In his first act as Prime Minister of Greece, Alexis Tsipras laid a wreath at a memorial to Greek victims of the Nazis. It was a symbolically charged gesture, and was widely interpreted as a reminder of the historical debts owed to Greece by Germany. In Germany, however, it was seen as yet another anti-German provocation from a country being kept afloat financially, to a significant extent, by bailout loans from German taxpayers.
Yet debt forgiveness has an established historical precedent in Europe. Poland, for example, had accrued external debts of about 57% of GDP by the time the Communist system had collapsed, with the majority of that debt (around $33 billion) being owed to Western governments.
Poland’s largest creditor at the time was Germany, which reluctantly agreed in 1991 (under pressure from the United States) to go along with the “Paris Club” of creditor nations and forgive half of Poland’s debt to the West (though this was less than the 80% write-off Poland had originally been seeking).
An even more dramatic example is provided by Germany itself. Historically, Germany has been described as the biggest “debt transgressor” of the 20th Century, with restructurings in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953. Total debt forgiveness for Germany between 1947 and 1953 amounted to somewhere in the region of 280% of GDP, according to economic historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics. Today, Greece has an external debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 175% (by comparison, Germany’s external debts currently stand at about 145% of GDP).
Critics say that this argument amounts to cheap populism. Greece lied about its debts, and the economy was mired in corruption, bureaucracy, tax evasion and generous social perks afforded to Greek citizens. In other words, critics believe Greece does not “deserve” debt forgiveness.
Even worse, forgiving Greek debt could amount to a “moral hazard”, spurring on populist left wing parties in other Eurozone countries such as Spain and Portugal, and encouraging them to ask for a similar package.
The Greek government admits that Greek politicians behaved badly in the past, but it argues that so did German, French and American banks (and Greek oligarchs, who hid much of their wealth abroad). In addition, only a small amount (less than 10%) of the bailout money loaned to Greece has gone on public spending, with the vast majority spent on debt repayment.
Should Greek debt be forgiven as German debt was in 1953? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
2,296 comments Post a commentcomment
Sure but then what? The real issue isn’t the debt per se. What has created this debt? The deficit of the Greek state.
And it isn’t a greek problem. It is an european problem. The Greek state is just a symbol of what’s wrong with the current european model.
Deficit? What deficit? The Greek state runs budgets with primary surplus for the last 5 years; that has caused a heavy depression, dumping us to chaos. The current EU model is wrong because it forces democratic states to depriving their citizens of basic Human Rights in order to rescue the banks (mainly German and French ones); now, it is critical for the EU bureaucracy to respect DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENTS in their effort to abide by their DEMOCRATIC mandate that is not so convinient with the totallitarian attitude in Brussels.
Dear George,
Is it true Greek men can retire at the age of 50? Here in the US the retirement age is 66 and it should go up. If I lived in Germany I would not want to pay taxes to subsidize those Greeks retiring too early. I am a German American. Epharisto poli.
Dear Bernie,
no, greek men don’t retire at the age of 50, but at 65 (before 2010 it was at 57 i think). There are only cases that some can retire earlier than the age of 65, like mothers of under-aged children that have worked a specific amount of hours in their lives.
@Bernie Zehr Do you realize now how misunderstood is the situation in Greece by some of you? You think that we retire at 50 and we party every day, and all we want is free money from EU?? NO, Try to find out which country is the most hardworking in Europe, you will be surprised.
No, it is NOT a European problem, it is a problem for the entire world, and no, it is NOT typical for the European countries since it is only a hand full in the southern parts that have the economic problems compareable to the ones Greece has, the rest of Europe are fine (or very close) and the further north you get the better the economic you get. Just look at Sweden, probably the country in the world that handled the -08 crisis the best with practically 0 loss of BNP and as far as I know the Swedes are still Europeans, AND a part of the EU.
But to be fair; the people gets the leadership they deserve in a democracy, so if the politicians in Greece, backed by its own population, makes stupid choices that takes the entire nation close to bankrupcy, I have to think the people of Greece have them selves to blame, and they should also have to pay the price. Why should people in the northern parts of Europe pay for the dumb choices in Greece? It’s horrific the Greek government doesn’t want to pay the money they loaned from other countries.
Memememem ,stop please with the retoric of the northen country,40 of the 160 billion are due to Italy…
It’s not true that Greece ran a primary surplus in the last five years. http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1551-greek-choices-after-the-elections/
Danny, nothing is due to Italy, or any other european country, the loans weren’t exactly habnding over cash, they were guarantees. the only way it will cost money is if greece defaults. The creditors are making interest on the so callled loans by the way…
http://meedia.de/2015/03/31/hundertausende-klicks-anstalt-clip-ueber-griechenland-wird-zum-viral-hit/
Let the germans explain it better (die Anstalt). Unfortunately i found it only in greek subs, the ones in english have been removed. If someone finds it post it…
.
At last we have a question that is properly formulated.
No, they should declare bankruptcy while still in the Eurozone & let the other 18 countries pay for their debt.
here’s a live feed of people ‘celebrating’ the opening of the ECB headquarters,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7gfyZ5we3w
There is a better solution:
Let’s make Germany pay what owes to Greece in accordance to the 1953 Agreement (regarding WW II Reparations amounting to 7.1bnUSD + interset) as well as to the Decisions of Hellenic and Italian Courts of Justice regarding WW II victims’ Compensation (Distomo 1944, pilot-case); besides, let’s Germany pay back the Occupation Loans (extracted from the Bank of Greece in 1942-3 by the 3rd Reich amounting to 11bn USD). All of them sum up to more than 200bn USD in current prices leaving Greece with a net debt of 72bn Euros (60% of its current GDP) that is by all means viable, taking into account the primary surplus of its current budget.
So simple. Nobody hurts – everybody honnors his obligations! (not only “lazy pigs”- Greece but also the ones who triggered two WW catastrophies)
Saying that today’s German government founded on completely different principles compared to the Nazi run government during the WW2 should pay for 70-year-old reparations is absurd. You cannot just call for debts made at that time for multiple reasons, one of which is that precise debt calculations over so much time are practically impossible. We’re talking about inflation, interest rate changes and most of all the fact that the currency was later switched to Euro. You literally cannot make a meaningful calculation of that debt.
Also, even if Germany did pay out the “debt”, what would be the end result? No reform. Greece would just spend the money it would have received the same way it always has- too much public spending, imaginary jobs, early retirement etc. Greek people and their government need to finally learn how to behave responsibly within the system they joined and agreed to. And let’s not forget why it was allowed to join the EU in the first place.
@Matej Strelar
The nazis had implemented the doctrine of collective responsibility thus executing e.g. 453 villagers in Viannos region, Crete (14-17/9/1843). The German government imposed via the Troica “bailout agreements” a kind of collective private/citizens responsibility regarding state debt. We have de facto been deprived of our right to private property due to overtaxation and the threat to steal our deposits on the Cypriot model (ECB guarantee is nonsense).
Can’t oyu see analogies?
Greece isnt a state. Its a a country. Its a nation. As German ,Italy etc.
@George Yiannitsiotis
It is shameful to relate Greece’s current debt issues to Nazi forced war-reparations, murder, pillaging and atrocities. You cannot possibly suggest that Greece would want its self-inflicted bad-books situation be alleviated by reparations (in the form of capital) for the spilled blood and pain of its ancestors. Please enlighten me as to how you can make such a suggestion and how you believe this is “the better solution”. To spell it out for you: Self-inflicted, reckless hoarding of debt, falsifying records, all made well again by calling in a favour you think is owed due to war & mass murder brought about by a heartless, genocidal regime that caused the death of tens of millions of people, including its own.
Germany has a legal obligation to pay what it owes Greece, not to mention to return the archaeological treasures it stole during WWII. Also Even though IMF is strongly pushing for a deb reduction, not because they are nice guys, but because they know the debt is unsustainable and can’t be paid, so only with a debt reduction will they get their profits. The loan in 2010 is illegal. The official debt audit of the Greek parliament, executed by European treaty mandate, provides documented proof that many mechanism illegal in nature were used to save german and french private banks and to cover up the fact that the loan was unsustainable. The conditionalities of the loan are in severe breach of international laws, european treaty, and human rights. The above facts, and more, give Greece the right, and according to international laws the obligation, to stop payment of the loan. however, we saw the Eu’s totalitarian reaction to basic democratic rights of a referendum when the ECB illegal stopped recapitalising the private greek banks. one can only imagine the “punishment” that would be imposed upon Greece were it to execute its rights and thereby not only shame the EU but cause them a lot of economic pain…how would they explain to their taxpayers when the truth comes out?
http://meedia.de/2015/03/31/hundertausende-klicks-anstalt-clip-ueber-griechenland-wird-zum-viral-hit/
Let the germans explain it better (die Anstalt). Unfortunately i found it only in greek subs, the ones in english have been removed. If someone finds it post it…
What we, as citizens of this country want, is first of all is the audit of this notorious debt. How on earth we managed to reach this monsterous amount of debt. Was it really because some were not paying taxes ? The “theory” that all Greeks don;t pay taxes is absolutely ridiculous since the majority of the citizens cannot hide income , even more today when there is no income to hide. So lets see what this audit has to say first of all. http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_17/03/2015_548311
agree entirely the banks caused the problem the banks should solve it.
Banks?
stop acting as if the banks are the root of all evil.
You, the GREEK PEOPLE, don’t want to work as long as the rest of Europe, I mean, retirement at 53? In Sweden they try to force people to work to 73 !!! that’s a whole 20 years difference!!! And you sit here, EXPECTING the Swedish people to pay for YOUR retirements? for YOUR corruption?
I don’t think so.
Pay up what you owe us, then we can talk about a new loan
Let’s set somethings straight about life in greece past & present. Greek people don’t retire at 50 we (for now) retire at 65. There were exceptions for army,police,firemen,fighter pilots & some amount of mothers with underaged children.My father retired on1999 at 69 yrs having worked as a driver for over 40 yrs.His pension is 490euros/month…. Did you mention taxes? Before 2010 my income was 18000 FIXED tax was 680, had to pay FIXED vat 1200 WITHOUT collecting any.Same job last year’s income 8000 vat 1600 and the tax was 3000…still trying to pay it:(.BTW for pension and medical care have to pay 4200 annually.To sum up me+wife+2children income;24000-3000-1600-9000(house loan)-2400(electricity bills)=9000 to pay food,kids doctors, teiephones,clothing,petrol,car running costs,kindergarden,heat…etc. NO entertaiment,NO travels,NO holidays……Live your myth in Greece:( !
BECAUSE DEBTS ARE TO BE PAYED AERN’T THEY? AND NOT PAYING THEM SETTLES A TERRIBLE EXAMPLE TO OTHERS. I had a different opinion on debt crisis before knowing that others didn’t pay either. And a lot of maoney.
You are all leaving out these facts: deficit spending is severely limited, yet Goldman Sachs & Bear Stearns sold the previous Greek regimes on it. The banks who collaborated ALL knew it was illegal. If Greece had been allowed to keep its economy growing, its foreign debt ratio would be similar to Germany and France, etc…As Greeks say, you cannot foreclose on the sunshine!
http://meedia.de/2015/03/31/hundertausende-klicks-anstalt-clip-ueber-griechenland-wird-zum-viral-hit/
Let the germans explain it better (die Anstalt). Unfortunately i found it only in greek subs, the ones in english have been removed. If someone finds it post it…
Yes, it would be fair
As simple as a total denial of the public debt by all states!
Do you know how many trillions of dollars is thw public debt of the whole humanity? To whom? To people from Mars?
Memememem you really think that we retire at 53? Do some reasercht and stop taking as fact something that your media want you to believe.Greeks retire at the age of 65,with only a few exceptions. SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH,DONT BELIEVE THE BULLSHIT THEY TELL YOU.
I was talking to Thomas.
http://meedia.de/2015/03/31/hundertausende-klicks-anstalt-clip-ueber-griechenland-wird-zum-viral-hit/
Let the germans explain it better (die Anstalt). Unfortunately i found it only in greek subs, the ones in english have been removed. If someone finds it post it…
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
with english subs
And why not , France , Italy , Spain , Portugal ,….and …..and …. Haiti ?
Yes, why not?
Exactly how
The threat of a Greek exit every so often must stop. Everyone knows that this debt is not viable but all sides are so entrenched in their positions that we seem to have fallen back on the debate about the hen and the egg. A total agreement must come to fruition to solve the problem once and for all,allowing the Greek economy to plan it’s way into the future.
Are the politicians on all sides up to the task
I agree with Oli. While as out courtesy to what the Greeks agreed to do back then for the Germans, some lenience should be shown to Greece and allow some debt forgiveness as well as investments start pouring into the country, just like they did in Germany from foreign creditors (aka Marshall plan and others ) that is not the permanent solution. The more the Greeks and the periphery remain poorer, corruption will never be eradicated. Corruption is not a national trait, it is a sign of a broken system, of poverty and lack of education, as well as the inability of the state to function. Greece and many other states had a very turbulent past, that created a mentality of survival and selfishness, meaning that the locals grew up in absolute poverty and had to learn how to survive by any means. Now that post war generation who is still holding the reigns of the country, knows only one way on how to do business. Europeans in their arrogance and ignorance, believe that this will be eradicated by more austerity thus more poverty. What they are doing though is pushing one more generation of Greeks and others out of education and into extreme poverty, and as result corruption will never leave the mentality of that nation!! The solution? Reforms, education, investment, debt forgiveness (partial or full) and a stable economy so that Greece and other countries can become like the rest of Europe. But is this in the interests of the European elites, or do they need “peripheral” states to do the dirty work, aka being exploited and bullied when things go bad??
the above message is decribing fully the situation in Greece. Unfortunattly Europe doesnt see the forest, but the tree. This is a war, an economic war and people in Greece, people that never cheated, pay the very heavy prize. The one of not having the same rights as all the citinzens of E.U. have!
So… basically you say you the Greek people should spend it all… then sit back and let the rest of us pay for the things you can’t pay for by your self?
sounds LEGIT
by the way, the loans are way better than any loan I could ever possible manage to get with very low taxes and rates so I don’t understand what you are crying about..
If you had to take a BIG loan it’s because you can’t handle your money well, it’s NOT the fault of the people actually being nice LENDING you the money that has done wrong, but YOU who can’t handle it properly
In countries like Greece, a problem is that the people who suffer and the people who operate the state mechanism, i.e. crony bureaucrats. If you don’t bail out ordinary people will suffer and they question the users of the system, their miscalculations, bad statistics, inequalities, etc. But at the same time injocent people will continue to suffer. If you bail out, ordinay people feel the solidarity of the Europe, their human rights will be at least partially protected, but the system users will find not much incentive to give up the bureaucratic business as usual. In Turkey, it is exactly the same.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Let the germans explain it better
I,throughly agree with your appraisal,well written.
If it does it with frica, why not?
Actually, Mr or Ms Memememem, the truth is somewhere between:
1) We all know that if Europe wanted to help us,they would even without any interest rate
2)The above Greeks are right about the subject of what Germany owes to Greece since World War II.It is not yet relative,with what we owe nowadays.
3)Every Greek person pays its taxes.
4) Every Greek person takes retirement at 65 except specific cases.
5)If you know economics,something I think you should learn if you don’t know yet,banks were always behind all these loans.
6)In 2001 when we got Euro,nobody asked the people like nowadays.
7)Also,Europe has accepted us as an equal member.Europe(a big organisation) that I think shouldn’t make such a terrific mistake.
8)Has anyone helped you taking interest from you ?I don’t think this is the proper way to help someone.It concerns me something else.Maybe Europe has accepted because there wasn’t anything to lose but only win.
9)A union should work as a union.My thoughts are that since Europe is a body,all nations from which it consists should help paying together with the nation that has the crisis.Why?Because a body works together.Maybe this happens in 200 years.Maybe..
10)In the end nobody ever was asked in Greece like nowadays if we wanted to take a loan.This happened for the Eurozone.Everyone knows that if we had left 5 years ago,we would be a lot better right now.
11)We love Europe but let’s set everything in the proper basis
12)We are responsible as Greek citizens of Europe.We never asked all these crisis and now we pay about this.Who? the Greek citizens.Who is having it’s money outside in foreign countries? the various politicians that had governed all this time.Who is outside the prisons?Them
That’s why we will vote No.Because we will haunt them until they pay what they owe
If they did it with Germany, why not with Greece?
@memememem, this is A UNION…European union…and it is currently heading to aunion of NO sovereign countries….The EU parliament decisions overrun the any national parliament decisions…
So does the USA….in such a union surplus from any state cover up the dedicit of any other state regardless the reason…..so please understand that this is like the oceans on planet earth…INTERCONNECTED
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Let the germans explain it better
well if we cleared the debt of a country that is solely responsible for the death of millions via 2 world wars andt was killing people like cattle in concentration camps then shouldnt we clear the debt of the country that gave the world democracy, freedom, sciences, art, literature and philosophy?
Germany created the monster now they have to deal with it.
It’s not just sucking from then and limit their production like they did in the past. At least someone is telling them to piss of.
Germany is not the same country anymore, is it? And neither is Greece the same country that ‘gave the world democracy’. The debt in question is not a debt of a people, we are talking about the debt of a state caused by the almost traditional corruption and nepotism employed by its consecutive administrations.
Germany readied funds to bail out Greece and save its people from subsequent bankruptcy by appealing to its own populace to buy bonds for this purpose. We are talking about incredible amounts here. No country can pay such amounts in full and at once and nobody will buy such risky bonds if they don’t have a fat interest rate attached to them. Nevertheless the interest on those bonds is 3x less than the interest banks have pushed onto Greece in the years before.
So if you are going to crucify an institution for choking an entire people to poverty I suggest you start with such banks. I am not even going to mention the EU safety umbrella here which only exists because of Greece in the first place.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Let the germans explain it better
Dont compare the two situations! where is the money that was put in Greece? what have they changed?
Sadly around 90% of it has gone to support the banks or pay the interests of the loans. So nothing has really changed, everything is getting worse. We’ve seen some progress int he corruption-section though, still not for the very rich population, but it’s something. I hope we continue towards this road, but while not forgetting that we are humans and not numbers. I want a decent euducational and health system, something that the last years is a disgrace. But let’s hope. Perhaps the new government will do something about that.
Do compare the two situations !
If you know greek or german let the Germans explain it better. Sorry all the posts with english subtitles have been removed. If someone finds it, post it.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Found it in english
It’s matter of Germany and Greece the debt to be forgiven and Germans to pay for it as Greeks did it to Germans no need for rest Europeans to pay for it. Germany to pay even if they loose money other wise I want my country out of European union with our own currency and no hate between our countries lets just walk alone and continue all happy.
your buddy lend you $10
he says it’s fine and doesn’t want it back because it’s small potatoes.
Fine, I get that
but compared, what YOU Greeks owe is way way way way more than what the Germans owed, AND, with the difference that the Germans owed for their war crimes, while you people owe it for retiring way way too early (nearly 20 years difference between the avarage greek and the average Swede when you look at how long they work until retirement) and for your country being corrupt as ******
really not comparable by any means
As the saying goes…Leave if you will, leave at your peril
Your actions are disgusting, you take the money, promise to pay it back, change your mind then bring up a debt from 50 years ago to try get out of it.
If it was me, I would hang up on you every time you called for a loan
Memememem, all your comments show simplemindedness, simple understanding of highly complex situations. I will give you the facts as simply as possible so you can stop spouting your inane claims that you are paying anything for the Greek people. In 2007-08 after the collapse of Lehman Bros. the world economy pretty much collapsed. German and French banks were highly exposed to Greek bonds..keep in mind that bonds are an investment, a gamble, not a loan. As a result of this economic collapse Greece was not able to pay the German and French banks…they gambled in high risk investment..i.e they got 7% on greek bonds, instead of safer bonds with 1 or 2% returns, and they lost. The shareholders of these banks would have lost a lot of money and would have to recapitalise the banks. Merkel and Sarkozie could not allow their private banks to collapse. So the plan was, loan 240 billion to Greece to cover the bonds, but how could Merkel and sarkozie tell their tax payers that they were making private losses public??? they didnt dare, so they started the whole poor greece, we have to save Greece. save Greece indeed, borrowing money at 0% and loaning it at 5%. And actually it isnt money, the loans are more like guarantees, they do not cost the tax payers anything, unless Greece defaults! of the 240 billion euros over 90% went to German and french private banks, and less than 10% to Greece. At the time, IMF and EU knew that 240 bill. was too much, that this loan was not sustainable, it could NEVER be paid back, but they covered this up because in essence to loan a country money that they cannot pay back is ILLEGAL. They doctored projected statistics to make it seem Greece could pay, but as everyone now knows those projections were so unrealistic and were not even close to the truth. In the mean time, the conditionalities of the loan were austerity measures…in greece these were 40% cuts in wages, the same in pensions, 30% of pensioners are below poverty level, a drop in GDP..these recessionary measures caused a depression in Greece that is comparable to the great depression of 1930s. which makes it even more impossible to pay the loan. I could give you many more factual details of the devestation of the greek economy due to austerity but i wont. Germany has made over 800 billion euros profit from interest in the last years from Greece, the IMF over 3 billion. It has not cost any european tax payers anything, except for the Greeks who have lost their homes, their livelihoods and even their lives. As far as the German debt, Germany is known as the biggest deafulter of loans in the last century, they defaulted on loans 4 times in the last 90 years. who paid for all of that? moreover, many uropean countries received war time reparations, only greece hasnt received them. also Germany extracted a loan from Greece in 1943, it isnt that long ago as many WWII survivors will now tell you. Germany has a legal obligation to pay what it owes to Greece. THe only reason they havent is, aside from dancing around saying things like, oh we will pay when east and west germany is united again, and when that happened other excuses, the main reason is, after WWII, our allies started a civil war, they put the right wing Nazi collaborators in power again and fought against the left wing LIBERATORS calling them communists etc. And so after the war we had nazi collaborators in power and many of their decendants are still governing this country and are the oligarchs who vbenefit, so of course they did germany the favour and turned a blind eye to the refusal to pay. Finally, as far as tax evasion and corruption goes, it is these descendants of nazi collaborators , the oligarchy that is at fault, and multinational corporations, German mostly, like siemeans, hochtief who are bribing and getting huge contracts, who are not paying taxes, for example most recently Hochtief has finally and legally been shown to not have paid 600 million euro in taxes to greece. and one last thing, your comfortable lifestyle up north is thanks to EU’s deindustrialisation of many countries to benefit the big exporters, namely Germany, who have made a fortune by pumping money into greece and other small countries to stimulate consumption of mainly German imports. so please get a brain, learn the facts, and stop whining about who is paying whose pensions and lifestyle.
To the swede guy/girl: you are absolutely wrong, this is not how the debt was created whatsoever. yes greece has taken more loans than they should and there were mistakes, but this is not the beggining of the crisis. The failure of the banking system is, and euro tax payers have paid for it-greek citizens have paid for it in money, unemployment, deprivation of health care and degrade of our education. And it is not true that people retired at 50, who told you that?? it is 65, get your facts straight. The age comes down for specific jobs that are considered detrimental to health and for some army officers (and I sure hope it increases for the latter group). And since you come from sweden, why don;t you start your criticism by requesting your own country why you have not adopted euro even though you have signed to be part of the eurozone. Unless you didn;t know :) and then, maybe you can start with your questioning on greek morality.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Not true , even the germans admit it finally
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Memememem Not true , even the germans admit it finally
No
Why? Give your reasons like everyone else.
Costa
why should I pay for YOUR wrongdoings? Why should people in MY country pay for YOUR countrys inability to handle money properly? Why should WE pay for YOUR corruption? Why in the name of the lord should anyone else than YOU pay for YOUR OWN MISTAKES???
If you buy more than you can pay for, you kinda deserve going bankrupt
@mememme
i fell really badly when i hear other Europeans saying “why should i pay”. nobody is forcing you or any other European citizen to pay! it’s a bank problem! greek crisis didn’t cost anything to other eu citizens and it won’t cost! only greeks are pau8more and more without anu results
@Memememem
why why why? because the pig banks in YOUR country are the ones who profit from the suffering of the Greek people. Disgusting!
Memememem, I gave you a fairly detailed answer above, here i will just remind you the this so called new bailout, of 85 billion dollars will not go to Greece, it will go directly to paying interest on the loan, not the loan itself…so it is paying the creditors PROFIT, and the rest will go to recapitalise the bankrupt private banks! You are not paying for any Greek pensions or lifestyles, in fact greek pensioners have lost approximately 40% of their pensions so your country can earn a profit, so your country’s private banks do not lose a penny, so they can keep their million euro salaries and their multi million euro bonuses!
Dimitar I have many Bulgarian friends and everyone tells me the same they believe that we are lazy cause we don’t work on Sundays etc but we have exact the same with Bulgaria we work 40 hrs per week it doesn’t change on what day we work you work on Sunday we don’t we both work Five days per week.bulg and gre work the most hrs ij European Union and while we should soppyrt each other while we are their slaves we have low sallerys we are neigbours and with common religion we become motherfuckers why?
i have a feeling if yes, than Greece’s oligarchs wins what means that the corrupt system not going to change so it would happen again and again.And if the oligarchy wins it would win all over europe.In the same time i think the eu. should do more friendlyer conditions of paying it back.But the German exemple is’t cool, cause Germany was bombed to ashes so they needed to rebuild the country literaly after the war.In Greece, there was no war just some people atually stoled to much money….ye by the way, why this people, i mean the maffia don’t help their own country by helping to pay the money?Why they are living tho most luxurious life when the most of the people suffering because of them?And yes i repeat, the eu should make more friendly conditions of paying it back.
The rich dont care, it’s as simple as that. They are the people that created this in the first place- yes some people didnt pay all of their taxes and lied, but this percentage can hardly cause such a crisis.The tax-evading lazy stereotype is just a stereotype. Now the rich have their money in Switzerland and the rest suffer for their selfish behavior.
Omg – read your history before commenting on a situation that you obviously have no knowledge about! Greece detained the German invasion actually in Crete by a week which detained their take over of Greece & eventually cost them the war as by the time they reached Russia it was winter!! Hello one of the main reasons Germany lost the war! Apart from that the atrocities they visited on the Greek people simply for their resistance was abominable! Apart from that they decimated the country from food – for the German army leaving Greeks to starve- they ‘borrowed’ money from the Greek banks which has never been returned – and yet you ask why the Germans should forgive the Greeks their debt? The Greeks are actually some of the most highly educated people I have met in spite of a state education system which is based on repetition- the vast majority of Greeks pay for some form of private education- so is the corruption in the Greek government to blame? Yes of course – they were going the way of many 3rd world countries before they joined the EU but the people are a little wiser now and mostly understand the way the country should be run but a lot have been disillusioned by the leftist government – unfortunately it should not be run by a socialist government who only want to please lazy people & put the civil service back to the disgrace it was before – what is the solution? Release Greece from these debts which in fact they have repaid and it is now only the interest on loans that they are obliged to repay – but do not allow this government to take responsibility as they have done nothing but create uncertainty in all Greek markets!
Very good arguments
Because only Germany was bombed right?
The Balkan countries are ripe with corruption – and as a result they either suffer a miserable standard of life or high unsustainable debt or often both – why should the German or the UK taxpayer be paying for the unwillingness of people to make a bit of an effort and change their countries – ABSOLUTELY NO
Because they are the bigest corruptors in the world!
did you know SIEMENS,TELEKOM,FEROSTAHL,HOCH/TIEF
thats why
AOh come on ! Germany does not have a bad memory. You cannot keep in blaming the Nazis for everything. Move on. Greece lied, simple so NO
Corrupted by who?
Sir, there was a case of bribes paid to Greeks by German companies.
I think, specifically the company in question was Siemens.
In the U.S the law prohibits bribery. Same for the UK.
I fear, Europe’s different. Greeks are not the exception. Simply part of the norm.
At any rate, the shame is that we now belong to a club same as Germany.
Who wants to be thought of same as Germany. But times are achanging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMwZsFKIXa8
The two scenarios can’t be compared
I think yes sir
Oh so time will hide the sins of some but not of others . . . By the way, great reason to forgat about little details: it was long ago.
I only will say: Germany has a bad memory and should have a bad conscience.
Germany has the best memory of any country in this day and age. The only country where you are taught – in detail – european history in school, with a particular emphasis on the years ’14 -’45. Again and again and again. One of very few countries who seek to solve conflict without the use of armed action in our day. In fact one is taught so well that people are perfectly aware that there is a dark history but that the country itself is not the same. It is the total opposite of the 3rd Reich in terms of policy, tolerance and equality etc etc. In the end what you are saying is that a 10 year old german citizen should have a bad conscience about what someone may have done 70-80 years before, more than 2 generations ago. So, with all due respect, if your sentence is really the only thing you can say then perhaps don’t say it. The past is the past and the future belongs to the young. It is important to teach the young the dealings of the past but not to burden them with the irreparable sin of their forefathers.
Of course it should be forgiven!
The eurozone was modelled on the German Bundesbank.
That model was faulty and stupidly did not include practical risk monitoring.
Whether by omission (neglecting to evaluate risk) or commission (putting all eggs in one basket), all eurozone members are responsible for this mess.
Ireland’s 15 years in the eurozone have been a period of massive economic instability – 7 years unsustainable boom, 1 year economic freefall, 7 more years of recession, unemployment, emigration, service cutbacks, all to please the German export model.
Germany was the worst debt defaulter of the 20th century.
The London Agreement of 1953 was scheduled for re-examination in 2012, but Germany conveniently neutralised debate.
On top of that, Germany among others has undermined democracy (installing technocrats in preference to elected leaders), has undermined capitalism (socialising private Sparkassen debt), has undermined economies (interest rates set counter-intuitive to the best interests of peripheral countries), has undermined equality (the EU Commission prioritises German interests above all others) and has undermined the social contract (flippantly disregarding the welfare of people in peripheral economies).
Anyone remember the solidarity clause in the Lisbon Treaty? Well, what about it?
The German wheel will turn !
If a Greek leader goes into a bunker and shoots himself, we’ll consider it.
Some things never change and it is not greek leaders i m talking about…
Like it or not these are different than the ones we ve had for so many years
So the fact that Hitler shot himself in the bunker gives the Germans the right to default on their debts and everybody else to pay for them. Come off it.
:D :D very very dark
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That’s disgusting!!
?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???????????? ???????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????. ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ? ?????????? ??? ????????? ??? ???????? ??? ????????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??????????? ????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ?? ???????? ??? ????? ???. ????????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ?????????. ?????????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ???????? ??? YouTube ??? Eurovision. ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????????? ??????? ? ????????? ???? ? ???????? ??? ??? ????????. ? ?????? ??? ? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????????? ????? ?????????? ???
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greeks are working more hours than anyone in eyrope…All these rumors became from those who dont want to solve the problem..its not a greek problem,its europian.
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-european-workers-who-work-the-longest-hours–xycGVDQ36g
A man plowing a field by hand is lazier than a man with a tractor?
Substitute the tractor with a tax system that allows to plan ahead, an office that can issue a business license within days instead of months and many more liberal measures.
So its not about us being lazy rather than purly organized.
Anyway i m also thinking that if you bail us out nothing wil change.
If you dont and we get out of the eurozone nothing will change as well but the shit is going to hit the fan.
Is this the best way Bulgaria can express itself, Dimitar?
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For sure, Germany is so proud about Merkerl, forgeting all the sacrifices it did to Greek (and others) people.
good idea. proceed.
Yes
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1057305434286492&pnref=story
All debt is going to have to be forgiven at some point. Either that, or it’s WWIII. The Torah stipulates that debt should be forgiven every 50 years, which may optimise the return on investment without losing everything in a damaging war. Of course, they didn’t have nuclear weapons in those days…
Why didn’t we think of that sooner? To base the world economy on a religious book? What can go wrong?
???? After WW2 is not the same with after THE PARTY!!!(2004-2011 /145 bn. in Primary Deficit at an ~ 200bn. G.D.P). Keep sleeping Greeks!!……
1. WW II reparations = 7.1bn USD (1938 prices) + interest => 200bn USD current debt (of course, aftair the “haircut” in 1953 from almost 17bn)
2. The “occupation loans” extracted from the Bank of Greece in 1942 = 11bn Euros current prices including interest
3. Compensation to the more than 0.5mn victims (civilians) of German army attrocities in Greece (not accounted)
4. A full, unreserved APPOLOGY to the Greek people in the way only true LEADERS do express (Willy Brandt in Warsaw, 1970s)
Current Greek debt to Germany amounts to 68bn euros (most in guarantees – not direct lending!).
There are much better ways to sort these issues out than running around fighting fires. We need to have a new Conference. A Next Level Accord. In a reshuffle of cards, all countries in the Eurozone should be invited, and those other EU members on the fence be invited to join the Eurozone prior to the NLA Conference. We have to do it now, when money is costing nothing, and the problems are many, urgent and clear. In good times, nobody will remember or care, and then we will just cycle in and out until it all falls apart.
Trond, you say that now money is costing nothing. And yet about 90% of the money loaned to Greece has gone to pay interest. That shows you the degree of exploitation that the European banks have exerted on the Greeks.
And in particular German, French the ECB and the IMF. It’s business, sir, and the name of this business is called extortion.
Maybe dimitar lose his girlfriend from a Greek man !!!!
We Sorry for that my friend !!!!
Keep speaking bad to cover the lose !!!!!
Absolutely yes and without losing time anymore
Dimitar tourists bring Money its a policy you shouldn’t be anoyed by having a tourist place that all Balkans come here and act like crazy its good thing it makes you popular and brings you money.idk you may have Slavic Macedonian origins and I can understand your hate but if not and ur pure Bulgarian why so much hate we have so in common Bulg Gre and Turkey are three countries with so many common things that they share their industries also Gre and Bulg are also in alliance in army and everything why you hate that land and those people so much
Sure
They I hope you’re ready to forgive Portugal’s and Ireland’s. Oh, Spain will probably ask for the same. Why not? It’s seems like nothing about accounting.
That is why more and more economists talk about the Eurobond, where the eurozone debt is all handled as one.
no
why not?
We should forgive everybody! To hell with the responsibility. Responsability is just so… old-fashion.
Greek people are not asking for a forgiveness. They are asking for a chance, a haircut of 30% of the debt so as they can can proceed to a growth. Instead, if this doesnt happen, Europe will be responsible for the total distruction of a nation, because of numbers! We are people here, not euros! People, men, women, children, babies! PEOPLE!
No
THAT COMPARISON IS OUT OF ORDER….
Do the Greek people get the same treatment? I mean, lots of people have lived in debt for the past 6 years due to the crash. Will you wipe off their debts too?
Spain is paying back so do not lable iT under the same rate…Banks are The major culprits of this chaos!!! And we know that NY and London city finantials hub lost it too.
mnay I r3emind all….its not about forgiveness..its about a country which has over decades spend money it did not have….others have to stay in now..
Commme?????
YES
Yes what dear
No
Yes! We should forget all debt! We will be then the United States of Europe!
Are you insane…. Of course not!
Definetively NO.
No
yes
Was Greece destroyed by a war?
yes!! By someone that started a war!
No way, EU tax payers are sick of that game. Everyone has to pay his own debt.
Actually yes. WWII. Germany wasn’t destroyed by a war, she initiated the war which destroyed and killed millions. So if she deserved that, then what can you say for Greece whose only mistake was that it entered a faulty monetary zone and she couldn’t follow monetary policy on its own when she had to. The fault was Greece’s but also the rest of the Eurozone’s.
Are you sure that Germany’s debt was ‘forgiven’ in 1953? I have the impression that ‘restructured’ might be a more accurate term.
If Greece wins this, others should also benefit from this.. So I am really surprised that nations with heavy burden of debt, and also suffering from austerity, are saying no! If the poorer regions beat austerity then it is good for all of us. The debt of the poorer regions, are not only their own. It is a European problem. Because the euro was so badly constructed, once in the eurozone they had to overspend to keep up with Germany, an economic powerhouse. To the benefit of the richer nations of course. A weaker euro benefits Germany hugely. While for Spain, Greece, Italy or Portugal and others not so much.. The periphery must stick together in this, not be against each other. How hard is this to get? Austerity hasn’t solved anything so far, especially in Greece which has seen the worse than other bailout nations!!
Definitely otherwise It’s not equality of all members. Germany was helped also when reunited ! I am a citizen of three EU countries and believe in a Europe of solidarity not punishment.
Beside the fact that “piigs” balance problems belongs to other causes. Should european people (mediterranean and northen) be slave of german-bruxells establishment? I wish to be european. But in a europe in wich people came before money.
Damn, Bulgaria has almost no debt, only 15-16 billion. We need to make debt and then we can all forgive it:)
Now the germany must pay.
Is very hard for a few to understand that ??????
THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENT BETWEEN THOSE TWO SITUATIONS !!!!!
Germany at 1953 have destroy many countries (2d war) and they pay some of them (not Greek yet) that’s why dint have money (but Greece sign to help them)
GREECE 2015 have pay the debt 4 times but because they give us the highest interest ever we still own money FOR THIS BUSINESS GERMANY MAKE !!!
IF ANYONE CANNOT SEE THE DIFFERENT …. NEED DOCTOR !!!!!!
as long as all the other countries get the same treatment…. sure
No.
“Forgiveness” is an unfitting term when it comes to debt payment. A proper reformation of the debt payment program must be laid out by the greek goverment and accepted by the EU. This, to be honest, is exactly what the current left-wing goverment has set out to do, but in an extremely inexperienced and badly put manner. The problem the people the Greeks pay their debts to. A big part of the debt Greece owes is not to Germany, but to companies. This brings up the problem of the “owning” of countries by companies by debt. Debtocracy is a malpractice that is raging; what needs to be done is not “forgiveness”, but 1) the proper management of the humanitarian crisis in greece and 2) the re-establishment of the troika, but on looser terms. The troika is not the devil; it is a monitoring service that has helped Ireland and Spain get back on track. With proper planning, patience and strict limitations against poverty and unemployment, led by a non-radical goverment, Greece can get back on the right track within 50 years.
When of what is written in this article, you should know that our European friends that the debt created in Greece, this responsibility not only have Greeks and other Europeans who, through armament, loans, etc. “lending” money.The European Union came to the solidarity of peoples beyond numbers !
Why not?
That sounds fair, germany acts like ww2 was 1000 years ago. They act like 70 years ago, in germany there are bo germans. So as the russians, sneaky bastards
They done too much horrible things in europe, so 150 mil de marks is not enaught.
No, they must stand up and work!
My daughter as well as many others I know here work between 70-80 hrs a week. She gets no days off, no overtime. If she refuses she is replaced. The people (Most) work seven days a week and very long hours. Since this “loan situation began, salaries have been cut, in many cases to 1/3 of the already super low rates, and all taxes have been increased. The average family of four or five here live on about 700€ a month. In the U.S. This is poverty level. I am not an economist but who in their right mind thinks that people can keep paying higher taxes while taking home less money. When taxes alone equal your income you have nothing left to live on and that is the direction it has been going here for the last 5 yrs. we are not in this mess because Greek people are lazy. We are in this mess because of crooked politicians on both sides. The debt must be forgiven because it is not sustainable and I can’t believe that any intelligent person who really looks at the situation here can’t see that.
By the way, speaking about depts, why dont you greeks return Belomorska Trakia to Bulgaria?
Keep dreaming…
Read history carefully. Not only school history.
Molon lave (ela da vsemes) pederast!
Yes most definitely. Most of this debt its owned to the Central Banks or other fat cat 1% ers who can absorb the loss.
Yes
If Germany forgive Greek debt
Greece economy will be stable
Of course
YES
Konstantinos Tertivanidis
I think, that Greeks must pay for their credits. They are not poor. They have hidden incomes. When the Greek women go to Bulgaria to work, I will believe that Greece has not money for paying.
keep dreaming… Till then, send your women in Greece!
No, because we will create more debt afterwards, the way our economy is constructed. If we create a more realistic system with a more flexible public sector, a clear cut tax collection system and get rid of all the spending that goes towards those who unfairly benefited from PASOK ND and now SYRIZA, then EU could make a significant cut of the Greek debt. But while we refuse to function in a more European like mentality, EU should not make any kind of political or financial sacrifices purely based on good will.
Of course! Europeans have made a huge effort to build a prosper and modern Germany.
The comparison is out of line!
How about east European debts? USA and Britain throw our countries- Poland, Hungary, Czech Slovakia- to Soviet hands, put us to live under communist domination as experiment, although we have revolted against in 1956, thousands have died in front of Soviet tanks! After that IMF gave huge loans to east European countries and our wages are still much more below the Greek wages!
Germany is trying to enforce a policy that makes a lot of European people poor and without hope. The people of Europe must unite against this policy it is not Greece’s problem it is a battle of ideas between the strict almost fascist mentality of Germany and the capitalist forces (banks,industries etc.) against humanistic and more people centered policies that reduce the capitalist profits…
Yes, it should.
Then we need to move over this monetary system.
la Germania , allora, pagava un debito di guerra , la Grecia ha perso una guerra ? Siamo in guerra ??? Eppure abbiamo un nobel per la pace! Come abbiamo fatto ad averlo !? Germany paid a war debt, Greece has lost a war? We are at war ??? Yet we have a Nobel Peace Prize! As we did to him!?
We need to put down the past of our minds and try to create a better Europe for all of us! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to solve anything with the national mentality of the states thinking that they are the best amongst others! Europe is the most equal and modern region of the globe and it is thanks to the great cooperation between different nations with a huge differences in culture and mentality. Diversity creates more open minded people!
Greece dept was created by corruption not only on governament level but also by its own people. Bad judgment from people to governament was what created Greece problem. For Greece to survive, the other European countries had to inject money – even countries with their own economic problems like Portugal, Irland and Spain. Now, if we forgive Greece a dept for which they did close to nothing to solve or change their way of life then it is like sending a message to other countries saying “do not worry, you can have as much dept as you want because we will always pay for it”. There is too much austerity and we all agree on that but there is also a lack of economic responsability from countries that only know how to spend. ?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.?
? Margaret Thatcher
we made 0 reforms the past 5 years and all that pressure from EU.
No. The EU is about to find out the price for structuring as a very loose confederation. Oh, it won’t just be Greece either. Enjoy it and learn from it.
It has been already to a large extent.
No way. How come ? Encourage more coruption and bad budgeting ???!!??
Bulgaria, with government finances in order, paused its bid for euro adoption since it understandably does not want to send loads of money to its prodigious and rich neigbour country.
Finances in order? Bulgaria? You are joking of course…
off course. taking into account that the US driven Marshal Plan is at the foundation of all the BS happening in the EU … its only fair that Greece gets compensated as agreed then. After all Germany is earning massively from the debt of the greek people in interest payments, banking fees and commissions, not to forget their righteousness positioning currently. So Germany start doing what you preach others must do – namely PAYING THEIR DEBTS OR GIVING THE SAME DEBT FORGIVENESS THAT THEY RECEIVED
Yes it should. It is nothing unusual to forgive debt and in this case it makes sense.
Yes, ofcorse.
German Debt was forgiven in 1953?
Which Germany?
And did Greece forgive?
I don’t get it, why u always talk about Greek debt like it was owned by Germany?
Definitely.
Yes
Everything depends on the final goal for Europe. Do we want a UNITED EUROPE or GERMANY and the rest? Germany has made a lot of damage during the 2 World Wars and everybody wants to forget this……. A decision for a UNITED EUROPE can make a new beginning with the European future…. stop thinking about the BANKS and their profits and lets talk about people and their prosperity….
Yes…..
Ok lets make something clear. Greece has not forgiven the German debt. They should give back what they own to Greece not only from the loan what they took but also they have to pay pack for all the distraction what they created of families villages they destroyed (didimoticho kokinia kontomari kandanos vianos amira etc etc) and after that Greece will give back what they own to Germany. something like maybe 10% what Germany still own to Greece.
Definitely NO, it is not German money only but European money and we want ours back
If this was a private debt, the bank wouldn’t forgive shit. Dunno if it really compares, though.
No, Greeks doesn’t deserve special treatment, maybe It’s time to be held accountable for exactly what they are, a poor, peripheral “Olive Oil Belt” nation.
it’s either debt forgiveness or debt rescheduling on a sustainable basis – I really cannot for the life of me understand why Germany won’t longfinger the debt over, say, 100 years and only if there’s a certain level of budget surplus from which to make payments after basic needs for the administration of Greece have been met – Germany’s obstructionism smacks of sadism and delight in others suffering, something for which Germans were notorious not so long ago
You want an answer???? Here it is http://www.pappaspost.com/leading-german-politicians-split-with-merkels-position-on-war-reparations-to-greece-it-would-be-good-for-us-germans-to-put-our-own-house-in-order-in-terms-of-our-history/
Yes
Sure all the chatter here with non-Greek origin now are going to be trying to open the box of Pandora and to blame Greeks for the world crisis and even for Ozone whole, but i only want to say one line more: the nowdays of Greece is the future of yours, so be more composed and structured in your critics, trying to see the core of the problems and reasoning it, because the Greek problem is not only Greek, but as well yours, just u dont know that u are dead the same way we are!
Dimitar I hate your attack party also but if you want it in your government is your right and generally Bulgaria maybe on EU but didn’t gave not even a penny or will give for Greece so you can’t just hate our prime minister because you just don’t like his face or something he didn’t cause or risk ur countrys economy or sth it’s democracy and we vote for him that’s how it is
Im sure Greece will survive perfectly well on its own, outside of the EU. Though some of my Greek friends outside of Greece are desperately trying to make money and send it home for their parents, I dont know what they will do if they cant work in the EU anymore, they have no resources. Maybe Ireland should ask for a few quid from the famine times too.
Do you actually believe that Greece can repay 365 billion euros? There is no chance Greece can do that and why countries such as Germany and USA with bigger depth don’t have the same issue?
Bill AlpasAimilia Renieri
Not forgiven. Bailout and detachment from international trades indefinitely. Let Greece die the death it deserves
yes
?h come on…So many uninformed people…Greek debt was in 2009 about 120 billions euros.During the crisis and all the “reforms” ,loans ,financial instructions etc it became 300(or more ) billions …That happened ,apart of the economical reduction ,mostly becouse of the speculation that the funds (the big players) did so they earned huge amount of money.Just Deutsche Bank has earned more than 80 billions euros out of the greek crisis….
And btw,i would like to read some opinion of German citizens.WHere are they ,they dont use facebook,or they dont pariticipate in debating europe ,why should they,they dominated europe already…
Greece needs to invoice Germany for those war reparations.
Greek debt must not be forgiven. There is nothing to forgive. Greek debt is illegal. Should be refuted. Not forgiven. Luckily the parliament started to audit it.
There is no negative or positive reply in this question. We should be really careful about we are al talking about. Probably we should forgive a part of the debt but I am not agree if we are making a comparation with a past that almost no one prefeer to remember..
Yes
The answer is in between. It is true that Greece is in this situation because it lied to everybody and stole the money, not put it to use for the good of the economy. But the population shouldn’t pay for the sins of the political clas.
However, stronger supervision from EU and ECB to the greek finances is a must. Also , EU should not allow the country to fall prey to speculators. We should act like a Union for good or worse. If the situation came so bad, it is also because EU failed to properly supervise its members and the use of the capital lend to various countries.
So save Greece but make sure it learns its lesson ;)
Noone here in Greece wants to be forgiven. We have the right thought to find out what this dept is about. First we need to find out how much we took and who took advantage of our smashing via austerity..
The debt of Germany was forgiven to allow the European economy to grow. If the Greek debt was to be forgiven, it would be just another episode of feeding a guy with diarrhea… You can feed him as much as you want, but he money would turn to shit just after… I kind of agree with Alina Toarna…
Only if Turkey is allowed into the EU. I dislike the excluding attitude of the Greek Govts to date.
Let Greece go out of Europe if they don’t want to correspond with E.U. finance laws! Let’s see how it would manage in that area with Turkey, Iran and Syria without the so called austerity of E.U.
Everybody has a debt, show me a country without debts.The question is that austerity measures will never permit a country to get back on its feet and be able to repay even a small amount of it. The real problem today is austerity that suppresses growth .
Why? Did Greece go through a devastating war and we didn’t see it?
ofc, let us give an example to everybody: hey, you can borrow as much money as you like and not give them back, nobody is supposed to work anymore
Why? Their system is not working They need to change it.
No
I see some Europeans are forgetting the rule of the previous century when being persecuted by the German government so let me remind you of the quote with some minor changes.
When they came for the greeks, I didn’t speak up because I was not a Greek. When they came for the Portuguese, I said nothing because I was not Portuguese. When they came for the Spaniards, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Spaniard. Then they came for me, but there was no one left to speak for me.
Yes but with some condtions!
Anushka Raghav Vidhi Facebook is also popping up with moot stuff hahahaha
Zaid Sufi Wahidi- lol
Only if they stop corruption. Stop paying government drivers that have not been employed for the last 30 years,etc.
Yes
Haha, even fb wants to help us Zaid Sufi Wahidi Anushka Shah Vidhi Shah
Greece should be helped to stand on her feet. This means jobs, healthcare, education, the ability to count on a better future, and of course democracy… Greek citizens are European citizens. The choice of economic formula is open for deliberation.
You want a monetary union —> you must save Greece. The euro itself is a project of domination of strong economies against poor economies. This is the paradox of the Euro, a monetary union without a State.
Yes. The only problem is that this debt was created to save german banks…
If only everyone realized this as well.The largest part of the debt does not belong to Greece.
Yes
??????. ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???????? ???????. ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ????. ???? ?? ???????????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ? ?????. ? ????????? ?????? ????????? ????????? ??? ??? ????? (“?? ?????? ??? ??????????”) ??? ??? ????????????. ????????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ??? (?????) ??? ???? ???????????? ? ???? ??????? (?????). ????? ??? ????????????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????. ? ?????????? ??? ?? ???????? ???? ???????? ???????? ?? ?????????? ??? ???????. ???? ???????? ??? ???????????…
No. They stole the money.
Yes but Greece should allow EU police to investigate their corruption and crime . EU police should work together with Greek police and destroy their corruption . The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over ?20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was ?28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
I definitely agree! Finally, make EU work as a union! Provide tight control mechanisms across all of its borders and provide help to all states. Greek authorities are handicapped because of corruption and the unwillingness of the EU partners to help. Us europeans need to cooperate on this and destroy corruption inside EU (don’t forget that German authorities are not providing any help to the Greek state which investigates the Siemens corruption case. On the contrary they provide “asylum” to Christoforakos!)
Yes!
Greeks are sacks!
Greece alternatives: pay the debt and reform the system to be sustainable; or just get out of EU. If it was easy to get in by using Goldman Sachs, it’s also easy to get out.
Yes, it has to be forgiven, of course.
Monetary Phenomena: “TYRANNY OF THE STATUS QUO”
“The purely monetary connection between ruler and subject demonstrated the absence of any other relationship. The continuous depreciation of currency by rulers was an appropriate technique within such a relationship; for these methods, which give all the benefits to one side and the entire loss to the other. This has been traced to the fiscal policy of rulers who use the royal prerogative of coinage as a means of taxation without concern for the consequences of devaluation”- Georg Simmel, from Philosophy of Money.
The progressive deterioration in the value of money through history is not an accident, and has had behind it two great driving forces- the impecuniousity of governments and the superior political influance of the debtor class. The power of taxation by currency depreciation in one which has been inherent in the state. The creation of legal tender has been and is a government’s ultimate reserve and no state or government is likely to degree its own downfall, so long as this instrument still lies at hand unused
No.ask me why.
Well, if debts were about to be paid from countrie’s responsible politics and the part of citizens that got rich during illegal actions in and outside of each country, I would choose NO. BUT I CANNOT UNDERSTAND, why politics, nations, commissions, do not defend people and citizens and do not protect them. On the other hand, others countrie’s debts were forgiven for sustainable reasons, not once but many times! So, finally my answer is YES, I believe it is fair for Greek citizens. I am Greek, and I wish to see all the corrupted and responsible ones out of our country at last! Also I would to remind to many of you, that it was Greece in the past, that loaned money for other countries expenses! Is this fair to you?
Yes must be a cooperation a longer time to pay it and stop kill us for mercedes and refrigirators without respect of our lifes …the debt are not just money but tokoi tokoglyfia…..they became rich from us and they love see us….pay and pain.
Here is an interesting article from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) which analysis the economic relationship between the Third Reich and Greece during WWII.
It reads like a deja-vu: Greece had the same problems as today (bloated bureaucracy, unable to serve treaty obligations etc.).
In letters to the editor (postings) readers claim that Greece has still not payed back loans it received from the German Kingdom of Bavaria after Greece’s independence from Turkey in 1827.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/europaeische-union/historische-schulden-die-akte-griechenland-13483054.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/economic-historian-germany-was-biggest-debt-transgressor-of-20th-century-a-769703.html
Go go Greece in Bankrupt.
Sins are only forgiven after confession & only in certain churches- not applicable in legal transactions between elected governments, its politicians & private business!
~14 consecutive years of Greece economic growth ended when huge tax evasion, corruption and structural weaknesses in the Greek economy became too overwhelming.
The good old times ended when government politicians mischievous colluded by accepting “assistance” offered (& taken) by Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase and other banks! Further more, since the mid 1990’s the missing Greek exports & trade differential remained a puzzle. 2014 Exports: E27.2 bill & Imports: E47.7 bill- diff: over ~E20 bill gone- reasons?
Financial Trojan horses were developed which enabled the governments of Greece, Italy and many other European countries (“The Club Med”) to hide their borrowings-by receiving “cash in advance”- eventually ending in disaster. Although the (innocent) Greek workforce working the most (1,900) hours/year among their European fellow workers!
Please, FIRST demand accountability & better governance from your Greek politicians, criminal investigations & prosecutions- not “forgiveness” by other countries taxpayers!
Judge for yourselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis
Don’ t think so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNDsyOJvXmM
No
Greece needs reform and a haircut. However if the EU does that European citizens must not lose a cent!!!ALL THE MONEY THAT GREECE BORROWED FROM EU COUNTRIES MUST BE PAID BACK!!!ALL OF IT!!! We must not be in debt to EUROPEAN STATES!!!!!!!!! Greek politicians need to destroy the oligarchy and pay back the debt to other european states immidietely!!! After this is done Greece should be kicked out or forced out or allowed to leave the EU! Anti-hellenic retoric in the EU is growing and it won’t stop untill we are out. We must PAY BACK ALL THE MONEY AND LEAVE BY OURSELFS!!! ALL THE MONEY BORROWED BY THE EU MUST BE PAID BACK!
An entire generation of Greeks such as my self grew up reading newspapers that say how bad we are as a nation and how corrupt and how lazy…All my life I was pro-EU and pro-Euro but I cant take it anymore, I am done!!! If SYRIZA doesn’t fix the state and doesn’t fight the oligarchy in order to pay the debt to other states, REAL GREEKS LIKE ME MODERATE PEOPLE WHO PAID THEIR TAXES ALL THEIR LIFE WILL GO BERSERK! I am sick and tired of this, the EU, Junker, Daiselblum and all the DEBT!! SYRIZA DESTROY THE OLIGARCHY AND PAY THE DEBT TO OTHER STATES NOW!!!
European people must take their money back and we must be isolated for a couple of decades to grow as a nation become more mature. We can’t be at the center of attention anymore. 1/4 of the population is below the poverty line, if Syriza fails to fight the oligarchy, fix the state and pay all the debt New Democracy and PASOK created you will see a different Greece!
No haircuts, no debt forgiven!!! EUROPE MUST TAKE ALL ITS MONEY BACK! I will not have my children be rediculed by other europeans and be called beggars like I was!
SYRIZA YOU HAVE 6 MONTHS TO DO THIS, IF YOU CANT LEAVE AND LET SOMEONE ELSE TRY!
If everybody loans money, lives like king without thinking of tommorow and after that begs for more and forgivness of its debts – all the world will stop functioning. It’s all your fault my greek neighbours… You should pay now for your easy life in the past.
NO NO NOUP NO NO NO NO
It’s long overdue. Only way they can survive in the European union else Greece has to quit in order to have its own currency so as to devaluate
The debt of every country must be forgiven
Dear friends from Eastern Europe, your complaints are totally understandable, but you’re shooting against the wrong target.
There’s a characteristic story in Greece about this:
There once was an old lady who all she had was a goat! One day, the goat suddenly died. God felt sorry for her and asked what she wanted in return. The old lady answered “I want the neighbor’s goat… dead!!!”
The European integration shall not achieve by the povertization of Greece and its natives, but with the economic-political unification.
OTHERWISE THERE WILL BE THE EUROPE OF PLEBEIANS (of periphery) AND PATRICIANS (of center)!!!
And don’t forget! From the 240 bis that the creditors gave, only 6 went to the Greek economy!
The rest 234 bis was given for the bailout of the German and French banks!!!
So the real question should be” Should the loan that was given to save the german-french banks, be forgiven?”
Germany defaulted on debts totaling nearly 150 billion in the last century to greece, but has zero room for negotiations with the new Greek government?!? Greece needs to reforms its economy but should not be held to a different standard than Germany
Hey…! The US will be next so why not…! Lol…
Stick it to the bankers…!
As is well known, Greece was assisted in its accountancy set up by leading bank players to enable it to be part of the European Union. It was done to expand the European objective as a land grab to enhance the notion of power and size. All of those in on this deal knew for sure Greece and many others they were bringing in were not financially equipped for this move. So the set up was a fraud in the beginning. It was an irresponsible gamble the equivalent of a spin on the roulette table. And they did it knowing they would be bailed out by the workers of the world.
This fraud backfired through the roll of Wall Street ponzi schemes, as it was intended to do, in order to, quite openly, steal the revenue of the European, British and world peoples entire economy and to enable leading billionaires to increase their holdings beyond imagination. It was a game to them. Absorb their smiling faces and brash stance. Monarchs of old have nothing on this crowd.
Addtionally, this theft was perpetrated by government and bank officials also in full knowledge of the risks they were taking with the balance of world finance, but, they wanted to play high rollers to enrich their own portfolios so they could gloat about their tremendous treachery paying off as they predicted. And they continue with it today. The UK chancellor was, once again, trying to sell us the same crock yesterday. Listen carefully to this documentary. These creeps took us all to the cleaners, tell me why you feel the thieves should get away with it whilst expecting the workers to pay for it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQzEWeGJLP0
To put this right those responsible should be personally held to account. All of them and all of their institutions. We should be following the Icelandic method of ridding ourselves of this smug rot.
Greece officials and their financiers conspired with this fraud. Not the Greek people. Or, any other ordinary person in each of our countries, who today are working their balls off trying to get these economies to float again. And take special note of this, how many of these grinning billionaires, who have more than trebled their ludicrousy wealth from this fraud, are paying with their hoards of cash?
The one effective answer would be to confiscate their assetts as they are the pickings of criminal moves to impoversih the peoples of the world. Then use the proceeds to nationalise the lot in order to eliminate their opportunities to do this again. And jail the bastards who complain against these moves to correct the mess they created. Let them squeal in the hell holes they create for others.
The Greek people are not the villains in this disaster and they should not be facing starvation as a result of the greed of those they didn’t even know existed. And that goes for all of us.
And to finish this revellation off, take a look at the low life, trailer trash taste these creeps have. This is what they take us all to the cleaners for. A load of Las Vegas style garbage. Which is an indication of their disturbed satanic mentality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwxP_OZWWRg
What the nazis didn’t manage to do by force and war. The 21st. Century Neo-Nazis have done it by economic means. Germany is the one that should leave EU. +12.000 casualties along Europe have died murdered by German bankers. Nazism is very still alive inside Germans hearts.
No!
Yes.
It’s more complicated than that.
Some sort of a fair deal will have to be reached
the problem is not the debt… but the interest rate!… ECB gives money to private banks at 0.25% and they to Greece at 8%… they say greece is risky… so what if they dont pay? they should pay the 1% like germany, or if you want the 8% but only to 1 every 8 inversors… this would be mathematically elegant…. the rest is just burglery.
Why?!?
…
Sure why not.
No, because then it has to be forgiven to other countries in the similar situation. There is something else wrong here. How can others manage their debts but Greece can’t? Japan has the highest debt in the world, so people there should have been much more discontent with their lives, but they are not. I wonder why? In Europe we have Italy, Iceland, Portugal, Ireland, Cyprus and Belgium – all with national debts exceeding 100% of their GDP. Spain, France and UK owe more than 90% GDP, Germany has 80% debt. They are all working to reduce it and are also suffering as a result. In addition, salaries and pensions in the two poorest states in EU – Romania and Bulgaria, are much lower than in Greece. Then what would be the justification to the hard working and suffering people in all the above mentioned countries, if Greece’s debt is forgiven with a magic wand? This would be totally unjust. What is needed is better management – more to be taken from the rich and less from the poor, the Greek government needs to do its job and collect taxes promptly. Also people there should understand that they need to make some sacrifices, just like their northern neighbours do, by living with lower wages. 80% of Bulgarians are poor by European standards but the country’s 18% debt is not going to be forgiven to help improve the situation. Greece is not the only one in deep crisis, so they cannot claim preferential treatment over others.
how much was the german debt that was forgiven in 1953
No. And the comparison this question drwas is ridiculous and stupid.
Of course, they’ll never make it out of the slump if whatever profits the country is having is being channeled to pay for interest, rather than investment in making the economy grow.
The comparison is the consequence of non realistic rules, yes the Greek debt could be partly forgiven, it is now part of the European debt. The real question is how Europe will run the question in the future.
What has Economics to do with Forgiveness? CONDESCENDING and patronizing! How about HONESTY and good economic SENSE? Like housewives do blissfully oblivous to Power greed and vanity. I PUKE with the MESS you make.Get rid of your CORRUPT.Greece,cradle of Western civilization…My ass
What have you become?! For shame
Germany had a big debt because of a ww2 which was lost. But the difference btw Greece and Germany is the first had a powerful industry and economy which the Allias could only win from. Greece can only dream about such economy, technical progress or else… You have sea and islands. Without the tourism you are nothing.
claro. na mesma proporo e com juros.
1° forgive Greek debt
2° don’t mention the war
3° end of story
OECD stats about “total debt” of the year 2011(2 years after crisis. Imagine before)!!! Check it out! It only takes a minute! You’ll be surprised!!!!!….. https://scontent-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/10305069_10205079571401555_3918063892618512255_n.jpg?oh=026ea671fd2cac355ca02076f2c18122&oe=55802958
The Germany’ s economic wonder was a result of germans’ discipline and hard work which your lazy greek fellows truly lack. West Germany was much more developed to gain something from GDR which was robbed by USSR. South countries are lazy by default. We bulgarians are lazy too. The oriental thinking has made us a bad favour. Nicolas, stop blaming others for your people’s own gilt. You have to start working, not only laying on your back and waiting for the tourists to bring you money. It’ s better and easier that way but you can not only rely on that…
P.S. Greece gave what to Germany? Dust and sand? Oranges or olives? You are pathetic. Greece had worse economy than Bulgaria before 80’s… Your country received enough gifts and last year over 100 bil. were forgiven and other money given to your country. You people are so arrogant. You think you Hellas is the start and end of everything in this world… I am sorry to inform you your glory has ended thousands years ago.
More to the point how many billions had Germany stolen from Greece during the war. Who encouraged the civil war that followed and who backed the right wing military junta that followed that. And yes, if you take a back look on History, Hellas gave a lot more to the world than the world has given to Hellas. This is not arrogance just a perspective of History.
Let them breethe. Welfare for all Europeans. http://www.WWSEEP.com .
Nicolas, for example I don’ t blame anyone but ourselves for Bulgaria’s fate. Yes, USSR used us, now the west and especialy USA are using us. But who is to blame? Our own politicians – national trators sold us for little money. We deserve what Bulgaria has turned to. We destroyed everything good in our country. Now we are slaves to foreign countries which are building what they paid our politicians to destroy…
Who’s hard working… and who’s lazy????????….. http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS
OECD stats about “total debt” of the year 2011(2 years after crisis. Imagine before)!!! Check it out! It only takes a minute! You’ll be surprised!!!!!…. https://scontent-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/10305069_10205079571401555_3918063892618512255_n.jpg?oh=026ea671fd2cac355ca02076f2c18122&oe=55802958
http://agonaskritis.gr/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/workers.jpg
The belittlement of Greece and the character assassination of the modern Greek National character littering the media originates from (corporate) Hermanic sources. To make Europe Hermanic necessitates the belittlement of Greece. Greece stands in the way of Hermanic expansion eastwards, towards Ukraine. A weak subdued Greece, skint and destitute, paves the way for Germany to focus Hermanic interests eastwards. Let it be known that Greece and her allies challenge Hermanic domination of Europe…face to face – eyeball to eyeball!
Hermanic Europe…where only Hermanic countries develop and prosper is in nobody’s interest sept Merkels and Schaubles. Suspicions that Germany is working on blueprint for total economic-domination of Europe first, then cultural-domination later are rife!
Domination of continental Celtic countries is almost complete. See the cowing of Celtic Iberia, Cisalpine-Italy and Transalpine Europe. Domination of West-Slavic Europe and South-Slavic Europe next. With Hellenic and Latin areas of Europe subdued into insignificance…Hermanic Europe pushes eastwards towards Ukraine. The economic and cultural domination of Europe then completes. Hermanic Europe scripts itself cultural-historical narrative to common ancestor (Karalos Magnos) Charles the Great and future Hermans are raised on this.
Greco-Roman classicist history becomes insignificant in Hermanic-Europe. Greeks and Latins can wallow in their own nostalgia like the lazy, cheating, southern Europeans they are…in Hermanic eyes.
Can You See it Now!
No, but its interest should be reduce or eliminated. And the debt audited as to what is real debt and what is not. Europe made a huge mistake providing money to banks to buy state debt. Euro central bank should of bought the debt at the same interest it loaned the money to banks. This way the states would be spending billions in paying back interests to these banks. But since the EU was made for big business and the elite, the scam came full circle.
Yes but EU should send police there and hunt gangsters in the same way American was hunting Nazis . If they don’t destroy corruption in few Years time they are going to make the same thing .
Should BE in the some conditions like Germany has in 1953,..
Yes ! Absolutely
debt is virtual, a simple piece of paper
Markets dont expect repayment to pari anyway (current bond prices 60%) … better change greek bonds into an inclusive european bond 1:5 or 1:10 with a special option/coupon in correlation of future growth in the eurozone or something like that
No !!!!!
Independently from the positive or negative answer on the Greek-debt-forgiving question independently from the actual parallelism (I have not enough knowledge on the actual Greek question), a question regarding the actual parallelism: does the moderator know that there was no Germany yet (as we now know it) in 1953?
The Economic consequences of the pace – John Maynard Keynes
I have a further question: is the legal framework the same as 1953? I don’t think so, or maybe I missed something about the last 60 years of history.
It is not only German money, so no, it is OUR money too. We want payment, commitment and reforms, so there will not be a repeat, do not trust Greeks
Definately!!!
.
No, they should declare bankruptcy while in the EuroZone and let all 19 countries pay off their debt.
Share the currency, share the debt, share the misery.
No.
Greece can’t possibly repay the level of debt incurred, so there will eventually have to be some element of debt forgiveness somewhere down the line. What Syriza must learn is that their manner of going about this is ham-fisted and counter-productive; they cannot unilaterally divest themselves of the obligations signed up to by previous Greek Governments. These war reparation demands are a convenient smokescreen from the runaway spending policies which brought this situation about in the first place.
Yes, of course!
Never!
even if greece had no debt at all, they still wouldn’t be able to survive.
yes
Yes.
No.
Money is debt! However, all debt will have to be “forgiven” at some point, it’s only logical. The ancient Israelites came up with the very sensible idea of a debt forgiveness “jubilee” every 50 years (Leviticus 25:8-13). Unfortunately, their modern day spiritual descendants seem to have forgotten, leaving bankruptcy and war as the only mechanisms for achieving the same effect.
Noo
yes, of course.
Yes !!
The total under negotiation was 16 billion marks of debt resulting from the Treaty of Versailles after World War I which had not been paid in the 1930s, but which Germany decided to repay to restore its reputation. This money was owed to government and private banks in the U.S., France and Britain. Another 16 billion marks represented postwar loans by the U.S. Under the London Debts Agreement of 1953, the repayable amount was reduced by 50% to about 15 billion marks and stretched out over 30 years, and compared to the fast-growing German economy were of minor impact.
The parties that were involved besides West Germany included Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Great Britain, Greece, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa, the United States, Yugoslavia and others. The states of the Eastern Bloc were not involved. The negotiations lasted from February 27 to August 8, 1953. On 3 October 2010 the last payment was made of 69.9 million euro.
http://www.thepressproject.net/article/74741/Debt-and-shame-Its-time-for-a-new-narrative
No, it should not. The two situations are very different.
yes, they will never repay it
Exactly how much of the debt has been paid to date? Isn’t true that the debt in fact has increased due to continues lending by the Greek government. And if the debt is wiped clean, who is actually paying for that? Banks have money because people put them there! If the EU is paying to scratch the debt, its in fact the tax money belonging to other european citizens which is used to pay for the greek peoples debt. Tax money that was actually intended to send their kids to school and to pay for healthcare etc… Money is not just created out of thin air, in the end there is always someone who has to pay!… If not our greek friends, its us… I think its scary that so many commenters here seam to think that money can just be created out of air…
Join the BRICS :)
It should be re structured to make it manageable. Debt isn’t a problem, it when you’re debt is a total millstone that it is.
The no voice indefinitely in a minority in this discussion
Some Germans today insist that a debt is a debt, and that Greece must repay in full. They should know better from their own history, starting with Keynes?s unsuccessful plea to lower Germany?s reparations burden. They should recall the relief that Germany was granted through the Marshall plan, and the 1953 London agreement on German debts. Did Germany ?deserve? the relief in 1953? That was not the right question. Germany?s new democracy needed the relief, and Germany needed a fresh start. It played a major role in the economic recovery and construction of Germany?s democratic institutions. ( http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/21/greece-profit-german-history-1953-debt-relief )
no
it should be forgiven just the part of germany, which is just few milions euros, but debts of greece are ten times higher. this is just for hiding the truth.
Of course, why not, western europe made horrible things in the past to be at this stage and now, they are talking about debts wich you are forced to make them.
Ich schlage vor, dass nur die Teil von Greechenlands Schulden sind entlassen die entsprechen die Kriegsschulden von Deutschland. Aber es ist nur wenige milionen euro, ich habe gehoert es ist nur eine Viertel Miliarde euro, abe Griechenland schuldet ihrer Glaeubiger einige Drei hundert miliarden euro. Es ist nur zu borgen die Wahrheit.
You have already exhausted the people. They make suizide, and have no chance for a generation. poor greece, which were destroyed by Ideology. https://secure.avaaz.org/de/krankenhauser_und_schulen_far_griechenland_ne/?tZWCdab
EU should be based on human rights, not on money. http://www.WWSEEP.com
Yes, of course but with restrictions on the political elite, the political framework and corruption that is unfortunately such a ‘feature’ of Greece.
Do you Know that the Athens stock Market is free of tax on gain?
Please, educate yourself better and question whatever propaganda is served by the mass media. The Athens stock Market tax on gain starts at 15% ..
Stop reading the “SUN”. It distorts the brain
The Greek problem is a problem of tax recovery and it stands for years
????? 1953 was after WW2.Now Greece is after a 2004-2011 Party of others people money!!……
In other words……you recognize that the euro is in fact the german mark?
@ 4:00 mins .. To the many stereo type ignorant racists, childish comments based on ignorance and racist views, are lame .. The situation is Greece is far more complicated than most realize, theres ALLOT the dumbed down public dont know about .. Kick Greece out and BRICS will welcome it the next morning, as for the rest of Europe they can turn to broke bankrupt US and its 18 TRILLION debt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmF9A3V1Xik
In France we have the other hand of the problem : too many civil servants recovering taxes… But markets like that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsbSrTgqxgA
of course it should. Everything else is immoral: protecting the banks and speculators rather than the greek people
The greek problem is trust in the state…..the greek state is voracious and the citizens try to survive..politicians are robbing the people through the state and its catastrophic bureaucratic mechanism.
No. I am a greek and I hope that through the dept, Europe will control the financial doing in Greece, which basically is a problem occuring due to potilical missuse of power.
Come on people it is 2015 ,be responsible, Greece should pay back to Europe, like every one …
No
Absolutely not!! The situation – that the debt is part and expression – is not all comparable. To compare it, in any way , goes on the same ‘path’ of the nationalist right in Germany on the twenties and thirties.
I thought the greek debt WAS already forgiven several times. Moreover, in 1953 the WW2 was not so long time ago. So the question is WHY should Europe again solve the greek economy without any reforms. And if it happens, i suppose, every european country can have such “forgiveness”.
Could you elaborate more on when the greek debt was already forgiven several times?
Greece debt should be forgiven because in this way Greeks will see an economic growth that helps also Western Ballkan. All the states in the world have depts… I wonder to who?!!!
No.
debt forgiveness?That will creat a channel for other poor members to pass through.Lets not forget that Spain,Portugal,France,Italy all have similar symptoms.We in Germany are also not internally debt free.Most communities are in dare need of basic infractructures.Immigrants are here well treated and housed.All these cost us money.So it will be proper if a member country atleast come up with solutions instead of hoping for debt pardon.
Nope, if they do that, everyone would want a cut.
What we need in Greece is simple. That Germans wake up for one minute and demand from their government to extradite the Greek criminals in Germany responsible for handling bribes in most of the economic scandals during the prevous 25 years. Second, we need Germans to understand that they should watch less TV and read more German authors inspired by the Hellenic spirit and ideals. They are quite a few…Thirdly, guys we are a country richer than yours. Germany stinks like shit. Your water is of the lowest quality. Your dairy products too. And meat? Let’s forget it. Fruit? And the list could go on. Recognize that your chemical industrial cartels are responsible for massacres so that they can patent Nature only to screw it and then to demand the South to pay for the bill. We don’t need your BMWs, your Siemens shit or whatever. We need you to fucking wake up and demand justice in Europe.
And if you expect the Greek people to pay back money sure, no problem. Let’s see how much money was distributed to people and how much was given to bankers run by German bosses. Are you idiots? Are you insane? We would all be driving around in 750iL limos….You don’t see the scum? Which Greeks should pay? The ones who work more than you? And had their pensions stolen by a bunch of criminal Central Bankers?
Of course no, it’s ALL eurozone countries money. So dear Greece, start working and give back what is ours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUlUh-nY1UY
Keep it for you.
And don’t set your dirty barbarian feet here.
If you turn pages the pages of history to suit your argument, you will always find a precedent to suit your case.
Germen debt was paid.
Yes, but also the portuguese and irish one
No.
Where is the money? The “Greeks” got it….how STUPID are you guys?
Did you really do any research before you claim such bullshit?
DO you really KNOW what is going on in Europe?
How HONEST is your BANK?
Here’s what an honest German said once…
And all of you so cool…..like they are not going to stampede upon you when they are done ripping off the others….
I admire Germany for many reasons. But if you people believe for a minute that the “Greeks” stole your money you are at least MISINFORMED. Some of you are aware….the others are too busy apparently within their fake euphoria…is it possible 7000 people commited suicide because they were rich? Or we are lazy and don’t want to work? CHECK THE MOTHER FUCKIN STATISTICS OF THE EU.
And CHECK WHERE THERE IS STILL CLEAN WATER AND BLUE SKIES.
yes
Only if the EU wants the Greeks to remain the bumbling step-children who cannot figure out how to control their money.of Europe
yes
Yes,i support Greece,I’m Albanian
not forgiven entirely, but partial and a sustainable! solution for the rest would keep everybody happy
If I got a debt and I don’t pay it I’ll get a lot of problems with bank, justice etc. So they both should pay their respective debt!
At least let’s talk about that and debate!!
Nein, die Finanztransaktionen im Zusammenhang mit der Griechenlandkrise gehren rckabgewickelt. Wre interessant zu sehen, wo die Schuldenblase dann aufplatzt.
GERMANY HAD PAY LESS THAN THE HALF DEBT UNTIL 1953
WE (GREEKS) HAD PAY 4 TIMES THE DEBT UNTIL 2013 !!!!!!!
THERE IS A BIG DEFERENT !!!!!!
Greece has not be given 1 ????.?he money went to market and bank vultures through greek loans.Plus Germany owes Greece 600 billion euros for WWII loans and reparations acc inter law.
http://www.koutipandoras.gr/article/136174/ta-atimorita-egklimata-tis-germanikis-merarhias-entelvais-poy-aimatokylise-tin-ipeiro
yes!!!!
Yes
Yes
yes. Germany had a Marshall plan after destroying most of Europe and after millions of murders… Greece has done nothing like that and is paying big bankers in the name of austerity… It should be at least, easier to pay.
No fucking way, no. Guys go to greece and talk with locals about their view of economy and their state. This is fucking communism.
The ” social democracies” have always mortgaged the future for the votes of the present.
How many countries actually have no debt?Imagine a world where the U.S. cancelled it’s debt.
no
Germany has to pay compensation to Greece,
When the Germans occupied Greece they didint come to drink a coffee they comite crime they kill people they should pay for their action.
YES
These two situations are VERY different. Until Greece reforms its economic philosophy they will just get into debt again.
If Germans owe it they have to pay. The’ve already had the Marshall Plan.
there is no valid reason for it
The problem is not the “debt” but the lack of commitement of greek elite politicians to in fact “REFORM” the country. And by reforming, no it is not simply cut wages, that is not refoming, reforming is fighting corruption, hevay penaltie for runing away from taxes, cut expense in the state, like politicans wages transport subsidies and son, seperate church from state including stoping funding of the church and so on! Until this happen, greece is basically going to remain the “same” and even if the debt is forgiven now, the country in the near future is going to hvae to be bailed again, because of the lack of reform and more impontatly the WILL to inf FACT reform!
No! Should work more effective and pay their debts!
Greece forced to get into “bailout programmes” on 2009 because THE DEBT WAS 120% of GDP… and it WAS NOT SUSTAINABLE!!!
Today after the “success” of the bailout programmes ;) the debt INCREASED TO 180%… AND IT’S SUSTAINABLE!!!!!!
You’re really funny guys!!!
According to standard practice all over the world, if a debt is not sustainable, it should be forgiven!!!
I. Wish. My. Debt. Was. Forgevin…….
we’re tlking about war reparation here…
Il faut relire l histoire exacte de l’accession au march commun puis l europe par la Grce. C est le fruit d un march de dupe orchestr par les franais. La Grce ne possdait dj pas l poque le rsultat financier suffisant que pour intgrer le groupe, et ne l a jamais obtenu par la suite. D normes sommes d argent lui ont t attribues sans aucun retour. Ce pays, que par ailleurs j apprcie normment nous a cot depuis de faramineux montants jamais rembourss. Le premier ministre grec de l poque reconnaissait lui mme … Avoir bien jou le coup… Et avoir t intgr dans notre communaut conomique juste sur base de la sympathie apporte au pays berceau de la dmocratie. Aucun effort n est encore accompli, devons nous continuer les financer. N hsitez pas a regarder le reportage difiant ” dossier confidentiel” sur France 3, il vaut mieux qu un long discours.
N’ oubliez pas que l’ économie grécque se base aux imports de produits européens. Tout l’ argent donné à Grece a été retourne a l’ économie Francaise pour acheter des avions et des bateaux militaires, des voitures, des appareils électriques etc. Si l’ argent était resté en Grece, il n’ y aurait aucune crise.
When will Greece leave the euro? It was so easy to get in with goldman sachs help right? Make everyone a favor including yourself: leave!
la Grece n’aurais jamais du etre admis au marche commun. Les autorites a bruxelles qui ont donne leur accord sommes fautif surtout.
Fernando that;s not the question of the post! But even so, if Greece will leave, it’s more than certain than the next is… Portugal!!!! ;)
Yes
YES!
Yes ???? ?? ?????? ???!
no …
Why don’t they simply declare bankruptcy? They have been insolvent since 2009. Now they’re also illiquid because EU/ECB/IMF insist that the bonuses of rich Franco-German bankers are more important than some elderly Greek’s small pension. I repeat, they’re better off without the Euro, I just cannot understand why they don’t ditch the wealth-destroying Euro.
Didn’t the IMF suggest last week that Greece should simply stop paying salaries for civil servants for a while to fund the Franco-German banker bonuses?
Forgiven yes, forgotten not. All Hellenes must not make the same mistakes again. If we end up saved, we will have to prove that we are Europeans too.
Their freakin’ economy has shrunk 25%. Maybe that turnip has been squoze hard enough?
1 What you call a bailout programm is a joke.2 Your moto is save the banks kill the people 3 Countries that will follow in default have citizens that say NO.4 you get money with lower interest and you loan us and make profits! 5 Greece can’t pay that debt since she couldn’t pay it 5 years ago when she entered the memorandum. 6 the first phrase of the Greek constitution says that POWER COMES FROM THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.Under these circumstances I don’t mind eating stones wether debt is forgiven or not.WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS NOT EUROPE!ITS EUROLIGARCHY!!!
And since we are a sovereign nation state we can give our ass to whoever pimp will give us more.there are many pimps worldwide you know….
Obviously.
Different times, different measures. No!
No way and fifty percent interes so the Greek people need to move there ass and work hard
I think that all the greek people salute you for your solidarity and well educated answer.
No. If their debt is forgiven with this system they will just keep spendind the way that eventually destroyed them and this time they won’t even find money to loan. In the long term it will harm Greece more than Greek politicians.
I don’t think that cancelling the debts solves the problem. Greece should come up with a sustainable “business model”. There are several ways to develop an economic perspective for Greece. What only a few people know, is that Greece has rich resources of oil and gas within its reach. Greece could be another Norway and thus pay back ALL of its debt within the next 20 years.
Another strategy for a new economic model is what all countries of Europe should do:
Instead of making public debt, use private capital to build infrastructure. This proposal by the German author Dirk Müller seems very convincing to me.
http://www.wiwo.de/finanzen/boerse/dirk-mueller-loest-mr-dax-die-krise/8138702-3.html
In a nutshell:
Mobilize private investor’s money to strengthen Europe’s energy infrastructure (renewables, long distance power lines, energy internet etc.). In Europe, private investors have several trillion (X,000,000,000,000) euros available to invest. Much of this money is held by pension funds who are currently investing a big part in government bonds because they are only allowed to invest in “bullet-proof” assets. Instead of trying to stimulate the loan business by ECB interventions, the EU or its member states could give a guarantee on the money invested in the infrastructure. In the worst case the member state must buy the infrastructure for the guaranteed price (but the state gets a public good for it).
sorry guys, in the German cas this haapend, in the case of Greece there was no war.EU should make it easyer to the country to pay it back, but they have to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0FM_7_drf0
” Critics say that this argument amounts to cheap populism. Greece lied about its debts, and the economy was mired in corruption, bureaucracy, tax evasion and generous social perks afforded to Greek citizens. In other words, critics believe Greece does not “deserve” debt forgiveness. ”
First STOP with the standard EU political propaganda about the so called lies from the Greek government.
Who accepted Athens after Goldman Sachs had “cleaned-up” the Greek financial books?
All EU politicians did.
Who said we gonna assist Athens at the crisis start?
All EU politicians did.
In 2000 the same EU poltitians knew about the risks, but claimed all criticasters were wrong.
By now we know the EU politicians were wrong. The IMF already admitted their mistakes. The EU politicians AGAIN think to know better.
Give the Greek the chance to grow.
Greece can have its debt cut or its reparations (which would basically be the same because greece is indebted to germany already). However it wouldn’t solve greece’s main problem: forming a working bureaucracy, taxation system and a healthy economy and national budget.
So the country should working torwards this before it claims the other. Otherwise nothing will change.
Yes. The current chokehold on Greece by its European creditors is counterproductive and motivated by Lutheran ethics of the German elite – not by any interest in European integration and Greek salvation, nor by sound economic analysis. The root of the problem is the chronic lack of solidarity from Europe when it comes to Greece’s eastern (and northern) neighbors, who maintain territorial claims against her even to this day! The Greek economy would not be in ruins if it were not for the billions spent purchasing French military aircraft and German submarines at exorbitant prices..
We need a Marshall plan to help sort Greece’s problems. The people being punished in Greece are the low paid, that actually pay their taxes.
Yes, any funding should be carefully monitored. The corrupt and the very rich, who decline to pay their taxes, need to be hammered.
But, let’s face it – most of the bail out – is bailing out banks from other parts of the EU, many German, who gave Greek banks credit, allowing them to fund the rich to buy their Mercedes cars.
Of course.
NO
Yes…
Yes!!!
No! German tax payer should not pay tax anymore than if their money are used to keep greece alive.
Yes. Let us end the misery and march towards prosperity and development.
No.
No, every legal debt should be re-payed to the last cent!
And, PS it is not only German taxpayers money, but of the whole EU.
Why only “greek debt”? Why not portuguese debt as well?
All debt will eventually have to be forgiven. The question is: do “we” need war in order to create the conditions under which debt may be forgiven?
Germany was piles of rubble and refugees. Hardly a similar situation. But I think if it was tied to conditionality-Greek gov should sever its links with Putin, support Ukraine and publicly disassociate itself from the Russian far right, and back down on the Macedonia name issue-under such circumstances Greek debt could be forgiven.
No. Greece is a problem in the region. They have problems with Turkey, Albania, Macedonia……. And for stupid reasons.
??.Instead Germany must pay 600 billions for WWII loans and reparations to Greece accord.INTERNATIONAL law.Greece must pay any loans paid to it and not to market vultures THROUGH Greece.
.
The other 18 countries in the Eurozone should pay off Greece’s debts.
Yes.
Hell no,, how about giving it to more worthy countries in the east then corrupt toilets like Greece
Will you lot forgive the Portugal, Ireland, Spain debt then????
No you wouldn’t!
Didn’t think so!
So why we should forgive Greece debt then? Just because they asking for it, or because they threatening to destabilize the eurozone?
I think is time to kick out those cowboys from Europe
No
.
The Euro (as a tool of EU integration) was suppose to bring peace & prosperity to the peoples of Europe, instead it as given mass unemployment & misery in the name of European federalism.
Thank god we weren’t stupid enough to join it.
We don’t want to be forgiven or debts.but we want Germany ,to pay her debts to Greece too…is the double amount than the amount that my country owns. ..
Eris Ahmetaj are you some sort of fanatic racist who likes the idea of 10millions souls death? Greek citicens are the problem in the region ? And the Albanians the Turks have the perfect political and economical system? Read history as it is and you might understand that Skopie as part of former Yugoslavia was be a part of the ancient Macedonia and part of later Vizantium but today they cannot change history and they cannot keep on raising generations with so much hate as the one you express here today.
Greek debt, in fact is German debt!
:)) Yeah right !
Why should it be forgiven? So that the greeks can keep living like Germans while not working at all? The debt must be paid if we want a fair EU.
Dont bielive it.
Of course yes. Many countries help to Germany with the rebuilding of the II war.
What ever people thoughts r eu will help Greece becouse it’s a big gate for eu even that Greece dosnt respect any of eu laws.grecce is steel in law war with Albania and they r steel in eu which is not ligal becouse eu is making Serbia to know Kosovo as independent which they don’t and they can enter eu
all this highly paid analysts and economics experts can’t get it right and even when they do admit they got it wrong allow Germany to continue to harass the hell out of Greece
Whatever the opinion of Greek crisis experts are on the debt forgiving, this one is a wrong parallelism. Germany, at the end of WWII and after it, went through a time which has little to be envied from other countries. It was not just a matter of money, the ”package” they got included many other things (including division), and if one cherry-picks only the debt thing (which I am not sure if it was forgiven), it would seem unappropiriated to me. And then in 1953 there was no Germany yet, so…
hang on a mo! Greece was never given back the millions in gold and art which was stolen! fair’s fair!
There is not any other solution,probably seems unfair,but if we look at the people and not at the numbers ,it’s necessary to be forgiven.
Repost!
Yes of course it should. The money just goes to the banks. The money would be best served if it could be used to support capitAl projects to create jobs and get the economy going, better used support social structures such as welfare and education. These should be the priorities
and not the needs of the bankers.
What is fair , is fair . Germany was forgiven , why not Greece …
The Greek created their mess themselves, almost all Greek had profit of the fraude that took place for years. The thought that you can spend more than you earn it still a common thought. The idea that you better avoid paying taxes is still normal. The thought of being forgiven is also considered normal, so unless there is a change of thinking and acting, there is no way that the Greek can be forgiven. I am in favor of a European aid system (temporary European Welfare) for those who are threatened to become the biggest victims of the Greek fraude. For the people of course Europe should also show that they stand shoulder to shoulder with those that cannot held responsible.
As to the debt issue you still keep on asking the wrong questions without taking into consideration the following: Should German companies be involved in almost every political scandal in Greece? Should we really as cirizens pay europe s bank system bail out? Should Europe use ECB as a blackmail tool to so many countries in order to force neoliberal policies and austerity meassures turning millions of its citizens to cheap labour privatising at the same assets like public health systems? Forgive me as a citizen why? I have never asked or taken anything from any German citizen. I work all my life in the private sector always pay my taxes. Forgive me for what?
Kick Greece out. They falsified there Balance Sheets to get into the EUROZONE.
Kick your face and hope that will be pretty!
Must find a way to see all the debts. South europe is pressing from Euro and from the debts that our stupid goverments creates…with bankers
Never
Yes.
Absolutely not. That is not going to help anyone. Its quite clear by now, that Greeks cant handle the money – when we look at the cold facts. But is it just as easy as that? Hardly. This whole chrisis should have been dealed far more better by dealing with crediters directly, whom now got it all and rest of us loose every day. I must strongly wonder if we have INTELLIGENT persons dealing this chrisis.
Yes
anna abba
Forgiven or not….the problem is the same….it will never be paid back because they don’t give them the means to do so. …with all the austerity measures …and the lack of independance due to the euro and its central bank.For those who say no without thinking…..i must remind you that many countries had their debt annuled…..For those who express hatred or super nationalistic arguments….forget about europe. ..we try to live together in harmony and peace….that is what europe is about……and for those who condemn the greeks about tax fraud…..just be sure that you live in a clean country and with clean citizens before judging the others.. …every day we hear about scandals…and they are not especially greeks.. …greeks are small fish compared to others in that matter.
No. The debt should not be “forgiven”. The Germans of today should pay the war compensation and the german company that took advantage the Athens airport for 10 tax-escaping years, along with everybody else who has not been paying taxes, should pay towards the debt. BUT… there is HUGE misplanning, mistrust, corruption and numerous reasons that have literally captivate this nation and all the other European nations. In Greece, the tax laws are ridiculous! You pay taxes from things you do not actually have, and things that they think you might have. If I want to make a small company I have to prepay a lot of things in order to open it and of course you need to have a huge amount in order to sustain it. In other countries you have time to check how the business is going. In Greece, you are either ruined before you open, or you have to be super successful, or you do not pay taxes in hope things will get better… The fact that nobody talks about these things and how we can really work together not towards paying our debt, but thrive, is beyond me!
Even if it were forgiven, we would be back in the same boat. The issue is the massive deficit we have been driving up. Even if 100% of the debt were written off tomorrow, we wouldn’t be able to finance ourselves past the next couple of months. Greece needs massive reforms first – the debt is a secondary issue.
No way!
This is not the question as we never saw the greek minister ask for it. What they want is to reestructure the debt and its repayment conditions so they can met the economic grouth. The same should be done for the All eurozone countries.
We, in Portugal, have suffered, and are still suffering, a lot to pay our debt. The same happens to the Irish, et all. Why would the Greek be specially exempt from the duty to pay debts? Why not the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Irish… and all the others?
An exemption to pay foreign debt inside the Eurozone cannot be dealt with specifically for one privileged country, but for all the European Union.
The Greece always have been Europe’s spoiled little beatch !!!
So let them pay if they want good life!!!
Then Eastern European countries would be entitled to far far far far more money
Absolutely forgiven! Greek people need to be trusted.
Of course, and change the rules with the Parlament lender of last resort
I THINK NO. WE SHOULD PAY THE LOANS WE GOT AS WE DO NOW. FOR ALL MY EUROPEAN FRIENDS WE TOOK A LOAN AND UNTILL NOW WE ARE PAYING ALL THE INTERESTS. EUROPE DIDN’T GIVE US NOTHING FOR FREE. GREEKS WORK HARD BUT ALSO THEY PARTY HARD. AS FOR THE GERMAN DEBT IN THE WAR WORLD 2 THAT GERMANS STARTED AND KILLED MILLION SOULS AND DESTROYED BURNED TO THE GROUND ALL EUROPE. THEY FORCED GREECE TO GIVE THEM MONEY WITH OUT OUR WILL(STEALING NO BORROWING) SO IT IS NOT A MATTER OF A DEBT IT’S A MATTER OF GIVING BACK WHAT THEY STOLE AS THEY DID TO OTHER COUNTRIES. SO AS WE PAY OUR DEBT THEY SHOULD ALSO.
US of Europe
German’s situation in 1953 was very different to Greece’ situation now. The German debt in 1953 was not caused by loan but court order after a war. Second, Greece is much better shape now than German was in 1945 – 53. Greece’s creditors must decide whether Greece’ debt may be forgiven. Part of the debt was already forgiven earlier. .
Germany destroys half europe steals our gold inWW2, kills hundreads of thousands of Greeks and gets her debt forgiven. Greece implements the capitaslist system of Europe imports the biggest amount of german products all these years ‘no debts should be forgive. I seee your logic there
The investment veteran George Soros has said that Greece’s attempts to escape its financial woes are now a “lose-lose game”,
The best that can happen is actually muddling through,” Mr Soros said in a Bloomberg Television interview that will be shown on Tuesday. “Greece is a long-festering problem that was mishandled from the beginning by all parties.”
The point that Soros is making is that whilst reforms are possibly the right way, the mess is so bad that a middle ground is needed. If people cannot earn more money, there is no way to grow your economy out of debt. So maybe a new soltuon is required where the debt is re-structured and support is given to get the reforms into place and tax collection effective. A write off seems a little too easy – we can find a better solution if we want to.
All you Germans frothing at the mouth would do well to remember that you have already profited more than enough with the suffering of the Greek people.
Yes
Seems there’s a pretty big confusion between what is asked and what is being discussed (some people clearly confuse direct loans, non-reimbursable funds and Greece’s debt).
1. European non-reimbursable funds given through a variety of means don’t count towards the debt and nobody’s asking for those.
2. Direct loans are between the state and whoever loaned the money. Loan agreements do count towards the debt but each loan agreement comes with its own terms and is held by whoever gave the funds.
3. Greece’s debt comes from a variety of sources (including internal). Why doesn’t Greece write off its internal debt? Why doesn’t Greece force Greek banks such as Piraeus to write off the debt? The answer is pretty simple: Piraeus would effectively lose that part of the capital which stands on the theoretical collection of that debt, would lose rating (already low due to this very reason) and would have to fire people or even declare bankruptcy.
4. Germany’s debt isn’t at all the same as the Greek debt. Germany’s debt was owed by the German state to the Greek state as war reparations. It was written off, period.
5. Greece’s current debt is only partly owed by states (pretty small part, considering the size of the debt). Germany owns a fraction of that, while private German institutions (banks, funds, etc) own much more. Just like Greece won’t write off debt owned by Greek financial institutions, other countries won’t write off similarly owned debt. And it’s good that they shouldn’t.
Sure, we can talk all they over the unfairness of the fact that banks (French, German, Irish, Greek and others, altogether) were given a bailout (non-reimbursable, by the way, for all intents and purposes) but until we have a better system and a way to replace the current one, that’s something we need to live with (and will happen again if the debt owned by those banks is written off).
So no, no parallels are possible here. But hey, if it’s a popular opinion, let’s write off all debts, Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, Irish, etc, let the banks go bankrupt together with all the pension funds, savings and investment accounts (yeah, deposits, checking and salary accounts are safe). Let every european pay for a state’s over spending.
Yes, and also the debt of the other countries. It would be a fresh start for a new Europe. What is the future of Europe under the actual circumnstances?
First, Greece needs to fix the internal problems that led to the debt in the first place. Meanwhile, the World needs to give Greece a chance and stop protecting the oligarchs that are to blame for the debt.
In parallel we all need to give the new players a chance. We need to stop calling them names and presupposing their failure. This is most important, and the press and their homemade prophets have much to blame.
Then we can talk again about any forgiveness.
Until then, let us give the new government a chance to fix things.
Yes
Yes
Yes of course, the dept of Greece exists in order for some countries with the latest Greek government to make big business for their good without thinking Greek people. These countries with governments have to pay and not US
Definitely, Yes!
the problem is not the debt in itself but the interests charged on the debt!
OFCOURSE
I think forgiving the Greek debt would create a dangerous precedent in Europe and EU, because Greece is not the only country who owes another country (or EU) large sums of money. We haven’t yet seen any willingness for improvement from the Greek government, who has been in power for a few months now, and it’s focusing only on rhetoric and propagandist purposes (such as the essence of this topic, in itself).
This is not the question? No one in Greece, not even our current left government asks for
Greeks can’t pay back , all should accept that. Their dept is 175.1% of GDP (2013) , that is imposible to pay back .
Corruption and crime : Problem , you should understand Greeks ! You borrow money to corrupt country like Greece or Croatia and those money just disperse . The only thing that is left is a huge debt to poor folk . Poor folk is than just a slave to the banks but rich-corrupt people send money to secret accounts in Switzerland and other countries. Than you have problem that poor people are very angry just because they have to pay back a huge amount of cash and they have to spend life in poverty . EU should help corrupt countries in their fight against corruption and tax evasion , how much in tax has been collected from example Apple and Google in Greece = 0.00 $ . European System of Central Banks should write off debts , arrest gangsters and help poor countries to become free of slavery . http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
BBC – tax evasion : Mr Henry said his $21tn is actually a conservative figure and the true scale could be $32tn. A trillion is 1,000 billion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097
Greek cash is in Swiss banks . The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over ?20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was ?28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
No!
Yes, with application of anticorruption law, in Greece and Europe ;) !
NO.
This must be aeuropean question, no german
Yes on that part caused by lehmann brothers crisis. On the other part partly
Yes of course!!
Good question. Maybe not forgiven but to leave to the Greeks how they will pay out. There are also other ways of payment out. Greek’s historical contribution to the history of Europe is enormous. Maybe some other values should be expressed or mapped to money values. And again this is not the problem of Greece. It is the problem of whole Southern Europe. What was the status before countries entered into EU and Euro zone and what was the trend an what is the status now. Guess there should be more objective view and free of pre-judgements.
Let us be honest that all world disasters in history began and initiated further repression where everybody lost , were started because of hard positions of small ( even non relevant ) elite groups who were not able to sense the harmony and development issues i nthe world. We must know that money and figures in balance sheets of the global systems are just dead numbers and bring no business success nor added value nor profit if processes they feed are processes of desintegration and making enforcements. Desintegration of EU that is happening now has no one any benefit. Someone told me few days ago basing his business on tricks and advnetures fraud that legislation is providing , that he must provide his cach flow. But his cache flow is feeding the business which is full of tricks, making customers non-demanding, passive and unable to act for uplifting the quality. So the customers are forced ( violently ) to give up of own living needs so that someone elses cache flow is provided for continuing bad services, and tricking the customers . This bad for whole community not only for the victims. This way business is supported that give bad services, tricks, use legislation for own egoistic needs, unwilling to change and continue the culture or virus of greed and that greed can be established with tricks in contracts and then offering disaster form of services and bad products. Guess in schools of law and universities about law and legislation there should be more material for studying on community harmony, development issues, growth of values , mathematical theory of games, more mathematics and life sciences concepts. Because the mental genome of legislation now is to support the growth what might be in the seed disputable. So feeding the process of such degenerations is producing more and more chaos. But business and open market is not about the chaos and degenerations. It suppose to lift up values, healthy growth, give precedence to mental health, spiritual health, physical health and homeostasis in resource consumptions and access to resources for further added value and support regeneration cycles. Now cycles are ehxausting …and legislation is feeding processes to accelerate exhaustion instead to balance.
ask germans!
You have to find out why Greece has so much debt, then you re arrange the system accordingly to function economically, a whole new economical system is needed which would include compulsory recycling and the elimination of the reasons behind the debt starting with the biggest problems first, the reasons causing the debt, until this is worked out accurately I would disagree with bail outs and cancellation of debts because the same thing will happen again and again and again.
YES (Y) YES (Y) YES but in Greece HEALTH and EDUCATION have complex problems :( Lying, theft, prostitution, trafficking, murder :( the lack of money, the lack of drinking water, the lack of electricity, the lack of old original documents, and sale of every moral value, :( causing DESTRUCTION and DEATH of the INDIVIDUAL, SOCIETY and NATURE , and it must STOP here and now :(
Definitely,yes ,we are in europe as well as the germany
Yes since it is not real
No…
Yes … As it forgiving in Germany at 1953 AND GREECE SIGN FOR IT !!!!!!!
Yes!
The idea has been dropped. Forget it. Without deep reforms Greece would be in over its head again in 5 years.
For many years Europe knew about the bad economic situation in Greece.However they continued lending money to Greek governments in order to buy weapons from German,French and American Weapon Industries.They also allow Greece to get into the Eurozone although they knew about the false economic statistics.They allowed European companies such as Siemens to give money to Greek politicians in order to have them under control.They forced us to accept an institution as IMF to enter in Europe although they knew that it was an institution with bad results in any country it tried to help.These results were unemployment,poverty and instability.The same happened in Greece.Their only purpose was to save German and French Banks and so they lent us money claiming that it was for the recovery of the Greek economy.They forced Greece to take ineffective measures which increased the debt,unemployment and they make the 30% of Greek people poor!Although these institutions said that it was a bad recipe for Greek people they insist to force the new government with the blackmail of bankruptcy to continue the same policy with one purpose,to punish the Greek people.More than half a million people lost their jobs,more than 4500 people suicided,some children in schools are starving and freezing.Additionally the Greek debt was increased and nothing seems that the economic figures will become better!
About the issue of the German War Compensation,it is clear that Germans must compensate both the Greek State and the relatives of the victims for the disaster they left behind after the Second World War.However I believe that this is a different matter which the Greek government have to deal with that after the discussion about the Greek debt.But if the issue is if the Greek debt dshould be forgiven as German debt was in 1953, the answer is that it is unfair for the Greek victims to close this moral matter in such a way and to give forgiven to Greek politicians and the politicians and to the European institution’s failure to deal with that problem!
Πες τα βρε πατριωτη.Πες τα.Αφου αυτοι μας δανειζαν.Δεν ηξεραν οτι το χρεος αυξανεται.ΟΙ Ευρωπαιοι μας πιεζαν να μπουμε στο ευρο.
Delete the debt of all south EU countries and instead have the ‘golden boys’ of the Northern Banks pay them. Have an EU where each citizen has equal rights, benefits and oportunities regardless of where they live. Another option is to have a union without Germany. History shows that Germany cannot co-exist with its European neighbours. A union without the Germans can be the solution if everything else fails.
you have finally to think as Europe as a community, not as a colony of barbarian northern countries.. Eventually considering that mediterranean sea is as european as nordic countries.. so yes, greek debt should be forgiven.. especially now that they have a serious government.. keeping in mind that germany accepted to be fooled by samaras for ages!
I think 5 yrs is extremely optimistic Alec Mally. It would be closer to 3-4 months. Even with a 100% write off, the deficit would remain, Greece would still not be able to access financing at workable rates, and we would quite simply run out of cash. Capital flight would continue, and tax income would continue to decline. At this point, discussions on debt are completely irrelevant – we need to find a solution for the Greek state and economy to function efficiently and effectively. The hyper taxation-driven “austerity” model clearly doesn’t work – we need to find the right mix of public sector and regulatory reform, coupled with investments to enable economic growth.
No.
Yes, a common European fiscal policy should be developed, if we want to live in Europe as a nation
No!! The “Greeks” like to forget many things as long as it suits their interests but always remember the untrue!!
Yes, before makes agreements with China
NO…Merkel never forgiven …
End of Europe !!!!
Noooo!
Yes
No. They will make more debt and wait to be forgiven again. Other countries struggle to pay their depts. What makes Greeks so special?
Yeah right. Why should it be?
Yes, not only for Greece but also for all the countries of Europe. This is a depth between banks not between people.
nop, but germany could pay their debt. would make things a whole lot easier
definitely yes! the debt should be frgiven to help Greece stand again on its feet and perpetuate growth out of a period of prolonged and harmful recession!
People are so obtuse… The issue here is not Greek debt, but it is the precedence of forgetting debt when it comes to the Spanish, Portuguese and Italians, or any other state with mass amounts of debt. It’s far more serious if Spain wrote off its debt than if Greece did.
well…… things were different in 1953, dishonest governments have caused the current crisis plus the folks in Brussels should have studied these countries more closely before giving them the tick to become members in the first place – the Euro was an experiment that has gone horribly wrong…
FORGIVEN? Bad word choice.
By WHOM? How patronizing you Hawks!
Never
never
Yes, for crying out loud. It’s impossible to pay back, Greece, Portugal, perhaps even Ireland. Give these countries a fresh start and start coordinating fiscal policies in Brussels, it will happen again if we continue to think of the EU as 28 competing economies and not a huge ecnomic system competing against other players.
Yes
What a question! Did we ask the same question for France in 1929 or for Germany post WWII? Specially for Germany! That took the deposits of all occupied countries and obliged Greece to lose all her deposits of several billion USD. Not only the loan of Greece should be forgiven but the German loan should be also claimed back! Enough is enough with Greece being the lab of political change in Europe against austerity
Antnio Jorge Silva
I. Wish My. Debt. Was. Forgiven …. No..
Yes a ONE time deal only.
WHY not is the question ?? If its good for others, why is it not good for Greece ?? Keep in mind Germany not only had its debt forgiven, but had that debt forgiven after destorying Europe and killing millions of Europeans, Greece has never committed any crimes of any sort, yet its treated like some criminal state, sad to see just how many racist small minded morons there are out ther.
No
If things keep going the way they are going with Greece paying back monies owed there will be not problem because more people are dying, they can not afford the medication they need, far less babies being born, couples can not afford them. There will be no Greek population left to pay back the loan Germany will have killed a nation without a war
In my view, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Crete etc all need help as us Northern Europeans all helped to make them dependant on tourism. Germany should not bare this weight alone.
Crete is an Island in Greece .Not a country.
No, they can renegotiate their debt, take the hit on their credit ratings and learn to live within their means. Otherwise this will continue to repeat itself in the future.
Yes, Germain it is not exemple for nobody!
Yes. Overcrediting by banks in the last decades is a general problem destroying economy worldwide by now.
1953 Germany came out of WW2 , Greece from 2004-2011 had a “PARTY” with Primary Balance Sheet in Deficit 145 billion / 8 years (at a G.D.P of ~ 200 bn.)……..Do you compare-relate WW2 with “THE PARTY”??…..other’speople money also!!!…..xaxaxaxa. No way. Find the loan money!!!…….
We all know what happened when europe didn’t forgive the dept created during the WWI to the Germans.
Why Should We? We Want What Is Ours By Right !!!! If I get a loan and do not pay The Bank Takes what`s His In No Time At All !!
German debt was not forgiven because of people getting in pension at 50 or rich people to buy Porsche instead of paying taxes…
Yes
Forgiven of what?I do not remeber Greece starting a war.
No
If you do, give that much money to Bulgarians, the true descendents of Europe s oldest race and culture. We want to live well, like the Greeks, too!
“The true descendents of Europe s oldest race and culture”: are you joking? LOL
True descendant of Europe. I think you listened to this for too long and it’s doing you harm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fn36l_z3WY
Greece has always played with Muscovy and Moscow is dangerous
no
From a moral perspective, it would be best to forgive the Greek debts. But the problem is that this is not really about morals, despite all the political posturing. It is a fallacy to portray this issue as the ‘small guy’ against the ‘rich banks’, as the latter is an aggregate of many ‘small guys’ elsewhere in Europe whose savings are now tied up with the Greek debt.
Greece has not been well served by its politicians over the past decades and the ingrained irresponsible behaviour is still there. Even today’s Tsipras government is seeking populistic ‘quick fixes’ of questionable morality, e.g. wasting time flirting with Putin, or raising the unrelated topic of war reparations (70 years after the war? How cynical…) rather than working with potential partners to really find a creative and viable ‘growth-focused’ solution that could catapult Greece out of the current mess.
Debt forgiveness in some shape could be part of such a solution. But on its own, without a different way of behaving, it is useless.
Where are the Greek nation-building politicians who can inspire the trust of both the Greeks themselves and Greece’s European partners to allow really creative solutions to be found?
It’s too easy to assume the indignant role of the victim and blame Germany, the Troika, the Euro, capitalism, etc. If that’s all the current crop of Greek politicians have on offer, it is a real tragedy for the country and its suffering population.
Why did they ask for the last part of loan already then claiming that they will not repay? And why should we, Latvians, have repaid the loan just to see now that it is possible to be a freerider and to get by with this?
Greek debt should be forgiven as Germany’s damages towards Greece or worse towards the HUMANITY during World War II, were too severe and they were forgiven!
First,to be examined.private banks deficit,public insurance money gone to stockmarket crisis,submarines payed but not delivered(2 not delivered and one is overheating)olymbic games money,all of these have to be examined.second,debt payback has to be in a way that is not ruining the economy.and last we must see the interest rates.if they are legal(and moral)or not.
No
Yes!
Hell Yes !
No way
Yes!
No! Greece brought all this onto itself. The citizens should find who was responsible for lack of seriousness in steering the country on the right track and put them in jail.
Of course not! The incentives structure would be horrible!!!
Toxic analogy…
Hell yeah!
The Greek debt was not made by the Greek people, was made by politicians and big banks, and now they’re sending the Bill to pay to the wrong people, like in other countries..
How do you collect from one who does not pay? This question is out of place. Greece won’t pay their debt, no matter what EU decides. The real question is who’s going to take the loss of their bad debts.
All debt worldwide should be forgiven. Poverty is created by the avarice of a few.
Yes. The humanitarian and sanitary crisis is huge. The extermination of a nation by banks is happening. The Greek debt was made by big international banks, so banks should pay and not citizens. The loss should affect banks who caused it and their “appetite”.
siamo un unione di Stati e dobbiamo aiutarci a vicenda se n che Europa ?
No!
..yes!
If Greece will get special treatment then every third world country that’s part of the European Union should also get it. Or are the Greeks that special?
It should be counter-calculated to the debts of Germany to Greece.
any national debt should be erased in EU and money creation should belong to ECB only, not to private banks .
So war is the same as bad fiscal/economic policy. If that is true, then sure go ahead and forgive greek debt otherwise I guess it’s pretty obvious.
Also I never seen anyone against ‘Greek people’ in fact , at least from what I have seen, most EU citizens want everyone to be well, however it comes down to
how can the EU forgive it’s bad boy without breaking the rules it set out of the rest of the world and when do the greeks understand that we need to be fair above all.
They should pay back money borrowed and apologise for killing Socrates
off course
bvio. nem era necessrio perguntarem.
os alemes comearam a guerra e no final foram os mais beneficiados! ridculo.
if I borrow money from others, will they erase my debt just because I am not able to pay?
Yes it fucking should ! Or the european utopy only works one way ?!
Yes 100% + interest
Shared
Germany should start following their own rule: pay the debt
It should be forgiven, the German one was forgiven, they seem to have forgotten.
Yes!
You can’t sell any milk of you slaughter your cow.
If the German led EU coalition is over-charging for debts owed by Greece and the other European countries should they not take a leaf out of their own view of “Bonus Payments” and get the interest down to a manageable percentage. Also to use the Marshall Plan figures they should not be paying more than 3% of GDP.
The solution (in 1953) for Germany was that they should only pay for debts out of its trade surplus, and any repayments were limited to 3% of exports earnings every year. This meant those countries that were owed debt had to buy West German exports in order to be paid. It meant West Germany would only pay from genuine earnings, without recourse to new loans. And it meant Germany’s creditors had an interest in the country growing and its economy thriving. Why isn’t this being seen as a major clause in the current negotiations?
In contrast to the 3% limit on German debt payments, today the IMF and World Bank regard debt payments of up to 15-25% of export revenues as being “sustainable” for impoverished countries. The Greek government’s foreign debt payments are around 30% of exports.
Do we need a pro-Soviet country just across the water from Turkey and close to Cyprus who have now allowed Russia to make use of their ports. No, But if we do not sort out the Greek debt soon it will come. Possibly soon after Italy will experience additional problems with its close borders to unstable parts of North Africa. This is not rumour-mongering or any form of fear spreading but a reminder of what Poverty and deprivation can cause. Look at Germany in 1934 who still owed debt from 1918. Greece has not started a war in modern times, and is unlikely to do so now, but her new allies might think differently.
Ultimately the Greek Spanish Italian Portuguese debts should be written off as bad debts and allow all to return to to respecteely Drachma Peseta Lira and Escudo or remain with the Euro as the people of the individual sovereign states wish enabling the countries to re establish theirselves and economies with the option that when they can actually genuinely afford to pay some back to sovereign state prerogative with the carrot of improved credit ratings on attempting to do so.
The two alternatives as I see it are force ever more difficult humiliating austerity on them forcing defaults on the loans breaking the economies ultimately the Titanic effect will sink the European zone!
Alternatively Sovereign States be allowed to print Euro’s as they need to remain Peaceful lawful and ordered and to enable in people’s pockets spending money to regenerate business the “feel good factor” and bonafide prosperity through the States
A relatively minor ‘debt-management’ issue threatens to destabilize the West! Because the West is riddled with factions that actively engage, contribute massively towards erosion of Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage, the fabric from which the West wove it’s cloth, the glue that binds Western democratic adherence towards common civilizational principles first developed in ancient Athens and Rome. Allow that to proceed, I mean, erode the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. Erode cultural-heritage. Erode Western civil societies common understandings of shared common heritage – now sit back and watch the Western worlds cultural-foundations crumble.
Western culture, Western civilization – What does it mean to You!
For the first time ever in the history of the West…Greece is being outcast as being somewhat different, being Maverick, following different path, from path laid down by Euro-Atlantic economic structures of the USA, EU and NATO, collectively known as the ‘West’. Greek (economic) interests diverge from Western ones! Greece cannot develop, progress or go forward in Western fold, on Merkel-Schaubles Austerity diktats which have impoverished the Hellenic Nation and ruined the Greek economy.
The cradle of Western Civilization is moving East whilst some Eastern-European countries that were once under (CCCP) USSR domination are moving West.
The West lost it’s way long time ago! The catalyst that binds Western Nations together, to common civilizational (democratic) principles…ideals and core values first developed in ancient Athens and Rome, eroded, their value, their meaning, diminished.
The West has become dog eat dog place, no longer a place for ‘like-minded’ peoples but a place where fractious groupings engage actively in infighting, and economic warfare against own kind. Proof is the total destruction of Hellenic Republics National economy – Western-Style!
Nope.