’ just as much and they know all too well what overpopulation and density stress and heavy influx of foreigners mean. What I don’t see though is them moaning boasting and and pouting and demanding special treatment, or else.
“Actually the Brits are paying for their share of the pie, those who are receiving a free slice should shut up and be grateful….”
Utter posh !
*Everyone* pays for a slice of the pie, those who can pay more do so to help those who can’t to lift them up.
That’s the point of a UNION.
Blugalf, Can’t remember you ever succeeding in giving me a roasting but you are of course welcome to try.
Netherlands does have a higher pop density than the UK but from a statistical viewpoint (which includes EU statisticians) it is not deemed a major country. I made this quite clear.
The population growth in Netherlands however is neither as significant as the UK’s nor is it as a result of migration (26.7%).
Glad to see you concede the 10% figure but am very surprised that you do not see it as significant. On this basis perhaps you would like to transfer top myself 10% of your income and wealth, after all it is insignificant to you. Look forward to my windfall.
Adrian, If you get back more than you put in then effectively your slice is free to you, worse even you are paid to eat it!!!
Forget about economics and numbers, It is irrelevant whether Britain benefits or loses, all that matters is it is an act of treason. Entering into the EU is the worst crime committed in a free society, one which the punishment of was historically being hanged drawn and quartered. We will leave the EU even if it takes blood because it is the right and moral thing to do based on principle and the constitution of our once free society. A sovereign nation is the only way for a free society
| all that matters is it is an act of treason.
(cue the violins)
| We will leave the EU even if it takes blood
Luckily all it takes is one single letter.
Are we still in the eu. Can we leave now.
You cant be chucked out, thats the trouble. The contracts wont allow it.
The lot of you will have to pick up your own hat and leave. Perhaps you should consider actually doing it instead of constantly barking up the wrong tree. Do your part – it’s really simple! Vote YES in the upcoming referendum!
All the, EU has done for Great Britain is cost British citizen’s their jobs, and in a lot of cases the jobs are now being done by eastern European people, on a far lower wage, than the English people that lost there jobs, we have Company’s that now only employ immigrants from eastern European countries, and before anyone disputes this I have personally seen it with my own eyes, having been made redundant, after working for the same company for over 30 years, and since only been able to get temp work, and at one large British owned company, I only lasted 2 days as I was the only English speaker on a work shift of over 70 workers, I was unable to keep the job as none of the team leaders and supervisors were able to speak English, and I don’t speak Polish, why should I have to learn a foreran language so to be able to get a job in my own country, also look what the EU has done to the British fishing fleet, that has almost been wiped out, by EU rules.
You do realize msot of these eastern Europeans don’t enjoy leaving their families ti..ahem..LEARN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE ( yeahhh ) and so on either…
What we need is harmonization across Europe. Not radical nuts claiming they want more of the same shrinking pie.
Brits are the nuts who want MORE and LESS for the rest.
The rest of us understand we must make the pie bigger so we ALL have more.
This is the difference.
Actually the Brits are paying for their share of the pie, those who are receiving a free slice should shut up and be grateful…..
The sooner we leave the EU, we have too many immigrants since the windrush in this country and we import too many natural resources as it is. And please dont go on about green jobs, Windfarms are manufactured in germany and china (so how does that give british jobs other then a few managers)
Companies threatening leaving forget historical Island british mentality when threatened
Adrian Limbidis You are talking rubbish, Since we have been invaded by Eastern European immigrants, the British people, cant get social housing, we now have to wait over 2 weeks to see a doctor, we can’t get jobs, as lots of immigrants, are being employed as cheep labour, there wages are being topped up with benefits, this is all caused by uncontrolled immigration.
Well, that thread was an interesting read – most of it confirms what I have experienced over the years while dealing with some Brits when it comes to what they call the Continent. Maybe 95% of their Anti-EU stance is simply their projecting a diffuse sentiment of antipathy and a superiority complex onto an organization with a name. Kick the dog and mean the master, as word has it. Way more than other Europeans they believe they’re very special and important. To rationalize this, they’ll invent the most outlandish bogus and keep clinging to painfully absurd claims and figures which not even the plainest factual confrontation can shake. The less they know about the EU, the more they’re against it- that seems to be a good rule of thumb. It’s almost like a religion, a good definition for which is /not wanting to know/.
Time to say goodbye! It will have to be a final parting, the whole EU project is not something you leave and join as you see fit.
I feel somewhat sorry for the many Brits I’ve met over the years who are educated, level-headed and kind people. Their vote will be overrun by a mobocracy.
Letterman retired the other day didn’t he. Good source for a quote,
“Thank you and good night”
Blugaf, I think you mean that the Brits will stand up and object when others try walking over them. It is this characteristic that has saved Europe twice from being overrun by a militaristic Germany, what we now have is a politic EU with a very string Germanic influence.
Time and time again you have made your comments Blugaf and time and time again I have presented the facts with sources to support my assertions which incidentally many in the UK are beginning to understand and agree with. You on the otherhand just give hot air which unfortunately is the growing perception UK citizens have of those on the continent, just look at how the EU has treated Greece (although they are no beginning to buckle as Greece is not budging) in comparision to the money lavished on the Ukraine.
My dear danny, I’ve given up on you and those like you. Believe what you want. I gave you the facts. There’s things that can be debated, but hard facts like population density, trade volumes and deficits, GDP and EU budget, the EU contracts, etc, etc are not among them. They are what they are. Calling all that hot air because you don’t like the implications – well, your call.
I don’t know how familiar you are with today’s Germany. Judging by your comments — well, lets not go there.
I’m fairly familiar with modern Germany and I can tell you that although there’s still a lot of room for objection in quite a few things they do (and don’t), they’re essentially decent these days. Very well moderated. This spectre of yours of Germany trying to conquer Europe by stealth is frankly laughable. Bar-room claptrap. You feel walked over, seriously? One glorious nation taken hostage by 27 idiots trying to milk it. Still inclined to refer to the world wars to prop up your standing? Okey dokey. I’m sure you’re the one to carry on the legacy. Most of the ‘continent’ lives in the today and sees the UK as a stroppy kid at whose tantrums one can only roll eyes. No one’s going to stop you from exiting. Rest assured, earth will keep spinning even without your help. Comparing Greece to Ukraine, heavens. Talk about apples and oranges.
Blugalf,
Mother from Finnentrop (Nordrhein-Westfalen) So you were saying about Germany?
I have yet to see any hard fact from you, apart form I believe an indirect reference to the debunked (on both publications) CReAM Report. I have given you references from the ONS and House of Commons and House of Lords Economic Specialists amongst other sources.
Do you deny two world wars as a result of German action? DO you also deny the perception within Europe that Germany and Merkel are the dominant factor. Afterall how many times are they referred to as the ones whose viewpoint is pre-eminent.. This is why so many countries in Europe have been burning effigies of Merkel and the German flag.
The comparision between Greece and Ukraine vis-a-vis current EU lending is appropriate although you will be aware that Merkel has indicated this week that the EU negotiators need to back down from confrontation with Greece and the potential not only of their 316bn Euro debt but also leaving the Euro.
So give me some facts please Blugalf, all I seem to hear from you is hot air comments.
Jeeps I need google translate to work out what your saying, just tried it & it still makes no sense. Just say Light Bulbs, Washing Machines, Vacuum Cleaners, Kettles, Toasters, Fridges, Televisions, Video Recorders, Television set top boxes, Radio Alarm Clocks all have to be set to EU standards which mean less power but have to be used for longer. The TV goes off on its own during the cricket because the EU says you can’t be there if you haven’t changed channel in 4 hours
“Mother from Finnentrop (Nordrhein-Westfalen) So you were saying about Germany?”
“Judging by your comments — well, lets not go there.”
That’s what I was saying.
You could be a direct descendent of Bismarck for all I care, but that’s not what counts here.
But Blugalf you accused me of not being up to date with Germany. Once again you have been trounced :)
“But Blugalf you accused me of not being up to date with Germany. Once again you have been trounced :)”
Why, you aren’t. How many times do we have to go through that? it’s not that complicated. If I were to judge you by this quote of yours, say,
“You should be thankful for this as in the last century it is the only thing that saved Europe from being overrun by Germany. This time we may not be able to save you from Germany’s political and economic takeover.”
I’d have to assume you’re a halfwitted pensioned tabloid reader stuck in a loop of C-grade WWII films, who knows precisely nothing of modern Germany and, on top of that, has a very sketchy idea of WW II at best. “The only thing”, eh. Goodness. Sure, forget the Americans and the Soviets, they’d only be in the way of self-absorption here. “Familiar”, I really dont give a flying fcuk where you or any of your mishpocha are actually from, nor does that have any relevance whatsoever here.
And before you bring up any of that other shti again, I’m fairly familiar with European history, thanks. Two of my previous generations, even myself, have been affected by the atrocities of German aggression more than you can imagine.
Trounced – that is quite beyond you I’m afraid. Do it once before you do it once again.
May I ask those that are “leading” why can’t we give immigrants only what they would be entitled to in their own country until they have enough points to qualify, The same as housing they rent until they can (a) afford to buy or have enough points to get housing. Then we then bill the immigrants original country for the benefits they have received? Those that want to come are welcome just change the benefits train.
Or just remove it all together . In work benefits are a construct of corporations who rely on the taxpayer to pay their employees whilst making vast profits
So if we leave it should mean no more VAT , as it was a condition to joining. Can you imagine our government losing 110 billion each year.
VAT would continue, as far as I am aware VAT has nothing to do with the EU
Oh yes it has. Before the EEC we had PURCHASE TAX but once Britain joined the tax become EEC Valued Added Tax VAT which to me was VAMPIRE VAT.
Wow, never knew that. Seems to have replaced the variable purchase tax as you say. Did not know that VAT cannot legally be less than 15%
hi we need a stroing eu soft Power in th World with a military defence battlegroups and nato too….a green ecofriendly sustainable economy and more democratic eua strong force in the World eu johnnyb.
hi we need a strong eu soft Power int he World with defence a green ecofriendly sustainable economy go eu johnnyb.
England yes, but leave Scotland in Europe.
If we leave Scotland in the EU we must make sure they do not keep the Stirling for back ups from the rest of the UK when the EU want more and more money.
Scotland would leave with the rest of the United Kingdom . They had their independence vote and decided to stay with the rest of the UK . That means one out , all out .
As long as they take the real cost of bailing out their banks (not just 7%) and also the real cost of subsidies and investment into the North Sea. The oil comes out because all UK taxpayers have invested in.
Thank you Frances , also purchase tax was only on certain items . Having been told by a VAT officer that this tax is the best tax they ever had ,I am looking forward to having not doing my VAT anymore and getting a 20%reduction to boot.
We need to get out, We have had enough of the EU’s detritus arriving at our shores, they will be expecting us to take some of those Med migrant scroungers next. No thanks
Nigel :Farage; UKIP tell us we pay £55,000,000 “A DAY” to the EU, yet not one person yet anywhere has told us; the British public what we get in return apart from ridiculous legislation on Vacuum cleaners; soon, Lawn Mowers and Red Tape B.S. that is strangling British business. So, what do I get in return; does anyone know; like to tell me; an angry British voter? I voted ONLY for a COMMON MARKET and that is all, I did not vote to let anyone else run Britain apart from a British Government; is that CLEAR? The EU for 17 consecutive years have failed to get their own accounts signed off due to inconsistencies, fraud, loss of invoices and general fiddling of the books; we are told. If the EU wants to throw a tantrum if we British leave; so what, all we want is to TRADE with Europe and that is all; we do not want to be CONTROLLED at all in any form or manner; why should we be, there is no reason whatsoever for Brussels being spiteful and making life difficult for the British if they want to leave, why? because Britain is the leading economy coming out of recession; that cannot be said for most of the EU; member states being propped up by me; an Englishman and a Briton. The Euro has failed, their economise have failed and they continue to waste billions of our pounds and for what; we cannot see what we get in return as mentioned earlier. It is all about creating a Federal Europe, controlled by Brussels; that is totally unacceptable; remember this fact, Britain made the world we live in today, it was the saviour of Europe in WW2 and if any headquarters of a European Union should be; it should be London; Britain. Most of those elected in Brussels; leaders for example we have never heard of and we did not elect. There is much scaremongering to stay in the EU why, because big business bosses care not one jot about us only about their shareholders and live in another world. There is no reason why we should trade with the EU and the Rest of the World freedly; that would upset them of course, hard luck we made your world you live in; invented most of what you have and use and led the way in two world wars for Freedom and Democracy. Trade with the EU but no control at all GOT IT.
Strong sentiments echoed by a lot of people though I’m not sure we’d want the EU HQ in London, I think most (sane) people would be happy if the EU parliament could just agree to meet in one place rather than costing the taxpayer millions by swapping between Brussels and Strasbourg just because of some petty, immature bickering that went on back in the day
There is no reason why we should trade with the EU and the Rest of the World freely….apologies for this mistake; should have read:
There is no reason why we should NOT trade with the EU and the Rest of the World freely.
Delusions of grandeur.
I can think of plenty of reasons why exiting the EU would mean no more FREE trade.
Come on then Limbidis, support your weak comment give us the reasons. And place them against this
The EU has a 79% Trade Surplus with the UK. We are Germany’s largest export market. Trade with the EU (all countries) totals between 35-40% of total UK exports after the Rotterdam effect has been calculated in.
So now why do you think they would permit trade barriers that would cost their economy more.
It’s quite funny to see how so many opponents of democracy (EU-supporters) fail to realize that Britain has all the aces in this whole debate. Britain would be better off out, and the EU would be worse off without Britain, and not just financially (who’se gonna cover the loss of Britain’s net contribution)?
I didn’t mean to bother anymore with you lot – there seems to be little point, but what the hell. Why should only misinformation and ignorance be allowed to hog screen space?
The loss of the UK’s contribution would leave something like a 5% dent in the EU budget. OMG please dont go!
It’s even in this thread somewhere, I wrote all that before, go look it up.
I fully agree that the UK should be out, but I really don’t think the EU would suffer all that much. Don’t kid yourselves. You’re far less important than you think you are.
Blugalf,
You say some of the most idiotic things. 5% where did you get that from.
HERE ARE THE FACTS from the House of Commons Briefing Paper to MP’s and Ministers 21 May 2015
EU Budget 142.6bn
UK Contribution 19.234bn
UK Contribution Percentage 13.49%
So the UK is much more important than you think, try replacing 13.49%!!
“EU Budget 142.6bn (2014)
UK Contribution 19.234bn (2014)
UK Contribution Percentage 13.49%”
Ha, ha, priceless. That’s gross contribution. I’m starting to doubt whether you’ve even grasped the gross-net thing.
How do you think that gross contribution is spent? A good chunk of it goes right back to the UK.
So in the case of Brexit, EU budget would be cut by UKs gross contribution, and at the same time all EU expenditure to the UK would cease.
The difference -the dent in EU budget- being UK’s current net contribution. Is that plain enough?
If you really need a visual, the actual breakdown looks like this: http://www.statista.com/statistics/316888/united-kingdom-uk-transactions-european-union-eu/
“So the UK is much more important than you think, try replacing 13.49%!!”
Look at the data. It’s half that at worst- say 7% for 2014. Even less in the years before. All in all, close enough to “something like 5%” for me. Sorry I didn’t pin it off the top of my head.
Why on earth would that be a dramatic blow? Its quite manageable. EU budget was recently cut by nearly that much anyway. I’ve said it countless times already – your petty fantasies of the EU going to shambles without UK aren’t going to fly.
And -again!- all this is fairly moot anyway – whatever EU nations give to and receive from the EU is completely dwarfed by the size of national budgets. In terms of finances (and not only there), the role of the EU is massively overestimated, particularly by the pseudoskeptics.
So – yes, the UK certainly is less important here than it thinks. Or rather, than you, your avatars and your ilk think it is. There are of course plenty of people in UK who know the facts and who don’t yank arbitrary statistics out of context just to rationalize the diffuse antipathies they’re harboring.
One more thing, I’d use that i-word with a lot more caution if I were you – it tends to come back round :-)
Blugalf,
You do make me laugh. I have given you gross figures. If we look at net then you have to do the same for all other EU Members. This result in the UK as the 2nd largest contributor (Net).
But of course you lacked the foresight for this didn’t you? Or where you not aware that all countries get money back from the EU, a significant number more than they actually contribute?
So please keep on presenting the incomplete picture, I need a laugh in my job.
Danny, you poor wretch. Did you even read it through?
No, we don’t have to do it for all the other members, because they’re not going to exit…
Were you so entangled in your petty schemes?
Read it again -in the case of Brexit- please do make an effort. It would really help things :-)
Blugalf with you continued mis-use of stats I find your intelligence level quite boring.
You presented a link solely to the UK’s Net figures, you have not provided any comparable figures for the rest of the EU and are once again trying to mis-represent. I have given you gross for the EU and for the UK you have only given net for the UK not for the EU.
Is that so hard for your poor little mind to understand?
So Blugalf, stop trying to massage statistics. If you want to discuss intelligently then present all of your stats in an equal manner. This means as you cannot provide a net budget for the EU that you either use gross or you compare the nets of all EU Members, It’s called mathematics and is something we in the UK know how to use.
TBH I don’t know what country you come from but I hope they do not let you out. I also severely doubt that you know much about either the UK or Germany.
“Blugalf with you continued mis-use of stats I find your intelligence level quite boring.”
No misuse anywhere; but I understand what you’re saying. I’ll try to tone it down.
“You presented a link solely to the UK’s Net figures, ”
No, the summary is fairly complete actually – gross contribution, rebate, EU reinvestment in UK, remaining net contribution.
“you have not provided any comparable figures for the rest of the EU ”
No indeed, and just how would that pertain to the problem at hand? It’s the UK that’s going to exit. What we’re talking about here is how that would impact EU budget. No more payments UK->EU, no more payments EU->UK. So subtract the difference of the two from current budget, and voilà. Easy as pie.
“and are once again trying to mis-represent. ”
Not really, no – if there’s anyone here misrepresenting, warping simple facts, and delivering hollow rants, it’s you.
“I have given you gross for the EU and for the UK you have only given net for the UK not for the EU.
Is that so hard for your poor little mind to understand?”
Please rephrase, your coherence is fading.
“So Blugalf, stop trying to massage statistics. If you want to discuss intelligently then present all of your stats in an equal manner. This means as you cannot provide a net budget for the EU that you either use gross or you compare the nets of all EU Members, It’s called mathematics and is something we in the UK know how to use.
TBH I don’t know what country you come from but I hope they do not let you out. I also severely doubt that you know much about either the UK or Germany.”
Hm, not sure how to even respond to that jibber jabber. Probably the most concise answer covering all of it is that you’re wrong on all accounts.
Where I’m from is completely irrelevant here.
There is no need to massage anything. It’s all there, and it’s all very straight forward, for those willing to understand it at least.
I know both countries fairly well actually. Whether you believe that or not is entirely up to you.
The way I see it, that sort of thing isn’t even mathematics. It’s secondary-level arithmetic. Why don’t you try and master that first.
There is no ‘net budget’. There is a budget. Members pay in some, and they get some out. Those who get out less than they pay in are called net contributors. Those who get out more than they pay in are called net recipients.
I don’t know what to make of all this. Danny Boy and Blugalf the Grey…I leave you alone for a couple of days and I find you are having a deep and meaningful relationship. (or getting spiteful as my ex-wife would call it) You are both arguing over your own interpretation of stats. Lets face it whatever stats that come out of any of the EU countries are guaranteed to be wrong. All financial stats are already reinterpreted to show the pre-decided position. Look at any year end company accounts. By getting bogged down in this stuff is to miss the bigger picture. In others words we all start from a belief that the EU is a Good or not a Good and we proceed from there. It will all come down to how we see the position of the UK in the world for the next Lifetime. The economics will change over that period but will still remain trivial. The EU is having an identity crisis and so is the UK. Not for the first time the UK will need to decide what influence it wishes to have over the development of this continent. Hopefully a positive one if it stays in but at best none at all if it leaves.
Now be good and make up. You two have already made more valid contributions to this debate than any other contributors. Change your game and don’t get so bogged down. I for one have learned a great deal from both of you. Thanks.
You’re welcome Fintail, see what happens when you leave the kids alone :)
Just object to Gross EU budget figures being used against Net UK contributions as this is not like for like and therefore quite misleading. Especially as he does not provide any net for any other countries (and of course no net exists for the EU budget). Ergo you have to compare net with net which is where Blugalf failed or deliberately tried to mislead.
But at least he now admits that there is “no net EU budget” simple logic and intelligence then says that you have to compare net with net or give examples of other member state net contributions because all receive rebates or handouts the biggest to countries such as France through CAP which was why the UK get a rebate.
And jsut
“Just object to Gross EU budget figures being used against Net UK contributions as this is not like for like and therefore quite misleading. Especially as he does not provide any net for any other countries (and of course no net exists for the EU budget). Ergo you have to compare net with net which is where Blugalf failed or deliberately tried to mislead.
But at least he now admits that there is “no net EU budget” simple logic and intelligence then says that you have to compare net with net or give examples of other member state net contributions because all receive rebates or handouts the biggest to countries such as France through CAP which was why the UK get a rebate.”
Honestly, I’m somewhat in the dark here as to what exactly it is you don’t understand or, rather, pretend not to understand. It’s all plain as day, no mislead to be seen anywhere – and no need whatsoever to rant and bring up other members, France and CAP and what have you. What are you after, anyhow? Cover up, denial?
Is there even a point in rephrasing it? This gross-net comparison makes sense for an EU member only. Once the UK is no longer a member, it won’t contribute any more, and it won’t get anything back any more. The hole the UK will leave in the budget is the difference between the two… please try to tell me in honest plain words, what is it you don’t get about this?
Blugalf are you really that dense.
You gave a % contribution of the UK against the EU’s overall budget. You based this on the EU’s gross budget (which we agree is the only one that exists) and compared this to the UK’s Net budget.
These are two very different figures.
You then pretended that other countries do not also get money out of the EU to create their Net figures.
So let me explain as I would to a 4 year old. If we have 10 children who all put in 10 chocolate bars then we have a gross of 100 chocolate bars. Each child has put in 10% of the gross. If then each child gets 3 chocolate bars back each they have still put in 10% each, you could not say “Johnny got 3 bars back so he only put in 7%” ignoring the fact that the other 9 received back 3 each also.
Does this explain it to your simple mind?
BTW look forward to seeing the calc for the UK’s Calculation as a gross percentage of the EU’s budget. Perhaps you can even add the figures.
delightful. by all means let’s do it the kindergarden way, if that’s more within your horizon. Not that the result is going to be any different, and not that it’s going to convince you either, since you /dont want/ to understand it.
Righto… so there’s your 10 kids, each of which chips in some cookies for the kitty bowl. Some put in more cookies than others.
Altogether, there are 100 cookies. That’s your budget – i’m glad you finally admit it – , that’s what you have available, now it’s time to redistribute that among the kids. They don’t all receive the same number of cookies, some get more out of the bowl than others.
Once they’re all munching, you have no cookies left. Budget spent.
100 in, 100 out, you’re short none.
Fairly clear so far?
Ok so next year, one kid leaves the group. Doesn’t want to play anymore.
That kid usally put in 10 cookies and got 5 out.
So, you’ve only got 90 cookies now you can redistribute.
But, for all the 9 remaining kids to all get the same number of cookies as in the year before, you’d need 95.
You’re short 5.
Out of 95.
That’s the dent in the budget that one kid left.
That’s all we’re f’ing talking about here. Yeah, it’s that obvious and that simple.
Now you do the bloody percentage. I better give you the solution though, its 5.26%.
I’d ask you to meditate your very own words, and what they mean in this context,
“try replacing 13.49%!!”
But I know it’s useless. You’ll keep on quibbling and pettifogging like a Flat Earth adherent or creationist. But just to cut you short on the most obvious point, your “13.49%” in the above quote are equivalent to 10% in the, eh, “cookie example”.
Blugaff
You are either stupid or deliberately playing the dunce.
My example pointed out that just because someone got back something before the rest was divid up does not reduce their gross contribution as a percentage of a gross budget.
Unfortunately you will do anything you can to deny this because it screws your pathetic original example up (which was wrong anyhow) that the UK contributed on 5% of the EU budget when it is in fact 13.49%.
What can I say you must work for the EU with your false representation and lies.
This is your claim: “try replacing 13.49%!!”
You really are completely undisturbed by facts, arent you. For the last god knows how many posts I have proven to you, over and over again, beyond a shred of doubt, why this figure you claim is bullshít. And why it doesnt bloody matter what the uk gross contribution is. Stop moving the goalpost! What we’re discussing here is how Brexit would impact the EU budget, nothing else!
If we replaced the entire UKs gross contribution, EU expenditure would go up! Are you really so unbelievably daft as not to understand this?
Answer me this, do the maths: how much less money could the EU spend after Brexit if noone else paid in more to compensate? Just how much would we have to replace? Then compare this with your claim.
You are th one being wilfully stupid here Blugalf.
The EU has a total budget, out of this comes all rebates (the UK is not the only one to receive these), grants etc. Adding the rebate back for the UK does not increase the EU’s total budget, nor does subtracting any rebate reduce the UK’s Gross Contribution of 13.49% to a Gross EU Budget.
Are you that pathetic that you cannot understand that Gross means Total?
As per usual, you’re sidetracking. You haven’t answered my question.
Answer me this, do the maths: how much less money could the EU spend after Brexit if noone else paid in more to compensate? Just how much would we have to replace? Then compare this with your claim.
I now here that Labour have changed their mind on the EU, what a surprise, they tell us they did not know that the British public felt that way,, well goodness me, how quick politicians can change their minds to suit the prevailing winds; trust them, never. As for the Tories, let’s see if we get a genuine vote of in or out or a crafty questionnaire to direct us to remain in. For me, I repeat myself, we can trade with the EU but no control by them at all, for me that is a common sense and simple idea. However, I do not have faith in the British electorate especially the modern generation who have no idea of Britain’s history and heritage and the world Britain made for them.
If the Conservatives take Britain out of the EU it would be poetic justice as they took Britain into this EEC, EC then the final step EU.
You’ll be up against endless pro-EU propaganda and scaremongering tactics like ‘a bazillion jobs will disappear if out of the EU’ and ‘the economy will decline 1124% if out of the EU’.
The EU-ites are fond of assigning the effects of trade to the EU. And they are, of course, wrong, as trade does not depend on the EU or the membership thereof. Apparently, they never heard of the WTO.
The WTO cannot force the EU to free trade.
It has limited power.
Besides the US hates this Brexit so they will pull the WTO and IMF strings to punish you.
I personally want UK to leave, if only to get rid of the constant whining the 3 stooges ( marcel, paul, tarqin ) have bombarded us with.
The rubbish you come out with Limbidis.
1. WTO has precedent over EU in world trade, it cannot force the EU to trade but it can stop illegal barriers.
2. The EU exports more to the UK than the UK exports to EU, so the EU needs our trade, ergo barriers would hurt you more.
3. Please give proof that the US hates a Brexit.
4. US is one member of WTO and IMF they cannot pull it’s strings
“history and heritage and the world Britain made for them.”
Hahaha. Time to meander back to the old people’s home. But wait, let’s not be harsh. There’s the US, after all also something like a former GB colony, to clear up the mess GB left all over the world drawing borders with a ruler and putting in the ground stones for so many conflicts festering today.
Be proud of your personal achievements, but think carefully before before the plumes of national debt on your head.
Blugalf,
Correction not worried but scared or bitter.
HERE ARE THE FACTS from the House of Commons Briefing Paper to MP’s and Ministers 21 May 2015
Various attempts have been made to estimate the cost to the UK
economy of EU regulation. …….. estimated in Government Impact
Assessments at £58.6 billion a year
Wow that would make an impact on debt don’t you think?
So, everyone, and I respect all of your comments on the EU, what do Britons get in return for paying the EU £55,000,000 “A DAY”. if you know, I would like to see an itemised inventory, also the same for all that money we pay them, where is that going?
Even /iff/ the UK’s net contribution were currently at UKP 19.6bn per year, which it is not (more in the order of UKP 10bn rather), that would amount to about 2,5% UK’s public expenditure in 2014,15. It would also amount to less than 1% of the UKs absolute GDP.
So really you shouldn’t hope for a drastic budget relief or lots of extra money for the, hehe, “indigenous” once the UK’s out. And don’t for a moment believe “all the polish” or what have would disappear at once either. /pacta sunt servanda/, if you care for a five dollar word.
As for returns, that’s not quite how it works. It’s a long-term project, this EU thing, economically and politically – not a fixed-interest deposit. Those who aren’t happy with the way these things work out – should leave. Those who still believe they were tricked into anything should perhaps re-read the very first sentence of the “Treaty Establishing the European Community”, 1957:
“Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,”
etc.
Blugalf,
Sound like your getting worried :)
HERE ARE THE FACTS from the House of Commons Briefing Paper to MP’s and Ministers 21 May 2015
EU Budget 142.6bn (2014)
UK Contribution 19.234bn (2014)
UK Contribution Percentage 13.49%
“Sound like your getting worried :)”
Uh huh. Hearing what you’d love to hear? Adjust your earpiece and rest assured, I do in all likelihood pay more into the EU than you do. I certainly am no UK resident either, god forbid. And even you must have noticed that I’m all for the Brexit.
Worried, yes actually. The worry being that the UK may actually stay in and keep whining indefinitely :D
Blugalf,
Many of the posts you put down suggest that you want the UK to stay as you always paint a poor future for the UK if it left and suggest that we are not important to Europe so would not affect it if we left.
As for contributing more than me I severely doubt it. I am a director and major shareholder in a rather large fragrance retailer which sells throughout Europe (and yes I do support leaving). So my tax bill probably is more than your annual income, unless of course like myself you are in the 1%.
I have looked closely at this issue and do not perceive any significant adverse barriers to a UK exit and continuing trade. I have also taken into account the EU’s ongoing interference within our industry forcing changes to decade old formulas, replacing natural ingredients such as lavender with chemical composites; this has a significant affect both on notes and silage of many classics and I object to this.
If the Conservative Party took Britain out of the EU it would be poetic justice because it was this party that took Britain into the EEC, EC then the final step the EU. As for Labour they should be ashamed that they followed the Conservatives with signing more treaties to the Lisbon Treaty. All the treaties were and still are detrimental to our Country.
So, Road Rage, you say British people are not European, If not ,what then? Asians? Or maybe Africans?
I’m from in commonwealth country,, and am allowed to vote this referendum, before I vote I want to know about my living because I have been granted leave to remain (article 8) bec of family, am wondering if I vote yes, this law will effect me.
Ahmed, Commonwealth citizenship and leave to stay has nothing to do with the EU, except if we leave the EU we will once again be in a position to remove this stupid maximum migration level now applied against people from the Commonwealth
I suspect the main issue for Britons is the idea of giving up much of our sovereignty to a federal Europe. The concept of free trade for European nations is great and every member can benefit from it, however the common market has grown into a federal state which Britain is unlikely to ever want to be part of. There is little commonality between European nations. To be successful the countries in the European Community needed to be in similar fiscal, social and developmental growth but actually many of the countries are not. The EC has come about too soon and many citizens now with the freedom to move freely within Europe look to the most successful states to move too and the most generous benefits systems to claim from. No individual state can afford this. Britain cannot afford the financial cost of propping up states that are not ready nor can it bear the loss of national sovereignty. Either the EC reforms or the British public will choose to leave.
“Either the EC reforms or the British public will choose to leave.”
Then “british public” will not recognize anything Cameron can possibly come up as the “reform” they want, thus leave. So be it. There’s no way the fundamental principles will be sacrificed on the altar of one nation’s crankiness.
The fundamental principle Blugalf was, before 2004/38/EC, the Freedom of Movement of Workers not of people nor of economic migrants.
But even this directive stated limits:
“For stays of over three months: the right of residence is subject to certain conditions. EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay”
This is where we need to get back to
“Freedom of Movement of Workers not of people […]”
Sorry, couldn’t help but smirk at that. And I thought I was a neo-liberal asrehole by today’s standards.
“This is where we need to get back to”.
Help me out here. So there’s that EU directive that says, among other things,
“The right of residence for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions.”
Precisely what is stopping the UK from enforcing those conditions? As other countries do? Now when you say “need to get back to”, whom exactly are you addressing?
What is stopping the UK is ECJ judgements which do not allow the UK to treat EU migrants differently from its own Nationals. Thought you would have known that.
“What is stopping the UK is ECJ judgements which do not allow the UK to treat EU migrants differently from its own Nationals.”
Which judgements, exactly?
ECJ case C-68/89 Commission v Netherlands [1991] for example
You could also use Com(2009)313 final in relation to Article 3, this changes the agreed understanding on 2204/38/EC when agreed
Then you could rely on Orfanopoulos and Oliveri
“ECJ case C-68/89 Commission v Netherlands [1991] for example
You could also use Com(2009)313 final in relation to Article 3, this changes the agreed understanding on 2204/38/EC when agreed
Then you could rely on Orfanopoulos and Oliveri”
Which of these cases has any significance whatsoever in addressing the question why the UK, as of now, is allegedly required to grant benefits to EU migrants a) in contradiction to the actual wording of the directive, and b) in a mode that differs from that required of other EU members?
Each one of these do not allow the UK to treat their nationals differently from EU migrants. You would know that if you read them.
“You would know that if you read them.”
You’re answering a question I didn’t ask you. Let me try again:
Which of these cases has any significance whatsoever in addressing the question why the UK, as of now, is allegedly required to grant benefits to EU migrants a) in contradiction to the actual wording of the directive, and b) in a mode that differs from that required of other EU members?
I hope the Brits don’t stay in.
The worst case scenario is a scrape-through Yes.
Then within 10 years they’ll realize it’s not actually what they want either; naturally, because fundamentally it’s not the “EU” they’re really unhappy with. Most of them only have a very vague idea about it anyway.
As I said before, Brits, get the oars out and start paddling! The only way to get out of Yurp.
“fundamentally it’s not the “EU” they’re really unhappy with”
So what is it that they are not happy with then?
Sigh…..here we go again, I will say this only once…again. “I voted for a Common Market” and nothing else. I voted Tory because I did not want labour in power; but support UKIP…I am now 110 percent UKIP and will do my utmost to persuade everyone else to vote for them, this is the era of the social network; there was none when we voted Common Market and the Establishment were in total control, the internet has wiped that off the map, social media; the internet, your best friend or your worst enemy…..the Crusade goes on….GET OUT OF THE EU or face becoming SLAVES.
And is Britain in EU? Britain has so many opt outs from EU integration, so there are doubts it is still a member of the EU
Hello Radka, if this is the case, then all of the British people are not aware of any opt outs.
Jim,
We have many opt outs as do other countries. However some of these and a large proportion of the rebate were given away by Blair on the understanding that the EU would revise CAP, this never happened. So like the current negotiations the EU is just likely to lie to get the UK’s agreement
How many times will you ask the same question. …..
How many times will I ask the same question?….. as many times as it takes to “GET THE JOB DONE”.
Βritain never became member of E.U. REALLY.
.
The British people have already left the EU, we are just waiting for our politicians to sort out the paperwork.
https://www.facebook.com/betteroffout/photos/a.534095619938860.137652.128914090457017/1099102116771538/?type=1&theater
Warum nicht, wenn sie wollen
.
Could I suggest you ask a different question on the same theme?
Maybe:
Who will make up the shortfall in the EU budget ‘when Great Britain leaves the EU’ ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11255493/UK-faces-34bn-bill-for-blackhole-in-EU-budget.html
Ivan,
Actual figures from the House of Commons Briefing Paper to MP’s and Ministers 21 May 2015
EU Budget 142.6bn (2014)
UK Contribution 19.234bn (2014)
UK Contribution Percentage 13.49%
I am voting to stay in.
If England doesn’t want to became another Greece please stay in the EU.
How would that make us another Greece, the UK does not use the EURO
I am voting YES to remain an EU member.
Noooooo
Nevereer
yEEEEEEEEEEsss!
Why Afonso?
No, no, no!
Yes, out!
Υes. Let that beast named EU collapse
Yes, and then it should become like Israel. Claim everyone around it is evil, and start shooting kids and people. http://www.fixxi.net/fixxi-book-introduction-to-fixxi-neuro-state-programming
Pathetic comment
Yes
Then united not more united and i hope ppl will like it after all
disband the EU as in Reality Its Not a Union of Nations that work together in harmony and prosperity for all.
No!
Yes
If Britain wants to remain an independent country and not the servants of Germans they must leave the soonest..
Lately loads of negativity about EU in press so its vampirising ppl, I like idea to be united all world should be one big united place
Would be a mistake, both parts are to suffer from such a chaotic mess that they think to plunge into! I would strongly advise to inform the broad people of UK about the advantages and disadvantages of being here and how things would look if they are to stand alone from a point on!
Britain is not alone has the alliance of the us. Britain does not need the EU.. The opposite holds.. This stupid propaganda which creates fear is totally false..
Britain has to remain an international hub of investment. This cannot happen under the German – sorry I meant the EU – hierarchy ..
12 workhours and then public press at evening about how bad everyone around you. It makes fruits after all, uk prime minister didn’t liked foreigners from beginning, so it was question how he will get it possible
Britain was never a eurozone member, in the Euro. Just in the EU the European Union. Why does Britain want to leave, or stay? Decide!
Yes. Asap.
I am portuguese and I am living and working in the uk. I have eard several times the brits saying “us and the europeans” when refering to the EU.
Yes, free way. End of London City capital investing in Europe, bye bye good luck :)
Why are there so many posts about ”Should >this country< leave the EU'' ? Shouldn't we be discussing on how to improve the state in which the EU is in? Shouldn't we discuss how old minded the EU policy is and how its members focus more on their own interests, regardless of the effect on the smaller members, instead of actually working together ?
I’d say let them vote for it. The reelection of the Cons means they will get their referendum. Once that is done, we will know what the people of the UK want. If they leave the EU as a result, I can’t say I’ll be happy about it, but it’s their decision, we (the EU) will need to start treating them like we treat Norway and Switzerland. If they stay, then perhaps this debate won’t come up again for at least a generation.
yes, of course, because it would solve all the UK problems, like high prices of education, unemployment, poverty, even environment, actually, it’s proved that outside EU there are double of sunny days: it’s a fact. Think in Caribbean islands or Africa: they are no EU and has a lot of sun, it’s obvious that there must be a correlation.
xDD
No
Usually wenn things go bad in own pot, politicians change topics to make believe that someone else is a problem
No
It helps to hide something else I guess
It is a voluntary association. If the UK believes it is not in their interest, why would they stay? But the question should be posed to the British people.
No Brexit – nor Grexit . We just cant let Germans do whatever they want in the EU
can she afford it?
From House of Commons Briefing Paper for MP’s and Ministers 21st May 2015.
Various attempts have been made to estimate the cost to the UK
economy of EU regulation….. estimated in Government Impact
Assessments at £58.6 billion a year
What do you think?
Out its like fifa CORRUPT !
Its for the british ppl to decide if u aint british your opinions dont matter !
Let us just get out of the EU
this EU,? jes jesterday.
Yes , time to go
It is a controversial issue. On the one hand, i am voting yes, due to..why brussels may control the UK? In addition in the EU each nation is dangerous to be evanesced. EU is the globalization. On the other hand if the UK can change and transform EU in different topics, like immigration from non european countries(islamic states) and generally to gain more freedoms from each state separatelly, then UK has to stay in the EU.
Yes definitely
Britain might have been member of the EU… But the City of London?
http://yournewswire.com/secret-city-a-film-about-the-city-of-london-and-the-corporation-that-runs-it/
yes
Hell YES …….!
Not one of them has been elected they cldnt beat us in two world wars now they tryin this economic way their books have never been signed off wake up its all corrupt !
Britains are quite controversial, EU will manage very well without them. To be a member of EU require to be a serious partner.
Very true Liliana The UK has many opt-outs and has to decide whether to leave or to become a full active member including Euro and losing opt-outs.
The only reason the UK wants out of the EU is to allow further workers rights erosion and further protection for the banking industry.
Proof please
We have an incredibly unrepresentative FPTP voting system which means the Cameron’s government has a majority despite having the support of only 24% of the eligible electorate from an election campaign of fear, misinformation and media manipulation. The result of our EU referendum will be subject to the same influences. Already, Cameron is undemocratically limiting who will be able to vote on this- predictably all the restrictions appear to be on those who would vote against the wishes of his party.
Please don’t think that his authoritarian, right-wing ideology is representative of what the British people want. 76% of us are suffering under this government and are fearful of what the future holds as we stand to lose the very rights which protect us from totalitarian fascist governments.
If anything, we are relying on the rest of Europe to support the British people and by holding Cameron’s corrupt government to account before it’s too late for us.
Tommy, Personally I agree that no person who is not a UK Citizen, and resident in the country should have a vote on this issue. If people living in the EU want to vote then they need to show a commitment to the UK (as it is an in/out ref) and take up UK Citizenship.
Of course, everyone should leave the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation
If Engerland , Ireland and Wales want to leave let them leave. If Scotland wants to stay then we shall stay.
If the Union leaves, the Union leaves
P.S. hear Swinney wants Fiscal Management but the safety net of the Barnett Formula (2 cakes)
Hear Salmond Scotland should be protected by the UK from falls in oil price (2 cakes again)
Noooooo
IN A BALLOON?
Yes ,in!
We need out ASAP. Being in the Common Market is a good thing which is what was voted for. This EU State is not what was voted for and costs the public over £20b per year to be a member.
Better for us to be out make our own rules run our own country our way .
We survived for thousands of years without the Eu. In fact we fought most of them over the centuries. Less than 50% of our trade is with Europe and some of the countries big businessmen have said we would be fine by ourselves. There is a big world out there we could trade with so let’s get out before they do decide to have an European army and closer political union. The Eu is the most corrupt organisation in the world, the accounts have not been signed off for about twenty years.
Yes as soon as possible.
We all should leave the EU: the promising project is completely hijacked by greedy Big Finance and Big Corp.
NO!
We need to remain part of the EU community. The Tories want to demolish the Human Rights Act and anything and everything that is in place to help the poor and vulnerable in this country, and they have removed legal aid so the poor cannot legally challenge anything, soon the EU laws are all working people will have left to protect them. The Tories don’t want ordinary people to have legal protection. Imports and exports are far cheaper within the EU as we do not pay duties which is why most intelligent businesses want to stay in Europe. This rubbish about being governed by Germany, immigration and the budget is nothing but a smoke screen being pushed by the Tory press. Less than 6% of immigrants claim benefits and less than 12% of the UK’s laws come from Europe. Leaving Europe will also destabilise our security. I could go on and on about the benefits of staying in which far outway leaving.
Melanie, how did the Uk survive for hundred’s of years before 1998 and the HRA? Common Law and Precedent, that protected citizens well enough and stopped abuse by terrorists, foreign criminals etc
The EU runs a trade surplus witht he UK so they would be unlikely to put barriers in place as it would hurt their members (especially Germany) more than the UK. So prices would be unlikely to rise
The House of Commons briefing notes place UK laws effected by EU Directives and Regulations at over 70%.
So you were saying?
No
Out
Eaxh country MUST come out of this SOVIET-€u! No freedom, no democracy, no souverainity. €u is a dead man walking.
If EU means more and more immigrands from Africa I assume that all countries should leave EU…
Has Debating Europe run out of thread topics already? I swear we already had one on the UK leaving a few weeks back.
Didn’t Debating Europe already pose this question earlier?
Yes, please! Somehow, somebody to present that there is something wrong in the EU!
Yes we need to get out we will save billions that can be spent here
We should all leave the EU as we know it. It needs a profound orverhaul or it needs to end. It is a hinderance for its citizens, works for the interest of others other than its citizens. A complete fraud. Where one state, Germany, has the leading part. It should not be this way. And the EU commission, another fraud not elected by citizens. Who pass policies no citizen voted on. The EU needs a working system as that of the USA. Where parties present themselves for election as one for entire EU and not have different parties from different countries. Thats why in the end, Europeans voted center right wing and have commissioners promoting left wing progressive policies, because they come from progressive left wing parties. It is utterly worthless.
The working class of this country should remember as long as we have open borders your wages will be suppressed the last 10 years has proved that
Yes!
If they were stupid enough to vote conservative, they’re stupid enough to leave the EU. I live in a country of ignorant suicidal morons.
Better than Liebour and their policy of giving everything to lazy do-nothings.
This sit is not working tried to vote to leave it looked up
I’m voting to leave the eu dictatorship
NO, Hell NO
Not a question a must
Yes!!! as soon as possible.
Let’s get out as soon as possible.
No
HUMOUR (maybe). The nazy failed to conquer UK with the army. I hope ukeiaaan people (there a word for it?) will be smart enough to avoid the new German Rei…. cof cof cough
i mean European Leadership u.u
buuu deutsh bad doitch! a cuccia!
the problem is not the medium german inhabitant, the problem lies in that fancy people working in the megatoweeers in brussels who are still trying to “make europe” (yeah yeah believe it..) instead of making the european.
I love european (mostly), i wanna be part of something bigger than my own country and share my valour with a greater number of people BUT!
BUT!
who is leading who where?
DID YOU, IN PERSON, VOTE FOR SOMEONE WHO AS REAL POWER IN EUROPE?
And i don’t mean the euparlament (which has no power) i mean the president and the commission..
Do you still believe european mean something for the EU government?
We are number, at best. for their interest. Local variety? local valour? product? culture? doesn’t mean shit for thoose people up there.
yop!
Yes yes yes. We are not in the EU. Why do we pay more for car insurance holiday insurance. Road tolls. What could we buy for 55milllion a day. We have immigrants in our street in new houses never worked taxi every where and a new car. And loads of ASB. They never came to work they came for the quote (soft ENGLISH).
If we are all in it together why does this great union insist on virtually bankrupting little old Greece with extortionate rates of interest.
Debt creates wealth. Why lend 1.8 billion to Ukraine not in the eu at a fraction of the cost that Greece has to struggle to pay. Its all about control.
If immigration is so good for the economy why are all the struggling eu countries not screamimg out for more ??
The Bank of England ia doing a study into the possible consequences of leaving because they do not know. No one really knows not even the so called intelligent businesses. Most footsie 100 Company bosses are in favour of leaving.
Scaremongering about the human rights act is pathetic, its about stopping the abuse of the act by some of the worst criminals and no sane person can deny this happens.
As it stands I’m voting to leave, Cameron will have to to come up with something very special for me to change my mind
Undecided .
YES THE END !
Yes
Yes We have paid in over 100 billion pounds over and above what we have got back. What is our supposed benefit for this one way traffic. Now we will have a vote at last.
it doesn’t really seem to be in their interest
You’re right Max it is not in our interest to stay
I don’t think anyone should be allowed to vote in a referendum about leaving the EU unless they can pass an exam about the EU based on FACT rather than the lies and propaganda read in papers like the Daily Mail.
We would also need to get rid of the lies told in the Pro-EU Media and those told by politicians such a Nick Clegg who in debates has given information he knew was false as he was in receipt of EU briefings carried out by HoC Economic Specialist strictly for MP’s and Ministers. We would also need to remove the lies told in two EU sponsored reports (The CReAM Reports) which were debunked by peer review in 2013 and 2015 as lacking credibility and ignoring adverse statistics
Yes leave asap
No
Definitely out, I want to see Great Britain great again and it won’t happen whilst we remain in the EU.
OK, all you anti EU posters , lets get a big dose of Realpolitik. Since European integration began (back with the Coal and Steel treaties after WW2). then there have been how many multi-national European conflicts ? Ummmm, None, Nada, Zero, Zilch. And that’s in 70 years. Before that ? WW1 to WW2 ? 21 years. Franco-Prussian War to WW1 ? 43 years. Crimean to Franco-Prussian ? 16 years. Napoleonic War to Crimean ? 38 years. Seven Years War ? War of the Austrian Succession ? War of the Spanish Succession ? The list is agonisingly, and terrifyingly long. The EU has provided an environment in which the countries of Europe can co-operate and flourish without killing their populations on grounds of nationalism. There is NO greater argument in favour of union in Europe. NONE.
Steve,
Hmmmm ever heard of NATO or Nuclear Weapons, that is the main game change and why MoD advisors and politicians say we need to maintain such weapons and our role within NATO over any EU Army.
P.S. Remind me about Ukraine and EU interference at the outset?
No !!!!!
Yes , they are bad seed for Europe ! They are USA ‘a allies who wants to destroy Europe !
We should never have joined fuckin tory slime bag heath
Yes they should. Europe no longer interested in Britain or Ireland as we no longer have anything to offer Europe. Hopefully once Britain leave Ireland will follow
Im voting to LEAVE the EU.
In
what european union!?
Yes no brainer
Europeans now look at the EU like a sort of monstruos empire ruled by Germany(and they are not so wrong). To me, a European Union without UK is meaningless, I don’t want a sort of continental revival of the Holy Roman Empire, i’m italian and I love british culture but I understand their fears and also the fears of all the other european citizens. Historically, the britons never felt so “europeans” at all, the continent has always been seen as the cruel absolutist beast(with german or french accent) willing to invade britain and enslave the free-born english people. Apart from that now it seems(not just for the brits) that if the EU ceases to exist would be better for everyone and the economy would restart to grow up. I don’t think so; of course I don’t support all the undemocratic and autoritary aspects of Bruxelles but I think that a united Europe is our future and that we are stronger together than divided. Europe is born in an unlucky time, in a global crisis, with no identitary foundation myth(it makes a great difference between us and the USA, they are suffering the crisis, their poverty stats are awful but they will never think of breaking out everything), and maybe, starting with the UK, with the nationalists(even italians) blaming Bruxelles even if it’s rain, the EU will collapse. I hope to be wrong, but when we will face the real “economic enemies”(China, Russia, Japan, USA, Brazil, India) I think we’ll feel like children in front of giants with our minds living in the glorious european past(XIX cent.) discovering that the world has changed since that, and perhaps it will be too late to unite again. I dream for a Great United Europe and I hope this is not the beginning of the end.
As a british journalist wrote on an article: “We should fix it, not nix it.”
Best comment I’ve read on here. Definitely agree that everyone as an EU citizen should start pressuring more for greater influence in EU matters and that as a Union we are stronger!
SPER SA NU O FACA!
Lol EU is shit my country Portugal should leave it as well
Only if it is to submit to greater corruption and incompetence of our politicians and to further economic crisis leading to greater involvement of the IMF.
Yes..they always wanted extras and did more disturb..Get out..!!
Actually we have always given more than every other except Germany based on Net Figures.
Who do we trade with if we opt out? Because other nations like Australia, newzealand, America, and many Asian, African, and European countries ply their Trade within the EU, Forget all this go it alone, the truth is we need the EU.
Richard The EU accounts for somewhere between 35%-40% of our trade once the Rotterdam Effect is taken into account. IN fact the UK runs an overall Trade Surplus with the Rest of the World but a 79% Trade Deficit with EU countries.
So you see we already trade very well with the rest of the world and the EU need our trade more than we need their’s this means
1) No Trade Barriers as it would hurt the EU and Germany more than the UK
2) A quick preferential Trade Agreement as they need our market
3) The ability to make better, more suited, Trade Agreements with the Rest of the World
So the truth is the EU needs us Richard
Back in the early 70s, my parents voted on joining a common market, no subsequent generation has ever been consulted regarding the empire building that followed. So much for democracy. The theory of the European Union is great, but the cosy political elite pressed ahead with their vision of “ever closer union” so impatiently and underhandedly that they have subsequently heaped misery upon millions of European citizens without any hint of remorse. That is not something which the average Englishman tolerates easily. We will never be permitted to leave the EU now, but David Cameron’s desire for reform is just the start . We are the cuckoo in the nest and even mighty Germany is no more than Goliath was to the shepherd boy David. Churchill once said of his people “Still as Saxon slow in starting. Still as weirdly want to win.” He was right. The elite Brussels old boys may yet wish that they had let us leave.
Your parents were still lucky that they got to vote. Not all countries held referendums on the matter. The change from EEC to EU was a natural one and even without the change of name things might have progressed this way as everything is interconnected.
The Brussels elite that you so eloquently put it is made of politicians of all European countries. It seems the only country who suffers from the EU is the UK, for this maybe blame your politicians lack of involvement/interest in EU politics and maybe your press for the lack of coverage regarding EU issues. The UK people chose to be part of this Community Now you’re unhappy cause your politicians either weren’t able to be of influence or they simply steered the UK into this without peoples consent. No one forced you to this a p part maybe your own politicians.
Out asap our grandparents fought to keep Germany out of Britain, and us silly buggers hand it over to them,and pay them to do it
It is a fact that anyone who votes to stay in the EU are committing TREASON the only crime that still has the death sentence, and not just by hanging, but then cut into 4 pieces.
england YES …. scotland, walles will stay in eu …. north irland will be and is part of republic of irland and eu …. :)
what a silly response
Britain isn’t in anyway.
We should leave
Yes
EU has promoted peace and stability through integration
More likely NATO and Nuclear Options
Sim é rápido
Leave and quick
Yes and No ! Certainly their is life outside EU but I can’t imagine Europe without England…
It’s a sham! Pushed up prices everywhere bad for lazy tourism and especially puts up food prices….has huge waste and very inefficient a laugh considering it’s German run…owned….it’s a dictatorship hub…what was ww2 for? …
Yes Greeks have a clear case for greek money artifacts stolen with added interest from the SS quantification it is another story….
OUT. NOW.
Yes,Switzerland is not part of EU,and it’s economy is the envy of Europe.England will still trade with the World,it does’t depend upon the EU for survival.
ITS UP TO THE BRITS TO DECIDE! Otherwise would be to impose on them!
England can leave if it wants.Scotland is staying !!!!
Scotland is part of the Union so if we leave we leave together, you lost your referendum
It’s a YES from me.
Yes leave
NO!
They should at least give UK citizens elsewhere in the EU, who left exercising their Treaty rights, the chance to vote!
I would agree with that
It either has to become a proper, full member or leave. No á la carte menus, please
This is exactly what I have been saying. Regardless of whether Cameron gets anything back now we need to realise that a Yes to stay in the EU means that at some time in the future we will have to accept closer political union, the loss of sovereignty, replacing Sterling with the Euro etc. There cannot be a two tier EU long term
Out
Yes out .out .
Yes, get us out!
Yes out
Yes, stay in. Too much to lose being out
Like what?
Yes we shud exit .f..k off europe
No 🇬🇧
In WW2 our grandparents went to war to fight to preserve our way of life. Would they have done the same if you had told them that 70 years later they would be controlled by a European superstate led by germany. NO
Lets go now
No thank you. I don’t want Britain to be part of the EU
YES
Yeah that’s it Christian Weale lets just sell out the memories of our ancestors, without whos efforts and sacrifices you may not even be here. Britain out and onwards and upwards.
NO ! It is very good for Britain and for all of us to be part of EU.
Not according to the House Of Commons briefing to MP’s and Ministers
Yes! Next question x
No !!!!
A year ago I might have said stay in the EU. But because Sturgeon wants us to stay in (greed!) I will now vote to leave
Yes if they so desire why not ? At d end of d day every country has right according to its people wants and aspirations!
Leave the EU.
Not with a balloon
A dont care about britain
becouse at this moment I care how to provide money for my douther education
Britain an EU is not on my agenda
Out out out
I’m voting OUT OUT OUT.
I don’t think that’s the right question.
No
Everybody should leave the EU.
Open table at all times??
Lets have a democratic vote on this one. Oh sorry i forgot, the eu doesn’t do democracy
Lets go now
Absolutely not, unemployment, businesses going to the wall, price increases of 25%.Sick and tired of Little Englander idiots. Any business exporting to Europe must be horrified on what is happening
Out
I’m Portuguese and…I say NO !!!! That’s enough…
Out
After the labour governments three promises of a referendum, which were all lies, I hope the Conservative
Vote no/out
Continued, government will keep their promise and have a referendum. I will definitely vote to come out. We fought the Germans in two wars to keep them out of England, and now, they’re practically running our our country. Let’s get out as soon as possible.
If UKIP want out, I want in!
Childlike^^^^
Yes get out as soon as possible, we were once a great country, not anymore
And stop looking to Germany for excuses . typical Westminster propaganda
Sometimes you hear story’s about failure being rewarded well Germany is typical. They seem to have more clout than anybody so yes out
OUT ,i find it an insult to be part of europe ,i am BRITISH NOT EUROPEAN
Get out France & Germany is taking the piss the French have short memory’s what the Germans did to them
Stay in but needs change
Out out out
Melanie put the case very well for staying in.
It might be easier to just kick Poland out of the eu lol. Im joking…
Can people explain to me why if we leave we wouldn’t be able to export to Europe.
Steve so you don’t care about or believe national democracy. Ok even if I was to concede that every thing about the eu betters uk shouldn’t the fact there is no national democracy be a valid leaving point.
England should leave, Scotland Ireland and Wales should make their own choices. will be a bit odd though that SNP want complete detachment from parliament, but then want closer ties with Brussells. still, referendum is on its way so good bye to the un elected meddling Eu.
^^^^^amen couldn’t of put it better Matthew
No. It should remain.
Definitely out
Yes without a doubt
Out we have survived bigger events in our history it will hurt a lot of company’s and job equally a he’ll of a lot of people will benefit and the public services will get better
No
No
Out
Out
YES
YES
If the UK leaves the EU then Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland should have the right to leave the UK and become independent countries!
Rwy’n gweld eich pwynt ond a ydych yn meddwl y bydd y Gymraeg byth yn pleidleisio i adael y DU? Yr wyf yn mawr obeithio Nid!
Fel Sais y mae ei dad yn hwyr yn y Gymraeg, byddai’n gas gen i feddwl bod ar ôl 53 mlynedd (fy oedran) yn y mwyafrif helaeth o fy nheulu suddeny eu hystyried fel tramorwyr.
To cut your nose off to spite your face. Now that’s clever then.
If the UK leaves the EU then Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland should have the right to leave the UK and become independent countries!
You’re wrong on this Matthew Felton! If east Europeans like Poland or Hungary didn’t fight th
The Soviet army and the communist system, probably half of so called “west Europe” would be communist now! Just like before, centuries ago when we defended the west from Ottoman Turkish empire with our blood, so that you can prosper! So why do you think Greece or Portugal deserves more rights in E.U. than east Europeans?!
IM OUT…..
Out give me back my country
Don’t ask the general public as they will have no idea.
I love the nationalistic hypocrisy that’s rolling up here. The former Great Britain was great because of its colonies and everything that scavenge from there. If leaving EU is the next big thing in their agenda that will only bring isolation and provocation to the rest of the world to apply “special regime” for British nationals.
What a laugh you are Chris, does it really worry you that much. If the UK leaves the EU then the RWorld will not care, we will still trade with them. In fact the RWorld will benefit as the restrictions on visas from RWorld in preference of EU migrants will disappear (just one of the advantages)
What rubbish. The empire was the first free trade area with the rules that applied at the time competing with the Dutch , French, Spanish and emerging American empires.
I seriously doubt that UK will survive the next couple of decades as a single political entity. Maybe we should ask the same question Scotland, England and Wales separately.
Probably longer than the EU. ROI have indicated that they would review membership if the UK left, Greece is threatening…….
Never should have. Joined. all that money wasted over the decades for little return and lose control of our identity.
We voted to be a member of a free trade group. We did not vote to loose our sovereignty.
Daniel Dimitrov while you are right about the break up of the uk… I seriously doubt the EU will survive the next couple of decades as a single political entity either
Yesterday.
Somebody mentioning “intelligent debate” then off on an “out” (right wing) rant. Reminiscent of the General Election campaign and likely that David Cameron will get another win, not least because the hard-line, right-wing “out” camp lack reasoned argument and discipline
Yes out asap
Germany has the upper hand on Europe and unless Cameron ‘re negotiates our standing in Europe ,then we should leave..we have enough problems with Scotland screwing us…
Disgusting argument . If they want to go …. Bye bye we will choose franch as official lamguage for UE
Think it will end up as Deutsch
Inane comments notwithstanding,
it’ll be English in the foreseeable future.. and why not? It’s just a language. Not the most sophisticated of languages to be sure, but it’ll do the job.
Good and be as dead headed as the French
Yes yes yes
Yes….
Definitely a big yes, out out out
What was wrong with the old EEC?
Stay in EU . Without EU wildlife and environmental laws the Conservatives would destroy everything that I love.
The UK should leave the EU now the so called ‘reforms’ are a pathetic attemt at to fool the UK into staying for us then to realise we are diminished into a state on a larger united states of europe which i do not want an never will
Do we know the real facts about the pros and cons?
Melanie merchant was terry,its people with your attitude,that makes me think we should leave the EU its not very democratic if we need a university degree to vote for in or out ,what next people from council estates and the unemployed banned from national elections ,or only people with your point of view allowed to vote at all.
Am voting out of eu corrupted to their core
It’s quite simple really, if you have a young family and care about the future economic worth of the country vote to stay in the EU. If you don’t care about the future and just want go make sure you have money in your own pocket and say fcuk future generations than vote to get out. Simples. For my family’s sake I hope common sense prevails and we stay in otherwise we’ll be approaching 3rd world country status by the end of my life.
The EU had virtually destroyed the UK. I can’t believe people are debating on what is obviously a corrupt and flawed political union geared to benefit career politicians once voted out of office!
Why should we NOT Do We like being ruled by a DICTATORIAL E U ???👈👎🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
We are the in and a major contributor. But certain things need to change to make things better for all. But we need to stay in or else we will loose out big time.
Amazing mind you, here we are talking about voting “in” or “out”, and yet how many of us truly know all the facts? Are we putting in more than we’re getting out? Many seem to think so, but nobody’s telling. What about the EU accounts? When’s that going to be made known? Have they even submitted them yet? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that Britain is being taken for a ride here. Are we? Who can be trusted to give us the facts, the unvarnished truth? I’ve a nasty suspicion the answer is Nobody, nobody at all.
Totally agree Steve, this is my problem with in or out……
I’m English born and bred do you really think I want a German, Frenchman, Dutchman etc, telling me what to do in my own country. Anyone the least bit patriotic should vote out. Let’s get out before it’s to late.
Leaving the EU would be a massive leap into uncertainty. The UK and other disaffected members have to make it work. We are not the United states of Europe, we have to stop those who are trying to turn us into one.
Burst the ballon
Yes out, Britain is much better without EU.
Yes for sure I voted no the first time we were asked to join the common market . Years of the CFP has destroyed the fishing fleets . Who can reform a system that has never balanced their books . Pathetic !!!
Put the question again for Turkey to join the EU. The Great inheritor of the Ottoman Empire covering the Balkans, The Middle East and Africa. Turkeys membership can bring a lot to Europe.
I am voting NO, we have enough charity cases in the UK , we should get out of this ever demanding European Union
Funny how things have turned was it not so long ago scotland bid for independence and were told “scotland would need to apply to join the EU”and that was one of the many arguments for stay/leave the uk. Now as “part” of the uk we’re now discussing whether to stay or leave the EU like it’s now a bad thing to be part of. Some people need to make up their minds.
Absolutely we should leave the EU
I have no problem with Europe, but I have problems with Maastricht and everything after it. The EU commission is an attack on democracy.
YES
Of course we should the EU is more corrupt than FIFA.The EU after 20 years have still not had their accounts signed off.
Britain leave EU ..yes please and while we are at it England can leave Britain I’m not British I’m English
Yes
most Brits are pretty stupid after all they have a crack head for Chancellor so they will vote yes to out and yes to 3 million jobs going they can always fall back on blaming immigrants for everything when it all goes tits up
Martin,
Afraid you are the stupid one here, 3 million jobs do not rely on trade with the EU. This was an estimate of the number of jobs whose companies dealt with the EU or had dealngs with companis that dealt with the EU; these companies also trading within the UK and other countries worldwide
Yes – yes – yes – leave now !!!!
Yes British should leave
Yes yes yes get out😁
We are bogged down with the rest of the world, most of them don’t like English people,so it’s time to leave
Funny how perceptions flourish. My impression is exactly the opposite.
You would think so from programmes such as the Eurovision but I have found that if that if you try to mix with them, and even attempt their language then Europeans can be very friendly. I think sometimes we let ourselves down with our perception of people we perceive as foreigners
Running a business requires you to submit accounts every year. Why is it the EU have not submitted account since they were set up. Corruption comes to mind.
Roll of 2017 with the big fat yes to get out. lets leave the eu and not end up like Greece. Or if we do stay in tell eu we are bankrupt and high in debt and start getting million spent on UK services :-) and maybe India might start giving UK aid for the food banks and the ex service men on the streets.xx
Roll of 2017 with the big fat yes to get out. lets leave the eu and not end up like Greece. Or if we do stay in tell eu we are bankrupt and high in debt and start getting million spent on UK services :-) and maybe India might start giving UK aid for the food banks and the ex service men on the streets.xx
Yes out sooooooner the better
Yes out sooooooner the better
1.-st important point- E.U.members citizens aren’t claiming housing benefits in large numbers like the asylum seekers from Bangladesh or Africab countries! Polish, Spanish, Italian young people all work and support their families or send money home to support them! What U.K. should consider is to stop housing benefit system for those who didn’t work for a minimum of 2-3 years, than you wouldn’t have all those frauds committed recently by hundreds Bangladeshi people flying to U.K. only for claiming the house benefit! There are Indian, Pakistani landlords who bought up blocks of flats on mortgages just for renting out to housing benefit asylum seekers! That is a millions of pounds corruption business in U.K. and noone is talking about!
Ferenc,
Bangladeshi’s etc are not treated the same as EU citizens. EU citizens get the same rights as UK Citizens whereas those from the rest of the world are limited on their ability to claim. Those entering the UK must have work to go to and must be able to support themselves.
Asylum seekers also get far less than EU Migrants (although the EU is trying to change this and force the UK to take even more)
You are right Polish people do send money home including Child Benefit at UK rates for children living in Poland who would normally receive a fraction of the same amount from their Government.
We need the EU otherwise we are a tiny little island on our own. Just start a new EU and ditch all the nuisance countries (France). The others will follow.
Then we will kick UK permanent residents from France who profit our generous benefits !
Misaki, French Benefits are not that generous, but there again France is not a nuisance country. One of the main problems with the EU that I see is that it has grown too fast and has allowed those countries who are significantly much more economically weaker than the the earlier countries to have free movement. Of course they are going to head towards the richer countries as we have all found out.
Firstly, let me say, that I am English, born and bred in Bedfordshire, as English as it gets.
I have lived, worked,prospered and paid huge amounts of tax, in Germany for the past 20 years. I left England because it never offered me any chances, and 20 years ago,it was a secular, class oriented shit-hole.
Have any one of you numskulls asking to to leave the EU ever thought about what this really means?
It seems to me that there is an ongoing propaganda campaign that has been running for years, in the UK, against EU. The people of the UK are being brainwashed, into thinking that the EU is somehow responsible for their economic and social problems.
They all dearly look for someone or something to point the finger at, and blame for the state of the UK. The EU is the perfect target for this.
The problem is, it’s not the EU that has caused the mess you are in, you have all done it to yourselves.
Every time I go back to the UK, I am shocked at what a shit-hole it still is. It has frankly become the most embarrassing, dirty, rundown country in the EU.Seriously people, gt out and about. Go to other countries. England is a total shithole.
There is an arrogance, and self confidence amoungst people that is not warranted by skills, personal attributes, or performance, but is born out of pure ignorance and arrogance, and a feeling that they are somehow above other nations/people. People who don’t have anything, will never be anything, and have never had anything, calling to leave the EU, is absurd. This mentality is the result of this ongoing campaign by a few, to influence many. I am no longer proud to be English and am often embarrased when asked to explain “what is up with the brits”
Have any of you loudmouthed, bad mannered, ignorant numskulls ever stopped to think what exactly YOU personally, will gain from leaving Europe?
Do you think you are going to ever see one penny of the 7.3 billion contribution, your government saves? do you think your government will put that to good use? Think about this please.
Do you seriously think your lives will improve?
Will YOU have more money? Will YOUR health service improve? Will YOU get a bigger, better house? A nicer car? All you fools seem to care about is buying and selling stupid houses, and making a few bob on the side, with some kind of fiddle. Its as true today as it ever was, that this is the only way to get on in the UK. that should tell you how much your country is NOT doing for you.
The reason you don’t want to be in Europe is not because Europe is corrupt or too expensive, but because YOU, yourselves are corrupt, and don’t want to be forced not to be corrupt , or have to play by the same rules as everyone else.
That is the core of your fear of Europe. That you will be exposed for what you are, and that you will no longer be able to compete, on even ground, and continue with your nice little numbers..
The EU will end your game. That is the basic problem in a nation of petty criminals, crooks, and fiddlers. I seriously am ashamed to be English right now. The entire world is looking at England and thinking “what a bunch of idiots”.
Leaving the EU is your solution to not being able to cope with rules,regulations and most of all, change. It is a cop out, and an excuse for your incompetence and shortcomings, as a country.
Every time I go back to the UK I am shocked at how so many people are stuck in the past. Still talking about the second world war,dday, hitler and maggie thatcher. FFS, move on, a stop living in the past. Your daily lives are dictated by tabloid press, awful television, mobile phones, the pub, booz, football, and utter trash. Its pathetic.And exposes how shallow and vane this country has become. England is dirty, under-invested,broken,old and spent, it is a nation ripe for the picking. socially weak, with, living in the past.. That is why I can walk down a street in the middle of London and not see a single white English face. The EU can not change that, leaving the EU wont ever repair that.
That is not the fault of the EU, but the the fault of the people that live in England. The pathetic 7.3 billion that you think the EU needs, will not be missed, and I will be the first to give up my British citizenship if this ever becomes a reality.
I wont miss that shit hole.
yours faithfully,
a thoroughly embarrassed Englishman.
Im a swede living in Uk and I coudnt disagre with you more. Ive been here for 20 yrs and would never consider to go back (I will change my citizenship if I have to) I dont think my home country got anything to offer me anymore, new labour (bunch of idiots) goverment is saying it will have the lowest unemployment in Europe by 2020 but what a load of bull. Imigration is sky high, lack of housing, school education is declining etc etc etc. Freedom of speach hardly exist as you will only be classed as a rasist if you say anything about imigration issus. Im not so much of a proud Swede anymore and think Uk got a lot of guts to stand up to to Eu, its just a downhill circus.
What a load of crap We were not the sick man of Europe before we joined, that happened after, remember when we had a Coal industry, that became unprofitable, by subsidies paid to other countries, and not to the UK, so Thatcher, destroyed the industry, by attacking the unions, so that we could import cheap subsidised coal, we also used to have a large fishing fleet, we were told that EU, would allow expansion, of the industry, in fact it almost wiped it out, the UK was doing fine until we were conned, into joining the common market, by lies and assurance’s, that we were given, and again now the government and EU supporters, must think that we have a short memory as they are using the same old lies again, for anyone who thinks we would not survive outside the EU, should read the following leaflet. http://issuu.com/ukip/docs/784392327/13?e=16718137/13553304
Since 1975 over 50 big businesses have left the UK with EU loans. Energy prices killed other big manufacturing off. Yes EU is to blame.
Paul,
What a diatribe.
To be quite honest the way you speak I would suggest that you renounce your UK Citizenship and take up German Citizenship, you would be happier by the sounds of it.
You call the UK corrupt, well that is the view of many UK people about Europe. Just look at some of those country’s and how they manage their affairs, look at the President of the Commission and the problems in his past and the actions of his old Government which are now finally being investigated. Look at Germany even and how it has abused many EU rules to its own benefit. Finally look in the mirror at yourself.
You talk about how the UK now looks and the number of non-white faces, that’s called immigration and in case you have missed it is a matter of major concern to the majority of UK Citizens. How do you think it is for those that unlike you didn’t run off to another country but stayed to make a difference and a future in the UK? We live with it everyday and everyday we see more EU migration and more EU interference in how the UK deals with Foreign Aid and Asylum Seekers – incidentally our net effort in this is more than twice that of your beloved Germany.
You talk about our tabloid press and media and say that the UK people are being brainwashed into thinking that the EU is all at fault. You obviously do not watch or read our media Paul as if you did you would know that the majority of it talks about how great the EU is, how great EU migration is, how the UK benefits from both and how it could not survive without either. Unfortunately for you, the media and most politicians fewer and fewer people in the UK believe this anymore. Even more importantly more and more people are realising that the information they have been given about the EU has many lies and mis-leading information; such things as
A) 3 Million jobs would be lost (that we the total number of jobs associated either directly or in-directly with goods and services provide to EU member states), they would not be lost.
B) There are no plans for an EU Military force!!
3) We need the EU for trade and they would not trade with us if we left or would put barriers up – when actually the EU only accounts for some 35-40% of of trade and the UK runs a Trade Deficit with the EU, they sell us 79% more. So they would trade with us and they would not put barriers up as this would hurt them and especially Germany more.
4) EU Migrants are a net benefit to the UK – this has been said in 2 reports both funded by the EU. 4 independentally funded reports found the exact opposite.
I could go on, then of course we have EuroNews a news channel established and paid for by the EU to give the UK people positive messages only about the EU.
Finally Paul you say that we contribute 7.3 billion. You obviously listen or read some very inaccurate reports. In 2014 the EU’s budget was 142.6bn of which 19.234bn or 13.49% came from the UK. Yes we got some of that back but so do other countries, yes we even have a rebate but so do other countries and, in fact when that was negotiated it was designed to recompense the UK for the failure of the EU to give proportionally the same CAP money to the UK as it was giving to France, Germany and other countries. The EU promised to revise and improve CAP and in return the UK gave up over 50% of its rebate, the EU however reneged on its promise.
This is why the EU is poorly viewed in the UK Paul, so please give up your UK Citizenship and become a nationalised German, they of course will always see you as an Englander and not really one of them, but there again you are not really one of us either.
I couldn’t have said it better!
The bottom line is that the U.k. would be on the way to becoming a third world country if it were to leave the E.U.
lol!
Just like Norway is a third world country.
Or Switzerland.
Or Iceland.
…
Or any independent country in the world? Singapore, third world too?
You guys fail to see that you are better of than most of EU countries because you simply didn’t take the Euros (just like the swedes and their 3% growth)…
Peoples like stats here?
Well unemployment grew in the whole EU, but if you look at the breakdown: only within the Eurozone… Because it’s reducing in the non-Euro Zone!
For instance, in France, the unemployment never ceased to grew in 7 years. 84 consecutive increases.
What a load of bull.
The House of Commons Economic Experts have investigated this and have looked at all of the reports available. There conclusion is that the most show that the UK would benefit from leaving the EU but the actual outcome would depend on Government policy subsequent to any such exit.
We were not a third world country before we joined the EU. Remember when you opened your old school atlas? The pink areas showed the extent of UK influence. Britain is a great trading nation, with highly skilled industrious people. We will not only survive outside the EU, we would prosper.
@Keith Elcomb – Just to clarify, you are genuinely suggesting that outside the European Union we could reclaim the British Empire?
And, before we joined the EEC we were the ‘sick man of Europe’. Remember, we had to go cap in hand to the IMF in the 1970s begging for a bailout.
T.Fletch you complete idiot hahaha
You’re wrong we are more likely to become a third world country as a member of the EU just looks at all the rough sleepers we are taking over our city parks and streets, mostly from Eastern Europe.
Get out of EU ASAP as our kids will struggle to find jobs with the amount of people coming to this country and I’m sick to death of hearing loads foriengers speaking there own language outside my little girls school
Britain is a very rich country and could easily survive on its own. It gives a large chunk of its riches to the EU which is then distributed to poorer countries such as Poland and Romania. The EU spends a huge amount on agricultural projects. Britain gets very little out of the EU, although that could change in the future.
Britain has never technically been part of the EU anyway…
UK is not the only member unhappy with how EU is run or its plans to merge all into one or the EU’s power happy leaders being unable to accept critism or review its status with EU members. It is disappointing that other countries do not question the accountability of the EU more closely.
No.
Simple answer, NO WE SHOULD NOT!! The Magna Carta was the foundation of freedom for SOME, so it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. As long as I don’t steal your horse or make a roof out of your twigs… I’ll be OK!
No, no we shouldn’t.
.
We have to leave, freedom & democracy are far to important to give away.
http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/home/media/universityoflincoln/globalmedia/magnacarta/800th-magna-carta-lincoln.jpg
YES!!! The reasons are endless. People who think we shouldn’t are delusional with rose tinted vision!
YES!!! The reasons are endless. People who think we shouldn’t are delusional with rose tinted vision!
The EU is a fundamentally corrupt organisation. Not so very different to FIFA.
As a businessman, exporting product worldwide, I can assure you all that life outside the EU will improve our trading position, help our economy grow, secure our borders and put the G back into Great Britain.
Great article, if you want to be part of a team that campaigns for the UK to remain in the EU come help OneEurope http://one-europe.info/uk-eu-referendum-volunteer
how about NO get stuffed
NO!
NO!
.
Who needs the EU ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33162403
.
Who needs the EU ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33162403
For anyone who has been conned into believing that leaving the EU would be a disaster, should click on the following link, that not only gives the facts, but also gives all the sources from where the information was collected?
http://issuu.com/ukip/docs/784392327/13?e=16718137/13553304
A document by the UKIP, Gary. Have you seen the research by City UK?
You know, I can also provide my own evidence that I am the queen of Sheba…
Yes
Yes, is the simple answer. There is too much beauracracy, too many laws made and passed for us without our say, by people the British electorate haven’t elected; we pay billions of pounds per year and get very little back; the red tape and restrictive legislation placed on us by the EU is damaging our business and our infrastructure; it is no wonder that most small businesses within the UK fail within the first 6 months – 1 year, the amount of guidelines and pointless rules they have to abide by is strangling them and making it impossible for them to thrive; it’s alright for some people to call UKIP and the right-wing of the Tory party racist for even daring to mention that not everything about immigration is beneficial, but just wait until your child can’t get their preferred primary school place because it went to a child from Poland; imagine your daughter or son was ill and you couldn’t get a GP appointment for days/weeks because more and more appointments have been taken up by people from elsewhere moving in and taking them all; wouldn’t you feel even slightly aggrieved? Wouldn’t there even be a small part of you that was annoyed that because of the EU open borders, free movement idea, you were being shoved down the list of priorities in terms of an Eastern European person, or a South Asian person? Moreover, the fact that immigrants to our country are entitled to completely free healthcare, when we have to pay health insurance even when we go to other EU countries, let alone the rest of the world, is completely wrong; it’s also wrong that EU citizens are entitled to free healthcare, whereas those wishing to come here from outside the EU have to pay health insurance; if you want to talk about racial discrimination, what about that for an example. Another thing, the ease with which migrants are able to claim benefits is ridiculous; even those who haven’t worked here or paid anything into our financial and economic system at all are entitled to a wide-range of benefits, which is disgusting. There are more reasons for us to leave and I could go on, but this comment is pretty wrong already.
YES
.
If the EU elite do not sort themselves out there will be no need of a referendum as it will start to fall apart all by itself… with a bad outcome for all..
‘European Solidarity’ is a myth, control over member States is the true goal of the Greek tragedy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33164924
I would not like that.
I would prefer them to stay with the rest of us.
(and also personally, because I’m currently working in the UK)
But, well… it’s their decision, let them have their say in the Referendum. And we must accept that.
Plus: I really think Mr. Cameron’s renegotiation attemps are perfectly justified. The concerns of the British people (as expressed by Mr. Cameron) are fair, and must be addressed.
If other EU leaders refuse to listen to him, then they will be showing that they don’t want to work WITH the UK… just taking advantage of this country – which is not fair for the British taxpayer.
Other EU countries (such as my home country) should have started looking after our common European borders and our own long-term common interests much earlier…
No it would be financial suicide, look at all the banks and companies that use London etc as a base, what advantage would there be in remaining in UK if we left… Besides look at the EU funding we would loose
They said that about the Euro, If we did not join all the banks and financial institutions would leave London, but the reverse occurred and the UK got even stronger in these industries.
It is also worth remembering that the EU is placing massive restrictions on these firms and that they do not like it. This is causing firms to consider leaving the EU area.
Big businesses, such as power companies, want to stay in the EU, as many of them are owned by European corporations.
However, the biggest employers in the UK will not be effected by us leaving the EU (except maybe cutting down nhs waiting lists, classroom sizes etc.) Nor will the huge majority of other businesses.
And Airbus confirmed yesterday that the advice given by the Head of AIrbus UK was incorrect. If the UK left the EU Airbus would stay in the UK
We all need to be confident about this. We can and must go it alone. The EU is a doomed project and we cannot afford to be dragged down. Greece is on the slippery slopes already. Who next? Portugal? And then who will be next? In GB, we have the skills, the industry and great designers and innovators. Pass the word around. It’s time to get out!
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKKBN0OZ1W220150619
This indicates that certain prevalent British anti EU commentators on this site certainly do not speak for the majority of the UK.
Excuse me yes they do most people want out of this joke .So do not kid yourself we will leave .
I can guaranty that The EU will fudge and cobble a deal together to keep Greece in the union. All those officials jetting around and going to conferences and lavish lunches. Big smiles on all their faces too ! Why ? Because you and I are paying for it all.
I will eat my marzipan hat if Greece has to leave !
For an anglophile like me, who participated in the 1975 Referendum campaign until voting day, it is hard to say that my frustration about Britain’s membership has been growing over the years and has reached breaking point. How could Cameron launch a new referendum (how many more will there be), partly because of fear of UKIP that in Britain’s undemocratic electoral system would have little parliamentary relevance as all parties but the two largest parties? The PM will fail to repatriate any substantial EU policy, because it would require unanimity and probably also treaty change, and there is a limit to opt outs that can be accepted for any country. The main problem is that all most Britons want is a Common Market (they often still call the EU just that); in 1975, in order to win the referendum, the pro-campaign failed to mention that the Rome Treaty stipulated an “ever growing” union, which actually would eventually lead to political union. As Britain does not understand the influence it has in the management of the Union’s collective sovereignty, perhaps it is best it renegotiates its relationship with the EU towards a simple customs union. If it wants more, such as continued participation in the Single Market, it must realize that in Europe’s social-market economy, that is not possible without common rules to ensure the “four freedoms”. Withdrawal from the EU would however mean for the UK leaving all decisions in those regards to EU members (like Norway and Switzerland are doing). Whether such a loss of sovereignty would be in the British interest is for Britons to decide. Hopefully, the NO campaign will tell them the truth in that regard. The EU cannot afford members who need to hold periodical referenda to check whether they will stay or leave the EU. If a majority of the English want to leave, but a majority of others such as the Scots don’t want to, one should not ignore the views of each of them.
Some very valid points! But take into account that the Scots form less than 10% of the eligible voting population of the UK and not all Scots want to remain in the EU.
Good comments Corrado,
What must be made clear in this Referendum is not really a Yes (with renegotiation) to stay in or No to leave.
If the UK votes to stay in, and it must be a majority decision by the combined population of the UK, then people must realise that long term this will mean giving up any negotiated powers and becoming a full and active member of the EU; this includes a move probably before 2025 to the Euro.
There cannot be any halfway houses in the EU project, for it to work all members have to be committed to the project and the long term aim of closer integration creating eventually what will be for all purposes an effective nation state with current national parliaments becoming regional ones.
@Corrado
hear, hear
I might add that the remaining core EU will find it increasingly difficult to make efforts towards accomodating more countries, especially large ones like the UK, in their wishes for a special relationship. Partly for purely practical reasons, but mostly because it massively erodes the core principles. In extrapolation this kind of policy will lead to a loose, chaotic, barely manageable association of “special relationships” without any core union, dominated by the few large players. This would be more than one step back and completely topple the current political structure, which provides at least some checks and balances preventing large countries from dictating to small ones.
yes the UK is becoming more and more an economic safe haven for Europe and they should protect themselves from the destructive bureaucracy of the EU administrations.
I would not..
Because they think your rude! IRONY hahaha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFXSj5WofYA
Should the whole world collapse and be destroyed and all poor die and the rich and priviledge take to britain for the sake of Britain’s survival?!!
No, they have good experience with strange people..
no. union is power
No!
no
I bet not
Why der leaving europe are they not europe n beside their money is not euro its pounds den
NO
Yes!
Uk must decide if wants stay in or out.
No
Saudi Green 1320 EU and Britain
Yes, but I prefer they decide on referendum
DO YOU SEE ANY UNION IN THIS EU ???
ENGLISH KNEW THAT ALL EU PROJECT IS GERMAN BUSINESS THATS WHY THEY STAY OUT OF EURO !!!!
EU IS MADE BY GERMANS CAUSE THEY CANNOT MAKE ANOTHER WAR , SO THEY BRING THIS 3d ECONOMIC ONE !!!
If I were a British citizen I would call for leaving EU since years. Immigrants from other low-income EU countries, not to mention the outsider refugees, took over all the British people’s jobs and Life.. So why they should stay for God sake…
A resounding NO!
I find the whole notion of leaving, absurd !
Often the argument for leaving is a sugar coated inward looking and nationalist agenda.
Nationalist agenda,really christian is that all you can come up with
Christian you are German by the sound of it.
The EU is primarily working tot he nationalist agenda of Germany rather than the people if Europe, why should we stay to feather the nest of Germans?
All countrieS must leave a cleptocratic union
Is better stay alone then being Eu bitch
No !
Free choice
Whats a britain?
Of course Britain should leave! But I’m not sure, Uncle Sam will bet it do!
Yes and No, free choice if… only with whole City money invested in EU.
U.K. in or out is not a question.
This question is a matter of analytical examination and political assessment.
I’d suggest we’d rather refer to chronologic history from the very moment, the moment U.K. attended negotiations to de(i)cide for or against joining the Europa Union. Let’s analyse within decades of past U.K. history their European policy and actions.
Aftermath we do have got to have the consequences enacted.
I do not know ‘in’ or ‘out’?
Let the entire history between E.U. and U.K. deliver, judge and diminish itself reactions, actions, and deeds.
If it’s I (me) who has to decide… please, please, please, get rid off and oust the U.K. of policies which have no future.
Ah you mean get rid of the EU policies because they don’t have a future
NO dividae is the wrong strategy
Why would we stay please tell me the benefit for us.
Well, if they can’t afford staying with us I guess they have to be on the outside.
Yes your right but when your the 2nd main contributor and been put in austerity ourselves for the privilege it is too expensive.
Stephen, contribution is according to GDP and so everyone contributes according to their means, and therefore ultimately it is the same for everyone. You can read about this in the paper below that I have posted. They are without much substance these things that you come and post here.
Britan is not a piece of the European continent, but an island stringed to all kind of mafia world wide its emperialistic remnants and ramifications! The EU is lacking a clear concept on what the union shell be in relation to sustainable mechanism for controling monitary flow and value of time-space relevancy! UK is playng double blind with Russia as well the US evet since strings in Asia have been distorted in order to fullfil strategies in dealing with ‘shits’
I have spoken some days ago of this with a “moderate and reasonable” person just here (sarcasm). If theirs must be about inside only to appears and to make the arrogant, is better that they go. They have wanted to enter the 1973, but from 80s they have created only problems, they are always complained and they want to have voice in matters that don’t leastly concern them. They send before the others before dirtying they hands. The UK doesn’t have sense to exist in the continent. If despite everything this, they must be inside, it’s better to Kick them out. Or they are decided to be inside EU and to become reasonable or out. We will go forward. PS: I say this as Italian (conscious and proud to be in Europe) that it tries to let his fellow countrymen to reason. I don’t need others with which to discuss.
Wait for igor….. lmaooo
I have spoken some days ago of this with a “moderate and reasonable” person just here (sarcasm). If theirs must be about inside only to appears and to make the arrogant, is better that they go. They have wanted to enter the 1973, but from 80s they have created only problems, they are always complained and they want to have voice in matters that don’t leastly concern them. They send before the others before dirtying they hands. The UK doesn’t have sense to exist in the continent. If despite everything this, they must be inside, it’s better to Kick them out. Or they are decided to be inside EU and to become reasonable or out. PS: I say this as Italian (conscious and proud to be in Europe) that it tries to let his fellow countrymen to reason. I don’t need others with which to discuss.
Lamborghini the Uk has been a net contributor to the EU since day one of joining, we have not complained about this. We have however had enough of this encroaching federalism, the UK joined a Trade Bloc as a trading partner, we did not join to lose our sovereignty and become citizens of the EU. That is why we must now vote on whether to stay or leave.
YES!
NO , I think Britains gotta leave Mr. Cameron in the Atlantic Ocean ….
Yes ! Please go away , so tired of you uk
Absolutely not: we need them…
And despite Tories have always been euro-skeptical, there is no future in the stand-alone countries: only a strong EU can face global issues..
Excuses me, Ascari, but they have never wanted really to enter in EU. They have entered only for an economic matter and to earn. As they have always done. In this hard times, they don’t now have profit anymore and they want to go. Don’t seem me a proper behavior for a country that wants to belong to something greater.
Lamborghini,
The EU is not great or greater but a leech on countries. We have accepted this and have always contributed economically than most others including Italy, we have not moaned. Trade wise we have not benefited from the EU after all of our added costs, the only country to have really benefited is Germany.
Now the EU wants to form a single state with EU citizens, it’s own military, police force, political force etc. That is not what we joined for. Italy may like being dictated to and ruled by unelected burearocrats the UK does not.
If they want it they have to do it.
NO
Little Britain maybe , but not Scotland 💙 !
European Union itself cause to disintegrate.
And should someone who wants to leave this union to be forced to be part of it.
This does not lead to anything constructive, the more that England would not have facilitated the development of this union.
So if England wants to leave the union – let’s do it
Yes get the F..k Off – go give your passports to the martians …
No, ue need a good counterpart to germany, it is a fact
Were they ever «in»?
If you want to be part of a team that helps the UK stay in the EU joint One Europe http://one-europe.info/uk-eu-referendum-volunteer
Any takers Rob?
No thanks Rob give your head a shake and campaign to get us out mate
We either have a REAL European Union, and not a German led conquered Europe of Germany, or we should kill the deal. The Brits are smart, they know better than to join with Germany at the helm.
Yes! Get out of the balls!
Or maybe it just is not something greater it is in fact a controlling all consuming bullying monster is the EU.The people’s of Europe do not benefit in anyway at all from it only big business and banks do.If the UK leaves and I believe we will that will be the end of your EU or United States of Europe dream.It will collapse it is already starting to fold now.
No. But it depends of the british people actually…
Germany should leave!!!
Estos son los que mejor se lo montan
Is up to them
The British interest is the country to be in EU. The Britons use the common market and their economy is oriented at Europe. This is a Cameron’s bluff for a new contract with France and Germany.
Our trade with the EU as a proportion to all trade has decreased by over 25% in the last decade. We are not orientated towards Europe and never have the World is the UK’s trading market.
It still is quite high, Danny, as shown in the paper that I have posted below and it is too high to be lost overnight. It is also a higher percentage of UK GDP than it is of EU and so the EU is more indispensable to the UK than vice versa, contrary to what people posting here seem to realise.
No no no! We forget what good things it’s brought us
Like what john?
Yes like what john I fail to see any benefit what so ever
What is it you call Britain? The british isles…great britain, scotland,england,walles,northern island, scotland,the united kingdom?…… be precise before asking.
The state is “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” (“UK” for short). “Great Britain” (or just “Britain”) does not include Northern Ireland but “Britain” is often used incorrectly as another word for the UK, even within the UK.
The referendum will be about the UK’s membership of the EU and all UK citizens will be eligible to vote.
As soon as possible as the UK doesn’t play positive role what’s the point of being on it?
Nope
.
What do you mean ‘should ‘ we leave the EU ?, we ‘ARE’ leaving your pointless EU.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/sites/default/files/uploads/2014/10/keep-calm-and-leave-the-eu-21.png
No…I’m sure Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales will vote to stay in and I suspect London will vote to stay in…but England is full of such misinformed Mail-readers that UK could end up out of the EU.
You mean like Owen Jones, Graham Stringer, Kate Hoey and Lord Stoddart? Whenever I debate with British EU-philes, I find them to be incredibly misinformed about the EU and a future outside the EU.
Its not up to us to decide, but the British citizens
David-John Harkness
You probably missed it but the Scot’s voted to stay in the UK knowing full well we are leaving the EU.
Why would an EU dedicated to eradicating Nationalism allow a ultra Nationalistic Scotland to join ?
the clue is in the name of the S’N’P..
We were conned into the EU together, we will leave it together.
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialNOtoEU/photos/pb.891615804230125.-2207520000.1439718741./920480208010351/?type=3&theater
Greece should leave the eurozone
I agree with many comments above BUT what I think is that they should make the decision to proceed or not proceed with EU as soon as possible.
England will form an alliance with America. Yes they will leave Europe.
.
Every country in the EU should ask their people if they want to be in the EU.
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/elections/following-cameron-marine-le-pen-pledges-eu-exit-referendum-313229
Νο ! Britain should invite all Common Wealth market countries to request full membership to E.U.
I’m just imagining UK leaving EU, electing Jeremy Corbin as PM and there you have it, a flaming and raging dark communist dystopian society…like 1984 kinda dark but darker.
Nope they just need to understand that they can’t just enjoy advantages without the drawbacks arising out from their commitment
Very well put, Maxime!
So Maxime,
What benefits do we enjoy? Pray tell.
No . don’t separatev
No
It’s quite possible that Britain will leave the EU,
but I fail to see what she would gain other than alienating her European partners..?
No thanks
Yes
No
yes
there is a lot of democratic deficit into de UE.
The EU should leave Europe.
will put UK in the hands of germans??? answer it
If they wish.
Ivan Burrows it was more of a bate … to cheer the atmospere but as it seems to be more serious of an idea well Common wealth was first thoughr as a counterbalance open market ofthe continental “powers” . As U.K. seems to sear h for a role let it bee it.! Introduce those arising markets to E.U. partership than bosting that U..K. invented America which is true
Nikolas, If the Eu was still a trading block that would make sense, but it is not. The EU wishes to become a Nation State (we are already called EU Citizens and have been told that to relinquish EU Citizenship we also have to relinquish British Citizenship).
They want their own currency, full parliament, head of state, military, police force, political force and embassies etc. Why would we want to introduce others to the EU when it’s aim is to conquer and rule?
This question is about money or UE community? There are two different answers for my question. Actually the question I am doing myself since UE was created in first place.
ps: yes I am from the UE periphery……..
No! Britain should stop benefits! Diferent things!
No.
Leave or fully commit, not the so so attitude that they’ve had until now!
GB should leave EU and apply for U.S. 51st state membership..
It’s up to them. If they stay great if they leave, well we only miss the ones that fit in. They should have experience in unions as they keep the Commonwealth but as I said it’s up to them
I will vote to leave the EU if or when I get the opportunity. I understand the need for co-operation by European states on matters which inevitably affect us all. We will always need a forum for this.
I also understand the frustrations of other European nations who want to integrate politically, while Britain wants the opposite. It’s not a comfortable position to be always opposing the direction of travel of an organisation, and we lose national goodwill as a result.
At the same time, I share the frustrations of many English and some other British people who voted for an economic free market Europe, not for political integration.
I believe that the EU’s logic of “ever closer union” ultimately involves the elimination of the nation state – Jean Monnet’s naive dream. I oppose this ideology implacably. For all its faults, the nation state is what most people owe their primary political allegiance to. The EU’s mission to bring down the European nation state is political folly and ideological vandalism of the highest order.
When you think of all the wars that have taken place in the name of the nation state, Fatherland etc, and the human life cost and racist views, it doesn’t look like it at all actually. Ideological vandalism of nationalism is a bad thing? The ideology of a nation is actually an empty myth and a relatively new one too. Even the ancient people were not nation-states.
In response to Yvetta, there is a healthy pride in one’s nation. But it’s true also that nationalism can lead to extremism. If you look at Nazi Germany, German nationalism was poisoned with eugenic and extreme philosophy. If you look at Russia, nationalism was poisoned with communist ideology. If you look at American nationalism, this exhibits many toxic forms because of sheer financial and military power.
However, ultimately, people need to govern themselves according to some level of organisation which corresponds to their geographical location and commonality of language and culture. In my view, the nation state does this best – not perfectly – but better than any alternative.
It is not the existence per se of the nation state which is the problem but rather the concentration of power in the hands of an unaccountable few, combined with half-baked ideology. On both these scores, the EU ranks as a highly dangerous organisation, and it’s small wonder that its growing power is causing a nationalistic backlash.
Sorry, but I think that nationalism appeals to smaller minds than mine that have a regional understanding of the world. I am a citizen of the world and I insist nationalism is dangerous and the EU was formed in response to it. You are obviously of far-right ideology (I don’t expect you to admit it).
Yvetta > You are so un-cultured but you’re calling other peoples names it’s almost funny. So, let me correct you.
The Nation-state is an idea of the Left.
Where “Extreme Nationalism”, who lead to “Imperialism”,
throughout history, is mainly a far right ideology or simply a war ideology.
You find the idea that the nation and it’s citizen as the basic “brick” of democracy into the French Declaraction of Human Rights. (Article 2 if I recall)
Far from being an ideology of hatred, it’s the very idea that no power can be found anywhere else than in the People.
The actual name is “Declaration des Droits de l’Homme et du Citoyen”.
Yes.
“Declaration of Human AND CITIZEN Right.”
(Peoples tend to overlook the citizen part..)
The United Nation charts also defend the concept.
So many peoples died to freed their country from imperialism, for their independance or right to remain different, it’s just the most ludicrous statement that if you are against the EU you are from far-right.
Was Simon Bolivar from far-right?
Was French Resistance from far-right?
You should be worried by your own “World” view over regional:
Biggest is a political structure, the more the money and the power are concentrated in the hand of a few, with corruption and egos…
Just take a look today at US politics. At China… At the EU..
The EU have more in common with USSR.
Opposing the USSR was being from far right?
Come on yvetta:
Being naive it’s one thing but that’s just sad to this extent… At least don’t preach or insult.
Nice try, Alexandre….However, it is totally unclear how the word “people” connects to the word “nation”, the latter of which by default has an element exclusivity, either genetic/racist or cultural. To one point I can understand where that would be coming from, when people have had to shake off ethnic or religious oppression, but that is not the case in the EU, so a totally irrelevant example. You also seem to confuse imperialism with union on voluntary basis and entered by democratic governments. You know there are so many long, long, long posts here that are totally pointless, void of substance and completely failing to make a point…
Yvetta, I am sorry that you fail to see the EU for what it is.
Sorry if my post are long.
It’s what it takes to argument, and not calling anyone who disagree of far-right extremist.
Nations are a bit more than your definition of it…
Still, there is NOTHING wrong of having Cultural difference.
It’s not leading to murder as far as I know.
It’s a way to see the world, not dominating it. If germany is ultraliberal and France leans towards a strong state and welfare, what’s wrong with that?
If one promote education, or don’t want GMO?
You say it has an element of genetic exlusivety, which is not the case. You can ask citizenship. If your son is born in France for instance, he can be French, just like that.
In the other hand I am always very dubitous of peoples who want uniformity and impose their view across millions of very different peoples.
Let’s put it this way: I’d rather live in small Switzerland than in the big US.
Plus I would add European Union is a racist project.
Let’s make a white-christian-union to oppose the “fear of growing China”
(did you know: even the EU flag is religious related!)
Again: Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen:
“Article II – The goal of any political association is the conservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of man. These rights are liberty, property, safety and resistance against oppression.
Article III – The principle of any sovereignty resides essentially in the Nation. No body, no individual can exert authority which does not emanate expressly from it.”
I would add EU is NOT an “union on voluntary basis and entered by democratic governments”
As a French, I had a referundum on the matter, which as been ignored, like the dutsh. Irish peoples had to vote thrice, to vote “correctly”.
From there, everything else is irrelevant, no?
Alexandre, I don’t know anything about the referenda you are referring to, so can’t comment but, once again, your comment seems irrelevant to what I have posted. You, of course, have the option of relocating to Switzerland. I wouldn’t. The country is making money out of dodgy business and, apparently, it is ok to be racist there. Perfectly normal…no thanks for me.
Yvetta,
From the start I am telling you, that instead of bringing shortcuts like:
“You are against EU, you are Far-right…” is nothing short but imbecile and you should check WHY peoples actually run away more and more from the EU.
And you clearly haven’t been to switzerland, or have a clue.
Main ressource of switzerland is… pharmaceutics.
Their banking system as been widely changed and is only about 12% of their GDP.
Not great yet but farrr from being main source of income.
And London and it’s City DWARF switzerland when it comes to inflated financial system and shaddy tax scheme.
Democracy is key with popular referundum there.
And it’s not “okay” to be racist there, I don’t know where this idea come from…
And I have afghani friends managing a luxurious oriental restaurant doing VERY well.
The referundum I am refering to is 2005, on the european constitution, we rejected by 55% and a high participation.
(also markign the decline of Far-right at the time) The Lisbon Treaty, which is exactly almost the same, has been signed by Sarkozy in 2009.
Look it up seriously.
Because THIS is a keystone on WHY the EU is NOT a “nice” thing.
You can call that Democracy because we elected Sarkozy, but a good chunk of French society is increasingly sucpicious towards EU since then (And the rise of far-right – not in numbers of voting peoples, but increasing abstention)
Alexandre,
I am afraid that is one of the main problem with many Europhiles such as Yvetta, they do not know much about the EU and especially nothing negative. They also throw stupid “racist” “Islamophobic” and “homophobic” accusation when they cannot make a true argument.
which has absolutely nothing to do with my initial comment…and you had better check your own language and manners, Alexandre, before you start teaching others. There are too many people like you on this debate…
Actually, Danny, if you read back your own post, you will see that it is yourself not providing any arguments but are resorting to characterisations and empty accusations. Also, previously, the facts have contradicted your claims here, but you chose to ignore that. I would say (again), the problem with this debate is that too many people half-literate in the subject, misinformed and believing things simply because they have heard them many times are on it. They post some long and complicated responses, often pompous and quoting various sources but either irrelevant or of zero substance. Typically, when they have lost the argument and have nothing further to support their views either they start taking the debate in circles (by repeating what they have already posted and it has been refuted) or, the nasty ones, resort to personal attacks and labels…Not worth my while any further…
Yvetta,
I have provided very succinct arguments and details. I am able to do this as an ex-Trade & Industry brief writer for the UK Government, including the Prime Minister.
You on the otherhand have tried to resort to character assassination and inane comments such as those to Alexandre and stupid comments about other countries such as Switzerland. You appear to lack any knowledge about the EU or the wider world but have a hobby horse that you are trying very poorly to protect.
You have also made statements about yourself implying that you are a Scottish National but have refused to totally confirm this or to answer the questions about it. My personal opinion is that with a non-scottish name you are not in fact Scottish and probably do not reside in that country or if you do then you are probably a migrant or first generation. So why don’t you answer the question?
If you can come back with any succinct and intelligent defences for the EU and why the UK should vote to stay in despite the long term plan to create a single political state I would be interested. If you cannot then please stop the babble.
Clearly, it is the people that got zero at school that come and post here…bullies perhaps as well? Forget about it Danny…
Yvetta,
Do not be too hard on yourself. You try but are not a bully and if you achieved very little at school that is not anything to be ashamed of. Not everyone can achieve a degree, postgraduate and Masters in Business, nor will they have built from scratch the 5th largest independent fragrance retailer in the UK. I of course have that precise education and the business.
Please do feel free to continue the conversation starting with which country you actually reside in as your name is Eastern European.
Danny, why do you ask people where they live? Does is it make any difference? Do certain countries of residence make people’s point and opinion more valuable than others?
“We” Ivan? You’re not speaking on behalf of the British people. I’m English and have no desire to leave the EU. Choose your words carefully.
Brian, we will find out at the Referendum whether you or Ivan represent the UK
Well Brian
You are in the minority we will leave and with the way that the EU countries are crumbling it’s making it obvious now to all its a dead project now open riots in Germany against immigration and there the biggest champions of the EU.
No!
The UK is the most reluctant member in the union. Let them live their own life.
Good bye.
Britain lose the power
they will never lose power,,they create their own way.
We don’t have any power in the EU ,explain how we have any power in this thing called the EU were we always get out voted and dumped on.
That is called democracy, Stephen. I thought you were in favour of it. The minority needs to accept the will of the majority. Or is it only good when it is in your favour?
All for democracy but only at national level.We just simply get no benefit at all from the EU and it’s power hungry ambitions.I mean why should somebody from say Luxembourg have a say in what affects the UK or visa versa it’s just a ridiculous concept.We should just all stick to trade only and we would all get in better in the future.
Oh, a ridiculous concept, is it, Stephen? So why should the king of England have had a say in what affects Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Cornwall? Did those people have a referendum back in the days? It was just forced on them apart from the fact that they were not allowed to speak their own languages, which is called forced assimilation and now the UK is complaining that the EU is trying to do something similar, only that membership is totally voluntary…
So yvetta
You are comparing the EU to the British Monarchy of many years past,when the world was a far different place,may I just congratulate you on probably the best description of the EU the Anti EU supporters could have asked for .Also the Scottish have only just recently voted to stay in our superb United Kingdom.I feel maybe you need to maybe think before you write because like it or not you are not British so you really don’t know what is best for us.
How do you know I am not British, Stephen? Of course it is a bad comparison, places like Ireland and Wales didn’t have an option but EU membership is voluntary. And, of course, Scotland knows which side its bread is buttered. I think it has made the right choice for itself. We ARE stronger together and the Scots have got the point, obviously.
Well then I am sorry if you are a Scottish.But my point is we are better off out of the EU.We can then make our own laws and trade how we like.I understand now why your opinion on immigration is so mild the Scottish have not suffered it like England has.
SO Yvetta were you born in Scotland, and were your parents? I ask as the name is not Scottish.
Scotland of course voted to stay in a political and economic union that has lasted for over 400 years. The UK is deciding whether it wishes to stay in trading block that is trying to turn itself into a political nation state. Big difference don’t you think?
Hi Danny, political union has always been the ultimate target of the EU. Union at all levels, in fact.
Yvetta,
IN the 75 Referendum the Government and other parties were quite clear to UK citizens, this was a trade block only. Any talk of a political union was adamantly denied in fact it even states so on the 75 Referendum Leaflet. So what you believe and what the UK were voting on are two entirely different things.
BTW I notice you have not answered my question so let me ask you again
“S Yvetta were you born in Scotland, and were your parents? I ask as the name is not Scottish.”
Look forward to an answer.
So Yvetta,
You have not answered my question on any of the threads about where you and your family come from.
Let me hazard a guess, and I am sure Stephen will concur, Your name is Slovakian so you, or your family, are either from that country, Poland, Latvia or good old Czechoslovakia. Certainly not Scotland, so which one?
Sim acho que deve
Afinal nunca estiveram verdadeiramente na europa, acho até que sempre foram a guarda avançada dos US, forma encapotada de espiarem industrialmente os nossos avanços tecnológicos, pelo menos isso….
The EU is crumbling and dying, and people who think it isn’t are kidding themselves; it is unaccountable, unelected, corrupt and useless;, and people are finally starting to realise this; it exists only to make the Brussels fat-cats a lot of money, of which I can assure everyone Britain is one of the biggest contributors; there are people on the streets of Britain dying of hunger and disease, and we give billions and billions of pounds away so the Brussels hierarchy can do whatever they want? They try to impose these laws, they try to have power over us but it isn’t working, the British people are finally waking up; whether Britain leaves the EU, as it should, or whether we are conned into staying in, probably by being forced to keep voting until we say yes, the EU will soon be nothing more than a distant memory, and I can’t wait for that day!
As I recall they played a different tune when Scotland voted for independence. And does this mean Northern Ireland will stay within EU?
Pointless statement all of the UK will leave and stay together like we have for 200 years.
We should all leave the EU. Or it changes, towards a federal like USA, or as it is it needs to end. It has brought nothing but problems to some states. And the politicians are the worst and worst electoral system. Right wing wins by majority yet left wing ideology is applied.
No,if they do,they will be worst off.
How will we be worse off ,we will be so much better off not having to pump billions into this joke called the EU off which we get NO benefit at all.So explain how we will be worse off.
Because your revenue and business will come down, as a result of losing passporting environment, also social policy so there will be an impact on people lower in the scale..
Actually i can’t understand why Britain is in the EU at first place.
Why is Britain in EU?
Unfortunately for now yes but will be free soon
More like EUROPE should leave the “EU” aka financial concentration camp.
I believe that Britain should remain in the EU. Britain benefits in so many ways that the pros easily outnumber the cons. I believe that the EU initiatives regarding sustainability place a check on pollution and waste – the directives on human rights have protected the interests of so many peoples – the argument that the ECB is managing the whole show is nonsense – here many of the new member states have benefitted from generous loans and funding – where things wet wrong was more to do with poor communication and management. More than anything the EU has brought about more harmony and peacefulness than any other suprasovereign entity – it achieved this through cooperation not through conflict or coercion.
Are you for real harmony you must be joking mate watch the news it’s getting the point were everyone hates everyone.Also I couldn’t careless about the smaller EU countries getting loans and funding why should we pay for this its just wrong.Human rights we already had similar things in place .The pros most definitely do not outweigh the Cons in fact I do not see any Pros at all.And lets not forget mass immigration isnt that lovely now..NOT,But we will be free from this soon.
Stephen, see y ou have bought the lies.
The UK has had most of the human right directives in UK law for years before they were EU Directives, some for over a century. No one has ever argued that the ECB was running the show either, boy are you ignorant
So why am I ignorant because I’ve stated fact ,please elaborate on your conclusion as to why you feel the right to call me that.
So Stephen, did we not have our rights protected before the EU. Of course we did, we even had work breaks!!
Have you not heard of the International Accords on climate change and pollution?
And who ever argued that the ECB was controlling everything, that is a Central Bank, not the Commission of unelected bureaucrats.
Think this makes the point
I think your arguing with the wrong Stephen mate I’m anti EU the top poster is Stephen Pain he’s for the EU
Stephen it was the Pain I was talking to. Get’s confusing with 2 Stephen’s should have used the surname :(
I agree with you S. Pain.
S. Pockley no one is paying for other countries as they are paying it themselves, as you said it they are getting loans not free money; and other countries lending is called solidarity (shame to see that there is barely any anymore) and at the end of the day the money will be paid back.
D. Young yes you might have had Human Rights before the EU but you must not have been paying attention to the media as one of the first things Cameron was wanting to scrap as he won the last elections was to scrap the Human Rights Bill/Directive.
If anyone is ignorant it’s those that buy into the Conservatist Thatcherist lies. The EU might be u democratic on some ends but at the end of the day it’s countries and especially the UK that is undemocratic when it signs into treaties without consulting it’s people whether it is the treaty of Lisbon or the TTIP.
Gvasco.
Why should we give other countries money when our own is been put in austerity because of it run by Adolf Merkel.
The reason why you are so worried about Brexit is if we leave and we will now more will follow .Just out of interest which country are you from and we’re do you live.The reason why I asked not many british people are that keen on the EU.
Stephen, assuming “g” is for their first name then “vasco” would place them either in Spain or Italy normally – principally basque spain. Basque like the SNP tend to be pro-EU as they believe if they can break with Spain they can be a country of the EU and get grants/trade etc.
Gvasco, there are net contributors and net gainers in the EU. The UK has always contributed more than it has received back, some argue that we have even given more than we have gained in both contributions and trade. This money that net gainers get is never paid back.
As regards the UK’s Human Rights Act this only came into force in 1998. How do you think we survived before this? Exceptionally well is the answer without terrorist, foreign criminals, illegals etc being able to take the mickey of our system and use the new Act and the ECHR to stay in this country at tax payers expense on the basis of their human rights. When an Act is so poorly worded that it can allow a criminal, terrorist etc to have more rights than the majority they are threatening or abusing then that Act requires revocation.
As for undemocratic and not having referendums can I remind you that the last 3 or 4 held by EU members which gave results contrary to the EU’s wishes were either ignored or required to be re-run by the EU until the answer was the one they wanted. That is undemocratic, ignores the people. That is the EU
Danny, it is not possible to say how much the UK is getting back from the EU, as it is not possible to estimate how much of the business and trade is in the UK because of the EU. This thing that you keep repeating with so much confidence, is of no substance. It’s the kind of thing that the less aware citizens, who tend to be the majority, fall for.
You also seem to think that people’s nationalities somehow devalue their views. Are you struggling with the idea of a debate? This page is for the EU. This includes a number of countries and they all are entitled to their opinions and are free to express them.
No :O
If they have nothing to lose, I do not see a reason for them staying in the Eu
Never. Without UK EU will be nothing.
Never ! UK in EU is very important !
Why are we when we get NO benefit from the EU that is why we will leave
No
no
I am not convinced that the UK was or feels European. It’s never shown a real commitment, and for this reason can cause more harm than good. Hence, it should leave.
I agree and we want to leave
I also agree about Britain should leave European Union.
No.
NO
Yes, if British really want it.
No, no, no.
Να μην αποχωρισει να ενταχθει επιτελους ως ισοτιμο μελος και να μπει και στην ζωνη του ευρω.
Absolutely, NO! We are here for being with … not isolated! Norway, will pay very soon it’s selfishness .
I think Norway will be just fine and why is it been selfish please explain the Norwegians owe the EU people’s nothing.Also us in the UK will leave no doubt there.
Hi Stephen, Norway has already sent a message to the UK to not leave the EU, because it is not a good situation that Norway is in: it has to comply with EU regulations but has not say in them as it doesn’t get to vote.
Hi George
The UK economy is not even remotely comparable to Norway for example we are the 5th largest economy in the world also 6th in the world at production and services so in effect if the EU plays games then we just get our deficit of good elsewhere and the EU will massively lose out.As far as a say goes that counts for nothing at all when constantly out voted to the loss of the UK.We will be better off.
It was you that brought up Norway. Why did you do that if you thought it was a different story? I think you suffer from a mixture of ignorance and delusion which makes debating with you funny but also pointless.
Actually George, Anibal brought up Norway.
Typical Europhile you only look at information that you think will suit you. Guess that makes you the clown in this discussion.
You’ve got absolutely nothing to refute my comment though, Danny, and you are just resorting to name-calling! Who is a clown?
Jude, We would reject dealing with system that provide unefficien control over €€€ fluxes. Of course I’ve meant The G – Britain. We will break up the Northern stupid union surving to those who keep generating ‘idiotic’ both market wise and life science wise economy! The best friend of America and worst enemy is GB. Period! This is claimed by a person who has been elected for running as a president of the largest Greek science organization located in Athenes! That is not a random choice, despite that the largest organized systematic fraud is ran by a net of self propelled ‘idiots’
Not only Britain, all other European countries should leave this “stupidly” run organization. It has not a single positive contibution on what consider to be UNITY. Even today’s mine and coal producers are disturbed by its existance.
Agreed everyone should leave
Maybe if you informed yourself a little bit more about how the EU is actually ran. The EU has many positive things but for those who were encumbered with more rules and regulations for the protection of labor, consumers and markets they can only see the bad side. This is unfortunate.
Gvasco,
The problem for Europhiles is that more and more people in the UK are becoming aware of what the EU does and doesn’t do. That is why the numbers expressing a desire to leave is increasing
Gvasco.
The EU is an incompetent joke of a cult going from one disaster to another bullying,threatening and tell complete lies along the way.I feel proud that Britain will be the first to leave and initiate thedemise of the EU.One day Europe will thank us .
Στα τσακίδια να πάτε καλύτερα. Όποιος θέλει ας μεταφράσει.
Yes , as soon as possible.
The answer is no. If they do not believe in values why they joined the EU? It is our home carrying a multi – cultural people’s union.
You are very wrong the UK joined as a trading union most definitely not a political one we as a nation will never agree to this.
No! Absolutely NO!
Yes.
Why not if they want it
EU should get Britain off! :-)
NO , I hope they are going to stay . British are very important for our development . They can help our democratic and economic development . We need English because they can tell all this otherwise we are going to finish is some long tunnel : http://youtu.be/5JoUAGYXjVc?t=3m30s
I understand why the EU wants us to stay but unfortunately the UK doesn’t get any benefits from the EU it is an expensive club for us and is causing massive tensions in some areas.We will leave I am totally confident of that and I will be voting so.
No, of course not.
UK is Europe.
We will still be in Europe just not the EU I hope.
I notice very few British on this blog.
They re probably fed up with the austerity and migrants.
So sad, they re not very pro-Europe these days, cause English are the most tolerant and evolved people in Europe
You have have just explained two of the main reasons my friend we are fed up of it and we will leave I for one will be voting to leave the EU.
No para nada….
europa without england? is no match.
Why you say that we would be better off without the EU why would we need to stay please explain.
Please yourselves ….
Who cares really?
No
Portugal should do it! Whit order!
Come on, nobody is leaving Europe. Nobody is leaving planet Earth either. Maybe we should focus on that instead. Paris is coming up..
What? Do you mean
Yes! No free riders please!
yes, and the world too
Goodbye, farewell, and so long!!! =)
@Ivan Burrows, thanks for blocking me. It’s ironic that the one person who spends his entire day trolling this page, lecturing its community on the despotic nature of the EU, can’t even take a hint of criticism. Glad to see your true colours shine through.
If your British and pro EU you deserve it pal
Is Britain in the European Union? Good heavens.
No!
They should leave European Union – EU and join UNITED Indians :)
Hahaha wow you thought that through
No.
No.
No. It’s a ridiculous idea.
Why is it please explain the benefits the UK gets from the EU.I am willing to hear your reasons.
No. It’s a ridiculous idea.
Debating Europe
Is it your position to support all anti British and outright raciest remarks during the referendum in Great Britain ?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=496753693835685&set=a.202788083232249.1073741827.100005031758493&type=1&theater
No! Britain should stay!!! Europe would not be the same!!
We would still be in Europe just not the EU I hope we leave anyway
What has the EU done for the UK apart from wipe out our fishing fleet wiped out our steel industry and subseries paid to other countries made our coal industry unprofitable, I can think of hundreds of other bad things but can only think of one good thing easier for holiday travel, we were conned into believing that we were only joining a trading block and not the united states of Europe.
Gary
I have been asking these questions for few months now .Nobody has given me explanation why we should stay in and the benefits.Because I really don’t see any for us at all.
Absolutely should. The Anglophone world is a far bigger market from which Britain will substantially benefit.
Scotland came to England asking to join the Union when it ran out of money no one forced it to join
Britain should be giving a choice to either leave the EU, all trade agreements and all its institutions or to completely join the the EU, Euro and all aspects of being a member of the EU. Britain being half in, half out of the EU is creating all sorts of problems in the EU and it is time the UK was calle don on its imature attitude.
Really pointless post this .We are not fully in because the whole project is just rubbish .Sooner were out the better there is NO benefits for us .
Yes, together with Ireland !
No, never.
Yes, let them free! Together with Ireland and the rest of us.
History tells us the MAIN reason the EU was formed was to prevent another European war breaking out, mostly between France v Germany and this is working. Now those here concerned about saving £8 billion a year should consider not only the cost in £’s of a future conflict playing out near our borders but also the human cost and our own inevitable involvement again. Not only that but if you’re also worried about the amount of illegal immigrants coming over from Asia or Africa now, consider how many more Europeans would end up on these shores in the event of a future war…. so its a No from me on those grounds alone.
History shows that NATO and Nuclear weapons have done more to stop war than the EU. In fact the EU has had the opposite affect, just look at the Balkans and also Ukraine. In the former they refused to act and caused more problems, deaths and migrants to EU Member States and in the latter their interference and encouragement for Ukraine to rise up against their Government and Russia has resulted in mass death and destruction, and once again migration from the affected areas.
If you are voting to stay in the EU on the grounds of peace can I suggest that you think again, or do you agree with deliberately provoking the Russian Bear?
That is a totally ridiculous reason for staying in the big European wars are over and as far as getting dragged into a war that would not happen.
Stephen these Europhiles always come out with stupid comments such as the EU stopping wars ignoring the problems that have caused and NATO etc
UK should leave the EU, we are much better off just remember back in the good old days before we joined the EU.. UK was full of jobs i remember quitting a job and next day i had a new job but that wont happen now but it’s not just jobs everything was batter. EU has made UK very bad, if we leave, it will take long time till everything settles but better to stars asap then never..
I will ask one final time .
I call on all European posters on this site to please give us British the reasons why we should stay in .Please post individual reasons and in your opinion why these are important to us Brits.I am against the EU totally but I’m up for debate on various benefits we have from the EU,which obviously in my opinion is very little.
Please give your reasons because I have asked on numerous times and received no replies.
Brexit required ASAP. UKip in government, Cant wait for that to happen.
The British are not Intelligent enough to be in an equal European partnership.. They are still coming to terms with the loss of the Empire
I think you will find the opposite we are that is why we will leave we don’t anybody else were not weak like most other European countries.
It is such arrogant ignorant comments from people like you and the EU which is turning people in the UK against the whole socialist project of empire building.
It would be awesome if you left. Cheers!
yes defo/ out of eu….for lots of reasons……
The EU is got to be the most undemocratic organisation yes we can vote for our own politicians but the real big wig EU politicians cannot be voted out or sacked, we only have one vote against 27 other countries, the EU has caused massive unemployment of British workers, as it destroyed our fishing fleet coal industry was made uneconomic by subsidising coal from other countries, we would still have a steel industry, and as regards free movement of workers, has resulted in British workers not getting jobs as a lot of UK jobs were never advertised in the UK, so that the businesses could get cheap labour, a immigration policy that might as well say everyone welcome, why would anyone in there right mind want more of the same, the biggest worry is not the number of migrants heading for Europe it is the number of ISIS fighters traveling with them with no real checks, we now live in a country that cannot deport convicted criminals back to their own country, we can’t even deport known terrorists the sooner we are out the better, the money we get back from the EU is far less than what we pay in to the EU, and if we did not have to pay that money to the EU we could use the money for more useful things like the NHS that needs far more money, than the country can afford we would not have to suffer all the cuts to police and councils as we would have money to spar.
I’m in favor of leaving the EU and would like to know more about where the facts such as they are can be found for both sides of this debate so that i can talk to my family and friends about this with something more concrete than hearsay.
.
Time for us to leave the pointless EU.
https://www.facebook.com/UKIP/photos/a.283591398329424.67830.209101162445115/1025117930843430/?type=3&theater
Without any doubt…REMAIN IN!
Stay! Will be for the benefit both sides
That’s up to them, no?
‘Out’ Without a doubt!!
Opinion seems rather polarised. There are inevitably pros and cons to both options which we need to weigh up as objectively as possible.
Out for me
Eu. Mafia. Inglande. Out
OUT
it should be their decision (although this is like in many other places: the debate of independence just hides bad politicians lack of vision and efficient politics)
If there were REAL democracy and equality… It’s normal they want to leave though economically it is clear that it would be bad economically to leave
Leave asap
LEAVE !!!
Out
OUT.
No, stay in.
Out out out!
Stay
One of the possible reasons for Cameron possibly wanting to leave the EU is the increasing level of democracy in the EU ;) The Lisbon treaty increased the European Parliaments powers, while Camerons and other head of governments decreased. And when it comes to democracy, Britain isn’t the best example, take for example the fact that the Conservative party got only circa 1/3 of the votes while they ended up with over half of the seats.
Either way, I believe that an unified Europe is a strong Europe. Europes population is ageing and decreasing, economic growth is slow. How could a disunited Europe do anything, as even now we can only watch from the sidelines as Russia etc. are doing as they please. Less EU means more NATO=more USA
Should leave! EU is a failure!
We should learn from the mistakes made and build a stronger and more democratic Europe. And by not voting in the European Parliament elections you aren’t exactly helping cuz the EPP, which isn’t the most progressive party you know ;), is the largest party in the Parliament.
OUT
Britain stronger in Europe is misleading! We will always be part of Europe. It needs to say stronger in the EU. Then people will know what they’re voting for!
Definitely in, but only if they REALLY want to, which is the only way to finally make it work. I’d love to hear more from UK people other than UKIP voters see what they think
Remain as a christian country..that’s enough…
I vote Green…..I like socialism…..but the EU is a leviathan and England does not need it.
As a reminder, EU is currently led by the EPP, which is an (old) friend of your Conservative party
Leave and regain democracy.
Leave
Should leave…I wish spanish government was as clear minded as the british…the EU is a failure, good pnly for corrupted politicians and capitalists.
If you want to be part of a team that helps the UK stay in the EU join One Europe http://one-europe.info/uk-eu-referendum-volunteer
Leave asap..
View from a non-UKIP supporter. Britain’s redemption from its colonial past will never happen while absorbed in an uncomfortable relationship with the EU. The UK will never be a happy member of a centralising EU. We need to focus on putting things right with countries in African Asia and the Caribbean that we have exploited.
Anti-EU Brits and European Federalists have one thing in common. They want Britain to leave the EU. Cameron on the other hand is hoping to negotiate some miraculous new deal for Britain within the EU. My prediction: None of it will happen. Britain will vote to stay in the EU and the EU will not change considerably from what it is now. And I am not entirely certain if this is good or bad.
Britain, as well as all countries, should leave NOW this fake union
A BIG OUT .
Britain IN!!!
Firstly, as a member of the Labour Party let me clear up 1 point – Labour is as divided on this as any other party.
I believe that Membership of the EU is really all about whether you feel more European rather than British: personally, I do not and never have (or will) consider myself to be European.
I was only 10 when the UK voted to join the then EEC and 12 when the last referendum was held and the UK voted (just) to remain in the EC. I am now 52 and have never had a say on the matter.
I will vote for the UK to leave the EU regardless of any reforms that the Prime Minister may be able to get because I believe that any law(s) that affect this country should be made by our parliament and our parliament only. Likewise any defence, trade or diplomatic decisions affecting the UK should be made by OUR government.
It’s as simple as that!
Por aqui e so “jajao”.
You’re not getting a referendum, Cameron will say the negotiations were a success.
British friends and oldest allies, the question should be instead how can British strengthen their influence in Europe’s future, not as a single country, not as a Franco-German hegemony but as a Union of Democratic Nations and Cultures that respect and share the Human values.
British presence will always remind us how we (Europeans) were so close to the fall down the clift of nazism and the sacrifices you did to get Democracy back in our lifes.
Leave
Only UK people can decide that
STAY
Stay
One word OUT there is not a viable democratic arguement to remain a member of the EU.The cost per head to the average Britain is far mor per head than any other member Nation of the same size.Each yesr we cede more soveriegn national powers to Brussels.Tony Blair signed full to the Human Rights Law as his wife is a prominent Human Rights barrister…Thereby allowing ..rapists..murderers.and violent criminals to hide behind section 8.
STAY
I have yet to hear a decent argument for staying in. What benefit do we derive from the EU that we could not have by implementing a simple Free Trade Agreement? None.
Definitely leave.
Leave. Britain has become a scruffy poor place taking in all the worlds rubbish
Leave sooner the better
The EU is far from perfect BUT of course UK must remain a member!
Leave now save £55 million a day
https://youtu.be/o9Zwzwzhk2s
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Britain to leave the European Union.
It should leave
It is mainly leaders of big businesses that want us to stay in, so they can gain more profits. These profits are enhanced by immigration keeping the wages low. OUT.
Leave.
Without the EU, without the UN and without Scotland the UK would be an isolated little insular country. Exactly the opposite of what made it Great
Leave ….!
Leave and today would be good .
As it is we have to leave
It is to damaged for all of the country’s within it
Only some of the people just can’t see how bad it is
All this trade and finance talk
What about the people their lives their futures
We have to find balance
The French and Germans don’t trade with us by choice
They only buy their own goods wherever possible
Export their stuff to us
There is no integrity within the EU
Out !!!
Out !!!
Leave
Leave
Leave, please.
Leave, please.
Leave
Leave
Oh no it’s not
Oh no it’s not
IF the EU really was such a great Deal nothing on Earth would be able to stop The USA, Russia and China from joining it, buying it, taking it over or bombing it.
IF the EU really was such a great Deal nothing on Earth would be able to stop The USA, Russia and China from joining it, buying it, taking it over or bombing it.
Let them become prey of Putin!! 😄
Leave !
Leave.
Leave.
LEAVE… only big business benefits from the cheap labour keeping wages low and more profit for them. They in return give directorships and donations to MPs and cronies.
No-one and I mean NO-ONE has EVER come up with a reason to stay in just a tedious mantra. ….”we must stay in.we must stay in.we must stay in.we must stay in!”… and when questioned “er.because businesses say so.anyway if you dont agree its because you are not intelligent enough to understand”….
Stay!
Out. Foreigners smell.
Piss off Better off OUT
Wow, seeing that this post is from the staying in campaign, I can’t see any comments supporting it. Maybe EU supporting, brain-dead followers don’t use Facebook?
Out asap
Leave
I think we the UK should vote to leave because as an island nation we are used to being independent and we don’t play well with others.
I also feel it’s not financially viable.
I like the comments about kicking the UK out and all I can say is yes please, please kick us out that would be a good day.
I look at the terrible way Greece has suffered and if that’s EU freedom and democracy then I want no part in it.
Leave…? Where? It is only the name of the kingdom it used to be and soon it would count as much as Galapagos counts.
Are they really IN? :)
Stay in yes
Britain has to leave EU asap keeping its own currency…
Stay in.
Stay in.
Ander Anderson you seem to have an attitude mate, but then again you’re like every other keyboard hero, safe behind the screen, keep on with your put downs while u can….
all this about business leaving the uk if we leave the eu is rubbish , the eu has constantly put jobs and business at risk ,it decimated our fishing industry, it bribed ford to relocate in turkey,its green policies forced an aluminium smelter to relocate in inia , who knows how many more industrys have been bribed to move from our shores at the cost of many thousand jobs. business is vary fickle it will go were its needs are suited best, outside the eu and its rules and regulations we can make industry more welcome.
Leave and haul up the drawbridge.
.
We will leave because there is no reason to stay.
http://www.cityam.com/212802/ignore-brexit-scaremongers-we-will-thrive-outside-eu-if-britain-embraces-free-trade
dear brits we are glad you wanna leave the EU .. just do it!!! and don’t expect nothing more from us
Jens, on a net basis Britain was the 2nd largest contributor to the Eu budget 2013-14. It put in 10.8 b euro more into the pot than ot took out. What exactly is it Uk would expect if they left? Your comment is just bitter and twisted.
Cathrine,
Your comment is exactly right, unfortunately the politicians and media in many EU countries would have their people believe that we are scroungers not putting in just taking out.
We would have £20+ billion to spend as we like rather than have £9 Billion of recycled money that must be spent how the EU insists we spend our own money & then they expect us to put their poxy flag up in gratitude.
I am not a “littler Englander” but firmly believe that decisions on the UK’s finances, trade, foreign relations, defence and security etc. should only be made by the UK government acting with the consent of the UK Parliament. As such, I will be voting NO in the referendum, whatever the outcome of the government’s attempted renegotiations.
As it goes, both my late father and mother (who were Welsh and Irish respectively) voted NO when the UK voted to join the then EC in 1973 and they again voted No in 1975 when the UK voted on staying in what had then become the EEC.
This debate has lasted almost 40 years. How many more years do they need to take their final decision? Whatever the decision, hurry up. People are tired of keeping this issue opened for so long. We would like to focus on other problems, as soon as this issue has been finally worked out and concluded. Stop twisting around. Take your final decision.
.
The question is not ‘should we leave the pointless EU’ but ‘When will we leave, 2016 or 2017 ?’
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-majority-of-public-now-wants-a-brexit-poll-reveals-a6745561.html
No.
YES!!!!!!!, the sooner the better.
To my mind, British people should consider whether UK’s economy is viable and able to stand on its own feet or is it competitive in the world market without the EU. There is no doubt that the UK is a strong country but without opportunities provided by the EU, it would face difficulties and also great deal of money.
All the EU does is make it easy for large businesses to make large profit to the detriment of the majority of the public who’s wages are forced down by mass EU immigration, that is if you can find a job as a lot of agencies are not advertising British jobs in the UK, but only advertising jobs in eastern European countries.
Yes it should. And I hope my country follows the example.
Yes it should. And I hope my country follows the example.
No. They should stay… And runs German out!! This time the war is without guns!!! It’s in markets… But the alliance that Europe build in the 40’s is in needed to be restored!!!
yes
Better to stay in and kick out the Germans. Germany don’t belongs in Europe
No.
No
I don’t even know what’s the point of being in eu. They are absent in many political, social and economic events. They really don’t need eu.
every democratic country should leave european soviet union,
Yes.
Well,if GB stays in the rich will get richer and the poor poorer at a very quick rate.
Lol, there are lots of haters of EU here. Fools, you don’t even understand how lucky you are in being born in this period of European peace brought by the Union.
Let’s make together with UK the New Europe !!!
BIG YES.Switzerland is not part of EU,and it’s economy is the envy of Europe.
Switzerland that you refer is nothing without constant support of European countries so think again !!!
Countries are like families, some are more fun to be with than others, and after a while, you discover that sometimes it is not going to work, excepting when there is a loyaty factor, a connection… just the same with friends and your neighbors, right_? . Be sure to have this invisible connection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Crh7r7YJbM
EU should declare war on Russia and surrender few hours later. Thus creating a great country of Euroasia and rule Britain and the rest of the world buahahaha
The U.K. should leave the german eu ASAP.
Yes
Seriously, UK should take over Pakistan….. you see, all of them desires to come to the UK and live there, so it’s better that UK should reach to them and expel all immigrants back to Pakistan.
Happy New Year Debating Europe
The EU is in many respects similar to FIFA. A corrupt club, run primarily for the benefits of those it employs on fat salaries and bonuses to tell the rest of us what to do. It does this while the ordinary man struggles to put food on the table, a roof over his family and keep his head above water. Undoubtedly we will vote to leave. Sure, it will be tough to begin with, but this island nation is resourceful, highly skilled and hardworking. We can and we will go it alone and our economy, our sense of decency and way of life will become the envy of the world.
If UK leaves the EU they would be relying on the support of the UK and Scotland would eventually take their independence so Brittany will not be abel to succumb to it’s one need and the country will be the next in crises.
Complete utter rubbish our vision is global and to strike back up close ties with Commonwealth;the EU is dead to us will thrive free of the shackles of the EU.
Bloody Brits, save us from our misery and just leave the bloody EU! Hope we all follow soon. :D
Uk has never been european minded.should be out and associate member ,Greece too..
Brexit👍👍👍👍👍
Out we dont need countries who are not supporting our union. Sorry for the working people though for their hard headed government.
Leave…..
It is time to change the EU not to leave it. Most of the countries are not happy with it. This could be possitive, as no change has ever arrived without difficulties. EU is a fabulous idea and Britain has the opportunity to take part of it. Don’t waste it just for your nationalistic pride.
.
As expected its a complete farce.
Looks like we will be free of the pointless EU shortly :)
http://www.euronews.com/2016/02/03/deal-to-keep-uk-in-the-eu-receives-poor-reviews-in-british-press/
Good riddance I say.
<3 <3 dificult is a ? <3 <3 :)
Brexit 😃😃
What deal???it will be ignored by the unelected eu nobodies….the whole thing has been a shoddy sham act from the start.
The main problem is which UK which UE ?
I make difference between geographical europe and political european union which can associate european countries which has no european feelings..political union should be done with 8 or 10 countries without being stoped by the mild or out of the scope countries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQgG5yxPFfo
The best they can do is leave the EU because, no matter what they say, the Union will not change. Maybe if some countries start to leave, the corrupt, good for nothing politicians, will realise the failure of the EU.
c’est une grande question…
A big show!
for the benefit of the british it should leave and for the benefit of other EU memebers it should stay.
The draft deal will make no change to how the British people will vote. They will already have decided which way they will vote. So everyone is wasting their time.
LEAVE,and we will follow.
Britain should join in the European Single Currency
Maybe yes maybe no
The sham renegotiations are perfectly summed up by one of our own MEPs here:
http://youtu.be/7wkpGgYLIRs
Stay!! (….but I am not British)
Leave
Cameron could keep these negotiations going for months to come and make it appear he is ‘fighting hard’ for Britain.
Frankly the man is untrustworthy and what he is asking for means no change at all, because what he has in renegotiation so far has to be implemented by Westminster and equally can be halted by Westminster.
Effectively we would be in the same position as we are today, but with no possibility of another referendum. The decision made in this referendum is final and will not be changed unless a eurosceptic party like ukip get into government, which would not be a bad thing, but almost impossible to unseat the historical parties at this present time.
So it’s now we need to vote ti leave, then we make the rules and not some faceless burocrat in Brussels.
well, if this is the best deal cameron can make for britain from within the EU , the future does not bode well for the arguement of staying in to influence the EU, another fallacy Much better out
Absolutely! Spread the gospel.
Leave
Britain is welcome to stay or welkome to leave. Whatever they choose. I personally want the UK in Europe but Britain should understand that they can no longer have the hegemonic role they used to have 100 years ago. It’s better to build alliances within Europe which will make them stronger as well as the EU. I don’t see how they can compete with the USA and China and Russia and the EU on their own. We live in a highly antagonistic world and alliances and understanding is the thing to do rather than to go your own way as a country. But then again, it’s up to them.
Yes we European want leaving Britain
https://youtu.be/GqH21LEmfbQ
LEAVE URGENTLY.
You’re In time to leave!
I think if the U K lieve the EU…The UK will. Disintegrate.?
we should get out, and fast. The euro members of parliament earn enormous amounts of money on top of which they have expense accounts that would be enough for most common mortals to live decently, and all they do is discuss ridiculous laws that are totally out of sinc with at least half the countries that compose the EU. Europe does not understand the needs of any of the countries individually, it is based solely on hypothetical ideas that are little more than whims.
Can anyone tell me one good thing the EU has done?
You can’t have your cake and eat it mate – you’re already without the Euro – and it is quite apparent that your allies are the USA – so what more do we have to allow you to do? No it’s better if you get a visa to cross over into Europe….
Britain is the good example to follow, we european countries shall all renegociate : 1 ECB status and euro, or leave it, 2 Lisboa treaty or leave it . tax escape is at its sumum, small countries like Luxembourg suck dry the big countries that allways defended and allowed its existence. fiscal dumping destroys worthy countries for small unproductive and uncreative countries profit which help multinational corps escape our money to bahamas, Jersey or else, letting us the resulting debt to pay , the so called “national debts”, this is killing us and will lead to our running out of EU.
Stay please
A Brexit will cause a fresh Scottish referendum which will probably succeed this time , Northern Ireland will open up old wounds as the integration with Ireland will collapse , London as a financial centre will be further marginalised, and will be unrest amongst the remaining rump of England and Wales with Nationalistic near anarchy . UK should stay in , and do what every other nation does , interpret Brussels diktats in its own interests . Things like sending child benefit abroad are easy to put right . Just don’t do it . And invoke the opt out of ever closer union . How hard can it be , the Brexit is a nightmare scenario .
Leave, in the shortest time they can!
I think Britain should stay
Keep …awsy…it..is..a..big..brothel
Bar the usual insularity, UK’s merit is to have brought back to the table something now forgotten in most European countries: Sovereignty. Assuming that anything close to “European sovereignty” will never exist (one cannot dilute nations), it’s praiseworthy. Read also: http://www.mikeconomics.net/home/breakuptheeu/
Leave
Leave
Get OUT ASAP !!
Leave!
Depends on what is in it for us!!!!
In this moment being part of the European Community is absurd because it is an oversized faceless bureaucracy that is micromanaging everything and is responsible to nobody but themselves! All the countries has to pay to the Community an incredible amount of tax every year and for what? They are capable only on imposing sanctions and forcing tax yet there is a general impoverished situation and ever more jobless people! This not the Europe that we want and many countries wants to get out, like England, as they have nothing to lose! Never I seen so many people really bitter against the EU!!!
Stay only if it shares the project without continuously asking for special conditions
Like Crimea North east of Kiev?
leave!!!!
We need to leave and when the UK as left the rest will follow
Eu voto para saírem… mas acabam por ficar…. vamos ver, querem sempre ser diferentes , ainda vivem no tempo do chamado Imperio que roubaram aos outros pIs
We managed on our own very well for 900 years.
We want democratic, accountable government back.
Forza GB, andatevene da questa nuova UNIONE SOVIETICA EUROPEA
Want my democracy back,we lost it when we joined Europe hate my prime minister running to a bunch of fiddling cronies,trying to get tit bits from them,they will give us a few more,they can’t afford this golden goose to get loose.
Perhaps if people started looking at the facts and not believe everything the right wing press and media say then Britain would not be in the mess they are now….The conservative party want us out to fulfil there own agenda and that’s what will happen and those who vote out will pay the consequences….
ten reasons we would be BETTER OFF OUT…
1. Freedom to make stronger trade deals with other nations.
2. Freedom to spend UK resources presently through EU membership in the UK to the advantage of our citizens.
3. Freedom to control our national borders.
4. Freedom to restore Britain’s special legal system.
5. Freedom to deregulate the EU’s costly mass of laws.
6. Freedom to make major savings for British consumers.
7. Freedom to improve the British economy and generate more jobs.
8. Freedom to regenerate Britain’s fisherie
9. Freedom to save the NHS from EU threats to undermine it by harmonising healthcare across the EU, and to reduce welfare payments to non-UK EU citizen
Hahaha this comment hasn’t aged well
Leave I’m sick of paying my taxes to support spongers from eastern Europe
Sure! Immediately!
In 1973 and 1975 the British people voted to join and stay in what was a trading bloc with all the benefits that the then 9 member states acting together could bring. Since then, the EU (as it now is) has changed beyond all recognition and the British people have never had a say.
Personally, I believe that any deals on trade, defence, foreign affairs or whatever that have a direct impact on the lives of the British people should be made by the government of the UK acting in accordance with the will of the UK Parliament as a sovereign body, and for that reason I will be voting for the UK to leave the EU in the forthcoming referendum.
I don,t stay that the rest of europe allows to england things diferentes. For example, subventions for european citizen in england only after four years. But if they come to continental europe, they, ll have subventions of the beggining. So, bye, bye, england.
The UNION is the Force…..alone you shall be nothing
The EU destroyed Italy too..a sibgle markwt didn’t need a single currency and the stability criteria were not the criteria reqiested by the NORMAL ECONOMIC THEORIES to create a unique currency: trade with each, yes, but we miss labour market mobility and flexibility. We don’t have a common fund to budget need for European unemployment..DISASTER! Austerity DISASTER…LACK OF INVESTMENT, BANK.FAILURE..BASTA EUROPE…GERMANY DOES WHAT SUITS THEM.THEY GOT RICHER, ON US…NO THANK YOU.
The more i.know the EU, the more i hate it. You did a shitty job to kill us all. Go away useless EU
Zzzzz
Britain will debate staying in the EU for the 29th time again and then find out again that it is better for Britain to stay in the EU :)
Leave with the same money that we have, euro.
So that they can understand what it means.
For many reasons: Stay.
EU is a big bully!!!
The Great Britain has never loved to be in the EU. They have considered themselves to be so strong first because they live in a great island and second just because they have a national currency ( pound ) stronger than ours. It’s an opinion of mine, but we have never lived in a real EU. We have lived in a situation created for the interest of big corporations and worse lodges that have always made their gain without any consideration about all of us who continue living by honest work.
Yes, your are correct. Great Britain is a strong country and a great island nation. Take a look at our history. We can and will go it alone and leave the fat cats to continue feeding off the EU.
http://bracingviews.com/2016/02/02/a-surefire-recipe-for-the-end-of-democracy/
Don’t suppose those who are having a pop at the UK will be all that happy if the UK did leave, it means they might actually have to work and not rely on our money to keep their economies going!
Annabelle Joynson
I am English and want to leave the EU. I’m also aware that we have caused a lot of resentment by being an unhappy member of the EU. If we vote to stay, I see this uncomfortable relationship continuing in the same way. Ultimately, the EU is hostile to the concept of the nation-state and has no qualms about taking powers from nation-states.
When I go to the UK and people ask where I am from, their reply is frequently “ah, yes, last week/month I went to Europe…” ;-)
Leave
Leave..the best signal to Brussels to implement structural reforms….
We’ll I’m all for Britain in the EU but if they are going to go at it like this (pretending they don’t need the rest of Europe, it’s Europe who needs them) then fine!
But don’t let them negotiate as if it was on their turns, give them the harsh reality of either you’re in or out!
Give them the opportunity to consider the likely results of their actions:
1. Economy hits: banks and business leaves the island, trade deals are nullifyd and have to be renegotiated.
2. Civilian mobility with European countries gets severely more limited.
3. A lot of foreigners are surely expelled from UK but that will also happen to British citizens in the rest of Europe as they no longer will be allowed to live and work in the EU.
4. Might fann the flames of independence in both Scotland and Wales as both have quite the feeling of being neglected by the English…
Solution’s?
Nope don’t have a perfect one but my opinion is:
Let’s the English go, kick them out if we have to, but make sure that neither Walsh, Scotland or Northern Ireland is thrown out and that they know it.
This will deprave them of their belief that all of the people’s of the islands things as them and that they never is alone In their decisions.
Let’s give them the eye openers that they are only 40 millions of a total of 500, that they are only 1 great power among a handfull,
And as their economy, food supplys and standard of living plummets then they might understand that they are to closely tied to Europe to afford to stand outside.
You give some powerful arguments. But, as a net contributor to EU funds, I rather think your need for us to remain in the union has clouded your views. The EU exports more to the UK than we sell into it. So you need free access to our markets. We signed up for a trade agreement, not political union. I don’t personally want to be ruled by a bunch of corrupt politicians in Brussels. We can and will, God willing, go it alone. Sure, it will be tough to begin with, but as we start to mobilise our industries and start trading on level terms with the rest of the world, I believe that our future may be rather better than it is now. That includes less reliance on Chinese imports. As an island nation, we managed it in the past. Take a look at our history. I agree that we have had peace in Europe now for 60 years. I don’t think any European nation would want to go to war with us now. We have a habit of winning. So be friends and lets get on trading together.
stay
NO…! TKS ;-)
Si estan en la Unión Europea,que contribuyan a su fortalecimiento,potenciando como el resto de estados,mas unión en todos los aspectos,politicos economicos,etc. Si lo que pretenden es permanecer dentro de la unión,con un estatus de un estado sin compromiso,pero con todoa los beneficios,entonces sera mejor que se marchen o que los echemos el resto.
Perfecto, eso dicho de un Espanol que ha chupado todo de lo que le hemos dado y que su Pais esta en la ruina. Eres un sin berguenza y cuando te hechan del trabajo espero que no compras un billete a Londres a buscar trabajo.
Leave
STAY ! Europe should be united not divided.
LEAVE.
Stay!
UK joined to Europe only prevent the birth of a strong political and economic entity. For me they can go whenever they want. USA will buy an other star on the flag.
Kick them out
but..always with feet in two continents?!!!
If UK doesn’t want to be a partner in same laws and duties, It ‘d better leave.
Brexi, a British dilemma , they have the word
Ill thing is not good, don’t nou what demand is for staying bat definitely is not good
EU is a Mafia coorporation and UK is the Mafia HQ no matter what.
Out !!!
leave… RUN!
If they want “british extras” then they should leave. We need a union of democracy not a business-union.
STAY WITH POUNDS AND UK LOWS
Leave! And Portugal and Spain, and Greece too. How can anybody dare to call this trickery and this dishonesty (EU) any kind of democracy?
Britain, Portugal, Spain, Greece and all other countries who do not identify with this fascist Europe, sick and undemocratic should leave the European Union and create your own Democratic Union! Unless this is unrealistic and to be delaying the inevitable. We can not condone these shameful measures are forcing countries to give their own souls. Who are plundering the country and massacring its people. The big economic interests will lead people to death. We have the right and the duty to say goodbye to this little shame what is called the European Union.
I come from Italy, so I can understand your feelings. But I think that leaving is not the right solution. We should work together and fight, not also at a political level,but also as citizens, to obtain a more democratic union. For exemple we need to give more power to the Eu Parliament, because it’s the only institution elected by the EU citizens!
Hi,
The UK should remain in the Eu only if they accept our rules. I think that the Uk don’t deserves to be treated better than other Eu countries, beacause the European laws should be the same for all members. I can understand that they want more freedom about economical issues, but the same problem exists also for other european countries. We need to decide what we want to make with our Union: do we want an economical or a political union? If we want the first we can all claim for more freedom. But if we want a political union we need to accept more integration and work for a more equal and democratic Union. As a consequence if we choose the second option Britain should leave the Eu, unless they accept to be part of a stronger Union.
We’ll I’m all for Britain in the EU but if they are going to go at it like this (pretending they don’t need the rest of Europe, it’s Europe who needs them) then fine!
But don’t let them negotiate as if it was on their turns, give them the harsh reality of either you’re in or out!
Give them the opportunity to consider the likely results of their actions:
1. Economy hits: banks and business leaves the island, trade deals are nullifyd and have to be renegotiated.
2. Civilian mobility with European countries gets severely more limited.
3. A lot of foreigners are surely expelled from UK but that will also happen to British citizens in the rest of Europe as they no longer will be allowed to live and work in the EU.
4. Might fann the flames of independence in both Scotland and Wales as both have quite the feeling of being neglected by the English…
Solution’s?
Nope don’t have a perfect one but my opinion is:
Let’s the English go, kick them out if we have to, but make sure that neither Walsh, Scotland or Northern Ireland is thrown out and that they know it.
This will deprave them of their belief that all of the people’s of the islands things as them and that they never is alone In their decisions.
Let’s give them the eye openers that they are only 40 millions of a total of 500, that they are only 1 great power among a handfull,
And as their economy, food supplys and standard of living plummets then they might understand that they are to closely tied to Europe to afford to stand outside.
Let them free!
yes. I’d rather we have a trade deal with russia, as leaving the EU only to cosy up to the US just defeats the object in my opinion.
I’ve browsed through quite a number of comments on this site. There seems a pattern – posters with names that appear to me to be other than British seem upset by the fact that “we keep asking for special concessions”. Many consequently say we should therefore leave.
The are many posts from apparently British named posters who also seem to want to leave (in the majority).
To be clear – I will be voting to leave and I’m British.
The recent floods in the U.K. were made worse by our inability to dredge and clear our rivers and culverts (diktat from the EU re. saving river wildlife). Meanwhile Holland dreges as they saw fit to have a clause inserted whereby they CAN dredge if failure to do so could cause danger to human life.
Now, you could say our legislators are not as savvy as the Dutch – probably true. But they were given that requested concession.
If we leave the businesses will not also leave the UK. We are a massive market. We offer stability, safety, well established legal framework and competitive taxation rates. Business follows the money. They’ll stay.
We will regain control of our borders in so far as we can decide who enters the UK and for what reason. We could grant work permits to those holding the skills we desire. We could eject criminals back to their birth countries with greater ease. When travelling in remaining EU countries we will not suffer major problems at borders just as I didn’t 35 years ago – way before Schengen – when holiday/travelling in Belgium, Franch, Holland, Germany, Switzerland and Austria over a two week period.
Child Allowance will no longer be sent abroad to benefit children who may never set foot in the U.K. and hence return any benefit to us in the form of tourism or work/PAYE taxation. It can be used solely for the benefit of British resident children who one day will be working and paying my old age pension.
I honestly cannot see any advantages for us remaining in the EU as it heads in the direction of a United States of Europe. That’s not what I voted for in the 1970’s.
The EU will never succeed whilst it wastes so much effort and money in pointless ventures such as moving from Brussels to Strasbourg and then back again each year. That’s a concession granted to the French by the way and they refuse to countenance stopping it.
I totally agree with your views. There are precious few advantages for remaining in the EU.
It’s time to call time.
No.
#Churchill is the founding father of #EU, so an warm welcome for #UKinEU. read more http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/churchill/
You are somewhat correct about Churchill but the EU as it now is and the way it is developing would not reflect his imperialist view that Britain should remain a sovereign power with full rights and control over her own destiny.
U bent enigszins correct over Churchill maar de EU zoals het nu is en de manier waarop het zich ontwikkelt zou geen afspiegeling zijn imperialistische mening dat Groot-Brittannië een soevereine macht met volledige rechten en de controle over haar eigen lot moeten blijven.
Churchill would have been horrified at the effects our open border policy has had on security of these islands. Isn’t that what he fought for in WW2? Just think of the enormous cost to the British taxpayer of the security forces required to monitor less than friendly immigrants! Unfortunately, not all those who come here are of good intent. But while we are in the EU, we cannot stop anyone with an EU passport from freely entering the UK. And sooner or later, all those immigrants entering the EU will have passports that give them the right of access. The Australian points system may not be perfect, but it would give some measure of control.
I tend towards the OUT campaign BUT I am willing to listen to any positive reason to stay. It seems to me, having watched, and read a lot of politics over the years, going back to Enoch Powell’s speech in Walsall in 1968, that the IN campaigners are like prisoners who have done 40years inside and are scared to come out because they do not know what to expect on the outside. I think we in the UK are bigger than that. We always were and can be again without the handcuffs.
If the UK were to leave the European Union, its trade relations with the EU and the rest of the world would be affected.
Millions of jobs could be lost as global manufacturers move to lower-cost EU countries. Britain’s large foreign-owned car industry would shift into the EU and sectors linked to EU membership such as aerospace would also suffer. Airbus production could move to France and Germany, pro-EU commentators claim
Britons benefit from EU employment laws and social protections, which would be stripped away. Withdrawal from the European Arrest Warrant could mean delays for the UK in extraditing suspects from other European countries; and the UK already has some opt-outs from EU labour law, including the Working Time Directive
This is the usual response from those who fall victim to the “everything will fall apart” nonsense from those wanting the UK to remain in the EU who have failed to take into (or even acknowledge) that some of the largest companies in the world, such as HSBC, have already said they will keep their HQ in London regardless of the result of the referendum.
The fact that global manufacturers are based here has nothing to do whatsoever with the fact that the UK is in the EU. This is purely because successive British governments have made it financially attractive for these companies to locate their premises here, regardless of countless objections from our EU cousins. This position will not change if the UK votes to leave the EU.
On the point of the EU Arrest Warrant, is it not the case that already the Conservative government is minded to withdraw the UK from this provision in any case?
Also, the UK does not have an opt-out on the Working Time Directive but there is a provision for UK residents to opt-out as individuals.
If it was advantageous for any manufacturer to shift production from the UK, they would do it, regardless of whether we are in or out of the Union. So that one is a real red-herring. Manufacturers stay for a number of reasons, the primary one being a highly skilled and motivated workforce.
Most refer to UK law, the independence of the judiciary & the English language
Interesting comments on here. Being from a Spanish family who came to the UK back in the late 60’s ( i was born here and have a very pro-EU father) I fail to see the benefits of being in the EU. I worked in Spain for many years and saw how the Spanish went to work for half a day then spent their money on fine dining and expensive wines – when the crisis hit they started complaining and couldn’t understand why they had no money left.
EU would be great if we all spoke the same language, had the same ideology, same holidays and same tax and benefits schemes. But alas, we don’t.
Now to compound issues you have a fairly open minded German lady, a testosterone fueled French president and a rich conservative Prime Minister trying to come to an agreement in the hope of benefiting the average man in the street which will be acceptable to the citizens of over 20 different countries.
Im not sure if our great lord would be able to achieve this, let alone 3 dubious politicians, each trying to get one over each other. I think it is time for the UK to leave because the ‘romantic’ affair is at an end. The arguments have gone on for too long and marriage councelling had failed. The EU (France and Germany) were terrified when Greece voted on austerity so imagine the repurcussions if a nation like the UK did vote to leave. I think it would be like removing the first brick of a bridge and an eventual, likely collapse inevitable.
A lot of truth in what you say. Now that Cameron is back and has given a date for the Referendum, i think will will now enter the Spanish Civil war scenario, where father fights son, fights uncle, fights brother. It will be an interesting few months. Brexit will not mean that on the day the vote is counted, we move from what we have now to total chaos. The hundreds of thousands of business deals will still go on and it will probably take years to take back our control. During this time, we will be free to pursue new markets, revitalise our industries and get Great Britain an independent voice again. I admire Cameron for stating that if we vote Brexit, he will continue to fight our corner in the world, although I think he was fundamentally wrong to bring back his “peace in our time” proposals for new conditions to remain in the EU. These had no substance.
Brexit will motivate us to do better in terms of trade and make it easier to control our borders. Nobody already resident here will be thrown out or disadvantaged. Remember, we are called Great Britain because we are Great. We are an industrious, hard working and skilled nation. Look back at our history.
In the meantime, the pound is dropping in value and it looks like reality is failing the Brits. Must be easy to lose touch with it living on an island.
As I said before if we leave VAT should be done away with as it was a requirement of us joining in the first place , but do you think the government is willing to give up 110billion.? No is the answer . I would love to save 20 percent over night . And did you know stolen NAZI gold was used to form the EU after the war, and guess who is in charge now Germany.
Let’s have some respect for all those poor soles who gave there lives to keep our democracy and stop people like Cameron Corbyn lying for there own ends as for Scotland let them leave the uk if we decide to leave the eu
If we leave the EU there is a good chance that we might be attacked by Russia and if we stay Greece could collapse us because of there financial issues. What is the European Union to us, we might be a small island, but we are an independent, culture free country and even if we stay we still are. Look at Switzerland for instance it may be small but is very powerful and is known for being independent even if in Europe but not in the EU. I may be a 10 year old but I know if we leave we will not only be independent but the very first country in history to leave European country.
“I wouldn’t want to join a membership that wanted me as a member” Groucho Marks — joking aside– it’s really simple! Why pay for a ‘membership’ have good trade deals with different countries – stay independent and in control over your own country — Norway a good example! I vote YES to leave!
Oddly enough, Norway has sent the UK the message to stay in and that its own position is not a good one, as it has to comply with EU regulation but has no say in it. If it was possible to have good trade deals just like that, people wouldn’t be desperate to get in. It takes a total of 10 years of negotiations to become a member. And the UK itself receives subsidies. It doesn’t just pay (Northern Ireland, Wales). By the same logic people would never get married or form any kind of financial or social relations, so that they can be in control of their own without having to compromise ever.
They recon we will have to pay them money if we leave, fat chance what will the eu do invade? When we leave the whole lot will fall apart.When it was 5 nations it was ok all fairly rich but they let in 23 poor ones should have kept the Soviet Union going nothing but wars since they broke up never ever was a threat to us.
Brexit please. I don’t believe we have a voice in the EU and the lack of transparency is shocking people make laws directly affecting the UK which a legit UK citizen can’t do anything about. I’m not happy with the ever increasing red tape and stupid laws past by people i have never heard of or ever had chance to vote in or more importantly remove if the UK population loose faith in their ability. UK can trade more openly outside the jurisdiction of EU and become more competitive with an open market. Food will be cheaper if we leave as CAP is forcing UK to import food at a higher market value. We pay far too much for the privilege of being in EU exporting a lot less then we import. Their will be some employment negatives in manufacturing but think of the industries like fishing that could benefit from less EU Regulations. I keep hearing we are better of in then out because we can veto laws but we have very few left and lets face it no one in Europe actually thinks highly of the UK any longer. They don’t listen to any of our conerns and we have lost any power in EU now as so many more eastern European countries have joined. NATO is the only defence in Europe holding back Russia and if any one believes the European reactionary force would stop Russia from invading Europe you are sadly deluded. If the UK wants to improve its status in the world it needs to move to the up and coming markets e.g India or Brazil but to do this we need to leave EU to remove all the red tape. The only people scared of change are big business (multi international companies that are mostly owned by non UK citizens) and the profits all go to investors who live outside UK. The longer we stay in a failing EU the greater the chance the UK becomes a non entity on the world stage. I’m very sceptical about the IN campaign’s lack of facts and scaremongering tactics. So far all I have seen from the IN campaign is whose backing Cameron (who cares as they will have 1 vote just like you and me on the 23rd) I just hope the media (namely the BBC) starts to provide unbiased information unlike past coverage of elections and referendums of national interest.
If the UK leaves the EU nothing will happen to the EU except for those non-Brits willing to live in the UK because working visas will be re-installed for EU members. The UK is the less ¨European¨ from all the EU countries. It has not adhered to the Euro, it’s not a Shengen country and is still an Island. Britons say that the UK pays more than what it receives for being part of the EU. Maybe that is right but so is for all the other big EU countries. The EU is not a business is a dream project of knocking down frontiers. The UK has had its own share of EU wealth, statistics are tricky, but almost 2 million Britons live in other EU countries and about 2.8 million non-British EU citizens live in the UK. Some of later big investors in the UK generating jobs in Britain for the Brits. The EU has to make several reforms mainly on its inefficient bureaucratic system. The Euro has been a particular failure since inception. It has only worked for Germany, but allowing the UK to keep the Sterling has been a kind of subsidy for the UK. Leaving the EU is a big mistake it will have some effect for the EU, however it will affect more the UK who will still need to import from the EU, but will be affected in its already weak exports to the Continent. EU investors in the UK might think to move out from the UK.
Well as the news today includes reports of Macedonian police tear gassing immigrants, a situation that is highly unlikely to improve if we leave, are we not just falling into a surious debate to deflect from the realities?
I have always been pro EU, even if I am disillusioned by the too rapid growth of recent years. I have grown up with Europe, and frankly the UK’s stance has been to blame Europe for everything wrong, most of which is, was and will be our Government’s fault. So I don’t see how we will be better off, and I wonder who Boris et al will blame in the future if we leave.
If all these illegal immigrants where not coming over breaking every single rule on asylum there would be no need for teargas and soldiers. There is a fully legal process that MUST be followed. Every one is an illegal as soon as they refuse to claim asylum in the FIRST safe country i.e. Turkey. So my firm belief is turn the boats around and IF they reach Greece then ship them back. And as for FRANCE allowing thousands of invaders to ruin Calais people’s lives the officials need shooting. The only safe way is to vote out. Merkle has no kids so she has no stake in the future.VOTE OUT…..
Respect your heritage
I was one of the people who was conned into joining the common market and we were conned a few politicians tried to warn us but they were made out to be mad and it was not long after we joined we found out that they were not mad and everything they warned us that would happen did and that we had been lied to just to con us into joining in have seen the UK just go down hill since we joined we keep being lied to by people saying the EU has created jobs try telling our fishermen that they were told it would be good for there business as they would be able to fish in other countries waters so would alow expansion and just look what happened the EU brought in quotas that discriminated against UK fishing fleets in favour of other countries almost wiping out the industry in the UK similar things have been done to several other industries in the UK and we are starting to get the same old lies told to us again that were used to get us vote to join the common market membership has just been a disaster for the majority of the general population only the super rich and multinational companies have seen any benefit from membership of this totally undemocratic organisation that makes the majority of our laws that we can not change we need to leave as soon as possible and get the Great back in Britain.
I tend towards the Eurosceptic side of the debate. Please can someone on the pro EU side convince me that the UK should stay in this failed project. The economies of the members are not matched so the countries who have a realistic approach to hard work and payment of taxes (evil though they be) seem to be paying for the corrupt economies of the south of the EU and the ex Soviet Union states who have no concept of fairness.
well as Groucho Marx said “I wouldn’t like to join a club where they had me as a member” haha – joking aside— why has there be a membership? costing £50million a day– well, that’s what I’ve read!! It’s mad !! agreements can be drawn up without joining anything ! after all, other continents don’t have memberships to do trade! why Europe??? all the countries in Europe are so diverse in culture that it just hasn’t worked that well…there will be losers as well as gainers no matter what! BUT I feel we have more to gain by leaving!! just think where that extra money could go we save on the membership fees!
Does anyone remember that former French president Sarkozy warned that allowing an economically incompatible country like Greece to join the Euro would be a disaster? Well, his warning came true and those countries stupid enough to join that failed system are still paying for it with billions in loans that Greece cannot and never will be able to repay.
And now, if ever the British people needed proof of just how bad things have become in the EU they need only to take note of the fact that BMW, the German owners of the once great British firm Rolls Royce, have all but threatened their British employees with losing their jobs if the UK votes to leave the EU coupled with a French minister threatening to tear up the border agreement between the UK and France intended to deal with the so-called refugee crisis (which, by the way, was a bilateral agreement arranged outside of any EU involvement).
I say let’s get out of the EU now while we have the chance!
And if this leads to the Scots holding another referendum and voting to leave the UK, so be it. But this should be complete and total independence with no fallback on the remaining members of the UK and definitely no use of the Bank of England as the bank of last resort!
After the Second World
Germany, first ww1 & 2. A Germam banker after ww2 said. We can’t control Europe with war. It can only be done through the banks. So where is the euro bank. Yes you’ve got it. Germany ! Look up your history Germany has always wanted to control this continent.
The uk steals doctors from poorer contries in the EU, these contries need thier doctors, so it would be in the best intrest for the rest of the EU if the UK leaves.
Aleah
The UK does not ‘steal’ anyone from other EU countries but simply offers them a better paid job.
That said, you can’t have failed to notice that during the recent junior doctors’ strikes, large numbers of them plan to leave the UK.
Who will win then?
Of course there is uncertainty surrounding the future of Britain if it leaves the EU but that uncertainty will be no less if Britain stays in the EU.
We will be irrevocably tied to a cluster of largely failing economies and bound by the decisions and legislation of Brussels–based bureaucrats who have shown themselves to be inept when it comes to addressing the deep seated economic, social and political problems that are rapidly destroying Europe. One certainty, should we remain in the EU, is that the cost and bureaucracy of membership of this doomed enterprise will spiral upwards year on year until it implodes.
A crucial difference is that if we extricate ourselves from the EU we will at least be in control of our own destination, as we were for hundreds of years before the EU was formed. Surely we have better chance of making the right decisions for our own society and economy than those whose interests lie in perpetuating a failing institution?
Trade has been used to spread fear and doubt over the prospect of leaving the EU. Britain is the best performing economy in Europe, is recognised as the most competitive financial centre in the world and is a significant consumer of European goods – we are an important market for German cars for example. So we are in a strong position to negotiate acceptable trade agreements.
Issues such as Britain’s need for immigrant European workers have also been flagged, but the point is that if we extricate ourselves from the EU political system we can use our own judgement to decide immigration criteria and quotas. If we want European citizens to be able to live and work in Britain we can legislate accordingly.
Where is the confidence of British people in their own country and where is the recognition that, as a democracy, we should have the power to decide our own laws without being over-ruled and subject to legislation imposed by a remote bureaucracy ?
Britain had the good sense and foresight to decide against joining the Euro in 1999.
Should we not display the same prescience now, by seizing this opportunity to end Britain’s commitment to an unsatisfactory and doomed political alliance and replacing it with a relationship based on sound trading principles and diplomatic solidarity with our long-time European neighbours?
I like the idea of not having to pay VAT if we leave, it was a requirement of joining so should cease when we leave . How the government can manage to lose 110 billion I don’t know but fairs fair ,but I think they will find a way to screw us .
Oh seeing I’m on about VAT the EU states it can’t go below 15%. And a fact is that not long after the war the ECC was started with stolen Nazi gold and who do you think is in charge.
Having just heard a union leader stand beside DC and state that when leaving the EU we would lose all our employment and other safeguards, I take it that DC has told him that the current government would pass legislation to remove such safeguards if we leave the EU. What a scurrilous set of liars they are.
To leave EU
To leave EU
It is not Trading with Europe of visiting Europe that is objected to by the people wanting out, it is the Federalists we object too. When the UK votes out just wait for the rush to the door by many other countries.
Why do we have to spend hundreds of pounds to get a passport and have an interview to prove we Are Who We Are when anybody else can enter this country with basically a credit card I think this is not right why do we need the EU to tell us what we have to do when they don’t
“Europe is neither the monolithic threat portrayed by the Brexit campaign, nor is it the political and economic success implied by the Remain campaign.”
https://blog.aurorapartners.co.uk/2016/05/23/uk-eu-referendum-far-away-is-close-at-hand/
So here is a paper looking at both the in and out arguments of the Brexit debate. Not surprisingly, it reaches the conclusion that almost all of them are wrong and of no substance. This is of articular interest to the trade-deals, sovereignty and immigration dudes on here that say a lot and are full of attitude but seem to lack some basic understanding of the situation (and resort to name-calling and attempts to shift the debate to a personal one…).
So here are the ten myths in the Brexit debate by David T Llewellyn:
http://www.suerf.org/docx/f_3a066bda8c96b9478bb0512f0a43028c_661_suerf.pdf
When did the UK vote to join the EU? As far as I can remember the UK only ever agreed to join the single market – never this full blown EU club consisting of overpaid politicians and becoming more and more undemocratic each passing day. EU laws are passed, the UK implements them yet many of the other members ignore them. It is pretty much a case of ‘do as i say, not do as i do’.
Vote out people.
Yasmine
I read the document with some interest but note that it is heavily slanted toward the UK remaining a member of the EU because it is based on statistics provided by organisations that have been wrongabout the British and Eurozone economies before. And, as anyone can tell you, statistics can be managed to reflect any argument being put forward.
On that basis, it doesn’t change my intention to vote for the Uk to leave the EU.
However, I agree with your comment about name calling etc. because this is too important an argument to stoop to the level of playground bickering!
Hi David, out of the 10 points the paper is discussing you only have objections to one or two, you doubt those points but provide no specific evidence for your doubts (which organisations, what statistics and how have they been wrong about which countries in particular) and you also present the conclusion of the paper, that as in the Scottish referendum people are going to vote to stay in, as there is no specific alternative to being a member provided, as the motivation behind writing it…Sounds like you are in denial. But in any case the paper is there, writing by a former regulator and it is up to people to make up their minds. I am not going to tell people what to think or how to interpret things.
To think that the U.K. will gain control of its borders after a Brexit is a fallacy. Firstly it is evident from today’s immigration figures that the U.K. cannot control the number of immigrants from the rest of the world so how would it control those from the E U after Brexit? Secondly the U K will require a Trade agreement with the E U or ruin it’s economy. It won’t happen, the E U would have to make the U.K. an example so at best the Norweigan model would apply. I.E. full monetary contribution and full freedom of movement. Add to that isolationism of U.K. weakness of it’s position in the world, antagonism of the USA and Europe and you have a recipe for disaster.
It is interesting that the Exit campaign, whenever faced with an analytical or numerical assessment of the situation can muster no other response than ” I disagree” they clearly have no financial model on which they have based their position. I wonder why could it be that they are trying to bury the bad news senario in order to advance their personal political agenda’s?
Britain should turn away from such flagrant risk, remain part of Europe and influence and argue it’s case from within. If that can’t be done as the Exit campaign maintain perhaps we should be reviewing the standard and lack of ability our politicians possess.
The EU exists in order to forward the interests of its own citizens rather than those of non-members…isn’t it to be expected?
The U.K. Needs to vote out of Eu spending too much in Europe and not spending enough like the Nhs also we need the border control back too many people coming in on a very small island
Andrew, vote out and look for a Trade agreement and the U.K. will end up with the Norway deal at best . The E.U. cannot afford the sweet heart deal that is being suggested as it might lead to other countries wanting the same. If the U.K. wants to trade with the E.U. the U.K. will be required to pay it’s tariff and leave it’s European borders open as with Norway. It’s fools gold to assume that there will be more money to spend on U.K. facilities. There are always conditions on doing trade either between countries or companies.
2 main reason leave
keep power and autonomy in the UK and keep the numbers of migrants down as we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world! 1/2 a million coming in a year! 15 million people more since 1970 and growing– more houses, roads- over subscribed schools, pressure on NHS etc. we cannot afford the space never mind the money! Europe needs us! they will still trade etc. when we leave !
Danny Young,
Where are you?
Currently overseas
The U.K. Most definitely should not leave the EU. Our genuine status and influence on the world stage depends on our being part of the EU. Those advocating “brexit” want to sink Britain without trace in the Atlantic Ocean!
I know no different and after researching this I am voting to stay. Born in the 70s and this is my way of live – free travel etc. But a lot more to it as well.
No industry in the UK anymore, all in Europe, the cost of importing from further afield. Large companies (bank as example) have plans in place to leave the UK and relocate the banks in the Republic of Ireland which means redundancies and as the companies feel they are being forced to remove their business from the UK as we are not in Europe anymore, it has already been established that all employees will only be entitled to minimum redundancy. What about all the other european companies based in the UK, they may also follow suit and leave, meaning more job lost! And it goes on and on …………………………….
Let me say at the outset – I’m pro-Brexit. However, I’ve read (in full) the details written by David T Llewellyn in the link provided by Yasmine, namely:
http://www.suerf.org/docx/f_3a066bda8c96b9478bb0512f0a43028c_661_suerf.pdf
It’s heavy reading but makes much sense. It is a pro-Remain document, that’s very clear.
I’ll try to pick some bits of it and give my take, if I may.
We pay £134m a week after our rebate is deducted and the payments to farmers etc. So, if the UK government of the day subsidised the farmers etc. to the SAME extent that the E.U. currently subsidises….we’d STILL have that £134m a week spare.
Mr Llewellyn suggests that we could consider Remaining, attempt to reform the E.U. in a way that appeases the Leavers and if that fails – have another referendum. Didn’t Mr Cameron visit the continental capitals earlier this year to seek change? He didn’t get too far in my opinion so I fail to see how we’d get anything at all if we stayed with a threat to leave in the future.
The recent Scottish referendum had a very stark choice on the ballot paper: YES or NO. The Electoral Commission has calculated that such a stark choice gives a 10 percentage point bias towards the word YES. Notice, in the vote on 23rd June the choices are less start: Remain or Leave. Mr Llewellyn rightly reminds us in his report that 55% voted YES to stay in UK whilst 45% voted NO to depart UK. There’s your 10 percentage point bias Mr Llewellyn.
On the topic of Scotland voting again for indep. should the U.K. leave the E.U. They would presumably do so partly to then rejoin the E.U. This would be stopped for two reasons. One, the Scottish economy now (with oil as it stands) has a far greater indebtedness and deficit than permitted for any country wishing to join the E.U. Two, Spain would veto the Scots as allowing them to join would encourage Catalan to seek independence from Spain and then seek membership of the E.U.
Membership veto: Mr Llewellyn points out that any one of the current 28 member states may veto an attempt to join. That said, Mr Cameron is a very vocal supporter of Turkey joining the E.U. I hardly expect him to thus veto Turkey’s future hopes to join.
I am thankful to Mr Llewellyn pointing out that the U.K. does not always lose votes in the EU chambers. In fact, we typically vote in favour of policies 85+% of the time. We do however disagree with some policy areas FAR more than any other EU country – Budget, Foreign&Security Policy, International Development, Agriculture are the main areas we disagree. He concludes that “on average we have to accept policy outcomes from the EU for which we did not vote”. That to me encapsulates “Loss of Sovereignty”.
With respect to trade with other countries in the future Mr Llewellyn paints a worrying scenario – but so do Cameron and Osborne. What he fails to point out is that the UK sells more to the USA than they sell to us. And that’s WITHOUT any trade agreement. We haven’t had a trade agreement with the USA for over 47 years now. We could adopt World Trade Organisation (WTO) trading agreements with most of the world – and indeed, with the EU members individually after a Brexit. Our car exports to them would be subject to a 10% tariff, our Scotch Whiskey – 20%, clothes -12% and some beef products would be hit with 70%. However, we would also tarrif the EU in the same way. At the moment it’s cheaper to buy a BMW, VW, Renault or any other EU manufactured car than, say, a Hyundai or Mazda, or Toyota that’s imported from outside a EU factory. The E.U. imposes a 10% tariff on these. Our booming car producers currently export more than ever. The SSMT website shows a wonderful graphic: 77.3% of cars manufactured in the UK were exported. 57.5% were exported to the EU. But, growth in our car exports to the USA has risen this year (26.5%), to Australia (53%), South Korea (55%), Turkey (41%) and Japan (35%). This shows us that life beyond the EU is thriving – and buying – and buying British.
To sum-up, I believe there are two pivotal aspects in this Referendum: The Economy and Immigration.
Let’s take the Economy. There are two possibilities, namely, it can improve or decline and we’ve had endless number of “experts” giving their view for both Remain and Leave. There’s NO proof they will be correct – nobody really knows for sure.
On Immigration however it is KNOWN for a fact that if we stay we CANNOT refuse access to our country from any existing (or future) EU member states’ populations.
If we Leave we CAN absolutely determine who we choose to allow into our country – and from where – and in what numbers. We do however need a government at that time to act in the way the electorate dictates and make use of those Powers of Sovereignty to control immigration.
If they don’t we simply vote them out at the next General Election – something we are unable to do with the EU Commissioners.
Hi Mike, I am glad that someone has taken the time to read this paper and give it a serious consideration. You say it is pro-Remain but this is the case with most Regulators, including the Bank of England, and financial institutions and companies, even though they would not admit it publicly. However, rather than reject their arguments with the excuse that they are pro-Remain (and therefore not to your liking) don’t you think it would make more sense to accept them simply because those opinions have been reached on the basis of thorough knowledge? A lot of the other stuff you are mentioning already is being addressed in the paper, so I am not going to repeat it.
I find your point about voting tactics very interesting and have previously expressed myself against such referendums as being a means of manipulation of public opinion.
Another point to note, where I am, in Greece, Japanese and Asian cars are cheaper to buy than European ones. I have been told that European cars cost more as the manufacturers have spent more money on safety testing…
I disagree that EU membership simply is about economy or immigration. I personally like it that so many non-Greeks have come to live in Greece in the last few years and I know that Greece would have been worse off without the EU bail-outs. But the EU is a political project and it is all about whether you share the dream or not. If you only think of it in terms of what you will gain out of it financially, then I think for everyone’s sake you should leave. However, most people are not aware of the UK’s contribution…and I think that the EU and Greece in particular needs the UK badly to stay a member so that it pushes through with its demand to stabilise the financial system before it joins the Eurozone in 2025 (date is set to change due to slow progress). With regards to not always getting your way at voting, well, that is called democracy. The majority wins…Do you like democracy or not? Or do you only like it when your way prevails?
No vote Brexit is better than an open closed economy
The EU should impose a surcharge tax on products and services imported to the EU from all those countries that decide to leave.
And we would reciprocate Happy Days!!!!
we shouldn’t leave the EU!
The simplicity of your statement cannot be denied but where is the defensive argument for such a statement: as one who will vote to leave the EU I would not just say “vote leave” and let it at that.
And, without wishing to sound like a little britainer, your name doesn’t exactly sound Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Gaidhlig or Irish. So do I take it that you are from the EU yourself which, by the way, I have no objection to?
The simplicity of your statement cannot be denied but where is the defensive argument for such a statement: as one who will vote to leave the EU I would not just say “vote leave” and let it at that.
And, without wishing to sound like a little britainer, your name doesn’t exactly sound Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Gaidhlig or Irish. So do I take it that you are from the EU yourself? Which, by the way, I have no objection to having had a French grandfather.
Why are you asking then David, if you have no objection? You might not have meant to but you do sound very little indeed…do you seriously think people here post under their real name?
Hi. No. Not at present anyway. Thanks.
i say yes….
I am old enough to remember the time before the UK joined the EU, and looking back then this was probably the wrong decision as we then lost our longer standing trading partners in the Comonwealth. But join the EU we did and while there are some weak points in being a part of the EU, that the strong points in being part of the EU in my view far outweighs the weak or negative points.
I do wonder why the other countries within in the EU are not holding a referendum themselves to determine if the UK can remain part of the EU.
We are an island and in common with many other islands across the world this for some reason does create an island mentality, while this does not create divides it does create a distance as though we want to join in but feel more comfortable in watching from the side.
Having traveled across Europe and also the far East on business for many years, I see so many south east asian countries with wonderful peoples and historic cultures smothered by American colonialism, whereas in the larger part Europe has moved on from its colonial past and seeks to protect its respective cultures and the environment in order that our children and children children can have a future.
The one area I deeply question the EU on is its migration policy, which is having a negative impact on all EU member states, while we cannot ignore the plight of many of these immigrants, we should not be just accepting in to the EU on a permanent basis but more of a “until the crisis” is over. I know it is not that simple and I know it is a very difficult situation and I do not envy those who have to determine what is the best way and how best can we protect those fleeing tyranny.
For myself I do believe we should remain in the EU and also try to be more inclusive and try our very best to be less dependant and accommodating of the U.S.
1) We don’t even know what most of the parties that are voting on European stuff stand for – how democratic is that? 13% is from UK, the rest from Europe with manifestos and agendas we don’t know about. The rise of the Far Right across Europe is a fact – UKIP themselves represent the largest party from the UK – do you want these kinds of parties voting on decisions that affect us?
2) If you’re OUT, you don’t necessarily believe everything the OUT campaign are saying (and they are saying some rubbish). Just like if you are IN you don’t necessarily believe that there will be World War 3 if we leave. We only have one group “representing” our view – and we had no choice in who it was – I vote out, I am not voting for Nigel Farage etc
3) Forget the money, even if we have to pay the same net amount to stay part of the free trade area, we won’t gain anything financially (from EU) but we won’t lose anything either. They’re going to refuse that kind of money?
4) Forget the money – some things are more important – like do you feel in control of your life? No wonder we have voter fatigue, all these different layers of government and all blaming each other for their shortcomings. Who actually knows who is responsible when something goes wrong? And really I just want to vote once or twice for people to sort out things that need sorting out, not micro voting on every small detail. Local government blames central government for lack of funding, national governments blame EU for inability to do certain things. You just don’t know who is accountable for what.
5) Being OUT does not mean we won’t collaborate on a whole bunch of important topics like environment, migration etc. Unless they throw their toys out of the pram – but then whose fault would that be?
6) Whatever the disputed levels of migration are this year and last year, the fact is it could be 5 times that next year or the one after that and there is nothing we can do about it. Net migration has been rising. Immigration is great – in manageable numbers. Governments cannot plan macroeconomically large infrastructure projects (5-10 years) like schools, hospitals, roads etc with such large movements of people. And what if they build a whole load more houses, more schools etc – only to see the huge movement of people swing away from UK in 5 years time and go to wherever in EU is doing well then? House price slump, empty hospitals and schools and no-one to pay for them!
7) Whatever the reason for shortage of housing, long waiting lists (government, immigration, old people – who knows), the simple fact is that adding another 300000 people is not going to help! Trains don’t get longer, platforms don’t get wider, roads in general don’t get more lanes (not soon enough anyway) and we can’t afford more teachers, nurses etc as we are already in debt and are cutting back to pay for the excesses of previous years.
8. Everyone has a veto. Takes ages and loads of backroom deals to get anything through and then you still end up with stuff like TTIP. 5 years waste of time and money
Strangely enough, the main reasons that the leave campaign give for leaving are the reasons why we should stay. Vis:
1) Economic. It costs us to stay in the EU. Not the £350m/week lie that the leave campaign has been claiming since the start, but it’s still a lot of money. One of the points of the EU is that it’s a community of rich and poor nations in which the rich contribute to the poor. We’re one of the richest, and the EU is a very effective vehicle by which we can contribute to the poor ones. To cite that as a reason to leave is greedy, selfish and money-grubbing. We’re here to do our bit for our neighbours.
2) Decisions made by an unelected commission in Brussels. The commission keeps in check all those morons whom we elect into Westminster. The UK has always had a strong constitution because of a well evolved system of checks and balances. One of the most important of the checks and balances was the House of Lords – this provided a balance against democracy (just think about the consequences of unfettered democracy for a moment), but the commons despite being just ordinary people (the clue’s in the name – “commons”) have seen fit to progressively reduce the power of the Lords in recent years. Thankfully we have to EU to take up the slack. Most of the laws to come out of the EU are worth having, and I doubt we’d have anything like as good legislation left to the whims of the commons.
3) Immigration. Immigrants as a whole contribute much more to the UK economy than they withdraw in terms of benefits and other services. Furthermore the more people working, the more people who want to buy goods and services which in turn leads to more jobs, etc. in a virtuous circle. Plus with the pensions time bomb we’re going to need as many young people as we can get. The free movement of people in Europe is a very good thing. What we need to do now is make the UK as attractive a destination as we can in order to get as many here as possible.
It seems, as I read the major publications of Britain, nothing is different in Britain than America. In my opinion, leaving the E.U. Is a ‘no-brainer’. Save your country! The constant fear tactics, employed by your media, a media owned by the very elite who benefit from your citizens staying in the E.U., are nothing but one-sided, completely partial propaganda. The poll numbers are fabricated. I’ve seen polls in ‘alternative’ British blogs and they all are IN FAVOR of leaving by 10 to 15 points. And, like the crap America is besieged with about Donald Trump, those actual numbers would be higher (to leave) if the mass media wasn’t plummeting you with lies! You do not need the E.U.to help your trade position! You would prosper by being INDEPENDENDENT of those other countries. Britain has far too much to offer. The E.U. Globalist, New World Order liars would have to trade with you and you could, if you had leaders who weren’t bought and paid for by the New World Order and the U.N., add tariffs to those goods. It is Britain who hold ALL the chips! Those fools have you so confused, you don’t know whether you are going! As an outsider, familiar with the exact same tactics being unleashed on Donald Trump, clearly the only option for President if America do not want to be forced into Globalism and an immigration crisis that will crush us. But the entire media, owned by the same elite who own your main papers, have tried as hard as they can to destroy him. We have enough people,,just enough,,who are not fooled by the media. But it will be close. America and Britain, our closest allies for hundreds of years, must be aware that our politicians do not care about us. Most of them are bought and paid for. The media have propaganda down to such an art that they can convince people, with little effort, that something terrible for them is best for them. Listen, these Globalists are quite far along in bringing their satanic New World Order to bear. It seems less British people are aware of this plan. They want our Constituitional rights and your Magna Carte rights. We must stop them. Our leaders are our enemies. B.T.W.; Vladimir Putin is NOT a threat to either of our countries. Do not buy that garbage. He wants peace with our countries, but the military industrial complex in America must keep us scared so the elite can continue to get rich manufacturing weapons, and selling them, often, to our enemies……Good Luck my friends.
This is the crucible that will test the mettle of the British, to tighten their belt, and work smarter to pass the fires of uncertainty. The world is changing and if Britain can weather the storm, they will again if played smart be the Captain of their fate. You cannot fall of the bottom. You can only rise up!
The outcome radiates an immense absence of clarity and the impact will keep the world busy for at least a decade. Lawyers will be highly solicited as the dream for radical change of the UK’s triumphant Brexiteers will prove to be unrealistic. The surgical desire for Britain to urgently cut the links binding it to continental Europe is absurd.
The dream that the UK will be able to rediscover its former glory is quite astonishing in an era where internet has no borders. The British voters for “OUT” are clearly misguided and drowned in the belief that Britain can once again regain the common wealth glory standing at the centre of an international trading system wider than Europe. Day dream?
On the other hand this referendum serves as a loud wake-up call for the project “Europe”. How the 27 remaining EU member states will react is impossible to predict. There will be more voices of the same as rebelling against the current way “Europe” was evolving has many critics. Time has come to be transparent and clearly communicate what the European Community stands for and the impact it has had on regional developments together with a crystal clear vision for the future.
It’s going to be a hot summer as it will see the beginning of a tumultuous political crisis setting many EU member states against one another, and will certainly reverberate around the world. Europe already only represents less then 10% of the global population and not being united will further deteriorate any possible influence on a global scale. Having Britain at the back of the queue for the international trade agreements will push the Old Continent to the side lines of influence. The pound is sliding fast and a quake in the global financial system will be felt for years to come. Households will suffer.
And, in all doom scenarios there is light in the tunnel. Britain’s exit will trigger pressures across the Union to redesign the model and secure global credibility. This leaves the EU and its member governments with a difficult balancing act and coming clean on accountability abandoning all secrecy veils covering the Council and the Commission. They must avoid panicking and permitting the UK’s withdrawal negotiations to exacerbate euroscepticism elsewhere. And they must at the same time create a more positive climate so as to move the European project forward.
What is done cannot be undone as people’s jobs are already being moved to Germany and some have been given a week to relocate. They will not be back.
Some folk here have lost the fact that Britain is still a democracy, and as such we all have differing views. One point is, if any member totally feels that a change to
the laws etc are not in their interest, they will be forced to adopt these new laws
even though they would be detrimental to that member country.
Germany having the biggest population, will’ and does have the power of a battering ram to carry its own interest’s before the interests of many smaller populated members, effectively controlling the whole of Europe without firing one shot in anger.
A lot of bulls**t and what’s this crap jobs already being moved to Germany?
Uk has lost enough jobs because of EU loans to companies moving to other countries. yes the EU has cost us thousands of jobs already.
Need to hurry the establishment up to go with article 50 and get on wioth the jon but wouldn’t put it past that lot to ruin the country and blame it on brexit, Cameron throwing in the towel because brexit is hard work shows he is not PM material.
We should use the UKip Manifesto the best one every written and verified, so what are we waiting for.
I think we can all now see how undemocratic the EU really is. They (France and Germany) don’t want to start to negotiate until Art 50 is activated. I think they must be the most arrogant fools to think that the UK will not negotiate their own trade deals first – see how the land lies – and then do what they need to do. The UK is holding the cards now and the EU know it. Reading between the lines I suspect Germany will agree to certain issues but France, with Holland at the wheel, will do its upmost to cause the UK as much pain and suffering as it can just as the coward De Gaulle did when he vetoed the UK’s original application to become members of the common market. This, even after the UK, had given him refuge and sacrificed their son’s souls for the liberty of France.
Today we see the real leaders behind the face of the EU mask and as they pat each other on the back I hope others can see through their cloak of deceit and manipulation, then understand who these people really are.
The EU hold the cards, not us, they told us before the vote and twice already this week that there will be no deals with them esp if we do not allow immigration from Europe. A lot of people who voted to leave did so because they wanted to stop the high level of free movement, it was always obvious that the EU would not offer us free movement if we did not allow it to the UK. I believe the problem will get worse now not better.
Farage made the UK look like fools yesterday when he made his speech yesterday it was terrible. I hope this bloke does not get a seat in parliament because if we end up with Johnson as PM and Farage in this cabinet (which is not really possible, unless he pays for a seat) we will be a laughing stock!
I also think it is strange how Johnson seems to have a disappeared into a hole and has only emerge for 2 very short periods since the voting result and on these occasions he was not full of confidence to his followers, if anything the opposite he seems to go back on his words! The only person who is out celebrating the win is Farage and no-one else, I expected Johnson to be gloating and also be out letting his public know what he expects to do now and his plans to become PM, I would of expected a plan to have been in place if we left, or sorry he didn’t expect the public to believe him!
T.C. you speak for yourself. Farage didn’t make the UK look a laughing stock. You fail to see that he speaks for a lot of people in the UK and Europe. The thing is you just don’t like it. I’m glad we are leaving the EU, just sick of whingers like you. You lost, you didn’t try hard enough. Keep telling yourself the EU is so great and everyone who voted leave is a racist if it makes you feel better. For me I have never seen the point of the eu and glad we are leaving
yes
The EU ‘power partners’ do not hold immigration as a big problem because it does not affect them as much as it does us. They failed to listen and continue to do so blaming everyone else and not taking responsibility for their inactions. The figures are clear to see, the UK’s average annual growth is 484,000. For France it is 261,000 and Germany 256,000.
Now look at figures predicting how many years it will take for these countries populations to double at current levels: UK = 92 years, France = 177 years, Germany = 220 years.
We have no choice but to take control of our borders for the sake of future generations. If anyone can tell me how we would be able to cope with such increases and how we would pay for the schools, hospitals and other infrastructure needed then I will gladly listen and perhaps be persuaded otherwise…..
I suspect however that if we voted to remain in the EU, and when we reached breaking point, we would be reminded, ‘well you had your chance but voted to stay’.
no reason not to keep the status quo re single market and free trade except petty mindedness. Supposedly they are doing it to prevent other member states calling for a referendum. So the free trade single market is the only thing keeping them in? No other virtues to extol? That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.
Freedom of movement was designed as freedom of movement of labour specifically, and this is just modern day colonialism anyway. The exploitation of human resources instead of natural ones for the benefit of the rich west at the expense of the countries who see parents leave families, skilled workers leave for more money etc.
It could be described as a giant Ponzi scheme. Recruit more and more immigrants to pay the taxes for the pensions that are becoming more onerous – where does it end? Not nicely.
In the meantime, invest more and more in infrastructure to avoid pressure on resources (if only……). But wait, what if those people then decided to move away somewhere else where the money was – empty schools, empty hospitals, empty houses with no-one to pay. There has to be a limit on numbers that can move (in and out), otherwise you just can’t plan the investments you need to on a national scale. These flows have multiplied significantly over the last 20 years. No point in saying they can’t do the same over the next 20.
Only time will tell now, but I suspect our immigration issues are not going to get any better and we could be “we had the choice to STAY” but you chose to LEAVE. Who knows – its a waiting game now and can only home on a better future x
Now that the EU army that was being denied by the remain camp has been announced I wonder how many of the youngsters that were winging because we voted to leave have realized that if we had voted to stay would have been conscripted into the EU Army
An EU army can be created BECAUSE you left.
Indide you had a veto.
And armies don’t use conscripts for decades.
Brexit is a stupid decision…
“Crying is all right in its way while its lasts.But you have to stop sooner or later,and then you still have to decide what to do.”C.S Lewis
Life is sacrifice,life requires great decision to have a better future.We need rethinking about our Brexit war going on,British people made their own choice of how to live because they are the most important in this matter.So why are politicians and government making it more difficult and complicated.
We need a change in Britain which is Brexit !!
“The problem ,simply put,is that we cannot choose everything simultaneously.So we live in danger of becoming paralyzed by indecision,terrified that every choice might be the wrong choice.We have our choices to make because of a better future for Britain.We can’t be British and family,children benefits been cut when European and refugees are getting help!More than 400000 British people are homeless and helpless.We need to protect our interest because this is our only home.
Because unlike the brainwashed DM readers in the street politicians know that the “people” voted to be – to use a dcientific term – fucked over.
Once the EU protection is gone workers will be stripped of all rights and so on.
It is likely that the EU will cut Britain off from Europe as much as it can, which will be very bad news for Britain. But of course if Ms. May persists in wanting to sign a leave notice before the terms have even been discussed, we can’t expect any good news at all. A terrible day for Britain, and spineless of all politicians to take the very badly informed referendum as a directive instead of turning their own brains on for once. Brains? Oh, sorry we were talking about politicians, not Statesmen. I am ashamed of Britain today :(
Simon,
The rules of the club are that until you have given notice of leaving no discussions can take place.
If you follow the news you will know that the UK has attempted to discuss some issues with the EU including confirming the rights of UK citizens living in the EU and EU citizens living in the UK. The EU has refused all such discussions and agreements.
So explain how you can discuss anything if a) the rules of the club prohibit it and (b) the other side refuse to discuss or negotiate with you?
Mrs May should not disclose her position prior to commencement of the “real” negotiations with the EU. I would not suggest a price I’m prepared to pay to a tradesman when seeking a quote. I’d also obtain several quotes for the work.
The Government are making tentative approaches to receptive countries to seek trade deals post Brexit. We cannot sign any such agreements until we’ve left the EU…..but we can certainly start talking informaly beforehand.
I am confident that money will win out at the end of the day. Big businesses will not be thwarted by politicians and if it’s in the interests of the very large European and UK conglomerates they WILL keep trade links on a sensible level. If, however, we seek a Norway style continued access to the EU single-market we’ll equally have to continue to pay huge amounts to the EU. That ultimately costs every person in the UK as it’s our tax money that’s being sent south to Europe. In the worst case scenario, if some, or indeed all, trade with the EU is subject to WTO tariffs I suspect the true net cost to us will be negligible and certainly less than the EU “contribution” we would otherwise need to pay to emulate Norway.
Incidentally, our trade with nations outside the EU will rise even faster than at present when we leave the EU. We’ll also have a far broader range of trading partners and this will avoid such heavy reliance upon the EU which is, frankly, not performing anywhere near as well as other parts of the world.
It is clear the Eu are not going to play ball. Better to get out without a raw deal and go for WTO rules.
The Germans destroyed Europe in the 1900’s. The French ran away with their tails firmly stuck between their legs.
Short memories for those who like to forget.
Make the UK a tax haven for business until we bridge the trade gap.
The Germans & the French have been milking the UK ever since the 1945, with their dirty tricks with the diesel cars, I would put a charge in place for nhs for the deaths they caused and they should re-import the vehicle’s back where they come from. The UK buy more from EEC than they buy from us, I believe a lot EEC countries are waiting to see our we get on with the German & French’s nearly half the French people in hearts are concern about the Germans. The EEC have grown to fast in Eastern Europe that’s concern of the Russian’s and they eastern Europe see that as more trade for their smoking cars.
If the Germans and French were found out about their smoking cars 3/4 yrs ago the boot would be on the other foot, they would/should bending over backwards to keep them in the EEC. I see we should get funds from the EEC for arm-forces, 2 world wars that our fathers did for us, Thank God. And promote, The Commonwealth Countries as we should done when joining The German’s & French EEC until they want us to dig them out again as our fathers did for them in 1914/18 & 1939/45 we have been looking after the French for 100’s years.
The quicker we get out the better, the EEC have been milking us ever since we join in with them and most of them like Spain, Italy, Greece, Holland and couple of Eastern Europe countries are the same. Pull the plug now, the quicker the better will get the trade back with Australians/New Zealand, Canada and a couple of the European, The Germans will okay they get some trade with the Russians they will take them under their wing. It is not like when we join the EEC they was two separate German’s, now much they paid to increase their country, remain me? It is two EEC countries. One for the Germans and one for the others. Don’t pay the EEC for leaving and increasing their trade with us not a penny more, the electorate will become another Russian state as will Germany and France in time.
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Pie in the sky new trade deals where the proposed traders will also cherry pick. Uk in danger of years and years of cherry jam to wade through and meantime what do you think will happen to the cost of living.
Britain with NI is heading to a Banana Kingdom so free the EU from that bunch. Every week another Brexit while onsolving problems with housing, poverty, public transport, NHS, and so on. Britain is the Greece of Western Europe. EU not again the same mistake get rid of immature UK.
I think British people are lead by blind should be given the opportunity to vote with consequences prime minster should resign
We were given the opportunity to vote Jaswinder Smagh. It was called the REFERENDUM. We voted to leave. Why should we have another vote?
We really will survive outside the E.U. Most of the world does. If you look critically at the countries that will remain in the E.U. after our departure, quite a few have serious economic problems. Some will get worse – Italy for example. Greece is in trouble – in the main because of the Euro. Germany is the beneficiary of the single currency. I firmly believe, as we approach the 100th anniversary of the end of WW1, that Germany failed to dominate Europe in the 14-18 war, amended its tactics and nearly succeeded in 39-45 but has not won an outright victory. IT controls Europe with the passive acceptance of France, Belgium and Holland. There’s no future for the UK in a Europe dominated by Germany.
We turned our back on the Commonwealth when we joined the “common market”. Maybe they will see beyond that and accept us back as strong, reliable trading partners. With punitive tarifs removed from many food imports from outside the E.U. we’ll see a reduction in food costs from new Zealand, Australia, Canada and India.
Let’s seize the opportunities that lie in the wider world and stop whingeing.
It is not a case of them and us. Britain IS a bigpart of the EU and has or at least had a significant say on what is decided so why does Uk want to be cut off and have no say. Take backcontrol ? PerhapsTake “better“control but stay in the eu? The EU has nothing to do with funding or running the NHS nor the schools or universities nor how the roads are filled with tarmac! Other eu countries have bettercontrol of immigtation than Uk .Regret to say thatNorway and Switzerland have different agreement with EU because of their wealth not the other way round. Take your head out of the sand and face the facts that staying in the Eu is a better option and preferable for scotland ireland wales and england also better for business, research, communication with Eu plus etc etc. Stay in europe -please.
Overall, this idea is so shitty and David Cameron shouldn’t have been so desperate to be chosen to make a big decision. The referendums should help as 80% of the country DO NOT want to leave.
80% do not want to. Leave where did you dream that rubbish up did you forget we have a ref. We are leaving end of story good luck EU you are going to need it. David Cameron made that decision because of the threat of ukip, UKips rise was because we wanted the ref and got it. Its over EU will be gone on the next 10 years just feel for those in it that don’t want it.
Whilst the referendum result was close at 52 – 48 it must be remembered that in a latter General Election I believe 83% of voters voted for a party that had commited to leaving the EU. No mention was made of a deal then.
Good point Bernard. Sam’s 80% NOT wanting to leave couold however be a combination of the 48% who voted remain in the ref. PLUS all those people too disinclined at the time to cast a vote either way.
I voted LEAVE. I question how many commenters on this thread failed to vote at all in the referendum?
At the very end of March – at the “wire” – there’ll be a deal of some sort cobbled together. It’s how negotiations work. It really serves no purpose to avoid a deal as businesses in the EU and in the UK will suffer.
However, the EU commission cannot be seen to be bending over backwards to accommodate us as there could well be a rush for the exit from several other disenchanted, current EU countries.
The recent press scares about the stalling economy are, to a great extent, a result of the wider-world slowdown caused by the USA/China trade dispute. It has been widely reported that Germany, France and Italy are all suffering downturns to a greater extent than the UK at this time.
My semi-retirement job affords me the opportunity and the time to randomly ask companies in many business sectors how Brexit may/will affect them.
I was VERY interested to be told last week that a large importer of salad products based in the North West will unduly suffer from importation delays resulting from a no-deal Brexit.
It transpires that an agreement has been reached that providing the perishable food products originating in the EU (Spain particularly) are packed at source and sealed with a EU authorised security tag (on the container door) such containers will be whisked through the port at which they land in the UK as pre-customs paperwork will have been handled prior to the container’s arrival.
This appears to be industry-wide and solves any concerns about delays to perishable goods.
I have not yet had the chance to discuss the same aspect with a drug importing country but would hope similar pre-carriage customs checks will also facilitate speedy transit.
This of course completely undercuts the Remoaners published fears of shelf-shortages and stockpiling needs.
What other industries/border agencies will work together to ensure the same applies to many other items?
It’s called propaganda I call it bullshit.
There is lots of talk about extending A50 beyond 29/3/19. What’s the point, an extension and then another extension and another ad infinitum.. It has to be deal or no deal on the 29th, extending will only keep dragging it out, putting it off. Keep the deadline out no deal if necessary hopefully it will galvanize their minds. Or, how about we stay in but don’t pay the EU any money and do trade deals with others. I bet they won’t like the no money bit.
Just look at the mess. And they haven’t even left. That speaks for itself!
The ‘mess’ is Remainers trying to obstruct Brexit.
No that’s politicians trying to change it. The people voted we are leaving, end of story.
Should EU let UK go or no-go, that is the question
They should leave according to people’s right to choose for themselves.
What about the other half who chose not to?
If there was a great business case and plan to leave, it would have been simple. But there is not. Brexit was a good question and everyone that has touched it has made a mess of the answer and the process. There are best-practice methodologies for how to deal with such a mammoth business change. But oh no, why would anyone follow best practice? My guess is because the project would have been given key milestones to “prove” it/what can be done and demonstrate viable solutions. As soon as a solution is written down – it falls under scrutiny. Everyone wants all projects that impact everyday citizens to be executed brilliantly. Is this too much to ask?
Correct UK belongs to the people not politicians we demand to leave and leave we will.
Gerhard should we who voted to leave just say owell we wont leave now just because the 48% are bad losers cry babies time to move on and try and get a deal that works for everyone eu /uk the remoaners and the people who voted leave.
Britain politically and culturally is not a European country. It has its own empire and policy. So let it leave the EU.
Empire?
What time machine did you crawl out?
Gerhard didnt one of the top eu people guy verhofstadt last week say about the eu should head towards buildings an eu empire 🤔 just wondering.
We can build the commonwealth back up that’s where our future is not in a communist EU with the euro that will be worthless soon, debt and I employment being the norm. Merkel’s socliaists will move another few million Africans to replace its people. Be careful the EU is not good for you but you are welcome to it. It has a few problems it has leaders that do not do what it’s people want it has debt massive debt it can’t pay back and now it has an eu wide resession. You are welcome to it. We are European we are part Europe its the EU we are leaving we can’t leave Europe that’s just the continent we belong in.
Let’s talk business.
EU trade is shrinking every year UK is actually doing a lot better that the EU. The euro is in trouble it will go bust and when Italy or Greece returns to its own currency it means it will default on its euro debt that will end the euro. Unemployment is massive especially southern Europe. Yea the EU make great business sense NOT. Also while we are on business over 50 big companies employing over 5000 people have moved out of the UK with EU loans since we joined, yes it makes massive business sense said no body ever with an once of brain.
We are leaving stop crying about it, we choose to leave we do not want to be part tog the EU dictatorship anymore and good riddance.
Yes UK always opposed to all common policies
Actually, official EU voting (Council of Ministers) records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999.
In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.
So it is NOT true by ANY stretch of the imagination that we have “always been opposed to all common policies”.
Only when they are not in our Interests or its socialist side voting for the people with common sense who don’t care for the UK. Just their EU masters well not for long.
Whag you don’t tell us what voting for so etching meant to Britain for everything they let us ha e they take with the other. We voted out ukip had the best plan to leave but every other party ignored. It why? Brcause it was fixed until so many voted they didn’t expect it. Well truths coming out now.
If there was a great business case and plan to leave, it would have been simple. But there is not. Brexit was a good question and everyone that has touched it has made a mess of the answer and the process. There are best-practice methodologies for how to deal with such a mammoth business change. But oh no, why would anyone follow best practice? My guess is because the project would have been given key milestones to “prove” it/what can be done and demonstrate viable solutions. As soon as a solution is written down – it falls under scrutiny. Everyone wants all projects that impact everyday citizens to be executed brilliantly. Is this too much to ask?
It would of been simple leave wto then if EU want a deal let’s talk but no our politicians have been playing games to keep us in but we are leaving one way or the other we are leaving.
Yes
They voted for that!!!
Yes. They don’t deserve to be in the EU.
We don’t want it you are happy to keep it with its sinking euro.
We created it now we want out it’s been took over by EU socialist r population repla ement already started.
It will all end in tears or as it usually does or war no doubt.
They will brexiting 100 more years
17 million people voted for Brexit, 15 million vote for stay. How many people don’t vote in 2016 ? So from 65 million population in Uk, 32 million vote. So 17 – 15= 2 million people different. 2 million people in Uk that is about 1 single city. Why whole Uk to and EU to be divided just because 1 city? It is worth. I can’t see realistic arguments UK to leave EU. Nobody give good arguments to why Uk to Leave EU.I can see only problems. Uk have problem with migration – but that problem came from countries out from EU – like India, Pakistan, Nigeria, …Uk have problems whit Benefits – but that’s started more than 30 years ago, and sorry but is not EU mistake. UK have problems whit NHS health and care – sorry but that is dependent by decision to UK government. Uk have problems whit council house – that’s dependent all from Uk government. Uk have problems whit education system – You can see is not single area. It’s a Whole system falling a parts. And just because is easy to blame someone outside the real problems UK try to blame EU. But even UK to leave EU all the problems will stay in UK – who will blame Uk government after that ? USA ?
Yeah, that’s the bolshevik election mathematics. :)
I’m not bulshevik. For me is simply mathematic. If Brexit is such good Idea – why UK population is split by 2 ? Why from Bank of England said: “Britain is not ready for Brexit”, Brexit will put economic down with 10 % at least “ Please show me Your mathematic – simply :)
ysterday. cons fooling everyone
No, EU is not EU any more without Britain.
Yes
Why
Gregory Referendum result. I like democracy and respect the results of elections. No matter the outcome.
Why is there a E.U? What does it do? We need to start from that.
There are a lot of reasons for it. If you don’t know any then it is good way to start by reading history of Europe after industrial revolution till now.
Martyna I know very well why it started. But now I see people devided to strong and weak… This is not what E.U. was about.
No
WHAT??? That is a stupid statement that has nothing to do with the EU
Gregory
The EU was built on the premises that all states would be strong so that the situations that led to WWII do not repeat. Would you like to read the first declaration signed on forming the EU and what are its purpose?
yes
If you belive in respecting a democratic manate, then yes.
What, like what you have, like Boris?
yes gregory, thé mandaté was given 3 years ago.
Nothing has change since then
Eventually there will have to be another général élection when parties will stand on their spécific platforms.
Yes, and then, they should sign a tremendous, great trade deal with us (as Trump would say). We are Europeans, regardless of EU membership. Britain is entitled to exceptionally great special conditions :D, its prosperity remains in our interests. Because you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. The EU is not a jail for countries and peoples. Or is it?
Yes, I am sure after calling us vermin and cockroaches you will be given “exceptions”.
Exceptions and ass kissing has gotten us this spoiled brat called britain. What the UK needs is a good smacking!
Brexit means Brexit! How to justify a lie with the truth? You can’t! The PM ought to know that the fallacies can lead even thoughtful people from factual truths to false conclusions. Unfortunately communication with society is taken for a ride and, just like the economists, politicians must still learn to communicate with the general public and not just with the happy few. The issue with the Brexit is not to blame the economist. What they had to say is correct.
The audience just didn’t want to listen and it all came too late. For the past four years the negative vermin of the politicians constantly contaminated the general public. How could one expect the general public and the average citizen to listen after they had been brainwashed by the politicians of how bad every thing is and was with the European Institutions and being part of the European Union?
It also says a lot about democracy. What kind of democracy are we promoting where our youth is being denied their rights? The majority voted for “IN”. If they were awarded a 1,5 value per vote and the pensioners only 0,5 the outcome would have been to stay in! And what about Scotland and Northern Ireland (and actually also Wales)? There is the added prospect of Scotland withdrawing from the UK to remain attached to the EU. Sinn Fein has also commented that they will demand that Northern Ireland unite with Eire to remain in the EU. In that event, Ulsterman will react, with the prospect of a very bloody civil war. Are they being democratically handled? Yes, what a mess and at what a cost! Is the “UK” going down the tubes and will it be the end of the “U” in the “UK”? The prospect now is that there will be no UK, for good or ill.
Those who voted “Leave” in the Brexit referendum believed that they were doing so in order to restore the UK’s sovereignty and to end the immigration crisis. The outcome of the vote will actually do very little to achieve these aims. The boarders will be flooded with migrants, as the EU has no right to stop them at their borders if the migrants want to go to the UK. Indeed, now we are in a growing mess. It will take the current authorities 104 years just to process the 3,2 foreigners, paying taxes, living and working in the UK.
An awful lot of Brexiter arguments fall to pieces upon closer analysis. Aside from the fact that a lot of their core arguments make no sense whatever, there’s also the much more important fact that they have no real plan for what a post-Brexit economy would look like. If they had an actual plan, then we could subject it to scrutiny and judge it on its merits, but since all they’ve got is a load of weak arguments, outright lies and idle speculation about what they could do after quitting the EU, then the rational stance has to be “no thanks”, at least until they come back with an actual plan of action.
Hence, the blame and shame is with those who misguided society with negative rhetoric and outright lies! Now it will cost society not just millions or billions but trillions. This wasted money is at the expense of rescuing the NHS, the securing of education, the settlement of refugees, renovating the housing stock to meet climate change goals and this list will just keep growing as we wake up to the consequences. And what about free trade? Internet has no borders, why do we still need to create new ones?
In conclusion, Brexit has not achieved anything to establish Britain as a sovereign state, to rescue Britain from the multiculturalist quagmire, or to pursue sovereign policies in economics, finance, and foreign policy. She will be searching for markets within the same globalist system, paying debts to the same international banks, and sending troops according to globalist requirements. For the sake of some savings in relation to the EU budget by limiting the intake of fellow European immigrants, Britain has not gained anything for her independence or for her cultural integrity. What has been achieved is to give Britons the illusion of freedom and revival.
Voting for Brexit because you dislike the anti-democratic elements of the EU, and in the process handing far more power to the bloated anti-democratic House of Lords and a Tory government that stand accused of unlawfully cheating their way into power makes no sense whatever. What is more, the current UK government stand charged with cheating their way into power by fraudulently misdeclaring their expenses in over two dozen marginal constituencies.
Stop this process and stop it quickly as it will cost more then a generation and it’s not legitimate. And yet we’re swallowing it! How are we to explain our children and grandchildren that as grown ups in charge we prefer to spend their pension money on reinventing public administration to cope with Brexit instead of investing in security and their future. In the meantime more and more bombs are exploding in our back yard.
What a diatribe.
Immigration. Any illegal migrant attempting to enter the UK from an EU country buy ship, plane etc would and could be legally turned around and immediately sent back to the EU as they would have passed through a “Safe Country”
Voting Rights. I see you are not a democrat and are definately a bigot and ageist to suggest that the vote of an older person should have less weight in a democratic election that that of a younger person. I was very young when the original vote was held in the 70’s, so perhaps we should hold tat again and my vote should be weighted at 2-3 times that of the older people?????
104years to deal with the current 3.4m EU citizens in the UK. Lol you make me laugh. And can I remind you that whilst some are working and some are paying taxes, some are also claiming benefits for children not even living in the UK and some are also claiming IN Work Benefits that far outweigh the taxes they may be paying.
If you want another Referendum then let’s do it honouring the last which makes the question “Given that we have voted to leave in 2016 do you wish to leave with “this” deal or no deal
Very dramatic post Peter. What does the EU do for us exactly, apart from expose us to import duties, increase costs and market protection? Explain to us why the EU has not published, or had signed off, their budgets for the past years. Why do EU politicians think it is right not to pay a penny in income tax and have an extortionate expenses account funded by every EU citizen. How does Tusk and his mates justify a monthly salary of 30,000euro’s? Tell me when we, the public, had the vote to join this EU members club because I don’t remember the vote in but at least I had a vote to get out of something I never voted for in the first place. Oh and why don’t we get a vote on who gets to be EU council members?
Britain should leave in an orderly way. It has never really subscribed to key elements, such as the political objective, of the European Union and has obtained so many opt-outs that, after two referendums, launched because of doubts about the European adventure, it has shown that it does not want to fit. If a new referendum (not an election) showed a majority for remain, we might keep them in on conditions that both the current rebate and all opt-outs are abolished. This is the view of a European who loves the British, but wants Europe to deepen in order to last. If Scotland and Northern Ireland want to join, they should be accepted with open arms.
In our opinion, Britain can find a lot of resources and economic aid in the EU and above all, it could also be an economic aid for us. So in conclusion, leaving the EU would be a big mistake for the UK and a great loss for the EU member states.
Remain!
What this debate shows is that different people have different opinions. And that is absolutely right in any democracy.
We can, maybe, all empatise with both the positive and the negative aspects of EU membership. Neither “In” nor “Out” represents some kind of perfect heaven.
Why can’t we accept that it’s perfectly reasonable for different people to reach different conclusions?
My own position is that I would Remain, but not with any great enthusiasm. In the long term, the UK’s departure will likely damage the EU more that it will harm the UK (though that may be inverted in the short term).
I hope for a future where a looser, more flexible, more pragmatic, more democratic, and more effective EU might tempt Britain back. But that might be an impossibility seeing as the forces of integration seemingly haven’t yet understood the damage they are doing to the European project.
We don’t WANT to “tempt” back traitors and backstabbers who only come to profit.
They can rot on that island for all i care!
I personally think Brexit is just a pep talk that will never happen and that should not happen for the lives of 500 million people.We should be the ones to make changes not the MP, us, we need to make the world a better place,a safer place!I definitely think that we should remain and i think many people are with me.So what will our say decide,let our say change and protect the world.
I personally think Brexit is just a pep talk that will never happen and that should not happen for the lives of 500 million people.We should be the ones to make changes not the MP, us, we need to make the world a better place,a safer place!I definitely think that we should remain and i think many people are with me.So what will our say decide,let our say change and protect the world.!!
UK was never been in EU
I want the UK to leave the EU. When the UK leaves the European Union then Ireland will get the chance to get united. When the UK leaves the Union they actually brake the Good Friday Agreement which says that there should not be a border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
The Republic of Ireland plus Northern Ireland equals to a United Ireland.
Scotlands farm produce. Renowned round the world for it’s quality assurance and high quality welfare standards an UK the best lamb produced anywhere with the same quality standards as Scotland. So why can’t we not put tariffs on our best produce in the world when it comes to exporting world renowned Scottish and UK farm produce instead of just giving it away for nothing to all other countries. Spain can’t get enough of our North Sea fish. Scallops. Prawns. But yet we have to give it away for next to nothing also. We can’t put tariffs on. But Europe flood the UK with its chlorinated chicken. Bad welfare standards in mostly all of its meat produce and charge UK a massive food tariff price from an industry that can’t even track trace and be quality assurance guaranteed.
Get out of Europe Britain.
Would you allow this to happen boris. Boris. We know that you can be very clever. And if you don’t want independence and want to make UK great. Don’t give what most of farming and the fishing industry vote for.
YOU. Let’s be great. And if you want it. Do what we have to do. Dam well pay for it.