In his first act as Prime Minister of Greece, Alexis Tsipras laid a wreath at a memorial to Greek victims of the Nazis. It was a symbolically charged gesture, and was widely interpreted as a reminder of the historical debts owed to Greece by Germany. In Germany, however, it was seen as yet another anti-German provocation from a country being kept afloat financially, to a significant extent, by bailout loans from German taxpayers.
Yet debt forgiveness has an established historical precedent in Europe. Poland, for example, had accrued external debts of about 57% of GDP by the time the Communist system had collapsed, with the majority of that debt (around $33 billion) being owed to Western governments.
Poland’s largest creditor at the time was Germany, which reluctantly agreed in 1991 (under pressure from the United States) to go along with the “Paris Club” of creditor nations and forgive half of Poland’s debt to the West (though this was less than the 80% write-off Poland had originally been seeking).
An even more dramatic example is provided by Germany itself. Historically, Germany has been described as the biggest “debt transgressor” of the 20th Century, with restructurings in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953. Total debt forgiveness for Germany between 1947 and 1953 amounted to somewhere in the region of 280% of GDP, according to economic historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics. Today, Greece has an external debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 175% (by comparison, Germany’s external debts currently stand at about 145% of GDP).
Critics say that this argument amounts to cheap populism. Greece lied about its debts, and the economy was mired in corruption, bureaucracy, tax evasion and generous social perks afforded to Greek citizens. In other words, critics believe Greece does not “deserve” debt forgiveness.
Even worse, forgiving Greek debt could amount to a “moral hazard”, spurring on populist left wing parties in other Eurozone countries such as Spain and Portugal, and encouraging them to ask for a similar package.
The Greek government admits that Greek politicians behaved badly in the past, but it argues that so did German, French and American banks (and Greek oligarchs, who hid much of their wealth abroad). In addition, only a small amount (less than 10%) of the bailout money loaned to Greece has gone on public spending, with the vast majority spent on debt repayment.
Should Greek debt be forgiven as German debt was in 1953? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!
2,295 comments Post a commentcomment
Sure but then what? The real issue isn’t the debt per se. What has created this debt? The deficit of the Greek state.
And it isn’t a greek problem. It is an european problem. The Greek state is just a symbol of what’s wrong with the current european model.
Deficit? What deficit? The Greek state runs budgets with primary surplus for the last 5 years; that has caused a heavy depression, dumping us to chaos. The current EU model is wrong because it forces democratic states to depriving their citizens of basic Human Rights in order to rescue the banks (mainly German and French ones); now, it is critical for the EU bureaucracy to respect DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENTS in their effort to abide by their DEMOCRATIC mandate that is not so convinient with the totallitarian attitude in Brussels.
Dear George,
Is it true Greek men can retire at the age of 50? Here in the US the retirement age is 66 and it should go up. If I lived in Germany I would not want to pay taxes to subsidize those Greeks retiring too early. I am a German American. Epharisto poli.
Dear Bernie,
no, greek men don’t retire at the age of 50, but at 65 (before 2010 it was at 57 i think). There are only cases that some can retire earlier than the age of 65, like mothers of under-aged children that have worked a specific amount of hours in their lives.
@Bernie Zehr Do you realize now how misunderstood is the situation in Greece by some of you? You think that we retire at 50 and we party every day, and all we want is free money from EU?? NO, Try to find out which country is the most hardworking in Europe, you will be surprised.
No, it is NOT a European problem, it is a problem for the entire world, and no, it is NOT typical for the European countries since it is only a hand full in the southern parts that have the economic problems compareable to the ones Greece has, the rest of Europe are fine (or very close) and the further north you get the better the economic you get. Just look at Sweden, probably the country in the world that handled the -08 crisis the best with practically 0 loss of BNP and as far as I know the Swedes are still Europeans, AND a part of the EU.
But to be fair; the people gets the leadership they deserve in a democracy, so if the politicians in Greece, backed by its own population, makes stupid choices that takes the entire nation close to bankrupcy, I have to think the people of Greece have them selves to blame, and they should also have to pay the price. Why should people in the northern parts of Europe pay for the dumb choices in Greece? It’s horrific the Greek government doesn’t want to pay the money they loaned from other countries.
Memememem ,stop please with the retoric of the northen country,40 of the 160 billion are due to Italy…
It’s not true that Greece ran a primary surplus in the last five years. http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1551-greek-choices-after-the-elections/
Danny, nothing is due to Italy, or any other european country, the loans weren’t exactly habnding over cash, they were guarantees. the only way it will cost money is if greece defaults. The creditors are making interest on the so callled loans by the way…
http://meedia.de/2015/03/31/hundertausende-klicks-anstalt-clip-ueber-griechenland-wird-zum-viral-hit/
Let the germans explain it better (die Anstalt). Unfortunately i found it only in greek subs, the ones in english have been removed. If someone finds it post it…
.
At last we have a question that is properly formulated.
No, they should declare bankruptcy while still in the Eurozone & let the other 18 countries pay for their debt.
here’s a live feed of people ‘celebrating’ the opening of the ECB headquarters,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7gfyZ5we3w
There is a better solution:
Let’s make Germany pay what owes to Greece in accordance to the 1953 Agreement (regarding WW II Reparations amounting to 7.1bnUSD + interset) as well as to the Decisions of Hellenic and Italian Courts of Justice regarding WW II victims’ Compensation (Distomo 1944, pilot-case); besides, let’s Germany pay back the Occupation Loans (extracted from the Bank of Greece in 1942-3 by the 3rd Reich amounting to 11bn USD). All of them sum up to more than 200bn USD in current prices leaving Greece with a net debt of 72bn Euros (60% of its current GDP) that is by all means viable, taking into account the primary surplus of its current budget.
So simple. Nobody hurts – everybody honnors his obligations! (not only “lazy pigs”- Greece but also the ones who triggered two WW catastrophies)
Saying that today’s German government founded on completely different principles compared to the Nazi run government during the WW2 should pay for 70-year-old reparations is absurd. You cannot just call for debts made at that time for multiple reasons, one of which is that precise debt calculations over so much time are practically impossible. We’re talking about inflation, interest rate changes and most of all the fact that the currency was later switched to Euro. You literally cannot make a meaningful calculation of that debt.
Also, even if Germany did pay out the “debt”, what would be the end result? No reform. Greece would just spend the money it would have received the same way it always has- too much public spending, imaginary jobs, early retirement etc. Greek people and their government need to finally learn how to behave responsibly within the system they joined and agreed to. And let’s not forget why it was allowed to join the EU in the first place.
@Matej Strelar
The nazis had implemented the doctrine of collective responsibility thus executing e.g. 453 villagers in Viannos region, Crete (14-17/9/1843). The German government imposed via the Troica “bailout agreements” a kind of collective private/citizens responsibility regarding state debt. We have de facto been deprived of our right to private property due to overtaxation and the threat to steal our deposits on the Cypriot model (ECB guarantee is nonsense).
Can’t oyu see analogies?
Greece isnt a state. Its a a country. Its a nation. As German ,Italy etc.
@George Yiannitsiotis
It is shameful to relate Greece’s current debt issues to Nazi forced war-reparations, murder, pillaging and atrocities. You cannot possibly suggest that Greece would want its self-inflicted bad-books situation be alleviated by reparations (in the form of capital) for the spilled blood and pain of its ancestors. Please enlighten me as to how you can make such a suggestion and how you believe this is “the better solution”. To spell it out for you: Self-inflicted, reckless hoarding of debt, falsifying records, all made well again by calling in a favour you think is owed due to war & mass murder brought about by a heartless, genocidal regime that caused the death of tens of millions of people, including its own.
Germany has a legal obligation to pay what it owes Greece, not to mention to return the archaeological treasures it stole during WWII. Also Even though IMF is strongly pushing for a deb reduction, not because they are nice guys, but because they know the debt is unsustainable and can’t be paid, so only with a debt reduction will they get their profits. The loan in 2010 is illegal. The official debt audit of the Greek parliament, executed by European treaty mandate, provides documented proof that many mechanism illegal in nature were used to save german and french private banks and to cover up the fact that the loan was unsustainable. The conditionalities of the loan are in severe breach of international laws, european treaty, and human rights. The above facts, and more, give Greece the right, and according to international laws the obligation, to stop payment of the loan. however, we saw the Eu’s totalitarian reaction to basic democratic rights of a referendum when the ECB illegal stopped recapitalising the private greek banks. one can only imagine the “punishment” that would be imposed upon Greece were it to execute its rights and thereby not only shame the EU but cause them a lot of economic pain…how would they explain to their taxpayers when the truth comes out?
http://meedia.de/2015/03/31/hundertausende-klicks-anstalt-clip-ueber-griechenland-wird-zum-viral-hit/
Let the germans explain it better (die Anstalt). Unfortunately i found it only in greek subs, the ones in english have been removed. If someone finds it post it…
What we, as citizens of this country want, is first of all is the audit of this notorious debt. How on earth we managed to reach this monsterous amount of debt. Was it really because some were not paying taxes ? The “theory” that all Greeks don;t pay taxes is absolutely ridiculous since the majority of the citizens cannot hide income , even more today when there is no income to hide. So lets see what this audit has to say first of all. http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_17/03/2015_548311
agree entirely the banks caused the problem the banks should solve it.
Banks?
stop acting as if the banks are the root of all evil.
You, the GREEK PEOPLE, don’t want to work as long as the rest of Europe, I mean, retirement at 53? In Sweden they try to force people to work to 73 !!! that’s a whole 20 years difference!!! And you sit here, EXPECTING the Swedish people to pay for YOUR retirements? for YOUR corruption?
I don’t think so.
Pay up what you owe us, then we can talk about a new loan
Let’s set somethings straight about life in greece past & present. Greek people don’t retire at 50 we (for now) retire at 65. There were exceptions for army,police,firemen,fighter pilots & some amount of mothers with underaged children.My father retired on1999 at 69 yrs having worked as a driver for over 40 yrs.His pension is 490euros/month…. Did you mention taxes? Before 2010 my income was 18000 FIXED tax was 680, had to pay FIXED vat 1200 WITHOUT collecting any.Same job last year’s income 8000 vat 1600 and the tax was 3000…still trying to pay it:(.BTW for pension and medical care have to pay 4200 annually.To sum up me+wife+2children income;24000-3000-1600-9000(house loan)-2400(electricity bills)=9000 to pay food,kids doctors, teiephones,clothing,petrol,car running costs,kindergarden,heat…etc. NO entertaiment,NO travels,NO holidays……Live your myth in Greece:( !
BECAUSE DEBTS ARE TO BE PAYED AERN’T THEY? AND NOT PAYING THEM SETTLES A TERRIBLE EXAMPLE TO OTHERS. I had a different opinion on debt crisis before knowing that others didn’t pay either. And a lot of maoney.
You are all leaving out these facts: deficit spending is severely limited, yet Goldman Sachs & Bear Stearns sold the previous Greek regimes on it. The banks who collaborated ALL knew it was illegal. If Greece had been allowed to keep its economy growing, its foreign debt ratio would be similar to Germany and France, etc…As Greeks say, you cannot foreclose on the sunshine!
http://meedia.de/2015/03/31/hundertausende-klicks-anstalt-clip-ueber-griechenland-wird-zum-viral-hit/
Let the germans explain it better (die Anstalt). Unfortunately i found it only in greek subs, the ones in english have been removed. If someone finds it post it…
Yes, it would be fair
As simple as a total denial of the public debt by all states!
Do you know how many trillions of dollars is thw public debt of the whole humanity? To whom? To people from Mars?
Memememem you really think that we retire at 53? Do some reasercht and stop taking as fact something that your media want you to believe.Greeks retire at the age of 65,with only a few exceptions. SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH,DONT BELIEVE THE BULLSHIT THEY TELL YOU.
I was talking to Thomas.
http://meedia.de/2015/03/31/hundertausende-klicks-anstalt-clip-ueber-griechenland-wird-zum-viral-hit/
Let the germans explain it better (die Anstalt). Unfortunately i found it only in greek subs, the ones in english have been removed. If someone finds it post it…
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
with english subs
And why not , France , Italy , Spain , Portugal ,….and …..and …. Haiti ?
Yes, why not?
Exactly how
The threat of a Greek exit every so often must stop. Everyone knows that this debt is not viable but all sides are so entrenched in their positions that we seem to have fallen back on the debate about the hen and the egg. A total agreement must come to fruition to solve the problem once and for all,allowing the Greek economy to plan it’s way into the future.
Are the politicians on all sides up to the task
I agree with Oli. While as out courtesy to what the Greeks agreed to do back then for the Germans, some lenience should be shown to Greece and allow some debt forgiveness as well as investments start pouring into the country, just like they did in Germany from foreign creditors (aka Marshall plan and others ) that is not the permanent solution. The more the Greeks and the periphery remain poorer, corruption will never be eradicated. Corruption is not a national trait, it is a sign of a broken system, of poverty and lack of education, as well as the inability of the state to function. Greece and many other states had a very turbulent past, that created a mentality of survival and selfishness, meaning that the locals grew up in absolute poverty and had to learn how to survive by any means. Now that post war generation who is still holding the reigns of the country, knows only one way on how to do business. Europeans in their arrogance and ignorance, believe that this will be eradicated by more austerity thus more poverty. What they are doing though is pushing one more generation of Greeks and others out of education and into extreme poverty, and as result corruption will never leave the mentality of that nation!! The solution? Reforms, education, investment, debt forgiveness (partial or full) and a stable economy so that Greece and other countries can become like the rest of Europe. But is this in the interests of the European elites, or do they need “peripheral” states to do the dirty work, aka being exploited and bullied when things go bad??
the above message is decribing fully the situation in Greece. Unfortunattly Europe doesnt see the forest, but the tree. This is a war, an economic war and people in Greece, people that never cheated, pay the very heavy prize. The one of not having the same rights as all the citinzens of E.U. have!
So… basically you say you the Greek people should spend it all… then sit back and let the rest of us pay for the things you can’t pay for by your self?
sounds LEGIT
by the way, the loans are way better than any loan I could ever possible manage to get with very low taxes and rates so I don’t understand what you are crying about..
If you had to take a BIG loan it’s because you can’t handle your money well, it’s NOT the fault of the people actually being nice LENDING you the money that has done wrong, but YOU who can’t handle it properly
In countries like Greece, a problem is that the people who suffer and the people who operate the state mechanism, i.e. crony bureaucrats. If you don’t bail out ordinary people will suffer and they question the users of the system, their miscalculations, bad statistics, inequalities, etc. But at the same time injocent people will continue to suffer. If you bail out, ordinay people feel the solidarity of the Europe, their human rights will be at least partially protected, but the system users will find not much incentive to give up the bureaucratic business as usual. In Turkey, it is exactly the same.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Let the germans explain it better
I,throughly agree with your appraisal,well written.
If it does it with frica, why not?
Actually, Mr or Ms Memememem, the truth is somewhere between:
1) We all know that if Europe wanted to help us,they would even without any interest rate
2)The above Greeks are right about the subject of what Germany owes to Greece since World War II.It is not yet relative,with what we owe nowadays.
3)Every Greek person pays its taxes.
4) Every Greek person takes retirement at 65 except specific cases.
5)If you know economics,something I think you should learn if you don’t know yet,banks were always behind all these loans.
6)In 2001 when we got Euro,nobody asked the people like nowadays.
7)Also,Europe has accepted us as an equal member.Europe(a big organisation) that I think shouldn’t make such a terrific mistake.
8)Has anyone helped you taking interest from you ?I don’t think this is the proper way to help someone.It concerns me something else.Maybe Europe has accepted because there wasn’t anything to lose but only win.
9)A union should work as a union.My thoughts are that since Europe is a body,all nations from which it consists should help paying together with the nation that has the crisis.Why?Because a body works together.Maybe this happens in 200 years.Maybe..
10)In the end nobody ever was asked in Greece like nowadays if we wanted to take a loan.This happened for the Eurozone.Everyone knows that if we had left 5 years ago,we would be a lot better right now.
11)We love Europe but let’s set everything in the proper basis
12)We are responsible as Greek citizens of Europe.We never asked all these crisis and now we pay about this.Who? the Greek citizens.Who is having it’s money outside in foreign countries? the various politicians that had governed all this time.Who is outside the prisons?Them
That’s why we will vote No.Because we will haunt them until they pay what they owe
If they did it with Germany, why not with Greece?
@memememem, this is A UNION…European union…and it is currently heading to aunion of NO sovereign countries….The EU parliament decisions overrun the any national parliament decisions…
So does the USA….in such a union surplus from any state cover up the dedicit of any other state regardless the reason…..so please understand that this is like the oceans on planet earth…INTERCONNECTED
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Let the germans explain it better
well if we cleared the debt of a country that is solely responsible for the death of millions via 2 world wars andt was killing people like cattle in concentration camps then shouldnt we clear the debt of the country that gave the world democracy, freedom, sciences, art, literature and philosophy?
Germany created the monster now they have to deal with it.
It’s not just sucking from then and limit their production like they did in the past. At least someone is telling them to piss of.
Germany is not the same country anymore, is it? And neither is Greece the same country that ‘gave the world democracy’. The debt in question is not a debt of a people, we are talking about the debt of a state caused by the almost traditional corruption and nepotism employed by its consecutive administrations.
Germany readied funds to bail out Greece and save its people from subsequent bankruptcy by appealing to its own populace to buy bonds for this purpose. We are talking about incredible amounts here. No country can pay such amounts in full and at once and nobody will buy such risky bonds if they don’t have a fat interest rate attached to them. Nevertheless the interest on those bonds is 3x less than the interest banks have pushed onto Greece in the years before.
So if you are going to crucify an institution for choking an entire people to poverty I suggest you start with such banks. I am not even going to mention the EU safety umbrella here which only exists because of Greece in the first place.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Let the germans explain it better
Dont compare the two situations! where is the money that was put in Greece? what have they changed?
Sadly around 90% of it has gone to support the banks or pay the interests of the loans. So nothing has really changed, everything is getting worse. We’ve seen some progress int he corruption-section though, still not for the very rich population, but it’s something. I hope we continue towards this road, but while not forgetting that we are humans and not numbers. I want a decent euducational and health system, something that the last years is a disgrace. But let’s hope. Perhaps the new government will do something about that.
Do compare the two situations !
If you know greek or german let the Germans explain it better. Sorry all the posts with english subtitles have been removed. If someone finds it, post it.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Found it in english
It’s matter of Germany and Greece the debt to be forgiven and Germans to pay for it as Greeks did it to Germans no need for rest Europeans to pay for it. Germany to pay even if they loose money other wise I want my country out of European union with our own currency and no hate between our countries lets just walk alone and continue all happy.
your buddy lend you $10
he says it’s fine and doesn’t want it back because it’s small potatoes.
Fine, I get that
but compared, what YOU Greeks owe is way way way way more than what the Germans owed, AND, with the difference that the Germans owed for their war crimes, while you people owe it for retiring way way too early (nearly 20 years difference between the avarage greek and the average Swede when you look at how long they work until retirement) and for your country being corrupt as ******
really not comparable by any means
As the saying goes…Leave if you will, leave at your peril
Your actions are disgusting, you take the money, promise to pay it back, change your mind then bring up a debt from 50 years ago to try get out of it.
If it was me, I would hang up on you every time you called for a loan
Memememem, all your comments show simplemindedness, simple understanding of highly complex situations. I will give you the facts as simply as possible so you can stop spouting your inane claims that you are paying anything for the Greek people. In 2007-08 after the collapse of Lehman Bros. the world economy pretty much collapsed. German and French banks were highly exposed to Greek bonds..keep in mind that bonds are an investment, a gamble, not a loan. As a result of this economic collapse Greece was not able to pay the German and French banks…they gambled in high risk investment..i.e they got 7% on greek bonds, instead of safer bonds with 1 or 2% returns, and they lost. The shareholders of these banks would have lost a lot of money and would have to recapitalise the banks. Merkel and Sarkozie could not allow their private banks to collapse. So the plan was, loan 240 billion to Greece to cover the bonds, but how could Merkel and sarkozie tell their tax payers that they were making private losses public??? they didnt dare, so they started the whole poor greece, we have to save Greece. save Greece indeed, borrowing money at 0% and loaning it at 5%. And actually it isnt money, the loans are more like guarantees, they do not cost the tax payers anything, unless Greece defaults! of the 240 billion euros over 90% went to German and french private banks, and less than 10% to Greece. At the time, IMF and EU knew that 240 bill. was too much, that this loan was not sustainable, it could NEVER be paid back, but they covered this up because in essence to loan a country money that they cannot pay back is ILLEGAL. They doctored projected statistics to make it seem Greece could pay, but as everyone now knows those projections were so unrealistic and were not even close to the truth. In the mean time, the conditionalities of the loan were austerity measures…in greece these were 40% cuts in wages, the same in pensions, 30% of pensioners are below poverty level, a drop in GDP..these recessionary measures caused a depression in Greece that is comparable to the great depression of 1930s. which makes it even more impossible to pay the loan. I could give you many more factual details of the devestation of the greek economy due to austerity but i wont. Germany has made over 800 billion euros profit from interest in the last years from Greece, the IMF over 3 billion. It has not cost any european tax payers anything, except for the Greeks who have lost their homes, their livelihoods and even their lives. As far as the German debt, Germany is known as the biggest deafulter of loans in the last century, they defaulted on loans 4 times in the last 90 years. who paid for all of that? moreover, many uropean countries received war time reparations, only greece hasnt received them. also Germany extracted a loan from Greece in 1943, it isnt that long ago as many WWII survivors will now tell you. Germany has a legal obligation to pay what it owes to Greece. THe only reason they havent is, aside from dancing around saying things like, oh we will pay when east and west germany is united again, and when that happened other excuses, the main reason is, after WWII, our allies started a civil war, they put the right wing Nazi collaborators in power again and fought against the left wing LIBERATORS calling them communists etc. And so after the war we had nazi collaborators in power and many of their decendants are still governing this country and are the oligarchs who vbenefit, so of course they did germany the favour and turned a blind eye to the refusal to pay. Finally, as far as tax evasion and corruption goes, it is these descendants of nazi collaborators , the oligarchy that is at fault, and multinational corporations, German mostly, like siemeans, hochtief who are bribing and getting huge contracts, who are not paying taxes, for example most recently Hochtief has finally and legally been shown to not have paid 600 million euro in taxes to greece. and one last thing, your comfortable lifestyle up north is thanks to EU’s deindustrialisation of many countries to benefit the big exporters, namely Germany, who have made a fortune by pumping money into greece and other small countries to stimulate consumption of mainly German imports. so please get a brain, learn the facts, and stop whining about who is paying whose pensions and lifestyle.
To the swede guy/girl: you are absolutely wrong, this is not how the debt was created whatsoever. yes greece has taken more loans than they should and there were mistakes, but this is not the beggining of the crisis. The failure of the banking system is, and euro tax payers have paid for it-greek citizens have paid for it in money, unemployment, deprivation of health care and degrade of our education. And it is not true that people retired at 50, who told you that?? it is 65, get your facts straight. The age comes down for specific jobs that are considered detrimental to health and for some army officers (and I sure hope it increases for the latter group). And since you come from sweden, why don;t you start your criticism by requesting your own country why you have not adopted euro even though you have signed to be part of the eurozone. Unless you didn;t know :) and then, maybe you can start with your questioning on greek morality.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Not true , even the germans admit it finally
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Memememem Not true , even the germans admit it finally
No
Why? Give your reasons like everyone else.
Costa
why should I pay for YOUR wrongdoings? Why should people in MY country pay for YOUR countrys inability to handle money properly? Why should WE pay for YOUR corruption? Why in the name of the lord should anyone else than YOU pay for YOUR OWN MISTAKES???
If you buy more than you can pay for, you kinda deserve going bankrupt
@mememme
i fell really badly when i hear other Europeans saying “why should i pay”. nobody is forcing you or any other European citizen to pay! it’s a bank problem! greek crisis didn’t cost anything to other eu citizens and it won’t cost! only greeks are pau8more and more without anu results
@Memememem
why why why? because the pig banks in YOUR country are the ones who profit from the suffering of the Greek people. Disgusting!
Memememem, I gave you a fairly detailed answer above, here i will just remind you the this so called new bailout, of 85 billion dollars will not go to Greece, it will go directly to paying interest on the loan, not the loan itself…so it is paying the creditors PROFIT, and the rest will go to recapitalise the bankrupt private banks! You are not paying for any Greek pensions or lifestyles, in fact greek pensioners have lost approximately 40% of their pensions so your country can earn a profit, so your country’s private banks do not lose a penny, so they can keep their million euro salaries and their multi million euro bonuses!
Dimitar I have many Bulgarian friends and everyone tells me the same they believe that we are lazy cause we don’t work on Sundays etc but we have exact the same with Bulgaria we work 40 hrs per week it doesn’t change on what day we work you work on Sunday we don’t we both work Five days per week.bulg and gre work the most hrs ij European Union and while we should soppyrt each other while we are their slaves we have low sallerys we are neigbours and with common religion we become motherfuckers why?
i have a feeling if yes, than Greece’s oligarchs wins what means that the corrupt system not going to change so it would happen again and again.And if the oligarchy wins it would win all over europe.In the same time i think the eu. should do more friendlyer conditions of paying it back.But the German exemple is’t cool, cause Germany was bombed to ashes so they needed to rebuild the country literaly after the war.In Greece, there was no war just some people atually stoled to much money….ye by the way, why this people, i mean the maffia don’t help their own country by helping to pay the money?Why they are living tho most luxurious life when the most of the people suffering because of them?And yes i repeat, the eu should make more friendly conditions of paying it back.
The rich dont care, it’s as simple as that. They are the people that created this in the first place- yes some people didnt pay all of their taxes and lied, but this percentage can hardly cause such a crisis.The tax-evading lazy stereotype is just a stereotype. Now the rich have their money in Switzerland and the rest suffer for their selfish behavior.
Omg – read your history before commenting on a situation that you obviously have no knowledge about! Greece detained the German invasion actually in Crete by a week which detained their take over of Greece & eventually cost them the war as by the time they reached Russia it was winter!! Hello one of the main reasons Germany lost the war! Apart from that the atrocities they visited on the Greek people simply for their resistance was abominable! Apart from that they decimated the country from food – for the German army leaving Greeks to starve- they ‘borrowed’ money from the Greek banks which has never been returned – and yet you ask why the Germans should forgive the Greeks their debt? The Greeks are actually some of the most highly educated people I have met in spite of a state education system which is based on repetition- the vast majority of Greeks pay for some form of private education- so is the corruption in the Greek government to blame? Yes of course – they were going the way of many 3rd world countries before they joined the EU but the people are a little wiser now and mostly understand the way the country should be run but a lot have been disillusioned by the leftist government – unfortunately it should not be run by a socialist government who only want to please lazy people & put the civil service back to the disgrace it was before – what is the solution? Release Greece from these debts which in fact they have repaid and it is now only the interest on loans that they are obliged to repay – but do not allow this government to take responsibility as they have done nothing but create uncertainty in all Greek markets!
Very good arguments
Because only Germany was bombed right?
The Balkan countries are ripe with corruption – and as a result they either suffer a miserable standard of life or high unsustainable debt or often both – why should the German or the UK taxpayer be paying for the unwillingness of people to make a bit of an effort and change their countries – ABSOLUTELY NO
Because they are the bigest corruptors in the world!
did you know SIEMENS,TELEKOM,FEROSTAHL,HOCH/TIEF
thats why
AOh come on ! Germany does not have a bad memory. You cannot keep in blaming the Nazis for everything. Move on. Greece lied, simple so NO
Corrupted by who?
Sir, there was a case of bribes paid to Greeks by German companies.
I think, specifically the company in question was Siemens.
In the U.S the law prohibits bribery. Same for the UK.
I fear, Europe’s different. Greeks are not the exception. Simply part of the norm.
At any rate, the shame is that we now belong to a club same as Germany.
Who wants to be thought of same as Germany. But times are achanging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMwZsFKIXa8
The two scenarios can’t be compared
I think yes sir
Oh so time will hide the sins of some but not of others . . . By the way, great reason to forgat about little details: it was long ago.
I only will say: Germany has a bad memory and should have a bad conscience.
Germany has the best memory of any country in this day and age. The only country where you are taught – in detail – european history in school, with a particular emphasis on the years ’14 -’45. Again and again and again. One of very few countries who seek to solve conflict without the use of armed action in our day. In fact one is taught so well that people are perfectly aware that there is a dark history but that the country itself is not the same. It is the total opposite of the 3rd Reich in terms of policy, tolerance and equality etc etc. In the end what you are saying is that a 10 year old german citizen should have a bad conscience about what someone may have done 70-80 years before, more than 2 generations ago. So, with all due respect, if your sentence is really the only thing you can say then perhaps don’t say it. The past is the past and the future belongs to the young. It is important to teach the young the dealings of the past but not to burden them with the irreparable sin of their forefathers.
Of course it should be forgiven!
The eurozone was modelled on the German Bundesbank.
That model was faulty and stupidly did not include practical risk monitoring.
Whether by omission (neglecting to evaluate risk) or commission (putting all eggs in one basket), all eurozone members are responsible for this mess.
Ireland’s 15 years in the eurozone have been a period of massive economic instability – 7 years unsustainable boom, 1 year economic freefall, 7 more years of recession, unemployment, emigration, service cutbacks, all to please the German export model.
Germany was the worst debt defaulter of the 20th century.
The London Agreement of 1953 was scheduled for re-examination in 2012, but Germany conveniently neutralised debate.
On top of that, Germany among others has undermined democracy (installing technocrats in preference to elected leaders), has undermined capitalism (socialising private Sparkassen debt), has undermined economies (interest rates set counter-intuitive to the best interests of peripheral countries), has undermined equality (the EU Commission prioritises German interests above all others) and has undermined the social contract (flippantly disregarding the welfare of people in peripheral economies).
Anyone remember the solidarity clause in the Lisbon Treaty? Well, what about it?
The German wheel will turn !
If a Greek leader goes into a bunker and shoots himself, we’ll consider it.
Some things never change and it is not greek leaders i m talking about…
Like it or not these are different than the ones we ve had for so many years
So the fact that Hitler shot himself in the bunker gives the Germans the right to default on their debts and everybody else to pay for them. Come off it.
:D :D very very dark
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That’s disgusting!!
?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???????????? ???????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????. ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ? ?????????? ??? ????????? ??? ???????? ??? ????????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??????????? ????? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ?? ???????? ??? ????? ???. ????????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ?????????. ?????????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ???????? ??? YouTube ??? Eurovision. ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????????? ??????? ? ????????? ???? ? ???????? ??? ??? ????????. ? ?????? ??? ? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????????? ????? ?????????? ???
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greeks are working more hours than anyone in eyrope…All these rumors became from those who dont want to solve the problem..its not a greek problem,its europian.
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-european-workers-who-work-the-longest-hours–xycGVDQ36g
A man plowing a field by hand is lazier than a man with a tractor?
Substitute the tractor with a tax system that allows to plan ahead, an office that can issue a business license within days instead of months and many more liberal measures.
So its not about us being lazy rather than purly organized.
Anyway i m also thinking that if you bail us out nothing wil change.
If you dont and we get out of the eurozone nothing will change as well but the shit is going to hit the fan.
Is this the best way Bulgaria can express itself, Dimitar?
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For sure, Germany is so proud about Merkerl, forgeting all the sacrifices it did to Greek (and others) people.
good idea. proceed.
Yes
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1057305434286492&pnref=story
All debt is going to have to be forgiven at some point. Either that, or it’s WWIII. The Torah stipulates that debt should be forgiven every 50 years, which may optimise the return on investment without losing everything in a damaging war. Of course, they didn’t have nuclear weapons in those days…
Why didn’t we think of that sooner? To base the world economy on a religious book? What can go wrong?
???? After WW2 is not the same with after THE PARTY!!!(2004-2011 /145 bn. in Primary Deficit at an ~ 200bn. G.D.P). Keep sleeping Greeks!!……
1. WW II reparations = 7.1bn USD (1938 prices) + interest => 200bn USD current debt (of course, aftair the “haircut” in 1953 from almost 17bn)
2. The “occupation loans” extracted from the Bank of Greece in 1942 = 11bn Euros current prices including interest
3. Compensation to the more than 0.5mn victims (civilians) of German army attrocities in Greece (not accounted)
4. A full, unreserved APPOLOGY to the Greek people in the way only true LEADERS do express (Willy Brandt in Warsaw, 1970s)
Current Greek debt to Germany amounts to 68bn euros (most in guarantees – not direct lending!).
There are much better ways to sort these issues out than running around fighting fires. We need to have a new Conference. A Next Level Accord. In a reshuffle of cards, all countries in the Eurozone should be invited, and those other EU members on the fence be invited to join the Eurozone prior to the NLA Conference. We have to do it now, when money is costing nothing, and the problems are many, urgent and clear. In good times, nobody will remember or care, and then we will just cycle in and out until it all falls apart.
Trond, you say that now money is costing nothing. And yet about 90% of the money loaned to Greece has gone to pay interest. That shows you the degree of exploitation that the European banks have exerted on the Greeks.
And in particular German, French the ECB and the IMF. It’s business, sir, and the name of this business is called extortion.
Maybe dimitar lose his girlfriend from a Greek man !!!!
We Sorry for that my friend !!!!
Keep speaking bad to cover the lose !!!!!
Absolutely yes and without losing time anymore
Dimitar tourists bring Money its a policy you shouldn’t be anoyed by having a tourist place that all Balkans come here and act like crazy its good thing it makes you popular and brings you money.idk you may have Slavic Macedonian origins and I can understand your hate but if not and ur pure Bulgarian why so much hate we have so in common Bulg Gre and Turkey are three countries with so many common things that they share their industries also Gre and Bulg are also in alliance in army and everything why you hate that land and those people so much
Sure
They I hope you’re ready to forgive Portugal’s and Ireland’s. Oh, Spain will probably ask for the same. Why not? It’s seems like nothing about accounting.
That is why more and more economists talk about the Eurobond, where the eurozone debt is all handled as one.
no
why not?
We should forgive everybody! To hell with the responsibility. Responsability is just so… old-fashion.
Greek people are not asking for a forgiveness. They are asking for a chance, a haircut of 30% of the debt so as they can can proceed to a growth. Instead, if this doesnt happen, Europe will be responsible for the total distruction of a nation, because of numbers! We are people here, not euros! People, men, women, children, babies! PEOPLE!
No
THAT COMPARISON IS OUT OF ORDER….
Do the Greek people get the same treatment? I mean, lots of people have lived in debt for the past 6 years due to the crash. Will you wipe off their debts too?
Spain is paying back so do not lable iT under the same rate…Banks are The major culprits of this chaos!!! And we know that NY and London city finantials hub lost it too.
mnay I r3emind all….its not about forgiveness..its about a country which has over decades spend money it did not have….others have to stay in now..
Commme?????
YES
Yes what dear
No
Yes! We should forget all debt! We will be then the United States of Europe!
Are you insane…. Of course not!
Definetively NO.
No
yes
Was Greece destroyed by a war?
yes!! By someone that started a war!
No way, EU tax payers are sick of that game. Everyone has to pay his own debt.
Actually yes. WWII. Germany wasn’t destroyed by a war, she initiated the war which destroyed and killed millions. So if she deserved that, then what can you say for Greece whose only mistake was that it entered a faulty monetary zone and she couldn’t follow monetary policy on its own when she had to. The fault was Greece’s but also the rest of the Eurozone’s.
Are you sure that Germany’s debt was ‘forgiven’ in 1953? I have the impression that ‘restructured’ might be a more accurate term.
If Greece wins this, others should also benefit from this.. So I am really surprised that nations with heavy burden of debt, and also suffering from austerity, are saying no! If the poorer regions beat austerity then it is good for all of us. The debt of the poorer regions, are not only their own. It is a European problem. Because the euro was so badly constructed, once in the eurozone they had to overspend to keep up with Germany, an economic powerhouse. To the benefit of the richer nations of course. A weaker euro benefits Germany hugely. While for Spain, Greece, Italy or Portugal and others not so much.. The periphery must stick together in this, not be against each other. How hard is this to get? Austerity hasn’t solved anything so far, especially in Greece which has seen the worse than other bailout nations!!
Definitely otherwise It’s not equality of all members. Germany was helped also when reunited ! I am a citizen of three EU countries and believe in a Europe of solidarity not punishment.
Beside the fact that “piigs” balance problems belongs to other causes. Should european people (mediterranean and northen) be slave of german-bruxells establishment? I wish to be european. But in a europe in wich people came before money.
Damn, Bulgaria has almost no debt, only 15-16 billion. We need to make debt and then we can all forgive it:)
Now the germany must pay.
Is very hard for a few to understand that ??????
THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENT BETWEEN THOSE TWO SITUATIONS !!!!!
Germany at 1953 have destroy many countries (2d war) and they pay some of them (not Greek yet) that’s why dint have money (but Greece sign to help them)
GREECE 2015 have pay the debt 4 times but because they give us the highest interest ever we still own money FOR THIS BUSINESS GERMANY MAKE !!!
IF ANYONE CANNOT SEE THE DIFFERENT …. NEED DOCTOR !!!!!!
as long as all the other countries get the same treatment…. sure
No.
“Forgiveness” is an unfitting term when it comes to debt payment. A proper reformation of the debt payment program must be laid out by the greek goverment and accepted by the EU. This, to be honest, is exactly what the current left-wing goverment has set out to do, but in an extremely inexperienced and badly put manner. The problem the people the Greeks pay their debts to. A big part of the debt Greece owes is not to Germany, but to companies. This brings up the problem of the “owning” of countries by companies by debt. Debtocracy is a malpractice that is raging; what needs to be done is not “forgiveness”, but 1) the proper management of the humanitarian crisis in greece and 2) the re-establishment of the troika, but on looser terms. The troika is not the devil; it is a monitoring service that has helped Ireland and Spain get back on track. With proper planning, patience and strict limitations against poverty and unemployment, led by a non-radical goverment, Greece can get back on the right track within 50 years.
When of what is written in this article, you should know that our European friends that the debt created in Greece, this responsibility not only have Greeks and other Europeans who, through armament, loans, etc. “lending” money.The European Union came to the solidarity of peoples beyond numbers !
Why not?
That sounds fair, germany acts like ww2 was 1000 years ago. They act like 70 years ago, in germany there are bo germans. So as the russians, sneaky bastards
They done too much horrible things in europe, so 150 mil de marks is not enaught.
No, they must stand up and work!
My daughter as well as many others I know here work between 70-80 hrs a week. She gets no days off, no overtime. If she refuses she is replaced. The people (Most) work seven days a week and very long hours. Since this “loan situation began, salaries have been cut, in many cases to 1/3 of the already super low rates, and all taxes have been increased. The average family of four or five here live on about 700€ a month. In the U.S. This is poverty level. I am not an economist but who in their right mind thinks that people can keep paying higher taxes while taking home less money. When taxes alone equal your income you have nothing left to live on and that is the direction it has been going here for the last 5 yrs. we are not in this mess because Greek people are lazy. We are in this mess because of crooked politicians on both sides. The debt must be forgiven because it is not sustainable and I can’t believe that any intelligent person who really looks at the situation here can’t see that.
By the way, speaking about depts, why dont you greeks return Belomorska Trakia to Bulgaria?
Keep dreaming…
Read history carefully. Not only school history.
Molon lave (ela da vsemes) pederast!
Yes most definitely. Most of this debt its owned to the Central Banks or other fat cat 1% ers who can absorb the loss.
Yes
If Germany forgive Greek debt
Greece economy will be stable
Of course
YES
Konstantinos Tertivanidis
I think, that Greeks must pay for their credits. They are not poor. They have hidden incomes. When the Greek women go to Bulgaria to work, I will believe that Greece has not money for paying.
keep dreaming… Till then, send your women in Greece!
No, because we will create more debt afterwards, the way our economy is constructed. If we create a more realistic system with a more flexible public sector, a clear cut tax collection system and get rid of all the spending that goes towards those who unfairly benefited from PASOK ND and now SYRIZA, then EU could make a significant cut of the Greek debt. But while we refuse to function in a more European like mentality, EU should not make any kind of political or financial sacrifices purely based on good will.
Of course! Europeans have made a huge effort to build a prosper and modern Germany.
The comparison is out of line!
How about east European debts? USA and Britain throw our countries- Poland, Hungary, Czech Slovakia- to Soviet hands, put us to live under communist domination as experiment, although we have revolted against in 1956, thousands have died in front of Soviet tanks! After that IMF gave huge loans to east European countries and our wages are still much more below the Greek wages!
Germany is trying to enforce a policy that makes a lot of European people poor and without hope. The people of Europe must unite against this policy it is not Greece’s problem it is a battle of ideas between the strict almost fascist mentality of Germany and the capitalist forces (banks,industries etc.) against humanistic and more people centered policies that reduce the capitalist profits…
Yes, it should.
Then we need to move over this monetary system.
la Germania , allora, pagava un debito di guerra , la Grecia ha perso una guerra ? Siamo in guerra ??? Eppure abbiamo un nobel per la pace! Come abbiamo fatto ad averlo !? Germany paid a war debt, Greece has lost a war? We are at war ??? Yet we have a Nobel Peace Prize! As we did to him!?
We need to put down the past of our minds and try to create a better Europe for all of us! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to solve anything with the national mentality of the states thinking that they are the best amongst others! Europe is the most equal and modern region of the globe and it is thanks to the great cooperation between different nations with a huge differences in culture and mentality. Diversity creates more open minded people!
Greece dept was created by corruption not only on governament level but also by its own people. Bad judgment from people to governament was what created Greece problem. For Greece to survive, the other European countries had to inject money – even countries with their own economic problems like Portugal, Irland and Spain. Now, if we forgive Greece a dept for which they did close to nothing to solve or change their way of life then it is like sending a message to other countries saying “do not worry, you can have as much dept as you want because we will always pay for it”. There is too much austerity and we all agree on that but there is also a lack of economic responsability from countries that only know how to spend. ?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.?
? Margaret Thatcher
we made 0 reforms the past 5 years and all that pressure from EU.
No. The EU is about to find out the price for structuring as a very loose confederation. Oh, it won’t just be Greece either. Enjoy it and learn from it.
It has been already to a large extent.
No way. How come ? Encourage more coruption and bad budgeting ???!!??
Bulgaria, with government finances in order, paused its bid for euro adoption since it understandably does not want to send loads of money to its prodigious and rich neigbour country.
Finances in order? Bulgaria? You are joking of course…
off course. taking into account that the US driven Marshal Plan is at the foundation of all the BS happening in the EU … its only fair that Greece gets compensated as agreed then. After all Germany is earning massively from the debt of the greek people in interest payments, banking fees and commissions, not to forget their righteousness positioning currently. So Germany start doing what you preach others must do – namely PAYING THEIR DEBTS OR GIVING THE SAME DEBT FORGIVENESS THAT THEY RECEIVED
Yes it should. It is nothing unusual to forgive debt and in this case it makes sense.
Yes, ofcorse.
German Debt was forgiven in 1953?
Which Germany?
And did Greece forgive?
I don’t get it, why u always talk about Greek debt like it was owned by Germany?
Definitely.
Yes
Everything depends on the final goal for Europe. Do we want a UNITED EUROPE or GERMANY and the rest? Germany has made a lot of damage during the 2 World Wars and everybody wants to forget this……. A decision for a UNITED EUROPE can make a new beginning with the European future…. stop thinking about the BANKS and their profits and lets talk about people and their prosperity….
Yes…..
Ok lets make something clear. Greece has not forgiven the German debt. They should give back what they own to Greece not only from the loan what they took but also they have to pay pack for all the distraction what they created of families villages they destroyed (didimoticho kokinia kontomari kandanos vianos amira etc etc) and after that Greece will give back what they own to Germany. something like maybe 10% what Germany still own to Greece.
Definitely NO, it is not German money only but European money and we want ours back
If this was a private debt, the bank wouldn’t forgive shit. Dunno if it really compares, though.
No, Greeks doesn’t deserve special treatment, maybe It’s time to be held accountable for exactly what they are, a poor, peripheral “Olive Oil Belt” nation.
it’s either debt forgiveness or debt rescheduling on a sustainable basis – I really cannot for the life of me understand why Germany won’t longfinger the debt over, say, 100 years and only if there’s a certain level of budget surplus from which to make payments after basic needs for the administration of Greece have been met – Germany’s obstructionism smacks of sadism and delight in others suffering, something for which Germans were notorious not so long ago
You want an answer???? Here it is http://www.pappaspost.com/leading-german-politicians-split-with-merkels-position-on-war-reparations-to-greece-it-would-be-good-for-us-germans-to-put-our-own-house-in-order-in-terms-of-our-history/
Yes
Sure all the chatter here with non-Greek origin now are going to be trying to open the box of Pandora and to blame Greeks for the world crisis and even for Ozone whole, but i only want to say one line more: the nowdays of Greece is the future of yours, so be more composed and structured in your critics, trying to see the core of the problems and reasoning it, because the Greek problem is not only Greek, but as well yours, just u dont know that u are dead the same way we are!
Dimitar I hate your attack party also but if you want it in your government is your right and generally Bulgaria maybe on EU but didn’t gave not even a penny or will give for Greece so you can’t just hate our prime minister because you just don’t like his face or something he didn’t cause or risk ur countrys economy or sth it’s democracy and we vote for him that’s how it is
Im sure Greece will survive perfectly well on its own, outside of the EU. Though some of my Greek friends outside of Greece are desperately trying to make money and send it home for their parents, I dont know what they will do if they cant work in the EU anymore, they have no resources. Maybe Ireland should ask for a few quid from the famine times too.
Do you actually believe that Greece can repay 365 billion euros? There is no chance Greece can do that and why countries such as Germany and USA with bigger depth don’t have the same issue?
Bill AlpasAimilia Renieri
Not forgiven. Bailout and detachment from international trades indefinitely. Let Greece die the death it deserves
yes
?h come on…So many uninformed people…Greek debt was in 2009 about 120 billions euros.During the crisis and all the “reforms” ,loans ,financial instructions etc it became 300(or more ) billions …That happened ,apart of the economical reduction ,mostly becouse of the speculation that the funds (the big players) did so they earned huge amount of money.Just Deutsche Bank has earned more than 80 billions euros out of the greek crisis….
And btw,i would like to read some opinion of German citizens.WHere are they ,they dont use facebook,or they dont pariticipate in debating europe ,why should they,they dominated europe already…
Greece needs to invoice Germany for those war reparations.
Greek debt must not be forgiven. There is nothing to forgive. Greek debt is illegal. Should be refuted. Not forgiven. Luckily the parliament started to audit it.
There is no negative or positive reply in this question. We should be really careful about we are al talking about. Probably we should forgive a part of the debt but I am not agree if we are making a comparation with a past that almost no one prefeer to remember..
Yes
The answer is in between. It is true that Greece is in this situation because it lied to everybody and stole the money, not put it to use for the good of the economy. But the population shouldn’t pay for the sins of the political clas.
However, stronger supervision from EU and ECB to the greek finances is a must. Also , EU should not allow the country to fall prey to speculators. We should act like a Union for good or worse. If the situation came so bad, it is also because EU failed to properly supervise its members and the use of the capital lend to various countries.
So save Greece but make sure it learns its lesson ;)
Noone here in Greece wants to be forgiven. We have the right thought to find out what this dept is about. First we need to find out how much we took and who took advantage of our smashing via austerity..
The debt of Germany was forgiven to allow the European economy to grow. If the Greek debt was to be forgiven, it would be just another episode of feeding a guy with diarrhea… You can feed him as much as you want, but he money would turn to shit just after… I kind of agree with Alina Toarna…
Only if Turkey is allowed into the EU. I dislike the excluding attitude of the Greek Govts to date.
Let Greece go out of Europe if they don’t want to correspond with E.U. finance laws! Let’s see how it would manage in that area with Turkey, Iran and Syria without the so called austerity of E.U.
Everybody has a debt, show me a country without debts.The question is that austerity measures will never permit a country to get back on its feet and be able to repay even a small amount of it. The real problem today is austerity that suppresses growth .
Why? Did Greece go through a devastating war and we didn’t see it?
ofc, let us give an example to everybody: hey, you can borrow as much money as you like and not give them back, nobody is supposed to work anymore
Why? Their system is not working They need to change it.
No
I see some Europeans are forgetting the rule of the previous century when being persecuted by the German government so let me remind you of the quote with some minor changes.
When they came for the greeks, I didn’t speak up because I was not a Greek. When they came for the Portuguese, I said nothing because I was not Portuguese. When they came for the Spaniards, I said nothing because I wasn’t a Spaniard. Then they came for me, but there was no one left to speak for me.
Yes but with some condtions!
Anushka Raghav Vidhi Facebook is also popping up with moot stuff hahahaha
Zaid Sufi Wahidi- lol
Only if they stop corruption. Stop paying government drivers that have not been employed for the last 30 years,etc.
Yes
Haha, even fb wants to help us Zaid Sufi Wahidi Anushka Shah Vidhi Shah
Greece should be helped to stand on her feet. This means jobs, healthcare, education, the ability to count on a better future, and of course democracy… Greek citizens are European citizens. The choice of economic formula is open for deliberation.
You want a monetary union —> you must save Greece. The euro itself is a project of domination of strong economies against poor economies. This is the paradox of the Euro, a monetary union without a State.
Yes. The only problem is that this debt was created to save german banks…
If only everyone realized this as well.The largest part of the debt does not belong to Greece.
Yes
??????. ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???????? ???????. ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ????. ???? ?? ???????????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ? ?????. ? ????????? ?????? ????????? ????????? ??? ??? ????? (“?? ?????? ??? ??????????”) ??? ??? ????????????. ????????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ??? (?????) ??? ???? ???????????? ? ???? ??????? (?????). ????? ??? ????????????? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????. ? ?????????? ??? ?? ???????? ???? ???????? ???????? ?? ?????????? ??? ???????. ???? ???????? ??? ???????????…
No. They stole the money.
Yes but Greece should allow EU police to investigate their corruption and crime . EU police should work together with Greek police and destroy their corruption . The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over ?20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was ?28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
I definitely agree! Finally, make EU work as a union! Provide tight control mechanisms across all of its borders and provide help to all states. Greek authorities are handicapped because of corruption and the unwillingness of the EU partners to help. Us europeans need to cooperate on this and destroy corruption inside EU (don’t forget that German authorities are not providing any help to the Greek state which investigates the Siemens corruption case. On the contrary they provide “asylum” to Christoforakos!)
Yes!
Greeks are sacks!
Greece alternatives: pay the debt and reform the system to be sustainable; or just get out of EU. If it was easy to get in by using Goldman Sachs, it’s also easy to get out.
Yes, it has to be forgiven, of course.
Monetary Phenomena: “TYRANNY OF THE STATUS QUO”
“The purely monetary connection between ruler and subject demonstrated the absence of any other relationship. The continuous depreciation of currency by rulers was an appropriate technique within such a relationship; for these methods, which give all the benefits to one side and the entire loss to the other. This has been traced to the fiscal policy of rulers who use the royal prerogative of coinage as a means of taxation without concern for the consequences of devaluation”- Georg Simmel, from Philosophy of Money.
The progressive deterioration in the value of money through history is not an accident, and has had behind it two great driving forces- the impecuniousity of governments and the superior political influance of the debtor class. The power of taxation by currency depreciation in one which has been inherent in the state. The creation of legal tender has been and is a government’s ultimate reserve and no state or government is likely to degree its own downfall, so long as this instrument still lies at hand unused
No.ask me why.
Well, if debts were about to be paid from countrie’s responsible politics and the part of citizens that got rich during illegal actions in and outside of each country, I would choose NO. BUT I CANNOT UNDERSTAND, why politics, nations, commissions, do not defend people and citizens and do not protect them. On the other hand, others countrie’s debts were forgiven for sustainable reasons, not once but many times! So, finally my answer is YES, I believe it is fair for Greek citizens. I am Greek, and I wish to see all the corrupted and responsible ones out of our country at last! Also I would to remind to many of you, that it was Greece in the past, that loaned money for other countries expenses! Is this fair to you?
Yes must be a cooperation a longer time to pay it and stop kill us for mercedes and refrigirators without respect of our lifes …the debt are not just money but tokoi tokoglyfia…..they became rich from us and they love see us….pay and pain.
Here is an interesting article from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) which analysis the economic relationship between the Third Reich and Greece during WWII.
It reads like a deja-vu: Greece had the same problems as today (bloated bureaucracy, unable to serve treaty obligations etc.).
In letters to the editor (postings) readers claim that Greece has still not payed back loans it received from the German Kingdom of Bavaria after Greece’s independence from Turkey in 1827.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/europaeische-union/historische-schulden-die-akte-griechenland-13483054.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/economic-historian-germany-was-biggest-debt-transgressor-of-20th-century-a-769703.html
Go go Greece in Bankrupt.
Sins are only forgiven after confession & only in certain churches- not applicable in legal transactions between elected governments, its politicians & private business!
~14 consecutive years of Greece economic growth ended when huge tax evasion, corruption and structural weaknesses in the Greek economy became too overwhelming.
The good old times ended when government politicians mischievous colluded by accepting “assistance” offered (& taken) by Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase and other banks! Further more, since the mid 1990’s the missing Greek exports & trade differential remained a puzzle. 2014 Exports: E27.2 bill & Imports: E47.7 bill- diff: over ~E20 bill gone- reasons?
Financial Trojan horses were developed which enabled the governments of Greece, Italy and many other European countries (“The Club Med”) to hide their borrowings-by receiving “cash in advance”- eventually ending in disaster. Although the (innocent) Greek workforce working the most (1,900) hours/year among their European fellow workers!
Please, FIRST demand accountability & better governance from your Greek politicians, criminal investigations & prosecutions- not “forgiveness” by other countries taxpayers!
Judge for yourselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis
Don’ t think so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNDsyOJvXmM
No
Greece needs reform and a haircut. However if the EU does that European citizens must not lose a cent!!!ALL THE MONEY THAT GREECE BORROWED FROM EU COUNTRIES MUST BE PAID BACK!!!ALL OF IT!!! We must not be in debt to EUROPEAN STATES!!!!!!!!! Greek politicians need to destroy the oligarchy and pay back the debt to other european states immidietely!!! After this is done Greece should be kicked out or forced out or allowed to leave the EU! Anti-hellenic retoric in the EU is growing and it won’t stop untill we are out. We must PAY BACK ALL THE MONEY AND LEAVE BY OURSELFS!!! ALL THE MONEY BORROWED BY THE EU MUST BE PAID BACK!
An entire generation of Greeks such as my self grew up reading newspapers that say how bad we are as a nation and how corrupt and how lazy…All my life I was pro-EU and pro-Euro but I cant take it anymore, I am done!!! If SYRIZA doesn’t fix the state and doesn’t fight the oligarchy in order to pay the debt to other states, REAL GREEKS LIKE ME MODERATE PEOPLE WHO PAID THEIR TAXES ALL THEIR LIFE WILL GO BERSERK! I am sick and tired of this, the EU, Junker, Daiselblum and all the DEBT!! SYRIZA DESTROY THE OLIGARCHY AND PAY THE DEBT TO OTHER STATES NOW!!!
European people must take their money back and we must be isolated for a couple of decades to grow as a nation become more mature. We can’t be at the center of attention anymore. 1/4 of the population is below the poverty line, if Syriza fails to fight the oligarchy, fix the state and pay all the debt New Democracy and PASOK created you will see a different Greece!
No haircuts, no debt forgiven!!! EUROPE MUST TAKE ALL ITS MONEY BACK! I will not have my children be rediculed by other europeans and be called beggars like I was!
SYRIZA YOU HAVE 6 MONTHS TO DO THIS, IF YOU CANT LEAVE AND LET SOMEONE ELSE TRY!
If everybody loans money, lives like king without thinking of tommorow and after that begs for more and forgivness of its debts – all the world will stop functioning. It’s all your fault my greek neighbours… You should pay now for your easy life in the past.
NO NO NOUP NO NO NO NO
It’s long overdue. Only way they can survive in the European union else Greece has to quit in order to have its own currency so as to devaluate
The debt of every country must be forgiven
Dear friends from Eastern Europe, your complaints are totally understandable, but you’re shooting against the wrong target.
There’s a characteristic story in Greece about this:
There once was an old lady who all she had was a goat! One day, the goat suddenly died. God felt sorry for her and asked what she wanted in return. The old lady answered “I want the neighbor’s goat… dead!!!”
The European integration shall not achieve by the povertization of Greece and its natives, but with the economic-political unification.
OTHERWISE THERE WILL BE THE EUROPE OF PLEBEIANS (of periphery) AND PATRICIANS (of center)!!!
And don’t forget! From the 240 bis that the creditors gave, only 6 went to the Greek economy!
The rest 234 bis was given for the bailout of the German and French banks!!!
So the real question should be” Should the loan that was given to save the german-french banks, be forgiven?”
Germany defaulted on debts totaling nearly 150 billion in the last century to greece, but has zero room for negotiations with the new Greek government?!? Greece needs to reforms its economy but should not be held to a different standard than Germany
Hey…! The US will be next so why not…! Lol…
Stick it to the bankers…!
As is well known, Greece was assisted in its accountancy set up by leading bank players to enable it to be part of the European Union. It was done to expand the European objective as a land grab to enhance the notion of power and size. All of those in on this deal knew for sure Greece and many others they were bringing in were not financially equipped for this move. So the set up was a fraud in the beginning. It was an irresponsible gamble the equivalent of a spin on the roulette table. And they did it knowing they would be bailed out by the workers of the world.
This fraud backfired through the roll of Wall Street ponzi schemes, as it was intended to do, in order to, quite openly, steal the revenue of the European, British and world peoples entire economy and to enable leading billionaires to increase their holdings beyond imagination. It was a game to them. Absorb their smiling faces and brash stance. Monarchs of old have nothing on this crowd.
Addtionally, this theft was perpetrated by government and bank officials also in full knowledge of the risks they were taking with the balance of world finance, but, they wanted to play high rollers to enrich their own portfolios so they could gloat about their tremendous treachery paying off as they predicted. And they continue with it today. The UK chancellor was, once again, trying to sell us the same crock yesterday. Listen carefully to this documentary. These creeps took us all to the cleaners, tell me why you feel the thieves should get away with it whilst expecting the workers to pay for it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQzEWeGJLP0
To put this right those responsible should be personally held to account. All of them and all of their institutions. We should be following the Icelandic method of ridding ourselves of this smug rot.
Greece officials and their financiers conspired with this fraud. Not the Greek people. Or, any other ordinary person in each of our countries, who today are working their balls off trying to get these economies to float again. And take special note of this, how many of these grinning billionaires, who have more than trebled their ludicrousy wealth from this fraud, are paying with their hoards of cash?
The one effective answer would be to confiscate their assetts as they are the pickings of criminal moves to impoversih the peoples of the world. Then use the proceeds to nationalise the lot in order to eliminate their opportunities to do this again. And jail the bastards who complain against these moves to correct the mess they created. Let them squeal in the hell holes they create for others.
The Greek people are not the villains in this disaster and they should not be facing starvation as a result of the greed of those they didn’t even know existed. And that goes for all of us.
And to finish this revellation off, take a look at the low life, trailer trash taste these creeps have. This is what they take us all to the cleaners for. A load of Las Vegas style garbage. Which is an indication of their disturbed satanic mentality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwxP_OZWWRg
What the nazis didn’t manage to do by force and war. The 21st. Century Neo-Nazis have done it by economic means. Germany is the one that should leave EU. +12.000 casualties along Europe have died murdered by German bankers. Nazism is very still alive inside Germans hearts.
No!
Yes.
It’s more complicated than that.
Some sort of a fair deal will have to be reached
the problem is not the debt… but the interest rate!… ECB gives money to private banks at 0.25% and they to Greece at 8%… they say greece is risky… so what if they dont pay? they should pay the 1% like germany, or if you want the 8% but only to 1 every 8 inversors… this would be mathematically elegant…. the rest is just burglery.
Why?!?
…
Sure why not.
No, because then it has to be forgiven to other countries in the similar situation. There is something else wrong here. How can others manage their debts but Greece can’t? Japan has the highest debt in the world, so people there should have been much more discontent with their lives, but they are not. I wonder why? In Europe we have Italy, Iceland, Portugal, Ireland, Cyprus and Belgium – all with national debts exceeding 100% of their GDP. Spain, France and UK owe more than 90% GDP, Germany has 80% debt. They are all working to reduce it and are also suffering as a result. In addition, salaries and pensions in the two poorest states in EU – Romania and Bulgaria, are much lower than in Greece. Then what would be the justification to the hard working and suffering people in all the above mentioned countries, if Greece’s debt is forgiven with a magic wand? This would be totally unjust. What is needed is better management – more to be taken from the rich and less from the poor, the Greek government needs to do its job and collect taxes promptly. Also people there should understand that they need to make some sacrifices, just like their northern neighbours do, by living with lower wages. 80% of Bulgarians are poor by European standards but the country’s 18% debt is not going to be forgiven to help improve the situation. Greece is not the only one in deep crisis, so they cannot claim preferential treatment over others.
how much was the german debt that was forgiven in 1953
No. And the comparison this question drwas is ridiculous and stupid.
Of course, they’ll never make it out of the slump if whatever profits the country is having is being channeled to pay for interest, rather than investment in making the economy grow.
The comparison is the consequence of non realistic rules, yes the Greek debt could be partly forgiven, it is now part of the European debt. The real question is how Europe will run the question in the future.
What has Economics to do with Forgiveness? CONDESCENDING and patronizing! How about HONESTY and good economic SENSE? Like housewives do blissfully oblivous to Power greed and vanity. I PUKE with the MESS you make.Get rid of your CORRUPT.Greece,cradle of Western civilization…My ass
What have you become?! For shame
Germany had a big debt because of a ww2 which was lost. But the difference btw Greece and Germany is the first had a powerful industry and economy which the Allias could only win from. Greece can only dream about such economy, technical progress or else… You have sea and islands. Without the tourism you are nothing.
claro. na mesma proporo e com juros.
1° forgive Greek debt
2° don’t mention the war
3° end of story
OECD stats about “total debt” of the year 2011(2 years after crisis. Imagine before)!!! Check it out! It only takes a minute! You’ll be surprised!!!!!….. https://scontent-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/10305069_10205079571401555_3918063892618512255_n.jpg?oh=026ea671fd2cac355ca02076f2c18122&oe=55802958
The Germany’ s economic wonder was a result of germans’ discipline and hard work which your lazy greek fellows truly lack. West Germany was much more developed to gain something from GDR which was robbed by USSR. South countries are lazy by default. We bulgarians are lazy too. The oriental thinking has made us a bad favour. Nicolas, stop blaming others for your people’s own gilt. You have to start working, not only laying on your back and waiting for the tourists to bring you money. It’ s better and easier that way but you can not only rely on that…
P.S. Greece gave what to Germany? Dust and sand? Oranges or olives? You are pathetic. Greece had worse economy than Bulgaria before 80’s… Your country received enough gifts and last year over 100 bil. were forgiven and other money given to your country. You people are so arrogant. You think you Hellas is the start and end of everything in this world… I am sorry to inform you your glory has ended thousands years ago.
More to the point how many billions had Germany stolen from Greece during the war. Who encouraged the civil war that followed and who backed the right wing military junta that followed that. And yes, if you take a back look on History, Hellas gave a lot more to the world than the world has given to Hellas. This is not arrogance just a perspective of History.
Let them breethe. Welfare for all Europeans. http://www.WWSEEP.com .
Nicolas, for example I don’ t blame anyone but ourselves for Bulgaria’s fate. Yes, USSR used us, now the west and especialy USA are using us. But who is to blame? Our own politicians – national trators sold us for little money. We deserve what Bulgaria has turned to. We destroyed everything good in our country. Now we are slaves to foreign countries which are building what they paid our politicians to destroy…
Who’s hard working… and who’s lazy????????….. http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS
OECD stats about “total debt” of the year 2011(2 years after crisis. Imagine before)!!! Check it out! It only takes a minute! You’ll be surprised!!!!!…. https://scontent-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/10305069_10205079571401555_3918063892618512255_n.jpg?oh=026ea671fd2cac355ca02076f2c18122&oe=55802958
http://agonaskritis.gr/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/workers.jpg
The belittlement of Greece and the character assassination of the modern Greek National character littering the media originates from (corporate) Hermanic sources. To make Europe Hermanic necessitates the belittlement of Greece. Greece stands in the way of Hermanic expansion eastwards, towards Ukraine. A weak subdued Greece, skint and destitute, paves the way for Germany to focus Hermanic interests eastwards. Let it be known that Greece and her allies challenge Hermanic domination of Europe…face to face – eyeball to eyeball!
Hermanic Europe…where only Hermanic countries develop and prosper is in nobody’s interest sept Merkels and Schaubles. Suspicions that Germany is working on blueprint for total economic-domination of Europe first, then cultural-domination later are rife!
Domination of continental Celtic countries is almost complete. See the cowing of Celtic Iberia, Cisalpine-Italy and Transalpine Europe. Domination of West-Slavic Europe and South-Slavic Europe next. With Hellenic and Latin areas of Europe subdued into insignificance…Hermanic Europe pushes eastwards towards Ukraine. The economic and cultural domination of Europe then completes. Hermanic Europe scripts itself cultural-historical narrative to common ancestor (Karalos Magnos) Charles the Great and future Hermans are raised on this.
Greco-Roman classicist history becomes insignificant in Hermanic-Europe. Greeks and Latins can wallow in their own nostalgia like the lazy, cheating, southern Europeans they are…in Hermanic eyes.
Can You See it Now!
No, but its interest should be reduce or eliminated. And the debt audited as to what is real debt and what is not. Europe made a huge mistake providing money to banks to buy state debt. Euro central bank should of bought the debt at the same interest it loaned the money to banks. This way the states would be spending billions in paying back interests to these banks. But since the EU was made for big business and the elite, the scam came full circle.
Yes but EU should send police there and hunt gangsters in the same way American was hunting Nazis . If they don’t destroy corruption in few Years time they are going to make the same thing .
Should BE in the some conditions like Germany has in 1953,..
Yes ! Absolutely
debt is virtual, a simple piece of paper
Markets dont expect repayment to pari anyway (current bond prices 60%) … better change greek bonds into an inclusive european bond 1:5 or 1:10 with a special option/coupon in correlation of future growth in the eurozone or something like that
No !!!!!
Independently from the positive or negative answer on the Greek-debt-forgiving question independently from the actual parallelism (I have not enough knowledge on the actual Greek question), a question regarding the actual parallelism: does the moderator know that there was no Germany yet (as we now know it) in 1953?
The Economic consequences of the pace – John Maynard Keynes
I have a further question: is the legal framework the same as 1953? I don’t think so, or maybe I missed something about the last 60 years of history.
It is not only German money, so no, it is OUR money too. We want payment, commitment and reforms, so there will not be a repeat, do not trust Greeks
Definately!!!
.
No, they should declare bankruptcy while in the EuroZone and let all 19 countries pay off their debt.
Share the currency, share the debt, share the misery.
No.
Greece can’t possibly repay the level of debt incurred, so there will eventually have to be some element of debt forgiveness somewhere down the line. What Syriza must learn is that their manner of going about this is ham-fisted and counter-productive; they cannot unilaterally divest themselves of the obligations signed up to by previous Greek Governments. These war reparation demands are a convenient smokescreen from the runaway spending policies which brought this situation about in the first place.
Yes, of course!
Never!
even if greece had no debt at all, they still wouldn’t be able to survive.
yes
Yes.
No.
Money is debt! However, all debt will have to be “forgiven” at some point, it’s only logical. The ancient Israelites came up with the very sensible idea of a debt forgiveness “jubilee” every 50 years (Leviticus 25:8-13). Unfortunately, their modern day spiritual descendants seem to have forgotten, leaving bankruptcy and war as the only mechanisms for achieving the same effect.
Noo
yes, of course.
Yes !!
The total under negotiation was 16 billion marks of debt resulting from the Treaty of Versailles after World War I which had not been paid in the 1930s, but which Germany decided to repay to restore its reputation. This money was owed to government and private banks in the U.S., France and Britain. Another 16 billion marks represented postwar loans by the U.S. Under the London Debts Agreement of 1953, the repayable amount was reduced by 50% to about 15 billion marks and stretched out over 30 years, and compared to the fast-growing German economy were of minor impact.
The parties that were involved besides West Germany included Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Great Britain, Greece, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa, the United States, Yugoslavia and others. The states of the Eastern Bloc were not involved. The negotiations lasted from February 27 to August 8, 1953. On 3 October 2010 the last payment was made of 69.9 million euro.
http://www.thepressproject.net/article/74741/Debt-and-shame-Its-time-for-a-new-narrative
No, it should not. The two situations are very different.
yes, they will never repay it
Exactly how much of the debt has been paid to date? Isn’t true that the debt in fact has increased due to continues lending by the Greek government. And if the debt is wiped clean, who is actually paying for that? Banks have money because people put them there! If the EU is paying to scratch the debt, its in fact the tax money belonging to other european citizens which is used to pay for the greek peoples debt. Tax money that was actually intended to send their kids to school and to pay for healthcare etc… Money is not just created out of thin air, in the end there is always someone who has to pay!… If not our greek friends, its us… I think its scary that so many commenters here seam to think that money can just be created out of air…
Join the BRICS :)
It should be re structured to make it manageable. Debt isn’t a problem, it when you’re debt is a total millstone that it is.
The no voice indefinitely in a minority in this discussion
Some Germans today insist that a debt is a debt, and that Greece must repay in full. They should know better from their own history, starting with Keynes?s unsuccessful plea to lower Germany?s reparations burden. They should recall the relief that Germany was granted through the Marshall plan, and the 1953 London agreement on German debts. Did Germany ?deserve? the relief in 1953? That was not the right question. Germany?s new democracy needed the relief, and Germany needed a fresh start. It played a major role in the economic recovery and construction of Germany?s democratic institutions. ( http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/21/greece-profit-german-history-1953-debt-relief )
no
it should be forgiven just the part of germany, which is just few milions euros, but debts of greece are ten times higher. this is just for hiding the truth.
Of course, why not, western europe made horrible things in the past to be at this stage and now, they are talking about debts wich you are forced to make them.
Ich schlage vor, dass nur die Teil von Greechenlands Schulden sind entlassen die entsprechen die Kriegsschulden von Deutschland. Aber es ist nur wenige milionen euro, ich habe gehoert es ist nur eine Viertel Miliarde euro, abe Griechenland schuldet ihrer Glaeubiger einige Drei hundert miliarden euro. Es ist nur zu borgen die Wahrheit.
You have already exhausted the people. They make suizide, and have no chance for a generation. poor greece, which were destroyed by Ideology. https://secure.avaaz.org/de/krankenhauser_und_schulen_far_griechenland_ne/?tZWCdab
EU should be based on human rights, not on money. http://www.WWSEEP.com
Yes, of course but with restrictions on the political elite, the political framework and corruption that is unfortunately such a ‘feature’ of Greece.
Do you Know that the Athens stock Market is free of tax on gain?
Please, educate yourself better and question whatever propaganda is served by the mass media. The Athens stock Market tax on gain starts at 15% ..
Stop reading the “SUN”. It distorts the brain
The Greek problem is a problem of tax recovery and it stands for years
????? 1953 was after WW2.Now Greece is after a 2004-2011 Party of others people money!!……
In other words……you recognize that the euro is in fact the german mark?
@ 4:00 mins .. To the many stereo type ignorant racists, childish comments based on ignorance and racist views, are lame .. The situation is Greece is far more complicated than most realize, theres ALLOT the dumbed down public dont know about .. Kick Greece out and BRICS will welcome it the next morning, as for the rest of Europe they can turn to broke bankrupt US and its 18 TRILLION debt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmF9A3V1Xik
In France we have the other hand of the problem : too many civil servants recovering taxes… But markets like that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsbSrTgqxgA
of course it should. Everything else is immoral: protecting the banks and speculators rather than the greek people
The greek problem is trust in the state…..the greek state is voracious and the citizens try to survive..politicians are robbing the people through the state and its catastrophic bureaucratic mechanism.
No. I am a greek and I hope that through the dept, Europe will control the financial doing in Greece, which basically is a problem occuring due to potilical missuse of power.
Come on people it is 2015 ,be responsible, Greece should pay back to Europe, like every one …
No
Absolutely not!! The situation – that the debt is part and expression – is not all comparable. To compare it, in any way , goes on the same ‘path’ of the nationalist right in Germany on the twenties and thirties.
I thought the greek debt WAS already forgiven several times. Moreover, in 1953 the WW2 was not so long time ago. So the question is WHY should Europe again solve the greek economy without any reforms. And if it happens, i suppose, every european country can have such “forgiveness”.
Could you elaborate more on when the greek debt was already forgiven several times?
Greece debt should be forgiven because in this way Greeks will see an economic growth that helps also Western Ballkan. All the states in the world have depts… I wonder to who?!!!
No.
debt forgiveness?That will creat a channel for other poor members to pass through.Lets not forget that Spain,Portugal,France,Italy all have similar symptoms.We in Germany are also not internally debt free.Most communities are in dare need of basic infractructures.Immigrants are here well treated and housed.All these cost us money.So it will be proper if a member country atleast come up with solutions instead of hoping for debt pardon.
Nope, if they do that, everyone would want a cut.
What we need in Greece is simple. That Germans wake up for one minute and demand from their government to extradite the Greek criminals in Germany responsible for handling bribes in most of the economic scandals during the prevous 25 years. Second, we need Germans to understand that they should watch less TV and read more German authors inspired by the Hellenic spirit and ideals. They are quite a few…Thirdly, guys we are a country richer than yours. Germany stinks like shit. Your water is of the lowest quality. Your dairy products too. And meat? Let’s forget it. Fruit? And the list could go on. Recognize that your chemical industrial cartels are responsible for massacres so that they can patent Nature only to screw it and then to demand the South to pay for the bill. We don’t need your BMWs, your Siemens shit or whatever. We need you to fucking wake up and demand justice in Europe.
And if you expect the Greek people to pay back money sure, no problem. Let’s see how much money was distributed to people and how much was given to bankers run by German bosses. Are you idiots? Are you insane? We would all be driving around in 750iL limos….You don’t see the scum? Which Greeks should pay? The ones who work more than you? And had their pensions stolen by a bunch of criminal Central Bankers?
Of course no, it’s ALL eurozone countries money. So dear Greece, start working and give back what is ours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUlUh-nY1UY
Keep it for you.
And don’t set your dirty barbarian feet here.
If you turn pages the pages of history to suit your argument, you will always find a precedent to suit your case.
Germen debt was paid.
Yes, but also the portuguese and irish one
No.
Where is the money? The “Greeks” got it….how STUPID are you guys?
Did you really do any research before you claim such bullshit?
DO you really KNOW what is going on in Europe?
How HONEST is your BANK?
Here’s what an honest German said once…
And all of you so cool…..like they are not going to stampede upon you when they are done ripping off the others….
I admire Germany for many reasons. But if you people believe for a minute that the “Greeks” stole your money you are at least MISINFORMED. Some of you are aware….the others are too busy apparently within their fake euphoria…is it possible 7000 people commited suicide because they were rich? Or we are lazy and don’t want to work? CHECK THE MOTHER FUCKIN STATISTICS OF THE EU.
And CHECK WHERE THERE IS STILL CLEAN WATER AND BLUE SKIES.
yes
Only if the EU wants the Greeks to remain the bumbling step-children who cannot figure out how to control their money.of Europe
yes
Yes,i support Greece,I’m Albanian
not forgiven entirely, but partial and a sustainable! solution for the rest would keep everybody happy
If I got a debt and I don’t pay it I’ll get a lot of problems with bank, justice etc. So they both should pay their respective debt!
At least let’s talk about that and debate!!
Nein, die Finanztransaktionen im Zusammenhang mit der Griechenlandkrise gehren rckabgewickelt. Wre interessant zu sehen, wo die Schuldenblase dann aufplatzt.
GERMANY HAD PAY LESS THAN THE HALF DEBT UNTIL 1953
WE (GREEKS) HAD PAY 4 TIMES THE DEBT UNTIL 2013 !!!!!!!
THERE IS A BIG DEFERENT !!!!!!
Greece has not be given 1 ????.?he money went to market and bank vultures through greek loans.Plus Germany owes Greece 600 billion euros for WWII loans and reparations acc inter law.
http://www.koutipandoras.gr/article/136174/ta-atimorita-egklimata-tis-germanikis-merarhias-entelvais-poy-aimatokylise-tin-ipeiro
yes!!!!
Yes
Yes
yes. Germany had a Marshall plan after destroying most of Europe and after millions of murders… Greece has done nothing like that and is paying big bankers in the name of austerity… It should be at least, easier to pay.
No fucking way, no. Guys go to greece and talk with locals about their view of economy and their state. This is fucking communism.
The ” social democracies” have always mortgaged the future for the votes of the present.
How many countries actually have no debt?Imagine a world where the U.S. cancelled it’s debt.
no
Germany has to pay compensation to Greece,
When the Germans occupied Greece they didint come to drink a coffee they comite crime they kill people they should pay for their action.
YES
These two situations are VERY different. Until Greece reforms its economic philosophy they will just get into debt again.
If Germans owe it they have to pay. The’ve already had the Marshall Plan.
there is no valid reason for it
The problem is not the “debt” but the lack of commitement of greek elite politicians to in fact “REFORM” the country. And by reforming, no it is not simply cut wages, that is not refoming, reforming is fighting corruption, hevay penaltie for runing away from taxes, cut expense in the state, like politicans wages transport subsidies and son, seperate church from state including stoping funding of the church and so on! Until this happen, greece is basically going to remain the “same” and even if the debt is forgiven now, the country in the near future is going to hvae to be bailed again, because of the lack of reform and more impontatly the WILL to inf FACT reform!
No! Should work more effective and pay their debts!
Greece forced to get into “bailout programmes” on 2009 because THE DEBT WAS 120% of GDP… and it WAS NOT SUSTAINABLE!!!
Today after the “success” of the bailout programmes ;) the debt INCREASED TO 180%… AND IT’S SUSTAINABLE!!!!!!
You’re really funny guys!!!
According to standard practice all over the world, if a debt is not sustainable, it should be forgiven!!!
I. Wish. My. Debt. Was. Forgevin…….
we’re tlking about war reparation here…
Il faut relire l histoire exacte de l’accession au march commun puis l europe par la Grce. C est le fruit d un march de dupe orchestr par les franais. La Grce ne possdait dj pas l poque le rsultat financier suffisant que pour intgrer le groupe, et ne l a jamais obtenu par la suite. D normes sommes d argent lui ont t attribues sans aucun retour. Ce pays, que par ailleurs j apprcie normment nous a cot depuis de faramineux montants jamais rembourss. Le premier ministre grec de l poque reconnaissait lui mme … Avoir bien jou le coup… Et avoir t intgr dans notre communaut conomique juste sur base de la sympathie apporte au pays berceau de la dmocratie. Aucun effort n est encore accompli, devons nous continuer les financer. N hsitez pas a regarder le reportage difiant ” dossier confidentiel” sur France 3, il vaut mieux qu un long discours.
N’ oubliez pas que l’ économie grécque se base aux imports de produits européens. Tout l’ argent donné à Grece a été retourne a l’ économie Francaise pour acheter des avions et des bateaux militaires, des voitures, des appareils électriques etc. Si l’ argent était resté en Grece, il n’ y aurait aucune crise.
When will Greece leave the euro? It was so easy to get in with goldman sachs help right? Make everyone a favor including yourself: leave!
la Grece n’aurais jamais du etre admis au marche commun. Les autorites a bruxelles qui ont donne leur accord sommes fautif surtout.
Fernando that;s not the question of the post! But even so, if Greece will leave, it’s more than certain than the next is… Portugal!!!! ;)
Yes
YES!
Yes ???? ?? ?????? ???!
no …
Why don’t they simply declare bankruptcy? They have been insolvent since 2009. Now they’re also illiquid because EU/ECB/IMF insist that the bonuses of rich Franco-German bankers are more important than some elderly Greek’s small pension. I repeat, they’re better off without the Euro, I just cannot understand why they don’t ditch the wealth-destroying Euro.
Didn’t the IMF suggest last week that Greece should simply stop paying salaries for civil servants for a while to fund the Franco-German banker bonuses?
Forgiven yes, forgotten not. All Hellenes must not make the same mistakes again. If we end up saved, we will have to prove that we are Europeans too.
Their freakin’ economy has shrunk 25%. Maybe that turnip has been squoze hard enough?
1 What you call a bailout programm is a joke.2 Your moto is save the banks kill the people 3 Countries that will follow in default have citizens that say NO.4 you get money with lower interest and you loan us and make profits! 5 Greece can’t pay that debt since she couldn’t pay it 5 years ago when she entered the memorandum. 6 the first phrase of the Greek constitution says that POWER COMES FROM THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.Under these circumstances I don’t mind eating stones wether debt is forgiven or not.WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS NOT EUROPE!ITS EUROLIGARCHY!!!
And since we are a sovereign nation state we can give our ass to whoever pimp will give us more.there are many pimps worldwide you know….
Obviously.
Different times, different measures. No!
No way and fifty percent interes so the Greek people need to move there ass and work hard
I think that all the greek people salute you for your solidarity and well educated answer.
No. If their debt is forgiven with this system they will just keep spendind the way that eventually destroyed them and this time they won’t even find money to loan. In the long term it will harm Greece more than Greek politicians.
I don’t think that cancelling the debts solves the problem. Greece should come up with a sustainable “business model”. There are several ways to develop an economic perspective for Greece. What only a few people know, is that Greece has rich resources of oil and gas within its reach. Greece could be another Norway and thus pay back ALL of its debt within the next 20 years.
Another strategy for a new economic model is what all countries of Europe should do:
Instead of making public debt, use private capital to build infrastructure. This proposal by the German author Dirk Müller seems very convincing to me.
http://www.wiwo.de/finanzen/boerse/dirk-mueller-loest-mr-dax-die-krise/8138702-3.html
In a nutshell:
Mobilize private investor’s money to strengthen Europe’s energy infrastructure (renewables, long distance power lines, energy internet etc.). In Europe, private investors have several trillion (X,000,000,000,000) euros available to invest. Much of this money is held by pension funds who are currently investing a big part in government bonds because they are only allowed to invest in “bullet-proof” assets. Instead of trying to stimulate the loan business by ECB interventions, the EU or its member states could give a guarantee on the money invested in the infrastructure. In the worst case the member state must buy the infrastructure for the guaranteed price (but the state gets a public good for it).
sorry guys, in the German cas this haapend, in the case of Greece there was no war.EU should make it easyer to the country to pay it back, but they have to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0FM_7_drf0
” Critics say that this argument amounts to cheap populism. Greece lied about its debts, and the economy was mired in corruption, bureaucracy, tax evasion and generous social perks afforded to Greek citizens. In other words, critics believe Greece does not “deserve” debt forgiveness. ”
First STOP with the standard EU political propaganda about the so called lies from the Greek government.
Who accepted Athens after Goldman Sachs had “cleaned-up” the Greek financial books?
All EU politicians did.
Who said we gonna assist Athens at the crisis start?
All EU politicians did.
In 2000 the same EU poltitians knew about the risks, but claimed all criticasters were wrong.
By now we know the EU politicians were wrong. The IMF already admitted their mistakes. The EU politicians AGAIN think to know better.
Give the Greek the chance to grow.
Greece can have its debt cut or its reparations (which would basically be the same because greece is indebted to germany already). However it wouldn’t solve greece’s main problem: forming a working bureaucracy, taxation system and a healthy economy and national budget.
So the country should working torwards this before it claims the other. Otherwise nothing will change.
Yes. The current chokehold on Greece by its European creditors is counterproductive and motivated by Lutheran ethics of the German elite – not by any interest in European integration and Greek salvation, nor by sound economic analysis. The root of the problem is the chronic lack of solidarity from Europe when it comes to Greece’s eastern (and northern) neighbors, who maintain territorial claims against her even to this day! The Greek economy would not be in ruins if it were not for the billions spent purchasing French military aircraft and German submarines at exorbitant prices..
We need a Marshall plan to help sort Greece’s problems. The people being punished in Greece are the low paid, that actually pay their taxes.
Yes, any funding should be carefully monitored. The corrupt and the very rich, who decline to pay their taxes, need to be hammered.
But, let’s face it – most of the bail out – is bailing out banks from other parts of the EU, many German, who gave Greek banks credit, allowing them to fund the rich to buy their Mercedes cars.
Of course.
NO
Yes…
Yes!!!
No! German tax payer should not pay tax anymore than if their money are used to keep greece alive.
Yes. Let us end the misery and march towards prosperity and development.
No.
No, every legal debt should be re-payed to the last cent!
And, PS it is not only German taxpayers money, but of the whole EU.
Why only “greek debt”? Why not portuguese debt as well?
All debt will eventually have to be forgiven. The question is: do “we” need war in order to create the conditions under which debt may be forgiven?
Germany was piles of rubble and refugees. Hardly a similar situation. But I think if it was tied to conditionality-Greek gov should sever its links with Putin, support Ukraine and publicly disassociate itself from the Russian far right, and back down on the Macedonia name issue-under such circumstances Greek debt could be forgiven.
No. Greece is a problem in the region. They have problems with Turkey, Albania, Macedonia……. And for stupid reasons.
??.Instead Germany must pay 600 billions for WWII loans and reparations to Greece accord.INTERNATIONAL law.Greece must pay any loans paid to it and not to market vultures THROUGH Greece.
.
The other 18 countries in the Eurozone should pay off Greece’s debts.
Yes.
Hell no,, how about giving it to more worthy countries in the east then corrupt toilets like Greece
Will you lot forgive the Portugal, Ireland, Spain debt then????
No you wouldn’t!
Didn’t think so!
So why we should forgive Greece debt then? Just because they asking for it, or because they threatening to destabilize the eurozone?
I think is time to kick out those cowboys from Europe
No
.
The Euro (as a tool of EU integration) was suppose to bring peace & prosperity to the peoples of Europe, instead it as given mass unemployment & misery in the name of European federalism.
Thank god we weren’t stupid enough to join it.
We don’t want to be forgiven or debts.but we want Germany ,to pay her debts to Greece too…is the double amount than the amount that my country owns. ..
Eris Ahmetaj are you some sort of fanatic racist who likes the idea of 10millions souls death? Greek citicens are the problem in the region ? And the Albanians the Turks have the perfect political and economical system? Read history as it is and you might understand that Skopie as part of former Yugoslavia was be a part of the ancient Macedonia and part of later Vizantium but today they cannot change history and they cannot keep on raising generations with so much hate as the one you express here today.
Greek debt, in fact is German debt!
:)) Yeah right !
Why should it be forgiven? So that the greeks can keep living like Germans while not working at all? The debt must be paid if we want a fair EU.
Dont bielive it.
Of course yes. Many countries help to Germany with the rebuilding of the II war.
What ever people thoughts r eu will help Greece becouse it’s a big gate for eu even that Greece dosnt respect any of eu laws.grecce is steel in law war with Albania and they r steel in eu which is not ligal becouse eu is making Serbia to know Kosovo as independent which they don’t and they can enter eu
all this highly paid analysts and economics experts can’t get it right and even when they do admit they got it wrong allow Germany to continue to harass the hell out of Greece
Whatever the opinion of Greek crisis experts are on the debt forgiving, this one is a wrong parallelism. Germany, at the end of WWII and after it, went through a time which has little to be envied from other countries. It was not just a matter of money, the ”package” they got included many other things (including division), and if one cherry-picks only the debt thing (which I am not sure if it was forgiven), it would seem unappropiriated to me. And then in 1953 there was no Germany yet, so…
hang on a mo! Greece was never given back the millions in gold and art which was stolen! fair’s fair!
There is not any other solution,probably seems unfair,but if we look at the people and not at the numbers ,it’s necessary to be forgiven.
Repost!
Yes of course it should. The money just goes to the banks. The money would be best served if it could be used to support capitAl projects to create jobs and get the economy going, better used support social structures such as welfare and education. These should be the priorities
and not the needs of the bankers.
What is fair , is fair . Germany was forgiven , why not Greece …
The Greek created their mess themselves, almost all Greek had profit of the fraude that took place for years. The thought that you can spend more than you earn it still a common thought. The idea that you better avoid paying taxes is still normal. The thought of being forgiven is also considered normal, so unless there is a change of thinking and acting, there is no way that the Greek can be forgiven. I am in favor of a European aid system (temporary European Welfare) for those who are threatened to become the biggest victims of the Greek fraude. For the people of course Europe should also show that they stand shoulder to shoulder with those that cannot held responsible.
As to the debt issue you still keep on asking the wrong questions without taking into consideration the following: Should German companies be involved in almost every political scandal in Greece? Should we really as cirizens pay europe s bank system bail out? Should Europe use ECB as a blackmail tool to so many countries in order to force neoliberal policies and austerity meassures turning millions of its citizens to cheap labour privatising at the same assets like public health systems? Forgive me as a citizen why? I have never asked or taken anything from any German citizen. I work all my life in the private sector always pay my taxes. Forgive me for what?
Kick Greece out. They falsified there Balance Sheets to get into the EUROZONE.
Kick your face and hope that will be pretty!
Must find a way to see all the debts. South europe is pressing from Euro and from the debts that our stupid goverments creates…with bankers
Never
Yes.
Absolutely not. That is not going to help anyone. Its quite clear by now, that Greeks cant handle the money – when we look at the cold facts. But is it just as easy as that? Hardly. This whole chrisis should have been dealed far more better by dealing with crediters directly, whom now got it all and rest of us loose every day. I must strongly wonder if we have INTELLIGENT persons dealing this chrisis.
Yes
anna abba
Forgiven or not….the problem is the same….it will never be paid back because they don’t give them the means to do so. …with all the austerity measures …and the lack of independance due to the euro and its central bank.For those who say no without thinking…..i must remind you that many countries had their debt annuled…..For those who express hatred or super nationalistic arguments….forget about europe. ..we try to live together in harmony and peace….that is what europe is about……and for those who condemn the greeks about tax fraud…..just be sure that you live in a clean country and with clean citizens before judging the others.. …every day we hear about scandals…and they are not especially greeks.. …greeks are small fish compared to others in that matter.
No. The debt should not be “forgiven”. The Germans of today should pay the war compensation and the german company that took advantage the Athens airport for 10 tax-escaping years, along with everybody else who has not been paying taxes, should pay towards the debt. BUT… there is HUGE misplanning, mistrust, corruption and numerous reasons that have literally captivate this nation and all the other European nations. In Greece, the tax laws are ridiculous! You pay taxes from things you do not actually have, and things that they think you might have. If I want to make a small company I have to prepay a lot of things in order to open it and of course you need to have a huge amount in order to sustain it. In other countries you have time to check how the business is going. In Greece, you are either ruined before you open, or you have to be super successful, or you do not pay taxes in hope things will get better… The fact that nobody talks about these things and how we can really work together not towards paying our debt, but thrive, is beyond me!
Even if it were forgiven, we would be back in the same boat. The issue is the massive deficit we have been driving up. Even if 100% of the debt were written off tomorrow, we wouldn’t be able to finance ourselves past the next couple of months. Greece needs massive reforms first – the debt is a secondary issue.
No way!
This is not the question as we never saw the greek minister ask for it. What they want is to reestructure the debt and its repayment conditions so they can met the economic grouth. The same should be done for the All eurozone countries.
We, in Portugal, have suffered, and are still suffering, a lot to pay our debt. The same happens to the Irish, et all. Why would the Greek be specially exempt from the duty to pay debts? Why not the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Irish… and all the others?
An exemption to pay foreign debt inside the Eurozone cannot be dealt with specifically for one privileged country, but for all the European Union.
The Greece always have been Europe’s spoiled little beatch !!!
So let them pay if they want good life!!!
Then Eastern European countries would be entitled to far far far far more money
Absolutely forgiven! Greek people need to be trusted.
Of course, and change the rules with the Parlament lender of last resort
I THINK NO. WE SHOULD PAY THE LOANS WE GOT AS WE DO NOW. FOR ALL MY EUROPEAN FRIENDS WE TOOK A LOAN AND UNTILL NOW WE ARE PAYING ALL THE INTERESTS. EUROPE DIDN’T GIVE US NOTHING FOR FREE. GREEKS WORK HARD BUT ALSO THEY PARTY HARD. AS FOR THE GERMAN DEBT IN THE WAR WORLD 2 THAT GERMANS STARTED AND KILLED MILLION SOULS AND DESTROYED BURNED TO THE GROUND ALL EUROPE. THEY FORCED GREECE TO GIVE THEM MONEY WITH OUT OUR WILL(STEALING NO BORROWING) SO IT IS NOT A MATTER OF A DEBT IT’S A MATTER OF GIVING BACK WHAT THEY STOLE AS THEY DID TO OTHER COUNTRIES. SO AS WE PAY OUR DEBT THEY SHOULD ALSO.
US of Europe
German’s situation in 1953 was very different to Greece’ situation now. The German debt in 1953 was not caused by loan but court order after a war. Second, Greece is much better shape now than German was in 1945 – 53. Greece’s creditors must decide whether Greece’ debt may be forgiven. Part of the debt was already forgiven earlier. .
Germany destroys half europe steals our gold inWW2, kills hundreads of thousands of Greeks and gets her debt forgiven. Greece implements the capitaslist system of Europe imports the biggest amount of german products all these years ‘no debts should be forgive. I seee your logic there
The investment veteran George Soros has said that Greece’s attempts to escape its financial woes are now a “lose-lose game”,
The best that can happen is actually muddling through,” Mr Soros said in a Bloomberg Television interview that will be shown on Tuesday. “Greece is a long-festering problem that was mishandled from the beginning by all parties.”
The point that Soros is making is that whilst reforms are possibly the right way, the mess is so bad that a middle ground is needed. If people cannot earn more money, there is no way to grow your economy out of debt. So maybe a new soltuon is required where the debt is re-structured and support is given to get the reforms into place and tax collection effective. A write off seems a little too easy – we can find a better solution if we want to.
All you Germans frothing at the mouth would do well to remember that you have already profited more than enough with the suffering of the Greek people.
Yes
Seems there’s a pretty big confusion between what is asked and what is being discussed (some people clearly confuse direct loans, non-reimbursable funds and Greece’s debt).
1. European non-reimbursable funds given through a variety of means don’t count towards the debt and nobody’s asking for those.
2. Direct loans are between the state and whoever loaned the money. Loan agreements do count towards the debt but each loan agreement comes with its own terms and is held by whoever gave the funds.
3. Greece’s debt comes from a variety of sources (including internal). Why doesn’t Greece write off its internal debt? Why doesn’t Greece force Greek banks such as Piraeus to write off the debt? The answer is pretty simple: Piraeus would effectively lose that part of the capital which stands on the theoretical collection of that debt, would lose rating (already low due to this very reason) and would have to fire people or even declare bankruptcy.
4. Germany’s debt isn’t at all the same as the Greek debt. Germany’s debt was owed by the German state to the Greek state as war reparations. It was written off, period.
5. Greece’s current debt is only partly owed by states (pretty small part, considering the size of the debt). Germany owns a fraction of that, while private German institutions (banks, funds, etc) own much more. Just like Greece won’t write off debt owned by Greek financial institutions, other countries won’t write off similarly owned debt. And it’s good that they shouldn’t.
Sure, we can talk all they over the unfairness of the fact that banks (French, German, Irish, Greek and others, altogether) were given a bailout (non-reimbursable, by the way, for all intents and purposes) but until we have a better system and a way to replace the current one, that’s something we need to live with (and will happen again if the debt owned by those banks is written off).
So no, no parallels are possible here. But hey, if it’s a popular opinion, let’s write off all debts, Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, Irish, etc, let the banks go bankrupt together with all the pension funds, savings and investment accounts (yeah, deposits, checking and salary accounts are safe). Let every european pay for a state’s over spending.
Yes, and also the debt of the other countries. It would be a fresh start for a new Europe. What is the future of Europe under the actual circumnstances?
First, Greece needs to fix the internal problems that led to the debt in the first place. Meanwhile, the World needs to give Greece a chance and stop protecting the oligarchs that are to blame for the debt.
In parallel we all need to give the new players a chance. We need to stop calling them names and presupposing their failure. This is most important, and the press and their homemade prophets have much to blame.
Then we can talk again about any forgiveness.
Until then, let us give the new government a chance to fix things.
Yes
Yes
Yes of course, the dept of Greece exists in order for some countries with the latest Greek government to make big business for their good without thinking Greek people. These countries with governments have to pay and not US
Definitely, Yes!
the problem is not the debt in itself but the interests charged on the debt!
OFCOURSE
I think forgiving the Greek debt would create a dangerous precedent in Europe and EU, because Greece is not the only country who owes another country (or EU) large sums of money. We haven’t yet seen any willingness for improvement from the Greek government, who has been in power for a few months now, and it’s focusing only on rhetoric and propagandist purposes (such as the essence of this topic, in itself).
This is not the question? No one in Greece, not even our current left government asks for
Greeks can’t pay back , all should accept that. Their dept is 175.1% of GDP (2013) , that is imposible to pay back .
Corruption and crime : Problem , you should understand Greeks ! You borrow money to corrupt country like Greece or Croatia and those money just disperse . The only thing that is left is a huge debt to poor folk . Poor folk is than just a slave to the banks but rich-corrupt people send money to secret accounts in Switzerland and other countries. Than you have problem that poor people are very angry just because they have to pay back a huge amount of cash and they have to spend life in poverty . EU should help corrupt countries in their fight against corruption and tax evasion , how much in tax has been collected from example Apple and Google in Greece = 0.00 $ . European System of Central Banks should write off debts , arrest gangsters and help poor countries to become free of slavery . http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
BBC – tax evasion : Mr Henry said his $21tn is actually a conservative figure and the true scale could be $32tn. A trillion is 1,000 billion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097
Greek cash is in Swiss banks . The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over ?20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was ?28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
No!
Yes, with application of anticorruption law, in Greece and Europe ;) !
NO.
This must be aeuropean question, no german
Yes on that part caused by lehmann brothers crisis. On the other part partly
Yes of course!!
Good question. Maybe not forgiven but to leave to the Greeks how they will pay out. There are also other ways of payment out. Greek’s historical contribution to the history of Europe is enormous. Maybe some other values should be expressed or mapped to money values. And again this is not the problem of Greece. It is the problem of whole Southern Europe. What was the status before countries entered into EU and Euro zone and what was the trend an what is the status now. Guess there should be more objective view and free of pre-judgements.
Let us be honest that all world disasters in history began and initiated further repression where everybody lost , were started because of hard positions of small ( even non relevant ) elite groups who were not able to sense the harmony and development issues i nthe world. We must know that money and figures in balance sheets of the global systems are just dead numbers and bring no business success nor added value nor profit if processes they feed are processes of desintegration and making enforcements. Desintegration of EU that is happening now has no one any benefit. Someone told me few days ago basing his business on tricks and advnetures fraud that legislation is providing , that he must provide his cach flow. But his cache flow is feeding the business which is full of tricks, making customers non-demanding, passive and unable to act for uplifting the quality. So the customers are forced ( violently ) to give up of own living needs so that someone elses cache flow is provided for continuing bad services, and tricking the customers . This bad for whole community not only for the victims. This way business is supported that give bad services, tricks, use legislation for own egoistic needs, unwilling to change and continue the culture or virus of greed and that greed can be established with tricks in contracts and then offering disaster form of services and bad products. Guess in schools of law and universities about law and legislation there should be more material for studying on community harmony, development issues, growth of values , mathematical theory of games, more mathematics and life sciences concepts. Because the mental genome of legislation now is to support the growth what might be in the seed disputable. So feeding the process of such degenerations is producing more and more chaos. But business and open market is not about the chaos and degenerations. It suppose to lift up values, healthy growth, give precedence to mental health, spiritual health, physical health and homeostasis in resource consumptions and access to resources for further added value and support regeneration cycles. Now cycles are ehxausting …and legislation is feeding processes to accelerate exhaustion instead to balance.
ask germans!
You have to find out why Greece has so much debt, then you re arrange the system accordingly to function economically, a whole new economical system is needed which would include compulsory recycling and the elimination of the reasons behind the debt starting with the biggest problems first, the reasons causing the debt, until this is worked out accurately I would disagree with bail outs and cancellation of debts because the same thing will happen again and again and again.
YES (Y) YES (Y) YES but in Greece HEALTH and EDUCATION have complex problems :( Lying, theft, prostitution, trafficking, murder :( the lack of money, the lack of drinking water, the lack of electricity, the lack of old original documents, and sale of every moral value, :( causing DESTRUCTION and DEATH of the INDIVIDUAL, SOCIETY and NATURE , and it must STOP here and now :(
Definitely,yes ,we are in europe as well as the germany
Yes since it is not real
No…
Yes … As it forgiving in Germany at 1953 AND GREECE SIGN FOR IT !!!!!!!
Yes!
The idea has been dropped. Forget it. Without deep reforms Greece would be in over its head again in 5 years.
For many years Europe knew about the bad economic situation in Greece.However they continued lending money to Greek governments in order to buy weapons from German,French and American Weapon Industries.They also allow Greece to get into the Eurozone although they knew about the false economic statistics.They allowed European companies such as Siemens to give money to Greek politicians in order to have them under control.They forced us to accept an institution as IMF to enter in Europe although they knew that it was an institution with bad results in any country it tried to help.These results were unemployment,poverty and instability.The same happened in Greece.Their only purpose was to save German and French Banks and so they lent us money claiming that it was for the recovery of the Greek economy.They forced Greece to take ineffective measures which increased the debt,unemployment and they make the 30% of Greek people poor!Although these institutions said that it was a bad recipe for Greek people they insist to force the new government with the blackmail of bankruptcy to continue the same policy with one purpose,to punish the Greek people.More than half a million people lost their jobs,more than 4500 people suicided,some children in schools are starving and freezing.Additionally the Greek debt was increased and nothing seems that the economic figures will become better!
About the issue of the German War Compensation,it is clear that Germans must compensate both the Greek State and the relatives of the victims for the disaster they left behind after the Second World War.However I believe that this is a different matter which the Greek government have to deal with that after the discussion about the Greek debt.But if the issue is if the Greek debt dshould be forgiven as German debt was in 1953, the answer is that it is unfair for the Greek victims to close this moral matter in such a way and to give forgiven to Greek politicians and the politicians and to the European institution’s failure to deal with that problem!
Πες τα βρε πατριωτη.Πες τα.Αφου αυτοι μας δανειζαν.Δεν ηξεραν οτι το χρεος αυξανεται.ΟΙ Ευρωπαιοι μας πιεζαν να μπουμε στο ευρο.
Delete the debt of all south EU countries and instead have the ‘golden boys’ of the Northern Banks pay them. Have an EU where each citizen has equal rights, benefits and oportunities regardless of where they live. Another option is to have a union without Germany. History shows that Germany cannot co-exist with its European neighbours. A union without the Germans can be the solution if everything else fails.
you have finally to think as Europe as a community, not as a colony of barbarian northern countries.. Eventually considering that mediterranean sea is as european as nordic countries.. so yes, greek debt should be forgiven.. especially now that they have a serious government.. keeping in mind that germany accepted to be fooled by samaras for ages!
I think 5 yrs is extremely optimistic Alec Mally. It would be closer to 3-4 months. Even with a 100% write off, the deficit would remain, Greece would still not be able to access financing at workable rates, and we would quite simply run out of cash. Capital flight would continue, and tax income would continue to decline. At this point, discussions on debt are completely irrelevant – we need to find a solution for the Greek state and economy to function efficiently and effectively. The hyper taxation-driven “austerity” model clearly doesn’t work – we need to find the right mix of public sector and regulatory reform, coupled with investments to enable economic growth.
No.
Yes, a common European fiscal policy should be developed, if we want to live in Europe as a nation
No!! The “Greeks” like to forget many things as long as it suits their interests but always remember the untrue!!
Yes, before makes agreements with China
NO…Merkel never forgiven …
End of Europe !!!!
Noooo!
Yes
No. They will make more debt and wait to be forgiven again. Other countries struggle to pay their depts. What makes Greeks so special?
Yeah right. Why should it be?
Yes, not only for Greece but also for all the countries of Europe. This is a depth between banks not between people.
nop, but germany could pay their debt. would make things a whole lot easier
definitely yes! the debt should be frgiven to help Greece stand again on its feet and perpetuate growth out of a period of prolonged and harmful recession!
People are so obtuse… The issue here is not Greek debt, but it is the precedence of forgetting debt when it comes to the Spanish, Portuguese and Italians, or any other state with mass amounts of debt. It’s far more serious if Spain wrote off its debt than if Greece did.
well…… things were different in 1953, dishonest governments have caused the current crisis plus the folks in Brussels should have studied these countries more closely before giving them the tick to become members in the first place – the Euro was an experiment that has gone horribly wrong…
FORGIVEN? Bad word choice.
By WHOM? How patronizing you Hawks!
Never
never
Yes, for crying out loud. It’s impossible to pay back, Greece, Portugal, perhaps even Ireland. Give these countries a fresh start and start coordinating fiscal policies in Brussels, it will happen again if we continue to think of the EU as 28 competing economies and not a huge ecnomic system competing against other players.
Yes
What a question! Did we ask the same question for France in 1929 or for Germany post WWII? Specially for Germany! That took the deposits of all occupied countries and obliged Greece to lose all her deposits of several billion USD. Not only the loan of Greece should be forgiven but the German loan should be also claimed back! Enough is enough with Greece being the lab of political change in Europe against austerity
Antnio Jorge Silva
I. Wish My. Debt. Was. Forgiven …. No..
Yes a ONE time deal only.
WHY not is the question ?? If its good for others, why is it not good for Greece ?? Keep in mind Germany not only had its debt forgiven, but had that debt forgiven after destorying Europe and killing millions of Europeans, Greece has never committed any crimes of any sort, yet its treated like some criminal state, sad to see just how many racist small minded morons there are out ther.
No
If things keep going the way they are going with Greece paying back monies owed there will be not problem because more people are dying, they can not afford the medication they need, far less babies being born, couples can not afford them. There will be no Greek population left to pay back the loan Germany will have killed a nation without a war
In my view, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Crete etc all need help as us Northern Europeans all helped to make them dependant on tourism. Germany should not bare this weight alone.
Crete is an Island in Greece .Not a country.
No, they can renegotiate their debt, take the hit on their credit ratings and learn to live within their means. Otherwise this will continue to repeat itself in the future.
Yes, Germain it is not exemple for nobody!
Yes. Overcrediting by banks in the last decades is a general problem destroying economy worldwide by now.
1953 Germany came out of WW2 , Greece from 2004-2011 had a “PARTY” with Primary Balance Sheet in Deficit 145 billion / 8 years (at a G.D.P of ~ 200 bn.)……..Do you compare-relate WW2 with “THE PARTY”??…..other’speople money also!!!…..xaxaxaxa. No way. Find the loan money!!!…….
We all know what happened when europe didn’t forgive the dept created during the WWI to the Germans.
Why Should We? We Want What Is Ours By Right !!!! If I get a loan and do not pay The Bank Takes what`s His In No Time At All !!
German debt was not forgiven because of people getting in pension at 50 or rich people to buy Porsche instead of paying taxes…
Yes
Forgiven of what?I do not remeber Greece starting a war.
No
If you do, give that much money to Bulgarians, the true descendents of Europe s oldest race and culture. We want to live well, like the Greeks, too!
“The true descendents of Europe s oldest race and culture”: are you joking? LOL
True descendant of Europe. I think you listened to this for too long and it’s doing you harm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fn36l_z3WY
Greece has always played with Muscovy and Moscow is dangerous
no
From a moral perspective, it would be best to forgive the Greek debts. But the problem is that this is not really about morals, despite all the political posturing. It is a fallacy to portray this issue as the ‘small guy’ against the ‘rich banks’, as the latter is an aggregate of many ‘small guys’ elsewhere in Europe whose savings are now tied up with the Greek debt.
Greece has not been well served by its politicians over the past decades and the ingrained irresponsible behaviour is still there. Even today’s Tsipras government is seeking populistic ‘quick fixes’ of questionable morality, e.g. wasting time flirting with Putin, or raising the unrelated topic of war reparations (70 years after the war? How cynical…) rather than working with potential partners to really find a creative and viable ‘growth-focused’ solution that could catapult Greece out of the current mess.
Debt forgiveness in some shape could be part of such a solution. But on its own, without a different way of behaving, it is useless.
Where are the Greek nation-building politicians who can inspire the trust of both the Greeks themselves and Greece’s European partners to allow really creative solutions to be found?
It’s too easy to assume the indignant role of the victim and blame Germany, the Troika, the Euro, capitalism, etc. If that’s all the current crop of Greek politicians have on offer, it is a real tragedy for the country and its suffering population.
Why did they ask for the last part of loan already then claiming that they will not repay? And why should we, Latvians, have repaid the loan just to see now that it is possible to be a freerider and to get by with this?
Greek debt should be forgiven as Germany’s damages towards Greece or worse towards the HUMANITY during World War II, were too severe and they were forgiven!
First,to be examined.private banks deficit,public insurance money gone to stockmarket crisis,submarines payed but not delivered(2 not delivered and one is overheating)olymbic games money,all of these have to be examined.second,debt payback has to be in a way that is not ruining the economy.and last we must see the interest rates.if they are legal(and moral)or not.
No
Yes!
Hell Yes !
No way
Yes!
No! Greece brought all this onto itself. The citizens should find who was responsible for lack of seriousness in steering the country on the right track and put them in jail.
Of course not! The incentives structure would be horrible!!!
Toxic analogy…
Hell yeah!
The Greek debt was not made by the Greek people, was made by politicians and big banks, and now they’re sending the Bill to pay to the wrong people, like in other countries..
How do you collect from one who does not pay? This question is out of place. Greece won’t pay their debt, no matter what EU decides. The real question is who’s going to take the loss of their bad debts.
All debt worldwide should be forgiven. Poverty is created by the avarice of a few.
Yes. The humanitarian and sanitary crisis is huge. The extermination of a nation by banks is happening. The Greek debt was made by big international banks, so banks should pay and not citizens. The loss should affect banks who caused it and their “appetite”.
siamo un unione di Stati e dobbiamo aiutarci a vicenda se n che Europa ?
No!
..yes!
If Greece will get special treatment then every third world country that’s part of the European Union should also get it. Or are the Greeks that special?
It should be counter-calculated to the debts of Germany to Greece.
any national debt should be erased in EU and money creation should belong to ECB only, not to private banks .
So war is the same as bad fiscal/economic policy. If that is true, then sure go ahead and forgive greek debt otherwise I guess it’s pretty obvious.
Also I never seen anyone against ‘Greek people’ in fact , at least from what I have seen, most EU citizens want everyone to be well, however it comes down to
how can the EU forgive it’s bad boy without breaking the rules it set out of the rest of the world and when do the greeks understand that we need to be fair above all.
They should pay back money borrowed and apologise for killing Socrates
off course
bvio. nem era necessrio perguntarem.
os alemes comearam a guerra e no final foram os mais beneficiados! ridculo.
if I borrow money from others, will they erase my debt just because I am not able to pay?
Yes it fucking should ! Or the european utopy only works one way ?!
Yes 100% + interest
Shared
Germany should start following their own rule: pay the debt
It should be forgiven, the German one was forgiven, they seem to have forgotten.
Yes!
You can’t sell any milk of you slaughter your cow.
If the German led EU coalition is over-charging for debts owed by Greece and the other European countries should they not take a leaf out of their own view of “Bonus Payments” and get the interest down to a manageable percentage. Also to use the Marshall Plan figures they should not be paying more than 3% of GDP.
The solution (in 1953) for Germany was that they should only pay for debts out of its trade surplus, and any repayments were limited to 3% of exports earnings every year. This meant those countries that were owed debt had to buy West German exports in order to be paid. It meant West Germany would only pay from genuine earnings, without recourse to new loans. And it meant Germany’s creditors had an interest in the country growing and its economy thriving. Why isn’t this being seen as a major clause in the current negotiations?
In contrast to the 3% limit on German debt payments, today the IMF and World Bank regard debt payments of up to 15-25% of export revenues as being “sustainable” for impoverished countries. The Greek government’s foreign debt payments are around 30% of exports.
Do we need a pro-Soviet country just across the water from Turkey and close to Cyprus who have now allowed Russia to make use of their ports. No, But if we do not sort out the Greek debt soon it will come. Possibly soon after Italy will experience additional problems with its close borders to unstable parts of North Africa. This is not rumour-mongering or any form of fear spreading but a reminder of what Poverty and deprivation can cause. Look at Germany in 1934 who still owed debt from 1918. Greece has not started a war in modern times, and is unlikely to do so now, but her new allies might think differently.
Ultimately the Greek Spanish Italian Portuguese debts should be written off as bad debts and allow all to return to to respecteely Drachma Peseta Lira and Escudo or remain with the Euro as the people of the individual sovereign states wish enabling the countries to re establish theirselves and economies with the option that when they can actually genuinely afford to pay some back to sovereign state prerogative with the carrot of improved credit ratings on attempting to do so.
The two alternatives as I see it are force ever more difficult humiliating austerity on them forcing defaults on the loans breaking the economies ultimately the Titanic effect will sink the European zone!
Alternatively Sovereign States be allowed to print Euro’s as they need to remain Peaceful lawful and ordered and to enable in people’s pockets spending money to regenerate business the “feel good factor” and bonafide prosperity through the States
A relatively minor ‘debt-management’ issue threatens to destabilize the West! Because the West is riddled with factions that actively engage, contribute massively towards erosion of Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage, the fabric from which the West wove it’s cloth, the glue that binds Western democratic adherence towards common civilizational principles first developed in ancient Athens and Rome. Allow that to proceed, I mean, erode the Western worlds cultural-historical narrative. Erode cultural-heritage. Erode Western civil societies common understandings of shared common heritage – now sit back and watch the Western worlds cultural-foundations crumble.
Western culture, Western civilization – What does it mean to You!
For the first time ever in the history of the West…Greece is being outcast as being somewhat different, being Maverick, following different path, from path laid down by Euro-Atlantic economic structures of the USA, EU and NATO, collectively known as the ‘West’. Greek (economic) interests diverge from Western ones! Greece cannot develop, progress or go forward in Western fold, on Merkel-Schaubles Austerity diktats which have impoverished the Hellenic Nation and ruined the Greek economy.
The cradle of Western Civilization is moving East whilst some Eastern-European countries that were once under (CCCP) USSR domination are moving West.
The West lost it’s way long time ago! The catalyst that binds Western Nations together, to common civilizational (democratic) principles…ideals and core values first developed in ancient Athens and Rome, eroded, their value, their meaning, diminished.
The West has become dog eat dog place, no longer a place for ‘like-minded’ peoples but a place where fractious groupings engage actively in infighting, and economic warfare against own kind. Proof is the total destruction of Hellenic Republics National economy – Western-Style!
Nope.
It is clear that such debt can never be repaid and our European partners want to throw more on us in the form of a third bail out… So yes, if not full forgiveness then at least partial one.. If Germany got it after destroying Europe, why not Greece?
Of course not! It will just encourage other countries to increase irresponsible spending, winning elections this way, thinking tht if Greece has been forgiven, why shouldn’t they?
Yes.
.
For the sake of the antidemocratic EU and the idiotic Euro they will be forgiven and the tax payer’s in the rest of the Eurozone will pay for it.
Share the currency, share the debt, share the misery.
we can always initiate ww2 reparations from germany and all allies
No can do. Why shouldn’t Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy do the same, then?
Personally i dont want my debts to be forgiven(even though they should as we follow the eu capitalist policy all those years).Taking back from germany all the state gold and money stolen from the greek state in ww2 will be fine
?es because never paid 1 euro to GREECE.All paid huge gains of market vultures.Greece paid regularly the huge interest on it.
bloody right! what’s sauce for the goose….
Partly yes
If it were to be then there would be no impetus to structurally and politically reform Greece. The answer is no, for now. Perhaps with the advent of such reforms the answer could be yes.7
No
Yes…
It would just fuel up Podemos, UKIP, le pen, or jobbik
EU should find out who took these loans bc simple people of Greece didn’t take any money. These money whent to banks and politicians. So, what do you mean by forgiving the debt to Greece?
The problem is that some debts reached a value where either the States adopt austerity for many decades, while, in the same european union, others take profit of this union (fiscal policies in Netherlands, Luxemburg, Austria, agricultural and aeronautical policies for France, automobile industry in Germany, …), or there should be a new equilibrium point so that we don’t have part of Europe completely tied to poverty for decades.
If we continue to think in terms of advantages of a small group of states, then we forget that the world is not only Europe and those winning in here will suffer globally if Europe does not act as a block with 300 million people, and not only 4-5 countries with 150-200 million
They should recognize another Holocaust…….
Actually European union have to pay for crimes against humanity in Greece. The laws that they established in my country , are out of sense. ..
nope !!!
Yes, it should. And also should change how it works Europe Union
There is no point forgiving the dept until the circumstances that caused it are addressed or else the country will be in exactly the same position in 10 years with the added knowledge that other countries will cover any money that Greece is lent.
No! But where are the culprits? Do we have names? I am sure we do! But are we just throwing our hands up in the air and saying “let the people pay”? If so, which I believe is what is happening, then this whole mess is wrong and needs to be reevaluated for the sake of dignity, transparency and honesty!
Again the same? Ofc
I am not sure about the German debt what is about… but I believe there is no Greek debt ….it is European one!!??? Not sure how our politicians brought us in this point!! ???? They are ingredable…. all of them!! ??? ;)
Yes of course! Greece has given so much to the world, it’s about time we gave her something back.
Yes
Yes…
yes! And Portugal debt too.
Yes, definitely.
We’d still have all the things this world has, even if there was no debt. We made debt as a tool for economic regulation so that fair was fair and people got their just dues for services rendered and/or goods provided.
Debt now seems to have some completely different purpose, mostly to prevent money from being equally distributed. Personally I don’t see that as a good purpose. Tools that have lost their purpose are a good candidates for replacement.
But clearly if you believe debt is a good thing for human society and is totally serving its purpose then you’re not going to want to see Greece’s debt forgiven because post WW2 Germany did. That’s apples to oranges.
what kind of debt they have? From where that “money” came? There must be a tabala rasa in debts around the world. This “debt” is very unfair. E.G Hungary got 1 billion dollar in 1977-78, because of the global crisis of capitalism.. Untill 2009 hungary paid 75(!) times back this debt, in a way, that hungary have to pay this summe in the next 30 years 120 more. This is not a debt, this is a slavery. …this is capitalism.
well ,you should consider that the debt was raised since the previous greek goverments followed your austerity measures.Your policies were all wrong,you sentenced Greek people to misery ,your responsible for thousands of suicides,hundreds of thousands imigrations ,for destroying the dreams of my generations .In the same time,speculators like the deutsche bank have earned huge profits ,germany’s economy has earned billions of euros and the fascists partied are having a raise in the whole europe.Becouse you are so fascistis ,you burreacrats from bruxxels that you are sitting comfortable in your 5 -6 figure salaries,you destroyed european union…
Yes
???????? ???????!
No because then other countries should expect the same. Ireland , Portugal Cyprus and so on will demand the same and then any country could endebt till she pill amazing debts and expect to be release from them.
It should be forgiven partially enough to favour restart. Europe has been built on an idea od common progress, and stronger nations, especially Germany, should not stop this progress for the sake of ‘bailout correctness’. I think it would not be a metter of ‘forgiving’ anyone, but go on united and together
we hope no
there is a great concern that most of the Greek debt it might proved odious that is there is a committee set up by the Greek parliament for debt auditing I suggest other countries such as Ireland Portugal and Spain to do the same
No
What about the creditors? Shall they lose their money?
of course shoul be, german is the most responsible for the greak debt and for the all caotic economie in Europe.
No.
Should everyones debt get forgiven?
Yes
forgive the debts of all countries
No
Let the Dutch pay another 200 million and let’s hug the Greek
YESSSSSS!
This is not the way. The right thing is that Germany has to pay back what they own to Greece since WW2 and from this money to pay back what we own to the all country’s they gave us a loan. So this is the right and fair way and no one loose money.
No.
Yes! Forgive the greek debt
yes, of course!!!
Yes, please :-)
No, it should not. I do think however it should be audited to see what is legitimate debt and what is not. And those who caused the ilegitimate debt be held responsible for it. I also think the interest on the debt should be cero or very low. It is not responsible for Europe to drown states in interest rates as high as some countries have had to pay, and are paying, during this economic crisis. My country paid over 40 billion ? in interest alone this year. That money could have gone to better the lives of it’s citizens. 40 billion ? in interest alone, without reducing one cent of principal. It is an abuse and inmoral of the EU to allow this.
Gues we have no choice, EU should help countries in need.
It is highly ironic that while all the Europeans forgave German Debt that was created to produce the bombs and bullets that killed them but they will not do it for Greeks who got the money to save THEIR banks, to buy THEIR weapons, to buy THEIR cars and finally yes some stole that money to live a fancy life ….. WAKE UP EU … If Greece goes down what do you think will happen to you ?
No, Nein, ??, NON !!!
No
Absolutely… Why Do NewGermans demand something that THEY NEVER PAYED BACK TO HUMANITY?
Do they forget what they stole from the Greek People their ancestors the Nazis?
Put them down to read history of II WORLD WAR!
Again?
should everybody’s debt be forgiven?! like.
No, Greeks now get more social security and minimum wage is much higher than here, but we take responsibility for our actions and loans.
Yes, please! Give them a chance “..
What the EU should represent is JUSTICE and EQUALITY between its members. If you can forgive debts from a “powerful” country such as Germany, why not do it with a country that suffered from it? I still cannot understand how people generalize the Greek community as lazy and corrupt, as if, the entire population runs the country..
It is arrogant to think that one country is “better” from another just because of its economic/political system is better that another. If that was the deal, half the members in EU shouldn’t be in from the first place..
Yes, it should be !
There is nothing to forgive. The “lenders” have already taken their money back x6 times. Plus they never had the money that they “lended”. It is all leverage. Plus it is all illegal. Well… almost all. Apparently over 80% of it… they are auditing it as we speak.
What about the others?Portugal.Ireland.Spain.Italy and so on?Dont they have the same rigth?Dont they soffer whith austerity too?
Yes, now! Stop losing time
Yes it should! Banks earn billions on the greek debst and the back of Greek workers, it is fully immoral! Solidarity from Germany with the greek people <3
I should say yes ist int enough 7000+ suicides how many people must die or lose their jobs in this crazy debtocracy game?
Yes!
No. You are to blame for introducing euro even though you lied about economic figures and took the consequences. Small counties around Europe are paying and paid it back but somehow Greeks don’t feel responsible. So yeah. No!
I can’t believe that the EU are just standing by and watching the Greeks sink! What is the EU for? Of course it should forgive the debt then Greece can get back on track.
Yes and No
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! otherwise German need to pay first her debt in Greece!!!!
Yes agaun and again yes
This is not a good question as Greeks never asked their depth to be …forgiven !!! The fact that all the nations gave to Germany more than one chance to recover doesn’t mean that they also forgive Nazis !!
Yes!
No. Greece has been rescued 2 times. Now are paying less interest than Germany, and have the double time to pay it (16 years vs 8 of Germany). Their debt is more cheaper and for more time than one of the more stable economy in the EU. About the german debt in the wwii, it was the 10% of the GDP (20% if you count the Marshall Plan); the greece debt is the 175% of the GDP. The greek government only knows how to spend, and nothing about how to save.
Germany’s was !
It’s not really 1953 at all any more?
All the countries knows as PIGS should be United and be allowed to reestructure the debt. As it goes no One will be able to pay it and in a short time All the economies will be so depressed that the european dream will be finished.
I want to have my debt forgiven too! I never saved up but borrowed a lot of money and spend it all. So now I’m in trouble and I think that those who were stupid enough to lend me money in the first place are to blame, so they will have to pay again…
Yes!
Yes, or Germany should pay Greece as well
And who will pay back the countries giving them the loans ? We get them back from your super paid salaries ?
Yes, and not only Greece, but Portugal and others too.
The “debt” is only a way to exploit poor people out of their dignity and human rights (like a Home, food or health).
Actually given how unfair is the banking/money/debt system is it should be rethinked in large scale…
No I’m sorry
Yes
Ja
Si
I wished my lone was forgiven. But. I am a. Men. And payed back every cent of it….stop talking about the past. Is over.. Really Men. Stik to the. Agreements …………
Yes, the greeks are not to blame for its bankers.
Hum… it already was…. a considerable percentage
Yes
No,No,No or else they will have to do the same to Portugal,and…….
Greece is not more or less than any Country of Europe!!!!!!!!
No
What about Portugal Spain and Ireland then?
Forgive to leave rich people avoiding paying taxes and going in pension at 50?! No thanks.
No, our debt should not be waived. However, neither should be the debt of the German state towards Greece since Germany stole all God reserves greece has at that time and never gave an ounce of it back.
Definitely NO.
Yes, it is dragging the EU down just to favour banks.
No why should it be forgiven their causing an international crisis
Is there a choice?
no
Yes. All greek debt should be deleted.
No because it’s a get out for the disastrous Euro and hides the real problem of the EU which cannot be an economic area with a single currency
Definitely yes. Germany is stealing and controlling al european countries as they want to.
Avrupa’n?n ??mar?k,haylaz ve tembel ocu?u Yunanistan.
Definitely! However, it seems not all German debt was forgiven….only a portion was.
as an Irish person I think you should be helped but what about your reforms – like we had to do,, why do you raise the minimum wage when countries like estonia and latvia have next to nothing but they dont complain, find some good leaders who will show progress and put you back on track, us Irish blame ourselves for getting into trouble, why cant you accept some responsibility.
How many times u asked this question
Definitely Yes. This crises and it’s consequences would be worse for both Greece and EU
MOST PEOPLE DONT KNOW THIS BUT GERMAN DEBT WAS “FORGIVEN” because the US and Briton and France took (stole) patents and products invented and developed in Germany worth much more than all the debt at the end of WW2. These inventions triggered an economic boom in the US. Greek millionaires have refused to pay tax which is why Greece has accumulated so much debt. Germany has already written off billions in Greek debt. One has to look at all the facts !!!
No, BUT Greece should be allowed to invest what is in the plus side of the budget. It comes logical that only cuts and austerity are drying out Greece ability of paying the debt. So No, the debts have to be paid, but Yes, EU must give the possibility to do so.
No.
there are no solidarity between member states
Better yet to bring an end to national debt. Having a european bank administering should make the debt european rather than national. It would be a leap towards a unification of Europe and would aid in fighting corruption as well as providing for a stable economic enviroment for every european state.
What Greece needs is re-structuring of the government and attitude, not forgiveness. Nationalize profitable industry, restructure goverment, control banking, invest in education.
YES! Aside from the moral and historical reasons that Germans must come to grips to, debt forgiveness is an entirely legal principal and it will stabilize both Greece and the Eurozone! This is not to say that forgiveness should not come without any strings, as Greece needs to finish the process of dealing with the overinflated government set up by the american run Junta in the 70s, but all around Greece will never recover unless its people are given a chance to get back on their feet
Never: they owe Italy 40 bln euros, which we would definitely need. Furthermore, they’re asking the money back for WWII damage, therefore they’re not credible
I would say “Yes” for the sake of the badly-led Greek people. Certain Europe countries pushed the Euro, so they should accept that a common currency is rather like a marriage: not just for the good times. So there comes a duty to help a “partner” during bad times. We don’t really hear much about that point of view…
Yes
My neighbor is a tobacco farmer in kor, albania and they havent gotten paid in 1 year from the greek because greece has no money… They shouldnt be forgiven
No, debt is debt they should pay till the last cent. When they were spending 15 salaries a year everything was ok. Wake up Greece dolce vita has ended!
Yes for all Southern countries that were exploited
Yes
Why make a country’s whole population pay for the corrupt elite’s exploitations?
They should do it , cause we can have in mind that Germany has made millions cause to the crisis in EU specialy by having Hellas to have the most financial debt, that they caused.
All the countries have debt…the question is who they have to pay???hmm….perhaps another planet….check the debt of each country….to whom??? I dont know…but surely they own much more than Greece
Greece will inevitably default, forgiven or otherwise. Euro is pointless exercise.
It should coexist in EU both the two princiles of responsibility and solidarity. In addition part of the Greek debt comes from systemic EU and the international banking sector deficiencies. For the above reasons at least half of the Greek debt must be deleted in order Greece and EU to enter in a new process of eurozone stability and sustainable development.
The problem is. ..european.the crisis is european and the solution must be european…austerity measures must be erased, debts will never be paid anyway from wherever they come, bureaucracy from Brussels and its partners must be realistic and focused on the welfare and wellbeing of the citizens and not the voracious banks .
Certainly not. Every nation must find the real thruth behind every chaotic matter. Now greeks simply like to once again change the game for solely their benefits. Fair? Nope.
Why not, if Debt aren’t officially canceled!?!? Any way we must live in real life but not Utopia economy!!! Some body must pay who spend the money without thinking about it but not same labour people!!!
Of course it should…
the good question will be, is it legitimate to talk about debt erasure as in 1953, the response should be yes, the word forgiven is badly used here, part of the debt is related to the souper profit of some that have taken in advantage a country to get even more money and there people that are dying instead,
Yes
No
If we do, the Greeks will be clamoring for more debt forgiveness once their country is in the hole again! They love to and think they deserve to live beyond their means!
Definitely and utterly YES. Greece cannot continue funding an impossible debt. If Greece exits the Euro it will be an UTTER FAILURE OF THE EUROZONE that will prove that has failed to manage and monitor a Eurozone member’s macroeconomic performance. Why the EU closed their eyes when Greece was heavily indebted? Maybe because a fiscal discipline is a nice way to control assets?…Otherwise, Germany should give a very good reason why on earth they deserved a haircut after killing half of Europe in WWII and Greece does not deserve to take a breath after all to develop its economy to PAY its dues. What is happening now its a pure extortion with the ECB blackmailing Greece with the T-bills. It is the business of EU to solve this. Not Greece’s. We Greeks have given everything we could in this. There is NO MORE. Very simple..
Definitely and utterly YES. Greece cannot continue funding an impossible debt. If Greece exits the Euro it will be an UTTER FAILURE OF THE EUROZONE that will prove that has failed to manage and monitor a Eurozone member’s macroeconomic performance. Why the EU closed their eyes when Greece was heavily indebted? Maybe because a fiscal discipline is a nice way to control assets?…Otherwise, Germany should give a very good reason why on earth they deserved a haircut after killing half of Europe in WWII and Greece does not deserve to take a breath after all to develop its economy to PAY its dues. What is happening now its a pure extortion with the ECB blackmailing Greece with the T-bills. It is the business of EU to solve this. Not Greece’s. We Greeks have given everything we could in this. There is NO MORE. Very simple..
And as I see this post is full of illiterate economically populists that do not know what they do not know about Greece’s debt and they comment in the same mediocre way an ignorant would do – with a ‘no-no’ answer. Just a few details FYI. Portugal, Ireland and Spain borrowed and SPENT 20-15 bn euro each. Greece borrowed and spent so far 150 bn to bailout GERMAN BANKS that bought the Greek bonds. Normally Greece SHOULD NOT HAVE taken the 2012 loan to pay the bonds of GERMANY and tell the German Banks “its your bloody business”. But unfortunately Greece did the “right” thing for Germans and not for her: it took 150bn euro to pay the GERMAN & FRENCH banks. Otherwise it would be YOUR countries now under fiscal discipline….and not Greece. We could afford paying loans till 2011. Now those loans are IMPOSSIBLE TO PAY BACK. But of course Germans and other Europeans do not care…..Banks are saved and they just kick Greeks in their butt. Right? Well just wait and see what will happen if the EU does not lend money to Greece or does not do a GENEROUS HAIRCUT in the summer: your bonds, in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany will skyrocket and nobody will buy them. Prepare for a CRISIS IN YOUR COUNTRIES THIS SUMMER until end of 2015 if EU is not cutting generously the Greek debt.
And as I see this post is full of illiterate economically populists that do not know what they do not know about Greece’s debt and they comment in the same mediocre way an ignorant would do – with a ‘no-no’ answer. Just a few details FYI. Portugal, Ireland and Spain borrowed and SPENT 20-15 bn euro each. Greece borrowed and spent so far 150 bn to bailout GERMAN BANKS that bought the Greek bonds. Normally Greece SHOULD NOT HAVE taken the 2012 loan to pay the bonds of GERMANY and tell the German Banks “its your bloody business”. But unfortunately Greece did the “right” thing for Germans and not for her: it took 150bn euro to pay the GERMAN & FRENCH banks. Otherwise it would be YOUR countries now under fiscal discipline….and not Greece. We could afford paying loans till 2011. Now those loans are IMPOSSIBLE TO PAY BACK. But of course Germans and other Europeans do not care…..Banks are saved and they just kick Greeks in their butt. Right? Well just wait and see what will happen if the EU does not lend money to Greece or does not do a GENEROUS HAIRCUT in the summer: your bonds, in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany will skyrocket and nobody will buy them. Prepare for a CRISIS IN YOUR COUNTRIES THIS SUMMER until end of 2015 if EU is not cutting generously the Greek debt.
croatian too
croatian too
What I don’t understand is why Greece received so much money. How has this loan approved?
What I don’t understand is why Greece received so much money. How has this loan approved?
YES! From Portugal
YES! From Portugal
Yes (a part of it as German debt after WW2) and also for all the other countries that in WW2 Germany took and destroy everything and never paid back after the war.
Again? I mean, no disrespect for my thracian brothers, but unless they elect a proper government, no forgiveness should be allowed.
?es why not, remember germany’s dept
yes, why not?
yes
YES but they should allow EU police to investigate their corruption . They should destroy their corruption and crime otherwise in just 15 Years time situation is going to be similar . Greeks can’t pay back , all should accept that. Their dept is 175.1% of GDP (2013) , that is imposible to pay back .
Corruption and crime : Problem , you should understand Greeks ! You borrow money to corrupt country like Greece or Croatia and those money just disperse . The only thing that is left is a huge debt to poor folk . Poor folk is than just a slave to the banks but rich-corrupt people send money to secret accounts in Switzerland and other countries. Than you have problem that poor people are very angry just because they have to pay back a huge amount of cash and they have to spend life in poverty . EU should help corrupt countries in their fight against corruption and tax evasion , how much in tax has been collected from example Apple and Google in Greece = 0.00 $ . European System of Central Banks should write off debts , arrest gangsters and help poor countries to become free of slavery . http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
BBC – tax evasion : Mr Henry said his $21tn is actually a conservative figure and the true scale could be $32tn. A trillion is 1,000 billion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097
Greek cash is in Swiss banks . The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over ?20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was ?28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
Yes
If yes, so should others
If Germany pays for all their destruction during the second world war
Quand la Grce va t’elle sortir de l’Europe. .?? elle ne respecte pas ses engagements sociaux / financiers ..
Pourquoi les grecs ne paient ils pas d’impts ?? Aucun contrle sur la fuite des capitaux l’tranger. .!!
Yes!
No and Nooooo
I don’t think so!
Of course should be forgiven , the German one was forvgiven, after the world war.
Yes of course.
Yes, against a clear reform plan.
The german debt wasn’t forgiven – Germany didn’t pay yet
NO, of course
At least, it should be freeze (only the interest payment).
Depends…
I think they need good goals in long terms and al need to focus.And we do need to give everyone a chance to build a strong building/ base again…
Yes, why not…..Germany should pay Romania the debs also..
Not for given, but forgotten.
Why don’t Germany use it’s almost illegal surplus to cover part of Greece debt? In the financial sector is already known that the eurozone is a mess out of control
Of course.
Part of the answer: please consider the policians who stole public money, in all countries, as common criminals, and let the debt this created be considered their personal, not a state’s.
Yes-
Yes , without a second thought .
No, it was not only Germany that gave Greece the money. We gave Greece the money and we want it BACK, not fair on the countries that made the sacrifices and adjusted, Greece should do the same
In my opinion public debt is nothing but just an indicator of how much a country spent in term of investment, and not how well the national economy is getting. As an example, Japan (3rd economy of the world)’s national debt is about 240% of the national incomes, while Greece’s is “only” 95%.
Greece needs actually two things for its economy to get better : in one hand growth, through consumption. The only way to feed State bank and to create jobs. On the other hand Greece needs efficient politicians to well control this growth and find a way to make those incomes become investments. This control of money and taxes is the main problem here. Yet the new kinda social government do not seems that bad for me, isn’t it ? Afroditi Astreinidi-Blandin
Yes
NO.
As German debt in 1953: NO.
In another way: could be.
?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????. ? ????? ? ??????. ? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????????? ? ?? ??? ???? ????????. ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ????….???? ??? ???????? ?? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ??? ??? ?? ???????? ??? ???? ???…..???? ?? ????……
YES
Yes, but only Germany must pay !!!
Yes………
Yes………
Why not ? Only problem is …what then ? And I will go against the grain that seems to place all fault with the corrupt politicians .It is the citizens of Greece who are the corrupt ones and if such a magnanimous gesture were to be made ,what makes you think that they will not revert to living far above their means , knowing that some years down the road on a similar occasion Europe will come to the rescue
Never.
NO ; greek took bad habits and benefit a lot from EU already
No, it is setting a horrible precedent for how countries manage their finances – just do it bad enough, and eventually we will just let it all go.
Greece needs to fundamentally rethink and restructure its economy, and just rewarding decades of terrible mismanagement, corruption, and a culture of tax evasion like this is not the way to do it.
.
No, they should stay in the Eurozone and default, let the other countries in the Eurozone pay off their debts.
Share the currency, share the misery.
It’s only fair …
Of course it should! Not doing it would be immoral. The taxes should go to school and education, not to the banks.
The question is who produced the debt?
Firstly because, in my opinion, all the debt produced by interest on the interest should be illegal (is what organized crime, and many bank, do).
Secondly, why I as a citizen should pay the debt produced by a bank? or a multinational? Or the debt produced by a bad administrator of a public institution?
I should pay debt produced by expenditure the government produced for me, or the interest of my nation: public health sistem, public transportation, justice, police and army, public theatre and schools, public research….
and Why should the debt produced by fews be paid by many?
This is the question.
And our money? And those who paid-Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Spain? A precedent
Yes why not? If not that is a discrimination
Money vs currency
First we learn what’s going on then we can form opinions, everything is so true to our society, we all know how they’ve used us. https://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FDyV0OfU3-FU&h=YAQE520Yk&enc=AZNpbho4WjTBt87HG4hHVkxoKsYnRxbMlaKU6iOp7IjvKbksSnc3FQ_-rSZ14vnCD2gURrmIYHGGTxI7yAXpCRta6LnBHGnlK_Pgp-NHjBE62GRdmtY-aMqCbc1GQiJcaVQ&s=1
Paying the debt as it is would only drain the only resources that could be reinvested today in Greece. Everybody that can pay only the debt would never rise his situation. He can just survive until next contingency. ..
Yes, it should
why greece should be forgiven for 300 billion euros they have stolen
Spoke Turkish for thieves, that’s funny !!!
but a life expect to find us in difficult moments to show your swagger
Ofcourse
What debt ?? The Debt GoldmanSachs and its Greek puppets amassed via computer screens ?? People have this pathetic idea that every Greek home has a ferrari parked outside bough on debt, the debt kings were the ousted previous Gov who cooked Greece, swindled tocic debts at criminal rates, that EXTORTED Greece, and the EU now refuses to deal with the new Gov trying to sift through these debts, stargely the EU wants to deal with those who created Greeces problems, isnt that ironic .. Of course Greece’s debts should be forgiven, half of them are illegal, Greece is a financial crime scene in short, and the people are now being forced to take the fall, Germany destroyed Europe and left 100 million dead in its wake, had its debt forgiven, why then is it such a tabboo for Greek debt to be forgiven ?? Ironically by its the same people (Germany) who refuse to even accomodate the idea, when they have had more debt relief than any country in Europe, ever.
No Europe should follow Waroufakis programm to reestructure the debt in All countries and devellop polítics to put economies into a groth path. Reforn european act into a larger integration and a common fiscal politics.
Yes. All debt everywhere should be forgiven.
And capitalism should be aligned with democracy. It’s time for a new, smarter, more modern and fairer economic system.
of course not
Yes
Please do it
No It should not….. It would give s bad example. Greece should be allowed to leave Euro Zone.
Το be erased because it is world not Greek debt which has not received 1 euro from it and has paid in fact huge sums of heavy interest.
Absolutely
German was responsible for 2 worl wars not just debt !
Of course, otherwise Europe is not a union of equals! Since Germany was forgiven, Greece should too.
YES. Till the next!
Poland as well 2 trilion zł or 0,5 trilion €
Til Death Do Us Part
No. But if so, then cancel all debts for all countries !
generally countries should pay their debts. But first fo all Greek government should be treated as an equal member of Eurozone and get the respect it deserves (which is long gone…..). Greeks ought to audit the debt, which will take time and then Europe should consider persuading Germany to pay its debts to Greek people for the horor and the crimes Nazi committed. Almost 70 years have passed and they haven’t pay their debt. The oldest debt should be paied first!!!
Of course, but then everybody elses has to. And this cannot happen without awakening at the very bottom about money. http://www.fixxi.net/fixxi-book-introduction-to-fixxi-neuro-state-programming
The problem IS NOT the debt.Reforms should be done and less state is the point.Even if the hole debt is forgiven Hellas in 10 years will be the same.Germans debt was forgiven but they managed with hard work and discipline to become a superpower .They are an example hard to achieve .And of course don’t think that far-left crazy government can achieve that.
Yes
Anyone can tell me one contry that got better with the soo called help of imf ?
No it should not, because Greek people have DIGNITY and will pay it back over the years. You are all using words as democracy, politics, practice, theory that are all Greek words, even Europe is a Greek word. Do you know how different the world would be if natives of this land had not invested their whole self in the development of the human kind, can you at least show some acknowledgement of this? Talking about corruption, i think i see the word not used properly, and real corruption exists in Bulgaria, Romania but much less in Greece. Also, i see many arguments here not based on any pragmatic political knowledge and it is a bit noxious since this particular country should be highly respected. Talking of respect, respect is when hundreds of thousands young tourists from the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands visit Mykonos, Tinos, Zakinthos, Santorini, Crete, Paros and Naxos, get as drunk as a human being can get, destroy private properties, urinate on the streets, get naked on the streets, consume illegal drugs and practice unsafe sexual contacts, and yet they are equally treated and respected by all institutions as hospitals and banks. This is what respect is. My point is, if one has an argument it should be at least based on some factual knowledge, and then we can debate Europe, because this country does not deserve the expression of casual opinions. Greece is well, and the best is yet to come. Best regards.
No
Nein!
no. they knew what they were doing
Who created the debt in the 1st place ? I would strongly say that those who9 created the debt have to be full accoutable for the debt in each and every nation and the people of the nations should not be suffering from those heartless and greedy individuals. They the great liars and theives should be sentanced to life in prisent and the people of every nation should live in total prosperity and harmony. No More suffering for the entire population, that work, taht worked most of their lives of which should have a decent pension.
Be specific! Don’t roll everything up in the same bag!
1 – Relieve the people from the burden!
2 – Make the banks and the crooks who contracted the debt to pay dearly!
Yes.
No.. Only German should pay Greece debt.
Germans had the wirtschaftwunder aka Marshallaid. The Greek had nothing but promises, golden beaches, fair weather, and all their national treasures in musea and private collections all over the world. What do you think?
“Forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors” Overcrediting has been perhaps the greatest economic sin – a structural sin – of our last decades.
Yes, and Portugal’s too!!!!! ( I’m Portuguese and we have Been through Hell because Bloody Europe demandings)
For the sake of the EU and for the sake of the Greek people the dept should be forgiven, thousand have Comide suicede in Greece this blood money should be stopped,
Let’s keep in mind that Germany was relieved of its debt in spite of the fact that it had already dragged Europe in two bloody wars! Greece was among women those countries which suffered most during the 2nd world war while the economic consequences took for ever to overcome! The Greek debt is largely due to bad fiscal policies and Europe should acknowledge its own cultural and political debt to Greece!
WHY NT?
If debt restructuring is such a bad precedent why did it work so well for Poland and GERMANY?
absolutely! fair’s fair!
Yes, Christopher, but after a war, a country needs help, not to be robbed! especially if they didn’t start it!
Is there another solution? Who’s next?
NO!
Yes!
It could help us get back to normal life again!! But I am not sure that it will ever happen!
Yes!
ragazzi ci siamo…partono gli assaltialle banche….
Yes
no … germany is no1 state in the world and give help to everyone, especialy to greece and so many greece people have a job in germany and nice seleries …. greece is stil junky state … afther all those billions of dolars … greece people and govermant, together, are just about steeling money …. and they are about to destroy eurozone and eu itself because of cryses they are producing …. constantly ….
German has debt also to Romania. The germens need to pay their debt to others! That’s fair!! They messed with all Europe in wars, etc
It should. Full stop
NO,it shouldn’t happend …
Yes,as long as they pay our country debt,which is 35million.
Make tha Banks first to pay the dept
As a Greek i dont want my fuking debt to be forgiven.EVEn if i have no participation in it as a 24yo unemployed guy. BUT i want germany to pay all the fuking gold and money they stole from our national banks during ww2.Germany’s debts have been forgotten twice, the current estimation intodays currency is around 120 bilion euros.They stole our gold theyd estroyed our infrastructure and grreece had tog et loans fore the next 30 years considering we have no heavy industry
Definitely not, that’ll just make people think that extremist parties are okay.
yes
YES!
Yes, Greek debt should be forgiven. This is because of many reasons and not a biased opinion of a Greek citizen like myself. The country has been accumulating defence outlays counting for 7% of its NDP as opposed to Holland counting for 1% of its NDP. The difference in figure counts for billions of uncovered debt. Corruption, although important to mention has not mattered more than 1% of GDP or a few billion euros, compared to the total figure of debt of Greece amounting over 300 billion Euros. Keep in mind that corruption in Greece is externally raised like the case of many multinational scandals spanning the globe reveals. Greece has been severly challenged by neighboring countries, before decisions taken to armour against external threats. The state sector is slightly over that of the average European figure in terms of numbers of public employees and size of institutions although rationalisation measures have been taken for years to get the state down to a regular size figure. Currently, tax evasion is negligible and digitally controlled by authorities for all tax liable civilians. Despite all that, the country suffered the most opressive fiscal measures ever imposed in the economic history of nations from IMF and Troijka and will no longer be able to recover from recession should further economic measures or fiscal adjustments may be imposed on it. At the stage of negotiations with EU officials we are now it is of paramount importance for all EUnations to extend their generosity to their mother of democracy by forgiving its debts and support its steps to economic recovery and prosperity.
The IMF made over €9bn profit from Ireland for the “loans that it made to them and also changed the interest rate at will during negotiations. NONE of the IMF staff in Washington pay tax but do talk about everyone else having to. As a lot of this “conversation” has been about problems brought about by bankers aren’t we in danger of overlooking the real problems that Greece, Portugal, Italy and Spain face over repayments of loans.
The German write-off was actually a write of after, in some parts over 40 years of non-payment i.e. it was never going to be paid. With the current situation – and the amounts of money currently “loaned” to the Balkans and Eastern European countries writing off Greek debt will cause a huge problem. Therefore stop the IMF from being a profiteering bank which charges such usurous rates and do not allow this to continue. All of the “troubled” Eurozone countries have probably already paid back what they were loaned – in all cases forgive the interest and stop this Washington based self-serving organisation from bankrupting nations.
This link will take you to the 2014 salary structure of the IMF – equate those figures to anything that can be earned in the debtor nations! http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/ar/2014/eng/pdf/webtable54.pdf.
The actual accounts for the IMF for 2014 are here and should be read by everyone who has staked a claim in this conversation.
This problem was started by the Financial crash and extended by a poorly drawn up agreement for a “currency club”. Before Germany moved to the Euro there was a bank in Austria which had Deutschmark on deposit higher than the income of most 3rd world nations and only last year there was a story that Germans had hoarded over €6 billion. http://rt.com/news/217663-germans-keep-billions-deutschmarks/
Not one country that joined the Euro did so “honestly”. They all “balanced” the books to show that they qualified correctly. It was a flawed system and still is.
Yes!!!
Yes!!!
YEAP!
So they want to pay the debt with the money of Greece people and this is wrong, bankers and politicians should pay for it.not others.
YES! but they should allow EU police to investigate their corruption . They should destroy their corruption and crime otherwise in just 15 Years time situation is going to be similar . Greeks can’t pay back , all should accept that. Their dept is 175.1% of GDP (2013) , that is imposible to pay back .
Corruption and crime : Problem , you should understand Greeks ! You borrow money to corrupt country like Greece or Croatia and those money just disperse . The only thing that is left is a huge debt to poor folk . Poor folk is than just a slave to the banks but rich-corrupt people send money to secret accounts in Switzerland and other countries. Than you have problem that poor people are very angry just because they have to pay back a huge amount of cash and they have to spend life in poverty . EU should help corrupt countries in their fight against corruption and tax evasion , how much in tax has been collected from example Apple and Google in Greece = 0.00 $ . European System of Central Banks should write off debts , arrest gangsters and help poor countries to become free of slavery . http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
BBC – tax evasion : Mr Henry said his $21tn is actually a conservative figure and the true scale could be $32tn. A trillion is 1,000 billion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097
Greek cash is in Swiss banks . The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was €28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
Yes
Yes!
Sure
Partly, even if the Greeks were profligate, the Germans too made money from them by selling them Golfs, Mercedes and submarines. The Greeks should be helped with more reasonable terms.
Yes
Why not? It’s the least the West can do for Greece given that it was Greece and the Greeks which has given most of humanity the ability to walk instead of crawling on all fours, speaking instead of grunting and reasoning instead of picking up their own feces and consuming it. By the way, you’re all fvcking welcome!
yes
???1953 was after WW2. Greece now is after THE PERTY 2004-2011!!….xaxaxaxaxa. Opposites ??……
I agree only in part. It should be forgiven if Greek policy change too. And not only for the Greece. Italy has 2150 billions euro debts. What about forgive that debt too? If you do for Greece you must do it for all other countries. .
I have a better idea:
1. Germany to pay back the Occupation Loans extracted from the Bank of Greece in 1942 (11bn euros including interest)
2. Germany to pay WW II reparations to Greece (7.1bn USD in 1938 prices + interest) postponed due to the 1953 Agreement to be settled after the re-unification of Germany (200bn USD in current value)
3. Germany to pay compensation to the victims of the attrocities committed by the Germna occupation army in Greece (1941-45)
4. Germany to appologize for the attrocities committed by the German occupation army against Greek civilians
I can’t understand how an Italian citizen, whose government paid war reparations in the 1950s and 1960s to Greece, links the “pardon-debt policy” to a change in Greek policy. Better go for the solution described above and getting rid off the West European Usurers Corporation before it destroy Europe as a continent and an idea.
What about east Europe? The Hungarian and Polish citizens have debts because they’ve fighted Russia and the system in 1980’s! If east Europeans did not fight, there would be communism in all Europe now! What about forgiving our debts?!
What about east Europe? The Hungarian and Polish citizens have debts because they’ve fighted Russia and the system in 1980’s! If east Europeans did not fight, there would be communism in all Europe now! What about forgiving our debts?!
No way ! German people is serious. Cancelling their debt was an investment. Greek people is opposite. Their culture hate the word “work”.
Insulting a nation/people is the worst way of tackling a problem. Please check statistics and you may surprisingly discover that Greeks are among the most hard-working people and worst-paid in Europe (only Romanians and Bulgarians are in worst place). Therefore, it is better to review your thoughts, taking into account my comment on Alessandro Tavazza
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2015/03/18/parallels-greece-today-german-debt-relief-1953/#comment-248427
Good question!…
It’s a bit tricky to tell. It would be the begining of a new and unpredictible process for the eurozone… i would say rather dangerous! In 1953 there was no eurozone and in this moment the situation it’s quite different!!
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html
yes. This is much better than printing additional money because it are mainly banks and international institutions that lose money then.
Why was Germany forgiven?? Greece wants her money returned (WWII compensation) so that she can pay. Two different things.
Yes for god’s sake!!!!
Nobody mentioned Ireland, got €85B to bail out a “money warehouse” and now the debt is over €185B and rising! There is no way 5 million people can ever pay that off so its well past time to press the “Reset” button, in the past it would take a war to do it, will it take another WW to do it and who will have to be eliminated?
Hell No, and Greece would be one of he last countries where debt should be forgiven
https://olympiada.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/cf80cf81cebfcf84ceb1cf83ceb5ceb9cf83-ceb4cebdcf84-ceb5cf80ceb9cf87ceb5ceb9cf81ceb7cf83ceb5ceb9cf83.jpg
ΕUROPE PEOPLE MUST KNOW WHAT THEY ARE ASKING OF US //- Opposes the taxation of gambling! Does serving whom?
– Opposes the cost of mobile phone licenses !!! Why Free competition is not? As if to blame the OTE is German? Affects there a small business?
– Of course react to provide a tax credit for residents of the islands!
.
No, stay in the Eurozone, default and let the other 18 Euro countries pay off their debts.
GREEK PEOPLE HAS NOT LONGER TO PAY FOR POLITICALBASTARDS INSIDE AND OUT OF GREECE / ALL ITEMS dinane PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS was false. The European Union checks NOTHING ???? THE EUROPEAN UNION HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES!!!!! ..
Konstantinos Melas again and again and again
I’m leaving this page because I don’t believe in Europe anymore! And I hate this Europe who cares just banks and companies interests! Addio!
NO WE DONT WANT … WE ARE ENOUGH PROUD TO ASK IT !!!!!!
But :
Ask Germans why they don’t pay the money from 2d world war damages ?
Is (soon) they pay we will have enough money to give them …… A loan !!!!!
Ask germans why they forget to pay taxes in Greece ?? (Mercedes BMW ect)
Ask Germans where Is our gold ?
Ask Germans why Siemens is everywhere ?
HELL NO … WE DONT NEED ANY SYMPATHY , WE DEMAND RESPECT !!!!!
Μιχαλης Μιχαηλιδης , Xristina Skandalari , Panos Skouroliakos , Radek Otta , Χριστινα Πετρενιτη
Yes it cause this dept is illegal
Goldman Sachs cooked the Greek accounts for 10 years, in cahoots with bought politicians. Frankfurt issued debt is all fake. So in fact Greece should be asking the central banks for damages and sue the US banking cartel and rating agencies as well.
Let’s be honest; Germany’s debt was forgiven because of the World War which left the country in ruins. Greece’s mess is not because of conflict but due to corruption and financial mismanagement.
Other countries that loaned had to implement various measures in order to be bailed but their economies are improving (Spain, Portugal, Ireland) as far as I am aware. Why should Greece get special treatment?
I am all about helping Greece out but they need to accept the conditions by the EU or the IMF – they can’t honestly expect more loans without responsibilities on their part.
A better question would be “why do the greeks get austerity, when the Polish and Slovaks didn’t? or….”What are the effects of Greek austerity on other EU member nations”?
I think the debt should be restructured but with clear commitment by the Greek government to make reforms. A proper agreement should be signed by Greek government and its creditors that will force the Greek government to make the required cuts in public spending, in exchange of debt forgiveness.
In this way the EU will be assured that Greece does not fall back in another bailout fter few years and this will also discourage other nations to ask for debt forgiveness.
JAIL THE THIEVES AND CONFISCATE
Yes it should
Let’s be honest; Germany’s debt was forgiven because of the World War which left the country in ruins. Greece’s mess is not because of conflict but due to corruption and financial mismanagement.
Other countries that loaned had to implement various measures in order to be bailed but their economies are improving (Spain, Portugal, Ireland) as far as I am aware. Why should Greece get special treatment?
I am all about helping Greece out but they need to accept the conditions by the EU or the IMF – they can’t honestly expect more loans without responsibilities on their part.
of course
YES, absolutely !
odious debt contracted against the will of the people. Yes, it should be forgiven.
Yes by all means and every country and person too :)
http://cancelgreekdebt.org/fr/
It was stupid then it would be stupid now.
~ ” Should Greek debt be forgiven?” ~ FORGIVEN? ~ THE RIGHT PROCEEDURE IS, THE IN -DEPTH INVESTIGATION FROM A REALLY INDEPENDENT INSTITUTION IN ORDER TO BE POINTED OUT, HOW, WHEN, WHERE FROM AND FOR WHAT REASONS GREECE HAS THIS TERRIBLE DEBT…. ~ THEN WE CAN TALK, GO TO THE INTERNATIONAL COURT IN THE HAQUE AND LEAVE REAL JUSTICE TO SPEAK LOUD!
A ridiculous question, as the greek government tries to establish an agreement, that ensures economical growth. The creditors, on the other hand, apparently wish to rule Greece, without any concerns about the Greek, or what situation this will bring EU citizens in. One thing is very clear. A surrender of the Greek government to the creditors will mean, that banks rule countries. Not democratically chosen governments.
This is rhetoric. The Greeks have full sovereignty, they can always choose the bankruptcy way. Nobody can force them to pay debt in any manner.
So one thing we must ask ourselves. Is this the European Community we want?
I would like a federal EU, that can have the power to transfer resources from one nation to another in this cases, but it will also have the power to impose sustainable policies when needed.
The EU based on a council of 28 minister is ineffective in tackling urgent problems such an economic crisis.
I don’t think that is the answer. And the blame should not go to the “Greeks” for not all are crooks, embezzlers and so on. Something should be done to help the common everyday Greek and those who brought the country to where it is, whether they are Greek or not for we all know it was not just the
Greeks but also big businesses and bankers from abroad.
Therefore, I think that either Greece’s debt be reduced to maybe half, or the country leaves the Euro. It is going to dissolve in the next few years anyway.
If the Greeks obey to this hideous prorogram that will suck the blad of there people I am sorry but they are not honering there ancestors name and legacy..Better die brave and in virtue and free rather than slaves of that dirty desquasting Europeans that they don’t even Honor the word European which by the whey is also Greek as the idea and the entire culture of that continent…
THE GREEK WANTS TO LEARN WHY ΤΗΕΥ DONT ACCEPT THE PROPOSED EQUIVALENTS OF Alexis Tsipras
NO
.
The ‘unelected’ European Commission as guardians of treaties knew Greece should not have been allowed to join the Euro but did so for purely European integration reasons.
The fault ultimately rests with the European Commission..
The countries in the Euro wanted a single currency, now they must pay the price for it.
Vystoupit Varulakis od ministra finance škodí zemí Řecku které v nouzí potřebuje peníze je to stav nouze .Prosím odstupte z vlády.
Yep! Cancel all debts for all countries. As capitalism thrives on debt, we could have a new start. But when we cancel the debt, cancel the politicians, the banks, the corporations…….Give everybody a book, ‘Mutual Aid’ by Peter Kropotkin. After all, we’ve tried everything else and the world is still f***ed!
If Europe looses Greece it will be the end of Europe….strategic, economic ,cultural, and soon it will brake to pieces….
Yes to help the country from the crisis, and It will be a gesture of solidarity between the European countries.
HAYIR.kaldırın kıçınızı çalışın
yes to all poor countries
If they don’t that will prove the strategic intention of Germany to role the continent by there roles which they already do for the 2cond time ….
To overcame single countries and worldwide crisis , favor the development and welfare and above all overcome genocide, war and disequalities we need to move all together sinergically .
“Fiscal compact” agreement in Europe has been a good first step …. now we need
1 ) a Global ” Fiscal Compact,
2) a global Balanced Budged in any other world countries constitution
3)to abolish all worldwide Tax Havens ..( only one open is sufficient to neutralize much of the effect of fiscal and price policies in the rest of the world, especially in the weak countries)
Fixed this worldwide FINANCIAL /ECONOMIC target any single countries should simultaneusly start to reform deeply his domestic not only FINANCIAL but also POLITICAL AND PUBLIC Structure, (the inefficient burocracy is sino
Budgets out of control, high taxes, bureaucracy are the different sides of the same coin: corruption and tax evasion.. Corruption in a country and in the companies have the same effects of hard drugs on humans .. At the beginning in humans the drug makes them dream, make them thinking they can achieve incredible performance, make them thinking to dominate others and then slowly bring to make them incapable, reduce their will , until makes them disappear .. .
In the same way in the companies corruption .. at the beginning increase revenues but decrease competitiveness, increase market share but weaken the ability to improve their products, allow to hire people but weaken the quality of management until slowly they go out of the market .. but not before having also also damaged and contaminated the social and productive system that had hosted them , demotivated the most capable and professional people and inexorably destroyed the image and economic and social potential of the whole system of the country.
To heal the weak economies affected by this “social cancer” EU together with the interested countries should therefore approve an anti-corruption plan that above a much more efficient law, more effective, preventive and punitive of the laws that contradict the drug market, can include a dedicated process of PA e Politics reorganization ..,, this could be done with assistance of European Union countries experts that should make a master plan sequence of real and concrete actions to take in any sector of the country .
Only this way can guarantee to Greece and also to other week countries to return to a stable and relible economic development and allow EU to lend an interim loan that could be repaid .
It is obviously implied that becouse all the program will work also the worldwide financial Institutions demonstrate to be able to restructure their financial system .. blocking tax evasion , fiscal havens and most of the speculative finance … Greece alone as well as Italy cannot do much ..remember !!
Francesco Totino
founder at “new politics and economics thinking”
https://www.facebook.com/groups/109329849194325/
No, they should do their deep reforms in many sectors! Money against reforms, that is the right way…
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/06/09/greeces-future-in-the-eurozone-keynote-at-the-hans-bockler-stiftung-berlin-8th-june-2015/
what is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the ganda….. BUT in the Eu the goose is very fat…. and they want to to stuff the ganda
Nice picture
I think so
How many more times will you post the same questions? Its like you are in need of approval for this
No, debts should not be forgiven, unless caused by “predator companies” and such, but as I understand now it is not about it. But yes, solutions and possibilities should be built. What can the Greek do for better economy? How could they understand the common good, including tax, as we do up in the north? Are there some common benefits for their style, and would they want us to understand them?
I do not care if Greece Stays or Leaves EU, as long as we get what we had to lend them for their Shitty Management !!
Yessss
If I don’t pay my debt my bank take my house, in my opinion everybody should pay their debts and have time to find money to pay it. Germany had it, now is time to pay. Greece should have the same treatment!
https://www.facebook.com/soutienaugouvernementgrec/photos/a.857719110951284.1073741828.857210914335437/931049010284960/?type=1&theater
yes!!!
No! Why?!
How much money has EU infested in Greece since 1980, and still it doesn’t pay off…
Yes!
To overcame single countries and worldwide crisis , favor the development and welfare and above all overcome genocide, war and disequalities we need to move all together sinergically .
“Fiscal compact” agreement in Europe has been a good first step …. now we need
1 ) a Global ” Fiscal Compact,
2) a global Balanced Budged in any other world countries constitution
3)to abolish all worldwide Tax Havens ..( only one open is sufficient to neutralize much of the effect of fiscal and price policies in the rest of the world, especially in the weak countries)
Fixed this worldwide FINANCIAL /ECONOMIC target any single countries should simultaneusly start to reform deeply his domestic not only FINANCIAL but also POLITICAL AND PUBLIC Structure, (the inefficient burocracy is sino
Budgets out of control, high taxes, bureaucracy are the different sides of the same coin: corruption and tax evasion.. Corruption in a country and in the companies have the same effects of hard drugs on humans .. At the beginning in humans the drug makes them dream, make them thinking they can achieve incredible performance, make them thinking to dominate others and then slowly bring to make them incapable, reduce their will , until makes them disappear .. .
In the same way in the companies corruption .. at the beginning increase revenues but decrease competitiveness, increase market share but weaken the ability to improve their products, allow to hire people but weaken the quality of management until slowly they go out of the market .. but not before having also also damaged and contaminated the social and productive system that had hosted them , demotivated the most capable and professional people and inexorably destroyed the image and economic and social potential of the whole system of the country.
To heal the weak economies affected by this “social cancer” EU together with the interested countries should therefore approve an anti-corruption plan that above a much more efficient law, more effective, preventive and punitive of the laws that contradict the drug market, can include a dedicated process of PA e Politics reorganization ..,, this could be done with assistance of European Union countries experts that should make a master plan sequence of real and concrete actions to take in any sector of the country .
Only this way can guarantee to Greece and also to other week countries to return to a stable and relible economic development and allow EU to lend an interim loan that could be repaid .
It is obviously implied that becouse all the program will work also the worldwide financial Institutions demonstrate to be able to restructure their financial system .. blocking tax evasion , fiscal havens and most of the speculative finance … Greece alone as well as Italy cannot do much ..remember !!
Francesco Totino
founder at “new politics and economics thinking”
https://www.facebook.com/groups/109329849194325/
yes, why not? they have no chance to pay, so why does the people have to suffer?
No.
YES,of course!
big yes. let the germans pay
YES! But Greece must allow the EU to reform its governmental spendings!
Also that the relations between the national governments and the EU must be revised.
Fiscal and Economic Union NOW!
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/06/09/greeces-future-in-the-eurozone-keynote-at-the-hans-bockler-stiftung-berlin-8th-june-2015/
I think that its absolutely necessary that the Greek government Debt be restructured to a sustainable level. At the same time the Greek political “leadership” along with capable EU technical expertise must reengineer its Governance & Economy for a sustainable and productive long term future! All these actions must be proactively communicated to Greek citizens and all other Europeans as a Vision! 👌🏼
No. If. I. Do. Not. Pay. My. Depts the. Bank. Take. May. House .. Then. What. Are. Contract foe..
No doubt! Yes, should be forgot and be helped to fight corruption. That’s what Greek government has asked to European partners. 100% of 0 is 0, 1% of 100 is 1. Better for all Europe have Greece in grow that don’t have Greece at all.
no. they must pay and follow the rules that are valid for all the other countries
No. It is never good to resort to former wars to conduct nowadays politics, it only lead to resentment and hatred between populations. But that argument should be used by the greeks to press the case for a restreucturation of their debt.
Yes we are human
Of course.
Sim,
Yes,
Sí,
Ja,
Da,
ναί,
Áno,
Jah,
Kyllä,
igen,
Já,
Sì,
Taip,
Iā,
Iva,
Tak
We have been willing to forgive the German debt after World War II, in which they killed millions of people and destroyed Europe. Today, though, It seems totally unacceptable to think about forgiving the Greek debt, even it has been raised by a mistakenly made European Union and used basically to artificially keep alive their banking system. What kind of people did we become?
And mine too, please. :P
yes
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/23/europe-is-destroying-greeces-economy-for-no-reason-at-all/?postshare=161435086211133
It shouldn’t have happened on the first place; the poor financial management of the Greek banking system, and that of the IMF/ECB, has sent that poor country to its slow and painful economic death. Such a shame….
Yes!
Yes. It’s all about the Banking cartels who rule behind the scenes.
http://www.socialeurope.eu/2015/06/why-angela-merkels-is-wrong-on-greece/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
Greece can pay it’s debt and prosper towards a better tomorrow for its citizens
Only if even my depths are forgiven too .
Greece Clean and Clear Shining like a brightest star Saudi Green 1320 nation and also it’s Citizens
Of course not, do you know how? Go to Switzerland open all the bank accounts of Greek politicians, entrepreneurs and other who either abused public funds or made money in black market and pay the depth. You can not ask people that they don’t have enough money to cover their expenses to pay extremely high tax for the house that they bought with years of work, extra VAT on food, tax in the electricity and with 27% general unemployment.
????? 1953 was after WW2 ….!!!! Now Greece is after 2004-2010 PARTY with Primary Deficit ~ 110 bn/2004-2009 and 19 bn./2009-2011(at a ~ 200 bn. G.D.P!!)xaxaxaxaxaxa…….No relation!!…..Opposites perhaps???…..xaxaxaxaxa
To the Greek people – YES!
To the crooks that contracted these debts – NO!
So the creditors must forgive Portugal’s, Spain’s and Italy’s debt too. Of course. Why only Greece shoul receive this grace?
YES for many reasons and for the reasons
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
yup.
no….Germany is a superior nation……hahahaha
Is there one country in the EU that has not got a debt? or a finance gap? come on……
Yes! And the other countries too! Or Greece is diferent than the others?
YES!
Only if the EU-IMF-ECB can not think of a way to allow Greece to pay its debt.
of course not;If Greece would have made progresses in tax collection and a decent reduction of guvernamental spending, maybe …
Apparently, Ivan the Terrible replied to my comment which seems to have disappeared.
No debt should be forgiven.
No
Absolutly…
No…
No debt must be forgiven
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153615532735769&set=a.10151210326250769.483203.535030768&type=14
You destroyed already so much. This EU is wrong. Because you don’t understand the different cultures.
Greece has always been treated like a step-child by the west. The U.S. expects undivided loyalty from Greece as a NATO member and western ally while it supports military aggression against Greece by Turkey. The 1974 invasion of Cyprus and the illegal Turkish occupation of this predominantly Greek island has been ignored by the west for 41 years. U.N. resolutions against Turkey are not enforced and continued air and naval harassment by Turkey keep Greek defense forces on a very costly, constant alert with daily defensive sorties to protect its borders and sovereignty. Europe admitted Greece as well as Cyprus into the EU and yes they provided finance by making credit available to the residents of these two countries. The truth is however that this was an ill-conceived, economic approach to growth based on supply-side economics. Greece and Cyprus are not Germany or Northern Europe or vice-versa. In addition to vastly different economic philosophies, there are cultural, religious, political and ideological parities that have all culminated in a schism that proves that a united Europe cannot be attained. Europe is not a “melting-pot” and it will never be. For example, there is no way that you can convince a Brit to forget the past and love his French neighbor. They can coexist, but they will never become citizens of one country! Britain is considering a Brexit despite the fact that they are a lender to Europe and not a credit risk. The UKIP success in the latest elections in the U.K. is a clear, popular mandate against full integration into the Euro zone. Italy’s economy is also on the brink of bankruptcy under the Berlin-based dictate. What’s next for Greece? This is clearly unclear. Some things however will remain unchanged in Greek society, the love for life and real freedom. The supply of ouzo, octapodi, and calamari will not waver and the wine will continue to flow from its sun-drenched vineyards. The Gods chose Greece as their home for many “eternal” and divine reasons. Greece’s beauty is unrivaled and the spirit of a TRUE democracy cannot be assassinated at its birthplace by any past or modern-day fascist!
Yes
Yes, it’s extremely ironic for Germans to speak as they do of the Greek debt, with such a recent past. Politicians and negotiators a side, the German populace and opinion makers have become very aggressive and make strong negative comments about Greeks, such as calling them lazy and so on. But then, the debt if other countries such as Italy, Spain, Ireland and Portugal would have to be forgotten too.
Not forgiven but restructured, it is a totally different thing. The point is to be relieved or to be separated some how like good and bad bank loans
I have just one question why the IMF does not accept a tax increase for the richest ??? That’s the real problem of the Greek debt and all the debts in the world … The rich who are rich with those debts that peoples must pay now … because the big fish always eat the small one…
If this debt is properly audited, there should not be much recognized as real debt to be paid back anyway…
No. Germany must pay its WW2 debt to Greece, and Greece must pay its debt to the other European countries (unless it is found to be illegal)
Why
Why not ?? Greece hasnt bombded destroyed Europe nor has it killed millions of people and committed genocide, as Germany had before having its debt forgiven, if its good for Germany it should be good for anyone else.
there is no reason why it should.
φοργκιβεν και στα μουτρα σας μαλακες…να μας συγχωρεσετε για ποιο λογο;γαμω τις πολυεθνικες σας γαμω…
Ποιό χρέος?
NO!
and what about Portugal, Italy, Spain..
Sure. The Greek, The Portuguese, The Spanish, The Italian, The Dutch, The British. Let’s start all over. :)
Europe has been overspending to give a good feeling to the people and each leader was passing to finance problems to the next. There is a solution is to live happier with less.
f FMI !!
Yes-
yes!
Yes.
Yes
Yes! It is only money…
Yes
No way Irland, Portugal, Iceland, Spain, and Italy have made their Citizens suffer so I dont see a reason why the Greek debt should be forgiven. Take the present Greek government what have they done of constrcutive but travel to and from Athens to the Euro parliment. Look at the salaries they have for doing what nothing. Make them pay. Ask Mr Tzipras what was his commission for signning the gas pipeline with Russia. Make them pay.
I can only speak for Italy. There is no comparison between the suffering of the poor in Greek with what poor in Italy have to bear with.
warum wird sie bewacht da ist ja nix mehr da :D
It has to and it will due to its historical importance…like it or not..
In my House, City and Country
When we owe money – we pay it back (w/interests). End of story.
For all of you who said that debt is debt and must be paid I reccomend to read the Shekspaere masterpiece “The merchant of Venice”…
No,just pay their taxes instead of the black market!
no
YES but EU police should be allowed to go to Greece and investigate their crime and corruption . EU police should arrest Greek gangsters and get their money back to Greece from tax havens. The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was €28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
Be forgiven ?? Who ? To become a crime requires both sides. Joint responsibility is the key word . Watch the entire Greek bond repurchase program by the beginning of the crisis and will see that the whole European area ( Private sector , banks, insurance organizations , etc. ) reorganized other than States. What is Europe after all? profits are privatized and losses socialized .
German debt should not be forgiven first of all!!! Yes, for Greece can be forgiven a part of it, not all!! But Greece should clear the corruption in their country first!!
Yes
Give us some strong arguments!
Yes
Yes!
europe should have let ht government of greece apply its own rules in their country and not force them take other austerity measures in order to stay in eurozone. as for the debt they should discuss it as greece let germany grow back then showing respect to a whole nation! germans should do the same now!
The poor Greek (say the 50 – 70 % of the lowest incomes) should be assisted. They should be assisted because the European Union is there for all EU citizens (I use the tag #EUisus across multiple platforms). The EU is also about solidarity among EU citizens in my view.
Now another thing is how to assist the Greek government to control the evasion of taxes and similar by the happy few and their businesses! It is here that Greece as a government should take the lead while at the same time pro-actively seeking full EU support.
In any case the current debt of Greece is totally unsustainable, hence a large – negotiated – chunk of the current huge debt should be written off.
Remember that French, German and other banks profited at the expense of poor Greek from lending recklessly to the Greek government and dubious private sector. The same is true for many private businesses across the EU that invaded weak Greek economy (think investment and construction in infrastructure and the like).
Would you agree?
This sir, is a great answer and opinion!
”forgiven”?there are conclusions of the greek parliament authorities that suggest that the debt is ILLEGAL and should NOT be payed.”forgiven”,is NOT the right word for an ILLEGAL debt,but for ciminals.
illegal debt, made by forcing the government to borrow money…as far as I remember from the media …
https://www.facebook.com/protothemagr/videos/10152823780282199/
You don’t know nothing, Greece spend a lot a money to army and military supplies, is the last Christian Frontier against Islam and isis,,, if Greece fall who’s the next, the history repeated, remember Spain under the Islam, Vienna almost fallen, there are many things except money,,,
Yes. And afterwards extend the same treatment to Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain! It is only fair.
if need be.
Never!
Yes….
No.
Yes it should! Solidarity is the only solution, and then we will make that this neve happens again (letting banks controlling governments)
You forgive Greek debt then you forgive all debt
Never bite the hand that is feeding you.
700 euros per french ! no and no
Yes.
Yes, stand in solidarity with one of the founding countries of the EU.
Yes. Same as Germany in the WWII. By the way Germany owes Greece some dozens of billion of euros from the WWII total assets confiscation
one million times the same question. Stop it. we are tired of it.
No comparison
If it could Yes!!!!!
Come on Germans have blue eyes and Greeks don’t, no blue eyes no party.
The two debts can are not the same the Greek debt was created by coraption and its illegal the German debt was created by destroying and luting my country by the german nazis and stealing the Greek gold to support the German troops in Italy during wolrd war ii therefore we must give them nothing and they must pay us all the money they owe us from world war i and ii all the ancient treasures that they luted the villages that they burned the population that they killed included children babies woman and elderly people and the gold reserves that they took form the central bank of Greece and they must not forget bloody germans that the last time they messed with us they lost the war they are a defeated nation and that bloody defeated nation should stay on their knees
Exactly what debt are we all talking about? The one created by the invisible market controlled by the “big bank” to pin countries to the wall then strip them for profits? or was it created by the corrupt politicians, corrupt organizations and institutions in exchange for power and monetary gifts by the monster that practicaly rules the world banks and ultimately economies. Because I really don’t see why should hard working civilians have to pay for it. One more thing didn’t Obama ignored Americas debt, which was astronomical, and pumped more money into the economy? Are we trying to Unite as many countries as we can so that we Europeans can impose respect world wide and created a super power that sets a higher standard way of living above anyone else, or was the idea of uniting countries in Europe so later these countries could be striped off their lively lives how ever meager you may think they were?
Y
Wtf
http://venitism.blogspot.gr/2015/06/government-is-1-terrorist-organization.html
No , the reason why euro currency has fallen down is the Greece, cause miliards of euros are given to Greece from European foundation, Europe became poorer, so why to suffer the most of Europe because of Greece?! Greeks are lazy and they just wants things ready and not working. Which countries were built by lazies ah?!
Amazing is it not. Despite of all the EU funded studies and statistics this old chestnut rears it’s ugly head by some who persist on a propaganda infused point of view without bothering to read up on the issue and therefore have an informed opinion
Obviously you are unaware of the following:
1. The euro is a unique currency that the issuing Central Bank (the ECB) does not lend directly to the state-members of the eurozone. Thus, each state-member shall borrow it from the markets leaving open fields for gambling and high private profits to the detriment of the public interest of the eurozone.
2. As a result, weaker-peripheral states ended up borrowing their official currency (!) from the markets at higher rates than the states of the centre (mainly Germany and to a lesser extend the Netherlands, Finland, France and Italy)
3. Consequently, competitivenes of the peripheral economies was undermined and they got bankrupt (this is not only the case for Greece but also Portugal, Spain etc.)
4. Greece (the weaker one) broke first in early 2010. At that point, most of its public debt was in the hands of private investors, funds and banks.
5. At that moment, the international usurers gang (IMF/ECB/EU-bureaucracy) decided to shift the Greek public debt (the debt of an already bankrupt state) from the private sector to the public turning it liable to the ECB and the other eurozone member-states (namely the European citizens)
6. That decision did not solve the problem of Greece as a bankrupt state and added two more problems: insolvency of the Greek banking system and depression that destroyed the Greek economy in 5 years.
7. Now, everybody fires at Mr Varoufakis who shouted “the king is naked!” (i.e the truth) istead of continuing the tricky game of his predecessors and their EU counterparts “pretend and extend” policy (pretend that Greece had not bankrupt in 2010 and extend funding it in order to recycle the debt increasing it instead of solving all the questions above)
8. This game “pretend and extend” was over in January, 30, 2015, Regretfully, the arrogant EU-bureacrats and their master (the Gauleiter of the eurozone W.Schauble) did not get the message clear and continued pressing a depressed nation and economy to abide by their will and continue its path to more pain and endless destruction without hope of recovery.
9. Now they are going to pay their arrogance along with the voters of the eurozone member-states that felt victims of their big lie that they “rescued Greece back in 2010” (though in fact they rescued with their public money their rotten banking and monetarist elites)
I hope you can revise your thoughts on Greeks and stop being a victim of that disgusting propaganda about “lazy Greeks and hard-working Germans”
The argument “Greeks are lazy” is dumb.
But I want to answer to George Yiannitsiotis, with which I disagree, but he has arguments are worth to discuss.
1. Neither the Federal Reserve lends to US government. Unless in QE periods in which it buys bonds on the market. Same thing the ECB is doing now.
2. The fact that peripheral countries borrow money at higher rate is due to the less likelihood of returning the investment (i.e. higher risk). This is in turn due to the bad state balances and in general to bad growth prospects.
3. It is the low competitiveness of peripheral countries that caused the higher borrowing cost, not the other way around.
4. I do not know exactly, but I guess it is correct.
5. This was a strategy to help Greece to avoid #grexit. And to avoid a chain reaction in all Europe. It was not perfect, indeed a chain reaction started anyway, but it would have been much worst if they did nothing.
6. The problem in Greece cannot be solved in one day, neither one year. The economy in Greece was faked by the debt, so after the troika Greece had to fall down before to get up again.
7. It is true, Greece is already in default, but in a monetary union other helps the nations in difficulties to avoid default. But Greece has to do reforms to fix the problem once and for all.
8. Maybe the requests of Troika were too bad, we can discuss about the details, but the Greece economy was giving signals of recovery.
9. They pay not the arrogance, but the lack of communication.
Anyway I wish all the best to Greek people, I hope they can get out of this awful situation.
@ Alessandro Mogavero
1. True; however, till joining the euro, the BoG lent directly the state at 0% rate; the Greek state formed its function and legal order on that basis. The Constitutional Order was blatantly breached by the Memoranda I & II especially with regard to “domestic devaluation” of salaries & pensions since it has not been adapted to the new reality of a casino-currency not controlled by Political Authorities
2. Correct; however, it worsens their competitiveness vis-avis the center (namely Germany)
3. The vicius circle of low competitivenes-higher borrowing costs can only come to an end by the adoption of national currency (devaluation equilibrium) – it is extremely disastrous for the periphery to remain in the eurozone under such terms
4. 93% private, 7% public in 2010 – the contrary now!
5. That strategy breached (indirectly) the Constitutional Order of many eurozone member-states especially that of Germany whose politicians played well the smoke-screen “Greece” in order to hide it from their electorate. Now they accuse the Greek Government! Perfect political demagogy!! The political damage caused by this strategy will be tremendous in the coming years as Order will erode in most of the periphery hitting the “EU” legal construction on the legitimacy question.
6. Correct but it is better to fall at once than endless spiraling downwards.
7. Reforms dictated by others in order to fit their economic interests can not be legitimized on social and political level; how many more Greek governments have to collapse in order the EU bureaucrats and Germany get it straight?
8. The “signals of recovery” were simply feable and not sustainable. On the other hand, the ordinary people who suffers from the “austerity package” that has been breaking apart our lives for so long (5 years now) lost patience and opted for a different path that does not fit well to the Eurocrats but gives hope for a future with LIBERTY and DIGNITY away from undemocratic insitutions like the “EU Commission” the ECB and the “eurogroup”
9. Arrogance irrespectively of communication quality looms in EU bureaucrats. Only when the newly elected Greek government knocked them out of the door, were shocked for a while (as they were used to be Gauleiters inside the Greek Ministries and other authorities for 5 years) but then, they recovered and again repeated their arrogance towards a Government with a cosmopolitan, smart, intelligent Minister of Finance who sincerely proposed them the solution to the problem (changing the rules of the euro in order to accomodate all members – not simply Germany). Now they are contemplating a regime-change without having learned their lesson from the undemocratic toppling of an elected government in 11/2011.
Yes.
ASSUMPTION 1: MOST GREEKS DID NOT CAUSE THE CRISIS.
I assume that the debts are due corruption and tax fraud of the people who have a lot money. That the crisis is the fault of a few sociopaths only caring for their own well-being.
This would explain the anger of the people on the other side of the salary gap, which work hard but get few to nothing for it.
ASSUMPTION 2: THERE IS NOT AN EASY WAY OUT.
Yes, an elimination of debts would cause a chain reaction in other European countries which are in an economical crisis.
Yes, a new currency may do the job, as history shows. But that would mean a damage on the economy, too.
I hope someone who is more educated on the matter finds a better compromise, but I fear there is no easy way out.
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/06/09/greeces-future-in-the-eurozone-keynote-at-the-hans-bockler-stiftung-berlin-8th-june-2015/ The solution can be reached by tackling the deficiencies of the EMU currency (eurozone). However, there is an emperor’s attitude and a lack of leadership at the heart of “Europe” (namely the EU – Europe is a wider case)
Let’s have a look at a much bigger Game being played out by the Bankers and the politicians working with them… the IMF, the EU, the Worldbank etc… … and their actual (not pretended) intention, which is not only focused on Greece.
Greece will be the first country to be smashed by this usurers gang. We know that irrespectively of the July 5th Referendum outcome, we are already the big losers regarding our participation in the “EU”. The 3rd bailout agreement will be the tomb of our basic human right to exist as free people.
First of all we shouldn’t mix things. The Greek debt is not only to Germany, but to the whole EU. I think that an agreement should be reached by all EU countries if they think that the Greek debt is not sustainable. Going back to WWII claiming money from Germany will not do any good and it will cause an anti-german feeling. If we don’t want to have a German Europe we should also not behave like they are the only ones responsible and those in charge.
As for the debt I think it should be restructed to help the Greek economy breathe. On the other hand the Greek governmets should proceed to fiscal reforms that are necessary, since what they were doing all this time was taking money and paying back. This doesn’t make Greece trustworthy and I think it’s not fair to other weak countries, members of the EU that also took strict actions. If we want a fair Europe we should move into this direction by being a good example.
YES!!! Show solidarity, end austerity! Give Greece a chance!
Να γίνει διαπραγμάτευση και να το πληρώσουμε το χρέος μας αλλά basta οχι πηραμε 10 να δωσουμε 1000(αν και άλλοι τα έφαγαν και οι πολίτες καλούνται να πληρώσουν τον λογαριασμό)
There is some point in “forgiving” – but only when you forgive to a responsible person.
“The quality of mercy is not strain’d,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
‘Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice.” Shakespeare, “The Merchant of Venice”
Arrest the ones that created this situation and yes forgive the debt once and for all, For All the Greek People <3
Yes in all Europe.
The lender of Last resort have to print
Yes,if we want to talk for a European Union with equality within its countries then it should be forgiven or if they don’t want to forgive our debt it’s only fair to reinstate the german debt!!
yes!
50% haircut. We paid for it, by saving French and German banks, with 14.000 suicides, 20.000 families on the street, 200.000 immigrants with master titles and PhDs, +15% of unemployment and 150.000 bankrupt businesses.
No
yes.
Something needs to be done to help the Greek economy grow, and so far all we have seen is negotiation about how much the troika will allow Greece to pay back to the financial institutions — debts to cover debts. Greece needs to reform its economy and its institutions, for sure; but the troika’s position is making that slowly more impossible.
Yes
Eine General Entschuldung aller Staaten sollte alle 50 Jahre stattfinden !!!!
Yes
Yes!
No way!!!
No! We dont want europe “forgive our debt”. We have no debt.
People of europe lost money. That much is true. We didnt take it. It wasnt us. But we know who did it. And we can help them get it back.
Greece’s economy is basically dead, after years of mishandling by opportunistic politicians, and its various business conglomerates. Corruption was and is still rampant. Tsipras just shot a bullet in Greece’s heart and now wants debt reassessment, read: reduction. While this may be needed at a certain point, Greece will need to be revamped and needs to get rid of its corrupt economic, financial and political system. A debt relief would then be in place, but at the same time those that caused this (US banks, Greek politicians) must be kept accountable for what they did in court. After all, these money driven sharks have driven Greece into the worst crisis since it got rid of the Junta. 40 years of mishandling is also not simply solved by reducing the debt. There is money in Greece, loads of it, kept by those that are unjustifiably exempted from taxes (the Greek church, ship owners, etc.). Before any debt reduction, also that part of the Greek stable must be cleaned (=creamed off) out, and so should all the accounts of Greeks abroad and those that dodge taxes for all those years. This will be a painful exercise that will last many years.
No. Germany was destroy by war. And what about Greece? There is no war. Just stupid greeks politicians who is responsible for crisis.
And the same for Portugal, for example.
Yes
and how about other countries debts? :D for example Hungary. We have 27% VAT on all products… so cry us a river!
Yes Re …Like german nazists debt is obsolete. .And correct stated above a brave hair cit was implemented to save germans and french banks..
Greece should pay their depts.
Yes to a fair deal.
Absolutely!!!
Εννοείται ΝΑΙ!!!
Should the Portuguese and the Irish debt be forgiven???
the best thing greece could do is whatever gets them out of the EU; the EU is a rapidly declining economy with a currency that has helped to drag a great country down into the dirt, and is doing the same to others; as a trading bloc, its profitability has been steadily declining for at least the past 2-3 years and will continue to do so; greece would do better with its own currency, able to set its own exchange rates, import and export tariffs, and do its own trade deals with rapidly growing and emerging economies around the world, rather than being tied to a rapidly declining trading bloc that’s showing nothing but signs of further decline.
Yes.
…. you are going to extremes…. no we are not asking for the debt to be forgiven….. Greece and we people ask for the chance to have a fair agreement so we can have groth and pay every peny that was stolen with a disonest way from the Greek people…..
YES !
When it comes to people – and, ultimately, to the EU as a project for people – longer term options and flexibility are needed. The IMF member States must also see to it their funds are used well but let’s be honest, Greece needs more than a few months to shift internal and functional paradigms… Requiring from Germany to pay WWII reparation simply displays helplessness at solving a situation generated by decades (or more) of economic laisser-faire. Maybe those politicians who made their fortune with that could pay back? Maybe they love their country?… No way they can ruin a country and they leave and enjoy the good life far, far away! The party is over.
yes, look what the Germans did!
Yes, better conditions at least. Portuguese also. Portugal and Greece united, end of pain to our peoples. From Coimbra, Portugal.
Does a forgiven solve the core problem?
YES! Obviously!
HELL NO WE DONT WANT ANY SYMPATHY !!!!!!
1ST GERMANY MUST PAY 320 BILLIONS EURO FOR THE 2d WAR DAMAGES THEY COST AT MY COUNTRY
2d THEY MUST SAY “THANKS” CAUSE WE SIGN TO FORGIVE GERMANS DEBT AT 1953 !!!
3d THEY MUST SAY AND SIGN THAT WE HAVE PAY OUR DEBT 4 TIMES UNTIL NOW BUT IS STILL THERE CAUSE THE HIGH INTEREST SO THEY CAN LIVE BETTER
4th THEY MUST GIVE BACK OUR GOLD
5th THEY MUST GIVE TO A GREEK COURT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO SIGN MANY GREEK SALES ABOUT SIEMENS (BIG SCANDAL)
6th THEY MUST GIVE 1,5 BILLIONS BECAUSE THEY “FORGOT” TO PAY TAXES IN MY COUNTRY (MERCEDES , BMW ECT)
7th THEY MUST SAY “THANKS” CAUSE WE BUILD MANY TANKERS AT GERMAN FACTORIES (ONASSIS) TO HEALP THEM AFTER WE SIGN TO FORGIVE THE DEBT (1954)
IF THEY DO ALL THIS YOU THINK WE WILL HAVE CASH PROBLEM ????
OR ANYONE CAN TELL ME ALL THAT IS NOT TRUTH ????
Μιχαλης Μιχαηλιδης Xristina Skandalari Μαρθα Σκανδαλαρη Χριστινα Πετρενιτη Panos Skouroliakos Roula Fotou Katerina Karali Κώστας Λουμιώτης Κώστας Βα’ι’τσης Daria Bilska-Stamiri Radek Otta
Yes!
We ve payed our debt…we cannot stand paying the interests to the mafia bankers for ever.enough is enough
My pension is more than half less of greeks’ pensions. I have no debts.
Yes
Its a time Europe union help Greece government and people
…..And then “forgive” Portugal and Ireland debt too. You’re not going to forgive Greece only are you ?
Its about time for Europe to become somehow fair…..
The amount of debt, as well as most of the specific measures taken (and asked now) have been suffocating Greek economy. It desperately needs a way to restart. The only ones who oppose to this are those wishing to profit from a suffocated – enslaved country.
We need either eurobonds or start to dismantle EU. Enough of this circus of loaning money to pay for interest of previous loans. And do you think it is gair to forgive Greece’s debt and not to forgive Spain’s, Ireland’s and Portugal’s? we have been through what Greece is being through but we could somehow manage so we’re no longer fit for a debt’s pardon?
YES, YES, YES !
Yes …and the same for Portugal
yes
If so, the other countries, such as Portugal, too.
They must pay n it would be unfair for ader member of eurozone
No-not at all. No one had to forgive German debt did they?!
Well, one debt came from war and reconstruction and the other was created by bad decisions and living above sustainability. Even if Greek debt is forgiven the root of the problem wont be eradicated; it will be just an excuse to continue with non sustainable politics.
Yes, and arrest the original creditors!
Yes,except ours,because our country took a loan with interest,to lent them to a spend thrift Government.
Yes! Of course
Yes
Hoe many more times? http://thereformedbroker.com/2015/06/28/some-stuff-you-should-know-about-greece-before-you-lose-your-s/
No way
.
The ECB and European Commission have declared ‘European solidarity’ is dead and are now conducting a campaign of fear-mongering to subvert the democratic process.
Either way it will be the tax payers in the Eurozone who will be paying off Greece’s debt.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/01/fear-mongering-enemy-of-democracy-from-greece-to-camerons-eu-referendum-euro-crisis
It’s amazing to see this support for a country which already had 50% of debt forgiven, without even showing reasons for it (i.e., without austerity measures)… Meanwhile, countries like Portugal are struggling, taxing everything, and no mercy for them.
Let us just forgive our debts and continue from there. We may want to think how to update our account and budget management system to evade this type of fate to begin with in relation to our environment, its renewability and supply.
When humanity shares all the necessary tools for its parts to become what they wish to see in the world, we are all able to acknowledge the absence of discrimination, rivalry and inequality.
There’s no other solution
Softened?
It’s the only way!
Of course borrowers must try to get it all back, but European People shouldn’t pardon borrowers if they push Greece away from #EU.
Greeks were irresponsible borrowing too much money, BUT borrowers were irresponsible too.
Borrowers get a profit when they get back the money plus the interests, it is just because interests are meant to cover borrowers’ lifestyle AND the risks of defaults, etc…
Maybe a part should be forgiven to ease the burden, and help Greek people to see the path to prosperity.
What’s the purpose of cutting off their dreams and having them eternally tied to borrowers?
I mean eternally tied to “lenders”
yes
under certain conditions of reforms there should be significant debt reductions
Yes if they come out from euro
Yes,of course
Exactly, João Martins Germans make war and are forgiven. Portugal and Greece had irresponsability in last décades and no….
Why not? Are we less capacity to be kind now than before? The german debt was forgive to not punish the people for the mistake of the previous government… This is now só diferent?
NO ,mas dêem-lhe mais apoio!!!Sempre pagarão algum …caso contrário zero
You’re trying to do everything possible to keep them in this joke called EU…. (more UE for Schengens, less for the easterns..). Where we pay roaming, where you can’t drive a car with foreign plates, where you lick USA’s bottom all day long destroying local economies… Shame on you, “Europe” !
This worldwide crisis is a crisis of legality and respect for the rules in the world that affects the most uncivilized and fragile countries, the economic instability of some countries as well as the rise of inequality among citizens is a consequence of this and not viceversa . The new policy needs to change its approach to analyzing and managing problems. In the specic case of Greece , the first reason of Greece debacle is the corruption factor linked to burocracy and clientelism ..more or less like Italy. Now, to overcame this barganing situation specially among Greece and EU both the part must agree basically on one factor: put the Greece in condition to reach in a certain number of years the standards of the other european countries .. Greece cannot fail in reaching these standard becouse should know that “Budgets out of control, high taxes, bureaucracy are the different sides of the same coin: corruption and tax evasion.. Corruption in a country and in the companies have the same effects of hard drugs on humans ..
To heal the weak economies affected by this “social cancer” EU and the interested countries should therefore approve an anti-corruption plan, this could be done with assistance of European Union countries experts that should make a master plan to take in any sector of the country . Only this way can guarantee to Greece to return to a stable and relible economic development and allow EU to lend an interim loan that could be repaid .
It is obviously implied that becouse all the program will work it is very important that also EU , BCE , IMF and all worldwide financial Institutions demonstrate to be able to restructure their financial system .. blocking tax evasion , fiscal havens and most of the speculative finance … Greece alone as well as Italy cannot do much ..remember !!
Francesco Totino
https://www.facebook.com/pages/New-Politic-and-Economic-Thinking-Independent-Government-Agenda/323797087665968?ref=hl
No!
Funny – Greece wants the Germans to pay a massive reperations bill to basically get them off the hook – are the Greeks going to tell the Russians to pay up for the damage caused to Finland, the Baltics, Ukraine and Poland for their invasion, occupation etc.
You bet your sweet a$$ they wont!!
Yes
Rudy de Paolis :)
Half of Greece’s debt was already forgiven in 2012, without even deserving it. What does Greece want more? To keep burning the money we give them? No. Sorry Greece, that’s enough. You should start becoming better at managing your money and choosing your politicians..
I would not say forgiven. if so also Portugal should be. Lot of despair despite the numbers. I think that this unmeasured and recessive austerity (as proven) is destroying what was bad already. It should be helped not only in finance (banks) but much more in investment in production, create jobs, and by that, IF taxes are properly paid with no evasion, things would stabilize, social system saved, and growth to pay the debt in full, or half would happen.
Austerity paid majority at the expense of high taxes, and pension cuts that in Portugal sometimes are of 200€, and at the same time paying some pensions that go much more than 50.000€. Unsustainable for a society. Those are not the ones who created the crisis. Things can go better if there is no greed, or anger at different governments, left or right wings. They got along before. I think there is a bit of extremism in both sides. and extremisms were NEVER good.
And of course, the ones that created and allowed this crisis to happen, left or right wings, should be judged, and go to jail, if not the sense of impunity remains, and the same will happen again.
Why stop at Greece, why not Spain’s debt, Portugals, Irelands? Lets forgive all their debt. And while we are at it, lets forgive my mortgage debt as well, it is not as much as Greece debt.
Yes, kiss each other cheeks, Peace, Love, Rock & Role (ganja). Otherwise you would be like Angela and Wolfgang so depressed that dive with all your citizens down the cliffs – Während echte Piloten auf Toilette gehen !
I mostly agree with Karel Van Isacker. Though I still believe that borrowers have to watch out who they loan, Greek system have to be cleaned before anything.
Hard for us to be sure if this hard period is putting Greek people in a fair way or will they be kept in a corrupt system.
100% – It should not be forgiven …. Greece is not getting out from a devastating war… It is getting out from a comfortable lazy period of Dolce Vitta.
watchoyt what Shultz does with the other hand…. pulled your wallet
yes..for sure
sim perdoada a divida! pq não? basta de instabilidade a um povo que sofreu e sofre….está mais á frente dois anos q nós….daqui a um tempo podemos ser nós.
Não,as circunstancias são completamente diferentes.
NÃO!
For all you my “friends” that you havent visit greece to see what realy happens here i invite you to my home at athens for 1 week to see and then judge!
Kyriakos Ellinas Petros Lyros Κωστας Παναγιωταροπουλος
Of course!!!
Of course, if we want to keep European Union in tact..then no choice but to help Greece.
no what ours must be returned.everyone pay taxes
No: war debts are not the same thing as debts negotiated and accepted by a government.
Greek debt could (and I think should) be reduced and terms of paying extended but rules are rules until they are respected by anyone, if we forgive Greek debt what will Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy say? “Why have you made exceptions only for Greece and not for us?”
Moreover, even if Greek debt were forgiven without real reforms of the public sector Greece would find itself in the same situation as today in a very short time.
Yes! Mine too!
Of course it should
Reparations of war of course no. If yes, I want reparations of French Invasions in Portugal…. kkk But yes, BETTER CONDITIONS TO PORTUGAL AND GREECE. For yesterday.
Why not? Is it more fair to erase the German debt? And since we have forgotten about many debts in Europe, why is this one so important? Maybe because you could buy your dream house for your vacations there for pennies soon… I’m not trying to defend Greece, but as far as the debt is concerned I think it’s quite fair and why not provide Greece some actual help in reorganizing it’s economy, not in the form of more loans, but by providing the necessary know-how.
If economy is going to destroy people, which it will, I think Greece deserves the help. It is more a humanitarian crisis rather than economic one. We all need to realise that. But reforms are a must. You cannot impose rules to countries trying to join EU and then not respect it inhouse. Greek people should also drop their national pride which has only been pulling them down. They gave so much to the world and the world needs to return the favour. EU should be based on unconditional solidarity. You cannot enter a marriage and then divorce if the partner is unable to find work. If you did not marry for intrest (rates), that is.
Yes should be forgiven, if it was forgiven for Germany in 1953 yes should be forgiven for Greece also.
No, because germans want to be exclusive.
Let’s all make huge debts, spend hours relaxing each day and be forgiven due to what some idiots here call …”kindness”, “solidarity” and so on.
Yes!
Yes. Next topic.
Referéndum in Europe for that
Should my debt be forgiven?
We should take all the deps and put the in a new single deps with a complete new payback plan. That fits for growth. Some reform is needed but not at the cost those that earn less that 2000€/month. And all retiree must have a pention of at a minimum of 1500€/month EU wide.
Firsly, german debt wasnt forgiven; it was written off as there was no single german state east getmany remained in rusdian control until their reparation payments from WWI were due to end).
The UN ruled that no government was responsable for the actions of a previous government, which meant that german debts were ignored.
Interesting how germany wants the greek government to obey the arrangements of a previous government when a previous german government forced greece to lend them huge sums of money (€11 billion)…
If greece has to pay, so does germany, who owe much more than greece does.
It should at least be restructured and made to be understodd that it is not the people’s debt. I believe that ethically it is important. Greeks got zero euros from the bailout, theey are just stuck repaying a bank debt.
I have no memories about italian debts forgiven. I remember Italian people, Spanish people, Portuguese people doing a lot of sacrifices. And pay for their debts. Why Greece shouldn’t do the same thing?
Yes, if we still live in the world where humanity matters.
Gradually, subject to taking the necessary reforms. Not allowing the current statist/corrupt model continuing.
So where did the money go? From one bank to the other
What are some billions between friends especially in the “after-war” crises that Greece is in our days – very similar to post war Germany :D
Not before the Greeks put the inscription in the marble filled with gold on the Pantheon : Protect Us From Mad Governments and Banksters and Let Us Follow for Ever Wise Leaders for a Responsible Government and a Good Organised State in accordance with our Democratic Europe We Hoped and Cofounded.
A significative part of it should, off course, be paid.
But some mechanism must be found and put in place to allow it to be paid.
Otherwise, everyone will keep losing. I think that this is what the greek government has been proposing since the beginning.
hayır!!,artık tembelliği bırakıp çalış evin şımarık ve tembel çocuğu Yunanistan..
NO !!, now insolent laziness and lazy boy left home runs in Greece ..
Geee….all this debt thing is a scam.. ..where did all the money go?? .. Some people got richer because of this… Some bankers should be hanged..
Hard working can work hard and not just would pay their debt back but move the Great Nation of Greece towards prosperity progress and a whole new future unlike anything before.
We have come to the point where we are completely at the mercy of the creditors……It is pointless to discuss this now…..We should have debated this much earlier……Greece better vote Yes or Zimbabwe will be like paradise compared what is in store for her………
All the money that greece take from the eu goes to banks and back to the eu in order to pay the debt..nothing actually goes to the people or the econony…lets be realistic this debt cannot be payed if we continue with this mesaures. Greeks respects the european citizens and want to pay them back and stay in a eurozone as long as govenments realize that we are a union and start acting like that.
why. if all the other countries of eurozone follow the rules and pay their debts, why should the greeks be diferent and have special treatment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfrHecq2FcI&feature=youtu.be
.
Now the European Commission is hiding the truth, can only assume it is not good news for Greece or the Eurozone.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/02/us-eurozone-greece-eu-report-idUSKCN0PC1PU20150702
should
of course ,give people air.
I think the realistic and politically correct way to deal with these issues is to use fixed rate perpetuities at current low rates, which can be bought out by future generations, if somebody feels like becoming debt free. This may be encouraged by stipulating the buyout discount rate as the then 30-year government bond rate, or some proxy for a market rate. I would get the EFSF to buy out IMF and rewrite perpetuity at 2,5%, payable to the EFSF. No financial matter disappears, but the annual payments become 12% of current IMF liability on that part for next five years.
Yes, if europe wants to growp up as a real union. european union is not only an economic union
yes
may right decision be taken by the right people and honest advisers may common sense prevail for the benefit of all
Yes…and everyones else as well…for what….make the bankers even more rich??? we dont evev no if it really exist
Yes..
.
If Greece is forced out of the Euro Italy will lose 40 billion Euro’s overnight.
Anyone like to guess which country will be next to be kicked out of the job destroying eurozone ?
http://www.thelocal.it/20150702/grexit-could-cost-italy-11bn-in-interest
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/01/the-forgotten-origins-of-greeces-terrible-crisis-will-make-you-think-twice-about-whos-to-blame/?tid=sm_fb
When r we gonna talk about a european minimum wage?
Well gosh, will you forgive the debt of those individuals that are working hard to make ends meet, and are constantly harrassed by the banks? Oh, you just forgive states I got you. Thus, I´m in deep trouble, because, I´m just little “ME” – I got it!
no
Yes!
yes !
Of course not before they clean their “house” and implement the reforms. Why should we agree if Portuguese, Spanish, Italian have to pay ’till last cent? Why do Europe treat they different? First classe Europeans, second classe? Because their geopolitics position? And the others are disposable? Is there it? Solidarity is a path one way only?
It should be put off for awhile anyway how will they ever get ahead?
Even in such a case, at the end of the Tsipras official period of governace (within 4 yeras) it will be again half ot the current debt!!!
No double criteiras.
Absolutely yes.
What a farce
Then everyones should!
No!!!
“Greece doesnt deserve to have its debt cancelled” BUT ” Germany had half its debt cancelled in 1953 after they killed 11 million people” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No way! Alexis Tsipras is to be blaim. He is not normal.
This question still?
Europeans should help Greek government to minimise corruption in the public sector and also corruption between private sector and governments funding. Europeans should help Greek government to turn European funds in real private sector growth oportunities! Only then Europeans should discuss about a debt cut. In any other way the corruption in Greece is so high that it will create the same problems again in 5 or in 10 years.
the paradox here is that Europe has already forgiven those who have created this debt: the governments of the last decades. instead they’ve been trying to suffocate our new government…
No way.
They were in a similar situation 40 something years ago.
Yes! And right now. The only reason that the Greeks are still in a full crisis is because the Germans have stifled so much of the economy that more cost cutting is now required by the Greek government to make sure that German banks still get paid off on their loan payments
Not exactly the same history!
Only if every other European gets a one week paid holiday to Greece or one of its isles!
The greeks should have been kicked out of ES and Eurozone long ago! Now normal countries would live in peace and prosperity and lazy greeks would have a chance to live like they deserve for once!
Dutch taxpayers lended Greece 13.5 billion, money we can not use for healthcare or jobcreation. Why should we give it to greece?
The debit is a Bank debit make them pay for it and not the ordinary people. The euro zone has become high handed I have always been for Europe voted Yes in 75 but looking at this very carefully do not like the why these countries act collectively. Who are they the EU has never balanced its books we don’t know how large the EU debits is could be covered up the monies they take from each county every year just a thought
.
Blackmail = the preferred European tool of control.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4484201.ece
Only Greece’ debt, why?
Mario Barka Giorgos George Nope 😂😂
Should Greek foolishness be forgiven just as German foolishness in their design of the eurozone has been forgotten?
.
Who will be next to be forced out of the Eurozone, France, Italy or Spain ?
http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/695/cpsprodpb/78D6/production/_83943903_who_owns_greeces_deb_v2_624.png
Absolutely not, everybody pay back, so they, Greec’s are not different from us….
No way, no, no, no……enough is enough….
Greeks vote NO. Berlin don’t want you outside, the consequences are imprevisible. Portugal continues a Angela Merkel protectorate only until next elections. Jobless, 300.000 Portuguese emmigrate in last 4 YEARS, taxes and more taxes, salaries cutted, ANGRY like in Salazar dictatorship, very etc End to this! We will show “the splendour of Portugal” again!
No
.
Democracy is dead in Europe, all hail the EU dictatorship.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/588161/greece-economy-loan-european-union-alexis-tsipras-banks-protests-referendum
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_greece_loc_eu/?fpla
For what reasons?!
These Greek people are incredible. It’s like we share an apartment and when the rent it’s due the Greek one decides to do a referendum and not to pay his share.
NO. Greece should pay to the last cent.
To be Greek and feel Greek is difficult ..I understand you ppl…You can hate us or love us..We just love you.Some political pigs we hate .Greatings of a friend of Greece ..
I’m sorry for the Greeks but they voted in their Government. If the debt is forgiven, it will happen again and again. And that will set another president for other EU countries to follow. So NO
Yes
No
No. They should label the debt that is ‘odious debt’, eg, the IMF bailed out the Euro,mint Greece. The loans from euro group were to save French and German banks, not the Greeks, as ‘odious debt’, and refuse to pay it.
That for Portuguese people. For our corrupt government new german cars, Republic Assembly with lunches like in Dubai payed with our money, prince salaries and until come to say is few.
Of course not!
Yes, but not all and Greece must really change
:)
Hes
Yes
No.NO.No…..
Absolutely not.
Let’s do it for all EU countries
for the sake of the facts: in 1953 not ordinary government debts but the war damage compensation imposed after the first World War were reduced. and Germany paid them until 2010
Absolutely not.
Yes
ofcourse no why for,for not respecting anny of eu rules?
Yes
Yes
Of course !
Of course !
Yes
Yes
Way? Greece was in a war recently? Was completely destroy by it? Please.
Way? Greece was in a war recently? Was completely destroy by it? Please.
Yes
Yes
Nope wtf is this ?
Nope wtf is this ?
No!!!
No!!!
I am a Greek citizen. Even if we suceed a 100% haircut of our debt, the current left party government will not know what to do with it.They have no idea of management of a free economic market, of investments etc. A new debt will occure very soon.The real problem is the growth of our economy and what is needed is a team of ”taliban technocrats”.
I am a Greek citizen. Even if we suceed a 100% haircut of our debt, the current left party government will not know what to do with it.They have no idea of management of a free economic market, of investments etc. A new debt will occure very soon.The real problem is the growth of our economy and what is needed is a team of ”taliban technocrats”.
I am really surprised reading your comment, using as a criterion that left party govern this country cannot manage to take out Greece from austerity and find the mechanism to growth. Over fourty years this country govern by two parties, PASOK (socialist party) and NEW DEMOCRACY (“right party”). Both of them, drove Greece into this huge debt by giving all those packets for growth to. oligarchy, to save bankrupted banks, and almost nothing to the people, and growth. How can I trust, as well as the Eurozone, to those parties again ???
I believe the debt should be hair cutted over 50%, without any Loans be given, and without interference to this democratic elected government, and if they are not able to succeed, or, do the same as the othe governmentsthere is always the democratic way, to change them. I am certain that, there are persons, technocrats, and economist appears in Greece to take country out of this default.
Yes.
Yes!
Definitely yes!
People don’t want yet to forgive it cause they didn’t ovenbake bunch of millions of people or what?
Absolutely NO.
No
No!
YES
The thievs must return OUR money! Or FMI give money for free to every EU state, nor only to Greece. If I do not reurn money the bank take me the house or car. Greeks must be executed on their belongings too.
Truth to be told, Greece won’t be able to pay back such a huge loan to the Eurozone and to the IMF. The fatal mistake Europe and the IMF made is the fact that they gave away amount of money to save the Greek bankrupted banks, without Greek gov and Greek economy to have any sufficient mechanism to pay back those money. Secondly, they reacted to Greece just as to any economy of the European north, declining the fact that Greece is a different and extraordinary country from economic aspects. Greece does not have industry or the ideal productivity to lift the burden of the debt via the taxes and the state is rather too corrupted to fight the oligarchy which the same Europe was fine with the previous years. Just take a close look into the last dept report of the IMF and the answer you seek will be revealed; Greece just cant bear such an enormous public debt.
A haircut should be practiced for other countries too. Just like the US mechanism, which allows internal haircuts within the states, Eurozone should help its states with dept-relief. It’s the only way to move forward, along with reforms in the public sector and the taxation system.
Yes it should.
The truth is somewhere in between.we need 3 things….we need a huge reduce of our debt (40-50%) ,we need a policy in reducing unemployment and stop the austerity measures because really they destroyed us…of course the austerity Measures are not the same with the reform of the Greek system….
YES!!!!!
Yes for Sure…..!
Yes. It cannot be that half EU states owe tones of money to the other half. This is not a real union. Would this happen ever to the USA?
At the same time, we need a central control on fiscal policy. So that “inner” EU debt will not be out of control again. EU finance ministry or something like that.
We need a more united Europe.
This will solve MANY problems. Including greek-style ones…
Otherwise the union will collapse. And nobody wants that.
The Greek High Debt, and the Debt of the European South is an issue that must worry entire European Union.
The Debt got higher because of the bad financial policy of political elites and because some developed European countries “closed their eyes” as their Banks gained billion euros by loaning weak economys.
Part of the Greek Debt is because French and German Banks where giving money to the Greeks to buy German and French weapons.
Part of the Greek Debt is because German and French companies where giving money to Greek politicians to sign agreements with the Greek state
A member – state default. What we do next, punish them or help them?
Greece did many financial mistakes during 2000-2010 and EU doesn’t accept even some Debt relief.
Germany slaughtered the half Europe and had a Debt relief by her victims..
yes of course!
And I am asking….Is this a valid argument till the end of the universe? Every time when we own something to someone we will refer to the WWar 1/2?! Anyway, I agree there is something wrong with EU, too.
Once Germany resurects the nazi attitude of “collective responsibility” against the citizens of other nation-states, it is relevent to remember and raise the question of 1. WW I & WW II reparations
2. The occupation loans
3. Compensation to the victims of German army attrocities committed in Greece
4. a full, unreserved apology to the Hellenic Republic and its Citizens for the (3) in the manner of Willy Brandt at Warsaw in the 1970s (the German leader has to be patient and visit more than 375 places to pay respect of the more than 0.5 million victims
Then, we can talk about recent debt.
It is now no longer a case of appotioning insults to Greece – the Truth or lies of our entrance into the EU should not be debated here – it is sufficient to say that it has been openly stated that the loan agreement was a non-starter and in desperation Greece accepted – not is the time to put it right. The Eurozone is supposed to be a member club of the highest order, yet Greece has been used as the whipping boy and totally humiliated – now they just want everyone who should – to put it right and give us an even playing field!
Exact! Thank’s for understanding our position!
The Mr. Tsipras is crazy to Greece is a failed state and wasted a lot of financial support to restore some health measures for their finances today has no possibility to pay your debt Good Luck Greece in future
Irrespectively of who is on power, the citizens of the Hellenic Republic are the firts in the row to be turned to debt-slaves and deprived of fundamental human rights (the right to private property, first in line!). As I can guess, fellow Portuguese are next in the row due to the implementation of a neo-nazi German doctrine of citizens’ “collective economic responsibility” for their public-state debt and of clients/depositors “collective economic responsibility” for the capitalization of their private banks! Goodmorning “Europe” (take a look at the European Convention on Human Rights and pray not to witness the dissolution of the Council of Europe and its Tribunal for Human Rights)
“Is it true Greek men can retire at the age of 50?”
I had to flee Greece at 50, and try to start over a new life of work, because as a self-employed person I was forced to pay 500E/mo to the social insurance agencies to keep my business, and couldn’t keep paying that.
All that money that I payed them was lost to me, because I can NEVER retire. The insurance agencies collapsed when their managers ‘invested’ our retirement money in US bonds before the crisis of 09, and lost it. That ‘investment’ was what triggered the Greek crisis. Despite how much we have payed, there is no money for us to retire, EVER.
And the part of the 500E/mo that was for medical insurance, was also for nothing, because the austerity measures of the Troika were explicit in destroying the health system. I had to pay 1300E for a necessary knee operation and the medical insurance paid only 32E for it.
Our past governments’ transgressions and the Troika ensured that there is NO FUTURE for the people of Greece.
And you, the people of Europe that are victims to the media propaganda to blame the Greek people, are next.
If there should be debt forgiveness it should be on its own merits and not on some past history event whose determinants were not the same.
To keep going back making comparisons sometimes just. resuscitates old animosities and that is not good if the EU is to be a friendly group of nationalities that work well together.
Act like a union and help each other.
GERMANIA THE BIGGEST TRANSGRESSOR OF THE 20th century has forgotten has FOTGIVING .HER DEBTS —-1924-1929-1932 and 1953!
How crewel and greet Merkel can be?
No GRExit but ZeusBullEnter screws Europa and Troika.
But let’s not forget what GERMANIA did to our mothers, fathers, children, and our beloved ELLAS in the 1940s!
Yes, the debt should be forgiven. OR
Stop paying debts whether through default or debt cancellation ! ! !
A 50% haircut for creditors may prove an acceptable ‘fudge’ Electra. Were I Mr Tsipras, I’d ‘bite the bullet’ and default entirely, reintroduce the Drachma and take the short term pain in order to re-etablish sovereignty, self-determination and national pride.
Yes, but not all the debt, and the remaining debt should have a deal with countries debt is owed to similar to what Germany had which is those countries should buy Greek exports so that debt can be repaid from this money. It worked for Germany who is now the wealthiest European nation.
Greece owes €330bn. Much of that was foisted on them unasked for. The Germans are in hock to the tune of €92bn. France €70bn. Italy €61bn and poor old Spain €42bn. The taxpayer will pick up the tab in the member countries because the 2010 and 2012 ‘restructuring’ ensured the banks got off the hook and rolled the debt on to the citizenry.
Only two possibilities are available. Firstly, huge debt relief would allow this idiotic charade to be carried on for years to come, say a 50% haircut for the creditors. Secondly, Greece could take matters into their own hands and tell the EU to stuff it, walk away from the entire debt and reintroduce the Drachma. The second option, whilst painful and fraught in the short term is the one I’d chose if I was a Greek citizen. The big problem for the EU if option 2 were chosen is that Spain, Italy, Portugal and France could all follow suit and welcome back the Peseta, Lire, Escudo and Franc.
Didn’t the US loan to Britain (made in the wake of the destruction of World War 2) only finally get repaid by the Brown government? It seems sensible to give the Greeks such favourable repayment terms as the US gave to the British, especially if it is true that over 90% of the current bailout money given to Greece has been going to pay debt interest. That is just crazy and obviously unsustainable. Hence the crisis. The whole situation looks like a big test for the European Union, a test that the EU is currently failing. Innocent people throughout Europe are going to get hurt, unfortunately.
Right!
DONATE to HELP settle the debt. To help the people. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-crowdfund/x/3331346#/story
YES OF COURSE IT SHOULD.
No,
Situations are completly different.
It’s comparing apples with oranges. Yes Germany had collected debts because of war. But thes debts also came from the treaty of versailles which was way too hars on Germany (and the inderect cause of WWII and NAZI rule in Gemany). Also in 1953 there were terms that Germany had to follow.
Part of the Greek debt needs to be resturctured, but strict terms should be applied.
Should Greek debt be forgiven as German debt was in 1953? is actually a non-discussion because you can’t compare the 2 situations. Should France pay more because of napoleonic wars? Or Sweden for the damages caused during it’s days as an empire?
Dear Kevin,
1. WW II reparations that Germany owes to Greece can not be written off. They constitute a legitimate debt under the London Agreement (1953) estimated at 7.1bn USD (1938 prices) + interest (200bn USD current prices approximately). Greece has not signed any treaty/convention/agreement abolishing this demand (the 2+4 agreement does not apply in the case of WW II reparations to Greece since the Hellenic Republic was not party to it)
2. Besides, the so-called “occupation” loans extracted from the Bank of Greece in 1942 have to be paid in full (Hitler started payign them back in early 1944 but only the 1st installment was delivered). The cost is 11bn euros (current prices inclucing interest)
3. The question of Compensation to the victims of German army attrocities against civilians in Greece (1941-44) is one more that shadows Greek-German relations. 28mn euros have been attributed to the victims or their descedants of Distomo massacre (10/7/1944) by the Greek courts. Similar cases are still pending: Kalavryta, 1100 / Viannos 453 / Kandanos the whole village / Kontomari the first executions of civilians etc…. A long list of more than 1100 villages and towns as well as the executed at Kaisariani execution field at the suburbs of Athens and more than 0.5mn victims.
4. A full, unreserved express of appology in the way a true LEADER expressed in Warsaw in the 1970s (Willy Brandt).
Then, we can talk about recent debts.
My of my, Kevin, after the Germans murdered millions of people across Europe, you are telling us we’ve been too harsh on them? My, oh my!
The two situations are not comparable obviously. Germany started both WW and killed millions of people. They shouldn’t have been helped in any way after losing. Instead the Allies (Greece among them) helped them. It’s like giving a pardon to a mass murderer (Germany) and hanging a member (Greece) of the family (EU).
George Yiannitsiotis,
Any chance you could quote the sources, I’m just doing some research and trying to verify the facts, understand the whole picture. Any notes on the 1990’s agreement that settled Germany’s debts to Greece?
Also, I lived in Greece for a little while and made some close friends there and it breaks my heart to see people forced out of businesses and into tought situations. What angers me though, is the Greek detachment from the fact that the debt was accumulated by the Greek government making populist decisions increasing pensions and salaries when it could not afford to do so and lying about the economic situation to get into EU and the angry arrogant attitude that Greece has done nothing wrong and that it’s the big bad Germany that should pay for the Greek overspending
Thank you, I appreciate someone who speaks facts and numbers, and has a constructive approach towards this, even if I passionately disagree with your view on it
1. The 1990 agreement involved the two Germanies (West and East) and the four winners of WW II (USSR, USA, UK & France). Therefore, insofar as Greece is concerned, there has been no settlement for the three subjects (WW I & WW II reparations; the “occupation” loans; compensation to the victims of German army attrocities in Greece). For questions you may visit the Hellenic Ministry of Finance web page ( http://www.mnec.gr/?q=en ).
2. The question for Greece was that in 2010 a big bill came on the shoulders of the Greek taxpayers; at that moment we had two options:
a) to stop paying and force our creditors (93% private banks and funds) to compromice a 30%-50% haircut thus making the rest “viable” whilst the public creditors (7%) remained intact
b) to enter the “pretend & extend” game that turned the Greek public debt to rise for 120% of the GDP up to 180%
3. In both cases, austerity measures would have been adopted. However, in case 2a, such a devasted depression would not have taken place. Infact, this would have destroyed many international funds and banks (mainly German and French but also Belgian pension funds etc) but it would not have passed the bill to the eurozone tax payers. The neonazionalist German political elite (Schauble in particular) tricked the German voters by hiding this truth behind the “reckless”, “lazy”, “impotent” Greeks. In that way, they managed to save the private internanional monetary / financial interests to the expense of the Greek people. The nazi attitude of “collective responsibility” found a new expression, turning against the human rights (in particular that of private property) of the Greek citizens, making us “collectively responsible” for public / state debts! That overturns international legitimacy embeded since the League of Nations was formed and the Hellenic Constitutional Order.
4. Now, Germany has the opportunity to change this attitude and tell the truth to the German tax payers. Besides, it can take action to close the old cases (see here https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2015/03/18/parallels-greece-today-german-debt-relief-1953/#comment-259175 ) in order to help Greece in its path towards Liberty and Dignity away from the German-centric eurozone. I consider be the BEST solution now. Otherwise, we all end up as debt-slaves of a handfull financial institutions.-
The real question is not just Greek’s debt which IMHO is just a symptom of the problem, the real question is the long term sustainability of the current EU model which was originally about the free movement of goods and services ie the original Common Market.
As the bureaucrats over the years have tried to bind and tighten the grip on the various nations within the EU rather than recognize,celebrate and build on the varied strengths and weaknesses instead they have tried to stifled that individuality and culture of each nation state into an homogeneous mess for the good of the whole at the expense of the individual nation state whether it be
Remember it all started with France and Germany over coal and steel. In the intervening years, all that has happened is that thru eg EU infrastructure grants, new members have developed better transport infrastructure to get other members states goods and services to those new market places. All the EU has been doing is exploiting new member states resources and growing consumer markets for existing member states. In essence the effect being the richer northern more developed member states have gained more from this relationship and exploitation. A cheaper form of Colonialism and exercising control ie with no cost of war or any destruction of existing infrastructure.
We should be ashamed of the position Greece finds itself in, no matter the cause the effects (none of us are with clean hands in this) it is beyond what should be considered acceptable amongst civilised nations the unprecedented degrading of a sense of Greek nationhood, self worth and dignity………who kicks a person when they are already down.
We cannot mould or change the characteristics of each nation state, that individuality that binds them together and sets them apart from other nations. If eg its in the culture and psyche of Greece to live beyond its means, then either accept that or cut them loose to fend for themselves as they did before the EU.But in all things treat them with dignity, do onto others what you would have them do onto you.
Thank’s for understanding!
A would-be debt-slave (ex. citizen of the Hellenic Republic)
The German post WW2 miracle happened because of the German war debt was forgiven in 1953. German intransigence against writing off the Greek debt is another example of their arrogance and belief in German exceptionalism. Of course, they should write off the Greek debt and give Greece the same opportunity they received in 1953.
It was not forgiven; however, it umdergone a “haircut” of 60% and postponed till the re-unification of Germany. Of course, Germany feels strong enough to neglect its obligation; what a pitty for the Germans: they impose a status on Europe that will end on their heads.
Even after the 1953 agreement, Germany owes to Greece WW II reparations of 7.1bn USD (1938 prices + interest).
The question of the “occupation loans” extracted from the Bank of Greece in 1942 does not come under this “haircut” and stands separately (11bn euros current prices)
At last, the question of compensating the victims of German army attrocities against civilians in Greece (1941-44) is still pending (a pilot case for Distomo victims attributed 28mn euros but Germany blocked the implementation of the Hellenic High Court rulling)
Regardless of which side you are on. The fundamental point being missed by those attacking the Greeks is this. If the Hellenes cannot pay back the interest of what is currently owed how can they be expected to pay back any new loans under the terms dictated by Germany (make no mistake abou it – Germany calls the shots).
Greece must stop extending and pretending, they must stop taking on new loans pretending that the problem is solved, when it hasn’t; when the debt has been made less sustainable on condition of further austerity that even further shrinks the economy; and shifts the burden further onto the have-nots, creating a humanitarian crisis.
Also lets not forget that Germany had debt restruction occur in 1924, 1929, 1932 and then again in 1953.
Unfortunately, under the current EU regime Greece cant have its ‘cake and eat it’. If you find the current debt position and its harsh restructure conditions ‘untenable’ then leave the Euro and possible the EU, default on your debts which are mostly German and reintroduce the drachma, preserve Greek sovereignty and restructure your economy best suited to your economic model. It will be extremely painful for generations but a better Greece may emerge.
Whether that emergent Greece will be a better Greece for Greeks, only they can decide…….but it will be painful. But if you want to stay in the EU club, then you have to play by its rules and unfortunately the rules are set by those that are not in accord or of the same mind set as the Greeks. Greece only represents 2% of the Eurozone economy, so the reality over time is as the Eurozone area grows you will become increasingly marginalised and put under more pressure to increasingly toe the line.
Its not going to get any easier, whether you are in or out of the Euro…………….you are going to have to pay your way whether you like it or not. But there seems to be resistance in Greece to leave the EU club, so one assumes the advantages of membership currently outweigh the disadvantages……….but it appears the cost of membership is a price Greece is still willing to pay. Greece IMHO has lost forever its place and influence at the negotiating table, from now on its EU dictates and you will have sit there and take it, no matter what the cost. Germany may not have won the wars but it is winning the economic fight. It should always have been a question of Germany not Greece leaving the Euro and taking and backing its economic might behind the Mark, leaving a weaker but more sustainable Euro for the rest of Europe to enjoy.
Debt restructuring was a part of the German recovery model, but not all. On reunification of the East Germany defunct state, it rebuilt itself going thru a painful economic restructure which has created the power house we see today. So they have also paid a price, but unfortunately its now Greece’s turn to continue to pay.
In not forgiving Greek debt, Germany has turned the Eurozone into a Zollverein weighted in its favor just like the Hanseatic League. The Eurozone was intended to make Germany European not Europe German!
The eurozone was fit for Germany; not for any other nation in Europe. Therefore, the eurozone paved the way for German dominance over Europe (Hitler’s dream of a new European Order comes true). Now, one can come to the conclusion that “good for Europe is the enslaved German” since in any other case, he creates troubles due to his attitude of suppremacy and the inhumane logic of collective responsibility and collective punishment (nowadays, they do not execute people as they did back in the 1930s-1940s; they simply impose policies of “domestic devaluation” and looting of foreign nations’ public and private property; a new version of Concentration camps production line without gas chambers)
Greece should not be required to pay back any debt ,but should be given a further 320 billion to bring the total to be forgiven to 640 billion,the turks should be kicked out of cyprus,with the island to be run by greece alone,greek terriortries lost in carve up aFTER AUSTRO /HUNGARIAN EMPIRE BREAKUP SHOULD REVERT TO GREECE ,the west should have to pay for the precedents set by greek thought on politics rhetoric ,philosophy,science, art and the way us westerners live today ,i say we are in debt to greece and we must honour that debt.
GREECE MUST BE FORGIVEN THE DEBT END OF STORY,AND IF IN TWENTY YEARS THE COUNTRY CAN REPAY A SMALL AMOUNT FINE ,BUT WE IN THE WEST SHOULD NOT BE DRIVING SUCH A HARD BARGAIN ON THIS,WE JUST GO BACK TO KICKING THE CAN FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD
If you are part if a union you should act what’s good od for one is good fir all ,especially if it happened to me before Germany note that
Too many articles are using percentage to describe Germany debt forgiveness after World War II. According to the 1953 London Debt Agreement, the debt owed by Germany after the Second World War was 16.2 billion marks. The debt forgiveness was reduce to 7 billion marks. Interest on that debt ran between 0 and 5%. It was paid off in 1960. Also, there was debt forgiveness for various Allies as well. Now here is what you have not been told. Germany had to pay the expenses of Western Allies troops who were station in Germany which came to 24 billion marks for 1949 – 1952. Also, it does not include the looting, and robbery by the Western Allies for 1945 -1952 in the billions of marks as well. It does not include what the Russians did in their occupied territory either. The only reason Germany was help was because of the Communist threat from the U.S.S.R. I also like to add there was no compensation for all the rapes committed by American, British, French, and other Allied soldiers. The American soldiers committed more than 32,000 rapes in Europe alone. There was no compensation for the women or their children that were conceived by American soldiers. No compensation for the one million German soldiers killed after the war ended. Tom Brokaw may think they were the greatest generation, but he may not be aware of all the facts.
1. The debt was not in DM but USD in 1938 prices
2. Only for Greece, WW II reparations amount 7.1bn USD (1938 prices + interest) after 1953 “haircut”.
3. This reparations have never been paid to Greece.
4. The brutal German army committed severe attrocities against Greek civilians demolishing more than 1.100 villages and towns around Greece and killing more than 0.5mn people. Germany never compensated the victims and still refuses to proceed on this track.
5. A full, unreserved appology to the Greek people owed by the German state (the arising 4th Reich, successor state of the 3rd Reich) is still pending. Only wise leaders (Willy Brandt, Warsaw 1970s) understood the importance of such move. I do not expect neo-nazionalist ones (Schauble-Merkel) to understand this historic necessity.
6. The German regime was responsible (among others) for the engineered extermination of more than 10mn people at the infamous Concentration Camps during the years 1934-1945 (60% of them Jews; the rest nationals of all over Europe). Your arrogance is the worst guide for the future of your country.
Why stop at the atrocities perpetrated by all sides of the conflict in WW2, go further back in history and most nations have a part of their history which they may have to answer for what happened in conflicts and colonization around the globe. Some have more to answer for than others. Exploitation and slavery of different nations goes back to the earliest records……………all nation states have been touched by it at some point in their history sometimes as the ‘perpetrator’ sometimes as the ‘perpetrated’.
How far back do we have to go to compensate for those acts of aggression on others………..eg just within living memory, the last 100 years, 200 years, last 1000 years…..2000 years?
War is war and terrible things happen, I’m in no way condoning any of it…..no-one is with clean hands here. But there are some atrocities that cannot be justified and should never be forgotten those extreme acts of inhumanity that shocked the world…..and there are a few acts of genocide within living memory. How can any form of compensation right those ‘wrongs’? Man’s inhumanity to man.
1. Sorry, Greeks had not attacked anybody. We were attacked first by Italy via the Greek-Albanian border (28/10/1940) and then, the Germans attacked us at the Greek-Bulgarian border (6/4/1941) and crossed into Greece from the Greek-Yugoslav border the next day. They occupied Greece for almost 4 years and caused material damage evaluated to 16.2 bn USD (1938 prices); in 1953 we agreed to a haircut that dimished it to 7.1bn USD (1938 prices) and to postpone our claim till the re-unification of Germany. We are not signatory party at the so-called 2+4 agreement that led eventually to the resurection of the Reich; consequently, it does not apply to WW II reparations that Germany has to pay to Greece.
2. Greece paid the last penny of the “liberation loans” (1823-4) in 1970 though it undergone 4 bankrapties the period in between. We have never deceived our creditors as Germany does regarding WW II reparations to Greece and the extracted (in 1942) from the Bank of Greece “occupation loans” (11 bn euros inclucing interest – current prices).
3. Now we are at our knees from an economic point of view and the neo-nazionalist German political-economic elite thinks this a good opportunity to deceive us regarding the above. Time to set the record straight: let’s agree on the fact that pacta sunt servanda and start clearing each one’s books without writting off a cent.
George, I’m with you, the Greeks and others EU states including Spain, Portugal, Ireland deserve a better deal on the restructuring of the debunked banking system. No matter what method is used to refinance the banks and repay the loans it will ultimately be met by the consumer, either in increased taxes, banks charges,reduction in pension reserves thru reduced dividends receipts,etc ultimately the consumer will pay in some way shape or form at some point.
What should really happen is that the debts and loans associated with the rescue of the banking system in Europe should be aggregated into one pot secured against the assets of the banks and revenue streams for the future and a banking levy charged on all banks to pay off the loans. The banks would have to be restructured, so in the future the retail side of the banks dealing with customers is isolated from the riskier investment arm, so that should we have another banking collapse as in 2008, the deposits, savings etc of the retail side are protected and the investment arm can fail…………that still may have implications for investments, pension funds etc.
It may push the more speculative investment arms of banks to operate outside of Europe and reduce the various states GDP invisible exports……but it protects the retail banking and redefines what is sovereign debt and what is commercial debt which may arise in different sovereign states subject of course to the future application, control and regulation on a pan european wide basis of the banking system. Whilst each nation state tries to attract business from other member states by undercutting each other eg more relaxed regulation. lower taxes……the risk profile changes as a result accordingly when things go terribly wrong and the costs may be just to high as Iceland found out, and what did it do was not to recognize the banking debts and defaulted.
After all, Should Germany forgive or no the debt of Greece? and Should Greece leave the Eurozone?
Either Germany or Greece should leave the Eurozone both are putting additional strains on the financial stability of other member states……………….Germany’s economic might is too strong for the rest of Europe in a single currency and Greece is too weak to compete in a strong Euro.
Right!
Time for Germany to leave. The others are too little-weak to compete with Germany in a monetary union.
Of course Grrek debt should be forgiven. As your article says it was only a small
percentage of the bail outs that directly benefitted the Greek economy via investments. Otherwise it was mostly payment of interest to the European banks
ECB included. Germany has been the greatest beneficiary of the rebuilding of the
Continent which they destroyed. For the entire 20th century we have been paying for that nation appeasing them because we are all scared of them. Of what they might do to us. Since they starved people to exhaustion, then put them in gas chambers and then gassed them to death, of course we are scared of them.
Not like German debt. Rather, creditors (mostly the IMF, ECB and northern banks) have to take a haircut on their greek assets, just as if it were a commercial bankruptcy. The foolhardy investors have to get wiped out in order for markets to be efficient.
Then, Greek debt should be restructured to make dealing with it more sustainable. So…the sustainability of it all in the most important part
Here’s an idea: holidays in Greece to help the local economy. http://www.visitgreece.gr
YES by all means and even Ireland’s, Spain’s, Portugal’s and Italy’s as well. Are WE not ALL Europeans ? the Debt that was created where by corrpt officials, Government, Banksters and the like, of which they should be brought to real justice that is NOT currupt and be sent to where they deserve to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtr6QYFvnFo
yes
Should Germany invade Greece?
Νο.of course not…Greeks didn´t kill 10Mio people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That´s only a german privelege!!
How do you know?!.
Of course it should !
No…its better to forgive FOR ONCE MORE Germanys like 1953 after it had killed 11 million people
Yeap. If they pay all chamerians for genocide that greeks made on them
No, I don’tt want Greece be like Germany. I wish more dignity for Greece.
http://globalnews.ca/news/2092075/the-case-for-greece-when-it-forgave-germanys-debt/
Partly.
No – not at all.
Like in 1953
.
Definitely not, they should stay in the Eurozone and let the tax payers in the other 18 Euro countries pay off their debts..
Who next, Italy, Portugal or Spain ?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/forget-greece-portugal-is-the-eurozones-next-crisis-2015-06-24
Do your homework: German debt was reduced, not “forgiven”, they paid a lot over the years with the last payment of @ €70 million in 2010, more before. Germany also had intellectual property seized. This anti-German schtick is tedious & misguided. Greece received @ €100 billion debt relief in 2012, the largest in history.
Para começar deve ser perdoada a dívida grega ….
I would say yes for the people that are suffering anywhere in Europe and no for the politicians etc who drove us into this situation
YES !!!
yes sure, but after that they realy have to deal with the country’s inner problems, or on long term, nothing is going to change.If this system remain, with this oligarchy, in a few years it’s gonna start again.
Yes
How we say in Greece “μας τα έχετε κάνει τσουρέκια “
I forgive Rockefellers and Rothchilds! May their power of money rest in peace! Somewhere at the end of a far away Galaxy! Let’s now celebrate LIFE! Thank you! In Love & Peace!
Yes in order to help the people that need more, children, the elder, the unemployed, not to help the banks, the church, the big finantial groups. That money would be used to improve the hospitals, the factories or industries to start again working and employ more person. No money for bankers and politician they already destroyed what they got from the BCE, the money is not to be used to pay debts resulting from the FMI. i THINK in the near or future years, countries like Greece, Portugal and Italy will be invaded by refugees too from Mid East and Africa and nobody is doing something about this.
They are two option
a) To forgive the debt,
If Germany forgive the dept Greece will continue its way in EU,
b) Not to forgive it
Under this circumstances Greece is under very heavy economic pressure and it will find its way to go out from the EU or the EU it self will not exist anymore.
Let’s keep things in perspective here.
German debt was forgiven due to the horrors of World War 2 – most of the country was in complete ruins.
Greece is in this situation because of their own ineptitude, laziness, corruption and economic mismanagement. They want free money with no strings attached. That is simply not how it works when you loan money from somebody else.
The absolute gall of them to keep asking for more free money without making any kind of effort to put their own house in order.
Now it is clear that they will never be able to pay back their complete debt, so a partial write-off of their debt is understandable. But first they must prove to the rest of Europe that they can manage their own economy properly. If there have been improvements in X amount of years, they can have the rest of their debt forgiven.
The struggle for Ukraine is more serious than ISIS and Greece debt crisis. Putin wants to change the peace established in 1991 and after World War II.Ukraine has got a democracy. If this fails, there is no reason to try and do democracy any place else. Seriously. Please watch this short video about the conflict in Ukraine: how it all started and the role of Russia in this war.Please share this video with your friends and contacts in the US and EU. Let people know the truth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA_DtVWJsco&feature=youtu.be
Yes
why not…
yes
A big chunk obviously! But more important is that the Eurozone either gets rid of the Euro soonest or moves on quickly to a full #fiscalunion #EUisus
Greek debt, is greek’s banks debt, or greek’s people debt?!
As in Portugal, it is said that the “debt” is responsability of people… But were the banks and the government who created the debt!!!
And that hole in public finances wasn’t created to help people or give public services to citizans… was created because they used public money to “help” major private companies…
Now the austeraty lies with the weak ones… rather than on the powerful who go to earn millions with this crisis !
Read this interview with Philippe Legrain:
The title: “Aid to Portugal and Greece were redemptions to German banks”
Translate the page!!!
http://www.publico.pt/ECONOMIA/NOTICIA/AJUDAS-A-PORTUGAL-E-GRECIA-FORAM-RESGATES-AOS-BANCOS-ALEMAES-1635405?PAGE=-1
If we want to be fair,YES.We shouldn’t forget that Greece as other countries was totally destroyed by the Germans.And although we were extremely poor during the decade of the 50s as our factories were destoyed and all the structure was not existing still we helped and forgave the Germans and didn’t wish to hurm them although we should after what they have done.Of course they still do,they didn’t change and the nazist inside of them woke up again if it ever slept..I don’t understand how come we helped Germany during the 50s eventhough the politicians and the German nation supported them to destroy the world and now Greece that is destroyed by the politicians as they are thieves but we didn’t know and didn’t hurt anyone get so slaughtered by foreign people and coutries.I completely believe that foreign people and their coutries knew that we were going to hell but didn’t tell us so that now they can steal our land and the wealth of our land.And what makes them……………………………….
No. And Greek case today is not comparable to German one from 1953.
They can not repay it back. It’s not the fault of the Greek people, they didn’t know what their former politicians did. The debt should be asked from the people who signed the contracts for the loans and if they can’t re-pay them they have to go to jail.
There is a huge risk of Greece to get out of the EU and turn it’s head towards Russia. Do you want that, EU? That’s what happened with Bulgaria in 1945 and the result was a huge disaster for my country.
YES !
Yes!
Yes !! Why not??
If we suppose that Greeks were lazy ( which is not true according to stats) and created their debt , Germany was much worse than lazy during world war 2 , in fact we wish they had been lazy in 1938
yes
Should? MUST!
Forget the morality and think about the practicality.
Greek debt MUST be forgiven, because it does not have the ABILITY TO REPAY.
Forgiveness can taken many forms, including negligible interest rates, longer loan terms, repayments only on budget surpluses, or straight-up debt forgiveness.
But it will be forgiven and forgotten one way or another, because it is not possible to repay.
It’s just a pity slow learners like Wolfgang Schäuble take so long to understand this and a pity that newspapers in Germany are not questioning the likelihood of Greece making repayments on a sustained basis.
Yes, period.
Yes of course!!!
We desesperaly need pragmatism and solidarity in this surreal Europe. The answer is of course.
Where is my drachma? In the coin museum. This is the right answer. For people under 40 drachma is part of our adolescence. Personally talking, I have never taken a salary in drachma. I have never used it to pay for accounts. I remember it when I was a student and I was living with my parents.I had a completelly different perspective of money at that age. Now I know I have to climp the tough stairs but I think I have no choice. In Greece and in Italy – as far as I know from my relatives- there are many people who want to return to local currencies. Of course pressure is too much to make reforms soon but it needs time to change long lasting systems in both countries
There is no point in forgiving any debt of, or entering into any agreement with, a country, which so far has shown little intent to honour any previous agreements.
This situation was planned since the introduction of the EURO. They knew that in order to occupy amd control these beautiful countries they needed to create a currency which will bankrupt them. This is an Economic War. It’s happening all over the world. The strong countries are controlling the poor little countries thus they have cheap employment and in the case of the northern EU countries cheap vacation spots just like America and Canada have Dominican Republic, Cuba and Mexico they have Portugal, Spain, Greece and Italy.
What we need is a developing policy. We have to give back the money we borrowed, but we need jobs to be able to repay. I don’t think that the debt should be forgiven. I think that EU haw to really think through a way out of debt, instead of giving us more of it.
yes
YES
Render unto Germans that which is Germany’s. Render unto Greeks that which is Greece’s. In other words, parallel currencies. Doesn’t matter if you call it the drachma or use some other system. Barter? Bitcoin? Gold? Let the financiers bury the financiers and the living get on with their lives!
Yes. Europe have to restore greece to the previous state before entering to the union – if you brake the old you should pay the new
They should pay back the hard way, then the people would have learnt how to demand accountability from their politicians and government at large…
Is there any other option at this point?
YES ! the GREEK debt if the part can not be deleted should be lengthened so that we as European citizens to cope! the GREEK sovereign debt surged from a lack of common European economic policy and supervision!
no
The term “forgiven” it’s wrong,all countrie’s debts have to be investigated whether are legal or not,the part of their debt that caused by banks and corruption it is illegal and should not be payed by the people
The Greek Debt that would be accepted by Europeans to be forgiven is all the DEFENSE RELATED EXPENDITURE in Greece from 1974 onward’s which is as a result of the absence of a EU DEFENSE FORCE, which would have provided Greece and Cyprus military security against the British State Sponsored Turkish military aggression in EU member’s Cyprus and Greece since 1974. The Greek Defense Related Expenditure comes to more than € 340 billion , that’s not taking into account the lost economic growth in the Greek and Cypriot economies due to this vile British/ Turkish State activities against Greece and Cyprus since 1974.
Of course. With really help. Geece has to grow without making more debts.
Yes of course
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2015/04/24/national-debt-tops-18-trillion-guess-how-much-you-owe/
How much does Greece owe?
18 000 000 000 000 000 000 $?
Why everything must be white or black; The debt crises in Europe is just the cape stone of deeper fundamental structural problems. One to start with, is the dead end that the neo liberal thinking has brought. We must start considering another economic model that will alleviate the European people and especially the weaker economies. Dept relief and restructuring must come as a part of a general social progress and economic development plan that will be applied for all EU country members. Because what now is happening is that the current policies are bringing up once again the European ethnocentrism that will inevitably lead to the dismantlement of the union.
Yes. We are united – in varietate concordia
No i work hard to pax taxes and i dont think its fair
Yes – but only after mechanisms are in place to avoid getting back to this situation
The debt : No – The interest : Yes ! And the payment of the debt should be restructered .
No !!! Also do not forget who TEATCH you reed and write , who heal you and who let you come down from trees , who give you democracy …. SO RESPECT GREECE AND SHOW US THAT YOU KNOW HOW TO RESPECT !!!!!
WE ARE ENOUGH PROUD TO ASK FOR FORGIVE … FORGIVE YOU ASK WEN YOU MAKE A MISTAKE … NOT WEN SOME POLITICIANS ARE DIRTY AND FRIENDS WITH GERMANS TRYING TO MAKE GERMAN THE CAPITAL CITY OF EUROPE !!!
WAKE UP PEOPLE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO EAST AND WEST GERMANY , TO HUNGARY , TO TSECH , TO ROMANIA AND MANY OTHERS WHO WORK IN GERMANS FACTORY AND SPEND THE MONEY IN GERMANS SHOPS !!!!!! THEY WORK SUNDAYS ,THEY ARE DEAD !!!!!!
Yes
Nope that was then and tis is nos.
İs this a serious question?
Of course it should!!!!
They killed thousands here,during WWII!
They destroyed all the Greece!
Additionally,they steal all the gold reserve of Greek Central Bank when leaving Greece,which is 4 or 5 times our debt!
They pay back,only the first two installments and then nothing!
Time to boycott OTE,
Time to boycott LIDL,
Time to boycott,every German company!
At least,from now on!
#OXI
#NoDealWithΚλευτες
#NoDealWithPlunderers
#NoDealWithBlackmailers
#NoDealWithWWIIInvaders
NO!!!!!!
Yes
The interest yes and the original creditors arrested!
You always ask the same question and expect different answer.
No. They r lazy as hell!
Yes. The dept issue is a potential global threat and must be co decided to be relieved at least on a European level. Debt is also the means of degrading sovereignty and a direct attack to democracy and the power of politics over markets. Greek dept was greatly enlarged in order to save the european banking system and through tough neo liberal policies which have spread around Europe and have created suffocation to the economy and the people. Debt is the means of control . We should defend European freedom. It is not about forgiving the debt it is about realising what dept really is and for what reason it is created.
It is not a question of forgiving greeks or anyone else, it is question of sheer common sense. This model is completely wrong. The responsbilities MUST be shared by those involved in any operation. We’ve been bailing out banks and putting the burden on the people. There were mistakes on both sides why should be the contribuable allways asked to pay the price…?
All debts should be writed off and the system restarted with clear rules to everyone. Politicians should be held accountable for their misuse of public money. Democracy should be effective, any decision that may affect the living conditions of the people should subject to referendum. Tax heavens should be abolished. Responsability and solidarity should be the main drivers on the political agenda…!
YES !!!
In which planet did you say you live in?
Source: OECD
https://agenda.weforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/PaulsChart.png
How about we punish the banks for once for making lousy investments? Let them make loses!
The Greek debt should be forgiven, their state finances reformed and restructured, and the banks should be given a painful lesson that taxpayer’s money is not there for them.
no
what about forgive part of the debt of portugal and ireland ? it is more fair to them
And since the united states gave billions to rebuild europe after wwII should our debt also be forgiven? ??
No They should pay!
As a common economic area is possible, with 19 different fiscal policies, with 19 different public debts with different interest rates for each public debt, and where within this zone there are a few northern countries with air moralists (Germany, Holland, Luxembourg) than with their offshores go to steal taxes to other member states?
It is obvious that this can not function.
Don’t ask us . Ask the corporations that were given immunity for tax evasion in billions and the Bankers who purposely lent money to save their banks, and the military industries. Without them we would have a normal debt
In every country, the central bank issues money that lends to the state at a low rate.
In EMU, this is not the case. ECB, is not allowed to lend directly to member states, but via private banks. This lending rate (ECB->Prv. Banks) is around 0.3%. Private banks lends money to state. In Greece, the interest rate for this is (was) around 3.5 to 4 %. So, in effect for each Euro Greek and other EMU states borrow, they need to pay back around 1.05 Euros. This means that EMU states should operate with a constant surplus on GDP of around 5% at minimum, JUST to break even. Such constant rates are simply not possible, and this is the reason that debt in the whole EMU rises constantly.
I’m Greek. Greece is in big shit, but among other reasons, Euro as curency is an important one. Euro is a currency that inherently causes debt.
Simple as that.
BR to all
Nikos
Forgiven of the Greek debt means a big robbery for EU countries.
Definitely no!
Yes, BUT only after they clean their goverment up !
no
of course!!!
If the Greeks actually reform and start paying their loans….I will not exclude forgiving a part of their debt.My opinion anyway.
Yes
Apples and Oranges, both fruit but unmistakingly different. Wikipedia explains just what and how much the (West) German war debt was forgiven and how they paid even more after the unification. What’s even more key is that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction. So, VW, BMW, Mercedes, and other manufactured goods were being exported…. Greece doesn’t have that industrial base and it’s people are not portrayed as being industrious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts
Lets see some debts that were forgiven:
Citigroup ($2.513 trillion),
Morgan Stanley ($2.041 trillion),
Barclays ($868 billion),
Goldman Sachs ($814billion),
JP Morgan ($391 billion),
BNP Paribas ($175 billion),
Dresdner Bank ($135 billion)
Then again, these are holy banks. God forbid we let them suffer for their mistakes.
It’s all a massive con. Who actually leant the money to all these countries? Who gets the interest payments…..banks?
The Europeans should show solidarity to Greece. And Greece should reform its economy. Even if the debt is forgiven the Greek economy creates deficits. It is a country with a big counter-productive public sector, with corrupt officials, huge bureaucracy that undermines the productivity. The Greek government should be forced by Europe to further reform and modernise the state and Europe should support Greece to move along the path of democratic reforms. Greece is now a failed state that urgently needs structural reforms. So lets support Greece to make the necessary changes and then lets talk about the forgiveness of the debt.
Sir,
Well said. Let’s help Greece reform its institutions and its economic and social infrastructure. No doubt the country needs to be brought forward to Northern European standards of governance. It is part of the EU memoranda and not least its spirit of brotherhood to lift up those of the countries that need it.
Greece is one of the countries that needs it the most and ways need to be found so such assistance is most effective. That is where I suggest European efforts need concentrate rather than arguments as to debt relief or not.
Using as a blue print the U.S. Federal system or to a smaller extend the UK.
The unfortunate thing with the EU is that we have to cater to the German arrogance. So long as they disregard their debt to the world, so long as they refuse to repent for the sins of their existence it will be VERY difficult for Europe to make much progress.
OF COURSE
Ιn English….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9idwG6jCPbg
Was forgiving the Nazis wrong? Here is my question…..
One time can be forgiven,but not for the second time.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes!!!
Yes…
Yes!
yes….and the corrupted politicians and banksters put in jail.
Yes.
It s the wrong question. Do we want banks and corporations to rule states? Or not. This is the right question.
Yes. IMF and ECB doesn’t need those money
???? They are all with amnesia ??? Greece recently had a greater debt relief than any other in human history …
I don’t know if this is called amnesia, but, making a statement as you did, without knowing the facts, is total ignorance. Are you aware WHO participated in this debt relief you are reffering to?
ECB: No
IMF: No
IFSF: No
It was mostly debt held by Greek banks, Greek pension funds, Greek social security institutions and private bond holders (them being mostly Greeks too).
Further than that, guess what: Greek banks got another 50b recapitalization aid, right after the PSI, again owed now by Greek citizens.
You are seeing the tree and loose the forest (Amazon size forest…)
The onus falls on the lenders equally, perhaps seeking high returns from unsustainable resources should be penalized as well. A restructuring is completely necessary, as asphyxiating an already decimated and further contracting economy in order to create growth is oxymoronic. It’s as if I lent money to someone and because they can’t pay I lock them up in my basement until they repay…
The greeks can not be forgiven until they perform serious structural reforms, like changing the tax authority
Yesssss!!!!!!!!!
Nai,yes,nai.
If they debt is written off, then all the countries who have put money towards the bail outs will loose money, which means that the people of those countries will have to pay extra tax to pay for Greece, they might not have had to yet but thats because the money is still to be paid back. Is it fair that the other people of Europe will have to pay for Greece?
This is European Union, its not only for one or two years its a wonerful vision and if its going to last for long then maybe another European country comes in the same position as Greece and then it will be time for Greek people to pay more taxes. It has happened in the USA a lot of times. Its called solidarity and it layes on a long term plan that should work like that.
Yes, of course!
The political union of union does not forgive but it enables states to do more and better.
Those who do not understand that cannot accept the mutualisation of debt.
Yup
…..1953 was after WW2……and Greece now is after THE PARTY / 2004-2009……with ~ 330 bn.E’s….and still ~ 80 bn. due!! /2017!!!!……xaxaxaxaxaxa…..Party and WW2…..???xaxaxaxaxaxa
No, EU means equality not to pay for some lazy people. Forgiving Greece, means to forgive the debt of all EU countries.
Do you see the white text “where is my Rahma?”? Rahma means in Arabic merci.
Lets not forget that the harsh austerity measures adopted by greek governments didnt improve the economy but infact worsen the debt situation. That was admitted by the IMF on several occasions. On top of that, greeks didnt borrow money for free! There is considerable interest that is being paid ever since. Part of the debt, that part that was accumulated due to the unsuccesfull guiney pig attempts from the eu at the expense of the greek people should be written off. The rest we should pay it off.
What debt ??
The Greek debt must be restructured and haircut in order to be viable. I think that is obvious the dead end of the previous MoU in terms of productive development in Greece. EU should proceed with drastic haircut of Greek public debt along with the structural reforms implementation on behalf of Greek governement.
Ut should…. Buy I prefer the Germans to pay up not only Greece and must not forget they dud not pay fid the first war. Must be nice to cause the death of 100000000 yes 100million people and get away with it
50th time this page is asking this question, why shouldn’t it be ?? Germany killed millions across Europe had its debt forgiven, what has Greece done that its debt should not be forgiven ??
yes
It would help a member of the EU to get back on its feet and keep us all united!!!
Not at all. Greece must perform much needed reforms to become a modern effective state supporting its economy to flourish. Greek debt is not a result of any devastating war.
Yes!!
Wie ist das mit den Äpfeln und Birnen, die man nicht miteinander vergleichen / verwechseln soll?
If we are talking about a European union based on fairplay equality and solidarity YES! If we have inevitably found ourselves in an immutable path of building a not to strong to lead but stronger than others to follow fourth reich then what is the point of asking people in the first place? People seem not to matter! People got left out and forgotten from the bigger picture! They have meticulously created fear between races and in turn we are now experiencing a rise of extreme nationalism and racism all around Europe if not the rest of the world! It’s a fact that Germany s debt was forgiven back in 1953! No point asking anyone. Just doing it is the way forward! Fairplay! Instead Germans fins et.al have cultivated an illbased idea to their citizens via biased media that the Greeks ( who BTW are not even close to the top of the debt to gdp list) are responsible for the unsustainability of the debt, they are tax evading sloths who basically live to make the rest of Europeans pay their price! Just today in a beautiful island in Greece, tourists from Germany left bills unpaid at restaurants with the excuse that Greeks ough them money!! obviously this is smth that you won’t see on their national news or read in their national tabloids. YES!
Definately!!!!!
Greek debt is a product of greek economy’s structural malfunctions, social disorder & externally imposed corruption!! So a huge debt restructuring is needed combined with real deep reforms in terms of economical, governing configuration, social and educational anamorphosis!!
Greece must go through a debt restructuring if not being forgiven the whole debt. The Greek burden is practically not viable and if not now that the 3d refferendum is ongoing and the deal is done in a few years Europe is going to face the same problem. So either Grexit is coming or a debt restructuring must take place. Helping Greece in that way will send a message on the rest of the world that Europe is United and also bring closer The south to the North of Europe as well as inhance solidarity. Comoaring the Greek economy with that of Ireland, Spain, or Portugal and keep insisting on austerity for the Greek exonomy will only make the problem worse. One more extreme solution would be to finance the Greek economy increase the investements in order to bring growth and as long Greece has enough growth so that is able to start repaing the debt it can start doing it. Anyway the deal brought some more time for Greece and the rest of Eurozone countries to keep negotiating and lets hope they will reach a viable solution that will improve Greece’s position and bring back trust as well as Unite the countries.
Why not the portuguese one?
It is not the right question! The real debts can not be forgiven! The problem with my country is that the debts that are under negotiations are not real! Are debts tecnically made with the purppse of taking economical advantages through the interests! All these money said that are given to us..do not come to real economy but go to banks that they take loans from one side to pay other loans to others and so on…This situation must stop! The real target of this story is to concess the national properties to private funds that want to controll the nations! For this reason there is such terms in the requested memorandums! Previous corrapted goverment had sigmed such agreement with a Luxemberg fund….that -what a surprise – president was Soible of Germany!!We do not ask toforgive our debts because these are already paid off! We ask to stop the economical violence against my country and also to the other countries of South like Portugal,Spain,Italy that are same victims of the same struggling economical model of Nord .EEC is consisted from many countries ..not from Germany and its ‘friends” since second world war!
Forgive is a seven letter word.
‘We are Germans!’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afl9WFGJE0M
Yes !
YES!!
Yes, who ‘s going to fight Angela ? François ? Waf ….
YES !
Yes
Should you guys looking for job ?
NO
Yes but with conditions
All europeans contributions have been stolen by greeks. This is called robbery.
Greek debt was forgiven in 2011.
Yes, of course!
Actually is not about “forgiveness”. It’s all about those who created the “debt crisis”. It is them that should pay. Banksters, funds, brokers, etc.
Politicians just helping them to carry the weight of the “bail-out” to the shoulders of the citizens who pay the costs.
YES
Yes.No other way
As a Greek it would be pointless. In 30 years we will be in the same position anyways. We need reforms, the debt is not the problem, it’s the result of it.
No forgiveness otherwise the other countires have the same right
No, they lied to get into the EU, they lied to get the first bailout, let them sink, you cut out a cancer to prevent it spreading.
Yes. There’s no other solution. Eitherwise, all will suffer!
It’s not so easy to punish Greek people as thiefs. There are 7 main directions (European banks which having Greek assets , military weapons from Europe especially Germany,…) where loans given elsewhere but people.Only 4% went to the real economy.”A baby is not crying for no reason”.
Yes, it should
YES
Two questions related to that one:
1) Should first Greek political system be transformed and evolved towards a more open and transparent one?
2) When the WWII Germany’s debt was forgiven, was it good both for Germany and the whole European society?
Yes it should because it was created without the informed consent of the Greek people (thanks to the debt-hiding scheme of Goldman Sachs) and was multiplicated due to the repeated austerity plans (absence of growth increases the debt to gdp ratio).
yea pls tell should war crimes be forgiven ????? and economic not??? is money more than human lives????
Germany had killed 25.000.000 people. Greece has killed nobody. Therefore Greece does not qualify for debt forgiveness.
http://www.eudebtclock.org/
Yes Greece owns so much to EU…..
No because it is the Greek political regime consisted of Putin agents that do not allow economic freedom. They want to use Greece as a cancer of Europe and the same time to offer strategic sectors to Russia and China. Just check the pathetic state of Greece in economic freedom to realise that giving money to that regime is the equialent to giving money to a dictator to finance the opression mechanism against the people
http://liberalcreta.pblogs.gr/2015/03/greece-the-goebbels-of-syriza-are-working-for-disaster.html
Of course
I’m a bit bored of the anti-German crap. The debt is owed to many more countries than Germany…many of whom cannot afford to write off the Greek debts.
YES but they should allow EU police to investigate their corruption . They should destroy their corruption and crime otherwise in just 15 Years time situation is going to become similar . Greeks can’t pay back , all should accept that. Their dept is 175.1% of GDP (2013) , that is imposible to pay back .
Corruption and crime : Problem , you should understand Greeks ! You borrow money to corrupt country like Greece or Croatia and those money just disperse . The only thing that is left is a huge debt to poor folk . Poor folk is than just a slave to the banks but rich-corrupt people send money to secret accounts in Switzerland and other countries. Than you have problem that poor people are very angry just because they have to pay back a huge amount of cash and they have to spend life in poverty . EU should help corrupt countries in their fight against corruption and tax evasion , how much in tax has been collected from example Apple and Google in Greece = 0.00 $ . European System of Central Banks should write off debts , arrest gangsters and help poor countries to become free of slavery . http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
BBC – tax evasion : Mr Henry said his $21tn is actually a conservative figure and the true scale could be $32tn. A trillion is 1,000 billion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097
Greek cash is in Swiss banks . The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was €28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
http://www.eudebtclock.org/
Germany owns more than Greece. Italy owns more than Greece, Belgium owns more than Greece, Spain owns more than Greece. But it’s a good thing (for the EU and Germany) because more money is created from the loans’ interest. So greater loan interests equals more money to be repaid back. And all countries pay back their loans even Greece. So the EU “help” doesn’t come for free, but it’s a high risk investment. So Germany, France and other EU members are not doing any favours to each other, they invest their money
through loans. The real free money Greece would get would get it only in case it declared bankruptsy, because then the EU would have to send humanitarian aid.
Greece did exactly what Italy did to get in the Eurozone. Played with the numbers to mask their deficit with the knowledge and blessings of the EU.
News Flash: All countries use the same or similar techniques to lower their deficit on the papers. Even Germany. So Greece did not fool anybody to get in the Euro. EU constitutions and country members were well aware of their finacial state of every single euro candidate country.
Greece it’s just the first country that fell under the weight of its debt and bad decisions. This situation is not permanent, so when Greece regain its stability we will wait and see which countries are next. We will be pointing fingers then and we will blame them for the situation in Europe along with our “European brothers” that their turn hasn’t come up yet.
For now we will blame Greece. It seems that everybody feels better when there is a scapegoat and it’s not them.
Yes, it does. There is no other way. Greece’s debt is not possible to be paid. The law says banks’, politicians’ and elites’ loans must must not be paid with taxes on people’s. It is the same for Portugal, but its PM is not Tsipras, Passos Coelho should leave the gov.
take the money from the corruption accounts and bring back to Greece
Και μόνο η εικόνα της τράπεζας δείχνει σε τι κωλοχανειο ζούμε….
Yes, of course. We are Humans with Heart. Criminal people hidden with a financial mask are robbing the world. Stop those demoniac beings. Only Greece? And Portugal, Italy, Spain?
Yes!! Since they believe that bank loans do not get erased and we have to pay them back the loans we have taken from them, then THEY MUST PAY BACK THE TWO BANK LOANS WE WERE FORCED TO GIVE THEM!! THEY HAVE OUTSTANDING LOANS TO PAY OFF!!
You eurocrats suck!
Yes!
Yes and Germany should pay war reparations for starving hundreds of thousands of Greek people.
In this CASE -ROMANIA MUST BORROW MONEY AND THEN REFUSE LIKE GRECE TO RETURN IT !
What if Greece’s debt was forgiven. And along the way we end up with yet again with debt? I don’t trust any of my corrupt politicians. My trust in them is non existent. After all the publicity my country has gotten in the past two months, I see that they are not only corrupt but insufficient, hot aired theorists who have bought shame to me and my fellow countrymen
Yes
no
Since most loans to Greece (meant to help managing its debt) ended up in private institutions, these should give a hand, at the very least
Absolutely! Whatever mistakes the Greeks made, they are not comparable to what Germany did.
No go to work !!!
Yes .debt must be canceled and must be international investigation
Bollocks
Investigation for how this debt has been doubled in 8 years , whom has get comissions and whom has gave those commision s.
The 60% of this bebt the 8 years was armaments from Germany and Siemens electronics, more than 84 billions.
Who gave the commision and whom take it , all in prison
ΝΑΙ !!!
yes
If someone wants his money back the only way is to help Greece grow again …Haircuts with endless austerity leads in loosing money
Hell yes !
cant say abt this cz it depends on Govt. and its policies
all the debts must be canceled, the euro must be stoped, the war must be finished… game over, try again…
Πολύ καλοοοο
Obviously!
Yes
240 out of 260 euros bail out money went to German, French etc. banks. Extremely high interest was charged for the loans. IMF made huge mistakes ruining the Greek economy as the 3rd bailout is doing now. So how much of Greek debt is actually Greek I wonder.
The biggest failure of Europe was to allow the Germanic cultured countries of Europe to dominate the discussion(s) over how best to resolve the EuroZone debt crisis.
A Europe where only Germanic problem solving diktats are tabled for discussion…and where only Germanic problem solving techniques are presented – what kind of Europe could this be but a Hermanized one!
Greek, Latin, Celtic and Balto-Slavic peoples of Europe cannot permit the Germanic countries of Europe to dominate Evropi – economically or culturally!
Greece was brought to its knees by both world wars. Germany borrowed money to finance world war2 from Greece and did not pay back as promised.Furthermore greek manpower was wiped out by german executions of whole villages. Greece forgave german debt…..yet both germans taking decisions on behalf of the whole of europe insist on being overly harsh on greece…..so what forgiveness are we talking about? pro
Greece should be given a 15 year grace period on its debt and also be allowed to grow rapidly as it did during the period 1955-1980. The IMF/EU remedies of the past 5-6 years and the incompetent implementation by all Greek governments, more so the present one have wrecked the economy. A restart is required with emphasis placed on pro-business policies. Milton Friedman-like!
YES, BUT only provided the country gets “DESiNFECTED from corruption, oligarchy,and does get SUPERVISED by an international supervisor BODY, BUT not serving any vested interests…LIKE why were Portugal Greece “Forced” to by the submarines for which they still can NOT pay???We need NEW clean persons to CLEAN up the mess…YES, VArufakis is an academic that says the inconvinient truth…PLEASE EU, STOP encouraging MISADMINISTRATION…JA Herr Schaubele, WIR haben die Schnauze voll…Wir wollen auch LEBEN…
As it has been the case in the past, for the whole of the 20th century in fact we were made to pay for Germany. Please, let us not forget that.
Yes
The debt was privat,but the Banks turn it to public with the help of corupt Greek politicians. Now Greeks have to pay for money they never had in their pockets, with a few of exeptions. The Greek people arr not responsible for the miscalculations of German and France banks. And if whe want justice then Germany should pay Greece their second world war lohn who is now over 200 billion euros of worth. That lohn was taken with force from the Greek National Bank at the time as Grreece was occupied during WW2. Thats justice!!!!
The debt was privat,but the Banks turn it to public with the help of corupt Greek politicians. Now Greeks have to pay for money they never had in their pockets, with a few of exeptions. The Greek people arr not responsible for the miscalculations of German and France banks. And if whe want justice then Germany should pay Greece their second world war lohn who is now over 200 billion euros of worth. That lohn was taken with force from the Greek National Bank at the time as Grreece was occupied during WW2. Thats justice!!!!
No we dont want our debt to be forgiven! We want to pay it all cash…. But first Germans should give to Greeks the war compensations!!!!
NO!ab
Well yes, Greece lied, Germany made a massacre.
It is obvious Greece deserves a torment for her acts!
It’s unfair for the people to pay for the mistakes and the corruption of the politicians and their co-operators both in Greece and abroad.
Yes, the debt has to be forgiven. Greece was one of the countries who forgave the German debt in 1953. It’s Germany’s turn now !
Yes, absolutely.
The debt is not viable and it was largely accumulated as a result of ”business” transactions between corrupt greek politicians and german, french, american, greek etc. oligarchs, at the expense of the greek citizens. Today it is not viable and it keeps increasing as due to the austerity policy, because the GDP is dropping every year!
please rephrase the question: what we, the Greeks, ask for is not about forgiveness for the mistakes we did. It is about solidarity and support within a community. It is about helping the victims of a war, based not on guns but on money, WW3. As the humanity did after WW2, especially when help was given to those who have started the war (this is the only connection with the money that Germany ows to Greece). WW3 is on and Greece is just a small battle, maybe even a not crucial one. What we, the Greeks, ask for is a fair treatment based on circumstances.
So, the answer is YES, the community should help the week in a sustainable way, because this is why the community is about. The contrary is called “jungle”
Of course it should be cut. The TROIKA under German guidance forced Greece to borrow more than it needed in order to be able to leverage reforms that didn’t work, hence worsening the situation so another bail-outs loan was required, the details again wrongly worked out, and so it goes on.This was all done (& billions were lost because of it throughout the world) so that the German banks that had bought cheap Greek bonds before the crisis did not have to do what had first been agreed to; make a small cut to Greek debt (then 120% of GDP) to make it about 100%. Merkel & Sarkosy threw wobblies (in fact rumour has it that the latter jumped on a table and swore at Papandreou in a Eurogroup meeting – ‘You’re a f–k— idiot’). Whatever, the Germans created this mess. They should pay up because of this moral issue by agreeing with many others that Greek debt should be cut. The Greeks did not create this mess. The Germans did. But Merkel cannot tell the Reichstag the truthe of her and Schaueble’s mess.
Bear in mind that the Greek debt was created just in the last years. From 1830-2004 the loans that Greek Government took was 180 billion Euros. From 2004 till now Greek Government took loans of 360 billion and with the new one this goes to 440 billion. You must be very stupid to believe that all this is caused from Greek people’s way of life over the past years.
You must consider also that only 8% of this loan went to real economy and all the other money went to save German and France banks, recapitalization of banks and interests and loans.
And for people that they don’t know sh… World Economic Forum 2013, Which countries work the longest hours. Greece is third USA in the middle and Germany in the last place. So STFU.
And Yes Greeks retire in 65 and this will go to 67. We have exceptions like in the States. In USA if you are in the army after 15 years you can retire. So you can be 35 and retired.
As Soible said Greeks should pay their debts. This goes both ways. If they can’t find a way to pay their debts to as from WWII they are just liars. Where There’s a Will, There’s a Way everything else is just excuses.
They now want to lay hand on future gas and oil deposits of Greece. An estimate that was made for those deposits is around 1,7 trillion Euros. So basically they gave Greece money to save their banks in order get Greek Oil and Gas at ¼ of the price. That’s what economical killers do.
So because thats the case and not what your government feeds you please Germans and Americans be more supportive.
We are not lazy nor un trustful but a proud people. Proud because we don’t build our wealth on other peoples misery and then blame them. If you want to blame somebody blame your Governments.
Out and Over…
How did Europe get here, to the point where the monster was allowed to raise his agly head again. Let France and Britain take charge of things and let United States give a helping hand, too. Tell US are needed.
Of course it should !
Greece was alone in lying about it’s debt to enter the Euro, the Troika inc ECB encouraged this subversion to suit it’s own corrupt agenda and the EU Parliament and the twisted Comissioners did nothing to find the truth or expose it.
The IMF and the Zionists want debt throughout the world as then it can control, interfere or influence sovereign countries and governments.
What about British austerity when the poor and disabled are victimised to pay for tax cuts for the rich and non domiciles influence the British Parliament while themselves avoiding or evading British taxes.
All this and UK debt has doubled from £700 Billion to £1400 Billion (1.4 Trillion), so how is austerity working?
USA debt to China is i believe around $2.5 Trillion, Germany has debt of 145% of GDP.
The whole world is bankrupt, but no one will admit it as they are too busy lining their own pockets from debt and misery of capatilism and zionism.
Not one leader will tell the truth on world debt and why this debt is being allowed to grow, that is the level of democracy in the world, the hidden agenda.
If it was good enough for Germany then …. it’s.good enough for Greece …. NOW !!!
Definitely not!! German debt forgiveness was not the same. Germany spend their money on rebuilding after a world war, it spend the money for its people.
Greece is corrupt and they do not understand that without radical reforms even with a debt forgivness their economy will fail once again. In the past five years with new loans pretty much every year not much changed in the country, just leading to another fail.
And their politicians (tsipras and vacoufakis) attitude ( I am the boss) did not help their cause either.
And the US are also not needes. Stay on your own continent!!!
Greeks are NOT Germans. For that be certain. And what a blessing that is.
Who would want any more of that race. God forbid, I say. God forbid.
Of course, German debt forgiveness was not the same! Germans caused the death of more than 0.5mn Greek civilians (including 100,000 Greeks in concentration camps), they ruined Greece and then, Greece accepted a postponement of German debt payment in 1953 though it was in dare need of capital for its own restructuring. Of course, the USA has chosen to force jobless, impoverished Greek labour to heading to Germany in order to work as cheap labour for German resurection.
Stop the naive propaganda. Germany is the main threat against Europe. The neo-nazionalist beast arises. The USA, Russia, France and the UK are the best allies for Europe in order to smash once and forever the German neo-nazionalist beast.-
US forgave Germany in 1930, 1993 and the Germans refused to pay in 1999 the debt owed to slave laborers, Of course they should forgive the German Debt
and give the Syriza party a chance to rebuild their economy.
Please remember. We forgave Germany their debts, we forgave Germans their atrocities. One questions if we should have done so.
I fear the Germans. I fear what they are; I fear what they have been and I cannot see that people ever changing. They have been using the EU to their ends.
The e Greece borrowings went to refinance EU banks, particularly German and French, after the collapse of Lehmann Brothers in 2008. They’ve even taken the European Central Bank to Frankfurt. The centre of the European continent is in London. Frankfurt isn’t even a poor cousin to it.
The Brits are the greats. They’ve paid with their Empire to save us from their evil.
The whole world was told to forgive Germany because it was felt at the time that we have to protect our selves from communism. In fact it is the Germans we have to protect our selves from. And the Germans know it that we fear them and they exploit it. They do not understand though why we fear them. We fear them because they do not have the leadership qualities that are required to be at the top ranking people like say the Americans or the British or the French even are.
The Germans have an inferiority complex. And that is why we fear them.
It is those with a chip on their shoulders who can do the unexpected just like their infamous and evil compatriot did.
Joe Marcinkowski
You mean the Greek debt should be forgiven because the German debts have been forgiven in the past.
We know already that the loans to Greece went to refinance German banks after the Lehmann Brothers collapse in 2008. It is Germany we are talking about here. Don’t expect them to conduct themselves with dignity.
As ever their conduct is an affront.
There is also the loan that the Nazi government required from the Greek people which has not been repaid, understand that with interest this would cover most of the debt. Germany dignity may be helped by pressure.
Joe Marcinkowski, you are absolutely right. There is also the Nazi extracted loan
that has to be repaid. Germany is a skirmish of an entity. They hide their pathetic
existence behind the respectability of EU. Germans welcomed the EU so that they can be called European instead of German. That is where the Europeans should object. I do not wish to be mentioned in the same breath as they.
I’ve nothing in common with that lot. I consider it an insult to even be thought of as same. God forbid, I say. In my view, there are many in Europe who feel the same as me. But people being diplomatic or politically correct, do not speak
the words so clearly. But the bottom line is: that’s how they feel it.
Of course, not only did US forgive in 1953 but the US forgave major debt from Germany after WWI and Germany walked away from Payments to the Nazi Slave Laborers which was due to be paid in 1996. Lets not forget that Nazi Germany required the Greek Government to make an large loan to Germany that was never repaid. If that loan with interest was paid today it would wipe out Greek debt to Germany. We need to stop subsidizing Germany.
If they lower their pensions in half
yes….and we give a lot of offers to our friends in europe
70% of pensioners take a pension of 375 euros .. so half of it is 187,5 Euros , can you live my friend with 180 euros per month at the age of 70 ? and you have been paying all your life on your social security … please thing a lil bit !!
Pensions do not cost anything to the budjet becase pension organiizations have 27 billion euros reserves and budjet pays the system only 7 billion a year .The same percentage of E.U countries.
Greek debt was private debt of bond holders -inter funds ,banks AND ECB witch paid their bonds with profits of 40 to 90% with the loans of IMF,ECB,E.C. through fake Greek bail-out loans.Greece did not take a cent of that loans instead paid part of the bill.You will not find the names of the lucky recipients of the payments although banks and several officials have detailed records.No orgiveness .The debt must be paid by those who have stolen the european citizen money and of course punish those responsible.
Is that somekind a joke????? Should Bulgarian debt first???? More than 1 ooo ooo People here in Bulgaria, live with less 100$ monthly.. In Greece, min pension is 450eu.. Or Bulgarian, are less humans, not as refugees and Greeks..
Citizen’s of Greece can work hard repay their debt completely and rebuild Greece on Clean and Clear Saudi Green 1320 foundation ‘s above and beyond anyones emagination
No!
Yes of course. Europe has a responsabilty in that case. Moreover, Greeks has shown they wanted to change their corrupted politics. The Europe answer was shut up and kneel… Finally Germany did more mistakes than Greece with deadly consequences but europe forgave and blow their debts making germany a strong economical state.
A debt is a debt and MUST be paid, but they can pact a new deal. But greek politicians shoult take advantage of Greece’s logistic position in the Mediterranean sea, specially with Russia building a stronghold in Syria. Like in many other things, US and EU are blind.
Greek dept is the outcome of all foreign policies to the country after the 2nd war towards political & financial colonization. Even illegal, we have no problem to pay. But with the condtion to let us become productively independent again.
Why not?
Metropolitan countries dont want direct competitors.
Yeeeeeees…of corse!!
Oh, no! Simply slice their throats!
And the greek banking System needs unconditional support by ECB as the crisis is caused by lacks in solidarity within the EU (blocked 5th EU Antidiscrimination directive)
Should german corruption in volkswagen and audi be forgiven?
Lanisters always pay their debts. ;)
Actually I don’t care about future. I know it doesnt exist. So I have to say good bye to this life. I am already in hell I am not affraid of it.
YES
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.
Never going to happen, Greece & the Greek people are now the property of Berlin/Brussels.
Greeks can’t pay back , all should accept that. Their dept is 175.1% of GDP (2013) , that is imposible to pay back .
Corruption and crime : Problem , you should understand Greeks ! You borrow money to corrupt country like Greece or Croatia and those money just disperse . The only thing that is left is a huge debt to poor folk . Poor folk is than just a slave to the banks but rich-corrupt people send money to secret accounts in Switzerland and other countries. Than you have problem that poor people are very angry just because they have to pay back a huge amount of cash and they have to spend life in poverty . EU should help corrupt countries in their fight against corruption and tax evasion , how much in tax has been collected from example Apple and Google in Greece = 0.00 $ . European System of Central Banks should write off debts , arrest gangsters and help poor countries to become free of slavery . http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
BBC – tax evasion : Mr Henry said his $21tn is actually a conservative figure and the true scale could be $32tn. A trillion is 1,000 billion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097
Greek cash is in Swiss banks . The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks. The former Finance Minister of Greece, Evangelos Venizelos, was quoted as saying “Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros”. A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was €28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tax_evasion
EU should help corrupt countries in their fight against corruption and tax evasion (sic!)
Appoint the wolves shepherd to the sheep flock! The EU bureaucracy is the main corruption-spreading mechanism accross the EU member states, turning public money to private (MNCs mainly) pockets!
Yes it sbould as for Portugal and Ireland
337 % more taxes on the poorest Greeks …. while for the wealthy by 9 %….One would tax the ” black ” 800 billion . of the Greeks in Switzerland? ……..” For months the authorities in Switzerland are just waiting for the Greek government to catch the ” black money ” that are amounting to billions . But Finance Minister Varoufakis will not answer ” ….Judges and Members of parliament are the lords of corruption in Greece ….Council of European Corruption (GRECO),
And then what? Ever been to a public service in Greece…its a disaster. Ever tried to open a store and see how much burocracy is out there. Ever went to a hospital in greece? Ever visited schools in Greece? As long as public service sucks @$$ no debt should be written off.
Surely.And plus Germany must pay 375 bill euros at least for the WWII loans and reparations to Greece according international law.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31849430
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-greek-demands-for-war-reparations-from-germany-make-sense-2015-04-16
Only after they leave the Euro. The Greeks are worthless and we will have a repeat
We should ask Mongolia to pay for tatars invasions!
Υes they should forgive the dept cause Greece is too important to be lost from all the European systems. If the don’t do that Greece here shelf will leave and the strategic importance is so big cause it’s the Gate of Europe and also the natural resources of the country are the future of European energy independence which is 100 times more the the today dept. .
yes!!! Democracy – Europe cannot live without its very origins
http://www.daserste.de/information/politik-weltgeschehen/weltspiegel/videos/griechenland-deutsche-kriegsverbrechen-hinter-den-bergen-100.html
YES, is the only way to survive euro and Europe
Yes!
YES!!
YES.
No
We should exit EU, and close the door for ever..we need new allies such as Russia, Europe and USA failed, Russia is closer to us,we need them and they need us….. A country like Greece in this zone, in the center of the world has an enormous value
Yes.
There should be a worldwide debt restructuring to viable levels. Gross world debt $223.3 trillion amounting to 313% of global gross domestic product is just beyond the comprehension of any kind of serious maths! Even for the maths of the most stupid capitalist.
Nope
Those are europe taxes. So greeks should stop going to buzuk (greeks pubs) and start working like all europeans do
Kevin, I am living nd working in Greece, paying more than 65% of my income back to state as taxes etc. NEVER going to Bouzoukia,…Many of my copatriots paying their taxes are like me,.So ..please stop acusing citizens and have a look at banks, in Greece and EU.
And you should stop reading scandal sheets (newspapers) and try instead to be more informed about your statements.
so we gave greece loans to get back on their feets – but where did the money end up?…in german and french banks, who exploided the oppotuinity. so lets stop fooling ourselfs.
do somthing about the criminal, corrupt and greedy banking sector – and maybe just maybe, everyone would get back on their feets.
YES!
Mariam Shalaby check this one
The kurropt bankers should pay
All indebted countries should be relieved somehow. I don’t want to put weight on other European members shoulders by cutting our debt. It is not fair
Germany did not really pay for the destruction they made during WW2. So it would be fair to at least figure out normal conditions. By now almost everybody knows that the datas- when they entered the EU- were fake, so in first place they should’ve not join the EU. But EU wanted them in…
ABSOLUTELY
Of course, this fictitious debt should be forgotten. Money is a fantasy created by banks and if it is not, then, the lenders must prove the origin of the funds lent.
partially?
u funny… take a look at the damning origins of such a debt and tell me the greeks were not toyed with… please, watch the video were Maria Lucia Fattorelli talks of her team’s findings on this issue
Like the man says. Germany’s the BIG problem in Europe. For as long as we have that lot in our midst we’ll always run into trouble. Get them out of the Union.
They are not like the rest of us. They’ll always find ways to get your money out of you. That’s their trade and it is a disgusting one. Just like them. Disgusting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Crh7r7YJbM
Greece should take back Asian minor
When will you all realize it. Germany’s a fraud. Just lift the rug off a bit and you’d see the worms swerving under it. Look at what’s happening with VW, with what’s
happened at Thomas Cook travel company a couple years back.
I didn’t know about this; history gets forgotten so quickly..! But yes, it does sound totally unfair to Greece. Germany recently criticised UK for not taking enough migrants, but UK is a smaller, more densely populated country that’s been welcoming people for years, inc. German refugees fleeing Nazis – (who killed literally millions of their own citizens, no wonder they have more space) German Gov seem sinister & very selfish
We in Britain soon will be voting whether to stay in or leave the European Union.
I will wholeheartedly vote to LEAVE. I want our country to distance
itself from that monstrosity called Germany. That affront to humanity who not so
long ago hearded people, like sheep, into gas chambers and gassed them to
exctingtion. I do not want to have anything to do with them, I’ve nothing in common with them. They are blood suckers and they will never change.
What Germany did in the past has nothing to do with this generation Israel now doing same to Palestinians yet the world stays silent?
Are you minding. What Germany did in the past, Germany continues to do now also. It is just that it is done in a different way.in the past they took up arms,
now they are doing it through strangling nations with austerity. The other thing one should not forget is that the Israelis learned their lessons from the Germans.
Remember who hearded them like sheep into the gas chambers? The abused have now become the abusers. Need I say more?
You can’t really compare Germany to Greece. It is true that treasonous sockpuppet leaders have pillaged national coffers in Greece. We are all victims of treasonous sock puppets beholden to European Oligarchs, and not the people. They do this in South America constantly.
In regards to the analogy to Germany, it doesn’t come close. Swiss secretive banking laws came into effect the same year Hitler was placed as Furor. To this day nobody knows the total value of the pillaged fortunes that were funneled into those Swiss accounts. We do know of one example where Bank of England funded Hitler with millions after Czechoslovakia was invaded in 1939.
The return on that investment was more than large enough to rewrite history again. The fact that there are existing documents proving that the Bank of International Settlements was funding Hitler all along didn’t get reported until 2013. With just one invasion into Prague, Montagu Norman, governor of the Bank of England, allowed the transfer 23.1 metric tons of gold from the Czechoslovak BIS account, held at the Bank of England, to go to the the Reichsbank BIS account (Hitler’s), also held at Threadneedle Street. The second order instructed the Bank of England to transfer almost 27 metric tons of gold held in the National Bank of Czechoslovakia’s own name to the BIS’s gold account at the Bank of England.
The vast amounts collected from the spoils of war far surpassed the millions looted from the teeth of Jews, and the other prisoners of war that included Catholics and Muslims, which are rarely acknowledged. (The Oligarchs loathe all traditional religions that they can’t control) The point is that Greece’s contribution to the shadow governments doesn’t come close to what Hitler supplied them. Greek debt won’t be forgiven. Consider that an honor. God will take care of them.
No Bank can be considered to be “To Big to Fail” Experience Hindsight shows us that Allowing the Bailing out of Bad Failing Banks Financial institutions Prtecting them Countries to Economically Collapse & Fail Disrupts changes the World order Political Map Global Stability
YES of Course Germany Greater EU Have No Choice they have to Write Off the Greek Debt A similar situation arose in 1920s 30s 40s we are now seeing signs of history alas repeating itself
Germany. An affront to humanity. At last, the world begins to speak out and spell
out what they are and what they have always been. I am so very glad Britain will be getting out of the EU. An invention by them for German domination of the Continent. World, take a hint and get out. Don’t let them use youths Germans walked into France then, the Germans walk all over the French now. And their president Holland is Soooooo grateful to them for that! And yet, it was the English and the Americans that came to their rescue. Had they not, where would Franch be now. That’s what the Germans are. Don’t expect them to pay their debts. They would not know how. They are leeches. LEECHES.
The current austerity measures are a death trap for Greece! The economy of 1.5 million unemployed and similar number of pensioners, with 1/1.3 ratio of supported-to-working people, is mathematically doomed! The last seven years Greeks cashed all their savings in extraordinary taxes! This year’s (2017) prospects are even worsened! The state became a common robber! Thousands of enterprises moved to Bulgaria lefting unemployment and poverty! And here I wonder, how the “educated” economists of the Troika don’t see the coming disaster? I seriously suspect that 1) they wish a Grexit 2) they sacrify Greece as an example to others who don’t want a German Europe!
If Greece came out of the EU that would be the saving of this glorious and beautiful country. It will devalue its currency by making it the Greek Euro, make itself competitive and bring back busines, work and prosperity to its people.
But would Germany allow it? No. Of course not. The cannot allow one less country to milk from. They need people to suck blood from. The mere mention of their name, German or Germany, makes my skin crawl. If I were one of them I’d commit suicide. Just like you know who; their leader H. They are, they have been and they will remain for ever the unacceptable side of the human race.
No thank you. My comment is perfectly fine. In my view does not require any moderation whatsoever. Can you not publish peoples’ true feelings? Their views and their thoughts? We speak the truth. An already moderate truth.
What the “leadership” of Europe, ie Germany, has actually decided as fate for Greece is so barbaric, it is reminiscent of the barbarism of the Middle Ages. Even their WWII atrocities pale into insignificance by comparison. For those days they claim that they did not know. What is their excuse now?
in the Germanic World War II mentality that makes it
I just heard a video interview of the German Finance minister saying that Germany is in a good place. Their finances are in good shape, their unemployment rate is lowest since reunification, and they can cope with the influx of migrants. Perhaps that man should get up from that wheel chair that he occupies. He might be able to see further down towards, Greece, Italy, Spain and
all the rest of the countries, the misery which Germany has brought on to them,
since that reunification, for which let him understand that WE ALL PAID FOR with
the recession of the early 1990’s. Our parents and grandparents paid for that lot
previously. I can see only one way of saving ourselves from the German lot.
Because saving our selves from them we will have to sooner or later.
Throw them out of the EU. We in Britain have elected to leave, as you all know.
Instead of the rest of you dismantling the Union, throw the Germans out of it and then we Brits will come to your rescue. We’ll find the way. We did it before, we shall do it again.
no do you know what salaries they take you can’t live offf debt and expect one day for it to be forgiven. We here in bulgaria the average salary is 300 euro. The avrg i greece is around 1000 that’s because they live off debt. We can’t tolerate such swindling
No offense but the average salary in Greece is 450 euro for a worker working FULL TIME (something extremely rare nowadays) and 750 for a university graduate WITH MASTER DEGREE. Besides I don’t remember Bulgaria lending money to Greece so please sir, pull yourself together.
Also the minimal sallary in Bulgaria is 235 EUR and the average is 450eur.
Владо, говориш глупости. Πέτρο, λες μαλακίες ρε φίλε και έχεις και Google. The net salary in Greece is 947€ in Bulgaria is 488€. Both countries contribute to the EU fund so basically every country gives money for stuff being done in the EU. Even lending Greece money.
Yavor Gízmo Petrov That’s bull my mother is a teacher with 2 MhD and takes 320 euro
Let me say it like this. No one cares how much your mom makes. Your mom does not represent all the 7.2 mill bulgarians. She is but a tiny fraction of the equation. Just because she is underpaid and our system doesn’t value education, that doesn’t change the numbers. Learn the difference between average for the country and “my mom’s salary”.
In Romania too the sallary is only 300 e at mans even the politics take a 1000 at 15000 e at mans they help the banks coz they said this eprises must bee helped ,what of the people?
Let’s just say joining the EU hasn’t benefited many states as it was promised on paper. Let’s not forget that the union was created for freedom of trade and travel and now Brussels lower has exceeded that of which it is becoming more of a dictatorship.
^ Just found the Τσίπρας voter.
Yavor Gízmo Petrov I am no tsipras voter and never have been but I am no dumb fool like many EU citizens claim that this European model we have is a saint from God.
Life in Greece is more expensive than Bulgaria , In Greece u can’t take the basics with these salaries
It’s funny how easily you throw around terms like “dictatorship” when you personally have never experienced something even remotely close to it. You’ve been born in the EU and have 0% experience out of it. No one says the EU is perfect, but still, it’s way better than anything else we ever had. Don’t be a Negative Nancy or a dumbass GrExiteer and make it work instead of just barking online.
The average monthly salary in Greece was ca. €1100 in April 2016 (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/wages).
I have lived half of my life in Greece and half in Bulgaria, so arguing with me about the value of money in both countries is pointless and only shows your inability to grasp the basic concepts of common sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfosifJmm6s hear this
Vladislav Kiuldjiiski but the prices in Greece are three times bigger than in Bulgaria!
Germany own to Greece 350 billion since WWII, if this debt paid , no need to forgiven the Debt is equilising
That was cleared in 1990. The 2+4 Treaties.
Lol what a joke 350 bilion. Debt to poland was estimated at 50bil at most
What do you think ?You BULGARIANS have not lend to Greece 1 euro.You only have take from Greek .Germans take 2500 euros salaries and have public debt of 2,3 trillion euros why dont say about it.
When was it Greece gave money to Bulgaria?
Ivan Enchev how mmuch money did Bulgaria took from the EU?
Germany ows to GREECE at least 600 bill euros for WWII loans and reparations acc inter law payble in cash.There is not any need any Greek loan to be forgiven.
Yes ofcourse, save our greek brothers.
If yes we the portuguese want the money we paid back have a nice day
Toma lá €5.
ai esta o nib todo e pouco
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/700264/Greece-could-take-legal-action-Germany-recover-Second-World-War-reparations-debt-crisis
If the portuguese money lend to greece is paid off, for me it’s ok …although I think it’s immoral. We have a debt and are paying as well…if they forgive one, they should forgive all…
Yanis Varoufakis: Grexit ‘never went away’
https://youtu.be/qIOKLH1eknM
There should be a criminal inquiry to determine who, how, when, contributed to the current situation. Who decided to replace the private bank credits with european public credits. The real objectives behind the coersive and innefective bailout programs. Who was really bailed out?
Death unemployed europeans, don’t. They weren’t.
Exactly!
Exactly
Toma lá €5.
No never
Smells like anti-Greek spirit here…
Christos Derventlis smell whatever u want but You have to pay the money back x no free money 💰 for no one simple is that
Pay back to who??you??
No to UFO’s 😂 to 🇩🇪 Europe
Sajmir it is none of your business what we will do. Your country is not even an EU member, so please mind your own business.
I have right to say what I think You mind your own business Don’t need to tel me want to do okay Because u can’t.
Demagogic….
There is not such thing as german honour.
Владо, говориш глупости. Πέτρο, λες μαλακίες ρε φίλε και έχεις και Google. The net salary in Greece is 947€ in Bulgaria is 488€. Both countries contribute to the EU fund so basically every country gives money for stuff being done in the EU. Even lending Greece money.
Yavor Gízmo Petrov That’s bull my mother is a teacher with 2 MhD and takes 320 euro
Greece doesn’t owe money only to Germany, it owes money to France, Italy, UK and the central bank too. Don’t make it Germany vs. Greece thing. It never was
also Germany in 1953 ;)
Is Greece in war now? Is the current financial situation caused by war or external intervention in Greek sovereign matters? No. So you can’t compare the two, and which Germany are you talking about? East or West?
Greeks should accept that the current situation is caused mainly by them and now they need to face the consequences. Why weren’t they protesting against Papadopoulos loans for example or any othe corrupt government before and after? Why were they okay with joining the Euro in the first place when they knew they are not ready for it? I’m okay with some small part of the debt to be forgiven, but there is no reason at all for the whole loan to be taken down from Greece. And what will be lesson of it. We screwed once, but all is okay so we can do it again…
Ivan Enchev you know nothing…please stop talking if you dont know the cituation in Greece…just say your answer no or yew and why if you want…but stop saying lies with the half or no knowledge in Greek politics and economy…
Krysta Papaioannou proof of your words, please? I am in Greece every year and not on vacation like most. I have many Greek friends and I do know what is going on there. I bet you can’t say the same about you when it comes to any other country in Europe, even your own neighbours!
It’s easy to point fingers at others but from my contacts with business owners in Greece the attitude is – Yanis is not paying his taxes what should I be the stupid one and pay them. And they Apostolis sees I don’t pay my taxes too and he stops paying his. And in the end country is not getting any taxes, but people will again blame the foreigners or the government instead actually taking responsibility for their own actions. Oh and one more thing – entrepreneurship is not opening bars and shops only. Because that’s the general idea of Greeks when it comes to setting up your own business!
you are saying what exactly??…other than come to my words…and that is you have no idea of what you are talking about…Greek friends told me…i came to Greece lots of times….bla bla bla…and those facts makes you an expert in Greek politics an economy …and you have an opinion …or jumbing in connclusion …give as a break and talk about something else…you have no knowledge…
Krysta Papaioannou yes, continue with your pointles tirade
“Of course not” will say someone “let’s lend them more money to have them pay their debts.”
This guy will have strings in is hands while saying this, and in the bottom line it is his will that will be complied.
The dept should not be forgiven, but there should be a way to make the transition smoother. As far as I know It was the goverment officials that embezzled the funds so they should be the ones to take responsibility. Only after that should we talk about the majority of greece paying for this mess.
and what about with those who lend the money? dont have any responsibility? nobady forced them to lend us ,
Χρήστος Τούμπας
If you get a loan to do a road constroctuon project but instead give it to your cousin, you don’t have a road to show or the money to pay back. Trust is lost and the lenders are not happy when the truth is revealed.
Generally this is what happened in Greece. They fixed statistics with tricks that improved their end of the year standing and payed back just enough to be able to take another loan.
Since the lenders got back some money which promised a slow but steady return they didn’t cut the flow.
This is not only Greece’s fault! However don’t think that you guys and girls didn’t have a part in it.
Of course…what a question. ..why should a whole population get scarified and bankrupt because of somethings that were done wrong by some corrupt greedy politicians supported by other greedy persons internally and abroad ….?
No. Once it is forgiven, then any possibility of Greece to become a “western democracy country” will go away.
YES, ΝΑΙ
YES, ΝΑΙ
Federal europe is the answer. This way, everyone shares the debt.
Finally a smart comment.
Cheers
Has committed Greece blood crimes?
So Greece should commit blood crimes in order for the debt to be forgiven as German debt was? hmmm ok…
Yiannis Kanidis just with germans, please :)))
I ain’t against debt relief but the question remains: How are those who follow the rules are going to be compensated for paying the schemes of those who do not? Bulgaria suffered severe austerity after the fall of communism(GDP in soviet time 29 bil. dollars, after the austerity- less than 10 billion) so I do not want something like that for any state. So if there is debt relief it should compensate all not just the schemers….
what if Bulgaria give back the money which owes to Greece? ;)
Lazaros Greece are you uneducated? What money? Every debt is either payed or negotiated….
Borislav…go steal a goat
Haha what a grown up behavior. For people who want sympathy you sure are unsympathetic.
Maybe you should consider the fact that you are ex commies and had fucked up economies. Also in order for every ex commie country to join the EU the other members had to pay for you.
Michael Paraskevas so you did not screw up your economy? And Greece did not recieve tons of money for CAP since the 80-ties? Be smart not stupid!
And ??? Greeks should be then thankful for the rest of our politicity ? F y!
Is the World black or white? 🤔
Is the World black or white?
There needs to be a substantial haircut on Greek debt due to the absense of a EU Defense Force , which has come as a result of the British- Turkish War against the United States in Cyprus , on backs of Greece and Cyprus since 1950 derivd from the British State Sponsored Turkish Military invasion and occupation of EU member Cyprus from 1974 , which has provided the British Military bases in Cyprus a security adavantage against American efforts since 1950 to expel the British Military from Cyprus to be replaced by American military bases in Cyprus , which has resulted in Britain reinforcing the Turkish Occupation of Cyprus via the Turkish Military violations in the Greek Aegean . Britian and Turkey are Rogue states violating the Sovereignty of both EU memebers Greece and Cyprus . Then the EU can go chase Britan and Turkey to recover the debt haircaut given to Greece as a result of the Greek military expenditure that has damaged the Greek economy as a result of the British State Sponsored Turkish Military invasion and occupation of EU member Cyprus since 1974.
This doesn’t make any sense. You need to make better statements and explanations.
I’m Greek and I understood nothing
there is British soldiers who they died in Greece during the second world war along with Greeks while the fought the nazis. What happened in Cyprus it is copletely different , also Britons they do not destroyed Cyprus many Cypriots are happy of retaining British values
This one too 👆
The question is too simplistic.
Let us ask some other parallel and more pertinent questions:
– Should the politicians, who knowingly took that debt, be held accountable?
– Should the banks that issued the debt, knowing very well that the money was going to pay for exports from the lending country, be held accountable?
– Should the EU financial system, that intentionally issued debt so that importing countries can buy goods from producing countries, be seriously reviewed and held accountable?
– Should the “financial experts”, who distorted the financial truth about Greece, be held accountable?
Once we answer these thorny questions we may be in a position to look at the Greek debt as it is today and not as a historic comparison to some other era when things were very different. This historic comparison is an endless and useless emotional exercise.
Jules Ortjens
^ Just found the Τσίπρας voter.
Actually, they already received a debt reduction in a hight multiple of what Germany received in help. The problem of Greece is the greek society and following of this the state organisation.
Dillusional
Manos Foukarakis Question is who is dillusional.
No! Why?! This will stimulate more countries to outstep the financial discipline. It may be cut partially, and must be restructured in order to ease the live of the Greeks and stimulate the economy. With the new taxes which are result of the creditors plan for they just kill the economy.
Forgiven? No. But postponed: definitely Yes. The Greek economy desperately needs some breathing space and some foreign investment. Seven years of severe cuts and outrageous taxation have only made the situation worse. Too bad that the ppl calling the shots keep on ignoring that.
No, what made that bad situation was the corrupt polititians you elect. Not the cuts and taxation.
It’s a lot more complicated than that and a lot of factors played a role, but judging from your aggressive tone, I don’t think it’s worth discussing further
Lol just get a popcorn and look at those brexit crybabies. Yeah if eu is so evil then return the debt you took yourself!
The question is too simplistic.
Let us ask some other parallel and more pertinent questions:
– Should the politicians, who knowingly took that debt, be held accountable?
– Should the banks that issued the deb,t knowing very well that the money was going to pay for exports from the lending country, be held accountable?
– Should the EU financial system, that intentionally issued debt so that importing countries can buy goods from producing countries, be seriously reviewed and held accountable?
– Should the “financial experts”, who distorted the financial truth about Greece, be held accountable?
Once we answer these thorny questions we may be in a position to look at the Greek debt as it is today and not as a historic comparison to some other era when things were very different. This historic comparison is an endless and useless emotional exercise.
Yavor Gízmo Petrov I am no tsipras voter and never have been but I am no dumb fool like many EU citizens claim that this European model we have is a saint from God.
I am a Greek. What we need is logical laws. With these laws that we had before the crisis there is no way on earth this country will stand strong. EU is a constitution created so that WWI and WWII conditions would be avoided. I am afraid you can not make it if you have corrupted politicians and irrational laws.
Agree
the German debt to Greece is bigger than the national debt of Greece.If Germany give those loans back to Greece we will not have to talk about forgiveness to Greece ;)
The question is too simplistic.
Let us ask some other parallel and more pertinent questions:
– Should the politicians, who knowingly took that debt, be held accountable?
– Should the banks that issued the debt, knowing very well that the money was going to pay for exports from the lending country, be held accountable?
– Should the EU financial system, that intentionally issued debt so that importing countries can buy goods from producing countries, be seriously reviewed and held accountable?
– Should the “financial experts”, who distorted the financial truth about Greece, be held accountable?
Once we answer these thorny questions we may be in a position to look at the Greek debt as it is today and not as a historic comparison to some other era when things were very different. This historic comparison is an endless and useless emotional exercise.
I am not against drastic moves every now and then.
Giampaolo Conte
It’s Greeks that have to forgive the EU, not the other way around. Losing your job and going through all kinds of austerity measures just to pay interests and finance bankers is obscene.
Christos Derventlis smell whatever u want but You have to pay the money back x no free money ? for no one simple is that
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34k7s5
Let some decent germans explain it better
To a part Yes! But Europe MUST insist on fighting Greece’s corruption!! Even our leftist goverment creates unbelievable corruption and scandals …….!
What’s the point to new taxes when there is corruption?
We are seriously not able to fight corruption ourselves….. we need help with that, not taxes , programs , loans etc…..
To my fellow Greek citizens stop saying stupid things about the German debt. The debt should not be forgiven, however the greek economy does indeed need some air to breathe. We lend money to someone in order to get our money back. if the other person does not have the ability to pay us back, then we should make some arrangements to create this ability and not suck the money off until they get bankrupt. that’s pure logic.
Τράβα γαμήσου ρε φιλελέμπουρα προκυνημένε!
@michael ψάχνεις καυγά αλλά αμ δε.
why not , do not forget that Germany’s debt is forgiven after the end of the second world war that Germany started costed million of lifes across Europe including the Jews Genocide , of course Germany that time was under a tyranic regime but the nazis they came in to power after election at first while Hitler is fooled German people.
No to UFO’s ? to ?? Europe
The problem is not the debt – there are countries with bigger debt than ours – but austerity…
Greece needs serious reform more than anything else. The Greek electorate bears a lot of responsibility for their sorry state of affairs.
The German debt was not forgiven by the Greeks but by the americans
Or by Europeans-not forgiven by other European countries i.e.
Don’t alienate all countries with debt
I think it’s time to say Googbye Europe like the Britains ! 😊
This has nothing to do with the debt. Goodby or not goodbye the debt will be there. In euros or drachmas. If we choose not to pay it back then we should face the consequences. Noone will ever do business with us again and noone will ever lend us money again. And there is no country that can survive without loans. This is the undeniable truth, even if we like it or not
I think it’s time to say Googbye Europe like the Britains !
No – German debt was forgiven because of the great things Germany offered to the world at the time. Greece is vile and their debt was created because they are lazy… I mean, are you stupid or do you simply not study history? Besides, Greek loans were not used for Greece. Most of them were to repay loans. I.e. the lender was lending the money he was going to receive, and that only raised loans and interest. Europeans already got back more money out of Greece that they put in. If you want to go further back, the original loans were from countries like England, where for every 10 pounds they loaned, only 1 reached Greece. Not to mention the German debt to Greece and German loan they got from Greece (they forced Greece to loan Germany and got all the Greek gold) from ww2, that the Greeks do not dare to ask for, because Germany is stronger than Greece.
When you consdier Germany murdered MILLIONS across Europe, left much of Europe in rubble, and yet it STILL had its debts written off, I think this is a stupid question.
I believe this question is a bit more complex than just simply forgiving debts. There should be correct actions on all sides.
1) Germany and several others countries should understand that they profit a lot of the EU and Euro, it is their best interest to save them, they should understand that their rules are not suitable for everyone (like Greece, Italy…) and unless they make a compromise in the austority measures, devaluating the Euro, releasing/postponing some debts… etc they risk destroying the European Project and that would put everyone in Europe in a much worse situation. This is NOT a zero sum game.
2) The countries with problems (Greece, Italy…) Should make a compromise as well in return and follow the (less strict) common rules. This would complete the fiscal side of the Monetary Union. This could save the Euro and Europe’s position in the global world.
3) Also I don’t think it is fair to blame an entire nation, because some people (politicians, bankers) made bad decisions. I think there should be discussions about the responsibilities of those people and those made accountable for mistakes. Pouring money into a corrupt and inefficient system is definitely not the solution.
Something clearly needs to be done. Procastrinating on both sides will just make the situation for everyone worse.
The question itself gives the proper answer.
Χρήστος Τούμπας
If you get a loan to do a road constroctuon project but instead give it to your cousin, you don’t have a road to show or the money to pay back. Trust is lost and the lenders are not happy when the truth is revealed.
Generally this is what happened in Greece. They fixed statistics with tricks that improved their end of the year standing and payed back just enough to be able to take another loan.
Since the lenders got back some money which promised a slow but steady return they didn’t cut the flow.
This is not only Greece’s fault! However don’t think that you guys and girls didn’t have a part in it.
Germany was completely dismantled. Most of its leadership was executed. Its laws were changed down to the Constitution. Only then, the new nation wasn’t burdened by the full weight of the old one’s debts.
I”d say, let’s dismantle Greece. All the public employees, for instance, the union accords, all contracts and benefits and protections. Let’s rebuild it from zero, as to make sure we’re not financing waste and corruption. Then we can cut the debt.
You do realize that this would completely destroy Greek society, don’t you? You would basically be telling millions of people that everything they have built their lives upon, sometimes for decades, will be abruptly and radically changed. Yeah, let’s not do that.
Things change all the time.
And didn’t greek citizens vote for change by electing Syriza? Except they don’t have the courage to go far enough.
So (ex)communist states should stay out of your debate since radical changes are something bad?
Francesco Dondi If we manage to cleanse the state of it’s corruption, apply more strict (real-time) control over tax evading and reduce a bit the taxes (because today they do are quite vindictive), I believe everything will then find their own way. We can talk about a debt relief later (my humble opinion).
That’s the point. We’ve been trying for nine years. If a system cannot be repaired, it has to be replaced.
This one too ?
The average monthly salary in Greece was ca. €1100 in April 2016 (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/wages).
Τράβα γαμήσου ρε φιλελέμπουρα προκυνημένε!
Yes it should. It’s more a political and moral or ethical issue than a purely financial
No. Once it is forgiven, then any possibility of Greece to become a “western democracy country” will go away.
Yes and Portugal too
AS A GREEK CITIZEN I APOLOGIZE FOR THROWING A MASSIVE PARTY THE LAST 30 OR SO YEARS….PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE BATHED THE BALKANS IN BLOOD IN THE EARLY 90s WHEN MILOSEVIC PROPOSED A FINAL SOLUTION FOR THE VARDASKAN PROBLEM TO K.MITSOTAKIS…”MILO WE CANT DO THAT , WE ARE EUROPEANS NOW” MITSOTAKIS SAID…
Zevra done much worse in CAMERIA (noth-west) Greece then miloshevic after 1945 and all must got away with it ti 2016 when Hague recognised the Albanian genocide in Greece
Lefter Isuf Gjura …quit drinking that tirana beer is bad for u…or maybe keep it up u’ll eventually find a job as a screen writer…
Yes.
Yes
Xhttp://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html
No way, my taxes are not for free, nobody forgives my debts and the bank would throw me out os home if I don’t pay the mortgage and greeks work less than me, they retire earlier than me, make them work more to pay for their debt.
Greeks work the most im EU
Stanislav Novikov Greece raised its retirement age to 65 very recently. Wasn’t the age 58 before?
Never was on 58. Only the Military, police and the firefighters would retire before 65
Petros Papadimas Thanks. But then explain why greeks work so much and Greece seems to be broken needing mercy from EU.
Well i dont know in what world do you live in, but im pretry sure working harder and getting poorer has always been the tune of the eu debt union!
GonEprata Megarp I live in a world where I work hard, spend only as much as I can, living responsibilly, and I don’t live begging for help from others who also work hard to support themselves.
@michael ψάχνεις καυγά αλλά αμ δε.
i think something needs to be done, it is against who are to have a country continually in the humanitarian crisis it has been in since 2008. Greece should not have joined or been allowed to join the Euro, that is clear, however, it is in and we need to deal with current problem. Greek debt needs to managed in away that will make it more efficient as a country (remember it was Greece that broke its banks not the banks that broke Greece – in ireland the banks broke Ireland not the other way round). I would like to see a productive think tank established. Greece needs to ask (all things being equal), why is the netherlands, sweden, denmark and so on not in hoch? all of these countries, like Greece[had], have good social safety nets and work profitably, so they need to be in the think tank. Rather than the negative spiral of austerity and cuts, out of which there appears to be no exit, imagine greece is in the black for a minute, how should it manage and implement it s taxation base, and here europe sticking in its nose in would be very helpful to ensure the greeks stick to this. Once you implement this as a fiscal structure and process, modifying to take certain local conditions into account, once you have oversight to prevent a repeat of the ‘ills’ that created the scenario, then you can talk about debt relief, two ways, reduction (and yes it isn’t just a german thing, the greeks owe the italians a lot of money too, and they need to look after their own), a reduction to the overall debt (or a suspension for a while of a junk of it on the basis that ‘acts will be gotten together and fiscally correct will oversea that), and spread over a longer period. The EU should take over migrant and refugee centres, which would provide relief I am sure. where there is a will there is a way, if Greece continues to starve it is because the will is not there collectively to help in a productive way.
Well im sure they would love to have even more thinking tanks with their cannons directed at us…but they already have brains sliding from the sides! They ask and answer every problem related to the eu, and guess what? There is fukin nothing more they can do than sell this dream that maybe if you streach your brains really hard you will come out with a way to pay ridiculous debt without having to rape entire populations economically and morally! and i would be laughting at such thinker tanks trying to coming up with such a solutions if it werent for the fact that really the biggest problem for international economy is that the main institutions of that same economic system are what are restraining the flow of money and therefor creating andd raising debt, abd lowering life quality in general.
GonEprata Megarp well i don’t what else to suggest, yes of course we have politico economic system that is out of control, but whenever we get this sort of thing,, history tells (a) that we collaborate [or at least collaboration takes place either by key people or in key areas], whether it is vortigen selling romano britain to the saxons, or cogidungus the britons to the romans, or the irish to the anglo normans and so on. now the enemy is commerce itself, but we all play our part. some places make themselves vulnerable through various means, southern europe makes itself vulnerable through its suffocating beaurocracy, certainly in italy the skimming the cream off the top is literally killing the country off now at every level, greece carried on too, regardless, no oversight by anyone, in the meantime the banks in ireland were going nuts and encouraging everyone else to do so too, so on one side it is our governments who have failed us all, the eu by allowing them to do so, and the troika by finding solutions that simply will never work and continuing to do so, so greece has to ask (as does southern europe), why are these other countries doing okay and what can we learn? that said, greece also has much to teach as does southern europe about the importance of the social pact, that is the debate that must happen and not just talk, but a real will to find the balance. the matter is now very urgent, if the eu breaks up we will be at the mercy of far worse, an oligarch to the west and another to the east. so i understand how hopeless it seems but i don’t think we should go down without a fight.
All debt on Earth should be erased due to the surreal fact that the world’s debt several times the world’s GDP. To whom we owe?
Indeed if had not the international banks convince the people to take it so serious, it would be laughable at this point.
..to the U.F.O. …. is more than obvious….
greece will not , and can not pay back.
Yes.
50% and bring in a law that politicians must can only run a deficit three years in a row. It stops them passing debt onto the next administration
With out productive independence is useless.
Something need be done. Help yes. But total forgiveness no. No that I would not agree. Since Portugal why not the same. But would create the end of EU since if they can why we cannot as well. And the economic system of Europe would fall completely. Would not be the case of Greece be out of Europe but the end of all EU. New wars. And America and Russia would be so happy to finally control. We are a third part in this world that try not be like Cold War. If Europe falls the rest of the world falls. So everything need be done to easy Greece to stand up again. Starting with how society is being created. To much corruption. After clean most of it. And put many responsibles in prison start create a Greece stronger to improve the Europe. Not forgive. But make easy for them to access money. Create new laws if need in EU system to help them so they can stand again and not crush them. After all we are Europeans all of us. But above all. We are all humans living in the same earth
There should be a world conference summit for a global debt relief. The problem is broader than to be considered under a strict national or regional point of view. Otherwise i am afraid that the world will be on an unavoidable rout of violence and generalized conflict.
Sure why not? Germans destroyed the world and then their debt was forgiven!! How nice!!!
Barbecue Markets
Definitely yes.
Yes!
Yes, so the Greeks may immediately start borrowing money again instead working hard for a future bankrupt of their funny “state”. Again. Because life is easy when taxpayers from the rest of the EU pay for your expenses.
What an ignorant view…Greeks work hard. They don’t have to pay for mistakes done by the IMF and EU. They have suffered enough.
U hit the nail on the head really, they borrowed so much money back before and the corruption here is from the top all the way down to the bottom. Even my Greek therapist says if they wiped the debt off now in 10-20yrs we would back in this state, it’s the mindset that needs to change
Andrew Jones continue with your therapies cause the results suck! Best wishes!
Yes, it worked for Germany after WW2 when the German debt was forgiven by US, UK, South Africa, Egypt, Argentina, Belgian Congo (today the Democratic Republic of Congo), Cambodia, Cameroon, New Guinea, and the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland (today Malawi, Zambia and Zimbabwe) and allowed Germany to become the powerhouse it is today
You are clueless my friend. We are one of the most hard working population in europe and less paid. Funny state? Greece? We invented democracy u piece of shit for a european. Your fucking czechoslovakian meaning that ur a small piece of pubes hanging under the balls of USA . Your history in capitalism is what like 10 years? I have seen your country i have met your people and i have a newsflash for you. You are not europeans whatsoever.
Yes and lets not forget that Germany never paid back the gold that had stolen from the Bank of Greece.
Yeeesssa
Yes
No, it shouldn’t be “forgiven”. Greece should simply default.
Thanx Brexit
Yes Yes Yes…. its a huge debt and Germany forgets very quickly!!!
This would be no problem in a truly Unified Europe, with centralized taxes and government, where the united Debt is 87.4%. Besides we would be the second world’s greatest economy (after China), and assuming UK regrets it’s Brexit…
This is not the time for petty bickering, the more European Countries isolate themself’s the more they are subject to outside pressure. United we could stop Putin, control Trump, and probably improve the live’s of many people around the world starting with the Europeans…
What do we still have to gain in being separate? We are like a 17 century Italy, divided and a pushover for any major Empire ou Country…In our case USA, Russia, China.
Are we not all human? Do we not care for one another? In my view the European Union has two moves left, and it has to decide whether to truly unite, or to stop existing, because the existing crisis will be the end of the European Union.
Yes absolutely! You are not getting it anyway! So humble yourself Germany and forgive as you were forgiven!
YES!
not only that, greece should be paid
YES DEFİNİTELY.
YES DEFİNİTELY.
They have suffered enough.
Yes sure. It’s really shameful how Eu treated Greece. They pretended to save it by lending money which didn’t go to people but to German and French banks. The way they are handling Greece file shows undoubtely that Eu is a criminal conspiracy designed to humiliate people and make corporations and financial sector richer and richer
Amazing! You must think the world is a fuking casino…well it certainly is, but not for the people who have to hold these debts! No these debts belong to the international bankers and the people that are supposed to be forgiven from it are the coins that these bankers use to gamble, lool amazing how most countries are in laughable debts! Funny isnt it! We must all be very stupid if most of the worlds population have managed to become indebt, and the only ones smart enought to control it seem to be the huge central and international banks and corporations that have seen an huge profit from these debts, while the rest of the people see their profits melt to the point they cant afford basic care anymore, and who created this debts? Well the same people that created the debt union! The same people who created the debt, are in total control of it and must always receive the money from the debts they create, the question should be, how can people not be indebt when the international economy is a banking casino, and people are their coins? Isnt it the perfect bussiness, so, who the fuck should forgiven again? Very dangerouns people are the ones to be forgiven indeed,and very inconsiderated pró—eu fascist economy are the questions asked by this page.
Yes!!😉
Yes!!
Well this case of banks vs the goverment is a funny one, specially nowdays where politics has become more of an economic tool, instead of being the other way around…the funny thing is that until now banks have to rely on goverments to make sure they get more taxpayer debt money…what you talk about key people, is really just a reflection of what all these called key people represent…the strugle that is hardly new is the people vs the, plutocrats, and this is really easy to see nowdays…is the big money, big bussiness and big politics against the voice of the people, eu debt union was a victory for big coorporations banks and politics that want a compact center of power from witch they can decide everything more easily and brexit was a scream by the unheard population of britain…they spend a lot of time destroying borders to have the people division over immigrants so they dont unify with a clear “fuck you” to the european comission, but im sure that will come anyway, and what about free market? What is the problem with commerce? Well very simple, is the very same problem as always…tell me where are the monopolies of the market and where is the free market to be seen? Free market can only happen with a good circulation of money, without it you only get ever growing big monopolies, and where is the circulation to be seen? In the 1% that own about 90% of the worlds economicall value, most of the worlds money is debt, this debt is a self serving salarie for central and international banks, the national banks that work directly with the goverment, are offcourse the bottom line of the piramid banking system, andi therefor international banks use them to, atach goverments as their debt collectors…for a simple statement…the only purpouse of the eu was to raise debt and to destroy borders, and that is only what it have done.
As a Greek, most certainly my answer woud be that EU should treat the Greek crisis issue, not as a chance to teach those lazy, crooked liars in Greece a lesson, but rather as a chance to enhance bonds among european nations an, most importantly, to create mechanisms that would prevent such unfortunate situations in the future. Those who beleive that the greek problem is an isolated case, don’t fool yourself! And please, drop the ridiculous argument that Greek people are lazy, get paid twice as much as the average european and retire at the age of 50. This is populism from some european leaders or mass media trying to draw people’s attention away from their real problems. And of course, it happens in Greece, too. We have our own political leaders who blame everyone else for their inability. For the record, personally i won’t be retired before the age of 67, however i consider myself lucky to have a job, as this is not subsequent to all, lately……
Nop…at least for now.
They should pressure for more reforms that they need to be done otherwise they will never be done.
Πατριώτη εσύ! ΝΔ και να ψοφήσει η κατσίκα του γείτονα!
Μην εθελοτυφλείς και συ..
Lefteris Kalaitzides το εξωτερικό χρέος της χώρας δεν έχει σχέση ούτε πρέπει να μπερδεύετε με τα εσωτερικά της προβλήματα. .αντιθέτως αυτή ακριβώς η σύνδεση λειτουργεί ισοπεδωτικα απαξιώνονει θεσμούς με αποτέλεσμα να μην μπορεί να λειτουργήσει τίποτα. Αυτό ακριβώς το σκεπτικό γέννησε τα κινήματα “δεν πληρώνω ” από αντίδραση και έφερε των ΣΥΡΙΖΑ στην εξουσία και αύριο μεθαύριο την χρυσή αυγή στην αντιπολίτευση (αυτό είναι το καλό σενάριο) just see the bigger picture
I do not think ot is right for hardworking tax payers…the corruption must be gone or decreased to a controled level..unfortunatelythe hard working on small budget citizen in Greececsuffers more..plus situation back then has not much to do with this situation presently..
Yes
Yes and while you’re at it Irish debt too.
yes
YES!
Borislav Valkov what about the debt which Bulgaria owes to Greece from the 2nd world war when u were in an alliance with Hitler against Greece??Germany is not the only one country that owes money to Greece because of that…maybe Bulgaria wants to forget that part of its history…so it’s not a surprise for me for me the thing that you are not well educated
Then what will be changed nothing look at Germans where are they now
Yes!
Yes, Greek debt should be forgiven like it happened in Germany on the condition that Greece will create a highly competitive economy. I am not an advocate of deregulation but Greece has to go through a liberal shock which will boost investment and it will cure the Greek clientelistic phenomenon After this happens then Greece can regulate some matters in a more social protective manner.
But yes Greek debt is not sustainable. Everybody knows this and it is not only because of the incompetence of the Greek government to implements structural reforms. It is mainly because all bailout programmes aimed to sustain the debt of Greece. I believe that Germany has a huge responsibility about the future of Europe and it has to act now by a generous (although with conditions) Greek debt relief. If the Germans want political integration to go on with them having the dominant role then they should leave aside all political opportunism and consider seriously the effects of a Grexit in the era of Brexit.
Of course it’s all the EU’S fault I mean it was the EU that got Greece into this mess by faking their accounts with Goldman sach’s help and it was also the EU’S fault that Greece never bothered to diversify it’s economy. …… NOT
Frankly? Nothing is or was perfect but things were done in the best possible way.
Πατριώτη εσύ! ΝΔ και να ψοφήσει η κατσίκα του γείτονα!
Μην εθελοτυφλείς και συ..
There isn’t any greek dept in reality! İt’s a bank dept returning to German banks! Billions has already Germany accumulated from Greece not to mension the billions Germany theft from Greece never recharged! To notice greeks was and are the hardest working european citizens!
There isn’t any greek dept in reality! İt’s a bank dept returning to German banks! Billions has already Germany accumulated from Greece not to mension the billions Germany theft from Greece never recharged! To notice greeks was and are the hardest working european citizens!
YES ! YES ! YES !
Yes as long as everyone’s is!
Yes!
No. Switch to the drachma and repay in drachmas. The devaluation alone would act as a major haircut for the total debt. Greece won’t have to beg for the ECB to lend them euros but can print their own currency and stock their banks with liquidity. The devaluation would also cause a major stimulus to tourism in the upcoming year and make Greek exports more competitive abroad as well as at home, thus creating employment. Say no to the worst conceived institution ever created – the euro.
beeing cheap doesn’t fix everything.
No but it fixes your problem. You have too much public debt and your economy is non competitive. Stay on the euro and you will continue the torture of the last 7 years. Meanwhile your problems and the problems of the Spaniards Portuguese and Italians make the euro just soft enough to allow Germans to sell cheaper BMWs to Chinese and American consumers. When the Golden Dawn and KKE are engaged in daily street fights, it will be too late to implement this so hopefully you will steer the ship right in time.
Jovan Ivosevic i agree with you we shouldn’t enter the eurozone in the first place..now days many people something like the 40 %of the voters are afraid of drahma mostly because of the ΝΔ- ΠΑΣΟΚ propaganda. .the truth is that no one knows exactly how you can go back to drahma or if it’s really possible without damaging the country even more. …
Yes!Stop the misery now 7yrs are enough.!!
NO. Even as a citizen from Eastern Europe, I do not agree with this. Handoffs only collapse the structures that are desperate enough to enforce them in exchange for short-term stability.
Remember what happened in Europe in 1930’s? We want this to happen again?
Yes it’s should. The Greek dept it’s more a political problem than a financial one
Jovan Ivosevic i agree with you we shouldn’t enter the eurozone in the first place..now days many people something like the 40 %of the voters are afraid of drahma mostly because of the ΝΔ- ΠΑΣΟΚ propaganda. .the truth is that no one knows exactly how you can go back to drahma or if it’s really possible without damaging the country even more. …
Lefteris Kalaitzides το εξωτερικό χρέος της χώρας δεν έχει σχέση ούτε πρέπει να μπερδεύετε με τα εσωτερικά της προβλήματα. .αντιθέτως αυτή ακριβώς η σύνδεση λειτουργεί ισοπεδωτικα απαξιώνονει θεσμούς με αποτέλεσμα να μην μπορεί να λειτουργήσει τίποτα. Αυτό ακριβώς το σκεπτικό γέννησε τα κινήματα “δεν πληρώνω ” από αντίδραση και έφερε των ΣΥΡΙΖΑ στην εξουσία και αύριο μεθαύριο την χρυσή αυγή στην αντιπολίτευση (αυτό είναι το καλό σενάριο) just see the bigger picture
Ok, Paulos, pay he money and make it financial.
Thats respectable but that was not what i meant…i know those thoughts well, but we must be able to think what should be too much hard working for too low paying, otherwise the more hard we work for the less pay, the more good and noble we are, this is the globalist narrative,liberal, one of the ten thousand excuses to make the situation fell natural, inevitable and even good, a good way to teach our future generations how to be tough right? By placing upon their shoulders the unpayable debt chain that doesnt really belong to them, and squezees the economy of their nation and,leaves them nothing! i dont think like this but i know a lot of people do, so answer this simple question, how could international banks get so rich and “too big to fail without debt”?…i understand that its hard, but i dont think it makes justifiable, there is lot of nobility in working hard…there is none in being underpaid.
GonEprata Megarp I didn’t mean that people should work hard for too low payment. I meant that others don’t have to pay for expenses/debts of others as europeans don’t have to pay for Greece debts.
Greece borrow the money from other europeans and there is no reason not to pay it back as if europeans tax payers don’t work to support themselves. Greeks should be ashame of wanting forgiveness to the debts like uncapable beggers needing alms or just trying to play dishonest smart.
Europeans mislead
The obvious answer is: when there is political will for a resolution. The only place where this seems to be the case is the nation-patient itself. Two summers ago, under remarkable socio-economic pressure, amid capital-controls and an overwhelmingly pro-EU media landscape, 62% of Greeks came out and refused the terms of a third bailout. Anyone with half-an-understanding of economics and finance seems to agree that the current approach to Greek debt is unsustainable economically, socially and politically: all in all, a disaster. Even the master chef of the entire travesty, the IMF, has come out and admitted that neo-liberalism and austerity simply do not work.
So what are we waiting for? Why are millions of Europeans still suffering under utterly misguided political and economic dogmas?
Quite simply because to admit defeat at this point would mark the end of a number of powerful careers. Having poisoned European voters against the lazy PIIGS, it would be nothing short of political suicide to turn around and give in to Greek demands. When would be the next electoral victory in Europe for austerity’s architects if it was revealed that the years of financial and social suffering was a pointless self-inflicted wound with only negative economic results?
Shouldn’t everyone’s debt be forgiven??
Tax the 1%
Maybe it would be better to try and renegotiate… also Germany should stop behaving like a big bully.
Νo but German must pay to Greece its debt of 600 BILL EUR for WWII loans and reparations acc inter law today acc inter law
Dude,come on…
Denis Ionascu what was your country doing in WW2? Because mine resisted and burned to the ground by the Germans. Not Nazis! Germans…So, shut the fk up.
You are retarded.
Where exact did you get that number?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/09/12/does-germany-really-owe-greece-a-etrillion-in-war-reparations-probably-not-no/#6646b6131e0f
https://www.esmt.org/where-did-greek-bailout-money-go
That does not prove your number. Actually, Forbes goes even further and claims 108 bi is a fictioal figure based your claim on todays ppp and not on what was actually owed to you. In other words your Forbes article says you’re actually trying to rip of the germans.
Αre you kidding or nazist friendly? Nazist crimes against humanity are punishable for ever and debts valued WITH PROPER INTEREST ALSO
José Bessa da Silva http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31849430
José Bessa da Silva https://www.rt.com/op-edge/356398-greece-reparations-eu-germany-ww2/
http://www.greece.org/blogs/wwii/?page_id=274
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-commission-concludes-germany-owes-billions-in-war-reparations-a-893084.html#.UWKW2LgFZzk.reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II
Νo but Germany must pay to Greece its debt of 600 BILL EUR for WWII loans and reparations acc inter law today acc inter law
Yes this debt is illegal 90%went to the “greek”banks that the main sheer holders are German,French,In order to cover the big expand in Russia and middle East
Still doesn’t mean it should be forgiven-structure and who benefits should be organised but not forgiven as we forked out money for it
The money went to english and american hedge funds, not to germany. It would be german taxpayers to foot the bill for the casino playing of others. Why should they?
In 1965 Mitsotakis and Papandreou recognize the Greek debt prior to WWI and WWII with no reductions. Even though in these 2 wars Greece was with the winners and lost almost a quarter of its population. That debt was paid until 2009. ( Nor mentioning force loan of Nazi regime and complete destruction of infrastructure). So that part of the debt need to be erased. Rest yes has to be paid.
The logic of those who answer is not “Impose unbearable measures and take loans to pay installments on loans made in the past or in the future” .
well yes, but I think they also deserve to be governed by, let’s say, Germans for 20 years. same for italy. and this is no punishment. the level of corruption is way too high in these 2 countries. forgiving debts without reforming the whole system won’t solve anything. both countries need to be ruled by uncorrupted people who can seriously reform the country for the sake of their citizens.
Germans gaves those money and corrupt our govermends. For their companies like Siemens and for their cars and refrigirators they gavw us loans. So they became rich and we are dying. Greece (and Rome) gaves you letters maths grams musiki economia doctors theatro and musea are full of our historia and heroes. You gavw us a Fascist murder thif that stolen ALL OUR GOLD KILLING 10 people from my family only. We didnt ask the…loans that Hitler took from our bank but you have to respect your partners…better! I call all Europeans to make trials to those that gave those loans. Are quilty for our contition…
We tried that in 19th century …it didn’t work well. .( king Otto era)
Why are you sir presenting Germans as saints? I have lived in Germany and the government/state corruption is quite high, but not as much as Greeces’.You cannot propose a junta as a solution Especially to the country which gave birth to democracy.On your country on the other hand, do as you please
lol, of course. You can easily kill 7+ millions people and then have everything (debt included) forgotten in 5 to 10 years, but please DON’T YOU DARE DON’T PAYING DEBTS OR BEING CORRUPTED because your children would deserve starvation in this case. GERMAN LOGIC.
The truth is that Germany has always been and always will be the RUIN of Europe. It should be split among European countries once for all, so that it becomes finally harmless.
Hopefully Macron will manage to counter-balance the IV Reich of Fuhrer Angela, but if this won’t be the case I still hope Europe will stand against the German Cancer another time. We fucked them twice in the ass twice, maybe the third one will be the decisive one?
Btw the German logic about the lazy south has become tiring… it’s simply not truth. Not to say the South has no problems, on the opposite. But even if the South has problems, why should the Germans be the moralizers “solving” them? What is Germany, the holy soldier of Austerity? Go back to have your fucking Deutsche Mark and being unable to export unemployment with a chronically devalued Euro, then we’ll talk…
Yes.. Germany is very wealthy and can afford it whilst Greece is basically bankrupt
It is not Germany alone that forks out the money unfortunately-we all did too
German bankers gave that loans without any …mind and corrupting our stupid govermend. But we have to pay their dirty games that the one ”stupid” gave to the other stupid millions for…fyn. Hitler took ALL our gold from our bank and never gave us a sent. ALSO HE DESTROED EVERYTHING
Not really, UK, France and Italy are wealthier.
Mr Kurtzio.German has a public debt of 2,2 trillion billl!!!!.Yet through eurozone structure pays 00000 interest on its debt.Italy pays for the dame sum 2% AT LEAST 44 billion euros annually.Germany is governing EUROZONE from the start and steals all other members through ECB ,ESM etc controlled 100% by mr Schauble kind of German
Yes, with the condition of responsible governing and finances. Laws shoud be made to make new debts illegal.
Greece is paying already no interest. So no effect on the state budget. The debt is never repaid but always just prolonged. Because nobody is giving Greece any money, they have to beg the other nations, so they can refinance the debt. In return the other just want to control that Greece is really doing reforms to get into the 21. century and not staying in the 18. The only effect of a debt cancel would be that the other can not control the progress of reforms and that is exact what Tsipras wants. He just wants to print money and distribute it to clienteles again.
Tobias Stricker good Point .I partially agree on most points even though the entire affair is quite complex. The state of the Greek economy was well known even before the Olympic Games in 2004 but everyone kept silent just to get the contracts and a big chunk was taken by German companies ie Siemens etc. And conclusively yes Greece is a corrupt country but this corrupt establishment was supported and maintained from abroad in order to facilitate this kind of deals under the table . It takes two to tango.
Γιάννης Τσουνάκος And what? You basically have nothing to pay on the debt anymore, because the other took over. So they pay already much more than they ever earned. The point is about the future. Debt cancellation is about trust. Does anyone trust the Greek society to reform itself without control from outside? The obvious answer is no. To link the German debt cancellation after the WW2 with the mess in Greece is in this way totally misleading and absurd propaganda.
Tobias Stricker Germans committed war crimes in Greece during the WW2. They never paid for this. European union has transformed from an alliance to a german hegemony.
Παπανικολάου Χρήστος Stupid propaganda. You should better focus on the future and real causes.
Tobias Stricker The fact that we pay no interests is a lie, but it is quite low ,around 2,2%.Someone wrote above that Germany’s debt is 3,2 trillion and the EU borrows your asses with no interest (0,0X %).If this is true, you and your crippling finance minister should be the last EU citizens pointing fingers to others.
Petros Papadimas Actually, nobody is pointing fingers. We are all humans. And as humans we always try the easy way, not the hard one. The pressure from outside should only assure that the Greek gov. is not slipping back in the easy way. Nobody, inside or outside Greece wants to make the Greek suffering or punish them or what ever. Everybody is working to bring Greece back on track. Basically everybody knows what has to be done: root out clientelism, (re)build the bureaucracy to a functioning level, bring back the wages in line with the productivity, … But what you can still see is that the government in Greece is even not really trying. Just the real tip of the iceberg of clientelism: still no taxation of the ship owner companies. The government is constantly fighting any changes instead of being proactive and reform the society in the way she beliefs it is the best way. And then you are surprised that the other do not trust the Greek society that they can reform themself…
Tobias Stricker i have to agree with you in regard to the functionality of the Greek state due to bureaucracy but mainly corruption. Living here I experience it on a daily basis. Now in regard to the tip of the iceberg of clientelism the taxation of Greek shipowners I can tell you from experience being a Merchant Navy Captain my self and coming in contact with German colleagues I found out that German shipowners are of the hook as well even more than they German counter partners. There is no way to control shipowners!!
http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/leck-an-steuerbord-wie-deutsche-reeder-millionen-sparen/11346304.html
Tobias Stricker as you can see it is not all ” Black and White”
Γιάννης Τσουνάκος There is a difference between no taxation and low taxation.
Πέτρος Παπαδήμας the biggest crimes against the Greek nation in our modern history have been committed by our corrupt political establishment and it is time to face the truth and not trying to find scapegoats!!! Yes history is undeniable but you should look into the future .
Tobias Stricker im telling you from experience that German shipowners pay much less in compare to their Greek colleagues. This is just a tool of populist and the Bild Zeitung.
http://www.diewunderbareweltderwirtschaft.de/2015/02/ach-bild-boese-griechen-milliardaere-keine-steuern.html
No. It is just that the E.U. is violeting every humanitarian law possible inside the eurozone. No strings attached though.
Yess. Germany get the fresh start and so should give one to another. They can afford it !
HELL NO…HOW DARE THOSE GREEKS THROW A 30 YEAR OLD PARTY AND NOT PAY THE BILL AFTERWARDS…ONLY WAR ,GENOSIDE AND BLOODBATHS OF EPIC PRPOPORTIONS ARE FREE IN THIS CONTINENT , I STAND WITH Andreas Tsa AND Renato Tuveri-Ellis ALONG WITH ALL OTHERS NAY SAYERS…!
Yes, and should have been a long time ago.
click on this image to see who has been benefiting… https://www.facebook.com/Diem25HU/photos/a.603202976501383.1073741828.587161164772231/800901500064862/?type=3&theater
Why not ?!
Let’s assume we don’t know that a lot of conditions will be established under the table for this debt to vanish. It will never be forgiven from debt but enslave more by those condition which of course won’t be made public. Fuck mercy, fuck slavery and come with a plan not this pathetic bargain to take their land
Let’s assume we don’t know that a lot of conditions will be established under the table for this debt to vanish. It will never be forgiven from debt but enslave more by those condition which of course won’t be made public. Fuck mercy, fuck slavery and come with a plan not this pathetic bargain to take their land
Let’s assume we don’t know that a lot of conditions will be established under the table for this debt to vanish. It will never be forgiven from debt but enslave more by those condition which of course won’t be made public. Fuck mercy, fuck slavery and come with a plan not this pathetic bargain to take their land
Let’s assume we don’t know that a lot of conditions will be established under the table for this debt to vanish. It will never be forgiven from debt but enslave more by those condition which of course won’t be made public. Fuck mercy, fuck slavery and come with a plan not this pathetic bargain to take their land
Austerity keeps Greece in recession, they are in perpetual debt unable to pay it off: a whole nation in debt slavery. The economy needs a boost through higher consumption and exports.
Greece should be given a relief on the interest and have its debts rescheduled.
European public procurement should give a preference for Greek products when the quality is suitable and the price is no more than 5% higher than the next lowest price.
It’s sounds like a good plan 😉
All the countries have depths and are forced to take more and more loans in order to cope with their domestic needs..why this is happening really?The depth of Greece is not even correct estimated,economists all over the world have proved that is much lower but creditors don’t want to hear about, as their profits from it are tremendous and Germany has huge benefits from the “hole situation..” I know that the depths of Germany after the 2WW were deleted (!!!) but I have never understand the reason …
I can thing a thousand reasons however for Greece !
These are not the same circumstances…
Of course not .. Greece didnt start the bloodiest war in history ..
But Germany is not that corrupted as Greece! This has nothing to do with war. It is all about economics and self commitment and, more important, commitment to its citizens.
Germany has always had surpluses and always did its best to have sound fiscal finances, even if it started the bloodiest war ever. It’s not the same era. They learned from their mistakes. Greece not. …
Enjoy your day anyway!
Chisty Pqy Oh yes! Punish those lazy Greeks, my Führer!
Lol… waw! What a constructive comment!
«My Führer»… you should be ashamed.
I wish you a good day.
Chisty Pqy All that dept we have now to pay is bullshit to be honest. You didn’t want to “help” Greece, all you did was help yourself pay your Banks (France and Germany mostly) And when I say you, i’m talking bout the politicians ofc, because like it or not all our countries are corrupted. The only one who may not be corrupted is Russia, when you see from where Putin took Russia to now..
Chisty Pqy pretty much of the corruption in Greece has German origin see Krupp and Siemens. . christoforakos case etc German politicians aren’t saints. ..
So, the fact that an entire people is led by allegedly corrupt politicians justifies the letting them starve to death. Interesting point of view, very human indeed.
We can look that from different angle, every summer since Greece debt crisis start, they negotiate receiving help to make the payments… So question is how long it will take with this progression to fix it… Or will 50 years from in the beginning of summer 2067 Greece again will negotiating getting help to make the payments… and what is the price to cause lil’bit of stress in the system every summer in next 10-20-50 years …
Yes but the structure of the Greek system must change completely!
It won’t
Eurobonds, that’s the sanest thing to do, otherwise this just keeps going and going
If Greece should pay debt, Germany should pay also to Czech republic.
Definately yes. A debt jubilee and start again. Take banks out of private hands. Enough is enough. They destroying society when it doesn’t even have to be that way.
Greece has a tendency to go into debt and default.
Dino Boy Mican Tbh too mych corrupted people
Like, there’s no one right now to take the lead who’s not corrupted
The whole financial system serves the mega-rich and makes those in government that enable this to happen rich. It is a corrupt sytem.
Why?
I asked first
Also, you have to justify the change not me.
Porque, a Grécia perdeu dinheiro com o perdão da dívida a Alemanha… Foi um gesto de solidariedade, portanto parte dos gregos que não ficava mal a Alemanha fazer o mesmo agora… Papeis invertidos..
Yes. Danger is Greece will create new superdebt soon.
Nobody obliges banks or whatever to give loans to Greece…
Perdoas a dívida e crias um circulo vicioso de incapacidade de recuperação económica, no inverso, impões dificuldades e o país acaba por prosperar ou definhar. Olha para Portugal, olha para todos os países que passaram por um mau bocado, se descem muito acabam por retornar à média.
Então porque razão perdoaram a Alemanha? Talvez sem o perdão da altura não tinhas Alemanha poderosa de hoje…
Perdoar também não acho que seja justo… Mas há que sim renegociar a dívida pública… Portugal foi além da austeridade… E os resultados estão visto, uma sociedade mais empobrecida, receitas aplicadas que não tiveram o efeito desejado…
Porque o contexto era totalmente diferente, os alemães estavam fragilizados económica, social e moralmente de tal forma que mais stress levaria a que definhassem. Já era demasiado
Agora, tens alguma retoma, mas não é fixa, ou seja depende do turismo essencialmente
Os gregos não, vêm de um regabofe de má gestão. Vais recompensar essa má gestão com um resgate? Não, deixa os aprender
E na Grécia? Tens ideia do que país e a sociedade esta a passar? Slick é por isso que acho que devemos todos fazer os training courses que eu fiz e estou a fazer… Porque assim conheces realidade desses países, como o caso da Grécia… Um país fragilizado com tanto anos de austeridade
Um Portugal mais empobrecido? Eu vejo um Portugal a florescer e com potencial de crescimento, vejo ânimo nas pessoas, vejo vitória cultural, finalmente. Nem tudo são indicadores macro económicos
Queres comparar os dramas da Grécia com a Alemanha depois de sair da SEGUNDA GUERRA MUNDIAL?
Lol slick lá está, sai de Lisboa, e vais encontrar o verdadeiro problema grego, ou pelo menos tenta ter informação de alguém que vive mesmo no país…
Porque é que não me dizes tu
No. If they do that they should gave us money for what we have paied
You gave no money. They have told you so, but it’s not true…
Really? Portugal paid a lot of money to Europe and people here made huge efforts, a lot loose money, jobs and other things because that Euro policies and IMF.
Now we are on a good track. If Greece debt will be forgiven, so portuguese debt must be forgiven too and all the money we paid must return.
You should research where your money goes.
You should research all of what you’re saying actually. Nothing to do with Greece. Besides, the greek debt is inflated and exaggerated to keep the greek government in line.
Ja te disse tens uma sociedade fragilizada, cheia de dramas sociais, crime etc fruto de mais de 8 anos de austeridade… Como te disse para conhecer realidade de um país estár no sofá na Internet não chega…. E tu como um gajo das RI devias saber o quanto manipulada é a informação que nos chega… Infelizmente
Mas a pergunta aqui é se deve ou não ser perdoada. A minha resposta é não, renegociar? Tudo bem,perdoar não
Yes, but with conditions ( for it’s own sake), otherwise it will fail again. Greece is a very corrupted country under the rule of 2 families. A lot of “laundry” to be done.
YES! What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!
We need an honest debate about public debt in EU.That didn’t happened before because Tsipras put always the blame on German Government für bailout.
I invested as a private Investor into Greek Bonds (I knew there was a high risk of default). There was nothing as a “voluntary haircut”, I received for one bond more than 20 new bonds with a very low nominal value and something similar to an option based on the Greek GDP. I have never in my life thought these deals would be possible, but I was wrong. Banks, Hedge Funds and others people could make billions because they had insider knowledge and could negotiate with European Politicians. I would have rather lost all my money and support Greece with a new beginning than such a shameful deal !
Me too. I’ve lost about 30.000€…
Yes, since its a result of financial colonization activity. BUT the most important, let them become productive independent again. Open top schools, share fresh knowledge, let them feel confident again and set socially fair, simple and clear rules. Let Greece become the euro-miracle example for world. Other wise who is going to take EU seriously, the moment cant make it with just 10 million souls who actually perform super fine in other systems ???
Yed
Germans want their taxes and money but we want our Gold that Hitler took from our bank destroying everythink. Roads electricity banks factories. Its second time that germany destroy Greece and they are responsible for the money that they own too…
Only crazy (or corrupt)gives millions to poor countries and then blame only them. Except if the want collonies and that was a plan of occupation()
Ask it back to americans then.
It might be crazy but germans already sacrificed twice, why should they a third time?
It is a solution to resolve and avoid the spreading misery. But at the same time, just suppress the debt is not enough regarding the ethic and put the conditions to avoid another risk of bankruptcy. At the beginning, some people in the Greek’State and financial institutions created some financial product and tricks to falsify the real state of the Greek economy. Some people (not all the people who are suffering now) lied and cheated, there are no justice actions or investigations about them and their responsibility. Be sure that suppress the debt with the same kind of people in the administration and financial expertise will reach the same debt situation again. These people deserve a trial because they lead badly the country for their own interests. These trials are also a true signal and put a limit to avoid to redo the same lies
Yes, every someone debt is someone else’s credit, so someone gave greeks a credit upon a certain interest and a certain level of risck.
by the way, the eurozone is not sustainable and this situation will be propagated forever as the gap between the countries is not even reducing.
Either we create a single nation WITH CONTINUOS internal transfer towards the poorest regions (basically from central europe to PIIGS), either we dismantle this system and we go back to national currencies.
The first option has zero possibility to be actualized (ask a German to pay for the greeks), hence, the only way to save EU is to dismantle the euro.
Yes. If not ask Germany to pay their debt and alla the country in EU will be richer
Small difference:
Greece got that money and wasted it, while Germany had no money at first place, and most of this “debt” was make up based on “how much reparations we want”. Germany had close to none benefits from those “missing money”, while Greece had quite good life in expense of EU…
as usual in central europe, you are speaking about topics. time ago jews and now others nations. Proste nadutec.
So you say greece should start a war to have its debt excused. Interesting, spongebob
You have to do some maths before talking.
Kimon Michailidis No, I’m saying that loan is different than reparations. One is wealth transfer from one party to another with intention to get it back one day, while another one is demanding something from others just because they lost war even you didn’t gave them anything.
So if Greece would start a war it should pay their debt AND reparations, cause these both responsibilities has different origins.
What about the “loans “that Germany forcibly took from occupied countries like Greece during ww2 ? We forgot about that? There was also “forgiven” and they had nothing to do with ” reparations “
Παυλος Χαραλαμπους If I break into your house and take your property would it be loan? No.
And in war it’s called bounty and works same as reparation: loosing side must compensate winners expenses.
Vytautas mate, you need to improve both your spelling, logic and financial skills. You are comfortable with war related money and not bonds
Vytautas Vėžys the German government forced the national bank of Greece to give a series of loans between 1941 to 1943 it’s a historic fact ,actually the German government started to repay those loans right after the war and the stopped in the early 50 s ..
Porque é que a divida deles têm que ser perdoada? Quando nós fomos chupados até ao tutano?
Se eles não conseguem paciencia, continuem a pagar.
Se for perdoado, a divida portuguesa também deve ser e todo o dinheiro que se pagou deve ser restituído.
debt from banks are not public debt but privat. Not socialize losses, while are privatizing profits.
that was tough buddy! as written, in 1953 Greece forgive Germany’s dept, why not do the same?
Greeks are not that poor. I don’t see millions of Greeks working abroad in other EU countries as Romanians and Bulgarians do. If they continue to live in Greece, that means life is still good there and they still have money. If any country, Germany included, has something to give back to Greece, then they should return what they took from them. But money should not be taken from the EU budget. It wouldn’t be fair, especially for the poorest EU nations.
I hear you but please get your facts straight.The actual situation in Greece is not even close to what you have just described.
Μάρω Λιόλη What do you mean? That countries like Romania and Bulgaria should contribute to saving Greece? Our hospitals look like jails, our roads are awful, our salaries are a joke…I fully agree to have everyone who got Greece into this situation to pay, but only the guilty parties. Otherwise, we will end up making the same mistake we did after the economic crisis: we take money from the people and give them to the banks, making the rich people even more rich.
Maricela Potoc.Numai statele din zona euro contribuie la “salvarea” Greciei.Asa ca stai linistita ca nu o sa ia grecii Romaniei si Bulgariei painea de la gura.Asta e in grija politicienilor din aceste tari ;). In ultimii ani au plecat o gramada de greci din tara.Mai ales tineri si mai ales tineri scoliti.
Greece has been impoverished by this soul crushing debt and austerity. Thousands have left Greece because there’s no hope for them there. They need to restructure the debt to make it manageable and enable recovery
more than half a million people left Greece seens 2010… .girl just go out of your cave and you will see for yourself
Cave?! That is so lame… Frustrated much? We are just talking here. There is no point to get irritated.
Ok let’s but it this way. In the good days parents used to give almost all their savings for their children education, that’s means that a big part of the young adults now days have university level education,and they’re exactly the people that immigrate to other countries from UK to Australia and Canada and from Europe to north Africa private and public sectors are filled with young Greek scientists from mechanical engineers to doctors and lawyers you name it.actually that’s the worst thing that can happen now because we need that kind of people to produce growth
The only thing that could save us all is a fair European minimum wage that will allow anyone who works 8h/day to fully cover the expenses of food, shelter, bills and going out with friends. What is happening now in Greece has been happening with Romanian graduates after communism and it never stopped since. If things won’t change, you will only get poorer unfortunately… luckily automation is advancing fast enough and the world will shift with it. If they won’t accept the minimum wage, they will need to accept minimum income when there will be no jobs for humans anymore.
Thomas de Roeper dit is best een interessant vraagstuk….
No, but I have nothing against Greece and the Greek people…
I think it’s a question of justice for other EU member countries with similar problems.
Greece is not or has recently been at war ?… but the abuses were to many…
Normally ,we have to forgive every debt… Enough with the crisis.
Greeks are victims of their ruling class!
We have to forgive every debt enough with the crisis.
Facts are facts. The Greek people can’t support paying off a debt for which numerous corrupt governments are responsible for… so yes go ahead and kill them.. a slow, painful death. Elderly people slowly dying confined in their small apartments, giving their extra 100 eur to their grandchildren to help, young adults not affording to have children, middle-aged people unemployed for years, now unemployable, university graduates fleeing the country in hundreds every year …..
Yes, that should teach them a lesson! (Σαρκασμ)
Poor Greeks… but then again Poor Eastern Europeans who live in worse conditions than Greeks and will and up paying for their debts…
Greeks was leaving far worse than the Germans in the 50 s as a matter of fact far worse than any eastern European ever been but they did what they should
Absofuckinlutely!!!!
YES §§§§
Yes, but don’t forget the Greek politicians are corrupt and lazy, so in the years ahead they will find the way and borrow more money again again, so there is no end in this game.
Forgive debt, but also execute politicians :D
No, because they are gonna overspend again . They have to learn the lesson .
The main debt is political so first we execute the whole parliament and all existent political parties and after a fresh political restart we can erase the debt.
We can’t say anything. We haven’t got the numbers. We just can talk about emotional stuff.
Forgiven? That is why the British people voted for Brexit, and other europeans countries will follow. Europeans are sick and tired of this Greek mismanagement. If Europeans subsidize again Greek economy, they will never ever learn about fiscal responsibility, and disciplie. Sometimes in life we learn from our failures, and mistakes. Now it is the turn for Greece!
I wish you not to be ever in greek situation .
Actually, I have been there 😀 I lived in Peru, in the 90’s. After 25 years of redistributive policies, overspending, hyperinflation, mismanagement, and political corruption, the country was living its worst economic, political, and social crisis. There was no bread, or milk. But we changed our policies. It took years to create an environment for growth, and investment. It was not easy. It was a long, complicated process of economic adjustment. Greece can take the path of prosperity, and wealth, if they adopt new policies for job creation, and growth.
There is a omission in your disertion. The greek debt origin is in private banks. They have transferred their irrational decisions as public obligations and duties for the society. Thus, there is no reason for people to pay for something they did not do. It is a genocide.
Yes but is going to need investments in order to stand on her fits, just like Americans did in the German case..
Germany didnt owe its success to american investment but its manufacturing capabilities, which it managed to protect during the course of war. Whereas Greece doesnt have a industrial base and largely depends on tourism.The situation is not comparable. By the way do you have a clue how much Eu funding/ european tax money Greece has received since the 80s ?
Manufacturing capabilities? Can you remain me who owns Mercedes Benz? Opel? Even group vag was originally funded by the American army. ..and you really want to talk about how Greece lost most of its industrial capabilities?thank god am old enough to remember the days when farmers was payed to destroy their products because they were “producing to much “or the period that you could still see Greek made cars rolling on the streets. ..
Only idiots believe in Greek touristic myth. Greece has the biggest labour flit of Europe and that’s not the only Greek industrial capability. But idiots are idiots anyway who enforce Turkish imperialism for decades.
Tourism and shipping became the only ” industries “of Greece because they was the only ones allowed to exist…
Yes at once.
Claro que não, o perdão da dívida alemã foi um erro, porque isso poderá ter levado os lideres políticos a pensarem que podem contrair dividas sem controlo que depois são perdoadas e por isso chegamos a este ponto e poderá continuar a ser feito no futuro. As dividas não são para ser geridas como já disse um ex-governante português, são para ser evitadas. Porque um estado contraí dívidas, alguns ganham com isso e outros têm de pagar.
I mean if greece can ask for such a thing .. then every other country will have the right to ask for it as well for exemple us portugal would def be in the right to ask for such a thing ! No, rules were made so we could organize things in a proper way if they have to pay they have to pay and thats it, stop crying about it and pay its no ones fault you asked money from everyone for a few decades and now cant payback !
Greeks will choose soon to leave European Union because of this hostile confrontation. And they will have nothing to lose anymore making that choice. Enough is enough.
Μη λες μεγάλες κουβέντες….
Καλά οκ !
Germany got loans from Greece and other countries in order to make war and kill inocent people. Germans you don’t remmember that Greece cancel your debt. Ingratitude wins in this world .
Off course. If not forgiven the country will never be able to recover and it will for always be a political heaven for Communists,Nazis and other loonies that cannot wait to exploit the misery and desperation of ordinary Greeks for political gain. Give the Greeks a 2th chance!
It has been already, forgot the 2012 haircut?
its a bit more complicated than that mate
The 2012 haircut mostly effected Greek citizens. ..because of it for months we had 2 or 3 suicides per day. .
At the start of this debate I replied YES. Now I ve changed my mind having read what the whinging Greeks have written here. It’s NO
We are not all the same!
Why? Was Greece destroyed in a war or something????
Yes.In the WW2 by the germans.Have a peek ;) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distomo_massacre
Ubelievable.
EVERYBODY pumped up money in your country after the war, but you seem to forget it. Now you continue to live beyond your means and want the rest of us to pay for your sirtaki 👹👹👹
Carmen Rodikaa learn some history
Obviously that’s what should happen
If EU ended up with the austerity programs the debt would be decreased… When the crisis started it was about the same as it is now after 8 years of cuts and increased taxes! So I would prefer if EU stopped helping us! Thanks!
YES DAMN RIGHT !!!!!!
Greek government should be bankrupt. Let the private sector do what needs to be done.
If someone is profitable, he found a low-cost way to meet the demand of a need. If he is not profitable, he ought to be out of the market. Why the government can run on deficits, while a citizen cannot?
This is just not fair.
How can the government compete to get better, in the contemporary regime?
So no hospitals also simply if you get ill you are dying if you are lucky you leave if you have money you get education if not you become a caveman! Nice way of thinking bro 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Who told the people in Greece that hospitals and other vital aspects of an economy have to be provided by public sector?
Maybe they could be the guys wanted to have power over citizens..
And what is the alternative? If you don’t have money you die on the hospital’s sstaircase,fair enough after all a private company mast always make profits
So you want slave doctors?
Because becoming a doctor takes much more time than getting training in anything else.
But you going eventually to have slave labor if there is no government to set the rules, why to pay your work force when you can just feed them enough to stay in life? Yeah! More profits just like the Ottoman empire
Because, in the contemporary economic environment, a streamlined business would need properly educated workers, sometimes less could be more. Thus, you want them to have free choice in education and in the economy. Not what big government has done, getting them all into college, to get more votes.
Ottomans have disappeared for the reason you have mentioned.
” sometimes less could be more ” some how it doesn’t makes any sense at all, more than the half Greek work force are getting wages close to 200€-300€ especially young people are getting less or no money at all and of course the ruling class is getting all the profit,if this isn’t a modern form of slavery i don’t know what it’s,
Ps the ottomans didn’t disappeared the were overthrown simply because people didn’t like to work for free
Ok I’m not good with words, they were overthrown.
Having public sector providing healthcare, education and all the vital aspects for its citizens, using it’s monopolistic regulation and strategies to overcome competition, how is gonna make young people better off; I cannot think a way.
All you got in Greece is the large public sector, struggle businessmen to death, in order for the public workers to keep their current position and to pay the large outflows in pensions. Both of those two aspects of the public sector have grown using deficit spending, loans.
No young man can start a new business, nor older guys are opening new businesses, due to heavy taxation. Who do you think made such unemployment figures that big?
Who is benefited by heavy taxation in the long run? if not the big corporations..
Nomade Charitopoulos κανε μας περηφανους
Ti les re nomade sovara
Public sector it’s not bigger than the European average it’s ineffective and if you want my personal opinion all these public workers how behave like spoiled kids should be replaced by young and educated people willing to work with salaries and benefits close if not the same to the private sector,even the IMF proposed such a strategy. ..about the taxes, most of the m are going to the government’s debt and almost the rest of them to pensions that isn’t my or your fault it’s has to do with the “baby boom” in order the system to work you need 5 new people entering the market for every 1 pension been payed.back in the 50s it was just fine because of the baby boom but it’s seems that none though that population will stop growing one day actually a similar system existing in countries like Germany and Australia, have you ever wonder why it’s quite easy to get German citizenship or why Australia asked for 8 millions immigrants? Aging population is the answer. ..
Public pension funds are a Ponzi scheme. In private financial sector, such as mutual funds, pension plans investing capital in low risk assets, compounding the profits for decades. If I, as an individual, do a scheme like the one gov’ment does, i’ll end up facing jail time.
It’s not the baby boomers, it’s the wrong investment plans. Public funds keep on investing on the same assets for years, not taking into account pivotal factors, such as population growth.
From 1971, they could just print more money to have the monetary figures according to their needs.
On the other issue, the greater the benefits the greater the number of immigrants, economics 101.
Les eeee
Yes but only if Greece will be part of a more integrated European Union. We can not forgive Greek debt and than having a grexit
Germany deserves NO forgiveness. Germany is genetically nazi. No more, no less.
Yes it should. Greece has learned
Yes, I think we should erase the debt and explain that we do it to help the population victim of corrupt elite and government and not the government itself. Then, we shouldn’t grant more debt though
I remember that among Greece there were more countries… They are managing to pay their part?
Isn’t this just a cause of all the corruption installed?
Of course it should!! How in hell would Greece recover from total destruction after a terrible war then? Oh, wait… #bloodycontext
NO! Lazy people..
I assure you you have no idea
Of course the average Greek is working more hours and days per week than the German but the Greek is lazy one. ..f******k logic
Lazy is your fracken ass you stupid nazi
Come in Greece and you’ll find out!
Along with Irish debt so.
Yes it should. Clearly Grecce has no way to pay it and therefore it seems useless to be sending more money to keep thing like they are. If not forgiven, at least make the debt for life with no interests, so that Greece can restart again and once they are ok pay tge debt with time…
There was a war? I thoght greeks just stole the money
And what the German did in the 40s ? LEARN SOME HISTORY! ..Christ!
Mantas Rukuiza…you think wrong. Nobody can steel from the thieves. They know better always!
Moral hazard is a difficult issue. But Greece has already seen a writedown of privately owned debt and its economy is still not recovering. Given the continued hardship of the country, I would support a reasonable writedown of publicly owned debt, say, of 25%.
The Greman debt relief not only was that high but also connected the Payment level over the years with the growth of the country. This drove German exports and growth since that meant the fastest repayment of the remaining debt. In the Greek case, we only have austerity/tax-related measures.
Ont eh other hand Greek governments since 2009 have refrained from doing any restructuring of the Public Sector.
Greek main revenue comes from maritime and construction industry, Taxing the maritime industry is practically impossible while over taxing construction has led to almost the extinction of the industry.
And yes there are Greek that go into a pension on their 40/50s, mind you these belong very specific casts with powerful syndicates that operate with impunity and the support of the government.
Worst of all corruption has reached such a level that if you don’t participate you are considered an idiot.
Greece does not need Debt relief that much as real growth (in contrast to what we see now tax-induced growth)
An initial package like the deal in 1953 might just help given there is a governmental will to move away from the current model.
As things are Greece will be in this state till the end of times
This SHOULD go without saying! The money that the EU supposedly “gave” to Greece went straight to the banks and anyone with half a neurone knows this already. The Greek people were left to suffer and many committed suicide due to cuts (it’s still happening). Shame on the EU for this incredible miscarriage of justice.
I was reluctant at first, but maybe Greece does deserve the same treatment as Germany, under the assumption that it is a corrupt/illegitimate republic that was responsible, rather than the citizens. Would Greece really be willing to completely abolish the Hellenic republic and parliament in its current form, have external powers run the entire country and civil service completely for a decade (not just negotiate about budgets), and after this build a new non-corrupt democracy? It that were to happen, I bet there would be strong support for massive debt forgiveness. However, as an external observer it appears Greece mostly wants debt forgiveness to avoid reform rather than embrace it.
why do you think Europe wants so much money from Britain fo leaving Europe even trump has said so Europe is in so much
Debt if Britain said No Europe is dead,THE WHOLE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT KNOWS THIS,over a trillion euros Europe owes the EU,which is growing,ever month this debt is bigger and now they want more money for a army
No, but the repayment should have been extended to allow Greece to get back on feet in 2009. Now the damage is already done.
No because the problem in Greece is not the dept but the mechanisms that creates it. The Greek state is the problem
Every time I read about concentration camps, I always wonder how they found the Jews who would be policemen of their own people for the SS for an extra ration of bread. Then I read this and get my answer.
Maybe next time Hans comes for vacation you should just throw in your wife and sister for good measure. Then they ll really like you.
Doubt it
Well, allow me to insist. I am a Greek, and I m into Greek politics for most of my adult life. Greek Politicians, and as extend a big portion of Greek citizens, are deeply corrupted, and they create a system that is not sustainable, and they are ready to defend this system till the end. That was one of the reasons, i was forced to leave Greece to search for a better future.
We all know that, even in the 80 when the colonels’ regime collapse and that we had to decide to integrate Greece in the EU process or not.
And later when I came for the Euro which you didn’t respected the economical criterias to blend in with others economies.
But know they have made, at least at the state level, deep changes but the crushing weight of the debt isn’t helping outsiders to believe in the potential of the country. But anyway, it represents almost nothing 2-3% at best of the global gdp of EU. It’s not like patching up the bleeding at least a bit would fragilise the rest and give a bit of rest to the people…
So far, every “safe” conservative plans haven’t made things progress. I mean, yes there was a cleansing with the assests and management of the state but the national economy doesn’t seem to improve it’s condition.
I know greeks aren’t fond of taxes and administration too but I guess they might have learned the lesson now !
Δεν αναιρει το ενα το αλλο φιλε.Το οτι το συστημα ειναι σαπιο δεν σημαινει οτι δεν πρεπει να διαγραφει ενα μεγαλο μερος του χρεους. (Το οποίο είναι όντως παράνομο)
Arthur Gustin The EU has its fair share when it comes to Euro. Back then i was younger than 15 years old, but still i could understand that something is going very very wrong with the Greek economy. Its impossible for the whole EU army of bureaucrats to not suspect that the stats are cooked.
Since 2009, we had 3 different governments in Greece. A Socialistic government, a right-wing government (they also claim to be liberal) and a leftist government. None of the three did any change in the state in order to improve the Greek economy. They only put more and more taxes, and at the same time they reduced the government services or the quality of them. The problem with all the Greek parties is that they depend on armies of public servants they hired. Most of these public servants are producing nothing more than bureaucracy, noone is checking their performance (or even if they go to work). In the same page, some of the public sector syndicates are demanding more privileges and higher salaries, and the government used to give them whatever they wanted, just because they were voters. Another big problem is that there are a lot of 40-50 pensioners, who got their pension illegal. There are pensioners in Greece that gave to the treasury 68€ and they got back more than 200.000€. The difference is covered by who? The tax payer (who cannot hide his incomes) These are just some of the problems with the Greek state and economy, and as you can see a very big part of the Greek people are involved in all these frauds.
Another huge problem with the Greek economy is the murky tax system. The legislation is huge and is changing all the time, noone really knows what is going on, and the tax payers have no idea what might happen tomorrow. The government might decide to increase the taxes, or put new taxes here and there, so a business cannot make a financial plan for the upcoming years.
7 years have passed since the Greece entered the memorandum era, and there has been 0 improvements in the whole system. It only got worse and worse, and it is going to be even worse the following years, because there is (almost) no voice of common sense in the Greek politic scene.
Dimitris Poulis επέτρεψε μου να πω ότι δε γνωρίζω. Αυτό που θέλω να επισημάνω όμως είναι, πως το πρόβλημα της Ελλάδας, δεν είναι μόνο το χρέος, αλλά οι μηχανισμοί που το αναπαράγουν. Εαν καταφέρει η Ελλάδα και διορθώσει τα θεσμικά της προβλήματα, τότε θα έρθει η ώρα να κοιτάξουμε για το εαν το χρέος είναι απεχθές, και να αποδοθούν και ευθύνες.
Не. Германия трябва да завладее Европа.
10 years ago? Absolutely. Today? Germany should pay reparations on levels it paid to Israel after ww2. The austerity measures forced on them by Berlin and the Troika have tanked Greek GDP down by a bigger percentage than when the Third Reich invaded them in 1941.
Any Germans who even mentions lazy Greeks who overspend and overborrowed should be immediately forced to read and recite the well documented fact that most Greek bond holders are German banks who overlent knowing there was a risk like in any investment, and all the money “given” in the rescue deal hits the Greek treasury and returns right back to said bond holders who will be paid back dollar for dollar on principal AND interest, even if it means ordinary Greeks dying from lack of medical care of pension cuts.
That shit should be punishable like Holocaust denial.
Yes, but only if Greece agrees to abandon the Euro and return to the Drakhma.
The whole point of the bailout was to prevent a run on European bonds in Portugal and later Spain and Italy who are too big to bail out. The Greeks should have switched to the Drakhma as soon as the troika set it’s conditions and they would be out of their mess by now. They are in the mess they are in because they are a domestic consumption driven nation which can inflate it’s debts make its exports more competitive and become a cheaper tourist destination via their own monetary policy. The Euro screws then in all three areas.
Actually it was to prevent a run from irish bonds, not Portugal’s. Ireland’s bailout was the one made to prevent a run from portuguese bonds.
The bailout order was Greece – Ireland – Portugal – Spain – Cyprus
Yes . Greece can not pay this debt . Young greeks are not guilty because their corrupted gvts.. But at the same time , Greece should do some efforts in order to have an efficient tax system…
It was the mechanisms of the euro that completely dragged not only Greece but those states that couldn’t rival the Deutsch Mark. The Greek governments only asked for one option and that was to reduce the amount on payments…
No, in this way, any country would try this way! Germany was ruined by war, it’s definitely a different story!
Germany ruined Greece during WWII and never recharged it s depths! And the history is repeated again nowadays!
Andreas Laskaris Well, I didn’t know that Greece was in any war recently….the Greeks was a very corrupt country, the corrupts should pay! Why don’t you get the money from those corrupts?
Doru Beldiman saying that mass murderers should b forgiven and corrupts not shows a lot of how you position yourself in this world.
Fernando Ferreira I never said that! I can’t say that, are you crazy? I consider that both Hitler as well as Stalin were mass murderers! So, don’t twist the words…
Germany created its dept in one decade. 1946-56. Never paid the loan that forced Greece during WWII for their army, or the damages they created to Greek infastracture. Greece is the only state that didnt got a cent from Germany for WWII.
Nikos Stavropierrakos Neither Romania! In fact, it had to pay a lot of money to Russia! The Greek people must understand that if it’s lead by corrupts, nobody is going to pay for corruption! Same here in Romania, in the last 28 years we are lead by a bunch of corrupts, who should pay ? Stop begging for money from others and clean Greece from corrupts! Greece is a wonderful country with great potential!
Excuse me, but if i remember correctly, Greeks were fighting against nazi Germany, and Romania on the side of fascism. Not comparable.
Germany provoked the wars,killing millions.wtf do u have in your head?
Angelos Stamatiou Yes, that’t true…so, what do you want now, to kill the Germans? Turkey invaded Europe, the Romans also….Spain and England killed Indians….and so on….
The difference is that Romans, Ottomans, Spaniardad, British, etc won the war…Germans lost it! So yes, should not have been spared a single dime and shouldn’t be allowed to reunite.
José Bessa da Silva so, let me get this straight, if a country wins a war that means they get glory and are excluded from suffering any backlash… even if their war was unjustified and not worthy of bloodshed?..
greece has a culture living on others money. forgiving debt will make this culture strong.
No we don’t actually, at least not that differently compared to other countries. You confuse Greece with those other countries who bomb or colonise 3rd World countries for their resources….Or who put NATO in front for this very reason.
The whole point of admitting Greece into EU was that Greek households were known for their fiscal conservativism and huge amounts of unused capital. Greeks have a long history of saving from generation to generation. So when you are attributing the culture of living on others money to Greek population you are most probably mixing your facts up. But no probs – could happen to anyone :)
If Greece don’t pay back, the others who lent the money have the problems.
So, there cann’t be answered Yes or No only. There has to be found another answer.
No. Germany dept should be paid, now that they can.
Definitely need some debt written off or it cannot recover.
The two debts have nothing in common.Our debt could be forgiven only if all the reforms that EU demands will be done.If not fair enough to forgive the debt and kick us out of EU.
This shouldn’t even be a topic for debate, given that the bulk of this debt is odious and simply lumped on the backs of hapless Greeks!!!
What is odious about it? Greek governments were falsifying economic data in order to obtain more loans then normally would have been possible. However now they suffered enough for it so they should be forgiven in order to enable them to move forward.
Germany made something with this money, but Greece will not, unfortunatly.
germania nu a platit mai nimic din enormele pagube atat materiale cat mai ales fizice provocata de ea in cele doua conflagratii mondiale pe care le-a provocat
It was Greece, who declared war on Germany, and it was Italy, who invaded first. Germany brought goods for the starving rightwing Greeks and had to fight the lefties. The greek gold has been brought to a english ship. The butcher Churchill often has been guest in Greece at wartime.
Rainer Hoffelner germania a adus peste 60 milioane de victime in cele doua razboaie mondiale.
Rainer Hoffelner Not true. When Italians invaded and lost they asked help from Germany. Germany wanted to have Greece in order to move its troops faster to Egypt. Those who were helping Germans had something to eat than those who werent and starving to death. Also the left and right part that you said isnt 100% right. They were right groops also that fought germans but yeah most of them were helping Nazis instead of lefties who were a fighting till the day 1.
The cause of the problem is the excessive number of public employees. This is the army of the party in power . Now is syriza before it was pasok and new democracy . So many ppl and so much bureaucracy. The private companies are heavily taxed in order to pay their wages.
A part of this Greek debt was already forgiven. We cannot hide Greek deficiencies by forgiving a higher quantity. It’s not serious. If Mr. Tsipras doesn’t adopt efficient policies to balance his home situation, there’s no point in helping Greek government again.
You re right that we must adopt efficient policies. Germany behaves as the bad boy of europe bulying Greece but never paid not a cent for forced loans or infastracture disaster they created during WWII…
Parte da dívida foi perdoada mas a oportunidade de retomar a economia foi perdida pelas condições imbecis de austeridade a que a Grécia foi sujeita. O próprio FMI reconhece isso.
Greeks have already payed a heavy price for their irresponsible debts and forgery of economic data, now they should be exempted at least partially so as to enable them to move forward.
Are you sure Germany have never paid for the dusaster of the WWII? I don’t think so. Germany was paying the bill of the WWI for nine decades and it was the same in that case (so a part of its debt was forgiven in 1953, there are no other main reason). Perhaps, Germany didn’t pay special bills for Greece but it was no obstacle for the existence of a bill in that WW.
Totally agree, George, so the EU forgave exactly the 53.5% of the debt. In this aspect, the EU cannot do anymore.
Aye
Да трябва защото и в библията го пише!Ако не си успял да си вземеш дължимото до определен срок(мисля че седем години беше)опрощаваш всичко!А те алчните кредитори искат да направят от съседите ни сгапота :) вечни длъжници!Не е редно така заради едната алчност да се постъпва с братя
Greece has primary budjet surplus.That means that if its interest rate on loans is close to zero as in ALL OTHER EUROZONE countries there will be no need for any other action.It is up to Drangi and E.C. and ESM without any cost to fix that immediatelly.
As of Germany sould pay Greece the 600 bln euros for WWII LOANS AND REPARATIONS acc international law and treaties
yes, and a long time ago.
The Greek economy was absolutely ruined by the austerity. The government hardly became more efficient, but they cut the wages/pensions/transfers so much that the decline in consumption has lasting economic effects. Greece has been seriously mismanaged and the EU shares the responsibility.
If the EU really wanted to help, it would have promoted the purchase of Greek products as a transitional measure. “Give the cow fodder instead of starving and milking it to death.”
The EU has 50 billion or more every year for the “refugees”, about half of whom are fakes, and continues to milk Greece dry. “Solidarity”? This is the biggest lie from Brussels
It’s not everything EU and Brussels you trouserpeasants. There are banks and other financial institutions and if you deal with them you must settle with them. EU member countries have appropriated money from their national budgets to deal with the migrant crisis. What does it has to do with Greeks taking up debt from financial institutions?
It should definitely be on the table.
Of course! Why should Germans be benefited and Greeks won’t??
YUUUUUUP!!! And thank you for equating these two things! This argument of Germany’s debt being forgiven after WWII – by former war enemies, not inside an economic, political and now social union that is – is being brought up way to rarely!
Better late then never
Forgiving the debt is one concept of the system that actually caused the crisis.. so the same mentality and its not gona make the economy stronger than it is.. you can’t fix the system with the same mentality that’s actually the core of the problem… they have to push down the taxes that already exist so it would be a opportunity there to invest in New areas…
Why not bulgarian as well ? Most retired people in bulgaria took 125€ pension per month.. In Greece 500€ ????
Perhabs those who wants that, will turn back the socialism and comunists in EU :D Stuppid people, more and more stuppid people debating things, which they don’t understand…
Go to work you lazy man. If you want a 500 euro pension pay your taxes.
Idiot we work and pay our taxes
This problem was brought on by the Greeks joing the euro and the public sector taking massive advantage of the cash available, obviously this couldn’t continue. The Germans and the EU couldn’t care less about the ordinary Greek people, just their doomed EU project.
English anti Europeans would you just find yourself an England themed debate page Pls. You wanted out now why are creeping always amongst us?
euro-dictatur
Well, they can’t obviously pay for it, so good sence tells to stop, renegociate and move forward.
Well said.
No. Greece needs to break the cycle of corruption and refusing to pay debts.
When Greece didnt pay the IMF or Euro??? Plz tell me or its Just you dreaming there???
Manos Foukarakis Buy a history book. Here is a history of Greece defaulting on its debts. https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0911/the-history-of-greek-sovereign-debt-defaults.aspx
But they payed already a heavy price . The debt today is not controllable anymore so it should be at least partially written off, to enable them to move forward.
George Guydosh No. This is the only way to break the cycle of running up debts and defaulting. Greece needs to turn away from corruption and debt mongering.
If they lived with incomes slashed to half for ten years then this is enough of a treatment.
What about Poland?
Germany should pay for his massive damage still being repaired
English anti Europeans should find themselves an England themed debating site.
Russian will tell you what 🤗
Yes, it should.
Of course. The huge greek debt was product of troika dictatorship and incompetence. The troika recognizes that so to continue in present path will only result in more radicalism in a geostrategic important country.
That’s now why we are broke right now…
Bullshit, Greeks should be exempted now from their debt, but the reason for their troubles is that they took too many loans based on falsified data.
You are broke because your governments falsified economic data during the 2000s and so it was able to obtain more loans then it normally should have been possible.
What happen whit the man whit motorcycle?:)
The debt is not the main problem here. Taxes are and should be decreased. Pensions too! The situation where pensioners exist like modern vampires sucking blood from the younger generation is the main reason why Greece is dying. Let the elterly pay for the debt from their pensions. Make them pay for what they did and still do to the young Greeks. Besides they created it. They are the main reason why Greeks don’t have kids anymore.
Remember that you’ll be old some day. Don’t forget your words about pensioners once you get there…
Listen and you might understand. Their pensions are payied by me right now. When I get old there won’t be anyone to pay for my pension. Why is that? Because I AM OVERTAXED and I CANT HAVE KIDS because I have to pay for their damn pensions. Their pensions are higher than I can pay so I can keep something for myself. I suggest you wake up and see who the real enemy is.
So, you can’t have kids because you’re burdened by taxes to sustain today’s pensioners, thus, you propose to let old people die poor, for you to pay less taxes, in order to be able to have kids, so that in the future those kids may be burdened by taxes to pay for your pension!
Right! No wonder you greeks are broke. With an egoistic though like that your debt is actually well suited.
And what do you suggest?
To live in poverty for the rest of my life to pay their pensions? And not have a family? Well f… them. And F…. YOU TOO!
Pay your bloody taxes and stop complaning.
You should live here and see. You’d sing a different song.
I live in a country under IMF’s orders too. I know I’m paying my taxes so that my parents can have a pension. I have no kids either and will never have (unless a mistake happens), and I’m glad that at least I will not see my parents in poverty. So, judging by your lack of values and egoism, I am indeed glad I’m not greek and that I don’t sing the same song as you.
Talk for yourself Jose not everybody…
Listen dude, Jose or whatever your name is. I don’t want to have kids for egoistic reasons or because I want someone to pay for my pension. I just want my kids to live and prosper in their lives. I want to be able to give them things instead of poverty. And I don’t care about how poor I’ll die as long as they are happy. Got it?
Jose not all greeks are the same as any other people actually. I disagree with Nick, who thinks the problem is the pensioners. Yes, indeed, there were excesses in some cases. Some people would retire rather early and some would get generous pensions. But this is not why Greece went bankrupt. The real issue is that we have a system which favors mostly the elites and the upper class who pay much less taxes than their european counterparts. And for sure tax avoidance is still a major issue and has not been tackled appropriately yet, in this case the wage earners are those who cannot hide their income compared to the self employed (who are a large percentage of the working age population). Not all self employed people are tax avoiders but many are. There are still many other reasons why greece is broken, corruption for starters by the super rich but let’s be real and by some ordinary people.
Greece also has a brain drain and huge diaspora. They don’t pay much in the way of remittances. Which sort of supports the idea that Greece is corrupt. How sad!
The high taxes you pay are to pay the debt. Take the debt service and a big relief on greek national accounts will probably give you a tax cut.
Tax avoidance is a natural outcome when you overtax the economy. It’s easy to talk about those bad people who don’t pay their taxes when you don’t work 16 hours a day and hardly making enough to feed your family. This is BS. Those people on the private sector are just trying to survive and they will wheather some people like it or not.
It should be and the Greek elites who SET greece up via their GoldmanSachs chums should all be jailed
So if your so angry on them why don’t you imprison them? Your political life is corrupt down to the marrow.
Of course not, the plan was always to bankrupt Nations in the EU to make it easier for Brussels to control them.
Anti European inbreads should find themselves an England themed debate page. They wanted out yet they keep creeping back.
George Guydosh We are leaving your pointless EU comrade, we are not leaving ‘Europe’. Now re-read the tile of this page and educate yourself. :)
Of course not.
No fucking way
Croatian, too
The problem is not the debt, but the austerity that kills the economy…
Yes as Greece forgive twice the German debt and Germany grow now is the time of Germany to forgive the Greek debt for once so Greece can grow as well
You are comparing Greece to Germany!? Really?
Of course there is no comparison, but greeks didnt start ww2, and moreover after greece was ruined by the war, the US didnt help greece, as much as it helped germany and japan. US helped the fasist regeims because they were close to communist Ussr and the americans needed strong allies close to russia.
When greece was asked about the dept, voted kindly, but germany now doesnt have that kindness.
So, if you want comparison, yes, we are kinder than germans.
Greece has not a nazi regime who slaughtered Europe. Indeed.
Well Germans have been exempted from their debt, it’s a fact. The Greek debt is not controlllable anymore so it should be written off to enable the Greeks to move on.
Christos Bossinakis Greece have been in the same situation 40 years ago and learned nothing from that. Germans on the other hand are the strongest economy in Europe. Greece got a chance in the 80-s when EEZ embraced it. Your mentality ruined it.
If it is of any consolation my country is the worst in the EU.
No!!! Lazy people must pay
hahahahahaha http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/nationalities-that-work-the-longest-hours/ Well yeah we may be working in average 139 more hours than latvians but we are lazy :p There are no lazy people. Even Germans who work 1,371 hours cannot be regarded as lazy.
It is my personal statement. Of course, not all, but as I saw personally for years working with plenty of companies and staff, it is what I can say for sure.
And, by the way, with my comment about Greek people I am not meaning how long they SPEND their day in a workplace, but HOW MUCH they work, doing their duties in real, with real result. So, in this case your link is simply nothing. I hope you know what I mean?
Greeks have already payed a heavy price for their irresponsible debts, but now their debt is not managable anymore, so at least partially should be written off, so as to enable them to move forward.
Partially may be, but not totally, anyway, they will start to think thy shouldn’t work anymore, because taxpayers of all EU meber countries will pay fir Greeks anyway, what they, as it seems, are still rhinking.
Hey colonel well informed !When Greece will have a good government to drill out our hydrocarbon your argument will be pointless !Also laziness is the first step to intelligence
Konstantinos Gerakaris Oh, good government is not only problem of Greece! I think most countries has idiots in their governments, at keas I can say fir sure about mine.
What about “laziness is the first step to intelligence” – it is the issue to think about… :D But… One thing I am sure for: laziness is nirmal, sweet and comfortable thing, unless it is starting to disturb anyone. I hope you have catched the meaning… If not, please ask me for explanation…
One day in the distant future, mankind will realize how absolete the global transactions system was for it’s time…
Oust sto diaolo mwri Voulgarikh patsavoura
Of course!!! Why not?. The Greek people have offered too much to European culture and deserve. It has suffered a lot and will be for us a great joy and happiness.
Of course not.
there’s no way they pay back the debt, so if we wanna Greece get out of the hole, debt should be forgiven
the only way for Greek people to pay is with their lives…
They should be forgiven partially. They suffered enough.
you pay with your olife
in which sense Xaralambos Papadopoulos? My sentence supposes that nowadays Greek people don’t have the material possibility to pay the debt, so that Germany banks must leave them in peace
We are next: Bulgaria €235.62
Luxembourg €1,998.59 per Month for 01 January 2017.
This means that 1 Bulgarian working 10 years is equal to 1 year work of 1 Luxembourgian or 10 Bulgarians work = 1 Luxemburgian or 10 Years work in Luxemburg for same person is equal 100 years work in Bulgaria. No fairplay in EU. Bulgarians will never reach or recover, because not only the development and production are not equal, but also in payment there is difference in times, this is wrong policy of EU, to not equalize the salaries of equal workers, it is like Bulgarian not produce with same quality standards but 10 times lower, please everybody knows that Romanians, Bulgarians etc.. go to Germany, Holland and produce the same quality and suddenly they have they pay rised, stop this political treatment like we are 3rd or 4th hand persons just because we live in Bulgaria by history reasons etc.. Despite it should be totally the opposite, to help the unfortunate so Bulgarians, Romanians, Greece should have more salary than fortuned Luxembourgian so they can reach them at some point of the time not in reverse that they will never reach them and EU is not equalizing. https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/articles/statutory-minimum-wages-in-the-eu-2017
A history of the Greek defaults, a cycle that needs to be broken. https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0911/the-history-of-greek-sovereign-debt-defaults.aspx
Interesting… The first Governor of Greece Ioannis Kapodistrias, was murdered under very mysterious conditions. He did not want the new state to get any loans. Right after his death Greece took a new loan. In history books it is written that Mavromihali family members murdered him. If you check the records you will find that was not the case. Still the British Government, withholds the official papers of his murder unopened. Dilos was the centre of an Alliance. It was not rented money, it was money used for building defence. I am not going to read any more in this investopedia article. The people who wrote it need to get their facts straight.
Vassiliki Xifteri Greece defaulted. That is a fact, regardless of how the debt came about.
To fucking right
You keep posting the same question. I am not interested in anybody’s buying out our debt. I am interested in having the right Greek laws to accelerate entrepreneurship and revenues. By the way, Germany should pay us as it did to the rest of European Countries that destroyed during WWII. We are the only ones that did not receive it. I do not want help. I want the right laws either by E.U. policies or by the Hellenic Parliament. Greeks are hard working people unfortunately they always think somebody would save them. Nobody will save us. But we need the right political frame to start anew.
yes but with caveats. Southern Europe has much to offer Northern Europe beyond sun and decent food, it also has a convoluted legal system, tax system and abject mistrust of government, particularly those countries that have been ravaged and colonized by their neighbours in the recent past. Southern Europe could be more pragmatic regarding self employment, sme’s and start ups (c.f ireland) for example by dismantling a labourious tax system that makes it a very costly excercise. Good clear citizens i nformation, on line and towns. Northern Europe could also learn from southern europe, become produces of good quality food, celebrate quality and simplicity, some of the laws are better, certainly protection of welfare systems and notification of intention to become resident is something both the uk and ireland could learn about. Greeks must not be afraid to pay taxes, in a system that they can trust and comprehend, but this awful austerity that is simply costing lives and is inhuman must stop.
Why should anyone pay their debts? Free candy for all!
It’s not like that: debt usually needs to be payed so that there’s no settling of wrong examples. Now the Greeks have suffered really brutally for ten years so they should be exempted now to be able to move on.
As a Greek, I believe it shouldn’t, we have been borrowing money since the creation of the greek State and yet we always fail to either invest the huge amount of money spent on us, or to pay our depts. The real question is: “Should any more loans be given to Greece?”
@Nikolas,
Greece’s loan should be forgiven. Greece is a major investor in Bulgaria, Romania and Albania. It even had investments in FYROM or The Republic of Macedonia. Why does not Greece expands financially to Cyprus?
I would like to vote for approving Greece’s debt to be forgiven. It cannot be paid in at least 300 years.
@Nikolas
Greece’s debt should be forgiven. Greece is a major investor in Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia (FYROM) and Romania.
Greece should also expand to Cyprus!!
ok then should Germany pay its debt first
Do you have an arguement or you just say no?
It’s ridiculous to read that some people believe Greeks are lazy and don’t work and retire early. There may have been exceptions (and some still exists), most people retire at 65 and I believe this will be raised to 67. Yes, there are a lot of public sector workers, and there could be improvements there regarding restructuring of the roles and productivity. Yes, there had been some farmers receiving EU money and buying Porsche Cayennes – now most of them struggle, and even with some (very minor) subsidies to young new farmers, it’s still extremely hard for them. For most of us working here, the employer will evaluate you negatively if you don’t work overtime (10 hours a day without getting overtime paid is regular) – with specific cases in stores or the hotel industry being outrageous. Working 13 hour days at the store (not getting paid extra), working 7 days a week for months with no stop (still getting paid just about the minimum monthly salary), employers doing tricks so that you don’t get your deserved time off (and it’s a myth we have more official holidays here, I worked in the US for several years and we had more there… and we get less vacation than Germans or French per year). So… my fellow European taxpayers, who are so outraged by the lazy Greek people spending your money… just look into it more, and don’t let (maybe equally) corrupt politicians like ours feed you lies.
They payed a heavy price already, with their incomes slashed to half for the last ten years. Their debt can not be brought under control so it should be forgotten to enable them to move on.
They should be exempted now because they payed already a heavy price, their incomes halved for almost the last ten years.
I think debts are killing the whole world and the capitalist economy is showing its true face with debts.. Italy have huge debt too. We can’t allow money to rule lives of hundred million people
The only way leave Eu and start again.
Countries around the world take debts and falsify economic data
The fact is that in the next negotiation with the EU institutions and the IMF, when the present agreement comes to an end, more money will be pushed to the greek government in order to keep servicing the debt and in exchange of more austerity beeing implemented.
They should be exempted at least partially now because they’ve been already served a proper lesson on the past years.
Not with this government, and only if the taxes would go down and a smaller public emploies
if you check the numbers are in average. their productivity is the issue
Public sector produces only problems
FOR SURE …SINCE THE LOAN OF GERMAN CRIMINAL NAZI PIGS ARE ELIMINATED …HOW MUCH MORE OF GR WHICH EU TO SPEAK AND COMMUNICATE ….
Lets remember the forced loans Germany imposed on Greece during the second world war which never had been paid back. Lets remember the gold they stole from the Greece Central Bank. Lets remember Germany never paid any compensation. With this Historical background Germany should be ashamed of their more recent attitudes.
NOOOOO! They must simply grow up and learn how to behave in a responsible way as we are now in the 21st century…Like in Iltaly, Spain and Portugal the influence of the CHURCH has to be curtailed as it is still strong and negative!
Ó Manuela, isto é troll?
Spain? Were 25% of children starve?
Portugal, if not for interests, has 5800 million euros surplus. With interests, it hasn’t enough cash to invest in preparation for climate change that is hitting now.
DEUS VULT
Truth sometimes hurts, but it liberates!!!
No! we messed up and we must find the way to come back alone. Germans and the other eu nations just need to help us to find the way and they do it very well! ️️
Are you joking?
Pedro Pinheiro Augusto no. This is the truth about Greece. We must pay our debt
No! we messed up and we must find the way to come back alone. Germans and the other eu nations just need to help us to find the way and they do it very well! ️️
No! we messed up and we must find the way to come back alone. Germans and the other eu nations just need to help us to find the way and they do it very well! ️️
No! we messed up and we must find the way to come back alone. Germans and the other eu nations just need to help us to find the way and they do it very well! ️️
If you forget debt people will lost faith on money that is backup by debt
No. This was in WWII.
53 was coming out of war. Greece had way to many forgivenesses in the 70-80s… countries like Greece destabilized Europe by going overboard with debt.
I have an argument, but I don’t need to explain myself for anyone. There is a question, and that is my answer. Farewell
the year of Jubilee is this year or next, so yes
If you do.. who is next ?
How about my country?
German and Slovakia will pay it. :-D
🤘
http://oxstones.com/germany-owes-romania-18-8-billion-euro-authorities-do-nothing-to-recover-the-debt/
totally different situation! In London in 53 was treatet Germany and its after war status , end of the occupation and its new souvereignty as Federal Republik of Germany and the question if the new democracy was the legal succsessor of the Third Reich. Moreover it was the question of reparations as after WW1, one of the main reasons for Hitler´s takeover…..
According to your logic every time that a new law established (or an old one change) then the whole country is different state entity
not MY LOGIC but international jurisdiction decided that in the case of Germany it was so,moreover to the fact that we had now 2 German states, the second was the German Democratic Republic!!
Yes, they need help.
Eva Ozebek preberi
Sure, why not?
It should if Eu was a land of justice and equality, since it’s not they won’t give a damn
Yes! The creditors have already earned enough!
I want the Europe of people and the Europe of solidarity against the Europe of debts and austerity…so of course I agree with that
No!!! Germany was after WWII. Greece just want to use EU citicens money!
False!
Where are you informed ?We don’t USE the EU money ! We BORROW the money with interest rate! They dont just give money like that you know! You are a genius you know that!
Greek debt orchistrated decades ago as key financial colonization tool. Thus it has to be handled as a mega financial crime against generations of hardworking Greek citizens and their charismatic country. The rest is bull.
Totally yes! Because it’s constructed and invalid.
Yes w€ can!
Yes definitely!
Lets remember Germany in 2000, where Greece in her vote did not let them in bankruptcy!!!
This is not even the point. The point is that the current Neoliberal policy of austerity for years, rose the unemployment rate, demolished the middle class by creating many more poor families and the debt per GBT grow to 180%. Troika is responsible for this disaster and they acting like it was nothing. So, if the EU wants to help itself and Greece, there must be a huge debt haircut, like 70%, which is hard to happen as they transferred the debt from European banks to the citizens of EU. My opinion is that all the EU States should see a generous haircut for each State’s debt and then a new Common EU Policy for Economy!
Greece and Portugal
Even better have Germany pay Greece’s debt, without any interest whatsoever, for all the destruction they caused in WWI AND WWII.
Yes, they should be treated as Germany, where Europe forgive his debt 4 times during the last century, not only in 1953. Europe was very indulgent with Germans after provoque two world wars…
They should borrow the money without any interest if they want an equal Europe, the problem is that we helped them and now they are getting reacher and powerful with our money, controlling the financial market in Europe. Good Policy ;)
http://i2.dir-i.net/CMS/2015/03/17/o/3a_om6op3.jpg
😎😊👉
If Germany was forced to pay reparations, and damages, return the stolen antiquities and pay tax on their Greek interests in the airports and other investments… Greece would be rich and Germany in debt. Think about it and do the accounting. YOU DO NOT DARE. In fact Greek Representative in Brussels, Notis Marias was cut off and they refused to hear him on the issue of reparations… and broke their own rules, writing out of the issues to be voted on. European Commission are criminals.
Yes! Of course.
No, both should be paid.
Yes it should. Greece is a Major investor in Bulgaria, Romania, Albania and Macedonia.
No. Every debt should be paid.