Language is always going to be a contentious issue, bound as it is to questions of culture and identity. Whilst there are 24 official languages in the EU, studies suggest that almost 40% of Europeans speak English as a foreign language (not counting the 13% that speak it as a mother tongue). That’s almost four times as many foreign language speakers as either of the next most popular languages in Europe (French and German). And the English language is only growing increasingly more dominant, not just in Europe but around the world.
Curious about the status of English compared to other languages in Europe? We’ve put together some language statistics in the infographic below (click for a bigger image):
One of our Greek readers, Christos, sent us in a comment arguing that – whether people like it or not – English is the “emerging language of Europe”. He argued that English should be made the official language of the EU, so that everybody learns it next to their native tongue. Christos believes that this approach would help boost Europe’s economy and sense of unity, because it would make it easier for workers to travel and work anywhere in the Union:
For example, if I as a Greek want to move to Hungary and I do not speak Hungarian, I could move there by just speaking English and get a job anywhere…
Hungary may not have been the best example, as that is the EU country where the greatest number of people (65%) admit to not speaking any foreign languages at all. However, his general point remains.
We recently put Christos’ suggestion to Androulla Vassiliou, the former EU Commissioner for Multilingualism. How would she respond?
Christos wasn’t alone in his suggestion. We also had a comment sent in from Pedro, who argued that we should be “honest” and admit that “the English language will dominate the world in the years to come, if it doesn’t already.” He argued that it should be mandatory for all students in the European Union to learn English as a foreign language at school.
We put this comment to Patricia Ryan, a language teacher at Zayed University in Dubai who has given a TED talk looking at whether the world’s focus on English might be preventing the spread of great ideas in other languages. How would she respond?
Should learning English as a foreign language be mandatory for all students in the European Union? Would having English as the official “common language of Europe” give a boost to the EU’s economy and sense of unity? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.
IMAGE CREDITS: CC / Flickr – César Viteri Ramirez
3,338 comments Post a commentcomment
No.
Yes.
Because it is. Becaus everybody will comment here in English if they want to be understood by all Europe tribes and World tribes.
This is the point: if I speak here Serbo-Croatian language I am limited to 20 mil people but with English I’m sure more than billion can read my thoughts.
Europe is United today, if they want to remain so, have common foreign policy and speak to people wholive in Europe they have to use language mayority can understand… This is not easy to achieve and this is why I also believe there is no harm for countries to be independat and make EU history because having global capitalism and nice behavior doesnt come from EU policiticans and centralised gouverment and today it is really not neccery.
Nadam se da me razumiješ, iako sam malo pogrešio u pisanju, ipak ne koristim Engleski toliko često. Pozdrav!
Your billion must be the US billion of 1000 million not a British billion of 1 million million. You are certainly overestimating the Nº of Anglophones or those who speak English proficiently. Linguistic diversity is enshrined in EU law. I realise your language is spoken by few people but you must remember that for Franco-, Luso-and Hispanophones there are 100s of millions of speakers.
*writes the reply in English* :P
Yes, it should be the official language, because it has the easiest grammar of the 3 popular languages.
As much as I like German as my mothertongue, the grammar is horrible. And when it comes to French it takes way too long to say what you mean.
Yes, I do support English to be chosen as the official language of Europe. English is widely spoken all over the world. Even a lot of arriving refugees make themselves understood by speaking English. A huge number of Chinese traders use English as a tool for selling their goods.
Of course not. Only people who have never thinked of current consequences and rich people with English fluency would like this to happen. My point is explained here, the last lecture: The Universal language (university): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6oIFrNfhY5LvdP9barCFBA1iSIWbfKmf
You are kind of weird, guys, you like to be second level citizens compared to English natives who are now having a great privilege (in a democracy era! Omg…). You’d sound stupid if had to talk about science in English next to a native in a debate. Latin, French, English, Chinese and finally we all will have the culture neutral and way easier Esperanto that is becoming unstoppable as a fairer bridge language https://www.duolingo.com/course/eo/en/Learn-Esperanto-Online
Pourquoi donc une nouvelle bataille pour une langue supra nationale en Europe,
puisqu’elle existe déjà !
En effet in suffit de prendre en main le livre de Jean-Jacques RENOLLIET, intitulé : L’UNESCO oubliée, sous titré La Société des Nations et la coopération intellectuelle ( 1919-1946 ) aux presses de la Sorbonne.
Dans ce livre vous découvrirez les démarches de nombreux intellectuels associés, parmi lesquels nous trouvons Marie Curie, Albert Einstein, les plus connus pour nous mais combien d’autres faisant partie de l’Institut International de Coopération Intellectuelle ( IICI )
Leur démarche à la Société des Nations, pour demander à cet organisme international, de leur trouver parmi trois langages quel serait le plus facile et utile à permettre aux hommes de bonne volonté de l’utiliser autour d’une table avant de se jeter dans d’effroyable conflits tel que 1914-18.
Hélas le BONSENS ne s’achète pas sur les marchés !
A vous de juger
Why have a new battle for a supra-national language in Europe,
since it already exists!
In fact it is enough to take look at Jean-Jacques RENOLLIET’s book, entitled: UNESCO forgotten, The League of Nations and intellectual cooperation (1919-1946) at Sorbonne.
In this book you will discover the approaches of many intellectual associates, among which we find Marie Curie, Albert Einstein, the most known for us but how many others are part of the International Institute of Intellectual Cooperation (IICI)
Their approach to the League of Nations was to ask it to find them among three languages which would be the easiest and useful to allow men of good will to use it around a table before jumping frightful conflicts such as WWI.
Alas COMMON SENSE cannot be bought on the markets!
Your turn to judge
No. Every country as well as every culture (of which there are many in EU) have the right to have their own language as an official language of the EU. Having the same international language within the EU is a different story.
Agreed; that is a very different story. An international language would be very useful as an auxiliary medium which would facilitate understanding without “insulting” those who refuse to submit to the chutzpah of Anglophile Nazis.
I burst with laughter when people on this forum push Esperanto as a unifying language for Europe. To all those who surgest Esperanto over English, thanks for the laughs.
eo: Fakte mi volas reagi al Chris, kiu ŝatas ridegi. Jen kialo por ridegi:
Fama parolanto de la angla petis legi la jenan “GHOTI”.
Ĉu Chris konas tiun ŝercon? Ĉu li ridaĉas?
nl: Ik wil eigenlijk reageren op Chris, die zo graag schaterlacht. Hier een reden om te schaterlachen:
Een bekende Engelstalige vroed het volgende te lezen (in het Engels): “GHOTI”.
Kent Chris die grap? Lacht hij nu groen?
Yes because I’m English and I cant be bothered to learn any other language, it is far simpler if all you foreigners learn English.
Then I wont have to point at things and talk loudly and slowly for you to understand what I want you to do.
No. Iedere taal is belangrijk en heeft zijn eigen denkpatronen. Lees George Steiner: Eros&Idioom. Bovendien is dit een enorme culturele verarming. Engels vertaalt slechts 3% uit andere talen.
I do not really know where do you get your statistics. English speakers are less interested in being translated to other languages than the rest of the people is interested in being translated into English.
I agree with Rick Hoppmann and i want to repeat what he said ” English is the easiest language that i ever seen in my life, so learn English”. Anyways i agree that English to be an official language of the EU.
Having your own language as an official language doesn’t mean that you can’t add English as a second official language in all countries.
NO
Esperanto was an unattainable PIPE Dream, which could not fit into any language group because of the different alphabets and their various sounds. So, it was really a miserable attempt to create an international language that no one ever could use!
Kenneth Tellis, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Esperanto is easy and natural for everyone whether their native language is inflectional, agglutinative, analytic or polysynthetic. As you can see from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzDS2WyemBI, people certainly do use it; in fact some of the people portrayed in the video would never have been born if “no one could ever use” Esperanto since their parents would never have met if not for la bona lingvo!
Well explained–you could have used Nyet !
no
Fortunately I was born in Australia and my family will not HAVE to learn another language. But I went to China for a year and conversed in Esperanto to ordinary people in Esperanto clubs and homes in 26 cities without resorting to English. Away from the tourist areas, where I stayed, English was not available. Shouldn’t a world language (or a European common language) be for everyone and not just those with a gift in language? . You forget those who don’t have the time, schools or even the ability to learn English. This post is in English and you can see the bias.
the comment below must be fake. No one speaks Esperanto in China.
@roger springer the point you have forgotten is that English is spreading like wild fire. Some schools might not have the ability to teach it but the ones who do have the ability have been teaching it and still are. In my school we can only learn Spanish, they have gotten rid of French. Even that shows the most popular languages in the world are being dominated by English. No matter if you want it to happen or not, eventually more than half of the world will be able to speak English if not already. The reason why it’s so important is to communicate and keep the world steady financially.
Yes because I’m English and I cant be bothered to learn any other language, it is far simpler if all you foreigners learn English.
Then I wont have to point at things and talk loudly and slowly for you to understand what I want you to do.
It already is in fact.
Yes, more… or LESS; but, how did it occured? English in Europe is a “fait accompli” (accomplished fact) because of the will of Churchill and his US friends (allies). Few people know about the “basic english” project (before the 2ww) or about the conference in London (1961). You can know more there:
http://www.linguistic-rights.org/robert-phillipson/
Do we want an “european Europe”? Or an english-american one? That’s the point!
With esperanto, we could keep english as a communication language during a transition time, BUT at the end (15, 20,25 years), more people would become able to communicate, and really FEEL “european”.
To H.Fei:
Do yout think that http://esperanto.cri.cn/ is a fake?
Do you think that the chinese Esperantists, who visited us, where fantoms?
Ĉu vi opinias, ke http://esperanto.cri.cn/ estas falsaĵo?
Ĉu vi opinias, ke la ĉinaj Esperantistoj vizitintaj nin, estis fantomoj?
Hello Christiane, please, read again the original question:
“SHOULD English be THE ONLY official language of the EU?”
I ignore why (that would be another debate), but you might have read/replied to:
“IS English THE ONLY official language of the EU?”
So real current contrasted facts are:
1) It IS NOT the ONLY official language of the EU: the EU has 24 official languages, and currently Senior MEP said “English will not be an official EU language after Brexit” (I doubt it, I think Malta will try to change from Maltese to English or something is going to be made to let English in… but I can’t confirm the future, just guess or hope)
2) Till now (maybe it is changing after Brexit, who knows) it is THE MAIN (not the only!) language of the (only de jure “equally fair”) multilingual EU, next to French and then German (with a lesser use, but much wider than Maltese, Spanish, etc.)
3) The fact that is it the main language of the EU isn’t an argument per se to make it THE ONLY language of the EU. “A fact is not good just because it is a fact.” “with that kind of reasoning, there would still be a lot of slaves, and there would be no woman with political responsibilities.” With that reasoning, you wouldn’t have now the right to speak up .
“How could there be progress if you equate “fact” with “final”, “unimprovable” ? If another means is better to reach the same goal, why not take up the better option? Esperanto is not above other languages, but, among people with different language backgrounds, it is fairer than English (or do you say “more fair”?). With Esperanto everybody has to make some effort to reach the common ground, and there everybody can communicate on an equal footing with everybody else.”
Leo De Cooman July 6th, 2015
“To H.Fei:
Do yout think that http://esperanto.cri.cn/ is a fake?
Do you think that the chinese Esperantists, who visited us, where fantoms?”
No, they’re not related. But the main point is that Esperanto works. The reason it’s been in decline since the end of the Cold War is political. We’ve had so many trolls upsetting things in the Esperanto movement that this has to be coming ultimately from the English language lobby. I was verbally set upon by the gang, led by a British Council guy, at the AGM of Esperanto Association of Britain in 2006, after I had carried out a detailed research project on the reasons for the decline in membership. It began suddenly in 1992, and followed a straight line for a decade. The treasurer was insisting that the capital was being used up, and no-one questioned her. When I discovered – subject to confirmation – that the capital had been rising dramatically and at an accelerating rate for that period, I reported that quietly and in confidence to the President. He was the guy who led the gang against me. So if they’re doing that with Esperanto, what are they doing in the Labour Party to undermine Jeremy Corbyn, and what are they doing in other membership associations that they don’t like? When people understand this, the time for a revival of Esperanto will be upon us. Esperanto works.
Isn’t it?
NO
Yes because I’m English and I cant be bothered to learn any other language, it is far simpler if all you foreigners learn English.
Then I wont have to point at things and talk loudly and slowly for you to understand what I want you to do.
Damo. Hopefully you are being sarcastic, otherwise you will wind up being the butt end of the joke.
What do you think that they do when you travel and cannot understand them. Do you actually think that they regret not having learned English so they can help you.
Not very smart, your statement that is, and it portraits you as not very kind nor courteous.
Colas, sarcasm is best served in English! :-)
Official as in “used in EU administration and institutions”? Yes. Otherwise – no.
That would be good for most of the British, as they usually do not speak any foreign language. The current rule of having all the EU languages as official languages and English, French and German as operational languages in the European Commission helps people being a bit less narrow-minded, as the world is big and there is more than English.
Grazie, Daniele.
Ha ragione.
E, l’esperanto, ne ha sentito parlare? Se io non l’avessi imparato, non avrei probabilmente imparato dopo il tedesco a un po’ pi polacco.
Se informi… :-)
Each European is, at least, by law, bilingual, a common language: English or Esperanto language and the first present effective language of their singular homeland or city / province / canton, which often does not coincide with that of the current nation.
“The question which must be resolved first failing which progress is but mere appearance, is definitive abolition of division of Europe into national, sovereign States.” http://www.losio.com/rue/index.html#as
The knowledge and usage of a common language is a very necessary an useful thing, but making English the only official language is a bad idea, IMHO.
YES!!!
Yes
How about Latin
That would be a good idea. Yes, it is incredibly difficult to learn but most of us learnt english not in school but rather watching tv shows and playing games. Why not do that also with Latin? Like e.g. european movies in latin. Besides Latin was the cientific and religious language used in Europe up until the XIX century, which would give the common european access to centuries of history. Imagine reading Cicero, or Newton works or the battles of Julius Caesar in the language it was written. How great would that be? :D
Latin is difficult, esperanto is powerfull, modern, equitable, and easy to learn
@ Pedro: Latin is elitist, so unrealistic. The question is: Do we want a language to be used and understood by every European? Do we want to improve the learning of several languages? If “yes”, we have to make it easy and successfull at the beginning.
In so many cases, when students have learnt english during thousand of hours, with a relative poor result, a part of them have no courage (or time left) to learn more languages. English sometimes acts like a language’s vampire. It would be the same with latin.
Esperanto is a language friendly to other languages. Inform yourself, please.
We could consider Interlingua as the successor of the international Latin of the Middle Ages. Lumine is light, lumière, luz, but illumination, luminario is everywhere. Digito is finger, doigt, dedo, but digital is everywhere. Lumine and digito are Interlingua words from classical and medieval Latins. A modern Latin for Europe? Ita ad Interlingua!
I see that Boris Johnson, the London Mayor,
wants Latin to be taught in all London schools.
However I would prefer Esperanto on the basis
that it has great propaedeutic values.
The only reason people say No is because it represents big change. It needs to be gradually introduced.
It already is introduced in school. But look at the money spent: it basically fails…
how about german ? why are you shy?
@Τεπενδρής Πίπης Why not? BUT german is not very easy to learn. I know what I say, I can speak more than 5 languages. I’m French 63 years old. At school, I learnt english and italian (I was not given choice). After that, I learnt by myself a bit of Spanish, and ESPERANTO. And esperanto led me to learn german (I am learning it) and a bit of polish. I am a REAL European, not a US-British European!
@Couturier Dominique
So, basically you know a few Romance languages and 2 Germanic languages (although your English is not too good TBH).
Spanish and English are WORLD languages – the rest are less significant.
PS: Esperanto is for Daleks. :)
Why not Esperanto?
@Voteaza Basarabie Democratia
It is an artificial language – it lacks a certain degree of warmness, has no pedigree and very little culture.
Yes, Esperanto
@Tarquin Farquhar: you know NOTHING about esperanto, I guess.
I do speak it. With only 6 months of learning, I speak it better than english. Esperanto protects diversity, english does not.
@Couturier Dominique
YOU may well be better at Esperanto than English:
Your first sentence is CLEARLY LOGICALLY INCORRECT.
Esperanto is too Latin-centric for it to ‘protect diversity’ – whatever that means?!
STICK to Esperanto!
@Tarquin Farquhar
It would still be better than english which is very english-centric.
Esperanto is not a national language and for this very reason protect more the diversity of europe than the english langague which favors the english-speaking nations like UK and USA.
@Ŝarl Bodler
Esperanto is NOT as diverse as English – Esperanto is too Romance language-based to be considered diverse.
English is based on MANY diverse and multicultural languages:
It is the most acquisitive of all languages no matter the source – unlike French which seeks to shoe-horn new words into the existing French language corpus.
It is the most dynamic of all languages – look at how many new words from all over the world are added annually and compare same with any Romance language or indeed many other languages for that matter.
It more easily ‘morphs’ itself to accommodate new media like SMS unlike any other language.
It is bigger than any other EU language.
Its diversity and specificity means that it is often superior at waxing lyrical or indeed detailing formal representations and articulations [like legal or scientific documents] unlike many other languages.
Esperanto is a sterile, lifeless and artificial language that should be consigned to the
lavatorylaboratory.After POLITICAL UNION comes LANGUAGE UNION – and English will be the winner; read it, get used to it, get over it.
How can you be that arrogant ? Do you know anything about Esperanto ? It is a beautiful language which does not sound lifeless or artificial.
English is only the third language of EU after French or German. Beside, how the fact that English is more spoken around the world is pertinent ? Using this kind of argument, we would have chosen dollars instead of euro. The goal of the EU construction is to build an INDEPENDENT community and not to be the vassal of the USA.
If English is used, it has nothing to do with its so-called qualities. It is just because the US is the most powerful country and because UK had huge colonies.
And to be honest, we have to make a distinction between globish (an awful language with few expressiveness) and English, that very few non-native people are able to speak.
For this reason, Esperanto being neutral and way more easy and expressive that globish, is a far better choice for Europe.
@Ŝarl Bodler
Don’t get emotional, get factual.
Esperanto is NOT a ‘neutral’ language. You repeatedly refuse to acknowledge the fundamental bias toward Romance languages embodied within the composition of Esperanto – a tad arrogant methinks.
In your world [a biased, prejudiced and partisan one] English maybe the 3rd language of the EU [LOL!] BUT it is the MOST widely spoken language in the EU, whilst German is the most widely spoken native language in the EU.
PLEASE try to be objective when debating as you merely reinforce a certain negative stereotype associated with Romance-centric Esperanto zealots.
I am factual ! My point is that English is not neutral because it is already the language of some nations. This is a fact. My point is that UK and USA are favored by the use of English. This is also a fact. My point is that using Esperanto, a simple language that anyone can easily learn, is more neutral than English. Still a fact.
In that sense, Esperanto is way more neutral than English and that is what is important (but if you want I can admit that it is not 100% neutral, but I thought it was obvious). The lack of neutrality is not caused by the vocabulary, but by the fact that some citizen, because of their birth, are fluent when the others had to make huge effort to speak a poor globish. With Esperanto everyone has to make a small effort (compared to the one needed for English). This is fairness.
> In your world [a biased, prejudiced and partisan one] English maybe the 3rd language of the EU [LOL!]
Not, once again, that is just a fact. Moreover, the fact that just a minority of EU citizen are able to reach a good level English is also a fact. We can not just forget this majority of citizen. Do we ? EU is far from being a English speaking continent despite the effort to teach everyone English for years and that is the reality.
I don’t believe in utopia and that is the reason why I don’t believe that everyone in Europe can be fluent in English ; that is also the reason why I believe in Esperanto, which of course is not perfect, but which is a pragmatic solution. Esperanto is way more easy to learn than English for everyone (but the English native).
@Ŝarl Bodler
I’m not too sure that your command of English extends to the ability to discern between the polar opposite words ‘fictional’ and ‘factual’ OR are you saying ‘porkies’ to support your ill-founded assertion?
On this very page I have cited credible EU data in support of my assertion about the dominance of English in the EU.
Please kindly, logically, rationally, calmly put-up or shut-up!
Your over-emotional and poorly constructed support of your Dalek/artificial-language is more ‘Despairanto’ than risible Esperanto.
@Tarquin Farquhar
About dominance of English. I am saying two things that you don’t want to understand. First, the use of English is unfair because it favored UK and USA over the rest of Europe. Second, very few people in Europe are fluent.
That English is the most learned foreign language don’t change the two previous facts. In the paper you reference to, 38% European (non english native) pretends to be able to hold a conversation in English. But this 38% are not fluent (at least not all of them). How many speak very good ? Just to give you number (from the same paper). Only 25% pretends to be able to follow to be able to follow news on TV. And this is just about pretending. When it comes to languages, people often overestimate them self. How many of them are able to discuss complex political topic with a native speaker ? Even If you add UK and Irish citizen, you won’t have a majority. For a lot of people in Europe, English is a very difficult language to learn. It is that stupid to even consider a simpler solution ?
I am proposing a solution far more easy to learn, way more fair. Neither English nor Esperanto are perfect, and there are very good reasons to use Esperanto (simplicity, fairness, cost, independence, etc).
Refusing a solution before even considering it, that is not what I call a rational point of view.
Asking me to shut up when my previous message was factual and respectful, this is not what I call being calm or kind.
I know you believe that English will win ; it is not a reason to be disrespectful with people that would prefer an other solution.
@Ŝarl Bodler
I am disrespectful to people who wilfully propagate the myth that Latin-based Esperanto is NOT a biased language when in fact it is.
I could understand your argument if you countered English with Spanish or Chinese but NO you prefer the dulcet tones of a language with less kudos than Klingon.
Why force >99% of EU citizens to learn
KlingonEsperanto when only 49% [and declining] would need to learn English for there to be a common EU Language viz. English.http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_en.pdf
>I am disrespectful to people who wilfully propagate the myth that Latin-based Esperanto is NOT a biased language when in fact it is.
It is a little biased of course, but Esperanto is already created from a mix from Latin and Germanic (German and English) roots. And because there is already a lot of Latin roots in German and English, it is very easy for an English (or a German) to understand Esperanto.
But the bias coming from the vocabulary is nothings compare to the bias advantaging the native people. It is not perfect, but it is still way more fair than English. A French guy is not advantages by the use of Esperanto as much as the UK citizen is by the use of English. And for everyone else it is easier to learn.
> I could understand your argument if you countered English with Spanish or Chinese but NO you prefer the dulcet tones of a language with less kudos than Klingon.
Esperanto is nothing like Klingon. Language are not somethings magical that gods give us : it is just a tool (a wonderful one) created by the human society to communicate. The fact that Esperanto was initiated by one man (since then, it evolve like any other language) does not mean that Esperanto is not capable to express feelings, poetry, joke, or what so ever. Languages are not magical ! Their is no reason why human can not created some new one (it is not easy of course, but it is possible). Esperanto is the living proof of it. Now explain why one can not express in Esperanto what can be expressed in natural language ? Give me a concrete example, I am curious.
> Why force >99% of EU citizens to learn Klingon Esperanto when only 49% [and declining] would need to learn English for there to be a common EU Language viz. English.
First because the prize is not the same. Why asking >49 paying 100€ when >99% could pay 10€ ? And as the future generation does not speak any language yet, we need as well choose the simplest one.
Beside, when you already speak English, Esperanto is very easy to learn.
Second, because, the current state is not the only pertinent point when we are looking for a long term solution. As it is very easy to catch up Esperanto when you speak English, we can hope that the transition will not exceed 10 years. It is not stupid to pay more for a more democratic solution.
@Ŝarl Bodler
So after several posts you finally CONFIRMED my assertion [that you repeatedly and disingenuously contested] that Esperanto is biased.
Furthermore, your failure to comprehend basic mathematics is a tad alarming – you deem it better to ‘inconvenience’ the 99% by coercing them to learn English rather than ‘inconvenience’ the 49% to do same – a wee bit totalitarian methinks.
As regards the expressibility of any language – Klingon is just as expressive as Esperanto. LOL!
Finally, ?4U, 1DR what is the Esperanto ‘textese’ equivalent of “2 B or not 2B”?
@TEOTD English has evolved to be THE most dynamic, acquisitive and versatile language – the artificial and culture-less language called Esperanto has little more merit than Klingon or Ido.
Finally, FAR TOO many criticisms have been levied at Esperanto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Esperanto#Other_constructed_languages
for it to be considered seriously.
;)
@Tarquin Farquhar
> So after several posts you finally CONFIRMED my assertion [that you repeatedly and disingenuously contested] that Esperanto is biased.
Did you read what I wrote ? I quote myself
> It would still be better than english
Better does not mean perfect.
> In that sense, Esperanto is way more neutral than English and that is what is important (but if you want I can admit that it is not 100% neutral, but I thought it was obvious).
My point since the beginning was never that Esperanto is perfect, but that it is way more neutral or fair than English.
> Furthermore, your failure to comprehend basic mathematics is a tad alarming – you deem it better to ‘inconvenience’ the 99% by coercing them to learn English rather than ‘inconvenience’ the 49% to do same – a wee bit totalitarian methinks.
No my point was that it is more fair to ask a lot of people to do a small effort (99% learning Esperanto) than asking to less people to make a huge effort (49% learning English). And mathematically, it is coherent.
> Finally, ?4U, 1DR what is the Esperanto ‘textese’ equivalent of “2 B or not 2B”?
First, “1DR” is ugly and I had to search it to understand what is mean…
Seriously, you think that English has a magical properties which make it possible to text with ? “2B aŭ ne 2B” means in Esperanto “Doubt or no doubt” because 2B is pronounced “Dubo”. So you see, you can use this king of writing with Esperanto and with almost all language (invented or not). Natural language are just like Esperanto with respect to this possibility. And seriously, you would have refused Esperanto because you can not text with it ? It is the best you can do ?
> Finally, FAR TOO many criticisms have been levied at Esperanto:
Just like English, and yet is does not bother you. And a lot of this criticisms can be use against English (lack of neutrality, difficulty, not gender-neutral, counteracts linguistic diversity). And a lot of this other point are subjective.
It is clear that you don’t know anything about Esperanto beside what you heard about it.
@Ŝarl Bodler
1..You have already admitted that Esperanto is biased and thus based on your own logic it should be discounted [as you have discounted English] from being considered the official language of the EU.
2…Your totalitarian zealous bias for
KlingonEsperanto is nigh-on comedic – pray continue kind knave.3…Esperanto is too small a language to qualify it as the sole EU official language.
4…Esperanto ‘genderises’ inanimate objects [LOL] and thus is too silly to qualify as the sole official EU language.
5…Esperanto has very little cultural or historical attribution and thus should not qualify as the sole official EU language.
6…Esperanto lacks the dynamism of English when it comes to ‘textese’ and other tech/advanced spheres of influence and thus should not qualify as the sole official EU language.
There are 250 million English speakers in the EU and a few thousand Esperanto speakers [TOPS] in the EU and you want the tail to wag the dog – dream on!
IMHO English may well become the only official EU language and Esperanto will be consigned to the history [or indeed comic] books.
@Tarquin Farquhar
1. Absolutely 100% neutral solution does not exist. Perfection is not from this world. But Esperanto is the best solution we have and is far superior to English, when it comes to fairness and neutrality. Being rational does not mean being binary.
2. You assume that I am a fanatic from the sect Esperanto. Can it not be possible that I chose Esperanto, rationally after a lot of thinking. Once again we can disagree with respect, without saying that the other one is a fool blinded by his ideology.
3. Size does not matter. Euro was inexistent before introducing it, and yet, it works. What really matter is the result at long term (10 years from now).
4. “Esperanto ‘genderises’ inanimate objects” of course it don’t. Stop making up stuff against Esperanto. Esperanto use the very same system than English “li,ŝi,ĝi” instead of “he,she,it”. On the other hand, French genderises inanimate object and it wasn’t a problem (and it still isn’t). So to make it short, this point is both pointless and invented. How can you criticize something you know nothing about ? It feel like ideology more than rationality.
5. This is not a problem. Europe already has a culture, far more rich than the English and American one. I prefer a solution like Esperanto with no culture rather than trying to replace Europe culture by the english one. Why the hell when I speak with a Italian guy should I use a language tainted with English Culture ?
A quote that explain in few word the differrence between English and Esperanto : Prof. Humphrey Tonkin of the University of Hartford, said that Esperanto is “culturally neutral by design, as it was intended to be a facilitator between cultures, not to be the carrier of any one national culture”.
6. False. Esperanto is a very dynamic language. In fact it is one of the most beautiful part of Esperanto : the capability of creating new word from already existing roots, the freedom when it comes to syntax,… There is a lot to say against Esperanto, but this is not a valid point. You are attacking Esperanto on the very point it do better than English.
Seriously you think that English imposed himself because of it’s linguistic properties ? Look again history, the English Empire and the domination of USA since the end of ww2.
> Dream one
Seriously why the aggressiveness ?
Why is my last comment (from the 24th) not published yet ?
@Ŝarl Bodler
Perhaps your last comment was missing because it was TOO emotional to be acceptable?
You [incorrectly] complain about my purported aggressiveness and yet your first riposte to me was rather rude – reap what you sow dear chap, reap what you sow.
1…Your response is illogical.
2…Your postings confirm your fanatical Esperanto leanings – logic [judging by your previous posts] is OFTEN alien to you.
3…The Euro does work – BADLY! LOL!
4…I’ll let you correct the ESPERANTO WIKIPEDIA portal then regarding this issue. LOL!
5…Your racism knows no bounds – England happens to be in Europe – doh!
6…Your comment is contradictory.
ALL in all, you seem hyper-fanatical regarding your incorrect, risible and over-zealous support of the POLITICAL LANGUAGE called Esperanto – you should have learnt Klingon rather than Esperanto – doh!!
@Tarquin Farquhar
I find it fascinating that as soon as you hear the word “Esperanto”, you lose all rationality. Your arguments boil down to LOL, RANDOMLY CAPITALISED WORDS, comparisons with Klingon, a complete refusal to check facts (as proven by your repeated claims that Esperanto is cold or inexpressive) and even outright lies (no, Esperanto doesn’t give genders to inanimate objects). I really wonder where this hostility comes from.
@M.D.
It appears the rationale for my usage of CAPITALS is lost on you just like the sexist/genderisation problem associated with Esperanto appears to be lost on you.
FTR lookup the word ‘RIISMO’ for proof about the terrible sexist/genderisation problems [as is common with most Romance languages if not all] associated with Esperanto.
Why not Esperanto?
Just practical reasons. There are more tan nine hundred million people who speak Chinese, big advantage, Disadvantage, extremely hard to learn. Presently useful only inside China o to deal with China.
Spanish, is the language of more than twenty countries with over 400 billion of speakers and a large history in the World arena but most of those countries are heavily dependent on English for political and economic reasons, although they are mostly averse of the idea of English as their language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_Spanish_is_an_official_language
English on the other hand is spoken in almost every country in the World by at least some of its citizens and it is the oficial language of more than sixty countriesand over twenty non severiegn states. By some estimates there are more than 500 million people who already speak English (by others it is closer to nine hundred).
A great deal of the World international commerce is transacted in English as well as scientific and social activities.
Can Esperanto beat that? How many books, scientific papers or simply fashion ads are in Esperanto? How do you say that McDonald´s are bad for you in Esperanto? Or that Spanish Serrano ham and Manchego cheese are fantastic with french bread and Chilean wine?
“No my point was that it is more fair to ask a lot of people to do a small effort (99% learning Esperanto) than asking to less people to make a huge effort (49% learning English). And mathematically, it is coherent”
Not really, no. I don’t know were learned Math but anyhow you are not using the correct numbers. Not only the 99% will have to be inconvenience into learning a language that is more dead that Latin (I think there are still more priests that speak Latin than speakers of Esperanto) they will be asked to through away everything they already accomplished and have.
Also, and it would be funny if it weren’t so biased, you contradict yourself constantly. How can you speak of linguistic diversity and in the same sentence postulate we all should adopt Esperanto. It does not matter which language become the World language, once we have one it will be to the detriment of all other languages and Cultures. It is unavoidable in the long run. The longer we have one language the less we will need the others, otherwise what will be the reason to adopt one in the first place. But additionally, those of you who advocate fairness and equality and justice should be the first to understand that the World will be a fair, egalitarian (definition: of, relating to, or upholding the doctrine of the equality of mankind and the desirability of political, social, and economic equality) and just only when all the citizens of the World have the same rights and obligations. And for that we will have to get rid of all the differences, including Cultural and linguistic differences, not only social, political and economic.
The truth of the matter is that adopting Esperanto will affect detrimentally all other languages and Cultures the same as adopting English or any other language, the only difference is that it doesn’t provide any additional benefits. Not economic, nor social, nor cultural, nor political and of course not linguistic. At least not linguistic diversity. And if you really want to understand what we have been talking about, ask your accountant! He can do the Math for you, seeing that you appear to be Math challenged.
And Bodler, “Beside, when you already speak English, Esperanto is very easy to learn”. Really? When you already speak English you don’t worry about Esperanto, that is if you know of its existence. It means that you can work, save and when you go on vacation, as many European appear to enjoy, you can read the tourist signs in other countries. Try that with Esperanto.
Alejandro… Stop commenting please… You are complaining about Esperanto with such a lack of data and knowledge. We all better stop answering you… You are just trolling around now, you’ve made up your mind long ago and it’s locked up to any argumentation. Keep English. I’ll keep English, Esperanto (French, Spanish, Chinese and German)
Alejandro writes “How can you speak of linguistic diversity and in the same sentence postulate we all should adopt Esperanto”. A good point and worth addressing. Esperanto speakers often talk of the importance of protecting and encouraging linguistic diversity, and yet at the same time the need for quality international communication. How can Esperanto deliver both? As well as its propaedeutic effect (clarity of concepts, early success/motivation, etc), there is the simple fact that Esperanto is easier and can be learned quicker so that time is freed up for the learning of other languages. Easy → time → diversity.
Doesn’t the EU have highly train interpreters? From what I gather these are people who spend YEARS training to perfect their craft, and they are culturally sensitive as well. The post that started this thread indicates that 40% of Europe speaks English. That is simply NOT TRUE. Just because you can ask for coffee, the newspaper, or barely follow a television program in English, does not mean you are ready to go toe-to-toe with the likes of David Cameron, who not only a brilliant public speaker, but is also very agile on his feet. Debating highly sensitive issues that effect millions of Europeans is not a game. Some, who claim they speak fluent English have accents so thick that you can’t even understand them, and then syntactically, they don’t always make sense. So, for clarity and precision, everyone should speak their own language, and let the interpreters worry about the headache. These politicians have enough on their plates, without now having to take language classes.
Irvine, who would go to the trouble of learning a “Universal Language” that will serve them to communicate with all the people of the world, regardles their original language because it will give them more time to learn another language. Doesn’t it sound a little silly?
Alex Escomu: “Alejandro… Stop commenting please…” Telling that to any person commenting in a public forum like this one is bad manners and undemocratic and many people with shout “Bully”. But I am not going to be offended, I just interprete it as you acceptance that your arguments don’t hold too much water. But then again that is what I have been saying for a while. Esperanto doesn’t stand the chance of a snow ball in Hell at noon in a summer day. But don’t worry I forgive you your trespasses as mine have been forgiven before. Anyhow, as always, it is very dificult to debate with fanatics. But be at peace, I will not try to learn Esperanto.
Alejandro, I repeat it’s better you stop commenting on Esperanto if you don’t have any idea of it. You are indeed showing thst with such “arguments” in so many replies. No arguments at all… It’s only your opinion based on ignorance and proud. You’ve never spoken Esperanto, you’ve never listened to songs (as you say “is ther jazz or Bosa…”), maybe, just maybe you have read for one minute the Esperanto article on wikipedia and still believe you know everything you need to know to compare English with Esperanto. Do you want me to test your knowledge of Esperanto as a whole? Would you take the test?
You are mainly just telling stupid “arguments” (your last one was Claude piron, his essays as a holy bible [just because someone said “I have never seen anybody make a serious effort to rebut his arguments “… And that’s your argument against o.O … Mocking], and hence Esperanto as a religion with fanatics… To sum up: Great “arguments”).
If i’d ask you about… Mandarin language and how difficult could it be for me to learn it and you only know it’s a Chinese language… Shouldn’t a humble person admit he really can’t state an opinion about it and he can’t really help? And then wouldn’t it be wiser to remain silent instead of just saying words based on ignorance about the topic you are discussing about?
You know Umberto Eco? He stated once Esperanto was a bad idea because he was an ignorant as you (and me 4 years ago) about that topic. He then decided to analyse it (you probably won’t as you just said “I will not try to learn Esperanto”) and finally stated the opposite.
Rectificar es de sabios.
The time freed to learn another subject (which could be another language) is an important point. The percentage of people that use that time to learn another language will help linguistic diversity, and will be motivated by different reasons, for example to learn a local minority or sign language, or their family language, or especially the language of a (neighbouring) country that they may wish to move to (EU’s movement of people principle).
Escomu. Rectificar es de Sabios. Very well said and you should follow your own advice. I dare you to read through this forum and find any real argument in favor of Esperanto. It have just been said that Esperanto is much easier that English and that it will contritube to linguistic diversity. That’s it. No numerical data in how much better it will be than any other language, not just English.
I don’t need to know Esperanto to know it is not a good choise as a lingua franca. Just as I don’t know many other other languages, that by the way you don’t know either, and still you and I both dismiss them as lacking benefits to be the World lingua franca. Many of them are spoken by a larger number of native speakers, which Esperanto have no even one. Esperanto is a second language for all the people who speaks it. However, Konkani has more than seven million native speakers and nobody is rooting for it. Don’t you think it will be more fair if we use a real language, with real history, real culture and real native speakers. Furthermore, Americans and Brits will not benefit from such a selection. But no, there is no economic, financial or social advantage of choosing Konkani and neither in choosing Esperanto. And that is why I compare the following of Esperanto to a religion, you don’t have a leg to stand on but still you want everybody to follow your unproved and unprovable assertions, on faith.
And look at all I have to say without having to call you stupid. Not that I couldn’t, shouldn’t or wanted but I am not going to lower myself to your underground level.
Alejandro: ” It have just been said…..a good choise … Esperanto have no even one. Esperanto is a second language for all the people who speaks it.” Not so, Sir! I have native speakers of Esperanto among my friends. One of them was German ambassador to NATO in Brussels, and then German ambassador to Russia. But, according to you, he does not exist! I must tell him this when I meet him next month – Esperanto has been in use as one of his family languages for five generations….his father never spoke any other language to him, but he is now fluent in Russian, Arabic and Portuguese, as well as English, French and German,of course…..Ulrich is living proof of how effective Esperanto is a a base for subsequent language learning. And there are many more concrete examples.
Alejandro… You are still showing your ignorance. When debating you have to come prepared with knowledge about the topics you are discussing about! You still have no knowledge enough about Esperanto and that’s why you are wasting my time. You’d better check facts you make up. A debate with you about Esperanto VS English would be nice if you had studied both well enough to know the ins and outs.
You said
“…native speakers, which Esperanto have no even one” will you now
say that was irony again? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Esperanto_speakers
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UzDS2WyemBI
I see you don’t get that any national/ethnic language can’t be the easiest and most culturally neutral for everybody comparing with Esperanto.
Here’s a report that was deleted (I wonder why… [Irony]) on the English wikipedia. What is better for Europe in economic terms? Only-English, Esperanto, or multilinguism?
http://speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Grin_Report
Alejandro, even if you know you know nothing about Esperanto, I bet you would list 10 reasons why Esperanto might be inappropriate as an international language (while English is not). Check your facts if you finally do, don’t invent them as usually here.
Here you have the vice versa listed by a polyglot:
“1. Esperanto is artificial
You may wonder why I put this down as an advantage for Esperanto, but think of it this way: Esperanto is an artificial language in the same way that a car is an artificial horse. Now I love horses, they are beautiful, but they would not be my first choice if my purpose was to get somewhere fast. (If my purpose was to have a fun afternoon, my choice would be different.)
Cars were designed to be fast. Esperanto was designed to be fast to learn and people generally report being able to learn Esperanto at least 5 times faster than another European language. Asians in particular have told me that they have spent 10+ years learning English without getting anywhere and they’re fluent in Esperanto after one year. Artificial is good. No non-artificial language can be as easy as Esperanto. English certainly isn’t.
2. English has not achieved worldwide domination
… and at this point it is doubtful it ever will. Even the most optimistic estimates say that 1 billion people worldwide can speak English. 1 billion is a lot, but it also means that 6 billion people cannot speak English on any level, despite investments in the billions of dollars, despite usually getting at least 5 years of English classes at school, despite English being important for their career, despite the influences of colonialism, Hollywood, the Pax Americana and the internet… let’s face it: at least 70% of people worldwide are permanently excluded from advancement and the global conversation because English is too hard.
Now you could turn this argument around and say Esperanto hasn’t achieved worldwide domination, but it was never given even a fraction of the chance that English got. Wherever Esperanto was tried at schools for example, the experiment was a huge success. UNESCO and its predecessors have recognized that teaching Esperanto at schools worldwide would be the ideal. Read up on “Propaedeutic effect of Esperanto” and the Springboard to Languages program that is currently running in the UK. I regularly talk to Chinese people, Japanese, Brazilians, Iranians, Israelis, Ukrainians, Togolese and Tanzanians in Esperanto.
3. Esperanto is a non-native language
Hardly anyone speaks Esperanto as a native language and Esperanto is not meant to be spoken as a native language, only as a first foreign language. This is what it has been designed for, after all. This design directly translates into Esperanto being easier to speak, because
a) You don’t have to worry about your accent much, almost everyone has an accent and people are used to it
b) There are much fewer idioms and references
c) “We don’t say it like that” is no excuse – everything that is grammatically correct is also correct to say (in natural languages there is a HUGE difference)
d) No irregularities creep into the language
e) The literary ideal (la bona lingvo) is to use learner-friendly words and use affixes for power, rather than digging up obscure vocabulary
4. Esperanto is neutral
Since Esperanto strives to be people’s first foreign language, that means that it puts everyone on the same level – if Arabs and Israelis meet through the medium of Esperanto, as is happening on a small scale already, they will be meeting each other half-way, having each invested a bit of effort. Same for Americans and Russians. Neither has the advantage of being able to talk the other against a wall. It’s a different atmosphere when people meet on equal terms like this. Some describe Esperanto as a linguistic handshake.
5. Esperanto does not endanger smaller languages
All major world languages – especially English, but also Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, Russian, French and so on – have been and are being promoted at the expense of smaller languages. At this rate, 90% of the world’s languages will be extinct by 2050. Cultures, oral history, poetry, stories, ways of seeing the world and indigenous knowledge of the healing powers of local herbs etc. are lost at the same time. It is a huge-scale tragedy that most people aren’t even aware of.
Wide-spread use of Esperanto would allow people to keep their diverse native languages without losing economic opportunities. Already now, the World Esperanto Association and various regional Esperanto associations and foundations are the biggest defenders of language diversity and the rights of minority language speakers at the United Nations, UNESCO, EU, Council of Europe and other international organizations. Last year I joined the External Relations group of the World Esperanto Youth Organization and I have already seen / participated in their work for minority languages at various international conferences.
6. Esperanto would save everyone a lot of money or time.
International organizations would benefit tremendously. The European Union currently spends ca. 50 billion Euro per year on translations. Other international organizations have the same problem – while also treating non-English speakers and non-English NGOs as second-class. UNESCO doesn’t even consider project proposals written in Spanish, and that’s one of their official working languages. This is how we have so many European NGOs helping around the world – local-led NGOs, who could provide cheaper and more meaningful help, aren’t even worth a glance.
It’s not just international organizations that would benefit though. More than 6 billion people would. As a non-native, instead of spending 5-10 years of your life (and likely a lot of money, unless you live in Europe) mastering English, you could spend 1-2 years mastering Esperanto and use the remaining 4-8 years for a project that is dear to your heart. Maybe learning another language, maybe doing a MA, maybe founding your own company, who knows. It’s a lot of extra time. Thinking of the 6.5 billion people worldwide who do not speak English as their native language, it’s staggering what we could achieve by collectively saving this much time. To me, it feels like a crime that we don’t.”
My point simply is: How many people are presently actively learning Esperanto?
Even Chinese has a very strong possibility of becoming the World Language before Esperanto is even considered. The economic advantages of learning Chinese are so much greater than that of Esperanto they don’t really need to much explaining to anybody except Esperanto diehards. The same goes for German, Spanish, Russian and of course the one with the greater benefits, English. And nobody is rooting for any of them to become the one language. Not even for English that has more detractor and hater than supporters. Nevertheless, English has become the most spoken foreign language, and the language representing the greatest economic, cultural and financial influence in the World today, Whether we like it or not, that is a fact.
How many people are actively learning Esperanto nowadays? How much economic, cultural and financial influence does Esperanto have? If you have better statistics that say otherwise you can post them here.
I don’t know much about Esperanto, that is a fact. I came across Esperanto when I was a young idealistic university student in the early seventies. I met the activists and advocates, I started leaning the language and found it unappealing, so I dismissed it as something of not much practical value at the time. That doesn’t say that it is a bad language, it only says I wasn’t interested. Today, after serious consideration I still dismiss it for its lack of practical value and its irrelevancy. That still doesn’t say it is a bad language. That is just my opinion. That said let me say that if after 120 years of very active advocacy the Esperanto movement has been able to grow to about 3 million speakers, most of them as a second language (I am going to accept your definition of native speaker, although I don’t agree with it because the number of native speakers so defined are still irrelevant to this case) and with doubtful professional proficiency then your movement is doomed to failure. More people learn several other languages as a second language than Esperanto every day. That is also a fact.
This is a debate between a religious fanatic and an atheist (me). Undoubtedly we are not going to reach an agreement. So I will be the bigger man, I am bowing out of the discussion. You win. Esperanto is the best language there is. And yes you can continue to call me stupid and any other things you feel like calling me. I refuse to do the same.
Alejandro, who call you stupid? I said a lot of your arguments because of simply ignorance are stupid, not you. You’ve said a lot of nonsenes and we’ve been showing you were wrong because you easily made facts up. Now you said “This is a debate between a religious fanatic and an atheist (me)”. Well , I wonder why I’m the fanatic in your comparison… (What a nice and polite adjective when debating)
Yeah, if you don’t believe humanity tends choosing finally the most democratic and efficient alternative, then you are right, Esperanto will never be learned massively but only the big languages.
I personally have faith in humanity. Big changes never come as fast as we would like, but they undoubtly come and many did come…
Hindoarabic cypher, slavery abolition, phone, metric system, democracy, peace, equal rights, internet, no starving, etc.
Big changes need time and nowadays many of the listed ones are lacking in many homes.
People with a long-term vision and will to change the world for the better will help, other people will be undifferent and just waiting, the others will try to hinder the first group because of short-term pragmatism or any other reasons.
@Alejandro Carlos
>How do you say that McDonald´s are bad for you in Esperanto?
As Humpty Dumpty would say, couldn’t you ask a harder riddle than that? :-D
“Manĝaĵoj de McDonald’s malsanigas.”
>Or that Spanish Serrano ham and Manchego cheese are fantastic with french bread and Chilean wine?”
Another easy question.
“Hispana serana ŝinko kaj manĉa fromaĝo estas bongustegaj kun franca pano kaj ĉilia vino!”
What do you think this is, Toki Pona or something?
>“Manĝaĵoj de McDonald’s malsanigas.”
Or, to be more precise and long-winded:
“Manĝaĵoj de McDonald’s estas malbonaj por la sano.”
As a matter of fact, it seems to me as the obvious choice! I speak everyday with people around the globe (mails, social networks, …) and think we should have such an easy-to-master-till-effectiveness common language!
Who is is asking questions like this one and is being paid for it? THis is one of the real European problems, not the amount of languages which is a reality.
French and German too, maybe Spanish, they are internationally very common languages.
German?! Besides Europe, what continents does the German language feature as an official language.
I’m sorry old chap, but the word DUMMKOPF seems most apposite at this juncture.
English is spoken as an official language on EVERY continent – French and Spanish are NOT.
FYI: Don’t get emotional, get FACTUAL!
Tarquin, French and Spanish are present in the five continents. Spanish is spoken in Western Sahara and Equatorial Guinea in Africa, Easter Island in Oceania and Philipines in Asia.
French is an official languages in most afican countries, Quebec, Haiti, Guyana,… in America, New Caledonia or French Polinesia in Oceania and Vietnam or Cambodia (members of the francophonie) in Asia.
Europe has a huge treasure: language diversity, even though narrow-minded people still see is as a problem. There’s not a global language but different linguistic areas with a “de facto” lingua franca. It can be chinese, russian, french,… A language doesn’t need to be spoken in all five continents in order to be “important”, but to serve as a lingua franca in its area. That’s the reason why chinese, russian or arab are work languages at the UN.
Secondly: even if we have an official language in Europe it would not improve the flexibility of the world market. If you want to work in Spain you need to know spanish, that’s the fact. If you want to work in Greece it will be the same. Locals will still speak their languages and if you want to be, let’s say, a doctor in Athens, you will need to speak greek. The same if you want to be a veterinary, a teacher (except of english teachers but they can do it right now without an official language), a policeman,…
Obviously in some fields foreigners might work without knowing the countrie’s language, as in international trade, science,… however this is happening right now, whitout the need of an official language.
Also we may consider that with a language you learn also the culture. It would be quite dangerous if we neglect the culture of non-english speaking countries. If you want lo work and live in Latvia, or in Finland, excepting some fields I already mention, you should at least show interest in the locals language and culture. Nobody will consider to go to Brazil or to Japan or to China and integrate into the local community without knowing the language evene if it’s not a must to work in there, the same applies in european countries.
So i find the idea of an official language unnecesary, discriminatory and not useful at all.
Welsh!?
You’ve got my vote :)
Hesitant about the word “official”.
NON et non ! Une des raisons, et elles sont nombreuses, c’est que l’UK est le pays le plus anti EU ! et qui, jusqu’ maintenant, n’adopte mme pas l’euro…..! Soyez un peu logique pour une fois: Merci
Ok Ok. But ‘English’ is only the bastardised language that it is thanks to you Europeans [Yes, you French and your Normans too!] constantly invading our shores and adding to its flavour. What is English compared to other languages even? Perhaps, the bastard son who was cast adrift and used his own ingenuity to come back stronger than ever. Throw in the fact that when Europeans settled Northern America it was not a choice but natural selection that brought the language to the level that would have such international consequences today. Well, there is surely a case to say that as far Europe goes, this article and your response Chams; English was created by the Europeans anyway so why start looking at it [and us] as self-righteous imposers upon our European fellows and their languages when you all contributed to the cause in the first place; it’s your language too!
@Brian Hallas
An insightful exposition exemplifying absolute verisimilitude.
Bravo!
@Chams Luna
Sacre bleu!
Remember, after POLITICAL UNION, there follows LANGUAGE UNION and the language is ENGLISH – French is too small a language in terms of demography, geography and vocabulary to compete with English; PLUS, French gender-ises almost ALL inanimate objects.
LOL!
You will have to be satisfied with the thousands of French words that are now subsumed within the humongous. multicultural, diverse and vibrant English language.
C’est la vie
mon,ma,mesmy friend.No!
Yes. Translation among 24 languages cost us millions and provokes serious misunderstanding
As an interpreter my work is iscreasingly about: first trying to understand what a non native speaker is saying in English, and in second place thinking about how to say it in French. And I’m slightly more impartial than my profession may suggest as I will easily reach the end of my working life before English becomes the official language of Europe. Besides you will first have to put down a series of revolutions against any government that tries to enforce this. My experience is that people are very attached to their mother tongue.
C’est faux. Lisez Michele Gazzola, Camille de Toledo etc.
I do not think any governemnt can do anything about the rise in the use of English. I deal with many youth groups around the world on projects, and the only common language we have to get things done together, is English. What is important also in this regard, is to see how well the youth read, speak and write in English. They do all speak every day thier national langauge and many do speak one other language, especially due to the many cross cultural marriages these days. In my own family; we are British, French West Indies and Japaneese, also speaking some Dutch and Itallian…. English will continue to grow in use around the world and it would be better to be prepared for this now; and instill in people the need for us all the learn as many langauges as we can. The cultural experience of speaking another language is fantastic and not to be missed…..
not the only official language, but rather a vehicular language in Europe, and English is the only logical one to use. See, english became a very big EU language only when Scandinavia joined, and many others first learn english. But of course, all other languages should have the status of official languages :)
of course not….
@Florin Holban
For the benefit of humanity ALL europeans should learn English (the Germanic champion), Spanish (the Romance champion) and Mandarin (the Chinese champion).
By doing so, all EU citizens would end up being the MOST communicative in the WORLD – a distinct cultural and business advantage.
bad idea. i love english but it already has it’s place as a working language. as do german and french. that is good. it should stay like that. nationality in europe is an unsurmountable issue, and people IT IS NOT A BAD THING! let us agree to work in english, french or geman; let us agree to speak the language of the land; let us agree to cultivate our own language! it is a functional compromise. three languages is already an intellectual challenge and this is good too, it helps enhance brain activity. it isn’t broken; don’t fix it.
@Florin Holban
For the benefit of humanity ALL europeans should learn English (the Germanic champion), Spanish (the Romance champion) and Mandarin (the Chinese champion).
By doing so, all EU citizens would end up being the MOST communicative in the WORLD – a distinct cultural and business advantage.
Great idea!
No!
It should be a requirement that all EU citizens shall learn 2-3 languages and it will also give them more knowleges.
KnowledgeS? Well, according to the English grammar you’re English is rubbish. How about everyone doing an intensive year in Esperanto and then they can try (and fail) learning other languages as much as they want.
With this comment of mine I might not convince everybody but I am sure that at least the computer nerds would get a pretty good idea of what I am trying to say.
Please allow me to compare two things that everyone have experienced in their lives but might be unaware of the existence of alternatives. Just like we all here can speak at least one language (or more, for those who happened to have been born off the British shores), we all have used some sort of an operating system on our computers (unless you send your posts to a friend of yours attached to a pigeon’s leg and then he types it in for you). However, what operating system is it? Let me guess. Just like the 99% of the Europeans who don’t speak Esperanto or haven’t heard of it, in the same manner, they are using Windows or Mac, and not Linux. But why is that? Is it because the OS X is damn cheap or Windows OS is virus-resistant? No. Sadly, you are all victims to the media hype created by the huge corporations. ‘Our products are the most widely-used’ they say (or was it most widely-spoken). ‘Our interface is very sleek’ (or was it the sounds of English were very refined).
Of course what they wouldn’t tell you is that both of them are very high maintenance. For example, no one would mention that you can download Lubuntu (or any other Linux distro) for free from the internet (like lernu.net) instead of paying at least £100 for Windows or £330 for a IELTS test which will expire in a year time, not to mention the amount of money you will have spent to achieve any level to sit the test in the first place. Or maybe the fact that you need some 3GB RAM Memory to run Windows whereas 300MB would be enough for Lubuntu. Because you need a lot of time and memory to learn all that kinky spelling the English-speaking children learn for two years as opposed to one term in a Bulgarian school.
But of course they won’t tell you this. Because they are big. Because they control the internet like America controls the media. Why would CNN, BBC, DW, France24 or EuroNews have an Esperanto edition? Because this would be tantamount to telling your customers in an Apple Store that Lenovo running Android is actually faster.
Sadly, not many Europeans are switched on to wake up and realise the thick blanket thrown over their eyes overcasting their eagerness for contact with the rest of Europe. Now hush dear European fellows and sleep well, because tomorrow you will have a long day learning the millions of words that even many English folks don’t understand, let alone pronounce with their broad accents.
in any case, there should be, at least, an official language that everybody should also study
By the way, why not Portuguese or Spanish? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers :). Yes, English should be the administrative official language, but not the “official” language…
@Paulo Calcada
Spanish, maybe BUT it lacks business, technical and academic credentials compared to English.
Are they serious? ahahahahaahahahahahah
Europe needs one language to truly be connected. What that language should be. Should be voted on soon.
People need to be educated before voting. Most people either have no idea about Esperanto, or they have prejudiced views which are demonstrably false. First an EU-wide information campaign, then a vote.
Yes! Let s make things easier!
Why not vote for it?
No. Europe is richer than that.
Ideally a non cultural language like Esperanto should be the official second and eu operational language. Then nobody could complain. But then nobody outside the eu could easily communicate with us. The reality is that English is the worlds language, despite the best efforts of the french.
@David Alan Roden
ESPERANTO! LOL!
Esperanto is to language as an artificial neuron is to a human brain – functionally equivalent BUT lacking HUMANITY, DEPTH, HISTORY and EPIGENETICS!
@Tarquin Farquhar
Esperanto is indeed the best solution for Europe and you’re wrong about it lacking humanity, etc. It has brought people together across national and language barriers for over 125 years, has a rich literature both original and translated, and has a history, though of course shorter than English or other national languages. (But Modern Hebrew also dates back only to the late 19th century. It’s in fact a planned language, no less than Esperanto.) Esperanto is a proven communication tool – I have used it over several decades with many people for conversations on all sorts of subjects. As far as being artificial, so is electric light, but I’m sure you use it everyday! Light is light, language is language. Esperanto works just fine and is much easier to learn than national or ethnic languages.
@ Tarquin Farquhar : Do you really beleive ALL the hoaxes you’re told? Did you ever hear of Socrates and Platon, and the Allegory of the Cave? The guy who never saw the day light thinks that the shadows on the wall are the reallity.
If someone says to you that pigs can fly or earth is flat, will you beleive that?
I can speak more than 5 languages, and in my opinion, esperanto is better than english for international communication.
The problem with people who support english, is that very often they are so proud to speak the dominant language, that they do not want concurrence. Perhaps they are right to fear that: if esperanto and english were put on concurrence, I guess that after 25 years, esperanto would win.
@Couturier Dominique
Please try not to be TOO emotional – is it any wonder that countries based upon and dominated by Romance languages tend to NOT do well in the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index top 20!
FYI: I got the cited language statistics from the EU:
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_en.pdf
go argue with them about the veracity of same if you do not agree with their statistics.
My point still stands re Esperanto – its fundamental basis was the Latin/Romance languages ergo it is biased against English or indeed ALL Germanic languages, African languages, Oriental languages etc etc
With POLITICAL UNION comes LANGUAGE UNION and that Language will be English – dominant in Europe, dominant in Africa, dominant in N. America, dominant in Australasia…
Stop being so emotional, get with the programme, calm down and practice your English language skills.
Adieu. :)
@Nyegosh Dube
I use artificial light everyday BUT when available I’d much rather prefer NATURAL daylight.
As regards your rich literature comment about Esperanto… LOL!
English is a broad, multicultural, diverse and acquisitive language, Esperanto is for Daleks!
Yes, it is already the accepted language for business. This is because the business world sees the common sense in using one language where as the EU spends most of its time pandering to the petty ego’s of member countries
And while were at why don’t we save the taxpayers shed loads of money and have only one location for the EU parliament to meet……oh wait, we cant because we are pandering to the ego of the French who insist on it shifting from Brussels to Strasbourg every so often
“Common Sense” and “EU” are two things you will never see in the same sentence
Seconded.
I agree with this comment. I know people that work for the EU and every week they go to Strasbourg for 2 days. Who is paying for that and why is it necessary. The EU makes no sense because individual countries will not surrender their egos.
To people that talk about loss of identity: you are aware that the overwhelming majority of European peoples (and beyond) are of the same descent and were once one and the same people speaking the same language? And that “once” is not really that far back?
I don’t think that people are ready yet for one language but the situation should be left to develop naturally and eventually switch to one language in future.
Don’t really care what language they choose. English is the only language I’ll be using
English speakers are a minority in the European union so ot would be very undemocratic towards the Latin family (Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian and Portuguese) languages and then there is the Germanic family so think again.
@Dimitris Paschalidis-Valof
FYI – English is the MOST multicultural of ALL languages it borrows from Latin, French, German, Gaelic, Scandinavian and of course ‘olde’ English. It is also the largest and most comprehensive of the languages you cited.
BTW, English is a GERMANIC language.
@Dimitris Paschalidis-Valof
English is the ONLY EU language that has a Language majority within the EU when native and second language speakers are combined in total.
Check out the EU document URL below for proof:
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_en.pdf
Remember, with greater POLITICAL UNION comes LANGUAGE UNION and the language of choice, of aspiration, of creativity, of excellence will in all likelihood be English – probably! ;)
Yes, English is perfect for the EU, especially when they are strongly debating leaving the EU. Common sense please.
I expect that {British} English could be the official operational language in EU operations of the Parliament, Court and Central Bank, while keeping all other languages official cultural languages of the EU. I can say by experience that the real time translation of speech in the parliament works well, but it’s always good to work under a single language to avoid translation redundancies and, in consequence, misunderstandings.
Por mis cojones.
English is the world language and when mastered to its full it is the most communicative. French and Italian languages are far more beautiful that English, but, the necessity for total understanding in legal and other matters is more important. However, all languages are important and we should collectively be bilingual. How dreadful the Opera is sung in modern English for example. Only one language would make the planet as dull as dishwater.
Personally I love all European languages, they are so revealing which tells of our tribal connection throughout the continent. Starting with Greek and Latin of course.
@Catherine Benning
Don’t forget the influence of Sanskrit on Greek BTW.
After all, all European languages fall under the INDO-European branch of the linguistic origins tree.
@Tarquin Farquhar said: “After all, all European languages fall under the INDO-European branch of the linguistic origins tree.”
That is simply NOT TRUE.
@Garikoitz Knörr
Sorry old chap, you may well be correct BUT I am NOT prepared to accept your assertion UNTIL you provide some evidence – which I’m sure you can…
@Tarquin Farquhar
Basque? Finnish? Hungarian? Estonian? Saami? Maltese? You have a very strange view of what is a European language……..
I thought that “the influence of Sanskrit on Greek” was a very funny statement.
https://www.facebook.com/Britishinfluence?fref=nf
Well if English becomes the official language than you have to make sure that ALL MEPs and all delegates etc have a good command of the language which is certainly not the case. Unfortunately, many speakers think that everyone is understanding their English, when in reality it sounds like anything but English!
See? English is very problematic and very unfriendly language. Motion dismissed
http://www.britishinfluence.org/
NEVER ! JAMAIS ! NUNCA !
I suggest Hungarian.
But seriously, since EU is already US’ poodle, that would be the next logical step towards losing European identity. Very sad if that happens.
Considering English is a European language it’s hardly a loss of European identity
But as you suggest. lets make it Hungarian……It will be a pain in the ass for the millions of EU citizens who don’t speak Hungarian but at least it will be one in the eye for the US and after all, that’s what the EU is all about for some people
Absolutely NO.
It’s not so difficult to speak french, english,spanish or german. Everyone can speak his own language and learn one or two european languages (basic or medium level).
And in the Parliament, the politians should speak very well, at least, a foreign language and understand more than one.
I have friends who speak many different languages and they don’t have as many responsabilities as politicians… So, i’m not asking something impossible.
Yes! I do not particularly care whether it is English or some other language, but let us not complicate this world any further and create another Babel Tower by multiplying official languages! PLEASE!
@Nando Aidos
WELL said!
Why? No need!
Yes.
Kind of goes against the notion of “united in diversity” doesn’t it?
@Nathan Cornfield
Yes, said epigram was always oxymoronic.
For administrative reasons yes.. It is too expensive to translate tons of legislation in all languages. But all languages should remain EU official languages for anything else! United in diversity remember?
@Christos Mouzeviris
I’m a believer in an extended ‘Sapir-Whorf’ hypothesis.
Certain languages [at least according to TI] engender and foster corruption. The EU should try to keep away from such languages methinks.
Yes, English leads the way as a simple criole, easy to pick up…
Definitely not, especially seeing they want out. Multilingualism is best
English is the obvious working language for all EU institutions: http://www.vox.com/2014/6/11/5799678/map-where-europeans-speak-english But every state language (and large minority languages) should have official status, with important documents and laws should continue to be translated into all state languages (if translation into so many languages is ever perceived as a problem, that should be an indication that too much legislation is being produced).
I don’t think so but more or less every one should speack a little bit
Should English be the only official language of the EU ?
Alternatives being ? Until a better solution we all will sound like Indian actors in a Bollywood production. Hindi sprinkled with american expressions. Funny, but it reminds me of Steve Martin playing a french detective being taught on how to pronounce “Hamburger”.
“Official” does not mean “compulsory”. English would be a “lingua franca” as a common second language (not instead of local languages), allowing people throughout the EU to converse freely, no matter what their derivation.
Interesting that the Hungarians seem to be the worst at speaking another language, given that their own tongue is one of the most impenetrable on the continent. Strange, I thought most Hungarians had a working knowledge of German.
I think English should become the second official language of all the EU countries. We should teach all the children English as a second/third language. And everything should be written in local language + English. And administration should be done also in English everywhere in the EU.
What I see is that my foreign friends here in Budapest always need help, as administrators in banks and bureaus don’t usually speak English.
And that’s the case everywhere else… It was really hard for me to buy a train ticket in Varna, Bulgaria.
Deutsch wird am meisten gesprochen. So es sollte Deutsch werden.
..In die Union natrlich, da draussen wird russisch am meisten als erste Sprache in Europa gesprochen aber in unsere Union ist deutsch die mit fast 100 milion die grste.
the british monarchy is very near to become the same toxic as stalinist dictatorships … I strong warn all states of the world to serious protect intern data from London access, and for diplomatic obligations, do a controlled falsify of exchange data with London, about any detail of your citizens and your internal state data
@Ioan Dumitru
How are you aware of such sensitive information?
If English is accepted as the official EU language, 27 Member States would be giving up their sovereignty – why should any country accept the English version of acts of legislation as the official version when national courts all function in their own language (rightly so too). What’s this erroneous illusion that all Europeans speak/understand English?!
25 and counting
No, not at all… Cultural and linguistic diversity is what what makes the EU unique
Portugal :
United Kingdom
UK, France
Te has equivocado de debate, cerebro
The reason why Hungary has the worst percentage (65%) of people not speaking any foreign languages:
*Spain: There are Catalonians, Galicians, Basques who speak their own language together with Spanish
*Germany: There are lots of Turkish and other immigrant people who speak their own languages as well
*France and UK: Also lots of immigrants speaking their own languages
*Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Bulgaria: Their old people speak Russian
*Slovakia: There are 500 000 (10%) ethnic Hungarians who speak Slovakian and Hungarian as well (they’re most probably counted as “Slovakians who speak a foreign language: Hungarian”), and in addition: Slovakians already speak Czech as well…
*Romania: There are 1 400 000 ethnic Hungarians who speak Romanian and Hungarian as well (they’re most probably counted as “Romanians who speak a foreign language: Hungarian”)
*Slovenia and Croatia: Their old people speak Serbian because of Yugoslavia and because of their languages are close
In Hungary there are no major immigrant communities, neither major minority groups, neither is there any language that are close to Hungarian.
So I think a much better and much more fair research would be how much percentage of people speak English in a given country (or German, or French). Because I’m not really impressed if a Catalonian speaks Spanish and Catalonian or a Slovakian speaks Slovakian and Czech or an ethnic Hungarian in Romania speaks Romanian and Hungarian.
Good Point Tamás. The same argument can be used for Portuguese people. In percentage we, in Portugal, do not have any reasonable minority bigger than 1%. By other way we can talk Spanish easily and understandable by the Spanish.
wow… sincerely? … very bad idea, as it would be a step backwards as far as culture is concerned… there is not just one culture in this world… i am swiss living in portugal and therefore continue perfectly understanding why switzerland still doesn’t want to join the EU … EU definitely should be inspired by the swiss example, not only regarding its democratic principles, but also regarding the languages… whoever goes into any important function be it private business or politics cannot do it without speaking at least 2, but better 3 of the 4 national languages…. so why should english become the unique “european language” ?? seriously …
Herbert, whilst I admire the Swiss knowledge of languages greatly, I think you may need to re-think the ‘democratic principles’ part of your argument. I’m afraid it’s not that long ago that women were given the vote in Switzerland, which doesn’t seem all that representative to me.
Would it make things easier? Yes.
Is this what a large majority of states have done in their legislative systems, simplify by making one language official? Yes.
Is it the EU’s way? Not if the EU is to be a successful integration process in the short-term (next 50 years). The EU needs to integrate in diversity, by diversity and for diversity. Languages have intrinsic value and remind us that we remain united in our difference.
What worries me is not the diversity in official languages (overall is not as costly as traditionally thought), but the fact that the EU is still a club of states and not a union of citizens. That it is states that define integration and not citizens. Once we’ve made a union of citizens out of the EU; then, let’s talk about it. Let’s take it into consideration.
No, plus that will give the force to some multilingual states to become more centralist regarding languages. And regarding large minority languages I agree with the Scottish dude up there. Just a doubt. Will Catalan qualify as a “minority language”? because it has 11.5 milions of Speakers (more than finnish, slovenian,slovakian,norwegian,eestonian, latvian, lithuanian) but it has an unclear status of officiality. Officiality and preference in all its spoken regions except in Valencia, categorized as state language together with Basque and Galician which are also named sometimes as “state official language”. And I also think that learning or knowing one of the working languages (because the EU has 23 official ones as far as I know) should be a request for being an MEP.
All those who complain about the loss of identity seem to forget that the majority of EU countries have already sacrificed a good deal of this when they adopted the Euro.
The justification for the Euro is to make transactions easier and more transparent across the EU and it is obvious that the next step for “ease and transparency” in business is a common language
The truth of the matter and whats really getting up the nose of the whiners is that the suggested language is English as used by that “awkward” member of the EU and the despised USA.
@ Paul X:
Not to mention the rest of the world where many have English as their first language. The US is a bad user of the language as the spelling they grope with is cartoonish and their children are taught in school that this mediocrity is correct. They are too stupid to be expected to learn proper English. Too hard to manage you see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_entities_where_English_is_an_official_language
I remember working in NYC and being derided for my spelling as I wrote favour instead of favor or some other equally as idiotic spelling dispute. Then, added to that, an aghast Clinton type American woman, who had great difficulty speaking without that awful throttled roar they use, ‘and you eat layyam’ (being lamb with numerous syllables) ‘Oh my God how disgusting.’ Of course, when I reminded her they served ‘layyam’ in the Plaza Oak Room she brushed it off as for foreigners only. Still, they can’t eat with a knife and fork though. Not something they can work to master.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4eg7V7O10E
I find the current situation (English, French and German) reasonable, but in case the UK quits its EU membership, then German and French should become sole working languages in EU institutions. This would reflect the size of population and contributions to EU budgets.
NO. Unless EU joins USA, or a Greater Great Britain. That’s a completely stupid idea. Most national governments terribly succeeded in establishing a single and only official language for its own nation (deleting the regional ones to deal as inferior and useless), but now the idiots are rising on top level, after smashing the regional ones, now destroy the languages at national level as well. Result? Less culture, less brain, less ability to discern, oh but look! It’s “Utilitarian” for global business :-D
Ίσως πρέπει να μάθουμε όλοι μία νέα γλώσσα!
B’fhéidir gur gá dúinn a teanga nua a fhoghlaim go léir!
B’fhéidir gur gá dúinn teanga nua a fhoghlaim go léir!
Whatever the “emerging #language of #Europe”, everybody should learn it next to their native tongue!
I fully agree with the statement that this “would help boost Europe’s economy and sense of unity, because it would make it easier for workers to travel and work anywhere in the Union”. It only makes sense!
If it’s English, with 40% of the population speaking it already, so be it.
No, Latin.
@Giorgio Maria La Rosa
Ohhh! you are many centuries too late for that bus.
No!! But the author of this article should be shot immediately.
More Tolerance. More different cultures are much better for creating better solutions for economy. But with a frame for welfare. http://www.WWSEEP.com .
Try to be the only in UK…
Englis already IS the official language of the world
What a load of linguistic imperialism. More people speak Spanish and Chinese. Please get real. Have a look also at http://www.lernu.net
Strange, no English here to express his/her opinion
@Eugenia Serban
Oops! :)
Is Tarquin Farquhar and English name…?
@Yvetta
I’m sorry, but I couldn’t quite understand your rather bizarrely constructed [English?] sentence.
An English person would have!
@Yvetta
Extruding beyond your limited logic and knowledge might I point out that people hailing from the following countries would also perhaps understand your pigeon English:
Scotland
Wales
Ireland (N & S)
+ of course many in the Commonwealth.
As regards the forum question, POLITICAL UNION will morph into a ONE LANGUAGE UNION and I’m betting it will be English [or less likely German] that WILL WIN.
Just as Neanderthals and Denisovans are immortalised within fragments of the DNA of Homo Sapiens, so too will most other EU languages be immortalised in the massive multicultural hyper-diverse vocabulary of English.
Perhaps they would (not necessarily all of them), but that does not make them English :-)! Funny how you twist the conversation and avoid answering the question…Hopefully, the Scots, Welsh etc have better manners than yours. Actually, I know for a fact that they do! More intelligent individuals perhaps…capable of a debate…don’t need to resort to twisting meanings and insulting. Intelligence is what makes the difference for sure!
@Yvetta
If you want to know the origin of my name don’t be lazy – look it up on Google.
As regards your last splenetic, vitriolic, catastrophic and illogical tirade – please try to refrain from such uncivilized rantings.
Well, I have checked it. You see, you really do know less than you think you do…It is NOT an English name.
As to my response…., because it doesn’t suit your purposes that doesn’t make it
“splenetic, vitriolic, catastrophic and illogical”. The fact that you are resorting to characterisations exactly proves my point that you have no arguments and are incapable of a debate. So, thanks for that!
PS. You don’t have to be English to have any worth in this world, Tarquin. No need in pretending you are of a different ethnicity to what you actually are. Especially, when posting under a non-English name.
no
Aren’t the EC-EU architects once more dragging all Members voters stealthily screaming & shouting a bit further into an arranged happy or unhappy marriage? Does the EC-EP have an open ended mandate to introduce endless changes & add-on’s- without ever going back to all voters for approval? Where is the elusive FINAL EU blueprint?
It remains a piecemeal treaty decided by a handful! The present process is rather reminiscent of a Constitution writing Assembly- searching for THE final EU solution! It is still unable to function as a mature, working & finalised Constitutional Democracy.
Ignoring the above- being pragmatic & assuming the European target should be first & foremost a “globally competitive European economic block”- which is rich in innovation & entrepreneurship- my only choice would be to strengthen & adopt ENGLISH- before we all have to learn either Mandarin, Spanish, Hindi, Bengali, Portuguese or Russian in future- besides our own native language. No doubt- the more- not less- languages one knows- so better!
Rubbish! No way!
@Marta Leandro
One Europe, one language. WAY!!!!
Why not Esperanto or Latin?
The European Union has already been using English as its lingua franca in all government offices, so what is the point that is being made here? So it is a fait accompli. Case closed.
Europe is really diverse and multilingual! English is work language! No way English is one of the 24 European Union Languages …
Europe Union…not English Union ;)
What about Euro-English?
The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty’s Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).
In the first year, “s” will be used instead of the soft “c”. Sertainly,
sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard “c” will
be replaced with “k”. Not only will this klear up konfusion, but
typewriters kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome “ph” will be replaced by “f”. This will make words like “fotograf” 20 per sent shorter.
In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double leters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent “e”s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.
By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing “th” by “z” and “w” by “v”. During ze fifz year, ze unesesary “o” kan be dropd from vords
kontaining “ou”, and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of leters.
After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer…
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ZE DREM VIL FINALI KOM TRU !!!
https://scontent-b-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1929327_7034073382_8966_n.jpg?oh=f7a74fc899d5bdd38a8f4b514fd9b45b&oe=5505F591
Sure, why not? It would drive Putin crazy! Anything to keep the fascist Russians at bay.
no, europe must stay like it is
I love differences between people and the fact dialects survive but after a lot of European travel the one thing almost all parents want for their children is the English language. Many Italians even reckon it will replace Italian in Italy which would be a tragedy. Given the globalisation of the world and the continued distrust between regions it would be ideal if everybody had English as a lingua franca and also a couple of other local languages. That would of course leave us ‘monolingual’ English to sit on our fat a@ses to learn nothing :)
I visited France. They look upon you with disdain when you try to lecture your limited French so that you can learn more and become better. I stopped studying French after that trip, and will never try again. The language is excessively verbose (to a fault) and the pronunciation to spelling is as bad if not easily worse than English.
Esperanto has trilled R and letters with directions that change sounds. The language was developed to resemble Romance languages, so it’s very biased to learners from places like France, Spain, Portugal, Romania, and to a lesser extent Germany and Slavic languages.
An English learner is going to have almost as much if not more trouble reading and enunciating Esperanto as they would French because if this. It retains many of the top issues from other Romance and Slavic languages.
The reason why so many English speakers are monolingual is because Countries like the US are huge with decent economy and we don’t have to leave it for vacation. Secondly, foreigners are often snobbish if you travel for language immersion to learn better. Funny how French people Complain of identity whe. They generally don’t want to help foreigners (but expect help when they come here!). In other countries I’ve been to, like Spain, people are eager to help, but also eager to use you to practice their English so often nice Americans we yield and drop to English to be helpful.
Yes! Its logical and objective! English is the Business language of earth.
What do you mean with this word “objective”? It’s NOT “objective”. It’s a myth.
English is mainly an instrument of cultural and ideological imperialism.(USA-Canada-UK). Europe has to become autonomous and self-governing, self thinking!
@Couturier Dominique
Calm down old bean – try to be logical and objective – English WILL be the sole official language of the EU.
C’est la vie, say lavatory! :)
No
yes
I love cultural diversity, but we are speaking about a practical, generalized and common language for all the Europeans. What we have to use… greek, spanish, portuguese, french, german, italian, catalan, danish, gaelic???
In 2017, English will be a native language for very few EU citizens… I hope we will then be rid of this ridiculous debate for good !!
Esperanto estas eble. http://www.uea.org/ kiel neutrala kaj internacia lingvo.
La diversité linguistique est fondamentale pour la culture au sens plein du terme. Ce serait confondre culture et communication que de vouloir se limiter à une seule langue réduite à des situations de surface éphémères (airport-english).
Of course not. If we’re looking for just one language, I would suggest Esperanto.
Ofcourse NOT ! Think of an English speaking EU where UK has resigned from membership ! Don’t you see how ridiculus the situation would be ? UK has not joined the Euro, neither the Schengen zone and to me it seems they are reluctant to stay for a long time within EU. Furtermore although English seems to be one of the easiest languages to learn it takes too much time to master it. There are millions of people around who have taken courses for long years and still they are unable to speak. Why don’t we think of Esperanto as the future language for communication within EU. Within two years of Esperanto teaching we might have Esperanto speakers that are double the amount of English speakers within EU. An easy to learn, European, neutral and providing equal rights and possibilities to every one.
What about creating universal artificial language like esperanto, but more worldwide range? English is for english people. It’s like I would ask ‘should Polish be the official language of Europe?’ why not…?
Strange idea! Esperanto DOES exist. We do not need a new language “more international”. Esperanto IS international, and already spoken in all the continents (Yes in China and Japan, and a lot of places of Africa, Latin America…
Please, get informed about it
http://lernu.net
Michał… Twój kraj jest kolebką esperanto.
Uczę się twoja języka bo podróżowałem w twoim kraju podczas Kongresu Esperanto
Michal, Your country is the cradle of esperanto.
I am learning your language because I travelled there during and after esperanto meetings. I went already 3 times there.
In practice, it’s much easier to have one official/operational language, so English is the only option… that doesn’t mean that cultural diversity would be lost at all. Or you prefer to be a mess with all those languages – it’s just not possible to function properly then.
It does mean that cultural diversity will be lost. I’m Irish. We only managed to import some of our culture into our version of English. There have been no native speakers of Irish in my family since those born around 1850. Even so I do not feel that my native language, English, is my language. I have no love for it – and I would abandon it without regret.
As a British person who speaks a minority language (Welsh) within the UK, this question is pretty tricky… (not least because it was learnt alongside Arabic and French.) Interestingly, when speaking to my European neighbours, I often find that I have to defend my own language as they are so fully in support of English – despite having their own native languages. It suggests that English has already conquered Europe…even if people aren’t happy about it, the majority accept the situation. I still think it would be a shame to speak English at the expense of other languages. Surely, our society is sufficiently progressive to find space for all languages?
We should use Esperanto: it’s easy to learn; it does not give any one national/political group an advantage; it’s fun! But hey… make me king of the EU. I’m a native English speaker. I’ll be running things while you’re still learning how to spell things.
Trio for King….Mi amas tion!
Mi subtenas Esperanton!
.!mi amas ,sed ne subtenas Zamenĥōfan Esperanton kiel dominanta en la mondo internacia lingvo ,chjar q^i ( qhi ) ne estas perfekta internacia lingvo ,!sed estas nur simpla kvazau^nacia lingvo kun neqhisfarita gramatiko kaj tre limigita alfabeto -+ !echj ne eblas qhuste lau prononco skribi anglayn nomoyn ,uzante nur esperantlingvay literoy ,!mi kreis komunan alfabeton kaj komunan multlingvan ortografian skribmanieron lau^ GOST “Dasheevica” ,nomata lau^ mia familia nomo ( ,GOST -+ Globala Ortografia Standardigita Transliterado) ,nur surbaze de 26 latinay literoy de la angla alfabeto kaj simplay tipay literkombinoy ,entute 86 skribsignoy ,nomatay fonemay “jeltonoy” ,el ili ,pro kio mi ricevis nojvan ( q^ia naciEespa dialekto = > aliay naciEespay dialektoy = > aliay naciay lingvoy ,!mi jam multe chji+tie skribas kaj pro chji+tio mi provos dau^rigi en aliay respondoy.
No. Language is much more than talking, more than translation e/o reciprocal comprehension. Language is about thinking, cultural expression and diversity. This is what we are also exploring in the Emma project: http://www.europeanmoocs.eu
No, and even raising the idea is preposterous. The UK is a small, insignificant island from a mainland European perspective, not in any sense an integral part of European culture. Although in many European countries people learn English, they almost overwhelmingly dislike it (with such exceptions as Luxembourg or The Baltic). The EU (and the UN) is a predominantly FRENCH idea, and France is the arch enemy of England and English. So no, nay, never: don’t even dream about it.
There are only three possible candidates for the EU common language, but none of them will ever be accepted anyway: 1) French, for the obvious reasons of France being the idea behind all international unification efforts like the United Nations and Union Européen; 2) Italian, for being the closest to Europe’s not-so-ancient, just recently abolished common language Latin; and finally 3) Esperanto, being the only neutral, easy and logical choice for such a language (but not widespread enough yet to have the momentum).
So do not count on a common language in Europe in the near future. :-)
I agree that the EU needs a common language. However, it would be a missed opportunity to choose English for this role. It’s too complex and inconsistent with its rules.
If the EU is going to set a mandatory language for everyone to learn, it should be Esperanto because of its neutrality, the ease and quickness at which people can learn it, and its word construction/grammar advantages.
This would save all countries a lot of money, reduce the need for translators, it would free up more of people’s time which they could then use to study more advanced uses of language instead of being stuck with the basics as students are with English and French. For example, 6 years of French in school and my classmates could barely speak a sentence. 2 weeks of Esperanto and I am competent at a basic level.
NO. It is going against the EU value & moto: United in Diversity!!!
What about the mediterranean lingua Franca also called Sabir ? it was the alternative to Latin during the Middle Ages ( from XIV to XIX) and it didn’t represent any country , i think we can resurrect a form of this language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca
I agree in having a common official european language wether is english, french Latin , Esperanto , Sabir , or a ressurected dead language ( like Gaulish ) and make it our own, and this doesn’t mean that you dónt have to learn the language of the country you are living in.
My reasons :
It would help to create a common european identity after the atrocities of WW1 and WW2.
Better communication and understanding.
Examples l ike Indonesia where a common language helps in creating a sense of national identity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca
English is popular in the EU precisely because of its neutrality in many cultural conflicts close to home: Flamand/Walloon, Dutch/German, Catalan/Spanish, Switzerland! Paradoxically, if the UK left the EU, the status of English as a neutral language would be enhanced!
In fact, English already is the default working language of the EU: FR and DE translations lag the EN documents after important meetings for example. Even France has superceded its notorious loi Toubon for the loi Fioroso, which permits English to be used in many teaching contexts (a big change).
Why should this be? Consider that in 1950, the 6 founding countries of what would become the EU spoke 4 languages between them (FR,DE,NL,IT). As translators work into their mother tongue, there are 12 pairs to service: FR>DE, FR>NL, FR>IT, DE>FR, DE >NL, DE>IT, IT>FR, IT>DE, IT>NL, NL>FR, NL>IT, and NL>DE. Which was just about do-able.
But if each of the 24 official languages of the contemporary EU were to have theoretically equal status, each language would have 23 translation pairs, so 552 different kinds of translator would be required. In fact, this was abandoned as impractical and French and English serve as ‘pivot’ languages. Beautiful as the French language may be, the whole gender thing is an arbitrary mess for little gain which English (wisely) long ago abandoned.
English’s adoption by the EU will paradoxically cause the greatest problems for native English speakers, who will have to work harder than anyone if they are to attain escape velocity in another European language, which is after all, a fairly basic intellectual requisite: if you only know one language, you don’t even know what a language is.
Pour distinguer l’aquarium, il vaut mieux n’être pas poisson!
English “neutral”? Are you joking? In some few circumstances, perhaps, but its teaching and learning AREN’T.
The learning and use of this language affects the thought, the way one looks at the world. A child who learns english reads texts speaking of breakfast, of red phone boxes, cricket, the Queen and so on… That makes in his mind the language and the culture likeable, pleasant… and other languages and cultures strange or even inferior, unnecessary…
You’re right about the huge amount of combinations in european translation, but the question is quite different if a “pivot-language” (is it correct?) is used. In Google-translate, this pivot is english, wich is illogical, for example because it’s impossible to get a good translation for conjugated verbs.
A lot of people are working on other sytems, using esperanto, wich is better for this purpose. I hope that after 5 or 10 years it will be possible to use them.
Few people do know, that between the 1st and the 2nd world wars, while people from the lower classes didn’t learn foreign languages at school (but the upper did, obviously), a lot of syndicalists or other volonteers learnt esperanto.
But esperanto was considered by all the “bourgeois” “not a real language” or “the dangerous language”, and while France wanted its own language spread, US and GB wanted the same.
To make its own language stronger than other ones there is a “soft war”, but it’s a real war.
We suffer now because of the ideology of the economic “T.I.N.A”, but very few people can see that there is a “language TINA” too, a false “TINA”, because the alternative does exist, is full of qualities.
Please, rewind all posts and you’ ll see very clearly what is the international language of Europe. And the world. Any remark in a different language than English is not comprehensible for the rest of us., except for the co- nationals. But here we are on an international site. And now for my co-nationals only : Va salut prieteni si va doresc sarbatori fericite ! MERRY CHRISTMAS FRIEND IN EUROPE !
English is already emerging as the international common language, not only in the EU but worldwide. Making that official will be stepping on many, many toes, and will probably backfire, so not a good idea. Nudging by promoting the study of languages in all countries for people of all ages will be far more effective in practice; many people will choose to learn English exactly because it’s such a widely used language already.
It does matter in the EU institutions, like the EP. The translation from all languages into all languages costs a fortune. I’ve always favoured a model in which people in the institutions can speak and write in their native tongue, but listen en read only in the official languages of the EU. That would cut the number of combinations, like Estonian to Maltese or Latvian to Gaelic, enormously. An idea?
I don’t see a point to have 1 official language for Europe:
– Tourists can visit a country without speaking the language of that country.
– It’s rarely possible to work in France without speaking french, in Germany without speaking german or England without speaking english.
Having an official language won’t change that.
Any text that’s supposed to be understood by any citizen should be translated in all European languages.
The only place where an official language could be needed would be for European administrations. They need to be able to communicate freely to work efficiently, independently of the country of origin.
The easiest, most useful language to learn is English.
English should be the MAIN official/communication language of the EU, but not the only one. Other languages are also good as long as they are used as alternatives on the right level. Take Francophone countries, for example: why use English if all negotiating parties speak French?
NO!!!!
Why should english be our main language if the UK wants to leave? We should increase the importance of frech and german as the languages of the 2 most important countries.
Definitely, of course, yes!
Vorrei sapere se Lei ha argomenti per appoggiare questo “SI”?
Perché gli Italiani, cui lingua è piuttosto male, no si studia molto all’estero, sono pronti a tradire la loro lingua e cultura? Lo sa Lei, che nell’Unione, l’italiano vienne poco usato? Non si lamenta di questo?
E probabile, che il “vero”é popolo italiano, quello che non ha possibilità di esprimersi qui IN INGLESE, quelli che guagano poco… non sentono tale ammirazione per l’inglese. E verosimilmente una reazione di “gente per bene”, danarosa…
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Have you any argument to support your “Yes”?
Why Italian people, whose language is less and less learnt, are they often the most enthusiastics forget and betray their own culture? Do you know, that italian is a big looser in the EU institutions? Aren’t you sad of that?
I think that the REAL people of Italy (those, who do not succeed in learning english) is not so happy of english demination. Only middle classes are.
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Avez-vous des arguments pour soutenir ce “oui”?
Pourquoi les Italiens, dont la langue est en déclin d’apprentissage, sont-ils souvent les plus enclins à trahir leur langue et culture? Savez-vous que l’italien est souvent le grand oublié dans les institutions de l’UE?
N’êtes-vous pas triste de cela?
Il est probable que le peuple italien réel, les gens du bas de l’échelle, ne sont pas aussi admiratifs et heureux de la domination de l’anglais. C’est surtout la réaction des classes aisées de la société.
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type errors… :-( I hope people will understand (thanks to the use of 3 languages!!!)
No, I think each country should stay on their own cultural backround and language.
yes, it does, but as language of work, just for the European union Institutions and bodiesthe national languages have to be preserved as part of european culture and heritahege, that’s my modest opinon about.
What’s so bad about having English as a common EU language? Nobody asks you, guys, to forget your own languages or learn other than English foreign languages…The real strength is in multilingualism! The more languages you speak, the better you understand the world and the world understands you!
ask the scots, irish, welsh and cornish about that……….
@Maria Benjumea: “Yes. Translation among 24 languages cost us millions and provokes serious misunderstanding.”
Maria, taking your reasoning to its logical conclusion would mean that everyone would need to achieve a level of proficiency in English that would obviate the need for translation into their mother tongue. At best local languages would be used for social communication but not for serious topics such as legal, political, economic and academic interactions.
This would have 2 major unintended consequences:
1. Increased power to the native English speakers to the detriment of second-language English speakers.
2. The inevitable death of at least some European languages over time.
Paying millions to translators is preferable to paying millions to the elite English speakers who would take all the top positions; and better than throwing interpreters and translators out of work. Serious misunderstanding occurs much more readily when people struggle to express and comprehend discourse in a second or foreign language.
English is doing very well globally, thanks in part to the huge business of international English testing, with all that entails of language classes, teacher training and grader norming, not to mention the costs of the tests themselves.
Please let Europe maintain its pole position in the language maintenance stakes!
Vive les differences!
Thanks Patricia. I know from several years your TED conference here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/patricia_ryan_ideas_in_all_languages_not_just_english
The problem is that a lot of people who speak about languages know very few about the question. They “believe” to know, but actually they don’t.
And what about esperanto? ;-) I think it’s the only democratic solution, as a “springboard2languages”. Without Eo, multilinguism will not exist or will be the privilege of a minority (IMHO, less than 30%)
Merci Patricia. je connais depuis plusieurs années votre conférence TED. Les gens croient savoir, mais ils sont souvent plus dans la foi aveugle que dans la connaissance.
Votre avis sur l’esperanto? je crois que c’est la seule voie efficace vers une démocratie linguistique. Comme tremplin vers le multilinguisme, qui, sans lui, restera lettre morte ou bien le privilège des plus éduqués. En tous cas moins de 50%
My hesitation about the number of people who could communicate made me type two differents (supposed) percentages. Obviously, it’s not possible to know “how many” but in my opinion, not the majority of people could learn english as an efficient second language, AND a second or a third one. This is “utopia”.
But halp the people to learn 2 or more languages becomes reallistic, if esperanto is used for this purpose.
English would make a fine third language. Esperanto is the answer for second language learning in Hungary, Italy and Portugal.
Well said, Neil, congratulations! BUT in my opinion, if we had esperanto as a common language, the third one will not necessarily be english, but german, spanish, italian or… any language of Europe. Obviously, this could not occur in two years of time, but in more than a decade, perhaps two…
Certainly not, English is an anarchic, mongrel, dog’s breakfast of a language and would make an absolutely terrible choice. Contrary to the widely-believed myth, the inherent difficulties of English grammar and the multiple meanings of countless words which can only be understood from knowing the context in which they are used make English a hard language for others to learn well. Further, adopting English would require just about everyone else in Europe to learn and accept incorrect meanings for words whose correct meanings they already know from their native languages, because lazy anglophones have perverted the English form of those words by habitually misusing them.
What Europe needs instead is a new Latin, i.e. a neutral language which would be a common second language for people across Europe just as Latin was for educated Europeans during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. No language could fulfill that role better than Esperanto, which brilliantly combines attributes of the Germanic, Latinate and Slavic languages with traits found in many other languages.
Petition :
Esperanto, an official language of the European Union, now!
We, citizens of Europe and of the world, call upon you to make Esperanto the 24th language of the European Union, for a Europe that is more democratic and more just with respect to every language and culture on the continent. Choosing Esperanto is another step in the construction of Europe. There is a lack of debate at the European level. Europe must not be only an economic entity; it must be a Europe of the peoples. https://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
“The closest thing to a universal human language today is English, he added, but English in many ways fails to live up to Zamenhof’s dream, which was to hehp create a more egalitarian world.“
Jonathan Pool, political scientist from the United States (He works on the political and economic consequences of linguistic circumstances and language policy).
Not English, but Esperanto. In my experience it is ten to twenty times easier to learn than English.
Only a neutral language can be justified as a common “second language”.
L ‘Europe est un pays dont les langues en sont les peuples . Sans devoir ouvrir la bouche , impossible de se parler . Ouvrez donc la bouche en Esperanto vous serez sur votre planète .
Avez-vous remarqué, mesdames et messieurs les animateurs-fonctionnaires (etc…) européens de ce forum, que justement, les Européens qui ne savent pas assez l’anglais (globalement les citoyens du bas de l’échelle sociale, ceux qui la rejettent le plus…) NE PEUVENT PAS participer à ce débat… parce qu’ils ne sont pas au courant à cause de l’anglais, et même s’ils savent que ce débat a lieu, ils ne sont pas en mesure d’y répondre. Oui, je sais il y a “translate google” à la rigueur… Mais cet outil donne souvent des résultats assez tristement comiques. En tous cas, il ne fonctionne que pour les langues les plus répandues. Français-allemand ce n’est pas terrible. Ne parlons même pas de Français-polonais.
Combien de Polonais ici dans ce débat?
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We have to notice that people who cannot use english well enough to understand and write in this language cannot give their opinion here… The snake bites its own tail.
The poors are those, who mainly refuse Europe, and those who do not know the other people, other cultures… Is it a cause or a consequence?
Who takes part in the present debate? Does a lot of Polishes? Does a large amount of people from all countries?
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(italiano, lo aggiungero dopo, devo uscire…)
Right!
Bien dit!
Goed gezegd!
Tion vi ĝuste diris. Mi uzis Google por redakti mian reagon en la angla.
I can say things like “The book is on the table”. But for more difficult things I need a dictionnary or a machine… after 60 years “using” this difficult language.
Mi povas aktive uzi la anglan nur por diri simplajn aferojn. Por pli malsimplaj aferoj mi bezonas vortaron aŭ tradukmaŝinon… Kaj tiam mi eĉ ne scias, kiel prononci la vortojn. Preferante ne ridindigi min, mi silentas dum diskutoj en la angla.
Ik heb 60 jaar geleden Engels geleerd op school en het moeten gebruiken in het bedrijf, dat het ons oplegde als zijn “officiële taal” om “internationaal” te lijken. Maar ernstige discussies gingen aan mij voorbij.
Ons Engels opdringen is oneerlijk en niet democratisch.
Altrudi al ni la anglan estas maljuste kaj maldemokratie!
Having a common language has huge benefits to everyone involved.
English already is such a language. It is the de facto second languge for most of Europe, and any country and individual who cares about the global market are already investing more and more in English education.
The world does not need to be pushed to learn more English. The last thing we need is for the EU to make it _the_ official language. All it will accomplish is to make it seem unfair and upset many people. Leave well enough alone.
From the UNO/WHO translator Claude Piron:
The various systems in use
Ineffective, unfair or unethical systems
Essentially, there are three methods of international communication in use in today’s world, the third one being so marginal that it would hardly be worth mentioning, if it was not precisely the only one that succeeds in avoiding all the perverse effects that have been listed above.
One of the systems is the bureaucratic one. Several languages are used, and communication is ensured through translation and interpretation. As is usually the case with bureaucratic methods, it involves much waste and a lot of unproductive work. With this system, human energy is not put to efficient use. What has been said above about the unethical earmarking of financial resources refers essentially to this system. It presents all the negative features of the Soviet way of life.
The second system is the “jungle” one. It is based on the precedence of power. One language is in use. Those who cannot use it are excluded. In many cases, although they are victims, they are made to feel guilty (“I have been too lazy or stupid to learn the language that everybody uses; if I cannot communicate, it’s my fault”), so that they do not realize that they are the victims of an unfair method of communication. This system is not without common traits with the caste system of India. People have a lot of privileges if they were born in the right society: where English is spoken, i. e. where you can be lazy and selfish and still enjoy access to international contacts, and even expect, for what is felt as legitimate reasons, to be able to communicate wherever in the world you are traveling. An English-speaking physicist has been able to devote to physics the many hours that his colleagues from other cultures have had to devote to the painful and slow acquisition of English, (14) but he is unaware of his privilege. When you are a member of the upper caste, you take your advantages for granted. This caste system involves a hierarchy: people from Germanic cultures can reach the required level in less time than people with Romance languages, and the latter in less time than people with Slavic languages. Peoples with languages like Chinese or Indonesian are even more likely to be excluded, since the amount of time they need to master the language is enormous. Not only have people outside the upper caste been forced to devote many, many hours to the study of the upper caste’s language, moreover when they have to negotiate or discuss with somebody belonging to this upper caste they are at a disadvantage: their opponent can avail himself of a richness of vocabulary and a feeling of security in language use that they will forever be lacking. Their opponent has a mastery of the language weapon, they have not. We should meditate the following comment of a Hopi lady who sadly realized that by authorizing mining in the reservation, they had destroyed the harmony of their environment: “If, twenty years ago, our English had been better, we would never have signed that contract.” (15)
An effective, fair and ethical system
Contrary to what most people imagine, there is an alternative to both the bureaucratic and the jungle systems. A really democratic system exists and works perfectly. Its functioning can readily be observed in the field. When the various means of communication used to overcome the language barriers are compared in practice, with objective criteria, the third system, which is only marginally used, stands out as the only one which avoids all the perverse effects discussed above. It is called Esperanto.
Esperanto is a language born of one century of international interactions in a small community of people spread all over the world and encompassing most cultures, most religions, most professions and social layers, linked by nothing else than the use of that language for international communication (16). This community developed simply because all over the world there were people eager to communicate across cultural barriers and to enlarge their horizons who did not have the time to acquire one of the prestigious languages. So they adhered to a communication convention proposed in Warsaw in 1887 by a young man, L. L. Zamenhof, under the pseudonym Dr Esperanto. By using it in practice in all sorts of settings, they transformed that project into a living language. Speakers of Esperanto use that language only in international communication, as a substitute either to interpretation or to the kind of broken English usually in use, today, in intercultural situations (17). They think that the language which has grown out of Zamenhof’s project offers the best means of preserving all mother tongues and of protecting the cultural diversity of our planet.
Esperanto can be learned in an eighth of the time required to be able to communicate in an acceptable way in another foreign language, and in a thirtieth of the time required to have an actual mastery of another foreign language. It can be said that one month of Esperanto is similar to one year of another language as far as the communication level is concerned. It is the only existing language in which the average person can have a communication capability equivalent to the one he has in his mother tongue.
Non, l’anglais ne peut pas être la langue utilisée dans l’UE, pas plus qu’une autre. En soutenir l’idée, c’est l’imposer. L’argument selon lequel il est accepté dans le monde des affaires n’est pas un argument, mais seulement une mention statistique. Si l’on veut travailler dans un pays bien déterminé, la moindre des politesses est d’en apprendre ne fût-ce que des notions de sa langue.
Unfortunately, I have no clue what you said, yet you obviously understood English! ;)
One thing is the understanding in a passive way and English does a great service.
But we, Esperanto speakers, wait more from an international language and we have this with Esperanto. It’s frustrating that such a long time (and re$ources) invested to the learning of English and other national languages for an average poor level of fluency or just superficial vocabulary.
Mi esperas, ke neniam tio okazu / I hope, it will never be!!
Welcome/Bienvenue/Shalom/Salaam/Bemvindo to Wall Street…Broadway in Esperanto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5ssPJWzI1g
Whilst English may be the language of the future, what about the languages of the past and present? Should these not be maintained and given a future?
Is the language of Shakespeare more valid than that of Molière, Cervantes or Goethe? Je ne pense pas! ¡Yo creo que no! Ich glaube nicht!
As a native English speaker and a fluent speaker of two of the other “big seven” global languages (French and Spanish), I cannot imagine anything worse than English being the official language of Europe.
We are a culturally diverse continent, we have different heritage and so we have different vocabulary. I live in a region of Spain where the habitually spoken language is not Spanish. Here we speak Valencian, which I am learning. I am learning it because to understand the language is to understand the people, the history, the food and the very land upon which we live.
A language has so many words and expressions which are peculiarities of that language which are used to describe the environment from which it sprang.
English is great at describing the environment in which it developed. Here in Valencia, do we need words such as “deluge, drizzle, spitting, pouring, sprinkling, monsoon, torrential, cloudburst, precipitation, shower, cat and dog weather, good for the ducks, drenching, piddling and of course pissing down” (to name but a few) to talk about rain?
No but other words such as “socarrat, garrofón” even “paella” which is the pan the food is named after are equally valid here.
Any speakers of languages other than English will be able to list countless words which are exclusive to their territory. Look at how the French describe wine, how the Spanish describe air cured ham and how the Germans describe sausages. Just within the few clichés, we can see that Europe must retain its linguistic diversity.
“It is time that the various nations understand that a neutral language could become a real bulwark for their cultures against the monopolistic influences of only one or two languages, as it now appears increasingly evident. I sincerely hope Esperanto will rapidly be making more progress to assist all of the world’s nations.” Vigdis FINNBOGADOTTIR, former President of the Republic of Iceland.
Never. And if it were to come, nations hatred against EU would come with as well as the end of the european dream.
For me, there are only two possible EU language: Esperanto and Latin. ;)
I agree that English should be the official language yet people should speak at home their native one. Children will grow bilingual in English and their native language. It’s all about being bilingual in your language plus English best.
I think that bilingualism is a MUST in EU! And this bilingualism should be in ENGLISH and whatever other native language.
Russian should be the official language :))))
I suppose that unfortunatly some people come and dump here their little “comment”, without reading the other opinions.
This is —NOT— democracy. And I do repeat that a lot of Europeans CANNOT partecipate in the present debate, because THEY ARE NOT ABLE to use english (though they were taught it)… This is a bias!!
For those, who can understand italian OR french, I recommand this article
http://www.eraonlus.org/it/politica-e-lingue/item/11108-il-falso-mito-dell%60inglese-n%C3%A9-democratico-n%C3%A9-redditizio.html#.VJLTqskYtH4
or my translation here (see the PDF):
http://blogs.mediapart.fr/blog/dominique-c/181214/le-mythe-trompeur-de-langlais-ni-democratique-ni-rentable
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Some facts:
Multilingualism costs for taxpayers only 0.0085% of the GDP of all 28 member states, less than 1% of the budget of the European institutions, and barely more than two euros per year for every citizen.
“Only 7-8% of the European population (whose mother tongue is other than English) claims to have a very good knowledge of the language, that is to say — adequate language competence to participate in political activities— in an English-speaking democracy.”
(AND: Who are those, who can speak english?)
“it is the European citizens in the most educated segments of the population, and occupations with the highest incomes.”
So: to choose english would be to give power to the higher social classes, and deny democracy to the lower ones.
SMEs in EU are suffering the lack of a common language. When in America or China someone start to market a product, they have a much larger initial market. In EU usually the market is national. To enter the market of another language is a cost in terms of sales channel and management of the operations. We shall have a common language, or competitiveness will have an additional break.
Additionally we would like to have equal access to the service without discrimination. I live in a country where I am not native speaker. Going trough the bureaucracy and only to understand any contract is very difficult. I feel discriminated here.
We have to respect those who want to live local by respecting each native language. However, if being European is a value to be supported, I think we have to go to have a common second language for our continent.
Instead of inventing an ideal one, English is already the de-facto language of the union at least for those who do business. It would be helpful if contracts, law and signs should also be in English. Public offices shall have at least one English speaker at the front desk.
Matteo, yesterday I wrote:
“I suppose that unfortunatly some people come and dump here their little “comment”, without reading the other opinions.” did you read it?
Please DO read the complete texte of Michele Gazzola. I suppose you can understand italian? http://www.eraonlus.org/it/politica-e-lingue/item/11108-il-falso-mito-dell%60inglese-n%C3%A9-democratico-n%C3%A9-redditizio.html
The need of “more english” IS A MYTH !!!
I has been led by a politic will of USA-UK (Churchill). But though english is taught to a huge amount of pupils, THEY DO NOT LEARN IT WELL. A real waste.
To choose english as “THE” communication language is against democracy and it is NOT efficient.
Gazzola concluded that, for Italians (for their jobs), the learning of French or German is economically more profitable than the use of english.
I am tired, fed up with people who repeat the same things without controlling if it is true.
We have not to “invent” a new language, we have got it, it works very well. Anyway, even without esperanto, Europe and trade can work very well without using english as “THE” language of Europe.
SO MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT EARTH IS FLAT, T HAT PIGS CAN FLY…
Very sad…
Type error!
NOT “I has been led by a politic will..” but
IT has been led…”
Sorry, we don’t talk the same language. Every europeean should be able speak in her mother tongue.
A ce jour, à ma connaissance, il n’y a qu’une seule langue reconnue par plusieurs nations, laquelle, après avoir été étudiée et comparée avec deux autres sous la direction de la Société des Nations a été désignée et proposée par cet organisme international. Il s’agit de la Langue Auxiliaire Internationale ESPERANTO qui s’est répandue à ce jour dans plus de 120 pays par ses valeurs de langue de Paix, logique et équitable.
Après une pareille discutions, Léonard ORBAN, ex-commissaire aux Langues avait convenu que le véritable problème de l’Europe était le coût des traductions et traductions au sein de UE. (dénoncés par le Professeur F. Grin )
Alors pourquoi vouloir imposer une langue qui n’a été choisie ( en cachète ) que par nos cousins anglo-américains ) Soyez donc raisonnable et finissez par arrêter l’hémorragie de nos finances comme les dépenses outrancières faites pour faire croire et imposer aux jeunes européens qui ne pourront vivre qu’avec votre langue en leur allouant récemment 140 milliards !
Merci pour votre lecture.
I am factual ! My point is that English is not neutral because it is already the language of some nations. This is a fact. My point is that UK and USA are favored by the use of English. This is also a fact. My point is that using Esperanto, a simple language that anyone can easily learn, is more neutral than English. Still a fact.
In that sense, Esperanto is way more neutral than English and that is what is important (but if you want I can admit that it is not 100% neutral, but I thought it was obvious). The lack of neutrality is not caused by the vocabulary, but by the fact that some citizen, because of their birth, are fluent when the others had to make huge effort to speak a poor globish. With Esperanto everyone has to make a small effort (compared to the one needed for English). This is fairness.
> In your world [a biased, prejudiced and partisan one] English maybe the 3rd language of the EU [LOL!]
Not, once again, that is just a fact. Moreover, the fact that just a minority of EU citizen are able to reach a good level English is also a fact. We can not just forget this majority of citizen. Do we ? EU is far from being a English speaking continent despite the effort to teach everyone English for years and that is the reality.
I don’t believe in utopia and that is the reason why I don’t believe that everyone in Europe can be fluent in English ; that is also the reason why I believe in Esperanto, which of course is not perfect, but which is a pragmatic solution. Esperanto is way more easy to learn than English for everyone (but the English native).
Jamais de la vie !!!!!!!
Enthusiasm & idealism are not sufficient reasons to adopt 1880’s Zamenhof’s invented “Esperanto”! (He even tried his hand in global Religion)
Facts & figures however are:
* Language education is STILL the responsibility of EU member states. (In Soro’s homeland Hungary it is officially recognized- 4,575 speak Esperanto, it is also in use in San Marino)
* Esperanto is not mentioned by the EU Commission as an EU language and is
not the official language of any country.
* Between 100,000 and 2,000,000 people worldwide fluently or actively speak Esperanto. Currently there are around 1,000 Esperanto-speaking families, involving perhaps 2,000 children.
* Internationally, around 600 primary and secondary schools in 28 countries (including five in the UK promote it in primary schools) teach it and it is officially taught in 150 universities.
* Esperantists often say that they are standing up to a worldwide hegemony of English, but it is clear that Esperanto imposes its own hegemony so strictly that even English could be called preferable.
* The Europe – Democracy – Esperanto party (E°D°E°) contested the European Parliament elections in France, on a platform of making Esperanto the second language of all EU member states, taking 0.15% of the vote.
It could be argued that knowing a “Sign language” (~70mio deaf people) could even be more beneficial than the hobby horse of maybe 2 mio Esperanto supporters.
http://wfdeaf.org/human-rights/crpd/sign-language
– International Mother Language Day – A message in sign language | gestolingvo | langue des signes
http://www.linguistic-rights.org/unesco/Internacia_Tago_de_la_Gepatra_Lingvo_21_februaro_2014_Mesagho_de_s_ino_Irina_Bokova.pdf
– La Fédération Suisse des Sourds au Forum sur les minorités, ONU, Genève, 12 nov 2009.
Intervention (Mme Eva Hammar, FSS) starting at 2min:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttLJYfRNOYQ&list=UUCtLr2i65Uql5VuCZSrgUDw
English version (text/pdf):
http://www.linguistic-rights.org/dokumento/2nd_Forum_on_Minority_Issues_United_Nations_Geneva_12_November_2009_Eva_Hammar_Swiss_Federation_for_the_Deaf_SGB_FSS.pdf
Dr. Tove Skutnabb-Kangas (Emerita, University of Roskilde, Denmark and
visiting professor at Åbo Akademi University Vasa, Finland):
“[…] Esperanto would be a perfect lingua franca for countries and groups with many languages; instead of starting to learn English that takes years and years to learn really well, people could learn Esperanto fast and communicate with each other in it in a fraction of the time they need for becoming proficient enough in English. For international cooperation, for Indigenous peoples, for many multilingual countries, Esperanto would be a good solution.
[…]
as opposed to any big dominant languages, Esperanto has (and can have) no imperialist tendencies. It is genuinely not connected to anybody’s economic or political interests. I see Esperanto as a possible viable alternative to today’s languages for international communication.
Ignorance and prejudices may prevent useful solutions.”
http://www.linguistic-rights.org/esperanto-125/Dr-Tove-Skutnabb-Kangas-125-years-of-Esperanto.html
It would be usefull to translate the text of Dr. Tove Skutnabb-Kangas to many other languages: french, italian, german, spanisk, polish and so on…
Esperanto is not a language. A language is a cultural product, which is the result of the history of people. Learning languages is a way to open up to other people’s cultures and trying to understand them. Europe doesn’t need monolingual people, but open-minded dynamic people who speak four, five or more languages. Esperanto cannot be helpful in the process of understanding other people, understanding their culture etc. The answer lies more in working on the education of people, making sure that all member States make the learning of several languages compulsory, instead of having everyone to learn some artificial “language” which is not connected to any european culture as such.
I join the people who support Esperanto. I have learned Esperanto myself and I use it regularly. It is an extremely effective tool for international communication. Unlike what some people seem to think (such as the guy who mentioned Klingon in the comments above), Esperanto is undoubtedly real, living language that works for everything (talking about science, telling jokes, expressing love of writing poetry).
Compared to English (or French or German), Esperanto has the advantage of being significantly easier to learn for all Europeans and it is politically and culturally neutral (nobody can deny that the English-speaking countries have a disproportionate cultural influence in Europe).
@M. D.
Esperanto is a political AND biased language and is thus NOT neutral.
@Tarquin Farquhar
I got it, you hate Esperanto. But please inform yourself because you clearly have no idea of what Esperanto is in the real world.
And what the hell is a “political language”?
@M.D.
You criticise my knowledge of
DEsperanto and then you ask me what a ‘POLITICAL LANGUAGE’ is!!LOL!
The answer BTW is the socialist language called “Esperanto”.
@Tarquin Farquhar
I see, you’re just nuts.
LOL!
@M. D.
What is it with you and private parts? You seem to always lower the tone with your silly Esperanto erroneous ‘genderisation’ of inanimate objects.
Then you start referring to my gonads.
Please keep your postings clean.
@Tarquin Farquhar
1. Esperanto does not “genderise” inanimate objects. Stop spreading thie lie.
2. Pretending not to understand that words have several meanings (nuts = balls lololol) does not make you sound smart.
Gr8 b8 m8
Nope.
We were asked earlier and the answer was NO it shouldn’t
Btw merry Christmas
When you come to settle down in a new country without a job, you should be requested to know or learn the language of this country in order to adapt to the local culture and conditions before being allowed the benefits that the locals are entitled to…
Is that a joke? The UK is the most anti-EU member state.
When the UK are threatening to leave? No way! Even if I say so to my expense as I translate to EN
No way!
No,roumanien must be!..:):):)
Why dont we try with Greek ?
Not at all. Heritage and culture first.
Yes, absolutely, all the way. What sort of a moronic, subnormal question is this?
Yes, because English is already an international language. Everybody speaks English.
“Everybody speaks English”? We clearly don’t live in the same world.
@M. D.
Just what world do you live in old bean?
Is it Jupiter where all the Esperanto ‘Spiritists’ think the dead go to? [Do some research, you would be shocked by the company some Esperantists keep.]
At the end of the day, Esperanto is a political [hyper-socialist] language, its a biased [Romance-centric] language and it has the same pedigree as Klingon.
Sofia Alves Inacio: suponho que és portuguesinha. Vai ao meu pais e verás que a imensa maioria do povo espanhol não fala e não quer falar inglês. Acho que os portugueses dão pouco valor à sua língua que como a minha tem centos de milhões de falantes.
NO not the only but all europeans should learn at least one latin base language, one slavic based language, one germanic based language, one baltic based language and english.
No why should English be the only official language of the EU. All 28 languages should be official because not everybody speaks English
http://vocabank.info/
Yes! English should be the only official language of the EU!! Each girl-interpretor cost abt 5000 Euros per months!What for? Poorest and corrupted villages’ mentality Latvia paid 150000 Eros monthly on accout their poorest taxpayers! It is a” comedy francaise”
Intriguing debate. From a pure institutional cost and comprehension perspective this would be a great idea. And to be honest it already is
the case within the Commission and the Council. But on the other hand it
would not help to bring the EU closer to the people in the Member
States. Especially French and German speakers would feel even more
excluded. And we all know. The EU is standing and falling with these two
countries.
Esperanto.
Felesleges fellr?l rer?szakolni Eurpra,majd az id? mlsval megolddik a krds.
Right! English should be the only official language of the EU! Each girl-lover-interpretor cost about 5000 Euros monthly!1,7 mil-people corrupted and poorest Latvia has about 30 interpretors and it means 150.000 Euros monthly!What for?
Nein!
I think EU should recognises all EU language as official language. However english should be promoted as “tool” in order to communicate and also studying other EU’s languages should be promoted and encouraged. Ideally a European citizen should be able to speak his own language, english and at least other two major EU languages
English is already the language of business within the EU although French and German are also working languages. As long as the UK remains within the EU the English language will be a mainstay within European institutions. English is also a language used globally in commerce and trade.
Students across the world are learning English as a second language because of it’s global appeal and the potential it offers to improve career prospects.
All languages are important within the EU but having one official ‘working’ language would be prudent, and using English as that language would be advantageous.
It doesn’t really matter what is the language chose, but it is obious that not having an only oficial language makes us less competitive than our “comptetitors”. This is an obsticle that we can overcome if we renunce a little bit our national prides.
Yes
One of the big functions of language is the identity-marker. With the way people speak you can get much information about them. People speak the language of the group they feel belongers.
If English is the common language of Europe, Europeans will not feel themselves European but only their regional languages (italian, german…) . I think that the best way of making people feel themselves being part of Europe is the fact of speaking the European language. Europe needs ist common and own language.
Esperanto is a good language for Europe because it is made from germanic, slavic and romanic elements. The majority of esperanto-speakers are european and the language has evolved its culture mainly in Europe. Esperanto is an European heridage and it is a good candidate of being the common language of europe.
No of course not we can’t give England to mutch. We should instead introduced an obligation of also German and fresh with in Eu.
English language is destroyed from the moment became eurocratic. So why not to use French too? It seems is not easily destroyable. National languages have to remain for the translation of the Lex (laws) and other national languages in the official sites of deifferent DGs so as people from all over E.U. may have an idea of what these Institutions serve for.
Yes!
Yes ! One EU language = English would be a great thing for development . All EU citizens should learn English .
No. Everyone needs to learn English, but this doesn’t mean that english will be the only official leanguage.
Los españoles no necesitamos hablar inglés así que estás muy equivocado, colega ibérico.
All languages should be official. Like in Switzerland. All citizens are intitled to the same rights and treatment before the Union. Todas as lnguas deveriam ser oficiais. Tal como na Suia. Todos os cidados usufruem dos mesmos direitos e tratamento perante a Unio.
LIKE!!!!!!
Yes .
Of course not. This isn’t the Soviet Union, guys.
Esperanto of course.
If you think it’s not a suited language, learn it well to prove it (you’ll finally love it).
All language imposed finally fade out, as ancient Greek and the once inmortal Latin did.
A french delegate at the League of Nations once vetoed Esperanto as one of the official languages because “French is already the lingua franca”. It’s sad to see people who are still making the same mostakes, they seem irational, close minded, with prejudices and blind to facts that Esperanto is indeed fairer, easier, multicultural enabling, etc.
English is anglocentric (esperanto’s vocabulary is latincentric… Even that centric is still fairer), it aims one culture, one language for the world. Non native speakers are thankful slaves that have to pay a high cost to become slaves. Why not Spanish? Or Chinese? Think about it, it’s unfair.
Being a native speaker of the chosen lingua franca and imposing it is imperialism, being a non native one willing the same… Is being a blind with a “i don’t have a dream” to the other slaves
I think everybody should learn at least English and Spanish, which will allow them to communicate with almost everyone in the Americas, and a lot of people in Africa and Oceania.
Yes!
I would agree, English is easy to learn for foreigners and one can have quite a decent conversation on low level English already.
You all that so happily said “yes to English worldwide”, that generally only learned English and never Esperanto (try it and get to a fluent level in order to have a solid point of view to compare both solutions), you are making the same mistakes as in the past other did. You are responsible, as I was 4 years ago (then i discovered and learned Esperanto), of thousands of millions hours/dollars wasted worldwide for the acquisition of an unfair, inefficient (try pronouncing The Chaos poem right… it’s on Youtube http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw ) not culturally neutral language. As you can see below, French was a mistake, English is a mistake… do you want Chinese later，o español? 我在学汉语呢，因为人都常常不聪明。
«The official languages of the League of Nations were French, English and Spanish. The League considered adopting Esperanto as their working language and actively encouraging its use, but this proposal was never acted on. In 1921, Lord Robert Cecil proposed the introduction of Esperanto into state schools of member nations, and a report was commissioned. When the report was presented two years later, it recommended the adoption of Cecil’s idea, a proposal that 11 delegates accepted. The strongest opposition came from the French delegate, Gabriel Hanotaux, partially to protect FRENCH, which he argued was already THE INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE. As a result of such opposition, the recommendation was not accepted.» source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations
Fácil para ti que parece que eres holandés así que claro que sí. Para los de habla hispana no es nada fácil aprender inglés. Es lógico que los que habláis idiomas poco difundidos estéis a favor de que el inglés se convierta en lengua comunitaria, cosa que nunca pasará, sin embargo hay que recordar que el francés, el portugués y claro, el castellano tienen cientos de millones de hablantes.
?? no no no!!! We must learn english but we got our own language!
no way! People deserve the right to make their languages be heard!!
No and No… and no. All the languages are official. This is not USSR.
English – the new Latin.
Nah! Make Farage cringe when he hears all the other languages :)
No Pakistani
merry christmas.
Yes,it is a good idea,and may be they change their mind,and stay in EU.
No. Vive la France!
Hebrew!
If the rumour is true that English will become the second official language in Germany, then English will definetly become very important in the whole of EU. I did forsee that already 40 years ago and so afterwards my sons attended a bilingual German-English school BUT did continue to speak Portuguese at home…They are fully fluent in the 3 languages at mother language level. The earlier a child starts, the best…
I’m from the USA so I really have no say so, as far as the USA goes definitely English.
I say no.
Most of people can not learn difficult language as English is. English does not have the characteristics that a language must have to be international. Esperanto has them but the governments did not give it an opportunity because they do not think enough about the people, more about their own interests.
Catalan is not an official language in EU. So, why German or French should be? It is no fair.
Why in -insert your deity here- ‘s name does everybody go on “redneck ” mode when someone speaks about making english the official language of the EU, along side the national language? NEWSFLASH !!! this ALREADY happens!!!!!. This is ragged, bigotted, raw nationalism at its best! For the sake of all that is holy someone with a Cyrillic keyboard (quite probably russian ergo not EVEN in the EU) said no it should not….
If you truly don’t want english to be the official alnguiage we can always go back to esperanto which was a very good language except that , guess it…. tha’ts right nationalism stepped in and said it was bad…..
–
No
Courrse not. Its not matter of equality.but matter of allowing curiosity, matter of diversing daily life enriching European.with desires for new vocablaries. Hopefully the one with the.desire learning and reading and.studying in other languages than english will be motivated and rewarded. Because now the one is punished through personal efforts. Think about new big languages of Euro
No, the government of the United Kingdom, does not do enough in Europe. There should be several official languages, but at the same time I suppose having fewer will cut bureaucracy.
And a new language? Or an english basic? Avec les paroles d’autre pais? Com a saudade de Portugal? Com la pizza italiana? …
We could consider Interlingua as the successor of the international Latin of the Middle Ages. Lumine is light, lumière, luz, but illumination, luminario is everywhere. Digito is finger, doigt, dedo, but digital is everywhere. Lumine and digito are Interlingua words from classical and medieval Latins. A modern Latin for Europe? Ita ad Interlingua!
English? Do you mean american???
We need Esperanto as unique official language, no more an EUglish clone! A E-Ugly-sh clone!
Another monster-language! We want a unique comon democrtic language, stop with colnes such as English (exept USA) – English USA – English (Australia/New Zealand) .look at the Swatch instructions e.g. ! …..
Wenn nicht Esperanto, lieber Deutsch die meistgesprochene Sprache in Europa, und besser verstanden im Osten, bis zur Beringstrae.
___
PS If, hypothetically only, it would be necessary, for any reason, an idiom of the UK, we want instead to adopt Scots. At least those do not spit on Europe!
No !
it is extremely funny how everybody is responding to this question, IN ENGLISH yet some are saying NO to English, in English! :))) Most of the communication on this page, is done in English… yet English shouldnt be the common official language??? Viviane Reding has her page in NOT english, and see how not that popular she is! :)))
If a question is posed in a language, it is normal (indeed polite) to respond in the same language.
I don’t think so. The people must to learn languages. All official languages should be official for EU too but for now some of them aren’t official… even if big population speak one language. If you sticking plaster on the mouth then that doesn’t mean people to stop talking on their own or native languages. The europeans must to feel free to speak in EU on european languages. This could be reason EU to fall down to a lot of former EU-members. Partial is possible to be created great artificial languages which to be more understandable for one specific language group or for more people.
for the ones who want German to be the common language :)))) https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10151631370959232&pnref=story
Its really hard to do bussines and work in Europe with 24 languages or more. I think english should be the primary one and make it official in the future years.
I’m a native English speaker, and this is frustrating to hear. To make matters worse, I’m training to be an interpreter. I put a lot of hard work learning these languages. Seems like technology is just putting everybody out of work, except for sitting behind a computer. And eventually that will be replaced by technology. So frustrating!!!! Please everyone, hang on to your languages, fight for them.
Where do you study interpreting?
Whilst no doubt all citizens of each member state will harbour nationalistic feelings, perhaps if we can we should put these aside and view this as an exercise in reality. This is that it is undoubtedly the unify language amongst all those spoken within the EU. I do not doubt that France and Spain will argue that their respective languages are also widely spoken on a global view, however not as widely at the European level. So if we wish to view this dispassionately, the argument for one official language is unanswerable. In my country ( UK ) we have Government, local and national, literature published in a plethora of languages. This in my view does nothing to assist creating unity amongst the various nationals that have come to our shores. The EU in much the same way surely needs the citizens of the nations that comprise it to somehow feel that the business discussed has a unity of purpose, a unifying language would go someway to dispel a perception of each country pursuing narrow national goals, rather than fostering the greater one of the common good.
Nee. De heersende mode voor Engels is geen reden om hem als unieke taal in Europa te hebben. De mensen dat Engels praten zullen de goede banen hebben, en de andere zullen de slechte banen hebben. Dus natuurlijk de mensen van Groot Brittannië zullen een dispropotionele invloed in de zaken van Europa hebben. De Britte (en ik ben zelf Schots) hebben deze recht zeker niet verdiend.
YES, YES and YES for all EU level institutions. This will improve efficiency, decrease burdens and save euros that all we pay as taxes
No se usiamo l’inglese diventeremo tutti anglofoni.
L’Esperanto rispetta le altre lingue, è facile e democratico-
Viva l’Esperanto
Ne, se ni uzas la anglan cxiuj farigxis anglalingvanoj.
La Esperanto respektas aliaj lingvoj, ĝi estas facila kaj demokrata.
Vivu la Esperanto
Esperanto estas la plej efika komunikilo, ignorata de la pliparto de homoj, i.a. amaso de unulingvaj parolantoj de la angla. Esperantistoj volas krei du-lingvan au’ tri lingvan mondon.
Does it sound logical to make English the official language, while the UK, the only country where there are native speakers, is the greatest eurosceptic and wants to leave the EU? Remember that you choose the official language of Europe, not the Globe.
NO, NO, NO! Absolutely not. It would give permanent, unearned advantages to native English speakers, like myself. Esperanto is 10 times easier to learn and would be fair to everybody.
I think that no. If Eu have to speak only one language, that language must be a neutral language, like Esperanto. The Esperanto is easy to learn and neutral, I think that it can be the solution of this issue.
I teach English for Academic Purposes as professor (I earned my doctorate in second language acquisition). Based on my studies and my experience teaching English, and having learned and acquired several other languages fluently, I highly recommend that the EU NOT adopt English as its vehicular language since it is very depend on Anglo-Saxon culture(s) for its expression. This may also be a problem for its use in science – an example is the idea that microwaves are waves – a metaphor from English. English is a very good language in business deals since it is a source of enormous ambiguity often hinging on cultural usage within its own native speaking communities.
I have studied Esperanto and was surprised at the ease with which I acquired it and with which I can express myself clearly in it, since it avoids the cultural ties to a specific ethnic community. Yes, many of the words in it are of Latin origin but they are roots more than words, similar to the zi in Mandarin, that is dependent morphemes which only take on meaning when combined with other morphemes. I am now studying Portuguese since I am considering moving to Rio. I bought a Portuguese-Esperanto dictionary for my readings in Portuguese, since the renderings are less ethnically slanted than if I were to use a Portuguese-English (which one? British or American) dictionary. The logical option in my view would be for Esperanto rather than (British) English.
[e.g. my using my mother tongue as a born citizen of the USA] Question what is the mother language of a born citizen of the USA?
Also, you may have earn a doctorate in English as a second language but didn’t do too well in science “This may also be a problem for its use in science – an example is the idea that microwaves are waves – a metaphor from English.” It is not a metaphor, microwaves are waves unless you think that sea waves are the only waves. Or maybe the real waves are the ones people do in stadiums while losing the game.
“Yes, many of the words in it are of Latin origin but they are roots more than words” The same as in most other languages that adopt word from unrelated languages, although many of them a pretty unchanged, fiancée, résumé, electricity, physics, electromagnetism. Bah! they re too many to count.
And finally, is ther jazz or Bosa Nova in Esperanto. Blues, Country, Cha cha cha, salsa o merengue. No? then it is a boring language.
Sorry! I am making too many mistakes, too sleepy. Chao, I´m going to bed, need to wake too early. Got to make the donuts!
About microwaves – how is Esperanto different from English in this regard? “Ondo” – wave; “mikroondo” – microwave, cxu ne?
@Alejandro Carlos
Why do you ask ” Is there … in Esperanto? ” and then say “No? then it is a boring language” without giving a chance to answer? The fact is, that music has been a significant part of the Esperanto movement since the very beginning; the first songs in E-o being written by Dr. Zamenhof himself. Since then, people have been writing songs in just about every musical genre; just knock about on YouTube a bit; it’s not too hard to find. I read somewhere, I wish I could remember where, that there are more songs translated into Esperanto than into any other language. Add that to all the original Esperanto songs (and there are a great many) and… boring? I think not. :-) I’d provide links to some of my favorites, but that would be to much hassle to do on my phone.
No, there should not be only one official language in the EU. However, consider that Esperanto could actively protect the EU’s linguistic diversity (via much greater ease of learning and the propaedeutic effect, for people of all abilities and situations), and could eventually save the EU 25 billion euro annually (Grin report). Drifting into universal simplistic English for the current generation as we now are should be cause for concern, but the momentum behind English is so great that at best we might hope for English+Esperanto for the next generation, and Esperanto+diversity for the generations after that. Change can’t be rushed, nor can it be forced, but (very) short Esperanto taster courses in European schools might be all that is required to achieve success.
@Aaron Irvine
The biased POLITICAL LANGUAGE Esperanto is NOT as diverse as English.
English borrows from European, African, Asian and Oriental sources and is a far larger language than any other EU language. Esperanto is a Latin/Romance based political language with NO gravitas and NO kudos.
Esperanto is at best the province of the naive AND ignorant and at worst the shield of the counter-Darwinian zealot.
Yes definitely ! english because its a global language, and 1 language because that is the simple way, why complicating things with more… english also because most of the people in Europe that speak a second language are in fact speaking english. …
No. In any event this is not something that belongs to the competencies of the EU.
Yes… English at least.. The more languages the better, but we can’t force everyone to speak a lot of languages. But if we want to achieve mobility in the EU, a second official language would help..!!
Don’t they already ?, I read somewhere that 90%+ of schools in Europe already teach English.
Isn’t one of the major rights of European citizens the right to speak their own native language, or any official one for the matter? This question shouldn’t even be here, to be honest.
The European Union should stress it’s importance in order to empower communication between European citizens. Yet under no circumstance should it be mandatory, not by European legislature.
I would say no, not mandatory but encouraged, I agree with Karel that this is not an issue for the EU.
Yes because is the inernational language de facto.
I would say yes. English is the accepted business language worldwide. Learning any languages breaks down communications barriers in the future.
In order to have an united European feeling, we all need to be able to speak lingua franca of the Union, which is english. After all, we, the Europeans, are multilingual by nature.
English is not a lingua franca, and never can be. But yes, Europe does need a real lingua franca, which gives parity of esteem to all languges and all peoples. And such a language already exists.
English is a global language. So, for the next generation to thrive it should be taught in every school.
As long as English is not the official language in each EU country, it cannot be mandatory to learn it. Don’t turn the EU into the new USSR, please.
?????! ???? ??????? ???? ?????, ?? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ? ?????????, ?? ?? ???????? ?? ?????. ? ???????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? 1989, ?????????? ???? ????? ??? ??.
?? ??? ????????? ?? ??????????? ???? ? ??? ????? ?? ????????? ?????? ?? ???? ? ??????? ?? ?????????.
——————————————————————————————-
Bravo! This is what the USSR used to do, but instead of forcing us English they were forcing Russian. Everybody in Bulgaria had to study Russian before 1989 and nobody cared if you like it or not.
I am an EU citizen and I would like to use my native language and my native alphabet.
Of course not!!! Is english, american, the european language? NO!
No. Just encouraged..
englisch with thout GB in the europe EU ?
it should. at least we would have one language to understand each other. I had difficulties in Brussels cos no one wanted to speak english, even if they know it. If it becomes official even better! More work opportunities!
No,let everyone choose. We have already too much obligations.
No,French!
Yes, and I think it already is. Then chosing another main EU language, from any country who is more determined to be part of EU, that will encounter problems with inferiority/superiority complexes among people of the biggest EU countries. So seems easier to keep english, which for more is the international language (two in one).
Each country should have their own as official language, and then encourage to learn a second one. It is quite frustrating going to another EU country and not being able to communicate.
Of course NOT! Naravno da NE!
No doubt about it.
Almost 100% of the Greeks under the age of 35 speak very well english.. It is mandatory in my opinion if you want a country to be tourist friendly!
Yes :-):-)
But do people read and understand what they are reading? The issue is not to replace national languages with English, but to introduce English as a mandatory foreign language at school. You can agree or disagree, but without distorting the terms of the discussion. On the “market”: the market does not do anything, on the contrary, it suggests that in order to be more employable people should know, and therefore ‘”study” at least one foreign language (and here the Brits are greatly disadvantaged, as in this area they are mostly illiterate). Last but not least, this is a discussion at European level, but education policies are decided at national level, so spare us the usual anti-EU ranting.
Sterile dualism. Were we to legislate we should aim higher and make trilingualism the standard. At the moment English is not exactly compulsory, tuition of foreign languages is, and English merely ranks first among them. Its a different dynamic entirely than that of designating English as a mandatory course by parliamentary vote and not by decision of some education or school board.
Yes
Yes! It’s my job!!!!
No, absolutely not!
The EU can not being in any legeslation that will cause unemployment; as this would not only put all the ESOL tutours out of business, but also all the translators working for the EU directly; and the EU wont do anything that would harm thwir own wallets.
Definitely! In Spain people have a really low english level. I blame to the educational system which has not promoted a more effective learning in foreign languages (mostly english). It is the international one and it is the best vehicle to communicate with other people all around the world.
in some countries, yes.
Yes
I think we should have more bilingual schools. Most of Polish pupils learn English at school, but many of them cannot use it later. If there were compulsory maths or history lessons in English, they would have more input and the chance of gaining decent language skills would be much bigger.
Learning English and an other foreign language should be mandatory for any EU student…
No, but more language learning and earlier in school would be very beneficial. Europe should aim for each citizen to know – at least! – three languages, which is not very hard (I myself speak four and can get by in another two)
I think it’s better to leave choice – many young people and children have parents or grand-parents from diffrent countries and in that case they should have the possibility of choosing another language than English – its never good to force – it’s natural that they prefer emotional relations.
No, and I don’t think that would be legally possible. There is a fundamental right of choice that EU should not try to violate by imposing too much obligations on its citizens.
No, and I don’t think that would be legally possible. There is a fundamental right of choice that EU should not try to violate by imposing too much obligations on its citizens.
In my point of view bilingual schools are the best possible option if we want to speak another language fluently. I would like to mention that is necessary to enjoy your time during learning, because nobody can force us to gain knowledge.
In my point of view bilingual schools are the best possible option if we want to speak another language fluently. I would like to mention that is necessary to enjoy your time during learning, because nobody can force us to gain knowledge.
Yes!
Yes!
Yes!
Yes!
Yes. I dont care if it’s an obligation, as long as it brings People more together. And that should be a main concern
Yes. I dont care if it’s an obligation, as long as it brings People more together. And that should be a main concern
no no noo-ou…
no no noo-ou…
what should be mandatory is that english people stop being lazy and arrogant demanding the whole world to learn their language because they are too stupid to learn other languages…. ;-)
what should be mandatory is that english people stop being lazy and arrogant demanding the whole world to learn their language because they are too stupid to learn other languages…. ;-)
Ich bin English und Ich Kann Englisch und Franzozisch sprechen und Ich lerne Deutsch.
While English is a widely spoken language the EU should reconsider the value of the romance tongues. In about a generation Hispanics will overshadow other Anglo white Americans. Mexico, one of the so called MINT nations, is also a large state whose growth can only grow. Furthermore, the Spanish speaking Philippines is also an economy which is often overlooked in the Asian region. Likewise the force of the French idiom has not lost it’s force in Canada or the rapidly accelerating economies in S.E. Asia. And let’s not forget about Brazil and some of Portugal’s former territories in an African continent still heavily dependent upon Europe. While English is essential to trade with many nations this does not mean that other languages cannot provide access to other lucrative markets where many opportunities are still there to be found.
While English is a widely spoken language the EU should reconsider the value of the romance tongues. In about a generation Hispanics will overshadow other Anglo white Americans. Mexico, one of the so called MINT nations, is also a large state whose growth can only grow. Furthermore, the Spanish speaking Philippines is also an economy which is often overlooked in the Asian region. Likewise the force of the French idiom has not lost it’s force in Canada or the rapidly accelerating economies in S.E. Asia. And let’s not forget about Brazil and some of Portugal’s former territories in an African continent still heavily dependent upon Europe. While English is essential to trade with many nations this does not mean that other languages cannot provide access to other lucrative markets where many opportunities are still there to be found.
This is up to each country to decide!!!!!!!
This is up to each country to decide!!!!!!!
Not mandatory. …we have enough rules to furnish the whole universe.
Would you english speaking countries like to have french for example as mandatory…..?
People learn english anyway. No need to impose it.
Please read the above statistics and you will understand that your statement is not correct
Not mandatory. …we have enough rules to furnish the whole universe.
Would you english speaking countries like to have french for example as mandatory…..?
People learn english anyway. No need to impose it.
Well we should include esperanto as a.Muss instead of English so no country can take an advantage out of that their language is a must. But it should be obliged a round the world.
Well we should include esperanto as a.Muss instead of English so no country can take an advantage out of that their language is a must. But it should be obliged a round the world.
No, it shouldn’t. The only language mandatory in each country should be its official languages. English should be advised because nowadays is one important language in the world. But spanish for instance will soon be more widely spoken than english. And portuguese is rappidily gaining terrain.
Why you feel this way Filipe ? Is it because you are proud and you think your own community is somewhat different from the rest of us ? FYI, this is not coming from an native English person
No, it shouldn’t. The only language mandatory in each country should be its official languages. English should be advised because nowadays is one important language in the world. But spanish for instance will soon be more widely spoken than english. And portuguese is rappidily gaining terrain.
yes
yes
.
If your using a language after English for business I would suggest Standard Chinese, Japanese or Indic
From a purely business prospective the languages of Europe should only be taken as recreational pursuits.
.
If your using a language after English for business I would suggest Standard Chinese, Japanese or Indic
From a purely business prospective the languages of Europe should only be taken as recreational pursuits.
If you want to do good business with a strong economy, learn German.
The Portuguese only serves for CPLP.
The Spanish just to hispanic America .
If you want business with China, learn Chinese.
English is good only fot IT.
If you want to do good business with a strong economy, learn German.
The Portuguese only serves for CPLP.
The Spanish just to hispanic America .
If you want business with China, learn Chinese.
English is good only fot IT.
No! The most common language in the EU and Europe is German and not English. No one has to learn English as first language. Most people in the EU are living nearby boarders. So it’s more important to learn these languages and to ease the communication in these regions.
No! The most common language in the EU and Europe is German and not English. No one has to learn English as first language. Most people in the EU are living nearby boarders. So it’s more important to learn these languages and to ease the communication in these regions.
I think so yes, it’s basic knowledge.
No. The (supposed) mantra of the EU is “United in Diversity”, and as anyone who speaks various languages knows, languages are far more than just a tool to communicate, but are vectors of culture. Making English the official language would not only go far beyond the competency of the EU, it would be leaving culture and diversity, supposedly European values, in order to promote some sort of anglo-saxon concept of”efficiency”. Thus, yet another “business” approach to a fondamental issue in the EU. It would also give a vast advantage to native english speakers (Brits and Americans) since they would de facto speak the language for which Europeans have all but abandonned their own. It would also give advantage to Europeans from the West and the North whose native languages are far closer to English than say Spanish or Croatian. It would also give an advantage to the wealthy because unlike what people who live in certain expat bubbles might believe, not EVERYONE speaks english. It would promote laziness and eventually lead to the death of other languages, because what’s the point in learning Swedish or Polish anyway if “we all speak English”? We already see that in Brussels where most EU-expats (this goes from civil servants to interns) have no intent to learn local languages, no matter how long their stay, and some actually get offended when locals do not speak English. Non, nee, no grazie.
Yes ofc.As English is the international language, to business etc
No
No, learning Croatian should be mandatory!
EU should fix the official language of its own asap. In order to reduce the costs of translation.
Actually it’s a must, if eu wishes a constitution as ‘united states of Europe’
yes
Certainly. English is currently the most spoken language by non-natives, which means that, by de facto, it is the worldwide international language. It’s not just a bonding link between European Countries and with other English speaking countries, but everyone in the world. We are currently writting here in English and we all share our thoughts in a language that everyone understands and can have discussions with. And that’s good!
Certainly I think that both the mother tongue and English should be taught in every school, and a third, optional, language, for use with neighboring countries. It’s currently done in Portugal and, although some people think it’s pointless, once you get used to the internet and international social networking, knowing AT LEAST English is completely necessary to get in touch with more than just your inmates.
The only thing I disagree with is that learning English on a school as a 1rst foreign language is currently recognized only locally. It has no international recognition. I worked hard to have near perfect score at the end of 7 years of study in English and it’s sad to know that outside of Portugal my qualifications are not recognized, having to do an IELTS exam to have any sort of recognition of my level of English. I think that students can and should do an IELTS at school as their last English Test, to have their qualifications recognized worldwide, so that they can assure confidence on their performance if there’s ever the possibility of working abroad.
sure , because it is very easy and pure language.
Yes. English, French and Spanish
What about if we recover Esperanto? It’s been parked now for a long time.
no doubts about that,
China is the biggest country in the world ( chinese language is obviously used in it), then german is the most spoken motherlanguage in EU. Still none of these two examples can for the moment challenge english usage in the EU. The first one because not all people want to go to China to live, and the second one (I speak german so I personally wouldn’t have any problem, and for more I like it better than english) because the gap that an eventual retreat of english laguage from the EU scene would leave, it will cause a lot of troubles with chosing another main EU language, troubles coming moslty from inferiority/superiority complexes among people of the biggest EU countries (we all have heared abou them). So seems easier to keep english, which for more will still be the international language (two in one).
As far as the EU realm is concerned German and French offer incredible versatility when it comes to education, trade and commerce. However, one should never underestimate the value of ANY language. There was a time not to long ago when my parents were urging me to learn Japanese to prepare for the imminent Japanese surpassing of the US. Oh yes, we believed! Despite its size and in spite of its problems in recent years this hasn’t stopped people from learning a language only spoken by one still reasonably influential nation in the world. While all eyes have been on China in recent years which is understandable given its size and influence it has nevertheless amazed me to see the number of people enrolling to study Korean at various language colleges where i live. Interestingly, here in New Zealand, where I’ve been working, many people have advised me that vocational doors literally fly open when you can demonstrate that you speak Maori and official language along with English but spoken by perhaps as little as 5% of the population. Perhaps its not a very useful language outside of NZ but inside of it, wow you can literally pick your post of preference many those who do not possess it cannot largely because European Kiwis still prefer to see their sons or daughters studying a continental tongue for cultural, historical and also economical reasons i guess. It is still commendable but there would certainly be no harm and much more to gain if they chose Maori instead. So less common languages should not be written off as irrelevant whether they be Czech, Danish, Finn or any one of the other Unity in Diversity languages.
Just because an ethnic groups numbers are small that doesn’t mean that their influence will also be. Returning to Europe, given the origins of the EU, i think that the Franco_Germanic language should certainly be the major tongues of the continent and to give English the place of prominence would be an insult. That certainly doesn’t mean that knowing English serve as an asset to you. My point is to keep your options open. Most of the world has been infected for better or for worse with a European language. And it is not always the English one.
We Need pur in language besides the local ones. What makes more sense than Latin!? But school needs to be the same across the Union.
No
Yes.We are writing in english right now….So,it’s obvious.
YES!
Name one member state that does not have this requirement.
YES
.
Great Britain is the most cosmopolitan nation on the planet & we appreciate other cultures for what they are so the idea of all the countries of Europe adopting English is counter to our principle of individuality & ‘diversity’.
Please don’t allow the EU elite to force English on you as the (their) official language of the EU, you will all lose your identity if you do..
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/553241/80-per-cent-Britons-leave-EU-poll-reveal
I love ENGLISH…
I don’t
Neither do I. It’s so irregular. Especially the spelling; it’s a pain in the neck even for native speakers!
The question is completely rhetoric. Most of the educated youth in Europe speaks English and thinks in English, while most probably, speaking two or three other languages. This makes us, the Europeans, a prized commodity around the world. The idea that, English belongs to Britain is overdue, and people need to understand that the new English is the language of everyone, in Europe for now, and in the rest of the world, in the close future.
No!!! There are other, more beautiful ones and even more spoken in the EU languages that I will prefer. And if GB leaves the union, it would be a dead language, only spoken by people, who don’t have English as their mother tongue.I don’t wish nor hope that the GB does so, but in case that they do, I will say “peace be with them and goodby to every interest that I and others might have had for this country” Glorious past, which they try to reestablish, but they will have non of this glory. They will be the outskirts of Europa, which can very well manage without this narcissist country.
@Lars Jorgensen
FYI Ireland speaks English BTW.
It would be a good idea for any culture to adopt a bi-lingual focus within an existing, successful, educational system. English is the lingua franca and would seem the obvious candidate but a case can also be made for emerging languages which clearly dominate large regions. If the students are fully functional and there is room in the curriculum, go for it!
YES. English is easier, however French sounds better
Easier? To what? Not phonetic spelling. More than 1000 phrasal verbs. Thousands of idioms. Huge, irregular vocabulary with doubled, tripled entries.
Yes Ivan, i did indeed answer in English :) i suppose because the question was addressed in it and because most people were answering in it lol. I had no intention in devaluing the significance of speaking, writing, reading or listening in this language. However, i do not feel that one is any more cultured for knowing English over other equally valuable and precious tongues. There is a lot of knowledge out there and while a lot of it is presented in English this does not mean that other cultures and their words lack sophistication and importance. You may learn a lot about the world through English but you’ll appreciate it even more if you can feel it through the sounds and words of another culture. Haere pai atu, hoki pai mai (travel safely/take care).
@Lars Jorgensen
FYI Ireland speaks English BTW.
And the reason is?
What is the goal?
The objective?
The benefit and to whom?
Let us not create rules just for the sake or regulating!
Before I vote yes or no I want to know why we need this rule and what for. I want the answers to my questions above.
Yes.
You would think most would want to. Just make it available for them. Don’t force the issue.
Yes. And Greek as optional :)
Yes!
Het!
apprende le franais, deusch lernen, aprender a lingua portuguesa,….. and many more.;-) the linguistical treasure of europe ;-)
European Union has bigger problems than this at the moment but if you are asking me I say no! I speak 5 languages not because I was obligated to study them but because I enjoyed doing it!
absolutely, i would say keep the integrity of your language to keep your national identity, but most launguages are bastardised and only have less than 1/2 its individual core and it is nice to have a common new core (2 cores) so we can all be closer with and learn from each other, especially in europe, isn’t easier to learn 2 languages rather than 28. some media is very open bringing the best of europe together, whilst some countries are still behind excommunist curtains where language is used to keep news from europe out and have them only integrating with neighbours, therefore moving forward toooo slowly for the countries own good if one wants to evolve into the world and not just the world of Me.
English, and another two languages at least. British included so they might start to understand what the EU is all about.
Yes! for all!
Speak for yourself. Should be: yes! for me! I prefer Esperanto (for me too).
English, Chinese, Arabic, Spanish. But sure, AT LEAST English. It would be irresponsible not to.
English is spoken by millions of people everywbere. If you know show to speak English you can comunicaste oito almost everyone. So I think English should bem mandatory.
This is simply not true. Only 8% of EU citizens have a very good knowledge of English. i.e. would be comfortable in political debates in the language. Many know some words and phrases in English, but that kind of communication is very basis. And a majority of the human race does not speak English, and never will, in my humble opinion.
That question is a very difficult one.Because one can not just write an answer without having to think about the history of english as a universal language,the influence of the UK in world politics,economy,common wealth,slavery,the EU,etc.Why not German,or French?Or why not even all languages the EU member states officia speaklAnother food for thought is…The UK or England is not so commited to this Europian project!They dont use the Euro,most of their Reps. in the EP.are working against the Europian dreams just like …Pen in France and some others in Germany etc.They feel like leaving the EU.when countries like Germany,France,Spain etc.are doing all it takes to make sure this great EU project works.Why is Germany to blame or thanked if the EU works or fails when a super power like the UK is also a strong member?Because……..And here we are,faced with this question of English.With due respect to the language and the people,I would say lets find the solutions to Greece’s problems,Isis,poverty in the EU,Education,Terror,Paris,etc. than this language and culture debate for now.
Who is suggesting these ridiculous questions?
hi great go eu johnb.
Bene
As a proud european, I think that is a bad idea. English is already spoken by the majority of the younger people in europe. For that reason, why would it be necessary to make it a compulsory language?
mais bien sur!
?????? ?? ???????…
Yes, absolutely!
I hope you mean: absolutely not!
Europe is more than the sum of its parts precisely because of its cultural and linguistic richness and diversity. We should all learn other languages, aside from English, which is already the international norm.
YES, english as a every body second langage.
No, it is certainly not!
2 friends are sitting in a park on a hot summer day somewhere in Athens.Suddenly approaches them a tourist who wanted some directions: “do you speak english?” he asks.The 2 friends look at him wondering what had he said.”Sprechen Sie Deutsch?”, asks again.No reaction by the 2 men.”Parla italiano?”,”Habla Espanol?”, “Francais?”. NOTHING. The tourist whispers something and goes away. One of the friends says then to the other: “See?? We should have learned a couple of languages.We would have understand the poor guy”.And the other man replies:”I saw him who spoke 5 what did he come up with!!!!!!”
I also agree that there should not be only one official language in the EU. Every country as well as every culture have the right to have their own language as an official language of the EU.
Yes, because would provide a natural and easy way for people to comunicate.
English is one of the most-spoken languages in Europe and obviously people need to learn it. But English isn’t a neutral language. Indeed, those who have English as native language would be advantaged since they know this language better than anyone. So the official language, if there must be one, must be neutral, such as Esperanto.
@Maëva
Only a few thousand naive zealots speak
DEsperanto and thus obviously people do NOT need to learn such a basket-case language.Esperanto is NOT a neutral language, it is a political and biased [toward Romance languages] construct that has the emotional attractiveness of hexadecimal and offers a lesser cultural attribution than Klingon.
With POLITICAL UNION comes LANGUAGE UNION – one people, one language and that language is English.
@Tarquin Farquhar
I don’t understand why you are so hostile to Esperanto, even though you obviously know nothing about it.
“biased [toward Romance languages]”
Esperanto is much less Romance than you think. In my experience the pronunciation and the grammar are easier for Slovaks than for French speakers, for instance. I have used Esperanto with people from almost every EU country (including Hungarians, whose language is very different from other European languages), Esperanto was easy for all of them.
“that has the emotional attractiveness of hexadecimal and offers a lesser cultural attribution than Klingon.”
This is a ridiculous claim. More than a century of use has proven that you can use Esperanto to write poetry and express love. It has as much “emotional attractiveness” as any language.
“With POLITICAL UNION comes LANGUAGE UNION – one people, one language and that language is English.”
Your claims that “Esperanto is biased” are hypocritical – isn’t English biased? Seriously?! The “bias” of Esperanto is neglibible compared to the use of one single national language. I don’t see why the speakers of one language should be given an immense privilege and have disproportionate influence, and I don’t want to live in America 2.0.
@M. D.
LOL! If English is biased then ALL natural languages are biased! Your logic is flawed, funny and febrile.
Furthermore, English is a multi-national language, indeed it’s a world language spoken by more people than any other language on the planet.
Esperanto IS biased – do some research for proof and STOP ignoring the facts
Methinks you are a bit of a lingofascist – please add that neologism to your rather thin Esperanto ‘dicktionary’.
Let Darwinism run its course and stop trying to FOIST upon the world a BIASED and ARTIFICIAL plastic language like Esperanto; with each generation, lesser languages [like some in the EU unfortunately] will change/die – however, just as genes retain DNA fragments from millennia ago, so too will English contain fragments of the changed/expired languages as it has done throughout its existence.
@Tarquin Farquhar
I don’t even know what to respond because you make no sense at all.
@M.D.
If you spent more time learning English and NOT
DEsperanto then maybe you could have understood my postings.No. English is the main language in the EU , it’s a fact , but we think that it’s important to carry on speaking other languages because it’s the culture of each country and these differences make up the identity of the EU
nope
As well as French, Slavonic, German, Greek …. too many. Variety is needed not sameness.
Even if we decide that English must not be the only official language, English is being actually the common language of the Union because of its global preeminence, as it is the only language which is taught in all schools of Europe. But we must consider which would be de consequences of the fact of being English the common language. It seems to me that this situation would make it difficult for people to feel themselves European. Of course if we think from individual point of view, a person goes to Ebglish because of its world hegemony, but for Europe it would be a good investment to have its own and common language.
@Guillem P.
What ‘incontinent’-alist poppycock!
British people are European too I believe.
Yes to can, no to should.
What a silly question, which part of In Varietate Concordia you don’t understand?
Yes! Makes perfect sense! English is relatively easy to learn and is the worldwide dominant language for business. It would make working and business easier across European countries.
relatively to what? Chinese?
No, English should be the second language of Europe and used in situations where neither party speaks the others first language. Taking decisions like this would cotinue to strip Europe of its real identity, which is a continent of diversity, and would premote the idea that we are all one country. We are not
Absolutely not, there are 2 Anglophone nations in the EU, the biggest even considering an exit from the EU. Christos says that everyone should learn English as a 2nd language so that e.g. if a Greek person moves to Hungary they can get a job! How absurd! That would give a vast advantage to English speakers plus make them lazy and reluctant to integrate. Thank God this will never happen as France will never accept it and neither will Spain, which has 500 million speakers of its own language. Only a small percentage of the people in the EU are English speakers so English is punching well beyond its weight. We need linguistic diversity. Knowing a language enriches a person, helps them see the world from another perspective and aids intercultural understanding.
Actually – I understood that the main questiosn to see if Europe would benefit from one common language. I know that English is being proposed – but it could be any language – the idea is to find a common one to ease day-to-day life, work, transactions, business and so on. Diversity in languges is brilliant and should always be promoted. Having an easier way to communicate with each other – that would be brilliant.
On another note, I understand that France and Spain would have a problem with English being forced into thier societ; as would we here in Belgium. But, the world is heading that way anyway, so it may just happen with or without our approval.
Most of those favouring English, I notice, are those who speak minority languages. I don´t notice, like myself, many Spaniards or Francophones.
My favorite would be Dutch, there is lot of similarities to other European languages.
Lots of similar words with English, German, Scandinavian and even french languages.. So Dutch would be my choice, only thing what should be changed is the spelling. Those throat g-s and else… Spell how you write it and this would be perfect.
If we are to choose a common language to use within Europe, it should also be one that can be used in all Regions of the world. And, having a common langauge does not mean that all other EU languages are not important – they are. But life would be a little smoother if we shared one common way to communicate within Europe and, with the rest of the world.
At my point of view, it’s so important to be able to communicate with people all over the world. How should globalization and multinational teamwork take place without a common language? So I think English should be taught every european child since primary school, to give young people a chance to advance an opinion all around the globe. Nevertheless I don’t like the idea of English as the only official language of the EU. If English would be the only official language, it would be kind of uprated compared to all the other languages. Tongue is always about culture too and for me it’s a little downgrade for all the other countries if we would call English the ONLY official language.
All in all I just want to say that English should be taught everywhere to have a possibility of international communication and of course it should be an official language of the EU, but all the other languages shouldn’t be subjected to it.
I think English is already the international language and it wouldn’t be logical to make an European language. Why should all Europeans learn Esperanto? The important fact is, that English is the language of the internet. Everything is in English: tutorials, videos, all kind of debates, etc. You won’t come far with for example German and Esperanto on the internet. You’ll just be able to communicate with Europeans but not with Americans or Asians or people from other continents, and what’s the point of that? If that happens, a lot of forums will be made just for Europeans in Esperanto and other forums would be in English. Through globalization we can easily talk to people in Canada or Australia and learn about their lives and cultures, how they see the world from their perspective and what they think about Europe. I also can’t imagine how some people in Europe still speak only their language. Do they never use the Internet?
In Sweden everyone already learns English because Sweden’s population is too small to translate movies and TV shows from English to Swedish. I think that’s really helpful for the children over there to learn English, and this is probably not just in Sweden, there are a lot of small countries in Europe.
I think Europe would maybe unite with Esperanto as a language all Europeans speak, but on the contrary, they would isolate themselves from the rest of the world. With the internet, globalization has made a really big step and that’s the reason why I think everyone should learn English as their first foreign language. If everyone speaks English, you can travel wherever you want and communicate with everyone there without any language barriers. Of course, it’s cool to learn the language of that country, but if you learn, for example Italian, you would be able to communicate with others in Italy and a small portion of people around the world.
These days it’s not practical to express yourself to the whole world unless you speak English. It’s (at least in my experience) an easy language to learn in comparison to other languages like french (uhh, school) and we have had English as the world language for many years. Who is going to translate the internet to Esperanto for all the europeans? My world would be very limited without understanding English, the global language.
Why do you say that, on the internet, you can communicate in Esperanto only with Europeans? In my experience of Esperanto chat rooms, Brazilians seem to be the majority (at least outnumbering any other single group), followed by Americans. I’ve also met several Asians, as well as Europeans. Of course chat rooms are not a reliable indicator of the overall demographic, but I think it is significant that most of the users are from the Americas, not Europe, although there are plenty from there too.
Let’s get the question of the Esperanto out of the way first. I am only going to say that Esperanto was created in 1887 and to this date more people learn Chinese in one year than Esperanto, and Chinese is a very difficult language to learn while Esperanto is tooted as the easier one.
Presently there are over 500 million speakers of the English language, only outnumbered by the number of Chinese speakers. The other eight languages in decreasing order of speakers are:
Hindustani, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Bengali, Portuguese, Malay-Indonesia and French.
Now let’s be honest! The only practical alternatives to the generalization and adoption of English as the World (and European) language would be Mandarin or Spanish. Who wants to learn Hindustani when more people speak English in India than any other local language.
Mandarin is way to difficult, lacks an alphabet and a person needs to learn between 5 to 10 thousand symbols to be considered well educated. Spanish is not as difficult as Chinese but still more difficult to learn than English. Just from a practical point of view English is way ahead of any other language.
The question is not if ENGLISH is being imposed on the rest of us by the capitalistic expansionism the USA/UK business conglomerate but, and that is a really big but, are we interested in creating a WORLD in which all people can understand each other and have the same opportunities of individual development and progress? Is there any other language out there that is as democratically represented as English is? The opposition to the adoption of English as a European (or of the World for that matter) unifying language is more based on political resentment than in practical considerations.
Business, financial and scientific information is disseminated and published more often in English than in any other language and the only market larger than the English speaking one is the Chinese. Does Esperanto compare? Any other language?
The way I see it is that no matter what the reasons of the spread of English in the World, presently, it is the most prevalent, spoken and understood language in the World and besides not being and overly difficult language to learn, it will be the best and easier choice from a practical standpoint.
The idea is not English as “the Language of the World” but just to use it in addition to any native language, representative of the local culture and traditions. It is not to “rob” people of their history and customs but simply give them a new tool to use in bridging differences, not creating them, to provide a means of understanding and basis of World Peace. Let’s not forget that the USA is a country of immigrants, most countries and their cultures are represented in their present population.
Nothing to do with politics and everything to do with creating a better World.
Mi vere ŝatus ellerni la ĉinan [mandarenan] lingvon kaj mi studas ĝin ekde multaj jaroj. Mi komenĉis kiam mi estis studento ĉe Univeristy of Pittsburgh. Sed politiko estas la stumblilo de la instruado de la ĉina: Ekzsitas DU skribsistemoj – la malnova kaj la nova. Pro politikaj kialoj, kelkaj landoj preferas la malnovan (Tajvano, Singaporo, Hongkongo, ktp). Multaj enmigrantaj ĉinaj en Usono ankaŭ nur uzas la malnovan. Ankaŭ ekzistas diversaj latinliterumoj: Wades-Giles, Pinyin, tajvana, Yale-a, ktp. Krom tio ekzistas diversaj sistemoj por serĉi mandarenajn vortojn en vortaro KAJ la instruistoj ĉiuj insistas ke SIA elpparolo estas la korekta. Frenezigas min. Mi vere ne povas esprimi KIOM DA HOROJ mi jam studis la ĉinan skribadon sed ankoraŭ mi apenaŭ povas legi. Se mi ne multe legas, mia vortprovizo ne kreskas. Jen la problemo. Beiĵingo devus trudigi al ĉiuj ununuran sistemon. Eduksistemoj, kiel tiu de Usono, devus apudlasi la politikon kaj instrui NUR la beiĵingan dialekton. Jam tio estas giganta laboro. Post la lernado de la baza lingvo, oni povus uzi tempon por lerni la malnovan skribmanieron, la kromajn dialektojn, ktp. Kion vi opinias pri tio?
It is clear that the European Union will never allow to impose the language of any member state as the only official language of Europe, no matter how dominant that language is in Europe or even in the rest of the world. In other words, the EU Commission does not recognize a language as international by its dominant position. A language with dominant position is just a dominant language, not an international one. History confirms that dominant languages are the main reason of the extinction of languages. This is why the EU Commission promotes linguistic diversity, to protect endangered languages. Behind every language, there is culture, knowledge, people living out their lives. Let us never forget that.
Back to the question: Should English be the only official language of the EU? My answer is no, I support the position of the EU Commission that no national language should be, let alone one dominant. In any case, it should be a truly international language, one that is suited for communication among people from different nations, one that respects linguistic diversity. No national language fulfills those requirements.
Yeah, why not? And while we’re at it, lets all abandon our nationalities and our national identities.
diplomacy international recomended use french.
ingles is for bussines.
Yes, since large majority of people speak English in EU and translating to every language costs EU 1 billion a year
Greek
No!!!
That reminds me of the original british House of Cards.The PM in that show wanted the same.Anyway back to the point.I don’t see why not.If by official we mean the language of governance,not our everyday transactions,then this should be a welcome change.Translating everything in 20+ languages is far from practical.
This debate ist albern, naturalmente no!
Greek to be the second one.
Yeah, I think so
Of course NO!
This debate is silly. :P
As a native english speaker… Of course not!
Yes
NO!
saint seiya was a saint.
NO!
WTF, britain should not even be in the EU.
yes
definitely not
Nope. People will learn what they want to learn. Simply, if a business person in Romania doesn’t want to learn it or hire someone who does, then they must be willing to lose the business.
are you serious? to ask such a question
Espanol
It would save a lot of money in translation costs, but then accessibility to non-English speaking citizens would be impaired. Perhaps a solution would be to have a number of core languages, as the UN does, and to translate documents into other languages on demand?
No official language. NONE
Nope. People will learn what they want to learn. Simply, if a business person in Romania doesn’t want to learn it or hire someone who does, then they must be willing to lose the business.
Claro que sim!!! Desta forma, os Britnicos no tm necessidade de aprender lnguas. Easy boy!!!
NO !!!
I disagree. Also because English is the official language of a EU member which might be soon out. So 300 million would speak a language which is not the official one of any EU country. Silly
Yes it should. I will lower the bureaucracy and remove the payments to thousands of translators – therefore reducing the buget, which is enourmous enough.
why English ? and not German ?
Lets also withdraw all numbers over 100 and eat only apples and oranges till the end of time. Oversimplification for the sake of standardization and economic efficiency. Disgusting.
It should be like in Russia, Russian State, but each republic says in his own language! If the EU is Russia copy, just let joins her! :D
No grazie
No, non, nein, ne, ingen, geen, ei, oxi, nincs, ebda, nie, nao and nu. How could you stay true to your motto of “united in diversity” if one language was promoted above others?
English already IS the official language in EU.
and why debate on that ? Its the best instrument, we can comunicate, we all speak it, better or worse, and the name of the language is not that relevant……like Great Will said ” a name, a name, what s in a name ?,….by which we call a rose, wouldn t it smell as sweet ?!
No, non, nein, ne, ingen, geen, ei, oxi, nincs, ebda, nie, nao and nu. How could you stay true to your motto of “united in diversity” if one language was promoted above others?
Non, merci, nee, dank u, Nein, Danke, No, grazie, no, gracias, +++++++
Le Franais comme langue de l’UE.
nope
YES IT SHOULD
No, it shoudn’t !
No
Greeks for universities scolia are importand because is the basis of theory maths fysiki grsms iatriki architectoniki but in greece we prepare universities for special studies of filologia. All the countries has their own value and personality but the Oxfords study became…euro war and money….for europeans
Yes
Definitely it should.
No, Esperanto yes.
NOOOOO!!!!!!
No it should be the three biggest one
And English is not among them
No
No of course ! Diversity of languages is a force for the Union !
Wieso gerade Englisch? Wieso lsst man die Brger nicht einfach abstimmen, welche Sprache sie haben wollen? Wre demokratisch und einfach.
Yes,because is the international language de facto.
No. Bulgarian should be :-)
Article 22 of the EU Fundamental Rights Charter: ?The Union shall respect cultural, religious and linguistic diversity?. #Catalonia #SelfDetermination #Time4sd
Why, England wants to leave the EU? The official language should be a language of a member country!
Yes !
~ Could be! ~ Yes!
No!
em Bom Portugus: NO CARAGO!!!!!!!
I wrote England because as far as I am aware Scotland and Ireland, I don’t about Wales, all want to stay in the EU! May everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I’llwrite whatever I want!
Yes but only once English becomes official language from early childhood at school…It can be done, my sons fully trilingual…
no – diversity makes Europe strong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, this position belongs to French :D
Yes. Of course. It would be great for everyone
No!
Yes please, it’d be a productive step towards federalism!
Yes!
Yes. It helps us move forward together. But the government should be taken some steps for learning English as a good user minimum and the Britain is first they should take more responsibilities.
Of course !
no, England is not even fully in the EU except for what it likes to .
of course not
Aitor
Aitor
Should Spanish become the only official language in Spain? Should French become the only official language in Belgium? Should English become the only official language in Canada?
The EU is not a country (it is an international organization), and even if it were, the presence of many official languages happens all over the world: Spain, Canada, Belgium, Belarus, Cyprus, etc.
Why should a country or a community of contries have a single language? What’s wrong with cultural diversity?
Should Spanish become the only official language in Spain? Should French become the only official language in Belgium? Should English become the only official language in Canada?
The EU is not a country (it is an international organization), and even if it were, the presence of many official languages happens all over the world: Spain, Canada, Belgium, Belarus, Cyprus, etc.
Why should a country or a community of contries have a single language? What’s wrong with cultural diversity?
If using english we can reduce burocracy, i think this will be a good idea and all eu politicians should be forced to learn english! Its the world language! I respect all the languages but we have to acept the fact of the english leadership!
If using english we can reduce burocracy, i think this will be a good idea and all eu politicians should be forced to learn english! Its the world language! I respect all the languages but we have to acept the fact of the english leadership!
No te das cuenta de que los que están a favor del inglés como lengua comunitaria son los que hablan idiomas poco difundidos. Nuestra lengua la hablan 500 millones pero por poner un ejemplo, el lituano (y muchos más) lo hablan cuatro personas.
Yes, yes and yes! It is just number, economic numbers. You can dance, drink wine or play jockey in any language, but then use only one language to do business. It is efficient and saves a lot of time and money.
PhilipII, si por nuestra lengua te refieres al Español, yo creo que si existe la posibilidad de que pudiera convertirse en el idioma mundial, a pesar de que todos los países que los hablan se creen en el derecho de arruinarlo, o al menos hacerlo diferente a los otros países hispano hablantes. Pero aún así tiene un gran rival en el Chino, y éste lo hablan más de 900 millones. Hay mucho más dinero en China que en todos los países hispano parlantes combinados. Los españoles se han vuelto minoría, y los demás compiten a ver quien lo cambia más. Y por favor no me digan que esto no se trata de dinero porque es precisamente eso lo que determinará quien gana. La gente aprende idiomas por las razones más variadas, pero la mayoría aprende Inglés por un futuro mejor, mejor trabajo, más dinero.
No
No
English should be the only official language in the world, ( de facto english language is ) not just in EU.
English should be the only official language in the world, ( de facto english language is ) not just in EU.
Greek should be the second.It is the basis(????) of every language ,all scientific terms are greek ,even the word Europe(E?????) is greek…Actually hellenic(????????)…
Greek should be the second.It is the basis(????) of every language ,all scientific terms are greek ,even the word Europe(E?????) is greek…Actually hellenic(????????)…
Limited communication is a barrier. Not only does it affect business, but it also leads to intolerance and ignorance which leads to racism and homophobia in a multicultural environment. The Russians are learning English, and so are the Chinese – ask them why. Pride and nationalism have delayed the EU making a decision which should have been made years ago. It’s too late now. EU people are making their own common language decisions to be able to progress (job wise) and make the most of what the EU28 can offer. It’s not a question of “should English”, it’s rather a personal question of “should I”. The less politicians get involved in this discussion, the better. Rather call it a “common” language, as opposed to an “official” language. EU28 are one, it’s time to start acting and thinking as one. A common language is a good place to start and the people know that.
Yes
Yes
It’s a pointless question. English already is ‘the’ language of your EU, at least you will have something to remember us by when we leave.
It’s a pointless question. English already is ‘the’ language of your EU, at least you will have something to remember us by when we leave.
What about my POMAKISTAN language
What about my POMAKISTAN language
No doubt!
No doubt!
Nein. Dazu msste Grobritannien erst mal mehr tun fr die EU als ein Mitglied der EU.
Nein. Dazu msste Grobritannien erst mal mehr tun fr die EU als ein Mitglied der EU.
Noo
yes
No, it is right as it is, all member states language official! English is and should remain the most widely spoken language because is the easiest, however not very cultural ad Italian or French..
Why?
Well, no. If you work in Brussel, you will soon find that EUROPE means 24 languages. We probably should think of reducing the translation work for the different papers and choose to translate only those which are a legal source (soft or hard law). But, still, the EU institutions represent 28 countries, 24 languages. Choosing english as an only language would just achieve the breach between the EU and its citizens. Citizen usually don’t understand the way the EU works, and what it does or not. What if they even can’t rely on papers and website they can read ? One language for Europe could be eventually possible, if and if only, all european citizens would be able to speak and understand this language. Is it so now ? Not at all. Asking such a question, set the probleme of connections between people and the languages teaching at school. How do the Member States actually formed their futur citizen to the EU languages so that they can use the Single Market facilites and the freedom of workers ? Besides, how funny would it be that the common language for the EU would be the one of the country that have threaten to quit for many years and which fight against more integration ? By the way, why english ? If you count the figures, german is an official languages in several countries, which is not the case for english. Why not french ? The EU idea comes from a french man after all.
No.. the more languages one knows the better.
likes are appreciated https://www.facebook.com/European Dog Adoption Center / Europejskie Centrum Adopcji Psw
No.
Why? There are more countries and people speaking French.
No. I like how it is now. Also in india there are 22 official languages. Btw german is the Most spoken language by Mother tongue.
Per la storia che abbiamo, dovrebbe essere l’italiano.
And should We really have english a an official language, even after the uk finally leaves?
Yes, and we will be sending you an invoice.
No
It should be the second language after the national language of each country.
Absolutely not. Why should we limit on organisation to just one language, when we have this wealth of expressions and cultures right at our fingertips?
Nothing against a single working language but official?!? EU recognizes cultural diversity in member-states: language is a fundamental tool.
French
Of course not :-) multilingualism is enriching.
Yes, I think is appropriate decision!
German is the most spoken mother tongue language in Europe: all Germany, all of Austria, most of Switzerland and a small part of Italy and probably other border regions i don’t know about. Just the German population is greater than the UK (by official measure). Additionally, making English the official language makes it easier for people from the EU to work in the UK, but not the other way around. If I want to work in other countries in the EU, I wouldn’t get very far without a good knowledge of the language
Engelskan r det lttaste sprk att lra sig
NO!!!
No.
NO, NO, NO – if anything, English should be warped into the Dustbin as it has zero mid England or his History to do.
100% -Yes!Small 1,8 Latvia with 300000 Stateless used about 50 interpreters in EU with monthly wage about 5000 Euros each = about 3 millions annually! What for?
Hey, what’s wrong with paying people who know how to speak languages at a high level? You make it sound like they are trying to get over on the system. Interpreters have trained, just like attorneys, just like economists, and they are specialists. Why are you so upset by their salary? Those interpreters have been around for decades and were there when many diplomats didn’t speak the same language. Most delegates still sound a bit rough around the edges when speaking English. An interpreter allows Russians to speak in their language, and have their message conveyed professionally in English. That takes skill and they are paid for that skill. Trying to save money by firing all the interpreters sounds like a you want to make them the scapegoat for all of the EU’s financial problems.
I am French, and I say “yes”, I am willing to give up my native language to have an official and common language in Europe. Esperanto would be better but English is fine too.:)
Are you sure you don’t want to give up French because you think English is a more prestigious language? Many foreigners feel there’s a prestige that comes with speaking English, as if they are moving up the socioeconomic ladder of success. Actually, French is quite a prestigious language still. French, German, Russian, SPANISH for crying out loud (spoken by a major portion of the world, yet neglected on this feed), are all languages that carry and enormous level of prestige. So hang on to French. It’s a beautiful language anyway.
should be hebrew , for there is no disagreement;)
We should exchange English to Esperanto so ont one country can get a native advantage over others
A true europeen language in OUR UNION will be a blend of all europeen languages…
I believe there MUST BE MORE THAN ONE official language. We should be promoting all the languages of the Union. What is the point otherwise????
The only working language, yes. The only official language, no.
Do you mean american? The same thing as european?
German
Of course no!
Of course no!!!
yes
YES.
Yes. But: Great Britain has to promise to be a member auf the EU for the next fifty years. And, Great Britain should pay as much as France or Germany are paying. Otherwise: NO!
Yes.
Why not Spanish? ? For English Noooooooo. Why English when British have different status as a member of EU..
YES!
No there should be 24 languages as they are already and English to .be the first one anon the equals while is more popular comparing to Spanish Portuguese Greek or Italien for example
No every language has its own history we must help each other while never forgetting who we are. I would never in life want such thing, there are so many beautiful languages in EU is what makes this continent unique besides all our differences we still “help” one another. Besides losing portuguese would be a shame since its one of the most beautiful languages in the whole world .
No. No. Porque no o latim?
The basis of the eu is diversity. Shouldn’t we cherish it ?
Croatian should be!
And…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNAwEpOkC0
The French are not be able to learn another language…
It is a rather idiotic idea to put out here. We tried already once to enforce a single mentality on Europeans, and we know where that lad to. No, I’m not speaking about totalitarian regimes, I’m speaking about the ??? … :S
No!
Claudia Soppelsa
We should speak dalmatian! ;)
Yes
NO! That means giving preference to a specific language group. English could be a work language but an official european language, just for documents, could be Latin which is european and belongs to all and none at the same time!
No, I don’t think so!
No….If we need a work language let’s use Esperanto which is easier to learn and use than Latin or even English and does not belong to one culture.
Actually it is….what’s the problem????
The language of the country with the least homeless should be the official one for the E.U
Latin
Europe=?????? Greek word btw more than half vocabulary of UK is Greek(slung not included)the other half Latin&Early Germanic combination.It’s the most common and easy language to communicate…but that fact doesn’t make it official!
That’s fantastic for british lads as they can remain lazy by making others learn english whereas they don’t have any interest in learning any other language.
I forgot. Spanish is talked by almost 500 mill people in the world. Lets try to learn it. Language for travelling!
nooo!
at first glance it looks to make things easier. But people are entitled to learn about the law in their own language. That means that your question is an academic one.
No
German And French.
United in diversity? Personally I wouldn’t give anything to the English at this time owing to their europhobic counterproductive attitudes
No
This does not make sense, the official languages are the 28 of the 28 memeber states and that is how it should be. Nontheless english, is already “spoken” european wide, especially at the EU level, so there is no need in having a unique eu language, however, i would not mind having a European official language also called by some as “Europanto” and it would be somehting like this: “Si no comprende este compte de Nol, no panic: este perfectly normal. Er ist crit in der erste overeuropese tongue: the Europanto. Europanto ist 42% English, 38% French, 15% le rest van de UE tonguen und 5% mixed fantasia mots out from Latin, unlikely-old-Greek et mucho rude Italian jurones.” It would basically be the “result” of the mix of the 28 (and counting) languages in the EU, if there is to be an official language then EUROPANTO is the way to go! :)
its discriminate NO
Hell no, that would be killing Europe. Just a reminder that huge nations like India or South-Africa have established several official languages.
No!
Latin, and regionally whateever state/region you’re in
Maarten Buning
Yes .Yes . Yes……
People who say yes don’t have a clue about what the European integration process means
No
This is definitely needed. I’d say it’s best to start with business related issues, that’s where English is mostly used. Think of allowing business to draw up their statutory documents, annual returns/accounts, etc in English as a choice.
I seem to remember that Ireland at a certain time introduced English as a 2nd official language. How did they do that and what were the effects? Nowadays every Irish person speaks English for sure, for as far as I know.
You are correct that every Irish person speaks English fluently. It was imposed by centuries of colonisation. The first laws against the Irish language, the “Statutes of Kilkenny”, were passed in 1366. The uncontrolled spread of English is a real danger to diversity. And that is why we need Esperanto.
Ez
Absolutely NO, every language represents the culture of the country,it has a history and we should not destroy thinings overnight which took centuriew to develop.
No, obviously not.
No
Let’s keep on wondering for the next ten years! ok?
No!
Latin should be :). This way no one will have grounds to object that a Member State is advantaged be using its current language. And considering the history..
Esperanto
I don’t see why we need an official language. The US has no official language, and they’re a full time federation, while we’re only one third of the way through. English should probably become a requirement in all EU institutions, and anything of interest to a given area within the EU should be written in English as well as the local language(s), but exclusion of the other European languages really is quite pointless. It would even probably inflame right wing extremists everywhere, as well as supply them with an endless stream of populist arguments about their culture being robbed by the evil EU bureaucrats.
Definitely yes
Since the EU is a creation from the Anglo Saxon banksters “elite” of Wall Street, that would obviously be logical!! :D
Yes
Yes even if in Europe German is much more spoken. Anyway English is also the infotelematic language so as it is easier to learn than any other language it wold be better to concentrate on it only
Yes
I think such a move would meet with far too much resistance today, from governments as well as from most of the continent’s population, though in a generation it might be accepted a lot easier. I do not look forward to that prospect. In the long term, say a couple of centuries, I’m quite sure we would become roughly a monoculture. Just look at a historical case like Ireland for proof. This would not just be boring, or a loss of something of only sentimental value. Languages are not just equivalent ways of transferring the same information, they create different world views with different starting assumptions, that make different associations and reason and express differently. They cause us to experience life and the universe differently. What we would miss out on because of that loss of different perspectives is impossible to say, but I would rather not take such a colossal risk. And as for all this talk of “let’s be honest”, “let’s be practical” – if we are going to undertake the mission of changing the education and political systems across the entire continent to favour English, why is it so much more difficult to envision the politically far less contentious and culturally far less risky alternative? Esperanto. No-one speaks it yet? Well not even English will be established as a truly common language for decades to come – this is necessarily a long term project. It can be learned in a fraction of the time, and would create a level playing field for professions, academia and science. It comes with no baggage and is designed to work as an auxiliary second language, not an invasive acculturator which natural languages such as English inevitably are. Look up the “Grin report” for a scholarly argument as to Esperanto’s practical advantages. I say all this as a native English speaker and teacher of the language.
As another native English speaker, I completely agree with John Parle.
No, it should not. BUT, more must be invested in schools all over the EU for teaching english, so that the linguistic diversity is kept intact, without affecting the european citizen’s ability to work in other member states than their own.
Cultural diversity is the best thing we’ve ever met. English is a very important language and I agree that everyone should speak it ( maybe it would be great if young parents would teach kids to skeap english since childhood,but I don’t agree with forgeting our diversity. Without diversity we probably wouldn’t be interested in travel, find different mentalities, different kind of food and history of each country would be meaningless.
no … england dont like eu …
The English language is the most popular one in the cultural world.
No. English is not superior to any other… What is the problem with having several official languages? The EU is made of different countries, all the major language groups should be represented.
The existence of a single official language is restrictive. Prefer multilingualism. Do not forget that every language bears a particular culture, customs and traditions. This diversity has no reason to change.
“Nein!” :P
NU! Domnul sa fereasca
There should be at least three other alternative official languages French, German and Russian? Do not forget how on 23 November 1959 in a speech in Strasbourg, de Gaulle announced his vision for Europe: Oui, c’est l’Europe, depuis l’Atlantique jusqu’ l’Oural, c’est toute l’Europe, qui dcidera du destin du monde. (“Yes, it is Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals, it is Europe, it is the whole of Europe, that will decide the destiny of the world.”)
Yes
No… More diversity is need…
Most certainly not.
That’s weird, now that UK is considering leaving EU!!! :-)))) #gonebonkers
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Yes in order to avoid discrimination among languages by raising an international language
Yes
Suspect it will continue much like it is today; each region having its own language. And like today, English and German being important languages for business.
Yes and it is already English. Multilingualism is a 19./20. century imagination for people who are not able to think logical. At that time there were not many travelers. A global lingua franca was not used even if there were already some dominant language. Therefor one had to learn the native language. This time is over. The multilingua attitude of the EU is a show for nationalism and egoism. A costly show. But the reality is that ‘automatically’ everyone synchronizes on English. Same story is valid all over the world. Here in Germany English is already a kind of unofficial second language. Or what do you think are people speaking in Berlin in clubs, in many cultural events, in startups and so on if meeting other people form Europe? And this is due to urbanization all over the world …
English is the language of business. And it is the language of diplomacy (French has lost this status already 100 years ago). English is the language of IT. English is the language of aviation. English is the language of ship transport. English is the language of the internet. English is the language of science. And English is already disconnected to any classic
Most English is used by non native speakers as the new mothertongue of the planet.
The rest is a matter of time.
Chinese and Spanish have no chance to become ever that dominant. Both are soon reaching their demographic peak. India with English will be the biggest country. Hindu will remain the dominant local language. aside of English. Similar story in Pakistan, another still faster growing country. It is English to get connected to the world. Same story for Bangladesh. Same story for Indonesia. Same story for Malaysia. Same story for the Philippines. Same story for Nigeria, the biggest african country and in the future bigger than all Spanish speaking countries on the planet. Same story for south africa. China itself turns to English as several hundred of million people are already learning it. English is the most used language in Europe. Btw: it is totally irrelevant if there is an EU or not. If one is traveling or meeting people for ANY reason one has to get understood. And this is usually in English. If one from Poland meet one from Spain and Germany they use in most of the cases English. Same story around the world. If you open your eyes then you should recognize that English is used as second language on the streets in Asia, in the arabic countries, in most parts in Africa and so on. And you could recognize that more and more ‘french’ african countries turn OF COURSE to English as well – some are more contretely, other ones with a bit a delay. And how you think are people from Africa are communicating with Chinese? In Chinese? Do you want proof that you have no idea of the reality? No, it is mostly in English. The African migrants in China are using mostly? yep, of course English. 40% of the media on the planet use: English. the most relevant media on earth are using: English. English is already today spoken by a third of the world. Soon by half of the planet. People who are not able to speak it are the ones who are dying at first. People who are still not used to a global world and full of idiotic resentments are dying at first. Other younger ones are more open and stick not to naive ideas of ‘identity constructions’. And so on, and so on … it is English and this is good.
L’anglais est la langue de l’aviation qui tue et est une des principales causes d’accidents et d’incidents, anglais imposé par l’Amérique sans avoir demandé l’avis à personne, de nombreux accidents ont eu lieu car l’anglais est trop difficile pour les non anglais, et cause de nombreux problèmes. L’Espéranto serait sécuritaire dans l’aviation et ailleurs car étant la plus facile des langues vivantes, mais la plupart des gens l’ignorent, on leur fait tellement du bourrage de crâne d’anglais, l’anglais ne convient pas, n’est pas fait pour la communication internationale, et ceux qui critiquent l’Espéranto ne le connaissent pas et ne l’ont pas essayé, on obtient des résultats supérieurs en Espéranto qu’en Anglais, ce sont les politiciens qui ne comprennent rien du tout et qui sont des idiots. Ceux qui soutiennent l’anglais pareil car les médias et les politiciens les rendent de plus en plus bêtes. Excusez moi il m’est impossible de parler anglais qu’on m’a imposé après 6 ans, je n’ai pas appris l’Espéranto pendant 6 ans pour le parler couramment, imposer l’anglais aux non anglais est une grave erreur discriminatoire et de ne pas respecter les langues des autres. Je n’écris pas en anglais, mais j’écris en Français et je peux très bien écrire en Espéranto, mais pas en anglais. Celui qui veut traduire en anglais puisque ces gens ne connaissent pas autre chose peut le faire. Faire tout en anglais est la dictature linguistique.
stupid question. all languages have changed over the course of decades upon centuries largely because of influence from neighboring countries, slang, etc. To think that any given region is going to stick to a dictionary currently used in one specified area is “totscraycray”
. The movie “Idiocracy” (though a comedy should be a documentary) explains it perfectly. (Pardon the bad spelling) “Kolik jazyku umis, tolikrat jsi chloviekiem”
The main reason why English is so widely spoken is that it has become the most dominant language of the world after 1500 years of continuous warfare. This happened multiple times over history with different languages (Greek, Latin, Portuguese, Spanish, French). Were those languages better than other ones? No. Were they more international than other ones? No. Then why did they become so widely spoken? Why did such a difficult language as Latin become the number one language of Europe for over a thousand years? Was it due to its structure or any inherent qualities? No. Why then? The real answer is this: enforcement, power, domination, politics. That’s what all of these languages have in common, including of course English. English has been around as the dominant language for “just” a hundred years and yet many think it’s going to be like that forever. Latin was dominant for a thousand years and I’m sure almost everybody believed the same back then. The fact that we now live in a much different world does not make a believe more true; it’s just an excuse to justify the same believe. Excuses change nothing, but make everyone feel better. One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them.
English is the dominant language, not only of Europe but also of the world. The question is for how long and at what cost? How many times through history are we going to repeat this dominant language mistake? When are we going to learn from our past what mistakes to avoid in our present in order to improve our future. History shows us that things like war and domination are terrible not just for us, but also for all living things and for the planet itself. The word “globalization” should really mean much more than this petty, cartoonish delusion that makes us think we are doing better than ever before, just because we have technology and a dominant language, which in reality is nothing more than version 2.0 of the same old story. We don’t need another upgrade for our old program; we need a new, more efficient software and even a new hardware in order to run it properly. Time for a little reality check.
Why should English be the only official language of the EU? It would just reinforce its character as the dominant language, which in itself is already a big mistake as history shows us over and over again. This is not only bad for other languages, but for all languages, including English. Who speaks Latin today? Any scientific papers in Latin lately? Yet it was the language of science in Europe and did well for a long time. The problem is that it was the language of a certain nation, which became dominant and thus condemned to lose its predominant position as soon as the next superpower imposed its own rules. It’s a vicious circle that makes humanity progress in a jerky, most ineffective way. Today we are beginning to have a glimpse of what a globalized world could mean. Nations and superpowers are taking note. For the first time in a century of English prevalence, the global reality we are stepping in is clearly showing us that communication is no longer possible on the scale of a single language like English. Reality is multilingual and translation, even computer assisted, is not enough to ensure transfer of knowledge. This is particularly critical in scientific research, where excellent scientific discoveries are emerging in non-English languages. Countless ideas and innovations could be lost unless we find a better way of communication between linguistic communities (M. J. Barany, 2005).
It is an extremely huge challenge. Here is the picture:
1) No single national language fulfills the requirements for a working transfer of knowledge between different languages.
2) Reality is multilingual.
3) Translation is necessary but insufficient.
4) Globalization has change the meaning of dominant language from a position of privilege to one of handicap. This is the so-called “paradox of the dominant language”: in a world where globalization grows parallel to information and communication technologies, to speak only the dominant language is to be under-informed (M. Oustinoff, 2012).
English dominance on the web in the 1990s has fallen today below the 50% mark. Cyberspace is definitely multilingual. Internet is not a virtual reality inside a fantasy world; it’s a mirror that reflects back the real world. The world is multilingual. It always was. This may be the beginning of the end of the dominant languages.
Let’s all speak Elvish, take your pick, Quenya or Sindarin, it doesn’t get any more neutral than that.
On a serious note,
I agree that English should become the de facto lingua franca in the world WITHOUT forgetting your culture and mother tongue, the world needs a lingua franca, and English is already powerful enough for the job, encourage it without pushing down American’s culture. We can perfectly speak English without ever licking the US’s ass or caring about their religious and war-hungry society.
Turning English into a lingua franca without adopting American or British culture is perfectly doable.
“Let’s all speak Elvish […]”.
You speak Elvish, if that is your choice. Meanwhile, let’s stop forcing people to speak English, e.g. at schools; let them speak and learn the language they choose to. Stop this silent bullying that favors people speaking English and discriminates the rest.
“[…] English should become the de facto lingua franca in the world […]”.
You’re too late: English is already the dominant language of the world, damaging other languages (sometimes to the point of extinction) and damaging English itself.
“[…] the world needs a lingua franca, and English is already powerful enough for the job […]”.
The world needs tools to enable people of different languages to communicate in a right and effective way. Internet is one of those tools, as well as translation. A dominant language is not. “Persuading” people to learn English in the hope of a better life is not a tool for effective communication. That’s something else.
Cyberspace is multilingual because the world is multilingual; it always was.
Hopefully the age of dominant languages will soon be over, as Internet is beginning to show.
Campaign for the neutral language of Esperanto to be an official language of the EU
Link is here!
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/?tJbwlab.
The only choice is Esperanto, not English.
I am for a neutral artificial language, but I think Esperanto is a BAD idea. A text written in Esperanto looks awful, as a bad parody of Italian.
I would really suggest Interlingua. It looks like Spanish, but is shaped by English speaking people. It is good, as it wwas mentioned here in the forum, the only truly international languages spoken in the EU are Spanish and English.
If your idea of a working international language is based on how it looks, let’s use Egyptian hieroglyphs. I don’t know how they sound but they look beautiful.
“The only truly international languages spoken in the EU are Spanish and English”.
Neither Spanish nor English are international languages. They are national languages, intended for communication among people who speak them as native languages. The fact they are used internationally does not make them international languages. They remain as what they are, national languages, no matter how much we try to use them as international languages.
A national language with dominant position is just a dominant language, not an international one. Violence, no matter if physical, psychological, social, economical or historical-related, should never be a valid argument for an international language.
I thought it was? Here, you start English classes as early as 4th grade that are mandatory, you can even start them sooner if that’s your wish, or you parents wish. They’re even considering to add German to the mix now as well.
Yes because is defacto the international language.
All Europeans should be able to communicate. More than 80% of Greeks under 40 speak English and I think it should be mandatory as it is in Greece. In countries such as Spain, Germany, Italy many have problems communicating!
well, tough question…
A bit like russian at the (E)USSR…
Of course NOT!!!
EU is an ALLIANCE (primary economic) of 28 SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES, not some Anglo-Saxon Empire!
EDIT: How World develops, it would be wise to learn Chinese as a foreign language.
yes. cos its a world language. it would help us all communicate…
Last time I checked, the EU doesn’t have competency on who learns what where. Par contre, chaque tat devrait promouvoir l’apprentissage de langues trangres (au pluriel, donc), notamment celles de ses voisins directs. Ce n’est pas impossible, mais une question de priorit politique. Le tout--l’anglais est une fausse bonne ide car elle mne l?unilinguisme, ce qui est un comble pour une UE dont la devise fait rfrence la diversit.
.
Yesterday your currency, today your language, tomorrow your culture.
You WILL be an ‘EU citizen’ whether you want it or not.
No as that is as bad when French, been the ‘Diplomatic and Hof’ speech, was forced upon leode inwardly and outwardly that spoke no French. Moreover, English is not ‘English’ but an imposter Tongue from real ‘Englisc’.
Well despite the fact i learn the language in the Country i choose to Stay = English has been the recognised International Emergancy and Air Traffic Control – it makes sense for us to learn it as a second language – the amount of times i have stopped to assist at RTA s – Accidents – where time is an essence – giving directions- car reg numbers to even trainned Emergancy Operaters has been very confusing ! Like wise ( OK off thread ) IF a Chemical Tanker was involved in an RTA or Fire at a School Chemical Lab- i would NOT know which Fire Extinguisher to grab – despite being trainned !
Yes. In Finland you must study from 3rd grade in school (when you are 9 years old).
Yes…!! Plus one more language… German or French!!
Absolutely!!! A must!!!!
Of course – it is the European international language – but British children should also be made to learn at least one other language – and we should have a more intelligent view of Slav languages too. Polish is about to be dropped ys an examination language in UK which is madness. We must break the hegemony of French – most UK schools now offer Spanish but German has been in decline and this is also crazy.
Why do those kids in the picture have the Union Flag on their bags. Surely if any flag is to be used to represent the English language it should be the English Flag.
YEEEEEEESSSSS!!
Yes.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
obviously :)
Should learning English as a foreign language be mandatory for all students in Europe?
Why MANDATORY? Why does it have to be mandatory?
There are other things that curtail the exchange of information and knowledge such as religious and political beliefs. Shall we then make religion and political views mandatory?
Try applying this, to Higher Education institutions…
Should learning English as a foreign language be mandatory for all students in Europe? NO!
Why MANDATORY? Why does it have to be mandatory?
Do we have too many lawyers looking into the problem? For whom a solution to any problem is a new law?
There are other things that curtail the exchange of information and knowledge such as religious and political beliefs, access to the actual information, financial means to attend the necessary education institutions.
Shall we then make religion and political views mandatory?
English, German or French, since the 3 of them are working languages at institutional level. Choosing just English sounds a bit arbitrary to me.
Better with Esperanto
If Europe makes it Mandatory for all EU Citizens to Learn Maltese, Then yes By all means !!!
Yes! All equipments inthe eastern side of the globe are in english. Also: chinese for the future! ;)
Yes it should.
Well, in terms of native speakers, spanish is, by far, the most widely spoken european language even above english as many people in the US do speak spanish as their first language. So ,of course, english should be compulsory at school but not imposed after a certain age. The richness of Europe is made by all his languages, and i consider a huge mistake thinking that once you learn language you can live anywhere.
Spanish would be better .
Definitely english should be the second language taught in schools, firstly because we europeans need to be able to communicate with each other, secondly because english is the most widely spoken second language in the EU and thirdly, because most of the world accepts english as lingua franca of our age.
Maybe Croatian?
YES
Yes
ESPERANTO
Wake up Everybody.
Just a Common Sense vehicle language like a credit card and NO linguistic Imperialism.
Trying for decades.People are STUPID
No, Esperanto must be, not only for the Europe but for all world.
16 rules,phonetic,no exceptions.Learn in a month
english and german … maybe france …. :)
Yes, sure.
Where is The Your files in lunar house for me since such year?
We will see if Britain stays in the Union. If it is not joining the Eurozone, it is best to learn Italian, French, Spanish, and German. We could teach English as a form of development assistance for mono-lngual Brits if the nation decides to stay.
(y)
No.
Brits should start learning their own language first. #troll
Definitely YES.
I think a second language should be mandatory anyway. Most Brits don’t even speak any other language.
It would make it more simple and useful for all nations of Europe, if English would be taught as second language.
Yes
Definitely.
Esperanto or Latin. The EU language can’t be one member language!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/04/23/the-worlds-languages-in-7-maps-and-charts/?tid=pm_pop_b
Yes
EYes. nglish is today’s church Latin. No brainer.
http://www.ethnos.gr/summary.asp?catid=34421&subid=2&pubid=64172763&mmid=28875546#toppage
Not , the foreign language should be choosen freely. It’s true that nowadays english is the lingua franca but each one should chose the foreign language that he prefers.
It is inaccurate to call English “the lingua franca”. This term applies to a mixed language, which is nobody’s native tongue but which allows people of different languages to communicate on the basis of equality. English is totally different go a lingua franca – it gives a substantial, permanent advantage to its native speakers, who belong to the richest part of the human race.
YES
Yes
It kinda is. Seriously, I think that few students nowadays do not study at least a few years of English as part of their education.
English +one latine language+one east language. That one of the key of EU integration.
Eureka! 1-Germanic language, 2-Romance language, 3-Slavic language;
Trilingualism in europe, very good idea Blanche Rose. Your idea is better than one language. I would choose English, Spanish and Russian although I know that Russian is not official in any country of the European Union.
not mandatory, more likely a common sense thing to do
Yes
no
Mandatory is not any more a need ,computers can translate anything our days . Also ,people express themselves better using their home language . Why to not learn to use it much better !! More quality education needs ..
No bugger off
yes
Yes, definitely.
English nope. German or french yeap
Of Course
If you are concerned about their future well being, yes.
This is simple, if English countrys will be in the Top list of the World, over 50 years, the answer is #YES
not only english.
Yes
Shouldn’t be a question at all
Like French… like… spanish…like portuguese…. so!
No!
Why not create a new language that constitute words from all EU Member States? I know the idea sounds crazy, but it might work.
Of each language can be learned 50-100 words and to form a vocabulary of several thousand words to create a new language – European language.
Yes, it should be
We should learn one germanic, one romance and one slavic. Europe is rich in languages and it would be non-sense to learn only English as a foreign language, specially when it seems that a part of the UK is not very interested in being part of the EU.
If you want a European language, you are now writing It! English is European as it is British! A former Germanic dialect with considerable French and Latin influence is after all, as European as it Gets! I am Romanian, therefore I am a native speaker of a Latin language, but still, I believe English is the most comprehensible and European there is As for Esperanto, Latin or a new one, I think complicating communication will not help in building an united Europe.Almost no one would learn it, the existing lingua franca is the most fit for the Europe of tomorrow!
Esperanto would not complicate communication, but would enormously simplify it. Ask any native English speaker who speaks Esperanto fluently – they are in a good position to compare the two. And some Esperanto words are the same as Romanian.
Absolutely, the only way for us all to speak one language and get on step closer to unity! It will keep us different still but won’t be nice to be a part of a multi developed Europe where people can interact without borders?? Maybe’s just me, or not?
UK is not very interested in EU now, but in the future there is chance that they will change their views. Anyway, language and politics are two different issues.
“Mandatory” sounds ugly. Why not to call it – to have the oportunity to study English …
Yes all children should learn English our common language.
Nothing should be mandatory!!!
I would eliminate the conditional, actually! Without a common language, most people face their adult working life at a disadvantage…….unfortunately, in places like southern Italy, learning English has two major drawbacks…….1) it is still considered an option, a luxury in many cases; 2) most EFL projects are carried out by people who don’t really know what EFL or ESL really is about…trusting on the fact that they are native speakers, they overlook the importance of putting both languages on an equal base, and actually creating synergy between them.
The major drawback of English is that it gives a large, permanent and unearned advantage to native speakers of English. Over 99% of learners simply never reach the level of a native speaker, and they sound childish to native English speakers. English, as the first language of some can never be a second language for everbody.
There are almost one thousand million people who already speak English to a certain level. 1% of that is 10 million people who have native speaker proficiency. Which is way more than the alternative some are advocating here. Additionally, in each and every country in the World there is a sizable percentage of people that although they are fluent in their native language they don’t reach the necessary proficiency to excel in the use of their own language. It is their choice. They should study more. But I agree with Bianca some better methods of teaching languages in general, and specially English as a second language, are necessary.
So the major drawback of teaching English as a second language is also going to be a major drawback of teaching any other language. Most people will decide that what they have learned is enough and stop before reaching the level of proficiency that is really going to help them. And that is in spite of all the superior economic incentives that learning English offer compared to other languages.
Yes
http://Www.Sombriya.com
Yes !
It is a no brainier
Yes. And an optional 2nd lenguage.
English ancient Greek and latin
Where is the debate? Of course it should !
¡No digas chorradas tío!
Yes!
And, Esperanto (Esperanto – facila lingvo)?
Duh.
.
The arrogance of the European federalists will be their undoing.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/europe-tower_of_babel.jpg
We should learn Esperanto
Yes.
You could always learn another language, but I would definetly advise you to start with EN!
In fact it is better to start with Esperanto. Apart from being many times easier than English, and thus an encouragement to weaker language learners, it is a better preparation for subsequent language learning. Admittedly, it is based on European roots, but is far less Latin-based than the uninitiated think. Where do common words like “monato, hundo, jaro, fingro, birdo, pilko, teamo” come from? But at two deeper levels, it resembles 1) Hungarian, Finnish and Turkish as it is agglutinative; and 2) Mandarin Chinese, as it is an isolating language, i.e. it is based, as is Mandarin Chinese, on invariable morphemes. Thus, where English has “see, sight, television”, Esperanto has “vidas, vido, televido”, with the “vid” element in all of them.
Seán Ó Riain: Are you willing to throw away all the cultural baggage of humanity, or are you going to pay to have it translated into Esperanto. Granted it is in many languages, but it already has been translated into English and Spanish, and even a great deal into Chinese and Russian, not counting French Italian, etc.
Forget Esperanto, only the little few that has learned it have any hope, or interest, that their effort will pan out somehow, it won’t. Esperanto has no hope of becoming the main communication language among humans. It has no history, no culture, no economic, no social and definitely no political weight whatsoever and of course no money. Who would buy the following? “Best salikokoj kun bifsteko en la mondo, Grat kun Ŝirazo aŭ Merlot, Californiano kompreneble”. Ja Ja, not even with Google Translation to help. There are so many options, besides the most practical one of English, like Chinese, Spanish or even German. Hindustani has a much greater chance of becoming the main language of the World before Esperanto. Come on!, even French has a better chance. But this question is moot, even if the EU got around to imposing English as the sole Official Language of the Union, it won’t matter to the rest of the World, the same way that it won’t matter what the US. or the UK, or any other group of people does unilaterally. We should thanks Capitalism for showing us, and Communism for proving it, that nothing will advance unless it is profitable. And so far English is ahead of everybody else, closely followed by Chinese and Spanish. And don’t take your eyes off Russian, they have always been intelligent, resourceful and motivated. But Esperanto, Nah!
Most of the conversation here has develop into Anglophobia and “America phobia”. Just the irrational position that anything before the American or the Brits. But comes a problem and everybody wants the American to take care of it, if everything goes south we continue blaming them for the outcome and if everything comes out well, well we can always say they did it for the money, the oil, etc. imperialistic as they are. But nobody does more for the World than the US and the American people, in spite of all the bad things and screw ups, they still trump everybody else when it come to help and commit financial and human resources when humanitarian problems arise. That is a fact, no matter what all the talking heads say.
And they are changing!, who would have thought they would elect a black, sorry! African American, President and lift the Cuban Embargo? Don’t worry it is a trick, coming November a new white (maybe even of Cuban descent), Republican president will be elected and everything will be back to normal. ;-)
Alejandro Carlos: you could not possibly write this if you had any familiarity with the vast amount of high quality literature, both original and translated, which already exists in Esperanto. Read Dr Geoffrey Sutton’s “Concise Encyclopedia of Original Literature in Esperanto” (New York: Mondial, 2008). Some 730 pages, in English, published in the US, dealing only with the original literature produced in Esperanto in all continents over five generations. Translated literature is vast, more than any of us could read in a lifetime. And it tends to be qualitatively superior to translations into other languages, for one reason which is often overlooked. Hungarian, or Vietnamese literature is translated into English/French by native speakers of English or French who have studied Hungarian or Vietnamese. On the other hand, my “Hungara Antologio” contains 800 pages of Hungarian literature, translated into Esperanto by Hungarians themselves. Do you think learners of Hungarian have a better grasp of the spirit of its literature than Hungarians themselves?
Riain. You are talking about a few hundred pages of Modern Literature, I am talking about the History of Mankind in Words. Can you just imagine how much will cost to translate every major and important work of literature. We are talking of so much it is hard to grasp. Spanish, French, English, British, Russian, Chinese, Italian, Greek, Ancient, Modern and every other great piece in almost every other language. Most of those have already been translated into the major languages, but I doubt very much I could find the works of Huxley, Zola, Hugo, Balzac, Cervantes, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Confucius and all the others worth reading in Esperanto. It is simply not worthwhile.
That is without mentioning all the scientific, economic and social body of work accumulated to this date. Spanish is my language of birth and English was an acquire taste, I have always wanted to learn Chinese since my great-grandfather was one, but never have the opportunity when I was younger and it is too difficult and there is no economic motivation to realize the investment and spend the time, money and effort this late in my life. I came across Esperanto in the early seventies in Cuba and although I was curious for a little while It never really appeared as it was really going to take off. The years proved me correct. After all these years there have been more people leaning Chinese and Japanese as a second language than Esperanto. That doesn’t give Esperanto to much Esperanza (Hope) of becoming the World Language any time soon.
We can expound all the reason we can come up with, we can argue the merits of our points of view until we are blue in the face, but it doesn’t really matter, regardless of the merit of Esperanto, of how many people talk one language or other, that English may be wrongfully seen as the latest imperialistic effort of the Americans and their allies, Brits and Aussies, to dominate the World, truth of the matter is that boat sailed a long time ago. For any language to become a real World language there are too many things that have to happen first, for one, and in my opinion, we need to stop seeing ourselves as this or that “people” or that our particular “culture” should be preserved for eternity, the only way we, Mankind, are going to make in the long run is understanding that we are just one race, the human race, living in one country, the World. Once we accept it, then and only then we will come to terms with having only one language and one culture but for that we need to stop thinking of the others as different. Apparently, according to the latest theories we all came from the same place, Africa, and we all are going to same place, One Race, One World, One Language, or if we cannot manage to get along better than we are doing now, Oblivion.
But for the time being, Money trumps all other reasons and English = Money. Everybody hates Americans BUT, a very important but, everybody wants a piece of the American Pie, be it apple pie or Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Hollywood, Walmart, NYSE, etc. pie. And if you think than anything but money is going to drive people to, for the time being, get along in one language more than other then my friend you are in for a disappointment.
Oh, no, no country would ever foot the bill to get their greatest literary works translated if Esperanto became the official language of the EU (or even the official bridge language).
Other than that, why would I or a Spaniard or a German, et al need to get Dostojevky’s work published in Esperanto anyway? There are translations of his works in those languages already. Where Esperanto comes into its own in translation is for little known works from little known literatures. When’s the last time you saw a Spanish or English translation of the Georgian epic, The Knight of the Panther’s Skin? (by the way, there IS one in Esperanto as well) or works from Burmese, Khmer, or even Polish or Albanian authors? Isn’t it better to spend money on just one translation and use the other monies that would have been used to translate works into “all the major languages” for things like, feeding the poor, housing the homeless and working to right other social wrongs?
Alejandro. La mitad de lo que has dicho se podría haber dicho sobre el latín hace unos siglos. La otra mitad con el francés hace menos de un siglo. Hay realidades, y hay otras que son las de personas que quieren abandonar la ley de la jungla y proponer democracia. Por cierto. Yo leí el año pasado una hoja del Quijote en esperanto (el libro está traducido por un español) durante la lectura continuada en el instituto cervantes. Este año acompañé a dos que leyeron en esperanto, un coreano y un principiante de Madrid (un principiante! In English that would be unbelievable!). A más de uno que conozco le ha servido el esperanto para abandonar Cuba.
El futuro de la comunicación entre pueblos es el esperanto, es cuestión de tiempo y lógica que se use masivamente. Que no lo veas venir es ya otro problema, pero la gente suele acabar escogiendo lo que respeta, lo eficiente, lo culturalmente neutral, lo sencillo que lo impuesto, difícil (sí, el inglés es difícil, mira The Chaos poem), étnico, injusto, no neutral. De Hugo y Tolstoy (que apoyaba el esperanto desde Rusia y después de unas hras lo entendía con ayuda de un diccionario) ya he visto traducciones… Y hay perlas de literatura de lenguas minoritarias que no encontrarás en inglés y sí en esperanto. El esperanto tiene más peso del que te crees y yo dejaría de opinar tan a la ligera sin conocer los verdaderos límites del esperanto (y sin ver los del inglés que tanto esfuerzo te ha costado, estancado ya en asia según EF, y que pareces no querer abandonar como única alternativa para comunicación puente). Tú te lo pierdes. Yo puedo comparar mejor que tú entre ambos y sé que el esperanto le da mil vueltas al inglés que va decayendo con esta crisis mundial.
Alejandro Carlos: Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You are correct that money trumps all other reasons, but not always! For instance, Professor François Grin, an economist based at the University of Geneva, published a study in 2005 proving, in over 130 pages of calculations, that the EU could save EUR 25 billion per years by giving a central role to Esperanto! But Grin goes on to point out that there is absolultely no chance of that happening at present, not due to any defect in Esperanto, but due to the vast ignorance of Esperanto, and strong prejudices based on that ignorance, of the general population. Grin writes that it would take a generation of public education to open people’s eyes. The majority prefer their prejudice, even it is costing them EUR 25 billion per year. As a footnote, I should add that we are not talking about a few hundred pages translated into Esperanto. We are taking about at least 40,000 volumes, already translated, and representing the best of world literature from hundreds of languages. My own modest libraty has over 900 books in Esperanto, including translations from Chinese, Japanese, Spanish (Cien Anos de Soleco; Cervantes, Garcia Lorca and many more), Arabic, Russian, Swedish, Hungarian, Vietnamese, Finnish (the entire Kalevala, worked on by a Finnish translator for over 30 years), German (including Goethe’s Faust, again the product of over 25 years of hard work by a talented translator), English (incluiding all of Shakespeare’s plays and sonnets). There are 2 translations of “Hamlet” into Esperanto, one, by an Englishman called Newell, is faithful but not beautiful; the other, by Zamenhof, is beautiful, but not as faithful (it is regularly put on stage – I attended a good production by Bulgarian actors). I am both in favour of one human race, with everybody able to communicate with everybody else, and in favour of linguistic and cultural diversity. I grew up bilingually in an English-speaking part of Ireland, but our own national language Irish (called Gaelic by Americans) is under threat from English and we have to work hard to keep it from disappearing. One of the advantages of Esperanto in favouring linguistic diversity is that it can be learned in 10% of the time needed to learn English or French, leaving 90% more time to perfect one’s own native language or to learn other things.
Yes please
I think it already is :)
yes
Yes! Absolutely
Promoting English as a foreign language is absolutely essential, although foreign language training need only encompass alternatives to mother tongues.
Just a little clarification here – dear folks, it’s not about the Brits here, cause English is not only their language, it’s actually a mix of Germanic and Latin via French, so. …English is very much of ours as it is theirs!
Not at all. English is not very much ours. My language, Spanish has much Arabic as well as Latin, Germanic, Phoenician, Celtic and Iberian to name a few so your assertion is spurious.
Why not Russian?
Twenty years ago Esperanto was proposed. Why nobody talks about it?
They are certainly talking about it here :)
Twenty years ago Esperanto was proposed. Why nobody talks about it?
Because people are brainwashed into believing that English, and English only, is the international language. How can anybody choose between English and Esperanto if they have studies one of them, and have not studied the other?
Because one have social, economic and political relevance and the other doesn’t. It may have been proposed twenty years ago but it is much more older than that and in the over one hundred and twenty years it has been around, it has gained only about two million speakers, not all of them fluent, and you want to teach it to everybody else, and then translate everything into it. Germany, France and Spain won’t permit it. But here is a suggestion, go to Indonesia, you may get a foothold there.
So many people wasting valuable time trying to master difficult English, instead of learning other skills that could benefit Europe’s economy. Or having learned it they mumble through in broken English, and such low quality communication can’t be great for the economy either. Esperanto needs to be more visible, for example in schools, so that a proper proposal and informed choice can be made (over a time frame of decades) that could seriously help Europe’s success.
Uff, Alejandro, I have reread your many posts and you really, really need remedial help in subject-predicate agreement in English – I mean this as friendly help. Please review this subject and take it seriously. The many mistakes make your ideas seem to be of little importance. If, indeed, you would plead for English, then you should devote more time to learning to write it correctly, especially when it comes to such trivial grammatical problems as the aforementioned.
Thank you Robb for your loaded friendly advice about the poor quality of my English skills, I am still learning, and twenty years from now, if I am still around, I will continue to be learning. But my poor English and your superb mastery of both, English and Esperanto, doesn’t change the fact. People want to learn English, they perceive English as something worth spending money, time and effort on (they pay you to teach them helping you make a good living, which you can’t do with Esperanto). Those same people don’t see Esperanto as a way to the same benefits. Therefore, or so, or Duh!, they prefer English. I can’t help but to read a certain frustration and disappoint between the lines of your irrefutable commentaries. Could that be because no matter how you try to brow beat and bully others to get them to accept you arguments people don’t pay much attention to them. It amazes me that you claim to be a native speaker of American English, more than 99% of Americans don’t have any idea what Esperanto is, and they don’t really care. They are too busy making a better living than Esperanto could ever provide.
In a different post in this same debate you say “English has needed the full support of the governments of Great Britain [e.g. the British Council], the United States of America, the ‘Commonwealth of Nations”, and other anglophone countries along with the total crushing of other languages spoken within the borders of these countries [e.g. my using my mother tongue as a born citizen of the USA] by means of physical force, coersion, humiliation, degradation, prohibition, etc. in order to attain its position.” Riddle, which is the mother tongue of a born citizen of the USA? Correct me (again) if I am wrong but I was told it was English. Another question, (but let me quote you first, “I teach English and American culture to undocumented, highly educated immigrants and refugees here in the USA”) how come that being such a masterful English teacher, you teach illegal immigrants. Isn’t that illegal? Additionally, where could your students go if you taught them Esperanto instead? Have any one of them ever asked you to learn Esperanto? And what “American Culture” do you teach them, “American Natives Culture”, all others arrived in a boat or otherwise at one time or other.
You see I am NOT a born American citizen, for me it was not an accident of birth, I conciously, voluntarily and willingly chose to become on and I proud of it. But in my native culture I was taught that when your coat is dirty you don’t turn it (I bet you that most of your Esperanto friends won;t get his one).
yes ,because english are being use in every country in the world
[eo] Evidente ne en via lando.
[de] Ganz offenbar nicht in deinem Land.
[en] Obviously not in your country.
..Ljeonjyid Dasheevskjij:
..respondo al temo “Scientific Babel: The language of science from the fall of Latin to the rise of English”.
..mi estas kreanto de universalaj ( = > juniversalay ,tau^gay por chjiuy lingvoy) gramatiko de ankorau^ ne ekzistanta matra (patrina) lingvo E(e)spa ( = Espa ,namata ( < = nomata) de du unuay silaboy de namo ( ch ,ĝ = > gh ,ĥ = > hh ,”jh” = “j^” = “ĵ” ,eh = ê) ,”y” (egala al tremao ,ekz”e: ye = ё ,ya = ä) ,emh = em^ = e~ = ẽ -+ neprononcata literkombino “mh” egala al tildo (~) por signi nazalayn vokaloyn. .!Zamenhhoofa Esperante tre ( = > trej) necesas kiel ( = > ko) modele pes sukcesa transyire pejm ( yi fo plji(j) = yi f” p”) yip diversmaniero konstruyitay gramatyikay strukturey.
.!baldau^ ( = > baldo) tuto nje ( chjyiuyn) naciayn lyingveyn (,inkluzivo kaj ( = > yi) kvazau^nacian Esperanten) kun ( = > yip) ilyiay ( < = fjesay = dhesay) arkhayikay (yi pro(s) (e)fe ( < = kaj pro tio) komplyikay) skribsistemey (,ekz"o ( = ekzemplo) ,h^ieroglyifay = hhieroglyifay) yi ( < = kaj) gramatyikay skeletey pes ( < = de) naciay lyingvey ,pro(s)ke ( pjjenlo) dha angla -+ In^gli^s^Eespan dialekten ,panstatauh la germana -+ doy(o)chjEespan dialekten ,panstatauh Esperante -+ EsperantEespan dialekten k” t” p”) yip jejlojheca ( pjjej) Globala Ortografia Standarde pes Transliterade -+ GOST “Dasheevica” yi syimpla komuna gramatyika skelete pes multodialekta ( = matra < = patryina) Eespa lyingve ,!chjiuy ( < = chjo(a)y) naciay yi kvazau^naciay ( = artefaryitay lyingvey yip ( < = kun) syimpla ,on ( < = sed) nOperfekta ( < = neperfekta) gramatyike) restos interesay onlo ( < = nur) por specialyistey pjje interlingvistyike ,!on ( < = sed) ordinaray hhom(en)y ( = h^omeny = meney = hhomey) ,turyistey ,vojaqhantey tuto nje ( < = ne) devos lerni komplyikan nacian skryibmanieren (,!echj nunan dha ( nonlongma) vojaqhe ( = vojaq^e < = vojag^e = vojaĝe) pjjen ( muchjodialektan) matran Eespan lyingven echj pet infanece ,por khhe !vizyitu http://www.esperanto.com or^ lesan blogen http://www.esperanto.com/blogs/Ljeonjiid/
Kio estas tio? Ĉu Porka Volapuko?
Ne… tio estus multe pli legebla!
Esperanto was created over sixty years ago and today can only boast to have a couple of millions of speakers. In the same time English have become the de facto universal language.
That alone says that English may not become the language of the World, but neither will Esperanto.
Esperanto was “initiated”, not “created”, on 26 July 1887 – a bit more than 60 years ago. It is a living language, with its own native speakers and rich original literature, and is in use in over 120 countries. And it is about 12 times easier to learn than English.
I was just making a 60 years comparison between the two languages, but your clarification works even better against Esperanto, over one hundred and twenty years and it has only about two million speakers! Not even close.
Alejandro, se le olvidó un “detalle” pero esencial (¿cómo es eso posible?). ¿Es que el Inglés se enseña mayoritariamente desde hace 50 años en muchas escuelas, pero Esperanto es casi siempre estudiado de forma voluntaria. Significa más bien que es muy atractivo … pero los poderosos que pueden decidir sobre los programas escolares no quieren este instrumento emancipador.
Pues, la pregunta importante es: ¿aceptamos el mundo o actuamos para hacerlo mejor?
Ningun idioma puede ser “universale”
Ingles fue impuesto por la fuerza y la astucia, pero no es en absoluto “internacional”. El idioma con más características “internacionales” es esperanto!
——————–
Alejandro, you forgot a “detail”, but it’s a BIG, a huge one (is it possible to forget it?!!!). English was taught massively in a lot of schools for more than 40 years, while esperanto is studied on a voluntary basis, by people who want a better world. THIS is attractive. However, the mighty people don’t want us to use this emancipating tool.
So, ask yourself: “Is it just, rightfull, agree with this unfair world, OR is it better to act for a better one?
No language can be “universal”, but anyway english is NOT at all. It was imposed by force and trickery. Esperanto is the language with more “international characteristics”.
For a language based on the ideals of communication among peoples who do not belong to the elites of their countries, and without an army (of soldiers or advertising executives), Esperanto is actually very widely spoken. English has needed the full support of the governments of Great Britain [e.g. the British Council], the United States of America, the ‘Commonwealth of Nations”, and other anglophone countries along with the total crushing of other languages spoken within the borders of these countries [e.g. my using my mother tongue as a born citizen of the USA] by means of physical force, coersion, humiliation, degradation, prohibition, etc. in order to attain its position. In order to control these territories, English speakers have had to resort to military might to invade and occupy them.
BTW; Subject-predicate accord in English would be ‘In the same time, English HAS become….’ Since you are a fervent proponent of English, I invite you to attend my Wednesday evening English lessons or I suggest that you enroll in the equivalent elsewhere. Once there you may discuss in more detail the merits of the spellling “enroll” [SAE – Standard American English] or the British variant ‘enrol’ – a problem that you would not have to concern yourself with when [Brit: whilst] using Esperanto.
Cheerio and all that, old chap! Take care, dude! Keep hangin’!
The conqueror always wants to eradicate opposition. England did it, France did it, Russia did it, Spain did it, China did it, Japan did it, Germany did it, the Arabs did it and so forth. But only the Americans are the bad guys. Now you want to eradicate English because it is a “very bad language” (it the language spoken by the Americans). But at the risk of being boring and repetitive. Those of you that think that teaching Esperanto to the billions that do not have any idea about its existence, because it easier that English, will have to justify to them the economic benefits they will reap through Esperanto, benefits that are more than obvious when they consider English, or even some other languages. Knowing Esperanto will not help them in finding a new job, a better paid one, and many other benefits they will accrue from learning English.
I really admire the passion and eloquence Esperanto advocates defend the language. Many other things have been defended with equal or even more passion and eloquence, and in many cases with much more violence and ferocity, like Communism. But when something does not produce a net benefit, which means more money, less expenses or both, it simply is not accepted, and if imposed eventually will be overcome. Just to part with a little suggestion, I would like for someone better informed than I appear to be to explain to me the multiple benefits, other that the ideological opposition to English (read Americans), Esperanto can provide the World at large. How much more money and investment will be lost if English is adopted instead of Esperanto. The way I see it, it does not matter how much or how loud the wolf howls to the mountain, in the end the mountain is not going to move and it will have to go away with its tail between its legs like a simple mutt. Esperanto speakers have been making their case for years, and it would have been a good thing to try when Europe started to unite into one economic unit, but let’s be honest, everybody wanted dollars and Americans don’t speak Esperanto, or French, or German, or Italian, or any other language so there was not much to do but to learn English. Do not blame the Americans, blame your own greediness and ambition. And that is what really irks English opponents, they are to blame as much as everybody else. I am pretty sure you have gain more benefits through English than through Esperanto. And you may defend Esperanto but you learned English too, otherwise you wouldn’t be expressing your opinion here.
Dominique. Let’s not be duplicitous here. You are French and nobody is more purist when it come to language that French, but French after being in the top of the World fell from grace to no other that the hated English. And yes, English have been taught in schools throughout the World for years while Esperanto has not but for good reasons, many of them. They are called dollars. Education main purpose is to help the individual obtain a better life and in most people’s book it is better to live with the shame of speaking English on a full stomach. But evolution is a bitch and is very difficult to predict, so who knows even though English is mighty and powerful today hoping against hope might take Esperanto to its rightful place, as the conqueror of all languages and the eradicator of all cultures without having to provided anything in its instead. But that is not going to happen in our watch, yours and mine, nor of those here more younger than us. It may take a few more years yet for the World to reach a consensus.
What you are not considering, you that oppose the English language so strenuously, is that the language may still prove to be your best ally, the more people that speak the language, who are not the hated Americans and Brits, the more noise against them will be made, in forums in which they participate, so they will hear the voices of their opponents, and nothing does more to unravel an Empire that the increasing number and volume of the opponents voices. From within. So my advise is, “vote for the language not the people.”
The long term economic benefits of Esperanto for Europe seem significant, and I do wonder what European authorities think of the Grin Report. For short term personal gain however, English no doubt “wins”. That said, our leaders can see the bigger picture, right?
I don´t think that Europe of the World for that matter should be forced to accept English or any other language as the only language, oficial or otherwise, but it is evident that in the end humanity will have to stop considering itself as composed by many disparate races.
There is not only one race, the Human Race, (so far we all come from the same origins, out of Africa) but eventually there will be only one language and one country. It is the only way to go the long way efficiently. Whether that language will be English is still for grabs, Spanish and Chinese have as good a chance, although I also believe that eventually English will prevail just out of practical reasons.
English which comprises of so many other languages, is like glue and can overtake all other languages. Thus, it by its very make-up, deserves to be the language that unifies Europe, like Latin did in its time. So, why not take the next step and make it the Official Language of the European Union?
By its’ very make-up the anarchic, mongrel dog’s breakfast of a language known as English is incapable of unifying Europe, and it’s pure fantasy to think otherwise.
English shares thousands of words in common with other European languages, which come from Latin, Greek, Hebrew, etc. and are therefore easily recognized by speakers of any European language. However the English forms of these words have been bent out of shape by centuries of semantic drift which results from Anglophones being too lazy, ignorant and/or stupid to learn their correct meaning and instead copying widespread misuse of such words.
The result is that using English would require the roughly 1200 million people who speak these other languages to learn and accept INCORRECT meanings for thousands of words which they already understand correctly from their native languages. The only thing which that could ever accomplish is chaos, so say that the spread of English would be entirely bad thing in every possible way.
This article is misleading at best. 40% of Europeans speak English as a second language? Just because you can string together a few sentences doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden go toe-to-toe with the likes of David Cameron in English on issues like Climate Change, taxes, nuclear proliferation, etc. These issues need to be debated in all their colors and nuances. Rhetoric is a very powerful tool, and it’s wielded mercilessly in the political sphere. Now put that up against someone who has a thick accent English and barely can make him/herself understood, not to mention the grammatical mistakes. They are suddenly not taken as seriously. When you’re the world’s stage, under the microscope, you can’t afford grammatical mistakes, or afford to be misunderstood. Let everyone speak their own native language, that way you won’t be outmaneuvered by a native speaker. You never know, the Hungarian might have had the better idea, but because he/she insisted on speaking English, their argument never resonated the way he/she intended.
Mr. Farquhar seems very emotionally tied to English (British or our real English as spoken here in the USA? – He is probably an aficionado of the RP version, ho hum – the one he learnED). He calls people “old chap” – maybe he wears old chaps – good for him! Otherwise he is also poorly informed about Esperanto. Too bad. He should take it for a spin. He might actually enjoy the ride.
I teach English and American culture to undocumented, highly educated immigrants and refugees here in the USA. It is indeed an enormous challenge and the pragmatics of English is the biggest hurdle – not so much the structural part, i.e what is grammatically correct versus what do you say and what don’t you say? “How to be grammatically correct and not offend anyone, get your true point across and persuade people that you do indeed have a valid point to make” – that is the whopper in English. The real bummer comes when you have to actually express yourself in anything more than “foreigner” English. No prob for that in Esperanto, dude! It’s a piece of cake. :-)
Oh, and just by-the-by: the English written by so many fervent fans of this language here is definite proof that even basic written English is not easy – if it were, why do they make so many simple mistakes (e.g. “english.. are….” etc.)? Just asking….. So, it’s in your court now, Anglophiles! Lay it on the line – or are you out on third?
Agreed. I am amazed at the zeal with which learners support English, while blissfully unaware of how bad their own English actually is.
Seán Ó Riain : Yes, BUT we are told that is not a problem, because the language used is NOT “english” but ELF (“English as Lingua Franca”) or an avatar of the “basic english” wanted by Churchill.
Obviously, as many people, I do not agree with the myth of “ELF”.
For me, “globish” is just a language to make people buy and sell, and obey.
Sometimes it allows people to communicate, but mostly in a rather poor manner.
I was taught english, but I prefer esperanto. ;-)
ELF/English lingua franca is particularly pernicious. It hoodwinks learners into thinking that ELF is a separate variety from US or UK English. If so, where is it? Where are its books, newspapers, TV stations? Which universities offer their courses in ELF?
Kvasnak. You shouldn’t blame the mistakes people make here using the language, more over if it is their second language. Normally people are also really bad at their original, mother language. Your personal lack of culture, education and proficiency in a language is not the fault of the language you choose to display said ignorance in.
Riain. The stretch to which people defend something the perceive as good has nothing to do with their understanding of what they are defending. Sometimes, it is really a good thing and others it is not. Case in question, Esperanto. It might be a good thing, or not, as a language, easy, universal and cosmopolite, but is it a good thing as a World language. Let’s see:
Today in the World are more than 7 thousand million people (not to use the American billion that is so confusing to, Europeans, and only about 2 million speak Esperanto, that is less than 0.0003%, Chinese is spoken by 900 million, that is approximately 13%, Spanish is spoken by almost 500 million for a 7 %. English is spoken by over 400 million as a native language and for at least as many as second language, that puts it as the second most spoken language in the World, add to that all the, already in place, infrastructure: economic, social and political. I there is not contest. English win the day, but if your distaste, aversion and envy of the English influence is so great that you cannot get past it, then obviously, Chinese, Spanish even French are a better choice than Esperanto. And that is just the obvious.
Alejandro… Please don’t tell me you think ethnic languages will ever be a fair and efficient solution for international communication. What do you think of this said by Claude Piron. Era un traductor de ONU y OMS, profesor de psicología en la universidad de Ginebra, fallecido :/
Creo en el bien. Y, al contrario que mucha gente, yo creo que el bien no es para nada simétrico al mal, sino que lo supera con creces. Una casa mal construida se cae a pedazos. Una bien construida resiste todo tipo de ataques, hasta los más extremos de la naturaleza. Por eso, no tengo ninguna duda del porvenir del esperanto. Si se compara con los otros medios de comunicación entre pueblos, está claro que es el mejor. Siento que el esperanto es una de esas cosas concretas fruto del bien.
Existen tres sistemas de comunicación internacional: el burocrático, el de la jungla y el democrático.
El sistema burócratico es el de las organizaciones internacionales como la ONU o la Unión Europea. Como todos los sistemas burócraticos usan grandes cantidades de papel, tiempo, dinero, electricidad y recursos humanos para resultados tan escasos. Y todo esto lo pagamos con impuestos.
El sistema de la jungla es aquel en el que una lengua, y por tanto una cultura, una nación o un grupo de naciones, recibe una posición de monopolio, no por las cualidades propias de la lengua o cultura, sino por factores meramente políticos, económicos y similares, que de ninguna manera guardan relación con exigencias de comunicación lingüística que contenten a todos. Así era el sistema de comunicación con el francés en el siglo XIX, y así es el sistema con el inglés actualmente. Ese sistema, que favorece a los miembros de una cultura específica tiene muchos efectos que son poco éticos y que crean desequilibrios peligrosos en el mundo, por no hablar de las consecuencias culturales catastróficas por esta imposición lingüística.
Tanto al sistema burocrático como al de la jungla les falta uno de los ingredientes principales del bien humano, los sentimientos. Esos sistemas carecen de sentimientos. Les falta más que nada consentimiento, empatía, sentimiento de justicia y de bienestar al comunicarse, de consideración por las necesidades de los débiles y pequeños, sentimiento por la dignidad humana y por el derecho de toda persona a encontrar a alguien que escuche y entienda, a alguien con el que hablarse sin problemas.
El tercer sistema es el democrático. Se llama esperanto. Como todo lo democrático, tiene muchos fallos, muchas imperfecciones. Pero también es el sistema más justo, más eficaz, y el más satisfactorio socialmente y racionalmente. En una palabra, es bueno. Nació de la bondad de un hombre. Nació del sentimiento del dolor con los demás, de la solidaridad, de servir a la justicia y de la dignidad humana. Sí, es bueno. Y por eso sobrevivirá a los demás sistemas.
Yo creo en el esperanto. Creo que esta lengua tiene más valor de lo que piensan los esperantistas. Creo que resolverá muchos más problemas en el futuro de la humanidad de lo que generalmente nos podemos imaginar los que ya lo hablamos. Creo que nos puede ahorrar mucho sufrimiento del que las personas no son conscientes por falta de un medio de comprensión entre los pueblos
Alejandro: You tell me nothing new. I, on the other hand, am providing you with new information. Read Sutton’s book. I have neither envy, distaste nor aversion to the English language, but I have a concern for linguistic justice which you do not appear to share.
Achieving an efficient bridge language in Europe does not have to happen today or even during this generation, so the current language populations are less relevant. For now basic English can struggle on, and those who have spent so much time learning it need not fear wasted investment. But as Esperanto can be learnt faster and to a higher level of fluency, it could be hoped that bootstrapping from maybe only a few hours in school each year, the EU could reap the cost and cohesion benefits of Esperanto within a couple of generations.
From the UNO/WHO translator Claude Piron:
The various systems in use
Ineffective, unfair or unethical systems
Essentially, there are three methods of international communication in use in today’s world, the third one being so marginal that it would hardly be worth mentioning, if it was not precisely the only one that succeeds in avoiding all the perverse effects that have been listed above.
One of the systems is the bureaucratic one. Several languages are used, and communication is ensured through translation and interpretation. As is usually the case with bureaucratic methods, it involves much waste and a lot of unproductive work. With this system, human energy is not put to efficient use. What has been said above about the unethical earmarking of financial resources refers essentially to this system. It presents all the negative features of the Soviet way of life.
The second system is the “jungle” one. It is based on the precedence of power. One language is in use. Those who cannot use it are excluded. In many cases, although they are victims, they are made to feel guilty (“I have been too lazy or stupid to learn the language that everybody uses; if I cannot communicate, it’s my fault”), so that they do not realize that they are the victims of an unfair method of communication. This system is not without common traits with the caste system of India. People have a lot of privileges if they were born in the right society: where English is spoken, i. e. where you can be lazy and selfish and still enjoy access to international contacts, and even expect, for what is felt as legitimate reasons, to be able to communicate wherever in the world you are traveling. An English-speaking physicist has been able to devote to physics the many hours that his colleagues from other cultures have had to devote to the painful and slow acquisition of English, (14) but he is unaware of his privilege. When you are a member of the upper caste, you take your advantages for granted. This caste system involves a hierarchy: people from Germanic cultures can reach the required level in less time than people with Romance languages, and the latter in less time than people with Slavic languages. Peoples with languages like Chinese or Indonesian are even more likely to be excluded, since the amount of time they need to master the language is enormous. Not only have people outside the upper caste been forced to devote many, many hours to the study of the upper caste’s language, moreover when they have to negotiate or discuss with somebody belonging to this upper caste they are at a disadvantage: their opponent can avail himself of a richness of vocabulary and a feeling of security in language use that they will forever be lacking. Their opponent has a mastery of the language weapon, they have not. We should meditate the following comment of a Hopi lady who sadly realized that by authorizing mining in the reservation, they had destroyed the harmony of their environment: “If, twenty years ago, our English had been better, we would never have signed that contract.” (15)
An effective, fair and ethical system
Contrary to what most people imagine, there is an alternative to both the bureaucratic and the jungle systems. A really democratic system exists and works perfectly. Its functioning can readily be observed in the field. When the various means of communication used to overcome the language barriers are compared in practice, with objective criteria, the third system, which is only marginally used, stands out as the only one which avoids all the perverse effects discussed above. It is called Esperanto.
Esperanto is a language born of one century of international interactions in a small community of people spread all over the world and encompassing most cultures, most religions, most professions and social layers, linked by nothing else than the use of that language for international communication (16). This community developed simply because all over the world there were people eager to communicate across cultural barriers and to enlarge their horizons who did not have the time to acquire one of the prestigious languages. So they adhered to a communication convention proposed in Warsaw in 1887 by a young man, L. L. Zamenhof, under the pseudonym Dr Esperanto. By using it in practice in all sorts of settings, they transformed that project into a living language. Speakers of Esperanto use that language only in international communication, as a substitute either to interpretation or to the kind of broken English usually in use, today, in intercultural situations (17). They think that the language which has grown out of Zamenhof’s project offers the best means of preserving all mother tongues and of protecting the cultural diversity of our planet.
Esperanto can be learned in an eighth of the time required to be able to communicate in an acceptable way in another foreign language, and in a thirtieth of the time required to have an actual mastery of another foreign language. It can be said that one month of Esperanto is similar to one year of another language as far as the communication level is concerned. It is the only existing language in which the average person can have a communication capability equivalent to the one he has in his mother tongue.
An excellent contribution! Claude Piron, who was fluent in Mandarin Chinese as well as English and his native French, makes an absolutely unanswerable case for Esperanto. I have never seen anybody make a serious effort to rebut his arguments – mostly the try to ignore them, or make fun of them. But truth will out – you can’t fool all of the people all of the time!
You all that so happily said “yes to English worldwide”, that generally only learned English and never Esperanto (try it and get to a fluent level in order to have a solid point of view to compare both solutions), you are making the same mistakes as in the past other did. You are responsible, as I was 4 years ago, of thousands of millions hours/dollars wasted worldwide for the acquisition of an unfair, inefficient (try pronouncing The Chaos poem right… it’s on Youtube) not culturally neutral language. As you can see below, French was a mistake, English is a mistake… do you want Chinese later，o español? 我在学汉语呢，因为人都常常不聪明。
«The official languages of the League of Nations were French, English and Spanish. The League considered adopting Esperanto as their working language and actively encouraging its use, but this proposal was never acted on. In 1921, Lord Robert Cecil proposed the introduction of Esperanto into state schools of member nations, and a report was commissioned. When the report was presented two years later, it recommended the adoption of Cecil’s idea, a proposal that 11 delegates accepted. The strongest opposition came from the French delegate, Gabriel Hanotaux, partially to protect FRENCH, which he argued was already THE INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE. As a result of such opposition, the recommendation was not accepted.» source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations
Surely the long-term solution of the language problem, in the European Parliament, must be a non-national language! The dominance of a single dominant national language is also unethical.
This is why I would plea for the Esperanto solution.
Your readers may be amused by this video shown on French television http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXiR7xnjV78&feature=related
I, for one, should be a big supporter of English as THE world language. I am a native speaker of American English (the variety most commonly used in international trade and business). I teach it. I have a class every Wednesday evening during which I only teach pragmatics – how to express oneself in business, academia, and official settings in a way that convinces and persuades the listeners and addressees to take one seriously. A superior position for English would be to my economic advantage. BUT I see my students struggle and it pains my heart. I sometimes come home on Wednesday and feel so helpless to see my very, very bright students who have mastered all (or most) of the structural problems of English beating their heads against a societal wall in an attempt to convince people here that they are well educated and adept. I have a lawyer, a business personnel and assets manager, a former head of an Italian company in South America, an architect, a dentist, etc. as students. They really know their fields but they have trouble expressing themselves convincingly in English. Their accents, they phraseology, their writing structure – all of which they have mastered in their mother cultures are useless here in the USA. They are simply not taken seriously for what they really know. And I have seen this in other places and in Germany where I used to live. I actually got a job in Germany for which I was not at all prepared for in a marketing company ONLY because my English is native level. Yes, I grew into the job as time went by. But to be honest, it was unfair to the other candidates who came from marketing backgrounds. I might add that I have almost native level French (I was sent to a French speaking school in Lausanne as a child and teen), which most of the other candidates did not have. But it was my American English that nudged the hiring committee into accepting me. I am grateful. Yet I DO see the injustice in it all.
I also got into a doctoral program here in the US because I scored high on the GRE language (English) section – though I had to petition to have my lower math scores accredited. I then coached foreign students for the GRE – free of charge. My husband who also has a doctoral degree made it with my linguistic help – lots of it. And yet, the people who stood in judgment of him are totally MONOLINGUAL (in English only)!!!!!!! They have doctoral degrees and are full professors here in the USA and do not speak any foreign language at all!
No, when the cards are stacked like that it is not fair.
I sat for two semesters on the doctoral candidate committee and saw many foreigners get shot down due to their English – not their knowledge of the field. I pleaded for them before the other members. To no avail!
I am not putting English down. It is useful to know it, but it should not be the measure of skill, knowledge, talent, intellect, wisdom, and learning.
A less culturally biased language like Esperanto (which indeed is structurally easily mastered), one that puts the speaker and user (writer) on a more level playing field is needed. I rest my case.
I agree with Robb. A Korean doctor once wrote to me that he had calculated the total amount of time he has spent studying English. In that amount of time, he wrote that he could have done not one, but three doctorates! Yes he is still not comfortable negotiating with native speakers of English. That is unjust and unfair. I too am a native speaker of English, grew up in Ireland and received a Ph.D from Trinity College, Dublin for a thesis on language planning in Ireland and Québec. I have developed reasonable fluency in eight languages, having lived for many years in Germany, Austria, Poland and Belgium. The adoption of English as the only official EU language could only benefit me personally. Yet I am against it, as it is unjust and unfair to the 88% of EU citizens who are not native speakers of English.
But the Korean Dr. blames the English speakers for his discomfort when he deals with them. I wonder how much can be done in Korea if you don’t speak Korean well. They really go out of their way in helping people feel welcomed, they even tell them very warmly “if you don’t speak Korean don’t bother coming” and if they can take advantage of you because of the situation they will screw you three hundred different ways before you realize it hurts. They only put the English signs up to lure tourist in and keep their dollars when they leave. And the adoption of the English language in the EU will help not only you but all the people living in the EU. Just from the money saved in translation and interpretation services, there will be enough money to cover all the thing that Europeans want the government to pay for but that they don’t want to finance through taxation.
The paradox (the scandal) is that here, only people who speak at least some English can read and give their opinion. All others are excluded. This result (completely incompatible with democracy) was achieved through a massive teaching for 50 years, and a population brainwashing by politicians and mass media.
I agree completely with Dominique.
Globish reminds me of another failed project called “Basic English” which failed, because native English speakers could not remember which words not to use :)
So it’s time to move forward and adopt a neutral non-national language, taught universally in schools worldwide,in all nations. As a native English speaker, I would prefer Esperanto.
Your readers may be interested in the following video at http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_YHALnLV9XU Professor Piron was a translator with the United Nations in Geneva.
As another native English speakre, I agree with Brian. Professor Piron’s presentation is well worth watching.
Andererseits – und da hier ausschließlich die Rede von Europa ist, müßte wohl die Anzahl der europäischen Muttlersprachler mit in Betracht gezogen werden. Sollte man in der Tat eine Nationalsprache als DIE europäische Bindesprache aussuchen, dann wäre natürlich Deutsch der stärkste Kandidat und kaum Englisch. Weit mehr Europäer sprechen zuhause Deutsch als Englisch. Darüber hinaus, wenn die Diskussionsteilnehmer hier die Anzahl der wissenschaftlichen Werke und der übersetzten Meisterwerke der Weltliteratur erwähnen, fällt die Wahl klipp und klar auf die deutsche Seite.
Trotz alledem finde ich Esperanto wegen der Klarheit der Ausdruckmöglichkeiten und der leicht erlernbaren Formlehre, oder Morphologie, dieser Weltsprache am geeignetesten.
Sie müssen etwas wissen: Ich fing an, Deutsch zu lernen gerade dank Esperanto.
Wenn wir, die Anzahl der Sprachen und Mehrsprachigkeit Europäer erhöhen wollen, müssen wir Esperanto nutzen zu können!
(Je ne connais pas encore assez de langue allemande pour me passer de l’aide de Google translate)
I agree with Sean O Ryan. I am against the colonisation of Europe. English has too many exceptions, maybe 500 000 if you make a comparison with esperanto. Concerning the 200 000 words in the big English dictionaries:
for the accent : always the same syllable in esperanto, a third of 200 000 in English;
for the phonetic writing : all the words in esperanto, 10% in English…
As an avid follower of this debate I am sure that the Esperanto speakers have won the argument.
If anyone wants to look at the language please see www://lernu.net
That’s the point, they have been winning the argument for so many years, according to them, but still no one wants to learn the language. And English have been losing miserably, but more people want learn it every. What does really count at the end of the day? More speakers in every corner of the World or a pat in the back congratulating themselves of how they crushed their opposition.
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see. How can anybody write “no one wants to learn Esperanto”? There are hundreds of thosands in 120 countries who use it regularly. Are they not real people. I have thousands of friends who use it. Facts are stubborn things. You can ignore them, but they do no mind at all!
“new” or “artificial” languages have never, to my knowledge, been adopted voluntarily by people. This is true for Esperanto just as it is for any programming language for example.
So I’m NOT in favor of Esperanto as official language or lingua franca in Europe.
I have roamed the world, lived 15 years in the tropics in countries with over 50 languages. I speak 6 languages fluently and have made attempts to basics in 4 more, including african ones.
I know that under the current geo-political circumstances it makes sense to go for English (not Oxford English). And making mistakes, contrary to for example in French culture, is no problem whatsoever.
In a distant past it was Latin. So in the future English may have to give way to another one. But Esperanta has no chance to win that game.
Peter (of German, Dutch, Belgian, Swiss decent, living currently in Italy)
Esperanto is neither artificial nor new – it has been in use for 5 generations, since 1887. If you read Dr Geoffrey Sutton’s “Concise Encyclopedia of the Original Literature in Esperanto”, (New York, 2008: Mondial), some 740 pages in English, describing the 5 periods of original Esperanto literature, you willl see that hundreds of thousands of people from over 120 countries have learned Esperanto voluntarily. It has not been imposed – it was freely choses. The linguist Mario Pei once wrote: “to call Esperanto artificial is like calling a car an arfificial horse”. Esperanto is more like a test-tube baby: only its beginning, in 1887, was artificial. Since then it has grown and matured in daily use by a diaspora community, just as a test-tube baby becomes a child like any other child. There are several Ph.D theses describing the “natural” evolution of Esperanto.
Fellow debaters, I want to apologize for all my comments, I din’t realize that Esperanto following was a religion. Claude Piron told you the way years ago when the World was a very different place, but his words are your bible and nothing anybody says or does will move you from the path, and if their arguments are irrefutable then you can always claim to have faith. Nothing needs to be proven it was said by the One and it is final. Well, continue with your fanatical little religion, I will not interfere again. “And yet it moves”
Alejandro. Please let us know where, or who told you that the Esperanto language is a religion. It’s initiator Zamenhof, who was also nominated for the Nobel Prize, made clear that this is not true.
The readers of “Debating Europe” may be interested to know that the World Esperanto Association now enjoys consultative relations with the United Nations and is using its position to speak out in favour of the need to protect endangered languages.
See – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR7vD9kChBA&feature=related
The new online course http://www.lernu.net has 125 000 hits per day and Esperanto Wikipedia enjoys 400 000 hits per day. That can’t be bad :)
Claude Piron was a very wise man, and a close friend of mine. I have simply never heard an argument as good as his. If you read his “Pari de Langues”, you would know what I am talking about.
No wonder all of you are so preocupied with English being accepted as the Official Language in the EU, your understanding of the language is rather limited when it comes to irony and sarcasm. That’s why you inland European hate Brits so much. They laugh at you and you know it but simply can’t get the joke for the life of you. if you did you will hate them even more.
Read my comment!, I never said Esperanto was a Religion, only its following which has come to worship it to the point of being completely blind to the disadvantajes of instituting it as the Official Language in the EU, TODAY. And no offense was intended for Mr. Piron, he was a wise man with an opinion and a vision, it simply didn’t pan out. I respect him for his defense of his ideas but he didn’t have any idea how much the World was going to change in the next 50 years, neither did everybody else. I also said in another comment that making Esperanto the offical language of the EU would have made sense in its beginnings, when the EEC (European Economic Community) was formed.
Whatever the reasons for the state of affairs in the World today, it is undeniable that English is the “de facto” World language today, in science and technology, in finance and economics, and even culturally. (Who would have thought it was going to be easy to buy a “Le Big Mac” in Paris). It may not be the ideal language but neither is any of the others, including Esperanto. It is irrelevant what language you prefer, millions of people prefer another language to English but still they use English and benefit from it, in most cases more than from the use of the other language, that is the problem you have.
I just pointed out that there is so much already invested in English in the World that it will take major shifts in the behavior of the World population to make moving away from it worthwhile, and I am not talking about teaching one language to a bunch of people. EU is part of the World, and it communicate in English, mostly, with the rest of the World, not just with the Americans and Brits, which are the ones you are claiming will benefit the most from such a move.
The following called my attention: ‘In these austere times, national governments are eager to trim the EU budget, which is one reason why a recent speech by the German president was welcomed with such enthusiasm. In a keynote speech on the future of European integration in February, Joachim Gauck suggested English should become the EU’s official language: “It is true to say that young people are growing up with English as the lingua franca. However, I feel that we should not simply let things take their course when it comes to linguistic integration.” ‘ That is, in spite of representing the stronger economy in the Union and the largest population of native speakers of one of the already official languages in the EU. I don’t think that such a person will talk that way without having considered it seriously. I would listen to him if I were European.
I have never seen any people who speak both English and Esperanto fluently and who prefer to use English!! As soon as I hear foreigners struggling with their poor English, I know immediately that they have never had the good luck of being exposed to Esperanto. English is like the Model T Ford, whereas Esperanto is like the latest BMW. I say this as a native English speaker who has wide experience of using both English and Esperanto – therefore I am in a position to compare them.
Then everybody in the World would like to have a Model T, me included. But if the people at BMW fiind out about your comment they will be very upset. Way to go native speaker of English.
This reply illustrates perfectly why English is not a good choice as an international language. I do not understand part of your reply – “way to go = camino para ir”?? And it is clear from your reply that you completely missed my point. People at BMW would be delighted at my comment! This argument that “it is too late – the boat has sailed” is false. The widespread use of English at present proved that it is possible for a large part of humanity to use one language. But the instrument, English, is as imperfect at the Model T Ford, and it will be superceded as soon as people find a more efficient instrument. Its domanance is ephemeral.
Riain, are you really a native speaker of English and are saying “way to go” – “camino para ir”. Or you are not really a native speaker or you are playing a very shallow dumb act.
“The widespread use of English at present proved that it is possible for a large part of humanity to use one language”
Again, way to go, you are making my point for me. The wide spread use of English by a large portion of the World population only herald a greater widespread use. And the more we are the worse it becomes for Esperanto. You are giving yourself and your Esperanto follower friends very little hope.
If you are such a fanatical supporter of English, why do you not learn to use it properly? Is it too difficult for you? “Way to go” is meaningless rubbish, which means nothing to a native speaker. Say it in Spanish if you are unable to say it in English.
Riain, really, are you a native speaker indeed? How can you say such a foolish thing and at the same timer call yourself a native speaker. I, by definition, am not a native speaker. And I know what it means, well enough to use it ironically. But for your enlightening this is the link to the Oxford dictionary (or are you going to say they cannot speak English either?). Go learn some English native speaker.
http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/226469?redirectedFrom=way+to+go#eid63285244
Or simply Google it. https://www.google.hn/?gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=1UsfVIaxOqap8QGbtIDIBQ#q=way+to+go.
Now I really understand why you want Esperanto as a lingua franca, you are a native speaker who can’t speak English. But what would I know I am just an speaker of English as a second language, and according to such a knowledgeable native speaker as you are, a very bad English speaker. Come to think of it I now realize that is the only thing I know in English. Again way to go native speaker!
Alejandro, YES, what I doing by teaching undocumented immigrants American English – and US-American commercial and business customs, is not exactly what Marco Rubio would want me to be doing. Neither would any of the people in the GOP (conservative party) which runs Florida and which is now depriving almost 1 million people of public health care and therefore letting some of them die early. AND, yes, I know that you are an immigrant from Cuba here in the USA. For those who live in Florida, that alone speaks volumes, unfortunately, since the “exils” as they are called here, HATE anything that even smacks of idealism since it is associated with “Communism” and therefore the Castro brothers. HOWEVER, if I were not to help these people, who would? And, NO, it is not illegal to teach anyone English or anything – I think that we settled that issue with the Civil War [you might borrow a book on American history from the library]. And no, right now they need to speak American English to get jobs in Florida – not in Germany, France, China or Brazil. [I think that the topic of this forum is a lingua franca for Europe – not getting a job in Florida]. YES, my first language is GERMAN, which I acquired from birth. In order to “learn” American English my kindergarten teacher (sic) made me stand in the cloak room (a small room in classes up north where students hang their winter coats). My first grade teacher washed my mouth out with soap in front of the class if I said a word in German and mocked me. English must be taught by physical force at times, I guess. How lovely! I am sorry that I was born in the USA. The stork did not ask me before I was dropped off. I swore that I would master American English better than those who tormented me [obviously, I was the point of ridicule as a young boy after my teachers humiliated me so profoundly]. That has made me an adamant support of Linguistic Rights. We are presently in a battle for bilingual education here in SE Florida. I would like to see ALL children receive education in two languages or three. And due to our geographic location, I firmly believe that Spanish is important.I have a teaching certificate in Spanish and I read El Nuevo Herald daily, underlining new words and learning them. Fortunately, Esperanto is more helpful to me in my studies of Spanish than is English. BTW why did you not comment on my post in German? I think that you would find my level of German also rather high – do you not believe that German is a useful language? Actually, with England waffling on EU membership, I think that the FIRST step should be to showcase German as a European language.
We should not overestimate the position of English. 3.7 billion people in the world do not speak it :(
I live in London and if anyone says to me “everyone speaks English” my answer is “Listen and look around you”. If people in London do not speak English then the whole question of a global language is completely open.
The promulgation of English as the world’s “lingua franca” is impractical and linguistically undemocratic. I say this as a native English speaker!
Impractical because communication should be for all and not only for an educational or political elite. That is how English is used internationally at the moment.
Undemocratic because minority languages are under attack worldwide due to the encroachment of majority ethnic languages. Even Mandarin Chinese is attempting to dominate as well. The long-term solution must be found and a non-national language, which places all ethnic languages on an equal footing is essential.
As a native English speaker, my vote is for Esperanto :)
Thank you for your reply, it just go to show my point. When it comes to English and anything American, you are damaged goods. You have the misfortune of facing a very stupid person and now everybody that reminds you of that person has to pay for your bad experiences.
I have nothing against language instruction (I am bilingual after all and earn my bread that way), and I agree with you that it is lacking in the American educational system (having studied and been a teacher in it). I have nothing against German, in another comment I said it was a much better alternative to Esperanto for the EU. Actually I wanted to learn it before English but I needed English, German was just a luxury at the time and later I never had the need or the time to do it. I have a great respect for Germany and Germans in general and no, I am not against ideals and idealists, just against those so foolhardy they can’t see the forest for the trees.
Communism is a beautiful idea, or philosophy if you want to call it that, it is just not feasible, practical or profitable, we are only human after all. It was proven in every single place where it was tried. At no time I have stated that Esperanto is, was or will be a bad language. The discussion is about the usefulness of such language as an Official Language in the EU. I just extended it to the whole World. I don’t have to know Esperanto to know that presently it will be a bad idea to impose Esperanto to the rest of Europe and by extension to the rest of the World, since the EU is a very important economic player in the World arena.
I have heard the argument that it will contribute to linguistic diversity, because it was formed with roots of many languages. So is modern English. Another argument is that it is so much easier to learn, I agree, but among all other languages English is one of the easiest to learn, easier that my native language, Spanish, and easier than German, French, Italian, Chinese and most other languages. You should know that as well as the next guy and better than most, after all you studied at least English, German and Esperanto. Nor have I said that English should be imposed as a EU or World language (every thing if imposed lose it appeals), but I stated that English, like French once was, is the de facto lingua franca in the World today and like French it might be knocked down from it pedestal as a result of a change in the distribution of power and preferences in the world. I did say that if we wanted to go the long haul we needed to change and become One Race, One World, One Language. That I believe, call me idealist if you want, I prefer to think I am a realist.
The World today is nothing but divided and everybody wants their country, culture, language, etc. respected and preserved. And it should be, we all deserve our own identity. But that belief, together with religion will be our undoing because it blinds us to the fact that we are just brothers that got separated at birth and that have traveled different paths to get to this point.
I also did say that Esperanto is a bad choice, for the EU and for the World, simply basing my opinion in facts that are there for all to see. Esperanto is spoken, as a second language, by about 2 or 3 million people with no native speakers, English is spoken by over 400 million as a native language with the addition of at least another 100 million according to the most conservative estimates. A good deal of human culture have been translated to Esperanto, according to the statements of several debaters in this forum, I believe them, but most it has already been translated to English, at least the portion not due to English speaking persons and cultures. In the other hand most of human scientific, technological, financial and economic life today is based or disseminated in English. There no infrastructure in Esperanto but a great deal of the World infrastructure is in English. A lot, that is a real big lot, will be lost if English were to be presently discarded in favor of another language, and the biggest lost will happen if that language is Esperanto, not because it is a bad language but because it have a very little base, which is not even native and almost no (existing) influence in world affairs today.
We do need a unique language that could in time unite all people. I didn’t say it have to be English, I just said English have the best possibility of becoming it, and at the present time the least adverse effect overall. You guys haven’t said anything to convince me, or other people, otherwise. I also said Esperanto followers behave as a religion because they refuse to acknowledge reality and keep repeating the same arguments over and over but have nothing to offer in lieu of hard evidence proving their point. I believe in numbers, and numbers favor English right now.
And yes, it will benefit Americans and Brits and Australians and Canadians and every other person who already speaks English. And the rest will have put up, but it is the same scenario in the case of Esperanto, except there will be many more people who will have to put up, with a lot less benefit to justify such acceptance.
I will encourage you to continue your David fight but remember not every English speaking person thinks as the one who hurt you and even if they did, English, the language is not to blame.
Se sufiĉas scipovo de kelkaj lingvoj kaj multjara vojaĝado kaj restado en multe da landoj por havi ĝustan opinion pri la perspektivoj de Esperanto, se tio estas fidinda kriterio pri ĝusteco de opinio, tiam oni povas esplori la historion de Esperanto en kiu estis filologoj, lingvistoj, grandaj poliglotoj scipovantaj plurajn dekojn da lingvoj, ekz. Gustav Ramstedt, ambasadoro de Finnlando en Japanio kaj Ĉinio, kiu esploris lingvojn de Koreio kaj Mongolio; Géza Bárczi, membro de la Akademio de sciencoj de Hungario; la estono Paul Ariste, kiu fariĝis tre rapide unu el la plej brilaj fakuloj en eŭropa lingvoscienco. Li lernis ĝin 14-jara kaj akiris dum sia vivo aktivan scion de 26 lingvoj kaj pasivan de trideko; la brita erudiciulo Douglas Bartlett Gregor samaĝe lernis la lingvon kaj regis dudekon da lingvoj; Tibor Sekelj, jugoslava esploristo, antropologo, montogrimpisto, muzeologo, ĵurnalisto, kies verkoj aperis en pluraj lingvoj, kaj kiu estis inter la unuaj esploristoj de Nepalo; la franca antropologo kaj erudiciulo Maxime Rodinson, unu el la plej famaj fakuloj pri islamo kaj la araba mondo. Nuntempe estas Georges Kersaudy, la aŭtoro de “Langues sans frontières” en kiu li priskribis 39 lingvojn de Eŭropo. Dum sia kariero de internacia funkciulo de UN, li havis okazojn paroli, skribi kaj traduki 50on da eŭropaj kaj aziaj lingvoj, inkluzive en Esperanto; estas ankaŭ la rusa lingvisto Aleksandr Duliĉenko… Plejparto el ili lernis Esperanton junaĝe, en aĝo kiam oni ne havas antaŭjuĝojn.
Italdevena usonano, filologo, profesoro ĉe Kolumbia Universitato en Novjorko, aŭtoro de multaj verkoj pri lingvoj kaj historio de la angla, Mario Pei, esprimiĝis favore el Esperanto. Same pri Edward Sapir. Kaj nuntempe Claude Hagège, Umberto Eco (vd “La recherche de la langue parfaite”)…
Profesoro Robert Phillipson, aŭtoro de multaj verkoj en kiu li atentigas pri la danĝero de la superrego de la angla (i.a. “Linguistic Imperialism” en 1992 kaj “Linguistic Imperialism Continued” en 2010) vidis Esperanton alimaniere kiam li povis observi la disvolviĝon de la Monda Kongreso de Esperanto okazinta en Prago en 1996 : “Cinikeco pri Esperanto estis parto de nia edukado”. Lia edzino, Doktorino Tove Skutnabb-Kangas, uzas ankaŭ Esperanton por subteno de la lingva diverseco kaj defendo de lingvaj rajtoj. Ŝia retejo estas en la finna, sveda, Esperanto kaj angla.
Ĉiuj referencoj estas interrete troveblaj.
Don’t you understand ?
La 22an de februaro 2012, Thorsten Brants esprimis la miron de la sciencista esplorteamo pri Esperanto kiam ĝi estis aldonita al tiutempe 63 lingvoj de Google Translate :
http://googletranslate.blogspot.fr/2012/02/tutmonda-helplingvo-por-ciuj-homoj.html
L’anglais n’a pas à être la langue de l’Europe car trop difficile pour les non natifs. Proposer l’Esperanto serait la meilleure solution car étant la plus facile des langues. Lors de mes voyages, j’ai pu l’utiliser en Chine, Brésil, Cuba, Angleterre, USA, Canada, Italie, Allemagne, Danemark, Pays Bas, Irlande, Croatie, Yougoslavie, Espagne, Pologne, Russie, Suisse, Danemark. Je signale aussi que l’Anglais imposé en 1951 dans l’aviation ne convient pas car étant une des principales causes d’accidents d’avions, même des ingénieurs aéronautiques se sont plaints que cela leur posait des problèmes. Les pilotes ne comprennent pas toujours ce qu’on leur dit, en 1977 582 tués à Ténérife du à l’anglais, et il y en a eu d’autres, les ingénieurs aéronautiques rêveraient de l’Esperanto. Des gens demandent ; pourquoi l’Esperanto n’est-il pas enseigné dans les écoles puisque c’est plus facile que l’anglais, ce sont les politiciens qui sont les plus idiots notamment en France. Ceux qui le critiquent, ce sont ceux qui ne l’ont jamais essayé et qui ne connaissent pas. Moi ayant travaillé dans l’aviation durant 39 ans, j’en connais bien la difficulté, les inconvénients et les dégâts, j’en ai relevé des mètres tous les jours d’accidents et incidents. Imposer l’anglais à ceux qui ne sont pas anglais, est une honte et en plus aux petits de 3, 6 ans qui ne savent ni lire ni écrire, c’est du bourrage de crâne et le non respect des langues nationales ; en France, on voit de l’anglais à la place du Français. C’est dangereux.
There are two urban myths about English as the international language, which need to be challenged. Firstly that “everyone speaks English” and secondly “no-one speaks Esperanto” . Neither of these are true and need to be challenged.
Consider also that the failure of English in air traffic control caused the biggest-ever air crash in aviation history in Tenerife. See http://www.ipernity.com/blog/32119/240100
Brian’s point is absolutely true. People who repeat mindlessly “everybody speaks English” are merely showing that the have never studied the situation. Even here in Brussels, a very international city, it is very easy to find people who speak no English, and who manage very well without it.
The book “Communication Clashes and Aircraft Crashes” documents the number of air crashes which took place due to the use of English, a very imperfect instrument. The phrase “Descend to four zero eight”, or 408, can be understood as “Descend two four zero eight”, or 2408 – the difference is 2 kilometres – enough to cause a bad crash. Oxford English has 22 vowel sounds but only 5 vowels to express them, and English has far more monosyllabic words than most languges. Apart from Esperanto, languages such as Spanish or Italian would be far clearer, and safer in aviation.
Je suis tout à fait d’accord avec Elisabeth Lambert.
I agree with Barker, let’s debunk the urban myths, Not everybody speaks English only over 500 million and that no one speaks Esperanto, there are as many as 2 or 3 million. Although according to Barker 3.7 billion do not speak English, with a World poplulation of 7 billion that means that according to him 3.3 billion do speak English. Way to go Barker!
The Tenerife crash was not a failure of English, it was a failure of the people who was speaking it. Just like it (that means English) is failing you now, miserably.
La nuna temo estas, ĉu la angla estu la sola oficiala lingvo de la Eŭropa Unio?
Mia respondo estas: Nepre ne! Tio estus privilegiado de unu grupo de EUaj loĝantoj kaj diskriminacio de ĉiuj aliaj.
Cetere, kelkaj scientistoj (ekz Michele Gazzola) montris, ke tio ne ŝparus monon (aŭ tre malmulte) sed aliflanke, ege malpliigus demokration, kaj transdonus la kostojn al la ŝtatoj, KROM Britio, kiu jam havas malpli da elspezoj por fari!
——————–
En outre, quelques études scientifiques (ex de Michele Gazzola) ont montré, que l’économie serait ridicule, alors qu’au contraire cela attaquerait radicalement la démocratie. Les coûts seraient transférés aux divers états, SAUF à la GB, qui est déjà favorisé(e) de ce point de vue, et réalise déjà de GROSSES économies.
Estas multlingva tutmonda peticio por alternativo. La ideo estas aprezata ankaŭ sur la aliaj kontinentoj. Kurioze, la plej forta subteno venas el Brazilo. Mankas ĉefe informado por venki tabuojn kaj antaŭjuĝojn. Bonvenaj estos pliaj tradukoj.
Il y a une pétition mondiale multilingue pour une alternative. L’idée est appréciée aussi sur les autres continents. Curieusement, le soutien le plus fort vient du Brésil. Il manque surtout de l’information pour vaincre les tabous et les préjugés. D’autres traductions seront bienvenues :
Deutsch :
https://www.avaaz.org/de/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
English:
https://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Español :
https://www.avaaz.org/es/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Français
https://secure.avaaz.org/fr/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/?pv=659
Italiano :
https://www.avaaz.org/it/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Nederlands :
https://www.avaaz.org/nl/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Polski :
https://www.avaaz.org/pl/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Português :
https://www.avaaz.org/po/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Română :
https://www.avaaz.org/ro/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Türkçe :
https://www.avaaz.org/tr/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
ελληνικά (grec/greka) :
https://www.avaaz.org/el/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
한국어 (coréen/korea) :
https://www.avaaz.org/kr/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
עברית (hébreu/ hebrea) :
https://www.avaaz.org/he/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
日本語 (japonais/japana):
https://www.avaaz.org/jp/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Pусский (russe/rusa) :
https://www.avaaz.org/ru/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/ _____________________________________________________________
1) 中文 (chinois/ĉina)
2) საქართველოს (géorgien/kartvela)
3) नेपाली (népalais/nepala)
4) Հայերեն (arménien/armena)
5) Қазақ (kazakh/kazaha)
6) македонски (macédonien/makedona)
7) cрпски (serbe/serba)
8) български (bulgare/bulgara)
9) українська (ukrainien/ukraina)
10) Català (catalan/kataluna)
11) Dansk (danois/dana)
12) Gaeilge (irlandais/irlanda)
13) Hrvatski (croate/kroata)
14) Icelandic (islandais/islanda)
15) Latviešu (letton/latva)
16) Lietuvių (lituanien/litova)
17) Magyar (hongrois/hungara)
18) Malti (maltais/malta)
19) Occitan (okcitana)
20) Shqip (albanais/albana)
21) Slovenčina (slovaque/slovaka)
22) Svenska (suédois/sveda)
23) Tiếng Việt (vietnamien/vjetnama)
https://plus.google.com/105997959748403756528/posts/fKzrKFQzjuc
La peticio por Esperanto disponeblas en multaj lingvoj.
Ĉi tie, en oficiala EUa forumo la demando estas starigata nur en la angla, kvazaŭ la angla estus la oficiala EUa lingvo. Tio malobservas la EUan traktaton, laŭ kiu ĉiuj lingvoj estas samrajtaj.
Jen EUa karikaturo de demokratio, kiel “Eurovision” estas karikaturo de eŭropa kulturo.
De petitie voor Esperanto is beschikbaar in veel talen. Hier, in dit officieel forum van de EU wordt de vraag alleen in het Engels gesteld, alsof het Engels de officiële taal van de EU zou zijn. Dit is een miskenning van het EU-traktaat, dat stelt dat alle talen gelijke rechten hebben.
Dit is een EU-karikatuur van democratie, zoals Eurovisie een karikatuur is van de Europese cultuur.
People who advocate an English-only Europe have not thought the financial consequences through. Professor Grin confirms what Dominique has pointed out. See http://www.lingvo.org/GRIN_en.pdf
It’s so against EU’s idea of equality of nations and cultures!
English is an imperialist language. It should definitly not be the only official language of the EU. Linguistic democracy requires multilingualism.
No. It would continue to promote an elitism when only those who can afford the time and expense to learn this difficult language could take part in discussions. We should use Esperanto instead, it’s far easier to learn.
Est-ce un site anglais ? Ils ont tous la maladie d’écrire en anglais, c’est vraiment une maladie. Moi je n’écris pas en anglais. Et je redis non à l’anglais. Des enfants français du primaire me disent qu’ils voudraient bien qu’on leur enlève l’anglais, ils n’aiment pas l’anglais. Ah quand les politiciens français écouteront ils ce qu’on leur dit, ah quand les politiciens anglo américains cesseront ils de mettre de l’anglais partout et ne l’imposeront-ils plus ? Je milite pour le non au tout anglais, non à l’anglais pour tous, non à l’anglais partout. Ne pas imposer l’anglais à tous les Européens. Ceux qui ne veulent pas, qu’on les laisse tranquilles plutôt que leur bourrer le crâne à la télévision, chansons en anglais prédominant la langue de la République, films américains avec violence prédominants à la télévision, nous ne voulons pas américaniser notre pays ni l’angliciser qu’on nous impose. Il faut arrêter d’angliciser les non anglais et l’Europe et les entreprises aussi , ils ont bien du mal. Je termine en dit non à l’anglais.
Comme irlandais et anglophone de naissance, je suis d’accord avec Elizabeth Lambert. Imposer le “globish” serait un apauvrissement culturel de l’Europe. L’espéranto existe, qu’on le veuille ou non, et s’utilise de plus en plus dans 120 pays. Beacoup de contributeurs semblent ignorer ce fait. Mais un fait, c’est un fait.
Al la estimata sinjorino Elisabeth LAMBERT,
Permesu al mi traduki vian mesaĝon por tiuj, kiuj ne regas la francan. Kompreneble mi ankaŭ pretas Esperantigi interesajn anglalingvajn mesaĝojn, se mi havas la tempon. Antaŭdankon al tiuj, kiuj volas helpi.
Sinjorino Elisabeth LAMBERT skribis:
Ĉu ĉi tiu retejo estas angla? Ĉiuj havas la malsanon skribi angle, tio estas vera malsano. Mi ne skribas angle. Kaj mi ripetas: “Ne al la angla”. Francaj bazlernejaj infanoj diras al mi, ke ili ŝatus, ke oni forigu de ili la anglan, ili ne ŝatas la anglan. Ha! Kiam la francaj politikistoj aŭskultos, kion ili diras? Ha! Kiam la anglo-usonaj politikistoj ĉesos antaŭenigi la anglan? Kiam ili ĉesos altrudi ĝin? Mi kampanjas por “Ne al la angla. Ne al la angla por ĉiuj. Ne al la ĉiea angla.” Ne altrudu la anglan al ĉiuj eŭropanoj. Lasu tiujn trankvilaj, kiuj ne volas ĝin, anstataŭ televide plenŝtopi ilian kranion per anglaj kantoj superregantaj la lingvon de la respubliko, per usonaj televidaj filmoj kun ofta perfortado. Ni ne volas usonecigi nian landon nek trudite angligi ĝin. Nepre ĉesu la angligon de la neanglaj kaj de Eŭropo kaj ankaŭ de la firmaoj, kiuj havas problemojn. Mi konkludas dirante “ne al la angla”.
No,
Never ever. French german and English is perfect
Should the most easy in it’s structure language with the poorest dictionary and the poorest grammar be Europe’s official language? Noooooo. Should it be madatory as a second language? Yeap. why not… You can learn to speak and write english in 60-80 days…
As a Belgian – the only language which allows young people of both sides to speak to each other is… English (that has to do with Flemish-Walloon phobias of one another). So perhaps having a common second language is a way forward – whatever we choose.
Origine la problemo ne estis inter flandroj kaj valonoj. La lingvo de ambaŭ estis superregata de franclingva “elito”.
La naskiĝo de miaj flandraj gepatroj en flandra urbo estis devige registrita en la franca. Kaj flandraj kaj valonaj “elitoj” uzis la francan por distingi sin de la simpla popolo (kampanoj, laboristoj, servistoj, …)
Het probleem was aanvankelijk niet tussen Vlamingen en Walen. De taal van beiden werd overheerst door een franstalige “elite”. De geboorteaangifte van mijn Vlaamse ouders in een Vlaamse gemeente werd verplicht geregistreerd in het Frans. Zowel Vlaamse als Waalse “elites” gebruikten het Frans om zich te onderscheiden van het eenvoudige volk (boeren, “werkvolk”, knechten en meiden, …)
It pretty much already is
European English is the language of Europe.
yes of course.
Not at all, specially since the UK seems to want to leave EU. Official languages should be French and German, and also Dutch and Italian due to its founder character. Maybe we could use Spanish, Swedish and some Eastern language, but not sure about it.
Estimata sinjoro Marçal Puigdefàbregas, permesu al mi Esperantigi vian mesaĝon, por ebligi al neanglalingvanoj kompreni ĝin.
Sinjoro Marçal Puigdefàbregas skribis:
Tute ne, precipe ekde kiam ŝajnas, ke UR volas forlasi la eŭropan union. Oficialaj lingvoj devus esti la franca kaj germana, kaj ankaŭ la nederlanda kaj itala pro ilia fondinta eco . Ni eble povus uzi la hispanan, svedan kaj iujn orientajn lingvojn, sed pri tio mi ne certas.
Estimata sinjoro, mi reagas al via mesaĝo:
Plej simple kaj juste estas uzi la neŭtralan lingvon Esperanto, speciale konstruita por esti facile lernata kaj internacie uzata.
Dear Marçal Puigdefàbregas,
Most easy and equitable is using the neutral language Esperanto, specially constructed to be easily learned and internationally used.
The second official language of Europe.. Not the only one.. As it is already if you think about it.
wat ever cos english is international language without it coz everybody doesnt know how to speak ader foreign language
YES !
Well English is international language.
If you have noticed, we don’t write in Dutch here.
Sooner or later it will be the most important language. That does not mean that other languages will disappear, but for communication in general English is the most important tool in Europe and on our planet.
αργα η γρηγορα θα μαθετε να μιλάτε μια σοβαρή γλωσσα.
συνεχιστε
No way!!!!!
Yes…but make sure the UK has to teach its citizens one of the others to at least B1 level.
No
Hundred and more years ago, English language was leading trade language, and French was diplomatic language….and still are….
english and spanish,
I would like to get Latin ad the Official language of the EU.
I would like to get Latin ad the Official language of the EU.
This is a non-sense question! All the EU languages should be treated equally and equally spoken all around the EU!
This is a non-sense question! All the EU languages should be treated equally and equally spoken all around the EU!
Estimata sinjoro Carlos Sousa,
permesu al mi Esperantigi vian mesaĝon.
Sinjoro Carlos Sousa skribis:
Jen sensenca demando! Ĉiuj EUaj lingvoj estu samrajte traktataj kaj parolataj tra la tuta EU!
… kiel estas konsentite en la fonda EU-a traktato, se mi bone memoras.
Absolutely. Just as a means of communication. French, Spanish or German are not going to become the dominant language in the world any time soon.
It is essential to have a common language we can all communicate with and English ist just already halfway there. So it should be mandatory for all schools to teach English anywhere, as English is just part of any good education nowadays. It should not be mandatory for you to speak english, but any official business should be made available in English by the authorities in Europe. Contracts in English language should be valid in the whole of the EU. If you then choose to not beeing able to communicate or do business with almost everyone in the EU, thats you choice.
English is lingua franca pretty much all over the globe, so I agree with it being mandatory in european schools, but not with bein the only mandatory one.
Esperanto.
Without a doubt!
I think one of the good things of europe is the diversity of languages, I think every european should know how to speak English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, German and even Rusian. the more languages one speaks the better. making a language such as English as oficial is downgrading the diversity.
Yes
NO, the English are so EU sceptic, how are you going to have English as the official language of the EU? Don’t the other countries and nations count?
No, not whatsoever.
Yes! Let’s be practical about it rather than political. It is the easiest for all of us.
I am French and I think it should, or much better should be Esperanto.
yes
Yes!!
Yes!!!
No way!
The question was in English, so are all the answers. Let’s keep it simple.
yes. why is there even a debate?!
Diversity is a strength
Я говорю по Русски. :Ю
Why not to be Greek one of the official laguages?I know that the students are learning and speaking greek in many schools in Europe.
Yes.
English and French!
Yes
There should be no official language in the EU, like in the US ;)
sim.
Българският е на 2000 години език!
Eh ben….si rien que là c’est l’bordel j’imagine c’que c’est pour le reste….unanimité impossible sur le sujet et sur beaucoup d’autres…. La cOmission tranchera et choisira….le globish comme ca tout le monde sera d’accord pour être contre.
I think English should be the official language of EU!
I am for English as it already is the go-to language to communicate with people from different countries.
Nevertheless, if I don’t take this into account, ideally I would prefer French as it would give Europeans a stronger sense of community by differentiating us from the USA and by making learning other latin languages easier.
In any case- notwithstanding the official language- I think the best is to educate people from a young age to learn many different European languages. If the EU is truly a community of many nations, its citizens should understand more languages than one or two and in this way be able to access different cultures
Christiana, The question is not to choose a main “Lingva franca” for Europe, but to discuss if it should be the ONLY one!!!
Yes, english is the main language TAUGHT in Europe, so it is used (it’s logical, though unfair), BUT it’s injust, not democratic, and not very efficient for everybody.
Please DO read the other comments, especially those who explain why multilinguism (with or without ESPERANTO) is a better choice.
English IS NOT so known as you imagine. The reality is distorted by the mediatic discourse, itself a reflection of the vision of the dominant classes.
I agree at 85% with the French lady (Elisabeth Lambert) who wrote (very angry), that she is fed up with english.
En fait je suis parfois désespérée de la courte vue des foules.
On me rappelait récemment l’expérience de Asch sur le CONFORMISME
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exp%C3%A9rience_de_Asch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
On présente trois lignes à la personne testée. Spontanément, elle identifie la ligne la plus longue. Mais… si auparavant elle a été témoin de réponses fausses (par des comparses) elle va se mettre à douter.
Il en est de même pour la question des langues. Si on laissait les citoyens juger de la question, ils répondraient massivement: “Je veux que ma langue soit utilisée parmi les autres, et que tous les documents européens soient traduits pour moi”. MAIS comme les dominants qui ont le pouvoir médiatique derrière eux, leur répètent sans arrêt des mensonges sur l’anglais, alors même les gens qui n’ont pas intérêt à adopter l’anglais se mettent à répéter, comme des perroquets, que cette langue est très adaptée.
Cela me met en colère, moi aussi.
Ah, au fait… JE PARLE plus de 5 langues (pratiquement 7en fait: 5 langues au niveau C1 et 2 au niveau A2)
VIVE l’ESPERANTO !!!
Chloe Potamiti
No! I want a europe of diversity!
Not the official language since the official languages are all the languages of the EU because we are all the same and Britain is not more importante than the other countries. Consider also that the UK doesn’t have a “history of love with the EU”, so it wouldn’t even make sense. However, due to the importance of English internationally (not only in the EU), it must be well done at schools of course!! But this is not related to the EU, it is just a matter of education.
Yes
Yes. In Sweden it’s been mandatory to learn English and many students continue to learn German or Spanish.
Hah, no.
Apprendre le Chinois, ça, c’est une valeur sûre !lol
No! Because English language it’s very poorly made!
No of course not! Il devrait y avoir au moins aussi le français comme langue véhiculaire de l Europe !!
TALL DREAM?
no way. …all languages are official and this is the wealth of Europe
αντερστανδ?
Yes,definitely….very difficult to learn math in your native tongue.!!!
Why not Esperanto? Doesn’t hurt any national feelings and I was told it is easier to learn.
You are right. Those who want English simply do not know anything about Esperanto.
As a Brit, I just wanted to say that I don’t think ANY language should be made the official language of the EU. English is already being learned by so many anyway and it will only grow. Why force it on people and provoke opposition when they may just adopt it as a second language anyway?
That being said the EU should definitely provide for anyone to be able to learn English – and if possible, any EU language. And yes, the UK government’s attitude to language education is disgusting.
Why do you use the word official English should be the international language that everybody speaks but there should be no official language that’s like having an official religion being nice is the official religion after that people can practice whatever they want
We think that YES, learning English as a foreigner language should be mandatory. When you visit Norway you can communicate in English even with those who represent older generations.
In Poland, (I think mainly because of communism) people didn’t care foreign languages as much as they should. They haven’t seen the reason to learn other languages because to go abroad was like mission impossible. There were some exceptions of that like Wojciech Mann (polish journalist) for sure :)
Luckily now things have changed and we are trying to do our best to communicate (to bee understood) – not only with the residents of UE but also while travelling all over the world.
It is very important to give young people the reason to learn other languages. If Euro wouldn’t be so expensive for us, we could travel more and have more reasons to learn not only English but many more languages. But I see the point that it is also about self-motivation. And there’s no need to look for excuses like “expensive Euro” or “communism” (that has gone with the wind of changes long time ago)! :) Young people of Poland see that, know that and are full of ambitions to see the world and be the citizens of the World :) Greetings!
Where is it not?
Yes, it should….even for French people
yes
Yes englisht must be the only official language. English is spoken language in four continents, thats the reason. In America, Australia, Canada, Britain,and so many other countries.
I think the matter should be assessed the other way round: all the European countries shuld take English as official language in tandem with their local language…
In facts, the problem is not dealing with EU institutions but with every single European country and their bureaucracy, with which you are more or less obliged to understand their language (and unfortunately Italy is one of the worst example in this matter)….
But, apart from that, knowing English is not enough anymore: I strongly advocate the goal of knowing two foreign languages (at least) at an early age…
Yes!
Maybe it could be three like the working languages in the EU institutions (encglish, fench, spanish). It makes sense…. :)
NO!!!
Latin should!!!
Paulo, le latin est une langue difficile à apprendre. Et ce choix (élitiste) serait défavorable à l’Europe du nord et du centre (scandinaves, germains et slaves). NOUS DEVONS conserver le plurilinguisme à tout prix. C’est la seule option démocratique. Mais si vraiment on veut une langue COMMUNE, alors l’espéranto est un bien meilleur choix.
————–
Paulo, el latín es un idioma difícil de aprender. Y esta decisión (elitista) sería desfavorable para Europa del norte y central (escandinavo, germánico y eslavo). Debemos mantener el multilingüismo a toda costa. Esta es la única opción democrática. Pero si realmente queremos lenguaje común, en este caso el esperanto es una opción mucho mejor.
¡ infórmate ! http://lernu.net
https://www.facebook.com/groups/esperanto.hispanio/?ref=ts&fref=ts
Paulo, Latin is NOT an easy language to learn. And so you would give a handicap to the people of northern europe. Only multilinguism is democratic. We have to keep language diversity. And as a “lingva franca”, there is esperanto, wich is a better choice.
———-
Fakte mi koleregas vidi kiom misinformataj estas la homoj, kaj ankaŭ kiom malaltruistaj kaj eĉ stultaj kelkaj estas… Tiom lacige ĉiam klarigi, ĉiam rekomenci. Estas la lukto de terujo kontraŭ ferujo! :-(
I think the matter should be assessed the other way round: all the European countries shuld take English as official language in tandem with their local language…
In facts, the problem is not dealing with EU institutions but with every single European country and their bureaucracy, with which you are more or less obliged to understand their language (and unfortunately Italy is one of the worst example in this matter)….
But, apart from that, knowing English is not enough anymore: I strongly advocate the goal of knowing two foreign languages (at least) at an early age…
Giulio, mi pare che c’è qualcosa che non hai preso in conto: il fatto che tutti gli alunni d’Europa debano imparare l’inglese durante —_migliaie_— da ore, mentre gli alunni inglesi NON HANNO da fare questo, è già un’ingiustizia maggiore che quasi nessuno denuncia! QUESTO NON È DEMOCRATICO per niente.
Non pensare che solo l’Italia abbia delle difficoltà coll’apprendimento dell’inglese. Tutti (forse un po’ di meno i Tedeschi o i popoli del norde, ma anche loro un po’) : anche noi Francesi, gli Spagnuoli, Italiani, Hungaresi, Polachi (che a volte preferiscono imparare l’italiano) . Ma è uno sforzo che fa perdere molto tempo.
Tu hai scritto in inglese, perché probabilmente, fai parte (come io) della gente educata. MA SI DOVREBBERE pensare anche alla gente più povera. Anche loro hanno il DIRITTO di capire quello che si decida per i popoli, no?
Anche a me piaccerebbe se tutti possero parlare due lingue straniere. Ma questo è una visione “ideale” e dunque irrealistica.
Il solo modo per raggiungere questo sarebbe promuovere la lingua propedeutica “esperanto”, come prima lingua straniera per molti (infatti quasi tutti, o almeno 50%), e poi, una dua, una terza, por quelli che ci riescono.
I docenti potrebbero essere formati in solamente qualche settimane. Questo pare impossible, eppure te lo dico: io l’ho imparato in 6 mesi (senza sforzo). Un professore di lingue straniere (francese, tedesco…) sarebbe pronto ad insegnare l’esperanto dopo 2 o 3 settimane.
Per favore, informati! http://lernu.net
https://www.facebook.com/groups/192148274220958/?fref=ts
no ….
Not only and not “should”! It would be useful to be the second language for all member states of E.U. simply because it’s the most widely spoken language among young people.
yes english pls
As the aim of EU is to have all citizens capable of speaking at least 3 languages spoken in EU, the problem solved! Native, other local and lingua franca.
yes & second language of each country of eu
It’s a philosophical question too… A too hard and too much important question for average citizens.
A good idea could be to organize an historical meeting which where most important European intellectual leaders would have to think about it and resolve that issue.
I think about an event similar to the Catholic’s Pope election, the Conclave.
Mass media could like following something historical like that.
no!
I think it should be Greek!
Definitely we need a common secondary language… English seems to be best candidate.
.
Whether people like it or not ‘English’ is the language of Europe.
Rather say: “Whether people like it or not, English is mainly the language of european ___middle class___ and if the poors are left on the side, I don’t care, it’s not important”
I think that the use of english as communication language is deeply undemocratic.
English is emphatically ‘not’ the language of Europe. It can only become the language of Europe if all the other languages are killed off. What a cultural impoverishment!
Seems like common sense at this stage. But everyone should have access to learning other languages as well.
Well, let me ask two leadup questions. Do you want Europeans to be able to speak to one another from Finland to Portugal? And if the answer to that is yes, how do you propose they do it?
The study of Esperanto is the fastest method.
John : It’s very easy for a British guy to be understood “everywhere” in Europe. Not at any time, because it depends on where you are (for example in the deep countryside or in a big town’s hotel). I’m French and can speak 5 languages. I had a lot of language experiences in Europe.
Let me tell this one: in 2006, in Firenze, in an hostel, I pretended not to understand a note (in english) left on my french car by the staff. It was a kind of trick I wanted to do. So I went at the reception, and ask , IN ITALIAN , what was written on it.
The girl there, who did not even notice I was speaking in HER language answered me: “YOU, French people, are dummies for languages” (“Voialtri Francesi siete nulli in lingue”).
A little angry, I answered: “Nulli? Non hai notato che sto parlando in italiano…? (…)” (“But I am not dummy, I speak to you in italian ! I can speak english, but I do prefer italian when I am in Italy. Why don’t you write in your language or in the language of the tourist?”)
And above all, I said: “Say, if a BRITISH guy come and can speak ONLY english, do you say to him that he is DUMMY? No? So please, do not think that english is the only language worth speaking!”
———————
The question is: WHAT KIND of Europe do we want? I want a place where everybody have the same rights, and with english as the main language, it is not an equal nor democratic communication.
The fact that english, though it was ____widely____ taught for more than 40 years, is not well spoken by every citizen of Europe, is the proof that it’s NOT a good solution. It’s good only for British people. :-(
So, if we want a real, an effective communication between european citizen, we have to promote and teach esperanto. It’s the only fair solution.
————–
The huge use of english does harm the expend of other languages. A friend of mine (living near Spain) didn’t succeed convince his daughter to revise her spanish lesson, saying: “If we travel someday in Spain, how will you do?”. She replied: “I will use english”.
Do you want all European become so incapable as British people in foreign languages?
ha
hahaha
Court of Justice and the Parliament would have a great time with that.
Yes absolutely.
YES!!!
isnt it already? maybe saying it should be mandatory for all pupils in first grade at primary
The other solution is people to learn foreign languages. I speak five ( and have passed exams in four of them ) and I am willing to learn more ;-)
My primary opinion on this issue is that people who aren’t EU citizens shouldn’t get any kind of say in the matter at all. No vote, not even any input. This is about the official language of the ***EU***……..if you’re not an EU citizen, it doesn’t affect you at all, so, keep quiet.
Second: I’m a native speaker of English who has learned 3 other languages, so knows what kind of hassle it is to learn one. How many of the other native English speakers here that have already pontificated on this matter can say the same? I daresay not many.
Anyway, AS a native speaker, I think English is a very bad choice. Esperanto is the way to go. Or else, some other easy, constructed language (NOT Interlingua); maybe tweak Volapük’s verb system to make it less horrifying (make it almost completely analytic; except for the basic tenses and then perfect and subjunctive/jussive counterparts) and get rid of the umlauted vowels (maybe modifying them a la Yiddish: ü > i and ö and ä > e) and make the writing of the consonents more phonemic (“J” for the “sh” sound?? c’mon!)
100% Yes!
Common language of The EU = English
Not at all! Why not French? Or even Portuguese? The European Union is NOT an organization of English speaking countries.
Cultural visibility and diversity is all Europe is about
Yes, because is de facto universal language.
Yes!
It would make things easier for everyone and would save a lot of money.
A role for Esperanto would save far more money. Professor F. Grin of Geneva calculated that a role for Esperanto could save EUR 25 billion per year, but it will not be tried due to the lack of knowledge and prejudice of so many people. Very expensive prejudices indeed!
Don’t be a hypocrite, a role for Esperanto will only directly, financially benefits (in the short to the long term) those that already speak Esperanto. Everything will have to be translated to Esperanto, at a premium given the little amount of people capable of carrying out all that work. ( NO matter how easy it is to learn Esperanto, it will take at least 10 – 20 years of an all out effort [probably many more years] to have everybody learn the language, and I doubt very mucho it will be free for the learners.
That in addition to discarding the billions dollars already invested in English infrastructure plus forcing more than a hundred million people (that is only in the EU, not counting the additional millions who will have their ha)nd forced because they heavily depend on the EU, financially and commercially) to throw away all the time, effort and money they put into learning English.
Want to be democratic, let’s put it to a vote. A general EU referendum where every person in the EU could vote which language they believe should be the EU Official Language. If the greater number of people vote in favor of Esperanto, then so be it.
What do you think, are you up to the challenge? Of course you are! You know perfectly well no such referendum will be ever held. To much at stake, what if people actually choose English? And if any other language is chosen you can be completely sure that Americans, Australians and Britishs are not going to care much
Alejandro… I thought you left the debate as your ignorance about Esperanto (what you still discuss) is to great and that’s been proven to many times here. Remember this? “So I will be the bigger man, I am bowing out of the discussion. You win. Esperanto is the best language there is”
Have you at least read the report Sean O Rian is pointing out? Or do you think you don’t even need to read it because you are a language economist as Grin?speedydeletion.wikia.com/wiki/Grin_Report
Of course you have not read it. You are assuming the change would be from one day to the next. You haven’t read it as this wouldn’t be Mr Grin’s plan.
There’s still 6 billion people (or max 5,5) that can’t say a word in English. And every generation (almost 2 billion every 20 years cause the world population will reach 11 billion people because of Asia and Africa…) would have to learn a language which is 10 times slower (and therefore more expensive) to learn than Esperanto. Do the maths, please. Read the report, please. That investment was already wasted with French and will be wasted with Chinese.
Are you European? Or weren’t you from Cuba and now American? why are you discussing so fiercely here at Debatingeurope? O.o
Those who already speak Esperanto have no strong advantage because the language is just too easy; rather it’s the existing teachers and language teaching firms with their tools and infrastructure that would step up after relatively quickly learning the language themselves.
Regarding your other point, yes we would be discarding (or rather phasing out) considerable existing investment in English, and yes it would take decades of effort being redeployed bit by bit from English to Esperanto, but in the perspective of the big play we have a win. And no-one throws away all their time, effort and money that they put into learning English because Esperanto and English would I imagine run in parallel as the international language pair for a human lifetime.
It doesn’t matter were leaving the EU!
Nein, Deutsch wird am meisten als Muttersprache gesprochen.
Das stimmt, und das ist sehr wichtig. Viele Leute, die Englisch unterstuetzen, sind nur etwas faul, denn sie haben schon Englisch gelernt (obwohl sie viele Fehler machen) und sie wollen keine andere Sprachen lerner. Aber es lohnt sich, Esperanto anzuschauen, damit Europa die Gleichberechtigung bekommt.
N-o
No, no, no.
Why would one want to make it the “only” and “mandatory”?
Any good reasons? I would like to hear!
Stop the politicians and let the people decide! Darn it!
Better still, let the market forces decide!
There are more important things in life, like employment and health!
Its the simplist language..
Have you tried Esperanto? It is 10 times easier than English.
Yes!!!!
A common secondary language would be ideal, but to make it mandatory? Definitely not. It should be personal choice. We are NOT the ussr.
YES !
yes but as secondary …………..
Yes
No!
And again this questions, how many times will You ask it?!
Yes
Must be
yes
Alberto esperanto should be:D
Hebrew!
WHAT A PITY!
Right after ‘Muricans learn to speak it properly!
Yes 100%
English is now the international language, like it or not. So it sounds natural to have it as a second language in all countries in European Union.
If you take a look at the number of speakers of the languages in the EU, the biggest group is German.
Yes, eventually it will be in the near future ,it’s cheaper and faster……
Absolutly… Yes!!
Yes
No, I don’t think so!
Yes!
No.
Kial la teksto estas skribita sole en angla lingvo? Mi parolas 4 lingvoj sed ne parolas angla lingvo. Eĉ se mi parolus 5 aŭ 6 lingvoj neniam povus paroli kun ĉiuj europanoj. Kial oni devus konsumi multa da tempo por lerni multaj lingvoj kiam estus suficxe lerni Esperanton en malmulta da tempo? Aliaj europanoj konsumas lia tempo por lerni Angla kaj angleparolantaj dume povas lerni Matematiko, scienco KTP… Tio ne estas demokrata.
Perchè il testo è scritto solo in inglese? Parlo 4 lingue ma non l’inglese, anche se parlassi 5 o 6 lingue non potrei parlare con tutti gli europei. Perchè dovremmo sprecare molto tempo per studiare l’inglese quando in pochissimo tempo potremmo imparare l’esperanto? Gli altri europei sprecano tanto tempo per imparare l’inglese mentre gli anglofoni possono nel frattempo studiare materie scientifiche ecc…Questo non è democratico
Con lo de democrático también la tienen perdida. Cuando el pueblo participa la mayoría decide. Que sólo voten los ciudadanos de la UE.
Comparemos votos
Esperanto – 3 millones de votos
(Bueno en realidad en la UE son muchos menos)
Inglés – Un poquito más de 3 millones
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2436051/English-lingua-franca-Europeans-thirds-speak-language-squeezed-rivals.HTML
http://jakubmarian.com/map-of-the-percentage-of-people-speaking-english-in-the-eu-by-country/
The five most widely spoken foreign languages remain English (38%), French (12%), German (11%), Spanish (7%) and Russian (5%).
SPECIAL EUROBAROMETER 386 “Europeans and their Languages”
6
At a national level English is the most widely spoken foreign language in 19 of the 25 Member States where it is not an official language (i.e. excluding the UK and Ireland).
I don´t see Esperanto en this listmade be European for the EU
Today’s facts are the only vision you have. When the locomotive was invented in GB you would have laughed at it as parisian journalists did for example. You can’t see the potential of new ideas. You would be saying… 100% of the ways are roads! Why should we build railways? 20 years later you would say the same old song. The facts show roads are better! See! Only 5% bla bla
http://www.quora.com/History-of-Science/What-important-ideas-were-initially-ridiculed-or-rejected-by-experts
Just answer this:
-is English fair as a interethnic language? Jes/no
-Do you like unfairness?
Yes/no
-Would be English fairer and easier for everybody than Esperanto? Yes/no
Yeah. We all know the facts about English. So… is English the language people now learn the most? Yes. See? I admitt it! We both agree!
“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
—
Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)
Comparing SPECIAL EUROBAROMETER 386 “Europeans and their Languages” (2012) with SPECIAL EUROBAROMETER 243 “Europeans and their Languages” (2005), it is interesting to note that English as a foreign language remains flat at 38%. Another data point in a few years time would be useful (especially if the level of conversational fluency could be defined and verified during the survey).
Aaron Irvine, it’s funny to see that in 2001 41% of Europe knew English and in 2012 it has decreased to 38%
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_147_en.pdf
Is English loosing steam as the experts predict?
Education First confesses English is falling back in Asia. In China English won’t be so important in gāokăo anymore. In Japan it’s been some years they are giving up with English and they prefer other nations to learn their language.
After this global crisis English won’t be as popular has it ever was. That’s why I’m learning Chinese now 中文还不好， 我要学法语和生词得更努力. Humanity is blind and we are doomed to repeat mistakes over and over again. Don’t say i didn’t warn you when all your kids will have to waste so many hours learning Chinese as those Chinese are now wasting to stutter some English. Lack of empathy and respect for one another… That’s always the big problem everywhere… you like facts… there you are.
Mi tamen havas esperon. Iam homaro valorskale evoluos sub demokratia kaj justiga bazo. Eble la baldaŭ lanĉota kurso ĉe Duolingo iom ŝanĝos la etoson
I totally agree. “All truth passes through three stages. First (years ago when talk about English as a World language started), it is ridiculed. Second (now, of course I don’t have to enlighten you about the opposers, fanatical as they are), it is violently opposed. Third (some years from now when those said fanatics realize the futility of their fanatism), it is accepted as being self-evident.”
For the benefit of all, including the fanatics.
Yes
Yes.
Escribo en español por que yo se muy bien que después de 20 años no escribe como un native. Pero Alejandro no pasaría los ‘competency exams’ con su inglés. Se trata de los exmanines que son necesarios para progresar en el programa de doctorado para tener el derecho escribir una disertación. En los EEUU escribiendo inglés como él, el no tendría el permiso hasta comenzar con el programa. De verdad, es una lastima por qué muchos extranjeros talentados nunca pueden obtener su doctorado – solo por qué su inglés no es perfecto. Después de 20 años y mucho mucho trabajo todavía no me siento seguro en español – pero mi Esperanto – pase mucho menos tiempo con el studio – es quasi perfecto. Es un hecho – like it or lump it.
Unfortunately Kvasnak I am not after a Doctorate. I already got my degree from an American University and they didn’t find anything wrong with my English, which, by the way, is a lot better than your Spanish. I am not criticizing, you are trying, it is not very good after twenty years and a lot of work but at least you are trying. But, what is wrong with my English?, or are you a native speaker like another one here that told me “way to go ” was meaningless rubbish and translated it as “camino para ir”. That will make a great English teacher.
You see, this debate is supposed to answer the question:
“Should English be the only official language of the EU?”, many people said yes, many said no. I personally don’t think that opinions presented here will make a great difference. But this debate has become a platform for the advocacy of Esperanto as the Official Language, in spite of the fact that very few European speak it, or are even interested in the language. Otherwise there would be a lot more speakers than there are. And they aren’t even making a very good case against English, they are just yelling “Esperanto is better” and then babbling a lot of nonsense.
I have only pointed out that reality, as it stand today, favors the adoption of English.
1. It is the language more people speak in the EU. In total not just native.
2. There are trillions of dollars invested in English infrastructure.
3. Most commercial transactions are carried out in English, within and without (what, are you going to tell me that I can’t use it that way?) the EU.
It is the “de facto” main language in the EU and the World. As of today. Tomorrow? Who knows.
4. It is the language most used in finance, economy, medicine, science and technology in the World. More important in the research side than in the application side, but important nonetheless.
5. It is the language that more people in the World aim to learn because is seen as the language that will provide them with the greatest benefits.
That is what I postulated from the beginning. Good or bad English, that make sense, and it is not even original. There are lots of people who have said it before. People with way better credentials than anybody here, me included.
My only sin was to ask the Esperanto fanatics if Esperanto could beat that. Now!, not forty, fifty or one hundred years from now, after throwing away all the money, time and effort invested in English so far. By individuals and government alike. And similar reasons make German, French, Spanish and just about any language in Europe better than Esperanto,
Additionally, the question was posted in English so the debate should be carry out in English. It is the only way that people will be able to understand each other. Not very democratic? I don’t know if the same question was posted in other languages. If it wasn’t then I will have to agree with that statement. The democratic solution is not a polyglottic debate in which people can’t understand each other but to post the question in all the languages within the European Community and then tabulate the answers. That way people can expose their arguments in a language that all other participants in that particular debate could understand and answer in. That will be the democratic way of voicing every country concerns.
The fact that a few people here speak, or say they speak, more than one language is irrelevant. They could participate in all other debates carried out in the languages they are fluent in if they so desire, no one will stop them.
Now, if what I just said is so badly stated, in an English so unintelligible as to bother the other participants, then I have no choice but to excuse myself. I received my first English lessons from a bunch of idealistic fanatics that also wanted to impose to the World a lot of nonsensical ideas people didn’t want, and that didn’t work. Fortunately, there are just a few left, but on their way out.
And Alex I knew you were petty and was expecting your petty reaction, like Riain. But then again petty individuals can have nothing but petty ideas. And there is no winners here, this is just a debate started to answer a question none of you have tried to answer properly.
You see, this debate is supposed to answer the question:
“Should English be the only official language of the EU?”, many people said yes, many said no. I personally don’t think that opinions presented here will make a great difference.
There are more that half a billion people in the EU and only a few comments. (about 1160) and most of them are from a bunch of Esperanto advocate that don’t represent the average European.
That doesn’t say much for the interest and involvement of the people. Chao!
@Robb Aprendo español. Mi español es muy malo, pero puedo leer su mensaje :-)
@Alejandro Carlos
Babbling nonsense? The only one I’ve seen doing that is that Tarquin fellow. Otherwise, everyone has their point of view, and the right to defend it as they will. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make it babbling nonsense, just as the fact that some people don’t agree with you doesn’t make what you say nonsense, or make you a fanatic.
I haven’t noticed anything terribly wrong with your English, by the way, it’s definitely better than that of many of my relatives (native speakers, but where they learned their grammar and spelling… )
As for the Esperantists not representing the views of the average European, we can also note the large number of comments from Americans, who aren’t European at all…
Thank you Christa H. I do agree with you that everybody have a right to express their opinion without risking offense. But it stand to reason that when someone offend you they are granting you the right to offend them back.
And you have to excuse all of us American for giving our opinion in a forum in which apparently we are not welcomed, but besides the innate stupidity European want everybody to believe is an American genetic trait, maybe, just maybe we felt we could put forward our opinions seeing how European are constantly criticizing America and Americans, and the way we do things, and continuously trying to tell us how we should do things despite not being Americans. When you freely and constantly criticize your neighbors you can occasionally expect a little pay back. Also, there are more Americans living in Europe, many of them naturalized, that there are Esperanto speakers worldwide. I believe that gives us just a little bit of a right to express our opinions, not that we need to live in the EU since this is a public debate.
So I want to apologize for all of us American for not noticing that after the question it is clearly stated that only European ought to participate.
Oops! It looks like what I said didn’t come across quite right. That might have been the comment I made at one in the morning :-( I wasn’t targeting you, Alejandro, although now that I read the comment again, I can see that it looks that way. You made an observation about the small number of comments in this thread compared to the population of the EU, and that many of those are from Esperanto supporters who don’t represent the average European. I then pointed out that there are also quite a few comments from Americans. Are you going to contend that Americans do represent the average European? I was merely making an observation, not trying to offend anyone, or to say that Americans are not welcome in this discussion. If I thought that, I wouldn’t be here; I’ve never been out of the US in my life! I sincerely apologise for the misunderstanding, and will try to be more careful with my wording in the future.
It would be the absolute disgrace for Europe to quit its multilingual vision. It will mean that practicability wins over values,
Estimata Alexandros, permesu min traduki vian mesaĝon en Esperanton kaj en la nederlandan:
eo: Estus la absoluta malhonoro por Eŭropo forlasi sian multlingvan koncepton. Ĝi signifus, ke praktikeco superus valorojn.
nl: Het zou een absolute oneer zijn voor Europa zijn veeltalig concept op te geven. Dat zou betekenen dat het praktisch zijn het zou halen van waarden.
De Cooman, thank you for the help but at the risk of being ungracious let me say that I not only didn’t ask for it but that if I have wanted to express my opinions in any other language I would have stated them in those other languages. Although in all probability I would have gone to a debate in which the people participating spoke those languages. Not to be impolite.
No
Obviously NOT!!!
ESPERANTO
Wake up, please!
No it should not !
It probably should be one of those three though:
English, French or German
French!
Yes!!!
Yes 1000000000%% rite
Yes
Mi volas diri ke la angla lingvo estas tre malfacila por la homoj kiuj ne estas anglaj kaj maljusta ; por la franca, estas same, la franca lingvo estas malfacila por homoj ne francaj, do la plej bona solvo estas Esperanto, la plej facila lingvo por ciuj kaj justa lingvo, la angla estas kaùzo de multaj akcidentoj en aviado, miskomprenoj car estas tro malfacila, la homoj ne elektas la anglan, oni trudigas al ili, estas vera honto, trudigi eksterlandan lingvon al homoj kiuj ne estas anglaj. Do, mi diras ne al la angla lingvo, ne estas bona solvo, ciu lando devas gardi lian lingvon kaj Eùropo devas promociigi Esperanton. Je n’écris là pas en anglais, ni en Français, mais en Esperanto, il est plus facile pour moi d’écrire en Espéranto qu’en anglais qui m’a été imposée et que je n’ai jamais pu parler ni écrire, car trop difficile, je n’ai pas appris l’Esperanto pendant 6 ans pour le parler couramment et ça m’agace de voir des gens ignorants de tout cela.
Mi plene konsentas kun Elisabeth Lambert. Je suis tout à fait d’accord avec Elisabeth Lambert.
No
Of course NO , STOP cultural imperialism !
No :)
definitly yes
Stop à l’anglais, stop à l’impérialisme linguistique. L’Espéranto est une bonne solution pour l’Europe qui est mieux que l’anglais et qui peut être mis en place si les politiciens n’étaient pas aussi bêtes, et des gens qui critiquent ce qu’ils ne connaissent pas et ce qu’ils n’ont pas essayé. Mi je critique l’anglais car j’en connais la difficulté, les inconvénients et les dégâts. Non à l’anglais pour l’Europe, non au tout anglais, non à l’anglais pour tous, non à l’anglais partout. Soyez plus nombreux à apprendre l’Espéranto et à le diffuser, c’est la bonne langue et l’anglais la mauvaise qui vous coûte des milliards .
Soyez plus nombreux à apprendre l’Espéranto et à le diffuser, c’est la bonne langue, l’anglais la mauvaise, ceux qui critiquent l’Espéranto ne l’ont jamais essayé et ne le connaissent pas, je connais les difficultés de l’anglais, les inconvénients et les dégâts, ce n’est pas bon d’imposer une langue nationale à ceux qui n’en sont pas nés, ils vous imposent l’anglais, donc stop à l’anglais et stop à l’impérialisme linguistique, choisissez l’Espéranto. Telle est ma conclusion.
I think that Europe needs one language but it cannot be discriminative, therefore it cannot be English. Esperanto, for how hard it can be to teach, is the best solution. No one is mothertongue and we will be all equal infront of it!
Yes.
Yes.
Yes
There is no other viabile choice :)
This is simply not true, and can only be written if you have never looked at Esperanto in practice. Is it logical to ignore something which may be far more efficient than English?
CLASS WAR ! English speakers vs the unfortunate non English speakers.
Don’t lose your advantage by letting the much easier Esperanto being adopted and putting everyone on a level playing field. EU’s decision will have world wide implications
PS Don’t worry the decision makers already speak English.
YES! Most people in EU are natives of English language, so…
Yes..The more you learned other languages you will be super power..😊
No, no, no.
English is a terrible choice for an International Auxilliary Language.
English spelling is so difficult that it takes native speakers 5 years of study to achieve basic literacy.
Adult illiteracy is approximately 20 percent in all English speaking counties.
As for Esperanto, it is nowhere near as regular as it’s proponents claim.
If you truly want a culturally neutral second language for all people try Ido, it delivers what Esperanto falsely promises.
Eurovision illustrates the cultural impoverishment of allowing English to dominate. It was truly international when each country was required to sing in its own language. Relaxing this rules made the competition anglophone provincial. A perfect example of what Europe needs to avoid.
Mandatory? Seems everything from EU is mandatory. We have given the worthless EU too much power. As far as English, living in a country where our own language is not taught statewide and our rights are violated, english becomes the least of my worries. And no, it should be an option but not mandatory. Not everyone has a need to learn it.
The reality is that if any language ever becomes spoken by all, then within a couple of generations human laziness will make it the ONLY language spoken by any.
The key to linguistic equality is for all people to speak more than one language.
Membership of the EU should be limited to countries that have at least one other EU language, taught by native speakers of that language, at all levels of education.
Al Skeptik:
Bonvolu noti, ke la celo de Esperanto estas “helplingvo”, dua lingvo aŭ almenaŭ unu el la lernitaj lingvoj.
Gelieve te noteren, dat het doel van Esperanto is, een “hulptaal” te zijn, een tweede taal, of tenminste één van de talen, die men geleerd heeft.
Please note that the purpose of Esperanto is to be an “auxiliary language”, a second language, or at least one of the languages that one have learned.
Prava estas la atentigo de Seán Ó Riain. Antaŭ kelkaj tagoj, eble la 19an de majo, en la tagmeza TV-ĵurnalo “La Nouvelle édition” de Canal+, estis reporteraĵo pri la intelekta nivelo de anglalingvaj kanzonoj en Usono. Oni povus diri ke temas pri usona sencerbiga afero laŭ la esprimo de prof. Herbert I. Schiller. Kaj tian pseŭdo-kulturon oni volas trudi ne nur al Eŭropo, sed al la tuta mondo, al la tuta homaro. Eurovision estas karikaturo de la eŭropa kulturo.
La remarque de Seán Ó Riain est juste. Il y a quelques jours, peut-être le 19 mai, dans le journal TV “La Nouvelle édition” de Canal +, il y a eu un reportage sur le niveau intellectuel des chansons en anglais aux États-Unis. On pourrait dire qu’il s’agit d’une affaire de décervelage à l’américaine selon l’expression du professeur Herbert I. Schiller. Et on veut imposer une telle pseudo-culture au monde entier, à l’humanité tout entière. Eurovision est une caricature de la culture européenne.
France mi nomus usonanojn états-unien, ĉar laŭ la Leĝo de Identeco de Aristotelo, America, Ameriko, Amérique, América, Ameryka, Amirika, Amerėka, Amerike, Αμερική, Америка, Амерыка, Америке, ktp. estas nur diverslingvaj formulaĵoj de la origina germana vorto Amerika, kaj tial tiuj ĉiuj nomas la saman estaĵon sen escepto, ĉu ne?
Absolutely yes!
Those who vote YES may be overlooking the word “only”! A YES vote means that they wish to exclude French, a widely-used international language which is official in 29 countries; they wish to exclude German, the mother tongue of some 100 million people here in Europe; they wish to exclude Spanish, a world languge which has some 400 million native speakers; and they wish to exclude Esperanto, a language 10 times easier and more regular than English, while knowing nothing about it.
Should BULGARIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should CROATIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should CZECH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should DANISH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should DUTCH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should ESTONIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should FINNISH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should FRENCH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should GERMAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should GREEK be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should HUNGARIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should IRISH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should ITALIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should LATVIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should LITHUANIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should MALTESE be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should POLISH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should PORTUGUESE be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should ROMANIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should SLOVAK be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should SLOVENIAN be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should SPANISH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Should SWEDISH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
Somebody please explain why the above questions are any different from this one:
Should ENGLISH be the ONLY official language of the EU?
That’s OK. You don’t need to answer. I was just making sure you paid attention to the word “ONLY”. Besides, I already know that it should be Hungarian. Or should it be Latvian? No, wait, I mean Maltese. Croatian? Gosh, so many nations… I can’t make up my mind. I just think it would be unfair that it should be the language of my own country, so if all citizens of the EU agree that it shouldn’t be their own language then we’ll quickly have a fair answer.
It is an admission of defeat to use emotive words such as “fanatic” to describe those who disagree with you. Those who oppose any consideration of a possible role for Esperanto often describe the more open-minded people, who wish to consider all possible solutions, as “emotional”. They overlook the irrationality of their own advocacy of “English only”. Being based on a lack of knowledge of Esperanto, and on prejudice based on that lack of knowledge, their position has no rational base, even if it happens to be widely shared at present.
“MULTILINGUAL EUROPE” ?
EUROVISION : Ĉu lingva kaj kultura diverseco ? / Est-ce la diversité linguistique et culturelle ? — https://www.facebook.com/translatingforeurope/photos/a.248757081839480.56556.208080212573834/839099202805262/?type=1&theater
FRANÇAIS
Réponse de Jean-François Dehecq, PDG du groupe pharmaceutique Sanofi-Aventis, à la question “Quelle est la langue officielle de Sanofi-Aventis ?” :
“”La langue de communication chez Sanofi-Aventis n’est certainement pas l’anglais. Dans une multinationale, tout le monde peut parler sa langue maternelle. Dans les réunions nous avons besoin du meilleur que peut produire la matière grise des participants. Si nous imposons l’usage de l’anglais à tous, les natifs anglophones fonctionneront à cent pour cent de leur potentiel. Ceux qui le parlent bien en tant que seconde langue, seront à cinquante pour cent de leur rendement et ce taux descendra à dix pour cent avec les autres. Si nous voulons tous devenir des anglo-saxons, nous ne devrions pas être surpris que les anglo-saxons soient les seuls gagnants.”
(“L’Expansion“, novembre 2004, n° 691).
ESPERANTO
Respondo de Jean-François Dehecq, Ĝenerala Prezidanto-Direktoro de la farmacia firmao Sanofi-Aventis al la demando “Kiu estas la oficiala lingvo de Sanofi-Aventis : “Certe ne la angla. Multnacia entrepreno estas entrepreno en kiu ĉiu povas paroli sian lingvon. En kunveno, kion oni bezonas, tio estas la cerbo de la homoj. Se vi devigas ilin paroli angle, la anglosaksoj alvenas kun 100 % el siaj kapabloj, la homoj, kiuj parolas tre bone kun 50 %, kaj la plimulto kun 10 %. Volante esti ĉiuj anglosaksoj, oni ne miru ke la gajnantoj estas la anglosaksoj.“
(“L’Expansion“, novembro 2004, n° 691).
ENGLISH
To the question “What is the official language of Sanofi-Aventis ?” the Manager General of this pharmacy group, Jean-François Dehecq, answered in the magazine “L’expansion” : ” It is certainly not English. A transnational business is an enterprise in which everyone can speak their own language. In a meeting, it is the people’s brains that is needed. If you force them to speak English, the Anglo-Saxons come with 100 % of their capacity, those who speak it very well with 50 % and the majority with 10 %. When you all want to be Anglo-Saxon, no wonder if the Anglo-Saxons win”.
Mi respondas al Sro Coolman, ke li povas traduki kiel li volas. Kaj mi diras ke la lingvo kiu estus pli bona por Eùropo estas Esperanto. Estas vera honto demandi al la francino kantistino dum la eùrovisio : kiel vi ne kantas en la angla ? Estas normala por mi kanti en la franca, shi reprezentas Francio ne Britio, kaj mi aùdis diri al Rusoj kial vi ne kantas en la Rusa, estus normale ke la Rusoj kantu en la rusa sed ne en la angla ; tiu konkurso ne reprezentas la kulturojn de Eùropo se ili kantas ciuj en la angla. Kiam oni parolas France, oni malbone vidas nin. Ili prenas la homoj kiuj ne parolas angle kiel stultoj. Mi aùdis virinon en mia urbo diri : ili devas lerni la anglan, car ili plej inteligentaj ol la aliaj.
Tio volas diri ke la homoj kiuj ne scias la anglan estas stultaj, mi volis respondi al shi estas la kontraùo, Tiaj homoj ne akceptas tiuj kiuj ne scias la anglan. Estas vera diskriminacio por la popoloj ne anglaj, kaj mi diras ke plej multaj homoj devus lerni Esperanton kaj esti multe malpli da homoj lerni la anglan. Sed ili kredas ke la angla estas facila lingvo, plej facila ol ilia patrina lingvo, tio ne estas vera, la angla estas malfacila kaj la franca malfacila por la homoj ne francaj do Esperanto estus plej bona por ciuj homoj. Sed en Francio la politikistoj estas tiel stultaj .! Ili komprenas nenion.
“It is in the general interest of the United States to encourage the development of a world in which the fault lines separating nations are bridged by shared interests. And it is in the economic and political interests of the United States to ensure that if the world is moving toward a common language, it be English; that if the world is moving toward common telecommunications, safety, and quality standards, they be American; that if the world is becoming linked by television, radio, and music, the programming be American; and that if common values are being developed, they be values with which Americans are comfortable.”
David Rothkopf : “In Praise of Cultural Imperialism?”, Foreign Policy, N° 107, Summer 1997, pp. 38-53.
Eurovision ilustras aspekton de tio, kion celis gravulo de la administracio Clinton :
“Estas en la ekonomia kaj politika intereso de Usono zorgi ke, se la mondo adoptos komunan lingvon, ĝi estu la angla; ke, se ĝi orientiĝas al komunaj normoj pri telekomunikado, tiuj normoj estu usonaj; ke, se ĝiaj apartaj partoj estas kunligitaj per la televido, la radiofonio kaj la muziko, la programoj estu usonaj; kaj ke, se ellaboriĝas komunaj valoroj, ili estu valoroj en kiuj usonanoj sentu sin komforte.“
David Rothkopf : “In Praise of Cultural Imperialism?”, Foreign Policy, N° 107, Somero 1997, pp. 38-53.
Eurovision illustre un aspect de ce que visait un personnage de l’administration Clinton :
“Il y va de l’intérêt économique et politique des États-Unis de veiller à ce que, si le monde adopte une langue commune, ce soit l’anglais; que, s’il s’oriente vers des normes communes en matière de télécommunications, de sécurité et de qualité, ces normes soient américaines; que, si ses différentes parties sont reliées par la télévision, la radio et la musique, les programmes soient américains; et que, si s’élaborent des valeurs communes, ce soient des valeurs dans lesquelles les Étasuniens se sentent à l’aise.“
David Rothkopf : “In Praise of Cultural Imperialism?”, Foreign Policy, N° 107, Summer 1997, pp. 38-53.
ESPERANTO :
En 2008, teknikistoj kaj kadroj de la prestiĝa germana firmao Porsche konstatis, ke uzo de la angla konsistigas malhelpon (handikapon) :
– kunlaborantoj blokitaj, kiuj ne plu esprimiĝas en kunvenoj;
– malprecizeco de la traduko de tre specialaj detaloj, kies kompreno estas esenca;
– malrapidigo kaj eĉ haltigo de la laborprocezo, kiam nur la kunlaborantoj, kiuj regas la anglan kapablas esprimiĝi dum ili ne devige estas specialistoj pri la afero;
– dosieroj ne traktitaj, misioj ne plenumitaj pro ne sufiĉa kompreno de la enhavoj;
– la uzo de la angla sine de la entrepreno inhibas la imagon kaj inventemon de la inĝenieroj, kiuj konsistiigas ties forton…
“Schlechtes Deutsch besser als gutes Englisch“
(Malbona germana preferindas al bona angla)
“Süddeutsche Zeitung“, 11an de marto 2008
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/beispiel-porsche-sprache-in-firmen-schlechtes-deutsch-besser-als-gutes-englisch-1.292633
FRANÇAIS
En 2008, des techniciens et des cadres de la prestigieuse firme allemande Porsche ont constaté que l’utilisation de l’anglais constituait une entrave (un handicap)
– collaborateurs bloqués qui ne s’expriment plus lors des réunions;
– imprécision dans la traduction de points de détail pointus dont la compréhension est cruciale;
– ralentissement et même arrêt de processus de travail lorsque seuls les collaborateurs qui maîtrisent l’anglais parviennent à s’exprimer alors qu’ils ne sont pas forcément les spécialistes de la question;
– dossiers non traités, missions non exécutées faute de compréhension suffisante des contenus;
– l’usage de l’anglais au sein de l’entreprise inhibe l’imagination et l’inventivité des ingénieurs, facultés qui en font la force…
“Schlechtes Deutsch besser als gutes Englisch“
(Un mauvais allemand plutôt qu’un bon anglais)
“Süddeutsche Zeitung“, 11 Mars 2008
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/beispiel-porsche-sprache-in-firmen-schlechtes-deutsch-besser-als-gutes-englisch-1.292633
“Esperanto temas pri la fundamenta boneco de la homaro”
European culture has got another feature that is hardly ever mentioned in this discussion and this is: idealism. We believe that Europe is One. That’s what I call idealism. The most important element of this Oneness is: diversity. The fundamental element of Esperanto is communication in this diversity without the feeling of oppression. Esperanto is a firm attitude of fundamental goodness of humanity. That’s why it would be the best solution for Europe…
There is a brilliant documentary about Esperanto! You must see it!
http://esperantodocumentary.com/eo/about-the-film
Order the film here: Sam Green, 1237 Florida Street, San Francisco, California 94110, USA
It will change your mind.
Malgré le différent qui nous oppose, je me permettrais tout de même une suggestion à votre égard, c’est de vous carrer votre anglais à l’endroit que j’imagine.
(donc non évidemment et si vous le faites je vous garantis que ça va aller sérieusement mal pour vous)
Bien amicalement,
Wàng
May I thank Alejandro Carlos for giving Alejandro Carlos for giving Esperanto speakers the opportunity to provide facts about this relatively new language.
Esperanto is indeed a great success story. It is one of the languages in Wikipedia, ahead of Danish and Arabic. It is a language choice of Google, Skype, Firefox, Ubuntu and Facebook. Google translate has added it to its prestigious list of 64 languages.
You are most welcome! Maybe thanks to me you will be able to recruit more people willing to learn the language to the point of making it useful in a practical and economical way. I mean, you need it. Not quite 3 millions in over 100 years. More people learn English in one year than in the entire history of Esperanto.
This is a quote from “Alejandro Carlos’ about me: “Robb Kvasnak is a turncoat is always repudiated and betrayed by those he is trying to defend and joint. They are not so much in favor of Esperanto as against English and Americans and Brits. You have an American passport, you are the enemy,”
This is a pretty odd statement and one that smacks of a dictatorial, black-and-white way of thinking. This is not a football game – we are talking about creating democracy in an international setting, giving everyone a chance to participate.
Li kredas ke mi estas LA “malamiko” ĉar mi preferas aliajn lingvojn. Strange, ĉar mi instruas la anglan al enmigrantoj hispanlingvaj senkoste ĉi-tie en Fort Lauderdale. Mi ankaŭ tradukas dokumentojn por ili de la hispana en la anglan senkoste ĉar ili estas malriĉaj enmigrantoj kiuj bezonas helpon. Se mi estus LA MALAMIKO de la angla lingvo mi eble rifuzus tian senpagan laboron – sed NE. Mi helpas kie oni bezonas min, kvankam mi opinias ke la usona registaro devus akcepti dokumentojn en iu-ajn lingvo ĉar 1) ni havas la homojn por kompreni kaj 2) ne ekzistas “oficiala lingvo” en Usono.
Krom tio, mi ŝatus helpi al Alejandro en la angla – besides that I would like to offer some help to Alejandro in English.
The correct usage is “3 million” not “3 millions”. That is pretty much English 101 but, he! maybe not everyone was awake when it was pointed out in class or they were texting against a truly international solution to the language problem , who knows? If you were at the university, I would suggest that you seek the help of the writing center. Since you are not, maybe you could go to your local library and ask someone to read over your texts before you send them. That way they would be more correct, since you choose to write in American. :-)
Someone wrote: “The question was in English, so are all the answers. Let’s keep it simple”.
All the answers are obviously not in English (see one comment in three languages by Couturier Dominique as early as December 16th, 2014).
In a website promoting “to encourage a genuine conversation between Europe’s politicians and the citizens they serve”, the fact that the question is in English, and only in English, is very unfortunate. Some of the implications are:
1) All those citizens who can’t speak/read English are excluded from this debate.
2) This website does not promote multilingualism —at least in the sense of providing a platform that supports languages other than only English—, which is contrary to the policies of the EU parliament.
3) Those who can’t speak/read English and somehow want to participate in the debate, passively or actively, must do it relaying on web-translation or the kindness of people who put their effort and time to translate for others.
4) If it is considered impolite to answer the question in a language different than English, how would you consider to make a question directed to the people of 24 nations in only the language of just one of them?
5) The underlying message is that if you can’t speak English you…
a) will be excluded, no matter how many languages other than English you can
b) should feel bad and consider it a handicap
c) should feel bad if you answer in a language other than English
d) should feel an urge to learn English
e) should feel that your children must learn English to do better in life
“Let’s keep it simple”. What that really means is let’s keep it English and ignore the other 23 languages currently official in the EU.
Quite often those who oppose making English the official language of EU are criticised for harbouring nationalistic feelings. Let me tell you that anyone trying to impose the language of any one nation upon other nations is the one harbouring nationalistic feelings. It’s not the other way around. Those who oppose the imposition are the ones defending themselves from nationalistic feelings. Stop distorting reality.
I strongly agree with Robert.
Al Alejandro Carlos:
” Not quite 3 millions in over 100 years.”
eo: Ne forgesu, ke la nombro de parolantoj de lingvo kreskas laŭ eksponencialo!
nl: vergeet niet dat het aantal sprekers van een taal groeit volgens een exponentiële functie.
Iu plendis ĉar usonanoj respondas al la demando. Pri mi persone mi ŝatus aldoni ke mi ja vivis en Svislando (Lausanne), Norvegio (Oslo) kaj Germanio (Frankfurt ĉe Majno kaj Berlino), en tute 27 jaroj, kaj ke en Germanio mi partoprenis en la politiko de la Verdoj. Mi kandidatiĝis ĉe la listo de Verdoj por Ausländerbeirat en la urbo Dietzenbach. Mi ĉie integriĝis – tiel ke mi parolas la francan, la germana KAJ la norvegan – krom aliaj lingvoj. Jes, mi havas usonan pasporton, sed mi partoprenas en nia MONDO. Iomete ĝenas min la elitema sinteno de tiuj kiuj ankoraŭ volas ludeti geopolitikon kiam temas pri internacia demando. Dank’ al Esperanto mi kredas povi esprimi miajn pensojn klare, koncize, kaj korekte kaj tiel ke multaj legantoj ĉi-tie povas kompreni. – Se iu bezonas, mi povas redoni tiujn pensojn france, germane, norvege, turke, hispane, portugale kaj itale (krom nature en la usona angla – mi ne scipovas skribi la britan varion). Mi vere ne scias kion oni devas diri por kvalifiki kiel kundiskutanto en tiu forumo. Eble saĝeco ne sufiĉas sed nur eŭropa pasporto. Vere tristus se fakte es la kazo.
Eĉ se usonan pasporton vi havas via ĉeesto estas jam tre bone pravigita pro via loĝado en tiom da eŭropaj lingvoj. Mi plendis pri tiu kubano kiu ŝajne nur loĝis kube kaj usone, kaj certe ne lernis pliajn lingvojn krom la anglan kaj hispanan kaj neniel konas la multlingvecon kiu estis/estetas bazo de nia unio…
Alex: Is that your way to show your “moral superiority”, talking to a person’s back in a language you assumed that person does not understand. It sure show a lot of courage and fortitude. In your restricted mental world you assumed that I have only been in Cuba and the U.S. and that I don’t speak any other language. Well, you are wrong in both counts. You just go about making things up as you see fit to try to get your way. This only shows your true self. When you want to offend someone do it in a way that allows that person to respond. Only cowards hide.
When you post a question in a language, to establish a debate, be it English or any other, you keep the debate in that language so that all participants understand what every other debater is saying. That is the way you do a debate. If you want to get the opinion of people in other languages then post the same question is those languages and let people who understand those languages to participate with an equal footing. In a fair debate everybody ought to be able to understand everything that is said by every other debater.
In this debate the question is: “Should English be the only official language of the EU?” not Should Esperanto be the only official language of the EU?
It was posted in English so we should keep the conversation in English. Those who want to debate in other languages should open new debates in their corresponding languages.
And Rvasnak, a turncoat is always repudiated and betrayed by those he is trying to defend and joint. They are not so much in favor of Esperanto as against English and Americans and Brits. You have an American passport, you are the enemy, regardless of your position in the matter. And sad is the day in which a free man needs to justify his opinions. You are entitled to your opinion, contrary to mine as it is, and there absolutely is no need to apologize for or justify it to anybody but yourself. At least that is what I was taught in America, but apparently you have been too long out of it.
And for those who want to silence opposing voices because they are thought to be not European, this is a public debate, about a matter that although is it of great importance to the EU and should be decided by the citizens of the EU, it is also of great importance to the rest of the World since all the rest of the World will also be affected by the outcome of such decision given the stature of the EU in World affairs. And regarding the Americans, they are not going to care ne way or the other. And that statement should not be construed as a defense or endorsement of their position. Truth of the matter, the EU will continue to work with the U.S. and whether English, Esperanto or Chinese are adopted as the only Official language of the EU, the EU will continue to deal with the U.S. mostly in English.
And by the way Alex. My grandparents were from Leon, Spain. I travel with three passports, Cuban, American and (surprise), Spanish. I have been all over Europe and speak several other languages besides English and Spanish. French, Italian, German and (another surprise) Esperanto. I already mentioned that I crossed paths with the language in the early seventies, I also said that finding it of little economic and practical value I discarded it, But I never said I didn’t learn it. There you go with your assumptions. Then again this is a debate about English in English so why should I speak in any other language?
How can i assume you can’t understand “kubano”? What’s more, how can i assume you wouldn’t understand when Google translate can translate Esperanto for you?
“The Google Translate team was actually surprised about the high quality of machine translation for Esperanto”
By the way, you did also use other language here than English, a whole reply was in Spanish, as mine here was in Esperanto.
Yeah, my bad. You did once live in Spain (and i don’t know all of you, so i said “verŝajne” “probably”), congrats then. What I said too is you didn’t learned how important multilinguism is in Europe because if English would dominate the whole Europe I guess it would be nice for you (you said… Yes!).
Ok, I said certe=certainly about you having learned other languages than English and Spanish, i should have placed some probabilities there, sorry for that.
“languages to participate with an equal footing” it’s interesting /you/ say this. How can you ever participate with an equal footing with English or other ethnic languages when it’s so difficult you need a decade at least to be a little close to natives level? How could 60% of Europeans that didn’t learn English? You suddently want justice, but you can’t see the forest, again.
Yes, the question is: “Should English be the only official language of the EU?” and a lot here said “no, it should be Esperanto instead, keeping multilinguism that way” and show multilinguism talking or translating into their languages (this website “.eu” should be in other languages too. Try finding a Spanish one. Once again 60% is excluded)
Ok. Make the distinction when saying you speak Esperanto (and French etc) with having once spoken Esperanto.
The problem we have is you are too pragmatic and can’t see the potential of Esperanto while i’m not that pragmatic; well, i’m too because i currently speak (not “once learned”) big languages as English, Spanish, French, German and Mandarin Chinese.
You mock it’s speakers repeating numbers when that comparison is not a fair one (Esperanto speakers did not invaded territories, killed indigenes, colonized, have currently nations that want the world to speak their language). You mock saying in a year there’s more people having learn English than Esperanto.
You don’t want to hear about Unesco resolutions about Esperanto, Grin’s report, Ethics, long term pragmatism, maths (that “do the maths”), etc.
I made up my mind, you made up yours. I wonder why you so fiercely reply all supporters of Esperanto and so easily made facts up about it (i wonder too how could you have said so many nonsenses having “crossed paths with the language”)
Maybe you too see the potential of Esperanto comparing with English and only debate with numbers that once were and will no longer be.
It’s a pity you probably won’t be alive in 2030 to tell you “See? English is no longer the lingua franca, it’s Chinese” (or Esperanto, who knows if by then we will have decided not to waste some else’s money, time and efforts again)
There you again misinterpreting what is said in lain English.
I am not clamoring for Justice, I just said that if the question is in English let’s keep the debate in English and I said ” If you want to get the opinion of people in other languages then post the same question is those languages and let people who understand those languages to participate with an equal footing.”
You studied English but I will advise you to stick to Esperanto because you don’t understand English very well unless you are twisting things on purpose.
Actually I didn’t said yes like if I agreed with the establishment of English as the “only” official language in the EU. I said that it was the most practical way given all the reason I have stated before and you has not read. I do believe that if European are concerned with having “only” one language as the Official Language of the EU that means that they are worried for practical reasons. Like, to reduce misunderstandings and expenses related to those misunderstandings and the cost of presenting everything I a form that could be understood by every European. The matter should be put to a general referendum and allow every European to vote on it and whatever s the outcome it should be respected as the will of the people. Esperanto should be given as an option even though it is not the language of any member nation.
Thank you for the compliment, I wasn’t expecting it from you. Yes, I am a pragmatic because life has taught me that practicality trump ideals every time. The guy on foot is worried about his children eating and having warm clothes in their backs, today not fifty years from now. Ideals are good and beautiful but as any luxury we have to save today to indulge on them tomorrow. That doesn’t mean to give them up it just mean that we worry about today first and then about tomorrow. What we can do today to have a better tomorrow. And one of those things is to keep what we already have and build on that for the future not to throw everything away and start from scratch.
And please!, stop assuming. You are only fooling yourself. And yes, I will probably be still around in 2030 and beyond and it would not surprise me if Chinese becomes the lingua franca, at least in Europe. You guys will go to any lengths to spite the Americans and the Brits. I personally wouldn’t mind at all. I not only already speak Mandarin but also Cantonese (that is traditional Chinese for you, my great grandfather in my mother side was Cantonese) that will mean it will stay in the family.
I am a realist and I firmly believe that in the long run the people of the World will select one language (sort of like natural selection) and all cultures will merge and become one. And they are going to do it because it is better for them as whole. What language if going to prevail, I don’t know but I also believe that whatever that language will be it will not be Esperanto. But if in the end the people of the World decide to go the Esperanto way it will mean that I was wrong. I can live with being wrong I have been wrong before and hopefully I will be wrong again. But as of today and looking at the cards in the table, I don’t think so!
And I wonder, what will you do if English is adopted as the European only Official Language? According to your pal Riain: “Such a decision would require the unanimous agreement of 28 heads of state or government. No democratically-elected French President, German chancellor or Spanish, Italian or Polish leader is going to agree to put their own citizens at a permanent disadvantage…” I agree with him no self respecting democratically elected European leader will ever accept Esperanto to be the “only” Official Language in the EU. Although he left out a lot of other very important and progressive countries. Like the UK, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Greece. Yes, I know. You don’t believe the UK should be there, well you might get your wish. Let’s see what happens when the Brit put the matter up for a vote.
And excuse me if in the future I don’t respond to the insults I know you will throw my way, but fortunately I am not unemployed and I don’t have much time to dedicate to this. I think I made myself clear regarding my position in this matter. You might go ahead with your foolish Crusade. Hopefully you will soon get gainful employment, continue with your life and leave the people in this debate alone. さようなら (sayōnara, “goodbye”)
I have been all over Europe and speak several other languages besides English and Spanish. French, Italian, German and (another surprise) Esperanto. How many languages do you REALLY SPEAK? Because now you added Cantonese and Mandarin to your list. And Esperanto? Come on! You no longer would speak Esperanto as you said “I already mentioned that I crossed paths with the language in the early seventies, I also said that finding it of little economic and practical value I discarded it, But I never said I didn’t learn it. There you go with your assumptions”
Having once learned Esperanto how can you make up there’s no songs and it’s therefore boring? You said it: “And finally, is ther jazz or Bosa Nova in Esperanto. Blues, Country, Cha cha cha, salsa o merengue. No? then it is a boring language.”
Could I practice Esperanto and my basic Mandarin with you on skype? That way i would trust your words a little more. Send a message to aleksoesperantisto@gmail.com with your id skype name.
“I have been all over Europe and speak several other languages besides English and Spanish. French, Italian, German and (another surprise) Esperanto”
“I not only already speak Mandarin but also Cantonese”
It’s great everything we write will be here forever! You can see lies everywhere… even about personal experience with languages some people try to compare:
Alejandro Carlos said: “I not only already speak Mandarin but also Cantonese (that is traditional Chinese for you, my great grandfather in my mother side was Cantonese)”
The real truth later was (and I don’t trust this): “But I am glad you are studying Chinese. I studied it because my grandfather was Chinese, but my studying Mandarin did not make much sense since he did not speak Mandarin but Cantonese, which is called traditional Chinese nowadays, and he was long gone when I was born. My proficiency has degraded considerably for lack of practice.”
—
Alejandro Carlos said: “My grandparents were from Leon, Spain. I travel with three passports, Cuban, American and (surprise), Spanish. I have been all over Europe and speak several other languages besides English and Spanish. French, Italian, German and (another surprise) Esperanto” (notice the verb “speak” in present, not spoke/could speak, and “speak”, not “learned” or “once read one lesson”)
Only about Esperanto the real truth later was (and I don’t trust this, maybe he read one lesson once in the late sixties, early seventies or exactly in 1974):
“And yes, I learned Esperanto in the late sixties when it became fashionable in Cuba, but I can really say that I remember much of it after almost fifty years. I am sorry but after a while I did not see any usefulness to it then, nor now.”
“…Esperanto. I already mentioned that I crossed paths with the language in the early seventies, I also said that finding it of little economic and practical value I discarded it, But I never said I didn’t learn it.”
“I came across Esperanto in the early seventies in Cuba and although I was curious for a little while It never really appeared as it was really going to take off.”
“And I am sorry but you are not responsible for my respect to Esperanto, I got in contact with Esperanto in 1974, when I was still in high school and there was a growing opposition to English from the Cuban government and Esperanto was proposed as an alternative to international communication. To no avail, there were too few speakers to make it useful in the fight against the also growing oppression by the government”
Alex, even if I were lying does not mean you are telling the truth and even if I am wrong does not mean you are right. You are just being devious, which does not goes well with the ideals you claim to have.
And that the comments will be here forever cuts both ways. English/Esperanto progress or lack thereof will render this debate moot 20 years from now.
The chances of English ever becoming the only official language of the EU are close to zero. Such a decision would require the unanimous agreement of 28 heads of state or government. No democratically-elected French President, German chancellor or Spanish, Italian or Polish leader is going to agree to put their own citizens at a permanent disadvantage vis-a-vis the 12% of EU citizens who are native speakers of English. Present EU multilingualism policy, agreed unanimously by the Barcelona European Council in 2002, is that all Europeans are encouraged to study at least three languages – their own and two others. Any change to that policy would require the unanimous consent of all 28 heads of state or government.
“Should English be the only official language of the EU?”
nl: NEEN
eo: NE
fr: NON
de: NEIN
en: NO
ru: НЕТ
eo: Kiu fakte starigis ĉi tie tiun demandon, ĉu la angla devus esti la sola oficiala EUa lingvo?
nl: Wie heeft hier eigenlijk de vraag gesteld of het Engels de enige officiële EU-taal zou moeten zijn?
fr: En fait, qui est-ce qui a posé ici la question, si l’anglais devrait être la seule langue officielle de l”UE?
de: Wer hat hier eigentlich die Frage gestellt, ob Englisch die einzige amtliche Sprache des EU sein sollte?
en: Who actually asked the question, whether English should be the only official language of the EU?
ru: кто на самом деле спросил вопрос о том, следует английского быть в ЕС единственным официальным языком?
About 1940, Europe had to speak German. Later, Eastern Europe had to speak Russian. Now, Europe has to speak English. Next is Hindi or Mandarin?
One language means unification, lost of culture, Gleichschaltung.
Better use a cultural neutral language between different peoples
In the first language levels, English is very easy, but German and Russian are difficult.
In middle levels, English has no more advantage.
In the highest language levels, Russian is easier than English and German, although it uses another alphabet
Are you trying to say Russian should be “the only official language of the EU”? :)
No. We know that diversity everywhere is an advantage. Why should it not be the same with languages? Remember that English is THE killer language of the world. It will kill not only your language, but also your culture. We should support our mother/father tongue and use a common, easy to learn language for communication between people, who speak different native languages.
Remember also, that only 54% of the EŬ population claims to know more than the native language.
Who did put here the question, whether English should be the only official language of the EU?
Wie heeft hier de vraag gesteld of Engels de enige officiële taal van de EU zou moeten zijn?
Kiu starigis ĉi tie la demandon, ĉu la angla devus esti la sola oficiala EUa lingvo?
Duolinguo.com now offers a course in Esperanto for English speakers. On the first day some 9 thousand students signed up – just saying…..
Here is a historical example of imperialism (of France in that case):
In August 1921, Nitobe Inazō (新渡戸 稲造) (1862-1933) took part in the 13th World Congress of Esperanto in Prague, as the official delegate of the League of Nations. His report to the General Assembly of the League was the first objective report on Esperanto by a high-ranking official representative of an intergovernmental organization. Although the proposal for the League to accept Esperanto as their working language was accepted by ten delegates, the French delegate used his veto power to block the issue.
(In the twenties French was the dominant language. France tried to hold this position using a veto)
Jen historia ekzemplo pri imperialismo (de Francujo tiufoje):
En aŭgusto 1921, Nitobe Inazō (新渡戸 稲造) (1862-1933) partoprenis la 13an universalan kongreson en Prago kiel la oficiala delegito de Ligo de Nacioj. Lia raporto al la Ĝenerala Asembleo de la Ligo estis la unua objektiva raporto pri Esperanto fare de altranga oficiala reprezentanto de interregistara organizaĵo. Kvankam la propono al la Ligo akcepti Esperanton kiel sian laborlingvon estis aprobita de dek delegitoj, la franca delegito uzis sian vetoan povon por bloki la temon.
(En la dudekaj jaroj la franca estis la dominanta lingvo. Francujo provis teni tiun pozicion per vetoo)
I see this debate again and again I still can’t figure out what’s the worst part of it! Ok, many Europeans speak English as a second language and may seem convenient. Thus the thought for many is here already so let’s make a debate. So far so good.
But even if I accept the purest of the intentions for this discussion, how can I describe a debate about the enforcement of a language upon all the (independent) European states and citizens that is not accessible by those who are to be affected the most, since even if they have internet access, they cannot even understand the question. Not because they don’t care, not because they aren’t clever enough understand the meaning but just because they don’t speak the language!!! And THEY are the majority by far!!!
Do you think if you put the question “Should Spanish be the only official language of the EU?” in Spain, French in France and French speaking areas, German in German speaking countries etc the majority would say yes or no?
Please people! If you are dreaming the world where the mighty takes it all the jungle is already out there! We don’t need any kind of union for that.
Amen! The smartest comment on this thread so far. I never see this kind of arrogance on any Spanish-speaking threads. Despite French being spoken in several of the EU nations. I don’t hear them saying, why don’t we just make French the main language. It’s only English. Please people, wake up, there’s nothing wrong with speaking your own language.
Eleftheria, I said something similar a long time ago. Only different. Post the same question “Should English be the only official language of the EU?”, which is what is being pondered, in all the languages of the EU, and let people debate the question in their own language, with people that speak the same language. Then gather and tabulate the results and reach a conclusion, whatever it turn out to be. They have a right to express their opinion, in their language. I agree that something this important must be discussed with all those who are going to be affected by the results.
That said, I think that most people in this particular forum have misconstrued the meaning of the question. I don’t read in the question, nor I believe it was the intension of it, that choosing English as the only official language of the EU is intended as using it as a substitute for the respective languages of all the countries participating in the EU. It does not need to, nor it is going to, be used as a substitute for those other languages. EVERYBODY WILL CONTINUE USING THEIR OWN LANGUAGE FOR EVERYTHING.
The question has to do with logistics, one official language in the EU only means that when they (the representatives of all the members countries) get together to work, only one language will be needed. And for the contention that some delegates will be at a disadvantage because their mastery of the language cannot be compared to the likes of Mr. Cameron, well if they want to be in politics in modern Europe they need to be not only fluent but very proficient in English, whether it becomes the only official language or not.
And for those claiming that such a step will obliterate the language and culture of all the member countries, I just say, please give me a break! Latin could not do it, and it was imposed by force for centuries. French could not do it and was also tried by force and other means. German could not do it and also was tried by extreme force. Why would English be able to accomplish what all the others could not, even when those others tried it by force, and in cases for a much longer period of time.
I will tell you why. Because people will make it so if they decide that it is going to be to their advantage. If they reach the conclusion it is not then it will not happen, the same way the it did not happen with all the others that tried.
And don’t let yourself be fooled. In the long run the only way that Humanity will make it is by becoming just one race, the Human Race. By having just one culture, the Human Culture. By having one language, the Human Language (whichever that turn out to be) and by living in just one world, Planet Earth (just like we are doing right now, but without trying to consciously and voluntarily destroy it). If we get that far before destroying ourselves. I may not happen in the next twenty, fifty, one hundred or one thousand years but it will happen. We started as one group of people spreading throughout the World and we will end as one group coming together in the World. Or we will perish as a race.
For all the beauty of diversity, IT IS DIVISIVE! People don’t trust (with good reason in most cases) those they cannot understand and that profess different beliefs, customs and cultures. We only need to look back at History. We only need to turn on the TV any day of the week.
Although having a common language, to start, will not change much the present World situation it will be a step in the right direction. It does not have to be, nor be construed as, cultural imperialism. Most people speaking English today (those like me that are not native speakers) studied and learned English voluntarily (and like those who are doing it now still do). For those who want to claim that they have done it because they have been forced by the economic situation or something similar, I only have to say “That is called self improvement, development and progress.
People go to the University to get a better job, earn more money and live a better life. All of us have been forced for one reason or another to learn and acquire new skills and knowledge, language is just one of them. Be it English or any other.
In my opinion, which I expressed before elsewhere herein, if presently English have a certain advantage compared to other languages is just one of convenience. It is already being used more that any other language in most of the World and there is a large infrastructure already in place that will help to accomplish the transition. Is it going to happen that way? Only time, and the people decision, will tell.
Unfortunately I am an English teacher and trying to read Alejandro Carlos’ rantings drives me crazy. He makes so many mistakes in English. He really, really needs to take more courses in English composition and especially in persuassive writing. He would not be able to pass the competency exams at an American university with his poor grasp of English writing. He would need a lot of coaching. I therefore do not at all understand why he is so adamant about foisting English on others when he hasn’t been able to master it himself. If he were to write crystaline discourse, I would understand. But apparently he has spent many hours to little avail. Indeed, he could reserve a hotel room or order a meal with his English, but I would truly advise him not to attempt to use it in a parliamentary debate.
As I pointed out earlier, the same holds for me in Spanish which I have studied since 1990. If I were to aspire to plead my case in front of a Spanish-speaking court, I would definitely ask for a translator.
I may also point out that Switzerland has not imposed one language on its citizens and they continue their political and national discussions in four different tongues.
Robb you may be an English teacher but probably little of anything else. As I have told you before I am not interested in your professional advise and my comments here are not part of one of your English homework assignments so spare me the critique. Furthermore, this is not a parliamentary debate but if it was you will be of very little help if you cannot find anything else to criticize in my ranting but my English. I am sure that everybody else in here is as interested as I am in you dropping your professorial stance. Besides if you are so worried about the lack of English writing abilities of other people how come it is only me you criticize, even when there are people here that clearly are much worse than I am. May it be that you are so frustrated for your lack of arguments against my ranting that you have no other alternative than to try to belittle me in some other way. Well, that is petty to say the least. Did I use petty correctly, teacher? You are more transparent than Reynolds Wrap. Besides, if you are such a good teacher how come that your criticisms are so offensive and destructive, a good teacher does not behave like that or risk losing the student confidence in the abilities of said teacher to help him improve. My English is bad, very bad according to you but according to your behavior here your are far worse as an educator than I am as an English writer.
So please, if you have something to say to refute what I said then do so otherwise keep your counsel to yourself.
en: At the question “Should English be the only official language of the EU?” I reply: This would be a cultural genocide of the EU on all his no-English population.
nl: Op de vraag of Engels de enige officiële taal van de EU zou moeten zijn” antwoord ik, dat dit vanwege de EU een culturele volkenmoord zou zijn op al zijn niet-Engelstalige volken.
eo: Al la demando “ĉu la angla devus esti la sola oficiala lingvo de EU” mi respondas, ke tio estus kultura genocido fare de EU al ĉiuj siaj ne-anglalingvaj popoloj
H Fei :
“No one speaks Esperanto in China.
;-)))
http://esperanto.cri.cn/
http://esperanto.china.org.cn/
(…)
Excellent comments, Henri and Leo – bonegaj komentoj vi ambau faris.
This kind of sweeping statement, “Everybody speaks English”, or “Nobody speaks Esperanto”, “all men are fools” is invariably false. In my experience, some of the best Esperanto speakers are Chinese, and there is a very rich Chinese literature already translated into Esperanto. Translated by the Chinese themselves, unlike English translations, which are normally done by native English speakers.
A little tale: “We have a magnificent thoroughbred racehorse (Esperanto), ideal for international communication. However, some extremely rich and powerful people produce donkeys (English). So rich and powerful are they that they have brainwashed the whole world into believing that their donkey is the fastest animal on four legs, and that the racehorse does not exist, and even if he does exist, he is unable to run. The donkey-owners make huge profits by selling donkeys, and have convinced large numbers in every country that “everybody should own a donkey”. This situation brings astronomically high profits to themselves, so they have a vested interest in hiding the truth. Any normal person who examines the situation objectively can see that the racehorse does exist, is four times faster than the donkey, and is actually far cheaper than the expensive donkey. But the propaganda of the donkey-owners since 1945 has been so powerful and all-pervasive that people do not wish to hear the word “racehorse” – they are all saving up to own their own donkey! Many have already invested in donkeys, and they fear that the racehorse may one day be given serious consideration….. There is a beautiful saying in Esperanto which is difficult to translate: “Se la homaro subite malstultighus!” – “if the human race were suddenly to become less stupid/were to lose its stupidity”.
Thanks to Seán
I here translate the tale into Dutch and Esperanto:
Een verhaaltje: “We hebben een prachtig volbloed renpaard (Esperanto), ideaal voor internationale communicatie. Echter, een aantal zeer rijke en machtige mensen produceren ezels (Engels). Zo rijk en machtig zijn ze dat ze de hele wereld hebben gehersenspoeld en doen geloven dat hun ezel de snelste viervoeter is, en dat het renpaard niet bestaat, en zelfs als het bestond, het niet in staat is om te draven. De ezelbezitters maken enorme winsten door de verkoop van ezels, en hebben veel mensen in elk land overtuigd dat “iedereen moet een ezel bezitten”. Deze situatie brengt hun astronomisch hoge winsten op, dus hebben ze er alle belang bij de waarheid te verbergen. Elke normale persoon die de situatie objectief onderzoekt kan zien dat het renpaard bestaat, vier keer sneller is dan de ezel, en eigenlijk veel goedkoper is dan de dure ezel. Ze sparen allemaal om hun eigen ezel bezitten – maar de propaganda van de ezeleigenaars is sinds 1945 zo krachtig en doordringend, dat mensen het woord “renpaard” niet willen horen! Velen hebben al geïnvesteerd in ezels, en ze vrezen dat het renpaard op een dag serieus in overweging zou worden genomen… Er is een mooi gezegde in Esperanto, dat moeilijk te vertalen is: “Se la homaro subite malstultiĝus!” – “Als het mensdom plots minder dom zou worden/ van zijn domheid zou afgeraken”.
Rakonteto: “Ni havas fieran purrasan kurĉevalon (Esperanto), idealan por internacia komunikado. Tamen, iuj ekstreme riĉaj kaj potencaj homoj produktas azenojn (Angla). Ili estas tiel riĉaj kaj potencaj, ke ili cerbolavis la tutan mondon kaj kredigis, ke iliaj azenoj estas la plej rapidaj kvarpieduloj, kaj ke la kurĉevalo ne ekzistas, kaj eĉ se ĝi ekzistus, ĝi ne kapablas kuri. La azenposedantoj faras grandegajn profitojn vendante azenojn, kaj ili kredigis al multaj homoj en ĉiuj landoj, ke “ĉiu devus posedi azenon”. Tiu situacio alportas astronomie altajn profitojn al ili, tial por ili gravas kaŝi la veron. Ajna normala persono, kiu objektive ekzamenas la situacion, povas vidi, ke la kurĉevalo ekzistas, estas kvaroble pli rapida ol la azeno, kaj fakte kostas multe malpli ol la multekosta azeno. Sed la propagando de la azenposedantoj iĝis ekde 1945 tiel potenca kaj ĉien penetranta, ke homoj ne volas aŭdi la vorton “kurĉevalo” – ili ĉiuj ŝparas por posedi sian propran azenon! Multaj jam investis en azenojn, kaj ili timas, ke la kurĉevalo iam estos serioze konsiderata … En Esperanto ekzistas bela proverbo, kiu malfacile tradukeblas: “Se la homaro subite malstultiĝus!” – “Se la homaro subite iĝus malpli stulta / perdus sian stultecon”.
auf deutsch: Eine kleine Geschichte: Wir haben ein prächtiges Vollblutrennpferd (Esperanto), hervorragend für die internationale Verständigung. Aber eine Gruppe von sehr reichen Menschen züchten Esel (Englisch). Sie sind so reich und mächtig, dass sie die ganze Welt davon überzeugt haben, dass ihre Esel überhaupt die schnellsten Vierbeiner sind. Die Eselbesitzer strechen einen riesigen Gewinn vom Verkauf der Esel ein und haben viele andere davon überzeugt dass auch sie eins besitzen müssen. Diese Sache bringt ihnen einen astronomischen Profit ein so dass sie sehr vorsichtich die Wahrheit verstecken. Jeder normale Mensch, der die Sache objektiv betrachtet, kann sehen, dass es das Vollblutrennpferd gibt und das das Rennpferd viermal so schnell ist wie ein Esel und tatsächlich wesentlich billiger ist als ein Esel. Doch die Propaganda der Eselbesitzer ist seit 1945 immer stätrker geworden und dringt überall ein, so dass Menschen kein Rennpferd wollen – sie sparen alle um ihr eigenes Esel zu haben. Viele haben schon ihre Investitionen in Esel gesteckt und füchten, dass das Rennpferd tatsächlich Interessenten findet. Auf Esperanto gibt es ja ein schönes Sprichwort, das man nur schwer übersetzt: «Wenn die Menschheit nur von der Dummheit aufwecken würde». :-)
You make no sense. It was the French who vetoed Esperanto at the league of nations. Also Esperanto is barely even spoken globally. Look at the figures of people who speak it compared to the figures of people who speak Mandarin, English, Spanish etc. These languages are considered “Global Languages”. Esperanto is not, and is arguably more of an intellectual exercise than an actual conductive language. Seriously, if you seriously expect Esperanto to become a serious global language it would take a long long time, long after we’re dead and we will never see it. Given current trends, however, make me extremely doubtful though. The most likely ‘global’ language will be either Mandarin, Spanish and/or English. And it will occur naturally anyways, nor would it prevent others from speaking other languages.
There is a saying in English: “One days after the other.” So let’s see how many people start learning English today and how many start learning Esperanto. And the next day, and the next and the next. Esperanto may be a ‘racehorse” and English a “donkey”, but it is well know that racehorses do not win without a specially trained jockey, and in many cases not even with the best jockey. In the other hand, donkeys are legendary for being a lot more sure footed that horses with a greater capacity for bearing heavier loads for a longer period, and the rider does not need to be specially trained. And I do not get the Esperanto saying: “if the human race were suddenly to become less stupid/were to lose its stupidity”, then what? Esperanto is such a good language that its sayings do not need to be completed. Sean, we more substance.
Mi ege dankas al Leo pro la 2 tradukoj. Amike. Seán
NO!!! The official language must be European but not from any country… I prefer LATIN.
As a work language English would do but the teaching of languages should be incentivated.
English, Spanish, Portuguese, French and even German for example.
Why not? I think that French and Germans probably have another opinion, but if you use a language that is spoken only in 2% of Europe you have no choice. Most of us know more than one foreign language, but not at the same level.
I wish learning another language was mandatory here in Australia…
Most kids are forced to learn (at least at a very basic level) another language. When I was a kid I was forced to learn basic Japanese (back when Japan was this rising power). Now the kids all learn basic Chinese.
No.
Why must we have just one official language? Why not allocate an “official” language for each institution? Eg Europarl – French, Council of the EU – German, Commission – English, ECB – Italian .etc etc etc.
Its must but preperably english cos english is an international language!!!
No, latin should be the language of europe.
.
The language of Europe will be English, not for any Jingoism reason but purely because that’s how integration works, the superior takes over the inferior, as evident by the posts on this page.
no
English german and french
Absolutely! We have to find a common language to communicate !English is the best way!
Let`s all learn greek language! They gave us term “Europe”, so, let it be – in memory of Greece who was member of European Union years ago. :D
In the real world, whatever you think, and also if you prefer to be semi-literate, if you do not know at least one foreign language (and English is the most useful, but French and Spanish help a lot in may parts of the world) you are a loser in the labour market. So, compulsory or not, as humans have free will, learn a language. Did you notice that everybody here is writing in English?
No. But it should be treated as an aux language.
yes
Yes
No. Is the EU not supposed to be about diversity?
YES to teaching English in schools across Europe. NO NO to English as the only official language of the EU.
That being said, what about we all get a decent B1 level in a dozens of other European languages? I’d have loved to get modern Greek in school too, or Portuguese, or Finnish… but shamefully it wasn’t an option. #disappointedeuropean
english , german, and spanish and russian / one for each year !! diversity !!
English Only pls
It is quite obvious that this post was posted in English, so people naturally respond in English, but we know (as we can measure it) that if the debate was posted in any other language than English, there would be a significantly lower amount of people commenting. The fact of the matter is that English is the best language (best: as most useful) because it is so widely spoken by everyone in the entire world. I speak 7 European languages, so it is not because I am advocating for 1 language as I love Europe for its diversity, but for simplicity, efficiency, and productivity reasons I would definately argue for English. But, in truth, I already see a vastly growing trend in people speaking English in other parts in Europe where this tradition is not as rooted as e.g. in the Benelux or Scandinavian countries, so you wouldn’t need to institutionalize it as such, although it can accelerate the process, and this would be the added-value of moving ahead with such a motion as proposed above.
English only. German to be banned.
ESPERANTO!
Non merci ;) Par contre l UE devrait être fidèle à sa devise et promouvoir l enseignement de plusieurs langues. J en parle moi-même 4 plus ou moins bien, preuve que ce n est pas impossible. But as always, it’s a political choice (in this case disguised as an efficiency choice)
English is probably the official ‘business’ language around the world. So many countries use it for international communication. I don’t know if should be the official language of the EU, but it is likely to be the most common language used around Europe.
Default English?
yes
No the German will be best…as well as the “oath to the 4th Reich”!!!!!!
Yes, and all English school children should start to learn languages at 5 years old.
NO – I don’t think you can make it compulsory – because it would mean losing another subject that is at the moment being taught – but basic English IS useful. Btw new migrants into the UK without any English MUST pass an exam in written, spoken and UK history
all Europeans should learn English at school, but it shouldn’t be the only official language.
Yes.
No
Mandatory for all students? NO!
English as the only language? NO!
Definitly not
English, German, French and Spanish.
Mandatory for all students? NO! Each school should set their standards. The accreditation process will take care of the rest.
English as the only language? NO! What about French? Spanish? Or German? Also widely spoken languages in the EU and in the world.
I’m German and still I think Europe needs a lingua franca which should be widespread already. Thus English is a logical choice for such a language. And it follows that every eu citizen should be able to talk, read and write in English. In addition every law, public proclamation etc should be published in English as well.
Every EU member’s language has to be official EU language.
Yes it most definitely should.
At least English plus another language
Why not latin?
Yes sure
Definitely Yes! National Language + English + Another EU language.
No € in GB – no mandatory!!!
Yes! Its the International & Business Language of the World! Secondly, if allows for a truly harmonized common market with easy flow of Human Capital around states according to the demand!
Doctors and scientists already adapted Greek, and most medical and scientific terms are in Greek. Greek is the basis of most of the European languages, english german etc already incorporated thousands of Greek words. All European languages are basically written in the Greek alphabet (even latin), the basis of Europe’s culture was developed by people speaking Greek and thus Greek is one of the richest languages, capable of adapting indefinitely. You want to adapt a single language for the whole of the EU and you choose English because… the british empire conquered and traded in english 100 years ago??
The official international language, yes, but every language used in everyday communication should also have official recognition.
YES!
We should speak Latin
The Latin of democracy is called Esperanto.
Spanish for example is. Exclude to
Non
No.
Each member state’s predominant language should be made official.
English already enjoys a widespread adoption as a lingua franca among states, so there is no need to further enhance this position…
It’s questions like these that make people dislike the EU
Yes, sure! Communication is fundamental in the Union + English is the simplest way to do it :)
English is not the simplest way to do it. Esperanto is.
.
English will be the official language of the EU because that is what ‘ever closer union’ means.
It is a fact that English is spoken by the majority of the educated people in Europe and it is a must if you want to be up to speed with latest IT, mobile phone and other developments. So, if it is to be one language, that is EN.
Nope; we’re united in diversity.
haha I had a laugh at this. As a non-EU citizen it seems from my perspective that Europe is the polar opposite. Divided in diversity, with mass social / political volatility the norm. Europeans are funny.
Surely not it is up to parents and children. This would be a fashist or NWO decision!
Latin and Greek have been Europe’s linguae francae for centuries. With more than half of the vocabulary of most European languages originating from these two languages, I can’t see why they shouldn’t still be.
We need one official language that everyone speaks and then, United in diversity, all the regional languages for their regions. The EU language does not need to be English. It could be Latin as our common history would suggest.
never!!!
never – Britain wants to leave the Union – and the Union …..Lol
Yes. We need a common vehicular language once and for all if we want to build a closer Union and for several reasons English is the best placed one. But it is just my feeling… Independently of this fact I speak Spanish, English, French and I am currently strudying Norwegian and Italian :)
English(american) in EU, like Russian was in USSR… The new dictatorship!!!
German
NEVER, especially when the Brits want to leave the EU, let them leave
Noo, make it be italian
NO! Britain will be out of the EU by 2017, anyway…
Why the only one? It should be mandatory to learn at least 3
Prepare for the future: learn CHINESE !!!!
Some messages I read on fb tell me that written English should be taught to all English speakers.
A good point! Even English native speakers make lots of spelling mistakes, as the spelling of English is so illogical. Esperanto and Spanish spelling is logical, unlike English, and Esperanto is 10 times easier than English. It could save an astronomical amount of money.
yes.
It’s time to create a world language, basic and easy to learn taught in schools throughout the planet… This has the advantage of not promoting any specific culture or empire or political view …
When you are interested in any other language for any reason, you could learn that language that carries a culture with its values…
This system could be implemented in less than 2 generations by a general agreement signed by a growing number of participating countries…
non, EU is a Union of countries……..
Common language for all!!!! Cheaper and easier…….ENGLISH is already the point…..
the US of E should have one official language and Eng suits best that role.
Yes, English should be first official language in the EU, because its lexical composition is collected all over the world and its grammar is easy. Despite of that millions young people are studying or still have learned English language.
The question does not mention “first” official language, but “only” official language.
You said: “… its lexical composition is collected all over the world”
That means that a native speaker knows a lot of words to say something and always will dominate a stranger, who learned only a selection of this collection. Poor stranger!
You said: “… and its grammar is easy”
:-))
Esperanto has 16 rules in its whole grammar.
English has only 1 rule … for each word…
No. Esperanto must be the universal language.
Many people in here say that “NO”.. Alright, then why do you write your comments in English? ;) Everybody write own native language…
This is impossible. Because then, nobody can’t not understand each other… So, English is common language. And so, it can be official language in the EU. Don’t be nationalist.
Actually we need a new EU-special-English language protected by law and resolves the linguistic difficulties any new learner experiencing. Simple, easy, shortest spelling, clear and not causing confusions and reunites the other tongues actively participated in building the Anglo-Saxony language that recognized today as English. For example to spell ” you” as ” U” for singular and ”Uu” for plurals. It is much practical to remove the dots, dash’s and any the other upper link and down link signs from the words of foreign origins used in English. Today the world relies on quick communication skills and have not that much time to write something using a special irregular rule for each-word. The psychologists can calculate the saved brain energy and time from developing the 2 forums. U.S. American English is much easier to learn than the Native British one and the others. But you in the EU you should make it much easier to the users and the learners willing to keep communicating to the English speakers without troubles or identity conflicts. Future is in your hands.
As mentioned already – we do all speak English as a global language. So why ask teh question. There would be no pount Europe to select anothe common language to only speak English with all other Region’s of the world that just get on with it….. Personally, I am in favour of anything that would help us all communicate better, togther. And, I want to ensure that mother languages are not lost – I am not sure that will happen, but I do think the essence of other languages may be peppered with English in the future…
No! It helps because most of us know it only that!!!
yes
It would be the best what European education can do- to create English as a second language for all member states!
it helps because can communicate with different people of the European union
Y E S! The Global Citizens of the EU need a common language that is spoken throughout the world….
No
noooooooooooo. it should be greek …. the basis of all languages!
No, no and no. We have two good choices:
– latin, the root of most European languages, the language of Science, politics, diplomacy, religion, university, etc.
– Esperanto, a very easy to learn and use language
Luis is right. Esperanto is the most democratic choice. Latin would work well for an elite, as it did in the Ages. English would work for a different elite.
Yes,
I don’t think it needs to be emphasised. Let people use whatever language they prefer to bridge communicational obstacles. The one that makes to the top becomes official. Keep it simple.
English is a language spoken in entire EU
Of course yes!!
No. Why english?
why english when UK is prepearing to leave the EU? oh, right, nobody learns english for UK’s sake anymore
No solange in der EU jeder für sich sein Süppchen kocht und von Einheit keine Rede ist gibt es auch keine einheitliche Sprache
Alihuitl Crosland
No because the uk is not really a part of europe when difficulties arise.
Yes, yes, yes!!!
we should vote for it. the biggest speaker group is german.
NO!
The issue is not egoistic (which is best and why) but rather a matter of human communication, a common language so everybody can communicate with others. English language till now has played that role. All of sudden we want to change it. Why?
yes we need an easy language to communicate with !!!!!
No
Definitely yes…
Yessss !
Не
Yes!
No! Europe is multicultural, multilingual and we must respect diversity of all languages. Go to school and learn foreign languages.
no, we should preserve diversity of all languages in Europe, no continent has such outstanding diversity, but make learning English accessible to everyone, English language is the best tool to communicate still, we also need to acknowledge that
The number of individual languages listed for China is 297. All are living languages. Of these, 15 are institutional, 23 are developing, 100 are vigorous, 127 are in trouble, and 32 are dying. (http://www.ethnologue.com/country/CN)
In the Americas there are over a thousand languages, in Asia more than 2,300, In the Pacific, over 1,300, in Africa, over 2,100 and in Europe only 286 and that is including all of Russia. (http://www.ethnologue.com/world). Just China alone has more languages than the whole European continent, let alone the EU. So Europe is not the one continent with the most outstanding diversity, it happens to be the one with the least diversity. But it is the continent with the most wars in history and if it is not, it surely is the one with the most destructive one. So much for European diversity. Spain, France, the UK and Germany have been fighting each other for centuries. Do they trust each other? Only as far as they have no choice.
English is not the best tool to communicate. You can only write that if you do not know Esperanto.
To Corina Negrea:
You said: “no, we should preserve diversity of all languages in Europe, no continent has such outstanding diversity”
You are right for this
You said: “but make learning English accessible to everyone”
I say: “but make learning Esperanto accessible to everyone”
You said: “English language is the best tool to communicate still, …”
Not of all!
Very few people speak Esperanto. Very many people don’t have any idea of what Esperanto is or even that it exits at all. That is why she writes that English is the best tool to communicate. There are millions of people in every continent who speak English and that she can communicae with. In every country, people to communicate with, and talk with and argue with, about politics and economy and social issues and even about how there is a minuscule group of people that speak a funny language who think the language they learned, which is not their native language, is a better choice for communication despite that very few people speak it, and that there is no economic, financial, social or political benefit of learning it.
BUT, very many people know about English, and that if they learn English they will have more opportunities and a better chance of making more money and have a better life.
That is true in the US and the UK, that is also true in Europe and in Africa, and in Asia, and in Polinesia, and in Central and South America. And if the peguins could talk and read the newpaper that would also be true in Antartica.
Numbers only matter. That way 60 years ago your speech , Alejandro, would have been as it is now, but using the word “French”. Don’t you see it? I’ll laugh out loud in 2050 if I remember you.
No more English threatening diversity as the single official language of a diverse Europe! There’s no ethics in there! No Europe values at all. We’d better add a new official language, Esperanto and use it as a bridge language. Even if there only some million people that speak it (sorry for not invading countries, killing people and imposing Esperanto) you are blind if you can’t see it’s the best tool to communicate with (try it on Duolingo if you can’t trust what i’m experiencing). I don’t know any other world congress, with more than 2500 people from more than 80 countries, where there’s no need of interpreter and people speak freely and on an equal foot as the Esperanto world congress (this time in Lille http://www.lve-esperanto.org/lille2015/eo/index.htm ). Hey, if you do know, show me any other congress where this kind of miracle happens.
The liltte prince:
“Grown-ups like numbers. When you tell them about a new friend, they never ask questions about what really matters. They never ask: “What does his voice sound like?” “What games does he like best?” “Does he collect butterflies?”. They ask: “How old is he?” “How many brothers does he have?” “How much does he weigh?” “How much money does his father make?” Only then do they think they know him.
If you tell grown-ups, “I saw a beautiful red brick house, with geraniums at the windows and doves on the roof…,” they won’t be able to imagine such a house. You have to tell them, “I saw a house worth a hundred thousand francs.” Then they exclaim, “What a pretty house!”
Oh people of Europe, open your mind, your eyes! English is now important, yes, but not fair nor efficient as an interethnic tool, and no way spoken by 70% of the world population
“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”
People all over the World do not need to be told that English is better or easier and cheaper to learn. They do not really care. They only care about the possibilities the language offers them. Possibilities of improving their economic status, of being able of getting off the poverty treadmill, of giving their progeny a better education and future. And yes numbers matter. How do you explain to someone not making enough to make ends meet that they should not care about how much money they can make when they learn English but instead that they should learn Esperanto, which is not going to offer anything in return right now but that in ten generations will make the World a better place. How many days will that person go hungry before he or she stops caring.
Numbers have always mattered. That is how democracy is supposed to work, by the wish, and for the benefit, of the majority. And unfortunately for the Esperanto advocates, presently English carries the majority. Maybe in the next election Esperanto will have a majority vote, although that is unlikely giving the strength of all the other runner ups. Chinese, Spanish, Russian, German, French, etc. Even Hindi and Polynesian have a better chance given the number of speakers.
Numbers matter and Democracy is a bitch when it does not work your way. Well, you cannot be pro democracy only when it benefits you. So be democratic and go with the majority. We are counting on you to vote yes.
So as i said “Numbers only matter.” and as i said too “English is now important” that’s why i currently recommend learning both and i say people better learn Esperanto first http://www.fluentin3months.com/2-weeks-of-esperanto
You are right in many points, you show facts i do know too, but you don’t want to agree with other facts that clearly shows why voting NO is the logical one. It’s a pity.
See, iand millions of speakers plus supporters are like those who proposed the metric system no one used first (0 users), you are like those who wanted other to still use the measure system of the greatest empire. You still think, because history shows peoples never consciently agree for a bridge language, the next one will come more probably from the next empire (“Even Hindi and Polynesian have a better chance given the number of speakers” > of measurement system users).
But see? Against History trends, the metric system is finally everywhere (well, in the USA, China people still use their own, yet the metric one as the bridge one). So… If we all keep on using ilogically the biggest language as the bridge one, then you are right, Esperanto has way less chances, but if we once and for all agree using ethics and brains… You are totally wrong. So you are blind, therefore wrong because you don’t want to see or agree there’s another way humanity could finally take.
Who benefits most of English as the bridge language? Australia, UK, USA… So only 5% of the world.
Who benefits somehow and unefficiently right now? Max 25% of the world population who knows one or two words or has a very high level.
Real democracy is the one where citizens are objectively well informed of all options. There’s no real freedom if a seller only shows you two items (and you can’t see the others that could suit you better)
I finish with your final, only the last word has been changed: “Democracy is a bitch when it does not work your way. Well, you cannot be pro democracy only when it benefits you. So be democratic and go with the majority. We are counting on you to vote”… NO :-P
You are comparing apples and oranges. The metric system adoption was not like what we are presently discussing. The metric systems was adopted by consensus because of its obvious benefits to the parties involved. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system). Although, it was not without opposition nor was it universally accepted, even to this day.
Personally, I am not advocating that English be forced upon people who do not want to use it, nor stating that it should be established as the sole language of all the countries of the EU. That does not make sense, at least in this moment in time, and would result in more distrust and alienation between those who try to enforce such a measure and those who don´t agree with it.
There are over 20 countries in the EU and there are 24 official languages. That means that every piece of legislation have to be translated into all official languages. Major endeavor. It means there are delegates that (even if they speak English) require translators and interpreters to perform their duties. Infrastructure has to be created to accommodate all languages, etc. Presently, English is already present in most of the EU activities. It is being used by most delegates as the mean to communicate with one another and a great deal of the necessary infrastructure is already in place for English. There is nothing for Esperanto and only a handful of delegates speak the language, if any. So numbers matter. Those numbers presently translate in Euros that have to be spent to implement the adopted measures.
Since the beginning of this argument I stated that the sensible thing to do was to take this question to the people of all the member countries in their own native languages, as a referendum, and to let the majority decide what they think it is the best course of action. Once they cast their vote their decision must be accepted, whatever that decision may be. That is the democratic way. Inform the people and let them decide. There are many that will shout the masses are always wrong. I am not one of those, not when the masses are truly and correctly informed.
The two thing I have said, repeatedly are: 1) Presently, English is the language better positioned to be used as the sole “official” language of the EU. First, it is de facto the language being already used in that capacity, second, it is the nonnative language spoken by the greatest number of people in the EU, third, from the financial, economic, scientific, technical and social point of view is the language most used within and without the EU. Which is why it is already widely used in the high spheres of the EU. Culturally, everybody will continue to use their own language for many generations to come, whether the Union likes it or not. Despite the fact that those cultural differences are what have given Europe its bloody and violent history. Regarding the people in general and their relation with English, it is mostly a personal one. Many people hate the language, wrongly, because they take it to represent whatever their opinion of the US and the UK is. Even those who have benefited from learning and using English but bear ill sentiments for those countries. Sentiments based on their experiences and ideals. I cannot and do not disagree with their right to think as they do. And I agree with all of them that they also have a right to use a different language if they so decide. Even if it is Esperanto, it is still their right to choose.
But to state, as some people have been doing in here, that Esperanto is a better choice for the majority, just because it is supposed to be easier and cheaper to teach to future generations and because it does not represent any particular country and will not interfere with their language and their culture is at best naive and at worse a deliberate deception. Their cultures and their languages will be affected regardless what language is chosen, maybe not in the short term but in the long haul the adoption of just one official language for the EU will affect all countries more profoundly, and in my opinion for the better, than it is being let known. Once one language is adopted the first requirement will be that all schools, in all member countries, mandatorily teach that language as a second language, if for no other reason, so the population at large understand the laws and the government activities. That will affect every aspect of life in those countries.
I am going to stipulate that you know more about Esperanto than I do. You should since you are saying it ought to be adopted instead of English. But I know that there are very few people that speak the language worldwide, in comparison. I also know there is no infrastructure for the language in the EU, or in any other part of the world for that matter. It is also true that in comparison the amount of information in every field of knowledge available in Esperanto is negligible compare to English. Once you learn English you have access to almost the totality of human knowledge. If you learn Esperanto you will have access to very little of the knowledge. As many other people who have also done it, I know from experience that learning English provided me with the opportunities I lacked before and just because of it I was able to better my life and that of those who depended on me. I don´t know of anybody who have been able to benefit from their learning of Esperanto. Yes, I know you will be able to provide several hundreds of examples, but compared with the millions who have benefited from learning English that is also negligible. So, if they are going to adopt a language different than their native one it is my opinion they will be better off with English than with Esperanto. If they want and decide to adopt Esperanto as a majority through universal vote, so be it. Let´s sit and wait for their decision, I will accept whatever it is, will you?
And Robb Kvasnak, I told you before and I tell you again. I do not need your help and most definitely I do not need you on my side. Do you remember when you told me that I should have used three million instead of three millions? Well the word is antidote not antedote. You see everybody make mistakes, even those who claims to know better. Do not worry I will not hold that against you, I know it was a miss spelling even though the “i” and the “e” are far apart in the QWERTY keyboard, unless you are using an Esperanto one. Regarding the metric system, it is true it is easier and better than the American one, I grew up with the first one but have to use the second professionally, so I know. But then again if the Americans do not want to use the metric system it is their right, although I do not agree with them. Regarding how I was treated based on my knowledge of English in an English speaking country, it was fair enough. I was given all the same opportunities that all other people had, including the native speakers. I study at the University, I was not given Financial Aide but it was because I made too much money at the time. I was allowed to work in my field of study. I was allowed to open several businesses and was allowed to travel all I wanted without restrictions. Regarding the political basis of my defending English against people like you, you are so far of the mark that you are not even in the same planet. Apparently you are the one who was mistreated since you hate your own language so much, which by the way makes me wonder how you came to be such an altruistic teacher of English to oppressed and mistreated immigrants when you dislike the language so viscerally. How come you are not teaching them Esperanto? And yes I agree with you that many people struggle with English after they learn it. Look deeper, they were already struggling with their own language or they want to learn three months and then be able to discuss a Thesis. Please, do not spend any time grading this essay, I do not care about you opinion of my English.
Conclusions in this reply:
-Choose English if you want a short-term bridge language which is unfair, unefficient, expensive, only now the best language to get a better job.
-Learn English so you get now a better job, but choose Esperanto too if you want to benefit currently from it and build a long-term plan, if you want it as a bridge language, fair, efficient, cheap, currently not money-making though but which would benefit the world much more than English or any other past or future the-facto language will do.
********************************
Alejandro, Of course the metric system adoption differs from the Esperanto adoption as a bridge language, but the revolutionary idea is very similar. Esperanto, as the metric system, “will be adopted by consensus because of its obvious benefits to the parties involved. Although, it was not without opposition…” (change in your own sentence: it was not > Esperanto won’t be).
Ok, you wrote too much, i’ll list the points i agree with and those I don’t:
-Happy to hear this from you: ********* “Personally, I am not advocating that English be forced upon people who do not want to use it, nor stating that it should be established as the sole language of all the countries of the EU. That does not make sense”
-I agree, and i bet it will never be established, see what happened to French, it’s only a short-term way of thinking. The next one could be German (and it sure will be if the UK says good bye) ********* “at least in this moment in time, and would result in more distrust and alienation between those who try to enforce such a measure and those who don´t agree with it.”
-Yes, English has a good position in the EU. But I have to remind you that before 1995, just 20 years ago, French was the main language in the EU. If you can understand French as i do, here you have the statistics and many arguments why English will never be the only language for the EU. You can try google translate https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politique_linguistique_de_l%27Union_europ%C3%A9enne
********* There are over 20 countries […] the adopted measures.
-I would probably not like that referendum: The debate’s question and that kind of referendum would be against the current linguistic policy which aims equal rights for all its citizens. For how many years would the decision work? Eternity? And what would be the exact question you would ask, by the way?
Nowadays, if I try to inform someone about Esperanto, it is quite hard not to find people that only have prejudices and can’t stand the fact they are totally ignorant about that language and what are its goals really. After hours discussing with you, showing facts, we’ve finally succeded you respect Esperanto as a language, i think. Would all referendum information succeed changing people prejudices? I’m not sure, but i guess that even if masses were “truly and correctly informed” about English and French 20 years ago, the results would be then higher for French than English, and now would happen quite the opposite. ********* “Since the beginning of […] correctly informed.”
-I agree with this ********* Presently, English is the language better positioned to be used as the sole “official” language of […] their right to choose.
But taking only that argument would be short-term planning
-I don’t agree with this one. It is not a supposition, but a fact that Esperanto is easier and cheaper to teach, see Grin’s report again. I can agree it could interfere somehow “with their language and their culture”, but of course not that much as ethnic language as English, French, German, Chinese, Spanish would do. And those are not the only reasons Esperanto is a better choice for the majority, just compare with the metric system again. Esperanto as a bridge language that system. English/French/X “ethnic” measurement system are more expensive, unefficient and unfair as bridge systems. Of course a big difference: we all know not using a measurement system isn’t a big cultural loss, but languages are really worth preserving (and lots of monoglots can’t understand this) ********* “But to state, […] deliberate deception”
-As Esperanto is way more culturally neutral (cultures from all over the world VS from mainly USA and UK) and as it is fast to learn, those bad effects (teaching Esperanto for too many years, etc) would be smaller compared to English. ********* “Their cultures and their languages will be affected regardless what language is chosen […] countries.”
-If only one should be chosen, then yes, Esperanto should be that one. But i (and i bet many others) prefer the UE to use Esperanto as a pivot/bridge/vehicular language as the Grin rapport concludes too. I personally think all would be written in Esperanto and at least all important documents would be translated into all EU languages. People would still (or even: Finally!) have that right to speak and write to the EU in their native languages (with interpreters into Esperanto) and they could still read important documents in their native languages. The less important documents would be in Esperanto (and a Google translate, working better with Esperanto, or people willing to volunteer as translators) ********* “You should… in comparison.”„
-Of course the actual position of Esperanto, compared with English, is way too far. But see, there’s something called potential… As hindoarabic cyphers created way more opportunities and jobs than the roman numbers, Esperanto will be that kind of massive revolution in all fields English currently plays inefficiently. As Esperanto is a high regular language, there’s a project called Wikitrans which already have all the English wikipedia pretranslated into Esperanto http://wikitrans.net . User only need to create logically new terms so the untranslated terms get into the Wikitrans system. There’s also speakers who check and make those translation more natural so they can get into the official Esperanto Wikipedia. So currently you can read the whole English Wikipedia in a medium-low quality Esperanto pre-version. The more people learn Esperanto, the more benefits we all will get (jobs included). Remember again, I suggest people learning English too, it is still important to get a better job, but I do suggest too to learn Esperanto first, so they can use that userfriendly language and benefit from it, and they can learn English faster.
********* “I also know there is no infrastructure for the language in the EU […] whatever it is, will you?”
Yes, I know I wrote too much. I sometimes get carried away. So in conclusion you agree with me in that Esperanto may or may not have the potential of making the World better 100 years from now. I say may or may not because Esperanto hasn’t been proven in any really massive participation way. Nobody knows how it will change when the masses get their hands (actually their mouths and minds) on it. Once it becomes a living language and stops being just an academic and fan participation exercise it will change, according to you and the other fans herein, for the better. But nobody knows. But once everybody speaks it the matter becomes irrelevant. They have to make it work one way or another.
In the mean time you also agree with me that if I want to eat, work and prosper it is better I learn English. So people will continue to learn English in order to obtain what they want, and everybody else already has. That means that every day that passes more and more people will continue to learn English just to be able to improve their lot. Isn’t that the way for eventually everybody speaking English since it is a self reinforcing loop. The more people learn English the more necessary it becomes, the more necessary it becomes the more people will want and need to learn English. What a conundrum!
Regarding my position. Well, I am old enough to know that I will not live to see Esperanto become the Universal language, although, if go the other way I may get lucky. So I will stick to my English vs Esperanto. So far I haven’t been able to make a nickel out of Esperanto and even though it didn’t cost me as much as my English education, I got a much better return from the latter. Notwithstanding Robb’s opinion that my English suck, I have always made a decent living out of my English. And the irony of it is that despite my English being worse than his, according to him, I probably have made more money out of my knowledge of English than him out of his. I am a businessman, he is just a teacher.
But go on with your quest, success always smile to those who persevere, however sometimes it takes a mighty long time to do it. So, God speed! and Live long and Prosper!
No, Esperanto does already have the potential of making the World better. Of course, the world will be better with Esperanto only if people want to use it massively. That language has a huge potential that can be seen every day if you use it.
**** “Once it becomes a living language” ***** Here we go… It is already a living language. Would you say Icelandic isn’t a living language? I does have less speakers than Esperanto (and theres 6000 languages more… still quite alive).
**** “In the mean time you also agree with me that if I want to eat, work and prosper it is better I learn English. ***** Yes, but remember again… English will step by step decrease, as French did, as Latin did, as Greek etc. Education First informed English is decreasing in Asia and doesn’t grow in Africa. This crisis is shifting the language power and Chinese is threatening English in Asia. And see, meanwhile, you can learn Esperanto too, it’s not bad to learn two foreign languages. And Esperanto is a springboard to languages. The reinforcing loop is stopping, but maybe you can’t see those facts .
**** I got a much better return from the latter **** of course, that happens too if you don’t really learn Esperanto nor use it.
**** “I am a businessman, he is just a teacher. **** > I don’t know why you still talk to me about him… If you want me to say something, then it’s ok:
-his English will always be better than yours (he is native, he makes mistakes too but you know not as often as you and me)
-A businessman usually only cares about making money and short-term pragramtics. A teacher cares about people and pupil’s life. Teachers usually everywhere earn not as much money as they would deserve. I don’t like what you said the way you said it. I think i read he often works for free so people have a better life.
Unfortunately, no, Esperanto is not a living language, the number of speakers has little to do with a language being a living language or not. Icelandic have been around a lot longer that Esperanto, it is spoken in a particular region of the World as the sole language of a group of people who pass it from parents to children and where people don’t need another language to subsist. An Icelander do not need any other language to be able to live and work and interact with its neighbors. Esperanto? Not so. If the only language you speak is Esperanto you will probably starve, regardless of what country you are in. So, no Esperanto is not a living language. It is a language that is learned by a very disperse and disparate group of people who in most cases do not interact with each other in a direct and daily fashion, so the language does not evolve not it is transformed by its daily use by many different people. Everybody that speak Esperanto learned it from the same books and speaks it in a very limited way with other people who learned the language the same way and use in the same limited way. That is not the definition of a living language. The same way that a dead language in not the definition of a language spoken by dead people.
“Of course, the world will be better with Esperanto only if people want to use it massively” Well, apparently people do not want to use it massively since it have been around for more than a century and there is still very few people speaking it. As I have said repeatedly, if people saw the advantages of Esperanto more people would be speaking it already. And yes, English still may go the French and Latin way since it have many worthy opponents, Chinese is one of them and the other —Russian— even though most people will disregard it offhand still it has the potential to surprise the World. But you cannot deny English has momentum, it has gained momentum in the last twenty years, and it still is gaining momentum from so many people around the World finding it useful, in spite of its difficult learning, complicated spelling and pronunciation.
In the end, insofar people find English useful and Esperanto not useful, people will continue to choose English over Esperanto, disregarding the shrill cacophony of a group of people saying otherwise.
“I would probably not like that referendum” Of course you would not. The chances of Esperanto will be even worse than they are right now, because there are many people who think the EU should go the English way, whether they are majority is still in doubt. And regarding all your other questions regarding how long the measure will be effective, etc., they are also applicable to Esperanto if it were chosen. And I am sorry but you are not responsible for my respect to Esperanto, I got in contact with Esperanto in 1974, when I was still in high school and there was a growing opposition to English from the Cuban government and Esperanto was proposed as an alternative to international communication. To no avail, there were too few speakers to make it useful in the fight against the also growing oppression by the government. I have always respected Esperanto as a language, regardless of my opinion of its possibilities of being adopted as a universal language, bridge or otherwise. I think it was a very nice and intelligent way of circumventing many nasty things happening at the time of its invention, in addition of being invented by a Jew ho, to this day, I am a great admired of.
“but of course not that much as ethnic language as English, French, German, Chinese, Spanish would do”. I am sorry but those language you mention are not ethnic (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ethnic?showCookiePolicy=true). There are many different ethnic groups that speak those languages. But following your definitions of “ethnic” languages then Esperanto will become one as soon as it is adopted as the “sole official language of the EU” since there will be a group of people more interested in its use than others.
“prefer the UE to use Esperanto as a pivot/bridge/vehicular language” A pivot/bridge/vehicular language to WHAT? As soon as it is adopted as the sole language “that is it”. And regarding languages and cultures, once they become useless and obsolete they are nothing but extra baggage and should be discharged, you want to preserve it take it to a museum. The more we want to be regarded as disparate groups of people the more we are going to distance from each other. Humanity started as a group of people with one culture and one language and migrated and became fractured, and the language became different and different religious beliefs were created and that made us think we were different from one another, some better than others. But Humanity salvation will be its return to being just one people with one culture and one language. Whichever that language and culture might turn out to be. And if that language turn out to be Esperanto, then so be it. I just am of the opinion that there are other existing languages, English presently at the top of the list, that have a better chance of becoming that sole language.
I am not a “monoglot” so I really understand, I have been studying languages for over 50 years. And yes, a deliberate deception, since only a couple of things are being talked about, leaving out others that may be used against its adoption. I here I go again, let the people after being completely and correctly informed decide democratically and if they make the mistake of selecting the wrong language, English in your opinion and Esperanto in mine, then its stop being a mistake. It simply is what they thought was right for them based on the information at hand.
“People would still (or even: Finally!) have that right to speak and write to the EU in their native languages (with interpreters into…” (and Google Translate, really?) So they would if English is adopted, it is not being forced on them by the US and the Brits, so it is not like they will be coming marching down the Champs-Elysées and Berlin and Madrid and Brussels with their armies.
“there’s something called potential…” Yes there is and it has to be changed into movement (kinetic) in order to be useful. English have been moving into people of the World for several centuries, Esperanto has not moved much since it was creates. English have momentum, a characteristic of bodies in movement, Esperanto does not.
“I also know there is no infrastructure…” Read what you wrote and you will notice that you are only postulating more expenses and more waste creating and doing things that are already been created and done for English. “Infrastructure”
“English is decreasing in Asia and doesn’t grow in Africa”. Say it correctly, the grow of English is decreasing in Asia and is not growing in Africa, the grow of English. There are more people starting to learn English in Asia and in Africa, individually, daily than new learners of Esperanto in the world in one year. And Chinese have been a treat to English in Asia since the beginning, there are way more Chinese speaker in China alone that English speakers in the whole world, but it is the way English have grown and is growing in Asia what makes it a treat to Chinese in its own turf.
“Esperanto is a springboard to languages” No it is not, you do not need Esperanto to learn other languages and no it does not make learning other languages easier, at least not by much. And once it becomes “the language” it will be even less of a springboard. That is the kind of comment I said were either naïve or a deliberate deception, depending on whether you honestly believe it or not.
Finally, I was not talking to you but to Robb. By the way being a native does not necessarily make you better at speaking a language than someone who learned the language, except in the pronunciation in the case of hard to pronounce languages. My English may not be perfect or even as good as I want to believe it is, but it is definitely better than that of a lot of native speakers, although maybe not Robb’s since he claim to have studied English and be a teacher of the language and I do not have any reason to believe that is not case. Despite having many differences of opinion with him I think he is a honorable and truthful person, and will believe that way until he gives me reason to believe otherwise. I was using you comment as a vehicle to respond to one of his comments, pointing out the irony that I may have gotten a greater benefit from my not so good English, according to him, than he have gotten from his much better English, again according to him. So don’t twist it into a seemingly demeaning moment to the teaching profession. You may not have noticed but I herein already stated that I have also been a teacher of several different subjects. And, there is no shame in making money from one’s knowledge, acquired or innate, nor being a businessman makes you an ogre. And yes money is extremely important, for the individual and for society. And I am sorry to say that businessmen do not care more about money than other things, in general. They just think, also in general terms, that everything should be practical, useful and profitable, including helping other people. Some of them more visible and well known that others, like Bill Gate who became the richest man in the World starting with the idea of helping other people by putting a computer in every household, and who presently is helping millions by helping them become more practical, useful and profitable, for themselves and for the community they belong to.
Sorry again, I went overboard.
Ok. To me you are officialy not worth debating with anymore if we speak about Esperanto. You personally make up meanings such as “living language”, you make facts up, you are objectively blind. There’s no way debating here. Bye and good luck watching only a small part of the forest.
La aliaj prefere ne alparolu lin plu, vi jam vidas kiom diligente li pensas, ĉi tiam preferindas eviti la pluparoladon ĉar kiel legeblas ĉela unua frazo de lia lasta respondo temas pri granda tempoperdo (certe multaj jam sciis tion). Kiom da nescio pri nia lingvo, kaj kiom da fiero pri sia nescio.
Ho! Nia lingvo ne vivas, ne evoluas! Ni parolas tutsame kiel la Esperantistoj de 1887! Mi ne sciis tion; oni lernas ion novan ĉiutage! :-P
Alejandro Carlos wrote: “Esperanto is not a living language”.
As they say, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. If you want to argue that Esperanto is not a living language, you’re more than a century late. There is no debate: Esperanto is a living language, whether you like it or not.
HAHA you people are delusional. So Esperanto is a ‘living language’, for whom? The 1000 families that speak it natively? The token 1-2 million who speak it?
You people make me laugh. Let me just say, I work in finance, and I love probability and a good bet, and based on the balance of probabilities Esperanto will never be a dominant global language. At least I’m 99.9% certain of this within MY lifetime (so over the next 70 years if I’m lucky).
I’m of the opinion that there will never be an official global language, nor would there be an official EU language (again basing this on balance of probabilities, and again within my lifetime). Official languages aren’t required. Even Australia doesn’t have an official language despite obviously having a dominant primary language. There will however be languages more dominant than others (obviously), just like at present we see how these are Mandarin, Spanish and English. Will these languages become more dominant? Most likely. Will only one of them become the sole language, however? No. Will other languages disappear altogether? No (some will, just like they already are at present, but majority won’t). Will Mandarin, English and/or Spanish become de-facto unofficial languages? Yes. They already are. And these has occurred naturally, and will continue to occur naturally. No additional incentive is required, and I guarantee these languages will continue gaining relative to others, because the TRENDS suggest so. Finance is all about trends, so I have a good grip on this. You’re more idealistic than you are realistic to think otherwise, and to argue which language is supposedly ‘easier’ is different to arguing which one will become more dominant. At present the projections are Mandarin, Spanish and English. If we base it on socio-economic projections for example then Mandarin has far far higher probabilities of growing faster from an absolute perspective and in terms of global economic & political importance.
YES !
Alex, you make an excellent point about the metric system. Here in the USA people still don’t want to “go metric” – but slowly and surely they are going metric because it is the only way for the world to do business. Even the symbolic drink from the USA (shudder), Coca-Cola, can only be purchased in metric containers. Fringe areas of the US, like Puerto Rico and Hawai’i now post metric signs. I generally only speak in metric and people no longer question me. Even those who oppose the idea of metric – who are nationalists, chauvinists – have to accept metric instructions because it is simply smarter.
Our schools now talk officially about the “Englishes of the World” and I as a court translator and interpreter have been called upon to translate English-language documents from the English-speaking islands off our coast into English (American English). These are some of the most difficult translations I have to undertake beause 1) the use of words and grammar is different and 2) the laws that they refer to are different. Those who read those texts using the face value of the words they know misinterpret them fully.
And despite all the pleas and complaints from non-native speakers of one of the Englishes, native speakers quietly smile with disdain. Heck, Americans even disdain native English speakers from the islands off our coasts.
Most of those who cheer for English on this site would NOT be accepted by the department of the university where I taught for 8 years. I personally sat on those approval committees and pleaded for them – but to no avail.
When Alejandro calls me a turn coat, then he doesn’t fully understand that for his own personal good, I am on his side. I want him to have an equal chance – but using his knowledge of English, he will not get that chance – at least not in the US or UK. I teach English as a second language as a volunteer at a non-for-profit organization – I use my free time to teach English – I get no pay at all – not even for my travel there and back! – so I know what I am talking about. I work side-by-side with non-native speakers patiently helping them acquire better English. But it is very, very hard. Most of my pupils have spent years studying English back in their countries of origin. And here they are surrounded with English and are still struggling!!!
People around me have acquired Esperanto in a fraction of the time – and use it with an incredible fluency and eloquence. Not so with the Englishes of the world.
I find it truly sad that some people get so emotional about this. Some of them come from countries that have dictatorships and they think that English is an antedote – a symbol of the British or American political system as opposed to the system “back home”. This is accepting a symbol – a nationalistic symbol – for the real thing. It is a confusion of cause and effect.
Yes, of course.
Though it’s better than French, we should embrace the multilingual features of our continent.
No.
Yes.
may be but is not only important language
Absollutely NOT !
Which europe u mean the real or the german one ?
Très bonne question, Louis. Ottima domanda.
Je veux une Europe des peuples, fraternelle et égalitaire. Une Europe où la seule langue officielle serait l’anglais serait une Europe ENCORE PLUS soumise aux prédateurs, aux “dominants” etc.. Car l’anglais reste de nos jours une langue de CLASSE.
Dunque, io voglio la diversità (e questa diversità protetta dall’esperanto, lingua equa e emancipatrice).
Yes
The question refers only to “Official Language” status for the English language:
“An official language is a language that is given a special legal status in a particular country, state, or other jurisdiction. Typically a country’s official language refers to the language used within government (e.g., courts, parliament, administration).[1] Since “the means of expression of a people cannot be changed by any law”,[2] the term “official language” does not typically refer to the language used by a people or country, but by its government.”
Not of adopting only one language for all countries. Ironically, English is spoken by almost all politicians in the EU.
Besides most people in this forum want to equate English with the US and the UK but it is spoken in many other countries. Additionally, not all people who speak English think alike. Adopting English as the Official Language of the EU does not means that the Brits or the Yankees will get the upper hand, moreover if the UK bails out of the EU.
But the main point is that, presently, English is the language better positioned to be adopted as a communication vehicle between the member countries with the less effort and the most benefits. Whatever the means of how it got there. No other language is in a better or even an equal position than English to be implemented as a common language among the nations of the EU and of the World in the future.
Another irony is that if the Chinese ever control the World , they will do it through English. There are more Chinese learning English that any other language and they represent a big chunk of the total number of people learning English in the World nowadays. So if the Chinese win the Economic World War, we are going to be speaking English not Chinese. They don’t like you to know what they think so they will speak English but think Chinese.
No.
yes !!!!! in the end
yes, as its a barrier and in lack of one language and especially one voice divides us and makes us weaker.
YEP
Yes but better Chinese 😄😄
Εach state must have its official language. For instance Greece will have Greek, UK will have Welsh, English etc. All the E.E. is better to have all languages as officials but English have to be the only language that all people need to know
Each country with its language PLUS ENGLISH as a second one!
A common, secondary language for all EU members seems beneficial to me. It would FINALLY bring EU citizens closer together! It would result in less social stratification and distance, errors, frustrations and loss of time and energy when our lives touch. Instead of the 27 languages we currently can choose from there would be a binding language, to service us all when needed. A common language for when we leave our nations and move within the union. We might need it for essential communication with law enforcement or medical personnel. But certainly so for everyday life: professional, academical and intergovernmental communication, trading for lifes essentials, public transport and traffic broadcasts, exchanging ideas and information between EU citizens, social media, … And visitors from outside the EU would navigate linguistically through a more homologised EU. But which language will bring us closer? German? English? Maybe a vote/poll during the next European elections could provide answers? Simpler is better.
Am amazed at how many contributors misunderstand the question, even though it is in very simple English. To remind them: “Should English be the ONLY official language of the EU?”
To vote yes means you are happy to have all EU laws, i.e. all regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions in English only, without any official translations. EU regulations are “directly applicable in all 28 EU Member States, and are binding in their entirety”. So, unless your English is excellent – and this is not so for all of those who misunderstood the question here – you will be bound by laws you do not understand, and may be fined or imprisioned for breaking them! Think about it! Do you really want this? Turkeys voting for Christmas!
Yes, Sean, these people do not understand the question at all, and they DO NOT see how important the language question is.
Oui, Sean, ces gens ne comprennent pas du tout la question, et ne comprennent pas non plus l’importance de la question des langues, de leur instrumentalisation…
De toutes façons… ce ne sont probablement que des petits ou moyens bourgois qui répondent ici, des gens se prenant pour des “élites”.
Des peuples, des gens des 50 % (ou plus) ayant les revenus plus bas, ces “élites” s’en fichent, c’est le dernier de leurs soucis.
L’adhésion à l’anglolâtrie est un marqueur social.
They do not understand their actual laws right know, written in their own language. And they are fined and imprisioned in their own countries for not understanding the laws they already have, written in the language that is presently spoken in the only country they have lived all their lives. That is true in every country, including yours.
I am sure that you do not understand all the laws of your country, and do not know all the laws of your country in spite of being very knowledgeable of your native language, unless you are a very good attorney.
But, if every law in every country is written in English, and every citizen in every country knows English, they are going to be a lot better off than they are right know. Worse comes to worst, they will be as ignorant of their own laws as they presently are.
And everybody should strive to improve their own language, so they can understand their laws better. That includes English if it is chosen as their official language. Or are you saying that presently every person in every country speaks their language excellently.
I’ll put my bets on the race horse, not on the donkey.
Espanol! ;-)
NO
and they should all go to mac donalds for lunch
Latín for europe
No.
Article 2 de la constitution française: la langue de la République est le Français! Le reste, qui vient d’ailleurs, DEHORS!!!
Yes!
But perfect dominion of his own – and two other languages as well.
Each time you learn a new language you open in the walls of your castle a new window to beautiful new landscapes.
The only reason I would like to see English become the sole language of the EU is to get one over the French, though that’s not a very noble reason.
More reasonably, countries should protect their cultures from the dominance of English. Though I am a teacher of English to foreigners, I support the development of national cultures which the worldwide dominance of English threatens.
Esperanto would be an even better smack down: back in the League of Nations days, the French delegation vetoed Esperanto as an official/working language because at that time French was the international language. Imagine the “neener neener neener” factor of adopting Esperanto as an official and the working language of the EU today ;).
Interestingly the World Esperanto Association now enjoys consultative relations with the United Nations and is using its position to defend minority languages. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR7vD9kChBA&feature=related
English should be a official language in every member state. That should promote both the EU citizenship, communication and labor mobility.
No, that decision should never be taken without comparing it to other languages and to Esperanto. Who is afraid of comparison?
Like Russian was in the SU… No, thank you.
Zoals het Russisch was in de Sovjetunie… Neen, dank u.
Kia la rusa estis en Sovetio… Ne, dankon.
Ok Riain, let’s do it!. Let’s ignore English and go with Esperanto. I need to work and make some money as soon as possible. Tell me, how can I make some money with Esperanto today. I am very employable since I am proficient with computers, I am a Chemist; a Math, Physics, Chemistry and General Science Teacher with a long experience. I have administered business with multiples employees, I am also an accountant. But I am willing to do almost anything since I need money, NOW! I have worked in construction and I was a structural welder and a Mechanical and Architectural drafter. I have delivered newspapers and telegrams (do you know what those are?). I have driven limousines and painted houses. I am in Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Copenhagen, Oslo, Berlin, Praga, Moscow, Helsinki, or any other city in Europe.
How can I find a job based of my knowledge of Esperanto and everything else I know. Except I cannot speak English nor any of the languages of the places mentioned. Please, I need the job now not twenty years from now, I have children to feed.
The official language does not have to to with the organization of the society. Russian status in the Soviet Union was not about politics in the first hand but about communication. This is why English is necessary in order to make it easier to communicate.
English is only necessary if you ignore Esperanto. But why ignore Esperanto? You can learn it for free from the internet, http://www.lernu.net.
“English is only necessary if you ignore Esperanto. But why ignore Esperanto?”
Sorry Riain! I placed my comment in a different discussion but you can see it above. It starts with “Ok Riain, let’s do it!. Let’s ignore English and go with Esperanto”. I need your help!
Europe should be more about «freedom of choice» and less about «mandatory» obligations.
Alejandro: I stand by by question, to which you have not replied: “Why ignore Esperanto?” It is not possible to ignore English, as it is pushed on you from all angles, so your proposal is not relevant.
If you want to make money, learn English. If you want to make friends, learn Esperanto. I note that you appear to prefer money to friends. Ending with a quote from the poet, Michael Hartnett, from his final volume in English, “A Farewell to English”:
“I will not see good men go down,
Walking in rags from town to town,
Finding English a necessary sin,
The perfect language to sell pigs in.”
Sorry Sean, but you didn’t help me at all. You went out in a tangent without answering the question. I am glad that you like friends more than money, me too. Do your friends provide for you or your family all the time? Unfortunately mine do not! You need money to eat, to pay the rent, to take vacations with your family and your friends, to pay for the education of your children, etc., etc. Are you denying that? Are you capable of living without money?
But the question was not about if I or you or anybody else likes money more than friends nor was it about poetry.
I asked for your help so you could, as a friendly and knowledgeable person, give me some advice in how to use Esperanto to live in today society, without using any other language. English speakers, who do not speak any other language, do OK, so do French, German, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese speakers and those of most other languages.
The question is: Can I live and prosper in today society if I speak only Esperanto? If I speak only Esperanto and any other language? If I speak only English? If I speak only English and any other language? In which situation will I be more prepared to improve my standard of living and deal with whatever situation arises?
I admire your dedication and that of others herein to the Esperanto cause, which in very commendable and probably not without some reason in certain aspects. But if you want to be taken seriously you have to answer the hard questions honestly. And if you do that you will have to admit that Esperanto is of absolutely no help when it comes to making a living nowadays. Ideals are beautiful but nobody eats ideals, as the communist debacle, and many others clearly proved.
If you want to tell people that Esperanto is going to make a better World in the future, that is OK. But do not say that it is of any help presently, nor for the EU nor for any place else.
If you Esperanto advocates were really about freedom of choice and democracy you would have to agree that the best course of action is to take this question to a universal referendum in all the member countries of the EU. Let the people decide. After having been properly informed what are the benefits and the consequences of their vote, today, not one hundred years from now. If English is adopted the US and the Brits might gain some advantage, in addition to whatever advantage they already enjoy, but so will the millions that already speak English, you among them, and the millions already learning English, and the millions who are interested in learning the language but that for one reason or other have not started yet, including the lack of money they are trying to eliminate by learning English. If Esperanto is adopted everybody is screwed, except of course the American and the Brits who will continue with their live as if nothing have happened. Or are you saying that just by adopting Esperanto all the ills of the World will go away, or that the Americans and the Brits and all those other countries that also speak English will have to give in and kneel down and learn Esperanto or die.
So be honest, really honest. Can any person make a decent living in today society, in any country of the world, if that person only speaks Esperanto? Will the adoption of Esperanto do away with the ills of the World? Overnight? Or simply, will its adoption make the US and the Brits and all the other English speaking countries of the World behave any differently? Will Europe not have to still deal with them in English? For once answer the questions, do no go out in a tangent with some slogan or canned response.
And regarding the question: Why Ignore Esperanto? I thought I have made it very clear with my response but since you did not understand, here it is: Because, it is completely useless. It does not help anybody to improve their standard of living, today. I does not make anybody life better, today. I will not save the EU any money, TODAY! That is why. On the other hand, adopting English will not do away will all the ills of the World either nor make life that much better, but it will save millions, if not billions, of dollars, or euros if you want, to the EU and all the countries involved in any capacity with the EU. Money that in most probability will not all be used in charity, but even if only a tiny fraction is deviated to those who need it most it will do a lot of good. And will make life more bearable to millions of people in addition to saving a lot of money to the EU citizens. Hey! Maybe they will reduce your taxes!
So, will you answer honestly this time?
De toutes façons, l’actualité nous montre à quel point cette Europe actuelle est aux mains d’une poignée de banksters et d’une oligarchie qui piétine les droits des peuples.
Je suis et resterai une Européenne de coeur, mais celle-là, telle qu’on l’a construite SANS NOUS, je la vomis.
Il me parait évident que si les institutions européenne renonçaient au plurilinguisme, elles montreraient de plus en plus clairement que l’espace européen se moque de plus de la moitié de ses citoyens, considérés comme de moindre importance.
Carlos, many thanks for your interesting and thoughtful reactions. I just wanted to clear up a point: nobody I know has ever suggested that Esperanto on its own is enough. Knowledge of languages in general is an advantage. I am not blind to the advantages of English, but if you are lost in the Polish countryside, you need Polish more than any other language. But Esperanto is really good at preparing people for language study in general – the so-called propedeutical effect.
I think that all the Esperanto proponents should visits the following website:
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/
This person appearsto know more about Esperanto that the Esperanto speakers herein advocating the language.
It will be good for the language in general and for the individual speaker in particular to try to dispel the misconceptions this person is spreading. Or, is he right?
Here we go again. In almost discussion about Esperanto, there’s a smartass who posts this link.
The author of this website makes a few good points, but most of his criticism is subjective or irrelevant, and there are even some factual errors. He apparently has a good theoretical understanding of Esperanto, but the main flaw of his rant is that he never checked how it used in the real world. Like you, he doesn’t seem to understand that Esperanto is a living language spoken by real people.
He also fails to compare Esperanto with anything. His reference seems to be The Perfect World Language™, which does not and cannot exist. I could waste time writing such a criticism of English, French and Russian and it would be much, much longer.
I feel tempted to say you are the only smartass around here, but I am not going to. It will be disrespectful to you, and to all the others who want to claim that honor by advocating as perfect a language that apparently is not as perfect as they are trying to make us believe.
Of course you can post criticisms about other languages, especially English, which is what all the Esperanto advocates herein have been doing with far less knowledge about English, and the World at large, than what the author of the website appears to have about Esperanto. Nobody have ever claimed that English, or any other language for that matter, is perfect, except the Esperanto advocates claiming the supremacy of Esperanto above all other languages.
Of course any criticism you post will also be as subjective and irrelevant to many people as this comment seems to you, who want to portrait Esperanto as a living language because a handful of people, who happen to be alive, speak to each other and send each other emails.
Esperanto is not a living language, there is more living interaction in Latin than in Esperanto. It is not used in any country, by the people of that country as their only language, one used in daily life without having to depend on another language for the simplest things. It is spoken only by a handful of people who learned it from basically the same books. It is an experiment which has lasted for over 100 years without much success. It is a language that most people do not know anything about and of those who know only very, very few want to learn it. Calling it Academic is an overstatement.
German, Mandarin, French, Spanish and principally English are languages that many, many people want to learn for various reasons, voluntarily, regardless of all the imperfections those languages may have. Because they find them useful, which is something Esperanto is not, or at least people in general do not think it is. And unfortunately you calling smartass to whoever think that way will not change that fact.
vere senscia homo kiu ne povas eĉ serĉi tekste la vorton “perfect” por malblindiĝi kaj vidi ke li denove malpravas, ke neniu diris ke Eo perfektas. Mi feliĉas scii ke ĉiam restos interrete ĉi tiuj ridindaj komentoj liaj, kie li kreas siajn faktojn kaj mondon. Li daŭre ne scias kio vivanta lingvo estas, kaj ridige komparas kun la latina, dirante ke en ĝi oni interagas pli hahaha!
Alejandro… a ver, no hay quien te tome en serio al ver cómo defines a tu bola “idioma vivo” y decir ahora que el latín tiene mayor vida que el esperanto… sigue con tu empresa porque de idiomas y de esperanto sabes lo que se dice nada. Eres un ignorante en este tema que de sobra se ve te queda grande, te pillas los dedos con la puerta cada dos por tres sin aprender a callar y diciendo amén al primero que critica el esperanto… Si es que es leerte y me parto pero me das pena por hacer alarde de tu ignorancia
A ver si sabes buscar datos objetivos… cuántos libros se publican en latín al año? cuántos en esperanto? cuántos nativos en cada idioma actualmente? cuántos encuentros o congresos donde se hable en latín o esperanto? y ahora revisa tus tontas palabras “Esperanto is not a living language, there is more living interaction in Latin than in Esperanto”
El tío del enlace es otro ignorante como tú al que le viene genial que su querido inglés sea lo que es ahora. Sus textos son tan largos, errados, chauvinistas y subjetivos que no merece la pena comentar. ¿En la misma línea del autor… eres consciente de lo largo que sería una crítica a un idioma étnico para ser idioma puente, esos idiomas que apoyas tu tantísimo como idiomas puente? ¿Pero tú comparas acaso?
As I have said before, Esperanto advocacy is in most part just fanaticism. It is just a very small group of people that according to themselves know more than the rest of Humanity, about what is good to Humanity. We, the people of the World have seen and heard that before, many times, and whoever followed those fanatics ended in the wrong side of the joke. Fortunately people don’t pay too much attention to them and continue with their lives, learning other more useful languages, like English.
And as I expected, you again went out on a limb talking about something else.
The comparison with Latin was undoubtedly an exaggeration but your limited understanding of English did not allowed comprehension. And you walked right into it. Latin is used in the Vatican, although the new Pope have just ditched it as the official language and many priests used it as their only means of communication for many years, despite being considered a dead language.
(https://mcl.as.uky.edu/podcasts/latin-not-dead-latin-living-language-jonathan-meyer).
Living language: “A language that is used as an EVERYDAY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION AMONG PEOPLE AND WITH CHANGES OVER TIME AS PEOPLE CHANGE THEIR HABITS.” By the way just in case your limited understanding of anything not said in Esperanto gives you a different meaning. Is that quote “everyday” means that people use it in their daily lives, their work, at school, in the supermarket and to buy ticket for a movie or play. Not that you write an email to someone or call them up to practice a language you learned.
“(http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_living_language).
In a previous comment Google was mentioned by an Esperanto advocate as being useful in helping in the transition into a Esperanto speaking World. That says you Esperanto speakers trust Google, well, google “important languages” and Esperanto does not show its face, not even once.
As I said in a previous comment “So be honest, really honest. Can any person make a decent living in today society, in any country of the world, if that person only speaks Esperanto?” I also asked “give me some advice in how to use Esperanto to live in today society, without using any other language.” And finally I repeat myself “The question is: Can I live and prosper in today society if I speak only Esperanto?” “In which situation will I be more prepared to improve my standard of living and deal with whatever situation arises?”
Now go ahead and make another useless speech, it does not matter what language you do it in. But first answer those questions, honestly!
And, Alex, it is very uncourteous, to put it mildly, to answer a person in a language different than the one being used in the conversation, moreover if you think the person will not understand what you said, that is regarding you unflattering comment in Esperanto. And Spanish in my native language. But you see, this is a debate in English so I decided to ignore your bad manners and answer you, but of course in English, which is the proper thing to do so that every one of those participating could understand what is being said.
I advise you that if your interest is in practicing your Esperanto skills then go to an Esperanto blog and debate to your heart’s content, and for Spanish, I do not have anything against my native language except that this is a debate in English about a question posted in English regarding a particular situation with the English language.
I think it is well established that you are capable of knowing what we’re saying when we comment in Esperanto.
Esperanto does change over time, and has changed noticeably since Zamenhof’s time, at least as much as English has in the same time period. For example, “sen fari” (without doing) was not used in the early works, but is now very common and accepted, and similar use of infinitives after prepositions is increasing. And I could provide many other examples.
Esperanto speaker help!, Why was the question in the following debate posted in English? It should have been poste in Esperanto to allow those who only speak Esperanto to express their opinión.
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2011/08/03/should-esperanto-be-the-language-of-europe/
And how come that given the activism of the Esperanto speakers there is so little participation? Just by posting the question in English are you not saying that there will be more people reading and participating in the blog than if it is posted in Esperanto.
It appears to me that the more you try to defend Esperanto the more evident it becomes that it simple is not the suitable choice.
Why is the question not in Esperanto? I don’t know, that seems odd. Why so little participation? Probably because it’s not in Esperanto :-P.
English:
I ask again: WHO launched the question “Should English be the only official language of the EU?”?
Esperante:
Me redemandas: KIU ĵetis la demandon, ĉu la angla estu la sola oficiala lingvo de EU?
In het Nederlands:
Ik stel opnieuw de vraag: WIE heeft de vraag gelanceerd of het Engels de enige officiële taal van de EU moet zijn?
Se post monato ne estos respondo al mia ĉi-supra demando, mi supozos, ke neniu starigis tiun demandon, ke ĝi do falis de la ĉielo, aŭ eble, ke la demandinto ne kuraĝas konfesi sian agon, ĉar mia plua demando kompreneble estos pri la celo de tiu demando.
Eble iu starigis ĝin, sed ne plu atentas ĝin.
Se post monato ne estos respondo al mia ĉi-supra demando, mi supozos, ke neniu starigis tiun demandon, ke ĝi falis de la ĉielo, aŭ eble, ke la demandinto ne kuraĝas konfesi sian agon, ĉar mia plua demando povus temi pri iu kaŝita celo de tiu demando.
Moi aussi, je demande la même chose que M. Leo De Cooman. Et comment cela se fait-il que tout est en anglais, Est-ce un but caché de vouloir imposer que l’anglais à toute l’Europe ? Cela pour moi est une dictature et de la discrimination et le non respect des langues de ceux qui ne sont pas anglais. En particulier en France où ils ne respectent même pas le français nous y imposant que l’anglais à la place. Si vous venez en France, vous verrez l’anglais partout et pas autre chose, nous combattons cela contre l’anglais partout et pour tous.
Oui, chère Madame. Nombreuses sont les affaires orchestrées derrière nos dos dans les coulisses suivant des accords secrets qui ont eu lieu dès 1961 à Cambridge entre la Grande-Bretagne et les États-Unis pour réaliser le rêve exprimé de Mr. Churchill: “Je suis très intéressé par la question de la langue anglaise basique. L’utilisation généralisée de ceci serait un gain bien plus durable et profitable que l’annexion de grandes provinces.“ (BBC, juillet 1943, à propos du “Basic English” qui permit de faire croire au mythe de l’anglais facile.)
Le gain annuel s’exprime en nombres à dix chiffres pour la Grande Bretagne seul déjà, comme vous pouvez lire en détail dans le rapport du prof. Grin à http://www.hce.education.fr/gallery_files/site/21/104.pdf (pour autant que le “big brother” ne l’a pas encore bloqué).
Cela s’appelle “démocratie”. :-(
Jes, kara sinjorino. Multaj aferoj estas aranĝataj malantaŭ nia dorso, post la kulisoj, laŭ sekretaj akordoj faritaj ekde 1961 en Kambriĝo inter Britujo kaj Usono por realigi la revon esprimitan de s-ro Churchill: “Min tre interesas la afero de la baza angla. Ĝia ĝeneraligita uzo estus gajno multe pli daŭra ol la aneksado de grandaj provincoj.” (BBC, julio 1943, okaze de “baza angla”, kiu ebligis kredigi la miton de la facila angla.)
La jara gajno esprimiĝas per dekciferaj nombroj jam nur por Britujo. Tion vi povas detale legi en la raporto de profesoro Grin ĉe http://lingvo.org/grin/raporto_grin_eo.pdf (se “granda frato” ankoraŭ ne blokis la retejon).
Tio nomiĝas “demokratio” :-(
Nederlandstaligen kunnen de studie van prof. Grin lezen op http://lingvo.org/grin/raporto_grin_nl.pdf (als “big brother” het nog niet heeft laten sluiten).
In oktober 2005 verscheen een rapport besteld door het Franse ministerie van onderwijs bij prof. François Grin (Univ. Genève): http://cisad.adc.education.fr/hcee/documents/rapport_Grin.pdf
Daarin staat uitgelged, hoe wegens de huidige internationale overheersing van het Engels, het Verenigd Koninkrijk alleen al elk jaar 17-18 miljard euro opstrijkt alleen al uit de EU. Dat is 1% van het Brits nationaal product. De 394 miljoen niet-Engelstaligen van de EU subsidiëren zo de Britse economie en de taalkolonisatie, die hen zelf tot tweederangsburgers maakt.
En oktobro 2005 aperis raporto farita laŭ mendo de la francuja ministerio pri edukado ĉe profesoro François Grin (Ĝeneva universitato): http://cisad.adc.education.fr/hcee/documents/rapport_Grin.pdf
En ĝi legeblas, kiel pro la nuna internacia superrego de la angla, Britujo sola enspezas 17-18 miliardojn da eŭroj nur el la EU. Tio estas 1% de la malneta nacia enspezo de Britujo. Tiel 394 milionoj da EUaj ne-anglalingvuloj subvenciadas la britan ekonomion kaj la lingvan koloniigon, per kiu ili mem iĝas duarangaj civitanoj.
Dat is heel interssant en ik ben grotendeels eens met dit verslag, meestal omdat met ‘alleen Engels’ mensen met Engels als eerste taal zullen de beste banen in Europa hebben.
Hier is hetzelfde rapport:
http://www.ladocumentationfrancaise.fr/var/storage/rapports-publics/054000678.pdf
Het verslag heft andere geode links, bijvoorbeeld:
‘English mother tongue only… 1000 European jobs for English native speakers’, http://lingvo.org/zz/2/15
En ook:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2000-4100+0+DOC+XML+V0//FR
If people talked about me I would not join to the company… In this debate Britons should stay away. Because they simply don’t know how much effort it is to learn a foreign language. (Only 7000 students did a final exam from foreign languages in Britain last year… In my country 140 000 had to… The number of inhabitants is only 1/6 of that of Britain…
Love
Woaho ! Why should every people learn english ?. Is it the most clearful , the most easy language to speak and understand in the world ? Certainly not ! How hars is the englis fonetic , by exemple !
Why english is ruling all over the world now ? Well, after the consequences of the british empire (till the second world war), came the enormous power of USA (political, militar and commercial). Even the “communist” China” use it to make money … and may be in the future begin the world post powerfull land !
About the European union : it’s a pure capitalist system – no pity to those peoples that cannot pay to the banks (look at Greece !) while the different governments have saved the banks in 2008 crisis ! We don’nt want such an “Europe” We want a very “Europe of the peoples”. Eutrope : more than 40 countries and languages ! How to respect every ‘s culture ? The only solution is in a second auxiliary language, in order that no one profites domination upon the others. It does exist since 128 years : the international language named esperanto. Prove it !
PS : may be my english is ratherly bad, but I don’t care ! Let english people too try to speak foreign languages !
Les mendo un salud profundo al todos los que habalan portugues, espanol, italiano.
Ich hoffe die Deutsche wird sein sprache sprechen, nicht english !!
Mi salutas al chiuj demokratoj de Europo. Pierre
This website nicely explains all that is wrong with Esperanto as an international auxilliary language
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/#_
What a totally destructive and negative comment from Radambc Please check http://www.lernu.net or http://eurotalk.com/en/store/learn/esperanto
Ĉi tiu retejo precipe montras ĉion, kio ne taŭgas pri la angla. La ĉefa argumento por uzi la anglan ŝajnas, ke ĝi ĉiel estas altrudita kaj altrudata al la mondo. Alivorte, la argumento de la angloŝatantoj estas: “la koloniigo ekzistas, tial ĝi estu daŭrigata”
Deze webstek toont vooral al wat niet deugt met het Engels. Het belangrijkste argument om het Engels te gebruiken lijkt, dat het op alle manieren opgedrongen werd en wordt aan de wereld. Anders gezegd, de redenering van de anglofielen is: “de kolonisatie is er, daarom moet ze voortgezet worden.”
Mastro sialingve ordonas al siaj sklavojn kaj postulas, ke ili scipovu lian lingvon.
Mi emas ne obei tian mastron. Sklaveco estas nuligita… almenaŭ teorie kaj surpapere.
Een meester beveelt zijn slaven in zijn taal en eist dat zij zijn taal kennen.
Ik ben geneigd aan zulke meester niet te gehoorzamen. Slavernij is opgeheven … tenminste theoretisch en op papier.
Alejandro Carlos wrote: “Latin is used in the Vatican”
Are you suggesting Esperanto is also dead because the Vatican use it in its weekly radio podcasts?
http://eo.radiovaticana.va/
Just kidding!
A. C. wrote: “Esperanto is not a living language, there is more living interaction in Latin than in Esperanto”
Living language:
A language which is still spoken in the contemporary period, as opposed to a dead language.
Source: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/living_language
Dead language:
A language which is no longer in everyday spoken use, such as Latin.
Source: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/dead-language
Conclusion: Esperanto is living and Latin is dead, exactly the opposite of your assertion. But don’t take my word for it. Please go ahead and try to explain to the +/- 300.000 users of the Esperanto facebook community that they are using a dead language in their everyday life, and I don’t mean just through facebook, I mean with their family, kids, friends, etc.
A. C. wrote: “It is not used in any country, by the people of that country as their only language, one used in daily life without having to depend on another language for the simplest things.”
That is more or less a description for a minority language. You go ahead and explain to the speakers of Catalan in Spain that their language is dead. If you survive, come back and tell us how well you did (and how you managed to survive).
A. C. wrote: “It is spoken only by a handful of people who learned it from basically the same books.”
In case you didn’t notice, each and every language is learned basically from the same books, that is, language textbooks. Today people use also Internet to learn languages, including Esperanto. Only difference is, they can learn Esperanto up to ten times faster than other languages.
A. C. wrote: “It is an experiment which has lasted for over 100 years without much success.”
Wrong again. It was created as an experiment published in 1887, entering the category of fully living language in 1905. It survived the repression of Stalin, Hitler and other less noticeable idiots, besides surviving two world wars. I would rate that as one of the most successful languages in the world.
A. C. wrote: ”It is a language that most people do not know anything about and of those who know only very, very few want to learn it.”
Maybe that’s one of the reasons why those who learn it feel the need to tell others how logical and user-friendly Esperanto is compared to other languages. A language you can basically learn in 3 months and achieve fluency in 1 or 2 years, as opposed to other languages taking 5 to 15 years to get you to a level that still isn’t good enough to compete for a job in the marketplace. There is no way to compete against the “native English” requirement, or the “native whatever language” requirement.
A. C. wrote: “Nobody have ever claimed that English, or any other language for that matter, is perfect, except the Esperanto advocates claiming the supremacy of Esperanto above all other languages.”
There is no such thing as a perfect language. I can’t find anyone here saying Esperanto is a perfect language. But I may be wrong, so please correct me in that case by giving a reference to that particular statement.
As for the critics made by J. B. Rye, I personally don’t understand why would a person take such an effort trying to justify why not to learn Esperanto. It sounds as absurd as why not to learn Spanish, English, or any other language. What’s the point? If you don’t like the positive facts of Esperanto, for example, that it is up to ten times faster to learn than other languages, why try so desperately to avoid that others learn it? All of this makes me think that Rye is just one of those less noticeable opponents of Esperanto.
But that is just my personal opinion about Rye. Here is a more factual and analytical conclusion about Rye’s critics:
“The only conclusion possible is that J. B. Rye is not familiar with the language he discusses. He has failed to comprehend its basic feature, and this vitiates his whole approach, even if part of his criticism is valid and sensible. Whether this part is relevant in practice for people who want the best, the most practical, the most cost effective means of intercultural communication presently available is another question, that won’t be treated here. What is important is that J. B. Rye’s view of Esperanto is constricted by his tunnel vision. He is so ensconced in his “parts of speech” tunnel that he doesn’t see the whole landscape.”
Claude Piron (psychologist and a translator for the United Nations).
Hi Robert, welcome to the conversation. Despite your English sounding name it seems your understanding of the language is as limited as that of many others here. First I never said Esperanto is a dead language, although it may as well be given its practical, day to day, usefulness. And I don’t know if you know but even though Latin was deemed a dead language many, many years ago, it continued to be used by many priests, in an EVERYDAY manner for many years. It still is, in the Vatican and among many other priests whose only way of communicating between themselves is through Latin, since it is the only language they have in common. Less so nowadays and diminishing more every day with languages being easier to learn than ever before. And regarding the Vatican broadcasting in Esperanto, come on they are Catholics and they will use any means they can in order to proselytize. They will welcome all the Esperanto speakers they can convert.
Also, I can use the internet, (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dead_language) “Dead Language: A language that no longer have any native speakers”. Yeah, I know that Esperantists want that those who were taught the language by their parents from an early age be define as “native speakers” but according to Collins Dict. (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/first-language) “First Language: A person’s native language” and “Native Language: The language of the country that someone is born in or native to”. I hope that your English understanding measures up because (I will explain just in case) there are no native Esperanto speakers and Esperanto is NOT the first language of anybody. There is no country in which Esperanto is the language of the people.
(http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/a-living-language) “Living Language: a language that people still speak and use in their ordinary lives” (do I need to explain what ordinary lives means, it means going to the supermarket and buying food, it means going to work and getting paid for what you do, it means going to the hospital and getting medical attention, that is what it means.)
From Ethnologue.com (https://www.ethnologue.com/statistics) “A living language is defined as one that has at least one speaker for whom it is their first language; extinct languages and languages that are used only as a second language are excluded from these counts.” Esperanto is used as a second language (or a third or fourth or fifth) by each and every Esperanto speaker, without exception. You know how I know? Because none of the debaters here advocating Esperanto have been able, or willing, to explain to me how (and I quote myself) “As I said in a previous comment “So be honest, really honest. Can any person make a decent living in today society, in any country of the world, if that person only speaks Esperanto?” I also asked “give me some advice in how to use Esperanto to live in today society, without using any other language.” And finally I repeat myself “The question is: Can I live and prosper in today society if I speak only Esperanto?”
In response to your “That is more or less a description for a minority language” The difference is that the minority language speakers did not go out of their way to learn the minority language if was taught to them by their parents. And God forbid you ever tell a Catalan he cannot live just using his own language. There are many Catalans who do not want to speak any other language, and they do perfectly well without any other language as long as they live in Cataluña. I worked several years for a Catalan company and if you are not a foreigner you cannot work for them if you do not speak Catalan fluently. (So that you do not take my words out of context, I am referring to this particular company, I am not saying that the same is true for any other Catalan company.)
Yes it is true that most everybody learn their language form basically the same books, but whatever they learn is influenced and modified by the vernacular they encounter every day. There is no vernacular in Esperanto. I do agree that you can learn Esperanto much faster than English, and that many other language too, but why would I want to if it does not make my life easier and better.
And yes, Esperanto advocates have not said that Esperanto is perfect, but they cannot find any flaws on it. If you consider there are no flaws in something then you consider that thing perfect, even though you do not say it is perfect.
“even if part of his criticism is valid and sensible.” You do not throw away the good with the bad. If part of his criticism is faulty them we discard it but use the portion that is valid. At least that is what most sensible people do.
The Esperanto advocates “view of Esperanto is constricted by their tunnel vision.” They are so ensconced in their “Esperanto is ten times easier to learn than English” they do not see the whole landscape.” By the way the landscape I am referring to is very narrow. “You cannot use Esperanto to eat, work and have fun.” That is what people want when they learn their own language or any other. Otherwise, please answer the questions I have asked several times and none of you has answered yet. (see above or many of my other comments).
Just because a very small group of people try to convince all the rest of the world they are right does not make them right, Examples are many but just a few. Communists, Nazis, ISIS. And in the case of the Communists and the Nazis, they were more numerous than Esperantists. Let´s hope that is not the case with ISIS.
Okay, let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that my name is Cristina Gomez, and my parents immigrated to the US from Mexico. So I was born in the US, and have never been to Mexico in my life. Now, the language of the US is US English, right? But I (we are supposing) grew up speaking Spanish in my everyday life, and although I of course also learned English, I’m still more comfortable speaking Spanish. But by your definitions, we would have to conclude, that Spanish is my second language! Can’t you see how absurd that is?
Hi, Christa. Unfortunately yes, it will be your second language, at least from the fluency point of view. If you were an immigrant, even if you were born in you country of origin and started learning you language before ever attempting English, but emigrated being a small child, let’s say between 2 to 4 or five the likelihood of you getting to be an adult which is more comfortable in his/her first language learned are pretty slim. Once you start school the pressure, peer and otherwise, is so great than most children reject the language of their parents. Those that for various reason do like to speak in their original language will never be as fluent as those growing in their original country unless they are the rare exceptions who go ahead and make more than a conscious effort to learn the language. That is said from experience, having been an immigrant with a small child and a teacher of countless others in the same situation.
@ Alejandro Carlos
You wrote: “First I never said Esperanto is a dead language”. But you said: “Esperanto is not a living language”. Maybe my English is not so good, but to me it sounds like another way to say it’s dead without using the word “dead”.
You wrote: “Esperanto is used as a second language (or a third or fourth or fifth) by each and every Esperanto speaker, without exception”. Then you explain that you came to that conclusion based on the fact that other debaters advocating Esperanto didn’t answer your questions on this. That is not a valid conclusion at all. You can’t base a conclusion on the silence of others, don’t you think?
The fact is that there really are people who speaks Esperanto as their first/native language. This fact is based not only in some of those native speakers talking about it publicly on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzDS2WyemBI), but also in papers made by different specialists in linguistics.
In his research “Nativization processes in L1 Esperanto“, cognitive science professor Benjamin K. Bergen writes that “Esperanto is spoken not only as a second language, by its proponents, but also as a native language by children of some of those proponents”.
In his textbook “General Linguistics”, professor Fred Karlsson at the University of Helsinki, says: “There are even people whose first language is Esperanto because their parents were Esperantists”.
In his “Native Esperanto as a Test Case for Natural Language”, Jouko Lindstedt, professor of Slavonic Philology at the University of Helsinki, writes the following: “Esperanto has some properties of a natural language, including about 1,000 first language speakers”.
All of these facts and evidences make me conclude that Esperanto native speakers are a reality, not some wishful thinking from Esperanto advocates.
Ok Robert, many things have been said about Esperanto, in favor and against and we can continue going back and forth until a language that is not Esperanto becomes the World’s Lingua Franca. Or not. It may be Esperanto the one that becomes it. However, the fact remains that none of my questions have been answered. Simple questions. But before I repeat the questions again…
Esperanto is not a dead language, things that have never been alive cannot die.
Esperanto is just an experiment that has lasted too long, and by the way I am not proposing the experiment should be ended, it is not my call since it is not my experiment. Whenever you see a definition of Esperanto it is called an auxiliary or constructed language. Besides, I did not use my definitions but those of respected linguistic sources. Or are you going to said that Collins Dictionary is wrong? The fact that your parents speak a language they learned as a second language and they decide to teach you that language as the first language you learn simultaneously with their real native language does not make it you native language, otherwise there could be native speakers of Klingon or of any of their numerous contenders.
The fact remains you can call it anyway you want but presently there is not any country for which Esperanto is the “language of the land”, There have never been one so it cannot even be compared to other languages that at some point in time were the exclusive language of a country or even of an ethnic group of people and that for some reason or other, including violence, lost their preponderance.
It may be considered the most successful of the constructed languages but still it is nothing but a constructed language, with a limited following after more than 100 years of militant advocacy. If you want to call it a “living language” because a few people use it daily in their communication with other militant advocates, to talk about their personal stuff, +suit yourself. If you want to say that there are native speakers because some nutty parents in their militant advocacy decided to teach their children Esperanto so they could claim it was their primary language, suit yourself. It does not make any difference! Things are what they are regardless of what they are called.
Now, are you or are you not going to answer my questions regarding the validity of your, and all other Esperanto advocates herein, claims. “So be honest, really honest. Can any person make a decent living in today society, in any country of the world, if that person only speaks Esperanto?” I also asked “give me some advice in how to use Esperanto to live in today society, without using any other language.” And finally I repeat myself “The question is: Can I live and prosper in today society if I speak only Esperanto?”
That is my contention, because you can make a very decent and prosperous living in any of the languages you want to relegate to a second place. And my other contention is that people prefer to learn a difficult language that cost them money but that provides them with the opportunity or at least the possibility of improving their lives and that of their families.
Answer that I will shut up forever but if you cannot then you should have the decency to shut up yourself, at least for a little while.
And please do not go out in a tangent explaining to me how much better society is going to be one hundred years from now. I was already there in the middle of it, and grew with it, the biggest, most notorious and cruel deception the World have ever witness. And everything started because the World was going to be better after the whole society had embraced it, the only thing the World had to do was to listen to them.
Did not work, it crumbled from its own weight and demostrated that it is not true that a lie will become a true if repeated enough times. Just in case my English is as bad as Robb likes to constantly point and it is impossible for you to understand, I am referring to Communism. So please, refrain from it.
This is what I am referring to when I said there is a greater likelihood of English becoming the World’s Lingua Franca than Esperanto.
http://jakubmarian.com/languages-voted-most-useful-in-the-eu-by-country/
Where is Esperanto in the Europeans predilection? That is regardless of Esperanto being considered a Living, a Dead or a Zombie language. European see English as more useful even than other languages in the region. More possibilities, more opportunities and a wider area of application = more usefulness and greater benefits. So, following the European people’s preference, which should we adopt, if one is to be adopted?
Ok alejandro. It’s enough. I have experience with Esperanto and you have ignorance about it. You are being very rude calling Esperanto a language that has never been alive. You are insulting a lot of partners and families with those unhuman words. There is love there, you can’t call “dead/never alive” a language they’ve been using since these partners met each other through this language. I’m getting to know some of them these day so please shout up
You are an ignorant and as a plain ignorant in this field you should stop comparing English with something you don’t know at all. Do you want another hint? You were wrong… Amikejo (moresnet) was an Esperanto country
Here is your brilliant knowledge, once again:
“The fact remains you can call it anyway you want but presently there is not any country for which Esperanto is the “language of the land”, ***There have never been one*** so it cannot even be compared to other languages that at…”
Thank you Alex for that bit of knowledge. I stand corrected, I didn’t know that! It would have been great if the experiment, or the movement if you prefer to call it that, had been successful. Unfortunately, presently you have to speak about it in the past tense, and I do not say this to rebuke you, I really consider it a pity it did not succeed in the long run, it would have given Esperantists something to hang their hats on. I also hope you don’t try to blame its disappearance to English or any English speaking country. The elimination of the first and only Esperanto state was solely a continental Europe thing. It is not clear to me if they only declared themselves as an Esperanto state or if the country was actually recognized by other countries, though.
Other than that, the rest of your discourse is just academic. From the theoretical point of view if you teach a child a language before he or she start learning and speaking the language he or she will really have to use the rest of his or her life to be understood in the place were he or she lives, then you can call it his or her first language, and if you want to equate “first language” with “native language” like many people do, you can also call it his or her native language. But unless the parents of that child really “force” the child to continue learning and using the language, the child will soon stop using it and will forget it in due time. I you disagree with me in this last point I would advise you to talk with the millions of immigrants dealing with that problem everyday, and most of them loosing that battle. I fought that battle for many years, loosing ground every day. Fortunately for me, or should I say for my son, he went back to our country to visit his grandmother and met a girl, God bless her soul, and his interest in Spanish was renewed.
So according to you and your quotes there are about 1000 or more person whose first (not their primary) language is Esperanto. I will not call them “native speakers”, not yet. The rest is just verbal sparring.
@ Alejandro Carlos
Hi again, Alejandro. You said that things are what they are regardless of what they are called. I agree. Esperanto is a living language because it is a demonstrably fact, not an opinion. You can like it or dislike it, or even insist on calling it an experiment, it doesn’t matter. You can twist it as much as you want, but it is still a fact. Here is yet another evidence: the Hungarian Academy of Sciences has found that Esperanto fulfills all the requirements of a living language. (http://www.esperanto.hu/egyeb/elte-konf.rtf).
Then you go on saying that “I did not use my definitions but those of respected linguistic sources. Or are you going to said that Collins Dictionary is wrong?”. Well, let’s play for a while the definitions game.
According to Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary:
–> native speaker: a person who speaks a language as their first language and has not learned it as a foreign language.
SOURCE: http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/native-speaker?q=native+speaker
–> first language: the language that you learn to speak first as a child; the language that you speak best.
SOURCE: http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/first-language?q=first+language
There you go. No mention to the country that someone is born in or native to.
All your arguments point ultimately to your three unanswered questions:
1) Can any person make a decent living in today’s society, in any country of the world, if that person only speaks Esperanto?
2) How do you use Esperanto to live in today’s society, without using any other language?
3) Can I live and prosper in today’s society if I speak only Esperanto?
The way I see it, these three questions have a catch. It’s very simple. You just change the word “Esperanto” for “English” in each of the questions:
1) Can any person make a decent living in today’s society, in any country of the world, if that person only speaks English?
Obviously the answer is no.
2) How do you use English to live in today’s society, without using any other language?
That would be quite difficult, unless you stay only in certain countries of the world, for example, England, USA, Australia, etc.
3) Can I live and prosper in today’s society if I speak only English?
Even if you live in an English speaking country, it is not certain that you can prosper or improve your life speaking only English.
So why answer those questions about Esperanto, a minority language, when in fact even the most powerful dominant language of the world is not up to the task?
Besides, the way you formulate the questions, emphasizing the only-in-one-language requirement, denotes a tendency that is not present in the spirit of Esperanto. Quite the contrary, one of the most important goals of Esperanto is to be a second or alternative easy to use language for anyone willing to learn it. Never the only language. By the way, it is quite possible to have more than one native/first language, so even those who have Esperanto as a first/native language, always speaks at least two languages. By contrast, and not surprisingly, national languages lack this openness towards other languages, functioning more as a barrier that delimits the own territory and colonies. The more dominant a national language is, the more reluctant towards other languages it seems. That’s why the British are officially the worst language learners in Europe, according to a survey published by the European Commission.
I have also found that among those who speaks Esperanto, it seems that most of them speaks 2, 3 or even more languages. So I would say that Esperanto speakers are pro-multilingualism. It’s no surprise that the question posted in this site, “should English be THE ONLY official language of the EU?”, sounds rather shocking to people who are pro-multilingualism, whether they speak Esperanto or not.
I can understand if you get upset by the enthusiasm of some advocates of Esperanto, to the point of considering them as fanatics. But what I find less understandable, is your attempts to draw parallels between esperantists and Communists, or Nazis or even ISIS. That is so absurd, that the only explanation I can think of is that you are not just upset, you are very pissed off at Esperanto. I would feel ashamed of myself if I have contributed to make you feel this way, but I sincerely think that I was just making my best at presenting the facts.
Regarding whether or not there are native speakers or not, well that will depend on how you want to look at it and how you want to interpret the situation. You can read my comment to Alex on the same topic, just above.
And Robert dodging the bullet will not get you out of the conundrum you have placed yourself into. Your answer is a very demagogic way of not saying anything.
“Well, let’s play for a while the definitions game” just read them again and you will easily notice how you are deceiving yourself. The first language that you learn is not necessarily the one you speak best. Millions of people who emigrated as children are a testimony to that, you, apparently, are not one of them. Most do not speak their “first/native language” well and many do not speak it at all. Yes I know and I agree, most Esperantists are geniuses and when they decide to teach Esperanto to their kids they make sure that is the language they are going to speak best. Which is not that difficult since they use Esperanto to study at school, to play sports, to watch the movies they like, to talk with the majority of their friends, to fall in love, to buy groceries, to open an account at the nearest bank, to buy insurance for the car they just bought using the language at their favorite dealer and in every other situation they happen to encounter in their ordinary, day to day life. Those children do not need an incredible pressure form their “nutty professor” parents to stay the course and understand that it is not only important to their parent they become “native” speakers of Esperanto but that it is crucial to the future of the movement. I am not saying it is wrong, I am just saying it was their parents agenda and not theirs. Normally you do not choose your “first/native” language nor it is forced upon you, it is the consequence of circumstances beyond your control. You were born in a specific place or your parents did and they want to preserve what they perceive as their cultural heritage. They want you to identify yourself with such a culture, it is not something the child decide on his own.
And (not all my arguments, but on I wanted you and others to answer) I am not going to repeat my questions they are posted elsewhere herein.
Your answer: (I said “ANY” not “EVERY”)
“The way I see it, these three questions have a catch. It’s very simple. You just change the word “Esperanto” for “English” in each of the questions:
1) Can any person make a decent living in today’s society, in “ANY” country of the world, if that person only speaks English?
Obviously the answer is no.
Definitely you are so right, what was I thinking? There are not millions of people doing that presently in many countries, lots of them in non English speaking countries. Lots of them Americans, Brits, Australians and other whose only language happens to be English and do not speak any other language but work and live in other countries, and still they make more than a decent living. Or do you deny that is a fact?
2) How do you use English to live in today’s society, without using any other language?
That would be quite difficult, unless you stay only in certain countries of the world, for example, England, USA, Australia, etc.
Well, why repeat myself, see the answer to the previous question, but then again even if you can only do it in certain countries of the world (which by the way are many more than the U.S, the U.K. and Australia). Which are the countries in which you can do that with Esperanto.
3) Can I live and prosper in today’s society if I speak only English?
Even if you live in an English speaking country, it is not certain that you can prosper or improve your life speaking only English.
Nothing is guaranteed in today’s society except Death and Taxes. And I agree, not everybody prosper and improve their lives despite only speaking English, but the majority does, and if not the majority at least a large number of them. How about those who only speak Esperanto (which I do not think there is even one person that fit that description), would they be able to prosper and improve their lives with only Esperanto. Where? The beauty with English is that many people who learned it as a second language has been able to get more out of it than out of their own “first/native” language. How many have done that with Esperanto? Sorry! I forgot! They need another language to just function in the society they were born into and live in.
I can accept that you and many others, and respect you for it, believe Esperanto is a better alternative to any other language, as a common language for the World at large, but denying the obvious will not gain you any new adepts. Esperanto may be better, according to you and a few others (I am sorry but 1 or 2 million out of 7 thousand million does not qualify as too many) but there are almost a thousand million or more people that decided, even if they thought other languages were better as a World language, to learn English and use it to better their personal situation, and a billion is way more that one or two million, if there is that many, nobody is sure.
“emphasizing the only-in-one-language requirement, denotes a tendency that is not present in the spirit of Esperanto.”
Sorry, it has nothing to do with the spirit of the language, simple put, you can not function anywhere in the World if you only speak.
“Quite the contrary, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT GOALS of Esperanto is to be a SECOND OR ALTERNATIVE easy to use language for anyone willing to learn it. Never the only language…” (Are you listening to yourself?) If the goal is to be a second or alternative language, why is it so important that it be considered a “first/native” language.
And please, you do not need to feel bad or ashamed of yourself. I am NOT upset or angry with Esperanto or with Esperantists, and definitely not you. I consider them in their vast majority as good people. I do not say “all” because there is always at least one bad apple in every bushel. That is not why I compared them with Communist, etc. I was only drawing a parallelisms in the positions adopted. A very small group trying to make the majority believe they have a better alternative to what the majority think. Of course I do not think that Esperantists will kill millions for not agreeing with their ideas like the communists did, nor will they try to exterminate those who think differently or that they perceive as inferiors, like the Nazis did and definitely I do not believe they will kill innocents or those who speak a different language to force the rest of the World to accept their ways. But you do not have to be violent to be a fanatic, you only have to deny the obvious without any real basis for your denial.
My mistake. I wrongly interpreted “in ANY country of the world” as “in WHATEVER country of the world”. There is no way you can compare English with Esperanto, and you know it. Your questions are thus redundant. That would be like comparing Latin with English in the middle of the glorious roman empire. Haven’t we learned anything from that? It’s already happened many times with other languages. I think it’s time we separate language from politics, just like we are beginning to do with religions and politics. It is a sad tragedy what happens to English and other languages for the sake of political-economical interests.
People try to make a decent living, of course they do. And many of them choose English as a mean to achieve that. But that is not the main reason why English is the dominant language. The main reason is that the most powerful and prosper nations in the world speak English. The governments of those nations take advantage of that endorsing English as way to get more money and thus more power. They don’t care about people making a good living or not, they don’t even care about the English language, they just use it to get what they want. And this is not just academic or demagogy, I’m talking about almost 20 billion Euros per year paid to UK by the rest of the European people.
I think that generally Esperanto speakers, like those who are pro-multilingualism, are very aware that Europe would be an even more unjust place for all its people if English is imposed/elected as the official language, or even worst, the only official language of Europe. Even if it is elected in a democratic vote, that would just mean that you “democratically” elected something unjust, probably out of plain ignorance, but most certainly influenced by those with a vested economic and political interest. It’s like those democratic elections in certain countries of the world. Yeah, let’s vote for that guy, a bunch of nuts is yelling that he is a dictator, but he promises work for me and my family right now, fair enough. Why bother about others or the future, right?
The native/first language issue with immigrants it’s rather interesting. I’ve met people who immigrated to other countries at a young age and still they didn’t learn to speak the new language better than their first/native one. I guess it’s all about integration, family bounds and interaction with other immigrants of the same origin.
“If the goal is to be a second or alternative language, why is it so important that it be considered a “first/native” language.”
Esperanto native speakers are almost an anecdotic issue, sort of a by-product caused by the fact that it is a living language. To my knowledge, you were the first person in this discussion that mentioned that Esperanto has no native speakers as an important argument against it. You lost that argument. And it is not so important, just another evidence that it is alive.
Is Robert your real name, or is it a made up one? because it gave me the impression, now apparently false, that you were a native English speaker. “I wrongly interpreted “in ANY country of the world” as “in WHATEVER country of the world.” But even going your way, those who speak English have a much better chance to succeed than those who don’t.
I have not tried to compare English to Esperanto, I just pointed out what was wrong with the comparisons being made by others regarding how much better Esperanto was than English. And the questions are not redundant, in any case they are rhetorical. That is why I understand perfectly well why they are so difficult for you to answer honestly. And you can believe me when I tell you that, in the middle of the glorious Roman Empire, I would have never advised anybody to learn English. It was not useful to get ahead. Like it was not too useful in Europe in the middle of the French cultural rule nor in the Soviet bloc in the middle of the glorious Soviet era. But nowadays, even the Frenchmen and the Russians are learning English, go figure.
I agree that “it’s time we separate language from politics”, English is not only spoken in the USA and the UK. I am not going to deny that it will make it easier for them to sell their products, but that is something that the others already want, their products. In the other hand, it will make it a lot more easier to sell them (to those you do not want them to get a greater advantage because more people will speak their language) their products (those of the people learning English). But that is the way things are and people do not really want to learn English to give the native speakers an advantage but to increase their opportunities and improve their own situation. It is your political blindness what make you not see the benefits that English as a common language will bring to those who learn it. You just want to screw the US and the UK.
Esperanto will do that, I mean screw the US and the UK, but so it will everybody else. And yes, everybody is looking for an edge (including Esperantists), that is why the want to learn English (and that is why Esperantists are so vehemently trying to sell the idea that Esperanto is better). That is human nature. But it is undeniable that one language will make things better for all countries in the EU, we agree on that. We only disagree on which language. You propose Esperanto which might be easier to learn but does not offer any benefit in the short or medium term, and that almost EVERYBODY will have to learn from scratch, and that everything will have to be translated into it. Or, English, which is the one I believe has a better change of succeeding, although not necessarily proposing it personally. A language that is spoken by the larger amount of people as a second language, in Europe. Into which most of the things are already translated.
And I am sorry but I do not have too much time so I will have to cut this short, one last thing, though. “Esperanto native speakers are almost an anecdotic issue, sort of a by-product caused by the fact that it is a living language” Anecdotic indeed, but not a by-product of Esperanto being a living language but a deliberate attempt by some nutty parents to give Esperanto a classification it does not deserve. Those kids did not just happen to learn Esperanto it was with premeditation and aforethought that their parents forced them to learn it. I will accept the motives of those who tried to create an Esperanto state, unsuccessful as they were. They have several good and selfish reasons to want Esperanto to be the language of their newly formed state, regardless of whether other people wanted to learn it. But unfortunately, they did not succeed and Esperanto did not become a national language, one which kids born there will have to learn regardless their parents wishes, nor did it become a changing living language used in the daily life of people who did not have any other choice.
My reply here:
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/english-official-language-eu/#comment-267963
Yes, we need a EU-wide lingua franca and English is the language of technology, science, art and so much more now.
Should English be the only official language of the EU?
L’anglais devrait-il être la seule langue officielle de l’Union Européenne (U.E.)?
Ou encore: devrait-on instaurer la dictature officielle du tout-anglais?
95% des Européens sont contre la dictature y compris linguistique.
Le tout-anglais officiel c’est immédiatement l’éclatement de l’U.E.
La résistance contre la dictature du tout-anglais s’organiserait aussitôt.
Les politiciens qui auraient voté une telle mesure ne seraient plus réélus et ne pourraient plus vivre dans leur pays d’origine.
Le français et l’allemand sont plus parlés que l’anglais dans l’Union Européenne.
L’espéranto, langue internationale équitable et facile, pour améliorer la démocratie linguistique, devrait être ajouté comme langue officielle de l’Union Européenne AVEC les 25 autres.
Chu la angla devus esti la unika oficiala lingvo de la U.E. ?Chu oni devus do novstarigi la oficialan diktaturon de la tuta-angla? 95% de la Europanoj estas kontrau la diktaturo de la unika lingvo.
La rezisto kontrau la diktaturo de la tuta-angla tuj organizighus. La oficiala tuta-angla logike entenus la finon de la E.U. La politikistoj kiuj vochdonus tiun-chi leghon estus neniam plu elektitaj kaj neniam plu vivus en sia lando.
La franca kaj la germana estas pli parolatj ol la angla en la Europa Unio. Ankorau pli se la Anglio elirus de la E.U. Esperanto, justa kaj facila internacia lingvo, por plibonigi la lingvan demokration , devus esti aldonita kiel PLIA oficiala lingvo KUN la 25 aliaj lingvoj.
No.
On the other hand — why not return to Latin as common language for Europe?
Asked that many times. ..why always ask same questions
A bit like russian in USSR…
Yes…..because I know it.
.
The people of Europe do not have a choice in the matter, it’s an integral part of the federalist nightmare to create a US of E.
When you have one Currency, one flag & one anthem the logical next step is one language, whether the peoples of Europe want it or not.
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialNOtoEU/photos/pb.891615804230125.-2207520000.1439190809./897793173612388/?type=3&theater
No latin, no french, no other ballshit, english is the most widely common language on globe! Is spoken in India, im China, im the arab world, so make it compulsory in E.U. and don’t ask it once more, because some European arrogant and selfish nations would never agree even in this matter..
No better Esperanto in that case.
Nope Nope Nope Nope
It makes sense as it is the most widely spoken language in the world. Most people know it, so it just seems more practical.
NO!
Official Language of the EU ..yes….but not the official language of the individual Cultural Regions of the EU.
Never !
Yes. It is already actually. Even if you disagree. You even argue against it — in English! :)
Yes, of course. It is already de facto the vehicular language.
For countries like Greece there is no choice. We must learn at least one foreign language to communicate with the rest European people
No, but it should be made official for the EU institutions, I am sick of documents in 10 different languages and for thousands of translators to be paid for bullsh*t.
Why..?? GB want to get out of EU…
YES.
Yes of course
No.
English is already the de facto language of Science, not only in EU, but in the whole world. The Internet is a huge driving force for English learners around the world and soon it will become the something like “common tongue” across Europe whether we like it or not.
No
Declaring an Official Language in the EU is Unnecessary — and Un-European.
Is this proposal in accordance with the Treaty on European Union? See the article 4.2 TUE:
“The Union shall respect the equality of Member States before the Treaties as well as their national identities, inherent in their fundamental structures, political and constitutional, inclusive of regional and local self-government. It shall respect their essential State functions, including ensuring the territorial integrity of the State, maintaining law and order and safeguarding national security. In particular, national security remains the sole responsibility of each Member State.” More info -> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012M/TXT
National security *should* remain the sole responsibility of each Member State, but I think most people would agree that the security agencies have to tow the CIA line. The CIA and MI6 will both be pushing English. Tony Blair dumbed down language learning en England’s schools, and Baroness Catherine Ashton was by his side in pushing the New Strategy for Languages in England through the Lords, in the knowledge that it would lead to a collapse of language learning. Since the end of the Cold War Esperanto was dumbed down by mysterious people within the Esperanto organisations. When I researched this ten years ago the President of Esperanto Association of Britain led a public attack on me at the following AGM. He had been posing as a friend and colleague for many years, but I had failed to notice the obvious; he was working for the British Council. The whole history of the Esperanto movement is rich in such attacks from within. First they came from the French speakers, then from the English speakers. The spread of English was manufactured. The NSA and the British Council even held meetings around 1960 to plan for the hegemony of English. If people only understood that, and experienced Esperanto in practice, they would overwhelmingly support Esperanto.
In 1960 black people were still riding in the back of the bus, today we have a black President. There was still apartheid in South Africa, then came Mandela. People change, countries change, more often for the better.
Esperanto was created over 150 years ago, it may have been a good idea then. It may even be a good idea today, but please stop using 60, 40, 20 years old reasons to justify your position.
Yes
I am Italian, I have been studying English for all my life and now I am teaching it because I love it … But I would never even dream of imposing it to other people… Languages should be study only if driven by passion … Not for political issues … I don’t give a f**k that it’s spoken all over the world… Every country has its own identity and that must be respected! This is the wrong side of globalisation …
Those are two very different questions. My answers are a categorical yes to the first, and “dream on!” to the second.
‘Course!
No. Maybe a second language.
Everyone who wants to be understood use english at the moment all over the world. How much time must take till any other language will be spoken by any other nation ?
In the case of national languages, a very long time. In the case of Esperanto it could be quite quick. If China were to decide to teach Esperanto in all its schools, then in two or three years there would be a substantial number of Esperanto speaking school leavers in China, and all those who trade with China would have to take note, because learning Esperanto is a lot easier than learning Chinese of English. Any language teacher would be able to teach himself Esperanto in a matter of weeks, so a whole education system could be introducing Esperanto within a year. The rest of the population would learn Esperanto very quickly if they needed it.
I think it is sensible if everyone would at least learn English to the intermediate level as it is the easiest to learn and comprehend language in Europe. But along with english, French and German and Spanish must be taught to the same level to everyone.
yes it is understood and spoken by many
Of course not! It’s the same as asking should we impose only one lifestyle and culture in Europe. The only people who like this idea are the ones too lazy to learn any other language. This will be a shame for us. On the contrary the influence of English should be lowered!
The only official language of Europe?No.Greek should be as all the languages have within Greek words and Greek routes.
English is the mother tounge of no more than 65 M people… German is spoken by not less than 100M people.. and understood by many more.. so..
No!
Yes to first NO way to second!
Definitely yes! The EU needs one common official language. It is not that important which one it would be, yet English seems to be most suitable for the purpose, as a huge majority of the European population speaks it in some form. German and French may have more native speakers, but the number of speakers in general (both native and non-native) is considerably lower than the number of people speaking English. Also globally looked, English is the most practical option among the European languages, followed by Spanish and French.
I like languages in general and do believe that each one has its advantages and beauty yet thinking rationally – English is the most practical choice for a single official language of the EU and a single official language is something that Europe does need.
why not….no problem
~ ABSOLUTELY Y-E-S !!!
EU has 23 official languages so far and yet there isn’t a problem of misinformation by using those…So no
Of course it should, it should be the official common language.
Then, every region should preserve and promote their language, but a common one is necessary, and English is the international language
Blagovest Blagoev
Language = a peoples identity. Lose your language = lose your identity.
You are all ‘Europeans’ now, whether you want to be or not.
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialNOtoEU/photos/pb.891615804230125.-2207520000.1439200165./901464649911907/?type=1&theater
When England doesn’t take part of euro area and probably, after the referendum, will leave EU, it’s no sense to use English language. In any case official language used on documents and institutions should be one for economic reasons! French?
French…??? how about Chinese to make things even more complicated… English is an international language because it is practical and has really simple grammar…
I think this question is going to be obsolete soon anyway. Who doesn’t speak english? It should be every governments obligation that their people have a good fundamental grasp of the english language, no matter where you live, as it just simply is the language the world communicates with. It has nothing to do with cultural identity, its simply about beeing able to communicate with the rest of the world.
YES!
Absolutely, knowing English is a pre-requirement for living nowadays..
But it’s not enough: everyone from Lisbon to Tartu should know a second language… Baltic people already do that and they’re moving already towards the future …
Of what kind of English are you speaking about! The 200 hundred words Globish most of the people speak to communicate? Of course everybody should be able to communicate in a vehicular language, or probably more than one…if you go to France or to Italy on holidays why shouldn’t you make any effort to learn basic French or Italian to communicate? About Eu and official documents in more languages I think that every citizen has the right to read and understand any document which could concerns her/his life in her/his mother tongue. The cost of translation is not useless it is the cost of being different in an Union.
definately NO…. each nation’s language is it’s identity and we must respect it !!!
I do not agree with this. It is always proposed that the culture of a country and its language are the same. Language is a tool to communicate an idea or a thing. It is not the idea, or the thing itself. I have not learned Gaelic, or Pictish as a Scotish person, but enjoy bagpipe music, Scottish history and Scottish dancing, as do the Cantoneese speaking people who come as tourists. No one knows what Ancient Egyption sounded like. Reading the ancient Egyptian writing, is used as a mechanism to understand their traditions, beliefs and culture. The funny looking symbols are not themselves this, they are just a tool to communicate ideas, as a fridge is a mechanism to keep things cold. I learned yesterday that Thai traditional dancing is called Wallam Sing. Knowing these Thai words has no connection with the tradition, appreciation, history or culture of the practise. It’s just words!
It’s difficult to create a feeling of unity “we the xxxxx” when people cannot communicate properly.
It is time to invent a common language , culturally neutral unlike English that carries the merchant consumer values of the Empire.
It will not replace the existing languages since it will just be an artificially created language used for administration, trade and tourism but without real cultural attraction potential unlike the existing languages needed to communicate more than the basic administrative, business and shopping necessities…
Pointless discussion. It is happening anyway, in reality if not on paper. A Finn is unlikely to talk to a Portuguese in anything but English.
German is more useful nowadays. Only one language is not enough
As a non-EU Norwegian I don’t have much to say here, but we have to learn English, our language is too small.
On the other side, since so few English speaking people can other languages, they miss the possibility of having a ”backstage language”.
Yes! No comments … Yes!
No, it shouldn’t, because EU law is binding on all the EU’s citizens and it is a fundamental democratic principle that people cannot be bound by laws which they cannot understand, therefore the laws must be available in the official languages of the Member States (not necessarily those of their regions, incidentally – it depends on what each Member State has demanded in its Treaty of Accession). Also any citizen has a right to put questions and make representations to any EU institution, and get a response, in his or her own language. Most people in Europe do not speak or write enough English for either of these purposes. To coerce everyone in Europe into learning one language, whatever it was, would be materially impossible (where would you get enough teachers and funds to teach a language to hundreds of millions of people?) and a flagrant assault on the EU’s many national cultures. That is why it isn’t and shouldn’t be done, and why the EU has so many official languages. Democracy and representation do have a cost, but this one is worth paying.
YES!
Yes, It should be the official language used in papers . This doesn’t mean that people will replace their own language with English but it would simplify all processes. In my opinion.
English, German, French and maybe Italian and Spanish should be the languages used in all institutions.
English is already the lingua franca and as such is one of the two foreign languages learnt in school, making it mandatory is pointless.
I don`t know about the rest but for me language doesn`t have a connection to the native speakers themselves.Just because I speak english it doesn`t mean that I view myself as an English, British, American or Canadian.
I`m a Germanophile European citizen of Romanian ethnicity and that will not change just because I can use English far better than German.
NÃO!!!
ERA MESMO A ÚNICA INICIATIVA QUE AINDA FALTAVA PARA ACABAR DE DESTRUIR A EUROPA.
Portuguese is spoken by close to 250 million people. It is not irrelevant. It is the fourth world language.
Enough of being treated like second rated citizens or Untermench.
Thessecond language yes
Of course, That is globally recognized language and would contribute much if institutions prepare their documents in English to be read by all . Very dumb to call the German / French institution, and you murmur because they do not know English. Sorry, I cant talk German, French, Spanish
No at all. I want th GG out form the Europe. Esperanto must be the first over the world. And plz don’t repeat the questions.
What sort of a question is that?
English ALREADY IS, and has been for a while, not only a European but a world-wide lingua franca. People learn it starting in the first years of primary school and sometimes even earlier. Sure, Latin and Esperanto sound amazing, something truly European but at the same time also not favoring any of the member states – Latin a bit more so for historical reasons although it is rather hard. But let’s be honest, even if introduced their usage would be limited to the EU, whereas English has a world-wide potential which is only growing.
German should be
Non, each country should stay sovereign.
Imagine a world where ALL the children (not only “students”, who, in french language are youg people at least 18 years old or more) could learn, from their 2 or3 years, a language easy, neutral, and PROPEDEUTIC?
Exactly the opposite of english. English is NOT easy, nor neutral nor propedeutic. It became dominant because of historical circumstances, exactly as a lot of other occurences (ex: decades of maoist power in China, or colonialism in Africa, etc.)
YES, english is now the dominant language, and I DO use it, as I have been taught it. BUT I hate its domination, as I should hate the different situation if it were French or German, or… chinese mandarin!
We have to defend and protect multilinguism, and promote the diversity.
We have to compliment the students who study OTHER languages than englis.
Yes
This language is equitable, effective and with increasing number of supporters
https://www.facebook.com/duolingo/photos/a.421213931256115.95959.141935472517297/1065920876785414/?type=1
Dominique is right!
Come on! Who in his right mind and that already speak English will want to learn Esperanto, except out of curiosity to find out if it is true that they will be able to find people who speak the language in other countries. I mean, I know that there are a few speakers spread out throughout the World but being so few it will be easier and more productive to look for English speaking persons. It is a fact that they are much more numerous than the Esperanto speakers.
Of course not! One of the best things Europe has is it’s cultures. Languages are the expression of those cultures. Why should English be the only official language? Is the English culture better than the rest of the cultures in the Union? In my opinion, every languaje spoken on the EU should be official, because all cultures should have the same rights! When I say all, I mean all, even those minority languajes such as Catalá, Galego or Basque (the oldest languaje in Europe that is still used). I’ve used the Spanish examples because those are the only ones I know, which is a shame really. If all the languajes were official, people would at least know about them, and about the cultures they represent. If the EU doesn’t support all the languajes in the Union, then the UE doesn’t support the cultures of Europe. If that is the case, the UE would has lost it’s credibility and it’s purpouse.
To Alejandro Carlos:
A.J.: “Who in his right mind and that already speak English will want to learn Esperanto…”
Maybe you can find an answer at https://tatoeba.org
That does not means they are in their right mind (nor does it means they are not) nor does it means that just because they are looking for the translation of a particular phrase or sentence they are trying to learn the language. Besides I acknowledged there were a few. But it did call my attention that there were almost doble requests of English translations. Should I (or you) surmise something from that fact?
The majority of European people can speak English, it is us who fail to integrate with Europe
No they don’t. Most people in Europe don’t speak English, unless being able to count to ten and say “one beer please” qualifies as “speaking English”.
Europe is more than English Il y’a plus que l’Anglais en Europe Ik spreek niet goed Nederlands voor conversatie…(en ook Duits).
Nee dank U. Nein, Danke. Non, merci. No, por favor. Нет, спасибо. Não obrigado. Etc.
no never – only German!
oh, yes, please…
it is not that we kind of like more britain or usa than germany, it is just that english somehow happened to spread all over the world… and however much anybody will push, never ever will german replace english in that role, even only within eu… and that is not because we kind of dislike germany… for we do not…
so, don’t waste our time…
Yes, because English is an international laguage of the commerce and navigation.
YES!! English obligatory for EU as common oficial language
Complicate to oblige all the countries to Adolph it! Too manu public work to reeducate! Huge costs!
Isn’t it more or less already ? Anyway, yes, I do agree.
.
Your EU is now pushing propaganda comic’s in English at children like some decrepit version of the USSR & you are paying for it.
‘It’s actually quite sad & perthetic. Europe used to lead the world. It’s now led by clowns.
It’s part tragedy, part farce.’
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192144/Move-Dennis-Menace-Brussels-produced-series-sinister-propaganda-cartoons-promoting-EU.html#ixzz3iPVuZIHU
And the spanish
If EU had to choose an official language, than yes for sure English. However it should not replace a nations own language.
English has already been the second language for more than 30 years in most European countries.
First foreign language learnt in schools.
No foreign language or law will ever replace the mother tongue.
The national poet of my country, who spoke 5 foreign languages and studied in Germany and France, said : WITH EACH FOREIGN LANGUAGE YOU LEARN, A NEW UNIVERSE OPENS FOR YOU.
Esperanto or latin.
Yes , but German is the most important and spoken language in Europe , so I think we gotta study German , and not just English !!!
yes
Yes , but German is the most important and spoken language in Europe , so I think we gotta study German , and not just English !!
German and English should be studied both as common Languages in Europe…
3 hours a week of English and 3/4 of German in every school of Europe !
No
English should be learnt and spoken … The Maltese would write it thus … bat ritten aes it fonetikali herd in the letter swands of the mather tang … Thus English is pronounced as the English do but each European would retain the letter script of their mother language … In Italian English … Ol europiaens wud lissen to inglisc films dubd’d in itaelian script withawt the nid tu rait it aes the Oksferd scolars wud rait it. The “th” would have to be introduced as well as the “ae” as in h”ae”t for hat. An IT programme would convert the Maltese English letters to say the Italian English letters sounds and to all European letters sounds.
Greek is the language.. The rest is a copy!!!
Bulgarians made the alphabet!!!
Yes.
I thought English was the official Business language for Euro users; I am in Norway and 99% speak English better than I! 😟😂
Yes
At léast English..
Yes. English is easy and the modern Latin.
Should English be the ONLY OFFICIAL language of the EU?
L’anglais devrait-il être la SEULE langue OFFICIELLE de l’Union Européenne (U.E.)?
Devrait-on donc instaurer la dictature officielle du tout-anglais? Les Européens ne seront pas les Indiens d’Amérique du tout anglais de Wall-Street. 64% des Européens non anglophones de naissance ne parlent pas du tout anglais, 12% très mal, donc 76% au moins ne le comprennent pas. Une grande majorité est contre la dictature de la langue unique.
Le tout-anglais officiel implique logiquement la fin de l’U.E. La résistance contre la dictature du tout-anglais s’organiserait aussitôt. Les politiciens qui auraient voté une telle loi ne seraient plus jamais élus et ne pourraient plus vivre dans leur pays d’origine.
Le français et l’allemand sont plus parlés que l’anglais dans l’Union Européenne. Encore plus si l’Angleterre sort de l’Union Européenne. L’espéranto, langue internationale équitable et facile, pour améliorer la démocratie linguistique, devrait être ajouté comme langue officielle de l’Union Européenne avec les 25 autres.
Chu la angla devus esti la UNIKA OFICIALA lingvo de la U.E.?
Cxu oni devus do novstarigi la oficialan diktaturon de la tuta-angla? La Europeanoj ne estos la amerikanaj Indianoj de la tuta angla de Wall-Street. 64% de la Europanoj tute ne parolas la anglan kaj 12% parolas ghin tre iomete. Do granda plimulto de Europanoj estas kontrau la diktaturo de la unika lingvo.
La rezisto kontrau la diktaturo de la tuta-angla tuj organizighus. La oficiala tuta-angla logike entenus la finon de la E.U. La politikistoj kiuj vochdonus tiun-chi legxon estus neniam plu elektitaj kaj neniam plu vivus en sia lando.
La franca kaj la germana estas pli parolataj ol la angla en la Europa Unio. Ankorau pli se la Anglio elirus de la E.U. Esperanto, justa kaj facila internacia lingvo, por plibonigi la lingvan demokration , devus esti aldonita kiel PLIA oficiala lingvo KUN la 25 aliaj lingvoj.
NE ! Mi volas paroli en ESPERANTO !
Al la demando “Kiu estas la oficiala lingvo de Sanofi-Aventis ?“, la PGD de tiu farmacia grupo, Jean-François Dehecq, respondis en la magazino “L’Expansion“* : “Tio certe ne estas la angla. Multnacia entrepreno estas entrepreno en kiu ĉiu povas paroli sian lingvon. Kion oni bezonas en kunveno, tio estas la cerbo de la homoj. Se vi devigas ilin paroli angle, la Angloj-Usonanoj alvenas kun 100% el siaj kapabloj. La homoj kiuj parolas bone kun 50%, kaj la plimulto kun 10%. Kiam oni volas ĉiuj esti Angloj-Usonanoj, oni ne miru que venkas la Angloj-Usonanoj.“
*L’Expansion (La Ekspansio). 28-an de oktobro 2004.
À la question “Quelle est la langue officielle de Sanofi-Aventis ?” posée par Laurent Barbotin pour le magazine économique “L’Expansion” (28/10/2004), le PDG de la société pharmaceutique Sanofi-Aventis, Jean-François Dehecq, avait répondu : “Ce n’est sûrement pas l’anglais. Une multinationale est une entreprise dans laquelle chacun peut parler sa langue. Dans une réunion, c’est du cerveau des gens dont on a besoin. Si vous les obligez à parler anglais, les Anglo-Saxons arrivent avec 100% de leurs capacités, les gens qui parlent très bien, avec 50%, et la majorité, avec 10%. A vouloir tous être anglo-saxons, il ne faut pas s’étonner que ce soient les anglo-saxons qui gagnent.“
Chacun de nous peut dire ce qu’il pense, ou ce qu’il souhaite ?, mais des enquêtes fiables sur les opinions publiques existent et méritent d’être prises en compte.
Ainsi, le rapport http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_fr.pdf nous apprendra que :
– “La majorité des Européens (81%) estiment que toutes les langues parlées dans l’UE devraient être traitées de manière égale. Même si environ sept répondants sur dix (69%) pensent que les Européens devraient pouvoir parler une langue commune, ils n’estiment pas pour autant qu’une langue devrait avoir la priorité sur les autres.”
– Plus des trois quarts (77%) des répondants pensent que l’amélioration des capacités linguistiques devrait constituer une priorité politique.
Ces considérations amènent donc logiquement à penser qu’une politique publique devrait promouvoir l’apprentissage d’une langue véhiculaire neutre et dont l’apprentissage serait facile, rapide et peu onéreux : ce sont justement là les caractéristiques d’une langue internationale telle que l’espéranto.
Each of us can say what he thinks, what he hopes?, but reliable surveys about public opinions exist and must be taken into account.
Thus, the report http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_fr.pdf outlines that:
– “The majority of Europeans (81%) agree that all languages spoken within the EU should be treated equally. Even if around seven out of ten (69%) think that Europeans should be able to speak a common language this view does not extend to believing that any one language should have priority over others”
– “More than three-quarters (77%) of respondents think that improving language skills should be a policy priority.”
Therefore such considerations lead logically to think that public policy should promote the learning of a neutral common language whose learning should be easy, fast and inexpensive: these are exactly the properties of an international language such as Esperanto.
Ĉiu el ni povas diri kion li opinias , kion li deziras ?, sed fidindaj enketoj pri publika pensmaniero ekzistas kaj indas esti konsideritaj.
Tiel, la raporto http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_386_fr.pdf skizas ke:
– ” La plimulto de Eŭropanoj ( 81 % ) konsentas, ke ĉiuj lingvoj parolataj ene de la EU devus esti traktitaj egale . Plie, ĉirkaŭ sep el dek ( 69 % ) opinias ke eŭropanoj devus scipovi paroli komunan lingvon ,sed sen ke iu lingvo havu prioritaton super la aliaj ”
– ” Pli ol tri kvaronoj (77 % ) de respondantoj opinias ke plibonigo de lingvokapabloj estu politika prioritato . ”
Do, tiaj konsideroj logike kondukas nin pensi ke la publika politiko antaŭenigu la lernadon de neŭtrala komuna lingvo, kies lernado devus esti facile, rapide kaj malmultekosta : tio precize estas la ecoj de internacia lingvo kiel Esperanto.
No.
The laws of European Union want (treaty of Lisbon, article 1a) :
“The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.”.
No equality nor democracy would be possible if a language from a nation is imposed to the majority of citizens. English is difficult, and most of the european people cannot understand it, nor fluently speak it. Imposing English to European Union involves imposing tyranny and oligarchy during at least a century (but, perhaps, we already are in a such situation ???).
In my opinion, only esperanto can be common language of European Union, and preserve equality. There is no alternative !
“Imposing English to European Union involves imposing tyranny and oligarchy”. Is it not the same applicable to Esperanto as well? “most of the european people cannot understand it, nor fluently speak it”
“what’s good for the goose is good for the gander” or is it not? Do you not yell “inequality” at every turn?
@ Alejandro Carlos
“Despite your English sounding name it seems your understanding of the language is as limited as that of many others here”.
“Is Robert your real name, or is it a made up one? because it gave me the impression, now apparently false, that you were a native English speaker.”
Are you making a point or just spicing it up with a little of sarcasm? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt: you’re just curious. Anyway, if my name is misleading to you that’s your problem. What would be less misleading, a name based on the place of birth or on the market place? I refuse to change it. “My name is Kunta, Kunta Kinte… not Toby!”.
“And the questions are not redundant, in any case they are rhetorical”.
Outside the virus-like pathology of dominant languages (which is a modern term for imperial languages) your three demanding questions about Esperanto have little sense and seem redundant, i.e., superfluous or unnecessary if you will, besides being rhetorical. In order to cure a viral disease you have to come up with something really effective. Natural salt water won’t work. Neither will natural (=national) languages, however powerful they might be, cure the vicious thirst for “language” domination. In fact, the more powerful/dominant, the more pernicious they are. If people, in order to survive or improve their lives, feel/are impelled to use one and the same language, a language that belongs by luck of birth to other people, a language used to delimit countries, nationalities, privileges and sovereign or colonial territories, then no doubt there’s something very wrong in this picture. We may call it a natural process. Cancer and virus infection are also natural processes, but that does not prevent us from trying to improve people’s health.
“I have not tried to compare English to Esperanto, I just pointed out what was wrong with the comparisons being made by others regarding how much better Esperanto was than English.”
I don’t think Esperanto is better. It’s just a language that enables communication in a way that is not possible to achieve with a national language. A German and a French can’t communicate unless one of them speaks the other’s language. Today they’d probably end up speaking English, and the quality of the communication will highly depend on how much effort, time and money they spent learning it. In that sense, Esperanto is more economical and requires less effort, time and money. And the main advantage is that both parts would approach the communication based on individual efforts, not on the luck of birth privilege. And no, Esperanto native speakers won’t have any advantage over non-natives, not because they are very few, but because reality has already shown otherwise.
Esperanto would be like replacing aristocracy with democracy: using English (or any national language) as an international language gives some people enormous privileges by luck of birth; with Esperanto all people have an equal chance.
“You just want to screw the US and the UK”
No, I don’t. But a lot of people want that the US and the UK stop screwing up others. English in the EU? Fine, as long as the UK returns the extra money they gain each year through English teaching (a few thousand million Euros). Same goes for whatever language is chosen. No one wants to pay the bill? Keep things as they are, and consider the 25.000 million Euros per year as the investment for multilingual policy. Want to save money? Try Esperanto; each country pays its own bill. It’s the most economical solution in the mid/long-term, and the most just for all. It’s not realistic? Introduce Esperanto as optional language in all EU schools and universities, let’s see what happens. My guess is they won’t move a finger to change anything, in the hope that matters will slowly continue to drift their way, i.e., the English-only-way. The fact that some people oppose to the adoption of an English-only Europe is based more in practical, economical and egalitarian considerations than on political resentment. To point out why things are the way they are, our historical mistakes, is not political resentment, it is acknowledging our past mistakes in order to avoid repeating them.
“But nowadays, even the Frenchmen and the Russians are learning English, go figure.”
Here we go again. You may skip this part, I won’t. It’s not so difficult to figure out why things are like they are regarding English in the world, just pay attention to what US foreign policy is all about:
“[…] it is in the economic and political interests of the United States to ensure that if the world is moving toward a common language, it be English; that if the world is moving toward common telecommunications, safety, and quality standards, they be American; that if the world is becoming linked by television, radio, and music, the programming be American; and that if common values are being developed, they be values with which Americans are comfortable.”
– David Rothkop, Foreign Policy, June 22, 1997 –
Those words don’t Smell Like Teen Spirit, they smell (stink?) more like The Empire Strikes Back. Gosh!, you can almost hear John Williams theme in the background of that speech. In fact you can hear it in almost every national speech carrying the message “is the best for -our people/-our nation”, regardless the nationality of the speech.
But the most scary words come from the speech of Churchill at Harvard University, 1943: “the power to control language offers far better prizes than taking away people’s provinces or lands or grinding them down in exploitation. The empires of the future are the empires of the mind.” The next year, 1944, Churchill sent a letter to US President Roosevelt, making evident he was serious: “my conviction is that Basic English will then prove to be a great boon to mankind in the future and a powerful support to the influence of the Anglo-Saxon peoples in world affairs.”
Can you hear that? Is the Imperial-Darth-Vader March again in the background. It would be funny if it was a joke. But hey, people shouldn’t feel guilty for having greedy leaders, it happens in the best of families, I mean countries. I guess it’s easier to blame the dominance of English on people’s own greediness and ambition, not in the lies they were brought into with an empty stomach while there were no other options. Yeah, the monopolistic prevalence of English is not intended by the mighty ones, it’s the little people who are the ones to blame, who else! What a tasteless, pathetic joke!
Nowadays imperialism is out of fashion but nevertheless one of its side effects is still around as a global imperial language. You may introduce fancy names such as “soft power” or “international”. They sound good and make you feel better. Or you may explain it away by saying that people learn English because there is an economic benefit to it, which is an oversimplification of the whole situation.
“[…] they did not succeed and Esperanto did not become a national language”.
You either don’t get it or don’t want to. Esperanto is not intended to be a national language. It is an inter-national language, in the true sense of that word: a language to be used among nations, allowing communication on an equal footing. Maybe that’s why is so difficult to accomplish it, apparently no government is interested in the “equal footing” part, they always want “the best for their citizens”.
“But that is the way things are and people do not really want to learn English to give the native speakers an advantage […]”.
That’s exactly what English nations already have, a guaranteed advantage in all fields of human endeavor, under a promise of a better life that has no guarantees. This is not a win-win solution. It’s a short-term win-lose situation and a long-term lose-lose situation. Also, “the way things are” more often than not, rarely reflects the way things should be, but the conformism to the ideology and status quo of the dominant social order, without any consideration to justice or ethics. That is also, unfortunately, human nature.
About Esperanto native speakers: “Those kids did not just happen to learn Esperanto it was with premeditation and aforethought that their parents forced them to learn it.”
If a German father and a Russian mother living in France decide to teach their kids German, Russian or both at home, I wouldn’t call it enforcement but enrichment. On the other hand, making English mandatory in every school of the world would seem more like a kind of enforcement than a freedom of choice.
“I will accept the motives of those who tried to create an Esperanto state, unsuccessful as they were.”
Of course you will, because it seems you can’t conceive a human language outside the limited boundaries of nations, economic predation and domination of the strongest. Practicality and pragmatics above all and submissive acceptance of the status quo; that is the way things are and apparently the way they should remain according to you. Change is bad. Resistance is futile.
The Esperanto state didn’t succeed and maybe it’s better that way. Esperanto is not intended to be the national language of any place.
Finally, a quote that sums it up quite nicely:
“If might is right, then English is the best language for the world right now, and if change is bad, then English is the best language for all time to come. Esperanto is not so much specifically about proposing a grammar and a vocabulary, but more about a hope for justice and for possibility of change, also in international relations.”
– J. S. Larsen –
It definitely show you are as passionate and imperialistic in your opinion of using Esperanto as a world language as you claim the Brit and American are regarding the English language. All the rest of your disertation is just hogwash and anti-American/British political activism.
I am only going to anwer to one of your responses. “If a German father and a Russian mother living in France decide to teach their kids German, Russian or both at home” they would be forcing their kids to learn one or more languages that are not going to be very useful to them unless they are considering going back to their original countries, but, and it is a very big but, their motivation would be based not in political activism but on the desire to help their children understand their cultural heritage from the vantage point given by a common language with the culture. But what culture were the parents of those Esperanto native speakers trying to help them understand. There was not, nor is, an Esperanto culture but there is a very passionate, I would say fanatical, activism for the acceptance of Esperanto as a unique language for the communication between people. Only fanatical people will consider the majority very stupid for not seeing that what the minority is trying to impose (unselfishly?) is for the benefit of the majority. I, on the other hand, am of the belief that if after more than 100 years of ferocious pro-Esperanto activism the majority of the people of the World have not gone that way then the activists should accept the fact that the people of the World really do not care for what they are advocating.
“My name is Kunta, Kunta Kinte… not Toby!”. But you called yourself Robert, a very typical english name. And just by the way you phrased your response it make it seems you are just using it to hide you hidden agenda. But do not worry, I will not hold it against you.
“It definitely show you are as passionate and imperialistic in your opinion of using Esperanto as a world language as you claim the Brit and American are regarding the English language.”
You can rest assured I don’t have wet dreams about any empire, regardless its point of origin. The mere look at the casualties list gives me the creeps.
“All the rest of your disertation is just hogwash and anti-American/British political activism.”
I guess that’s what people are called nowadays when they point out uncomfortable historical facts whose consequences still pervades the present.
“But what culture were the parents of those Esperanto native speakers trying to help them understand.”
The culture of respect; the culture of knowing and actually experiencing and feeling that it is possible to overcome language differences without imposition or submission in a rather easy way; the idea that maybe one day mankind could look back at history and without a feeling of unease proudly say “we actually did it; we are many, we are different, but we are one”. That’s the culture and the spirit those parents want to give their children when they teach them Esperanto.
“if after more than 100 years of ferocious pro-Esperanto activism the majority of the people of the World have not gone that way then the activists should accept the fact that the people of the World really do not care for what they are advocating.”
As long as there are two or more people communicating in Esperanto there is hope. The majority have not gone that way because they never have a chance to even know about the existence of Esperanto. Right now there are over 90.000 persons learning it on Duolingo. A few days ago there were about 80.000. Based only on those particular numbers, I would say that at least some of the people of the world do care about Esperanto. There is definitely hope. Here’s the link:
http://www.duolingo.com/course/eo/en/Learn-Esperanto-Online
And yes, my real name is Robert. And my point is that I think it is less important what name people may have, than what they are, what they feel, think and do. Maybe I did choose a bad example quoting that particular line from the TV-series “Roots”. My intention was to point out that I’m not willing to change my name in order to make less shocking my limited skills of English. It seems that I failed miserably to express myself clearly on this particular point.
English is my third language in order of comprehension, after more than ten years of study. But now, after one year of intermittent learning, my fourth language is quickly moving to the third position. Needless to say that language is Esperanto. I would never imagined there was such a fast language to learn. Based on my limited experience about language learning I would say that the best way to learn a language is to study it in the country where it is spoken. Esperanto does not have this limitation. You can learn it wherever you are and if you want to go deeper you have lots of countries to choose from all over the world, where Esperanto speaking families are willing to host you in their homes free of charge. If you are the kind of person who likes travelling and knowing different cultures then Esperanto will give you an inside look you won’t get going the conventional tourist way.
“I guess that’s what people are called nowadays when they point out uncomfortable historical facts whose consequences still pervades the present.” It is useless to cling to past historical events to justify present day positions and hate. The fact that your grandparent was a Nazi or that your great-grandfather was an slave owner or that you are a citizen of a country that in the past did bad things does not justify people hating you and blaming you for what your ancestors or your country did. They did what they did because it was what was done on those times. There are no concentration camps in Germany nor slaves in the U.S. nowadays, but there are people still killing and maiming others claiming fault for what was done decades ago. Get over it. However, we are talking about languages not politics and the people of those countries that you seem to hate so much are not not responsible for the things you claim their government did and do. And they are the ones who mold the language. So let´s stick to languages and continue to argue the pros and cons of the languages themselves and if they are suited or not to become the World Language and what advantages will the people of the World get from their adoption as such. And names might not really be important in determining what you are or want to become unless you use them to hide your true identity and to confuse others regarding your real aims and intentions. Them they become very important as the basis of the deception. That said let me share with you something that was said by someone who epitomize, according to many who think like you do, that imperialism you are talking about.
“The Future Belongs to Those Who Believe in the Beauty of their Dreams.” Eleanor Roosevelt.
And from an opposing point of view.
“It Always Seems Imposible Until it is Done.” Nelson Mandela.
Go figure. Two people so different and in opposite sides of the political spectrum but that still share the same aspirations for Mankind. That is so that you do not give up your lofty aspirations. (But let´s stick to languages, and yes you can separate language from politics.)
“It is useless to cling to past historical events to justify present day positions and hate.”
You are absolutely right. Historical events shouldn’t be used to justify our present injustices, but to avoid them.
“However, we are talking about languages not politics and the people of those countries that you seem to hate so much are not not responsible for the things you claim their government did and do”.
It seems you are beginning to run short of arguments, making it look as if I were some kind of a hater. Of course people are not responsible for their government’s mistakes, I never said or implied such thing. Quite the contrary, I strongly objected when you did blame today’s English dominance on the greediness and ambitions of people, instead of on political strategies of the elites. You don’t get over past historical mistakes by trying to forget or repress them. You must forgive them, and make a commitment to constantly doing so, never forgetting in order to avoid repeating those mistakes. That’s how Japan do it, that’s how Germany do it and that’s how the U.S. do it. That’s how you get over it, forgiving, not forgetting.
As Henry Miller wrote, “a new world is not made simply by trying to forget the old. A new world is made with a new spirit, with new values.”
How about language dominance or language imperialism? How do we get over it? Should we try to forget it? Should we simply ignore it and act as if it is not happening right now? Should we continue to justify it singing Hornsby’s “it’s just the way it is… some things will never change”? Well, I prefer the line where he sings “but don’t you believe them”. No one in his right mind would argue today that racial segregation should prevail out of practical or economic reasons, but let’s not forget that not so long ago it was argued that racial segregation was “just the way it is”.
As for human aspirations, I’m beginning to fear they will be used to make a beautiful book full of grandiloquent words for quote-of-the-day collectors. Every politician should have one, of course in English.
Now you are putting words in my mouth. “I strongly objected when you did blame today’s English dominance on the greediness and ambitions of people” When did I said anything like that? If my saying that people learn English without external compulsion in order to improve their opportunities and well being is what you are using as the basis of such a nonsensical statement then those are your words not mine. The rest of your words are just “sound bytes” for those who want to hear them. And regarding language imperialism, you are the one postulating Esperanto have to be the language used despite its lack of usefulness and the majority of the people refusal to consider it as a possible contender ahead of other more useful languages. And you are a hater! Your words are full of it. A visceral hate for anything American and/or British so much so that if you could, you will force people to learn a language that is not going to be of any use to them in the short or long term (like those parents forced their children to learn a language the children would not benefit with or from) instead of encouraging them to learn a language that indeed will serve a purpose in their lifetime. Beware of minorities that claim to know better than the majority, fanaticism is hidden behind their words.
“Based on my limited experience about language learning I would say that the best way to learn a language is to study it in the country where it is spoken. Esperanto does not have this limitation.” And I will add that it is also based on your lack of the most basic math skills. Question: What is more probable to find in China an English speaker (10,000,000 in 1.2 billion — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population) or an Esperanto speaker (ESTIMATED in 2 million Worldwide, on the same 1.2 billion, considering they all live in China —http://www.ethnologue.com/language/epo). The fact that out of 7 billion you could find at least 500 millions of English speakers to practice with and only 2 millions (if really that much) Esperanto speakers should be enough to push you the English way, or the German, French, Spanish, Mandarin, etc. way. So your statement does not hold any water.
“If you are the kind of person who likes travelling and knowing different cultures then Esperanto will give you an inside look you won’t get going the conventional tourist way.” That is completely absurd. Again (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population) the probability of encountering an Esperanto speaker in any given country is several degree lower than that of finding an English speaker. So if you want to go and visit a country to get an inside look outside the conventional “tourist” way English is still much better than Esperanto will ever be. And of course it goes without saying that using the convencional tourist way will be much more enjoyable using English than Esperanto. I have lived in five countries and visited more that 20, from Spain, France, England and Italy to name a few in Europe to Canada, Mexico, Argentine, Central America and the Caribbean in the new world and I have yet to find a tourist sign in Esperanto. I have done business in many countries and I have yet to find a person who tells me he would rather do business in Esperanto that in English if we cannot use another common language, like Spanish.
And using quotes is clean an efficient, “recycle, recycle to save the environment.” If it have already been said succinctly, elegantly and eloquently why try to say it any other way. Sometimes trying to be unique leads to being ridiculous. See you in the next presidential debate, maybe you can convince them to adopt Esperanto as the language to carry the debate on.
I quote your post from May 16th, 2015: “everybody wanted dollars and Americans don’t speak Esperanto, or French, or German, or Italian, or any other language so there was not much to do but to learn English. Do not blame the Americans, blame your own greediness and ambition. And that is what really irks English opponents, they are to blame as much as everybody else”.
Instead of acknowledging something that is common knowledge, i.e., that the main reason why English is the world dominant language is because of the strategies of two successive global empires, you go off on a tangent and blame it on the greediness and ambition of people. Your words are misleading for at least three reasons:
1) no one here has blamed the people of U.S. for making English the dominant language of the world
2) you try to shift the burden of blame to people
3) you try to talk down the root cause of the matter justifying everything on the economic benefit that a national language can offer to only a third of the world population.
And here is the post from August 12th, where I objected to your words,:
“I guess it’s easier to blame the dominance of English on people’s own greediness and ambition, not in the lies they were brought into with an empty stomach while there were no other options. Yeah, the monopolistic prevalence of English is not intended by the mighty ones, it’s the little people who are the ones to blame, who else! What a tasteless, pathetic joke!”
So yes, those were definitely your words. And no, the people are not to be blamed for the dominance of English, but the elites who have the power to manipulate people.
“Beware of minorities that claim to know better than the majority, fanaticism is hidden behind their words.”
What was that, another quote of the day taken out of context? Here, I give you another one: when the majority is under the power of a strong elite, fanaticism seems like common sense. Here is the context: Nazi Germany, racial segregation, apartheid, language imperialism, persecution of esperantists, etc.
As for you calling me a hater, well, stop interpreting my words through the chauvinistic glasses of your private anti-esperantist crusade. Don’t let your aversion for crude facts and other points of view distort reality to the extreme of seeing fanatics everywhere. If you’re going to lower the level of the debate using insults, then I guess there’s not much to say, other than have a nice life.
“fanaticism seems like common sense. Here is the context: Nazi Germany, racial segregation, apartheid, language imperialism, persecution of esperantists”. Really! Tell that to the people facing ISIS. The Nazis were the fanatics, those who advocate racial segregation are the fanatics, and the esperantists are the fanatics. Fanatics are always the minority wanting to have their way against everybody else’s position, opinion or belief.
Now everybody wants to blame the U.S. for everything they do not blame the British for. The fact of the matter is that France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece and most of the other countries were already in existence when the US was declared into existence in 1776. The Americans didn’t invent imperialism, it was already around when they became a very small independent country. Nowadays their are the only imperialists, according to some. The Germans, the French, the Italians, the Greeks, the northern countries, Austria, Hungary, Russia, China, Japan, the Arabs, the Muslims, etc. including countries that today play the victim like Mexico, Bolivia, Colombia, Argentine, etc. are not, have never been and never were imperialistic. Nor are they imperialistic now in some ways or others.
When the U.S. came into being those were already the rules of the game. They just became better at it than most. Additionally, the U.S.is no saint, nor have they ever claimed to be but there is no country in the World were people have a better chance of becoming somebody despite their ancestors having been nobodies. There is no country in the World that offers and give more help and support to the rest of the World than the U.S. And there is no other country in the World to which people turn to in the case of need as they do to the U.S. (They know that is the place where they have a better possibility of finding such help.) I know you are going to say: They do it for their own reasons, they want the oil, they want to enslave you economically and all the other nice things people like you say as if everybody else is giving things away for nothing.
And yes, greed and ambition are very strong motivators in the human race, unfortunately we are INDIVIDUALS with little chance of really knowing what the other person is thinking so, in general, we tend to be biased to ourselves. Most people don’t learn English because they consider it to be a very nice language. They do it because they think it is the best investment for their time and money. That is the investment they will get the most out of. What is purpose of investing if not to get a substancial return. And that is greed, they want more money. And that is ambition, they want more than what they have.
Now tell me what reasons would you have study English for if it was not your native language? Because it is a beautiful language? I do not think so. I like many languages but have not been able to find the time to study those that will not offer me an economic benefit. Maybe you are one of those that believe that we should leave all the animals free, kill all the scientists and go back to roam the Earth seeking roots and berries with an occasional kill for the animal protein. Well I am not.
And I, unlike you, do not have the time to waste learning a language that do not offer ME any benefits, NOW. You may say the same about English except that it does give those who study it a return for their money. And nobody forces you to speak English. Simply stop using it and go somewhere else where they do not speak the language, truth is there are plenty of places. You can always stick to your principles and refuse to speak such a foul language. Like I do.
Language imperialism? GO, sell your fares to the Chinese.
Esperantists persecution? LOL. Maybe the only time was by the Nazis but just because it was created by a Jew not because the language itself posted any threat.
So, please, offend me by refusing to talk to me in English. After all, you are an anti-imperialist, are you not?
“So if you want to go and visit a country to get an inside look outside the conventional “tourist” way English is still much better than Esperanto will ever be.”
If you speak two languages and none of them is English, you better think twice before travelling to any country. Or you can learn Esperanto, making a huge saving in time and money needed to learn English, and then choose among 90 countries worldwide, paying a visit to “pasportaservo.org”.
In an only-English oriented world your numbers will always favor those who speak English (1000 plus million people), neglecting the huge majority of almost 6000 million people who don’t. I dare say this wouldn’t happen using Esperanto, but how will we ever know if we don’t ever try to get past the languaphobic mentality?
“Fanatics are always the minority wanting to have their way against everybody else’s position, opinion or belief”.
Maybe, but being part of a minority does not in any way imply being a fanatic.
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“Now everybody wants to blame the U.S. for everything they do not blame the British for”.
Everybody? That would mean that the vast majority of the world is opposing the U.S. as “the minority wanting to have their way against everybody else’s position, opinion or belief”. I don’t think you mean that. I would be more cautious in the election of the words, even if they are just cliché expressions. In any case is more realistic to say “many”, than “everybody”. Anyway, I think that each and every nation should take responsibility for their own actions. That’s all I’m saying. And if a nation screw it up big time due to its position of superpower, it’s ok to get criticized for that, regardless the nation. No nation should be spared the trouble of having to deal with criticism when they do questionable things.
“The Americans didn’t invent imperialism […] They just became better at it than most.”
To put it explicitly, I don’t care who is the rapist, I condemn rape as an act of power and control. In our case (language dominance) it just “happens” to be English’s turn to be the dominant language. So there’s no other option than to address the source of the problem giving historical facts that are not so nice but nevertheless true. It’s not about English. It’s not about the U.S. It’s about elites misusing languages.
More than a century ago a minority of people have the foolish idea of pointing out that linguistic hegemony is wrong, proposing something different: Esperanto. They put it into practice during 30 years demonstrating that their proposal worked in real life, in fact so well that highly renowned scientists and governments of that time agreed to use it as a working language in Europe. In the last minute, the government of France prevents this from happening, arguing French language is losing prestige as the dominant language. A hundred years later (today), the argument is that Esperanto seems unnecessary because English is gaining lots of prestige, which is exactly the opposite reason given about French. Moreover, language imperialism has become fashionable, outdating the terms “imperial” and “dominant”, using instead the term “international”, which is the original name of Esperanto: lingvo internacia (international language).
You go even further, saying that esperantists are just a bunch of fanatics dreaming to conquer the world or collapse the global economy using Esperanto. I find it very odd that the United Nations and the UNESCO has failed for over 60 years to see this. Maybe you should warn them to stop supporting Esperanto as a valuable ideal.
“what reasons would you have study English for if it was not your native language? Because it is a beautiful language? I do not think so”.
You’re right. I did not learn English because it was a beautiful language, which I think it is, but because it was imposed at school, there wasn’t any other option. The irony of it is I’m glad I did learn it, not because it had helped me economically, which is not my case, but because it gives me the privilege to access information directly in the most extended language of our present time. The fact that English is the global imperial (also called dominant) language of the world does not prevent me from acknowledging its beauty and usefulness.
“And I, unlike you, do not have the time to waste learning a language that do not offer ME any benefits, NOW.”
That’s your choice, and it’s ok. Those who choose to learn Esperanto have their own personal reasons, ranging from the pure satisfaction of communicating in a language that is quite easy and fast to learn, to those who make a living out of it.
“And nobody forces you to speak English. Simply stop using it and go somewhere else where they do not speak the language, truth is there are plenty of places.”
You’re right again, nobody forces me to speak it. As a matter of fact I very rarely speak English, mostly I just read or listen to it. I love to watch English-speaking movies, documentaries and debates. I like lots of English music groups and artists. I just don’t share your opinion about Esperanto or esperantists. And I most certainly totally disagree when you call them fanatics, simply because it’s not true.
“Esperantists persecution? LOL. Maybe the only time was by the Nazis but just because it was created by a Jew not because the language itself posted any threat.”
I understand you don’t have the time to check facts about the history of Esperanto, but seriously, just a quick look at Wikipedia would suffice to avoid making absurd claims. The only accurate word in that sentence of yours is “LOL” (and the question mark).
I posted again my previous comment (August 27th, 2015) because there are some missing text in it due to some error. Here’s the link with the full text:
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/english-official-language-eu/#comment-269699
Which of the following sentences is wrong?
(1) If we want a common currency, we invent the Euro.
(2) If we want a common flag, we design the EU flag.
(3) If we want a common language, we use English.
If you think all the sentences are right, why don’t we use in the EU the Pound Sterling and the British flag? Like the English language, they are more known in the world than those of the rest of member states of the EU.
It would definitely not be a bad idea if you could convince the british to go along with it, which I very much doubt.
Go figure!
Esperanto estu.
Hi from the USA. My native language is German, and I also speak fluent English and Spanish. Addittionally, I speak French, Dutch, and Portuguese. If you want to live and work in another country, learn that country’s language, period. That is a courtesy to the folks in that country. As far as a language to use by eveyone everywhere, puh-leeze! We do not even have that here in the USA, where millions of people only speak Spanish, which, by the way, is probably going to overtake English by 2050. With google translator, who cares? I say leave Englsh, French and German as EU working languages, and do the courtesy of learning the recognized language (s) of the place where choose to live and work (mind you , it is your choice, no one is forcing you to move there). Be zuse of the huge influence american culture has on the, and the influx of spanish speakers here, probably worldwide most people are going be ablt prattle in one of those languages anyway, meanwhile celebrate your european diversity and uniqueness, it would be crying shame, and make for a more boring world if all is homogenized.
Let the infighting, rude comments, and snarkiness begin.
Bis auf nächsten mal, tschüß!
There is a practicality element to your suggestion. I am learning the national Asian language of the country in which I now live. However, in many countries outside of Europe, people will naturally speak to you in English and they think it rather quaint if you learn their language and do not expect you to do it. Only in European countries have I found the attitude o people that you should learn their language. After spending about four hours of most days for the last year learning the language of the country in which I now live, I still do not understand local people when they speak normally and at a normal pace or when I watch television. It simply would not have been practical to learn all of the native languages of all the countries where I have lived and worked. I repeat, ONLY in European countries, is there the resistance to people communicating in English and the attitude that you should learn their native language. I remember years ago going to remote places in Loas, where people live in houses made of thatched leaves, with dirt floors and an open fire to cook on, they wash at a well on the village road with an earth surface and they catch fish in woven baskets they make themselves. All road signs are in English. All products that you buy in shops made of vines and thatched roofs have labelling in English, and I,m not talking about imported products. Go to Norway, and items in shops have packaging in Norwegian, street sighs are in Norwegian.
What I find a little aggravating about so many European people, including, if not especially Russian people, is their insistence upon their native language. People who live in isolated regions of the world that have cultures vastly different from anything to be found near European countries, embrace English by choice, and consider it to be the western Caucasian man,s language that they themselves want to learn to embrace the modern world whilst maintains their own culture. What do they find when they speak English to these western Caucasian people? They find that these western Caucasian people themselves do not wish to speak English, unless obliged to do so. I remember a few months ago, going to a bar in Thailand that is often frequented by some German people. Some of the Thai bar staff spoke very good German. The accent even sounded almost exactly as that of native Germans. One day, one girl working there got a bit frustrated. ” I am a Thai girl, I am not German, so please speak to me in English” . This makes a point better than I could possibly make it myself. This girl came from a rural countryside area in an asian country. ” I am a Thai girl, so speak to me in English”
Well obviously Ronnie, those who consider English “to be the western Caucasian man’s language” are WRONG to do so. When western Caucasians who are French. German, Dutch, Danish, Spanish, Italian, Polish, Croatian etc. “do not wish to speak English, unless obliged to do so”, English is evidently NOT the “western Caucasian man’s language” is it?????
No Vilheĉjo Framptono, it certainly is not, but it sure is a better language to get by in the World that any of the languages you named. By the way , I noticed you did not mention Esperanto. They are important languages, representing large sections of the World population and good markets for products. However, they are not in any way comparable to English regarding the possibilities it (English) offers, of being understood in other parts of the World that a person does not know the language of, nor in the potential benefits a person can obtain by learning it. Both economically and socially. Even culturally, all the tourism signage, flyers and advertising is mostly in English and those who want their local Culture known put down all explanations in English, not because they like Americans or Brits or Australians or Canadians or South Africans or even Indians or any of the other nationalities or people whose native/official language happens to be English better but because they also like the rest of the people and they have come to understand that English give them access to a greater number of people from a larger number of countries of the World.
The only thing is that many Europeans cannot stand the fact that after having been top dogs in World affairs for years, at different times in History, nowadays, even though they are still important and retain considerable clout, people in the rest of the World are looking up to non-European countries like the US, Russia and China, and that must hurt.
I have no need to spell out which language I consider best Alejandro Carlos, the fact that used the Esperanto form of my name says it all.
I must say that I’m very surprised that anyone (yourself included) who is a native speaker of another European language would seriously advocate the use of a language which would require the more than 1 milliard speakers of other European languages to learn and accept incorrect meanings of thousands of words derived from Latin, Greek, Hebrew, etc. which they already understand correctly from their native language. That alone is reason enough to reject the anarchic, mongrel dog’s breakfast known as English.
Vilheĉjo Framptono, I am sorry if I did not realize you were using the Esperanto form of your name to identify yourself as an Esperantist. Does that means I should call myself “Alexander Charles” to show that I advocate English as a second language. Do you not agree with me that if I had done that you would have thought my name was Alexander Charles and not Alejandro Carlos?
Please, do not be surprised about my endorsing of the English language,
it is based on reason not in others considerations, but allow me to point out that there are not a “milliard” people presently living in the EU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union) and even if there were they would not have to be taught English since presently more than half of the European population already know to speak English, at least to a certain level (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language_in_Europe and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317470/English-language-Europe-thirds-continents-people-speak-it.html).
However, I do not see you bothered at all with having to teach Esperanto to a larger portion of that same “milliard” of people, plus having to change everything that is already in English to Esperanto. Plus teach Esperanto to all the rest of the people of the World, a large portion of which already speak English, at least to a certain extent, nor do I see you bothered for having to also change everything that is already in English in the rest of the World to Esperanto. Talk about being practical.
And please, excuse me if I am a little slow, but which words are you referring to as having incorrect meaning because they come from Latin, Greek, etc. I imagine that you would also say the same happens in Spanish since there are hundreds of words, if not thousands, in Spanish which also derive from Latin Greek and other languages and that have a different meaning than the original. For example “actual” comes from Latin, both in English and Spanish ( http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/actual and http://lema.rae.es/drae/?val=actual) but it has different meanings. So does “liar” and “moron.”
Je veux dire à ce Monsieur Alejandro Carlos que l’Esperanto n’est pas impérialiste et que ce ne sont pas des fanatiques. Que ceux qui critiquent l’Esperanto, ce sont ceux qui ne le connaissent pas et qui ne l’ont jamais essayé. Alors avant de critiquer quelque chose, on l’essaye. Moi je critique l’anglais car j’en connais la difficulté, les inconvénients et les dégâts. L’anglais est très souvent imprononçable pour ceux qui ne sont pas nés anglais. C’est pour cette raison que l’anglais imposé dans l’aviation en 1951 en est une des principales causes d’accidents et incidents car c’est une langue pas claire que des pilotes ne comprennent pas ce qu’on leur dit alors moi je dis qu’il faut être fou et cinglé pour imposer cela à des pays non anglais. De nombreuses personnes disent que c’est l’espéranto qu’il leur faudrait, des personnes non espérantophones qui savent ce que c’est, même des ingénieurs aéronautiques se plaignent que cela leur pose des problèmes et que c’est l’espéranto qu’il leur faudrait ; ce sont les amis de l’anglais, langue impérialiste, qui sont des fanatiques, mais pas les espérantistes, donc Monsieur, vous n’avez pas raison. Je ne parle pas anglais que l’on m’a imposé et que je n’ai jamais pu parler, ni comprendre, ni lire, j’ai travaillé 39 ans dans l’aviation, pour cela que je connais bien les inconvénients de l’anglais qui avantage toujours un pays mais pas les autres. Quand ceux qui disent l’anglais est facile, c’est un mensonge parce que ce n’est pas vrai. Moi je dis non à l’anglais.
Mlle. Lambert. Je ne parle pas français. Je ne l’ai jamais parlé français. Je ne vais pas parler français jamais. Il est très désagréable à l’oreille.
I just want to say that it is in bad taste, to say the least, to respond in a language different than the one being used in a conversation. And if you are going to criticize English pronunciation and its learning difficulty, please use a language other than French. French is much more difficult to pronounce and learn than English, and when it comes to communicating with native speakers of the language, French are way more intolerant of incorrect use, to the point of not giving credit to those trying to use it for the effort and courteously try to understand them. No wonder it fell precipitously from its perch as the most important language, being used in diplomacy and such.
And regarding the imperialistic side, well French is no better, being the language spoken in an Empire that lasted several centuries. Longer than the time the US have been in existence. And yes, many times Esperantists behave as fanatics, they want you to accept their word as being the gospel, without having the ability nor the inclination of proving their claims, and completely ignore the mountain of opposing evidence, which have been shown and proven, just like a fanatic.
Additionally, do not blame the aviation accidents on the language, it does not speak itself. Blame the pilots and the controllers who did not learn it correctly. I wonder what would have happened had French, German, Spanish or any other language been the one adopted. I mean, if the pilot spoke only French and the controller spoke only Danish understanding would have been so much easier.
Uniunea Europeană este un bloc format din diverse țări, fiecare aducand propria limbă și cultură la masa, este o celebrare a unității noastre și, în același timp, diferențele dintre noi.
Când vine vorba de limbi, răspunde trebui să fie foarte simplu: limba oficială a Uniunii Europene ar trebui să fie limba engleză și toate limbile statelor membre în materie de către Parlamentul European și Comisia Europeană (în care orice persoană poate comunica în limbă la alegerea sa, și de a primi servicii de UE în limba sa maternă.
În capacități practice (adică în viața de zi cu zi), limba oficială ar trebui să fie limba engleză și limba oficială maternă a statului membru. Accentul trebuie pus pe faptul că în timp ce avem nevoie de o singură limbă oficială, care poate fi rostit pe întreg teritoriul UE, conservarea culturii locale înseamnă că limbile native ar trebui să fie în continuare predate și promovate în fiecare zi, și că oamenii ar trebui să fie mândri de limba lor maternă, pentru că este o manifestare a patrimoniului lor și cultura lor. O persoană ar trebui să vorbească în limba sa maternă, atunci când în țara lor, dar atunci când călătoriți în altă țară, acestea ar trebui să vorbească limba engleză. În România, semne pot dotate orice limba, dar română (limba oficială) trebuie să fie prezentate în mod vizibil pe semnul.
De exemplu, eu sunt român, când sunt în România, vorbesc limba oficială a țării mele, când am de călătorie în Franța, Germania, Italia sau cunoștințele mele de limba engleză îmi va permite să comunice cu francezi, germani, italieni sau. Deci, în caz de urgență pot obține informații urgente prin intermediul autorităților corespunzătoare. O persoană francez ar trebui să vorbesc franceza în Franța, o persoană italian ar trebui să vorbească italiana în Italia, o persoană ar trebui să german vorbesc germana in Germania. Dacă oamenii de mai sus călătorească Resita sau Arad în România, limba engleză ar fi bridge să facă schimb de informații importante cu funcționari hotel sau ofițeri de poliție.
De aceea, atunci când am posta pe forumuri similare cu aceasta am posta, folosind limba engleză și română, engleză, astfel încât oamenii din întreaga UE mine, și română înțelege în semn de recunoaștere a culturii și a patrimoniului meu. Motiv pentru care eu personal cred că fiecare persoană în acest forum ar trebui să scrie în limba lor maternă și limba engleză, astfel încât să putem comunica eficient (și ca toată lumea să ne poată înțelege) și să recunoască de unde venim.
The European Union is a bloc made up of diverse country, each bringing their own language and culture to the table, it is a celebration of our unity and at the same time our differences.
When it comes to languages, it answer should be very simple: the official language of the European Union should be English and EVERY language of the member states in matters relating to the European Parliament, and the European Commission(in which any person can communicate in the language of his choice, and receive EU services in his native language.
In practical capacities (meaning in every day life), the official language should be English and the official native language of the member state. Emphasis must be placed on the fact that while we need to have a single official language that can be spoken THROUGHOUT the entire EU, the preservation of local culture means that native languages should still be taught and promoted in everyday, and that people should be proud of their native language, because it is a manifestation of their heritage and their culture. A person should speak in his native language when in their own country, but when travel to another country, they should speak English. In Romania, signs can feature any language, but Romanian (the official language) must be featured prominently on the sign.
For example, I am Romanian, when I am in Romania, I speak the official language of my country, when I travel to France, Germany, or Italy my knowledge of English will allow me to communicate with French, Germans, or Italians. So in case of emergency I can get urgent information through to the proper authorities. A French person should speak French in France, an Italian person should speak Italian in Italy, a German person should speak German in Germany. If the above mentioned people travel to Resita or Arad in Romania, English would be bridge to exchange important information with hotel clerks or police officers.
That is why when I post on forums similar to this I post using English and Romanian, English so that people throughout the EU understands me, and Romanian in recognition of my culture and heritage. Which is why I personally believe that every person in this forum should write in their native language AND English, so that we can communicate effectively (and that everybody can understand us) and to recognize where we come from.
“So if you want to go and visit a country to get an inside look outside the conventional “tourist” way English is still much better than Esperanto will ever be.”
If you speak two languages and none of them is English, you better think twice before travelling to any country. Or you can learn Esperanto, making a huge saving in time and money needed to learn English, and then choose among 90 countries worldwide, paying a visit to “pasportaservo.org”.
In an only-English oriented world your numbers will always favor those who speak English (1000 plus million people), neglecting the huge majority of almost 6000 million people who don’t. I dare say this wouldn’t happen using Esperanto, but how will we ever know if we don’t ever try to get past the languaphobic mentality?
“Fanatics are always the minority wanting to have their way against everybody else’s position, opinion or belief”.
Maybe, but being part of a minority does not in any way imply being a fanatic.
– “When faith in our freedom gives way to fear of our freedom, silencing the minority view becomes the operative protocol.”
– “True leaders do not make choices with reference to the opinion of the majority. They make choices based on the opinion of the truth and the truth can come from either the majority or the minority!”
– “The minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the crowd who have no opinion.”
“Now everybody wants to blame the U.S. for everything they do not blame the British for”.
Everybody? That would mean that the vast majority of the world is opposing the U.S. as “the minority wanting to have their way against everybody else’s position, opinion or belief”. I don’t think you mean that. I would be more cautious in the election of the words, even if they are just cliché expressions. In any case is more realistic to say “many”, than “everybody”. Anyway, I think that each and every nation should take responsibility for their own actions. That’s all I’m saying. And if a nation screw it up big time due to its position of superpower, it’s ok to get criticized for that, regardless the nation. No nation should be spared the trouble of having to deal with criticism when they do questionable things.
“The Americans didn’t invent imperialism […] They just became better at it than most.”
To put it explicitly, I don’t care who is the rapist, I condemn rape as an act of power and control. In our case (language dominance) it just “happens” to be English’s turn to be the dominant language. So there’s no other option than to address the source of the problem giving historical facts that are not so nice but nevertheless true. It’s not about English. It’s not about the U.S. It’s about elites misusing languages.
More than a century ago a minority of people have the foolish idea of pointing out that linguistic hegemony is wrong, proposing something different: Esperanto. They put it into practice during 30 years demonstrating that their proposal worked in real life, in fact so well that highly renowned scientists and governments of that time agreed to use it as a working language in Europe. In the last minute, the government of France prevents this from happening, arguing French language is losing prestige as the dominant language. A hundred years later (today), the argument is that Esperanto seems unnecessary because English is gaining lots of prestige, which is exactly the opposite reason given about French. Moreover, language imperialism has become fashionable, outdating the terms “imperial” and “dominant”, using instead the term “international”, which is the original name of Esperanto: lingvo internacia (international language).
You go even further, saying that esperantists are just a bunch of fanatics dreaming to conquer the world or collapse the global economy using Esperanto. I find it very odd that the United Nations and the UNESCO has failed for over 60 years to see this. Maybe you should warn them to stop supporting Esperanto as a valuable ideal.
“what reasons would you have study English for if it was not your native language? Because it is a beautiful language? I do not think so”.
You’re right. I did not learn English because it was a beautiful language, which I think it is, but because it was imposed at school, there wasn’t any other option. The irony of it is I’m glad I did learn it, not because it had helped me economically, which is not my case, but because it gives me the privilege to access information directly in the most extended language of our present time. The fact that English is the global imperial (also called dominant) language of the world does not prevent me from acknowledging its beauty and usefulness.
“And I, unlike you, do not have the time to waste learning a language that do not offer ME any benefits, NOW.”
That’s your choice, and it’s ok. Those who choose to learn Esperanto have their own personal reasons, ranging from the pure satisfaction of communicating in a language that is quite easy and fast to learn, to those who make a living out of it.
“And nobody forces you to speak English. Simply stop using it and go somewhere else where they do not speak the language, truth is there are plenty of places.”
You’re right again, nobody forces me to speak it. As a matter of fact I very rarely speak English, mostly I just read or listen to it. I love to watch English-speaking movies, documentaries and debates. I like lots of English music groups and artists. I just don’t share your opinion about Esperanto or esperantists. And I most certainly totally disagree when you call them fanatics, simply because it’s not true.
“Esperantists persecution? LOL. Maybe the only time was by the Nazis but just because it was created by a Jew not because the language itself posted any threat.”
I understand you don’t have the time to check facts about the history of Esperanto, but seriously, just a quick look at Wikipedia would suffice to avoid making absurd claims. The only accurate word in that sentence of yours is “LOL” (and the question mark).
This debate is getting too far from the original question. It’s about the “official language”. If it’s the language of politicians in Brussels, English might be OK. But if you will have a bloody traffic offense abroad and you will be able to manage it only in English than you must know the language, which is ten times more difficult to learn than Esperanto… Is it fair for a dyslexic carpenter or any other ordinary person? There are many people who cannot speak English properly, because English is not easy at all!
Have a look at this link:
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/?tJbwlab
Have you considered that most of the seven billion people of the world, if they were asked if they knew Esperanto, would probably think that is was a person or a place, but not a language. The largest single unifying language in Europe was the Celtic language, as the Celts dominated most of Europe, and beyond. The Celtic language remains the indigenous native language of my home country of Scotland, where almost no one learns it because it is considered to be of little use because no other countries outside of Scotland speak it. There is an assumption that on European countries, people should firstly speak their own native language. You will have a hard time convincing the people of Scotland to do this, as they see it as being as useless as learning Italian, Norwegian, Dutch, or Portugese.
I think english should be the only offical language in europe
Mi opinias, ke Esperanto estus la unuopa oficiala lingvo en Eŭropo.
BTW, writing in English upon Europe you should use more majuscule letters.
hey guys im a 10 grade that live in norway can you please answer my question right now if it is impossible because were going to have a debate on our school tommorow :)
1. why did english gained such a dominant posssition?
2. why should we speak english in Europe?
3. Do you prefer to make English as your official language in Europe
1. After World War II, Russia and the United States with its ally Great Britain, emerged as the clear winners. Though France is usually cited on the winning side, its influence was greatly diminished by Nazi occupation. Russia and the two Anglo-Saxon countries (US and GB) divided Europe into two spheres of influence: the Soviet sphere under what they called communism and the US/GB sphere the main ideology of which was and is unfettered capitalism with the main centers of financial power being The City in London and Wall Street in New York. Given that power emulated from these two centers, the languages spoken there (Gb-English and US-English) became the two main means of communication with those in economic power.
2.I live in Florida in the US. Even though we are part of the United States, Spanish is our second lingua franca. Many immigrants from non-Spanish speaking regions first acquire Spanish and then American English (though not all, since you can work and participate in education and government here in Spanish). It is my personal opinion, as a teacher of (American) English to immigrants and refugees, that for intra-European communication English is a poor choice, unless you are in need of communicating with The City, Wall Street or one of its lesser agencies.
3. I just returned from a trip to France and Belgium with my Brazilian husband. we found it very hard to understand the English spoken in Belgium. Since I speak fluent French, most of our communication in France was in French, which my husband understands but does not speak. His comment on English-speaking Europeans was that they seemed very rude. This is probably because though they observed the grammatical rules of English they did not have a command of the pragmatics (the actual use of the language). We both also speak Esperanto and when consorting with people who also speak Esperanto our social relations were much more pleasant and informative.
“It is my personal opinion, as a teacher of (American) English to immigrants and refugees, that for intra-European communication English is a poor choice, unless you are in need of communicating with The City, Wall Street or one of its lesser agencies.”
You are absolutely right. Apart from that UK is at the brink of leaving EU. And without even any other English speaking member country why should EU adopt English for its intra-communication? The best choice could be do adopt another language spoken widely within EU. This choice of course would be a very expensive choice for Europe and even worser then adopting English which is relatively the easiest language to be learned. Thus the best choice would be to adopt a language like Esperanto which almost any European person could learn it within a month and start communicating. Of course for technical and official matters of the EU and other things there is a need to learn the language much more thoroughly which will not again be a large investment of money and time respectively to English language…
Dankojn al Kvasnak ! Perfekta respondo…..
I’d like to remind everyone of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.
Article 21 – Non-discrimination
1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, **language**, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
Article 22 – Cultural, religious and linguistic diversity
The Union shall respect cultural, religious and linguistic diversity.
Article 41 – Right to good administration
4. Every person may write to the institutions of the Union in one of the languages of the Treaties and must have an answer in the same language.
Except for being in a remote village in Asia, near the Chineese border, where people lived in mud floored buildings with thatched roofs and open hearth fires, the only place I have ever had frustrations with people not speaking English, is in European countries. Go to Arab. Countries, and everyone will address you in Emglish, Asian countries the same. Go however to European countries and that is not the case. French in France, etc. people in the farthest and most remote regions of the world learn the language of the western Caucasian, English, for their benefit, and they themselves don’t want to speak the language unless obliged by neccessity. You may think his to be a narrow minded point of view, but think about this. The indigenous mother toungue language of the country I come from, Scotland, is Gaelic. However, virtually no one learns it, as it seems rather pointless to use a language that cannot be utilised to communicate with the rest of the planet. This logic does not seem to apply in European countries. International press statements are made in a language not internationally understood. All the developing countries who learn English for the sake of the western Caucasians must wonder why they bothered making the effort. Perhaps I should learn Gaelic, just so that I can yak away in it to French, Italian, etc people who may visit Scotland. Daft!
Before I start receiving any less than pleasant responses. I myself am learning the Asian languages of the country in which I now live. The indigenous people find it mostly to be rather quaint, but often point out that there is no need to because everyone speaks good English. The local people sit there listening to Europeans yakking away in Dutch, Norwegian, etc. when the locals address me (in English of course) I make a point of replying to them in their language. You would think that some people who can speak English, but who do not, might be a little embarrassed by this, and switch to at least speaking English, considering that the locals have learned it for their sake. Not a bit of it! Yak, yak, yak Dutch etc.
The problem with English as the official language is that it gives an advantage to native English speakers over non-native ones. Non-native speakers have to spend time learning English instead of spending that time on learning some other useful subjects.
As a Scottish person, my native language is Gaelic. Your argument assumes that I therefore learned my native language and then spent time learning English, when my time could have been better spent on learning something more useful. This is not the case. I learned English and did not learn my native language, because the time could have been better spent learning something more useful. About 95 percent of the population of Scotland do the same, for the same reason. It is admirable if people make the effort to learn their historical indigenous language, but this should not negate the need to be able to communicate with the rest of the human beings in the world. For example, there are around 200 languages in use in Nigeria, but everyone requires to learn English.
Right!
Ĝuste! Vi pravas.
Juist! Ge hebt gelijk.
Actually, it will give them an advantage instead, if they learn the language well, because then they will speak two languages which is something most English native speakers do not do. And contrary to what a lot of people believe being a native speaker does not mean they speak it well, it just mean they were born to the language.
I am currently learning Thai, which I do not find easy, and is very time consuming. I am also trying to learn a bit of Isaan, a different Thai language, commonly used by people that originates from the rice growing region. I am doing this for reasons of personal interest after first learning the language that allows common understanding between peoples and nations.
It’s nice to hear that you do not find natural that the local people should speak English… Because it is not natural… Maybe Latin? Would there people understand Latin? It was good for two thousand years in Europe and in the colonies (of colonising countries)! Why not further on? I wouldn’t mind, I use it… or Esperanto? That is twenty times easier than Latin. English has been a success story for only about a hundred years… It’s history… So, Latin? Or Esperanto?
Hello Toni. Thank you for the wise words that you provide, but I notice that you provide them in English, to allow other people to understand what you mean. Unfortunately, there are certain things in life that most people would rather not do, but need to do, these things typically include going to work to earn a living, so that we can eat, paying taxes, to provide social welfare, dying, to comply with natural law, and learning the language that allows us to communicate with other members of our species.
But it is still a success story! What I think is that Europeans, who consider Americans some new comers, resent the worldwide success of English as a consequence of the spread and acceptance of their message of Freedom and Equality (even though they don necessarily follows their own advice) and of their economic success. Europeans took first draw in doing everything they criticize Americans of doing, all of them: Spaniards, French, Italians, Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, Russians, Austrians, Dutch, etc. And in spite of being much worse in most cases they never got quite as much acceptance as the Americans do today. I am leaving the Brits out on purpose because I really believe they deserve most of the credit instead.
Yes, it is true, it is not natural that they learn English, but it is useful for them. Like it is not natural for millions who choose to learn English everyday, like it was not natural that I learned English when I did since I did not needed it in my country. But it was useful! And Latin may have been useful in its day but not today. I am sorry but Esperanto does not qualify, it has never been useful!
Esperanto estas senvalora! Nun kaj en la horo de nia morto, amen.
En réponse à Alejandro Carlos…
Je m’exprime en français, qui est une des langues OFFICIELLES de l’UE (et j’espère encore pour longtemps!)
C’est fatigant de toujours devoir rappeler aux gens la plus élémentaire logique. POURQUOI l’espéranto est-il “moins utile” en général dans le monde que l’anglais? Parce que, quoique –mal parlé–, il l’est par beaucoup de gens.
(NB: la langue équitable espéranto est bel et bien UTILE, tout dépendant de l’usage que l’on vise. Ainsi les échanges que j’ai eus par sa médiation, y compris conférences ou rencontres humaines m’ont été UTILES. Si l’on vise la fraternité, le pacifisme, ou la lutte pour la justice sociale, il est sans doute bien plus adapté que n’importe quelle langue “naturelle”. Mais bref.)
Cette situation de “moindre utilité” (avec toutes les réserves ci-dessus) a été voulue. Phillipson nous montre bien pourquoi et comment dans son livre “linguistic imperialism”. Suite à la conférence de Londres en 1961, on a enseigné l’anglais dans presque tous les systèmes d’enseignement d’Europe puis du monde, et l’espéranto NON. Des décennies après, les gens se servent de ce qu’on a mis à leur disposition. C’est logique mais injuste. Cohérent comme outil de colonisation mentale, mais dégueulasse du point de vue de la morale.
Jusqu’en 1939, l’espéranto progressait et était plebiscité par le Peuple. Seuls des bourgeois colonialistes et chauvins comme Bérard (en France) s’y opposaient.
Puis est venue la guerre, occasion de défaire (entre autres) le Front Populaire Français. La hiérarchie de l’armée était probablement complice, “plutôt Hitler que les Rouges” pensaient certains…
L’anglomanie est un “FAIT ACCOMPLI” comme l’est le nucléaire pour produire de l’énergie, ou le Traité de Lisbonne imposé aux peuples qui avaient voté contre le TCE en 2005! CELA NE SIGNIFIE PAS que ce soit bon pour la majorité des gens, ni que ce soient des outils de démocratie. Ce sont des instruments de POUVOIR.
Je suis d’ailleurs persuadée que les zélateurs de l’anglais sur les forums ou ailleurs ne sont PAS QUE des individus “lambda”, mais que parmi eux il y a des employés d’organisations plus ou moins “officielles”, et manipulatrices. Alejandro Carlos pourrait bien être une personne de ce genre.
Certains pseudo-arguments me semblent fallacieux et, je n’ai pas peur de le dire, malhonnêtes.
Allez donc savoir ce qui peut motiver certaines personnes à passer des heures et des heures pour saper les arguments de bon sens de ceux qui souhaitent plus de démocratie et d’équité.
Car l’espéranto est un outil émancipateur, et je me demande bien en quoi ça dérange M Alejandro Carlos. Sans compter qu’à bien des égards, l’espéranto est supérieur à l’anglais (en matière de rigueur et précision, notamment, et naturellement orthographe et prononciation).
Leo De Cooman mai quam sook law?Baw pen yang. Moo wan quee puean. Puean kow chia Koon.
อ้อย
That was a good one, for being a show off. This is a debate about English, which is being carried out in English, but many here like to respond in other languages in the hope the person being responded to do not understand and to show how scholastic they are. Let’s see how smart is he now. (Not that I understood what you said, but I got the point, hopefully he will too, I doubt it, though.)
By the way I agree with you in that language is not what define a culture in spite of being a participant in it.
Totally agree with Mr Carlos. Most native English speakers do not speak the language well. The English themselves, for example, typically put a letter ” r” at the end of the words ” saw” and ” law” which then become ” sawr” and ” Lawr” ” door” is pronounced ” daw” which is a slang word for a pigeon, and “corridor ” becomes ” corridaw” . The North Americans are even worse. Forgetting the incorrect spellings, that so many computers at places of work are set to use as a default setting, rout, meaning being expelled by military force is used in place of route. Leisure time is leesure time, stipulating that someone is at a raised elevation is given as a greeting, and worse of all, “My girlfriend really sucks” is supposedly a bad thing !?!?
ທຸກໆ ຄົນ ມີເຫດ ຜົນ ແລະ ຄວາມຄິດ ຄວາມ ເຫັນ ສ່ວນ ຕົວ ຂອງ ໃຜ ຂອງ ມັນ, ແຕ່ວ່າ ມະນຸດ ທຸກໆ ຄົນ ຄວນ ປະພຶດ ຕໍ່ ກັນ ຄື ກັນ ກັບ ເປັນອ້າຍ ນ້ອງ ກັນ.
ວ່າເປັນຄວາມຄິດທີ່ດີ
Yet again, agree with the logic of Mr Carlos, although I believe that the influence that North America had on spreading the use of Emglish throughout the world had more to do with the widespread distribution of their Hollywood films, rather than any desire to copy their political standpoint. This, together with a need for other countries who exported their products to the worlds largest consumer, to put their packaging literature, advertising, and verbal sales pitch in the language of those consumers. Not sure that many would agree with ” freedom and equality” for a country where socialist goals of having a moral conscience is a thing despised ( although they do have social welfare to prevent people from starving or freezing to death – not quite sure how they support such things if it goes against their basic ideas though).
Do not underestimate the power of “do as I say and not as I do”. Even though it is true that Hollywood has contributed its fair share in the spread of the “American Culture” it is no less true that the “Freedom and Equality” message resonate with people of the Third World. This is said from the perspective and experience of someone who was born and raised to adulthood in the only self-described Communist country in the American Continent, and being able to speak the language of the countries (Third World countries that is) of the continent and having lived in two of them (besides my original country and the U.S.) and visited most others I can tell you that Hollywood has less influence than one is led to believe. Moreover even today most pictures are dubbed rather than subtitled, the education level is less than what their governments say it is and it is difficult for most people to keep up with the plot while reading.
On the other hand the propaganda, I will call it that because it is what it is, of all the things that America has to offer has a lot to be blamed for regarding the “American Culture” influence. It is true it is not always accomplished or even possible to many that emigrate to the U.S. to fulfil the American Dream. It is no less true that it is the country with the higher probability of success for a person that really bend over and tread water against the current. I know because I got to the U.S. with no money and big dreams and through hard work and determination I was able to make it (well in my case not all the way since I did not became one of the richest man in the World like Gate or Zuckerberg) to a position of wellbeing and financial independence that was all but prohibited to me before. And I am not a genius nor do I have rich relatives.
Many people in the Third World may not agree with many things they are told about America, but then again most people know about a relative, a friend or of someone who emigrated and was able to succeed. That does not mean they became rich but it does mean they were able to accomplish things they were not going to accomplish in their own countries no matter what they did. Additionally, they may not agree with some or most of what they believe or are told about America but they agree even less with the status quo in their countries, in which corruption, lack of individual liberties and the impossibility of making it unless you belong The Inner Circle, or at least are related to it somehow, make it almost impossible to live decently.
That is said no only about the Spanish speaking Third World countries I have visited and lived in but also of all the other countries I have visited and talked with their people. It is true they disagree with many things American say and do but it is also true they cannot help but to admire a country in which you can succeed on your own merits regardless your particular profile or situation.
But I agree with you in that the need of selling their own products to what is seen as the bigger and richer Market in the World has contributed enormously to the spread of the English language, but then again that is exactly what I have been saying all along. People want American products and people want to sell their product to America which makes English not a luxury but a necessity. And that also goes for the simple, common individual who want to work in the companies that sell or buy products from the U.S. since it make them more appealing to the employers and allows them to earn better wages.
I do not see France, Germany or even England as a threat to that America hegemony. Presently there are only two countries that could become a serious threat. One is China, which presently is the second biggest economic power after the U.S., but I don’t see Chinese as a threat to the preponderance and usefulness of English as a potential World language. Chinese is too complicated and hard to learn plus everything that is already in English will have to be translated and changed. The other one, although it may seem strange to many, is Russia. Biggest country in the World, an ego larger than the American and a score to settle with the World in general and the Americans in particular. Again I do not see Russian as a language threatening English. A great number of people in China and Russia are learning English and by the time one of them actually pushes America out of the way there will be so many people speaking English in those countries as to make it impractical, to say the least, trying to take English out of the picture.
Finally, one thing you do not really want to depend on is the welfare system in a socialist/communist country. Except North Korea and Cuba all other still exiting socialist/communist countries had to somehow embrace the capitalist economic way of production/consumption, at least in a limited way, even though they do not advertise that fact, and Cuba is quietly bidding its time. Remember the biggest and stauncher stronghold of communism crumbled down many years ago, from their own incompetence, and regardless of what Americans want people to believe they part in that demise was, that was something already in the cooker and pressure got to be too much for their economic model to resist.
I was making reference to countries that have a moral conscience in terms of care of its people. Not the economic model of Communism. Norway is a country with very socialist goals country, and with enormous wealth. The UK embodies very strong socialist principles, irrespective of what political party is in power, with a state pension for all, free education, a National Health Service, winter fuel allowances for the elderly. Very many European countries also have socialist goals funded by a market economy.
Non, l’anglais ne doit pas être la langue officielle de l’Union Européenne car cela avantage un pays et un peuple mais pas les autres, vu sa difficulté, les inconvénients et les dégâts de cette langue, voir les inconvénients de l’anglais dans la communication aéronautique que des ingénieurs aériens se plaignent que cela leur pose des problèmes. Il y a l’Espéranto facile pour tous, c’est cela qu’il faut tout en respectant les langues maternelles et où personne ne perd son identité, l’anglais fait perdre l’identité et ne respecte pas les langues maternelles et nationales, ils les détruisent, le français n’est pas respecté en France, l’Italien en Italie non plus. Il faut changer cette politique de cette commission européenne qui ne respecte rien du tout et fait une politique à l’encontre des citoyens. Et oui l’Anglais ne convient pas à tout le monde ! Il y en a marre de voir que l’anglais sur ce site. Tout le monde ne parle pas anglais !
Chop keeyan khon Mai cow chia, leaw thee koon. Noung pee Pom bie deowe tallay leh deun tanon, nang bar/ranahan bhan mak. Khon Holland, Sweden, Norway, Russia,Germany, Spain, Italy hout yea cipnatee . Poochie, pooying hen, seng, booah. E- Ang ? Chop khon cow chia, poo English! Thouk wan me khon poo man can ret me pawat foun. Mia challat!!
Merci Elisabeth, mais je crains que votre avis ne serve pas à grand’chose. Les dés sont pipés au départ.
On voit bien la “double contrainte” (du genre : “dis-moi spontanément que tu m’aimes”). On doit répondre à une question sur la langue anglaise… mais seuls ceux qui ont des facilités à la pratiquer peuvent aisément répondre et s’étaler sur des pages et des pages pour saper les objections de leurs contradicteurs.
C’est pourquoi je reviens rarement écrire ici.
Ce n’est pas ici qu’on pourra influencer le devenir des règles linguistiques dans l’UE (qui par ailleurs pourrait bien éclater dans la décennie à venir!).
On fera évoluer les choses en s’adressant aux “activistes”, aux militants, aux partis, syndicats, organisations qui défendent le peuple et prennent peu à peu conscience du scandale d’un “TINA linguistique” qui favorise toujours les mêmes…
La popolo, unuiĝinta, neniam estos venkita.
Let me emphasise once more. The most widespread language used throughout European countries, and beyond was the Celtic language. This language remains the native language of my home country of Scotland. Almost no one in Scotland learns this language as it considered to be of little practical use, as it cannot be understood by people in other countries. It will therefore be very difficult to convince the people of Scotland of the importance of the use of indigenous European languages. A German man who spoke German to a girl working in a bar in Thailand was given the reply. ” I am a Thai girl, I am not German, so speak to me in English” I repeat, ” I am a Thai girl……..so speak to me in Emglish”
Vilhecjo: Quote” I am a Thai girl…… so speak to me in English” The western Caucasian language is apparently English. The quotation are not words of mine. I,m just the messenger.
Je n’ai pas la maladie de parler anglais beaucoup trop difficile pour ceux qui ne sont pas anglais; on me l’a imposé, je n’ai jamais pu parler cette langue ni la comprendre, ni la lire, ma corvée l’Espéranto, même pas un an. Même pour les Asiatiques c’est plus facile que l’anglais, d’abord qui a mis son veto contre l’Espéranto ; la société des nations voulait le faire enseigner Une langue nationale n’a pas à être internationale et être imposée à ceux qui ne sont pas natifs de ce pays, l’anglais ou une autre. Car les langues nationales sont très difficiles pour ceux qui n’en sont pas nés. A voir le nombre d’anglophones qui ont appris l’Espéranto ces derniers jours sont nombreux, cela prouve bien que c’est plus facile que la leur, le nombre de pays où est parlé l’Espéranto augmente et le nombre d’Espérantophones également. Les Espérantophones savent qu’ils ont la meilleure solution, ce sont les politiciens et des ignorants qui ont des préjugés stupides qui sont contre, c’est la langue qui ne porte pas préjudice aux langues maternelles, c’est l’anglais qui tue. Pourquoi êtes vous contre une langue qui n’a jamais fait de mal à personne et pour une langue qui tue, tueuse de langues et une cause d’accidents d’avions et d’incidents, il faut changer cela, ne pas continuer avec l’anglais, une alternative est nécessaire.
E-Ang? Poo Sow keeyan nan. Yea sip natee ang not book jotmai. Thouk khon kow who-ah. Koon keeyan man can, mia neng eye. Quam kit teedee bie rhong reyan, reyan English. OK Mai?
Je suis tout à fait d’accord avec ce que vous dites, Madame Lambert.
fr: Entretemps nous ne savons toujours pas, qui a lancé cette discussion en anglais.
L’auteur n’a pas le courage de se présenter.
en: Meanwhile we still do not know who started this discussion in English.
The author does not have the courage to come forward.
eo: Intertempe ni ankoraŭ ne scias, kiu lanĉis tiun diskuton en la angla.
La aŭtoro ne kuraĝas prezenti sin.
nl: Ontertussen weten we nog altijd niet, wie deze discussie in het Engels gesteld heeft.
De steller durft zich niet kenbaar maken.
eo: Kaj jen aparte por s-ro Ronnie en transkribita laosa lingvo:
phuakhao naikhana diav nyangbohuva phuthi dai loemton kansonthana ni nai phasaangkid
phukhian bomikhuaam kahan thichamathoeng tona
A M. Alejandro Carlos
Vous savez écrire 2 phrases en Français donc vous le comprenez. Le Français est tout de même plus beau que l’anglais. D’abord les espérantistes ne sont pas des fanatiques, ce sont des gens pour la paix et l’amitié entre les peuples, la bonne compréhension par une langue facile. Il est vrai que l’anglais imposé dans l’aviation en 1951 en est une des principales causes d’accidents et d’incidents. Lisez “Des inconvénients de l’anglais dans la communication aéronautique” par un ingénieur américain. Moi même ayant travaillé 39 ans dans l’aviation, je peux le confirmer. En 1977, 587 tués à Ténérife à cause de cela, à Moscou le pilote de l’Airbus et le contrôleur russe n’ont pas réussi à se comprendre avec l’anglais, c’est une passagère moscovite qui a fait atterrir l’avion, à Osaka le contrôleur japonais s’est adressé en Anglais au pilote chinois qui n’a pas compris, et aussi ça a eu lieu à Paris qui ne se sont pas compris, les problèmes de communication entre pilotes et aiguilleurs du ciel sont fréquents, j’ai toute la liste : allo, allo, je ne comprend pas, répétez, aie,aie. Il y en a tous les jours. Je ne vous dirais pas celui en Corse, à Londres et ailleurs pour des problèmes de communication et compréhension ; des ingénieurs aéronautiques se sont plaints que cette langue leur pose des problèmes. Il est prouvé dans de nombreux rapports que l’Espéranto serait sécuritaire dans l’aviation et d’autres domaines, ce dont les instances sont autistes : les ingénieurs rêvent de l’Espéranto, l’Espéranto est une langue comme une autre reconnue par l’ONU et recommandée par l’UNESCO, ce sont les politiciens qui sont des imbéciles ne voulant pas arranger leur peuple mais le contraire, et la dictature de la commission européenne, imposer une langue impériale est une dictature et difficile. Je suis espérantiste mais pas fanatique, j’utilise l’Espéranto lors de mes voyages comme j’ai fait en Chine, au Brésil, à Cuba, en Allemagne, en Italie, Pologne, Russie, Irlande, Croatie, Bosnie, Angleterre, Canada, Etats-Unis, Danemark. J’en informe les gens ignorants. Ceux qui courent à l’anglais et défendent cette langue sont fanatiques car ils veulent l’imposer à tous et ils poussent leurs concitoyens à mépriser leur langue propre, c’est le cas en France, nos dirigeants sont anglomanes. Mais moi j’utilise très bien l’Espéranto à l’étranger dans le monde entier. Ma camarade étant dans l’aviation aussi m’a dit que leur professeur leur a dit que l’anglais pouvait causer des accidents d’avions, il y a longtemps que je lui ai dit, elle comprend maintenant combien c’est difficile. L’Espéranto aussi est une belle langue mieux que l’anglais, les imbéciles de politiciens imposant l’Espéranto dans les écoles, les enfants ne voudront plus entendre parler de l’anglais tellement l’anglais leur déplait, ils n’en veulent pas, je préfère l’espéranto que l’anglais, je n’ai jamais aimé l’anglais, horrible
Si quelqu’un peut traduire ce que j’ai écrit pour ce monsieur, je le remercie si vraiment il ne parle pas français
Ok, I bow to the wisdom of the European language advocates. A Dutchman, a Norwegian, a Spaniard, an Italian, a Romanian, a Frenchman and a Greek are having a conversation and they all contribute to the discussion in their own respective countries,s indigenous language, and everyone in the conversation understands and thinks that it is a good idea. Additionally, people from China, Kuwait, Pakistan, Maylasia, South Africa and Alaska are watching the discussion with interest, as it is being broadcast to them by television. Ok, now I understand. Sorry for being so slow to understand this outstandingly brilliant concept.
What,s the difference between watching a European person in the process of communication and watching a domesticated canine in the process of communication. It is possible to understand what the domesticated canine wants by observing its expression.
Has anyone considered the following:
The text of this website article, to which people are responding, is written in English, because it has to be so that people can understand it.
People are adding comment in languages other than English, but they would not be doing this if the text of the article was written in a European language. If it was written in a different European language and not English, then the people who do not like using English would not be adding any comments because they would not understand the article, because it was not written in English.
So, in order for people to comment that they do not like using English, the article needs to be written in English, so that they can understand it and complain about using English.
Another contributor to this website has described the history of the word moron. I would not be so in polite.
My last call (in English): WHO launched the question “Should English be the only official language of the EU?” on “Debating Europe”?
The answer to this simple question does not require hundreds or thousands of lines.
Is my English so bad, that the author can not understand my simple question?
The organisation “debatingeurope” itself seems to be the origin of the question. The website gives the E-Mail contact addresses of its team members. I think that to get an answer to your question, you would probably to ask them directly by E-Mail. The director of the Website has an E-Mail address of adammyman@debatingeurope.eu I did not see if there was a full stop in his adress between first and second names, so perhaps better to try both alternatives.
Thank you, dear John. I immediatly sent a message to this person.
Dear John,
both addresses are invalid. :-(
it seems there is only https://www.debatingeurope.eu/contact/
Thank you, dear Robert.
I sent a message in Dutch, an official language of the EU.
If you are lucky, perhaps you may receive a reply in the official EU languages of Estonian, or Latvien.
Very witty, John.
Should English be the ONLY OFFICIAL language of E.U.?
Official language with 25 other national languages : yes;
ONLY?
Of course NO,
Sicher NEIN,
Bien sûr NON,
CertamenteNO,
Seguro NO ,
Certo NAO
Tutcerte NE
Actually Hungary is not doing so badly when it comes to speaking English. The French, the Portuguese, the Italians, the Slovaks and a whole bunch of other nations are doing a lot worse. As I discovered through personal experience, Hungary is an extremely English-friendly place compared to France. The only reason why France might do better in foreing language polls is because a lot of people can speak some level of Italian and Spanish, but if you know the first thing about those languages, you’ll realize that it’s low picking for the French to learn them…
no! …
E mais nada , não????????????????????????????
We should study languages . W e could not communicate in one language… it is crazy the idea it self… I write in English now, becuase it is the most studied language. but, we should understand, Swedish, Basic Estonian, Spanish/French/italian/Portughese/Romanian is basic a huge dictionary, and the some language… Either for Check/Slovenian etc…
We can handle more than 7 language, if we improve our way to teach Language,
other wise in 20 years, we will debate about how many European are not able to speak 2 language etc…
and it is not about UK, or Portugal .. if they speak only one language,
it is about EUropean People . HOw it is possible that they speak only 3 language, when there are more than 20?
HOw can we improve this number?
You can improve the number by making the number smaller. There are hundreds of languages in the world. For all human beings to learn all of them is a total nonsense. The function of a language is to allow understandable communication between people. When this is needed between people who are fromdifferent geographical areas then this is practically achieved by having a single universally understood language.
That is precisely what would be achieved by everyone learning the uniquely logical, precise, clear and easy to learn NEUTRAL language Esperanto. Western Europe benefitted hugely during the Renaissance because educated people across that part of the continent had a common second language (Latin) which was used for all international communication and which enabled discoveries and inventions to communicated across western Europe without any need for error-prone translations. A “single universally understood language” would in effect be a new Latin for both Europe and the whole world, but it needs to be NEUTRAL just as Latin was in pre-Reformation western Europe.
Language is only communication? … what about emotions? what about language which express things which are not possible to translate in other language?
Sorry Framptono, Latin was never a neutral language, it dominance started with an Empire and continued with a Church. The same way that Esperanto is not a neutral language, just the vehemence of the pro Esperanto activism makes it not neutral. Activism that in most cases is just a thinly disguised anti British, anti American and anti English activism; if the activism is politically influenced then it is not neutral. Additionally, it will have to be taught to every single person in the planet since there are very few people who already speak it.
There are many very good languages that are more suited to become a World Lingua Franca than Esperanto. Spanish is one of them with more that 400 million speakers with more than 300 millions native speakers. French and German also have more speakers than Esperanto, many more. But of all the languages the better positioned is English with more than 500 millions speakers (or closer to a billion according to some sources) with almost 400 of them natives.
But the number of speakers is not the only thing that makes it appealing but the fact that almost all of the World knowledge is already in English, a great deal originally accumulated in that language and the rest having been translated already. With Esperanto not only we will have to teach it to every person in the World but we will also have to translate all the accumulated knowledge to Esperanto since very little of it have already been translated. And please, do not reply that 1,000 or 10,000 or 50,000 books have already been translated because that does not come even close to what would be needed.
And Sinatra, yes, one language is all that is needed to communicate and to express everything that every person in the World have to say or to communicate. Your namesake only used English and a great portion of the World population know who he was just by mentioning his name. The same emotions that are expressed in French and in Spanish and in German can be expressed in Latin, Greek, Chinese, Japanese and English. So we only have to decide in one language. Unfortunately learning several languages is very difficult and in most cases very expensive and very few people become really fluent in six, seven or more language. Besides, what can be done if one person speaks six or seven languages and the other also speak six or seven languages but not the same ones. I will tell you that probably it will not be a problem since when one person learn several languages almost invariably one of them is English. They can communicate and express their emotions in English.
Regarding how easy and practical will it be to implement the use of one language as a Lingua Franca, well although Spanish is spoken by almost half a billion people and French, German and other languages are also spoken by a great deal of people, English is the most spoken language in the World after Chinese, it is a lot easier to learn than Chinese and is learnt more frequently by more people, voluntarily than Chinese. And to make things easier for the adoption of English as the World Lingua Franca most international communications are already carried out in English. International Commerce, Science, Economic, Financial and Social matters are also carried out in English.
And the cherry on top is that English is the language most people in the World want to learn voluntarily, if not because they like the language at least because they see certain usefulness in the time and money investment required. And if you as other Esperanto advocates postulate that Esperanto should be taught for free, that it should be taught in every school as a second language since the earlier grades and that its learning should be mandatory, imagine what could be accomplished if the same is done with English.
HAHAHAHAHAHA that must be a joke! Actually a good one! 😂
Es que es de coña, vaya. Demasiado que se impone el inglés como lenguaje para textos científicos como encima querer hacerlo “lengua oficial de Europa”. Insisto, de coña. No pienso aceptar una medida así, en el hipotético caso de que apareciera.
In the meantime english is nearly used all over the continent as basic communication!! Also all nations learned english at first at school. But never the french people will accept einglish official as main language. I think all others will accept!!
French do not count!
Having english in each public documents (in small letters, in adiction to the main national language), having english description of all produced and commercialized products in EU, would make exponencially boost to the EU economy!
It is already – a globalized language.
I thoughts it was ?!?!
Not ..but as a ‘second foreign’ can be useful !! ;)
hard to believe it such a stupid question…
I will prefer Italian! haha.. but now days everybody speaks english.. is somehow the “way” of comunication between people from other countries.
Who is Epiranto?
Naravno da ne.
for sure
Yes
yes
Definitely Not! We are all studying English, in order to be understood by the anglophones. But this will mean that the anglophones will be lazy and won’t try to lead another than their mother tongue English… It is not fair…
And we are supposed to be equal in the European Union…
English is official in the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other countries…
By making it official in the European Union, this would mean that Europe will be turned into another English Colony…
Moreover, there are many other European languages, which are more beautiful than English…
England never had any colonies. It was the UK that had them. The indigenous language of Scotland is the ancient language of the Celts. Most of Europe was Celtish. If you want to have a language that all Europeans can understand and talk to each other in, and it should be a European language, then logic dictates that the obvious choice is Gaelic, the language of the Celts, who were the historical main tribes across most European countries. The only slight problem though is that the only country that has kept it as it,s indigenous language, Scotland, has almost no one who has bothered to learn it because it is not of much use in being able to communicate with other human beings on the planet. The same reason why people in Scotland tend not to learn many other European languages, because they fail in the primary function of a language, to allow you to communicate with other human beings.
No! Non ! Nein !
Don’t care, lige glade
It makes sense to have one go-to language that everyone can turn to and know that they can use and be understood, and this is what English already provides, especially with the influx of new arrivals from the Muslim world, who use English to be understood by native Europeans.
English is also a good choice as it is half Germanic, half Latin in its vocabulary, thereby bridging the linguistic divide in Europe.
Certainly Yes
I prefer Latin.
Deutsch!
I think every language is important to know our culture and english is universal language..!
Unis dans la diversité !
Can’t we just go with the most spread language in the world and keep that for interrnational language and have our native tounge preserved. But I guess for some people would see it as a threat to their culture. Thing is if people actually able to communicate with you they will be even more interested in your culture and learn some of your language also. And no I’m not Britt or from USA I’m a swede
Totally agree with you. How on earth can someone be able to appreciate a culture of a civilisation if the history of that civilisation, and their traditions, cannot be understood, because they cannon to be translated into a commonly understood language. If Ancient Greek history was only available in Greek, and translating it was banned, then most of the world would be denied the knowledge of Ancient Greece. People who argue otherwise are not unwise, they are just displaying the typical European attitude regarding the languages of Europe
ONE common language of course I would help the EU however it could as easily be French or German not necessarily english in my view. English is a world-wide second language but it is the “common” way to communicate that is the point that would help the EU as a whole.
Why? Just try to learn as many languages as you can. Each language is beautiful and it’s great when you can connect with someone in their native language.
Why not even Chinese or Russian or German… :) :) :) ??? And, why it should be english, as far as UK will even go out from EU ???
Why should Europe have just one language? Why English? Certainly not!
I don’t see how this affects economy in any way.. Besides, the english language is already admitted to be a global language of communication.. And it didn’t make any difference..
Si quelqu’un veut bien traduire car je n’ai pas la maladie de baragouiner anglais beaucoup trop difficile pour ceux qui ne sont pas anglais. je connais bien la difficulté de l’anglais, sa prononciation difficile pour les non anglais, les inconvénients de cette langue et les dégâts entre autre dans l’aviation, anglais imposé en 1951 ne convient pas à tous les pilotes non angloétatsuniens car trop compliqué pour eux. L’anglais n’est pas la bonne solution mais une des plus mauvaises. Il faut changer cette politique que l’on vous met dans la tête, et vous suivez sans savoir ce que vous faites. Les angloétatsuniens veulent tuer toutes les langues et cultures pour être les maîtres du monde. Une alternative et une autre politique serait nécessaire et facile pour tout le monde qui ne tue pas les langues et cultures mais les préserve, il faut que l’Europe adopte la langue internationale Espéranto, où personne ne serait avantagé, langue recommandée par l’UNESCO, l’Espéranto est parlé dans le monde entier par des millions de gens, la plus facile des langues vivantes ; pour cela, il faut des décisions politiques, et que les politiciens cessent d’être des imbéciles comme c’est le cas. Le cas en France et ailleurs et 95 % des gens y ont un avantage.
L’Espéranto ne tue pas et n’a jamais fait de mal à personne, l’anglais tue et en fait. Tue les langues et cultures comme en France où français non respecté, anglais à la place du français. L’Espéranto serait préférable à l’anglais dans tous les domaines et pourrait éviter des accidents. Donc, moi je dis non à l’anglais. Mais sur ce site, les gens critiquent ce qu’ils ne connaissent pas et qu’ils n’ont pas essayé, avant de critiquer on essaye et on s’informe. La plupart du temps les gens ne s’informent de rien, ils ne savent rien que ce que leurs dirigeants , les médias, la télévision leur rabache tous les jours qui est bien, sans se rendre compte qu’on leur ment beaucoup et on ne dit pas toujours les choses. L’anglais n’est pas facile, coûte beaucoup d’argent, l’espéranto serait plus économique pour l’Europe que l’anglais et pour les contribuables donc préférable à l’anglais. Moi je dis stop à l’anglais. Arrêtez de vous mettre de l’anglais dans le crâne. Si quelqu’un comprend le français, peut il traduire dans la langue impériale. Je le remercie.
Je comprends le français, mais je ne suis pas capable de traduire votre message en anglais, qui est une langue tro difficile pour ceux, qui n’aiment pas se ridiculiser dans cette langue.
Mi ja komprenas la francan, sed mi ne kapablas traduki vian mesaĝon en la anglan, kiu estas lingvo tro malfacila por tiuj, kiuj ne ŝatas ridindigi sin en tiu lingvo.
And I am not interested in translating it, This is a debate about the English language, in English. So Lambert, if you want your opinion considered you may as well state it in the language the conversation is being carried on.
But don’t worry, we understand why you do not propose French as the alternative, despite apparently speaking it correctly. The language and its pronunciation are so difficult for those who are not native that it will be ridiculous to propose such a thing and additionally the sound, French sounds so ugly like if people talking it have a cold and their mouth full at the same time. Unfortunately when you are born into a language you do not have a choice but those of us who do prefer English. It is easier to learn, easier to pronounce and it is a very musical language. And Esperanto, “forget about it”. It is simply irrelevant.
It seems plausible that French could possibly be used as an International language by many African countries, if they were to form an economic union amoungst themselves. What I find rather rediculous is any idea that it should be a unifying European language, when it is principally a language of African countries. What I have always found to be both obscure and annoying was being forced to undertake language lessons in French, whilst in school in the UK, given that very few people from the UK ended up living in African countries, what a rediculous waste of time it was. Also, as it has already been pointed out, French is a very difficult language. I recall thinking whilst being forced to learn it in school, why does it sound so vastly different to how it is written. I observed that for many, if not most words, the technique appeared to be to only pronounce the first half of a written word, but not the second half of it. At least with languages such as German and Norwegian, a written word sounds very close to how it would be read out, if you did not know the language. If there are still French people around who believe in French being an international language, then they can realise their vision by living in Africa.
Dear John,
I made some small changes in your text as a reply. I hope you will find it witty:
What I find rather rediculous is any idea that English should be a unifying European language, when it is principally a language of England and North American countries. What I have always found to be both obscure and annoying was being forced to undertake language lessons in English, whilst in school in Belgium, given that very few people from Belgium ended up living in North America countries, what a rediculous waste of time it was. Also, as it has already been pointed out, English is a very difficult language. I recall thinking whilst being forced to learn it in school, why does it sound so vastly different to how it is written. I observed that English has at least 24 vowel sounds but only 6 signs to write them. So ea is pronounced not the sama way in hart, bear, ear, early,… (By the way, in Esperanto all characters are always exactly pronounced the same way. And it has only 5 vowels). There are still English people around who believe in English being an international language, then they can realise their vision by living in North America.
It was not a waste of time after all, not really. You have been able to communicate with a lot of English speaking people. Had you only learned the official languages of your country that communication would have been impossible. You see your parents have great foresight when they made you study the evil language and prepare you for the future, when they knew you were going to need English to talk to a lot of people (not from Belgium).
And about your criticism of the difficulties of the English language, please talk to me about French, Dutch and German. Are they really easier than English, do they sound the same way they are written, do all the symbols have only one sound. What about the auxiliaries the auxiliaries.
And Leo you have been around this debate long enough to have seen the following before. English is not only spoken in the US, the UK, Canada and Australia. Actually is it NOT the OFFICIAL language in three of those countries, most notably the US and the UK. There are quite a few more countries with English is spoken and where it is their official language that countries were the same is true with Esperanto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_entities_where_English_is_an_official_language
Of course, you are welcome to correct me by sending me a similar list for the Esperanto language.
And it is not like there is a group of people actually trying to avoid Esperanto being learned, they do not have to. In over 150 years of existence less people have learned Esperanto than the amount of new people starting to learn English every year.
Again your preference for Esperanto is noted. (And irrelevant, the people of the World have the last word, and so far they are going for English)
I recall a few years ago, walking through the enclosed gangway that lead onto a commercial aeroplane embarking upon an international flight. You may have noticed that in many countries of the world, the walls of these corridors are often covered with adverts for the HSBC banking organisation. One of these adverts stated that at any point in time, there are more people in China who are learning English, than there are people living in England. The advert had a slogan under it saying that HSBC was the world,s bank. The world is learning the global international language of English, and the region that it actually comes from, Europe, is full of people who would rather speak their own isolated indigenous languages. Do all of the people who contribute to this website see how rediculous others from around the world view this as being? The Chineese learn English to engage with the rest of the world, and take sight seeing trips to European countries to visit the region of the world from where the international language that they have learned comes from, and what do they find? No one there speaks it unless they have to. That these countries make international press statements in languages not understood by the international community. That items in supermarkets have packaging not written in the international language. The ASEAN economic union it appears, from what can be worked out, will be using English as their official language of their economic union, yet here we are discussing whether or not it should be the language of the economic union which has English as an originating language. It would be comical, if it was not so rediculous. And all because of people,s silly arrogance in not being able to face up to the reality of the modern world.
John, do not worry. While the Europeans are squabbling about how bad English is as a International second language and about how good would Esperanto be as such, the rest of the World is learning English, voluntarily, and there will be a day in which they will realize that everybody speaks English but them. Ironic, is it not? Then they will be forced to learn the language just to get by, or not, maybe they choose to isolate themselves from the World rather than speak the language. You can expect anything from the Europeans.
Dear John,
here are the words with “ea” in your text:
learned, speaks, ASEAN, appears, reality
Very logical spelling, indeed… Hea, hea, hea, hah, hah, hah!
Hi Leo, would you please explain to me the spelling logic in French, German and Dutch.
At the same time would you also explain why it is more logical, according to you, to learn Esperanto, a language that is not the official or de facto language of any country and is only spoken (in most cases not very well) by less than two million out of 7 thousand million than to learn a language that is spoken by over on billion people and that is the Official or de facto language in more than 80 countries.
That logic escapes me.
French is official in 29 countries, on all continents. It too is an international language, whether you like it or not. It is an insufferable arrogance, not to speak of ignorance, to describe English as “THE international language”. No official body has ever proclaimed it as such, nor ever will.
Seán Ó Riain. Of course French is an international language, it is spoken in all the countries that were colonized by France, where the French forced the native to learn French instead, and then you toll your bells about English having been imposed by force. Mind you, I am not criticizing France, that was the way things were done at that time but it really irks me when you fill your mouth with righteousness and start yelling “Américains impérialistes, d’imposer leur langue par la force”. The US never had the empire that France once had, and that was conquered with their armies. Of course, I am not saying the Americans are saints, they are not, but neither are the rest.
But even in those countries where the official language is French, even in those countries, people are learning English. French more than anybody else are red with envy because there was a time in which everybody thought French was going to be it, “La langue internationale du monde entire”, but no, soon people started to realize that French people were not very appreciative of their effort in learning the language and they kept looking them down their collective French noses because those others did not pronounced French like a native Frenchman. And it was called the language of diplomacy! Ja, the nerve!
What I find so annoying is the European attitude. Nearly all Europeans realise that in order to communicate with others, they require to speak English, but they dislike it so intensely.If they could agree amoungst themselves what alternative common language they should speak to each other in, then their perspective might hold some validity. But that is not the case. There is little agreement, nearly all proposing their own language. Those who do not like to speak in English speak in their own country,s language in telivision programmes broadcast to other European nations, without the other European nations being able to understand what is being said. The leaders of France and Germany, just for example must be very clever people, but just how daft is it to make announcements to hundreds of millions of people who have no idea what they are saying. Even dumb animals communicate in ways that their fellow creatures can understand. Why can’t the leaders of European nations manage the same?
English being the “Lingua Franca” is pure history. If the Grande y Felicísima Armada Española or La Grande Armée had won or Wilhelm II of Germany and Nicholas II of Russia had not stopped to hunting together the “strongest” language, the “winner” would be Spanish or French or German in West Europe and we would not even hear about unimportant countries like Poland, Estonia or Lithuania (just examples!) neither about their languages or unique culture. If you want to be an expert in computer technology you have to learn at least 4-5 years at a University to learn its coded and simplified language on your mother tongue. If you go abroad to learn you need to learn another language (5-10 years). I don’t understand why is it odd in the world of simplified, coded languages to learn a general simplified, coded language for common use that is at least 5-10 times easier than to learn a modern language. If you don’t like Esperanto you can find others like Interlingua or Ido, or a team of linguists can work out another one. But why, if Esperanto is good enough? Until political (or rather historical) dominance or “we are more in number” points of view reign there will never be a consensus… Or let’s go back to Latin! I wouldn’t mind it! PLEASE DON’T SAY THAT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO LEARN!!!
Toni you most definitely have a point; you are just making it incorrectly. It is true that if the things you say could have happened had indeed happened then we would probably be speaking one of those languages, but they did not happen. The Allied Forces won the War (mostly the American and the Brits, and that is why most of Europe hate them so much, they did what you should have done but could not do), and other people won other wars. That is indeed History and should be studied as such in school. Esperanto was a better idea 100 years ago, and had things been different it probably would be a good idea today. But things are what they are and there is no use wanting them to have been different.
It may be true that Esperanto may be easier to learn than English, much easier, but English had a much earlier head start. It has been around much longer than Esperanto, there are over 400 billion native speakers, and over 100 billion speakers of it as a second language (That is over 7%, although it probably really is in the 10 to 15%. What percentage of the World population speaks Esperanto?) Most commerce, financial, scientific and social activities are already carried out in English in more than half the World, if not in all at least a good portion of it. How much is done in Esperanto?
Now, Esperantists propose that Esperanto be taught since the earlier grades, compulsorily, in all public and private schools until the higher grades, for FREE. How many Esperanto teachers are there? On the other hand, if the same is done with English, then what? and there are enough English teachers to carry it out! Esperantists claim that Esperanto being so easy to learn and having this characteristic (?) of helping to learn other languages once you know it makes it ideal to preserve linguistic and cultural integrity. That is so naive, not to call it downright stupid. I am going to learn Spanish because it makes learning Portuguese, Italian, French or Romanian easier, or I will learn German because it makes learning English easier or vice versa. If you want to learn a particular language go for it, it is a waste of time and money to learn a different one {not necessarily easier} in order to learn the one you want, moreover if it is not going to be of any use.
They also propose that Esperanto teaching should be FREE. Well if we did everything Esperantists want done with Esperanto with English the World would be a much better place to live in. Once everybody in the world speaks English at the native level (having been taught for free, compulsorily, in all schools in all the counties of the World, from kindergarten to college) then the Americans and the Brits and the Canadians and the Australians, and all the other that already speak English, will lose that advantage Esperantists are claiming they are going to get if English becomes the World Lingua Franca (which it already is).
Let’s teach English in all schools, private and public, from kindergarten to college, in all countries of the World, for FREE, and everybody in World will then have the same footing, at least language wise. That is the point you should be making, it makes a lot more sense, don’t you thing? Native speaking is overrated, it is well known there are millions of native speakers, in all languages of the World, that DO NOT speak the language well, to say the least.
“Wilhelm II of Germany and Nicholas II of Russia had not stopped to hunting together” …had not stopped hunting… (I correct myself! It is not as humiliating for a non native speaker having 6 diplomas as to be ridiculed by a native English having not even a GCSE… Or would anyone find it fair…?)
errāre hūmānum est. But the wise is ready to rectify.
Do not worry, I make far more mistakes with far fewer Diplomas!
I believe that Espiranto was deposed in 1957 by an opposing military Junta. Whilst ther is an election looming in Argentina, I can’t see him making a come back now.
He is not interested in going back, he is living off the money he stole, commuting between New York, Toronto, Sidney and London. And nowadays, he only speaks English.
Is there anything like this “http://www.ted.com/tedx/events/3906” going on with Esperanto
RE à Carlos Pourquoi apprennent ils l’anglais, c’est parce que l’on ne leur laisse pas le choix, on leur impose de force. Or, le congrès d’espéranto a eu lieu à Lille dernière semaine de juillet 2015 avec 84 pays représentés, le journaliste a dit que l’espéranto est parlé dans le monde entier, sur les 5 continents par des millions de personnes, cela va en augmentant, donc plus de 2 millions ; le fait est l’ignorance de la population car les médias les laissent dans l’ignorance mais l’Espéranto est préférable dans l’aviation et dans les organisations internationales plutôt que l’anglais qu’on leur impose de force et qui pose beaucoup de problèmes à ceux qui ne sont pas angloétatsuniens ; quand on parle de l’Espéranto à des gens qui savent ce que c’est, ils disent c’est cela qu’il nous faudrait, les enfants disent c’est cela qu’il faut apprendre à l’école et non l’allemand, l’espagnol et l’anglais, etc 90 % des gens y auraient un avantage, c’est de la faute des imbéciles qui gouvernent qui veulent avantager les angloétatsuniens qui veulent supprimer et tuer toutes les langues pour être les maîtres du monde à eux seuls et les moutons de panurge suivent sans rien comprendre et sans se rendre compte ce qu’ils font ; l’espéranto ne tue pas et n’a jamais fait de mal à personne, l’anglais oui, il y a eu des morts dans des avions du à cela, des malades irradiés dans les hôpitaux, des suicides en Inde et un en Chine, l’anglais est dangereux et tue, c’est quelque chose que vous êtes borné comme cela et que vous ne comprenez rien du tout, comme les politiciens tous plus ou moins pourris qui ne veulent rien comprendre vous plumant à raison de milliards par an pour engraisser les angloétatsuniens à raison de milliards, l’Espéranto c’est le contraire n’avantage personne et n’engraisse personne et fairait économiser des milliards à l’Europe et aux contribuables si les gens n’étaient pas aussi idiots et ignorants.
Lambert, again, if you want to participate in an English debate about the English language you could do it in English.
You can say anything you want but you will have to do it in English if you want a response. You can yell until you are hoarse if you want, people will not pay attention to what you have to say unless they understand you. In this case I just choose to ignore what you say.
I have given enough reasons of why Esperanto is irrelevant compared with the English language. You, and the other Esperanto advocates, have not given enough reasons to the contrary. You only say, and repeat ad nauseam, that Esperanto is easier and more neutral. Well, people all over the World are choosing English over Esperanto. That is what makes Esperanto irrelevant. Not my opinion simply a fact.
Who would believe that French was the language of diplomacy just a few years ago if Frenchs do not have the good manners of responding in the same language they are addressed. And do not tell me you do not understand English, because I am going to be really flattered if you go to the trouble of using Google Translate to read what I have to say. Unfortunately you will misunderstand most of it.
Alejandro, it is very possible to be able to follow a discussion in a language, that is, to be able to understand the gist of it in writing, without being able to express oneself in it. I can understand just about any written material in Spanish, but if I were restricted to speaking it in a discussion, that would be very restrictive, as my Spanish-speaking ability is minimal.
And this just further demonstrates the point, that this is a discussion which affects all Europeans, yet those who don’t speak English (and there are plenty of them) are barred from the discussion, according to you. “In this case I just choose to ignore what you say.” But by that logic, you ignore all input from all non-English-speaking Europeans, whose opinion is just as valid as yours.
C’est tout à fait vrai, Elisabeth. Le français est une langue internationale, et la langue officielle de 29 pays. Je trouve arrogant et ignorant celui qui ne comprend pas le français mais qui veut imposer son mauvais anglais à tout le monde. Au lieu d’exprimer son opinion ennuyeuse sans cesse, il pourrait rentre à l école s’ eduquer. Et essayer d’écrire l’anglais avec un peu moins de ses erreurs agaçants.
An Englishman, a Frenchman, a German and a Dutchman are having a conversation together.
The Englishman says ” Well ectually ( actually) when oiy ( I ) make love to my wyaf ( wife ) . Etfa woods ( meaning ” Afterwords” ) , befoh ( before ) going out the daw ( door ), I sprinkle raeuwse (rose) petals over her and gently blow them off her body, and she goes wild”
The Frenchman replies : ” Ah wee wee, cee fcheench man will Ouse cee watear fchom cee garleek and spchinkle it ovear her bodee an haw, haw, haw, she go exquiseet.
The German adds : ” Ach so, ze house Frau ya? Ven ve do et, I tickle de feet of de Frauline vit de frankfurter an ho, ho, ho, she is smiling and laughing. Next thing I have de big beeah and de herring salad.
Then the Dutchman adds : ” Oh, we chuu talk about zee smoke an a poke? After I do it, I clean my coke on dee window curtain and dee hooka go fakin crazy.
Russian : sounds like a language created for human beings, no weird noises, just a very serious case of dyslexia.
Second take on Dutch : sounds more like a toothless Glasgegian speaking whilst being constantly punched in the face, rather than being kicked in the testicles.
Arabic : Sounds like Dutch after an expensive education.
Languages of the Philipines , oh yes, spoken about Spanish already. Africanise , said enough about Dutch.
If I may bring the focus of the debate back to the original proposal: That English should be the only official language of the EU:
There certainly is a place in the EU and indeed the world, for a common language of business, of diplomacy, of international travel and especially for commercial packaging and instructions for using products ranging from computers to household cleaners such as bleach, and most importantly for medicines. Does this mean that local languages should be abandoned? Not at all. Already many products give descriptions and instructions for use in a variety of languages. Companies do their market research and they target different countries, so they can ensure the instructions are in both the local languages and in English.
Why English? As many posters have pointed out, it is already the global language. This is the result of a combination of factors, factors which cannot easily be dismissed or displaced. For example, Hollywood is a massive enterprise which has taken generations and billions of dollars to build. The films that come out of Hollywood are shown worldwide and end up filling air space on countless TV channels, either dubbed or sub-titled in the local language. No other film industry has a comparable global impact on the spread of any other language.
The (often manufactured) popularity of Anglophone pop singers and groups means that young people learn the lyrics of their favourite songs in English. I’m sure that you can come up with many more examples of the international use of English. But for me the most important and destructive one is the spread of international English tests.
If a student wishes to study his or her chosen subject at one of the top universities, that student would be required to pass a test, created and delivered by teachers of English. What does an English teacher know of subjects such as Graphic Design, or Neuroscience, or Astrophysics? Why should people who have a passion and genius for these careers in their own language have to be proficient in English before they can claim a place among their peers in the best universities? As an English teacher, I know that when a student has a strong interest in a topic, they will do their English assignments with more enthusiasm. Students who have a passion for a specific field will learn whatever language they need to progress, so once they are studying among fellow- scholars who share their passion, the lingua franca, be it English or Chinese, will improve by leaps and bounds.
But they never get that far because the English test they have to pass costs a lot of money, and perhaps they do not have that linguistic aptitude. One result is that parents who can afford it send their children to English-medium schools, and often neglect their own native language to the extent that when their children grow up their first language is English. They marry, have children, to whom they speak exclusively English. Et voila! Those children cannot converse with their grandparents beyond a superficial level, and the wisdom of generations stops right there.
Yes, let’s have a lingua franca and at this point in history it is obviously English. But universities must stop requiring a pass grade in an irrelevant English test. Top universities such as Cambridge conduct interviews with prospective candidates who have done well at school. What is stopping other universities doing the same?
The EU should have English as one of the official languages, but give similar status to the European languages which satisfy criteria such as a minimum number of speakers and perhaps include the number of academic publications written in the language and translated into English and other languages. Maintenance of all languages is of paramount importance. Language evolves and exists in its own soil, climate, history, culture, its own environment. Farmers in the foothills of the Himalyas know everything about what their crops need to flourish, about which herbs can cure which ailments, and the local language is how they pass on their wisdom. This is a scenario that is repeated all over the world. (One poster suggests teaching the whole world English. Good luck with that!) Languages are important; when a language dies, we lose so much more than mere words.
Final point – bring back translation to the classroom. In my day we used to translate in the classroom when learning French, German, Spanish etc. This obvious learning tool seems to have disappeared, unless someone can show otherwise?
Alejandro Carlos writes:
“Why it is logical to learn Esperanto?”
Because Esperanto is an instrument made or build for the international communication Why use an hammer when you must put a screw into the wall?
Speak very well English needs 10 OOO hours of hard learning or six years of labour.
Speak at the same level Esperanto needs 1000 or 2000 funny hours of learning.
After 300 years of colonization of India, English is well speaking by one untill five por cent of the Indian population. Less than 1 until 10 % of the world population who is learning English as second language is able speak it very well. Put a screw into the wall with a hammer is not efficient. And the rapport between the world oligarchy who commands very well speak English and 90% of the World population is neo-colonial.
Of course, to “Put a screw into the wall with a hammer is not efficient” but it does the job.
Now we get to the heart of the matter. Politics! And this is where we really differ. I do not advocate English as the World language because it is spoken by the Americans, or the Brits, etc. but because is the easier and more practical way of creating a communication mean that everybody in the World could use to communicate with each other. Not because it is easier, not because it is better but because it is not a very difficult language to learn (despite what you may have to say), it is the most spoken language in the World (excluding Chinese which is only spoken in China to a great extent) and it is already positioned at an advantageous position, since most Commerce, Finance, Scientific and even Social matters are already in English (for whatever reasons it got to be that way, that is not the point of the debate). Most other languages in the World are more difficult to learn than English, nor do they offer the additional advantages English offers.
It is more practical and useful that Esperanto because a greater number of people already know, speak and understand English to a decent level. If we include those with a very limited knowledge the number is even greater. There is a greater interest in learning English and a larger number of people learning it than Esperanto, or any other language for that matter.
So, if we step away from the politics it does not matter how you look at it, English is the language better positioned to become the World Lingua Franca. If you continue looking at it from a political perspective, then the considerations change and one’s judgement becomes clouded.
Despite the too often mentioned, and in most cases without a solid justification, propaedeutic characteristic of Esperanto I do not ascribe to the idea of learning a simpler language, which is going to be of no use to me, to make it easier to learn another, which is the one I really want to learn. For me that is a waste of time.
I do not know about your opinion but my is that if you already know a little of a language it is easier to learn that language than to learn a different one. Having study English as a second language and having been a teacher of difficult subjects like Physics, Math and Chemistry it is my opinion that most people who never learn English despite going to school to learn it do not learn it simply because they do not really want to learn it. Most people who go to school to learn a language simply sit there listening to the teacher, night after night, day after day for months, sometimes for years, and expect to learn English that way, with no additional effort on their part. Wrong! You have to make an effort, you have to study, you have to practice. Like every student does who want to learn anything. Nobody gets to be Summa Cum Laude by sitting in class and looking at the teacher.
People complain about the advantage of Americans and Brits and all other native speakers of English because of their proficiency. Well they were not born with that proficiency. They went to school and learned the language like any foreigner (English is taught to native in pretty much the same way than to a foreigner), they just spent many more years doing it, like most native speakers do with their respective languages. German do not learn their language in 2 years. Nobody learns a language to the native or bilingual proficiency level in 2 years, not even natives. So stop complaining. Esperanto may be an easier language to learn but I am completely sure that if you want to attain a high level of proficiency it requires years of study and practice. There are simply too many words to learn the meaning of and to learn how to use them properly (and in the case of Esperanto, to invent). It requires time, regardless.
That said, 1000 at 20 hours a month (one hour a day, 5 days a week) is over four years of study (according to you for Esperanto). 10,000 hours at the same rate is over 40 years (again, according to you for English). Do you really think that it takes a regular person over forty years to learn English well?
Now, most English as a Second Language courses last about 3 years, add two more for increased proficiency and accent reduction. That makes 5 years. Compared to about twenty for a native to become really good at his or her language. Do the Math before responding!
If you want to look at it from the political perspective, then things get really complicated because we are not talking about language anymore.
Toni said: https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/english-official-language-eu/#comment-274515
“If the Grande y Felicísima Armada Española or La Grande Armée had won or Wilhelm II of Germany and Nicholas II of Russia had not stopped hunting together the “strongest” language, the “winner” would be Spanish or French or German in West Europe”
I responded:
“It is true that if the things you say could have happened had indeed happened then we would probably be speaking one of those languages, but they did not happen. The Allied Forces won the War (mostly the American and the Brits, and that is why most of Europe hate them so much, they did what you should have done but could not do), and other people won other wars. That is indeed History and should be studied as such in school. Esperanto was a better idea 100 years ago, and had things been different it probably would be a good idea today. But things are what they are and there is no use wanting them to have been different.”
But from that perspective things are not settled yet. China is rising and it is becoming a World power, so maybe twenty to fifty years from now we will be speaking Chinese, or Russian, never underestimate the Russians. History is not finished being written yet. What i really doubt is that we will be speaking Esperanto (or French, for sure not French).
“Esperanto may be an easier language to learn but I am completely sure that if you want to attain a high level of proficiency it requires years of study and practice. There are simply too many words to learn the meaning of and to learn how to use them properly (and in the case of Esperanto, to invent).”
But that’s just the point: it DOESN’T take years! It took me about a year and a half! Even if we go by my current level, I started learning E-o a few weeks short of two years ago. And now I am very proficient; anything I can do in English, I can just as well do in Esperanto. (I’m talking about language proficiency here, not whether or not I can read a printer manual, based on whether or not there is one to read!). I can talk about myself (who doesn’t like to do that?), chat with my friends, argue loud and long about religion and politics, write poetry, read novels, grammar books, and Wikipedia articles, write recipes for tasty desserts, and anything else I can do in English. And I have explained technical problems, and received tech support, in Esperanto. All without sounding awkward, as many non-native English speakers do. All without mentally translating to or from English. I just say what I have to say; I don’t think much about the grammar or vocab. And when I read, I don’t think much about the fact that the text is in Esperanto; I just absorb the information, or enjoy the story, depending on the kind of material, just as in English. All this after less than two years of study. In fact, I’m currently a language tutor on lernu.net! I don’t say this to show off. I’m not a genius or anything like that. In fact, my knack for languages seems to be lower than average. It’s just that Esperanto is so much more regular, consistent, and predictable than most languages, that it is a lot easier to learn, not just a little!
That is good to know Christa. At least you are a little more honest than most Esperanto advocates here who want you to believe you could be a complete Esperanto speaker in about a few weeks. Which is simply not possible.
Then again, your definition of very proficient may be different to mine. Very proficient in my understanding is not just to be able to comfortably talk about the weather and things like that but a thorough knowledge of the language that will allow you to understand almost any topic and be able to talk, write and read at the highest levels.
If that is your case, congrats! but for most normal people it will take longer. Now, do not get me wrong, I have never contended that Esperanto is easier to learn. My contention have always been that “it is not the most practical and beneficial solution” at this moment in time.
Ideals a very nice, although they not always turn out to be all that they were claimed to be and they do not work as promised most of the time, as History very annoyingly keeps reminding us. But the most important point of my argument has always been that presently most people will choose English over Esperanto, or even many other languages over Esperanto, because it will give them an immediate benefit, or at least the possibility of one, whereas Esperanto will not.
It is a lot easier to increase your income and well being by adding English to your skill set than to do the same with Esperanto. That is what people want. More money, better life. NOW
Esperanto may do that but years from now with English it will be a lot more immediate. Additionally, if you do with English everything that Esperanto advocates propose should be done with Esperanto the benefits will maximize and everybody will be much better, much sooner.
My proposition has always been that once we agree to make a language universal then it will be taught everywhere, at all level of education, from elementary to University, that will remove all the difficulties of learning English as a second language and will make everybody proficient like a native. Once everybody is learning English they will have a lot more people to practice with, understanding and pronunciation will improve everywhere, teaching methods will become more efficient and all of that could be achieved in just a few years.
And people learning English will have from the get go over a billion people to communicate with, millions of books to read and all the other benefits that are associated with knowing your own language and English. Forget the Americans and the Brits and all others, they will NOT have any advantage when everybody speak English well. And for those that say that it is very difficult to get to the proficiency level of the likes of Cameron, Obama, etc. they did not get there in one, three, five or ten years, it took them all their life, working very hard, to attain their level. And yes it is very difficult and it will be very difficult to attain a similar level in Esperanto, even if it is easier by comparison.
Simply put, Esperanto may be an easier, more regular and predictable language, BUT, and that is a big but, people go the English because it offers them more, NOW.
Now what you Esperanto advocates have to do is to explain to us, in simple and practical terms, without any idealism or politics, how can Esperanto, presently spoken by less than two million out of 7 thousand million, with most of those people not even knowing what Esperanto is, offer a better, easier, cheaper and quicker fix to our present day problems. I know you say it will solve all of our problems in about 100 years but I and millions of others are not going to be around then so that solution is no good to us.
Alejandro Carlos writes
“Why English is more difficult than Esperanto?”
1- The English alphabet is non phonetic (46 phonemes, 20 vowels).
The Esperanto ALPHABET is PHONETIC with 28 letters.
2- The English pronunciation is chaotic, elusive, impossible to standardize.
In Esperanto EACH LETTER IS PRONOUNCED AND ALWAYS REPRESENTS THE SAME SOUND.
“A well-educated Chinese reader today recognizes approximately 4,000 to 6,000 characters; approximately 3,000 characters are required to read a Mainland newspaper. The PRC government defines literacy among workers as a knowledge of 2,000 characters, though this would be only functional literacy. A large unabridged dictionary, like the Kangxi Dictionary, contains over 40,000 characters, including obscure, variant, rare, and archaic characters”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language#Writing
So 46 phonemes and 20 vowels are really not that many.
And they are a very happy people with and incredible culture. Irony. There are more new Chinese students starting to learn English every year than the total amount of Esperanto speakers in the whole World. Despite Esperanto being easier and English being confusing and all the other disadvantages you have enumerated. Go figure!
“Why English is more difficult than Esperanto?”
The English stress is undefinable, determined by usage; no standard can be established
The Esperanto STRESS is ALWAYS ON THE PENULTIMATE SYLLABLE
Granted Esperanto is easier to learn than English. What does that do? Does it change anything? Will there be more people willing to learn Esperanto just because I said it is easier than English? Is it going to make Esperanto more useful in today’s society?
Most words in English are accented in the penultimate syllable. Not all, though. There are many accented in a different syllable. So what? The variation in the position of the stressed syllable gives color and musicality to the language. Maybe that is why people do not like Esperanto. It is to monotonous, to boring.
“Why English is more difficult than Esperanto?”
Verbs: In English: 283 irregular verbs; in Esperanto: NONE.
Conjugation In English:variable root; in Esperanto: INVARIABLE
Well, just teach everybody Esperanto, sit down and wait. Ten years later you will have a very different language. The only problem is that people really do not want to waste their time learning Esperanto.
Comparative characteristics of English and esperanto.
IDENTIFICATION OF THE GRAMMATICAL FUNCTION:
English: confused, many grammatical relations are unexpressed
Esperanto CLEAR AND IMMEDIATE
SYNTAX: in English rigid fixed word order; in Esperanto very subtle
What is wrong with a confusing grammar, most languages have one and millions of people speak them with no problem.
A fixed word order is good, it makes understanding a confusing grammar easier.
Comparative characteristics of English and esperanto.
WORD-DERIVATION: in English limited possibilities: 5%;
in Esperanto VAST POSSIBILITIES 17%
Index of AGGLUTINATION(1): in English 0,3; in Esperanto 1
(1) “Lingvistikaj aspektoj de Esperanto”, Dr John C. Wells; professor of English language phonetics at University College London.
Who needs agglutination. If you want to use two words use two word, if you want to use three use three otherwise learn German.
And limited derivation is perfectly OK. If you want more derivation learn Math.
Comparative characteristics of English and esperanto.
IDIOMS: in English innumerable; in Esperanto virtually non existent
HOMONYMS: in English very numerous; in Esperanto virtually non existent
POLYSEMY(1): in English very commun; in Esperanto rare
(1)Lingvistikaj aspektoj de Esperanto”, Dr John C. Wells; professor of English language phonetics at University College London.
Just read the response to your last post
For the Polysemy in English
* 21 120 different meanings for the 850 words of the basic vocabulary.
This used to be called a very rich language, it gives nuance to the spoken word.
Esperanto does not have it because it is a non living language. It have never been used in the daily lives of millions of people intent on giving new meaning to old words. For example what used to be @? A mass unit than most people in the world today do not know. What is it today? Something else.
Esperanto have been around about 150 years and have been spoken by a very small amount of people, people who do not use the language in their day to day but just to communicate with others like them, to practice the language because they do not have any other way of doing it.
Now let Esperanto loose in a black/latino/poor neighborhood, in Brazil fabelas, etc. and the you will see how Esperanto becomes a living language, 10 years later you will not understand the Esperanto those people speak. It always happens, Spanish is a more or less controlled language with a regulatory body recognized by all the people who speak the language, now talk to me about the Spanish of Mexico, Cuba, Argentina, Chile, Peru, etc. That in the long run is unavoidable. People is like that. They will take a word and use it for something else.
To Alejandro Carlos: on October 26th, 2015 you wrote:
“Hi Leo, would you please explain to me the spelling logic in French, German and Dutch.”
I will not give an absolute answer, but a relative and subjective one:
German and Dutch have a pretty logical spelling (if they do not loan English words!). French has a less logical spelling, but it is more logical than the English spelling: a group of vowels (au, oeu, ai, …) is always pronounced the same way, not so in English, as I already showed here about ea. French has more characters than English to indicate the right pronunciation (é, è, ê, …)
You wrote: “At the same time would you also explain why it is more logical, according to you, to learn Esperanto, a language that is not the official or …”
I will use the words of my late friend Claude Piron:
“If we refer to the switch-over from Roman to Arabic numerals or, in other fields, to the abolition of slavery or the promotion of women in political and economic life, we realize that history progresses at a very slow pace if human minds have to adjust to something that they had not thought of. Measures in favor of greater justice always oppose the interests of powerful groups which do everything to keep their privileges. Moreover, humankind always resists non-technical, non-material innovations that make everyday life easier and are the fruit of human creativity, probably because people do not easily change deep rooted habits.”
So, one can compare English with Roman numerals: not easy to operate with (make the multiplication of for example XCVII . XLIX using only Roman numerals, you will see) and Esperanto with Arabic numerals, who are much easier to operate. Claude said:
“There was a time when the whole West used Roman numerals and only a few strange people knew about the so-called Arabic (in fact Indian) numerals. However, had an extra-terrestrial come to research the Earth then, it would quickly be convinced that the whole world would eventually adopt the Arabic numerals. A second example: the metric system. It was proposed in 1647. A century later, only a few experts knew about it. But today almost the whole world uses it. The US continues to stick to its old units of length and weight, but it is an exception. If you compare the Roman numerals, the US system of weights and measures, and the use of English on one hand with the Arabic numerals, the metric system and Esperanto on the other, you notice that the latter share several positive characteristics: they are overall quicker to learn, their use is easier, they are more consistent, and they are more democratic. When only the Roman numerals were in use, only mathematicians were able to multiply and divide. The Arabic numerals placed calculation at the disposal of craftsmen, farmers and children. This noticably progressed the democratisation of society.”
Sorry Leo but you missed the point (or the sarcasm), I was not looking for an explanation.
Your explanation is appreciated but not entirely precise or convincing. A little bit exaggerated in its putting down of the English language and its praise of Esperanto. But then again you are an Esperanto activist.
Roman numerals were limited in scope. They never got to very high numbers, they never needed them. The slowness in the adoption of the metric system by the Americans is not due to its lack of merit but to economic considerations. All production means in the US were (and in most cases still are) in the US system and changing them would have cost (is costing and will cost) an enormous amount of money. They have gotten away with it so far because all those who adopted (and are adopting) the system still wanted to do business with the US. and put up with it (an still do) but eventually they (the Americans) will come around. They are already coming about since most of the scientific work is in the metric system, as well as in many other instances.
Claude Piron probably was a very smart man on his day but the World has changed in ways he could not predict nor anticipate and that makes his words less valid today than then.
And yes, I already said elsewhere that Esperanto is a very cute little language and that I don’t have anything against it specifically. But you see, all of the arguments in favor of Esperanto are “had”… “Had the Roman Empire not fallen we would be speaking Latin today.” “Had Napoleon not been defeated we would be speaking French today.” “Had the Nazis not been overrun by the Allied Forces we would be talking German today.” “Had the Russian not lost the Cold War we would be speaking Russian now.” And the most important one, “had Esperanto been adopted 100 years ago (or in my opinion when the European Economic Community was created, the precursor of the EU) then we would be speaking Esperanto today. And it would have probably been a good thing.
BUT, and it is a really big but, “The Roman Empire did fall”, “Napoleon was defeated”, “The nazis were overrun by the Allied”, “The Russian lost the Cold War”, and what is most important “Esperanto was not adopted 100 years ago (nor when the EEC was created)” and the Americans became the biggest political and economic superpower (at least for the time being). That gives English a bid advantage. English has everything going for it. Esperanto? Not so much!
From an Idealistic point of view you might have a point regarding Esperanto as an easier to learn language which might turn out to be a good thing “if adopted” with benefits showing 100 years from now. It is a nice ideal. So was Communism. So is the Koran. Once implemented flaws and defects start to show up in the least expected places.
With English we already know what to expect and we can prepare for it. Additionally, languages change with time and human participation. My belief is that if Esperanto is adopted as a World Lingua Franca it most likely will change for the worse as soon as the uneducated massed get a hold of it and a thousand different cultures try to make it their own. Since it is at the top, according to Esperantists, it does not have anywhere to go but down. On the other hand, English have been around for a while and in that time it has changed a lot, for the better. It has become less abstruse, simpler, easier to learn and to pronounce and with more people learning it will continue to progress. Once it is stipulated as a World Lingua Franca there will be more uniformity and regulation on its teaching, simplifying it further.
So you see I have great hopes for the adoption of English as a World Lingua Franca. I see nothing but good things coming out it. And a great likelihood of it happening since people are embracing it voluntarily and wholeheartedly.
I do not really know about your hopes for the adoption of Esperanto. I do not see bad things coming out of it but I really doubt that it will happen. Its implementation will not be voluntarily accepted by most people and it will be an uphill battle since there is no immediate benefits for those who adopt it. For a long time they will have to continue learning English to deal with the Americans and other communities who will be using English as their main communication mean.
Herein it has been postulated that Esperanto should be taught universally and in the mean time we can continue to use English as the main mean of communication between countries.
If people continue to learn and use English in their day to day, to do business and to communicate with each other, reaping immediate benefits, and are force to learn a language that offer them nothing in return. What do you really think will be the future language of the world?
I have nothing against Esperanto per se, I just believe it is not practical nor beneficial its adoption as the World Lingua Franca. It just have to many things to conquer, and the most difficult one is going to be English itself.
But I wish Esperantist my best wishes their dream become reality. I did the same with the Communists to no avail.
To Alejandro Carlos:
I will give a reply in English, but first I will write it in Esperanto.
eo: Mi respondas laŭ via propra maniero:
Ne gravas, ĉu multaj homoj parolas la anglan, ĉu la angla vortaro estas tutmonde la plej dika, ĉu ili havas la plej grandan armeon, la plej multajn atombombojn, la plej grandan ŝiparon, la plej altajn turojn, plej multan monon, k.t.p. Ĉio ĉi ne gravas en la longa daŭro. Ja gravas la kvalito de lingvo. La plej altkvalita lingvo finfine venkos. La hind-arabaj nombrosistemo pli bonas ol la romana sistemo. Ĝi finfine venkis.
Mi ja scias, ke vi flanken ŝovos tion, kiel ne gravan detalon. Cetere, mi povas konjekti, kiu lanĉis ĉi tiun nuranglan demandon ĉe “Debating Europe” kaj postulas, ke ĉiu respondu ĝin nurangle…
Ĝis nun validas la fondaj traktatoj de Eŭropa Unio: ĉiuj oficialaj lingvoj estas samrajtaj.
I will reply in your own way: It is not relevant that many people speak English, whether the English dictionary is the thickes in the world, whether they have the greatest army, the most nuclear weapons, the largest fleet, the highest towers, the most money, etc. All of this does not matter in the long term. What is relevant is the quality of a language. The language with the highest quality will ultimately prevail. The Hindu-Arabic number system is better than the Roman system. It finally won. I know that you will put aside this, as a not relevant detail. Besides, I can now imagine, who launched this English question on “Debating Europe” and requires that each answer it in English only… Until now apply the founding treaties of the European Union, all the official languages have the same rights.
Sorry Leo, but you are comparing apples and cats. When you say that it does not matter how many people speak the language but which language, IN YOUR OPINION, is better, don’t you think that is a little bit the totalitarian way? Esperanto is better because you say so, regardless that there are a billion people who think differently. That remind me of Cuba, the socialist block and many other tyrannies. And you have to bring up armies, nuclear weapons and such, to make believe that Americans are going around the World bombing people if they do not speak English. You are more against the US and the Brits than you are against English, and you deride English in your political frustration. I As I said before this is not a political issue, so please, stop trying to make it one. I would say that this debate is more about an administrative question than a political one.
And the Arabic numbers won not because it was a better system but because Roman numerals were a limited and flawed system that did not allowed many things that the Arabic numbers permitted. The roman system was developed at a time in which those needs did not exist, and when the Arabic numbers came around there were no longer Romans trying to develop their system so it could compete. But English can do everything Esperanto does and then some, but not the other way around. For example, Esperanto has only appealed to about 2 million people while English has appealed to over 600 million (not native, since that is the only way they can be compared, as a second language since Esperanto is the native language of a negligible number of people.
And at this time it is completely irrelevant who posted the question. It was posted, and it was posted in English, creating a debate in English. A conversation is carried out in the language all participants can use, doing otherwise is disrespectful to say the least. That is why it was posted in the first place, because many people think it will be beneficial to every citizen of the EU to have a common language they could use to communicate and understand each other. Now it is just a matter of agreeing which language to use, if any.
What really matters, is that it was posted in English (creating this debate in English, so that people who speak English could express their opinion, in English), and that those who want to participate ought to do so in English, that way every participant could understand. You, and all others who want to do so, are welcome to state your opinion in English.
If you express your opinion in a different language it is rude and useless. If you still want to express your opinion but do not speak the language, well that is what interpreters are for. It is very difficult to solve our differences if you express yourself in German and I express miself in Chinese. A common language is required.
Those of you who want to have this argument in a different language should post the question in that language and those who speak the language will participate in it, and if a person who speak English wants to participate should do it in the language the debate is being carried out, not in English. Otherwise he or she will be as bad mannered as you and all those others who use a language different to the one being used in this debate. You look like an entrepreneurial individual, you should post the question in French and German and Dutch and Esperanto, then you will have four debates in which to express your opinion in a language other than English, without the annoying participation of those who speak English and that have the bad habit of pointing out how Esperanto does not stand the chance of a snow ball in Hell, at noon, in the middle of summer, of becoming the Universal World Language, and that is my opinion.
And so far nobody, here or in any other place to my knowledge, is advocating the elimination of all the other European languages. I do not speak to my American friends in Spanish nor to my Hispanic ones in English, I don’t know about you but doing that does not make any sense to me.
The dominance of English is an unmitigated disaster. It is destroying diversity, and increasing inequality in society. It fools people into thinking that the can master English and be like native speakers. But 99% of them simply never make the grade. They remain unconscious of the grotesque mistakes they make in English. But it brings huge financial transfers to English-speaking countries like the US and the UK, at the expense of the rest of the world. Rob the poor to make the rich even richer!
In 1950 some11% of the world’s population were native English speakers. Now it is less than 6%.
Alejandro, I’ve been following this thread for weeks now and thee has said this sentence numerous times: “But English can do everything Esperanto does and then some, but not the other way around. ” but I have yet to see ANY examples of the premise in either direction. Now, either put up or shut up, as they say. Show us the money! Name specific things that English can say/do that Esperanto cannot. (Don’t play the numbers game, it’s irrelevant, since numbers of speakers are not morphologic, lexical, or semantic properties of any language).
Another: “If you express your opinion in a different language it is rude and useless.” understanding that “in this debate” is the unspoken part of that sentence. Bull stuff. It is a EU issue and the EU has TWENTY-FOUR official languages, any one of which is appropriate for a discussion on an EU issue.
Cu iu povas traduki ? Mi diras ke la celo de la anglausonanoj estas detrui, mortigi, malperigi ciujn lingvojn por esti la majstrojn de la mondo. Homoj ne vidas tion kaj ne komprenas. Tiuj kiuj lernas la anglan ne komprenas ke la usonanoj trudigas de forte kaj ke ili ne lasas al ili la elekton do estas maldemokratia. Mi skribis al la ambasadoro de ONU por demandi shangi tiun politikon maljusta per alian politikon justa, simpla por ciuj, kie ciu gardas sian lingvon, sian kulturon, sian identecon, mi demands la remalfermo de la debatoj kaj debato en ONU sur mia demando kie 90 % de la populacio havus avantagojn per la facileco kaj la egaleco. Mi vidas se mi havos respondon. Mi sendis ciujn paperojn kiujn mi havas sur la aviado kaj la problemoj de la angla en tiu specialajo, la neceso de shangi la lingvon de la aviado et ne al la angla cie kaj en ciuj landon ne usonanglaj.
Al carlos. kaj Sean Riain. Estas vera ke la anglousonanoj volas detrui, mortigi, malperigi ciujn lingvojn ; ili trudigis ilian feston Halloween en Francio, ilian kulturon kaj malbonan magajon. por esti la majstrojn de la mondo. Volas malfortigi eùropon. La homoj kiuj lernas la anglan car oni ne lasas al ili la elekton, oni trudigas de forte. Do mi batalas kontraù la anglan en lernejoj, en entreprenoj aù francoj laborante en francaj entreprenoj, oni trudigas paroli la anglan dum la tuta tago. Estas vera honto ! Mi sendis leteron al la ambasadoro de ONU demandi la remalfermo de la debatoj por alia politiko kies la angla ne taùgas al ciuj, estas neceso shangi per lingvo justa, simpla por ciuj kies 90 % de la monda longantaro havus avantagoj kaj kominikado ege inter ciuj homoj kaj por la paco. Mi vidos se mi havas respondon. Se iu povas traduki, mi dankas.
Vi pravas: ni ne devenu la sekvajn ŝtatojn de Usono! Uzu ni alian komunan lingvon, sed ne la anglan. Aŭ ni perdos potencon. Iomete simila estas la debato pri Eŭro kaj Dolaro!
Erratum : mi volas skribimalbonan mangagon kaj kominikado anstataù kominikado, eraroj de miaj fingroj.
Sorry Carlos, but Esperanto is not just better because Leo says so, or because I or anybody else says so, it is objectively better than English. I could give a vast number of examples, but I will just give three, to show what I mean.
1. Esperanto has six participles; English has two. So for the English “falling, fallen”, Esperanto has “falanta, falinta, falonta, falata, falita, falota”, i.e. is has past, present and future participles, active and passive. So “falota arbo” is “a tree which is about to be felled” – English has 8 words, or 27 letters, to Esperanto’s 2 words, or 10 letters. In this instance English needs almost 3 times as many letters to express the same thing as Esperanto, i.e. English is objectively less efficient. That is not an opinion, it is a verifiable fact.
2. All Esperanto parts of speech can be changed to other parts of speech in a regular manner. For instance, in English the adjective corresponding to “uncle” is “avuncular”, to “mother” is “maternal”; to “brother” is “fraternal”, to “fox” is “vulpine”, to “dog” is “canine”. You need to learn each adjective separately from the noun, and many nouns have no corresponding adjective, such as aunt, cousin, hare, turkey. In Esperanto, all nouns, without exception, can be turned into adjectives simply by changing the final -o, with which all nouns end, to -a. So for the above English words, Esperanto has onklo/onkla; patrino/patrina; frato/frata; vulpo/vulpa; hundo/hunda. The Esperanto adjectives corresponding to the English nouns “aunt, cousin, hare, turkey”, WHICH DO NOT EXIST IN ENGLISH, are “onklino/onklina, kuzo/kuza, leporo/lepora, meleagro/meleagra”.
3. Every adjective, without exception, in Esperanto can be converted into a verb, regularly, e.g. “pura”, clean, gives “purigi”, to clean. In English you can say “to cool” but not “to cold”; “to warm” but not “to hot”. You have exceptions in English, and you have to learn each exception separately, slowly, laboriously, by trial and error. In Esperanto you simply learn the rule, which is universally applicable. So there are many verbs which do not exist in English, “malvarmigi” and “varmigi” cover the two verbs mentioned above, which do not exist in English.
So Esperanto can express, and far more concisely, everything that English can express. But English has gaps, as is apparent from the above examples. Therefore English cannot express everything which Esperanto can.
Your idea that most people have chosen English instead of Esperanto is completely false. They have chosen English because they do not know of the advantages of Esperanto. How many non-speakers of Esperanto are aware of the advantages which I have just described?
It is you, and not Leo, who is comparing apples and cats. You compare a language supported by the astronomic power, money and military might of the English-speaking world with a language which has none of these advantages, and which is growing because of its intrinsic, linguistic merits, and nothing else.
Another huge advantage which Esperanto has over English is the fact that Esperanto is comprised of invariant roots and affixes which can be freely combined to express any desired meaning. In Seán’s example here, purigi combines pur/ and -ig with the ending for an infinitive verb and since -ig means to cause or make, purigi AUTOMATICALLY means to make pure and can never mean anything else because there is no such thing as an archaic meaning in Esperanto.
This is a huge advantage since it means that in Esperanto, words with related meanings are syntactically related too and therefore more easily understood. Where the learner of English has to learn beautiful, pretty, gorgeous, ugly, plain and grotesque separately, the learner of Esperanto only needs bel/, -et (meaning a small size or degree), -eg (meaning a great size or degree) and mal- (meaning opposite) to form the equivalents bela, beleta, belega, malbela, malbeleta, and malbelega, whose meanings are immediately clear from the meanings of their roots. Though I strongly disliked mal- at first, in time I came to see that contra Orwell and his fictional Newspeak, mal- adds precision rather than reducing it. Maljuna and malnova are undeniably more precise words than old in English, because one never needs to ask in which way the person or thing is old; it’s immediately clear from the particular word used.
Esperanto’s 17,000 roots and 46 affixes can be combined to produce far more words than exist in the anarchic, unwieldy, concrete-limited, mongrel dog’s breakfast of a language known as English — every one of them clear and precise in ways which are simply not possible in English.
To Seán Ó Riain:
Thank you for your reply to Alejandro Carlo as I am tired trying reply to him in that difficult English.
Of coarse he will find the comparison of qualities irrelevant. Only what he says is relevant…
Mia karmemora avo flandre diris: “Kiom helpas kandelo kaj okulvitroj, se la strigo ne volas vidi?”
to Alejandro Carlos
“What really matters, is that it was posted in English (creating this debate in English, so that people who speak English could express their opinion, in English), …”
Are democracy and justice relevant in the EU?
You defend posting a question in English. Who putted it and why it is putted it is not relevant for you. For what it will be used afterwards is probably also not relevant for you.
If there is an announcement by the European Commission only in English about hiring employees, this probably also does not matter for you. In my simple mind it is a disrespect to the founding treaty of the EU.
Good for you Esperantists! PEOPLE DON´T EAT SEMANTICS! As I have said repeatedly. All of that is irrelevant. People are still choosing English over Esperanto. Why? Ahhh, yes, I forgot, “the astronomic power, money and military might of the English-speaking world.”
I am glad you have learned so much about Esperanto. It makes you look intelligent. How come you fail so miserably when confronted with numbers. When you are confronted with numbers, real numbers, then the best way to fight it is to gang on in the individual presenting the numbers.
I know I am right when being only one, and you being several, Riain, Leo, Framptono, Lambert, Mosier, etc. none of you have been able to rebut my arguments. To wit:
1. It DOES NOT matter that Esperanto is easier, more regular, more understandable, more analytical, more agglutinative, etc. that English.
—There are more NEW people learning English, voluntarily, every year in the World than the total number of Esperanto speakers in the World.
2. It DOES NOT matter if the World will be a better place 100 years from now if Esperanto were to be implemented as the World Language. It will happen anyhow with whatever language become the World Language. Be it English, German, French, Spanish or Chinese. Once everybody speaks the same language things will be better.
3.Esperanto is not a language that has passed the test of being spoken freely, regularly and uniquely, in a non-controlled environment, by a diverse group of people, including illiterate and uneducated people, intent in using the language for their own purposes, changing or giving new meaning to words, or inventing new one as they go. Let´s see how regular, etc. Esperanto will remain after that. Esperanto is spoken only by people who has a certain level of education and after learning it use it only to communicate with similar people. Give Esperanto to the illiterate, to the uneducated masses, to the people of different countries with different backgrounds and cultures, and watch what happens.
4. If you do with any language, English, Spanish, German, French, Chinese, etc. what you, Esperantists, postulate should be done with Esperanto, the results will be the same. After a number of years everybody will have the same footing. The advantage you claim the speakers of a particular language have over others who do not speak the language is eliminated. But with any of the languages which could possibly be considered for the task, you will have the advantage of starting with a lot more speakers (less people to teach) and a bigger infrastructure (less things to do, less money to spend, less teachers to train) so you will get there sooner with less effort.
5. The only thing I have said English has in its favor is that:
— It is the language most spoken as a second language.
— It is the language with the larger infrastructure already in place.
— It is the language that is official, de facto or legally, in more countries.
— It the second most spoken language in the world, as a native language.
— The most spoken language in the world, by natives, does not offer the same advantages as English, and additionally is one of the hardest to learn.
— It is the language more people learn, in more countries, voluntarily, without coercion or subsidies from their governments, because it is perceived as the language that gives the most and greater benefits in the shortest amount of time, once learned to a certain point.
— The benefits that can be obtained learning English are immediate, not due 100 years from now.
So Esperanto is easier, and you can make verbs with any adjective, bla, bla, bla.
Let Esperanto beat the aforementioned. And, do not stop beating your drums, you are the only ones dancing to their tune.
The question was posted in English because it is the most spoken language in EU. It was intended to gauge how amenable were the people to the idea of English being “administratively” the sole official language” in Union. Not politically, not culturally, but administratively. Of course, you and I know that once one language is spoken in all the countries, by all the people in World that will affect detrimentally all other languages. Whether it is English, German, French, Spanish, Chinese, Russian or Esperanto. But the question was not if English should become the only language in the World, nor was it if Esperanto was a better language than English. So you guys are completely off track.
So if you just explain why, or why not, English should be the only “administratively” official language in the UE, you are going to be more helpful. Leave Esperanto out, it is not relevant to this debate. If you want to talk about Esperanto in any capacity, post a question and create a debate. If you want to debate this point in another language, post the question in that language.
And Mosier, you can get very good results and a quick and lasting agreement by sticking a bunch of people that speak 24 different languages in a room and expect them to understand each other. Way to go!
to Alejandro Carlos: About: Esperanto is not a language that has passed the test of being spoken [….] by […] illiterate and uneducated people, [who] intent in using the language for their own purposes, changing or giving new meaning to words, or inventing new one as they go.
Read replies on this subject at http://remush.be/rebuttal/index.html#278
Thank you Remuŝ, I think the Esperantists herein will benefit from that link as well, probably more.
A good point, Vilheĉjo. The invariability of morphemes, and the fact that they can also be used as independent words, gives Esperanto a lot in common with Mandarin Chinese. Another example of the systematic nature of Esperanto, which makes it both more precise and easier to learn than English or other languages:
English: horse, mare, foal, stallion
French: chevel, jument, poulain, étalon
German: Pferd, Stute, Fohlen, Hengst
Esperanto: ĉevalo, ĉevalino, ĉevalido, virĉevalo
All of those words are related by meaning, but only Esperanto shows this relation clearly. In most languages you have to memorise each of these words separately. Esperanto, however, provides a clear system, which is also valid for all other animals. And “ino” as a separate word means “a female”, “ina” is “feminine” and “ine” means “in a feminine manner”. The precision, concision and beauty of Esperanto, which is unknown to over 99% of those who favour English in this discussion.
Multan dankon, Leo, pro tiu bela flandra proverbo. Estas granda sagheco en ghi.
Amike.
Seán
Jes, se ni volas la monopolan lingvan solvon kia estis la rusa en eksa Sovetio. Certe ĉiuj neanglaj popoloj estos feliĉaj kiel popoloj de eksa Sovetio kiuj pro feliĉo eksiĝis el ĝi tuj kiam prezentiĝis la okazo.
No! Perche’ credete di poter parlare la lingua dei forti, USA e fare del male ai deboli?
L’unica soluzione e’ l’esperanto. Siamo tutti uguali.
Renato
40% of us speak English, but 60% do not. Should we disregard the majority’s right to be informed? No, certainly not. Even as a native speaker of English, I do not think that English should be the only official language in the EU. Although translating documents and interpreting in 24 languages is very expensive, not doing so would be extremely unfair and undemocratic.
In the future, if there should be only one official language in the EU I would opt for Esperanto. It is much easier to learn than other languages and it does not belong to any one country in particular; it is neutral.
Obviously it could not be introduced tomorrow or next year, because there are not enough of us that speak it yet. However if it were introduced as the first foreign language in all European schools, I am convinced that within the next 25 years it would be a realistic option.
Absolutely !
I really appreciate such an opinion from an English native speaker. [Esperanto] Gratulojn al vi!
To Alejandro Carlos: “All of that is irrelevant.”
Dear Alejandro,
If it makes you happy thinking, that only what you say is relevant, and all what other people say is irrelevant, well, let it be so. Be happy!
I myself learned English and several other languages, among them Esperanto. I may attest about my experience, I suppose, even if it is irrelevant for you.
My answer to your asking I gave already a long time ago… even in English. Sorry, if it does not make you happy.
Kara Alejandro,
se feliĉigas vin pensi, ke gravas nur tio, kion diras vi, kaj ke malgravas ĉio, kion aliuloj diras, bone: estu tiel. Feliĉu! Mi mem lernis kaj la anglan kaj plurajn aliajn lingvojn, inter kiuj Esperanton. Mi supozas, ke mi rajtas atesti pri mia sperto, eĉ se ĝi malgravas por vi.
Mian repondon al via demando mi jam skribis delonge, eĉ angle. Bedaŭrinde ĝi ne feliĉigas vin.
Leo you can NOT read in my words ANY MEANING you want, they have a specific meaning. What I want to say, not what you decide to ascribe to them.
The arguments you Esperantists are putting forward may or may not be relevant in a Debate about Esperanto as the only official language in the UE. Or in one about which is the best language in the World for a particular use, or even in other debates.
This is a debate about deciding if English should or should not become the only official language in the EU.
“Should English be the only official language of the EU?” That is the question.
The question have nothing to do with German, Spanish or French, or even Esperanto, or any other language being better suited or having a greater right to become such unique official language. It have only, and I repeat, “ONLY”, to do with what the Europeans think about what is being asked. To wit:
“Should English, not German, not French, not Spanish, not Esperanto, be the only official language in the EU? Now from all the things you and others like you, have said here I understand you do not think that is a good idea. Great! Noted. Next.
I encourage you, and anyone else who feels so inclined, to post other questions dealing with the subject you are interested in. I will suggest a few of the possible questions.
“Should Esperanto be the only official language in the EU? (or “Ĉu Esperanto estu la sola oficiala lingvo en EU?”)
“Is Esperanto a better language than English, or than any other language?
“Is Esperanto the best language in the World, barring none?
“Is English an evil language?”
“Are American and English, and everybody else who speaks the hateful language, evil?
“Should a language be the only official language in the EU? If so, which one?
“Is there a World conspiracy about Americans and English bombing the rest of the World with nuclear weapons, or eating all the non-English-speaking children if they do not accept to speak English?”
And many others you, or others, could think about. Also you could post the questions in all 24 official languages of the Union and have debates in those languages.
If I ask you your name in a language and you respond in another, we are NOT going to be able to communicate. If I ask you your name and you answer that you like carrots, we are not going to communicate either. If we want to reach a concensus but each one of us speak in a different language, we are NOT going to reach an agreement.
That has been my contention since the beginning.
And my opinion is that “Esperanto is not a living language but an experiment that has lasted too long. Maybe a good and viable idea 150 years ago when it was posted for the first time but not really as good now.” But that is just my opinion and it does not have anything to do with this debate either. I am just saying it because of the conversation you and other Esperantist have been having with me.
Now, I think that we should step aside and let others express their opinion about if “Should English be the only official language in the EU?
Alejandro writes “How come you fail so miserably when confronted with numbers”. I think the disagreement is not around numbers, but around time perspective. Short term, English with a billion users is clearly the one to go for, but Esperanto has always been a long term play (which is actually good for current English speakers/learners as their privilege/investment is not threatened). Think of the population (all 1st/2nd world by then) plateaued at 13 billion, and that lasting many many generations (100+ who knows), and then on the third axis the money/time cost of a non-optimized international language (see eg the numbers in the Grin Report). That would be a huge volume of waste. (I assume here btw that an international language acts as a “side” language in a multilingual world, ie use the local language most of the time — not a future of only one or a couple of languages where an optimized international language wouldn’t be needed).
Yes it is! And it is also about time perspective! In both counts you guys have failed MISERABLY.
You say that “Short term, English with a billion users is clearly the one to go for”, well you answered me, you are agreeing with me, what is wrong with that?
You say “Esperanto has always been a long term play” and it will continue to be that way. Whatever way you are proposing to make Esperanto reach every human being in the planet and become the Universal Second Language of the World, if you do so with English you will get there sooner, and with less expenditure of time and money, but only if you do it with English.
Of course you do not agree because with Esperanto you ONLY have to teach it to the teachers needed to teach the rest of the World, You have to teach it to the rest of the World, the only difference is that you have to teach it to an additional billion people. And sure, it is irrelevant that everything have to be translated to Esperanto, although it is already in English, and that you will need to train the translators who will do the work. Sorry, I forgot that you are going to do all that so that people could learn many other languages given the propaedeutical properties of Esperanto that make learning another language, after having learned Esperanto, much more easier. (By the way this paragraph is “sarcasm” since you may not understand what I wanted to say given that English is so difficult and illogical)
How is that for failing with the numbers.
And all of that without mentioning that nowadays there are more people learning English, new learners who have never before study English before, every year, in the World, that the total amount of Esperanto speakers. And very important, without compulsion, coercion or subsidy from their governments or the Americans, or the English, or of any other group of people who are English native speakers.
And nobody is bombing them or telling them “We will not sell you food if you do not learn English”.
So yes, you have failed miserably in grasping the meaning of the numbers.
But as I told Leo, this is relevant in another debate, not in this one. This one is about “Should English be the only official language in the EU?”
Alejandro writes “… if you do so with English you will get there sooner, and with less expenditure of time and money, but only if you do it with English.” Yes, that’s right, getting there is cheaper with English, but staying there will be cheaper with Esperanto.
Alejandro writes “… you have to teach it to an additional billion people…”. Well, the additional few/several hundred million ongoing native speakers; for English as a foreign language, each new generation starts afresh.
No, it does not! Once you are there, you ARE THERE, no need for additional expenditures. No more than with any other language. Everybody speaks English, English is taught in all schools, etc.
“for English as a foreign language, each new generation starts afresh” and the same is true for Esperanto as well, so what is the catch?
Arriving at the point of a fully established international language, then the setup costs fall, the infrastructure and initial translations and all the terminology are in place (English is doing really well here, Esperanto is positive but still has a way to go). Maintenance and continuous improvement aside, after this point the cost comes generation after generation from the billions of new 7 year olds (or 11 or whatever) learning English/Esperanto, then keeping sharp in it and using it (fluently or not) in their working lives. The costs of Esperanto in this long phase are not zero, but are significantly less than those of English. English could reduce its costs by being taught very early or even as a mother tongue globally, but that defeats the aim of multilingualism that Esperantists share with Europeans.
If English became the only official language of the EU now, then that would effectively lock down the solution to the language problem, which would be a real shame as a lower cost, higher fluency, multilingual friendly solution does exist, if given some basic support and a few decades of patient investment.
So it seem that we are almost in sync regarding the problem and its social and financial outcome and significance. Except that from my point of view, English being so way ahead, will in the long run till the balance in its favor.
The rest, although also speculative, can be accepted as a given. Once one language is accepted as the “only official language” in the EU, the machinery is going to bend towards making that language “Universal”, that way all citizens will get the most out of it. That is, it is going to be taught is all schools, at all levels, at first as an option, but later on compulsorily, because governments “always know what is best for their citizens”.
I am an immigrant, and it is my experience, and numerous studies (not done by me) show that every new generation tend to relate less and less with its original “mother tongue” to the point of stopping using it altogether and in most cases even disconnecting themselves from it. If you live in the US, although now you can experience the same almost everywhere, you will find that from the second and third generation, many do not know how to speak the language of their ancestors creating serious identity problems within families.
In my case, being of the opinion that the adoption of just one language for the whole World will be more beneficial than detrimental, I only see a problem in the first couple of generations, after that everybody will “a native speaker” so the problem goes away. And contrary to what many people want you to believe, at least the way I see it, it will not obliterate other cultures, they are just going to be chanting in a different language. Although in many cases there will be an amalgamation.
The way I see it is that regardless of which language, if one language is adopted as a World language, whether as a second or the sole language, it will contribute to the betterment of Mankind, allowing people to comunicarte with and understand each other better. Also, it will work against the local language since with time people will stop needing their original language to do anything they need to do. Whatever neutrality you ascribe to the language originally will be lost after a few years.
And my final point is that meanwhile people find English more useful, they will keep choosing it, at least maintaining the advantage if not increasing it. So unless you resort to some drastic measures, you will always have more English speakers. And the support and patience will also work wonders with English.
@ Alejandro Carlos: you simply ignore the data… only 38% of EU citizens non native speakers of English have some knowledge of English. And a tiny minority of about 7% speaks it fluently. English has failed: it is too difficult to learn because of its absurd phonetics and the EU citizens tend to use it mostly on holidays. Like it or not, the EU will never be part of the Anglosphere.
There are about 507 million people in the EU. 7% is about 35 and a half million. That means there are over 35 million of Europeans who speak English well. How many speak Esperanto.
If English have failed with 35 million English speaking Europeans. How do you define the performance of Esperanto. About two million in the whole World. Who is ignoring the data?
There are xenophobes and homophobes – and now we have an Esperanto-phobe.
Phobia: persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.(dictionary.com)
No Kvasnak. I am not an Esperanto-phobe, but I am a stupid-phobe. It is very stupid to try to make something into what it is not to try to ridicule your opponent. That is something that Esperantists in this debate, which by the way is not about Esperanto, has frequently resorted to when short of decent arguments. Just because you do not have arguments to defend your position in a debate does make your opponent an evil person nor does it diminish the merits of his arguments. And if we are going to use the definition you have posted then you are using the word incorrectly because it is very evident that I was not nor am not trying to avoid Esperanto or talking about it. I personally have nothing against Esperanto nor I have tried to denigrate the language except to expound my point of view regarding statements made herein by Esperanto advocates that in my opinion are incorrect or inexact.
I am not an Esperanto-phobe but you sure are a sore loser.
Mr. Carlos, implying that I am stupid is name-calling at its worse. Addressing me simply as “Kvasnak” is very poor form and is a disclosure of a lack of better and polite education. I do not deem this way of addressing me to be “polite discourse” which is probably the opinion of many who read this forum.
1) If I understand the theme of this forum, it is about language in Europe within the European Union.
2) I have presented facts previously as have many other participants. You, in your diatribes and very wordy and overly verbose comments seem not to consider other people’s opinion rationally.
3) You present us with an almost religious argument for the use of one of the Englishes as the unique form of communication within the EU. In your zeal, you do not specify which variant of the English languages you recommend but since the subject is Europe I would suppose that the intended variant is RP [received pronunciation], i.e. the variant spoken by the elite in England – which neither you nor I have any reasonable command of, seeing that we both seem to writing in SAE [Standard American English]. (For a more detailed discussion of the legal ramifications of using a specific variant of a national language please refer to Skutnabb-Kangas, T. (2000). Linguistic genocide in education or worldwide diversity and human rights. Mahwah NJ – London: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.)
In polite, academic discussions we as a whole do not aim at insulting those in a discussion on a personal level. I kindly request that you also refrain from this though I do find that describing your stance as “Esperanto-phobic” correct and not intended as a personal insult but rather as a way in which to describe an almost fanatic dislike of Esperanto.
Yours, Dr. Robb Kvasnak
Mr. Kvasnak, implying that I am an Esperanto-phobe “is name-calling at its worse.” This is not the first time we cross verbal swords, you have called me Alejandro before and I have called you Kvasnak before without it being considered by neither one of us as a breach in etiquette. I consider implying I am an anything-phobe to be and I quote “very poor form and is a disclosure of a lack of better and polite education. I do not deem this way of addressing me to be “polite discourse” which is probably the opinion of many who read this forum.” You are treated the way you treat others.
“1) If I understand the theme of this forum, it is about language in Europe within the European Union.”
No, it is not. Not any language. The question is and I quote “Should English be the only official language of the EU? I do not see, nor can I infer any allusion to Esperanto in that question, nor whether if it is better or not than English.
So stick to the topic.
“2) I have presented facts previously as have many other participants. You, in your diatribes and very wordy and overly verbose comments seem not to consider other people’s opinion rationally”
So did I, that is present facts, that apparently you can not refute when you resort to name calling. And I did not know there was limit to the extension of the comments of those who do not favor your position. You, Esperanto advocates, has appropriated yourselves of this debate as a pulpit for your activism. This debate is not about Esperanto, and it does not matter how many time you are reminded of the fact, you simply disregard it.
“3) You present us with an almost religious argument…” I am not the fanatic here. I am not the one trying to make other people accept what I propose without proving that it is a better proposition. I am not the one trying sell Esperanto as better than any other language nor that it should be adopted for something that it is obviously not the best candidate for, nor the one being asked about. The question was about English not Esperanto
And the question do not specify which “variant” of English they referred to. So whatever “variant” they decide upon, if they ever do, is Ok with me.
“In polite…” so do I. I also find that describing your stance of calling those who disagree with you and point out the advantages of English and the disadvantages of Esperanto “Esperanto-phobes” as stupid is correct, and not intended as a personal insult but rather as a way in which to describe your position.
This is something you have done before when you could not rebut my comments you started attacking me saying that my knowledge of the English language was very poor, just because you found a couple of mistakes. Until I showed yours, despite you telling us you have a doctorate in English education. Like one you just did. “seeing that we both seem to writing in SAE.” It is either “seem to write” or “are writing” but anybody can do that, that is point other people mistakes and miss its own. Then again that is not what this is about. It is not about who speaks or understands or knows English better. It is about the opinion of Europeans about English being the only official language in the EU. Not Esperanto.
And for your information I have absolutely nothing against Esperanto. I probably learned Esperanto before you ever heard the word, in the early sixties. After several years I found it to be not too useful, the same as nowadays.
You know my name.
The debate should be about human beings and about what sort of language the world need.
The supporters of English are all forgetting the less privileged $2 a day citizens and their families of our world who in appalling conditions supply you with smart phones, clothes, etc, etc, etc and in their limited spare time, limited money and lack of educational facilities should be learning English?
Could it be you are not forgetting and do not want to upset the applecart?
None of the above applies to the Esperanto supporters who are supporting the ideal of a much easier language to be the same second language for all. (even the $2 a day workers)
I am back in China with my wife’s family, all studied English at Uni. None can have English conversation or even a few phrases. So I depend on my limited Chinese and my wife’s translation skills. Which when we exit normal day to day subjects are a disaster. Do not tell me English is the world language! Do not tell me that English is easy!
Every day I live with the isolation and problems caused the multiple languages of the world
Vote with your feet and support your language against the English invasion. Learn Esperanto. https://www.duolingo.com/
I agree Springer, that is something we should also debate about, and actually there are many debates already dealing on the subject. Watch http://www.ted.com/. Look for the debates online and offer your contribution.
But this debate is about “Should English be the only official language of the EU.”
Respingo con assoluta fermezza la qualificazione di ‘stupido’ da parte di qualcuno che argomenta basadosi sulla forza attuale e non su idee di giustizia internazionale e di equita’.
La tua opinione non cambia la situazione
Why Esperanto is the most appropriate language for democratic international communication?
The hegemony of Great Britain and United States lasted during two centuries and is now finishing. The world today is more well-balanced with China, India, Russia, Brasil, Japan etc. Continental Europe is not a linguistic colony of the USA.
90% of the persons who learned English as second language speak it bad or not at all. In Continental Europe they are 88% according to opinion poll of Eurobarometer. In Asia it’s more than 90%.
Some people recommend Basic English (800 words) or Globish (1500 words). But with Globish you can not use the words salad or tomato…You speak only bad English.
The vocabulary necessary to understand an ordinary text, according to Villho Setälä a Finnish linguist, is:
-for 80-90% 2000 words in English versus 500 basic words in Esperanto;
– for 99% 7000 words in English versus 2000 in Esperanto. The frequency of dictionary consultation is one unknown word in a hundred.
75% of the Esperanto roots are comprehensible for English speaking people. Therefore the learning of 500 esperanto roots for only English speaking people is enough for understanding and speaking Esperanto. Moreover the phonetic and the grammar of Esperanto are very easy.
If the governments decide the teaching of Esperanto next to other languages, the world can obtain neutral and easy international language in a few months. It is the interest of humanity to have better communication, more peace, more equity between nations etc.
You should post that question and create a different debate. This one is about
“Should English be the only official language in the EU.”
What is your opinion.
Yes!
No!
Maybe.
I do not have an opinion.
I do not know.
It is not about Esperanto nor whether Esperanto is a better language nor why should Esperanto blah, blah, blah.
What does the hegemony of the USA or England have to do anything?
According to your numbers, 88% of the people who has tried to learn English in the EU have failed catastrophically. They speak badly or not at all. So that means that 12% learned English and speak it well (I always knew that Europeans were smart people). Now according to a different Esperantist, 7% of the population of the EU speak English well. The population of the EU is about 507 million people, that means that according to those numbers 35.5 million people speak English well in Europe and that 295,750,000 people, approximately, (out of 507 million) have tried to learn English.
Question:
How many have tried to learn Esperanto?
How many speak Esperanto well in Europe?
Now according to Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_entities_where_English_is_an_official_language)
“In 2015, there were 67 sovereign states and 27 non-sovereign entities where English was an official language.” Most notably English is not the official language in USA, Australia, United Kingdom and New Zealand.
Question:
How many countries have Esperanto as a de jure or a de facto official language?
Also according to Wikipedia
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population)
“European Union: The European Union is a supranational union composed of 28 member states. The combined total English-speaking population (2012 {this is thre years ago}) is 256,876,220[29] (out of a total population of 500,000,000,[30] i.e. 51%—Wow!) including 65,478,252 native speakers and 191,397,968 non-native speakers, and would be ranked 2nd if it were included. English native speakers amount to 13% of the whole Union population, while the percentage of people that speak English “well enough in order to be able to have a conversation”, either as first (32%), second (11%) or third (3%) foreign language, was 38%.
When taken from this list (a detailed list in the linked page giving the number of English speakers by country) and added together, the total number of English speakers in the world adds up to around 1,200,000,000 (that is more than the number of Mandarin speakers in the World). Likewise, the total number of native English speakers adds up to around 350,000,000 (Presently, it is almost, if not more than, 400 million). This implies that there are approximately 850,000,000 (That is almost as many as native Mandarin speakers [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers] people who speak English as an additional language.”
Question:
How many have tried to learn Esperanto?
How many speak Esperanto well?
“If the governments decide the teaching of” English “next to other languages” everybody will be speaking English well pretty soon.
The rest of your dissertation is very interesting information but good to post in a different debate.
No. English is imperialistic. It would be like adopting the US dollar as a common currency. The EU needs a neutral language such as Esperanto, a kind of “€” language.
The “€” is having serious problems. Governments (or countries) are imperialistic, English is just a language. Now, Spain, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Hungary, Russia, Austrias, Rome, Greece and many other European countries were imperialistic and so were England and the US.
What has that to do with the question being asked?
Language and culture are closely linked, and unlike other languages, English is dominant in the two most influential of those imperialistic countries. As a result English is perceived by some Europeans (maybe many?) as imperialistic. I wonder how Latin Americans perceive English?
So Framptono, like before, you are off the mark here as well. Those many Europeans who perceive English as imperialistic, do they also perceive French, Spanish, German, etc. as imperialistic (languages)? How many countries have they conquered?
Many of them hate Americans as much as you guys do,, basically for the same reasons, but they want to learn English, they try to learn English and in many cases they do learn English, a lot more frequently (more like millions of times more frequently) than they want, try or learn Esperanto, despite Esperanto being such a liberating language.
You see, they want the smartphones, the TVs, the movies, the clothes, the shoes, the hamburgers, etc., and more importantly, they want the money (more money) they can earn once they speak just a little English. There are also many who like and want things from other countries or they like their culture and want to learn the language, French, German, Japanese, Chinese, Italian, etc.
Does that means those languages are also imperialistic. They are exporting their things and culture too.
That you perceive, or believe, something is something does not make something something.
For all of those who disagree with English as the ONLY official language of the EU, and there a very many of them (probably a majority), Esperanto, as a viable alternative is very relevant. A huge majority of those who support English only do so because they know nothing, or almost nothing, about Esperanto.
My point exactly!
Of course ! and as you already wrote, Sean : “People need to be educated before voting. Most people either have no idea about Esperanto, or they have prejudiced views which are demonstrably false. First an EU-wide information campaign, then a vote.” Best wishes.
It is most of the time not their fault, Seàn, that they know nothing about Esperanto. It is the fault of the hidden persuaders, the news channels. I am condemned to live in a country which has a very difficult language: Serbian (as most slavic languages: very flectional, very rich in “feel”-words, a very complicated, for wetsreners word order). So each morning I watch BBC (or RT or DW or Al Jzaeera), all in Englich. I have been teachitn in Afrika mathematics for two years (long ago). I thought I was fluent in English. But now I am just glad I can catch a glimpse of what the news is about, because 75% of the speakers and those interviewed speak their weird accent or the subject is too special for me (BBC only about finances and big cities, DW about technology). English is a curse for those who want to communicate on a level higher than street-level. And no school education can ever train people in suc a way that they feel comfortable with native speakers of English.
Another big lie about English is what Philippe Van Parijs preaches: it would give better conditions for worldwide justice, because, as he HOPES, the crowds in the world, once English-proof, will unite themselves and rise agianst the (English) powers in the world. (read Justice for Europe and the World). Of course in SOME situations it is advantageous to learn English and I am not against it, but that knowledge has nothing to do with justice. Justice would be if government institutions would guard their language AGAINST English, if on the individual level people who suffer from loss of native language/identity would be given an opportunity to integrate into the society. That is a far bigger problem on the local level than any fancied idea about obe world, one language.
Agreed likewise Esperanto is a fancied idea, but there is no whatever reason to ridicule it. Everybody can learn it. Nobody is forced into a power structure that does not befit him, that is contrary to his culture. Esperanto is a kameleon, which allows for everybody to adapt it to his or her own needs.
“English is a curse for those who want to communicate on a level higher than street-level. And no school education can ever train people in such a way that they feel comfortable with native speakers of English”
I imagine you are referring to the educational system in the African country in which you are (or were) teaching. I also watch the BBC and constantly see African (black, so there is no question that is only the selected white minority) citizens expressing themselves in very good English.
And native speaking is way overrated. Nothing more true that bad command of a language by the illiterate, the uneducated, the ill educated and those who do not want to be educated. And please, do not leave out those who start learning a language and after one or two years wish tobe at the same level than those who have dedicated their lives to the language. I am not talking about just English but any language.
Where do you leave the thousands upon thousands of immigrants who arrive to a new country and through study, hard work and sacrifice become artists, scientists, teachers (in the learned language), etc. and manage to adquire a command of the language far better than many native speakers.
English is just a language it does not give nor take away anybody´s liberties nor dispenses justice. Governments do that and the same is applicable regardless of the language. If Esperanto becomes the language of country with a bad government it too will be used against its own people. It is government not the language. So please, stop talking against English, but you are free to talk about the US, the UK, France, Russia, China, Korea an any other country you think should be doing better for their citizens. As an extreme example. Take North Korea, teach Esperanto to everybody, make Esperanto the official, and mandatory language of the country but leave the actual government. Are things going to change? Is people going to live better? Is there going to be more Justice and Freedom for the people?
So, no, English is not at fault, English is not imperialistic, etc. Governments are. And if ever Esperanto gets to be widespread and official, it too will be used badly. By the people and more importantly by the government.
And by the way, I am NOT a native speaker and I learned English after reaching complete adulthood. And I am NOT a genius, nor particularly smarter than the average Joe. So if I could anybody can.
Johan is right!
Do not blame your shortcomings in the language, it is not its fault. And English is helping pave the road to better communications and solve all your problems. You just have to study it correctly. And be proud of your language there is nothing wrong with it. English is not a substitute for your language but a tool to use when in need of communication in the absence of a common language.
We clearly shouldn’t use English as the only official language of EU.
1. English is the language of (at least) a state, which doesn’t need to spend more money to teach a foreign language. So it’s not fair. Same for every other language of EU states.
2. English is not easily correctly spoken by every EU citizen.
3. English mostly rely on figures of speach, lots of idioms (like other EU languages), which is also a point againt its effectiveness.
4. The “English” that would be spoken would fork into another new EU-English, as the American English, the Inglish, the Australian one, and so on.
As for the use of Esperanto suggered by others here, I can clearly see that even American are now using Duolingo to learn it, and it seems to be efficient, so why not try it?
3.
Very good points!
When you are considering something to be used for a particular task you normally consider the “pros” and the “cons”, otherwise the assessment will not be a good one and you run the risk of making the wrong decision.
Now it would fair if you to put forward what are the advantages of using English, and let´s consider both.
If you honestly do not know what are the advantages I will advise you to do a little research but in the mean time you can use these:
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/english-official-language-eu/#comment-275028
Alejandro Carlos, your reasoning completely fails: “If Esperanto becomes the language of country with a bad government it too will be used against its own people.” Esperanto will never and should never become the primary language of a country. And you are implying that I or somebody esle are against learning English. !
Of course English is of great benefit, but I stress the sake, that listening and understanding English on a higher level, a level that is necessary to produce any influence and effectively assert oneself is not possible through school trainig. Therefore you must have lived in an English-speaking country for -say – one year at least.
What Esperanto will or will not become is not for you to forecast, unless you also claim to be clairvoyant.
I did live in an English speaking country, not one but 30 years, but I did not learn English there. I already knew the language well enough to have studied Chemistry with English books while in my Spanish speaking country. Undeniably, living in an English speaking country helps master the language and improve pronunciation, but it is not indispensable. The same as with any language (except Esperanto which does not have a country).
There are millions who have never lived in an English speaking country and speak very good English, good enough to give seminars, conferences, write books, etc. in English.
So, do not denigrate the school system just because you or others failed to learn. (Which I do not believe is true in your case because I do not see anything wrong with your English, although your fellow Esperantist Kvasnak may have a different opinion, he consider that my English sucks.) It is the same school system that created the doctors who cure you and the engineers who invented, created and maintain all the things you love. Same school, same books, same teachers, but some students will excel and others will fail. It is not the school system’s, or the teachers’ fault. And even if the school system is bad, if you do as the excelling students do then you will also excel. Just dreaming do not accomplish anything, you have to do things, you have to work hard and you have to persist.
Study English with a similar persistence as you advocate Esperanto and you will learn English, guaranteed. And that does not imply you should give up your advocacy. We all have the same right to ours dreams.
To Alejandro Carlos:
“You should post that question and create a different debate. This one is about
“Should English be the only official language in the EU.”
What is your opinion.
Yes!
No!
Maybe.
I do not have an opinion.
I do not know.”
Dear Alejandro, why do you yourself use so much words to try explaining that opposite ideas are wrong?
Kara Alejandro, kial vi mem uzas tiom da vortoj provante klarigi, ke kontraŭuloj malpravas?
Because according to you English is so difficult and illogical that things need to be explained in as much detail as possible just in order to maybe, just maybe, understand the message. And here I blame myself, because the teacher is always at fault if the student fail to understand, and I am failing miserably as a teacher here. No matter how hard I try you still do not get message.
As proof of the aforementioned, I haven´t said nor tried to prove that opposite ideas are wrong. That means you completely missed my message. Again my fault.
Now, why do you keep writing to me in English and in Esperanto if you know that I will not am not going to read the Esperanto part nor answer in Esperanto.
Bur here I am going to help your cause. “TED.com” there are thousand of videos of people trying to help the World be a better place for everybody. Those videos are for anybody to watch but most definitely are directly aimed to people with a certain level who will understand the Importance of the message as well as the message. They are looking for voluntary translators to all languages in order to allow people who do not speak English to enjoy and be educated by those talks.
Go ahead volunteer, it will be two times as good since you will be transmitting those great messages and you will be promoting Esperanto. The World awaits your help. And this is not intended as sarcasm, it is an honest suggestion.
Here I give you an example of those great and interesting talks.
http://www.ted.com/talks/harald_haas_a_breakthrough_new_kind_of_wireless_internet?utm_source=newsletter_daily&utm_campaign=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_content=button__2015-11-05
or
http://www.ted.com/talks/harald_haas_wireless_data_from_every_light_bulb#t-51988
Alejandro Carlos wrote:
“Now, why do you keep writing to me in English and in Esperanto if you know that I will not am not going to read the Esperanto part nor answer in Esperanto.”
Because you are not the only reader of this forum.
Ĉar vi ne estas la sola leganto de ĉi tiu forumo.
You are right I am not the only reader of this forum. But be honest, you do it because you think it bothers me. Which is OK! Although it does not. I just thought that if it was intended for me it was a waste of time. But carry on, mate!
Li kredas esti la ununura leganto kaj scianto de ĉi-tiu forumo – fakte li kredas estri la idearon de la tuta forumanaro. Bedaŭrinde por li, li ne estras la lingvon kiun li tiom subtenas. Mi kredas ke temas pli pri politika pasintenco lia ol pri vera intereso je la antaŭenigo de la eŭropa movado.
What Kvasnak, so afraid of my response that you are trying to pass one by me thinking I do not understand your cockamamie Esperanto? Well I do. Where is now all your good manners and polite demeanor? or as you said
“is very poor form and is a disclosure of a lack of better and polite education.”
And no I do not have any political agenda, but you guys do, hijacking this debate to use it as pulpit for you Esperanto activism. The question is:
“Should English be the only official language of the EU?” Nothing to do with Esperanto.
I am sure it is really annoying that no matter what you say, or do, you can wriggle all you want in your den, and still people prefer English to Esperanto 500,000 to 3,000,000.
But then again it did not take much for you to show your true colors. I hope you are confortable in your hideaway. Have a good evening! As we Americans like to say, in SAE.
Iam sorry I missed three zeros, it is 500,000,000 to 3,000,000 or 500 to 3
Ne nur la leganto kaj scianto — mi konjektas, ke li estas la kreinto, sed ne kuraĝas diri tion.
Ne estas klare, ĉu ĉi tiu forumo vere estas EUa afero. Gravas klaki la vortojn tute supre sur la paĝo kaj atente ekzameni tion, kio aperas. Mi ne sukcesis elekti alian lingvon en http://www.debatingeurope.eu
Ĉu tio estas la demokratio kaj egalrajtigo de EU? Ŝajnas al mi, ke koloniigo estas pli taŭga vorto.
Parolante pri bonaj manieroj: ĉu vera aŭ malvera usonano decidu pri la lingvoj, kiujn EU uzos?
Cooman, kiam vi diras ion pri persono devas fari kontraŭ la risko de apero malkuraĝa. Estas malŝparo de tempo parolante al homoj en malalta valoro.
@ Alejandro Carlos
1. Only use google-translate to translate to your mother language. (the EO produced by Google isn’t understandable).
2. Why do you think you have a say on this subject? Isn’t it the choice of EU-citizen to discuss this matter as they please.
3. As Michael points out, the question is misleading.
4. I reply NO! May I tell “NO to what”, and “why not?” or is it besides the subject?
1. Well, Esperantists herein think it is a good tool. I do not. But I am totally sure you understood the message.
2. Yes. If you happen to think Esperanto is better say so, but do not try to browbeat the English or other languages advocates into silence. Do not take this forum as a pulpit for Esperanto activism. To that I am opposed.
3. No it is not, “Should English be the only official language in the EU? I do not see anything misleading there.
4. NO is OK! To what are you saying NO!, to “Should English be the only official language in the EU?” and Why not? because you think English is an awful language, etc. That is OK, just do no try to silence those who think differently. The only thing besides the point is the political and Esperantist activism.
1a) Vous nous étouffez de vos certitudes. In other words: https://translate.google.be/?oe=utf-8&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#fr/en/Vous%20nous%20fatiguez%20avec%20vos%20certitudes
1b) Here is what I understood (it makes no sense) : Cooman, when you say something about a person have to do against the risk of emergence coward. It is a waste of time talking to people in a low value.
1c) You do not think Google is a good tool, because you use it wrongly. Google translate back to English. Change your wording until you are satisfied, and make a link to that, as I did above. This will give better results. (The original French gives rubbish)
2) For a non-native speaker, English looks like an unstable operating system that requires updating just at the moment you are in a hurry. But English is perfect as national language. A national language is not build to be international: It changes too fast, and randomly. We need a more stable language (as academic French is). With the equipment we have, we can construct a language that is easier for all. Among the 1000±s attempts to create such a language, Esperanto is by far the most successful.
3) Do you mean that
a) all EU publications must appear in English (they do) but not in other languages?
b) all EU personnel/representatives must only use English when they communicate with each-others and/or with the public.
c) The EU citizens may only address EU instances in English
d) The EU states must put more money in the teaching of English (they do already, to no avail). How much: they don’t want to know (see F. Grin report). How much is needed : You don’t care, it’s not your problem.
e) all a) to d)
4a) English is terrific. French was fanciful. Latin was glorious. Greek was great. Roaring was terrific as well… and still is. (I am a frog).
4b) Esperanto is cheaper.
4c) Esperanto über alles, Über alles in der Welt!
Then go ahead, use Esperanto for all your needs! You have two million people to practice with.
And you can take any reply to a silly extreme.
3. If that is what you are planning to do with Esperanto, then yes . Otherwise you can do with English what you are planning to do with Esperanto, it will be cheaper, quicker and more people will agree to it. Over 1 billion people will agree. How many will agree with Esperanto? Two, three, four million.
e) This one escaped me entirely, not enough info, and it not the English fault, since if it was referring to the previously enumerated ones, then it was superfluous.
@ Alejandro Carlos about billions in favour.
Unfortunately there is no reliable survey of the people opposed to English or those in favour of Esperanto.
The EU carefully avoids to inquire about that in its euro-barometers.
The time is not ripe yet to impose English, because of the silent billions opposed to it.
The EU policy is “Let the situation rot. Never mention Esperanto in any communication, in favour or disfavour.”
In desperation, the uninformed population will have to accept English.
Let’s face face it. The only serious contender to English is Esperanto, now that the French gave up.
Vous n’avez pas voulu de l’Espéranto (voir Nitobe). Et bien maintenant il faudra vous farcir l’Anglais. C’e b f p v g!
Je préférerais que mes petits-enfants n’aient pas à le faire.
“Unfortunately there is no reliable survey of the people opposed to English or those in favour of Esperanto.”
Also unfortunately, there is no reliable survey of the people opposed to Esperanto or those in favor of English. But just from the statistical point of view Esperanto is at a huge disadvantage. That is without mentioning the myriad of other reasons favoring the adoption of English.
In the matter of other contenders, do not give up yet, French may have given up but others have not, although they do not voice their aspirations. Chinese is a very serious contender, even if I and many others think its chances are not too good. When over a billion people are native speakers, the majority without easy access to, and in most cases no interest in, English or any other language as a second language, you have to consider their native language a contender. Moreover when they represent one of the biggest markets and their economy is the second largest and growing.
Another one is Russian, Russia have been underestimated many times, always with disastrous consequences, and now they have a president with a “supermacho” complex intent in making Russia one of the most important, if not the biggest, player in the World arena. He is a very dangerous person. And Russia is the largest country in the World with an enormous production capacity and huge natural resources, and presently a growing sphere of influence.
And finally you have Islam. Islamists speak many languages so we will have to sit, wait and hope they do not overrun Europe first, as their are intent in doing, and the World afterwards. Hopefully the free World (and that include Europe of course) will not allow it.
Although I am native speaker of Spanish I do not really think Spanish is a serious contender. They are too fractured as a community and too disorganized and backward (in most cases) to offer a serious alternative, since it will have to be voluntarily accepted by the rest of the World because they do not offer an advantageous political, financial, etc. alternative and they do not present a military danger, individually or together, to the rest of the World.
Portuguese is not as important or widespread but it is a musical (Brazilian version) and fun language and the women are fantastic.
So let’s wait and see what will the World look like 10, 20 years from now, if we make it that far.
Regarding Esperanto. Despite what several fellow debater may think or say, or the impression they may have gotten from my diatribes, I am neutral about Esperanto. If at the end the World wind up adopting Esperanto, great!, we could have done worse. I have just offered my opinion, a few of statistical facts (not gathered or calculated by me) and some other reasons that point in the opposite direction. But then again a couple of millions of speakers even though it is a very small proportion of the World population it only looks negligible in comparison, we also have to consider the passion and commitment of those speakers.
However, we also have to consider the passion and commitment of those favoring English.
Not necessarily form an imperialistic, World domination motivation. After all English is just a language!
The debate should be about human beings and about what sort of language the world need.
The supporters of English are all forgetting the less privileged $2 a day citizens and their families of our world who in appalling conditions supply you with smart phones, clothes, etc, etc, etc and in their limited spare time, limited money and lack of educational facilities should be learning English?
Could it be you are not forgetting and do not want to upset the applecart?
None of the above applies to the Esperanto supporters who are supporting the ideal of a much easier language to be the same second language for all. (even the $2 a day workers)
I am back in China with my wife’s family, all studied English at Uni. None can have English conversation or even a few phrases. So I depend on my limited Chinese and my wife’s translation skills. Which when we exit normal day to day subjects are a disaster. Do not tell me English is the world language! Do not tell me that English is easy!
Every day I live with the isolation and problems caused the multiple languages of the world
Vote with your feet support your language against the English invasion. Learn Esperanto. https://www.duolingo.com/
English is not the solution to that problem they are and will be exploited in English if adopted, but Esperanto is not the solution to that problem either. They will just be exploited in Esperanto, because the people adopting Esperanto will still want their smartphones, etc. Do not try to sell Esperanto as the solver of the World problems because it is not. Doing so will be misguidance and deceit. That problem is not language related. So no language will solve it.
And regarding the isolation due to the multiplicity of languages, we all are living it since before Christ, way before. But good news, English is taken care of that without you having to do anything. Every year the isolation problem shrinks and the number of English speakers increase. Soon we will not be isolated anymore.
Correction: English is “taking” care…
Dear Mr. Carlos, I looked into the discussion running nearly for one year in this forum and a got the impression that
1. your question was misleading for a number of discussants, because, in some contributions, you pointed out that translation and interpretation costs could be avoided as most stakeholders are already speaking or knowing English,
So, instead of “Should English be the only official language in the EU?”, it should have been a wording link “Should English be the only administrative language of the EU institutions? – because
a) every EU institution is free in choosing its “working languages” (for memory: the European Court of Justice has only French as working languages, for the Commission and the Council, there are three working languages – Deutsch, English, Français) and
b) “official” means in the EU jargon, that every citizen and every politician of the 24 official languages has the right to get law making decisions in the EU in his mother tongue, read proposals of the Commission in the European Parliament in his tongue and to speak and discuss in Council meetings in his (“official”) mother tongue… or do you mean that Mrs. Merkel and Mr. Holland shall discuss with Mr. Cameroun “in the only official language” English?
2. the discussion comes now to a concluding end as nearly all arguments had been put on the table, perhaps with the exception of “language discrimination in professional life”… and I know about what I speak having been 35 years a national economist in the European Commission. As of German mother tongue I could hardly write my notes and comments in German, but, for efficiency reasons I had to write and discuss in French or English.
Many persons who place such a question in a forum as you did, have never experienced “language discrimination” in meetings, negotiations, in the hierarchy of international organizations where the text was in English or the Chairman was of English mother tongue.
My conclusions out of your discussion with the Esperanto speaker vary only in nuances:
1. common Thesis: ”For multi-cultural, multi-lingual and multi-national meetings, organizations and institutions like in the European Union a common communication language is necessary.
2. Common Thesis: “As long as the common communication language is a national language, “language discrimination” exists for all those not having that language as mother tongue.
3. Thesis: In established long-term bilateral communication both partners should have, at least, a passive knowledge of the language of the other.
4. Thesis: The arguments for English are based on the present reality aspects, the arguments for an auxiliary language, like Esperanto, Interlingua, Ido, or, a newly modified Esperanto, are still based on a “dream” that international communication will one day become “non-discriminatory”.
3. there is a way out of the present situation between the fact of “language discrimination” and a better solution in the future. “Give all those who feel being discriminated in communication an option to use an non-discriminatory auxiliary language, whether this is Esperanto, Interlingua, Ido or a modified Esperanto, this does not matter in this stage. Let freely compete this thesis in the EU institutions and in schools (with that famous propaedeutic communication course) in the medium term and we will see, by a voluntary process how people and students will decide.
For the civil servants of the European Institutions this approach was already voted in a symposium in May 2003 in the European Parliament; the details and results can be read in the internet:
> http://www.europe-citizen.net/documents_symposium/major_concl.html
If somebody doubts that civil servants of the European Commission cannot grasp the basic communication facilities in an auxiliary language within two weeks of private holidays, come have a look into the information bulletin of January 1984 (N° 450), in the case, he or she understands French:
>https://www.icloud.com/pages/000pz6QVd_B_Xbr7SXVz5E2XQ#1983_EC_Communication_experiment
What we need is a strategy for a “non-discriminatory modell for plurilingualism”; it can be found in the internet by clicking the link to the “neutral multi-lingual approach”.
Michae
Dear Mr. Cwik.
It is imposible to forecast what a particular person will want to do with words that you say, moreover when they are intent in twisting your meaning trying to portrait it as discriminatory, imperialistic, tyrannical, and xenophobic, to say the least.
You have your hypotheses and I have mine which I have gone to great length to make clear, to no avail. There is no worse blind person than the one who do not want to see, or in this case than those intent in changing the meaning of your words.
You cannot deny that this debate cannot and will not change anything. It will have no influence whatsoever in the outcome of such a decision.
You cannot deny either that the original question has nothing to do with Esperanto, which I have nothing against. It is a fine language, barring of course our difference of opinion about whether it is a living language or have native speakers.
My interpretation of the question as referring to “official” as “administrative” is because I cannot imagine it could refer to using English and eliminate all other languages, that will not only be discriminatory but self defeating.
The consideration to “using only one official language” is born in the desire to eliminate the huge expenses incurred in having to translate everything back and forth between twenty some languages. The EU being a voluntary union of independent states should have known (and I believe they did) from the beginning this will happens, that they would need a unique language to carry the day to day operations of such an endeavor, why they have posponed it for so long really baffles me. And all politicians, and all “wanna be” politicians, in such a Union know they will have to learn at least one additional language in order to carry out his or her duties appropriately. And it goes without saying that expecting that Merkel speaking German, Holland speaking French and Cameron speaking English will reach an understanding or consensus is more than a dream.
Regarding my position in this matter you can say it has to do with the repercussions in the long run. I do not have a problem with English, French, Spanish, German, Esperanto or any other language being selected as the sole official language of Europe. I do believe that any language selected will affect not only Europe but the rest of the World, in more ways than one. And yes it does not matter which is selected, there will always be people who will say it is discriminatory and other things.
There have been many here who have posted comments proposing Esperanto and other languages as the only official language. I did not comment on their comments. They have a right to express their opinion. An so do all other who proposed English as a good idea. Whether it is or not is matter of how you want to look at reality, or to soften the statement, it is a matter of opinion.
You can not deny that there are a group of persons who took upon themselves to browbeat anyone who dared speak in favor of English and who have hijacked the forum and turned it into a podium for Esperanto activism. They have been unable to come with anything more convincing than Esperanto is easy, have propaedeutic characteristics, and it is non discriminatory because it is not the mother tongue of anyone (here they contradict themselves because they claim there are Esperanto native speakers, are there or are there not?), which in my opinion is a lot of baloney.
Now from the practical point of view.
There are already over 100 million European who speak English to one degree or another, and they are scattered all over Europe.
Most of the activities are already carried out in English to a certain extent.
English is the most spoken second language in the World. It is used in Commerce, Science, Political and Diplomatic, and in Social matters all over the World, by all the countries of the World. That is a fact not a fabrication or a wish. How it got there is of no importance. It was not the language fault, it did not do anything to anybody. Spanish is the native language in more countries of the World, but it is not the language fault that Spain was imperialistic at one time. The Spanish language did not kill any indigenous people, the French language did not kill any African, the German language did not kill any Jew and the English language have not bombed anybody.
I just said it is more practical from any point of view to use English. It is going to be easier, quicker and less expensive to use English. And regarding the notorious American and UK, etc. advantage, it will disappear once all politicians speak and understand English, which most of them already do, to a very good extend.
I do not believe Esperanto can beat that, and the Esperantist herein have been unable to present facts that contradict that statement. But then again they are entitle to their opinion, and so am I. What they are not entitled to is to bring their activism into this debate and try to beat those who think differently into submission. Propaedeutic properties notwithstanding.
And the dreams of the few have generally turned bad for the many
Then again, who am I to express my opinion? So here I bow out, you may carry on. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I do not believe it will make any difference.
I will NOT be back. You may say “good riddance!”
Thank you for you extensive reply, although you did not touch the “discrimination aspect” in professional life and, in particular in the Europen Institutions…
It is a tickly aspect because as long a national linguage is the “lingua franca” discrimination exists for all those who have not that language as mother tongue.
We had this discussion subject already some years ago in the Goethe-Institut here in Brussel/Bruxelles and we tried to develop a non-discriminatory communication stragegy; you can find a more extensive reply to your question on the website:
> https://www.icloud.com/pages/000e0kxZIn0EKhme6cY2MbPOg#EN_Language_strategy
If you want to read the conclusions out of that strategy, you can find them under:
> https://www.icloud.com/pages
/000KsR10WPiLYPiqqzR0A_l0g#140724_NEUTRAL_MULTILINGUALISM
Best regards !
Michael
“And yes it does not matter which is selected, there will always be people who will say it is discriminatory and other things.”
That is what I said regarding discrimination. That is what I believe will happen regardless what language is chosen. Had I wanted to continue the discussion I would have said that if Esperanto is chosen, it will be discriminatory to over a billion people who already know a “little” English. But no, I prefer you reach that conclusion by yourself.
As long as a language is chosen as “Lingua Franca” there will be discrimination toward those who have not mastered it to the necessary level. It is human nature.
And my experience as a long time teacher is that people do not like to study, and they will do it as long as it is strictly necessary (I can see the comments denying that because the person speaking will say he or she likes to study, well so do I, but most people do not.) English, German, French, Spanish, etc. are no different, people will study them to the point they consider it satisfactory to their needs and purposes, and that, in most cases, do not take them anywhere near what they really need.
Americans are very discriminatory in most cases, that is historic and although it has changes a lot in the last 60 years there is still discrimination. Butt so are European, Chinese, Japanese and everybody else. That has nothing to do with language, again, that is a human thing.
And I agree that the Esperanto “thing” is a beautiful “dream” (I have said so in more than one occasion here). So was communism (which I have also said in more than one occasion, here). And so were so many other “dreams” dreamed by a few for the benefit of the many. They did not work either, at least not the same way they were sold to the “many”.
I have also said that I believe that at the end what really will solve all our problems (or at least have a better chance of doing it) is to forgo “pluralism”, is to forgo “multiculturalism”, is to forgo “multilingualism”. Meanwhile mankind professes more than one religion, speak more than one language and consider itself as composed by more that one group of distinctive racial or ethnic characteristics, Mankind will be divided, there will discrimination and there will be violence.
It does not matter what language is chosen, in my escenario, at the end everybody will be a native speaker. The pluralism and the multiculturalism is going to take a little more time to eradicate. But it have to be “voluntary”.
I just happen to believe, being the pragmatic individual that I am, that it is going to be easier with English, not because it is the “best” or the “easier”, but because it the one more advanced in that direction, but because more people is already choosing it as the mean to progress, voluntarily and without government subsidy, etc. And if all that is proposed that is needed for Esperanto to become the World “Lingua Franca” (as a second language) is done with English the results are going to be achieved so much sooner, easier and with less expense. I have also said that will be decide by the people, it does not matter what our opinions are, if people continue to study English, for whatever reasons, at the rate they are doing it today, Esperanto does not have a hope. In the other hand if the people decide that Esperanto (or German, or Spanish, or Chinese, or Russian, or any other language) is the way to go English do not stand a chance. In my book, English, so far, is winning, not the Americans, not the British, not the Australian or Canadians, but English. (You can see the supporting statistics elsewhere in my posts).
And we can say anything we want until we are blue in the face, it does not matter.
If it takes 30, 40, 50 years or more in all likelihood I am not going to be around, so why should I care? But I do.
Though I am not a European citizen I am contributing to this discussion because 1) I have lived in Europe and 2) I can relate to the subject directly.
I agree with Michael Cwik.
I have experienced the discrimination issue on both sides:
I was born in the USA and fortunately raised by my grandmother who spoke German with me. This has given me an experience in life which I chalk up under the title: empathy. This is something that is lacking in the argumentation of the person who continually mocks me in this forum due to the fact that I have a doctoral degree and have, indeed, mastered Standard American English – neither of which he has.
When I entered kinderdgarten I did not speak English. There were no provisions at that time for “Students of Other Languages”. My kindergarten teacher’s solution: everytime I spoke in German I was sent to the cloak room as punishment. In first grade, my teacher simply washed out my mouth with soap in front of the laughing class. That was my introduction to Standard American English.
Since then, as a teacher in public schools and even at the university level, I have expreienced teachers mock and ridicule students whose mother language was not English. To note, most of these people were themselves monolingual. And what they ridiculed were small mistakes similar to those made by the person here who fights so ardently for the imposition of English as a world lingua franca.
Later in life, I lived in Germany where I attended the Johann-Wolfgang-von-Goethe Universität in Frankfurt am Main. Even though I was a foreigner, the German government was very generous to me and I had a small job at the university that paid for basic costs. I jobbed on the side.
At one point, I accepted a student job with a marketing company and was called back several times for small tasks. At one point there was an opening for a new employee. I applied even though I was very unqualified. Against the qualified applications of several Germans, I got the job. Later it was explained to me that the fact that English is my mother tongue and that I could edit all reports that were published in English by the firm gave me this great job. Eventually, I learned the profession on the job. However, to this day I am aware that I had an advantage over the other applicants, one for which they could do nothing. You do not pick where the stork is going to drop you.
The situation in Europe is totally injust. I watch German television and see that the leading people of most European institutions are native English speakers from the UK. They have an unfair advantage over everybody else in Europe.
Not to address this problem, simply by white washing it with the argument that so many people THINK that they speak English (though they in fact have but a 75-80% grasp of the intricacies of the language) will only lead to future strife.
The teaching of foreign language in the UK is in dire straights. And many English are very smug about language, though not all. Some of them even feel that it is an imposition that they must study a foreign language. (That is also the case of many in the US.)
This position of arrogance cannot escape young people growing up in today’s world. And it will stoke their just feelings of not having the same rights as those born into the English language. Trying to stop this force is like trying to cork a volcano.
It is in the interests of everybody that there be a FAIR discussion of the issue and an alternative solution for all. The old adage: “one size does not fit all” holds true.
I might add that even conservative politicians in the US are now calling for Puerto Rico to become the 51st state. If you have any experience with Puerto Rico or Puerto Ricans at all, you will understand that the US would then truly become a bilingual nation, a path that we are and have been on for some time now – and it is to our benefit. Bilinguals have more problem solving skills than and do not suffer dementia as early as do monolinguals.
Matters affecting Europe of this magnitude will have a world-wide reach. That is another reason for me to chime in. In the hopes that the sheer power of The City and Wall Street do not jeopardize the future of our world out of a feeling of superiority, pure greed and smug convenience, and in trusting that history will surprise us all, I remain, Robb Kvasnak, Ed.D.
“Though I am not a European citizen I am contributing to this discussion because”
1) I would have become one had I found my grandfather birth certificate.
2) I wanted to be European since a very early age. Serrano Jam, Manchego cheese and Spanish, Italian and Hungarian wines are very dear to me (French wine not so much, go figure).
3) I am a first generation immigrant and can relate to the subject directly.
I also agree with Mr. Cwik in a few things. I have also experienced discrimination in more ways than one. You say that I lack “empathy” but I am an immigrant, you are not. I have experienced more discrimination than you can possibly have, being a “born American.” I have experienced, first hand, the scorn and mockery of those who think I have not mastered the language, like you do (scorn and mock me), but then again I have done more with what little I know than they have with so much more.
I do not have an English degree; I have a Chemistry degree (a Chemistry degree from an American University, and another one from a Cuban University). You teach English, in English. I have taught Chemistry, Physics, Biology, General Science and Mathematics, and now English, in English (and in the former subjects also in Spanish).
I may not have, according to you, mastered the English language. I agree. You can always do better; you can always learn. But only those, who think “they have mastered” the language, are fooling themselves. I have also not mastered Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, etc.
So, who is mocking who? Who is more discriminatory? Get down from your pulpit because you are not better than anyone, most certainly not better than me like you are trying to portrait yourself, doctorate degree notwithstanding.
My kindergarten teacher’s solution” I already sympathized with you regarding this matter in a different post. But do not blame English for the stupidity of your teachers, unfortunately there are a lot of stupid people in the world, and Americans do not have a monopoly on that. But your grandma should have expected you were going to have a problem or two when you started Kindergarten in the US, as a born American without knowing English. And you better than anybody should understand that having a Doctorate in English Education. The same will happen to anybody in the same situation, and indeed it has, they were just fortunate not to have such stupid teachers.
My son was born in Cuba and we emigrated to the US when he was two, we when to great length to assure he learned Spanish “before” English. He too, when he started Kindergarten, did not speak a lot of English (actually very little). He also has a problem or two at school. Fortunately, my son, apparently, is younger than you are and what your teachers did was no longer allowed. So nobody punished him so severely for his mistakes. As we expected, and despite our greatest efforts, he grew up and rejected Spanish. It did not matter what we did, he just did not want to speak Spanish. Then he went to Cuba and met a girl, and all of the sudden Spanish was back in the game, today he is bilingual. Those things happen to the sons and daughters of immigrants.
But English did not have anything to do with it. Immigrants everywhere in World have similar stories.
When I went to school for the first time I was only three years old, it was Catholic school and yes they admitted me and my also three years old cousin. Back them they were not so adamant regarding certain rules, besides it was a religious school and they did pretty much what they wanted. Understandably, we were the younger boy (I) and girl (she) in school. We never suffered any harsh punishment because we were the school mascots, being so young. But at that time it was commonplace for priests and nuns to physically punish, severely, any child who did not do what he was told to do. Should we blame, God because of it, everything was done in his name?
I tell you this so you understand that I am not lacking understanding, to the contrary, it helps me understand this debate so much better, probably a lot better than you do.
“And what they ridiculed were small mistakes similar to those made by the person here who fights so ardently for the imposition of English as a world lingua franca” like you have done in this debate to that very person, despite having committed and still commit many “small” mistakes, but that in your case they become more important since, according to you, “you have mastered the language”. And there you go again trying to change the meaning of what I have said. I have not advocated, not once, for the “imposition of the English language” I have simply put forward facts and statistics you have been unable to deny and resorted to the scorn and mockery, and the twisting of my words to cover your inability. I have just repeated several times that regardless what it is being said in here, people of the World are choosing English over Esperanto many times over. That is a fact, not my opinion.
“Later it was explained to me that the fact that English is my mother tongue and that I could edit all reports that were published in English by the firm gave me this great job.” You would have gotten the job even if you were not native but had the sufficient proficiency for that job. That is exactly one of the things I have been saying regarding learning English, it gives an edge to those who learn it, now, today, not 100 years from now, and that is why people are choosing English over Esperanto. They are not going to be alive 100 years from now. And yes, you have an advantage, a well-deserved one. And yes, there were things they could have done, one of them was learning English. Just when I got to the States I applied, and got the job, with and American company opening a branch in Miami (Spanish speaking territory of the US;-), my chemistry background and my Spanish abilities got me the job, despite my limited, at the time, fluency in English. Years later, right out of college, I was hired by a Spanish company as their Sales Manager for the US, not because I was the greatest manager or salesman, but because I could speak, write, etc. in English, and Spanish, fluently, among other things. So again, my English abilities as well as other abilities, limited as they might have been, gave an advantage over others, including American born native English speakers. I did not pick where the stork dropped me, but I went out of my way to level the playing field, and in some cases to gain an advantage. We live in a competitive World.
“I watch German television and see that the leading people of most European institutions are native English speakers from the UK.” Why do you insist in presenting things that are not true as the gospel? Are you saying that presently there is a UK invasion of continental Europe and most positions of importance in European institutions are controlled by UK born, native English speakers? Really?! I need to get that channel because in the channels I have people in French institutions speak French and in German institutions speak German, and so forth.
“though they in fact have but a 75-80% grasp of the intricacies of the language” Which is more than enough for all practical purposes. I am not prone to throw around unbased statistics but I am pretty sure, from my experience, gained after living 30 years in the US, that a large percentage of the American native speakers do not have a 75-80% grasp of the intricacies of the language. When in college, I was doing better in English than my American school mates. Even people who are supposed to be good with the language, like actors and actresses, newscasters and many others. You see them making stupid mistakes which a person with a greater than 75-80% grasp of the intricacies of the language would not do.
“And many English are very smug about language, though not all. Some of them even feel that it is an imposition that they must study a foreign language” You will find the same situation in most other countries, more importantly in most European countries, of course not all people think that.
“This position of arrogance cannot escape young people” have ever you been to Spain or France, just to mention two. The rest of the paragraph is just rubbish. They have the same rights as the English speakers. Have you ever been to Miami, San Antonio and places like those in the US with large Spanish speaking population in which born American complain that those who speak Spanish have an unfair advantage because they get the job, instead of the monolingual American born.
‘The old adage: “one size does not fit all” holds true’ Of course that goes for Esperanto as well.
And excuse me for being so direct but you have not a clue about the “Puerto Rican problem”, and conservative politician will say anything they consider will get them the Spanish vote. The total Puerto Rican population, inside and outside, of the US is much smaller that the illegal Spanish speaking population in the US. So if they really wanted to make America bilingual they will solve the illegal immigrant problem. Go ahead, tell me what the conservative politicians are doing regarding the illegal immigrant problem. And they have been discussing the 51 state for the last 50 years without any progress. Really, neither the US, nor Puerto Rico wants to change the Status Quo. The US is already a bilingual country where more than 30% of the population speaks more than one language.
Case in point regarding mastering the language “Matters affecting Europe of this magnitude” instead of “Matters of this magnitude affecting Europe” and that is from an Ed.D. And you can “chime in” all you want and hope all you want but you are not going to change anything. And regarding “a feeling of superiority, pure greed and smug convenience” do not singularize the US and the UK. Although the US is the country with the most millionaires, and the UK is also among the 12 countries with the most millionaires, they do not have the exclusivity by a long shot. They are in order:
The US, Japan, Germany, China, the UK, France, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, Italy, India and the Netherlands. (http://www.thinkadvisor.com/2015/06/30/12-countries-with-most-millionaires-2015-world-wea) As you can see greed is not an American monopoly either, there are 4 European countries, beside the UK, participating in the greed, and the others are too, they just did not make the cut. So the rest of Europe is also participating, The City and Wall Street are not the only greed promoters. And indeed, the World is going to surprise you, History is only going to tell the story.
I never stopped being Carlos Blanco B.Sc. (I never use it, though) and an English teacher (www.theworldlanguage.org)
To Alejandro Carlos:
You wrote: “The only thing besides the point is the political and Esperantist activism.”
Give it a name (Esperantist activism) and and say it is besides the point.
I suppose that actively support and defend the use of a language other than Esperanto, especially English, seems for you not to be activism and seems to have your bless in this debate.
No, it is only besides the point regarding this particular question. You are welcome to take it to the streets of Brussel. I imagine that the local restaurant will do brisk business with the 200 or so people who will show.
I answered yes to the question and then I have only pointed out the inaccuracies and fallacies expressed by the Esperantists. Yes, I defend it use but I have not proposed to: 1. impose its use, I said it should be voluntary. It should be what the majority wants and 2. You can summarize everything I have said to a few words. To wit: At the present time English is a better option than Esperanto based on the number of active speakers of both languages. More people seem to prefer English to Esperanto, voluntarily and without government intervention.
3. I have shown a few statistics supporting my statements, EU statistics calculated by EU.
4. Through the debate several Esperantists have agree with almost all the statements I have stated and then went ahead and proposed the opposite.
I believe that Mr. Carlos’ views are very politically motivated due to his experiences in exile from Castro’s Cuba. I live in Southeast Florida and I real El Nuevo Herald, the daily of the Cuban exiles, daily. Their unfortunate experiences with the Castro regime/government have colored their political views in all matters, from local school board decisions to national and international politics.
I do not mock Mr. Carlos’ English per se but since he is the main proponent of Standard American English as a gobal lingua franca I feel that he is argumenting for a position that is damaging to himself. Though there are many people in my country who do indeed vote for politicians who would damage their own interests, I have little respect for them. This is but a sign of a lack of critical thinking.
Furthermore, I am making the point that I TOO had to acquire English as a second language and it has cost me very much time and energy – as well as humiliation. My acquisition of Esperanto was a lot smoother and with less emotional stress.
I am also making the point again that many who profess to speak one of the Englishes do so poorly and are the victims of discrimination. As one perceived by my peers to be a native speaker I have experienced their disdain behind the backs of the non-native speaker, the mockery of the foreign usage [escpecially pagmacatics] and pronunciation.
Just because at one time everyone used a horse and carriage and there were few gas stations (petrol stations?) and cars were expensive and roads not made for automotive traffic did not mean that we retained horses as a main means of transportation. Humans can and do progress.
Horses were a ‘natural’ means of transportation – cars an artificial means, but vastly better than using horses. I believe that those who argue for the introduction of Esperanto as an auxiliary language are simply following the course of human history. For the majority of us the Castro experience is irrelevent.
Sorry Kvasnak, you missed the point again. And you are a very narrow minded individual when it comes to coloring and twisting what other people say. I used the Cuba example because there are uncounted millions who can identify with it. Or are you denying how the communists ruined half of Europe and how they subjugated and exploited millions of Europeans. Again, like with the Puerto Rican, you do not have any idea about the Cuban exiles, so stop making generalizations you do not have any basis for nor any experience about. Just because you live in Southeast Florida (update, most Cuban exiles live in Southwest Florida, more exactly Miami-Dade, although there are sizable settlements in Naples and Tampa) and once drank one of those “awful things” they call coffee (by the way I used to love the stuff until I quit), and spoke with a few Cubans and maybe taught English to another few (if that is what you really do) It does not mean you are an expert.
Another update, I am not the main proponent of SAE, there are millions of people better qualified than me who do that. And you do not know me well enough to be able to ascertain if any of my positions and opinions, political or otherwise, are damaging to myself. I would like to see how you can substanciate such and affirmation.
Every individual previous experience will color his or her stance in every decision they make, political or otherwise. Like your experiences with your stupid teachers and other situations have colored you stance regarding the English language. Regarding critical thinking, I am not the one using half a statement to encompass the whole situation. And of course, it was smoother, you were an adult. Human are cruel and children are the cruelest so your talking “funny” made you a target and, sensitive soul that you are, you have dragged that trauma all your life..
I do not mind the discrimination, in many cases I have done much better with my lack of English than what they have done with their mastery of it.
You have said repeatedly that you have suffered a lot of disdain and humiliation from being perceived as a native speaker, although you do not consider yourself one. Well, here comes the mockery again. “escpecially pagmacatics” I could not understand what that means. If you wanted to say “specially pragmatics” then you have to be more careful with your spelling, which in your case should come naturally after all those years reviewing those incoherent and badly spelled English assignments. That is more up my third-world-uneducated-not having a doctorate-immigrant alley.
And English is progress, a lot more than Esperanto. Science, Economy, Commerce, Finance, etc. Sorry, I forgot the progress in the number of speakers in the last 150 years. Presently we, people who speak English well and bad, are over one billion vs about two million who speak Esperanto very well. And for the majority of you, I mean Europeans not Esperantists, the Castro experience is quite relevant, it is very similar, if not the same, as the experience of millions of Europeans who suffered communism, but you have not taken the time to really try to find out what it was about. So much for critical thinking.
Dear Mr. Carlos,
For the sake of all of us in this forum, please reread your entries or have someone edit them for grammaticality before posting. It is excrutiating trying to read your somewhat incoherent sentences. I have encountered this type of writing in my high school classes and I always make a point of helping my students better their communicativity. In this forum that is hardly possible.
Mr. Carlos, just in case you ran through school when they were teaching English, calling somebody only by their last name is offensive except in the armed forces. Once again you denude you ignorance of English pragmatics. But since you claim to be so proficient in Standard American English, I did not read further since you willfully chose to insult me with your introduction.
Yours,
Dr. Robb Kvasnak
Kvasnak, you are so full of it that you are bursting at the seams. Stop reviewing my posts and review yours before you post them. At least I have the excuse that I am, according to you, a simpleminded, uneducated, unarticulated individual. What is yours?, you boast about having an Ed.D. and then go ahead and make elementary school students mistakes. I have pointed them out. Why do you not show mine?
And it is good to know that you understand enough to be offended. But you should read the rest so you realize all the rubbish you are bestowing your good friends with.
To Alejandro Carlos:
You wrote “After all English is just a language!”
Not “just a language”, but a language used to conquer the rest of the world, if you know the words of Mr. Churchill.
“I am very much interested in the question of basic English. The widespread use of this would be a gain to us far more durable and fruitful than the annexation of great provinces”.
I loan the words of an English friend (so this time not in my “Flenglish” but in real British English):
“When the British Empire was at its richest the lower classes of its various peoples, including those in Britain, were desperately poor. When the British Empire was beginning to be overtaken by the American Empire, in 1943, Churchill made a speech at Harvard which was enthusiastically received by Americans, for he pointed out that there was a way of colonising countries without force of arms, by spreading the use of English as an international language.”
Yes, Leo, English is just a language and as such it will do you no harm. People on the other hand will.
A gun is just a gun and as such it will do no harm. But people will.
Catholicism is just a religion created to supposedly spread the word of a non-existing God, but the message was good, and peaceful. As such it will do you not harm. But people will.
Islam is just a religion, based on the same God, with a very similar message, with a good and peaceful intension. As such it will do you no harm. But people will.
Esperanto is just a language created as an international means of communication. The intentions of its creator were good, altruistic and peaceful. As such it will do you no harm. But people will.
Do not blame the tool for how its owner uses it. It is just a tool and as such it will do you no harm.
BUT PEOPLE WILL.
National-socialism was supposed to be peaceful and for the good of the people.
Communism is a beautiful philosophy, and was supposed to be good for the masses and its aim was to liberate the World of exploitative Capitalism.
People will use anything they can to harm other people. If they do not have something, then they will invent it.
And excuse me for being so extensive but your empty rhetorical led me to believe you were not getting the message. I hope that I was of help.
The World is not the same as 50 years ago. And people are becoming better every day.
If people do not change, then if Esperanto is adopted as the World Lingua Franca it too will be used to harm other people. If you truly believe that Esperanto can be used to unite the World and make it a better place it is not because Esperanto is magical and will change people. It is because you believe that people can change for the better and finally use something for its intended purpose and not to harm others.
People will do that, not Esperanto!
If that can be done with Esperanto then it can be done with English, or French, or Spanish or any other language because PEOPLE WILL DO IT not the language.
If it cannot be done with English, or French, or Spanish or any other language, then it cannot be done with Esperanto.
Now, dissect that and come up a few more nonsensical slogans. Slogans too can be used to do harm because people will use them to do harm.
I dare you to refute that. If the message still is too difficult to understand because English is so illogical, then you can ask Dr. Kvasnak (he does not like to be called by his last name, it offends him) to translate the message to Esperanto, after all he has a doctorate in the English language and I imagine he will be able to decipher my horribly bad compositions skills (I ran through school when they were teaching English). Once the message has been impeccably translated by our friend the Dr., by means of his superior English and Esperanto skills, then you, him and all other Esperantists can gather together and analyze the message, and maybe, just maybe you will be able to understand it.
There is nothing wrong with Esperanto, there is nothing wrong with French, there is nothing wrong with Spanish, there is nothing wrong with any of the thousands of languages in the World if they were to be used as the World Lingua Franca. But each and every one of them can be used, and have been used, to do harm, because people will use them to do harm.
I never said that Esperanto cannot be used to unite the World and make it a better place. It can.
I just said that English too can be used for that purpose, and that based on the present World situation it will be easier, quicker and less expensive to do it with English. And everybody will be better because of it. And the World will be a better place because of it.
I am just sorry I have forgotten the little Esperanto I learned 45 years ago (because I never found any practical use to it, that is why Remuŝ caught me using google translate) and that I could not explain this simple message in such a clear, concise, analytical and perfect language.
For the betterment of Mankind and the World!
Yours truly
Alejandro Carlos, B.Sc.
This was already handled years ago in http://remush.be/rebuttal/index.html#peace
Read particularly http://remush.be/rebuttal/index.html#252 :
English really started to compete with French as a international language on June 28th, 1919, that is long ago. Since then, England has used a lot of resources to increase the influence of its language, that was thought ill-suited for international diplomacy.
The return on investment is poor. We can’t say the world diplomacy improved. Must we consider this as a failure
Take a look at my answer to Robb.
1919 was almost a century ago, situation then was completely different to what it is now. The October Revolution triumph was newly minted and they were already showing their dark side. France was still a world power (militarily) with many colonies (few of which amount to much after a century has passed). The World was at it most violent point while French was the language of diplomacy. WWI was entirely a European thing. WWII was also an entirely European thing, until the US was dragged in to help its ally, England, saving Europe´s ass in the process. So much for diplomacy. The US also saved the Jewish people´s ass, when most of Europe, if not all, wanted them exterminated (they still do).
The British did everything in their power to come on top, so did Germany, France, Spain, etc. they just happen to actually wind up on top. Ingenious little bastards.
Regarding the return on the investment, are you actually saying that the return on the investment with English was poor? Really? Come on! look at the map.
Little England begot: The USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada just to mention a few. What did France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc. begot? Anything good?
A failure of diplomacy. Well let´s see: The Berlin Wall, the Cold War, nuclear warheads in the Caribbean, should I go on?
But my point is that whether I am in agreement with all that or not.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LANGUAGE. It was an entirely human thing, it would have happened the same way if other languages were spoken by the same players.
So do not kill the messenger!
Look forward to the future, it looks better and brighter than ever before. In any language. (Well not Arabic)
I also want to thank you, and Robb, and all the others. You convinced me. I am going to learn Esperanto all over again! So that I can enlighten those Esperantists that still do not know the true.
It will be better with English!
PD. And Remuŝ, that is just propaganda, they do not answer any question nor they present real supporting evidence for any of their statements. it is just like religion and communism, they offer a lot, they give nothing and you have to believe in what they say, on faith!
@ Alejandro Carlos
>You convinced me. I am going to learn Esperanto all over again!
1) You are welcome to the club of liars and propagandists. I am sure you can teach us a lot.
>It will be better with English!
PD. And Remuŝ, that is just propaganda, they do not answer any question nor they present real supporting evidence for any of their statements.
3) I didn’t find any questions. You just gave us your opinion. Are you really done or must you repeat your litany: “English is more useful than Esperanto: it has more speakers.”
Only very few people realized that in 1887, and they all died with that precious knowledge.
4) Your’s and others’ opinions have already been answered in 2005; see http://remush.be/rebuttal/ .
I hoped to see something new in the interventions in this forum, but I found little worth adding.
So did I!
And again you convinced me. Élet Eszperantó (may not be Esperanto but pretty close, until I learn Esperanto again).
Things change, people change, the World changes, everything changes except Esperanto and people´s perception of Esperanto. Maybe that is why there still are only a handful of Esperanto speakers.
There are about 2 million Esperanto speakers in the World, there are more than 500 million people in Europe, if all Esperanto speakers lived in Europe the chances of bumping into one is 2/500, in the World 2/7000. The chances of finding an English speaker in continental Europe is 100/500 or 1/5(approximately), in the World it is 1.2/7. Definitely so much worse.
Going to another country and finding an Esperanto speaker, fortuitously, is akin to winning the Lotto Big Prize.
For sure the chances of knowing the World through Esperanto are so much better.
And I do not want to talk about culture because it is so embarrassing how many more contributions have been made to World culture in Esperanto than in English, Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Chinese, etc.
And the benefits! Come on! People in their ignorance do not realize they can learn Esperanto in a couple of weeks and be fully bilingual in another 3 or 4 weeks more. And then they can go out into the World and get a very well paid and rewarding job, that not only will make their life better but that will provide enough discretionary income to travel the whole World and learn about it by talking with all those Esperanto speakers scattered throughout the World.
Hey! Don´t hold me, I am going to learn Esperanto!
@ Alejandro Carlos
You keep harping on the same string. I doubt you read http://remush.be/rebuttal/index.html#number
You keep sending me the same useless link!
And no,I do not read the same propaganda twice. It already was a waste of time the first time.
Do you think it’s worth reacting to http://remush.be/rebuttal/index.html#229
As this is not strictly part of this thread, contact me at http://remush.be/senduxx.html
No. It is inconsequent.
http://www.theworldlanguage.org
In recent weeks and months I have finally slowly begun to admit to myself (after many years of being an Esperantist trying desperately to convince myself of its worth) that although Esperanto itself IS worthy, the “community” attached to it is anything but. There is a severe problem with obligatory ideological homogeneity of liberalism, especially manifested as hatred of anything and anyone conservative, especially conservative Christian, either in truth, or de facto because of the way conservatives are treated. We are routinely berated for our beliefs, told we are stupid and/or intolerant, belittled, scorned, condescended to, and even flat out lied about. A double standard in most Esperanto discussion forums exists where liberals and atheists are allowed to violate Terms of Service agreements, using the most degrading and hateful language against conservatives but, oh, if a conservative dares to retaliate in kind, their posts are deleted and sometimes accounts closed. And if you happen to catch the ire of an administrator, even when you’re trying to play nice, they make it all but impossible with their harranguing. Recently after defying one of the administrators of Lernu.net, Erin Piateski, and returning to the forums under a new name, an act which is NOT addressed anywhere in the site’s Terms of Use (neither advised against nor even prohibited), she deleted my new account. Why? Because it was me. My first post was to announce a scavenger hunt the prize to which was my collection of Esperanto textbooks, dictionaries, and translated literature that I already had English translations for. Someone responded with some nonsense and I posted back “As Jane Austen once wrote, ‘I have not the pleasure of understanding you'”. For the grave sin of all this hateful language I posted, the thread was deleted and my account summarily cancelled.
Now some will try to justify her blatantly hostile actions by telling you of my history of “contention” within the forum. That may be true, but my “contention” was only in response to hateful and belittling messages to me, some by the megalomaniacal administrator herself!!
And it’s not just me! Oh, no. I’ve heard from over a dozen people who name Erin and her heavyhandedness as *the* reason they left Lernu, and three of those abandoned Esperanto altogether, in disgust, citing her actions and receipt of similar treatment in other venues. And, to be fair, it wasn’t just her. Her little minions joined in the harassment from almost the beginning.
I will probably be an Esperanto speaker for the rest of my days. I will continue to attend our local meet-up, as long as it continues, if only in support of the others that come.
I will not be burning any of my Esperanto books, but I will also not be renewing my membership in any Esperanto organizations; I will do no more “varbing, (recruiting for the cause)” and my will has been changed to divert all the assets that I had originally steered toward the Esperanto movement (the mid-5-figure range if anyone is interested; sorry, Esperanto-USA and Radio Verda) and give them to other, more worthy, causes.
You’re probably asking why the sudden attitude change. Well, August 19 saw more knife blades to my back from so-called “samideanoj” and I’m sick of it. The slanderous language, mockery, and bullying I have received (especially the ones that were posted after my blog entry of August 19) from other Esperantists around the globe has shown me that the “community” (a term I now use very lightly) is not worthy of any more of my time or money. I wash my hands of it.
Esperanto had such promise, but alas, the spirit of “more Zamenhof than thou”(no pun intended) not to mention the hypocrisy, arrogance, bigotry, slander, and condemnation I have received in the past few months over a my conservative Christian beliefs and opinions, not to mention my use of a perfectly correct, Zamenhofian, Esperanto word (albeit one that is rarely used, even though it is used in the Ekzercaro and also defined in the Universala Vortaro) has shown me that my time and energy can be put to better use elsewhere.
I wonder, though……….would the reaction to my use of that perfectly correct Esperanto word have been different had it not been out of religious obligation but out of a sense of equality and tolerance and other such nice liberal buzzwords? I guess that will never be known for sure………however, based on some of the more outrageous comments I read back in August, I really think it would have. It’s sad, really, that a community of people that touts itself to be oh-so-liberal and tolerant would allow such hatred and intolerance (no matter what the cause) to go unchallenged within its ranks. Unless and until the Esperanto movement reigns in people such as Erin Piateski, et al., and changes its attitude toward any and all who are not leftists, there will NEVER be a chance of becoming the sole official language (or even official bridge language) of the EU.
And yes, Robert Kvasnakk, you can run and tattle to Erin that I’m revealing her true colors, but in a venue where she has no power to silence me. She can put THAT in her pipe and smoke it!
Welcome Mosier! from an atheist who is conservative enough to understand that there are ideas worth preserving and liberal enough to believe you can have any belief, religious or not, you want, so far as you do not browbeat others into accepting yours and renouncing theirs.
Unfortunately, here Esperantists as had made this debate their proselytizing target and are bare sword in hand ready to decapitate any idea and silence any voice which is not beating their drums.
Here also you will be bully, and belittled, and browbeaten if you are unwilling to carry their flag or at least accept that their word is the gospel and that they are better and know better than everybody else.
I wish you well in your quest of unmasking hypocrisy.
And Robb, apparently it is not only here that you like to go bullying, offending and belittling others for not agreeing with you.
Well, I still prefer my bad English to your perfect Esperanto and I also prefer my B.S. to your Ed.D. (pun intended)
Actually, Alejandro, Robert sticks mainly with the condescending type of posts. He’s never been actually rude or nasty, as have others. But, yes, while they can belittle, etc. here, they are not in charge, and have no power to silence those of us who have the courage to call out the naked emperor.
Any conservative or Christian conservative readers here who are tempted to explore Esperanto, I will advise you not to waste your time or money.
As for the EU, my vote would actually be for Afrikaans. It’s close enough to Dutch and that with its heritage, it can be considered European. It has simplified its grammar so as to be just as easy for foreigners to learn as Esperanto.
But Welcome nevertheless. And Afrikaans sounds as good as any other and better than most.
Mr. Mosier, I’m very sorry to hear this, and I understand you’re upset. Yet I have a hard time believing that your religious or political position was the reason for your account being deleted. I have been a Lernu user for two years, as of today, and am a conservative Christian who makes no secret of my beliefs. My very first post was about translating Chick tracts! And I’ve remained politically incorrect ever since. Yet my account remains, and I can’t recall a single instance in which Erin has been hostile to me. Other users have, but she hasn’t. Honestly, I just don’t know what to make of your situation.
Maybe I’m too idealistic, but I feel that Esperantujo needs the participation of Christians, and that we can’t change a situation by backing out of it. Jesus said that the world will hate us as it hated Him. Hostility is to be expected. Yet, though the opposition is very loud, there are a significant number of Christian and conservative Esperantists, and also many who are willing to be friends despite our differences.
Ĉion bonan al vi!
Christa, try doing something out of religious obligation that she doesn’t like; thee’ll see hostility. Did thee know she even said using “thee” to her was offensive?? Yeesh.
Also, Christa, did thee not see my post about the Esperanto book scavenger hunt? That’s all I wrote, along with why I was leaving the movement and the bitch closed my account AND deleted the entire thread. Her lastest tyranny has NOTHING to do with anything other than it was I who wrote the post. That says she is no longer fit to be admin of that group.
I have noticed that she’s not the only one who spazzes out over your use of “thee” and “thy”, and I never did (and still don’t) understand what all the fuss is about.
I haven’t really seen a strong correlation between conservativism or Christianity, and people leaving the forum, but I’m just a user and don’t see everything. I haven’t the least notion what happened on August 19; I was on vacation most of that month. In any case, just because the leftists are loud, doesn’t mean they necessarily represent the community as a whole. And even if they do, well, the only thing I can think of to do about it is to be a non-leftist Esperantist, and hope that somehow that will encourage others to do the same. That’s my decision (as I said, maybe I’m too idealistic), and I find Esperanto and Esperantujo to be worthwhile to me. Obviously, what you do with your time, energy, and money is your decision, and I am not in a position to try to change it. Bonŝancon ĉiuokaze.
No, I never saw that thread (nor did I see your last comment until after I posted mine; we must’ve been typing at the same time). That thread apparently was posted and deleted while I was offline. I am not in a position to justify or condemn Erin’s actions; I don’t know her motives. And even if I did – even if you could prove to me, conclusively, that Erin is not qualified to be admin, it wouldn’t make any difference because I have no control over what goes on with the site administration! My only role in the “teamo” is to correct Ana Pana exercises. Otherwise, I’m just an ordinary user who just makes the best of the situation as it is.
I have been quite happy with my experience at verduloj.com; are you familiar with it?
At any rate, this doesn’t really seem like the place for this discussion. Just an observation. :-/
No, Christa, she is the only one who “spazzes out” at my Plain Speech. Others may not understand it or may think it odd, but all are like “whatever”. Nobody else has ever told me to not speak to them unless I use “you” with them. She has what I call a “superiority complex.” As the Dowager Countess on Downton Abbey once quipped, “You give these little people power and it goes to their heads like strong drink!”
Well, I’m pretty sure there’s a personality clash between you and Erin, though that doesn’t account for these other dozen people you’re talking about. Whether there’s something more deep and/or pervasive going on I really don’t know. “Any conservative or Christian conservative readers here who are tempted to explore Esperanto, I will advise you not to waste your time or money” just doesn’t seem warranted to me; as I have found it to be worthwhile to me. But as I said, you’re entitled to your decision, and I’m entitled to mine. At any rate, I don’t want to continue this discussion here, not merely because it is off-topic, but primarily because, though I can read all the comments as they come in my inbox, in order to comment I have to actually come to this page, and it takes *forever* to load! And also I’m pretty sure I’ve said all I have to say on this point.
There was a bit of news this weekend that I found particularly troubling concerning the English language. MSCBS reported that France’s capabilities to attack Raqqa were made possible because certain intelligence sources gave the French military access to information that generally is only shared by: the USA, Canada, GB, New Zealand, and Australia.
This is a type of bias that is having a direct effect on all of our lives. Basically they are saying that there is a non-official alliance between English-speaking countries that share intelligence not offered to our European allies. This is the type of secondary influence of a language, a type of tribalism that harks back to the darkest eras of mankind: you who speak my language as a mother tongue are more of an ally than others.
The Commonwealth of Nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations specialy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations#Plan_G_and_inviting_Europe_to_join
It is an historic fact and although the USA is notably the only one who is not a member, it has always maintained very good relations with the commonwealth and consider many of those countries close allies. Again, it is a political thing, nothing to do with the language. It will be the same regardless of the language they were sharing. And again, those are actions thought out and carry out by people, they just happen to speak the language..
On another note. “you who speak my language as a mother tongue are more of an ally than others” is born out of multilingualism and multiculturalism which of course came out of multi-tribalism. But I thought you were in favor of that, Esperanto being the ideal vehicle to respect and nurture all the “multi”. What´s is good for the goose…
Chaps- I think it would be jolly good if we all used Latin for official correspondence and discussions-fair game eh ?
Refer to http://remush.be/rebuttal/Sapir.pdf
In the first place let’s not forget that was said in 1931, Sapir did not have anyway of knowing how things were going to turn out. They did turn out, just not the way he wanted.
From your quote: This community is based on transnational functions of an economic; technological, scientific and ideological nature”
This already happened and not the way Sapir wanted or expected.
Isn’t that the community you guy criticize so much because it already speaks English and is not interested in Esperanto?
Another quote: “It is quite a mistake to suppose that English speaking persons’ command of French or German is psychologically in the least equivalent to a Frenchman’s or a German’s command of his native language. All that is managed, in the great majority of cases, is a fairly adequate control of the external features of the foreign language. This incomplete Control has, however, the immense advantage of putting the native speaker and the foreigner on a footing of approximate mutual understanding, which is sufficient for the purpose desired.”
The same happens the other way around or whenever an adult learns a new language because he will continue to think in his own language and be influenced by how he learned the things he learned. That includes Esperanto as a second language. The only way to remove this is to learn the language as a native does, from birth or at least from a very early age. For Esperanto as well as English. Doing that will make Esperanto the native language, as well as it will do it with English, but that will defeat the neutrality of Esperanto, according to what you guys say Esperanto aim is, to wit: Never to become the native language, to always be the second language. Well, apparently, that will not be sufficient.
It probably was a good idea in the 19 century or in 1931. Things have changed.
Now the goal has also changed. Now it is: “One World, One People, One Language”. If we all speak the same language we will not need a second language.
Another quote from Sapir: “The romanticism of the past should never bind the hand or daunt the will of the future”
> […]to learn the language as a native does[…]
Esperanto is not a replacement (what English —> in your opinion <— should become).
Learning Esperanto should never be done and the expense of the mother language.
However, it is recommended to facilitate and improve the knowledge of the ML.
You did not read http://remush.be/rebuttal/index.html#250 or did not understand the implications.
What Sapir wrote in 1931 is still valid today, if not more than ever.
“However, it is recommended to facilitate and improve the knowledge of the ML”
So according to you, Esperantists, people can never attain native level proficiency in English except those who are actually native to the language, and Esperanto should be taught as a native language not be use instead of it but to “facilitate and improve the knowledge of the ML”. You actually want people to believe they will be better at their OWN native language if they learn Esperanto. I imagine that also include English native speakers.
If that is not demagoguery I do not know what Better Sounding name to call it.
Sorry if I appear to be a little slow on the take but are you REALLY! saying that Germans, French, Spaniards, British, Americans, Russian, Chines, Japanese, etc. will improve their skills and understanding of their native languages by learning Esperanto? Is that what you are saying?
And then you go ahead and call English speaking people arrogant.
And yes I read the thingy, at least part of it before I fell sleep. Sorry but demagoguery does that to me. Too much of it from the communist party. And since I am calling it demagoguery you know I understood it, even if you do not say so openly.
And yes I believe that at the end people will requiere just one language. Whichever that language may be. That will take care of the misunderstanding and the inequality. I think you agree with that. You just do not say it because it will show Esperantists true colors. They want Esperanto to be the ONE LANGUAGE as much as others want other languages to be the one. Except Esperanto´s way is more deceptive.
“We want Esperanto to be used in all aspects of daily live, we want Esperanto to be taught in all schools, in all countries of the World since the very first grades to the highest levels of education, we want you to use Esperanto at church and in the supermarket, so foreigners will know how you worship and what you eat, we want you to use Esperanto to facilitate and improve understanding of your own native language, and of course we want you to use Esperanto to talk to your family, your lover and your friends to avoid misunderstandings, Esperanto being the superior language that it is. Of course you can still use your native language occasionally.
I still think my way is less deceptive. “One World, One race, One language”
… at the expense …
To Alejandro Carlos:
You wrote “You actually want people to believe they will be better at their OWN native language if they learn Esperanto.”
This was also my own experience. I now understand better my own mother tongue. It seems unbelievable, but it is true. You can experience it yourself.
As you like to phase it. “You did not read or understand the implication.”
By the way I am glad that it helped you understand better in your mother tongue, although it tells a lot about your own abilities and opinion about languages.
But the experience of one person is nor enough to reach the World shattering conclusion that you have pontificated. It just goes to show that you were really ignorant about your own language. I have said it before and I say it now. Being a native speaker does not make you an expert in any language. Ignorant and illiterate persons are quite common in all languages.
Again, and then you dare to call Americans arrogant.
>[…] Americans arrogant […]
I worked one year in the States and one in UK and had no occasion during that time to meet an arrogant native English person.
That’s why I doubt you are born American.
I won’t be surprised if you were a troll Esperantist trying to put some life in this boring forum. :-)
If you are : I strongly disapprove of this behaviour.
All this has already been handled extensively elsewhere (and politely).
I don’t believe I can add anything more.
I am glad about your positive experience. But your fellow Esperantists do no share your good opinion of them. For most of them an English speaking person is a very close relative of the Devil, intent on eradicating each and every person or thing that does not agree with them. Just read the posts.
By the way, I have never claimed to be a native English speaking person, however I am 100% americano, not a US born americano but American nevertheless.
But that goes to tell you do not read, because I have expressed more than once than I am Cuban, and a proud one at that. You do not need to a native English speaking person to favor English as a potential Lingua Franca of the World.
You are not a native Esperanto speaker and favor Esperanto.
Leo is right. This may be difficult to believe for those who have never used Esperanto intensively, but it is absolutely true. My two daughters improved in all their other languages – English and German as well as their native French and Irish, by leraning Esperanto. The suddenly understood what adverbs, participles etc. mean, because their ending are regular in Esperanto – all nouns end in -o; all adjectives in -a; all derived adverbs in -e; all active particples in -anta, -inta or -onto (i.e. present, past and future); and passive participles in -ata, -ita and -ota (again for present, past and future respectively). No other living language has this kind of regularity.
> For most of them an English speaking person is a very close relative of the Devil.
They must like the devil a lot, because they elected Marc Fettes as president of UEA in 2013.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fettes
So most of them are not what you think they are.
There is such a diversity between Esperantists, that you could even find some agreeing with you.
Never say ALL E-ists think that ….
What is the size of your sample? 3 or 4?
You are right I do not know that many. I was referring to the ones here that like to equate English language with governments, past and present, when they want to argue in favor of Esperanto and against English. I should have been more precise.
I’m sorry, Sean, I call BS. I learned what a participle was and what an adverb was long before I even knew about Esperanto’s existance. Anyone who claims they didn’t know a noun from a participle until they learned Esperanto is either very stupid or very lazy or else had very bad or lazy teachers of their native language. There is no excuse for not knowing those things even if one has never encountered Esperanto before.
Thanks Mosier. I could not have put it better. I was going to say that if they learned them then it was because they took the time to study them, something that apparently they have not done before. At least not appropriately.
I can also say that when I learned English it help me be better in Spanish, not because English is magical or extraordinaire but simply because when I was going to school I hated Spanish, it was boring, tedious work whose only reward was your teacher telling you that you screwed up again. When I studied English, on my own volition, I finally realized my teacher was right all along, I was not studying as much as I should have.
And Remus. That is what happens, when people study any language, voluntarily without any compulsion other than the desire to learn it for its own sake, they become better at their own language because of the understanding they adquire on how a language works.
I really liked the thing about the troll, I could not but chuckle when I read it. Well if I am then I am a very big one at almost 6 feet. And regarding Mark Fettes, I would say “nice going” to the Esperantists who voted for him, I read about him and he looks like a very capable fellow. And to the English language proponents I would remind them that nothing is more damaging than a fifth columnist.
> fifth columnist
We have a plethora of repentant 5th columnists who turned coat… close to 100% …
So, from reading your comment, should I surmise that almost 100% of Esperantists are native English speakers that find their own language confusing and difficult and now advocate a simpler language or people who wanted to learn English but found it too difficult and confusing and since they could not make it in English now they advocate a simpler language.
Well I disagree. I believe that Esperantists are as smart as anybody else and that they could be good at English if they wanted to. They just prefer the more simplistic Esperanto way.
You misread my comment, because you wanted to. Take care not to become an expert on misreading.
About 100% Esperantists like their mother language, and don’t want it to be replaced by another.
To know the proportion of English-speaking-Esperantists, consult the statistics of UEA. That is how anybody having a scientific education would proceed.
You could also investigate how many Esperantists know several languages, compared with the normal population. It would be interesting to know why.
And you are right – they are good enough in English as well, and realistic about it.
Wild languages are indeed confusing and difficult, even for the natives.
Can you guess: why is the normal reading development of the English-speaking children delayed compared to children from other European countries? (see Seymour et al., 2003).
BTW French is also doing badly. Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish are doing much better.
How would do Esperanto?
No Remus, simply, you were not too specific or explicit.
(Hopefully you are not as Dr. Knasvak who dislike using a dictionary despite being a language teacher.)
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/plethora
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/fifth-column
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/turncoat
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/repentant
Your words.
“We have a plethora of repentant 5th columnists who turned coat… close to 100% …”
I understood that almost 100% of Esperantists were fifth columnists, that is working against their enemy from within, and then repented and jumped ship to the other side. Which mean they when back to the enemy they were initially working against, that is the English side. Not a well-constructed sentence, meaning wise.
And when I used the term fifth columnist was a humorous way, responding to what I interpreted as a joke on your part by calling me a troll (you were joking weren´t you?) to indicate he was a native speaker of English working for the Esperanto movement. A very capable and able person with great qualifications, as I immediately went ahead a noted, further indicating my admiration for his abilities by stating that we, the English language proponents, should be aware that we have a worthy opponent capable of damaging our cause from his knowledge of the English language and his other knowledge in other areas.
I even went ahead and agreed with you in that learning a language (not just Esperanto) can make you better at your own language, for different reasons to the one you stated. That is, not because Esperanto will make you better at your own language, but because studying a new language voluntarily for the sake of it will show you how badly you studied yours in the first place and will encourage you to “re-study” your language.
I do not need to research the UEA statistics, in the first place I was not the one quoting statistics and in the second, even if all Esperantists were English speakers, which they are not, they would still be too few.
Regarding being good in English, and that being OK, just remind the group of other Esperantists herein, that claim that it is impossible to learn English to an appropriate level of fluency because, according to themselves, they have been studying English for centuries and still do not speak the language; and to those who despite being English teachers claim people studying the language cannot learn the language because the language is too difficult, and not because they are bad teachers. People study Math, Physics, Chemistry, Statistics and many other difficult subjects, in English and other language more difficult than English, and they learn them. Please do them the favor of pointing them in the right direction so they can practice Esperanto and English with their fellow Esperantists.
There are more people who speak several languages, none of them Esperanto, than Esperanto speakers, poly-lingual or not. They like languages, I among them, and not because Esperanto give them any special abilities.
Additionally, how well children read is not the fault of the language but of the educational system, which in the USA have never been too good to start with, at the elementary and secondary levels, they are also failing in math, science and many other subjects and nobody is saying it is the fault of Math or of the other subjects. So place the blame were it belong, the people not the language. University level, on the other hand, is a completely different ball game with a great deal of American universities being top notch.
Children in Europe may be doing OK, even in Spain, but in other countries including Spanish speaking countries in Central and South America, they are actually not doing that well. Again, it is the educational system not the language´s fault.
Now, who is misreading the message? Or purposefully twisting the meaning of the message?
And I advocate the use of English as a Lingua Franca from a practical point of view, not a political one. Although I favor the right over the left, politically, I am not blind to its shortcomings. I just consider it an easier and better way of reaching the goal line. The left demonstrated for many years that they were a really bad choice for the development and improvement of Mankind, further proving it when they failed. I know that first hand from having lived in a leftish country.
I advocate in favor of the English language, the American and British governments will have to do their own advocacy.
About the 5th column, my mistake, you are right.
About numbers, you are right. There are more … (take you pick) than Esperantists. (You repeated that countlessly: this is your main argument)
You are right to rely on numbers for short term decisions.
What about the future of our children, or their children.
The investment in Esperanto is so small, and the expected benefit so large, that it is sin to ignore it.
Now it’s you turn to repent.
I am not one to shy away from my mistakes, which by the way are plentiful. As I have shown herein in multiple occasions. In others, I simply do not believe I am mistaken, just by giving me a different point of view or opinion does not make mine wrong.
And I disagree with you regarding the longevity of the solutions obtained based on numbers. It is not a short term fix, on the contrary, in most cases, if not all, the solution will be a permanent one, but only if the numbers used were correct. of course.
I will agree with you that Esperanto is a good solution if used as Lingua Franca, I have said that before.
I do not agree with the over simplistic point of view that Esperanto is the best solution just because it is a simplified, regularized, constructed language which is easier to learn than other languages, including English. That may be true, but people still have to dedicate time to its learning, time to practice it and time to increase their vocabulary and learn how to use the new words correctly. The grammar may be simpler and easier, but still you have to study it to learn it. I mean, not even honest Esperantists believe that the language can be mastered in just a few weeks. That is simply not true and no amount of propaganda will make it so.
I also agree that any other language, which is not semantically limited, will also be a good solution. They just vary in the amount of effort a person has to invest to learn it. My opinion is that any language will be a good solution, the question is: How do we make 7 billion people learn the language?
By convincing them to learn the language. That is the tricky part. If people are not interested, there is no amount of “teaching” that will make them learn. That is what make Esperanto easier for the people who study it. They want to learn and it is for that reason they make the time and put the effort. That is true because there is not practical, monetary benefit attached to learning Esperanto. With other languages, including English, many people study it because they want to learn it for the sake of it, for those becoming proficient is just a matter of time. However, many others study English for the perceived, real or imaginary according to the specific case, practical or monetary benefits. They do not want to learn the language for the sake of it but for an expected benefit. For these learning will be more difficult.
And now, why I advocate English over Esperanto.
There is a lot more interest worldwide to learn English than to learn Esperanto, for whatever reasons.
There is a larger benefit package associated with learning English than with Esperanto, in the short and long term. The benefits do not go away with time; they just continue to grow for some or level off for others.
There is a considerably larger amount of people that already speak English, some better than others. There is a very small amount of people that already speak Esperanto, again some better than others.
A much larger initial investment is needed to take Esperanto to the position of World Lingua Franca than with English. There is a lot more already invested in English infrastructure.
There are a lot more people learning English, voluntarily and without the need of government subsidies, than there are Esperanto students.
There are a lot more countries with English as their de facto or official language.
English is already used as a communication means in most aspects of interaction among countries.
Esperanto is easier to learn than English. English is easier to learn than most other languages.
Esperanto grammar is easy, English grammar is easier than most other grammars.
Esperanto pronunciation is regular and predictable, English pronunciation on the other hand is a bitch.
Time and, generalized and standardized instruction will keep Esperanto pronunciation and grammar with little change, but will help regularize English pronunciation and probably simplify is grammar a little more.
A now some numbers.
There are over one thousand million people that already speak English to a certain level. There is less than 3 million Esperanto speaker that already speak Esperanto to a certain level.
There are trillions of dollars (or Euros if you wish) already invested in English infrastructure. There is little, almost not existing by comparison, investment in Esperanto infrastructure.
There are more people starting to learn English for the first time, every year, than the totality of the existing Esperanto speakers, just in China.
And I can continue but it becomes boring after a while.
So yes, I agree with you. Esperanto is a very good solution. If you are honest with yourself then you will have to agree with me that English is a much better solution. In the short term and in the long term. And once the goal is attained and every person in the World speak the same language the costs of maintenance are not much different. And the perceived, real or not, advantage that English native speakers are supposed to have will simply vanish.
Discrimination is a human thing, not a language thing, it will exist regardless of the language used, and will continue even after every person speak the same language. That is a different problem requiring a different solution. Taking advantage of one position against others is a human thing and will continue regardless of the language spoken, it requires a different solution.
The rest is just politics, so people pick their side based on their views.
@ Alejandro Carlos November 26th, 2015
Thank you for stepping on the Via Dolorosa, the absolution is in reach.
1)> […] numbers. It is not a short term fix […]
You are stepping backwards.
When evaluating the benefits of a new technology (doesn’t matter which), one does not consider the number of current users of the old one, but the potentials: the number of those who are dissatisfied with it, adding those who could take advantage of the new. With the world becoming a global village, more people than ever need the most efficient communication method. There is no comparable precedent situation.
2) There must be a flaw in your demonstration. French was the favoured language for people of my generation. English was not even a competitor because “ill-suited for international exchanges”. You will reply that the situation changed. And on my turn I’ll reply back: indeed it changed again.
3a) >… time to practice it and time to increase their vocabulary.
That is just the strong point of Esperanto.
3b) > the language can be mastered in just a few …?…
to reach the level people reach with English after …??????????… (? depends on the level you want to reach, on average x 10)
4) How do we make 7 billion people learn the language?
By adding one at a time and stopping denigrating the language (Thanks for not doing that)
5) there is no practical, monetary benefit attached to learning Esperanto.
Indeed. This is not a commercial enterprise contrarily to English. Some regret it, others want to keep it “as is”. Wait and see.
6)There are trillions of dollars ([and] Euros […]) already invested in English infrastructure more people learning English, voluntarily.
That voluntarily is biased in the direction of the LHS
7) Discrimination is a human thing.
So what? Let it be?
8) And once […] every person in the World speaks [English] the advantage that English native speakers are supposed to have will simply vanish.
That “NewSpeak English” of the future will not have anything common with English. That is the price natives must be ready to pay for “English” becoming international. Are they ready?
BTW the French were at the time. Now they changed their mind and want to keep French for themselves.
E-ists want to keep their mother language evolving its own way.
9) The rest is just politics
Even a 1000 Km walk, starts with a first step. Let’s do first things first.
+10) Esperantists must be careful not to let Esperanto become first language anywhere. Being international justifies some sacrifices :-)
Actually, if you go back you will see I have said the same in more than one occasion.
Now, demagoguery is easy to spot. No I am not stepping backward, although in some cases it may be necessary and useful, this is not one of those.
1- Here we are not evaluating a new technology, but to follow your analogy, I would say in in any case we are looking at competing technologies. They both do exactly the same. Like for example CD and USB drives. One is flashy, permanent and almost eternal and unbreakable. The other is less so, but it is more useful, or at least that is people´s impression. So they go for the second one. Popularity will take one down the road of success. In our case, English despite all its detractor and critics is way more popular than Esperanto. People consider it more useful. Or financially speaking, people believe there is a greater likelihood they will get a return on their investment.
2- Exactly. French was it at one time. But in addition to that it is very difficult to learn and even more difficult to pronounce correctly than English or Spanish, as you point out, “things changed”. I agree. French was the first language I tried to learn way back when a was a child because it was perceived to be useful and remunerative, in addition to being the “language of Love and Diplomacy”. And pardon for disagreeing, but English has always been a competitor to French, being mortal enemies from way before they were civilized. In commerce, English quickly became more important and then came other aspects of human life, finance, industry, etc. Indeed, it was “ill-suited for civilized exchange”, but it was perfect for the plebeian task lesser people were interested in. And things continued to change, in favor of English.
3- ??? Indeed! Because Esperanto is always portrayed as easy to learn, of having an easy grammar, and a great vocabulary, easily mastered because of word derivation. It is true! But, still, you need time. Different people need different amount of time. Different people will attain different fluency level, depending on their needs and desires. That is exactly what I tell my students. English is easy to learn, the grammar is easy, easier than most, great vocabulary, words roots from all over the cultural spectrum. Pronunciation is difficult but easier than many other important languages. It is true! But, still, you need time. Different people need different amount of time. Different people will attain different fluency level, depending on their needs and desires. And once you have attained certain level you can start using it wherever you go, without having to look for speakers in the “International Association of English Speaker” ;-). And thing continued to change in favor of English.
Check this: Criticism of Esperanto: “Difficulty in achieving fluency” (not my words) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Esperanto. Those are the word of an Esperantist.
4- I do not have to denigrate the language, there is nothing wrong with it, that have never been my position nor the reason I advocate English. However, Esperantists constantly try to denigrate English as a mean of gaining adepts for their cause.
5- My point exactly. I am not denying there is gains to be made from teaching English, and people is Ok with that because they are studying English so they can get some benefits too, monetary and otherwise, now, in this moment, not for my great-great-great-grandchildren, but for me. That is the appeal of English. That is why things continue to change in favor of English.
6- We are all biased. (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bias). I do not deny there is a concerted effort to push people toward English. Although not as much form governments as it used to be, today is more from individuals trying to make a buck from the perception of utility of English. Are you denying that there is a concerted effort to guide people toward Esperanto? Whatever the reasons. No you cannot. There is even and International Movement to take Esperanto to the masses. Esperanto has more organizations for the promotion of Esperanto than English, in comparison. And I can accept the good things about Esperanto, how come that Esperantists cannot accept the goods thing about English? Because that will help the continuation of change in English favor.
7- NOOOO! Discrimination is bad and it need to be resolved. So is inequality and wealth distribution (now I am sounding like you;-) But is it NOT a language thing and it will be not cured with the adoption of a particular language. People can and will be discriminated against in Esperanto as well, despite the original ideology and all other Manifestos in between.
8- They do not have a choice! That is progress! That is why American English is so different from English 200 years ago and from English in England. They did not have any control on how the language evolved. Once other people started to emigrate and started to learn English, and people from other parts of the world started to learn English (their own doing from promoting it). Presently, they have even less control, over 35 % of the population in the USA is Hispanic, that in not counting the rest. But, and this is an extremely huge but that Esperantists keep denying will happen, Esperanto will not have any control over the evolution of the language once it is out of the controlled pan of the Esperantist Movement and into the crucible fire of the general public use. And I sorry if I disagree again, but French always wanted French for themselves, they barely tolerate other people´s bad pronunciation because it was for their benefit. And the situation made them feel superior, which is something they thought they were and still think they are. You only have to look at a French´s face when you try to speak French with them.
9- I agree. English trek started over 1000 years ago and have become a race in the last 50 years. Esperanto will have to do more than just walk if it wants to catch up.
But what I meant is the that the promotion of Esperanto has been, and is, tainted with the inclusion of leftish slogans, to the detriment of its chances of acceptance. After all the authors of those slogans failed to deliver on their promises.
10- That is more than a Utopia, it is a chimera. You should read about immigrants, immigration and the acquisition of a new language. Besides having read about it, I experienced it firsthand since I was an immigrant. I do not think that Esperanto will ever become the Universal Lingua Franca of the World, but if it does, you will see it change into something that is nothing like it is today. And you will see how it will affect the use of all other languages. And you will see how people reject their mother tongues in favor of the new, more useful one. You like language, I like language, but unfortunately most people do not. They just learn it because they did not have a choice and they are not interested in having to deal with two, three of more languages. For that they need to purposely study a different language, they wo not want that, not unless they have to.
11- As I have said before. I advocate English for practical reasons, but that will mean nothing if people choose a different path. Ultimately, the people will choose and I will be OK with whatever they choose. I will not have any choice, and neither will you.
It have been nice talking with you, hopefully we will cross paths again.
” For most of them (esperantists) an English speaking person is a very close relative of the Devil”
Please, Alejandro, don’t change the reality to YOUR way seeing it. It is a dishonest way “debating”.
DO YOU REALLY know “most” of the esperantists, are you “nearly” God? That is ridiculous!
“Most of the esperantists” DO think that every human being has the same rights, and because of that, do NOT agree with the fact, that a little part of humans received an unfair advantage, because they learnt english as a mother tongue.
MOST of esperantists LOVE language diversity, which is endangered by the huge use of “globish”, a language which is NOT well spoken, but instrumentalized to serve the interests of a small part of Humanity.
A lot of esperantists understand that among people whose english is not their native tongue, only the wealthier can reach a level “not too bad” which can allow getting information or enjoy rights. The other can use english only to chat about simple things, buy goods or obey orders!
The propagandists are NOT esperantists, but those, who pushed globish as the main world language to make it a “fait accompli”.
As a lot of people, I had to study english during more than 8 years and nevertheless, I cannot speak it as well as I can speak (italian or) esperanto, which I learnt only during some months (6 month, and after that I read and met people).
I’ve got a lot of english speaking friends, british, american and so on… I am always happy to help a “poor” english speaking monolingual tourist.
I think that your insistence here plead for english, to use a lot of time for that, and fight against esperanto is highly suspect.
You could be a kind of lobbyist, don’t you think so?
Anyway I do not know why I answer, people like you make us waste our time. Better to go in the “real life” and speak with “real people”.
And I want to repeat that the “debate” here is biased, because ONLY english-speaking people can understand the questions, and give their opinion.
————–
Oh, I have to add something : in my life, I met sometimes people who speak english as a 2nd language, and cannot tolerate the idea of esperanto, because thanks to their knowledge of the dominant language, they get a king of “prestige”, and they are angry to imagine a world where they could loose this status.
You may withhold the drama Dominique, it does not sound well. I imagine the it probably sound better in French or Esperanto, or even in Italian.
And yes I do not know many Esperantists. As I told Remus, I was referring to a group of people commenting in this debate. I imagine that you belong in that group. Because most of what you say is not only not true in many cases it is just downright propaganda.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you in your dismissal of Globish as a “bad idea”, although I would not go as far as saying that it is “instrumentalized” to serve the interest of a small part of humanity. It was not, and it is not, its purpose to give an “unfair advantage” to those who learn it. You already ascribe that advantage to the English native speakers, who most definitely do not need to learn “Globish”.
You see, I am not the only one generalizing. “A lot of esperantists…” Although I can imagine that you know a few more than I do. But the rest of the statement is blatantly incorrect. There are a lot more people who speak English as a second language correctly than the totality of Esperanto speakers. Most of them are not wealthy, many were downright poor when they started to study English, and some of them still are. The majority of English speakers of the World, native or otherwise, are not wealthy.
Actually, there are more people for whom English is a second language, who have studied in a College or University where English is the language used, and for that reason alone can be considered to speak and understand English to a higher level than many native speakers who have not had a similar education, than the totality of Esperanto speakers.
I am happy to learn that you are one of the Europeans who is ‘always happy to help a “poor” English speaking monolingual tourist’. However, I would really like for you to also include those other “poor” tourists who are not monolingual but simply do not speak French, Esperanto or Italian but that are “polylingual” with English as a second language. We need all the help that we can get. Above all those of us who are actually good speakers of English but not wealthy (we are a lot). Wealthy English speakers generally get more help than what they want or need. Wealthy English speakers are known to be very good “tippers.”
Do not be offensive to “poor” English speakers, we use English for a lot more that taking (or giving) orders. But that can also be applied to native speakers of English and of other languages as well. I am sure you take (or give) a lot of orders in your native language.
I am sorry to hear that you studied English for 8 years and still do not speak it well. Blame the teachers! In modern day education the teachers are always to blame for the student lack of success. But three years is more than enough to learn sufficient English to handle most daily situations, read newspapers and the occasional magazine or novel. Five years should put you right about College level English. For some people a little more, but 8 years is too much. You should also remember that you did not learn French, I am assuming that is your native language, in 5 or 8 years. A native speaker takes a lot more time than that to learn the language.
Dominique, I am not a “lobbyist” (lobbyist: a person employed by a particular interest to lobby —that is what dictionaries are for, in all languages), I am not employed nor get paid for my opinions. I imagine that you are not either. And you are very passionate about Esperanto being adopted as the World Lingua Franca. Are you a “lobbyist” for Esperanto?
And Dominique, are you implying that my life is fake. I live a real normal life. I talk, work, travel, study with real people. I have relationships with real people and my family is also real. But I also encourage you to go out “in the real World” and you will find a lot more people who speak English, (some better than others) than Esperanto speakers.
The debate is not biased; the question was posted in English so people who understand English could comment. It was not intended for those who do not speak, read, write or understand English.
If you think the debate should be carry out in other languages, post the same questions in those other languages so people who speak, read, write and understand those languages could comment.
Americans and Brits often wring their hands innocently over the question “Why do they Hate us?” and though the reasons are rife and lay spread out like mussels on a beach, they choses to ignore the signs.
Force is force – intrusion is intrusion. Nobody can deny that. Once you intrude a dialect or language on a whole population that is not used to interacting in that way, and a language in which norms such as the Victorian or Wall Street norms dominate the language to the detriment of other life concerns, one must be prepared to hear such plaints.
English as used in GB in particular but also in the USA is a class instrument. Due to its truly enormous phoneme base, a true grasp of persuasive English can only be attained by natives after many, many years of study. I have a doctoral degree in teaching English as a foreign language (and also in teaching foreign languages, as well) but even with all of those years of study in English, I still consult the dictionary every week when I read the New York Times. Imagine somebody who has studied English as a second language with their limited number of study hours available. This hardly leaves them time to devote to other subjects.
Furthermore, note how many heads of international organizations are from native English language countries. Percentagewise it seems huge – hardly proportionate to the number of native English speakers in those organizations.
The Anglo-Saxon approach is quite naïve and it leads to aggression against them. Everybody, it states, can acquire English – whether it be Standard American or GP [Given Pronunciation]. But the truth of the matter is that not only does English function as a class identifier within native English speaking countries, it also acts as an outsider marker for those who struggle to acquire it as a second language.
If English were to be declared to be the official second language of every European Union citizen, then it would at least be a bit fairer if Great Britain were to fund English lessons across Europe and invite ALL citizens of the European to spend payment free language vacations in their own country in order to bring them up to snuff. I hardly think that the citizens of the UK would like this. In fact, the amount of xenophobia exhibited by the UK in its official policies of entry go much beyond most other countries in Europe.
In short, what people are then arguing for is British supremacy and domination. If that is what the citizens of Europe want, so be it.
Quite a speech! Quite misleading coming from someone who, apparently, has spent a great portion of his life studying and teaching languages.
A language is always “an outsider marker for those who struggle to acquire it as a second language” and even for those who had acquired enough proficiency to be called bilingual, it is UNAVOIDABLE, native speakers will always know you are not one of them. The same is true about dialects and local variations. It is so in each and every one of the languages you claim to be proficient in as well as in all those you claim to have a working knowledge on.
As a student of English, I would like to know which are the Wall Street norms for speaking English. I have never found them in any book I have read.
Regarding the years of study, the same happens in all languages, people start going to school at an early age and spend a lot of years studying to become a native speaker. And I do not know what they taught you in your school, but that is what dictionaries are for. That is why I am so happy about all the English online dictionaries, and the RAE’s too. They make my life so much easier! There is an online Esperanto dictionary too. But be careful because while trying to vilify English you are also doing it to Esperanto implying that a person can learn all the words in Esperanto, there are so few of them, and will never need a dictionary. I am sure that Esperanto has enough words to make the use of a dictionary a possible eventuality in the life of a student of the language, and even of a so called Esperanto native speaker. If you just want to talk to your buddies, then a dictionary is superfluous. But, on the other hand, if you are an educated person who reads and who is exposed to many different topics then you will a dictionary quite handy, in any language you happen to speak. It used to be called the “richness” of a language and people were proud of it. English, German, Spanish, Italian, French, Greek, Chinese, Japanese
Standard English. I refer you to the American Heritage Dictionary.
{What Is Standard English?
•A Highly Elastic and Variable Term
[W]hat counts as Standard English will depend on both the locality and the particular varieties that Standard English is being contrasted with. A form that is considered standard in one region may be nonstandard in another, and a form that is standard by contrast with one variety (for example the language of inner-city African Americans) may be considered nonstandard by contrast with the usage of middle-class professionals. No matter how it is interpreted, however, Standard English in this sense shouldn’t be regarded as being necessarily correct or unexceptionable, since it will include many kinds of language that could be faulted on various grounds, like the language of corporate memos and television advertisements or the conversations of middle-class high-school students. Thus while the term can serve a useful descriptive purpose providing the context makes its meaning clear, it shouldn’t be construed as conferring any absolute positive evaluation.
(The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th edition, 2000)}
I am sorry I know that you are a professional and as such have access to tools none of us has, but I could only find “Received Pronunciation (RP)” as the pronunciation on the south of England. It is also called several other names but not GP so it must be something else.
The question is about declaring English a the “Official Language of the EU” not the “official second language of every European Union citizen”. I imagine that if adopted every person will continue to speak whatever they prefer to speak. Like Esperantists say Esperanto should be. Or are you implying that the real agenda of the Esperantist Movement is to force every person in the EU to learn Esperanto.
Is the Esperanto country of origin going to “invite ALL citizens of the European to spend payment free language vacations in their own country in order to bring them up to snuff”? I am sorry, I forgot there is no such a country. And Xenophobes, well you find xenophobes everywhere not just in the UK or the USA. Talk about Xenophobia in the EU now.
And the British (and US) supremacy is already here and it was not gained through the language. The more people speak English the smaller their advantage will be. When everybody speaks English there will be no advantage.
A very deceiving speech indeed.
Dr. Kvasnak, that English teacher really messed you up with that soap. You should see a phycologist.
Regarding particples, I strongly disagree. I taught Irish to a class of over 40 young Australians for two years. Most of them did not know what a participle was, and they were most certainly not stupid. …. But there are none so blind as those who will not see!
Of course they did not know what a participle was. And of course they were not stupid, just uneducated from spending their whole lives in the bush. Had they been in a city or town and gone to school they would have known what a participle was. Normally, participles are taught in elementary school in all English speaking countries, as well as adjectives and adverbs and all other parts of speech. From experience I know the same applies to Spanish. I imagine it is the same in other languages.
And definitely, those who do not want to see, do not see.
The Australians did not spend their whole lives in the bush, and many of them had university degrees. Their English was perfect, far better than any learner of English I have ever met – they had just never formally studied grammar, nor did they need to.
You just like to disagree even if you do not have a leg to stand on.
So according to you they have university degrees but did not know what a participle was? Now you are offending a whole country. So according to you, in Australia you can get to the university without knowing what a participle is. Way to go Seán. That is like saying you can get to the university in France without knowing what La Bastille Saint-Antoine is.
And remember Seán there is always sarcasm. You have to account for it.
English is imperialistic. It should not be the official language of the EU. Esperanto would be better
Alejandro Carlos, that is merely your opinion. Based on what experience? Please give details of the amount of language teaching your have done in Australia. Otherwise, your opinion can be taken with a pinch of salt.
“The English Advantage” — http://www.esperanto-sat.info/article600.html
Kio estas angla lingvo? Certe ne estos neniam mia lingvo. Se angla devenos oficiala lingvo de Europa Unio ĝi mortigos aliaj lingvoj kaj kulturoj
In the future, everyone will speak 2 languages. English + mother tongue. If you want to travel the world, you must learn English.
False! It is possible to travel a lot using French, which is official in 29 countries; or Spanish, used in all of South and Central America and Mexico (many Brazilians can understand it), German in Central Europe, Russian in the former Soviet Union, or Mandarin Chinese in China.
That is a logistical nightmare. Did you actually read what you just wrote? If I need to travel to Poland I learn German, if it is Hungary I learn Russian, if it is Brazil then Spanish. And who wants to travel to the French former colonies.
And there are more English speakers in China that the totality of Esperanto speaker. in the whole World.
Or you could use English in all of those places and have a great time.
Face it Seán, English may be a horrible language, according to you and your friends here, but it is undeniably a handy little tool. And it is not that hard to learn at all. Except for Esperantists who need twenty times more time than anybody else. English just flummox them.
Alejandro Carlos : 1) L’important en Chine c’est le pourcentage. Très PEU de Chinois parlent un anglais compréhensible. La difficulté d’enseignement est telle qu’une école primaire de grande taille a décidé d’enseigner l’espéranto comme propédeutique.
2) Vous ne connaissez pas le nombre d’espérantophones du monde. Et, sans aucun enseignement scolaire ou presque, ce nombre ne cesse de croître (que cela vous plaise ou non).
3) Je suis très étonnée (et l’ai déjà dit) du temps que vous consacrez à ce débat. Je trouve cela HAUTEMENT suspect.
Enfin, quand le sage montre la Lune, l’imbécile regarde le doigt. :-)
@Mother Tongue: Pierre Dac un résistant qui participa à Radio-Londres et ensuiet fut connu comme humoriste, disait: “Les prévisions sont très difficiles à faire, spécialement quand elles concernent l’avenir”.
Enfin, dernier mais non le moindre:
Franchement les gens qui se prosternent devant la violence des “dominants” me dégoûtent profondément. Ce n’est pas l’Humanité que je souhaite, et je me battrai contre ces façons d’être et de faire tant que j’en serai capable.
NEE, NO, NEIN, NON.
Bovendien, wat maakt het uit welke taal men spreekt zolang Europese politici alleen maar bezig zijn met het verkondigen van hun eigen standpunten zonder naar elkaar of naar de burgers te luisteren?
I speak Polish fluently, as I lived in Warsaw for five and a half years. If anybody believes that English is understood everywhere, try speaking it to the Polish police. I had to rescue some Irish citizens who were foolish enough to try this.
Nee, belachelijk. Laten we allemaal, voor de gelijke kansen, Esperanto er bij leren. Alleen Engels doodt mijn moedertaal en mijn cultuur. No way!
Ik spreek 8 talen, English too, maar ik prefeer mijn eigen taal in de EU.
Neen.
Neen.
Al was het maar om de Engelse taal die kakofonie te besparen.
Denk maar aan wat er met het Latijn is gebeurd.
Nein!
Nee!
Nej!
Nee, nee, nee, nee, nee!
En als het moet dan nog liever de meest gesproken taal in de EU, het Duits.
German may be (if it really is) the most spoken language in the EU. (I though it was English). But to your chagrin, it is so for the same reason that English is the most spoken in the World, people find it useful “for them”. People get a return heir investment despite the effort, time and money they have to put into learning it. Difficult to learn as German is. It is not altruism, the motive is money.
Alejandro Carlos: 1) Le monde se meurt de ce que vous considérez comme acceptable: le désir égoïste de gagner plus d’argent. Nous sommes en pleine COP21 et les firmes multinationales sont prêtes à se battre pour freiner toute réforme raisonnable et salvatrice.
2) François Grin a montré que le rendement de l’apprentissage de l’anglais est en baisse. Il vaut mieux parler des langues plus rares (au moins en plus de l’anglais). Mais ce n’est même pas le sujet.
Le sujet c’est la démocratie en Europe, et il serait totalement contradictoire de valider la charte des langues régionales et EN MÊME TEMPS de ne conserver que l’anglais comme langue “officielle” dans l’UE.
De toutes façons, cette UE doit être revue de fond en comble, car, conçue dès l’origine comme un “rempart” contre “l’affreux” socialisme de l’URSS (bon, d’accord, le stalinisme était époucantable), elle n’est PAS démocratique.
3) Ce forum c’est n’importe quoi. Vous êtes apparemment Sud-Américain (ou centre-américain) et on se demande ce que vous venez faire sur un forum qui théoriquement devrait concerner avant tout les Européens.
De même, vous avez le droit de faire du fric avec l’enseignement de l’anglais, mais foutez-nous un peu la paix, ça nous fera des vacances. Et encore je suis gentille, car j’aurais bien envie de vous dire des choses moins aimables, si je me laissais aller à exprimer le fond de ma pensée.
NEE!
Ongewenste diglossie zal dit veroorzaken
Je hebt gelijk, Rogier. democratie moet het mogelijk maken de mensen te begrijpen en te participeren in het spreken. (traduction de Google… Maar robots kunnen niet alles doen, is de reden voor het Esperanto)
Sneaky Dominique, but no. The same will happen with Esperanto if implemented. The same will happen with any language which is adopted as a second oficial language. That is inevitable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diglossia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diglossic_regions
Since there is one native Spanish speaker absolutely intent on the use of [his?] English ‘for the world’ – I would like to point out that in all forms of English the word ‘people’ is used in the plural (i.e. “people ARE”) and not, as in Spanish, with the singular: quote: “…the rest of people is…” This is a rather basic grammatical rule.
Before proposing something as a solution to anything, one should indeed master that which one is proposing as a solution or at least make an attempt to. I know that I do not make these kinds of mistakes when using Esperanto and that I acquired this skill without the amount of time and energy I have had to use in gaining a less perfect mastery of other languages (e.g. Spanish), I fully support the idea of introducing Esperanto as a solution to the world’s language problem.
Dankon, Robb! ;-) Se vi scipovas la francan, vi komprenos facile (el miaj antaŭaj komentoj), ke mi tiu ulo ege incitas min. Mi iomete suspektas, ke li povas esti iu profesia “premisto”. Eble ne, eble jes, kiu scias?
I do not know where you got this since I generally use it correctly according with the idea I want to express. But I am an immigrant, a speaker of English as a second language, which even though I may not it do correctly 100 % of the time does not prevent me from defending the advantages of the language, regardless the politics of its speakers.
Now, on the other hand a person of your stature, I mean you have a PhD in English education should now better than to expose himself with such a statement. You are undermining your credibility as an English “connoisseur” and detractor.
May I explain? The word “people” can be used as both singular and plural. When it is the plural of person then it is plural, but contrariwise, if it is used to represent a tribe, one kind of people or the people of a country as a whole it is used in singular.
http://www.pearsonlongman.com/ae/azar/grammar_ex/message_board/archive/articles/00048.htm
Just to give you one link.
So please, if you are going to criticize and try to teach me English do it correctly.
You are confusing the other Esperantists who believe whatever you say
Kara Couturier – jes mi bone komprenas la fancan kaj ankaŭ mi kredas ke tiu sinjoro estas ‘premisto’ aŭ ‘trolo’. Krom tio li suferas la ŝokon de la politiko de Castro en Kubo kaj por tiuj homoj ekzistas nur du koloroj: nigra kaj blanka. Por ili ĉio kion ili iam aŭdis en Kubo estas nigra – ĉio el Usono ests blanka – ni havas du tiajn politikistojn ĉe ni, ambaŭ el Kubo: Ted Cruz kaj Marco Rubio – ili klopodas plaĉi al la blankaj anglosaksaj protestantoj [en la usona: WASPs] kaj ili kredas ke io – eĉ eteta io kontraŭ tiu grupo estas ‘socialisma’ aŭ ‘komunisma’ – vi jam legis ke lia ununura mezurilo estas mono – ne homrajtoj aŭ homeco. Por ili la homa flanko ne gravas – profito estas la centra intereso – la kvazaŭdio de ilia ideologio. Ili argumentas ke por la sukceso de grandaj, internaciaj kompanioj kiuj jam uzas la anglan por profito, kaŭzus problemojn uzi alian lingvon [kaj eble alian filozofion ol la anglosaksan] en siaj klopodoj gajni pli da mono, vringi pli da profitoj el la mondo por siaj kompanioj. Por ili homo estas nur interesa aĵo en la kompreno de homa ekpluateblaĵo [angle: human resources] – egale al naturaj ekpluteblaĵoj aŭ financaj ekpluteblaĵoj, energiaj ekpluateblaĵoj. La mono fariĝas objekto aŭ aĵo, ilo por obteni profiton. Ĉio tio kiel filozofo ŝajnas tiom maldanĝera en la angla lingvo – human resources, financial resources, energy resources…..How do you use your human resources as a leverage for increasing profit? – Neniu demands pri la feliĉo aŭ pri la sanstato de tiuj homoj – ili estas ja nur ‘resources’ [ekspluateblaĵoj]. Ili kriĉas: Vivu Wall Street! Vivi The City! Vivu Libor! Vivu dolaro kiel ‘reserve currency’ – ĉiam por la plibono de riĉa kapitalista klaso en la du anglosaksaj landoj kaj tiu hispan-denaskulo imagas ke li apartenas al tiu grupo. Bedaŭrind por li mi plenkreskis apud tiu grupo kaj mi scias ke ili ne vere akceptas eksterulojn ververe. Sed estas lia – kaj nia ĉies problemo nuntempe.
Feliĉe li ne estas eŭropano. Sed li reprezentas certan ero de la dekstraj ekstremuloj ĉe ni en Usono.
Shajnas al mi ke tiu sinjoro havas nenion alian por fari krom skribi chi-tie.
I don’t really understand why there is the need to flat the entire European culture, which is with no doubt a plurality of differences, to a supposed culture that would somehow unite European countries into a federal state. I would just remind how another federal state has been established: the USA. First you have a huge territory, with its natives; then you have some coloners who decide to take over that territory. There you have it, one language and one culture, that neede to ger rid of the natives, which is exactly what happened. Now, this european design is impossible, because when you unite different countries with different culture and economies,with a common coin, there is always what we see happening now: the “weakest” countries suffer and the “strongest” countries prevale. In the United States there is a part of the federal budget that is assigned to repair economical shock in the poorest states. This is not happening in the EU, Germany isn’t applying any expansive legislation, and southern countries are paying, with their debts, deutsch industrial production. The project of an European state is anti-historical and it is just conformed to the USA will. Remember when Schoible proposed to Tsipras a wayout? Obama came in and interrupted any discussionn about a possible break up of the EU.
No ! Is even against the treaties … Is illegal …
Greek or studies in Greece for high level!!!
Like russian was in USSR?
uhmm…have we solved all the urgent and crucial issues of the EU and now we are debating about language?????????
Actually language is the most urgent problem, though many cannot see this. If communication is in poorly-learned English, then there will be many mis-understandings, and these mid-understandings will make all the other problems worse. Read the book “Communication Clashes and Aircraft Crashes”, which documents the number of air crashes caused by the ambiguities of English. One example: “Descend two four zero zero” was understood as “Descend to four zero zero”, and hundreds died in the ensuing crash. Tragic. But some will still persist in blindly proposing English as the solution!
It is already.
It is going that way anyway. I would not make it an official policy. First of all there is probably no need and definitely not while the British are so disengaged from the EU.
I think it could be useful to have one language official around all the EU and then the local language also official in each country. Then if you travel across Europe you know that you are always able to handle any situation. There are and used to be many bilingual countries and let’s say that despite negative image of the USSR the former USSR countries still benefit from understanding each other.
No. Always the same topic…are you trying or willing to make it the first?
Je l’ai déjà dit et le répète: ce débat est une parodie de débat puisque SEULS ceux qui comprennent le parlent anglais peuvent piger la question et y répondre. Cela s’appelle un “biais de recrutement”. Autrement dit, tous ceux qui parlent seulement (ou mieux) français, espagnol, italien, portugais, allemand, polonais, tchèque etc… (et qui probablement diraient NON) sont exclus.
Vive le multilinguisme et vive l’espéranto, meilleur soutien du plurilinguisme. Vive le groupe “polyglots” également.
My language is Portuguese and as much as it hurts some europeans it is a world major language, yet we are obliged to put up with French and German as “Working Languages” when both of them have way less native speakers. Now you want to force us to listen our European Parliamentarians speaking just in english. We had a bigger purshasing power before de EU, a bigger authonomy and and plenty of people to comunicate with with our ownlanguage, so why exactly would we keep voting for this unconsiderate federal project that it is the EU. Hail PCP and BE!
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LATIN !!!
Not the only official language, but we should have an official common language along the local ones, and English seems to be the best choice.
English seems to be the best choice only if you do not consider Esperanto. It is 10 times easier than English, and even more expressive.
No, way, Bring us Latin, or Franch as official languague in EU.
Zamenhof também já considerou o Latim, mas o descartou porque é difícil demais hoje em dia para todo mundo aprender. Na verdade podemos aplicar o mesmo argumento ao inglês. Eu acho que o Esperanto é a única solução justa.
Who drafts these questions?!? Let’s try another one like that… “Should pepper steaks be the only official food of the EU?”
Let the Willie Lynch theory reverse a million times with…
Of course not. But do you mean English or American? As the English are now willing to leave the EU and the US is not member. We should prepare to banish English as an oficial language ou the EU as a consequece of the BREXIT.
Neen. De EU lijdt hoe dan ook al aan een vreselijke enkelvoudigheid.
No..the britisch people have as well the right to be educated
it would really make life of everybody (apart from French people) easier if English would be the main language of the EU documents and institutionsand communication, it is not about forcing it is about logical choice/ rational choice – : compare – making life of 30 nationalities easier or making life of one nationality easier ( so that they can stay in their comfort zone and consider the other cultures as “less important” ? What is the better solution ?
the other point is that the EU needs to help EU citizens to ” create their ” second or first identity” the identity of the EU citizen” because it is not working so far – me after 7 years of working for the EU institutions with people from all EU countries ,speaking many languages I did “develop the EU Identity” – I feel firstly the CITIZEN OF THE EU, I feel firstly European and then secondly I feel Polish, many people do have their only national identity and they do not identify themselves with the EU even though they are ” living so to say in two houses : in their country but at the same time in the European Union
English weakens a European identity because it is the language of the USA. We need a neutral language, like Esperanto, to strengthen a European identity.
and if the EU has one main language commonly accepted it will be more easier and faster to help people across Europe develop their EU citizenship identity
No! This is Europe, not an English Colony!!!
certainly not. Do not forget that the British want to leave from EU.
if you imagine that a country is a ” house” for the folk than the country is the “first house” and the EU is the ” second house” for everybody in the EU or the contrary, the EU is the first house and the country is the second house – depending on the individual , and it means that each EU citizen is living in ” two houses ” at the same time
but many people do not consider it and do not take protfit of it
and the EU does not work hardly enough to help its citizens to realise this ” double home”
No
Non.
Make Esperanto the official language.
No, but it can become an official universal working language, which it de facto already is. It’s long become a Lingua Franca and it’s time the reality is officially reconised. Those who reject it, do not see a comical irony in that they write in English as they are reacting to the article written in English.
Asling the question in English creates a bias towards English, obviously! Yes many can see through this propaganda, and vote NO.
Dat is echt een nonsense-argument. Je zou hetzelfde kunnen zeggen als het artikel in het Nederlands was. Het enige wat dit écht betekent is dat veel mensen NIET kunnen meepraten over dit thema dat ons allemaal raakt. Ja, ik spreek Engels, maar voor Esperanto heb ik amper een maand nodig gehad om het op een goed niveau te leren, vergeleken met een paar JAAR voor het Engels…
Yes …… because it is already !
Je bien voudrais! Mais en fait, en régardant les faits c’est bien pas comme ça. Bien sûr il y a plein des gens qui parlent l’anglais, mais aussi beaucoup en plus que ne le parlent pas et qui n’ont pas aucune motivation pour le bien apprendre. Aussi je pense que la culture de l’anglais est bien different de la culture generale europeene. Il faut avoir une langue qui est de chaque un, pas une langue qui cause la segregation, comme le fait l’anglais.
Não!
No way ! this is linguistic Imperialism !
NO WAY!!!!
No
Why not ☺☺☺
Because it’s unfair!
It’s already the second language of most Europeans. They speak it better a lot of British people!
Chinese is way better than English
NO.
No, of course not! I need a job teaching English!
NÃO.
Yes.
Definitely not.
No.
No every gov got a history then no one wants to brake the tradition
In what language did you asked that question?
Is that not obvious?
Definitely yes.
Well, it will be something funny to adopt english now that England is challenging the EU.
English is fast everybody’s second language in the world, not only the EU. Movies, music and trade are the driving force. Those who want to stop this process will have to come with stronger offerings. Native speakers will have an advantage. So let’s simply tax them to balance the score 😈
Hell, no!
ΟΧΙ!
English is the Latin of modern age
ΟΧΙ
Yes , all EU students should learn English .
yes, if you mean must be the second oficial language… in EU. Usualy the first is native language of every member contry.
No, definitely not
Neen!
Subsidiarity. …..the EU is enough active in the failed education of 700+ MEPS per year.
What about Esperanto? Or Latin?
I’m all for it! :)
I’m all for Esperanto too! Fairness and linguistic justice!
Definitely – yes!
no – the variety of languages makes the beautiful diversity
I think yes. All languages are beautiful but it is very convenient, easy, fast, smart etc. to travel anywhere in the EU (and/or the whole world) and be able to communicate effectively!!! I am Greek, I live in Germany and it helped me a lot when people in the public service knew english. Not all did, so I learned german quickly, but boy! Was that hard!!! 😝
every european shoulld speak english and their own language
No of course no,in our days there is no need for one or two official languages !
Let’s use technology on communications and explore ,listen ,use every single language !! This is our legacy !
Hell no!!
Of course ! Nothitng speaks against ! So it would be easier for all to end discrepancies oncommunications inside the E.U. ..In fact I thought that was already decided. But that’s moreover a question lazy or not to learn .
Why should it be the “official language” of the EU? You couldn’t have air travel without a ‘common language’ and English was the language chosen for that. So for Europeans to communicate with each other they also need a common language. There is no need for an “official language”. The British have had to learn to speak American in order to trade with America, (a ‘rubber’ means an eraser in English and a condom in American, for example), but we still keep our own version of English and our own spellings. One needs a common language during wartime also. There are those who advocate a European army, how do they communicate without a common language? I don’t think it will make much difference if the UK exits the EU or not. What alternative language would be chosen? Probably that of the largest contributor, so maybe we had better all start learning German.
You wrote “You couldn’t have air travel without a ‘common language’ and English was the language chosen for that.”
Who did choose English? It has been one-side imposed.
But UK is going to leave EU. So there no point to adopt English as official language .
There are still two other EU nations with English as an official language.
.
One union, one flag, one anthem, one currency, one law making institution, one president & one border requires one language.
English ‘is’ the de-facto designated language of your EU, which is why 99% of Schools in the EU teach it & like all other languages before the indigenous tongues of the EU will die.
Esperanto would be far better, because it is fair, and gives no unjust advantage to native speakers.
One union (created for that purpose from scratch), one flag (too), one anthem (not a national anthem form the UK, but one for everyone that could represent everyone), one new currency (yes, Uk still with the pound… it’s so european), one president (not the president of any member state), one new expanding border… and one language (not the one of a privileged people). Esperanto should be that language and will be that language. English will finally fade away, as the inmortal imposed Latin faded away. Please, have some sense of justice and put yourself in other’s shoes.
The British Council through huge amounts of money has been trying to push/force English onto other Europeans (and still 62% can’t speak English, and they are Europeans! with closer languages to English than Chinese people!).
I’d like you to be forced to learn a language like mine, Spanish, and measure you international communicating skills with me in front of other people negotiating in Spanish. The time you have spent learning Spanish i would have spent learning how to negotiate even better. My Spanish would always sound better than yours. You would always be in a lower level
NÃO !!! No !!!
No. Absolutely not! Each country has its language, customs, and ethnic pride… turning Europe into a meat grinder is simply wrong for the long term… unless the goal is to have a faceless society.
No.
why should english be an official language?! they are not founders of EU, they want to leave EU, dont have euro, dont want to abide euro laws.. why not german?! or french?! or any other language.. if we are basing our community on equality then big fucking NO to one official language, specially not english
Mee eens! Alleen Engels??
Over mijn LIJK. Het is één grote vuige, smerige wereldwijde samenzwering van luie, super arrogante, machtsbeluste, fantasieloze establishment-figuren.
Niks tegen Engelstalige zelf, wel tegen Europese volksverraders en ‘wanabees’
Jakob Grit, Nederland.
NEEN aan het Engels als algemene taal voor Europa.
NON à l’anglasi comme langue commune de l’Union européenne
NE al la angla kiel komuna lingvo de Eŭropa Unio.
Lingva imperiismo / Linguistic Imperialism / Impérialisme linguistique
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/32119/album/274250
Wij hebben de keuze niet gehad. Het is ons volledig opgelegd geweest. Het is echt overdreven. laat iedereen iets.
Elisabeth vous avez raison. Vous êtes pourtant de langue néderlandaise. Merci merci. U hebt gelijk. Heel hartelijk bedankt. Leef alle talen.
Nee, Engels mag zeker niet de enige taal zijn als algemene taal voor Europa ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
The essential choice is between English, a very unsatisfactory solution which many people accept because they know no better, and Esperanto, a far better solution which most people do not consider. The reason is that they either know nothing about it, or they believe the nonsense they have heard from people who know even less, about Esperanto or about languages in general.
We just celebrated Zamenhof’s birthday at my house – packed with people who knew nothing about Esperanto and then 5 of us who speak it. I made an enormous, yummy Zamenhof b-day cake [zamkuko!]. We did all the other Dec holidays too. The partiers – from many countries – found the stories about Esperanto fascinating and since many of them are struggling with American English they agreed mostly that Esperanto would be a much better world solution than American English [the British variety is even more difficult]. I wanted to show people that Esperanto is just fun and that we have a culture that is very open and not mysterious. We have our color: green. Our cuisine is the food of all those who attend – i.e. international. We played music in Esperanto for the holidays and people were delighted by the sound of our language. I think we made more progress than a hundred stands or scores of flyers – just by celebrating.
And here I would like to point out that we have never killed anyone to make people learn our language. We have no army and we have not conquered any countries. We have not foisted businesses on them, hedge funds or buyouts. Ours is a peaceful community that only want to give – not take. Feliĉajn festotagojn!
Gratulojn pro viaj ideo kaj agado, kara.
Mi reciproke deziras al vi kaj la viaj feliĉigajn festotagojn!
Robert Phillipson interviewed about English Linguistic Imperialism — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGPjyDRTuU8
“Quelle est la langue officielle de Sanofi-Aventis ?“
Réponse de Jean-François Dehecq, PDG de Sanofi-Aventis : “Ce n’est sûrement pas l’anglais. Une multinationale est une entreprise dans laquelle chacun peut parler sa langue. Dans une réunion, c’est du cerveau des gens dont on a besoin. Si vous les obligez à parler anglais, les Anglo-Saxons arrivent avec 100 % de leurs capacités, les gens qui parlent très bien, avec 50 %, et la majorité, avec 10 %. À vouloir tous être anglo-saxons, il ne faut pas s’étonner que ce soient les anglo-saxons qui gagnent.“
(L’Expansion, novembre 2004, n° 691).
“Kiu estas la oficiala lingvo de Sanofi-Aventis? » (farmacia transnacia firmao)
Respondo de Jean-François Dehecq, Prezidanto-Ĝenerala Direktoro de Sanofi-Aventis: “Certe ne la angla. Transnacia firmao estas entrepreno en kiu ĉiu povas paroli sian lingvon. Bezonata, en kunveno, estas la cerbo de la homojs. Se vi devigas ilin paroli angle, la anglosaksoj alvenas kun 100% el siaj kapabloj, homoj kiuj parolas tre bone, kun 50% kaj la plimulto kun 10%. Provante esti ĉiuj anglalingvaj, ne estas mirige, ke estas la anglosaksoj kiuj gajnas. ”
(L’Expansion / La ekspansio /, novembro 2004, n-ro 691).
I do speak English, along with more than 8 other languages. Making a fair judgement between those languages it’s hard to justify any kind of deserved superiority in English.
We need english just as a help lenaguage for people who travel from different countries…everything in EU should be written in native language with translation to english…signs, manuals, instructions etc etc…Why are we even having this discussion this should of been from the start in EU
Internacia funkciulo de UN, Georges Kersaudy parolis, skribis kaj tradukis 50-on da lingvoj eŭropaj kaj aziaj, inkluzive Esperanton, kiun li lernis junaĝe. Li preferis Esperanton en la rolo de internacia lingvo, inkluzive eŭropa. Tion li klarigis okaze de prelegoj kaj en sia libro “Langues sans frontières” (Lingvoj sen limoj) en kiu li detale prezentis 39 lingvojn de Eŭropo, inkluzive Esperanton
:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Kersaudy
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Kersaudy
https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Kersaudy
Prelego en la franca / conférence en français :
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/32119/38676172
Fonctionnaire international de l’ONU, Georges Kersaudy parlait, écrivait et traduisait dans une cinquantaine de langues de l’Europe et de l’Asie, y compris l’espéranto, qu’il avait appris à un âge précoce. Il préférait l’espéranto dans le rôle de langue internationale, y compris européenne. Il a expliqué cela lors de conférences et dans son livre “Langues sans frontières” dans lequel il a présenté en détail 39 langues de l’Europe, dont l’espéranto.
This will be near impossible to accomplished and the only way to accomplished this, will be after World War Three, which will reduce the earth population drastically. Other wise this is near impossible at present , but since WW3 is getting very close and becoming a necessity, just to save the planet, this matter may have a chance, but even after the world reach a population level which could be safe for future generations, it wont be easy any way. I am talking at the world level, not only Europe, which somebody suggested , because it will be near impossible to change both Latin languages presently in use in America. Remember this, this could be a good idea, but since we humans take all the advantages that we could take from others, once you get the hand, then you want now the whole arm, which will translate to the English getting happy by obtaining this, but ONCE THEY OBTAINED THIS, THEN THEY WANT ALL OTHER LANGUAGES TO BE ERASE, so, I will see this fact, almost impossible to be implemented, even after WW3 ends. Any way…the European Union, as It is right now, WILL DISAPPEAR, ONCE WW3 ENDS BY NOT LATER THAN 2064….and Europeans nations will go back to what they were before the forming of the present European Union….Trust me guys on this, I have a very special talent at seeing future matters…Good luck to all good humans in the near future…we are going to need it very much…RJG….
It is a nighmare for me to travel for work in EU I only speak English and my f***ing Hungarian language …so imagine when I am in Germany..or Italy, or f***ing France…no English signs no instructions in English anywhere…it’s a f***ing nightmare…and I am sure my stupid government does not put any English in Hungary as well…. why the f**k do we have EU then? These old stupid people should f***ing understand that this is how we evolve and we work to pay for their pensions…so give me f***ing brake with your mother language…have everything in English also! It wont f***ing kill you!
instead of f***ing so much, think of the bad consequences of using ethnic languages as bridge languages among peoples of the world. Right now, only because you were born in Hungary, you are a simple 2nd citizen and you seem proud of having spent hundreds of hours learning English, which you don’t master at all, with poor results. You seem stupid compare to natives when you would debate about science. You are a slave who wants his master (the English natives who didn’t spent time to learn languages) to remain your master. Please, if you can understand all this, watch this video, it might open your eyes. https://www.youtu.be/cLx0hbGiZwc?list=PL6oIFrNfhY5LvdP9barCFBA1iSIWbfKmf
Leo is right. Here you’ll find the right link to the conclusion of the university lectures (you can start from minute 10:20) https://youtu.be/cLx0hbGiZwc
Alex if you are so much better and superior you can always make a point without resorting to offense, calling her stupid and a slave is not going to make her reconsider her position, but it weakens yours. Besides, although badly made, she has a point. It is true that if everybody spoke Esperanto, as you and a few others want, hat will be all you needed to be happy but unfortunately there are very few Esperanto speakers, but many English speakers throughout the World, and it seems that English is a better alternative for those moving around for various reasons. Even if they do not speak it very well, limited communication is always better than no communication. In most cases people learn a language, including their native language, inasmuch it satisfy their personal needs.
so even native speakers have a different command of their mother tongue.
Your other statement is completely inaccurate not to say misleading. Native speakers study their native language as a matter of course for a much longer period of time than what any person learning it as a second language dedicate to its study. When you study a second language you want to be able to use the language properly and correctly in as little time as possible. In the case of English you can be using it fluently and correctly in as little as one year, even less for some people with exceedingly good memories, unfortunately for others it is a much longer time, depending in how intensively they do it.
For a native the level of proficiency that the foreigner wants to attain takes years. That is unless you are claiming native speakers are born knowing the language.
Let’s see: You start learning your native language since you are born, even prior to that if you agree with the latest research into the matter that claims we start learning the language while still in the womb. In average you start school at about 5 or 6 years of age, you still do not know how to speak the language. You spend six year o seven years to finish elementary school and egress with a much better dominion of the language but still limited. That is six years (seven if you count kindergarten). Then you go on to secondary school which in most places is about another six years. At this point in your life you think you know the language perfectly which is incorrect, but you have a pretty good command of the language including nuances that are lost in foreigner speakers. So at this point you have been learning the language for about eighteen years in a very intense, 100% immersion course practicing 100% of the time you are awake (and even while you sleep if you dream) and still you do not have a 100% command of the language. If you continue to University then you will continue to study the language for as long as you are in school, although in a more specialize way learning all the words needed in you field of study.
So my question is, how can you say that native speakers do not study their language?
Her language was rude and inappropriate, but you were rude and offensive knowingly and on purpose. I think that takes any value away from your discourse.
Alejandro, try to understand this correctly: “You seem stupid compared to natives when you would debate about science.” (Don’t you think natives SEEM smarter when they talk in their native language compared with a Chinese guy learning English for, lets say, 10 years but as smart as the other?).
“You are a slave who wants his master (the English natives who didn’t spent time to learn languages) to remain your master.” (To me this isn’t an insult, it’s a fact. I am a slave too. You can call me that way. You can’t see that using the ethnic language from 5% of the world polpulation as a bridge language makes them have aa great birthright privilege over 95%. It’s not my fault if you are blind with that fact)
I’ve read your obvious explanation about something obvious… Of course natives spend a lot of time learning THEIR native language. Why did you need so many sentences to exlain something anyone knows? What did i mean by
“didn’t spent time to learn languages”? >>> foreign languages / a second one. (Of course!)
This is linguistic slavery abolishment, shortly explained here: http://Www.lingvo.org/prago/en.php
If you like colonisation through language i can’t do anything else. If you are happy saying the current situation is good, won’t change, etc it’s not my problem. You don’t show anything i already know and have thinked about.
Why all the vulgarity, Gina? English is not the only international language. French is official in 29 countries, and Spanish is a world language with over 400 million native speakers. The number of Spanish speakers in the United States is greater than in Spain!! Why do you close you mind to the possibilities of Esperanto! Your attitude does not seem logical to me.
Sorry Alex, but I cannot agree with you. If a person who speaks only one language considers a person who speaks two or more languages, even if that person does not speak those language excellently, stupid, it is more a reflexión of his own limitations than of the stupidity of the imperfectly bi or poly lingual person and he is only showing that he feels threaten by the “stupid one”, he feels the “stupid one” might be chosen instead of him in certain situations just because he knows an additional language, despite his lack of fluency.
Now regarding the “slave” comment. Please do not go out in a tangent here. What you wanted to imply was that she was an slave of the Americans just because she favors the use of English. If you are going to be an activist and an agitator, be an honest one. Say what you mean and mean what you say. I understood you perfectly well. I grew up in Cuba listening to apparatchiks talking just like you. Then I emigrated to the US. I was never treated as a slave nor did I fell like one, ever. I never felt stupid, not even once, while I was learning English, on the contrary in most cases I felt superior because I was doing the same as native Americans, just after a couple of years of learning English. In many cases even better because of my University education in Cuba, despite not talking as fluently as them. I went to college got my degree, worked, have several business, traveled the World. I did all of that with an imperfect English. I spoke imperfect American English in England, and nobody laughed at me nor despised me nor refused to help me. I spoke imperfect English in France and drove from Paris to Saint Michelle by myself, people helping along the way in spite of my imperfect English, and theirs. I spent ten days traveling through Italy without a word of Italian, my imperfect English did a wonderful job. I did not felt stupid even once, and I do no think that the people who were helping me felt stupid either, nor they felt as slave of the Americans for using English.
If you feel like a slave it is not the Americans fault. It might be your inferiority complex making you feel you do not measure up the the Americans. My advise, do not feel inferior, you are better off than most Americans, despite their English fluency, and excuse me for saying this, their not so perfect “native” pronunciation, and their not so perfect mastery of their mother tongue.
Please, do not tell me that I was explaining the obvious when I detailed all the years a “native” spend in becoming a “native” in response to your statement that they did not study the language, that is what you said. If they did not spend any time leaning a second language it is their loss, but that is not what you implied. You see that we all make mistakes.
I was just setting the record straight. I am not blind to anything and neither are you. You just choose to be misleading and not completely honest in your statements.
Gina it is true you do not need the profanity, you will never convince them because they already know it and that is what hurts them. English is far better than Esperanto will ever be. Profanity aside, you can beat them with a stick in their head but they will not accept what you are saying, for them it is a political thing. They hate Americans as much as jihadists.
And Gina do not be misled by Sean, French is not only extremely difficult it is a simply horrid language. Spanish is a beautiful language but very difficult. And please do not under any circumstances close your mind to the opportunities that Esperanto will offer you, they are exactly NONE.
Alejandro, it’s a pity you can’t even read English but you take so much time and space to reply with your nonsense or your obvious facts. Read carefully: think of the bad consequences of using ETHNIC languages as bridge languages among peoples of the world.
Did i say English here? no, Latin, Spanish, I’ll complain against all ethnic languages people propose. Did i reply to people who want Latin instead? No, I can’t reply any single comment here! I’m replying more when they want English there, which is the most dangerous language for Europe and our equal (more or less) rights nowadays.
Did I ever said natives don’t do mistakes? Did i say i don’t? Did i say i don’t do mistakes in Esperanto? Think again… or read again. But… is it a fact the more you master a language the less mistakes you make? is it a fact the easier and more regular a language is the less mistakes you make?
Again, we have different point of views… you would have never fighted some centuries ago against slavery if you thought you would never see the results… quite an egoistic point… or low ambitions… or happy with the status quo (and therefore you don’t see any injustice, and English is the greatest language ever, and Esperanists hate americs, of course, and Esperanto offers no opportunities… what an argument! how many facts! what an analysis… to me, after so many info about Esperanto you have got here you proved you are like 2 of those three monkeys, you can’t hear nor see. It’s a pity you are so brave as to keep on talking. To me, YOU ARE NO LONGER WORTH REPLYING, like a baby if you don’t have stronger arguments. I told you this some months ago… i forgot it)
Some history from wikipedia (I could show you History about things people who started fighting for didn’t enjoyed but finally the results came for other generations. Just think of feminism or black rights activists):
“Slavery had been practiced in British North America from early colonial days, and was recognized in all the Thirteen Colonies at the time of the Declaration of Independence in 1776. […] The war ended on June 22, 1865 and following that surrender, the Emancipation Proclamation was enforced throughout remaining regions of the South that had not yet freed the slaves”
Of course now you see slavery as something horrible, etc, but it’s very problable that with that kind of ambition you show, if you were American in 1860 in the Confederacy you would have said this to Gina instead:
“They hate the Confederacy as much as jihadists (or X then).
[…] And please do not under any circumstances close your mind to the opportunities that slavery abolishment will offer you, they are exactly NONE.” (because slaves are cheaper if you don’t pay).
Don’t worry, I don’t feel stupid when i talk in a foreign language, but i can look stupid to people who can’t understand their language isn’t easy and have never tried to learn a foreign one and even to people who have learned it and just want to be mean.
Well, as i said, and happened months ago, in my opinion you still say only nonsense or obvious things. Nothing new for this debate. I’ll keep on telling monolingual people to learn Esperanto first for practical reasons such as this important one (TedTalk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gSAkUOElsg ) (even if you kill 100% Esperanto speakers new people would still start learning it for this reason, for example). To the same people I would tell them to learn English later (oh! me! wtf!? I hate Americans, you said) for practical reasons too if they have even more time than for Esperanto (because it’s a fact you can currently get a better job if you know English… read: you can CURRENTLY get a better job. In 20 years maybe not.) and that the more languages they learn, the better jobs they’ll probably get (And it’s a fact too).
Ok, bye. I have to keep on translating this app from Chinese into Spanish for my Graduate final project http://www.chinese-skill.com Yes, a lot more useful than “debating” with someone blind and deaf in this field.
I may be like two of the monkeys, the one who cannot see and the one who cannot hear, but I can think on my own, unlike you. I do not need slogans to state my ideas nor the arguments that were used by other people 100 years ago.
And comparing using English as a second language to slavery shows that you do not really think. Why? Because one language will substitute another? That is exactly what you are telling them you want to do. You tell them they will reap the benefit of the adoption 100-150 from now, I tell them they will get the benefit now. I tell them they will be able to improve their lives now. You tell them they will free in the far future and that everybody will be the same, and that they have to sacrifice themselves for the sake of future generations and a better World. Well, they may not get as much as they came to expect when they learn English, but for sure they will get everything you are promising them. How can you guarantee the outcome? I do not know, but you seem very sure of yourself. You have to be because you are not going to be around 150 years from now.
Now regarding History, since you like to talk about History. There were many people who made similar promises to millions of people, years ago. They told them “you will be free of American and British and all other imperialisms, and everybody will be the same, there will not be rich people and poor people anymore. Because we are idealists and our ideals are better and altruist and we only want what is best to all the people.”
And lo and behold, they did as they promised. The people were free of the American, and the British and all the other imperialism. They were under the rule of Communism. There was not rich people and poor people any more, only poor people. And everybody was the same, miserable.
Now we have a similar group except they are promising Paradise instead.
And you are right, I am not very original because all of this was told to the people many years ago, but they did not listen then. I hope they do now.
And this is not a debate about Esperanto, but about English. About how good or bad it will be if adopted as the sole official language of the EU. I am not saying participants cannot say they believe English is the wrong language and that they believe Esperanto could be a better choice. Some other people have said they believe German, French, Spanish, Chinese, etc. would be better choices. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong about favoring English.
What is wrong is to take this debate and transform into an advocacy platform for Esperanto and to attack those who state English as their predilection.
250.000 Esperanto learners more in 7 months! https://www.duolingo.com/course/eo/en/Learn-Esperanto-Online try it and compare the potential. Just say “I have a dream” when you think greater justice is impossible to achieve. http://www.lingvo.org/prago/en.php
How many English new students in the same period of time? Countless!
Alex, so you do not miss it.
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/english-official-language-eu/#comment-282534
Tion vi bonege vortumis!
Bedaŭrinde la reteja adreso ne funkciis.
Mi reprovis foriginte la punkton el “youtu.be”, sed ankoraŭ ne sukcesis vidi la filmeton.
Finfine mi trovis la filmeton ĉe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLx0hbGiZwc&list=PL6oIFrNfhY5LvdP9barCFBA1iSIWbfKmf
En 2008, un article du quotidien “Süddeutsche Zeitung“ est paru sous le titre “Schlechtes Deutsch besser als gutes Englisch“ (Un mauvais allemand plutôt qu’un bon anglais) dans une rubrique sur les langues dans l’entreprise. Il soulignait le fait que l’utilisation de l’anglais dans une firme allemande peut être handicapant :
– inhibition de collaborateurs qui ne s’expriment plus lors de réunions;
– imprécision dans la traduction de détails spécialisés dont la compréhension est cruciale;
– ralentissement et même arrêt du processus de travail lorsque seuls les collaborateurs qui parviennent à s’exprimer en anglais ne sont pas forcément des spécialistes en la matière;
– dossiers non traités, missions non exécutées faute de compréhension suffisante des contenus;
– inhibition de l’imagination et de l’inventivité des ingénieurs, alors que ces facultés font la force de l’entreprise.
Une bonne résolution pour 2016 :
s’informer et informer sur les coûts réels et les désavantages de l’imposition de l’anglais;
exiger un débat sur l’imposition systématique de l’anglais et signaler les entraves;
apprendre la Langue Internationale Espéranto, la seule à ne pas être liée avec une (des) nations(s), avec le milieu de la finance, avec une idéologie religieuse, économique ou politique;
signer la pétition multilingue “L’Espéranto, langue officielle de l’Union européenne, maintenant !“ / “Esperanto, an official language of the European Union, now!“ / “Esperanto, oficiala lingvo de Eŭropa Unio, nun !“
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
En 2008, en rubriko de la gazeto “Suddeutsche Zeitung“ pri lingvoj en entreprenoj aperis artikolo pri la aŭtomobila firmao Porsche sub la titolo “Schlechtes Deutsch besser als gutes Englisch” : Pli bone estas malbona germana ol bona angla. Ĝi substrekis la fakton, ke uzo de la angla en firmao de Germanio povas esti malhelpa :
inhibo de kunlaborantoj, kiuj ne plu esprimas sin en kunvenoj;
malprecizeco en traduko de fakaj detaloj, kies kompreno estas esenca;
malrapidigo kaj eĉ haltigo de laborprocezo, kiam kapablas esprimi sin nur kunlaborantoj, kiuj flue parolas angle dum ili ne nepre estas fakuloj en la kampo;
prokrasto aŭ eĉ halto en pritrakto de dosieroj, neplenumo de misioj pro nesufiĉa kompreno de la enhavo;
inhibo de la imago kaj inventemo de la inĝenieroj dum tiuj fakultoj faras la forton de la entrepreno.
Bona rezolucio por 2016 :
informiĝi kaj informi pri la realaj kostoj kaj malavantaĝoj de trudo de la angla;
postuli debaton pri la sistema trudo de la angla kaj atentigi pri malhelpoj;
lerni la Internacian Lingvon Esperanto, la sola ligita nek kun nacio(j), nek kun la financa mondo, nek kun religia aŭ ekonomia ideologio;
subskribi la multlingvan peticion “L’Espéranto, langue officielle de l’Union européenne, maintenant !“ / “Esperanto, an official language of the European Union, now!“ / “Esperanto, oficiala lingvo de Eŭropa Unio, nun !“
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
It has to be! I am korean that can speak English very well and I think that English should be the official language! :]
I hope you have been living in Korea if you say that, and not in USA. Ok. Let’ say English is easy. Do you want to test your easy language? Try reading this aloud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw
Ok, now think about the big amounts of money your country is wasting to teach English with no great results.
Think again, is it fair to make you learn English thousands of hours while someone in the Uk usually don’t bother learning a foreign language? Do you like slavery or freedom? This is freedom http://lingvo.org/prago/en.php
Korean is very, very different from English. The Defense Language Institute, one of the finest institutions of language learning in the world, puts Korean in its, most time consuming category along with Chinese, Japanese, and Arabic. It stands to reason that the reverse would also be true, and that English would be extremely difficult to native Korean speakers.
Sorry, Peter Pan. You say you “can speak English very well”. Yet in the above short sentence, you made 2 mistakes! You should have written “I am a Korean who can speak English very well”. English is so dominant that learners overestimate their ability in it. As a native English speaker, I am shocked by all the mistakes made by learners of English, even after many years studying it. Esperanto is at least 10 times easier than English, and is fair to everybody.
AS always Alex, quick to criticize those who state an opinion favorable to English. I am 100% sure you do not speak English perfectly, I am also 100% sure you do not speak your own native language (if it is not English) nor Esperanto perfectly, nor any of all the other languages you claim to be conversant in. I do not see you criticizing your fellow Esperantist with the same zeal, and they make a lot of silly mistakes. Everybody makes silly mistakes more often than not because you start saying one thing and change your mind along the way. It happens to news anchors, writers and even English teachers, ask Dr. Robb Kvasnak, EdD.
Esperanto may be a lot easier than English, but it is one of the easier languages to learn, pronunciation is little difficult but French, German, Slavic languages are a lot more difficult to learn and to pronounce and they have been suggested in this debate as better alternative, even Latin have been offered as an alternative and Latin is extremely difficult to learn. You did not protest to those suggestions.
Let´s see if you are as quick to accept the true when a direct question is asked from you.
Let say that Peter Pan learn Esperanto, since he learned English and consider it as an easy language to learn that means he will probably learn Esperanto in a couple of months in his sleep. Then what? Will Esperanto be more useful to him than English? If you believe that to be the case I would like you to enlighten me. How? No politics, no activism, no “the World will be better in 100 years with Esperanto.” Just to him, he will not live 100 years.
Just tell me, in practice, in the real World, today. What is more useful, speaking 100% perfect Esperanto or 50% English?
It is because English is very easy to learn!
This is a widely-propagated myth. English looks easy in the beginning, but the more progress you make, the more you realise you do not know. In reality English is extremely difficult. Less than 1% of learners ever reach the C1 level, not to speak of the C2 level.
You wish it were a myth, but no it is not. It is easier, “at the beginning” and “at the end”, than Spanish, French, German and most other European languages. It is easier than all the Asian languages and than all Semitic languages. It is easier than Russian and than all the Slavic languages. it is easier than Latin and most other languages. It may not be easier than Esperanto, I have my doubts, but it is infinitely more useful. Worldwide!
And Sean, you are just a bigot and a bully for saying you are shocked by all the mistakes others do while leaning English, even after many years studying it. I bet that you also make mistakes in English despite being a “native” speaker. Nobody is perfect.
You want to belittle them after they have studied the language for a few years, but you studied the language for more than 18 years just to become passable as a native speaker.
English is a very easy language but nobody, except very few extremely talented people, will learn any language perfectly after a few of years. Most people do not reach a greater proficiency just because they study the language until they, in many cases mistakenly, believe they have achieved the level they think will serve their purposes. The same happens with native speakers who stop their education earlier than they should.
“Parents are turning to specialty preschool and even surgery to give their children a linguistic advantage“ (“Los Angeles Times“, Barbara Demick, March 31 2002)
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/mar/31/news/mn-35590
Korean Tongue Surgery :
http://www.asianplasticsurgeryguide.com/anime/1106_korean-tongue-surgery.html
Esperanto, la internacia lingvo lernebla sen kirurgia operacio ;-)
Easy to learn ?! So why chineses need many years to learn it, when they just need some months to learn the same in Esperanto ? I learnt English 7 years at school and I spoke it as well as Esperanto after one year studying. As my sister arrived in England after those 7 years and being the best one in our class till school leaving certificate, the family in Brighton (where she then worked 3 years) were kindly laughing when she opened her mouth… because of the wrong prononciation and so on… Esperanto prononciation is very easy, conversations between people who live in many different countries show that everytime; I don’t speak of the easiness of vocabulary (for all people in the world, not only for europeans !… because of the affix- affixes plural ?). Grammatical rules ? Just 16, without exceptions. So what about the easiness of English? Sorry when I used wrong tenses, I never understood, I never got the knack (correct?) !
The English Advantage / Avantaĝo de la angla
by / de Den Drown
English
As of late I’ve had the good fortune in my life to be able to travel frequently to Europe for my job. Since I am from the United States, a friend of mine in Germany told me that I have an advantage because all my life I have spoken the closest thing we have to an international language: English. I suppose that he’s right, but still, I find that I have absolutely no desire to have that advantage (…)-
http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/drown.html
The only advantage Americans have they pay less taxes.
“It is easy to mould the intellect of youth, and the addition of Esperanto to the educational curriculum may develop the
most brilliant and varied talents.”
(” Esperanto as an International Auxiliary Language”. Report of the League of Nations, 1922. p. 40)
https://ia801403.us.archive.org/6/items/esperantoasinter00leagrich/esperantoasinter00leagrich.pdf
It is just as easy to mold those young minds in English. The children will develop the most wonderful, brilliant and varied talents in English as well. They already do.
In regard to adults, the Ministerial Reports received state
that in Slav, Germanic and Latin countries, the public courses
in Esperanto generally consist of from 20 to 30 lessons ; in Far-
Eastern countries of from 50 to 60 lessons. In Germany and
in Spain, where there are many Trade Union courses, manual
labourers, knowing only their mother- tongue, manage to speak
Esperanto at the end of a winter’s course, working two evenings
a week. Of course, everything depends on the keenness and
intelligence of the pupil. Some Esperantists make the mistake
of exaggerating the easiness of the language. It may, however,
be stated with perfect truth that Esperanto is eight or ten times
easier than any foreign language and that it is possible to learn
to speak it perfectly without leaving one’s own country. That
in itself is a very appreciable result.
(” Esperanto as an International Auxiliary Language”. Report of the League of Nations, 1922. p. 26)
https://ia801403.us.archive.org/6/items/esperantoasinter00leagrich/esperantoasinter00leagrich.pdf
Be careful Mr. Mason “of from” is incorrect and that may upset Mr. Escomu. Sorry, I take that back, I forgot you are also a Esperantist agitator so he will forgive your mistakes but will try to portrait Peter Pan, a Korean, as stupid because he made a similar silly mistake after saying he speak English well.
I am going to tell you what I think is the motivation of the Esperanto activism in this debate, which by the way is not about Esperanto. You Esperantists are so few and so spread out throughout the World that you feel you need more people talking Esperanto so you do not feel so lonely, that way you will have more people with whom to practice.
This activism is just a big advertising campaign or it is a new strategy from the Commies, or maybe ISIS to take over Europe. I heard that the Koran is already translated to Esperanto, that way it does not have to be translated to all the other languages of the Union. In any case the Esperantists just want to take over the World and force everybody to talk that dreadful language.
“Oh, Yeah. I have little sympathy with that idea.”
“Oh, Yep. I have a little sympathy with that idea.”
Peter Pan, would your English be up to grappling with the distinction if Nigel Farage were to throw one of those at you in a parliamentary joust? Or would you be on a hiding to nothing? OK?
I did not see anywhere that Peter Pan was running for a seat in Parliament.
Activists and fanatics of English :
Charles Ogden (Time, 1934):
“What the World needs most is about 1000 more dead languages – and one more alive”.
Winston Churchill (BBC july 1943) :
“I am very much interested in the question of basic English. The widespread use of this would be a gain to us far more durable and fruitful than the annexation of great provinces”
;-)
1001. Esperanto must be included.
That was in 1943. Now the more people speaking English the smaller the advantage of the British and the Americans, etc. He failed to mention that.
https://www.ted.com/talks/patricia_ryan_ideas_in_all_languages_not_just_english
There is two sides to a coin, always!
https://www.ted.com/talks/jay_walker_on_the_world_s_english_mania
Take notice English learners of the World we have a new ally. The strongest ally we never dreamed of getting. China.
Sorry Esperanto speakers , promoters, advocates and fanatics. China will do what British and Americans could not do with all their economic power. Through sheer will power, and numbers (numbers do count). Take English global!
Well Mr. Mason you can imitate your namesake Perry and give Esperanto a better chance than a snowball in the proverbial Hell with a last minute twist of the evidence and win the case for Esperanto, or can´t you?
And it is not only China. What those who were criticizing Peter Pan do not know is that there is a requirement in many Universities in South Korea that entering students have to have a minimum score in the TOEFL test to be able to register. I met a Korean student entering a University that requires a minimum score of 95 in the TOEFL.
Asia (and India) are very populous areas and they are already sold to the idea of English as a second language. And Indonesia is wising up. And then you call it linguistic imperialism and blame the British and the Americans for it.
Regardless of who is to blame, now more than ever before, there is a very good likelihood of English becoming the World Lingua Franca. Do you not agree? Or are you going to claim, like Perry did in many cases, that the evidence was tainted.
“English to transform the students’ whole world”
http://www.sat-amikaro.org/article609.html
I didn’t say this debate was about Esperanto. However, when thee continually brings up Esperanto, thee is NOT “ignoring” it like thee claims to be doing. When one does something contrary to one’s words, we call that “lying.”
Thy ignorance of Plain Speech is understandable; however, thee is still mistaken: the Bible was never written in Plain Speech, it was written in Elizabethan English, a different creature to be sure. Therefore any drivel thee spews about my “doing the Bible a disservice” is just so much bosh.
And for the record, I was here LONG before I gave up on Esperanto.
“If thee truly is going to “ignore Esperanto” thee will leave this debate; continuing to post here is not ignoring Esperanto.” Since when are you the moderator of this debate? And you have not given up Esperanto otherwise why would you be so upset with me saying I will ignore Esperanto? Who is the liar now?
Additionally I did not say I was going to ignore Esperanto in this debate, only that “I will continue to study English and ignore Esperanto” meaning I was not going to study Esperanto. Maybe so much “Plain Speech” has rendered you incapable of understanding plain modern English.
Alejandro Carlos, if you resort to name-calling, you have already lost the argument. Nobody who know me would describe me as either a “bully” or a “bigot”. If English is so easy, why do you make so many mistakes in it? Learn to write English without mistakes, and then you can tell us how easy it is!
No problem Sean, thanks for the free advise, I will continue to study English and ignore Esperanto. As I said, it is better to speak and understand English badly than Esperanto perfectly. I will always have more people to practice with and the acquired skills are far more useful.
But again you can not “bully” me out of this debate. By the way I was not trying to offend you just stating a fact.
Alejandro, thee shouldn’t speak falsehood. If thee truly is going to “ignore Esperanto” thee will leave this debate; continuing to post here is not ignoring Esperanto
Dimo please, stop talking nonsense. I can accept the biblical drivel, but this debate is not about Esperanto. Read the question at the beginning.
And your reading skills are not good, I did not say others ought to ignore Esperanto, simply that I was going to. And so far as I know you are a nobody and cannot tell me or anybody else to leave this debate. Remember you are a late comer to this debate and you just came because you were kicked out of an Esperantist site by people who did to you what you are trying to do now. Just because you drivel “biblicalese” does not make you an all knowing God, not even a mortal prophet. You are doing the Bible a disservice by using its language to show your ignorance.
And if you are uncomfortable in the presence of people that express opposing ideas you should not be in a debate. That is what a debate is about.
“English is the easiest language to speak badly.”
George Bernard Shaw
;-)
A wise man indeed and he said many things, for example:
“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.”
“A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.”
“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.”
“The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”
George Bernard Shaw
Also:
“Knowledge is of no value unless you put it into practice.”
“Only entropy comes easy.”
Anton Chekhov
“When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is.”
Oscar Wilde
“The only thing worse than a liar is a liar that’s also a hypocrite!”
Tennessee Williams
“It’s no use of talking unless people understand what you say.”
Zora Neale Hurston
“There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.”
William Shakespeare
We can find a quote from a celebrity that fit every desire.
“English is the language most often spoken badly, more people try. Esperanto is the language less mistakes are made in, few people know of it.”
Anonymous
Alejandro wrote: “And you have not given up Esperanto otherwise why would you be so upset with me saying I will ignore Esperanto? Who is the liar now?”Well, that would still be thee. I’m not upset about thy saying thee will ignore Esperanto. What I’m irritated at is that thee is lying by saying thee will ignore Esperanto and then continuing to talk about it, thus uttering falsehood. Note thee did NOT say “in this debate” just the bald statement, which means ignoring it all together, which thee is not doing, thus thee is lying.
And I am irritated at you trying to give a different meaning to what I said. I said “I will continue to *study* English and ignore Esperanto.” If you cannot grasp that I am referring to *studying English and not *studying Esperanto* then I am sorry but I do not speak “Plain Speech”. You will have to come back to modern times.
And even if that were the case, I can change my mind, can´t I?
The result of your deductive inference is wrong, you started with a false premise. Then again you can try to block my participation here as you were blocked from participating in the mentioned Esperanto site for not heeding their desire that you stopped using “Plain Speech” because of its religious implication. I imagine that you were behaving too “holier than thou” for their taste and tolerance threshold. But it has no effect on me, I am vaccinated against the “holier than thou” virus.
But if it makes you happier I will go to church this weekend to confess my sins, repent and be forgiven. I am sure you will agree with me than an “Ego te absolvo in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti” will solve everything.
Alejandro Carlos, I’m afraid you are wrong about the motivation of Esperanto speakers. There are more fluent speakers in over 120 countries than it is possible to speak to in a lifetime. And more original literature than one could read in a lifetime. Our motivation: we have this magnificent instrument, perfect for international communication, and we see so many people struggling with a much more complicated instrument, English, and failing to reach an acceptable standard even after years of study. We want to open people’s eyes and say “Look, there is a better way!”
A few lines from an original poem in Esperanto, which likens Esperanto to the St Gotthard tunnel, between Switzerland and Italy. Before the tunnel was constructed, people walked the 30 kilometers, zig zag, up one side of the mountain and down the other side. The tunnel allows them to make the same journey effortlessly, in a few minutes. To an Esperanto speaker, those struggling with English look like people ignoring the tunnel, and insisting in walking over the mountain. Taking much longer, and making a huge effort, to achieve a much lower level of communicative competence.
“Dum ghi kushas sub okuloj,
Chu ne estas vera honto,
Vidi tiom da blinduloj
Shviti sur la granda monto?”
Free translation:
“While it lies before our eyes,
Is it not a real shame,
To see so many blind people
Sweating on the great mountain?!
That is so true, about 3 million people. What about English? With over one billion speakers in a lot more than 120 countries. There are more original English literature, just from England, than all the original Esperanto literature put together. Let´s not talk about American, Canadian, Australian and other English speaking countries. If the piano had only three keys it will be a much easier to play instrument, but music will not be the same. “Look there is a better way” is exactly what those advocating English tell people. For English speakers, Esperanto speakers are people that prefer to go into the darkness of the tunnel instead of choosing to walk to the top and enjoy the boundless beauty of the panoramic view of the horizon. Everything that is worthwhile takes a greater effort.
“It always seems impossible until its done.” Nelson Mandela.
“A man must be big enough to admit his mistakes, smart enough to profit from them, and strong enough to correct them.” John C. Maxwell
And people feel content when achieving the communicative competence that satisfy their communication needs.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/johncmaxw391398.html#iqwID6wF2dfaLp7p.99
In 1960 black people were still riding in the back of the bus, today we have a black President. There was still apartheid in South Africa, then came Mandela. People change, countries change, more often for the better.
Esperanto was created over 150 years ago, it may have been a good idea then. It may even be a good idea today, but please stop using 60, 40, 20 years old reasons to justify your position.
“Esperanto was created over 150 years ago…”
2016-1887 = ? ;-)))
—
Esperanto: The Dangerous Language Hardcover – Jun 11 2016
by U. Lins (Author), Harris (Translator)
http://www.amazon.ca/Esperanto-Dangerous-Language-U-Lins/dp/1137549165
http://www.ipernity.com/blog/32119/172355
“The closest thing to a universal human language today is English, he added, but English in many ways fails to live up to Zamenhof’s dream, which was to help create a more egalitarian world.”
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/12/091215-ll-zamenhof-google-doodle-esperanto-150th-birthday.html
Jonathan Pool :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pool
The closest thing to a blissful utopia on Earth was the Communist Ideal, which was also to create a more egalitarian society but it also failed to live up to the expectation of its creators.
La esprimo “talk that dreadful language” indikas la mankon de edukado de la skribinto – en la angla oni ne uzas la verbon ‘talk’ kun lingvo. La korekta esprimo estas ‘speak a language’. Mi instruas la anglan. Ŝajnas ke ne ĉiu kiu studas ĝin scias eĉ la plej bazajn konceptojn de tiu lingvo.
I once read a letter from a Korean doctor, who had calculated the total amount of time he had devoted to studying English. He calculated that, in that amount of time, he could have completed not 1 but 3 Ph.Ds!!! Yet, despite this vast amount of study, he still felt disadvantaged in negotiating with American or British native speakers.
That speaks for itself, for anybody whose mind is not already closed.
Happy New Year Kvasnak! Actually it was a change of mind. I wrote “speak that” and decided to change it to “talk in that”. Miss the “in” somehow. I have seen worse errors from your friends and you never said anything.
In other occasions is just literary license.
“It’s no use of talking unless people understand what you say.”
Zora Neale Hurston
But is good to know that there is someone out there “worried” about my English skills and willing to offer free advise. Thank you!
It would have been nicer though if you have done the criticizing in the language in question. No need to hide. The best part of being civilized is that we do not have to be enemies just because we have opposing points of views. And “fencing” with words is a lot better than doing it with swords. And finally.
“A good upbringing means not that you won’t spill sauce on the tablecloth, but that you won’t notice it when someone else does.”
Anton Chekhov
Was he including all the sleepless nights he spent while doing the doctorate because if he was then he was a very dumb doctor. And negotiating is an acquired skills for most people, very few have a natural talent for it. Some people even go University to learn how to do it.
In June 1998, a survey carried out by the BBC among its listeners to know what they thought of the idea of doing of English the single official language of the European Union, a Korean researcher, Kin Hiongun, answered: “Korea invests enormous amounts in the teaching of English. If I could have used my time in my own way, I could have obtained five doctorates in the years that I was obliged to study English.”
This is ‘fernur talk’ (foreigner speak) for what my students, native English speakers, write at the college level before they take remedial classes:English is so easy that even young Americans about five to six years to spend with the legal case in so-called spellingbees. In the time they have little opportunity to learn the actual structure of the essay so that it then at the university can not write properly already in high school and later. The foreign students in my courses write indeed faulty towers but on the other hand, the logic is true. For most poorly educated English remains a book with seven seals.
Hier ist der deutsche Text dazu:
Englisch ist so einfach dass sogar junger Amerikaner ungefähr fünft bis sechs Jahre mit der Rechtsschreibung verbringen in sogenannten spellingbees. In der Zeit haben sie wenig Gelegenheit, die eigentliche Struktur des Aufsatzes zu lernen so dass sie schon in der High School und dann später an der Uni nicht richtig schreiben können. Die ausländischen Studenten in meinen Kursen schreiben zwar fehlerhafte Aufsätze aber hingegen stimmt die Logik. Für die meisten wenig gebildeten bleibt Englisch ein Buch mit sieben Siegeln.
You will have to do a lot better than that.
Stupid and dishonest!
Compare Marx (or Lenin…) with Zamenhof.
1867: “Das Kapital”
1887: “Международный язык” (International Language)
Nazism and communism —> terror regimes: persecution against Esperanto
Esperanto ? Persecuted, never persecutor
Zamenhof (1859-1917) & Gandhi (1869-1948) – Penskonverĝo / Convergence de pensée (Convergence of thought) = http://www.ipernity.com/doc/32119/album/851690
AS stupid and dishonest as many of the statements uttered by Esperantists herein.
For example, your statement. I did not compare Marx (or Lenin) with Zamenhof. Anyone can make false, exaggerated and shocking statements. “If you learn English you are a Slave.”
I never compared “Esperantism” to Nazism nor to Communism, I just pointed out the Communist “Ideal” was claimed to be what it was not, or at least what it did not turn be. With Esperanto we simply do not know how it is going to turn out to be, and neither do you.
Esperantists make claims that simply they cannot guarantee. Having a dream is one thing making it a reality is another. But what really mortifies me (and looking at many responses, a lot of other people) is the presumption than only Esperanto can be used to achieve the goal Esperantists claim as their “Ideal” and how they twist the whole thing and blame it on the English language. Americans (and History) will be the same regardless of the language they (Americans, British, Germans, etc.) spoke.
The English language, despite its Germanic roots have been shaped by German, Latin, Spanish and even French, as well as many other influences. And although its pronunciation is not its best and easier feature still it is easier than the pronunciation of many of the languages rightfully suggested herein. And Americans come from all parts of the World. There are British-Americans, Greek-Americans, French-Americans, Italia-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Cuban-Americans, Russian-Americans and so on ad infinitum. So calling English an “Ethnic” language is a little, just a little, misdirecting. A National Language? Yes, over 20 strong as a primary language and almost 70 as the Official Language. An ethnic Language? Not so much.
Also very annoying is that Esperantists want people to take their words as the gospel. People have the right to think differently. And that Esperantists have taken this debate and tried to convert it into an Esperanto advocacy, activism and propaganda site, browbeating any who dare to take the opposing view, is very irritating too.
Having an “official”language in europe makes no sense. If “Europe” gives a flying fuck about it’s cultures and heritage that is.
It’s good of course to know different languages and english is especially useful nowadays for sure.
But why a Greek for example to want to throw using the Greek language that is the most ancient and richest in Europe to the bin?
All languages and cultures are important.
Why have first rate and second rate languages?
Having some languages as “working” languages makes sense to the EU bureaucracy of course but makes no sense to the rest of the citizens.
Tre utila flanko de Esperanto ŝajnas esti ke eĉ tiuj kiuj ne studis ĝin komprenas ĝin. Homoj en ĉi-tiu fadeno respondas al tekstoj en Esperanto eĉ se ili kontraŭstaras ĝian studadon. Foje ili malĝentile respondas, sed ili respondas. Tio pruvas ke Esperanto estas ĝenerale facile komprenebla lingvo.
Lerninte Esperanton (por tio mi bezonis tri semajnojn) mi devis iri al Japanujo por nia firmao. Tie mi kontaktis Esperantistojn. Inteligenta kunulo mia, kiu aŭdis nin interparoli, miris pro tio, ke li sukcesis relative bone kompreni nian konversacion, kvankam li mem nur elemente scipovis la francan, germanan kaj anglan lingvojn.
Very witty!
“Practising the most widely used constructed language after 1(!) day. It is a very simple language, because it was developed as the easiest language possible.” —
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrcIfdQykBo&feature=share
Ja Ja. What is next? Conversant in just one minute?
Geen Engels als “opgelegde” wereldtaal. Esperanto zou overal ingang moeten vinden, als kunstmatige (dus geen superioriteitsgevoel) en super eenvoudige (veel eenvoudiger dan het Engels of welke andere taal dan ook) tweede taal, waardoor ieder zijn eigen taal als de eerste kan behouden en toch in staat is te spreken en dialogeren met iedereen ter wereld, welke ook de eigen taal is. Zo wordt ook niemand bevoordeeld en is er ook geen verdenking van geïmporteerde vreemde cultuur en economische superioriteit. Ik stel voor het Esperanto vanaf vandaag overal op te nemen in het basis onderwijs.
nl: Uw stelling is een kort en duidelijk pleidooi voor de taal, die speciaal ontwikkeld werd als internationale taal. Zie bv. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto
eo: Via teksto estas konciza kaj klara pledo por la lingvo, kiu estis evoluigita speciale kiel internacia lingvo. Vidu ekzemple https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto kaj la titolpaĝon de la unua eldono de Zamenhof ĉe
https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#/media/File:Unua_Libro.jpg
en: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto
You can see the title page of the first edition by dr. Zamenhof on https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#/media/File:Unua_Libro.jpg
The nickname of the autor is “Dr. Esperanto” and the title is “International Language”.
And how do you plan to eliminate the economic and all other inequalities and injustices by adopting Esperanto. Is Esperanto magical in addition to easy? China has been getting to the head of the class in economic and industrial power for the last twenty years, and they are not done yet. Last time I checked they do not speak English.
I think it is high time that Esperanto advocates start giving us details about how they plan to accomplish all their wild promises and claims about Esperanto ending all the maladies of the World.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
With this comment of mine I might not convince everybody but I am sure that at least the computer nerds would get a pretty good idea of what I am trying to say.
Please allow me to compare two things that everyone have experienced in their lives but might be unaware of the existence of alternatives. Just like we all here can speak at least one language (or more, for those who happened to have been born off the British shores), we all have used some sort of an operating system on our computers (unless you send your posts to a friend of yours attached to a pigeon’s leg and then he types it in for you). However, what operating system is it? Let me guess. Just like the 99% of the Europeans who don’t speak Esperanto or haven’t heard of it, in the same manner, they are using Windows or Mac, and not Linux. But why is that? Is it because the OS X is damn cheap or Windows OS is virus-resistant? No. Sadly, you are all victims to the media hype created by the huge corporations. ‘Our products are the most widely-used’ they say (or was it most widely-spoken). ‘Our interface is very sleek’ (or was it the sounds of English were very refined).
Of course what they wouldn’t tell you is that both of them are very high maintenance. For example, no one would mention that you can download Lubuntu (or any other Linux distro) for free from the internet (like lernu.net) instead of paying at least £100 for Windows or £330 for a IELTS test which will expire in a year time, not to mention the amount of money you will have spent to achieve any level to sit the test in the first place. Or maybe the fact that you need some 3GB RAM Memory to run Windows whereas 300MB would be enough for Lubuntu. Because you need a lot of time and memory to learn all that kinky spelling the English-speaking children learn for two years as opposed to one term in a Bulgarian school.
But of course they won’t tell you this. Because they are big. Because they control the internet like America controls the media. Why would CNN, BBC, DW, France24 or EuroNews have an Esperanto edition? Because this would be tantamount to telling your customers in an Apple Store that Lenovo running Android is actually faster.
Sadly, not many Europeans are switched on to wake up and realise the thick blanket thrown over their eyes overcasting their eagerness for contact with the rest of Europe. Now hush dear European fellows and sleep well, because tomorrow you will have a long day learning the millions of words that even many English folks don’t understand, let alone pronounce with their broad accents.
Even if all that were true, which it is not so black and white and one sided as herein depicted, the fact remain of “how is the implementation of Esperanto going to end all the maladies of the World?” Is Microsoft going to become smaller overnight just as a consequence of adopting Esperanto? Are Apple’s products going to be cheaper? or Starbucks? Are the people in Bangladesh and Congo and Indonesia going to adquire wealth just by adopting Esperanto. The maladies of the world are not a product of the English language, but of people behavior, Americans, British, Germans, French, Spaniards, Italians, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, etc. They will continue behaving the same way regardless the language they speak. Forget the language, fix the people. Can Esperanto do that? How?
At the end of the day, it comes down to a matter of mutual intelligibility. In a Union of over 28 different countries and nearly as many different languages, having one language to enable people to communicate effectively is essential.
English is already there. English is used as a unifying language in the EU and all over the world, where 2 non-English native speakers will still use English to communicate with each other.
English is already at this point and resisting it is pointless and more a matter of national pride than practicality, and only highlights the divisions between nation states in the EU. No-one is suggesting replacing national languages with English, only that English should be taught alongside national languages.
Unfortunately “replacing national languages with English” is precisely what is happening, whether we like it or not. At first in things like writing theses at university, then in lecturing at university – where everybody has studied English but not the local language, what chance does the local language have? English tends to spread like a forest fire, and trying to decide that we will use English for this purpose but not for that one is as futile as telling a forest fire to burn one area of a forest, not not other areas.
Those who do not believe this should study what happened in my country, Ireland!
But the use of Esperanto would not threaten local languages in the same way as English domination does, because it is 10 times easier than English, and because it is not the language of any dominant power! It is irresponsible, and bordering on cultural crime, to ignore Esperanto simply because we know English and do not know Esperanto.
“And then there was only one.” That is what you say is happening with English but it is what you wish happened with Esperanto.
Oh please! Alejandro, shut up! if according to your great wisedom Esperanto is even not a language and has no real chances for anything, why are you replying every single comment where Esperanto is mentioned? Can’t you even believe your words? You do have a lot of time, how many days have you spent here? and you want more information even if we all know you won’t read or believe it. Simply stupid.
People here are, including you Alejandro, very short-sighted and not ready to reply this question “Should English be the ONLY OFFICIAL language of the EU?” with rational arguments (you twist every single word other say, as if you didn’t know English at all). It’s obvious they come and just say the first thing that came to their mind. In a physical debate every argument for English would be easily refuted, but writing it here (as it is) people don’t read it anymore and people like Alejandro forget everything said…
One year ago you started replying as someone who only knew Spanish and English… and the more comments you wrote, the more languages you came out to know! incredible! I definitely want to skype with you to practice Mandarin, Esperanto (you!? do you understand what you type?) French, and my quite rusted German. Are you on Facebook? Contact me, I am Alex Escomu. I can that way check if you told me the truth or you’ve been a simple liar.
One year ago i said and quoted:
” ‘I have been all over Europe and speak several other languages besides English and Spanish. French, Italian, German and (another surprise) Esperanto.’ How many languages do you REALLY SPEAK? Because now you added Cantonese and Mandarin to your list. And Esperanto? Come on! ”
You didn’t reply. Will you now?
People living outside the EU, which are here supporting/promoting an official de jure imposition of greater inequality in the UE through an ONLY OFFICIAL EU language make me sick. I can’t already stand the de facto situation where obviously EU citizens are not equally treated in the EU (through only English, French and German) and mainly Alejandro, who has received so many replies, can’t see anything. I know elderly people almost never change their mind… but some are so persistent with anyone, even if they are mentioned anywhere. Well, here, Alejandro Carlos, you are mentioned a few times.
I have already said everything I wanted to say, but it will be unforgivable to let you (by that I mean Esperantists, not just you) to continue with your uncalled for activism and baseless claims without calling your bluff. If Esperantists consider they have the right to continue with their already worn out claims then people with opposing views also have the right to express their opinion, no matter how senseless, after all most of the thing you claim do not make any sense.
You and all other Esperantists have already made your point, but continue to post the same arguments without other poof of your claims that a few slogans and some quotes from people claiming the same as you but that do not prove their arguments either and when you are asked to answer specific questions you always go out in a tangent. Same rhetoric, same demagoguery.
So, are you ready to answer some hard questions. Just tell us how? How is Esperanto going to remedy all of the World problems? and how it is going to manage to make all poor people solvent and all rich people “unrich”? and how it is going to end inequality and injustice and greed and discrimination? How?
I see so many arguments in your comments i had never noticed myself… Well… Don’t you wanna talk in Mandarin with me? Ok, skip this question. I can consider you lied then (nice for a debate)
With that kind of stupid questions at the end, as if we ever said Esperanto would erase any sort of discrimination/poverty/etc (it would diminish it as Grin’s report concluded, but you’ll never mind, of course) you are showing we can’t take you seriously. Childish questions, only echoes from your closed mind.
No, I did not and no, I do not. But I am glad you are studying Chinese. I studied it because my grandfather was Chinese, but my studying Mandarin did not make much sense since he did not speak Mandarin but Cantonese, which is called traditional Chinese nowadays, and he was long gone when I was born. My proficiency has degraded considerably for lack of practice.
I know they are rhetorical, not stupid, because I know the answer and so do you. And yes, that is what have been implied in proposing the use of Esperanto as a universal second language.
And yes, I learned Esperanto in the late sixties when it became fashionable in Cuba, but I can really say that I remember much of it after almost fifty years. I am sorry but after a while I did not see any usefulness to it then, nor now. I have also said it elsewhere that I really have nothing against Esperanto as a language, my preference for English is based entirely in pragmatic considerations. I have also said that it is going to be up to the people to chose one language or another. If they chose Esperanto so be it. Anyhow, I am not going to be around that long.
La respondoj ĉi tie estas bona pruvo ke homoj ne scipovas kompreni la anglan. La demandon kaj la sekvojn certe multaj respondintoj tute ne komprenas aŭ antaŭvidas. Aldone, ne ekzistas enketo kie vidi la kvanton de neoj, jesoj, kaj proponoj por solvi la diratan problemon pli efike. Estus interese, el 2000 komentoj de sufiĉe altnivelaj anglaj scipovantoj, kalkuli kiom da homoj rifuzis la demandan proponon, kiom jesis, kaj kiom sugestis alian aferon (kaj scii la devenlandon de ĉiuj, kaj eble la loĝatan landon).
Mi ĵus kalkulis per serĉilo enpaĝa ke s-ro AlejandroCarlos komentis jam 214foje! Li estas tiom konvinkita homo pri la angla kaj ĝia estonteco ke li bezonas pli ol 10% el la entutaj komentoj por konvinki nin aŭ la aliajn (aŭ eble liaj argumentoj tiom aĉas…). Kompare, mi nur 34 komentojn (inkluzive ĉi tiu) skribis. HenriMasson, precipe por informi ĝenerale al homoj, skribis 32. RobbKvasnak komentis 33foje.
If you had answered in English more people would have read your comment, but this way you are just preaching to the chorus.
Based on your statistics, you have commented 34 times, Mr. Masson, 32, Dr. Kvasnak 33. You did not mention many others that have also commented several times advocating Esperanto, which prove that you and them are trying to turn this into an Esperanto advocacy forum.
By the way; in none of those comments you or them have given any good reason proving that adopting English is going to be bad, except of course that:
“English is BAD”, “English is imperialistic”, “Esperanto is good”, “”Esperanto is easier to learn”, and many other bad slogans.
If you want to communicate with other people who do not speak your native language then you can speak Esperanto to 3 million people or you can speak English to a thousand million (and about an additional two thousand million presently studying it). Make a choice.
For practical purposes it is English hands down.
Have you noticed how any time I respond to one person all of you come out and attack me in group. I can help being polite and answering each and everyone of you. That is the reason I have so many comments. I am just showing my good upbringing.
Foje la plej simplau solvoj pro probemo kaŝiĝas malantaŭ iedeologia kurteno, kiel estas la kazo de la multaj kunfuza elkubaj rifiĝintoj. Il pensas laŭ nigra-blanka ŝemo. Ĉio en la hispana, ĉio socie helpema, estas malico pro la malbonaj faraĉoj de la Kastro-fratoj. Ĉio bonas venas senkritike el Usono. Oni devas skalve sekvi la usonan modelon ĉar ĝi etas sui genere kontraŭkatrista.
Estas simpa rezonado sed estas la plej ofta rezonado de la olduloj el Kubo en nia regiono.
Your are so right! Sometimes the simplest solutions to big problems hide behind them an ideological curtain that prevent people from seeing clearly what is in store for them. For example, “Esperanto is easier and fairer.”
And so hypocritical! You use the same slogans they (the communists) did when they started, when nobody knew how things were going to turn out. How are things going to turn out with Esperanto? Well, if you only change the language then you will end up with imperialists who speak Esperanto. “Mikrosofto Fenestroj Programaro kaj Pomo Komputiloj”.
If you want to fight imperialism you will have to do it elsewhere and in English so a greater number of people will understand you. Here we are talking about languages and their usefulness not political ideologies. And the Castro brothers did not invent Communism, they just used it to enslave a whole country. Communism was invented in Europe and was widespread and flourishing in Europe by the time the Castro appeared in scene and followed a well established path to absolutism.
This is not a debate about how good or bad the American, or the Brits, are. They are just like everybody else. But it is undeniable that even though their system is not without flaws and injustices, they have done more for the betterment of the World than what the available alternatives would have done.
And what are yo going to do about the new nascent Russian imperialism? What about the Chinese? Please, do not leave out the European imperialism. And do not forget the Muslims. Do you think any of them gives a hoot about Esperanto?
And if Esperanto is so much better why do you not stop teaching English and teach Esperanto instead. You will be doing so much more for the cause.
Akuzo pri “propagando” kadre de “Debating Europe”*…
Alejandro Carlos akuzas la parolantojn de Esperanto pri aktivismo kaj propagando. Nu, tio kion li faras estas tipa aktivismo kaj propagando por la angla.
Tio kion li skribas treege similas al tio, kion diris la brita ĉefministro Gordon Brown la 17an de januaro 2008 ĉe BBC en propaganda parolado por la angla sub la titolo “The World’s language”. Li anoncis radikalan planon por disvastigi la anglan en Hindio kaj Ĉinio :
“Gordon Brown to spearhead trip to China and India by announcing radical plan to promote English language across the world.” (The Guardian)
Nu, Kvankam Britio koliniigis Hindion dum pli ol tri jarcentoj, la angla restas ankoraŭ nun la lingvo de elito, de privilegiita klaso.
Profesoro Robert Phillipson, kiu okupis dum 9 jaroj diversajn funkciojn sine de British Council, povis observi la aferon : malantaŭ propagando por la angla troviĝas ŝtatoj kaj potencaj premgrupoj. Estas nenio komparebla malantaŭ Esperanto. La vero pri la tutmonda disvastigo de la angla estas kaŝita al la tuta homaro. Lia libro “Linguistic Imperialism” (1992) estas parte legebla interrete. Daŭrigo aperis en 2010 sub la titolo “Linguistic Imperialism Continued”.
Efektive, pludaŭras tio, kio estis planita jam en 1961 : http://minilien.fr/a0aelu
* — https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/english-official-language-eu/
Accusation de “propagande” dans le cadre de “Debating Europe”
Alejandro Carlos accuse les locuteurs de l’espéranto d’activisme et de propagande. Eh bien, ce qu’il fait est typiquement de l’activisme et de la propagande pour l’anglais.
Ce qu’il écrit est très semblable à ce que déclara le premier ministre britannique Gordon Brown, le 17 Janvier 2008 à la BBC dans un discours de propagande pour l’anglais sous le titre “la langue du monde”. Il annonça un plan radical pour propager l’anglais en Inde et en Chine:
“Gordon Brown to spearhead trip to China and India by announcing radical plan to promote English language across the world.“ (The Guardian)
Eh bien, bien que le Royaume-Uni ait colonisé l’Inde durant plus de 3 siècles, l’anglais reste aujourd’hui la langue de l’élite, d’une classe privilégiée.
Le professeur Robert Phillipson, qui a joué pendant 9 ans diverses fonctions au sein du British Council, a pu observer l’affaire : derrière la propagande pour l’anglais, il y a des États et des groupes de pression puissants. Il n’y a rien de comparable derrière l’espéranto. La vérité sur la propagation mondiale de l’anglais est cachée à l’ensemble de l’humanité. Son livre “Linguistic Imperialism” (1992) est partiellement lisible en ligne. Une suite est parue en 2010 sous le titre “Linguistic Imperialism Continued”.
En effet, ce qui fut planifié à partir de 1961 continue : http://minilien.fr/a0aelu
* – https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/english-official-language-eu/
Only in response to your, and others, Esperanto activism. I have just tried, in my humble opinion, to point out the flaws in such a position. But in the end it will not matter what you or I have to say, the people will chose and they not always go the way they are asked to. Who knows Esperanto may still win he day. But only if you are capable of showing them they will benefit from Esperanto more than from English, now, not one hundred years in the future. Can you?
I favor English from a practical point of view not an ideological one. My experience is that people who learn English tend to do better than otherwise and that is what I tell people.
Well, for the short run, I favor English from a practical point of view but of course not an ideological one, for a short period (you’ll never see me telling people not to learn English if they want to get the benefits it bring, nor Spanish etc. Even not a little language if they think they’ll enjoy it).
I favor Esperanto too, from a current practical point of view too (and its bigger potential) AND from an ideological one (more fairness and easiness).
I already know your point, i share it too (but not for the long run). Why can’t you stop and let us inform about our other point (for us as the long run one) to those people, like my 5 years ago, who might be interested in it? I would have said 7 years ago, maybe, that English was the easiest language and the best one for the EU. But you see? Once you know an alternative, and in my case you experience it fully, i cannot tell people from time to time what compared the the other point i think would be better (not based on illusions, but many facts and experiences, many shared with you on the English point side)
As I said Alex, I already have my fill. And again, this is not the place for the activism and the propaganda. And again, nothing we say here is going to influence the outcome one way or the other. So I am going to listen to your advise and shut up for good.
Politics.co.uk — Thursday, 17 January 2008 12:00 AM : “To facilitate Britain’s linguistic global dominance, the prime minister has launched an international ‘teach yourself English’ website.”
Carlos Alejandro, official propagandist and activist of English, disciple of Gordon Brown…
Why not ? ;-)
I wish! By the way it is Alejandro Carlos. And what is wrong with that? Had it been a website to “tech yourself Esperanto” you would have been thrilled. So if Mr. Brown want to help people to succeed it is imperialism but if it Esperanto then the people of the World are being liberated. Give me a break!
Alejandro…JUST MUTE UP!
Firstly, I find it unnecessary that you first replied to my comment above because it was addressed more at people who are adept at computers. Obviously, you are not.
My analogy of comparing Windows and Mac was as opposed to better and cheaper alternatives such as Linux (doubt it you’ve ever heard of it), not Esperanto.
Secondly, the topic is English and languages within European Content, not Global!
Thirdly, referring to one of your later comments as to whether Esperanto is going to solve the inequality and all the problems in the world…it probably isn’t, partly because most of them are created by the powerful English-speaking folks. And do not try convince me that English could be the hero…knowing that America and England have one of the most class-divided societies in the world.
This is a public debate; anybody can comment/respond to any comment.
“Firstly,” if what you are saying is that you used that comparison just to talk about computers then you are in the wrong debate. If you used it as an analogy with the topic of the debate, then I was right on the money. I have worked with computers since the late seventies, but you can think whatever you want about my computers skills, that is not the subject of this debate.
“Secondly,” the topic is whether English should be the only official language in the Union. Nobody have said anything about eliminating other languages in the Union, except Esperantists. But then again the “Union” if composed by the larger association of “1st World” countries, whatever they do will affect the rest of the World profoundly, including the US, the UK and their satellites.
“Thirdly,” that is exactly the topic of the controversy between some Esperantists here and myself. They are easy to recognize, every time me or anybody else make a comment favorable to English they crawl out of the woodwork and start yelling foul. They want to change the topic of this debate to an Esperanto activism forum. The question was posted in English, but they constantly show their bad upbringing by expressing themselves in Esperanto or their respective languages. Even in the Union, English is the language the largest group of people understand and can comment in.
Esperantists are so democratic that they want to leave out most of the people in the Union (and the World) that do not speak Esperanto nor other languages but their own and English, however badly they do it. They will do a bigger favor to their cause if they explained their reasons in a language that more than about three million people can understand. They speak Esperanto and only a handful of people will listen or understand, they speak English and the masses will pay attention.
The only inconvenience is that if two people do not have a common language they cannot understand each other, talking with each other is useless. And if they speak English and the people understand is because they already speak English so what is the use of Esperanto?
I do no want to convince you of anything, anything that is going to happen will happen despite your or mine opinion. But it will be wise to reconsider your position from a more sensible perspective.
Pri la fakto ke la homaro ne estas jam dulingva grandparte kulpas la franca ŝtato .
Post la Unua Mondmilito, ekde 1921, ĉe la Ligo de Nacioj, ĝi malhelpis debaton kaj eĉ vetois al propono de 14 ŝtatoj-membroj por ke Esperanto estu instruata kiel internacia helplingvo en ĉiuj lernejoj de la mondo. Inter la 14 ŝtatoj-membroj estis 9 ekstereŭropaj inter kiuj Brazilo, Ĉilio, Ĉinio, Haitio, Hindio, Japanio, Kolombio, Persio kaj Sudafriko.
Samtempe, la ministro pri publika instruado malpermesis uzon de klasĉambroj por Esperanto-kursoj (la samon faris la nazia reĝimo en la sekvanta jardeko).
El la afero de la Ligo de Nacio restas tamen pozitiva raporto de la Ĝenerala sekretariejo :
• L’espéranto comme langue auxiliaire internationale
• http://vortareto.free.fr/argumentaire/sdn/sdn_index.htm
• Esperanto as an international auxiliary language
• https://archive.org/details/esperantoasinter00leagrich
Poste, la anglalingvaj potencoj, ĉefe Usono kaj Britio, strebis forpreni de la franca la rolon de diplomatia lingvo kaj de ĉefa internacia lingvo. Aperas klare ke, depost 1961, la celo estis enmeti “viruson” en la cerbon de la studentoj : “English to transform the students’ whole world” — http://sat-amikaro.org/article609.html
Ankoraŭ nun, ĝenerala dulingveco de Eŭropo kaj de la tuta homaro estus pli rapide kaj pli facile atingebla, ankaŭ multege malpli kosta, per malpli da instruistoj (multaj fariĝus liberaj por dediĉi sin al aliaj fakoj) kaj ĉefe multe malpli diskriminacia, do, pli justa per Esperanto ol per la angla, spite la grandegan diferencon de la nombro da parolantoj.
Sed estas tabuoj kaj disvastigantoj de antaŭjuĝoj. La unua farenda afero estas ebligi al la publiko scii kio estas vere Esperanto.
—
FR
L’État français est en grande partie coupable du fait que l’humanité n’est pas déjà bilingue.
Après la Première Guerre mondiale, à partir de 1921, à la Société des Nations, il entrava les débats et opposa même un veto à la proposition de 14 États-membres visant l’enseignement de l’espéranto comme langue auxiliaire internationale dans toutes les écoles du monde. Parmi les 14 États-membres, il y en avait 9 extérieurs à l’Europe : le Brésil, le Chili, la Chine, Haïti, l’Inde, le Japon, la Colombie, la Perse et l’Afrique du Sud.
Dans le même temps, l’utilisation des salles de classe pour les cours d’espéranto fut interdite par le ministre de l’instruction publique (le régime nazi fit la même chose dans la décennie suivante).
Pour ce qui est de l’affaire de la Société des Nations, il reste cependant un rapport positif du Secrétariat général :
• L’espéranto comme langue auxiliaire internationale
• http://vortareto.free.fr/argumentaire/sdn/sdn_index.htm
• Esperanto as an international auxiliary language
• https://archive.org/details/esperantoasinter00leagrich
Par la suite, les puissances anglophones, principalement les États-Unis et le Royaume-Uni, s’efforcèrent de reprendre du français le rôle de langue diplomatique et de principale langue internationale. Il apparaît clairement que, depuis 1961, l’objectif était d’insérer un “virus” dans le cerveau des élèves: “L’anglais pour transformer monde entier des étudiants” — http://sat-amikaro.org/article608.html
Même maintenant, un bilinguisme général de l’ensemble de l’humanité serait plus rapide et plus facile à atteindre, beaucoup moins coûteux aussi, avec moins d’enseignants (beaucoup deviendraient disponibles pour se consacrer à d’autres matières) et surtout beaucoup moins discriminatoire, donc, plus équitable avec l’espéranto qu’avec l’anglais, en dépit de l’énorme différence du nombre de locuteurs.
Mais il y a des tabous et des propagateurs de préjugés. La première chose à faire est de permettre au public de savoir ce qu’est vraiment l’espéranto.
Nine Men’s Morris is a lovely game just like Chess. But Nine Men’s Morris is accessible for much more people than Chess… Young and old, educated and uneducated, clever and not so clever can play it with success!!! This is the only difference between Esperanto (or another scientifically built up easy artificial language) and English (or any other natural languages.) I have already suggested going back to Latin, if you want an organic language. It was good for Europe for two millennia… PLEASE DO NOT SAY: IT’S DIFFICULT!!! You won’t find easy natural languages in Europe… including English…
Problemoj de disleksio pli ofte aperas en lernado de la angla ol de aliaj lingvoj, aparte la itala :
Des problèmes de dyslexie apparaissent plus fréquemment dans l’apprentissage de l’anglais que d’autres langues, en particulier l’italien :
“English is a complicated language to learn, with 44 different spoken sounds (called “phonemes”) and over 200 different ways to write the sounds (called “graphemes” – for example, the “F” sound is heard in ‘fun’, ‘puff’, ‘phone’, ‘rough’, and ‘Pfeiffer”), making English one of the most challenging languages to learn (Harm & Seidenberg, 2004). Italian, on the other hand, has only 25 phonemes and 33 graphemes (yes, there are far fewer Italian dyslexics). Normally, word meaning is derived through visual orthography (sight-word reading) or by phonological processing (decoding words through sounds of letters and letter combinations). However, the reader must also derive meaning from words based on:
Various pronunciations of the same ending (‘rough’ vs. ‘dough’ vs. ‘bough’ vs. ‘cough’)
Inflection (“I object!” vs. “I have an object”)
Parts of speech (the verb “he leaves” vs. the noun “the leaves”)
Context of the sentence (“surf” the ocean vs. the Internet)
Context of the paragraph (“free shot” in basketball vs. in a bar)
And the countless words that come from languages all over the world (‘gesundheit’, ‘karaoke’, ‘chutzpah’, ‘burrito’, ‘ballet’, etc.).”
( http://www.rafflebraininstitute.com/articles-and-publications/dyslexia-not-learning-disability%E2%80%93it%E2%80%99s-brain-disorder )
kaj por maŝinoj (ekz. en aŭtomata tradukado) :
et pour les machines (par ex. dans la traduction automatique) :
Eckhard Bick :
“La angla malbone funkcias kiel ponta lingvo por Google, ekz. inter la dana kaj sveda. En nia firmao [GramTrans http://gramtrans.com/%5D ni tradukas aux rekte, sen pontlingvo, aŭ kun pontlingvo tipologie tre parenca al aŭ la fontlingvo aŭ la cellingvo (la kazo de la skandinavaj lingvoj inter si).”
(“l’anglais fonctionne mal comme langue-pont pour Google, par exemple entre le danois et le suédois. Dans notre firme, nous traduisons ou directement, sans langue-pont, ou avec une langue-pont typologiquement très parente, soit avec la langue source, soit avec la langue de destination (le cas des langues scandinaves entre elles)”.)
Eckhard Bick realigis la aŭtomatan tradukon de la anglalingva versio de Wikipedia sub la nomo “WikiTrans” http://epo.wikitrans.net/
Eckhard Bick ra réalisé la traduction automatique de la version en anglais de Wikipedia sous le nom “WikiTrans” http://epo.wikitrans.net/
Teknikistoj de Google miris pri la taŭgeco de Esperanto en tiu funkcio :
Des techniciens de Google ont été étonnés par l’adéquation de l’espéranto dans cette fonction :
“The Google Translate team was actually surprised about the high quality of machine translation for Esperanto. As we know from many experiments, more training data (which in our case means more existing translations) tends to yield better translations. For Esperanto, the number of existing translations is comparatively small. German or Spanish, for example, have more than 100 times the data; other languages on which we focus our research efforts have similar amounts of data as Esperanto but don’t achieve comparable quality yet. Esperanto was constructed such that it is easy to learn for humans, and this seems to help automatic translation as well.”
( http://googletranslate.blogspot.fr/2012/02/tutmonda-helplingvo-por-ciuj-homoj.html )
EN — Esperanto, an official language of the European Union, now!
We, citizens of Europe and of the world, call upon you to make Esperanto the 25th language of the European Union, for a Europe that is more democratic and more just with respect to every language and culture on the continent. Choosing Esperanto is another step in the construction of Europe. There is a lack of debate at the European level. Europe must not be only an economic entity; it must be a Europe of the peoples.
FR — L’Espéranto, langue officielle de l’Union européenne, maintenant !
Nous, citoyens d’Europe et du monde, nous vous appelons à faire de l’espéranto la 25ème langue de l’Union Européenne, pour une Europe plus démocratique et plus équitable vis-à-vis de chaque langue et culture du continent. Choisir l’espéranto, c’est un pas de plus dans la construction européenne. Il manque un débat au niveau européen, l’Europe ne doit pas seulement être économique, elle doit aussi être l’Europe des peuples.
DE — Esperanto, Amtssprache der Europäischen Union, jetzt!
Wir, Bürger Europas und der Welt, wir rufen Sie auf Esperanto zur 24. Sprache der Europäischen Union zu machen, für ein Europa, das demokratischer und gerechter ist gegenüber jeder Sprache und Kultur des Kontinents. Esperanto wählen ist ein weiterer Schritt beim Aufbau eines gemeinsamen Europa. Es fehlt eine Debatte auf europäischer Ebene, Europa darf nicht nur ein Europa der Wirtschaft sein, es muss auch ein Europa der Völker sein.
ES — El Esperanto, lengua oficial de Europa, ya !
Nosotros, ciudadanos de Europa y del mundo, le pedimos que haga del esperanto la 25a lengua de la Unión Europea, para una Europa más democrática y más equitativa con respecto a cada lengua y cultura del continente. Elegir el esperanto es un paso más en la construcción europea. Falta un debate al nivel europeo, Europa no debe ser sólo económica también debe ser la Europa de los pueblos.
IT — L’Esperanto, lingua ufficiale dell’Unione Europea, adesso!
Noi, Cittadini d’Europa e del Mondo, facciamo appello a voi affinché l’Esperanto diventi la 25-a lingua dell’Unione Europea, per un’Europa più democratica e più equa nei confronti di ogni lingua e cultura del Continente. La scelta dell’Esperanto è un passo in avanti nella costruzione dell’Europa. Manca un serio dibattito a livello europeo, l’Europa non deve essere solo una unione economica, ma deve anche essere l’Europa dei Popoli.
NL — Esperanto, officiële taal van de Europese Unie, nu!
Wij, burgers van Europa en van de wereld, roepen u op om van Esperanto de 25ste taal van de Europese Unie te maken, voor een democratischer en rechtvaardiger Europa tegenover elke taal en cultuur van het continent. Esperanto kiezen is een verdere stap in de opbouw van Europa. Er ontbreekt debat op het Europese vlak, Europa moet niet enkel een economische unie zijn, het moet ook het Europa van het volk zijn.
PL — Esperanto językiem urzędowym Unii Europejskiej, teraz!
My, obywatele Europy i świata zwracamy się z petycją o uczynienie esperanta 25. językiem Unii Europejskiej, dla Europy bardziej demokratycznej, ceniącej i respektującej równość kulturową i językową. Wybranie esperanta może być kolejnym istotnym krokiem w konstruowaniu wspólnej Europy.
—
GR — Εσπεράντο, η επίσημη γλώσσα της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης, τώρα!
Türkçe :
https://www.avaaz.org/tr/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
ελληνικά (grec/greka) :
https://www.avaaz.org/el/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
한국어 (coréen/korea) :
https://www.avaaz.org/kr/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
עברית (hébreu/ hebrea) :
https://www.avaaz.org/he/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
日本語 (japonais/japana):
https://www.avaaz.org/jp/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
Pусский (russe/rusa) :
https://www.avaaz.org/ru/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
https://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Esperanto_langue_officielle_de_lUE/
+
1) 中文 (chinois/ĉina)
2) საქართველოს (géorgien/kartvela)
3) नेपाली (népalais/nepala)
4) Қазақ (kazakh/kazaha)
5) македонски (macédonien/makedona)
6) cрпски (serbe/serba)
7) български (bulgare/bulgara)
8) українська (ukrainien/ukraina)
9) Català (catalan/kataluna)
10) Dansk (danois/dana)
11) Gaeilge (irlandais/irlanda)
12) Hrvatski (croate/kroata)
13) Icelandic (islandais/islanda)
14) Latviešu (letton/latva)
15) Lietuvių (lituanien/litova)
16) Magyar (hongrois/hungara)
17) Malti (maltais/malta)
18) Occitan (okcitana)
19) Shqip (albanais/albana)
20) Slovenčina (slovaque/slovaka)
21) Svenska (suédois/sveda)
22) Tiếng Việt (vietnamien/vjetnama)
LOL. Perry Mason, sorryyyyy! Henri Mason, the new Lenin. I knew you were running for the presidency of the Universala Esperanto-Asocio. Good luck! And count on my vote.
Dankon, Alejandro Carlos.
Vi rivelis vian veran vizaĝon :
Nulo !
Merci, Alejandro Carlos.
Vous avez révélé votre vrai visage :
Zéro !
You are very welcome but I am not the one yelling: “Proletarier aller Länder, vereinigt euch!”
Jen kiel Alejandro Carlos malaltigas la debaton!
Lia argumentado por angla multe pli similas al la propagando de Gordon Brown ol miaj skribaĵoj al la doktrino de Lenin aŭ Marx.
Dankon al li ke li montris sian veran vizaĝon kaj sian malaltan pensnivelon.
Voilà comment Alejandro Carlos abaisse le débat !
Son argumentation pour l’anglais ressemble beaucoup plus à la propagande de Gordon Brown que mes écrits à la doctrine de Lénine ou de Marx.
Merci à lui d’avoir montré son vrai visage et la médiocrité de sa pensée.
I agree with certain things in Mr. Brown agenda, not so much with others. How much do agree with Lenin?, actually Marx. But then again, you do not have to agree with their ideology, just use similar principles for the dissemination of yours. Like I said to Leo, I have already said everything I thought was needed. Now it is up to the people to choose, as it is their right. Additional conversation is not going to change the outcome. This experiment of asking people through this dialog or debate or whatever else you want to call is as much a failed experiment as Esperanto. Less that 2100 responses in over a year, with a large portion of those responses given by Esperanto activists does not provide enough data to reach an educated guess regarding the interest, or lack thereof, of the European people on this topic. There is no statistical value in these comments.
Now, I will graciously depart to more interesting and fruitful pastures.
Why should english become the official language of the European union ? It’s a non-sense and a no-democratic purpose ! However you think, english is not easy to learn : phonetics, accent, orthography, and so on ! Many people learned it at school and cannot speak more than a few words ! My english too is bad (but I don’t care !) In Europe, german and french languages are more practiced (more native speakers) More of that, english is now ruling the world globalised trade and it became the language of bankers, traders and so on, all them people keen on speculation ! Do you want this kind of word ? I don’t think Dickens wouldapproove such an evolution.
But in Europe they aremore than 40 languages. The ONLY democratic solution would be to introduce a secondary common language, as you got a secondary phone. Not latin, too much uneasy and out of time. May be esperanto, with its long andrich experience ( try to get information about it, before saying anything about something you don’t know!)
At every one that read my words : I don’t like to write in english, I ‘d rather write in spanish, french , deutsch or esperanto ! Hasta la vista, à bientôt, aus wiedersehen, ĝis revido. Pierre
Kaj mi mi respondas al S-ro Carlos ke li ne pravas. Hodiaù estas pli multe da esperantistoj ol 3 aù 2 milionoj, oni diras ankaù 10 gis 15 milionoj sed ne estas en 120 landoj kiel diras esperantistoj, sed laù ke mi audis diri per iu kiu multe vojagis, li vidis esperantistoj en 170 landoj, kaj esperanto estis instruata en la jaro 2014 en 220 landoj ; kaj kiam oni bone informas kiel mi faras la homojn, estas homoj kies esperanto interesigas ilin. En la aviado, la angla ke vi multe defendas estas vera dangero, pluraj aviadaj ingenieroj plendis ke la angla kaùzas problemojn kaj okazis pluraj akcidentoj kaj cefa kialo de incidentoj car la lingvo estas tiel malfacila ke la pilotoj ne komprenas cion ke oni diras al ili, pluraj personoj bone komprenas tion sed vi ne, kiam mi montras la provon al homoj, ili diras oh ni ne sciis tion, ili ne diras tion al ni, ne ili ne diras, ili volas fari sklavojn de usonanoj. FAA usona trudigis la anglan sed fari provojn kaj sen demandi al pilotoj ne usonaj se ili bone volas ; Usono kaj British Council trudigis la anglan post la milito laù sekreta kunveno por trudigi tion en unua lingvo sen demandi la opiniojn de la aliaj ; nun en Francio, ili trudigas sen demandi la opinion de la Francoj nek de la infanoj ekde patrina gardeno, mi diras al gepatroj ne trudigu la anglan al viaj infanoj, ne uzu la anglan por la komunikado.
Estas la gepatroj ke ili trudigas al infanoj, estas vera honto ! Kaj la politikistoj ankaù, sed gepatroj demandas : oni devas instrui Esperanton ankaù, Kial ne ? La respondo mia estas : Francio estas direktita per stultoj depost pluraj jaroj kaj jaroj kaj tamen la infanoj diras al mi estas Esperanto kiun oni devus lerni en lernejo ne la angla, nek la germana, nek la hispana, estas provita ankaù ke Esperanto estus sekurata en la aviado kaj aliaj. Kaj oni kritikas ion ke oni ne provis kaj oni ne konas, mi kritikas la anglan car mi konas la malavantagojn, la malfacilajojn, kaj la detruon ankaù, detruo de lingvoj kaj kulturoj de la mondo, oni vidas la rezulton en francio, ili ne plu scias la francan, estas tre grava mortigi la lingvojn de la landoj, sed cie estas stultojn kiuj komprenas nenion kaj shafoj kiuj sekvas, tiu politiko estas vera honto ! Mi diris longtempe via politiko estas malbona, necesas shangi, informi la homoj pri Esperanto, la lingvo kiu estus pli ekonomia ol la angla kiu ne mortigas la lingvojn kaj kulturojn, sed la politikistoj iras en la malbona vojo, homoj ankaù kiuj sekvas. Mi skribas Esperante car mi ne konas anglan, tro malfacila. Oni parolas pri Eùropo, kaj vi faras cion en la angla, honto !
Hello Lambert, you seem to have gotten out the wrong side of the bed today. Anyhow, Happy New Year! and Best Wishes!
Good for you and all Esperantists according to you now you and them will have a much better opportunity of finding someone who speak Esperanto. And in so many countries, Wow!
I am sorry but I cannot agree with you. English does not cause accidents, people who did not take the time to learn it correctly cause the accident. That is unfortunate but will happens with any language adopted for communication between the pilots and the Control Tower. Spanish, German, Italian, etc. and let’s not talk about French. Can you imagine pilots trying to talk with the Traffic Controller in French, that will really be a disaster!.
And I think you will have to forgive the Airlines and Airports Administrators for wanting to implement English as the language for communication between them. You have to remember that at the time the majority of airlines and airports were from English speaking countries. It was a wise call, fewer people had to learn a new language. Esperanto was never an option.
I am sorry too. I write to you in English because I do not know French, a lot more difficult than English, including the pronunciation. And Esperanto, whatever I learned 50 years ago is forgotten and I do not have any intention of learning a language that is not useful. I would rather learn Chinese, Japanese or German.
Kion faros la eŭropaj politikistoj se la “Brexit” realiĝos? Restos nur unu “anglalingva” lando, nome Irlando – kie la angla havas tre apartan uzadon pro la fakto ke temas pri nenativa lingvo – en la EU. Eble la ĉeflingvo fariĝos la germana tiam – estus bone ĉar la germana estas pli facile lernebla ol la angla – mi parolas pri fina flueco – komence la germana ŝajnas pli malfacile lernebla sed poste, kiam oni komprenas la sistemojn, ĝi estas kvazaŭ arte farita lingvo kun malpli da malregulaĵoj ol la diversaj anglaj lingvoj.
En alia forumo iu brito kiu loĝas en Nederlando informis min/nin ke ni usonanoj ne parolas la anglan – do eble ne – ne ĝenas min. Sed la eŭropanoj devos tiam elekti modelon de la angla por uzi sen brita partopreno. mmmmm….
It would be a very good idea as many people are speaking English as it is, more than half of the European population (when including UK) is able to use the language. Of course all nationalities should maintain their own language but English should be added to this. All Europeans in this sense should be bilingual allowing them to stay close to their culture but also speak a common language allowing them to grow closer together and increase understanding.
But…are really the UK inhabitants bilingual, even at a level of 50% of them ?
And, why not to have french as a second language which is also spoken by about the same % of Europeans ?
Would’d not be more wiser to speak a neutral language, like Esperanto, more easier, cheaper and efficient for translations than any of them ?
This is very dangerous reasoning, as English is already replacing other languages, e.g. Dutch in university lectures in the Netherlands. English is like a forest fire – it is not possible to say “burn those trees, but not those other trees”. The spread of English is a threat to all other languages. Esperanto would ensure communication far better than English, and would never threaten other languages, as it is 10 times easier than English. Thus it frees up a lot of time to study other languages, to deepen understanding of the mother tongue, or to study other subjects.
People learn a language to the level they consider satisfactory to their needs. The question is that most natives do not speak their own language, after a whole life learning it and practicing it, in a total immersive environment, to the level you want people to be able to reach with English in just a few short years. On the other hand people in most cases have learned English voluntarily, no government compulsion or subsidies. Why do they do it? Because they believe it is going to be useful for whatever purpose they want to learn it. Esperanto may be easier, but most people do not even know it exists and those who do, do not believe it is going to be useful to them so they do not study it. And if you oppose English because it is very difficult it is hypocritical to suggest French, which is not only much more difficult to learn to understand and to pronounce but Frenchmen will not tolerate people speaking their beloved language incorrectly or with an accent.
And Sean, do you really believe what you say? Have you actually thought about it at any length? Given your premise that Esperanto is much more easier than any other language it stand to reason that once it is taught in all schools at all levels people will simple stop using their own language as well, It does not matter what you predict will happen. If you had any experience with migrant you would know that second generation have a high incidence of speaking their native language badly and third generation generally does not speak it at all. The same applies to any language, no matter how difficult, that is adopted as a Universal second language. Once everybody speaks it eventually it will take over. People are practical (and lazy) so once they can do everything in one language they will stop being interested in learning any other. They culture probably will last longer since you can express everything in the new language but eventually it will merge with all other and we will become one people, with one language and one culture. That is inevitable, although it will take a longer time to happen than the adoption of just one language. That will happen regardless thee language adopted French, Chinese English or Esperanto and regardless of the original intention of the adoption or the philosophy behind the language. You can continue to say that is not the Esperanto credo nor its intentions and that it will not happen with Esperanto. You will not have any control over what people will do once everybody speak a common language.
But…are really the UK inhabitants bilingual, even at a level of 50% of them ?
Carlos, yes I believe what I write, and yes, I have thought about it a lot. I spent 6 years writing a Ph.D thesis on language policy in Ireland and Québec. You are correct in saying that nobody can control what people will do when they speak a common language. However, there are as yet no examples of Esperanto replacing any other language. There are, however, more and more examples of English pushing out other languages, such as at universities in more and more European countries.
Good! A thinking Sean! I like this one better. Since you are being reasonable I will try my best to be reasonable too.
So far as I know people in the world still speak their own languages. If you feel the temptation of going back to the colonial days, there is nothing I can say, that was the way things were done back then and everybody did it, starting with the French and ending with the more civilized northern countries, Russia and the Asian countries go without saying. But nowadays nobody is forcing nobody to choose English. That there is an economic pressure and incentive for learning English, yes there is. So people are choosing English on their own volition, for whatever reasons.
Esperanto may be easier to learn than English, and most other languages, but there is not any pressure or incentive, economic or otherwise, to learn it. That is why people do not learn it in mass. And English is, by far, a lot easier than most other languages, even it is not easier than Esperanto.
The Utopia is beautiful, but not very easy to implement, at least in any practical way, unless people cooperate. And compelling people to do so by investing heavily in creating the conditions for massive education by the government will eliminate completely, or in a very large measure, whatever saving accrued from Esperanto being an easier language to learn. Mind my words, there is nothing wrong with Esperanto that disqualifies it as a Universal language, but there is nothing wrong with English either, nor with any of the other major language, French included no matter how horrid the idea.
So we have to turn to practical reasons and there is nothing more reasonable than people reaping benefits as soon as they start speaking some English, however badly they do it. There is nothing like instant gratification to make people move.
I do not mind the pushing for Esperanto as a Universal Language, just the wild claims about what Esperanto can and will do, without any basis whatsoever to justify them. Whatever you claim will happen with English will also happen with Esperanto, because people will be the same and they will continue to behave the same way. Social change does not equate a unique language adoption. Humans have used every language to do and justify the most hideous acts. Esperanto have been excluded simply because it has never been in the position other languages have found themselves in, it has never been the language of people in power in any particular country. Once it is it will be used as badly as any other language has been. And what is worse, people will take Esperanto and change it in ways you cannot even imagine right now, as they have changed every other language, beautiful ideology behind it notwithstanding.
And if you did a thesis in language policy you better than most know they are very difficult, if not impossible, to implement. Case in point Ebonics. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics)
There were University (black) English full tenured professors pushing for Ebonics being accepted as a distinct language, and even taught in schools. And the people speaking it went to the same schools and were taught the same language that every other kid in America was taught. So much for language policy and purity.
Now, I want you to tell me if what I am saying is incorrect. If you or anybody else can guarantee that nothing like that will ever happen if Esperanto is adopted as the Universal language I will invite you or them to state those guarantees in any believable and provable way.
If you really want people to take Esperanto seriously you have to stop badmouthing other languages, just state the qualities of the language and let people decide by themselves if that is what they want.
Nothing is perfect, some things are better than others for some reasons and other things are better for other reasons. There are no absolutes so people have to choose what is best for them.
0>>>Now, I want you to tell me if what I am saying is incorrect<<So people are choosing English on their own volition, for whatever reasons.And English is, by far, a lot easier than most other languagesThe Utopia is beautiful, but not very easy to implementFrench included no matter how horrid the idea.the wild claims about what Esperanto can and will doWhatever you claim will happen with English will also happen with Esperantopeople will take Esperanto and change it in ways you cannot even imagine right nowyou have to stop badmouthing other languagespeople have to choose what is best for them.Frenchmen will not tolerate people speaking their beloved language incorrectly or with an accent.<
Frenchmen are very admirative of foreigners speaking French. Only the English accent is very recognizable.
Speaking English for Frenchmen is quite easy: just speak French with a hot potato in your mouth :-)
[ignore my previous message. Some character combinations were mishandled by this site]
0)—— Now, I want you to tell me if what I am saying is incorrect ——(
1)— So people are choosing English on their own volition, for whatever reasons. —(
I have the impression that you did not get a choice.
2)— And English is, by far, a lot easier than most other languages —(
… they say … But they say a lot. Dutch is a lot easier.
3)— The Utopia is beautiful, but not very easy to implement —(
On the contrary: it’s very easy to implement. When it will be done, people will wonder why it wasn’t done earlier… and they will blame us for doing so little for the promotion of Esperanto.
4)— French included no matter how horrid the idea. —(
Why? For having a grammar?
5)— the wild claims about what Esperanto can and will do —(
For example: it can be used as a help-language between people speaking different languages… Wild claim indeed!
6)— Whatever you claim will happen with English will also happen with Esperanto —(
No: Because we don’t want to, and we’ll take measures so that it doesn’t happen. Otherwise we stop with it!
7)— people will take Esperanto and change it in ways you cannot even imagine right now —(
Then it is not Esperanto any more : may be Esperantido, Esperonto, Boesperanto.
You can’t imagine what people have already tried (and was rejected by the community)
For the evolution of the vocabulary in Esperanto, and to check what was accepted, see http://remush.be/tezauro/PIV.xml
8)— you have to stop badmouthing other languages —(
A savage language will remain wild, even if your mother speaks it. The number of illiterates increases, thanks to English!
9)— people have to choose what is best for them. —(
That’s why we must go on informing them that they have a choice.
10)— Frenchmen will not tolerate people speaking their beloved language incorrectly or with an accent. —(
Frenchmen are very admirative of foreigners speaking French. Only the English accent is very recognizable.
Speaking English for Frenchmen is quite easy: just speak French with a hot potato in your mouth.
Why not Esperanto ? Isn’t there in this world any lack of Esperanto ? Anything else better but Esp° ?
Vi devas komprenis Alejandro Carlos por kompreni kion li skribas. Li naskiĝis en Kubo. Li eskapis al Usono. Lia nova hejmlando estas savo por li. Mi komprenas tion. Li legas ĉiuntage El Nuevo Herold en la hispana, tagĵurnalo de Miami. Li malamas Castro’n. Ankaŭ mi ne tre ŝatas Castro’n sed mi ne devis suferi sub li. Sinjoro Carlos (mi neniam nur skribus ‘Carlos’ ĉar mi estas edukata) identifikiĝas kun la anglosaksonoj de Usono – liaj herooj, liaj savantoj. La fakto ke ili malestimas lin pro la latina praeco ne interesas lin. Vi neniam, sed neniam povos influi lin.
Eble la Castro-istoj iam subtenis Esperanton. Tio jam de la ekeco estas kialo por li malestimi Esperanton. Ke ili, la Castro-istoj nun subtenas la instruon de la usona angla en la lernejoj eble ne atingis lian atenton.
Li anglumaĉas, mi scias. Multaj usonanoj komprenas lin sed en siaj mentoj ili malestimas lin iomete. Li ne konscias pri tio.
Vi perdas tempon en la konversacio kun li. Li NENIAM ŝanĝos ideojn pro la maljunaĝaj spertoj kun la Castro-istoj. Ne temas pri objectiva pritrakto de Esperanto aŭ de objektive pritrakto de la monda politikaro – li estas kontraŭ-Costro-isto punkto, Ĉio kio flaras iomete de Castro-ismo forpelas lin.
Kvasnack, you are so full of it I can smell you from here. That is without saying you have no idea what you are talking about since you do not know me. In every comment I have made herein I have defended the English language, not the American government nor their policies and you do not have any clue either about Cuba or any other Communist country for that matter. And since you are so “educated and polite” how come that the only way you have to oppose my arguments is by trying to belittle me, not the arguments themselves. Something tells me you do it because you really do not have any way of refuting them in any valid way and resort to being offensive in a not too veiled way as a way to undermine an argument you cannot refute otherwise.
What can you expect from an English teacher who is constantly telling his students they will never learn the language he is teaching them, they need to succeed and that they are striving so strenuously to learn. If you do not believe they will learn, or rather that you cannot teach them, you should be honest with yourself and with them and quit doing it, instead of taking advantage of their precarious situation and shamelessly benefit from it, and offend them in the process. Be honest with yourself and with them, teach them Esperanto instead, let´s see if you can make a living out of it. You claim to have a doctorate in English, but I think you only perform at the BS level.
And Carlos or Alejandro is perfectly OK with me without any pomposity or affectation. I am just a simple human being. Anything else is just a way of hiding your own flaws. How does it feel to know so many languages and be wrong and incapable of making sense in all of them?
Ĉar ni parolas pri Eŭropo, jen gazetara novaĵo pri lingva politiko tie: http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/38387
Yes. It would make sense to have a common language between all the countries of EU. Certainly it would bring people from different nations and countries closer and would cut costs.
20 years ago I went to Canary islands for a holiday. When I got an eye infection I went to a clinic with my parents. I spoke English and French. The doctor spoke only Spanish. It was an awkward situation and thankfully there was nothing serious. English, French and Spanish are popular languages. However we need to use a common language in order to communicate. I choose English as it is already the most popular language.
“You refuse though, you who are not the chosen ones. It seems to me that you are blinding yourselves to the truth. People seem less intelligent than they really are when they talk to someone in that person’s mother language. I got that idea from Claude Piron, an Esperantist, and working abroad I have seen it time after time. Esperanto was created to be a language that one can learn quickly but more importantly, it was created to be flexible so that all people can use it without sounding foreign and without sounding stupid. That is not the case with English. Unless you live for years in an English-speaking country, you will never master the unwritten rules, the countless expressions, and the subtle nuances of the language.”
Den Drown : http://www.sat-amikaro.org/article600.html
FR
“Pourtant, vous refusez cela, vous, les allophones. Je pense que vous vous aveuglez face à la vérité. Les hommes semblent moins intelligents que ce qu’ils sont réellement lorsqu’ils parlent à une personne dans sa langue maternelle. Claude Piron, un espérantiste, me l’a fait remarquer et je le constate d’une fois à l’autre quand je travaille à l’étranger. L’espéranto a été créé pour être rapidement appris, et — plus important — pour être souple afin que chacun puisse l’utiliser sans paraître étranger, sans paraître stupide. L’anglais, pas du tout ! Mis à part si vous avez résidé plusieurs années dans un pays anglophone, vous ne maîtriserez jamais ses règles décrites, l’énorme quantité d’expressions et les nuances subtiles de la langue.”
EO
“Tamen vi rifuzas, vi la alilingvuloj. Mi opinias ke vi blindiĝas al la vero. Homoj ŝajnas malpli inteligentaj ol ili vere estas kiam ili parolas kun persono per ties gepatra lingvo. Claŭde Piron, esperantisto, donis al mi tiun ideon, kaj mi fojon post fojo vidas ĝin kiam mi laboras eksterlande. Esperanto estas kreita por esti rapide lernebla kaj plej-grave fleksebla tiel kiel ĉiuj povas uzi ĝin sen ŝajni fremda, sen ŝajni stulta. La angla ne ! Krom per loĝi dum pluraj jaroj en angla-parolanta lando, vi neniam majstros la nepriskribitajn regulojn, la amason da esprimoj, kaj la subtilajn nuancojn de la lingvo. “
Why any time a person post a comment pro-English one, or several of you (Esperantists) have to crawl out of the hole you usually hide under and try to batter him or her into accepting that Esperanto is a better language? It is not according to the opinion of more people than the total number of Esperanto speakers. In a democratic vote you lose. You are the minority.
Don’t they have the right to have an opinion different than yours without being attacked just for stating it? You also have the right to state yours but you are not stating an opinion you are trying to make his or her change theirs and adopt whatever it is you propose. That is not very democratic.
And what is the purpose of responding in several languages if the opinion was stated in English? Are you trying to show off? Yes. And at the same time you are trying to imply that because you speak more than one language you know better. I do not believe that is the case. In my opinion it is just a case of bad manners. Just imagine you ask a question to a person and then that person respond to you the same answer in several languages. What would you think of that person?
You (Esperantists) have said every thing there is in favor of Esperanto (several times ad nauseam) then you invented a few more. I think (in my humble opinion) that it is high time that the lot of you stop bothering people here and let them state whatever it is that they think about the matter (without attacking them). I mean, it is reasonable to infer that they have read at least a few of the opinions herein put forward. They just state their opinion without saying anybody in here was wrong.
LET THEM BE!
ohfergodsake, get over thyself, Alejo!
1. As for Esperantists crawling out of their hole, does thee not do the very same thing in reverse?? any time anything postive about Esperanto is posted, there thee is poopooing it.
2. having someone disagree with you on an opinion IS NOT depriving you of your right to have and express an opinion……and just like them, ESPERANTISTS also have the RIGHT to express their opinions as well. And, no, in fact they do NOT have the “right” to have a differing opinion WITHOUT BEING ATTACKED for it. It’s called reciprocation or in the colloquial, a two-way street.
3. Multilanguage answers: I don’t suppose thee has considered that MAYBE a person may be able to understand written English but not to be able to express themselves satisfactorally in English? Most of the French postings here I have been able to understand at least enough to get what is being said, but there is no way I’d be able to respond in French.
1. Not really Dmitri, only when a certain group of people come out and try to bully those who advocate English. There are many pro-Esperanto comments to which I have not responded and several others in which I have stated I have nothing against Esperanto per se. Only to those that say we (English advocates) are crazy for advocating English over Chinese or Spanish (or any other language for that matter) because they have more native speakers. English is the second most spoken language (the first one out of China) in the World. English is the most spoken language as a second language. English is presently the language most people are studying as a second language. There are over 400 million native speakers and over a billion of worldwide speakers (good and bad). Esperanto is spoken by less than three million people (a very optimistic number, some believe that the real number is less than a million, and most of them do not do that very well either, but that is irrelevant, isn’t it? ) including a handful of so called “native Esperanto speakers.” English is everywhere, economics, finance, science, social, culture, communications, etc. Where is Esperanto? N O W H E R E.
2. No it is not when they just express their differing opinion, but it is when the try to batter you into submission. And yes they have a right to have an opinion without being attacked. Nobody is supposed to be attacked for having an opinion. That does not deprive you or any other person of having differing opinions, also with the right of not being attacked for having them. But if they come out I reciprocate. ;-(
3. I understand your point but it is not applicable here. In this particular instance the interlocutor is fluent in English, he just chooses to respond in another language in the hope, I believe, that it will bother me (it does not) and at the same time it gets the issue out of the debate.
I understand that there are people that do not speak English, and some will use that fact to claim they are being left outside the discussion. They are not. They are welcome to carry a similar debate in their respective languages. People trying to converse and reach agreements speaking different languages have never gotten anywhere.
I never participate in debates being carried out in Finnish, no matter what the subject. I do not speak Finnish.
So now, who does logic and reason carry on their shoulders?
Voici, pour les personnes qui connaissent le français, un article paru ce matin dans “Le Figaro” : “Le Japon ne parvient désespérément pas à se mettre à l’anglais” —
http://www.lefigaro.fr/conjoncture/2016/02/25/20002-20160225ARTFIG00007-le-japon-ne-parvient-desesperement-pas-a-se-mettre-a-l-anglais.php
L’anglais ne résout pas de problèmes, il en crée.
La démocratie, selon Alejandro Carlos, c’est celle d’un dictateur qui réduit des autres candidats ou adversaires éventuels au silence, soit par l’intimidation, soit par des pressions, soit par des menaces et même par l’élimination physique. Pour lui, le candidat unique est… l’anglais, même pas l’espagnol qui est la pourtant seconde langue la plus parlée au monde comme langue maternelle après le mandarin. C’est curieux que quelqu’un qui a fui le castrisme agit de la même façon contre l’espéranto… N’est-ce pas ?
eo: Jes, sinjoro Masson. Plia diktatora kakterizaĵo estas malpermesi la uzon de alia lingvo. Ĉi tie vi uzas vian propran lingvon, tio ĝenegas diktatorecajn personojn.
nl: Ja, mijnheer Masson. Een verder dictatoriaal kenmerk is het gebruik verbieden van een andere taal. Hier gebruikt u uw eigen taal, en dat is erg storend voor dictatoriale personen.
As I said, just bad manner. The original comment was in English, you attacked him in English, I interceded in English and now you change the language to French. You have no reason to believe that he or I speak French. So why the change? It is not a very intelligent way of communicating, is it? Or conducting to reaching agreements, or is it? That shows your true intentions of really debating the point in a fair way.
And you do not know me well enough to go putting words in my mouth or saying what I think or believe just to make look like a bad person because I do not agree with you. That is more of a reflection on you and your lack of manners. Generally used when a lack of arguments is at hand. Ok Perry, next case!
Children Suffer From English Fatigue Syndrome
http://globalpulse.net/2006/06/children_suffer/
Bedaŭrinde la ligilo ne funkcias.
Jes, la ligilo funkcias, sed necesas iom da pacienco. Se vi ne sukcesas, provu per serĉo per la titolo “Children Suffer From English Fatigue Syndrome”.
Mi ne povas elteni plu; ĉio ĉi entute ridindas!
I can’t take it anymore; all this is just ridiculous!
And by “all” I mostly mean Robb and Alejandro. Both accuse the other of bad manners, and spend their time targeting things that are not the argument; neither “Alejandro supports English because he was traumatized by Fidel Castro” nor “Robb hates English because he was traumatized by his school teacher” is a real argument. That’s what we call a genetic fallacy; attacking the real or supposed origin of an argument instead of the argument itself.
Robb continually criticizes Alejandro’s mistakes in English, while himself making more mistakes in Esperanto. He makes a big deal of forms of address, and uses them as a basis for deprecating Alejandro’s education while proclaiming himself “bone edukita”. In actuality, that tactic just makes him look silly and childish.
Alejandro accuses others of trying to bully him out of the debate, when he’s the one who said three times that he is bowing out and will not be coming back. He complains of others putting words in his mouth and assigning motives to him, while himself doing the same thing (why do you believe what’s-his-name comments in multiple languages just to bother you? Certainly there are many more viable reasons).
Now, to get to the actual arguments in the Esperantist vs. English-ist subdebate, they essentially boil down as follows: the English-ist says “Why would we burden the world with a language that relatively few people speak, when we have a language which is spoken by bazillions (sorry, I forget the actual number) of people in every country of the world? Who cares which is a ‘better language’ whatever that even means?”. The Esperantist says, “Why should we burden the world with a difficult, cumbersome, culturally bound language, when we have a far easier, more consistent, fairer, more flexible, and more expressive one? Who cares how many speakers it currently has?” When you look at it this way, you see that the two sides have very different perspectives and priorities. One seeks to make the best of what is, the other looks past what is to strive for what should be. One wants “benefits in my lifetime”, the other wants a perceived greater benefit for the long term. Each side sees his own position as objectively more right than the other. So you see, we can try to argue that Esperanto is better, or that English has more speakers, but it won’t do any good because the other side doesn’t care. We can try to argue that English doesn’t have as many actually proficient speakers as one is led to believe, or that Esperanto isn’t as wonderful as they say it is. That still won’t do any good because either the other side will say “it does/is too!” or they’ll say “it’s still more widely used/better than…!”. That’s why we can argue until we’re blue in the face, and we just keep going in circles and saying the same things over and over, with increasing frustration. I’m not trying to stifle discussion, I just want us to understand each other better. I also admit that, though I have striven to present the matter fairly to the best of my ability, I have my own bias, and sincerely apologize for any misrepresentations; I assure you they were unintentional.
Thank you Christa! I could not have put it better myself. And you are right, I have said in several occasions that I was bowing out but it simple bothers me that any time anybody say anything pro-English this group comes out and start battering them. You are also right in that we are not going to agree. But in my defense, I have stated in more than one occasion that no matter what we say here it is not going to influence the outcome one way or other, that it will be the people who will ultimately choose which language is going to come on top. Be it English, Esperanto or Chinese.
EO + FR
Kurioza Eŭropo, kies devizo estas en la latina “In varietate concordia ” (Konkordo en diverseco) sed : “Unie dans la diversité” en la franca, t.e. Unuiĝinta en diverseco — mi fakte pli emus kredi ke, precipe depost la Traktato de Lisbono, kaj la malrespekto de la rezultato de referencumoj, temas pri unuigita, t.e. per trudo, kaj krome ke diverseco cedas lokon al maldiverseco.
Ni memoru,ekzemple, pri trudo de la angla al la ŝtatoj de orienta Eŭropo kiuj estis devigataj subtemi al la Komisiono dosieron de kandidatiĝo al membriĝo al EU nur en la angla.
Do temas pri tute hipokrita devizo. Konstante malkreskas la loko de naciaj kaj regionaj lingvoj en radio kaj tevido, en amasinformiloj, en kanzono kaj kino. Ĉu tio estas diverseco ?
Pro tio ni devas debati en ĉiuj lingvoj de EU ĉe Debating Europe kaj montri, pruvi ke ekzistas alternativo al nacia hegemonia lingvo, al elemento de strategio de superego de la mondo.
—
FR
Curieuse Europe, dont la devise est du latin “In varietate concordia” (Concorde dans la diversité), mais “Unie dans diversité” en français — En fait, j’aurais tendance à croire que, surtout depuis le traité de Lisbonne, et la violation des résultats de référendums, il s’agit d’unification, c’est-à-dire par la contrainte; et, en plus, cette diversité cède la place à une diversité de plus en plus réduite.
Rappelons-nous, par exemple, de l’imposition de l’anglais aux Etats de l’Europe de l’Est qui ont été forcés de soumettre la Commission le dossier de demande à l’adhésion à l’UE en anglais seulement.
C’est donc un slogan complètement hypocrite. La place des langues nationales et régionales à la radio et à la télévision, dans les médias, dans la chanson et le cinéma se réduit constamment. Est-ce cela, la diversité ?
Par conséquent, nous devons débattre dans toutes les langues de l’UE sur Debating Europe et montrer, prouver qu’il existe une alternative à la langue hégémonique nationale, à un élément d’une stratégie de domination du monde.
Wegen der verletzenden und beleidigenden Angriffe in der Mehrzahl auf meine Person bezogen, hat die Teilnehmerin mit dem nom de plume Christa H. gezeigt, wie man mit Gänsefüßchen nach feinster englischer Art ein Gespräch dermaßen entarten kann, dass sich Andere erschrocken zurückziehen. Ich hatte in letzter Zeit sowieso nichts mehr geschrieben aber nachdem diese Person mich derart zu verunglimpfen vesucht hat, ziehe mich lieber zurück. Sie hat meinen Tag vergiftet und meine Laune vermiest. Ihr Mangel an Takt und insbesondere ihr auf mich bezogener Unmut befremden mich. Danke! Wenn dies der Führungsstil der Englischsprachigen ist, dann kann ich dem Rest-Europa nur viel Glück wünschen. Hoffenlich gelingt der Brexit und damit auch die Vorherrschaft der englischen Sitten.
Mi ne partoprenos la diskuton, ĉar jam estas tro multe da komentoj.
Mi nur volas diri ke: Esperanto tre bone funkcias kaj estas uzata lingvo, kaj EU multe profitus se ĝi adoptus ĝin.
Kore,
Jacob
PS Eblas traduki per https://translate.google.com/#eo/fr/
Longa Viva Esperanto!
Esperanto is a joke language that language geeks choose to speak to get their kicks in their language geek clubs even though most of the times they know at least 3 languages and could switch to a real language at any time. Some people don’t get it’s for fun only. It will never be official anywhere deal with it. Learn English, Spanish, Mandarin if you language geek club isn’t your thing.
Your comment says more about you than about Esperanto. As you have no real arguments, you resort to insult. You clearly know little about Esperanto, and take your prejudices for fact. Unfortunately your attitude is widespread. I speak eight languages fluently, and have met more intelligent people in the Esperanto speaking community than in most of the others. Deal with it!
.
Not ‘should’, it will be the only language of the EU to enforce the dogma of ‘ever closer union’.
Yes of course, no one wants to learn croissant , let’s be serious, it’s not a famous language! Stop trying to make french happen! Just because they speak it in Belgium doesn’t mean it should be spoken everywhere
given the fact that the technique thrive, it’s only a matter of time before having a small earpiece speaking us live in whatever language we want to hear and no matter what language the speaker uses and that language we want will be selected by using either the smartphone or the smartwatch, thus making a nonsense learning foreign languages…
A stupid idea.
No
Like russian in USSR?
We should wait for June 23rd before answering this question
no
.
Or the new EU language could be Turkish..
https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/make-turkish-an-official-eu-language-cyprus-tells-eu/
Because, GB wants to leave ???
No! It should be German.
No way….but the official language in the e.u. is Money……
There are at least 20 officil languges of the EU! This is rather an out of line question. If any should, it ought to be German. ;-)
Iant french also official?
Stop kidding yourselves. It is and has been for a long time
And that is one reason the EU is in an unholy mess – the absolute unfairness of favoring English over all other languages. You either believe in non-discrimination or you don’t. The use of English will always discriminate in favour of native English speakers.
Off course…English. No doubt about that.
I propose mandarin.
No!
i thought it’s “unity in diversity”. where’s the “diversity” in having English as the official EU language?!
International English. Not “only” but primary.
Hope we are not in EU. So it will not matter to us. ..
Yes.
Não😠😠
Nope. In order to communicate efficiently, especially in politics and high level meetings, we would all need to be highly proficient in English, which clearly is impossible. Moreover, British people would have a huge advantage compared to the rest of the Europeans. I have been studying English for almost 20 years, now; languages are my passion and will be my job. Still, I will always feel that gap between non-native speakers such as myself, and native speakers.
Nu!
England themselves they don’t want to be part of it..
I HAVE AN IDEA, LET’S MAKE ALL THE LANGUAGES THE EU OFFICIAL LANGUAGES! fuckin BABILONIA! The official languages of the EU should be English, Italian, Spanish and French…
Should spaghetti be the only official food in Italy? Silly question…
One word:YES
No, it should not. they are even planning to leave the Eu! ahahaha! :-) why should English be the only official language? What about the others? aren’t they as worthy as English?
What is EU????????
Espanol!
Why? Give us one honest to goodness reason for this concept! Business interests? And that is it, right? I thought so…
Oh, and by the way, let us all wear the same color skirt, the same color shirt, the same font in all documents, the same size staples…
Are politicians running out of ideas to stay busy?
I have a long list of things they can get busy on!
.
The goal of the EU is to become the US of E ruled from Berlin & will have one language to go with its one flag, one parliament, one border, one president, etc,etc..
The fact people want to keep their own is irrelevant.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/22/german-president-pleads-britain-stay-eu
Why?
Give us one honest to goodness reason for this concept! Business interests? And that is it, right? I thought so…
Oh, and by the way, let us all wear the same color skirt, the same color shirt, the same font in all documents, the same size staples…
Are politicians running out of ideas to stay busy?
I have a long list of things they can get busy on!
What if the official language is a language that not all Europeans speak? Like French for example? English is spoken by the majority of Europeans, and it would be fair to have it as an official language.
Personally, as a Maltese, I speak Maltese, English, and Italian, but I know that when I travel, English in the universal language. French is not a universal language, even if French people want it to be that way. If you are going to include another officially recognized language, it has to be spoken by the majority of the citicens. I think there s also the argument of value. What does Maltese language have less than French, Italian or German for instance? It would not be fair for the EU to value some of its languages more than others. Maltese, even if spoken by just around million people from all over the world, is still as european as the other Eu languages. Same goes to all languages in Europe
You are right – Maltese should be equal to French or German, or even English. The only way to value all European languages equally is to use a neutral language, like Esperanto.
Indeed they are Sean. It is fact that NOT everybody speaks English. It is also a fact that NOBODY speaks Esperanto. If imitation is the best form of flattery, envy is the worst.
Maltese! That would be nice! I Vote for Maltese it makes for a level playing field and an equal start for almost all Europeans.
(I’m Dutch so…whatever as long as i can stop gargling. ;-)
I think should be. English is default language on the earth. everybody speaks English. not Deutsch, not Italian, Finnish or something else. default language is english.
The majority of the human race does not speak English. Facts are stubborn things. You can repeat “Everybody speaks English” as often as you like, but this will not made it true.
Yes
Stupid question sorry! The answer is obviously no!
Did you noticed that everybody is discussing in English?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_English_words_by_country_or_language_of_origin
Português, caras de cu :D
Whether we want it or not (i think yes though), it is inevitable for so many obvious reasons. Now I speak 7 european languages and love all of our languages and respect our diversity, but lets be honest: English is the only realistic language we can use in common, and it is where we are heading. I think it is arrogant for others to claim that spanish, italian etc. Should also be as commonly used as they really arent up to that level. Then we might as well use Polish but I would like to see Italians or French start learning a slavic language, so drop the arrogance and lets use what everybody already uses. Besides, we all speak English here, and we wouldnt be able to include this many citizens in a debate if it were in any other european language. Besides, why should we value any language more than another, except for English because it is a truly global language.
Why ignore Esperanto, which 10 times easier than English. English only, which is what this debate is about, is unfair!
We want Latin as official language.
Si, Latin was the language that other time we had a European empire, Rome. It worked then, guess it would now as well.
A sério?
Yes I agree English should be the only official language in EU, but what about if England leave the EU ?
Good old debating Europe stirring up trouble again,, do none of you have a weekend off, Im off to lie down in the garden..
Diversity and our mutual respect for each others culture and tongue is fundamental for the existence of the EU today. It is undeniable that English is the most spoken language in the EU but that doesn’t mean that everyone speaks English, there is a significant part of our countries population that cherish their native tongue to the level they would be offended that its not an official language of the confederation their country is part of. That may lead to the destabilization of the EU and eventually to its peril. The fact that most comments are in English is not that strong if you think about it, because we are debating on whether English should be the only official language of the EU. There are lots of countries in which more than 50% of the population does not speak English at all or speaks it on a beginners level. Of course, they wont be commenting here ;) And if our goal is to speak a language that boost our economy and will give us the chance to speak with a great part of the human population of the earth, well let’s learn Chinese.
If the EU looses its pro-diversity policy the whole organization will reach its end for sure.
Not that strong of an argument *
That would be funny if it happens just as the UK is leaving
Here we go, arrogant as ever
About time that English is the the second language at the very least. I lived in Germany for 7 years my mother tongue is German but I lived in South Africa for many years went to school there so it’s equally correct to say English is also my mother tongue. I found it appalling that hardly ANY Germany could even converse in even the most basic form of English. Sorry not acceptable in 2016.
How many countries in Europe have English as official language? Only Ireland, Malta … and UK if they remain. This is a silly question.
It would have been a provocation, but a smarter question to ask “Should German be the only official language in EU?”
We should wait for the EU referendum.
It is the most commonly uses second language in europe and the world. Let’s keep it unofficial, Just in case of a Brexit
Unity through diversity.
Yes of course
No
Of course not!
no
Yes
“Europe” is a Greek word.So why not Greek language??
Why must be everything official in this fucked up EU ? No thanks every country should keep their own language
Having 28 official languages in so Multicultural Europe with 60+ regional languages is already quite bad political compromise. Working with 28 official languages is nonsense. Need to reduce. But whatever number between 28 and 1 is insulting. No one is able to make such choice. So the only option is to have 1.
Just don’t ask any more stupid questions and you won’t be told any lies you moron Euroidiots. What do you propose French or German so that tje monopoly will be complete? I look forward to the day when you won’t ask any more questions because the filthy EU would have disintegrated
_español
NO
No.. In that case we will be losing a part of each countries’ culture
.
Istanbul today, Paris, Berlin, Madrid tomorrow ?
End Schengen. before its to late.
http://www.dw.com/en/suicide-attack-rocks-istanbul-high-street/a-19128639
NOOO
Again this stupidity? NO, IT SHOULD NOT. The EU shouldn’t even exist. It is a wortheless institution. A mim não me obrigarão a falar língua nenhuma além da minha. Fala o que quero com quem eu quero!
never ever
No. “United in Diversity” is our motto.
Não. Cada país da EU é independente
Of course not.
No
Absolutely no
ABSOLUTELY NOT-AND I AM AN ENGLISH TEACHER!!!ALL OTHER LANGUAGES ARE ALREADY MARGINALISED ENOUGH!!!
Nej Tak, Nu multumesc, No thanks. is that enough?
never ever, that would make Europe culturally very poor…
The idea of Europe is to live together and be able to keep our identity and culture with respect and love. Only one official language would discriminate many people and it is completely against EU values if we do so.
What another stupid question! !
No! Esperanto estas la vojo.
Esperanto is the way.
Ridiculous, stupid, academic grown bullshit
Absolutely not.
German, because they cannot speak another language :)
No.Every country has it’s own language and it’s fine.If it was to happen that it should be with the Greek and Italian language.
Maybe as a second language so there is a common language to communicate with EU-wide. The EU is different from the US. Do not model the EU on that massacre and colonisation. EU folk are the natives in their own country and nobody can or should take that away. Just adapt, compromise and improve on what is already there.
Are United Kingdom and Ireland the only countries inside the European Union? No, then English should not be the only official language.
Definitely NOT . The only reason other countries have to converse in English , is because the British are too lazy , incompetent and arrogant , to learn other languages .When America declared independence in 1776 , there was a vote on which would be their national language .English won by one vote over French . If it was the other way round , Brits would today be speaking French , with difficulty of course .
How if English people do not´t want to be part of the Europe ??????
YES
Definitely yes – even the negative comments here are a prove of that. No matter do we like English or not, this is the language we use in order to understand and be understood. It is the language we do all speak, beside our respective native languages and as such it is o e of the main things that keep us together.
Like it or not, it is already a fact. And there is no coming back.
English? If it has to be one language (an idea I don’t favor btw), then it should be German, since it’s the biggest group of native speakers and the British do everything to undermine the EU.
Hennas, your comment implies narrow mindedness. There is a world outside the union too, kindly lookup which is the biggest economy of the world and you will realize why English is the most pragmatic choice. And UK is not part of the our country already . English is much more than Britain only
Ne!
Yes. English is understood by most MEPs. If they can’t speak and understand English, they are not fit to have the job in the first place. It will also cut on the translation costs.
Don’t be silly!
With the UK in or out ?
Nope.
Apsolutely not!
What will it matter when we have computers that instantly translate? Or don’t they have those in Europe yet?
If 40 years ago you had stablished ESPERANTO as the second oficial lenguage for every EU country now YOU will not spend our money in translators or making silly questions.
Absolutely. Imagine speaking barbarian languages like effing german,
.
If everyone in the EU understands English why go to the trouble & vast expense of reproducing everything in 20 other languages ?
The EU plan is to standardise everything to create a single ‘European identity’ so English will be the only language of the EU, that’s if the EU survives Turkey joining it of course.
When Brexit maybe europeans should start speaking french? https://euromeblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/23/when-britain-liked-europe-and-europe-liked-britain/
Although I speak English, French, Spanish and Dutch, if Britain leaves Europe I think the official language of the EU should be French. Look at: https://euromeblog.wordpress.com
Of course not! It should be arabic.
A United Nations commission composed by the best linguists must create a new and neutral world language.
With an eminent Brexit?! No way!
Yes. Like English is the official language in USA, Canada and Australia.
It ALREADY IS.
look at these comments, and any international chat.
Please travel around Europe and you will see that it is actually not :(
Βεβαίως.
Claro que não!!
How many times will this question be asked? La réponse est toujours non!
Ofcourse NOT!
We’re an “Union” of Nations and Peoples with proud histories and cultures. Not the United States where others joined an already instituted culture of British origin…
No !!!
Let’s have two or three official languages including a Slavic one. Russian is the best candidate. You can communicate with around 200 000 people and for 400 000 Slavs it would be a unifying language.
$70 Mio for a more in depth look to your quest :D
No. Easy awnser.
This is a question to create separations among People.
NO!
YES. Of course, what other language???
Esperanto of course! I know nobody who speaks both English and Esperanto and who prefers English. And I am a native English speaker.
No, The language official will be the PORTUGUESE
Ελληνικά – ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ ¡
Why not? English is the most important second language in the world and almost everybody speaks it. So it’s natural to define english as primary language
no , but everybody should be able to talk in english
or german … or spanish .. or portuguese ….
Esperanto !!!
Espranto ? Or a new arteficial languge ?
Absolutely yes ! The alternative is one new European language with mix from every member in EU.
Esperanto has existed for 129 years, and is a perfect solution, just and fair to everybody.
If EU act as a real and democratic new union of peoples, should have a common language: English (but respecting plurality of national languages: French, German, Dutch, Catalan, Gaelic, etc) But, by the momet is acting like a corporation of private interests and bureaucracy, then is absolutly indiferent the language used by.
Latin should
Absolutely Nein.
Well..untill now I beleive all europeans speak english as 2nd language. So that is the answer!
Νο, Europeans are separate nations with language and culture… and should stay that way.
Plato solved this. The answer is no.
Well, we travel around Europe we use English to talk to each other so I guess it will happen naturally. Time will tell!
Ní, No, Nunca.
Ne.
think it never !
I am glad that I am able to write this today, a year back, I had no luck, no job and no money, even my husband left me with my son in that bizarre situation making it more worst for me to survive.
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Do you want to know a funny thing? If Brexit eventually takes place, English will be no longer an official EU language. The other two English-speaking countries (Ireland and Malta) insisted to use a different idiom as its official European language under the Treaties (Gaelic and Maltese, respectively).
no, i think we need diversity in the world. we have the same issue in the US, but i think knowing more than one language gives you a different perspective and way of thinking, not to mention more brain connections if you want to get technical and scientific. we need to honor and value all languages not just one otherwise we run the risk of becoming close minded not to mention it robs us of learning and limits us…
NO … but everyone must know how to write and speak English!!!!
Elementary, Watson!
Yes! And Amen to that!
well… it’s going to be Arabic
Maintenant avec la sortie prochaine du RU de l’UE nous serons libre d’abolir de l’Europe cette langue pauvre
100%, it makes total sense to have a common language which everyone speaks and understands. That literally removes hundreds of barriers! English is the universal language, it has an easy grammar compared to German, French or Spanish. Let’s pass a law!
Not at all
Learning English as a foreign language should be made mandatory for all students in the European Union. I also believe English should be made official in every EU state in addition to national languages. The EU needs an official language. This could be Latin or German, but English is simply in the best position to become one. Learning languages is great, preserving languages is also a nice endeavor. And yet language, first and foremost, is a means for people to communicate. The more of us can speak a common language and do our business in it the better.
If you’re going to just arbitrarily pick a language to make mandatory across the EU and make “official” in every EU state (something which every state would have to do separately), then why does it HAVE to be English? Why not German or French? Or dare I say it, Esperanto??
English is fine, as long as you have no problem with unfairness and injustice. For linguistic justice, it has to be Esperanto – no unearned and lifelong privileges for anybody.
Remember that there are 3 other countries in the EU whose languages are global i..e France, Portugal and Spain, so why should they have to have English imposed on them as official? An absurd idea!
Endrus: Making it mandatory would be counter productive since people do not like imposed things. I would rather make it universally available in all schools starting in elementary level, together with other languages which are important in the EU, Spanish, German and French. The official status, if granted, shall be enough to push the language into a more generalized usage, since if you want to work in government you will need to be fluent in the language. And many, if not all, big companies will probably also required it in many positions of importance.
But then again, that is exactly what many Esperantists are proposing for Esperanto. Make Esperanto MANDATORY in all level of education and then there will be equality. Which in my opinion is just rubbish.
Dmitri: It DOES NOT HAVE to be English. It should be the language that will bring the greater benefit to the Union. Of all the languages that could be considered, English offers the greater benefits. It is easier to learn that any of the others (German, French and Spanish), it is the most spoken as a second language in the EU and in the rest of the World, it is the most widely used for Science, Finance, Economy, etc. and it is the “Official” or main language in the largest number of countries in the World. I think that makes it a very important language and one that should be seriously considered for officialdom in the EU.
Sean: Like always, political hogwash. English is just a language. Unfairness and injustice have been present in human history since the beginning, in all languages. Esperanto have never been used by the power elite so it have never been in a position of being used for injustice and unfairness, just give it a chance and you shall see how much unfairness and injustice can be carried out in Esperanto. Besides, it is spoken by a very little number of people in the whole World (and not very well in most cases, and that is the opinion of very important people within the Esperanto Movement, not mine).
Felipe: The official status of a language is just a matter of convenience and economy. That is why Spanish is the official Language of Spain and many other countries were several languages and dialects are spoken. I wonder, what would happen if all the languages of Spain are made official throughout the country? Making English the official language is just a matter of convenience and economy, just like it is in Spain with Spanish and in many other countries with their respective languages. Imagine what would happen if for example India make its almost 500 language official or China makes its almost 300 languages official.
BREXIT:should we then learn another language instead of English?
I don’t speak about imperialist leaders who want that English must be the “ONLY OFFICIAL” language in E.U.(European Union). The immediate result would be the end of E.U.
Many people say that the second language in Europe must be ONLY English. But the imperial language is not appropriate to the project of more democratic. E.U. And the language of E.U can’t be neocolonial language of big nations outside of E.U. with the Brexit.
For the future of E.U, we must consider the reality.
Each of the 25 national languages is second for many people
The common second language in E.U. must be:
1-international by construction and destination, 2-fair,
3-very easy to learn, 4-spoken by several millions of people
5- a springboard for the learning of other languages
Only Esperanto has all these qualities. The learning can be encouraged in the schools. Teach yourself with Lernu.net
Brexit (Brita eliro): Chu ni devus tiam lerni alian lingvon anstataŭ la anglan?
Mi ne parolas pri imperiismaj gvidantoj kiuj volas ke la angla estu la “NUR OFICIALA” lingvo en E.U .. La tuja rezulto estus la fino de E.U.
Multaj homoj en Eŭropo diras ke la dua lingvo en Eŭropo devas esti NUR la angla. Sed la imperia lingvo ne taŭgas por la projekto de pli demokratia E.U. Kaj la lingvo de E. U povas esti nov kolonia lingvo de grandaj nacioj ekstere de U.E. kun la Brexit.
Por la estonteco de U.E., ni devas konsideri la realon. Ĉiu el la 25 naciaj lingvoj estas dua por multaj homoj
La komuna dua lingvo en E.U. devas esti:
1-internacia de konstruo kaj destino, 2-justa,
3-facile lernebla, 4-parolita de pluraj milionoj de personoj
5-esti saltotabulo por la lernado de aliaj lingvoj.
Nur Esperanto havas ĉiujn tiujn kvalitojn. La lernado povas esti subtenata en la lernejoj. Por la autodidaktoj Lernu.net.estas bona ilo.
not a fucking chance that could happen otários https://medium.com/@tynuk/the-english-of-our-lives-5da719f3c118#.hdwylaarc
It’s only logical
Yes.
No!
ебете си майката.
there’s no ned for vulgarity, Georgi.
La sukran-Masha danki
pojebało was
Ne, la angla lingvo ne povas esti la nura europa lingvo.
Why not?☺
Of course not. French and German should be official as well. And maybe Dutch and Italian, since they are founders. Any Slavic language?
A positive British commitment to staying in the EU might be a start …
Whether we like it or not, English is already the official “business” language of the EU28, if not the world – go to any international trade show and you can see for yourself.
Most of the internet is written in English (55%), followed by Russian (5.9%), followed by German (5.8%). What’s the point of writing a website in German to attract international business when most of the global internet users are English speaking (26%), followed by Chinese (21%) and followed by Spanish (8%).
If you choose never to work or live outside of your homeland, English is of no use to you.
English should not be the only official language of the EU but it should be the only official “business” language of the EU28.
It is time for Brussels to acknowledge this so the EU28 business community can get some official direction. It is too late for any other language to become the official business language.
No, see, the EU just needs to strap on a pair and tell the world, “Look, we’re getting sick and tired of spending 330 MILLION on something as unnecessary as translation. Therefore we are adopting Esperanto as our international, intercultural medium of communication, so if you want to do business with us and you don’t speak any of our official national languages, then you have to do it in Esperanto.” I guarantee, Esperanto would become the “official” business language that replaces English on a quasi-global scale.
Dmitri, that will be a very stupid bet. In the first place the expense will still be there, only bigger since now the translation will have to be done into Esperanto (not counting with all the problems that will create given the minuscule number of Esperanto speakers with the necessary skills to do the job, most Esperanto speakers are not translators and they will have to learn a lot more Esperanto to be minimally qualified. Also, Europe wants to do business with the countries of the World, which already do most of their international business in English. More importantly Europe (and the rest of the World) wants to do business with the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, South Africa and about other 70 countries whose official language is English and that comprise a larger share of the World trade than Europe. The other big slice of the commercial pie (Asia, India and Africa) is more interested in learning English than Esperanto. So there you go!
And regarding the strapping of a pair, strapping a pair will never be the same as having your own, which in the case of Europe were cut off by the immigrants (legal and illegal) invading Europe.
Let’s face it, Europe does not have the necessary pair to deal with that situation.
And you may face it as well, Esperanto will never amount to much in the big scheme of World things. Unfortunately, people will always do what is best for them (selfish humans that they are) and Esperanto is not the best for people (or at least most of them will tell you that), nor has it been for all the years since its creation. The way things are going right now, Europe will be an Arab speaking conglomerate before they a adopt Esperanto.
The internet was once 100% in English. The component in English has been constantly falling, and there is no evidence that this trend will change.
I think the order is English, Chinese and Spanish as the main languages of the internet.
Marcel, regarding the below statement
“If you choose never to work or live outside of your homeland, English is of no use to you.”
Then that state might as well just quit EU because it undermines the whole concept of the union. A person cannot live in total isolation from the rest community, the point is whether to be isolated or united . Our country is called EU not EI
Kurioze, la ideo mem de “oficiala (dua) Eŭropa lingvo” tute ne estas Brita…. Unigita Reĝlando ne havas “nacia himno”… tamen dum certaj okazaĵoj, Britoj kantas “God save the queen”.
Do, eble Britoj ne eblas kompreni, kial oni parolas pri oficialigi lingvon. Ĉu vi volas uzi Esperanton ? Nu, faru vi….!
Hugo Dias , how many Brits bother to learn another language ? They expect you to learn English to converse with them .
English for all world
Mi pensas ke vi estas freneza, la angla estas tre malfacila por homoj ne anglaj, studi angla estas perdo da tempo kaj de mono. P-ro Grin montris ke Esperanto estus la plej efika, la plej ekonomia solvo, kaj la plej malmultekosta solvo do 95 % de la eùropaj logantoj havus avantagon. La politikistoj estas tiel frenezaj kaj stultaj, kaj komprenas nenion ke necesus shangi tiun politikon maljusta.
Tiuj kiuj komprenas Esperanton povas traduki, mi ne havas la malsanon paroli angle, mi ne scias la anglan, tro malfacila kaj mi laboris en aviado dum 39 jaroj, pro tio mi bone konas la problemojn de la angla, la malfacileco kaj alie. Mi estas franca, mi unue parolas france
Most languages can be learned easily enough if you start early enough. Most British kids don’t start until 11 and they are spoilt for choice. French used to be compulsory but it was probably the least useful and people just forgot it. Most people with a GCE in French no longer speak it. I used to teach in France and the kids just couldn’t be bothered with English as it had a low points rating in the bac. German kids were and still are pretty enthusiastic about English. The standard of English in most small European countries is very high. Millions of Chinese children speak English fluently by the mid teens.
They state that 40% of people in the EU speak English, which is unfounded. I know for a fact that in Spain hardly anyone speaks any foreign language competently. Even though English may be the most-taught language in the EU, most children after leaving secondary school are not proficient in it unless they have put extra time at home and/or at school into learning it.
Spain is hardly “most” of Europe so that very few Spaniards, which have always have an aversion to English only surpassed by French, do not speak English well does not really affect the statistics. Spain have about 47 million people and the EU have over 500 million.
And you can only learn anything if you really study it. Just going to class does not make and Engineer.
A native spend his or her live in a 24/7/365 100% immersion course of his/her native language. Since birth! 13 years of study, from Kindergarten to High School, studying his/her native language and studying everything else in that same language. Then, if he wants to become a professional, he or she continues on to University and study an additional 4 to 10 years in the same language. And after all that, they speak the language fluently and without an “accent” (which is debatable), but still they do not know all there is to know about the language, they do not know all the words of the language and they need to continue learning everyday new words.
Every native speaker (of any language) goes through the same ordeal..
Then we want to learn a new language and acquire native proficiency in a couple of years. We want to do that by going an hour or two a day to class and once out we forget everything about it until the next day. And we become upset and blame the language for not learning enough, soon enough. Go figure!
Someone named Felipe stated that French, Portuguese and Spanish are “global languages.” This is not true. Only a few thousand people in all of Asia (4 billion people) speak any Spanish, French or Portuguese with fluency. The fact is that there is only one truly global language: English.
The fact is that there is no truly global language. Despite the astronomical spending on the promotion of English, the majority of mankind has no fluency on it. It has been calculated that if just 10% of the spending on English were to be diverted to teaching Esperanto, there would be two consequences: 1. Everybody on the planet could converse fluently, i.e. they would have at least a C1 level (at present they do not ever test for that level, as only about 1% of learners ever reach it, in English or any other national language). 2. Total knowledge of English in the world would increase, not decrease! This would be due the strong propaedeutical qualities of Esperanto, which prepare learners for subsequent language-learning much more efficiently than any other second language.
Having reached fluency in eight languages, including Esperanto, and having brought up two daughters to speak five languages fluently, I could give details for hours to back up those assertions.
They are “global” languages in the sense that they are spoken in several countries of the World. So are a few others like French and Dutch. But some are more “global” than others, meaning there are more countries that speak the language as the main or official language.
Sean, the only language that is really not a global language is Esperanto which is only badly spoken by a couple of million people or so and that is not the official or main language of any ethnic group or country. Your conclusions are not only baseless but wrong. Just the usefulness of learning English vs Esperanto makes its study worthwhile. Contrariwise, learning Esperanto needs to wait until the thing that are already in English be change to Esperanto to be useful. It is not the expense of teaching Esperanto to every person in the World what makes it impractical, but to change what is already done and accomplished in English to that language.
And if you have really reached fluency in eight languages it really offensive to say the rest of the people they will never attain fluency in English. It is not only offensive but arrogant. You are implying that the people is so stupid they can learn another language and that you are so much more smarter than they are that you not only learned another language and became fluent in it, but learned and became fluent in eight. I am not going to say that you are conceited I am just going to leave it to others to reach their own conclusions.
And regarding the “strong propaedeutical qualities of Esperanto,” it does not really make to much sense to learn a language you do not need just for the posible help it may or may not give you in learning another language that you need. On the other hand, every language you learn, even partially, will help you in learning other languages. You should know since you claim to have learned eight of them and taught your offsprings five. You have learned eight languages and taught your children five. To complete fluency! And according to you, the rest of us are so stupid we cannot learn even one. Conceit? Hogwash? How can we take you seriously?
Alejandro, by using a term as emotive and imprecise as “hogwash” you are admitting defeat. Let me spell it out: the use of English will always favour native speakers of that language, by giving them a permanent, unearned advantage. The comments here by learners of English just prove the point, by being full of grammatical mistakes. If English is so important, why can they not learn to write it properly? Even after so many years of study, and astronomical spending on the teaching of English.
I thought you were fluent in English, “hogwash” is neither emotional not imprecise, it is just “nonsense” (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/hogwash) and pigswill.
And Sean, I am NOT trying to win anything. The battle between English and Esperanto has already been won! Without my help and despite your and all the other Esperantists efforts. I just like to point out the foolish inconsistencies of your arguments.
Let me question your “spelling out”. If natives have such an advantage in English, how is it possible that so many immigrants and other English as a Second Language speakers have succeeded so much more than the native speakers, in the native speakers own country.
Everybody makes mistakes, grammatical and otherwise, in every language they know, including their native one, even the people that make a living out of the language like teachers and newspaper people. YOU make mistakes, genius that you are. Or are you telling us that you are also infallible, besides being so much more smarter than us since you became fluent in eight languages and we can even learn one enough to make ourselves understood.
You, like everybody else, make mistakes. And in your case it is worse, you make the mistakes in eight languages. You are neither a genius nor infallible, so stop implying it.
The importance of learning English is not given by how well , or bad, those who learn it write or speak it, but it derives (the importance of course) from its usefulness to those who learn it. There is more usefulness in badly spoken and written English than there will ever be in perfectly spoken or written Esperanto. Which according to the leadership of the Esperanto movement it is not nearly perfect enough.
And people spend “astronomical amounts” in what they consider better, and more useful and important. However misguided their considerations might be.
People would rather spend thousand of dollars in learning some English they can use to improve their lot than spend far less in learning a language they will only use to complain to others like them about how imperfect and expensive and difficult English is. Unfortunately that complaining does not put food in the table.
I know, there are a couple of typos and mistakes in my previous comments. But English is still important to me and the millions who speak it, however badly.
Now, I want to share with you, and with all others participating in this debate, including Esperantists, the following link.
. http://www.ted.com/talks/parag_khanna_how_megacities_are_changing_the_map_of_the_world?utm_source=newsletter_daily&utm_campaign=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_content=button__2016-04-05
That is why a Universal language is so important, whatever that language turns out to be.
And that is why English is so important, being so far ahead all other languages in it ubiquitousness.
Al Sinjoro Siain O Riain. Mi provis plurfoje sendi al vi retmesagon kaj revenas al mi, mi havis adreson en la jarlibro kiu sajnas malbona. Cu vi povas diri al mi la bonan nun , mi pensas ke estis retadreso de via laboro en Bruxelles, eble vi emeritigis. Mi volas sendi al vi peticion kiun mi faris car mi volas atentigi la homojn ke la angla lingvo povas esti dangera en la aviado, mi scias tion depost longtempe ke ekzistas konfuzoj kaj miskomprenoj inter pilotoj kaj kontrolaj turoj car la angla ne taùgas , tro malfacila, legu la raporton de Kent Jones forpasinta en la franca “la malavantagoj de la angla lingvo en la internaciaj flugaj komunikadoj. Depost la jaro 1988 gis 2000, 11 % de la akcidentoj okazis pri nekomprenecoj , 95 en Usono, kaj 250 alie. Do sekve, kiom da konfuzoj kaj malkomprenecoj okazis. Do, mi kun la subskribantoj de tiu peticio demandas alian lingvan politikon. La peticio estas por ciuj aviadaj oficejoj en la mondo sur la sito “www.avaaz.org” ; mi demandas al vi cu vi povas transdoni kaj eventuale subskribi gin se vi deziras. Grupo fondigis sur Facebook depost ke mi lancis circuleron. Nun mi lancis peticion. Mi rediras al tiuj sinjoroj ke la angla estis trudigita per sekreta konferenco inter British Council kaj Usono en 1960 en unua lingvo por anstataùi la naciajn lingvojn do estas dangero por la patrinaj lingvoj kaj naciaj lingvoj de ciuj, vidu en Francio, la franca ne estas respektita, ili metasz la angla anstataù la franca, ili ne plu scias paroli France. Mi dankas vin por via kompreneco. Elisabeth LAMBERT
Elisabeth, it is not the English language fault that the comptrollers or pilots do not learn it correctly. The same will happen with any other language unless they learn it properly. And French is a lot more difficult to learn and to pronounce than English is.
Elisabeth is absolutely correct. A scientific book by an American and native English speaker, Kent Jones, called “Communication Clashes and Aircraft Crashes”, illustrates the many aircraft accidents which took place due to the dominance of the English language in aviation, and the fact that it is so difficult to master. Just one example: English has only 5 vowels, but it has 22 vowel phonemes. Spanish has 5 vowels and 5 vowel phonemes. Esperanto is like Spanish, one sound one letter, one letter one sound, but it does not have the irregularities of the Spanish verb! Or any irregularities at all, in fact.
Yeah, I know! Esperanto does not have the irregularities nor the difficulties nor the imprecisions of all other languages. Nor their usefulness.
Yes there should be one official language that is taught in all European countries from the earliest age possible. You will never have a well functioning democratic political union without everybody being able to debate and exchange ideas in the same language. BUT!
DON’T FALL INTO THE TRAP OF DEBATING WITHOUT END WHICH LANGUAGE IT SHOULD BE. It will never end and it does not really matter.
Pick one! Even if it’s Finnish or Basque. Pick one!
English or Spanish are probably the easiest but no matter what millions of people are going to have a headache learning a new language. Also, we will have to accept that the first generation will speak the language broken and far from perfect, even leaders and people in public office.
But the fact of having a single official language is far more important than what language it is. If we want to be one European nation (And I think that is the only real option we have) Europeans need one common language.
I couldn’t have said it better. Kudos for you! Not only that, the following is a link that I think you will find interesting.
http://www.ted.com/talks/parag_khanna_how_megacities_are_changing_the_map_of_the_world?utm_source=newsletter_daily&utm_campaign=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_content=button__2016-04-05
Miscommunication between pilots and air traffic control —
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/jbp/lplp/2003/00000027/00000003/art00002?crawler=true
en: “Language confusion is a frequent cause of pilot error. Although English was made the common language of world aviation in 1951, miscommunication and crashes in which communication was a contributing factor are common. Standard phrases used by air traffic controllers in the United States contain numerous confusing elements. These include ambiguities, misnomers and illogicalities. Phrases are not derivations of a master plan as they should be. The inability of English to express specific instructions to pilots without confusion disqualifies it as a language for permanent use by aviation.”
eo (laŭvorta Esperantigo) “Lingva konfuzo estas ofta kaŭzo de pilota eraro. Kvankam la angla fariĝis la komuna lingvo de monda aviado en 1951, miskomunikado kaj frakasiĝoj, pri kiuj komunikado estis kontribua faktoro, estas komuna. Normigitaj frazoj uzataj de aertrafikaj registoj en Usono enhavas multajn konfuzajn elementojn. Ili inkluzivas plursencaĵojn, misnomojn kaj mallogikaĵojn. Frazoj ne estas derivaĵoj de ĉefplano, kiel ili devus esti. La neeblo de la angla esprimi specifajn senkonfuzajn instruojn al pilotoj malkvalifikas ĝin kiel lingvon por daŭra uzo ĉe aviado.”
You both know better than that. That statement is misdirection at its best and intentional deceit at its worse. So juffrouw Cooman and mademoiselle Mason stop trying to hide the sun with one finger or take us for a ride.
Languages are unanimated things and are not responsible for what comes out of the mouth of controllers and pilots nor are they to blame for the mistakes made by those who did not take the time to learn the language adequately. Like me with French or Dutch.
Blame the ball for the goalkeeper´s inability to catch it.
Al S-ro Alexander Carlos. Vi estas vere stulta. Vi prenas la homojn kiuj diras la veron kiel frenezaj. Mi scias plej bone ol vi ke la angla lingvo estas unu el la cefa kialo de flugaj akcidentoj ; mi laboris dum 39 jaroj en aviado ; ingenieroj plendis ke la angla kaùzas problemojn al ili, mi bone komprenis tion. La angla kaùzis sufice da mortintoj kaj rekomencos ; kelkfoje estas mortintoj, kelkfoje ne estas.
Akcidentoj kaj incidentoj per la angla. Car la angla estas tro malfacila por tiuj kiuj ne estas anglaj ; multaj homoj ne sukcesas prononci tiun lingvon. Sed kiel vi, mi vidas multaj kiuj estas stultaj kaj komprenas nenion ; certaj scias pri tio. La politikistoj estas tre stultaj kaj komprenas nenion. Kiu trudigis la anglan estas Usono kiu trudigis en aviado en 1951 sen fari provojn. Oni ne povas klarigi al vi, vi estas tro stulta por mi. Mi ne parolas kun la stultuloj. Estas perdo da tempo.
Alejandro, I leave your ad hominem abuse aside, as it does not merit a response. Sticking to facts, you appear to doubt that I have mastered eight languages. Well check it out for yourself. At http://www.seanoriain.eu there are some 60 of my articles in eight languages.
No Sean, I do not doubt you language abilities nor those of your children, I just pointed out that in one sentence you state that English cannot not be learn to an appropriate level by most people no matter how hard they try and then you gloat about being able to speak fluently in eight language, including English since you are stating it in that language. If that is not saying that you are way more intelligent than the rest of us, I do not know what is.
By the way , how did you came to know so may languages, how did you do it?
Now you are going to say that you learned Esperanto first and its “propadeutical qualities” allowed you to learn all the other languages without the need to study or attend clases in 1/1000 of the time. Esperanto is magical!
Hogwash! You are being intentionally deceitful. I know because I refuse to believe that you do not understand the problem we are discussing, being as smart as you boast to be.
EN
“I tried to talk a lot in this country about people, and people to meet people . I think governments are much more stupid than are their people. If we can get people talking to each other , live with each other, visit houses that go to school together , I am absolutely certain that most of the world’s problems would be over. and we could use all the great inventions of science to improve the human
Eisenhower, 1959 condition and improvement rather than attempt to destroy ourselves.“
President Dwight D. Eisenhower: “Remarks to Delegates to the General Conference of the Federation Aeronautique Internationale.“ April 9, 1958.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=11347
EO
“La registaroj estas pli stultaj ol iliaj popoloj (…) la pli granda parto de la internaciaj malfaciloj malaperus, se la popoloj havus pli oftajn kontaktojn unu kun la alia.“
Prezidento Eisenhower, 11an de aprilo 1958. Deklaro al reprezentantoj de la 51a Konferenco de la Internacia Aeronaŭtika Federacio.
Citita de Gaston Waringhien en “Lingvo kaj vivo“, p. 422. Eld. Stafeto, La Laguna de Tenerife, 1959.
Profesoro Gaston Waringhien aldonis en piednoto : “Neniu estis certe pli kvalifikita, por konstati tiun veraĵon, ol unu el tiuj du regnestroj, kiuj, malkonsentante pri la maniero havigi al la homoj la plej bonan vivadon, sisteme akumuladas la rimedojn definitive senvivigi tiun ĉi planedon, kio estos, en tia debato, la pruvo per nul.“
FR
“Les gouvernements sont plus stupides que leurs peuples (…) la plus grande partie des difficultés internationales disparaîtraient si les peuples avaient des contacts plus fréquents l’un avec l’autre.“
Président Eisenhower, 11 avril 1958. Déclaration aux représentants de la 51e Conférence de la Fédération aéronautique internationale.
Cité par Gaston Waringhien dans “Lingvo kaj vivo“ (Langue et vie), p. 422. Éd. Stafeto, La Laguna de Tenerife, 1959.
Le professeur Gaston Waringhien avait ajouté en note de bas de page : “Personne n’est certainement aussi qualifié, pour constater une telle vérité, que l’un de ces deux chefs d’États qui, en désaccord sur la manière de procurer une vie meilleure aux humains, accumulent systématiquement les moyens de rendre définitivement la planète sans vie, ce qui sera, dans ce débat, la preuve par zéro.“
Alejandro, I won’t take the bait. You will not provoke me into reacting by personal insults, which get us nowhere. Seriously, I did not learn my languages because of Esperanto. I am a diplomat, and I have worked for many years in many different countries – Austria, Germany, Poland, Belgium….I do not claim to be more intelligent that anybody else, just more determined. The toughest langauge I learned was Polish, and I did it by using every spare moment to study it, and by asking the three Polish secretaries at our embassy to speak to me only in Polish. They were happy to do so, I made a lot of mistakes for the first two months, and then my Polish got better and better, through intensive use. I spent five and a half years in Poland, in 1994-99, and I still speak Polish to every Pole I meet. The same with speakers of German, French, Irish, Welsh etc….and Esperanto. It is because I learned these languages the hard way, and I know most people would not be willing to study day and night for years, as I did, that I wish to propose something that all people can master easily, and which provides them with equality in international communication.
English is not an easy language to learn for all. It’s difficult for adults to adapt to a new language. Officialising English risks disrespecting and threatening cultural diversity and beauty. Each country has a rich history linked to their language. In addition, English shouldn’t be considered more important and shouldn’t come before French, Spanish or German.
Speaking fewer languages makes someone poorer.
“English shouldn’t come before French, Spanish or German”… And what about Basque, Catalan, Frisian, Saami, Welsh, Yiddish. These are the languages mentioned at the beginning of this article (see chart). And Occitan and the other 54 indigenous languages with 40 Million speakers? And other non-mentioned minority languages? Please try to remember the original question: ‘Should English be the only official language of the EU?’ Definitely not. I insist on an artificial language… Esperanto? Or Latin… Greek… but you won’t be happy to learn their grammar…
Esperanto grammar is so incredibly easy and logical. It fits on a card in your pocket. And there are no exceptions to the rules, so, unlike most other languages, it is difficult to make a mistake.
English should not be the global language because we need diversity to thrive.
Our class sees both sides of the argument:
On the “yes” side we feel we would undoubtedly see a more unified Europe as exchanges and tourism would increase. Europe needs more mutual understanding this very moment.
On the “no” side, we believe the official language should not be “English” but a new, more general (slang-free) global English. We’re afraid some smaller languages might disappear and the local cultures too. We’re questioning the special treatment that English gets.
However 80% of us leant to the “no” side when we took a vote on this issue.
Doesn’t matter because English will become more common naturally by itself with no additional effort. Therefore the EU doesn’t need an official language, but English will become the main language (more so than it already is), to the point of almost being an official language.
Also you can’t change English to create a “new global English”. English gains new words every day and grows naturally. English already is global and is nothing more than a language built from other languages anyways. And each nation that picks it up adds their own slang words into it as well (i.e. Indian-English, Singaporean-English, Aussie-English etc).
How many in the voting group? 80% of a small sample does not carry much weight. Now I would say that at least 7% (1 billion) of a 7 billion sample carries a lot more weight. And there is no “slang free” language, unless you are referring to an artificial language in which case the sample of speakers is really, really, really tiny. With Esperanto it is about 2 million out of 7 billion. Go figure the %.
From my knowledge in the Auto industry the legal document have to be in English and i understand that the law books in Germany are also in English. There is a discussion in Germany to use only English in some Universities and China have been buying children English learning books at an alarming rate. All the doctors in Germany embrace the English language which may be due to the medical developments in the world. I am obviously bias but may be a good reason for English to be considered.
French is the only working language of the European Court of Justice, because English, based on the Common Law system, does not have the precise vocabulary for the Continental legal system, e.g. for the concept of “détournement de pouvoir”.
AS if they do not abused, and abuse, their power in France, and in the EU. They are well known for it, from ancient times to modernity.
From the economic point of view of the student of language, French does not make any sense. Learning it will contribute very little, if at all, to the economic improvement and well being of the student, except in very specific cases. German, although very difficult and its limited area of use, will be a much more useful language from its greater economic influence. Spanish will be even better given its widespread use throughout the World. Chinese, even though it is the language spoken by the larger number of native speaker, presently have a limited usefulness, since it only is spoken in China, and the Chinese communities abroad, despite its obvious economic usefulness given China economic power.
“Schlechtes Deutsch besser als gutes Englisch” — http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/beispiel-porsche-sprache-in-firmen-schlechtes-deutsch-besser-als-gutes-englisch-1.292633
Et moi je n’ai pas le défaut de parler anglais, mais par contre je peux dire à ceux qui écrivent là que l’anglais ne convient pas, car est une des principales causes d’accidents et incidents d’avions, donc je vous suggère à signer la pétition en ligne que je demande le changement de politique linguistique pour une communication juste et à égalité dans l’aviation et voir ailleurs, il est prouvé par un ingénieur américain que l’Espéranto serait sécuritaire dans l’aviation et ailleurs, signez la pétition sur http://www.petitions24.net ou bien http://www.change.org Demande de changement de politique linguistique dans l’aviation voir ailleurs et cessez de parler anglais, apprenez l’Espéranto, il vaut mieux apprendre l’Espéranto facile que perdre des années à l’anglais pour des résultats minables.
Fair or unfair the choice has been made. European youth are choosing one language over the rest, outpacing the others by quite a bit.
YES!
with the UK now leaving the EU, that leaves only Ireland and Malta as the only countries with English as an official language. Not a lot of influence there.
and what with murmurings about EU muckity mucks going to “punish” the UK for daring to leave, there might not be that big a market for English. Heh heh.
NO!
NO!
Now that Britain has left the European Union, the reason for making English the sole official language of Europe only increases. This may sound counter-intuitive, but English is now a truly neutral language for Europeans — meaning, Europeans can no longer say it is too big an advantage for the British to have an English only policy!
However, there are still 2 countries where English is an official language and thus have an unfair advantage; therefore English is STILL unacceptable. Pick something else and allow each ethnic group to use it’s own language in education and daily life.
Then again, fanaticism has always been its own reward!
Even if not, it is still stupid, very expensive, unefficient, difficult to teach English (or Globish) to the whole Europe. It’s a language with its own culture and so difficult that spelling bees make even sense! You all have Esperanto there! Just 12 days and all Europeans would know more Esperanto than English in 120 days. Give it a try learn.esperanto.com and think about it for some minutes, Europe and the world is being stupid when they have such a genious invention, developped and problem solving
Hi Alex, who is being stupid, inefficient and wasteful? A couple of millions of Esperanto as a second language speakers (and not very good speakers at that, according to one of the main leaders of the Esperanto Organization) vs over half a billion of native and over half a billion additional English as second language speakers plus over three million of new learners a year (just in China).
There are not enough Esperanto speakers (good or otherwise) to teach the language to everybody in the World. Some ideals are pretty but not workable. Ask the Soviets. Then again, regardless of what you or I think, the people will eventually choose one or the other. Or maybe an entirely different one.
You for example are being stupid, inefficient and wasteful, you and only a few people out of those billions who also have been informed enough about Esperanto and just decide the stupid, unfair, inefficient, wasteful alternative.
I know you can’t do the maths, that’s the problem. You don’t mind teaching 95% of every generation (to come too) an additional language they can’t call their own, is unfair in front of the other 5%, and is 6 times harder to learn for fluency than Esperanto (i remind you English has spelling bees!).
You mention that leader quote but do forget about all students of English that did not learn anything or can barely speak after 10 years at school (now way more hours and resources to learn English+ strong motivation for getting a better job BUT STILL so much students fail compared to Esperanto students who use only a fraction of that and do not have a job motivation. “Three millions in China every year” hahaha. Nice joke. Try to speak English with them in 10 years) http://m.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/education-community/article/1936737/hongkongers-fail-everyday-english-pronunciation (and there they learn English for 10 years according to EF!)
You think Esperanto would substitute English worldwide all of a sudden… Such a childish mindset… As if we needed as many Esperanto teachers as current English teachers just right now, bravo!
You are right, it’s the people who will chose, and i will give my best to help them have at least two categories (ethnic bridge language vs planned one) and help them chose the best option for them, for everyone.
Sorry, but I can’t help myself laughing at your comments… I can put myself in your shoes, I use English fluently too as a bridge language but also fluent Esperanto studied in 6 months at home without teachers… And i can really compare… You can too… But your comparisons make me laugh, i can see you ignorance from miles away, they would be too weak for a debate
If it were up to you you would make the humanity keep on doing the same historical mistake everytime (Latin, French, now English, later maybe Chinese, Spanish, German…), that’s sad
Passion! That is all you get. Intelligence, not so much. Esperantist have been telling people Esperanto is the best alternative, SINCE 1887! I wonder how come it is not the World language already if it is so much better, I mean, after so much time pounding on people they should have realize already which is best for them, or haven’t they?
As always, resorting to calling people stupid, telling them that regardless what they do they will not learn English. Of course that does not apply to you because you are so smart. Well in reality, they aren’t and neither are you.
It does not matter how many students fail compare to Esperanto, there are still more people making it to an acceptable level than the totality of Esperanto students. It does not matter how long does it take for Chinese to learn, or how badly they pronounce, they are trying in huge numbers. So even is only 5% of them reach moderate fluency that is about 1,5 million in ten years which is more than Esperanto has accomplished in 130 years. And that is only in China. Presently there are over one billion people trying to learn English, worldwide, so in ten years 5% will yield another 50 million. How is Esperanto going to fare? Any idea?
But you want them to do a new mistake, well not so new, without getting anything in return, not even POTENTIALLY.
The following comes from a “second generation native speaker”
http://blogs.transparent.com/esperanto/2nd-generation-native-esperanto-speaker/
English will not supplant all the languages of the World all of the sudden either. And most of all those who speak the language are not capitalists set in World domination. You are a very good example.
And I know you wil do your best, and so wiil I. http://www.theworldlanguage.org
You think! Let’s wait and see. The UK has not left yet and some other countries are already talking about also leaving the EU. And I don’t think Germany will want carry most of the EU on its back. France does not care, they are too selfish for that, besides it is almost a Muslim state already, the same goes for the Nordic countries. But, people will still want to learn English notwithstanding, you got to go where the money is, don’t you?
The UK move is going to affect the markets so much it will force the US, Canada, Australia and a couple of other counties (English speaking countries, South Africa and a few other as well) to band together with the UK to protect themselves as well as the UK. That will probably harm the EU economically.
No better market for teaching English!
And by the way, how is the rest of the EU countries going to communicate with the rest of the World? In French, Italian or German? Spanish is only spoken in Spain and they are at the bottom of the EU barrel.
Anyhow, I agree that the EU will be better off without the UK, the only thing is it will have to kiss goodbye to Christianism and welcome Islamism. Now, what are you going to do? Convert!
Now that the UK is about to leave the EU, the English language will have more neutral character. It will favour only Ireland, Malta and Cyprus, which is a small per cent of the overall EU population.
Ireland, Malta and Cyprus have never been the point. All three together do not have one tenth the influence of the pound. Now the Euro and the pound will suffer but let’s wait and see which one recovers sooner. Do not underestimate the Commonwealth.
Who needs enemies with advocates like you.
I have already heard that argument. It is good… let me shout it :P… IF ENGLISH WERE THE ONLY WORKING LANGUAJE, NO (BIG) MEMBER STATE WOULD BE FAVOURED IN, SAY, THE ACCESS TO THE EU PUBLIC SERVICE.
AND WE WOLUD NOT BECOME ISOLATED FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD, AS WE WOULD BE IF ESPERANTO, OR GERMAN, WERE.
French, or Spanish, could be good options, becouse they are useful by themselves, to communicate with Africa and Asia (French) and with America (and a bit of Asia).
Vi ne ankoraù ne komprenas. Estas Usono kiu trudigis la anglan post la 2a milito kun la stultuloj kiuj akceptis, kun Britio, ambaù ili faris sekretan kunvenon por trudigi la anglan sen nenion demandi al aliaj. Nun Britio ne plu estas en Eùropo, povas esti ke ili ne plu uzos la anglan.
Estas vere ke Esperanto estas parolata per pluraj milionoj da personoj kaj kun la reto plialtigas.
Esperanto estus la plej bona solvo por Eùropo se la politikistoj kaj homoj ne estus tiel stultaj. Sed homoj komencas kompreni por kelkaj , mi jam havas 875 subskriboj kontraù la angla en aviado, en Air France ili ne demandas pli bone sangi tiun politikon. La angla estas kialo de akcidentoj, car estas tro malfacila kaj ne preciza, tio estas ke estas ciam problemoj. Mi skribas esperante car mi ne havas la malsanon de la angla , tro malfacila, oni trudis al mi, mi rifuzis lerni la anglan, 6 jaroj estis tro multe kaj mi neniam povis paroli tiun lingvon, post 6 jaroj de la angla, mi neniam povis paroli, kompreni, skribi, legi, kaj mi lernis Esperanton por malpli ol 6 jaroj, mi povas legi, kompreni kaj paroli.
Do,nun, mi batalas kontraù la trudigo de la angla al homoj kaj landoj ne anglo-usonaj. Mi iras en manifestacioj en Parizo kaj mi disdonas traktojn , mi subskribigas petleterojn kie mi revenas ciufoje kun pluraj folioj. Al S ro Carlos : vi komprenas nenion, vi estas unu el malsanulo de la angla kiun mi konas, multaj volas kompreni nenion kaj ne volas scii, oni ne povas paroli kun ili de alia ideo ol la angla, ili estas tiel stultaj, ili volas scii nenion. Jen mi diras la veron al vi.
Se vi ne komprenas, ne gravas.
I have always understood more than I allow to show. I am glad you are so active in your activism. I goes to show determination. Good for you!
The aviation accidents are not the fault of the English language, it is the fault of those who want to work in an environment that requires English and that do not take the time to learn it correctly. The same would happen with French, German, or any other language, including Esperanto. And Esperanto may be very easy to learn, according to you, but saying Hello, how are you? and answering is not the same as being proficient and fully functional in a language. And, as I am sure you know, being the activist that you are who keep tabs in the progress and advancement of Esperanto, there is a constant complain in the Esperanto Organization hierarchy about the lack of proficiency and functionality in the use of Esperanto by those who learn the language.
Additionally, that you have some kind of learning disability does not means others also have the same problem. Learning a language is difficult, regardless the language. Some languages are more difficult to learn than other, that is true. It is also true that some languages are more useful and beneficial to learn than others. So it is just a balancing act. Learn the language that is easier and more beneficial at the same time. That language is not Esperanto, for anybody. For many people it is English and for other it is French or German or Spanish or Italian, ect. It does not make any sense to learn a language that does not offer some benefits, except as a hobby or personal interest. The greater the benefits the more important it is to learn that particular language. Now, learn the language that offer the greater benefits to you, but stop criticizing other that want to learn a different language because they perceive it will provide them with more benefits.
And of course, if you do not agree or understand it does not really matter. Who will give credit for its highest understanding to an “understanding challenged” person.
The Britons said no to the EU. Why should the EU say yes for English as ‘the only official language’ of the EU?
Because it benefits the EU more than it benefit the Britons!
We cannot be unified until we speak a common language. English seems the best choice due to its level of difficulty and spoken by our people outside EU territory (US, Canada, AU). People live the same way , eat the same food (more or less), look similar yet they are divided because they dont speak the same language. It would be way easier if we all understood each other.
Ni unuigu kun pluraj lingvoj, kaj unu komuna facila lingvo. Esperanto estas la pli bona selekto….
Kion diris la nova brita ĉefministro? “Brexit is brexit”. JES. Ankaŭ lingve! Nun estas la tempo por la Eŭropa Unio: ADOPTI JUSTAN LINGVAN POLITIKON aŭ DISFALI.
Wat heeft de nieuwe Britse eerste minister gezegd? “Brexit is Brexit”. JA. Ook op gebied van taal! Nu is het ogenblik aangebroken voor de EU: EEN BILLIJKE TAALPOLITIEK AANNEMEN of UITEENVALLEN.
“Brexit is brexit”. Most definitely. You should watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km5LkCdayog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbXdDJ3phu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r91WwkgZGI
It will be enlightening!
Now, let’s wait and see who fare better in the future.
Hodiaŭ la EU-a komisionanino Margarethe Vestager akuzis la privatan firmaon Google pri tio, ke ĝi misuzas sian dominantan pozicion por altrudi sian “AdWords”.
Kiam EU-a komisionano kuraĝos akuzi anglalingvajn landojn pro tio, ke ili misuzas sian supozitan lingvan pozicion por altrudi la anglan al la cetero de la mondo, ekzemple en la internacia aviado?
How do they manage in the USA?
As always, we in Europe should take example.
http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-english-be-the-official-language-of-the-united-states
https://aeon.co/essays/why-would-the-usa-make-english-an-official-language
Do you mean we should take an example from Americans? Should every citizen in the EU have the right to buy and use firearms and on the other hand be forced to learn and use the language of some imperialistic colonialists in order to understand the laws?
Sorry, maybe it is not very polite to speak about the original population of the USA or those who were imported and forced to live there in slavery…
I think we need only GOOD examples, and they do not necessarily come from the USA.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone! Imperialistic colonialist? Have you forgotten Europe history? Are you not aware of EU activities nowadays? Why does the EU needs an Army? What does owning a gun have to do with it? (Yes, they should be able to own firearms, the same way they are allowed to own sexual paraphernalia.)
Slaves in USA? What about in Europe? What about in Belgium? Does the name of King Leopold brings back any memories? Napoleon? The King and Queen of Spain and the Americas? The Dutch and South Africa? And what about France and the other European states? Is it polite to talk about ten million Congolese dead? Europe for the most part did not import the slaves, they just went to their countries, plundered and raped their countries, enslaved and decimated their population and then left, without regard at how the natives were or were going to be. And that went on for centuries, even before the good old US of A was a country. So get off your high horse, you do not deserve it.
You are right, we need good examples. Europe and the EU are not them! US of A is not either a very good example, but it is better than most. Do you have some good ones? Let us know!
As a global language, English is poorly equipped to express a European identity. In the post-brexit EU, only 10% of EU citizens speak English as a mother tongue or very well as a foreign language, so its exclusive use in the EU would exacerbate social inequalities, and be perceived as “elitist”. Over-concentration on English is a crucial factor weakening motivation to study other languages. We need an objective, dispassionate and unprejudiced exploration by the EU authorities of the possibilities offered by that rich living language of culture, Esperanto.
“Rich living language of culture” What culture? What have Esperanto contributed to the World so far as culture is concerned. Esperanto is not rich, it is not living and definitely it is not the language of culture.
The “over-concentration on English” is not “a crucial factor weakening motivation to study other languages.” People study and try to learn the language they consider most beneficial. That is why there is over a billion people who speak English to various degree of proficiency and only a couple of millions that speak Esperanto.
You sure are funny Riain, you should consider a career as a stand-up comic.
Hey, Alejandro, my reaction was about that, what Spaniardfbm wrote:
“How do they manage in the USA?
As always, we in Europe should take example.”
I understood him this way “the EU should take example from USA”.
Did I misunderstand him? Do you think that Spaniardfbm means that the EU has to take an example from Europe… from itself?
Hi Leo,
No you didn’t, but then you went ahead and twisted it completely. As usual. I do not think that the example he used is the ideal one but nevertheless it is there if you look at it trying to see beyond the obvious.
English is not the official language of the USA; it is the de facto language, but great improvements have been made in order to accommodate people with other languages. Federally, so far, all intents to make it the Official Language have failed. Unfortunately, there still are some backwards states that need to see the light. They will come around eventually.
However, what really bothered me was your allusion to colonial imperialism, as if Europe had never engaged in it, when actually they were who invented and used it way before the US was a country. By the way they still use it and like the US they just call it a different name.
“Should every citizen in the EU have the right to buy and use firearms and on the other hand be forced to learn and use the language of some imperialistic colonialists in order to understand the laws?”
The use of the language has nothing to do with understanding the laws. You understand the laws in whatever language they are written on. Presently you also use a colonial imperialistic language to understand the laws (of your country, or whichever European country you happen to live in now)
I do not agree with everything that goes on in the US, but those things can and will be fixed. Just look at the change in the last 50 years. Then again the argument is not about the US being a good or bad country or about the US government being a good or bad government, which most of the time is not that bad and in some others it is worse. It is about the use of a particular language as the official language of the EU. Meaning, using a unique language for the official working of the government. So far I haven’t heard about using it to eliminate the corresponding language of the member countries too.
I imagine that what is really happening is that people are afraid because the central EU government is taking the high road in certain issues, like creating a Constitution and a Judicial system that will supersede the individual state ones. Now they also want to militarize the EU creating an army. It could be interpreted as wanting to create a unified Europe instead of a Union of European States. That worked in the US because the states were never independent countries, just part of a whole. Brexit was the first result. I assume that much more time is needed to unify Europe.
On the other hand, Esperantists insidiously try to portrait Esperanto as the solution to the World’s problems. It is not. Many of the World problems have nothing to do with language and their correct solution, if implemented, can be carry out in any language.
They claim that Esperanto having been created to be used as an international auxiliary language, easy to learn, regular and with a vocabulary easy to expand, will help create a bridge between the people of the World. True, in the long term. (English, and to a lesser extent Spanish, French, German and Chinese are presently doing that.)
Without intruding in the culture of those who adopt it. False, in the median and long term.
Any language, I do not care which one, that becomes the Lingua Franca of the World will eventually eliminate all other languages, that is inevitable. It is simple Human Nature. If everybody speaks and are fully functional in a Universal Language all other languages will see their use diminished until they no longer are used. That does not mean the cultural heritage will be lost as well, which will only happen after borders and traveling and moving restrictions have been completely eliminated. Then, and only then, the people of the World will become one, although I imagine that many will continue with certain traditions out of respect for their ancestors. You can also use the US as an example in this regard. In most cases by the third generation the original language and some of the customs are gone. Other cultural characteristics last a little longer.
It is in this respect that the EU should look to America.
The US is the only place in the World where almost all the different cultures of the World are represented, and the people conserve and continue developing their own culture and speak their own language without restriction about it use in public, the media, advertising, etc. However, they are also expected to learn and adopt English so they can integrate in their new environment and be able to function in society. They are the newcomers, it is their duty and responsibility to adapt. And they live in peace, well at least most of the time. You can even become a US citizen without speaking a word of English (http://tudecidesmedia.com/immigration-obtaining-citizenship-without-the-requirement-of-speaking-engl-p2069-128.htm).
Right now, all those immigrants coming into the EU for various reasons are expected to eventually learn the language of the area where they settle. If they start claiming that Europe have to change for them but they do not have to, the solution is easy, send them back.
Language have never been the problem, it have always been the people.
So the only thing left is the logistic one. With English, and with other languages to a lesser extent, most of the infrastructure is already in place and there are more than a thousand million people that already speak English to various levels of proficiency. There is almost no infrastructure for Esperanto and there are only a couple of million of speakers. The rest is just math.
Still the demagogue
Alejandro,you are completely wrong about aviation accidents. I have a book by an American engineer, not an Esperanto speaker, called “Communication Clashes and Aircraft Crashes”. This book carefully documents all the aircraft crashes caused over the years by the inherent ambiguities of English. Claude Piron’s “Le Défi des Langues” describes an experiment where 20 languages were tested on their effectiveness in conveying a message where there is a lot of background noise – as in an aircraft emergency. Italian was the most effective language, Esperanto was second, and English was 18th!
You ask “what culture”. I will try to enlighten you. Try reading the 740 pages of Dr Geoffrey Sutton’s “Concise Encyclopedia of original Esperanto literature” (Mondial, New York, 2008). This will help you with your problem, and the richness of Esperanto culture may become clearer to you.
Sean, ignore Alejandro, he has proved too many times he is blind and likes to lie whenever possible (about languages he currently speak, about Esperanto which he once “learned” [really, after so many untrue facts i can’t believe it?] etc.). He can’t read/speak in Esperanto but he knows much more about Esperanto than any Esperanto speaker…
We could create a list of contrasted nonsenses he has been saying but it’s like speaking with a child… Well, a child would finally keep his mouth shut and he won’t, ever ever because he has freedom to speak and say nonsenses and tell lies.
I would enjoy filming a live debate about this topic with him… It would easily show how ignorant he is in this field (we could start with: ok, what do you know about Esperanto, enlighten me), and how hard he has been thinking about this whole matter.
AlejandroCarlos said:
” I have stated I have nothing against Esperanto per se.”
Then he said: Esperanto is not rich, it is not living”
mmm… Ok…
Stats now: 18% of all comments are from AlejandroCarlos (308 out of 1718)
No, i’ve been checking this and you just reply to people who don’t love English as a bridge language. And i don’t see that attack in group.
“Have you noticed how any time I respond to one person all of you come out and attack me in group. I can help being polite and answering each and everyone of you. That is the reason I have so many comments.”
En fin, Alejandro, algún día iré poniendo tus mentiras y “argumentos” (algunos tienes, argumentos que comparto a favor del inglés, pero que tienen poca altura de miras para lo que creo que se puede lograr mejor) en una lista y al lado la realidad contrastable (claro, si no sabes esperanto puedes expresarte libremente y decir idioteces sin referencias/pruebas como que no tienes “nada en contra” pero el idioma no es rico o no tiene cultura, o que sería lo mismo en aviación hablarse en inglés que en italiano, esperanto o español… Ajá…).
Si por cada estupidez que has dicho sobre datos del esperanto (ojo, que en este debate puedes contrastar tus creencias de datos con la realidad! Que no es un debate en directo!), luego desmentida por los que de verdad sabemos del tema (ojo, tú no sabes casi nada, para nosotros debates como si hablaras ahora del islandés, idioma que la mayoría desconoce) te cobrara 10$ el que te desmiente…
1) responderías menos
2) tendrías menos dinero
3) tendría yo más dinero
4) este debate sería más constructivo, intelectual y tendría menos comentarios basura (si, muchos comentarios tuyos son basura: mentiras y ocultación de verdad, =medias verdades.) Por desgracia comentar es gratis y seguirás mintiendo y ocultando la verdad que te incomoda y no quieres ver.
Si hiciera un resumen de argumentos a favor del inglés (no como idioma entre nativos sino siempre con el papel de lengua internacional), en contra del inglés, a favor del esperanto, y a favor del chino, francés u otros idiomas étnicos este “debate” podría terminar pronto respondiendo a la gente con esa tabla (las diferencias solo serían el peso que cada uno le da personalemnte a cada hecho real/argumento lógico. En tu caso los valores/argumentos éticos/económicos a medio o largo plazo/educativos a corto plazo, etc tendrían valor 0 y todo el valor estaría en pragmatismo actual (nada de pensar en alternativas con 10 años vista) y esperanzas propias: que el esperanto se va a estancar, que el inglés no se estanca y crecerá más que ahora, y que si no vendrá el chino y luego otro idioma pero nunca algo como el esperanto). Tendré que hacer la tabla algún día para callarte la boca con cada idiotez de dato y felicitarte por momentos lúcidos con un simple “correcto, como en la fila 43, aunque yo soy optimista como en la fila 58”
O… “Falso, tu ‘no tiene cultura viva’ se demuestra en la fila 67”. Dejarías de repetir las mismas mentiras y nosotros dde escribir tanto repitiendo muchas veces (a cada mentira repetida)
Correction: i was wrong saying “out of 1718”, i just looked for “th,” but English is not Esperanto, it’s much less regular and adding all “3rd”, ” 2nd,” and “1st,” (or justblooking on the top page) the are 2393 comments in total. So Alejandro is still the one that most commented, so it’s not 18% but almost 8% (which still is a lot, three times more than Seán, 7 times more than me, etc)
Sorry Riain, languages are not ambiguous, people express themselves ambiguously. There are manuals that detail and explain how such (aviation) communication should be carried out. It is the human component that makes the errors and that will happen regardless the language used. Blaming English is just convenient.
Hi Alex, that was a mouthful (of s—). I do not care much what you think or believe. You, and the rest of your friends, are nothing but a bunch of politicized anti-UK and anti-US political activists using this platform as a podium, and Esperanto as an excuse, for your political activism.
I am no expert in Esperanto but neither are you, or the other Esperanto activists carrying out their activism in here. Regarding Esperanto, I get my info in the same places you get yours.
I may have more comments than you or Sean but the reality is that there are many others (De Coonan, Mason, Lambert, Rob, etc.) that belong to the same group of bullies that attack anyone who advocates English and respond yes to the question. I won’t stand for that. I won’t be bullied. Not only that, you and your Esperantist friends have used this debate as a means of interchanging comments in Esperanto that do not address the topic. That is abuse.
The bunch of you get angry any time anyone simply shows your comments are not honest, just propaganda. Of course, you and your pals can think any way you want, but so do other people. And they have the right to exercise that right without you and your cronies coming after them with a vengeance.
Esperanto is not a dead language, I agree, but it not a “living” language being used in the day to day of people in any one place, subject to the vagaries of use, abuse and change that people inflict upon their language on a daily basis. It is just an idea, good or bad depending on your opinion, that did not catch as intended. There have been many of those. Latin is considered a dead language and there are more Latin fluent speakers than there are of Esperanto.
Rich, well there may be a somewhat large (a few thousand) of books in Esperanto, most of them translated. You cannot call the few (maybe hundreds) originally written in Esperanto “rich”, in most cases the plot happens in a place where Esperanto is not the language normally spoken. So Esperanto is the target language. English, French, Spanish, German, Chinese, Japanese, etc. are rich languages with their own literary tradition of hundreds of years. Esperanto does not belong into that group. There are many languages that although they represent a particular culture are not rich either since there is very little original literature. Latin is a dead language and there is a lot more original literature in Latin than in Esperanto.
“language of culture,” now that is a misleading statement. That is to say that Esperanto “is” the language of culture. Nothing further from the truth. Not only it is not “the language of culture” but it is not even the language of “a” culture. It is like saying that English is the “language of culture” because uncountable books (a heck of lot more) have been translate into it. English is not “the language of culture”. It simply is the language of the English culture. Esperanto does not have a culture. http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/culture
“En tu caso los valores/argumentos éticos/económicos a medio o largo plazo/educativos a corto plazo, etc. tendrían valor 0 y todo el valor estaría en pragmatismo actual (nada de pensar en alternativas con 10 años vista) y esperanzas propias.” Esperanzas propias, ¿de quién? ¿Esperanto, Esperantistas? Let´s go back to English so other participants can understand, this after all is not a private conversation.
The most important expectations (immediate, short, medium and long term) are those of the students, after all he/she is the one doing the learning, putting the time, money, and effort. Ideals are very nice but people do not eat ideals, nor do they pay the rent or the school tuition of their children with them. It does not matter what I, you or anyone else thinks or believe. The student has the power of decision; his/her choice is what counts. So far they have been choosing English over Esperanto. So I would dare to say that “immediate gratification” is important in this context.
Go ahead do the table, information is a bitch without owner, it will bite even those who feed it. It also has another benefit. When people get truthful and accurate data and information they tend to make better and more informed choices and to take better decisions. And please, do not demonize the language, like the knife your cut yourself with, it is not to blame. Only people are capable of good or bad actions, “things,” never.
I do not know what you mean by “fila 43,” etc. I only repeat the same things because you and the others keep attacking people with the same distorted arguments. I have already said that I (and you all) have said everything there is to say in favor or against Esperanto (and English) and that it will be good to let it be. But no, you all have to come back and continue pouncing on the unaware, innocent English language advocate. You, and them, have said everything you have to say (do not repeat yourselves) so stop beating other people and I will stop commenting on your comments.
What do you think? Fair?
It’s a pity you don’t have to pay for so many lies, nonsenses you tell, and the analysis and English reading lesson here. The longer your comment, the more your nonsenses and lies.
“nothing but a bunch of politicized anti-UK and anti-US political activists” ha ha ha! So if you don’t support English as a bridge language > you are all that (see? Childish argument/mindset)
“I am no expert in Esperanto but neither are you, or the other Esperanto activists carrying out their activism in here. Regarding Esperanto, I get my info in the same places you get yours.” ha ha ha. Yes, so you know exactly the same things and you can read info/essays/reports/stats in Esperanto, French, German and ask Chinese esperantists (ahh, yes, you once lied you “speak” all those languages! Info about that lie: June 27th, 2016 “It’s great everything we write will be here forever!”) >> you know almost NOTHING, you usually have just prejudices and read some stuff in English, maybe in Spanish. You are like a blind/arrogant Chinese student who can’t speak Chinese and read only stuff in English for one hour… Talking about Chinese language and culture to another Chinese speaker who did learn the language very well, had contact with Chinese culture/speakers and can read stuff in Chinese about its culture and language! >>> again, you should pay 20$ now for your lies and nonsenses.
“bullies that attack anyone who advocates English and respond yes to the question. ” ok, read carefully: you replied lately to Sean, Toni, Ron, Orthohawk, Lycée CF… Check you sentence and feelings, you are replying to almost anyone, to support their YES or tell them they are wrong about NO or No+Esperanto(or alternatives to English). You consider attacks, giving info/facts/alternatives they might ignore? (Eg: “French is the only working language…” > ok, i’ll reply)
“Esperanto is not rich, it is not living and definitely it is not the language of culture.” that is A LIE, DON’T YOU SEE THAT??!! Next time if you want to speak as an adult say “not as rich as the culture in Latin or other big languages that have been around for hundreds of years” + “not living in the sense that ‘being used in the day to day of people in any one place,’ it isn’t ‘subject to the vagaries of use, abuse and change that people inflict upon their language on a daily basis’ ”
“It is just an idea, good or bad depending on your opinion, that did not catch as intended” ok… Just an idea. From a ‘living language” to just and idea with no future (sir, that is a lie [it is a language, with a logic idea backing it] and an/your opinion, that it will never catch as intended)
“there are more Latin fluent speakers than there are of Esperanto.” just a lie to attack a/my (in my opinion, experience, much wider knowledge about it than yours) logic alternative. Show me your stats, facts. Ok, you won’t. You are not being an adult with all the Esperanto topic. I’ll give you an estimate “He estimates the number of fluent Latin speakers as no more than 100” source: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21412604 just telling lies all the time… How couldn’t you “feel bullied” when you are constantly hit by the truth for every lie you say?
—-
Ok, ENGLISH READING UNDERSTANDING LESSON only for you, Alejandro, and your lies:
Seàn said:
“that rich living language of culture”
YOU REPLIED like a child:
«”Rich living language of culture” What culture? […] Esperanto is not rich, it is not living and definitely it is not the (!!!) language of culture».
So here anyone can see you are the one who wrote that stupid “THE language of culture”, can we agree with that?
Then Seán replied: «You ask “what culture”. I will try to enlighten you. »
END OF THE LESSON: you are so stupid and emotional with this topic about Esperanto you used your own stupid sentence! (And If i had writen that sentence, i would have explained that “THE” is of course not what i meant, and people, but not you, should have supposed that THE was too arrogant, so kind of a typo)
«“language of culture,” now that is a misleading statement. That is to say that Esperanto “is” the language of culture. Nothing further from the truth. Not only it is not “the language of culture” but it is not even the language of “a” culture. It is like saying that English is the “language of culture” because uncountable books (a heck of lot more) have been translate into it. English is not “the language of culture”. It simply is the language of the English culture. Esperanto does not have a culture.»
Wow, what a final sentence!!
“[English] simply is the language of the English culture. Esperanto does not have a culture.” (so one of the facts I use to tell people why English is bad as a bridge language + a big childish arrogant prejudice lie!! Great mix!)
—
how much would you own me for those big lies you tell? I think more than 100$… It’s a pity this rule does not exist and you’ll keep going. Of course, i won’t analyse the rest of your long mistaken arrogant comment. But with this you should learn it’s wiser for you to keep your mouth shut when speaking about any topic that you really don’t know about. But i bet you won’t shut up (because you have the right to speak and say nonsenses! But you forget a right comes with responsabilities), and that’s sad.
These are just tags to find this comment when i want to reply you are lying in a comment of yours, and i want to show a proof that you are promt to lies and mistakes about Esperanto related stuff.
#lies #analysis #Alejandro
Alex, you still want to make something into what it is not. Now the offenses and character attacks. Who is the emotional one. Who cannot accept facts.
You say I am a liar. Look who is talking.
I will simply leave you with this:
There are over on billion English speakers in the World, there are less that three million Esperanto speakers.
Most of the World cultural heritage is available in English, either original language or translated. Only a very small portion of that same cultural heritage is available in Esperanto, most of it translated.
English is the de facto World language of commerce, trade, finance, science and communication. Nobody uses Esperanto for anything except to talk to other Esperantists and complain that the hated Imperial English language is used instead of their venerated Esperanto.
Those who learn English can, and do, get an immediate benefit. It is not even sure that those who learn Esperanto will ever get anything in return.
There are more than three million new students of English in the World a year. (There are more than three million of students just in China). There are only a few hundreds, or being magnanimous a few thousands, of new Esperanto students a year.
Those are the facts. Whatever else I, you or anybody else says is irrelevant, whether it is true or not.
Now you go ahead an say that is not true. It does not matter, facts do not change because you call them something else. Chao.
“your comment is waiting moderation”
… why it disappears then with no explanation? (This is a test, if approved, but not my real reply [which this second time i saved], I’ll keep on trying and contact the website admins to ask what is wrong with the server/comment/a link/a symbol/anything to solve this problem… i don’t like to type for nothing)
2nd part of a whole reply that isn’t posted because of moderator or a website error, etc.
“Those who learn English can, and do, get an immediate benefit. It is not even sure that those who learn Esperanto will ever get anything in return.”
>> Right, they get benefits (but both English AND Esperanto learners), currently more in English than in Esperanto (although according to experiments like the current Springboard to languages Esperanto is a smart investment to learn foreign language faster than without that investment).
The more English (or Esperanto) they know, the more benefits/opened doors/things they can do. But you should consider that in order to get a high level in English, to hold a non tourist/non basic conversation studying English just at school, people need more than 10 years there, and many students, for example in China or Spain can’t hold a conversation in English after all that time/taxes/money/efforts spent.
There are many factors, some of them are: English isn’t easy (compared to Esperanto any ethnic language is unnecessarily difficult for an international role), lack of more years to study, lack of high level English teachers, lack of better resources (resources are never perfect, can always be improved or better selected), lack of a close mother tongue like Swedish/Dutch that makes everything way easier, lack of success (many people get frustrated learning ethnic foreign languages), lack of English around them (Chinese and Spanish languages are really big, they are not Latvian. People in Latvia watch TV mainly with Latvian subtitles with mainly Englishaudio), etc.
With Esperanto, all those deficiences/shortcomings (if English were easy like Esperanto, i could have said “lacks” > mankoj) would drastically decrease just because Esperanto isn’t difficult (as always, compared to an ethnic language), even Chinese speakers would need around 2 (max 3) years just at school to get fluent in Esperanto (so able to hold more than tourist/ basic conversations). It gives you a quick taste of success, no frustrations compared to other foreign languages. Of course, it would be a medium/long term establishment of Esperanto teaching (you can’t ask Esperanto to have the same resources as English all of a sudden, as you couldn’t ask English 100 years ago to have as many resources as for learning French)
—-
“There are more than three million new students of English in the World a year. (There are more than three million of students just in China). There are only a few hundreds, or being magnanimous a few thousands, of new Esperanto students a year.”
>> Right for English, wrong (as usually, you should avoid speaking about Esperanto without facts/stats to prove what you say).
You like figures, I don’t care (that much) because they will always change (and I hope they will increase for Esperanto and decrease. What if I tell you from June 2015 to June 2016 up to 400.000 people registered in the Esperanto course (in English) just on Duolingo? Here is the proof https://www.duolingo.com/course/eo/en from which I know around 40 people finish the course every day (so 14600 got a very good knowledge in Esperanto last year, only there. And 50 out of 54 websites to practice many languages offer Esperanto, so not just Duolingo). What if I tell you I’ll launch that duolingo course in Spanish next month? We expect that in 2020, just on duolingo, being conservative, there will be 5 million people registered in the Duolingo Esperanto courses in English, Spanish, and the languages to come in the following year (just from 2019-2020 we expect 1,5 million new learners there)
My first book in Esperanto was The Little Prince (read for the first time, both in Esperanto and French side to side)
“Grown-ups love figures… When you tell them you’ve made a new friend they never ask you any questions about essential matters. They never say to you “What does his voice sound like? What games does he love best? Does he collect butterflies? ” Instead they demand “How old is he? How much does he weigh? How much money does his father make? ” Only from these figures do they think they have learned anything about him.”
― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
—
“Those are the facts. Whatever else I, you or anybody else says is irrelevant, whether it is true or not.”
>> Yes, those are/were facts (except for some facts you made up for Esperanto) and i agree with those real facts (my sincere congratulation for so many real facts/arguments, keep improving those where you mention Esperanto, double checking up things first in order no to tell lies anymore). It has never been easy to change facts for the better, but they finally change and I’ll do my best to improve the world with new facts, based on current facts and a glance into the future (a brighter one for me, with ethnic languages without a bridge role they were not made for by human society/creation)
—
“Now you go ahead an say that is not true. It does not matter, facts do not change because you call them something else. Chao.”
>> Most of these are true. Congrats. But remember:
«A fact is not good just because it is a fact.»
Have a good day. I hope we can keep on exchanging real information more often. Generally speaking I am quite thankful for this last comment from you
1st part, subpart A (I am subdividing because) of a whole reply that isn’t posted because of moderator or a website error/filter I try do go over, etc.
alejandro, you said “You say I am a liar. Look who is talking.”
>> Well, i contrasted what you said with facts, statistics, etc. and you/anyone could see on my last reply (i got quite upset) you told many lies, and usually when speaking about Esperanto. If I lied, please quote me (don’t ignore the context), show the real fact/statistics (better with sources) and i won’t have any problem to apologize for that (we’ve talked a lot, you might find something somewhere)
—
“There are over on[e] billion English speakers in the World, there are less that three million Esperanto speakers.”
>> You are quite right, there is a really huge difference right now, as with French VS English 100 years ago or Latin Vs English 400 years ago (but not bad for such a dead language without nation/power/former imperium behind :-P )
We know figures are constantly changing, and I believe English will fade away as Latin or French did and Esperanto will keep on growing just because of the will of world’s peoples (for any reason anyone will find to learn it)
One billion and three million are estimates (very difficult to get, even more for Esperanto with no country full of natives). Two weeks ago I started tweeting David Crystal about his estimates of English speakers wordwide (1,2M in 2003 and now he estimates it could be 2M). You can see here I think he is being too optimistic and he answered me he didn’t take into account all that people that once could hold a conversation but, since they don’t practice, now they can’t or they totally forgot. (source: Search on tweeter for davcr and HEJSesperanto )
So I don’t care that much about figures, if we would care that much we would still live in a world where almost everyone is a slave (but the world evolves > plebeians, then male white citizens, now in many country just citizens), with no human rights, electrity, airplanes, computers, internet, home telephones, smartphones.
—
“Most of the World cultural heritage is available in English, either original language or translated. Only a very small portion of that same cultural heritage is available in Esperanto, most of it translated.”
>> You are currently right again (although I don’t know the stats of original VS translated Esperanto literature/songs/etc), and that argument was wrong for Latin VS English 400 years ago… or even Esperanto VS English if we just measure 129 years of Esperanto’s lifetime and 129 of English lifetime when it started being called English.
“the possibilities offered by that rich living language of culture, Esperanto” Is a better quote of what Sean said and I do not know how much English you actually know but it implies exactly what I said. He is saying that Esperanto is “the” language of culture and that it is rich and living. So apparently you are right, no matter how much they study some people really never learn English correctly. I imagine that is why there are aviation accidents. The flight controllers learn English and then they want to put a different spin in the meaning of what was said. I still do not see it as the fault of the English language.
Ok Alex, you win. Esperanto is better, more useful, faster growing and of course easier to learn, richer in literature and vocabulary and with greater cultural heritage and influence than English. According to you.
There are a lot more benefits to be gained by learning Esperanto than English. In the long term. According to you. What about the short term? Is it irrelevant?
I do not know how you look at things and how you interpret what other people say, but I thought that stating facts is not talking bad about the thing or things those facts refer to. And facts are never lies, nor can they be twisted to show the opposite. Then again I have never been a demagogue so what do I know?
But I know facts and I know numbers and even though mathematicians lie, facts and numbers never do.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jay_walker_on_the_world_s_english_mania
I have never said that people should not learn Esperanto nor have I said those people must learn English. I have only said that in the present day World it is more useful and conductive to individual advancement and prosperity to learn English. I do not offend people telling them that I learned English as a second language and I am fully functional in said second language, but that they are too stupid to be able to learn it. I do not tell them they will be better off learning a language the maybe, just maybe, will be useful 100 or 200 years from now instead of learning one that will help them and their families now, today.
In Esperanto as in any other language people who learn the language will forget and become less and less fluent and functional as time goes by if they do not use it in a regular basis. So, of all those people who are learning Esperanto, how many will still know it 10 years after they finish learning it. How many will accomplish full functionality without using the language in a daily basis in normal circumstances, and how many will maintain that functionality after several years of not using the language for any practical purpose.
So if you are offended by facts and numbers, I am truly sorry. It was not my intention to offend you. But it is very offensive that you and others keep repeating inaccurate slogans and twisting statistics to serve your purposes. And on top of that keep calling people doubly stupid, one for wanting to learn English despite being to stupid to learn it and another for being so stupid they prefer to spend their time and money on something practical that will benefit them and their families instead of preferring to spend their time (I am not going to say money since according to you it is unnecessary to learn Esperanto) in learning Esperanto, despite not being useful now and of uncertain usefulness in the future.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/266808/the-most-spoken-languages-worldwide/
Then again, what do I know? I only have a BS in Chemistry not a PhD in bs.
Also, congratulations in your new endeavor of teaching Esperanto to Spanish speakers. I will continue teaching them English (www.inglesmoderno.com).
So you can enjoy the richness of the English culture.
http://www.ted.com/search?q=English
Watch it, I guarantee you will like it. Very anti US, politically, but also very telling about the nature of English.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jamila_lyiscott_3_ways_to_speak_english
And this is 1st part, subpart B (I’ll try to post the final part of subpart B, for Alejandro’s comment on 21th July. I already tried 6 times to post this subpart B completely, but I couldn’t :( )
“English is the de facto World language of commerce…”
For you first sentence: you are absolutely right. I had that argument in mind when I first met Esperanto and finally that day I decided to give Esperanto a try after pondering on that (and many other stuff that came to my mind).
I will ignore that second sentence a furious child would write because it brings nothing real to this discussion (please, try to avoid that). I show you a fragment from this article (almost your argument plus reply)
…I show you a fragment from this article (almost your argument plus reply):
go here please http://claudepiron.free.fr/articlesenanglais/whyesperanto.htm
and read the answer where the sentence “A fact is not good just because it is a fact” was writen. (So this is the last comment for that comment on 21st)
Reply for Alejandro’s comment on July 23rd:
That “better quote” does not give any further hint he is saying “THE”, like you said.
“the possibilities offered by THAT rich living language of culture, Esperanto”
you could say We should check “the possibilities offered by that rich living language of culture, English” or French, or even Klingon. That Esperanto word at the end just explains what his “that” in that sentence, you could change the sentence with this same meaning:
“exploration by the EU authorities of the possibilities offered by Esperanto, a rich living language of culture”
he did not say: by Esperanto, THE rich living language of culture. YOU placed that THE… I wonder why but that isn’t good.
“Ok Alex, you win. Esperanto is better, more useful, faster growing and of course easier to learn, richer in literature and vocabulary and with greater cultural heritage and influence than English. According to you.”
> Ok, another childish argument… why do you do that? > It is better as a bridge language, it is currently not more useful than English, it is growing faster (not comparing millions of new speakers, but rates: it is said 2 million people speak Esperanto because of a lack of stats, i told you in 2020 we expect 5 million new learners… that is a 250% more than before, I doubt English will increase that much by 2020). The rest is just wrong, English literature, vocabulary, cultural heritage and influence is greater than Esperanto but you know that, still, you had to act like a child again… I don’t like this, you know?
“There are a lot more benefits to be gained by learning Esperanto than English. In the long term. According to you. What about the short term? Is it irrelevant?”
> In the short term Esperanto does not give a lot more benefits than English (that’s why nowadays I personally recommend learning Esperanto AND English), it still give benefits: learning English faster if learned first, cheaper/easier way to master a language, to talk with foreigners (in a more little community, I hope you know that), feeling you are speaking in a fairer basis with other foreigners, etc.
“I do not know how you look at things… show the opposite.”
I absolutely agree with you.
“Then again I have NEVER been a demagogue so what do I know?”
> Never?? think and read again… lately (July 21st) you told real facts I agreed with, BUT I have to tell you you’ve been lying a lot of days, even in July 21st this was absolutely wrong “It is not even sure that those who learn Esperanto will ever get anything in return” (any benefit at all?? even not some protection Against Alzheimer like any studied language would give???) or this wrong estimate (based on your OPINION, not on any stat/fact, I bet that) “There are only a few hundreds, or being magnanimous a few thousands, of new Esperanto students a year”. I proved that those were lies, not facts.
Ok, you know virtually nothing about Esperanto nor it benefits in the short term, so “today” (I just gave you some). So I don’t wonder you “do not tell them they will be better off learning [Esperanto]”.
“I have never said that people should not learn Esperanto”.
And I somehow think if some friend or family member would tell you he will start learning Esperanto… you would try to convince them they “should not learn Esperanto” because even Chinese would be better, and because “maybe, just maybe, [Esperanto] will be useful 100 or 200 years from now” and they should instead learn one “that will help them and their families now, today.” You wouldn’t force them not to learn it (of course, I don’t think you are a dictator)… but you would give a lot of “arguments [real fact and also many lies]” not to learn it.
“In Esperanto as… any practical purpose.”
> I know that, Mr Crystal didn’t seem to know that. And I just hope that figure of constant speakers will only grow as you do hope that for English, i suppose.
“So if you are offended by facts and numbers, I am truly sorry. It was not my intention to offend you.”
> No offenses, if you show real fact, i won’t get offended. If you lie give false facts, the I will get offended (and that will make me think/say you are being stupid/ignorant in a specific field, if repeated too much > when mentioning facts about Esperanto, you have a good list of false facts, so lies, intelligent people for that field would have checked..)
“I only have a BS in Chemistry not a PhD in bs.”
> Well, as you/we did check several times, you could immediately get that “PhD in bs” if you specialize in “bulshit about Esperanto” because of that long list of [false!] facts about esperanto you mainly have.
Your last comment, I have replied to though, was quite childish… you have not improved compared to your comment on July 21st (coming from you,it was quite spectacular and quite lies/bs free)
Still the demagogue.
Alejandro just replied with a “still the demagogue” because he lacks arguments/more real facts (false facts… he has plenty) about Esperanto, and he can just reply with a personal attack, ad hominem, so, to make that clearer: “attacking the person making the argument, rather than the argument itself, when the attack on the person is completely irrelevant to the argument the person is making.” (Alejandro, you should read about fallacies to avoid them, like your constant ad popolum fallacy when you showed me huge figures about English I already was aware of, as if it were by itself a proof of English superiority over anything else)
A demagogue is: “a person, especially an orator or political leader, who gains power and popularity by arousing the emotions, passions, and prejudices of the people.” Alejandro, at least when speaking about Esperanto, a subject he virtually ignores compared to me (and proved here so many times)… he seems to have emotions, passions and prejudices against the Esperanto language, and I suppose that’s why he states so many false facts (even about his personal life like the languages he currently speaks) or, let’s call them, prejudices he will never check up before speaking them up (yeah, it’s better to let people believe in those false facts you wrote without sources, and hope Alex or any one else [who usually can speak Esperanto and therefore usually knows more about this topic] won’t reply [Alejandro says “attack me”), contrasting his “facts” with reality out there… and for free.)
tags: #alejandro, #fallacies, #personal, #attack, #adhominem
Tags: Sorry I don’t Twit or whatever.
You agreed with the facts I presented, then you went ahead and tried to discredit those facts with a bunch of assumptions, belief and predictions. Sorry I do not have a crystal ball nor I claim to be qualified to predict the future. What is true today generally is different in the future. Which way it is going to go is anybody’s guess.
Today’s facts are today’s facts; tomorrow is another day. Let’s wait and see what will be the facts then. But what you say today is definitely not a fact tomorrow.
I am just talking about today’s facts. This is what I said:
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/should-english-be-the-only-official-language-of-the-eu/#comment-303891
Me: “There are over one billion English speakers in the World, there are less than three million Esperanto speakers.”
You: “You are quite right, there is a really huge difference right now, as with French VS English 100 years ago or Latin Vs English 400 years ago (but not bad for such a dead language without nation/power/former imperium behind.”
I made no claims other than for the present time. Past facts may or may not influence today’s facts and today’s may or may not influence tomorrow’s, but today’s facts are today’s facts regardless. Was I lying? And yes, figures change with time so when there are more Esperanto speakers than English speakers let me know. Also, are you uncomfortable the estimates I used, will 900 million English speakers and four million Esperanto speaker make you feel any better? Go ahead, knock yourself out.
Me: “English is the de facto World language of commerce…”
You: “For you first sentence: you are absolutely right.” “I will ignore that second sentence a furious child would write because it brings nothing real to this discussion (please, try to avoid that).” Isn’t that avoiding to face reality? Where and when is Esperanto spoken in the normal course of any day to day commerce, trade, scientific, etc. activity or documents? Smart child, am I not?
Me: “Those who learn English can, and do, get an immediate benefit. It is not even sure that those who learn Esperanto will ever get anything in return.”
You: “Right, they get benefits (but both English AND Esperanto learners), currently more in English than in Esperanto (although according to experiments like the current Springboard to languages Esperanto is a smart investment to learn foreign language faster than without that investment).” So what are you saying? That the (only?) benefit Esperanto learners get is that it will be easier for them to learn English. I agree that is definitely a great benefit. I am simply more inclined to cut out the middle man. Sorry for the misunderstanding but I was referring to economic benefits. If you say that any person will be better off speaking two languages, even though the second one is Esperanto, I will agree with you. I just said they will not get a lot of practical benefits from it.
You: “The more English (or Esperanto) they know, the more benefits… “for example in China or Spain can’t hold a conversation in English after all that time/taxes/money/efforts spent.” Well there you go again calling Spaniards and Chinese stupid. You did it and did it, are we smarter? I do not really think so.
You: “compared to Esperanto any ethnic language is unnecessarily difficult for an international role…” Then again Esperanto is not used in International communications. English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese and others are used in international communications, Esperanto? Not so much.
Let’s say that Esperanto is easier, but it is undeniable that it also has shortcomings, or are you saying that it is perfect? There are many defectors from Esperanto for lack of opportunities of practicing and of getting actual benefits after the effort of learning. I am not going to say they are more than in English, but then again there are so many more English learners.
Me: “There are more than three million new students of English in the World a year. (There are more than three million of students just in China). There are only a few hundreds, or being magnanimous a few thousands, of new Esperanto students a year.”
You “Right for English, wrong (as usually, you should avoid speaking about Esperanto without facts/stats to prove what you say).” Ok, let’s say I underestimated the amount of Esperanto learners. Still, for Esperanto to reach 1 billion speakers in 100 years 10 million have to graduate every year. How is it (Esperanto) going to do it? I do not know. With almost no infrastructure.
You: “You like figures,” (me: yes, I do, numbers do not lie) “I don’t care (that much) because they will always change (and I hope they will increase for Esperanto and decrease” (for English?). Well you should care. You are so right; figures do change, but neither you nor I know in what direction they will go. The only thing we can do is study previous trends and try to predict what they are going to be in the future based on that trend. But predicting is a tricky business, more often wrong than right.
“What if I tell you from June 2015 to June 2016 up to 400.000 people registered in the Esperanto course (in English) just on Duolingo?” That do not say much, I have been a Duolingo registered user for more than three years and like me many people register but do not use it in a regular basis. Besides, how many people have actually learned any language to any level of proficiency with Duolingo? And regarding the rest of the analysis, why don’t you enlighten us with a similar analysis for English? Compare the two, reach conclusion.
You: “Grown-ups love figures…” Because they do not delude themselves with wishful thinking. Now, who is being childish?
You: “Yes, those are/were facts…” Only ‘are’ I made no claims about past situations.
You: “It has never been easy to change facts for the better…” No it hasn’t, but we (humans) do it constantly, although not as frequently as we want to believe or should do it? Of course you should continue doing your best to get the outcome you want, so do I.
Me: “Now you go ahead and say that is not true. It does not matter; facts do not change because you call them something else.”
You: “ Most of these are true. Congrats. But remember:
«A fact is not good just because it is a fact.»” Why else will it good? A fact is just a fact; it is not good or bad. How people interpret and use them may be good or bad.
You too have a great day. And you are welcome. You definitely have more time than I do. Wish you luck with your Messianic work. I hope your predictions turn out to be true.
“You agreed with the facts I presented, then you went ahead and tried to discredit those facts with a bunch of assumptions, belief and predictions”
>> Sorry to have in my head different possible futures/alternatives, and wish and act to try making possible the one I consider best. If you can’t stand my hopes/wishes/decisions, then you can go fly a kite. I can stand your hope that the world will keep on with English or will use Chinese, or any other big language, I don’t share it, but i can stand it.
“Today’s facts are today’s facts; tomorrow is another day. Let’s wait and see what will be the facts then. But what you say today is definitely not a fact tomorrow.”
>> Ok, difference between you and me: I can go some steps back to see the whole picture and have some predictions in mind, you can just see present facts as you just insist on that. You will just wait, but don’t say “let wait”, let me act now to have the world I wish, don’t ask me to wait doing nothing to change this [stupid in my opinion] trend using the language of the everchanging mightiest country as a bridge language. Will you let me do other things you won’t do? Do I have your permission?
“I am just talking about today’s facts. This is what I said: […]”
>> Yes, I know, you talk about today’s facts (selected facts that are great for ad populum fallacies) and you mixed them with some lies about Esperanto, as usually.
“Was I lying?”
> no, for that point you were not lying, read again: I agreed with you, I said “you are quite right” just because the estimate might be wrong (just because that kind of estimates are often ambiguous, for Esperanto and for English [and many languages]). I am not uncomfortable with the estimates you used, and increasing or decreasing them won’t “make [me] feel any better”, i said I don’t care that much about estimates (and that does not mean I don’t know about the huge difference between nº of Esperanto speakers VS nº of English speakers, it’s just that that difference won’t make me change what I want and what I consider better for the world).
“Isn’t that avoiding to face reality?” no, it’s avoiding your childish sentence full of emotions: you said “Nobody uses Esperanto for anything except to talk to other Esperantists” did you want me to say… “Bravo!!! Did you know Nobody uses English except to talk to other English speakers”?? the second sentence, childish too, is a “hasty generalization fallacy”: you saw some Esperanto speakers here complaining about the usage of English used as a bridge language (many, read again, many, not all of us, MA-NY esperantist hate OR don’t like this usage, because of many different reasons all of those MA-NY have: it’s unfair, too difficult, too frustrating, resource-consuming, undemocratic, short-term based, etc [because, yes, we can compare it now with something we consider better from our proofs/knowledge, beliefs and/or experience]) other esperantists can stand what English is doing in the international field and do not complain about English, just enjoy Esperanto (traveling, reading, speaking with friends, speaking to his parents, etc) with no activism or sentences they said/wrote about English as a bridge language.
This is another question you didn’t mentioned that last time: “Where and when is Esperanto spoken in the normal course of any day to day commerce, trade, scientific, etc. activity or documents?” Ask to Esperanto associations/individuals with that kind activity/documents: Commerce/Trade > IKEF; Science: Akademio Internacia de la Sciencoj San Marino (or other associations). By the way, what were you trying to prove with this?? That we still don’t have that much activity/documents as English and other big languages [or languages with a country] have?
“So what are you saying?” “I was referring to economic benefits”. Ok, if practical for you is just money I can give you some example of economic benefits that according to your lie (because you check nothing at all, smart boy) do not exist in Esperanto:
-saving money (yes, economic benefits is not just getting money, but saving too) because for example I visited Budapest and lived there for 3 weeks at the house of hungarian Esperanto friend. Or Vienna, because when I was there starting my Erasmus, I could not live in the flat i rented because a reform wasn’t finished yet, so Attila (another Esperanto speaker), which I knew a little from Facebook, told me I could stay at his hourse (later he told me he spoke with his boss and I was going to life at his boss’ house/office, which had an extra room because he only had a couch)
-Getting money (in Esperanto, you can exchange a product for money, I wonder why you didn’t think about that before saying there were no benefits at all… later specified… economical benefits): When I was back in Spain, Attila emailed me several times to contact people in Spain, get official papers in Spanish from companies, scan them and send them to him by email and mail.
>That was a part of my economically benefitial experience using Esperanto… I know there are italian people that trade wine with Chinese people in Esperanto, or Esperanto companies like this one, with esperantist workers (Esperanto=intern working language) and do proyects for Esperanto speakers, states or institutions such as UE about language teaching/info
“there you go again calling Spaniards and Chinese stupid.”
> Again, you are being childish. I just showed you a fact, 80% of Spaniards can’t hold a conversation, because they did not learn English at all or well enough. It’s not they are stupid. Please, smart boy, learn to make that difference.
You write to much, but you think/check very little.
I can’t waste my time for this smart boy called Alejandro who lies so often (unless he pays me every time I show objectively an incorrect fact or a lie. Let’s say 30USD for every lie he says… and I’m willing to pay that amount if he proves I said any lie/incorrect fact). So, since I know he will pay nothing and we’ll keep on lying about Esperanto, I’ll take the advise i gave Seán, and I’ll just ignore him. I won’t answer his “questions” (it’s time for him to grow-up and find answers on his own, if he ever wanted an answer to his questions) and maybe from time to time, if it happens i read one of his comment, or just the beginning and i spot many lies told to someone else that will get on my nerves, I will reply to the other one, showing a link to the following comment warning people this way “Alejandro does not speak Esperanto and has too many times proved when talking about Esperanto he is childish, wrong, and has no shame telling lies or using fallacies to discredit the language itself, their speakers or anything good that could be related with this language. If you want to read some contrasted lies from him, here’s the link: https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/should-english-be-the-only-official-language-of-the-eu/#comment-303861 Please, don’t feed the troll. If you found any lie, just ignore him or he’ll try to waste your time ad infinitum if he wishes to”.
So bye, Alejandro, wish you well growing up in debates Esperanto is somehow mentioned. Just a piece of advise you probably will never take: If you rely want to find flaws for Esperanto as a bridge language, the best way might be learning it till you are fluent to speak it well with Esperanto speakers and read stuff in Esperanto to try to discredit arguments for Esperanto.
find tags for me or anyone who wants to get rid of him (from time to time he is able to speak with some arguments, and just one so use hat automatic reply when you see any lie and you just want to ignore him): #automatic #reply #lies #link #alejandro
As I said before, you have a lot more time than I do.
Wish you luck with your aspirations, you have your work cut out for you.
Fatal Words
Communication Clashes and Aircraft Crashes
Fatal Words
Steven Cushing
176 pages | 18 line drawings | 5-1/2 x 8-1/2 | © 1994
On March 27, 1977, 583 people died when KLM and Pan Am 747s collided on a crowded, foggy runway in Tenerife, the Canary Islands. The cause, a miscommunication between the pilot and the air traffic controller. The pilot radioed, “We are now at takeoff,” meaning that the plane was lifting off, but… Read More (…)
Good luck to that handful of people who will teach Esperanto to the whole of Europe (est 500M people) :D
Esperanto tiel facilas, ke oni sen instruisto lernos. Mi tion faris.
Bela ekzemplo de oficiala propagando por la angla :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_politics/6277747.stm
Alejandro Carlos nenion inventis ;-)
Hi Henry, fortunately I did not. And those may be Mr. Brown’s words but not everyone agrees with him, not even in England.
I do not blame the language for the bad deeds of the people that speak it. All major languages have also been used for imperialistic expansion, some more forcefully than others, from French, Spanish and German (and most other European languages) to Chinese and Japanese. It is the people not the language.
And this is 1st part, subpart B (I’ll try to post the final part of subpart B, for Alejandro’s comment on 21th July. I already tried 6 times to post this subpart B completely, but I couldn’t :( )
“English is the de facto World language of commerce, trade, finance, science and communication. Nobody uses Esperanto for anything except to talk to other Esperantists and complain that the hated Imperial English language is used instead of their venerated Esperanto.”
For you first sentence: you are absolutely right. I had that argument in mind when I first met Esperanto and finally that day I decided to give Esperanto a try after pondering on that (and many other stuff that came to my mind).
I will ignore that childish second sentence which brings nothing to this discussion (please, try to avoid that). I show you a fragment from this article (almost your argument plus reply)
“Grin’s Report
In 2005 François Grin wrote Foreign language teaching as public policy, answering a request by the Haut conseil de l’éducation.[3] This document attempts to answer the following questions: “What foreign languages ought to be taught, for what reasons, and considering what context?”[4] It considers the economic costs of language policies, as well as their cultural and policy implications. It examines three scenarios: the choice of a single natural language, the choice of three natural languages and the choice of a constructed language, Esperanto.
This report has not resulted in real changes in the language policy of any State.
The report suggests that use of English gives unfair redistribution to Anglophones. A set of three, e.g. French, German and English, would reduce inequalities among speakers, but still impose a burden on those whose first language is not among those chosen. A further problem is the choice of languages for the trio (and the criteria for choosing them).
The report argues that adoption of Esperanto would save the UE 25 billion euros a year.[4] Grin suggests that adoption of Esperanto as a working language is unlikely given prejudices against the language, but that such a move may be achieved in the long term.[3]
Economists Adriana Vintean and Ovidiu Matiu suggested in 2008 that adoption of Esperanto would likely lead to large savings for Europe, but that teaching Esperanto would be a major expense for poorer EU nations such as Romania or Bulgaria.[5]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Grin
Compare to what? Current situation with a bunch of official languages?
And how much is going to be saved by adopting English (or any other language)? Without a similar study for English (and any other language that may be considered as well) it is just a biased comment. Not very useful.
“It is in the general interest of the United States to encourage the development of a world in which the fault lines separating nations are bridged by shared interests. And it is in the economic and political interests of the United States to ensure that if the world is moving toward a common language, it be English; that if the world is moving toward common telecommunications, safety, and quality standards, they be American; that if the world is becoming linked by television, radio, and music, the programming be American; and that if common values are being developed, they be values with which Americans are comfortable.”
David Rothkopf, “In Praise of Cultural Imperialism?”, Foreign Policy, Numero 107, Somero 1997, pp. 38-53
So? The same can be said in relation to any other country/language. And many other countries have followed the same principles. That goes with the territory. That is, each country is entitled to think the same way. Those are governments positions; the language has no saying it that. If the US spoke a different language, then everything else would have been the same except the language mentioned.
Additionally, a people’s culture may be rooted in the past but it is a “living” thing, meaning that it evolves and changes with time and the influences of other cultures, new developments and changing perceptions. Otherwise we will still be in the Paleolithic, hunting with spears and arrows. Furthermore, people do, watch, listen to and adopt the things they like and consider good, even when in occasions they are not so good as they think. Nobody forces them. I never watch horror movies, I do not see the point, for example, but like science fiction ones. My wife does not like science fiction movies because they deal with something that is not real. We grew up in the same country, speak the same language and have the same cultural background, we think very differently, though, despite having lived together almost forty years. She likes to read about celebrities and royalty gossip, I detest the very idea.
Besides, if you look at human development, it is unavoidably pointing to One World, One People, One Language (although not any time soon). There is no other way to last. I am not saying that it “have to be” English. I am not saying the it “could not be” Esperanto, or any other language. I am just saying that based on the World situation today it will be easier to accomplish the “One Language: portion with English. But other people may think differently and of course I don’t have a crystal ball to see the future and say with confidence that it “will be” English. I am Ok with whatever the people choose to do.
The dictature of English :
“The report proclaims that the Center has a monopoly of language, culture and expertise, and should not tolerate resistance to the rule of English.”
Robert Phillipson — “Linguistic Imperialism”, Oxford University Press, 1992.
So, Alejandro Carlos, do you know how do they manage not-having an official languaje? how do you pay taxes, or how does a policeman adresses to you? which are your rights and duties if you are an US citizen, but you do not speak english?
Liberalism, dominant in anglo-saxon world, is the example to learn from. Socialism pretends to help The People, but Liberalism allows each person to take care of him/herself, or the Community (as an addition of individuals) to act for one of its members.
And, yes, we have a lot to learn from a country that has passed in 240 years from underdeveloped country to world power, and in -say- 200 years from racism to freedom of…basically…anything. And we did, for a while. That is how the deeply Liberal European Communities were born.
We in Europe have thousands of years of History and our more egregious, recent, independent developments, have been Communism, Fascism, and Nazism. With it´s associated social and economical collapses.
Nothing to be proud of.
Hi all! Check out our latest debate, “Will English remain the de facto EU official language?”
https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2016/07/28/eu-keep-english-official-working-language
First speech entirely in Esperanto by a European Commissioner, by Vytenis Andriukaitis in Nitra, Slovakia, on 28 July 2016.
http://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019/andriukaitis/announcements/international-language-policy-conference-perspectives-language-communication-eu-nitra-slovakia-28_en
I,am from sweden and a swedish citizen and use the english language every day on all electronic devices, include windows and mac operating systems, iphone,ipad and more. Everything i do privately is in english both write whatever that is and speak it for my self english in my home when necessary and always. Always write english on my electronic devices sush as pc,mac iphone ipad and more by hand. All my electronic devices is set to english not swedish or any other language. I have left the swedish language completely aside and behind and almost never develop the swedish language anymore. Use the english language completely in my home whatever that is and always, except to talk in swedish to swedish citizens and a forced to visit some websites where english is not available, this has nothing to do that i don,t understand english, some local websites from sweden is not available in english, i,am therefore whatever i like it or not forced to use the swedish language, but only sometimes when necessary, and there is no workaround on that. Around 80% off all websites i visit everyday is in english. I will never go back to the swedish language any longer even if it is my mother language. Out in public, i speak english so far i can with it, except to sweden citizens as long as they have not give their permission to speak english with me even if we both understand swedish completely to each other. I mostly speak english to foreigners.
Hello Oscar,
Excellent, lets all speak one language. People are shocked once they realize how much information they gain access to with English. You can watch the latest shows ,actually understand what the song mean on the radio, get to know different cultures, find job much easier etc etc.
Since you are so keen on living in an all-English speaking world, you should consider moving to a place where it is the language of daily discourse. Then you need some work on acquiring correct usage. After just a few sentences it is obvious to the native speaker that you are not a native speaker. It is too bad that you seen to have such disdain for Swedish, which is a beautiful language.
I speak several languages and do not disdain one for another – just as I like to eat different foods, listen to different genres of music and vacation in different places. It is the variety of life that is the true spice. Here in the USA we have an English-Only movement whose members often speak and written very incorrect American English. They tend to be morons.
Hi Kvasnak. It is really amusing to see how you are always telling people you have a Doctorate in English Education and go about criticizing those who are learning the language for their bad usage of the language, arising from not being native speakers. As if being a native speaker makes a person an expert in the language. Nothing further from the true. And then you just go ahead and make very silly mistakes that an English teacher with so many years of experience will never make (being such an expert and a native speaker. Like when you write: “It is too bad that you seen (past participle of verb see = notice with your eyes) to have such disdain for Swedish.” I should have said “seem” = apear to be. Or: “English-Only movement whose members often speak and written very incorrect American English.” It should be “speak and write.” I am sure the readers will reach their own conclusion about who the moron is.
“Let’s He who is free of sin cast the first stone.”
Tiel vi mortigos la svedan lingvon…..
Dear Robb
Just imagine a place where all states speak different languages. For example if you go from Nevada to New York you cant communicate with the locals. Unless we all learn the 28 language we will always be divided.
I always read books in english, sometimes on swedish if i can,t find it on english. When i was young, let say more of an child, i couldn’t see the difference between the english and the swedish language because of my autism and asberger syndrom. When i read books in the english language, i understand almost everything, but have also big problems to translate between them english to swedish and swedish to english. In addition to swedish, deep my mind and deep in my soul, my brain handle the english and the swedish language as two separate languages even if swedish is my mother language, and this is true and sounds like magic but much english, whatever that is write,read and talk, i understand much of it only on english, cannot therefore translate it to swedish and this is true. Have big difficulties to translate from swedish to english. My problems my disability causes, causes my brain to handle them as two separate languages whatever i want and not. Swedish is my mother language, except english as an foreign language. In my home i read the book ultramarines and other books completely in english, i only understand it much only on english and cannot translate it to swedish and this is actually true, my brain cannot determine for exp in this case that the english and the swedish language and so on can be the same things in just an language.
I understand if anyone won’t read of what i have written above and this sounds strange for everybody and i respect that. As above, but this is the true fact that lies on my table. My brain handle english and swedish as most of the time as two separate languages from each other
both word and sentens, which mean i have big difficulties to translate between them, this is wonderfule and magic. I can only translate some words between the languages, not sentens. Here is an exp of words i only understand on english not swedish. Access Access denied, Permission with answer yes or no. Darkness,. Words and sentens i ONLY understand on the english language might be unlimited so far, except for swedish as separate language from my english as an foreign language. Other word heavens is himmelen on swedish for exp. If anyone told me of what word access is on swedish, i might be able to understand it. But since i only understand for exp the word access on english, not swedish. I will only understand of what function the word access means only on english, not swedish As above, some words can only be understood as they are, there is no explanation of what the word or maybe sentens means in this case. Deep in my mind and deep in my soul i understand, most of the time english as a separate language from swedish and overtime both words end sentens only on english, not swedish if anyone not told of what just that word or sentens means in swedish. As a jackpott,
i have all conditions on the english language. Both grammatic,verb,adjective,speak,write and read and so on. I have experimented and test my self on the english language for over 10 years and here is the conclusion. By most of the time, i have no problems in the english language at all. All english i have grown up with does not come from school, boarding schools, otherwise high school. It comes from vacations overseas from mediterranean, i have make 19 journeys all over mediterranean from the beginning of the 90’s decade and latest from 2011. Most of vacations was spent in turkey. Movies,Music,Computer,Games,Tv and so on. I have listen to music my hole life only in the english language. I have never listen to swedish music who sing solo in the swedish language. I disdain the swedish language privately as much as i can. In my private home i use the english language as mandatory everywhere whatever that is and read,write and sometimes speak it for my self when necessary. I never use the swedish language anymore, except to talk to swedish citizens, otherwise if they have not give their permission to talk english with me. I might use the swedish language only when there is no other alternative, to use english language for other purposes. I even disdain swedish tv,radio,paper news and other things on swedish. I have watch bbc world news both morning and evening for the past 10 years and will continue to do so, even if i’am a completely swedish citizen. Whatever people move internationally today they are not forced to adapt to culture,traditions and most of all an countrie mother language anymore as it often was back in the past. People can use english everywhere today, there is almost no limitations of how they can use the english language. I’am a perfect speaker with other in english!!. Sincerely: Oscar Nygren
.
Irrelevant question as it is the de-facto official language of the EU.
Interessting question. Centuries ago, the main language in Europe used to be French, now it is English because of London’s and Washington’s influence over Europe since centuries now. However, English is the standard international language and here might be the next question: Do we want to have the international language as a standard language in EU? I, however, don’t think that English would unite us as it is stated, because it’s not an EU-thing. In this case I entirely agree with Androulla Vassiliou. To provide support in understanding each other through English is something EU must do. But to assimilate Nations through a standard EU-Language might have yet too big consequences in the end – and for sure it shouldn’t be English.
English is kinda the unofficial language of the world. Deal with it. It’s a great language.
Not any more
By the time that UK is out from the EU,
Will English remain the official language for the EU?
Don’t make much difference.
I just let you know that in the USA, the Spanish is the second official language.
Greek. From elite universities to schools all over the continent.
No.
Officially No.
Practically it’s the only way.
YES
Nepaleese should be.
Wouldn’t this be a bit ridiculous post-Brexit?
NO !
No. Thatcher is dead and also the “all English”. The good solution is Esperanto. It is ten times easier and much more fair.
No, because Europe is about diversity, not monopoly.
NO NEVER – BREXIT is EXIT.
Yes!
Yes it is the official business language no matter bexit or not …
English can play the same role as it plays today. Can remain the common language, but can not be the ultimate official language at all! There are many nations in EU, and their languages should stay official too.
You and the rest who says no obviously have not faced the consequences of multiple languages within the same territory. For example you worked in a state then you relocate to another state. All your official and non official documents will be written in the state’s language which cannot be submitted straight away, you will need to have it translated which cost money , time and effort.
Another example, you are a business man and dealing and you manufacture your goods, you want to sell but the market is very small in your state after you take away not targeted consumers. The market quickly opens up to you once communication is established between states.
There is numerous advantages of having one common language
Brexit means that English should not been used anymore as a major official language of the EU, unless we admit its true nature:
EU is an organisation of vassal states controlled by “The Empire” (Wall Street + City of London)…
#Bilderberg
We could become leaders in automatic translation artificial intelligence + learn a wide variety of languages…
It will save us money… Most of us speak it as a second language anyway… Away with chauvinism and nationalism.. In with rational choices… Instead of translating all documents in 27 languages in EU institutions, just compose it in just one… aka less bureaucracy and paperwork and people to pay fat salaries in Brussels… Each state retains its own language, so when you move around for work or studies, you will still need to learn languages.. Multilingualism should be kept and promoted in schools, as multilingual young individuals are needed and will in the future become a commodity for our continent.
English should be actually banned from Europe now more than ever. And teach Esperanto. Also English is a complicated language written and spoken differently (pretty much like learning 2 languages), with more exceptions than rules. Not efficient at all. Just happened to be lately the international language for touristic areas and for multinational business. That’s all.
Honestly, the proposal is kind of absurd.
Mi tute konsentas. Esperanto estas la plej facila lingvo en la tuta mondo. Afrikaj esperantoparolantoj estas junaj kaj pli kaj pli multnombraj. “La nepoj vin benos…”. English is just the language of the elite.
Yes, I agree English should be official language…it’s the only one everybody speaks it around the world, not only in EU. As a Dutch person when I go to Africa I speak English, in Bulgaria I speak English, in Barcelona the same…this is quite a silly question. Nobody speaks Czeck or Hungarian or Greek…let’s not be silly, if we want to have an EU, we need one common language!
Gina Spur, you certainly travell from town to town. I live in France on the country and nobody speak English, which is the language of the elite. Unfair, difficult, carries the way of life of the USA or UK, we need time and money to speak it fluently … Do we all want to think like english native speakers ?
Jounique, Why do you write here in english than? if you dont like the EU vote for Frexit! Nobody keeps France in the EU by force…but the truth is that majority of French want to be in the EU…that means we all should understand each other…the EU people majority speak English..US and UK is not even in EU any more…Soon we will have the united states of Europe, as it should…I can’t belive we didnt have it already…we have some problems now with the illegal migrants from midle east and africa..so that sucks, but if we overcome that, english and an European army will be next. Than full fledged UNITED STATES OF EUROPE!
Gina
1) learn more English… the question is should English be THE ONLY official language of the EU, it is not “should En be (an) official language” as you replied here.
2) Why did she write in English? well, maybe you don’t want to hear the obvious… but this website is only in English, English is currently (before it was French, and before that Latin, maybe later Chinese) the most spoken language just because the USA is the most powerful country since the second WW… and because you, me and Jouanique were forced (we didn’t chose, we didn’t had info nor the option to chose Esperanto first) to misstudy English for many many years (school, university, home, abroad) spending a lot of money and efforts for bad results (if you ever tried to learn some Esperanto, you would see it only needs a fraction of what you needed to reach your actual English level… you are Dutch, you should have had an easier time learning English than French/Spanish/Chinese people just because Dutch isn’t that big, so you are more colonized by English, it is linguistically way closer to English, you live very close to the UK, etc )
By the way, you can read several messages in several languages, among them you’ll find Esperanto messages like Jouanique’s here https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/12/09/should-english-be-the-only-official-language-of-the-eu/#comment-314288
3) think with your head, not with your emotions: the fact she wrote in English and she prefers (she has experience using both languages, you don’t have that experience at all, so I understand why you chose English over Esperanto and why you’d like to force 95% of the world to struggle learning English and consume English culture, being almost always in an inferior equality level in front of perfect speakers called “English natives” who virtually did not spent a single penny to learn languages, to make that extra (HUGE) struggle to learn other’s language). You could also think with your heart, being more empathic, feeling the suffer of 95% of the world who currently should be learning English to improve in life, people who in a majority won’t be able to speak English (after all that time/money/efforts)
4) I’m sure Jouanique does not want Frexit, she just want the EU to be fair, not an unfair USA EU or Englipean Union as you’d like. Of course, you’ll find many people who will become willing to abandon the EU if the continues treating its citizens with different standards (English speakers are privileged over speakers/students of other languages) and if it intensifies that inquality (changing from a less than more multilingual EU that it is now, to an only-English EU, banning more than 55% of the EU to info/access to the EU services/institutions)
5) Wow… you call refugees from a specific cultural area “illegal migrants”, you want the EU to be only-English (of course, Dutch is dying, so it’s better to force English over others like markets did to you) to be really a US/UK UE (with guns too?), an army (who do you plan to bomb?)… OK, that much English culture has brainwhashed you… as many here who can’t even try Esperanto to compare and unstick that blindfold you’ve been put when you started understanding English and thinking the English way (in you case, from what i read, the worse English way that exist: forcing, rejecting all refugees, fighting)
6) I’m not going to ask for a Duxit, but I’d like you to move to the UK or USA so you can live your dream there and won’t vote for nazi-like policies and make this place a worse place. I don’t get why you’d be against of agreeing in using an auxlang (the best example is Esperanto) as a second language common language, which according to economist François Grin would save us a lot of money, time, efforts, unfair situations, monoculturality, language/cultural lost, native-importing, unbalance economy exchanges (you and me going only to the UK or USA to improve our English and contributing to their economy up to 1% of their GDP) etc. I think a child, without your apparent brainwashing, would make better decisions for the world than you would.
7) you did not answer to any of these points… Jouanique told you “Unfair, difficult, carries the way of life of the USA or UK, we need time and money to speak it fluently … Do we all want to think like english native speakers ?” and just replied with an argument-less “Why do you write here in english than? if you dont like the EU vote for Frexit!” and some blablabla (I love the USA/UK way of life and government, her I’ll say my “argumentum ad populum”, and here i’ll express my hate to migrants, etc)
You completly misundersttod me. I’m european ( half belgian, half french and I married an italian guy),. NO, you’re wrong, the EU people majority don’t speak English. I hope we’ll have the United states of Europ but like Churchill himself said, without the UK. An european army of course ! And Europ with a FAIR second language( that belongs to NOBODY) that ALL OF US CAN SPEAK FLUENTLY after a short time ! L’anglais, pas plus que le français n’a les caractéristiques nécessaires à une véritable langue internationale. Mon boulanger ou mon voisin paysan n’a pas le temps d’entretenir sonniveau d’anglais, à supposer (!) qu’il le parle couramment en sortant de l’école. Esperanto is much easier than any national language, so we don’t forget it so quickly. MI kore brakumas vin , Gina ! “I take you europeanfriendly in my arms !!!!)
Merci Alex, elkoran dankon, Alex, Danke schön, Alex, grazie, Alex, Obrigada, Alex!
Ĝis baldaŭ !
Jouanigue, I am not going to learn french and you are not going to learn Duch, how can we have an EU with a comon language? What is this Esperanto thing..? Dont we already speak here in English, Why are you so against UK and US? I really dont understand this hating of the USA, they are our closest ally…It is true that some midle eastern saudy culture has been creeping in EU…but that will be dealed with, everybody has been made aware of it since charlie ebdo…any way. English, comun Army or Eu will die! I am sorry you dont like it, but that esperanto thing is silly, no offense! Alex..you hate the USA and UK…I feel sorry for you, these are the most civilized countries in the world where EU citizens do business and spend a lot of vacation money!…Maybe you are one of these bitter illegals who hates the west…Well..we dont like you either…just for the record!
oh my god… Gina, what kind of education did you have?
Since when preferring Esperanto to English as a common language means Jouanique or me are against the UK and USA??? Are you serious? How old are you? Did you ever go to school? Who tought you to conclude such silly things?
Please, tell me where you read USA/UK are the most civilized countries in the world… you are so brainwhashed you can’t look for facts/studies and you make up whatever it takes to keep forcing English as the inefficient unfair bridge language it is right now. http://www.businessinsider.com/16-most-socially-advanced-countries-2015-4#1-norway-16
Do you know where they can get that huge amount of vacation money?? from you, me and Jouanique. They did not learn languages (no need to waste their money/time/efforts) and they take our money (culture, teachers, learning books, students that work/study there to improve their English level). How dare you argumenting that because the USA saved Europe from the nazis (did you ever hear of Soviet Union?) now the world/Europe should use English as the common language? are you serious?
Gina… stupid till the end of your comment. I was born, raised and still live in Madrid. I don’t hate the west, USA nor UK, but of course I’m not blind as you, I can see the actual intercommunication situation is silly, unfair, unbalanced, diversity-killing, just market-based, expensive, inefficient, just hardly works for short-medium term, etc. I can see Esperanto is much better than English for Europe and the world (because I have used/experienced English and Esperanto as bridge languages I have studied and l speak fluently).
I’m sorry, you don’t know anything about Esperanto, you’ve been living your whole life in a wheel (just inefficiently using English with other frogs there that learn English), while I jumped out of that wheel 6 years ago and discovered a better world (learning and using Esperanto), a better world a lot of people in that wheel you’d like for eternity are missing (from time to time I pay you a visit, like here, and I speak in English/French/German/Mandarin or in my native Spanish with them).
People who expressed any US and UK views in this post I want you to remember who saved all of us in the second world war! I am very disappointed in you!
People who expressed Anti US and UK views in this post I want you to remember who saved all of us in the second world war! I am very disappointed in you!
You´re such a bore referring to the Second World War, which should be capitalised by the way. Since you have elected to have recourse to that global conflict, do remember that there were many Czechs, Poles, French et al. who helped Britain. People have the right to criticise the US and the UK, should they wish to do so. The UK, in particular England has become a vile, xenophobic country since the result of the referendum on 23 June.
Gina – yes, I agree, if you are going to use one of the Englishes to write here, you should learn one of them better. At times I find it hard to understand what you are saying – though I can tell that you indeed have spent a lot of time and energy studying one of the English variants.
Secondly, I would like to say that I am an American and I teach American to refugees and immigrants so that they can work, live, and be happy here in Florida. I, for my part, am studying Spanish since it is the most widely spoken language in parts of our region. My Spanish is about as good as your English at this point.
I am not anti-US – though I am thoroughly ashamed that about 40% of my fellow country-people endorse Trump. I must admit that I am not very pro UK – a country which really did not do that much during WWII and would not have been on the victorious side if it had not been for the USA. I have visited that country and was insulted and hurt by the way they viewed my language – but I do not profess to speak the way the Brits do and I have no reason to acquire it, since nobody here speaks that way. Our local language is adapted to our way of life – but it would not be suited to international communications because it is full of colloquial expressions.
My husband and I have acquired Esperanto (he is Brazilian and though I was born in the US, I grew up first speaking German) which is more or less our home language. Esperanto is not silly. To state that is hurtful and insulting. It is bullying and it is the type of bullying that nationalists have used since Esperanto’s inception to prevent a logical and objective discussion on the usefulness of Esperanto in international communications.
Language is, despite what some say, truly intertwined with culture. Certainly, you do not want to see Anglo-Saxon culture adopted as the mainstream culture throughout Europe. But British and American carry with them their respective cultures. They are cultures in which Calvinism prevails – cultures that set a premium on legal violence (police, state coercion, assimilation, mono-culturalism, etc. – see “Robin Hood”.)
When we were in Bruxelles last year for five days, the Belgians took it upon themselves to “correct” our “English” when we asked questions. I speak fluent French and sometimes they refused to use French to answer me. They answered in what I would call Belngish but told us how to speak!!!!! I was furious because I speak American since I was 5 years old and my husband was insulted since he wrote his dissertation in American English.
Since national languages come with so many prejudices and politics, I propose that another solution be sought – and for me, Esperanto hits the spot. For others, there may be a better solution (globish, anyone?)
Just my two cents’ worth. Let as agree to disagree.
1. We all need one common language, since majority of the world uses English already…for what ever reason, let’s stick with it!
2. Grammar is not important, nobody expects me to speack perfect English since is not my native language..so people chil out..relax.
3. If EU population wants it, and only in that case, to have an united states of Europe, than it makes logical sense to choose English as the only official language. Official means: documents, transporation, court, hospitals school…Ofcourse Countries like Hungary could keep hungarian as second official language on thier teritory like evry other 20 something countries that have thier native laguage now. But english would need to be Number 1. No esperanto ..no spanis, ni chineese, and Obviously for hitler reasons ..no German.
4. USA saved Europe from Nazzism..fact. Thank you USA for that. I am ashemed of my ungrateful EU colleagues who disparedge Americans when they come over here. Regular day amaricans have nothing to do with the imperialist foreign policy US Gov has been conducted since USSR fall.
5. USA and EU are the most civilized and nice places to spend vacation and do business, travel for retirement or health reasons or what ever, every other places in the world are less. So let’s engouradge travel and tourism, it’s goot for everyone to get along. Ofcourse if you adress me in Esperanto I will ignore you! Why..cause Esperanto is just silly!
People who speak esperanto look at statistics on the internet, majority speak English, why would we put extra effort to speak another language since everywhere you go in the world you can say “Hello, how are you” and you will be able to deal with your business there? There is absolutely no place on earth that does not speak English, even the Chinese and Russians do! Why? Cause they all want to come travel to US and EU. Why ..cause we are amazing!FACT!
So come on and travel in my country in the middle of France ! You’ll meet some people IN TOWNS who are able to help you to the station or translate the restaurant menu, others will speak English a little more fluently and it’s the same in many countries round over the world ! Just the elite speaks English and, of course, doesn’t want Esperanto as the international language. Too easy, those people don’t want that farmers, factory workers aso speak as well as they do an international language. Ils veulent garder leurs privilèges. Dictators were and certainly are against Esperanto too.
English the only offcial language in United States of Europe. You want esperanto, fine, have it as unofficial…you can speak it with your non-elite hippies. There is nothing wrong to be elite..let’s not hate on the educated and hard working around the world! If you want to be a commoner fine, nobody is forcing you to get a law degree! Just dont have such expectations the elite to follow the commoners…is like the carriage ahead of the horse…how will that work? Come on…let’s use logic here please!
Gina, you seem to be somewhat lepenist – mmm – I personally like traveling in South America better than Europe and I would do just about anything to be able to travel to Eastern Asia. If I do get to China, Japan, and Korea I know that I will rely on Esperanto-speakers to show me around and maybe even house me. I know that with them each of us will have stepped forward to meet the other and that we both share the ‘interna ideo’ – the idea that all humans share in one big human culture and that no national culture supercedes that. It is a message of universal love of humanity and not a message of pure expediency and greed.
When we were in Rio we were met at the airport by a man who speaks Esperanto. He brought us safely to our hotel. The next morning another man who speaks Esperanto showed up to take us sightseeing. He took us to his favorite places so we got to see Rio like a native. That evening the local Esperanto club asked me to give a talk about education in the US and afterwards they threw a party for us. I have NEVER experienced that through English.
I have never heared of esperanto…it sounds like spanish to me…any way I am not interested to learn a new language…it’s a nightmare process especially for old people. Everybody speaks english…deal with it. You can be a hippie still and sing at the fire camp also, nobody will force you to become a shrude business person!
Gratulon Robb, but Gina doesn’t hear what we say, because she strong believes she is right. ” L’anglais détruit notre pensée” Claude Hagège. Do we all want to think like English native speakers ? No, I don’t ! For Gina, it isn’t important that the people who don’t study during a long time stay outside during the others “have fun” !! And you’re right, Robb ” Si vous voulez faire des affaires, apprenez l’anglais, si vous voulez vous faire des amis, apprenez l’espéranto !”.
“The English Advantage” — http://www.sat-amikaro.org/article600.html
“Why does an American Use Esperanto?”
http://literaturo.org/HARLOW-Don/Esperanto/brozovsky.html
> Gina Spur: “But english would need to be Number 1. No esperanto ..no spanis, ni chineese, and Obviously for hitler reasons ..no German.”
In that case, for Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Vietnam reasons… no English, otherwise you are being extremely hypocrite.
> Gina Spur: “Regular day amaricans have nothing to do with the imperialist foreign policy US Gov has been conducted since USSR fall.”
Also regular day Germans have nothing to do with the similar imperialist policy conducted by a lunatic such as Hitler. Your arguments are awfully immoral and disrespectful towards people, particularly to Germans.
Robert, UK did not bomb Hiroshima, Also Japan is not in the EU..so chill out. English is number 1. Germans will be the first to agree with it since they are fluent english speakers majority of them. The problem here is with the french who are very stubborn, als the spanish and Italians….they are also the weak links of the EU…not to mention the greeks, if I would have my say these people would be kicked out of the EU….but let’s have English and keep the lazy ones as well…Greeks comes to mind…any way…whoever doesn’t like it can get out! No country is forced to be in the EU or accept it’s Laws! Have you ever heard of Brexit?
@ Gina
Yes, indeed:
The problem here is with the French who are very stubborn, as the Spanish and Italians…
…and about 6 billions others who aren’t lucky enough to live near a US army camp, like Germans do.
Nobody prevents them to learn Esperanto and English in that order. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaedeutic_value_of_Esperanto)
The risk is that they will probably choose another language than English, one that is closer to their heart, but had no opportunity to learn, because English left them no time.
Warum einfach wenn es auch schwierig geht!
Combien de générations allons-nous encore faire souffrir inutilement?
Well, Gina Spur, you are the one insulting a whole language comparing it with Hitler, so don`t you chill-out me and calm down yourself. The fact you can see the absurdity of my statement, which is just an ironical rewording of yours, clearly shows your true colors, as does the rest of your xenophobic crap. I won’t even waste my time arguing with a person showing such ignorance about English fluency of non-English countries, especially if said person is full of contempt towards fellow EU country members.
Why are you talking about Germans and French and Greeks and other ‘lazy people’ and such? Fortunately enough we live in a civilised Europe where such prejudice is but junk. C’mon! You are losing the point. ‘Only official Language’ used by everyone in official situations… The real question is whether you can use your mother tongue or you must use another national language or a simple artificial one like Esperanto. Is there any other question in this debate?
http://egalite.hu/inf/arguen.htm or argude auf Deutsch, argufr en français, argueo en esperanto ktp ….. Gina Spur is “talking” to me about “low degree, hippies and so on …” when she wrote about Esperantospeakers ! Incredible ! Those who don’t know anything about this language should read those pages.
No time to loose with another useles language! The world has English! Deal with it!
No time to loose with you. Keep thinking that the world moves around you, I don’t care.
« Eppur si muove ! »
Remus, dont you see how silly you are? You have written here to me..in English! hahahahahah, Ridiculous! English has already won! Even the silly people who made this forum and posed the question know it. There is just a bitter jealousy on english coming from the french, spanish and germans, who during history had a chance to impose thier language arround the world. They failed, Brits succeed! Of course many of people you included are not fine with that…but the world has chosen English and there is nothing, absolutely nothing anyone can do about it! Hail English!
Nur atendu proksiman historion…..Genepoj de Gina lernos espranton.
Kaj, Gina ! se vi ne komprenos tion kion mi skribas ….nur lernu Esperanto dum 10 horoj…
Sorry Leleu, I don’t understand what you wrote here…do you speak English by any chance?
La ĝusta prononco de la angla estas tre malfacila por multaj popoloj, aparte por japanoj kaj koreanoj kaj eĉ por francoj, kvankam estas inter ambaŭ lingvoj grandaj similaĵoj laŭ skribo.
Ĉirkaŭ la jaro 2002, koreaj parencoj komencis turni sin al kirurgoj por operaciigi siajn infanojn je la lango. Tio konsistis el fortranĉo de la membrano, kiu troviĝas sub la lango : la frenulo (PIVa difino : “Refaldo, ordinare mukoza, kiu limigas la movojn de organo: langa, prepucia, klitora frenulo).
Tio fariĝis vera obsedo en Suda Koreio, tiel ke estis registara averto kontraŭ tiu praktiko :
“Some in S. Korea Opt for a Trim When English Trips the Tongue
Asia: Parents are turning to specialty preschool and even surgery to give their children a linguistic advantage.“
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/mar/31/news/mn-35590
“S. Koreans Accent Surgery in Bid for Flawless English
A government movie shows tongue snipping in an effort to halt the practice on children.“
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jan/18/news/adfg-tongue18
Tian obsedon ebligas nescio kaj neinformiteco pri la monda lingvopolitiko, kiujn volas trudi nacioj — ĉefe Usono kaj Anglio — ĉar ili ja scias, ke tio estas tre profitodona kaj avantaĝa por ili kaj handikapiga por ĉiuj aliaj nacioj :
“The real black gold from Britain was not the oil from the North Sea, but the English language. The challenge we face is to exploit fully.“ (Raporto 1987-1988 de la Ĝenerala Direktoro de la Brita Konsilio , p. 48)
Influa persono de la administracio Clinton klare skribis, jam en 1995, ke temas pri la intereso de Usono (pri la cetero de la mondo, Usono tute fajfas):
“It is in the general interest of the United States to encourage the development of a world in which the fault lines separating nations are bridged by shared interests. And it is in the economic and political interests of the United States to ensure that if the world is moving toward a common language, it be English; that if the world is moving toward common telecommunications, safety, and quality standards, they be American; that if the world is becoming linked by television, radio, and music, the programming be American; and that if common values are being developed, they be values with which Americans are comfortable.” (David Rothkopf)
Serĉo per “korean surgery english pronunciation” liveras kolekton da tiutemaj artikoloj. Ekz. en Daily Mail :
Children’s surgery to speak better English
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-108751/Childrens-surgery-speak-better-English.html
Tio plue okazas. Jen, ekzemple, artikolo de la jaro 2013 :
“South Korea: Tongue Operations for Better English Pronunciation“
http://saundz.com/south-korea-tongue-operations-for-better-english-pronunciation/
Pri tio oni ĝenerale silentas en la okcidentaj amasinformiloj. La kazo de la serioza kaj fama “Los Angeles Times” estas unu el la malmultaj esceptoj.
Sed estas ankoraŭ pli freneze : azianoj (ne nur koreanoj) pretas elspezi multe por plastika kirurgio, por laŭeble plej multe simili al eŭropanoj !!!
Gina estas interesa specimeno de politike nematura, eĉ analfabeta persono, ekzemplo de tiu frenezeco, kiu ebligas al nacio konstruiĝinta surbaze de malhonesteco kaj genocido — Usono — plue disrabi la mondon.
Dum la intertraktado okazinta en 1961 inter Britio kaj Usono, tiuj du landoj konsideris sin kiel “The Centre” (La Centro) kaj la cetero de la mondo kiel “The Periphery“ (La Periferio).
Se ni ne estas civitanoj de Usono aŭ Anglio (Skotlando estas survoje al disiĝo el Britio), ni ne forgesu ke ni ne indas je pli da atento, konsidero kaj respekto ol la nordamerikaj indianoj.
Sorry Henri, i don’t understand what you have said in this very very log lost…can you please use English? this is an English Question please be polite and ANSWER IN ENGLISH!…or do something else with your life!
@ Gina Spur
Don’t worry Gina. Consider the message as meant for those who did not have the opportunity, the time or the money to learn a foreign language. Stay secure in your tiny fantasy world full of flying pink elephants. Stay oblivious to all the bad stuff in the world and just pretend it doesn’t happen. Don’t worry, be happy. Oh, and if you wonder why women are still paid less than men, even in the same job, don’t worry, it’s just the way it is.
Learning a language is not a question of time or money. It’s mainly a question of interest. Almost any people can learn a language if they want to learn it. Many people spent more money and time in less useful things. I learned five without “losing” my precious time and money. I’m not rich. Now it’s easier than before thanks to the WWW. Learning a foreign language is also a question of education and respect for the country where you are moving to.
@robert Women are not paid less than men, I dont know where you live but in US and EU most of the private sector has a negotiated paid plan, each individual negotiates his or her pay. I am pretty sure I make more than you, not because gender, but because I am more interested in my financial well being, my great quality of life, and for that I have worked harder and smarter to aquire the skills neede in this market. My company needs my skills more than I need thier salary, which puts me in a position to ask for an arm and a leg at the negotiating table! many people do not understand this meritocracy system because they are liberals…also I think miss informed and unfair! I am not worried, I am happy! No need for me to learn esperanto just because a bunch of hippies hate the free market and western civilization.
Rene, I agree with you 100%. Nobody is preventing us from learning any language we want. for our private life and business we can do what we please. But it is also reality today that if you want a good job, a good standard of living, a happy life, and you are young and just starting out, it will be almost impossible to achieve it without a good education and English skills for communication. I know many people hate it, I am not saying …Love it! Hate it if you want, but this is the way English established itself in the world. As the number 1 language! Everybody uses it for: Business, travel. art. literature, music, even medichal research..and so on…I am not even a native English speaker, may native language is Duch…But I am a cerebral individual who adapts to the environment for his own happiness. That means accept English is the King, and let’s move on with our lives! Official Language in EU …English! Or in future is we are lucky and these liberal liders today don’t screw up to much ..United States of Europe, with English as Official Language, commune currency, One Army, One passport etc…!
Ni senpacience atendas kaj eltenas !
The people who hate english and try to push esperanto are very very confused and they make me feel sorry for them…It’s like an old stubborn accountant who hates the efficiency of technology and only keeps paper records for his customers…Will this accountant still be in business today? Let’s say for the sake of argument he is…is he the most successful accountant? how about the least successful? There are savage people still in the Amazonian jungle who produce food with stone age tools….We the western civilized world on the other hand split the atom under Swiss Apls….I guess the question is..who do you want to be? maybe some of you would be happier with a bone through your nose :)
Also I am very glad the Amazonian tribal people are not in charge of the World, but we the civilized western democracies are! This will probably make the liberals heads explode :)
Gina, you are mistaken which I know from my own experience. I once thought like you do, but I since learned better.
In order to uphold western civilization the values of the Enlightenment need to be spread around the world. Only when those values are understood and accepted around the world will the Left’s attempt to undermine our liberal civilization cease to have support.
Any idea that such worldwide understanding can ever be achieved using the anarchic, mongrel, unwieldy, concrete-bound dog’s breakfast known as English is pure fantasy. Among European languages English almost certainly has the weakest defense against the plague of semantic drift, whereby words get bent out of shape by speakers following common but mistaken usage rather than look up the correct meanings. This is especially noticeable with the English forms of the thousands of words shared by European languages which are Latin-derived, Greek-derived, Hebrew-derived etc., as I’m sure you experienced firsthand when you learned it and encountered incorrect meanings for many such words which you already understood correctly from your native language. That weak defense against this plague is great for the Left, it lets them twist and redefine words like gay, marriage, racism, genocide etc, to suit their agenda almost without opposition. Long before everyone else in the world could ever learn English, those efforts would prevent anyone from explaining the greatness of western civilization in this language.
What we need instead is a language with a strong defense against semantic drift so that words will retain their true meanings, and Esperanto’s defense against it is stronger than that of ANY western language. This is because Esperanto is comprised of roots rather than concretes and those roots can be freely combined to express any desired meaning; a compound word’s meaning is automatically the combination of the meanings of the roots. Thus the word for foreigner (eksterlandano) takes its meaning from the meanings of ekster/, land/, -an and -o. This ability to combine roots freely means that the approximately 17000 roots in Esperanto enable Esperanto speakers to form millions of words which are all clear and precise in a way which doesn’t exist in English or any other western language.
As a consequence, the meanings of the roots must be permanently fixed and unchangeable. The meanings of the compounds could not be relied upon otherwise, because only the roots are officially defined. As in most European languages OTHER THAN ENGLISH, those definitions are official once the Akademio de Esperanto accepts them.
For a world Renaissance and Enlightenment on the foundation of the European Renaissance and Enlightenment which came first, the world needs a new Latin to be a common second language for us all just as Latin was the common second language of educated Renaissance Europeans. Esperanto can be that new Latin but English never can.
Bravo sir, a valiant excercise of intelectualism and analyses. But you are absolutly wrong. Reality is we speak English arround the world because is the accepted language of business. Business and corporate world makes the world go round baby. I know a lot lot of people dont want to accept, but money and power runs all of our lives. Nobody in the business world wants esperanto so Esperanto is doomed as long as we fell English satisfies our need of world domination. You can either join us or get crushed! It’s as simple and as cruel as that. I am sorry but that is the truth. we will also make English official in African continent as well…is just a matter of time!
“The people who hate English”?? Do you mind Esperanto speakers ??? English is a national language and nobody hates it. “I guess the question is..who do you want to be? maybe some of you would be happier with a bone through your nose :)” Some people with a bone through their nose are certainly clever than you seem to be, Gina ! We need a second, fair, and easy language, we all people around the world, even those with a bone through the nose !
Jouanique, I feel sorry for you..You are obviously subcribed to liberal values hahahahah egalite fraternite..and some other bull. Sorry baby, you are too far gone. You will never be successful in this century! Feel free to put a bone through your nose if that’s what you want…I am so sorry you waste your intelect and your live subscribing to liberal ideologies. Hei. it’s you life..do as you please! I am glad you dont run the show :)
“The closest thing to a universal human language today is English, he added, but English in many ways fails to live up to Zamenhof’s dream, which was to hehp create a more egalitarian world.“
Jonathan Pool, “National Geographic“, 15-12-2009
what is this crazy ideea of egalitarian world. You are silly my friend I have almot 700 dollars in the bank I work my ass of for 15 years traveling countless ours arround the world sacrificing my time and you want me to share that with some looser who sits all day in bed watches TV ans smokes pot? NO WAY. The world is not suppose to be egalitarian you comunist silly person. The world is suppose to be a meritocracy! Who ever works hard gets to have stuff, the lazy get to have dick. Let’s not be freaking Bolsheviks ok!
” (…) The Google Translate team was actually surprised about the high quality of machine translation for Esperanto. As we know from many experiments, more training data (which in our case means more existing translations) tends to yield better translations. For Esperanto, the number of existing translations is comparatively small. German or Spanish, for example, have more than 100 times the data; other languages on which we focus our research efforts have similar amounts of data as Esperanto but don’t achieve comparable quality yet. Esperanto was constructed such that it is easy to learn for humans, and this seems to help automatic translation as well.
Although the system is still far from perfect, we hope that our latest addition helps you to learn more about Esperanto’s history and culture. Translation to and from Esperanto will soon be available on translate.google.com, in our mobile web app, and in the Google Translate app for Android and iOS.”
https://translate.googleblog.com/2012/02/tutmonda-helplingvo-por-ciuj-homoj.html
English – the universal language on the Internet?
https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/lingua-franca.html
@ René: (October 24th, 2016) “Learning a language is not a question of time or money”
Language learning always requires time. Reaching high proficiency almost invariably requires money, and lots of more time. To describe language acquisition from a hobbyist’s perspective or that of the average citizen living in the sunny side of the world is a very simplistic approach and fails to give a true, objective description of the whole picture. Such idealistic point of view fails to explain why many companies and “international” organizations prefer to hire native speakers for some specific positions, creating a segregation of second-class speakers who, no matter how hard they try, will never attain the same proficiency level as a native. Sounds like the cruel joke about the disabled man without arms: “no arm, no chocolate” (*). Jet the great majority fail to perceive the discrimination behind such employment policies, while those with a stake in such marketing dynamics tend to rationalize them away by means of uncontrollable forces of the market: “it’s just the way it is“, they say rubbing their hands while thinking, “let’s keep it that way”. Another day in “paralyse”.
(*) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7oMPm_2OyY
Robert. Learning foreign languages must start during secundary education without additional cost. At my school in Brussels we learned dutch, french, english and german. I learned spanish during my free hours of military service and went practising during vacations in Spain instead of laying all the day on a beach. How many foreign languages do the british learn at school?
@ Gina Spur: (October 25th, 2016) “Women are not paid less than men”
Instead of ranting so much directing your hostility and emotional anger towards others, try to stick more to facts and less to fantasy or wishful thinking. The fact that women are paid less than men is not an invention of some tribe of liberal hippies (the way you like to picture your imaginary enemy), but another sad reality that only fools or arrogant deniers are willing to dismiss as myth.
Between 1970 and 2012, female journalists in the U.S. earned about 6% to 25% less than male journalists did. This trend is persistent. (1)
Even more disturbing is the fact that when women take over a male-dominated field, the pay drops. Sociology professor Paula England at New York University found that when women moved into occupations in large numbers, those jobs began paying less even after controlling for education, work experience, skills, race and geography. (2)
A report from the Joint Economic Committee of the U.S. Congress as recent as April 2016, states that “the gender pay gap is caused by complex factors. However, even when all those factors are taken into account, as much as 40 percent of the pay gap may be attributed to discrimination”. (3)
The most embarrassing fact for you, Gina, would probably be the latest report by the OECD on gender wage gap in European countries (4). It shows that the Netherlands has one of the highest gap, namely 20,46%, while other countries that you are so prone to disrespect show a considerably better result: Greece 6,85%, Spain 8,65%, Italy 11,11%, France 14,05%. So there, you imagined yourself living in the Neverlands of planet Fantasy instead of in the Netherlands of planet Earth. But no matter the statistics results, the central point remains: your statement that women are not paid less than men is false.
One of the most common reasons given for this kind of gender discrimination is that we still live in a man’s world. In other words, it’s just the way it is. For how long? As long as the world is abundant with ignorant and arrogant people, we can assume it’s going to take quite a while to get rid of this idiocracy in which we all are trapped.
The world is full of awful things but no one should live in ignorance in order to be happy. Quite the contrary, ignorance and arrogance are at the root of much of the unhappiness in the world.
Based on the ignorance you showed about your own country, Europe and the U.S. you’d be better off not making a fool of yourself in a public debate. If you show such ignorance on subjects you should already know, how could anyone take you seriously whenever you rant on matters you know nothing about? How dare you insult other languages, people and countries out of plain ignorance and arrogance?! If you really need to debate, I suggest you stick to facts and please leave the attitude at home.
(1) http://news.indiana.edu/releases/iu/2014/05/2013-american-journalist-key-findings.pdf
(2) http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/88/2/865.full.pdf
(3) http://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/0779dc2f-4a4e-4386-b847-9ae919735acc/gender-pay-inequality—-us-congress-joint-economic-committee.pdf
(4) https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/genderwagegap.htm
your studies fail to convince me. Nobody is forcing these stupid women to accept a lower pay than men. It’s called the free market you communist f. If you dont like the offer go find another one. There are men paid less than women sometimes too and that’s because they are stupid enough to accept it! I dont see you giving me any studies about that…Why do you care about what what I am getting paid? Mind your own business and your own pay jackoff. jesus..the nerve on this f liberal!
No, the facts I presented don’t fail to convince you, and you know it, because they are not like one of your fairy tales, they are facts, as opposed to your statement about women, which is a plain lie. What you really mean, but are too ashamed to admit, is that those facts pissed you off because they are real and you don’t like that.
I can understand you get upset when others point out your lies. If you don’t like facts or the truth, just close your eyes and breathe in… breathe out… (Spoiler Warning: no matter how tight you close them, the truth and the world won’t disappear, neither will the fact you’re telling lies). Have a nice lie… I mean life!
Robert, let’s say your facts are real, dont you understand that if a woman gets paid less at the same job its her own fault. I am a woman and I am paid more than other men in my organization. yes for the same job. its not the gender is the negotiation skills. besides salaries are secret. do you want the government to create a department of fiscal police to go and check every company and see the people salaries and try to regulate them? That is comunism my friend is that what you want? Do you hate the business world so much? Who do you think creates the jobs in the private sector? with what taxes are we going to pay that fiscal police? Why not let the things the way they are, if someone is unhappy with salary can look for another job. Nobody is forcing these suposed sufering women to work there if they are not paid …Come on Robert, why do you hate the free market? did you see what happened in soviet Union when they run with the state regulating and controlling everything? Is that what you wont for us as well? I am glad you are not in charge baby..your ideas are dangerous! The market is fine the way it is…everybody gets paid what they worth..if they would worth more they would get paid more. Including you and me!
Gina, if :salaries are secret”, how do you know what men in your organization are paid? If you don’t know what they are paid, how do you know that you’re paid better than they are?
It’s a fallacy to claim that “everybody gets paid what they worth”. Evidently you don’t know about the California wage theft case, in which Silicon Valley high tech employers like Apple, Google, Yahoo and some others colluded to suppress salaries by agreeing not to hire any employees away from each other. They were sued and settled before the case got to court.
@Vilheĉjo I have no ideea what the men get paid in my organisation, because the salaries are secret. And I dont care. If they are paid more than me mor epower to them it means they had more balls to negotiate than I did. I mind my own business and my own pay, the company shareholders ofcourse try to pay the employees as low as possible to maximise their profits..what is wrong with that? If the employees dont like the salaries they can resign. it\s called freemarket economics ..have you ever heared of it ? Or are you pro government interference into that as well. You people dont understant the concept of personal responsibility. It is your responsability to take care of yourself, not the state, not the church..yours. That means you have to work and make money as much as you need to live the statndard of living that you want. You dont want to pay high prices on heath insurance…dont smoke and dont drink, go to gym and you dont need to even buy heath insurance. You want to earn a high pay, work your but off…get good at something that the market needs: sales, presentations, finance, engineering, martial arts, heath professionals energy sector, automotive, entrepreneurship etc….there are so many opportunities to earn a six figures salary in the western world all you need is to study and work hard. 6 figures will get you started in life great, trust me. Of course if you are a lazy bum you will not get into these professions…you will scream from the top of your lungs…equality…healtcare…free college…social benefit…give me brake. You people are losers! It’s disgusting! I pay taxes so your ass sits on wellfare and smokes pot all day…Trust me this will not last for longer!
Y a-t-il quelqu’un qui puisse traduire ou au moins résumer cet article en anglais ?
Ĉu estas iu kiu povas traduki au almenaŭ resumi tiun artikolon en la angla ?
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/beispiel-porsche-sprache-in-firmen-schlechtes-deutsch-besser-als-gutes-englisch-1.292633
Schlechtes Deutsch besser als gutes Englisch
Error, error: Der Sportwagenhersteller Porsche setzt intern ganz auf die deutsche Sprache. Weil der Einfallsreichtum der Ingenieure dann größer ist.
Von Stefanie Gentner
Porsche hat sich zu einem der angesehensten Automobilhersteller entwickelt. Ein Erfolgsfaktor könnte der konsequente Einsatz des Deutschen als Unternehmenssprache sein – betont die Zuffenhausener Firma selbst. Das sagen aber auch Unternehmensberater und Sprachforscher.
Jüngst quittierten nun auch noch die Leser der Zeitschrift Deutsche Sprachwelt das Engagement der Porsche AG mit Wertschätzung und wählten den Autohersteller zum “Sprachwahrer des Jahres”.
Tatsächlich lassen sich mit dem konsequenten Gebrauch der deutschen Sprache als Konzernsprache – so wie es Porsche durchzusetzen versucht – entscheidende Vorteile erzielen.
Etwa in Besprechungen: Die Erfahrung zeigt, dass selbst Diplom-Ingenieure – Werksleiter mit bis zu 5000 Mitarbeitern – in “Meetings” nichts sagen, weil ihnen auf Englisch nichts einfällt oder sie sich nicht blamieren wollen.
Porschechef Wendelin Wiedeking betonte hierzu schon vor einiger Zeit im Spiegel: “Natürlich können sich die Manager in Englisch verständigen. Aber das ist nicht auf allen Arbeitsebenen der Fall. Ganz schwierig wird es, wenn es um Details geht, um die Einzelteile eines Motors beispielsweise. Doch gerade bei diesen Themen müssen sich die Mitarbeiter perfekt verständigen. Und wenn Englisch oder Französisch die Konzernsprache ist, benachteiligt man automatisch alle, für die dies nicht die Muttersprache ist.”
Es erscheint nur allzu offensichtlich, dass hier Arbeitsprozesse langwieriger vonstattengehen oder sogar ganz schieflaufen. “In großen Runden reden dann plötzlich nur noch die, die gut Englisch sprechen und nicht die, die fachlich Ahnung haben”, sagt Betriebslinguistiker und Unternehmensberater Reiner Pogarell. Er hat ein passendes Beispiel: “Allein das Wort ‘Fehler’ lässt sich im Deutschen in feinsten Abstufungen ausdrücken.”
Ob Qualitätsmangel, Versehen, Fehlplanung oder Missmanagement. Der deutsche Ingenieur kennt hier im Englischen vielleicht nur das Wort “Error” und bringt somit längst nicht an den Tag, was er tatsächlich sagen will. “So scheitern einfachste Arbeitsprozesse”, sagt Pogarell.
Das geht in der Sachbearbeitung dann weiter. Wird der eingehende Auftrag nicht verstanden, wird er nicht bearbeitet. “Schlechtes Deutsch ist hier oft besser als nur Englisch”, weiß Pogarell aus seiner Praxis in deutschen Unternehmen.
Ein Porsche-Sprecher bringt es noch einmal auf den Punkt: “Natürlich müssen auch bei uns alle Englisch können, um sich international bewegen zu können. Es ist aber doch die Muttersprache, die uns wirklich stark macht.”
Vorstellungskraft fördern
Gerade in den Entwicklungsabteilungen geht es um Vorstellungskraft, Denkschärfe und um reibungslose Verständigung. Der Einfallsreichtum der Ingenieure ist in ihrer Muttersprache am größten, heißt es bei Porsche. Dieser soll auf keinen Fall gebremst werden.
Der Erfolg gibt dem Unternehmen Recht. So konnte es für das Jahr 2007 unter anderem einen Zulassungsrekord in Deutschland und einen Verkaufsrekord in Nordamerika ausweisen.
Nach einer Umfrage des Manager Magazins ist Porsche außerdem zum achten Mal in Folge zum Unternehmen mit dem besten Ansehen in Deutschland gekürt worden.
Auch andere Firmen setzen konsequent auf die deutsche Sprache, etwa Eon Westfalen-Weser. Das Unternehmen hat sogar einen entsprechenden Leitfaden für die Mitarbeiter zusammengestellt.
Das Gros der Firmen folgt jedoch dem Trend der “Verenglischung”: Viele Unternehmen anglisieren sogar ihre Firmennamen, wie beispielsweise BMW Group, Deutsche Post World Net oder Deutsche Bahn Mobility Network Logistics.
Siemens nennt ihre Abteilungen nur noch Power Generation, Automation Technologies oder Lighting. Ebenso bei BASF: Hier hat sich Vorstandsvorsitzender Jürgen Hambrecht darum bemüht, die Unternehmensbereiche seit dem 1. Januar 2008 mit englischen Bezeichnungen zu versehen, ohne dafür deutschsprachige Entsprechungen anzubieten.
So wurden aus den vormals fünf Segmenten Chemikalien, Kunststoffe, Veredelungsprodukte, Pflanzenschutz/Ernährung und Öl/Gas nun die sechs neuen Bereiche Chemicals, Plastics, Functional Solutions, Performance Products, Agricultural Solutions und Oil&Gas.
“Comical Company”
Manch einer machte sich schon lustig, nannte BASF nicht mehr “The Chemical Company”, sondern nur noch lapidar “The Comical Company”.
Gerade die Mitarbeiter haben ihre Probleme mit dem neuen Vokabular. So schreibt ein Beschäftigter in der BASF-Mitarbeiterzeitung, er tue sich “sehr schwer” mit den neuen Bezeichnungen.
Betriebslinguistiker Pogarell hält den Trend zur englischen Sprache schon aus Imagegründen für eher schädlich als förderlich. “Denn ‘Made in Germany’ ist nach wie vor ein Verkaufsgarant.”
Sprachwissenschaftler sehen noch weitere Probleme. Im Vergleich zum normalen Englisch entwickelt sich in den Firmen meist ein sogenanntes Bad Simple English (BSE), also ein einfacheres, oft fehlerhaftes Englisch. So birgt BSE, gerade bei Geschäftsbeziehungen aufgrund der Fehlerhaftigkeit die Gefahr von Missverständnissen, die fatale Folgen nach sich ziehen können.
Der Supermarkt Wal-Mart kann hier als bekanntestes Beispiel für das Scheitern des Englischen herangezogen werden. Mit insgesamt über einer Million Mitarbeitern kam die weltweit größte Lebensmittelkette ab Mitte der 1990er Jahre auf den deutschen Markt. Bereits 2007 musste der US-Konzern seine Filialen in Deutschland wieder schließen – mit riesigen Verlusten.
Reiner Pogarell hat die Entwicklung bei Wal-Mart eingehend betrachtet und ist sich sicher: “Zu viel Englisch.”
Wal-Mart setzte amerikanische Geschäftsführer ein. Das gesamte Management, ab dem Filialleiter, musste Englisch sprechen. Es folgte eine Trennung zwischen den oberen und unteren Unternehmensebenen. “Beschwerden wurden zum Beispiel nicht weitergeleitet, weil sie in Englisch formuliert sein mussten.”
Nach und nach fehlten zunächst die Motivation der eigenen Mitarbeiter und in der Folge dann auch die Kunden.
Porsche ist in jedem Fall überzeugt von seinem Festhalten an der deutschen Sprache. In Stuttgart blickt man entspannt zum Nachbarn Daimler, der nicht zuletzt durch die Kooperation mit dem amerikanischen Automobilhersteller Chrysler Englisch als Konzernsprache eingeführt hat. “Das gibt es bei uns nicht”, heißt es bei Porsche.
wtf are you saing dude?
This is my effort.
Bad German is better than good English
Error, error: The sports car manufacturer Porsche works very much in the German language internally. Because it improves the ingenuity of engineers.
By Stefanie Gentner
Porsche has developed into one of the most prestigious car manufacturers. One success factor could be the consistent use of the German language as a company – as the Zuffenhausen company itself emphasizes. But a management consultant and linguist agree.
This commitment of Porsche AG has recently been acknowledged by readers from the German language world, who showed their esteem by choosing the automaker as “Sprachwahrer des Jahres (Language Guardian of the Year)”.
Consistent use of German as a company language – as Porsche tries to enforce – can achieve significant benefits.
Meetings, for instance: Experience shows that even graduate engineers – say a plant manager with up to 5000 employees – will say nothing in “meetings” because they can’t think in English or don’t want to embarrass themselves.
Porsche boss Wendelin Wiedeking emphasized this some time ago in ‘der Spiegel’: “Of course, the manager can communicate in English. But not in a comprehensive way, at every relevant level of detail. It is quite difficult when it comes to details, perhaps the individual parts of an engine for example. But it is precisely on these issues that employees must communicate perfectly. If English or French is the comapany language, then you automatically discriminate against all for whom this is not the native language.”
This obviously leads to work processes being lengthier or even go wrong altogether. “In large groups the impact is that only those who speak English well talk and not those that have a technical insight,” says linguist operation and management consultant Reiner Pogarell. He has a good example: “The word ‘Fehler’ in German can express subtle gradations.”
It can express quality defect, oversight, poor planning or mismanagement. In this case the German engineer may only know the English word “Error” and cannot, in the end of the day, express what he really wants to say. “Thus the simplest work processes fail,” says Pogarell.
The problem extends to the clerical arena. If the incoming order is not understood, it is not processed. “Poor German is here often better than English-only,” says Pogarell from his experience in German companies.
A Porsche spokesman again makes the point: “Of course we must have English in order be able to move internationally. Yet it is the native language, which makes us really strong. ”
Promote Imagination
In the development departments imagination, thinking and a focus on smooth communication is especially important. The ingenuity of the engineers in their native language is greatest, says Porsche. This should not be slowed down in any way.
Their success proves the company right. It was able, amongst other things, to set a vehicle registration record in Germany and a sales record in North America for the year 2007.
According to a survey by ‘Manager Magazin’, Porsche has for eight consecutive years been named the company with the best reputation in Germany.
Other companies consistently focus on the German language, for instance Eon Westfalen-Weser. This company has even compiled a guideline for employees.
However, the bulk of companies follow the trend of “Verenglischung (Anglicizing)”: Many companies even anglicized their company names such as BMW Group, German Post World Net or German Rail Mobility Network Logistics.
Siemens calls its departments only Power Generation, Automation Technologies, or Lighting. Also at BASF: Here CEO Jürgen Hambrecht has endeavored to provide the business units since 1 January 2008, with English names, without offering German equivalents.
So where previously there were five segments, ‘Chemikalien, Kunststoffe, Veredelungsprodukte, Pflanzenschutz/Ernährung und Öl/Gas’, the six new areas are ‘Chemicals, Plastics, Functional Solutions, Performance Products, Agricultural Solutions and Oil & Gas’.
“Comical Company”
Many joke that BASF is no longer “The Chemical Company”, but only succinctly “The Comical Company”.
The staff have problems with the new vocabulary. An employee in the BASF employee newspaper writes that he was finding the new names “very difficult”.
Operating linguist Pogarell finds this trend towards English for image reasons more harmful than beneficial. “Because ‘Made in Germany’ is still a sale guarantee.”
Linguists see other problems. Instead of normal English a company usually develops so-called Bad Simple English (BSE), a simpler, often faulty English. Defects in BSE pose a risk of misunderstandingss in these businesses which can have fatal consequences.
The supermarket Wal-Mart can be used as well known example of the failure of English here. With more than one million employees, the world’s largest food chain came in the mid-1990s to the German market. But by 2007 its outlets in Germany closed again with huge losses for the US group.
Reiner Pogarell has studied the development at Wal-Mart in detail and is sure the problem was: “Too much English.”
Wal-Mart had an American CEO. The entire management, from the store manager up, had to speak English. There was a separation between the upper and lower levels of the company. “Complaints were for example not be forwarded because they had to be formulated in English.”
Bit by bit this first undermined the motivation of employees and later the customer.
Porsche is in any case convinced in its adherence to the German language. In Stuttgart you need but look at neighbor Daimler which in it’s cooperation with the American carmaker Chrysler English has not introduced English as the company language. “It doesn’t wash with us,” says Porsche.
Gavin, Porche makes nice cars I am not disagreeing, but not as great as alfa romeo, they are too expensive, they consume to much fuel and they require too much driving experience due to rear wheel drive trains. My favourite car is Tesla any way, they speak English, they look sophisticated, they are environmentally friendly and soon will be at a price of a quarter of a porche, therefore affordable for all Europeans. Any way like I said, nobody is forcing you to buy a Tesla or speak english, ese german if you want, at home, in your factory, what ever you want…but when you want to be part of the EU…it will be impossible for 2 reason. 1..Italians, romanianas, spaniords and french can not learn it…Latin people can not learn german. Aslo they dont want to because they already speak very good English. 2. second reason is Hitler…he screwed up too much, we are not going to adopt German as our official language..you can rest assured hell will freeze …but German Language as number 1 in Europe…NEVER!
I was just passing on the message in translation because the Original Poster asked for a translation. Your post seemed a bit dismissive because it was in German, which I didn’t think was fair.
The article was way to long to be of much use, but translating usefully highlighted for me the difficulties of working in a non-native language.
‘Latin’ people can learn German, but it is true that few want to learn German.
In Ireland we have been through this process – over many years English replaced Irish – and during the interim multi-lingual time English had prestige, and was used for ‘important’ work. This is the phase many other European countries are entering now. It’s not a fun process, and it damages us, but there is life after your language is lost, or downgraded.
Al Gavin Crowley
Ĉiuj ni lernu Esperanton, kaj ĉiuj ni evitu la historia malbonŝanco de la irlandanoj!
“English is not normal
No, English isn’t uniquely vibrant or mighty or adaptable. But it really is weirder than pretty much every other language” :
https://aeon.co/essays/why-is-english-so-weirdly-different-from-other-languages
Gavin Crowley, I could of not said it better myself. Exactly. There is life after your language gets downgraded…a good life! Like United States of Europe life! We need to get our act together and either choose a big country USE, or brake this EU BS which everyone hates!
English Language is so versatile!
Gina: “I could of not said it better ”
Are you advocating English or double Dutch ?
yes lets stick with english…anybody want to vote?
No. It should be mandatory to learn it within the EU for better communication, but that’s it.
.
If English were mandatory within the EU wouldn’t that make it the official language of the EU ?
Where I live English is taught as a secondary language because we are a tourist destination, useful for overseas studies and is a common language in trade. Greek is still the official language. In the Bretton Woods conference this year somebody recommended that people ought to start learning Chinese to help with trade. It is just more practical to have a common language in a globalized world.
Yes
Not yet but it should be eventually for a better understanding and easy communication.
Of course not!
Maybe not quite, but it’d still be handy to learn for international audiences.
Be practical! English became an official and unofficial language because people adopted it. Because many people used it. Because businesses could benefit from it. Because of other practical reasons.
If one is to pick another language, let’s be practical or else leave it as it is!
Οχι
Let us practical!
English became an official and unofficial language because people adopted it!
Because many people used it!
Because businesses could benefit from it!
Because of practical reasons!
Not because it was imposed or made into law!
If one is to pick another language, let’s be practical or else leave it as it is!
Let us not do this as another Esperanto exercise.
correction – Let us BE practical…
Let us be practical and finally teach Esperanto! The standard of “international” English is atrocious. People do not realise how bad it is. It is time to recognise that the great English experiment has failed.
Such arrogance !
Such ignorance!
Wtf? Never!
English is the simplest language on earth, and because of this fact english is the best language for the common communication, but that’s all.
It should be but not the only one. English is not only british. It’s also the official language of several othe countries, and especially the USA with much more population than the UK. It’s aldo the second language in many european countries and regions. The Sweden, Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands, Flanders, etc.
It should be but not the only one. English is not only british. It’s also the official language of several other countries, and especially the USA with much more population than the UK. It’s aldo the second language in many european countries and regions. The Sweden, Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands, Flanders, etc.
No! It should be the only working but not the only official language.
.
No Germany rules the EU so German should be your official & only language.
And after that, same food, same clothes, it reminds me a bit USSR! ;)
English should be the working language as the simplest and most international. All european languages should be official ones (not only english,german,french) for equality purposes. But for mobility and professional reasons it should just be one language only. You cannot expect people to study languages all their lives in order to work in specific countries
Official? No. One of the official languages and sole working language? Yes. Let us be honest, English is by far the most common second language in the EU, and once Britain leaves, there risks of it being associated with the hegemony of one member fades.
Well said!
yes and in eduucation
Since UK is leaving i wonder what would be the official language. Perhaps FRENCH or GERMAN.
I don’t know ..should it ?
What is tha alternative? Deutsch? Language of nazis? Language of country where born the worst ideologies ovrer the world as socialism, communism, nazism and The luteran “reformation”?
Without Greek and Latin….
How its possible to communicate? Politiki Logiki Musiki Planites Klima Astrofysiki Psychiatriki Pathologos Cardiologos Geografia Historia mega micro..
Theatro architectoniki Academia technologia…
..
.
….
The southern states have lost the cultural and economic war, get used to it. Accept it and move on. No one is interested in f-ing Catholicism any more. Money and technology is the new religion.
Thats the crime and the problem of ylistic Europe and nobody cares or talk about it.We are prisoners on depths for Ever without nobody asking all of us. New order of Europe has lost his soul
why should the language of a no longer member country be the choice?
Yes ur right, people have the right to make stupid stupid decisions. Like insisting on trying to resurrect pointless, useless, dead languages like Hungarian, finish, Slavic..etc. for example.
they may be pointless, but those are not dead languages
I still favor English BECAUSE they will be no longer part of the club. No conflicts and jealousies btw member state languages .. plus we want to make sure they understand what is at stake and what they have lost.
Oui, une seule langue comme le russe quand l’URSS existait, génial!!!
Rémi Martin bonne observation
no
Of course not……what is so special about english. ….?
Wow. That is a really dumb question. Lol
Give me a clever answer then. …
A bit like russian when USSR was Jude! It was a nice idea, wasn’t it? ;)
Ussr was a dictatorship..and many of its part were underdeveloped, poor,illiterate….it was easy to impose russian.
Maybe not so underdeveloped, poor, illeterate they could even learn russian? Then why is somebody wanting to impose a unique language??? It’s the same thing!
I dont know…maybe cause everybody is using it? Like you and me right now!
If you want languages, let’s talk about movies dubbed vocally, losing all their originality and charm, because some scared politicians used the threat of english to scare people and get votes.
Hell no!
Yes. Only english
Europe is multicultural, multilingual and after brexit English is no longer a European language, unless the Irish want to change their official entry.
that is exactly why we all speak english! cause we are multiculti…to avoid you freaking out when I tell you how lovely you are in Bulgarian!
Yes, There are other countries in EU that have English as their first language. English has become the lingua Franka of Europe and it will only bring discontent if the language is changed. It should not be considered that English was the language of the EU because UK is or was in the EU. After all Scotland might join.
No, why we should. Being multi-lingual is proven to help being more skilful. Time to learn a bit of non-/other- European languages.
English French !
Keep English BECAUSE they are no longer part of the club. No conflicts btw other member state languages.
Un país que no pertenezca a la UE, lo lógico es que su idioma o lengua no sea oficial. Eso es como si le dices a los chinos que gobiernen ellos Europa. De seguro que no cuela.
Yes of course!
The big mistake was not to enforce ESPERANTO as the second lenguage in all UE countries, 40 years ago. But even the founders of the EU din’t believe it would last so long.
Totally agree! Having English as official language is discrimination of other nations and languages in EU. Native English speakers are more privileged than people from other countries with other mother tongues. Esperanto would unite all nations. Every nation could protect their own language and culture, but common business language would be artificial language – Esperanto. All people in EU would be equal.
Do you mean american? Brits are leaving your useless EU!!! Ils ne sont plus là les Britanniques!!! Les clés de l’Europe, j’adore cette question!!!
Ireland exists.
Like others countries! :)
The EU uses English not only within its borders but also when dealing and negotiating outside Europe.
No! In varietate concordia!
Yes, there is no other more widely comprehended language. It’s easier if there is just one language for everyone to become fluent in, and easier still if it happens to be the language that most Europeans already speak very well. Disregard the fact that it’s the only language I speak.
No enpä ole oudompaa ajatusta kuullut! No, eihän sitä älyä ole tietenkään pakko käyttää?
I use english everyday than swedish, as an foreign language even if i am complete swedish. Here is a couple of areas where i use english everyday. 1. I handle all my private electronic devices on eng!, even computers run windows 7 on english not swedish under any circumstances!. 2. Whatever i write down in a notebook as an exp!, in order to remember things, i use english, never write in swedish!. 3. When i go to the supermarket to buy food and other things, i use english here too. My shopping list is always on english not swedish. 4. Watch bbc world news each morning and evening and learn english for free, read and understand, i do not watch swedish television anymore!. 5. When i browse the web, by most of the time i use english than swedish and almost always visit english web sites. All my apps in iphone,ipad is in english too even if some apps is swedish but easily translated into english. 6. I listen to music and watch movies in the english language, not swedish anymore. As you probably understand above. My childhood since 2000 has been and is very complicated, and because of a lot of very complicated private issues which i can not help under any circumstances from the past even if i am 30 years old today. My relation to this country hanging on a tread, even if i love the swedish people and the swedish society and so on. Since english is so regular today there is almost no idea anymore to use my mother language swedish and develop it. I develop english!.
Congratulations ! C’est ironique. Je suis contre la disparition des langues, si minoritaires soient-elles et donc pour l’espéranto, fair, équitable, beaucoup mais alors beaucoup beaucoup plus facile que toutes les autres et donc accessible à tous, paysans et ouvriers compris. Car si on ne parle pas couramment une langue, cela ne sert pas à grand-chose de l’apprendre. Parler couramment anglais et maintenir son niveau quand on ne l’utilise pas dans la vie quotidienne est impossible, possible avec l’espéranto. Speaking fluently english is no easy (farmers, factory workers don’t use it everyday), just those who study and travell , “yes,they can”. If you don’t speak fluently, it’s useless for debating. Speaking fluently Esperanto is much much more easier. I don’t speak for “fair, equity, égalité, neutralité”, it’s obviously.
The post above is a timely warning to all those who love the Swedish language and wish it to survive. It is also a good advert for Esperanto: despite so much use of English, the writer still manages to make a lot of mistakes in English: “I” is always capitalised in English, as is the “E” in English; “by most of the time” should be “for most of the time”; “All my apps ….is” should be “All my apps…are”; ….I could mention many more……but it all just goes to prove the point that English is almost impossible to master for a non-native speaker, apart from a handful of linguistically gifted people. It will always exclude the vast majority of people, unless they do as Ireland did: use only English and kill off their own language.
..mi estas esperantisto (..I”m esperantist) ,sed mi opinias aliel: ..Esperanto estas antikva artofarita lingvo kun nesufyichje korekta gramatyika skeleto de la lingvo kaj tro ( ==> trejst) limigyita fonetyika alfabeto ,kiu ne donas eblecon fonetyike qhuste skryibi diversnaciayn personayn nomoyn kaj ( ==> yi [i:]) echj la ( ==> dha) anglayn ,!!sed ( ==> !!on) nun jam ekzyistas nuntempay variantoy (dialektoy) de antyikva Esperanto kun perfekta gramatyika skeleto yi ( tamon) gvidantay Esperant+mOvadon ( ==> Esperant+mUvadon) administrantay esperantyistoy vershajne estas tre ( ==> trej) danqheray esperantlyingvay nacionalyistoy ,echj pli ( ==> blej) danqheray nacionalistoy ,ol ( ==> kolj = kol’) dha anglay nacionalyistoy ,kiuy dezyiras vyidi nur ( ==> onlo) dha anglan liangvon ( = movon +– vorto “movo” kiel sinonyimo de vorto “lingvo” estas pruntoprenyita el dha Ukrayina movo = liangvo) en rolo de tutmonda internacia movo ,!!mi proponas alternatyivayn variantoyn (ununaciayn artofaryitayn dialektoyn kun unueca (komuna por chjiuy artofaryitay dialektoy) gramatyika skeleto blej ( <== pli) perfekta ,kolj ( = kol' ko) ESPA GRAMATyIKO de estonta GLOBALA MOVO ESPE (nomo ==> namo “ESPE” estas ( ==> jas) pruntoprenyita el namo “ESPE-RANTO”) ,ekzemple ,por Esperanto (en tandemo kun Esperanto) ekde 15″08″2000+a j” (!!jam blej kolj ( ==> pli ol) 16 jiaroy = j”y) ekzistas tandema (filyina) artofaryita EsperanteEspa dialekto ,on ( <= sed) por la ( = dha = d^a) angla movo ekzyistas In^glis^eEspa dialekto ,por dha germana –+ Doy(o)chjeEspa ,por Franca –+ FranseEspa ,por Rusa –+ RuseEspa yi fo blej(lo) = yi f" b" ( (p)etinfanece = petinfanece = etinfanece) ,!!onlo ( <= nur) ununaciayn SENCAYN vortoyn de chjiu tandema dialekto necesos lerni etnojve ( = petnojve !!chji+tio estas genia ideo: !donu por chjiu nacia movo ( = liangv(eqh)o = langveq^o) propran “Esperanton”
Portuguese and spanish
Et pourquoi??? Chacun parle sa langue maternelle dans cette union qui n’en est pas une, un point c’est tout!
Because spanish is the 3 language spoken in the world, portuguese is the 4. Mandarin, the first but is for China. English, the second is for UK and brexit.
And french? Like english, french is one of two languages spoken on the five continents…
Well, french is not as spoken as spanish and portuguese. They made discoveries and conquered the world in XV and XVI centuries. But France is France. Ok.
Just look in 2050, french will be the second most spoken language! 😊
Look where?
English is already the common language globally. This question is pointless
Languages come and go, so easy!
You mean french or german? English seems to stay
Yes and no. For all intends and purposes it already is, and it would cut some of the massive overhead caused by redundant translations. But by that same argument de facto it wouldn’t change much, and probably would just be food for nationalist populist resentment of the EU as ‘yet another autocratic measure by Brussels.’ I think the EU needs to be careful not to overextend and implode under the weight of its own ambitions.
I speak three languages . It was waste of time from my life to learn more then one. I hope one day we’ll all speak only one language in the world. Our life is too short to waste the time without sense.
I hope we’ll all eat the same food, drive the same cars and wear the same clothes, nice future, isn’t ir?
that is all what you understood?!!try to think deeply! Count the seconds of your life and don’t lose it, you don’t receive other!
I can help you to stop counting yours, euronazi! It reminds me USSR who wanted all the countries to speak russian, EU is today just the western version!
the language is just a helpful tool for communication, nothing more :)
Ben alors, ouvre toi au Monde et aux autres cultures!
It reminds me USSR with russian…
Yes. Especially for official documents. Legal translations cost a lot of money to citizens moving from one country to another. Same with car registration, all countries have different rules. It’s ripping off citizens, and that shouldn’t be the point. It should be easier to move around not harder. Otherwise what’s the point of being in the EU? Making some people really rich…no thank you. Either everything is standard EU level or let’s go find our own way like we did before.
Like russian was during USSR? I hope then we’ll all eat the same food, drive the same cars and wear the same clothes, nice future, isn’t it?
Common language for administration doesn’t mean you need to give up everything else
Yes to bilingual education from Early childhood education! Ask the Canadians they have already done the research!!!
re: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/magazine/the-end-of-the-anglo-american-order.html?_r=0
Here is an recent article from the New York Times in which the author describes the failures of Anglo-American exceptionalism, the abstract basis of the spread of Anglo-American economics, ethics, language, and culture and how 2016 will be seen and understood as the end of the world’s acceptance of such. Brexit and Trump are the living proof that native English speakers absolutely do NOT have the world’s wellfare in their hearts. They are hell bent on imposing their culture and language on the rest of the world solely for their own profit. I live in the midst of Anglo-Saxon culture, though, fortunately, on the fringe where culture tends to sway between Spanish and English (I live in Southeast Florida, often negatively refered to by the people up north as the most northern part of South America). We, here, are mostly bilingual and multicultural and we accept this mixture. Our general stance has been soundly rejected by the Trump voters and by the Brexit people. We have become what they fear. Eso no me molesta por nada. On the contrary! I see the spread of the two English languages with their egoistic, profit-centered, hedonistic, antispiritual cultures as a danger for humanity. I live with their bigotry in which they want to refuse to accept my marriage to another man, basing this on their “relgion” and yet they have outlawed the feeding of the homeless “to protect their property values”. Thus, is the leading religion of these people – Anglo-Christianity with a Calvinist base, in which prosperity in money is equal to virtue. With the language comes the culture and it is this culture of greed that the elite in Europe and around the world so admire in English and its culture – but all that glitters is not gold. Their false god, their golden calf is the center piece of their philosophy of good living. Through Esperanto I have learned another way, one which is enshrined in homaranismo, in which humans are the center of life – a philosophy of international acceptance in which each individual does not strive alone for her or his own well being but rather each individual takes steps to meet others. To give up your culture as one Swedish writer brags he does, is a severe discredit to cultures other than that of the Brits (and Americans, but I suppose that he orients his efforts more toward British culture). I write this as a warning AGAINST accepting English as the standard, not as a warning against studying one of the English languages. But, caveat emptor, there is more that comes with the territory than irregular and phrasal verbs! There is an attitude and philosophy that are coupled with the Anglo-Saxons’ world view without which one can hardly aspire to speak one of their languages correctly.
Thank you Sean, who replied to Oscar Nygren :” … but it all just goes to prove the point that English is almost impossible to master for a non-native speaker, apart from a handful of linguistically gifted people. It will always exclude the vast majority of people, unless they do as Ireland did: use only English and kill off their own language.” “L’anglais détruit notre pensée.” Claude Hagège… et si nous ne nous méfions pas notre langue aussi ! Fairness, équité, aucune équité si nous adoptons l’anglais comme seconde langue en Europe.
Since Sean approached the subject, I would like to add that Oscar Nygren really could do with more detailed lessons in how English grammar is structured. As a tourist, he will deinitely find people who understand him but will know that he is NOT a native speaker and far from it In an academic congress, behind his back people would snicker. I really feel sorry for him because he is convinced that he has mastered English (British English). Within the first few words of any of his writings the reader immediately knows that he is non-grammatical. I know that my words sound arrogant – I do not mean it that way. But unfortunately may anglophiles live with the same illusion i.e. that they have mastered English when in fact they hardly have.
I feel fairly confident that my Esperanto is far better than their English and I have devote but miniminal time to its acquisition.
To be against Esperanto is like rooting for the horse and buggy, because there are so few uses for the automobil in our world. Everyone uses a horse and buggy. It is the accepted form of transportation. Those enthusiasts who want automobils are dreamers
“The Problem With The English Language In India” – Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/11/06/the-problem-with-the-english-language-in-india/#65b0829437be
La angla estas problemo, ne solvo.
L’anglais est un problème, pas une solution.
English is a problem, not a solution.
Koloniado / colonisation :1750-1947…
Thank God we are not in India! Jesus, can you imagine being poor and stupid! Ugly too! Any way, we seem to communicate very efectifely in English in US, EU, China, Australia, Africa, South america, every where! When we travel for business or pleasure, from the Airport to the hotel or the coffee shop we use the english language! So let’s not beat arround the bush and make English the official language of EU.
“In June 1998, a survey carried out by the BBC among its listeners to know what they thought of the idea of doing of English the single official language of the European Union, a Korean researcher, Kin Hiongun, answered: “Korea invests enormous amounts in the teaching of English. If I could have used my time in my own way, I could have obtained five doctorates in the years that I was obliged to study English.
hahahaha I bet this genius doesn’t have a doctorate still today! what a looser!
Giina, you seem to have watching too much Trump and have taken on his haughty, bullying language. This is a halfway academic discussion, not a place to rant impolitely. And as a former univesity ESL teacher, I must at least partially agree with Mr. Kion Hiongun. And I know how some monolingual faculty members laugh at very bright foreign students who mess up a phrasal verb or fail to use a more academic term. It is a disgrace how knowledge of one language can be used to humiliate others.
Sorry Robb, calling it like it is! I happen to love Trump, he is a winner. Your Korean example is a looser. That means Trump proposed himself to win billions, achieve high standard of living, and become president, and he achieved this. Obviously the Korean fellow proposed some doctorate for himself and when he failed to achieve it …blamed the environment for stealing his time, forcing him to learn English..which I doubt he did it on high quality standards. So what can I say…Your attitude is pathetic, if you think me pointing out the guys obvious failure makes me some kind of bully. Truth hurts sometime.Grow up and take it like a man…don;t be a pus! Robb!
Gina, it seems to me that you spurted through kingergarten and did even learn the basic rules of civilty. It is not for me to grow up but rather for you learn something about educated discourse. Name calling and telling me to “take it like a man” prove my point that you are not very serious about this subject as a true object of discussion but that, rather, you have a biased and prejudiced stance with which noone may disagree according to you. I need not say more. You yourself, just as Mr. Trump, only need to be heard and reflected upon for the audience with any kind of proper education to draw their own conclusions. You prove your point: bullying, conning, scaming, half-truthing and false representation are the building blocks of your rather narrow thoughts. Leb wohl
Robb, your problem is that you can not stand different points of view. Trump won the election because majority of the people voted for him. Now I know you are a liberal pus who absolutely hates the majority of people and thinks we are uneducated, but guess what, you are wrong! Your opinion is f laud, you are too emotional and blinded by propaganda of social justice liberalism to see the truth. You have the right to, that’s fine, be as sensitive and liberal and wrong as much as you want. Luckily majority of people see the logic and benefits of having an universal language! Eat your heart out, cause English has already been the KING before you and I were even born. I feel sorry for you, you are a lost soul.pathetic and miserable cause the world is not a Marxist happy tree hugging place, where liberals can sip tea and read literature all day. Yeah Some of us still have values, like patriotism, property rights, owning businesses and investments, pay less taxes for socialist programs, being independent and free thinking.
I think Esperanto would make a better international language.
..mi estas esperantisto (..I”m esperantist) ,sed mi jhinias aliel: ..Esperanto estas antikva artofarita lingvo kun nesufyichjo korekta gramatyika skeleto de la lingvo kaj tro ( ==> trejst) limigyita fonetyika alfabeto ,kiu ne donas eblecon fonetyike qhuste skryibi diversnaciayn personayn nomoyn kaj ( ==> yi [i:]) echj la ( ==> dha) anglayn ,!!sed ( ==> !!on) nun jam ekzyistas nuntempay variantoy (dialektoy) de antyikva Esperanto kun perfekta gramatyika skeleto yi ( <= kaj) qhusta ( tamon) gvidantay Esperant+mOvadon ( ==> Esperant+mUvadon) administrantay esperantyistoy vershajne estas tre ( ==> trej) danqheray esperantlyingvay nacionalyistoy ,echj pli ( ==> blej) danqheray nacionalistoy ,ol ( ==> kolj = kol’) dha anglay nacionalyistoy ,kiuy dezyiras vyidi nur ( ==> onlo) dha anglan liangvon ( = movon +– vorto “movo” kiel sinonyimo de vorto “lingvo” estas pruntoprenyita el dha Ukrayina movo = liangvo) en rolo de tutmonda internacia movo ,!!mi proponas alternatyivayn variantoyn (ununaciayn artofaryitayn dialektoyn kun unueca (komuna por chjiuy artofaryitay dialektoy) gramatyika skeleto blej ( <== pli) perfekta ,kolj ( = kol' <= ol) dha Esperanta gramatyika skeleto ,kiu(a)n mi korektyis q^is ( = qhis namis) kiel ( ==> ko) ESPA GRAMATyIKO de estonta GLOBALA MOVO ESPE (nomo ==> namo “ESPE” estas ( ==> jas) pruntoprenyita el namo “ESPE-RANTO”) ,ekzemple ,por Esperanto (en tandemo kun Esperanto) ekde 15″08″2000+a j” (!!jam blej kolj ( ==> pli ol) 16 jiaroy = j”y) ekzistas tandema (filyina) artofaryita EsperanteEspa dialekto ,on ( <= sed) por la ( = dha = d^a) angla movo ekzyistas In^glis^eEspa dialekto ,por dha germana –+ Doy(o)chjeEspa ,por Franca –+ FranseEspa ,por Rusa –+ RuseEspa yi fo blej(lo) = yi f" b" ( (p)etinfanece = petinfanece = etinfanece) ,!!onlo ( <= nur) ununaciayn SENCAYN vortoyn de chjiu tandema dialekto necesos lerni etnojve ( = petnojve !!chji+tio estas genia ideo: !donu por chjiu nacia movo ( = liangv(eqh)o = langveq^o) propran “Esperanton”
..mi estas esperantisto (..I”m esperantist) ,sed mi opinias aliel:
Quel charabia !
Plutôt crever !!!!
It should be the main one. French and German should follow.
Why should French and German follow? What about Italian, Dutch, Spanish, Maltese, Greek, Portuguese etc… Aren’t they languages of the EU?
English is not just the language of the UK, but is a global language commonly used nowadays, even within EU countries. Sorry I do not agree that there should be a second language, for the purpose that it might imply that the EU might me giving importance to some languages more than others.
For practical reasons? And you didn’t mention any Slavic language in your list, I feel offended. You could have picked among Czech, Slovak, Slovenian, Polish, Croatian, Bulgarian, Russian even but nothing. I see where you stand.. Well no, not every language has the same importance. English is spoken by 550 million people as a native language plus more than 2 billion others can use it to communicate. Italian is not even spoken by many in Italy itself! Please… Let’s be smart and practical here..
Well, if it about millions of speakers, Portuguese and Spanish Just continue to be oficial languages. You can choose 2 slavic languages :) but without wars neither border discussions in the midle
Andrej Němec English is a natural choice because is neutral like let’s say Esperanto, but Italian is spoken in France, in Slovenia, In Croatia, in Malta, Corsica, Monaco and Switzerland and in Albania and Vatican , San Marino as well so no problem to be the alternative of English
Excuse me? Do you know in how many Countries French and German are spoken? And Russian? Including probably yourself?
French and German have less native speakers than Castilian and Portuguese. Try again!
In EUROPE. You try again. Otherwise we could consider also Arabic, seen the number of speakers both in our suburbs and worldwide..
Listen, no one cares about EU, or do you want to isolate EU? The point is to chose a working language that allows the EU to conect. The most obvious choice is english followed by castilian and portuguese. I alread speak the 3 of them, I will simply not waste time with french or useless german. And yes, I’d rather learn Arab, Mandarin or Hindu. Much more logic.
Your views which I respect. But at the moment there are 3 working languages in the EU institutions. English, French and German. And I speak the three of them. Hablo también español pero de hecho es el inglés de los pobres. Y creo que es más importante conectarse con los que tienen la pasta que con los campesinos mexicanos no?
Com português, castelhano e inglês eu falo com mais de 1 bilião de nativos em redor do mundo. With french and german I limited to some 200 million native speakers in europe, most of them not rich at all unlike what you claim. Y ya que hablamos de Mexico, te acuerdas del G20? Quién habla francés o alemán en el? Francia y Alemania. Que pobre…
Je pense que tu devrais commencer à apprendre le français. Je suis sûre que c’est pas assez difficile pour toi en tant que portugais..
E eu acho que devia começar por aprender português que é bem mais util. Afinal falamos simplesmente da língua mais falada do hemisfério sul. Anyway all this discussion is pointless. German will keep being an irrelevant language, french will keep being the less spoken out of the four european global languages and the EU will fall due to it’s corruption, greed and incompetence. So, see you outside the EU lad. ;)
Let’s start with stopping support for Portugal. A net beneficiary of EU funds since it joined. Maybe you can make your union with Brazil and happily live on Samba and transgender prostitution.
Oh my friend, please do stop your “support”. We are better off not being “beneficiary” of that usless institution of which your sorry excuse of a country lives off. Oh! Aren’t you a bigot little man?! By the way, it is your country that is famous for legalized prostitution, not mine nor Brazil. There are no shortage of trangenders in your country either.
Indeed you prefer to have illegal. Start giving us the money back then. It’s a lot of it I tell you. May I ask you why you’re on this forum?
Actually prostitution is not illegal, it is simply not legalized. Decriminalized is the word. Different judicial status lad. In other words, while your country lives off prostitutes and sexual tourism, mine tries to help prostitutes instead of acting like a pimp by charging them taxes as yours. About giving back money, what money would that be? The “founds”? Those for which you already charged an hefty bill in banking rescues, taxes taken to bussels, interests, the distruction of the primary and secondary sectors, poverty, loss of soveignty, legalized corruption under de name of “lobbying”, the use of our EEZ free of charge, etc? Right, those 89 billion in 30 years. A single portuguese anual budget requires more than that lad. Yeah, do not worry, we are paying for it, haven’t you heard? The last time my country did not pay it’s debts was in 1891. Your country was still a newborn. You do think too highly of yourselves…hahaha…No wonder the UK did the right choice. Why am I here? To remind you lot that your imperialistc views will clash against reality. Besides I don’t think it is fair for foreigners to be speaking about my future without me being at least present.
Can I say something in French? FUCK OFF!
The EU is the 4th R so how about just german
If this is what it takes to make it work German discipline is very welcome.
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In a way it already is
It already is. And as English is the defacto mean of Intl. communication there’s no sensible point in trying to make French or German more dominant. Eurocrates have already done enough damage with Brexit….
Well we majority of the world know English, you can do business in English even in China and Japan… in some fields (such as IT industry) everything new came on English first ….
That’s an interesting proposition post brexit. Shouldn’t an official language for the Union be the official language in at least one you member state that plans on sticking around past 2019
There is no logic in your statement, nor do you give an argument against it.
Arguments in favour do exist though:
1. English already is de facto world language.
2. With the UK having saved itself from the EU, choosing English would be free of any suspicion of favouring one country over another.
Ireland
Martin I am very sorry that the logic in my statement doesn’t satisfy you. I guess I will have to live my life with your opinion of me as lacking logic. It will be hard but I will manage. I wish you the best of luck in learning that conversations don’t get started with personal attacks on one cognitive skills, unless you want to give the impression you re a total dick. This is what the rest of the world refers to as politeness.
James good point
Ireland
Not really…for business and communication maybe..but it should be considered as an option for 2nd or 3rd language to be taught at schools..
God yes, please. It is so much simpler and makes an already expense wise bloated mechanism somewhat more manageable.
Yes. The only problem is that no country has English as main language… Living in Ireland it’s strange this, because no one speaks Gaelic but it’s the Irish official language.
But most people speak it.
It doesn’t matter that it is not first language in any country. At least not if you think nationalism-free.
Yes. The only problem is that no country has English as main language… Living in Ireland it’s strange this, because no one speaks Gaelic but it’s the Irish official language.
Yes. The only problem is that no country has English as main language… Living in Ireland it’s strange this, because no one speaks Gaelic but it’s the Irish official language.
Yes. The only problem is that no country has English as main language… Living in Ireland it’s strange this, because no one speaks Gaelic but it’s the Irish official language.
Yes. The only problem is that no country has English as main language… Living in Ireland it’s strange this, because no one speaks Gaelic but it’s the Irish official language.
Yes. The only problem is that no country has English as main language… Living in Ireland it’s strange this, because no one speaks Gaelic but it’s the Irish official language.
Official? No. Working? Yes.
Absolutely yes. That’s a no-brainer.
3 working languages is pure chaos and outside the EU institutions no one is speaking French.
Maybe France, Belgium and Lux…
Mário João Very small percentage of people. But the main point is that no one uses it in international conversation. Not professional, not private. Just the French don’t learn any other language and demand everybody has to use their language. And that is the difference between German and French. German is spoken by almost twice the number of people, but they simply do not expect anyone to speak it, while French try to force everybody.
French is spoken in Canada, Mauritius, some African countries, France, Belgium, Luxembourg…
James Edmonds Yes, but in Canada, they speak even better English and the rest of the named countries are of absolute no interested to 99% of people and business.
The only good argument for having a second language is that English is a very unprecise language. If you want to write laws and you want to be specific, English is a very bad language choice. So German would be much better.
England leaves the EU, so English is not preferable. French is hardly used. There remains only the precise German language :)
My language is much more precise than german and has much more native speakers as well. So does castilian and french (unlike what you claim). Why would I wast time with german? Better to start learning mandarin or arab. Far more relevant and useful than german will ever be.
José Bessa da Silva Your information is biased. German is spoken by 150 Mio. in Europe, French only by less than 100 Mio. Even English is only 180 Mio. So English and German are almost on par, while French is out of even site. French is basically only spoken by mother tongue speaker and because the French economy is not very attractive, at moment there is even a very steep rise in people learning German. French is only on the table because of historical reasons and they go back 300 years in time. Nothing for the 21. century.
In Europe the most spoken language is russian. I wouldn’t mind to learn russian. Shall we? Lad, no one cares what is spoken in Europe. Geopolitics is played world wide since the portuguese created the first global empire. You’re living in the middle ages. German is and will keep being an irrelevant local language. And I say irrelevant because Hindu and Mandarin are some of the other local languages as german, but there is no way german can aspire to compare itself with languages such as those. It’s like comparing a bug with an elephant.
José Bessa da Silva I was suggesting that we all use English a lingua franca.
No, not at all. English people should start learning languages as well.
Totally agree . I live in the uk and haven’t met a single English person so far who has mastered a second language
I speak five languages, speaking just one makea you single minded and if it is English, then English will always run over the rest and there won t be a balance. I don t see a problem in working with different languages. Everything can be discussed but not taken into extrems
I see plenty of English people who need to learn basic English before they even think about another language.
.
Why would we waste time, effort & money learning another European language when the world speaks English ?
If a second language is needed it should be Mandarin Chinese or Standard Mandarin.
said the totalitarian
I do hope Ivan speaks passable Mandarin.
Tobias Stricker, your figures are false: here are the 2018 figures worldwide:
English: 379 mio as a mother tongue, 753.3 mio as a second language, Spanish: 460 mio MT, 74.2 mio SL, French: 77.2 mio MT, 202.6 mio SL, Portuguese: 220.7 mio MT, 13.4 mio SL, German 76 mio MT, 56 mio SL
Nope . Especially after Brexit it shouldn’t. Most of us speak it anyway so it’s time to focus on another one. I’d say French, Spanish or German
Definitely not any of those!
My language has more native speaker than french or german. Why would I waste time learning those languages when you clearly excluded my language?
It should be Klingon. Who could possibly object to that?
Jose portuguese is a wonderful language but Brazil is not in the EU and Portugal is also not a major economy in the continent. I’m greek and would have loved it if greek was the official language but I also have to be realistic and suggest something pragmatic
Brazil is not the only country that speaks portuguese, german is still a useless language worldwide, french is still less spoken than my language and within the G20 my language is as represented as german or french. Pragmatic would be to know that the EU is going to fall and that the world does not care what the EU working languages are. No one will learn french or german, sorry…
Ben voyons… let’s make official the language of the only country that moved from Europe.
What about Malta and Ireland? Have they moved?
English is not the national language in Malta but an official one, so spoken when needed and not reflecting the country’s history and culture.
English is spoken in Ireland but Irish is its language.
You summarize the whole spirit.
Moreover, one official language for Europe cannot stand for all its National languages and diversity.
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We are leaving the pointless EU, not ‘Europe’.
Not as pointless as your anti E.U comment in this forum.
You don’t even participate to this debate.
Rejoy as you’re out and go to another forum may be?
If you had oars, you would row your country across the Atlantic. So you’re not European either.
Dylan Djavit
The page is called ‘debating Europe’ not debating the EU so why should I leave ?
But thank you for showing your hatred of free speech, its so very EU-European of you.
Such a rhetoric ! ” your hatred of free speech”, good one.
I let you speak but you don’t do much with this freedom I fear.
I just suggested you to go where you would find more friends happy to have left EU.
You still haven’t contributed to this debate by the way.
Dylan Djavit (The very definition of a troll)
You ignore the debate & instead use the opportunity to insult other users because you disagree with my views ?, that makes you the perfect troll comrade.
How much does Brussels pay you ?
https://order-order.com/2014/02/27/eu-spends-2-million-on-trolling-online-euroscpetics/
This is another good one too : first negate the debate (pointless E.U) try to get your adversary lose his means by accusing him (hatred for free speech, insulting other users) then move the debate to another topic (trolling).
From the beginning of this thread, I have expressed my views, gave points to back my opinion,didn’t insult anybody.
So far, you still haven’t contributed in any part to this debate. I am still waiting.
I wonder who is trolling here…
Dylan Djavit (The very definition of an internet troll)
Which part of the word ‘debate’ do you not understand comrade ?
Given your obvious hatred for any opinion that does not agree with yours maybe you should find an EU supporters page to post your vile comments on instead of one set up to exchange ideas.
Failing that I can only suggest you use the ‘ignore’ tab above my posts and return to your closed mind imaginary utopia.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/66m-migrants-waiting-cross-europe-africa-report/
The debate of this thread is “should English be the only official language in the E.U” you obviously understood that I think it shouldn’t because of brexit, the fact one official language for the whole E.U is reductive and the distinction between National and official language.
The only point you made are : E.U. is pointless and now a post about migrants.
Yes the “migrants issue” is a very important one but not in this debate, this very thread is not about it.
That’s why I suggested you to go to another forum.
I didn’t insult British for their referendum by the way, it might be a very clever choice many people have in mind judging from the heavy bureaucracy, stress on nations’ sovereignty, migration (indeed). I simply pointed at facts : G.B is now about to be out of this system (yet without massive popular consent but legally it stands).
Why do you still care about E.U if you just point out its pbs now you are away from it ?
Shall I remind that you still haven’t contributed to the debate whose subject I kindly reminded you above.
Comrade is an interesting choice : you must think I am a “vile” (your word) leftist (communist even) ready to accept anything that comes from E.U for the common good I guess. I am not. I m here to give my opinion, disagree with the one I don’t like and express why, after that if I can still have a cold beer with the one I disagree with, that will let me the impression we are European.
Esperanto?
That was actually a great idea, shame it never took off.
Because of the millions who already know this language right?
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Still makes me chuckle when someone says Esperanto, I’m guessing you are being ironic, right :)
Deutsch ?
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As long as Germany owns the EU they do not care what language you use.
All languages spoken in EU should be official, english included. The Republic of Irland didn’t leave EU.
Yes. Please. Don’t let stupid nationalistic sentiments make things unnecessarily difficult.
English is de facto World language. Nothing wrong with defaulting to that, it’s the only sane choice.
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What is the goal of the EU to become a Nation if its not ‘Nationalism’ ?
Like russian was in USSR, yeah!!!
NFW!!!
On paper, let it be all the languages of all member state. On reality, and everywhere else, English will be.
Because EU loves fictions on paper.
Yes, by all means.
We can t be forced to learn 2 or 3 foreign languages because some nations refuse to learn English.
One already international language is enough.
Well considering that UK has gone, no ,but all the world speaks English so yes
YES!!! Is the time to walk the path for a unique common language.
Non! Bitte nicht! No grazie!
Otherways it would be a nonsense.
Followed by a civilized language and by that I mean french.
NO!
Europe is not english self centred. Why should we use a language that is spoken by a nation who left EU? English is a business worldwide language, that’s all.
Malta and Ireland use english. You would do well to know the EU before stating with such certainty about it.
José Bessa da Silva There’s no need to argue about that. It is better to maintain an heterogeneous language environment, rather than put english as the only language used. Perhaps in my previous message, you got the idea that I want to expell english, that was not what I meant.
Gero D. Giunta
The goal of the EU has always been, one people – one nation – one leader with one border, one government, one currency, one army, etc which means you will also have one language, English.
It doesn’t matter what the 440 million people in the EU want.
No! Make Latin or Greek the official languages! We do not need another English colony!!!
Neither official nor Working Language. That would be the end of the EU. Besides it would violate the treaties. There would never be unanimit for a change of the treaties in that sense.
English should stay as a main language and it should be thought in every school in the EU on par with the native language of the country. Every country should study its own and the EU language so we can actually communicate between each other. About second or third language? I already answered that. Main for EU and every country has its own. If you put spanish or deutch.. well these countries wouldnt lift their fingers to study languages while the rest of the countries will have to study alot of languages and that would defeat the purpose.. English was chosen because its the easiest language in the world.
The EU is not a country. What we study in my nation is none of your business.
The EU aims to become a confederation. As such it needs a common language in order for us to understand each other and to be capable to work together.
What the EU aims will have to be voted by me. Being that I do not want any federation (we are already a confederation), what the EU aspires to be will be it’s demise. We already work together by the way. If you want to work in my country you’re very welcome, just learn our language. I’m not to be forced to learn another language so that you don’t have to make an effort to learn mine. The same way if I move to your country it is my responsability to learn your language instead of living there for 30 years speaking english to everyone.
By working together I meant something entirely different. EU working as one and a whole. Strong and independent. Not divided as it is now. We need to get rid of country nationalism and raise an european nationalism. Right now its only getting immigrants for no reason at all and every country in it wants to be a top priority. Equality is needed inside. Consolidation is needed inside. No border inside but a strong border out. By what you wrote I get that you are closed minded nationalist that thinks that theres his good country and the evil EU which is making us get immigrants and kills the nationalism. Thats what it does indeed but you aint thinking what it should be. United Europe is good for all of us. But thats a dream most people have.
Andrian Marinov
What will you do when the people reject your European Nationalism, invade them with Juncker’s army and force them to accept it ?
I’m a close minded nationalist and yet you want “european nationalism”? Can’t you see the irony in your argument? Do you take philosophy classes in your country? My problem with the EU is not immigrants, it’s politics. The EU is profoundly corrupt, undemocratic and brought nothing more to my nation other than poverty. No need to carry on. PS: I do not know where you live, but a “united europe” is certainly not what most people in my country want as any poll ever made shows…
When people reject it it means that they arent ready mentally to advance forward. Instead their mentality is making them stand still and prevent them from reachimg the next step of the evolution of civilisation. Divided countries -United continents -> united world. Thats how it is if we are to survive and continue to the stars. If that doesnt happen sooner or later the world will burn and humans will destroy themselves. The idea is to stop dividing among ourselves at first. Dont get me wrong Ivan, im also for “Bulgaria first” atm because thats how the broken version of what the EU should be is working like right now.
Irony? One is close minded nationalism and the other is open minded nationalism uniting us all under it.
And Im repeating myself for a 100 time, im not talking about the corrupted EU now, but about the EU what it should be. Step forward is a common language.
Open minded would be egalitariamism, world order, cooperation among humanity, etc. But that is not what you are proposing, on the contrary. “European Nationalism” is simply the same as normal nationalism but with no cultural, ethnic or factual basis to sustain it. So, sorry, in that case I just prefer my own nationality. I can see now that you are bulgarian. “Open minded” would be for you to start by embracing the syrian refugees that rush to your borders asking for salvation, you a bigot, racist and ilogical man…Go to the streets to feed the less fortunate instead of undemocratically telling me which language I should speak and call me “close minded” when I reject those imposition.
Andrian Marinov
You believe in an failed ideology created in the 1940’s to solve problems of the last century then criticise people for not looking forward because they disagree with your outdated dogma ?
Fascism, Nazism, Communism and now Europeanism, only the colour of the flag really changes.
You really need to join the 21st century, the world is far larger than the decaying EU.
Well we can divide Ivan. Till every human represents his own country because of small differences. We could even divide on appearance ignoring that we are all white. We can divide so much that every house would represent a different country or no countries at all on the whole planet would exist. Whats the difference between a white human and a white human? Im proposing that every country should continue forward as it is but also removing the country nationalism which like a cancer stops the world from uniting and continuing forward. And no, my dear portugal friend Jose, nationalism doesn’t mean forgetting or even putting your nationality aside. History of the different areas will stay, culture of the different areas also would stay. The only thing that is going to change is that we are going to stop hating each other because of our past and unite for the sole purpose of working together as one. Nationalism is a movement aiming to get people with similarities together. Its used against us and its self fueled right now. It could be used for the purpose of uniting our countries into one. What do we win if we are divided? Wars? Do you know that serbians are still taught to hate bulgarians even because we were always better then them and never betrayed them while they did countless timea? Why do they hate us when they engage into wars that they cannot win without treasonous acts? Why are Macedonians still taught in communistic-Serbian way that they are actually descendants of Alexander The Great and his greeko-thraco-illirian people and why in serbian way they are taught to hate us for imaginary things ? And again Jose, you get what I write wrong and then just showing me your own understanding of my ideas broken by your prism. Your first sentance is what im actually telling you.
That open minded nationalism is the actual place we need to go through to eventually get together with nothing dividing and no nationalities at all. Communism never existed in this world by the way. They only tried to get to communism through socialism and just ended up oppressing and killing people. And again Ivan, if people aint ready, they aint. But thats the way its supposed to be in order to represent the planet as a whole someday. If not today then tomorrow. If not tomorrow then after a century or millennia. Someday we will actually become one as we need to spread outside this planet and eventually meet another civilization. The thing that EU brings is corruption and illegal immigration from Africa and the Middle East – true. We should aim to change and remove the current order and and replace it, not destroy it. Divided countries, divided nations, divided people. That can always lead to war and only war. Nothing can stop a human to fight for “his own people” or for resources that his neighbour has that he doesn’t.
I’m English, and even I think that’s a ridiculous idea..
We should decide on as single language. I understand 5 languages, but it’s still a mess to work with all of them. Once we choose one, we can then introduce it in schools and offer free courses funded by EU so that everyone would learn it.
There is one and it’s called Esperanto
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98% of all schools in the Nations of the EU already teach English.
Νο
For sure not!!
English should by the world language…
people saying no…Are using English to say no and being understood by the others on this page. official language is a wrong term, let’s say working language instead. if it can save few euros on the budget i’m all for it. and get rid of the circus between strasbourg and brussels as well.
It already is and not only in EU. Trying to change facts is one of the silly things EU is working on.
As UK is leaving EU, it should be removed!
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Yet you say so in English, interesting.
Добре бе, Ivan Burrows, сега ти пиша на друг официален език в Европейския съюз, разбираш ли ме? За разлика от теб говоря повече от един език. Многознайко!
Galina Dimitrova Valcheva
Do you, why ?
The world speaks English so learning another European Language is utterly pointless.
Ivan, shut up. Is not respectful to play man to one woman. You point of view is very interesting but stupid!
Iliya Vesselinov (The very definition of a troll)
Thanks for the insult comrade, its a pity though its all you pro EU fanatics have left.
Ireland and Malta have also english official language
Obviously… In every country of Europe all communities learn English and the youngest population speak English all most so well as their mother tongue!! The biggest problem uk is leaving de UE!!
The EU is not a country and therefore it’s official languages are those official in it’s member states. It’s working language could be english (scrap french and german).
No, I don’t think so. It should be Italian. It’s easy, beautiful and belongs to a founding Member.
And pretty much useless in the EU and the rest of the world as well…lol
Easy one. EU is even more useless.
Italian should not become the official language of EU of course, there wouldn’t be any reason for that, and no other language should be, because we are an ensemble of cultures and not an Italian, a French or an anglo-saxon united country, we need multilingualism because we are a multicultural union, and language brings culture.
With that being said, telling us that Italian is useless? How can you say that? How can you think such a stupid thing. First NO LANGUAGE in EU is useless as long as there will be a country, no matter how small, that needs and wants to comunicate with said language as a Member State. Second Italian is the third most spoken language in EU after French and German for number of native speakers and it is the forth most studied language worldwide! I’m not even joking, look it up on google my dear José. How can you say, being a man from a small country, which normally receive little if not no consideration at all in the international scene, that my language, vehicle of centuries old literary culture studied by the whole West, millennia of food culture (the most enjoyed and the most famous and spread cuisine throughout the highest number of countries on this planet, before the French and the Japanese ones), international language for music, theatre, opera, sculpture and arts in general, is a useless language? The fact that Italian is not used in economic transitions and movements makes it useless? Really?
So millions of people decide to study Italian despite its usage is confined to the fine and liberal arts, and that does not tell anything about how a human being perceives a foreign language? Is Portuguese, spoken by more than double the number of native speakers of Italian thanks to Brazil, as important as Italian is in the world? No. No it is not. Does this fact makes you realise how stupid and offensive your statement was?
Maybe you should dig a little bit deeper into a culture, its language, its society and its importance in the world before declaring it as USELESS.
I couldn’t have said it better than this. Kudos to Andrea.
Sorry lad! Italian is useless. Your bla, bla, bla will not change that fact. No one speaks italian besides italians and their offspring. So, if you desagree with me fine, I will keep being able to speak portuguese around the world (you forgot quite a few countries), and you will have to use english to speak to me because no one in my nation dares to even think about learning italian as a foreign language because…well…because it is useless.
José Bessa da Silva i did not “forget” countries in which you can speak Portuguese, i did not mention them because they are less globally important than even Portugal, and we are talking about being useful aren’t we?
My bla bla bla is the truth mate, a language is not useful because a person in Portugal says that in Portugal they don’t dare to learn it because they are able to speak Portuguese in Angola, or for purely economical impact reasons. It is the fourth most learnt language in the world. 1English, 2French, 3Spanish, 4Italian, 5Chinese. More people on this planet study Italian than Mandarin Chinese. Here’s your fact. Period.
Yes, the usefulness of a language is measured by the number of it’s speakers. It does not matter if Bill Gates has 50 billion in is banking account, if he speaks italian he will have to learn english because italian is useless. Here’s another fact for you: madarin is a mandatory subject in Portugal. Italian is not even a choice. That is reality mate.
A usefulness of a language is measured by the number of its speakers is such SUCH a huge bullshit my western brother. Latin has not been spoken since around the late first century CE, and yet it stayed the most important language of the whole West, and more, until the XX century. A language importance depends on many facts, and it spreads in so many different fields. There is a reason why more people study Italian than German, and it is not economical, it is not to be a tourist in the world speaking Italian, it is not because Italy has more inhabitants than germanic countries, it is for its prestige my dear, and you can jump up and tap your feet on the ground as much as you want, but it does not change numbers. People love Italian and they study it. And we are talking millions, as i already said and won’t repeat.
And just for the record, in France you have the choice to study Italian in middle-school, high-school and university. Do you think French people do it because they want to sell computers and play on the stock market? I don’t think so, and yet, they do study it. Arts are not less important than economics. Are we still talking about this?
Things are getting personal, and that’s not good. My point was a bit simpler, basically Italian is easier to learn because it’s phonetic. It can be learnt easily by all EU members, The criteria I would set are rather those ones, not the number of speakers around the world.
Esperanto is even more simple and I can bet any computer can make up a language even more simple than esperanto. The point stands. All of them are useless because the only thing that really matters to become a Lingua Franca is the number of speakers.
That’s not the point AT ALL. The use of language provides an unfair advantage in transactions and negotiations, which, in the case of EU, would make France and Germany even heavier than they already are. Look, I wouldn’t have a problem to take up Portuguese, were it easier. It’s just a bloody hard language. Having worked with lots of Brazilians here in Rome when I used to be a jazz musician, I know what I mean. Italian is easier, and can be learnt in 6 months.
So, by your logic intead of givong the upper hand to the french and germans we should give the upper hand to italians. Nop, not logic at all. The fewer people you have to teach, the easier it will be and that means the most spoken languages are the best choices. PS: Portuguese is not a difficult language and english is way esier than italian…your own argument crumbles by itself.
Looks like you take things personally. So this is a useless conversation.
no – Brexit is Brexit :)
.
Yet you say so in English 8|
Ivan Burrows Bitte: der Ausstieg Großbritanniens aus der EU ist der Ausstieg Großbritanniens aus der EU. Zufrieden (happy)?
Weronika Natkaniec
We are very happy about leaving the pointless EU thanks :)
Majority of the most important achievements is financed by the richest country, the US, and consequently they are published in English. Those who want to use it must know the language. Second, it is important to note that English is the modern and easiest language to learn. Third, the whole world uses this language.
Brexit?
If you consider yourself European you should speak your language plus one or 2 others. English one of them of course because it allows to communicate with outside of the EU.
But I do not think making one language the only official one is a good idea. Languages are the vehicles of culture. If English only is made official we go towards a uniformity of culture which for Europe would be a great loss.
I am for multilinguism, because it adds up so much to what we are.
Agreed!! and languages should be taught YOUNG! The world would be a better place if we could all speak a number of languages :)
They left eu so no more english influence on eu life
Why do we need the EU anyway to speak our own languages?
For a start: native English speakers speak English. Some non native speakers also speak English, but many of them speak ‘Globish’, which passes for English but does not always make for clear communication. Second, the use of languages in EU meetings is not about cultural identity. These meetings serve to draw up legislation and rules that are directly applicable in each member state and therefore delegates are entitled to use their own language, so that the implications of the laws are clear.
Never!
Never
Through the upcoming separatism of the USA English won’t stay an international language and will be forgotten in future like Latin and French, which were spoken only by the upper class till a certain point of time. There are over 100 Mio native german speakers in the EU ( of 512 Mio in total ), in the most eastern European states it is the 2. language and the international reputation grows steadily. – German or Esperanto would be the best decision.
Germany Germany Germany ;)
1. Mandarin Chinese NATIVE: 873 million
2nd: 178 million
TOTAL: 1.051 billion
2. Hindi NATIVE: 370 million
2nd:120 million
TOTAL: 490 million
3. Spanish NATIVE: 350 million
2nd: 70 million
TOTAL: 420 million
4. English NATIVE: 340 million
TOTAL: 510 million
5. Arabic NATIVE: 206 million
2nd: 24 million
TOTAL: 230 million
[World Almanac est. total 255 million]
6. Portuguese NATIVE: 203 million
2nd: 10 million
TOTAL: 213 million
7. Bengali NATIVE: 196 million
TOTAL: 215 million
8. Russian NATIVE: 145 million
2nd: 110 million
TOTAL: 255 million
9. Japanese NATIVE: 126 million
2nd: 1 million
TOTAL: 127 million
10. German NATIVE: 101 million
2nd: 128 million
TOTAL: 229 million
it will be hard to learn japanese or mandarin or those others but think a but honey, there are more speakers of russian spanish portuguese
512 Mio people life in Europe darling. About 100 Mio speak it natively here in Europe. As I said 😅😘
It is about europe, not the world. You should check the headline first, before you try to prove me something ;*
dont make me mad
then still spanish
There are only about 40 Mio native Spanish speakers in Europe.
k
Definitely NO!
.
Like it or not English is the language of the EU, despite the nonsense Juncker says. Whether its the ‘only official’ language or not is irrelevant.
The posts on this page pretty much proves it.
Noo, better be Finish, Hungarian or Danish- much better sounding EU languages that u need 5 lives in a roll to learn only one of them! Of course it must be English!!! Anyways it’s already been the official lingua franca worldwide for decades now.
Yes, especially now, when Britain is leaving EU! :-D
guess not…
It’s doing well enough as an unofficial language. They aren’t learning Spanish in Japan, that’s for sure.
Abso-blooming-lutely! :-)
Esperanto as EU official language. Aussi facile que ça.
People will keep on speaking English – as we are doing so right now. For multiple reasons. Thinking of implementing a new official language is just silly.
The Greek language it should be the first and English the existing second. By birth right most of the European languages consist of Greek roots.
LoL…
Thank you
Kala…kai perimenis na se paroun sta sovara…..me tetia anakinosi telios mi pragmatissimi
Καλά ας με πάρουν στο ψιλό
Εσυ τι πιστεύεις και μην γράφεις greeklish pls.
Nikolas Lodakis it’s latin, all these languages consist, not greek.
Latin was before or after Greek language.
Do what you want, I continue to speak french!
Lol is getting interesting keep coming lol
No,must change
Nop
No,
that’s because feels like we are Americanized by their culture , and those who don’t have a better English knowledge, they could be rejected too.
#democrazialinguistica
Are you serious .. what an inappropriate question.
Are you joking? After the BREXIT, the English could not be considered as an official language of UE. No way!
Francesco Pica Giuseppe Fucile
All European languages should be official and have a legal status.
If the question is “should the English language be the main European lingua franca?” That’s not something that can be decided around a table: it just happens or not. Oh, wait! What language am I writing in right now?? ;)
Different languages, different culture, different point of view. And after Brexit, it sounds a joke.
The most important thing ia not the language, it is the feeling of union between Euro citizens. The economic problem and the terrorism have radicalize social policies, influenced in right hand economic policies and made profit to banks and multinationals.
EU is based mainly in economic terms, not in social terms. The most important is the basis, the structure: the citizens. If there is not a feeling of being European, a shared value, the EU is an expensive “joke”
Arguably, there is a case to be made that Brexit is a good reason in favour of English as the official language, as the number of people benefitting from a ‘native-speaker advantage’ will diminish significantly (just Ireland left, although they declared Gaelic as their official tongue), and it is the most widely spoken second language across the EU. But it probably makes much more sense to certain member states (ahem, France) to pay vast sums to train up 25,000+ EU staffers in a completely new language, rather than just accepting that English is the de facto lingua franca and getting on with it.
This and the fact that english is de-facto working language around the world, which will be especially helpful in dealing with China and USA. French is too impractical, German is politically and morally out of the question for most central europe and the French.
Mikołaj Miki Pønichtera not to mention, that german is also too impractical.
Anyway, I like to learn laguages, because they widen my ways of thought.
Nick how could you forget about Malta?!
Maltese.
and English: http://www.visitmalta.com/en/language
Like Ireland with Gaelic, they chose to make Maltese an official language of the EU. There’s a reason why English will no longer be an official EU language after Brexit. And the population is <500k - so my point about the native speaker advantage being massively diminished remains... ireland + malta = <10% of UK population.
thats all true but because two counties have English as their official language and it is the main language in all EU institutions this will never change!
But my point was that neither of these countries nominated English as its language at the EU..so as a result of not being nominated an official language of the EU, its neutrality places it as the most legitimate langue véhiculaire of the institutions.
i know i got your point ;) If there was a vote on that now in the council, they’d prob all change their mind and nominate English as official language..
Behave
English must be the only one.
Of course not ! Besides England is out now !
It’d save a lot of money – I think it should be Irish English )))
It doesn’t make sense if UK is leaving the UE for good.
Hello French Language!
It makes even more sense to leave English so that no language from the bloc is given any preference.
According to Wikipedia, English is known by 51% of the people in the EU, French only by 26% but German by 32% – so why French and not German?
Can you tell me how many peoples will speak french in 2050 than german in the world?
English
Why is it too much work for your people in Brussels to translate documents into all European languages?
No it’s easier to understand the language of the master… It helps to think like him!
Penso que sim!
Absolutely; english is the worlds “lingua franca”
Likke latin, french were in others times, languages come and go. Did you know you can get out from yhe best chineses universitys without kowning one word of english? I’m sure not! Slowly, the same thing is happening in India, from all english to hindi, strange, isn’t it?
If we speak in decades-centuries tendencies you are right. Who knows what the future will bring? But now, and it was what I was speaking, it makes absolutely no sense to take out english unless we want to lock ourselfes from the rest of the world
I’m sure as Portugese, you could speak with a brazilian, and I as French could speak with a Haitian, some others in Africa,we won’t be lock from the rest of the world!
Comme a portugais je peux parlez aussi français. la question cést la capacité de communiqué avec d’autres q’on parle pas notre langue. Dans ce moment cést l’anglais, dans l’avenir, qui va le savoir? Ce la question. Probablement le mandarin…
Yes English
I generally agree with Nick Pawley above on this one for efficiency and fairness reasons. Language is two things: a communication tool and a personal identity. The question is what is more ‘sustainable’ in the long term? Would the EU jeopardise itself as a community if members were not able to express part of their identity at central governance level? Is there a risk in reinforcing nationalistic sentiment or elitist politics if things go one way or the other? Obviously english is more efficient, and having many languages à la Babel is more beautiful in a way, but what are the possible long term unintended consequences of each approach?
The question is not whether English should be the official language “de jure,” this is irrelevant. English has become the official language “de facto”, and this is not only in Europe, but universally.
Did you know you can get out from yhe best chineses universitys without kowning one word of english? I’m sure not! Slowly, the same thing is happening in India, from all english to hindi, strange, isn’t it?
NO! Now that Britain is leaving I see that as a joke.!
But why do we continue to speak the devil’s language?
No , it’s called the “EU” !
It does not make sense this “question”. English is already the official and universal language in the business, academic, and scientific world. English is not just the universal language in the European Union, but also, the official language in our globalised world.
Did you know you can get out from yhe best chineses universitys without kowning one word of english? I’m sure not! Slowly, the same thing is happening in India, from all english to hindi, strange, isn’t it?
Yes.
The brits are about to leave; but they should left their most powerful “instrument” of communication: the english language.
PS: and mandarin should also be mandatory in the near future.
No, definitely not.
Ok. Why dagmar ?
Because Europe would loose part of its multi-cultural and multi-societal fabric.
Don’t you think english is already the usual common language in europe ?
It’s time for change!
no, diversity is so important
No. Let’s use Latin! :D
Or russian like in EUSSR?
English 1st
Pomak 2nd
This is a silly question ! English is the common denominador in most international transactions !
La question qui tue est posée en anglais, arrêtez donc cette babelisation de l’Europe, ça n’a jamais marché!
No seeing that they are leaving the EU.
The procedure, started in March, can dure 2 years max, like it’s written in Article 50…
09/01/2018 Pavlos Eleftheriadis, Professor of Public Law and a Fellow of Mansfield College at the University of Oxford, has responded to this comment.
NEVER, JAMAIS
Et pourtant…
Esperanto should have been the international language alongside indigenous languages, but English is the international language now.
I think schools should teach Spanish rather than French as a second language.
with over 700 000 000 peoples who will speak french in 2050 usually all days, you’re right…
16. Declaration on Article 55(2) of the Treaty on European Union
“The Conference considers that the possibility of producing translations of the Treaties in the languages mentioned in Article 55(2) contributes to fulfilling the objective of respecting the Union’s rich cultural and linguistic diversity as set forth in the fourth subparagraph of Article 3(3). In this context, the Conference confirms the attachment of the Union to the cultural diversity of Europe and the special attention it will continue to pay to these and other languages.”
Article 3
(ex Article 2 TEU)
1. The Union’s aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.
…
It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe’s cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.
Written in globish, loool
English. First it is one of the most spoken languages in the world, Second: in European history there was a sort of “obligation” to speak French and this back-fired (a bit the same idea for German), English is a neutral language for continental Europe therefore everyone has to learn it as second language and not one has the advantage of being his/her natural language.
We all have official cultural languages, which is fine.
But we do need one official business language.
The issue is not whether it should be English or not.
But we do need one official business language.
Have a vote and let’s get on with it.
Love, carrying, compassion. This should be the language nu matter the words. I guess is too much for some and so less for many.
Why English, the language of a leaving major country because of Brexit, “United” Kingdom, should be the only official language of the EU ?
What about French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Italian, …
« In varietate concordia » is the Motto of the European Union,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motto_of_the_European_Union
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_varietate_concordia
It expresses by itself the need to maintain and promote diversity, starting by the official languages of the EU according to the number of speakers of those languages not only in the EU but in the whole world.
Maintaining diversity and polyglotism is the expression of open minds In order to prevent the realisation of “1984” , the George Orwell’s nightmare,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_(roman)
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_(novela)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_(Roman)
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_(romanzo)
a continuous fight against mass uniformisation of the minds.
Why not also reduce the European Commission and European Vocabulary to 400 words to be sure that everybody understands and to reduce the costs of printing and archiving :(
Are you kidding us ?
No, certainly not.
Nein.
Why? Because they are leaving the EU?
along Romanian!
Please, we need a common language now!
English is understood by the majority of Europeans now, not in 20 years time.
We need that decision as soon as possible, enforced to be learned at school as a first language.
Think about peace and prosperity, not to be proud of your ethnicity or nationality, we all are just the same, human beings.
English has been taught for many years, at astronomical cost, and it has failed to become the common language, except for a small elite. Time to give Esperanto its chance – it is 10 times easier than English.
you must be kidding :D
english is not from continental europe. is from a island near europe. we shuld teach Latin in europe. and make election to elect the president of EU tonot have a dictator runing the EU.
Debating Europe is posting more and more senseless and useless articles. If there should be only one official language, it should be German, since the majority of Europeans speak the language.
too difficult to learn , especially for the latin part of europe , not to mention they have no entry point in culture: no movies , no music , not the internet… since this page is in english the proof is here!
No chance
english is languaje of the enemy
Nu, Russian!
Doru Beldiman In your mind, in your mind! Do you think once western europeans peoples have got a problem with Russia??? Seriously….
Doru Beldiman prea multe conturi fake pe aici ….
Those romanians want turkish, as official language
They should leave EU!
Alves Henriques what nationality are you? I think the English speaking nations have the right to know who their declared enemies are. As far as I know, the only declared enemy we have is ISIS.
Yes, invent an en enemy to exist.
From Portugal to Russia We are All Europeans. our enemy is clear, the foregner army occupation ,whatever it is, is the enemy. the occupation of the evil usa army need to end in europe, we in europe do not want the usa army occupation here. sovietic union ended the occupation in 1989, sinc the only occupiers are the evil usa army. in europe their is no english speaker nation only in island near by europe not in continental europe. EU dictatorship is working for the occupiers and comply with the agenda pro-globalist, the civilian people in usa are also victimes of the evil aipaic agenda made against civilians in usa that are also victimes of liars that send their childrens to non senc wars. USA is Doomed for all times for crimes against europe and our people. Europeans demand the end of occupation. enemy of europe is USA and the traitors. the radical islamic terrorism would not even existed if this occupation would not exist sinc terrorism is creation of CIA ISIS Mossad , evryone that have eyes can see it. the fake news cnn euronews will tell you how much europeans love usa occupation but is lies of the journalists that lie and you know it.
occupation of the usa army in europe need to end. why EU does not send the usa army back to usa. how can EU want an european army if the EU president is a DIctator and europe is under USA army occupation.
occupation ?? they are here for their allies you russian troll!!!
Yes allies….
Já ontem era tarde
Allies! US GO HOME!!!😂😂😂
Diaconu George Razvan from Portugal to Russia we are all europeans brothers and sisters. the only foregner Evil occupation is the one made by the evil USA army not welcomed not wanted, the main enemy of europe that chose the puppets politicians. even the civilians in usa are victimes of the zionism of aipaic. aipaic rule usa and then journalists say russia is problem , poor sheeps. awake europeans time to take back europe for europeans. no more evil occupation
Do you mean american?
Не!
Drastyczny nonsens
Sure the British leave but stay but leave…. and we are only to have to speak in English.
english is the only neutral language spoken worldwide, bur french and german and even russian are o.k too , most of the people from eastern Europe still speak and understand russian.
French is spoken on the five continents too, so worldwide as you say! Languages come and go, so simply!
English is not a “neutral” language it was also an imposed colonial language and in at least one country part of culutural genocide.
Micheal Pyner From the EU viewpoint it is neutral after the Brexit, because is official partially only in 3 member states. French too, German too. And English is very simple to learn and to use in difference of German and French.
English is an evolution of many different languages because Britain itself has had its own share of invaders. The Vikings, the Romans, the Normans – all have played their part in forming the English language plus many words have their origins in pre-Roman Gaul.
Do you mean 1/3 of the words are french? Since Guillaume the Conquer got the island in 1066?
Rémi Martin English is o.k. but not politically correct , so I propose Esperanto
A bit like russian during USSR?
Rémi Martin or Latin during the middle age
yes but not English English. Its a new form of trading language used across the globe but its not owned by any country. Brussels English is a part of the evolution of English. As is Berlin English and Hong Kong or Arabic English.
It’s called globish!
UK is not in EU…
UK is not even in europe main land.
No. The official language must be the one more extended in the world for EU members. That means Spanish. ;)
No! Swali or Esperanto.
Nein
No, but should be main do business language…
Yessss
Yes, of course. English is a simple language to learn to speak at a basic level with a simple verb structure and straight-forward grammar. however, it’s difficult to speak fluently because of the richness of the vocabulary and the fact that it doesn’t follow its own rules. Compared to German, the grammar is far easier (no gender or declensions) and the word order is more logical. Compared to French or other latin-based language, the verb structure is far simpler and, again, no gender problems. In reality, the question answers itself. English is the world’s favourite second language (as a lingua fraca) , the Americans speak it and won’t bother learning any other language except, maybe, Spanish. British-English is becoming a dialect in any case and the world tends to learn American-English.
Anglophones have a tendency not to learn other languages because of the all-pervasive presence of English. I worked in an EU environment (English was the working language) for some years and remember chairing a technical meeting where everyone there was a German-speaker. I offered the chance to do the meeting in German but they all preferred to do it in English. QED.
The language of the master… Of course!
Rémi Martin Oh, unfair! English is a pidgin language that evolved between 1066 and around 1300 so that the French Norman masters could communicate with their Anglo-Saxon serfs! The French were the masters! Pidgin languages take the best bits from their constituent parts and simplify, getting rid of everything not necessary.
A bit like russian during USSR? US GO HOME, is and will stay undistinct… Not so fine as french or german, sorry, languages come and go.
NO WAY. Only over our dead bodies. The French, the Italian, the German, the Italian, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Swedes, the Dutch, the Danes, the Finns, the Poles, etc won’t find it funny to be forced to learn a language that is only partly official in two post-Brexit EU countries Malta and Ireland… Esperanto SHOULD be the common language, and if any language should be chosen from the already-member states, it should be Italian (because it is the easiest and closest to Europe’s not-so-ancient Latin as lingua franca) or French (which is less easy and logical, but France is the father of the EU, the whole EU —-and by the way the UN as well– was a French idea). Peace
Esperanto sounds awful! xD
Zsolt Barczy, I agree. Esperanto should be the choice. It is a beautiful language, sounding like Italian, but much more regular and easy to learn.
yes, absolutely. we have to start to differentiate professional language (and should be english) and personal language (and that should be the official language of the country).
Definitely no
Imperialism of England and their…collonies??
No – I hate how we are lazy in this country when it comes with language. We should be learning other languages from when we are 3 or 4, not 11 – thats too late for most. My Auntie teaches English to 3/4 year olds in Germany. My friend from Romania started learning English when she was 2.
Greek.
Is not any more in EU!
Of course it will be, that’s if the EU survives of course.
Hell, no! Such a stupid idea!
Peter Antonov
After Brexit, it shouldn’t even be an official language!
Of course not!!!
Europe will be the most drammatic disaster of the world!
EU it’s neither a country, nor new Roman Empire. Respect individuals opinion!
Definitly! Even this post is wrote in english!
Greek is the language that everyone should speak in Europe (Europe is Greek name)
Yeap.
is there a choice!! People learn English not to talk to the British but to talk to each other.
Well, 40 years ago, French was what English is now.
Europe needs a common first language and can’t be English because that gives a great advantage to USA that, let’s not forget, wants to dismantle Europe.
40 years ago practically no one spoke euskera, catalán or gallego. Now everyone on those regions speaks those Languages.
That means that in 3 or four decades we can have a common language in Europe.
I believe anyone would agree that a common language have enormous advantages. But we disagree about the language that should be chosen.
If we choose based on history and culture, we need to choose Latin or Greek.
If we choose a language by the number of speakers, let’s remember that English is not the most spoken as a first language. Spanish is. In fact, it is the most spoken first language after Chinese.
English is only majority as second language and that can take only a decade to change. First languages takes a lot longer.
French used to be the language of diplomacy and was the most spoken second language before the Americans becoming a superpower but it is a difficult language to learning and wouldn’t be accepted by other EU countries that already resent the influence of France in Europe.
Yes, English is spoken in all countries of the world. For example, Airport, Hotel, Maritime, Internet. I think this is the simplest solution.
Internationalism über alles! Down with the language and indigenous ethnic diversity!
It should be latin.
No. Start learning more languages, lazy bums.
No it shouldn’t because when legislation is made, everyone has the right to have it drawn up in his/her native language. Otherwise native English speakers would have an unfair advantage
U.k. Will be out of E.U. so no more English.
Lol – they are not even in the EU. I would choose Greek for historical purposes (They invented Europe, they set the foundations of the western civilisation. plus, its a much more developed and rich language).
They? Did you mean “we”?
I meant the ppl that invented the language and all the sciences.I am just a poor excuse of a descendant in comparison.
The way we are going Turkish will be
Because Ireland is in the EU, otherwise English wouldn’t even be official.
Well, at least choose one, it is not possible to have more than 20 languages for anything that wants to be called “union”.
English is the most practical of course and would save millions on translators costs…I am multilingual and so are my children. This is fantastic as it prevents fanaticism from spreading! Non native speakers are now already the MAJORITY speakers of ENGLISH!
yo voto por el espanol. :)
I have not a Spanish keyboard and I can write ñ
No caerá esa breva. ;)
Yes for foreign affairs but within the union no it can remain like we have it now on the EU parliament they speak as they want…but for Europe to make international speech’s it should be English also for communicating between us Europeans it’s a language everybody speaks so it’s natural.
There are still companies looking for native speakers although it’s illegal in Europe. I saw people getting hired because they were native speakers but they weren’t even able to write down one sentence without several grammar and spelling mistakes. We should encourage people to learn languages and get to know the culture of other countries to facilitate integration. You can’t really get to know the others if don’t speak their language and we should fight native language “fascists”. Based on that English should absolutely not be the only official language in Europe. Besides people who speak several languages are smarter as per scientific researches.
No. Why? the english people do not want europe, so why?
of course not ! croatian should be ! (no disrespect for the croats tough)
Europe should be looking and helping Catalunya. Which kind of institution doesn’t say anything to a Country which is one of its Members and it’s forbiding a referèndum? If the EU is really seeking for citizens’ support and it aims to truly become a union of peoples it should be listening at catalan’s claim. We just want to vote! After that we can have a superficial dialogue about languages. #adeuespanya #adeueuropa #wewanttovote
in france is forbiten to ask for details on the 6 millions, and ur telling us we need more freedom because of a referedum?
Why? Ireland is a small country. No one else speaks English in the EU.
#Deverian comunicarse en español, es más fácil las noticias,negocios y inversiones.
Por mí estupendo, pero francamente América Latina es demasiado pobre para que el español tenga importancia en Europa. Europa respeta el dinero por encima de todo.
Se ve como pobre, pero hay atrazos, #SON ISOS que están renovando y depende de cada país innovar.
Digamos Venezuela tiene bastante #Petroleo,Brasil es un país grande y campeón en #SOCCER y Perú recién campeón mundial en #CHEFMUNDIAL.
En el momento en que el mundo hispano se equipare al anglosajón en riqueza (o lo supere), el español se tomará muy en serio en Europa. Antes no. Sé que es muy superficial, pero es que Europa es así. No por casualidad los idiomas que interesan aquí son de países grandes, poderosos y ricos.
Personalmente yo creo que el español tiene muchas ventajas como idioma de intercambio. Si bien puede resultar más complicado de hablar que el inglés, también es más fonético y por ende más fácil de escribir y de aprender mediante lectura. En el hemisferio occidental ,ya es básicamente lengua franca. Tiene una rica y extensa base literaria. Por otra parte, creo que el avance de América Latina es en sí importante de cara al futuro de la humanidad. Sin una América próspera y libre, la balanza se inclina irremediablemente hacia China, que, quieras que no, sigue siendo autoritaria a día de hoy. Además, fuera de España al menos ( xD ), el español, como el inglés, es políticamente neutral (el alemán, por ejemplo, no).
Pero lo dicho: en Europa se respeta una cosa por encima de cualquier otra: Don Dinero. La relevancia del español en el futuro dependerá de la relevancia que cobren los países hispanoamericanos. En el último decenio ha ido en aumento, pero le falta recorrido para equipararse al inglés, y en Europa si se quiere proponer una nueva lengua franca, el inglés es el objetivo a batir.
Better adopt Esperanto. If every country teach it we will have an European language. Adopting the language of a country that do not belong to European Union – EU? For God’s sake!
Frankly, I think English is the perfect language for the EU since Britain is leaving and therefore we will have no further say in EU affairs. This renders English neutral. Whatever language you choose will upset one of the others. It also makes it easier for the EU to trade with English speaking countries.
I don’t see why anyone should give up their own language. In Wales, for example, Welsh is widely taught alongside English. English is merely the common tongue.
A bit like russian during USSR…
It’s an important question. As it stands native English speakers are at a definite advantage in institutions like the European Parliament. You can see this in the parliamentary debates. Many MPs struggle to express complex ideas coherently. This is probably the number one issue, more than economics or anything else, that makes Europe feel disparate. People like Juncker or Tusk are strangers for most of us. They don’t mean anything, and they have no record. You cannot go directly to their homelands to read about their record, what different people have to say about them, what kind of things they have done, or to talk with people who are much more familiar with them, because it is all in a language you don’t understand. You have to rely on second-hand reports and translations. So bureaucrats in Brussels feel very distant and strange to most people in the EU, especially in the periphery, outside of the French and German speaking core. There is no direct engagement with European politics for this reason.
I don’t know the solution. Maybe it is just relying on English as a bridge. What little direct engagement we have now in European politics is basically taking place in English – like right here. I’m a native English speaker, so for me it’s very comfortable, but I don’t know if it’s the best way make the EU as inclusive as possible. Maybe it would be better for French and German to be co-official, as this covers more fluent speakers.
For the moment English is the de facto lingua franca in Europe. It remains to be seen whether this will continue to be the case after Brexit.
Jamais, jamas, nunca, wtf, no way…
A bit like russian during USSR…
No way that is why fortunes are paid to translators, and each member state should speak in their own language.
What a smart question! Of course not! Portuguese should be the only official language of the EU! That’s self evident!
I would vote Finnish. ;p
What a smart question! Of course not! Portuguese should be the only official language of the EU! That’s self evident!
What a smart question! Of course not! Portuguese should be the only official language of the EU! That’s self evident!
What a smart question! Of course not! Portuguese should be the only official language of the EU! That’s self evident!
What a smart question! Of course not! Portuguese should be the only official language of the EU! That’s self evident!
What a smart question! Of course not! Portuguese should be the only official language of the EU! That’s self evident!
Absolutly YES!
Whatever happened to Esperanto? Maybe its time has come
Esperanto as an active language is a subject even more dated and done than the original question here. Esperanto takes elements from various languages and seems to be international and uniting. I like the idea. Reality has shown that a language is more than the technique of transfer a message from A to B. There has to be a cultural aspect to it. Esperanto does not have it.
That’s stupid. The English just told them to get stuffed.
But Uncle Sam didn’t leave!
Uncle Sam? What EU country is that?
EU is aculturated enough already to make english the official language . Post something really important please.
Absolutely YES !
Português.
It is the common language used in EU with or without UK in EU. As long English is the common language used in IT and finance english will remain the principal common language . The EU should not have an official language . all 28 can be used .
Ok
Yes, it already is working language and lingua franca. However, it would be very odd to make it the only official language while after brexit it’ s not official language of any member state…should it be even one of the official languages at all?
Yes! It’s easy to learn and most of the world speaks it.
Yes. If there should be further integration, there must be one language.
Stupid question, my own view is that we should revive the celtic languages, most children of emigres from other eu countries will be bi lingual as a norm. slavic, romance, germanic but we need our celtic languages back.
Não!!
it would be a good idea that more people are able to speak English too!
it would be a good idea that more people are able to speak English too!
it would be a good idea that more people are able to speak English too!
it would be a good idea that more people are able to speak English too!
it would be a good idea that more people are able to speak English too!
it would be a good idea that more people are able to speak English too!
Shouldn’t even be one of them.
Brexit means brexit
Shouldn’t even be one of them.
Brexit means brexit
Shouldn’t even be one of them.
Brexit means brexit
Shouldn’t even be one of them.
Brexit means brexit
Shouldn’t even be one of them.
Brexit means brexit
Shouldn’t even be one of them.
Brexit means brexit
NO NO NO NO NO … and NO!!!!!!!!! What arrogance otherwise.
No. There is a difference between speaking a language and understanding a language. Just look at the leaked TTIP files – not even American and British English can communicate frictionlessly. What I mean to say is: Make one language official and you get a standardised way of communicating which inhibits constructive talks – even more.
Definitely not. It is the most widely spoken language and easy to learn, but we should respect the different European cultures and thus the different languages each of us speak as mother tongue. Speaking different languages can cause difficulties indeed, but if we support people learning several languages, not just the most popular ones, we can communicate equally well.
english is the languaje of the enemy
I do not think so. English might be widespread in the EU, but it is only the primary language of the UK, who are Brexiting anyways. SO English will soon have no real representation in European countries. To be exact, following that reasoning, it’s shouldn’t be an official language *at all*, let alone the only one.
No language should be the only official one in the European Union, because we are a diverse community. Letting a language eclipse all the others would ne absurd. Or so I think, anyways.
Hi, I’d like to share with you my opinion,
English is easy to learn (At least well enough to cope with basic communicational needs). Esperanto is even easier. The main pro of Esperanto is that it is more egalitarian, because it’s no one’s mother tongue. The main pro of English is that it’s already widely spoken. So far, with a bit of investment in promotion and diffusion Esperanto could gain acceptation and it would be a fair base for international/intercultural communication where every one would have the same level of difficulty (without considering individual natural skills for languages). On the other hand, after the Brexit, with the UK out of the figure. English would be egalitarian too, being on fair advantage over Esperanto.
Anyway, I like Esperanto and learning it smooths the way to learning any other tongues. I wouldn’t try to impose by law any language over others, in the long term, it have never worked. But for those who like learning languages, I’ll advise to learn Esperanto, it may no be useful yet, but at the end learning doesn’t have to be utilitarian as long as it is enjoyable.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Berni, you are right. I too advise people to study Esperanto, for the reasons you give. Those who say Esperanto gives access to no culture are completely wrong! They are merely proving that they have no experience in this area. Esperanto gives access to the cultures of all of its speakers, from over 120 countries. Culture is carried by people, not by mere words – in any language!
Its already the most common one
El español.
A strong no.
Our diversity is a value to protect. Cultural/language uniformity is fascistic.
Could be fascistic also to say “our diversity is a value to protect”
Wrong, we already have the diversity, inherent in the European peoples since the beginnings of European civilisation. It’s part of us, it *is* us.
Fascism is oppression.
Why english?? They are leaving!
You ask in English ?
The advantage of speaking several languages is that you can answer in the same one used for the question, get it??
You need it to do business the rest of the world
Yes, but the question is: Should english be the only official language?
Well… NO! England is leaving so why should we have ENGLISH as the ONLY official language????
To make business with Latin America you don’t need it.
Pamela Copetta Ossandón If everyone (as you do) speaks English why waste time, effort & money learning other languages ?
Pamela Copetta Ossandón Yes you do :)
Good luck! You’ll be considered a gringo 😂
Ivan Burrows Waste time LEARNING? That’s the problem with people who think like you. Remain stupid, and wasting time doing NOTHING.
It already is the de-facto language of the EU.
Hellenic should be the parallel official, SINCE everyone speaks the language actually.
There could be, european language
N O !!! What sort of joke is this!?¡
Chiquito´s joke
Yes. Off course.
Its an easy language to learn and the majority of people can already speak it. Nothing else makes any sense.
Using their native languages makes fully sense
If you had a point, we wouldnt be having this conversation.
of course NOT ! we are rich of our languages.
Yes, very rich, with around 50 just in Europe but trust me, majority don’t speak french. It is English that is used first when it comes to solve any business case with foreigners pal
sure I agree fully I am bilingual anyway. but the question is: should English be the ONLY OFFICIAL LANGUAGE … official languages could also be German, French, Italian, Polish… we could have 6 official languages… OK now I can foresee the fight over which ones should be OFFICIAL !!!! 🤣
Choose another one to debase.
Не
No! It should be mandatory in school’s as it does play an important part in daily life, but you can’t impose it as a mother language to everyone.
It’s the EU so they can impose anything they like.
Do they pay you to spam anti EU shit 24h/7? 😂
Wow Ivan you’re still trolling in here. Seems now your job is full time huh?
This is his full time job , and he puts in extra hours
Matt Czapliński You ignore the post and my comment and instead use the opportunity to insult ? lol, you are the very definition of a ‘troll’ comrade. But please continue, you are at least amusing :)
Ivan not only do you comment on everything EU , but you also comment on every other comment, everyone that follows up on this knows you already. You’re against the EU we get it.
Anatilde Alves You really hate free speech don’t you lol . Brussels must be so proud of you.
People throw around free speech as it’s a given right to say whatever. I care for free speech as much as the next person, what I don’t care for is extreme views.
Русский
Claro que não!
No, after Brexit no way…. Wir alle sprechen Deutsch :) Heil Merkel und Tusk :(
Ελληνικά ούτως ή άλλως όλοι μιλάνε ελληνικά…
No. Although running the EU is costlier with multiple official languages, it also makes it more accessible to its own citizens. Which is the point of democratic governance in the first place.
I’m all for efficiency, but this seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It’s already the working business language and most common second language, don’t want to start pissing people off for no good reason.
No, french, german, spanish, polish, etc.. are all candidates, heck the official language could be latin wouldnt That be cool… No i think the EU should focus 100% on language diversity, its what Will make or break the union, english is the easy way, and im not saying not teach english, but lets rise above the crowd, lets innovate, for example put as goal That by 2050 every European citizen under 40 speaks atleast 3 EU languages (not including english) forcing language classes will also increase population intelligence, double win!!! Lets be creative and ambitious
Latin would be wayyyy cool !
forcing classes to foster creativity seems contradictory. Four languages for every citizen? A person in vocational education trying to learn their craft, would be forced to learn 4 languages which they will forget within the first 5 years of working? Seems like a lot of wasted energy and potential. Diversity is beautiful, but it is also an obstacle. If we are to make a union, citizens will have to understand their representatives in the world. When Juncker’s and Tusk’s successors address the Union, its citizens should understand what the person is saying. To be able to internalise the words, citizens should be very familiar to the language their leaders address the Union in. Only then, can a message appeal to European citizens from the south, east, north and west alike.
Well I do think the point is to find something in between. Just to shed some light on the citizens side, in a Eurobaremeter from 2012 81% of Europeans said that all languages in Europe should be treated equally, and at the same time 69% said that Europeans should be able to speak a common language. It’s not about efficiency OR diversity, it’s about both of them, finding a balance in between. Its not by chance that the motto of the EU is “United in diversity”. Also bear in mind that a proposal like this already exists in the EU, with the Barcelona objective from 2001 stating that Europeans should be able to speak 2 foreign languages apart from their mother tongue.
Good luck on learning german or french 😂
An effective way to combat Globish – It’s not really English – hegemony, but be practical, would be to make English the second foreign language learned at school in the 27. The first could be any other language. This could protect diversity, a key cultural principle for the EU. Frances Myers
Ni de coña!
Inglaterra ya no es Europa.
El español seria mejor opcion.
Mais bien sûr !
Stupid
Thanks.
Português :P
Of course not. Why not a neutral language? Like Esperanto or Latin?
Because Latin is a dead language and Esperanto is a joke made up language maybe ?
Subtitles exist for a reason
Why?!
NO no no no
waaaaa… fucking it…!
waaaaa… fucking it…!
waaaaa… fucking it…!
És palerma ou estás marado da pinha?
They left, so no need
Well, but they left us with the Language we all understand, I am sure ? …
Yea, that would be great. Do it :)
NOOOOO, French should be the only one!
No way ! Why should it ?
No way. Multilingualism is beautiful, and so are the 24 official languages of the EU.
Certainly no. We are united in diversity. If so then at least make it something special like esperanto :D
Then why did you say so in English ?
It shouldn’t : You everyone “should ” speak several languages. English should continue to be a key language for every reason… Anyway anything but German.
The people asking this questions are nuts!
Si!
You europeists are a bloody Orwellian nightmare
Asmeniskai,visos kalbos idomios ir grazios,svarbiausia apie ka kalbam. Nepamirskite,kad yra zmoniu,kurie neturi sios dovanos,taciau ir su jais susikalbame. Kiekvienas mylekite savo kalba,tarme ir sali ,kurioje gyvenate. Kalbeti bet kuria kalba ne problema,galime rasyti,galime skaityti,galime bendrauti. Tai ir sakau,kalbesiu lietuviu kalba,zemaiciu tarme. Kitaip uz ka algas gaus vertejai.
Personim i men te tale lingas se interesan id bel, wa vez se maj se wa nu dez. Rumene te je ste liente we av ne di indàv, pur nu vok lo os. Talun liam siu linga, dialèkt id de land wo un ʒiv. Voko eni linga se ne u problèm, nu moz skrivo, nu moz liso, nu moz komuniko. Da sin, i ve voko Lituvi in de Ʒemaiti dialèkt. Altem tradutore ve vido pajen.
Yes, and save tons of taxpayers money.
Well said.
English has become the lingua franca as it is the official language of many countries even as a second language. It is going to be neutral now as UK is leaving and so there is no preference to any member state. It will save a lot of money.
I have an idea…why doesn’t the EU purchase exclusive rights to use English as the official language for about…let’s say 40 billion? Us English don’t use it proper now as we be fluent in talking bollocks.
It is already the official language in the business world.
I personally do not care, as I am multilingual, comfortable in (American) English, Swedish and German and conversant in Spanish and Russian in addition to my native Polish. English seems to be the most widely known of all European languages and consequently I use it more than 50% of the time. But it gives some Brits, who soon will be outside EU, a false sense of superiority, and that is not fair, so no, English only seems not to be a good idea.
Personim i men te tale lingas se interesan id bel, wa vez se maj se wa nu dez. Rumene te je ste liente we av ne di indàv, pur nu vok lo os. Talun liam siu linga, dialèkt id de land wo un ʒiv. Voko eni linga se ne u problèm, nu moz skrivo, nu moz liso, nu moz komuniko. Da sin, i ve voko Lituvi in de Ʒemaiti dialèkt. Altem tradutore ve vido pajen.
I didn’t intend to post my comment twice. I simply posted my answer to the wrong person. What are we supposed to do in this case ?
why? They aren’t even EU
No thanks!
Not of course. Is that even question?
No….and why do you keep asking the same question over and over again…?
Yes. The fact that the Brits are leaving makes this even more poignant. Now it’s a true lingua franca since it’s no-one’s mother tongue. Why should some EU citizens be served in their mother tongue and some not? Both the scientific literature and correspondence as well as business are conducted mainly (if not solely in English). People can speak whatever language they want on the national level and in the private sphere but it would be more efficient to have offifcial language on the EU level, preferably English.
Absolutly not!! We are over 500 million people and English is only spoken by 70 million in the EU. Moreover, the UK will leave the EU in 2019 so there is no point in making official a language which is going to be spoken by less than 15 million people in the EU (and only official in a pair of small countries). So, it’ s better to keep the statu quo in this aspect.
yes !!!! it would solve many problems
Nein. Es sollten aber in allen Ländern mehrere EU Sprachen gelernt und gesprochen werden.
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaão!
English & French
Ten
it is the international language de facto, so, obvious answer
Yes, one common language for all Europeans, English it’s allready there.
No, and i want the Russian as well
Macedonian! :D
One of the barrier of the uniformity in Europe.
Claro que não.
Ya know what? If there is to be one language, I vote for Maltese. Or how about Irish Gaelic? What, why don’t I hear the enthusiasm? Those who advocate for one language are mostly English speakers or others whose language is one of the more popular ones. Guess what? Not everybody speaks English to any degree of fluency. So good for you that you do but many people will never learn because of a variety of factors. Should they be second-class citizens then? Let’s then all learn Maltese or Gaelic. That way almost nobody will get preferential treatment except for a small number of people who can speak these languages.
YESSSSSSSSSS.
For sure, not!!
????…. Não, claro
I don’t get the question here. Is it being asked if we want the EU to legislate language use?
NO. And I am a native English speaker.
(1) Fact: Most English that is spoken across the EU is bad, because –
(2) Fact: It is easy to blab a bit in English, but it is very difficult to express complex thoughts precisely, because English is grammatically fuzzy and lexically often vague. German has a more complex grammar, but once you have mastered it, there are no misunderstandings. French is in between these two languages.
(3) Britain is leaving the EU, and it should not be rewarded for its selfishness.
(4) Using English as the language of the EU means bowing to the power of the USA. English is not really the language of Britain (see the practice of spelling, idiomatic use, etc. across the EU), but of Trumpland.
(5) Along with language comes political influence (also through news media, etc.). Europe should finally become independent of the USA.
“… one study with a sample of Francophone children found that just 150 hours of Esperantic education resulted in the same level of proficiency as 1,000 hours of Italian, 1,500 hours of English, and 2,000 hours of German — making Esperanto an average of 10 times faster to learn than these natural languages.”
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-learn-esperanto-special-feature/
I would vote for Deutsch! why?
most spoken* language in EU
biggest economy of EU
if you know it, you get jobbbs !
*English has higher 2nd speakers
well how about chinese? ha? it has equal (if no more) speakers toEnglish.
while UK is not in EU? and we considering English, then we should also consider Chinese!
either German, or German and French together! no English or Amerikan, entschuldigung brits!
I think that Patroulla’s policy that EU citizens should learn as many EU official languages as possible is utterly delusional and lacking any practical or economic sence. EU would be much better place to live if every citizen learned properly one common language alongside their native one, rather than many but very poorly. EU will prosper if educational emphasis are placed on science, medicine, physics, IT… rather than on teaching each citizen multiple languages against their interests. There are people that are passionate about languages. That’s fine. Let them develop them. But why everyone else should be forced to do so to the detriment of their own passions, like physics for example. I want to see less lunnies in the commission and more pragmatists.
no non nein не нестопанска ne niet μη nem
?
to the question: should English be the ONLY official language in the EU, I reply NO 🤣 …and you, what do you think?
Frankie Now you have asked in the only language of the EU people can understand you. Thanks for that. 8|
ah! je peux répondre en français si vous voulez… ich kann auch auf deutsch antworten, wenn das für Sie besser ist.
Frankie ?
Oh the ridicule
Klaus And in French please ?
https://www.thelocal.fr/20160330/france-home-to-more-eurosceptics-than-the-uk
Ahahah nice try but in Greek the word “μη” is something like “don’t” but, actually, the word “no” is “όχι” 👍🤗🤗
Well, it would cut down the cost of having so many official languages that’s the pros. However it wouldn’t allow the vast majority of European citizens to participate in EU politics nor observing the current political situation. Also it is already difficult for people to read all those new legislations even in their own languages. Secondly, it is not the language of any of EU country except Malta (I’m not counting Britain), so why else would we need to adopt it? It’s ok to have it as a second or working language but never as a primary one. It would be discriminative.
Ireland? Let’s be honest … what language are we using here to communiucate? working language nr1!by far!
True! Sorry, I forgot to mention. It’s still less then 2 % (they have together approx 5-6 mln of people) of all European citizens in total, who speak English as their native language. Even though there were more, it wouldn’t be any good for European cultures and their heritage to have just one language as the official one.
Official or not English is the only language of the EU. Call it a parting gift from the British people :)
we’ll just say it’s from Ireland , thank you very much!
Diaconu That’s cultural appropriation comrade lol, although NI is part of the UK so I’ll let you off. 8|
Thank you. Judging by what passes for English in the UK these days, I’d wager that within a century it will be entirely unintelligible to the rest of the world anyway. 😉
Michael Would you prefer German ?
‘Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer’ maybe ?
“gift” in German means “poison” 😁😁😁
Frankie Then I give you the ‘gift’ of the EU 8|
.
In the language of the EU ‘Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer’ translates to ‘One People, One Nation, One Leader’, which is the accepted goal of the EU. Enjoy 8|
Ivan yes
Klaus
Don’t worry comrade, the self induced migrant crisis will put an end to the failed antidemocratic EU experiment 8|
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/most-europeans-want-muslim-ban-immigration-control-middle-east-countries-syria-iran-iraq-poll-a7567301.html
Xenofobia, não, obrigado.
Xenophobia, no, thank you.
Manuel – Nope, still double Dutch to me comrade 8|
It isn’t english, it’s american! Uncle Sam is ruling EU, who else?
Rémi They like to think so. 8|
YES! Maybe is too early, but due Beatles and other, due Hollywood but finally due informatics, computers english became first.
Of course we have new mechanisms to translate very easy, but finally the problem is how could be english the oficial language for UE, without the Shakespeare’s country :)
Don’t worry, the EU won’t be around long enough for it to be a problem. :)
https://www.ft.com/content/97213cb8-68aa-11e8-8cf3-0c230fa67aec
Ivan YES, IT means to be like you say. This because couldn’t the same rules in so diferent countries, reach and poor.
Mandatory as secundairy language.
Example: for belgium IT would either be flemish or french then english
Lingua franca, one may turn twist and shape it arround it simply is what it is
I would say first language. Then you can keep your local language to communicate with your local community
Which is harder to implement and results in far more complications.
Such (if necessary) could be strived for after that such is properly integrated as the official secundairy language.
Then such would be easier
Absolutely no.
A língua oficial deveria ser uma lingua de um estado membro. Poderia ser o francês, o espanhol ou o português, porque são línguas de Estados membros e são das mais faladas em todo o mundo. A UE não precisa de uma língua estrangeira.
The official language should be a language of a member state. It could be French, Spanish or Portuguese, because they are languages of member states and are among the most widely spoken around the world. The EU does not need a foreign language.
Good luck convincing the Polish, French, Hungarians, etc that their new ‘enforced’ language will be German comrade. 8|
Ivan
Lamento muito que o Reino Unido tenha abandonado a UE. Tenho dúvidas que tenha sido uma decisão genuína da maioria do Povo Britânico. Penso que os resultados do referendo do brexit foram objecto de manipulação ao serviço do KGB de Putin. Não duvido que o Reino Unido é essencial para a Europa mas ele também precisa da Europa. Há uma civilização ocidental à qual todos pertencemos. Ela está em risco. Nós temos o dever de a defender quanto mais não seja para honrar a memória dos nossos antepassados que no la legaram. Cumprimentos Ivan.
I am very sorry that the UK has abandoned the EU. I doubt it was a genuine decision by the majority of the British people. I think the results of the brexit referendum have been manipulated by Putin’s KGB service. I have no doubt that the United Kingdom is essential for Europe, but it also needs Europe. There’s a western civilization we all belong to. She’s at risk. We have a duty to defend it if only to honor the memory of our ancestors at la bequeathed. Greetings Ivan.
No. This is a debate Economy vs. Culture.
Nao! No.
Why? Only a small country speaks it. And most of those also speak Gaelic
No! After Brexit, it will lose importance. The other languages should be valued. The EU educational and scientific programmes like Erasmus and Comenius shouldn’t be implemented in the UK anymore but in the EU member states instead.
Dry your eyes dear 😂
Irene Yet you say so in English & clearly you do not know that being in the EU is NOT a prerequisite for being in the propaganda programs of Erasmus, etc. Like all EU fanatics you are delusional comrade 8|
Ivan Exactly! It shows clearly that you want to take advantage of all the EU benefits! You just have nothing to give to the other European countries or citizens. You say you want the UK to be great again. But you were great when you left your land to exploit other lands and people. It was with the wealth of other territories that
you built the greatness of your empire. Just to remind you that the British are the ones who reject Europe and not Europe that rejects the UK.
Irene The EU benefits of mass unemployment, mass migration and destroyed economies ? No thanks you can keep them & we did not reject ‘Europe’, we rejected the antidemocratic control of our country by followers of an outdated and corrupt ideology, namely the EU . But thank you for using the only language that really matters 8|
Tell me, how does it feel to be owned by Berlin ?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/22/germany-is-quietly-building-a-european-army-under-its-command/
Ivan Not all the British think the way you do! I think that in today’s world, Europe should build strong ties and not destroy them. The UK should remain and cooperate to redefine the EU and make it better and strong. That’s what I believe in.
Ivan The only language that really matters? What an arrogance! People who use only one language are amost illiterate in globalisation times.
No, they should speak the language of their masters – German.
You are right, unfortunately!
Not the only official language, but the main language of work for practical reasons.
Already is. Next question pls
I wonder if the EU could take inspiration from other Non EU countries to create something unique. In Canada they have embraced bilingualism while in Australia where the push to be a republic is still strong they still recognise the linguistic worth of English as a world tool. Or perhaps the EU could take heart from New Zealand which is English speaking but is promoting Maori and other indigenous Pacific languages. There are definitely some beautiful languages in Europe which need to be protected :)
English can’t be the European language cause it’s the a world language.
Identities grow through seggregating from a different group.
So if you had English as the EU language it wouldn’t help a strong European identity to emerge. You are no different from a yank, Brit, Australian, Canadian or Nigerian.
The EU should go with Interlingua or another simplified easy to learn language that is based on either Latin or Greek. Maybe even have experts develop a new one.
1.Only those two have influenced most cultures in the EU and can therefor claim to represent a potential European nation.
2.It would create a strong identity as this language is only spoken in Europe and would make the EU the legitimate successor to Rome or ancient Greece
salutos ba totos.
eske nosos posiblan dialogar internacionamente en isa europo, ma sin necesitar la aprendasiono de la angliko?
ui.
prokue la modelo ja eksistan: la eurosimilo (ou euroklono). por kueso vosos konprenan jeneralmente kuesta mesajo, fagata via la ikuso.
ni la esperanto, ni la ido, ni la ikuso, ni la interlinguo, ni la novialo, ni la intalo, ni la universalgloto, ni la linguo franka nova, ecetera, tenan la monopolo de la komunikasiono internaciona facila. sinplamente, usar pe la vokabularo plus internacionata, kon ortografio konpletamente fonetika mater la alfabeto latina, kon regulos sinplas, klaras, lojikas ei sen eksepsionos sur formologio (morfologio) ei sur sintakso, donan pe la soluciono. non eksistan una unika formo de realar pe kuesta modelo, sino multas formos, multas modelos. ma itos, naturamente, esan tre similas mutuamente.
vosos posiblan, sin esforco granda, respondar ta mio via la ikuso. ou via la intalo, la linguo franka nova, ecetera.
vosos konprenan aki mia mesajo, eske non?
amikamente, fa isula alexandro xaviero kasanovo domingo, imeilo trigrupo @ yahoo . es (trigrupo arobo yahoo punto es).
Tiu lingvo jam ekzistas , ĝi estas Esperanto.
eske nosos posiblan dialogar internacionamente en isa europo, ma sin necesitar la aprendasiono de la angliko?
ui.
prokue la modelo ja eksistan: la eurosimilo (ou euroklono). por kueso vosos konprenan jeneralmente kuesta mesajo, fagata via la ikuso.
ni la esperanto, ni la ido, ni la ikuso, ni la interlinguo, ni la novialo, ni la intalo, ni la universalgloto, ni la linguo franka nova, ecetera, tenan la monopolo de la komunikasiono internaciona facila. sinplamente, usar pe la vokabularo plus internacionata, kon ortografio konpletamente fonetika mater la alfabeto latina, kon regulos sinplas, klaras, lojikas ei sen eksepsionos sur formologio (morfologio) ei sur sintakso, donan pe la soluciono. non eksistan una unika formo de realar pe kuesta modelo, sino multas formos, multas modelos. ma itos, naturamente, esan tre similas mutuamente.
vosos posiblan, sin esforco granda, respondar ta mio via la ikuso. ou via la intalo, la linguo franka nova, ecetera.
vosos konprenan aki mia mesajo, eske non?
amikamente, fa isula alexandro xaviero kasanovo domingo, imeilo trigrupo @ yahoo . es (trigrupo arobo yahoo punto es).
salutos ba totos.
eske nosos posiblan dialogar internacionamente en isa europo, ma sin necesitar la aprendasiono de la angliko?
ui.
prokue la modelo ja eksistan: la eurosimilo (ou euroklono). por kueso vosos konprenan jeneralmente kuesta mesajo, fagata via la ikuso.
ni la esperanto, ni la ido, ni la ikuso, ni la interlinguo, ni la novialo, ni la intalo, ni la universalgloto, ni la linguo franka nova, ecetera, tenan la monopolo de la komunikasiono internaciona facila. sinplamente, usar pe la vokabularo plus internacionata, kon ortografio konpletamente fonetika mater la alfabeto latina, kon regulos sinplas, klaras, lojikas ei sen eksepsionos sur formologio (morfologio) ei sur sintakso, donan pe la soluciono. non eksistan una unika formo de realar pe kuesta modelo, sino multas formos, multas modelos. ma itos, naturamente, esan tre similas mutuamente.
vosos posiblan, sin esforco granda, respondar ta mio via la ikuso. ou via la intalo, la linguo franka nova, ecetera.
vosos konprenan aki mia mesajo, eske non?
amikamente, fa isula alexandro xaviero kasanovo domingo, imeilo trigrupo @ yahoo . es (trigrupo arobo yahoo punto es).
i do agree that English no meter where are you going is useful, if it’s work that you are going to/ place to leave!
but, just think about you are in the position of those who does not speaking English, and it’s much comfortable to speak in your language and know that everybody will understand you…
in one hand: yes it’s much easier to just make everyone speaking one general language so everyone could have better opportunity to speak with each other
in the other hand: people will fill uncomfortable with the fact that they are not speaking their language. as much languages you now as better it is for your self by being in other places around the world….
if you think about replying me here about.. who says that the other people would feel comfortable with the fact that they need to learn other languages which can be allot in the same way.. you are right! but before then think about replying..
you must listen, imagine you are that Spanish man which is easier for him to speak on his language. and by talking about know more languages to make others and your self comfortable with your self, i mean the most spoken languages in the world so it’s is not that much..
have a great day ;)
and i’m speaking/ writing in English because it’s easier for me and because i used to learn that language, of course i would like my language to be spoken here, but it’s not one of this spoken languages around the world isn’t it?
Not one language. English of course but also german, french, spanish, italian, etc. With modern tools it is easy to translate. People should learn as many languages as possible. When you travel to France, speaking french, to Italy speaking italian, to the UK, even after Brexit, to speak english. Speaking seberal languages is a prove of education.
But are
Nur Esperanton eblas lerni la plejparto. Kaj ĉar ĝi estas tiel facila ĝi ne mortigus la naciajn lingvojn.
Iuj asertas, ke la angla gramatiko estas simpla.
Nu, la Esperanta gramatiko havas 16 regulojn por ĉio.
La angla havas nur unu regulon… por ĉiu aparta vorto — do entute centmilojn. :-)
Komencante ĉe la prononcado, oni jam spertas la terurajn malfacilaĵojn de la angla gramatiko. Vidu ekzemple https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw
Mi instruas la usonan anglan ekde multaj jaroj. Mi doktoriĝis en la fako Edukaj Sciencoj kun doktorverko bazita sur mia unujara esploroj pri fremdaj studentoj de la angla lingvo en Usono. Mi sekvis la progreson de 46 studentoj. De ĉiuj nur unu povis paroli sufiĉe bone por sukcesi en la exameno de la angla lingvo uzata en tiu universitato. Jes, kelkaj inter ili povis babili en la angla sed nur unu komprenis kaj sin esprimis sur universitata nivelo.
Iu asertis, ke la angla gramatiko estas tre simpla.
Nu, la Esperanta gramatiko havas 16 regulojn. Unu el tiuj reguloj temas pri la prononcado: en Esperanto ĉiu litero estas ĉiam same prononcata.
Pri la prononco de la angla vidu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw&t=42s
Konkludo: la angla gramatiko havas nur 1 regulon… por ĉiu aparta vorto, do entute multajn milojn.
La aserto, ke la angla gramatiko estas simpla, simple estas… fabelo.
Iu asertis, ke la angla gramatiko estas tre simpla.
Nu, la Esperanta gramatiko havas 16 regulojn. Unu el tiuj reguloj temas pri la prononcado: en Esperanto ĉiu litero estas ĉiam same prononcata.
Pri la prononco de la angla vidu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw&t=42s
Konkludo: la angla gramatiko havas nur 1 regulon… por ĉiu aparta vorto, do entute multajn milojn.
La aserto, ke la angla gramatiko estas simpla, simple estas… fabelo.
Iu asertis, ke la angla gramatiko estas tre simpla.
Nu, la Esperanta gramatiko havas 16 regulojn. Unu el tiuj reguloj (la 9a el 16) temas pri la prononcado: en Esperanto ĉiu litero estas ĉiam same prononcata.
Pri la prononco de la angla vidu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw&t=42s
Konkludo: la angla gramatiko havas nur 1 regulon… por ĉiu aparta vorto, do entute multajn milojn.
La aserto, ke la angla gramatiko estas simpla, simple estas… fabelo.
For those, who not yet understand Esperanto, here the translation into English (with some help of Google Translate):
Someone claimed that English grammar is very simple.
Well, Esperanto grammar has 16 rules. One of these rules (the 9th of the 16) is about the pronunciation: in Esperanto every letter is always pronounced the same way.
About the pronunciation of English see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw&t=42s
Conclusion: English grammar has only 1 rule … for each particular word, so altogether many thousands.
The affirmation that English grammar is simple, it is simply … a myth.
Yes!
English should be the only official language of the EU!
YES, the NESsies (Native English Speakers) should be the world’s first rate citizens and YES, all the others should be second rate, communicatively handicapped citizens! That ‘s what they call: linguistic democracy! I call it: linguistic- cultural arrogance,
JES, la DAP-oj (Denaskaj AngloParolantoj) estu la unuarangaj civitanoj de la mondo, kaj JES ĉiuj aliaj estu duarangaj, komunike handikapitaj civitanoj. Tio oni nomiĝas: lingvista demokratio! Mi nomas tion: lingvista-kultura aroganteco,.
> YES, the NESsies (Native English Speakers) should be the world’s first rate citizens and YES, all the others should be second rate, communicatively handicapped citizens!
That’s not true.
The non-natives adopt an adapted version of English, often referred to as international English. The natives English speakers somewhat have to learn to use this as well.
I’ve been in MANY discussions with people from all over Europe, communicating in English, and the native English speakers were NOT a “first rate” speaker. On the contrary, when they slurred their words and used slang, few understood. Yet, if any others spoke their International English, everyone understood. So, paradoxically, the natives perhaps had to adjust more when speaking.
Esperante:
Iu asertis, ke la angla estas facile lernebla lingvo, ke ĝia gramatiko estas tre simpla.
La Esperanta gramatiko havas 16 regulojn. Esperanto estas logika lingvo, en kiu esceptoj ne ekzistas.
La 6a regulo (el la 16) temas pri verboj: estas nur unu konjugacio, tute regula.
Pri anglaj verboj vidu ekzemple:
https://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/unreg_verben1.htm
Mi kalkulis 151 esceptojn. Por ĉiu escepto parkerigendas almenaŭ 2 vortoj. Krome estas multegaj aliaj esceptoj. (ekz. to do – I do – he does: ne “he dos”; to have – he has; …)
La aserto, ke la angla estas facila lingvo, estas mito.
Nederlands:
Iemand beweerde hier, dat het Engels gemakkelijk te leren is, dat de grammatica heel simpel is.
De Esperanto-grammatica heeft 16 regels. Esperanto is een logische taal: uitzonderingen zijn er niet in die taal.
De zesde regel (van 16) gaat over het werkwoord: er is slechts één vervoeging, volstrekt regelmatig.
Over Engelse werkwoorden zie bijvoorbeeld:
https://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/unreg_verben1.htm
Ik heb 151 uitzonderingen geteld. Voor elke uitzondering zijn er ten minste twee woorden vanbuiten te leren. Daarnaast zijn er veel andere uitzonderingen (bijvoorbeeld: to do, he does, niet “he dos”; to have – he has; …)
De bewering dat het Engels gemakkelijk is, is een fabeltje.
English:
Someone said here that English is easy to learn, that its grammar is very simple.
The Esperanto grammar has 16 rules. Esperanto is a logical language: exceptions do not exist at all in Esperanto.
The 6th rule (of 16) refers to verbs: there is only one conjugation, always completely regular.
About English verbs see for example:
https://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/unreg_verben1.htm
I counted 151 exceptions. For each exception, one you have to learn by heart at least 2 words. In addition there are many other exceptions. (for example: to do – he does; to have – he has)
The claim that English is an easy language is a myth.
En français:
Quelqu’un affirme que l’anglais est une langue facile à apprendre et que sa grammaire est très facile.
Il y a 16 règles dans la grammaire en espéranto. L’espéranto est un langage logique: il n’y a aucune exception.
Dans la 6ème règle (des 16) il s’agit des verbes: il n’y a qu’une seule conjugaison, complètement régulière.
À propos des verbes anglaises, voir entr’autres:
https://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/unreg_verben1.htm
J’ai conté 151 exceptions. Pour chaque exception, au moins 2 mots sont à apprendre par coeur. En outre, il existe de nombreuses autres exceptions (p.e.: to do, he does, non pas: “he dos”, to have – he has; …)
Affirmer que l’anglais est une langue facile est un mythe.
Auf Deutsch:
Jemand hat gesagt, dass Englisch leicht zu lernen ist, und dass die englische Grammatik sehr einfach ist.
Die Esperanto-Grammatik hat 16 Regeln. Esperanto ist eine logische Sprache: Ausnahmen bestehen gar nicht in diese Sprache.
Die 6. Regel (der 16) bezieht sich auf Verben: In Esperanto gibt es nur eine Konjugation, immer regelmäßig.
Über englische Verben siehe zum Beispiel:
https://www.englisch-hilfen.de/de/grammar/unreg_verben1.htm
Ich habe 151 Ausnahmen gezählt. Für jede Ausnahme sind mindestens zwei Wörter auswendig zu lernen. Darüber hinaus gibt es viele andere Ausnahmen (z.B.: to do, he does, nicht “he dos”; to have – he has; …)
Die Behauptung, dass Englisch eine leichte Sprache ist, ist ein Mythos.
Of course not. The EU is based in its diversity, so the European languages must be protected and used at the EU level.
English as official language, of course. As the only, of course not
Of course not.
No. That’s cultural oppression.
No! This would be a privilege for English speakers and a discrimination for all other people. That is a big injustice.
English is the official language of the world.
English is undemocratically imposed on many students around the world. This makes them waste a lot of time in comparison to Esperanto, which is specially developed for fast and easy learning.
No way!!!!!! Are we building a world communist utopia? What is next? Distroy literature, churches, historic buildings, folk dance, any kind of heritage, national cuisine? I mean this crap is going too far now…. The EU was never intended to be united states, only an economic community….
Νο….Όχι. ..nein ….non…..
Yes, if we want an elite Europe where the majority of citizens will always be second class. Esperanto, if we want a truly democratic European where all citizens can converse fluently with one another.
Dear Gabriella, Zamenhof (the initiator of Esperanto) died in 1917. 04. 17. He did not know (in my opinion) what communism was (he died before the Russian Revolution) and definitely did not know how it deformed in the time of Stalinism. Neither he knew that the Nazis would completely annihilate his family when they had the power to do so. Please leave these strong words to those who deserve them. Esperanto was never against but for cultural diversity. Mind it! If you have a chance please get the film of Sam Green ‘The Universal Language’, which is a pearl not only for Esperantists but for all who love real documentaries. Love! Tóni
Funny how god gives us challenges in life…UK is leaving Europe, just as Europe is not going ti survive if the official language is not set to ENGLISH! Oh The Irony! GOD Damn IRONY!
yes: English is currently the only truly global language. Chinese (mandarin I suppose) is growing in influence but too complex to go global. so, communication being key, let’s focus Europe increasingly on English !
100% yes,
Either make all 24 languages official or just one global English. Be fair!
Now It is absolutely unfair how language is used to discriminate people by hindering their job opportunities. Why people form Poland or Romania have to learn French or German and it is not required from Germans or French to learn Polish, Romanian or Slovakian to get the same job in corporation?
One official obligatory language would solve that.
The English language is the only language connecting all the people of the world.It should become the official language for Europe too,in this way we should be able to minimize all problems among nationalities.Hoping to see it soon.Also for me I would improve to speak better.
yes, in Asian countries it is already a second language.
No, for two reasons: After Brexit, English won’t be the official language of the world as Ireland choose Irish and Malta choose Maltese, so, in order to respect the lingual sovereignty of every european nation we should not impose one single tongue as we need to respect the diversity in the EU. And secondly, we could promote european languages such as french (very global language too) or german (core European language) around the world instead of allowing english to eat the diplomatic landscape.
No!
No. It’s fine the way it is now, but with the brexit, no country in the eu will have English as primary language, so eu, adopt English as official language, please…
I like your syllogistic.
Ireland and Malta..
It is not fine at all. This silly nationalism where we all want our language to be the best. English is the language for strangers to meet so english it is. And be happy that now no 1 has the upperhand.
If we want to be something in the world we need to step it up. As i am not cool having chinas dictatorship ruling and being far more efficient than the EU.
English has reigned the world. However, some expressions can hardly be described in the English Language.
Anyway, we are all lost in the translation! :-)
English Yes
Understood by most without any special schooling, an easy conversion with the help of Hollywood
why not, most of the young mimic it and think they are cool speaking it
No.
English, French and German
No, people have the capability of learning several languages, we have devices that already translate languages. And the only country that speaks English is getting out of the EU , so it makes even less sense in this time to make it the only official language.
Depends if you want to use the international business language? Weirdly don’t think anyone wants the who of Europe speaking German, can’t think why? Seriously though, you can speak Martian when we’ve gone, who cares the eu is imploding and will be gone in a decade
Like anyone internationally takes the eu seriously anyway, no one gives a damn what language they speak, the 27 left should speak their own language and protect their own cultures. Europe isn’t and never will be a country so doesn’t need a language.
why is no country in the EU speaks english?
Why? English is already the main working language of the EU institutions, however the EU includes countries with different languages. EU’s decisions have an impact on people all across Europe and it is only right that they can access those rules/decisions/regulations in their own languages.
fully agree. We are already working in euroenglish in most of the preparatory EU meetings, but we need that legislative process and outcoming rules and decision must be in 23 (or more) national official languages
Well, it already appears to be the official language of the internet….inc this site..
Ireland chosen Gaelic and Malta chosen Maltese…
No way……and you asked it already many times
No, never.
Of course it should. And ALL the EU nations using it should pay the UK royalties for the privilege *just stirring you before anyone bites back*
No of course not. Why? However technology allows to use every European language and translate when in formal contact with authorities. Processes should be implemented allowing every EU member to communicate with any language.
No, because England isn’t a part of our union anymore.
Yes.
I agree. If they are already speaking in English in most of these EU meetings, and it is a fact that English is the most commonly spoken language across Europe among 40% of European speakers, there is not much sense in attempting to establish a second language. Also, with the UK no longer a part of the EU there seems to no longer be a bias among the 28 nations. Overall, English is the most widely spoken language on earth next to mandarin Chinese and I believe that forcing everyone to adopt a second or even third language would just be a waste of time.
I think English,becouse of it’s grammar and the ease of pronouncing the words should be the only language in use as the key to communicating with all countries in our union.That would not be practical if there were two or more universal languages becouse it will be hard for people to study one another languange,hard and unnecessary.
I doubt that’s a good idea, because it takes away a big part of countries’ identity. Also, there is no need for that because English is already unofficial communication language, so almost everyone speaks English.
Europe has been doing a centuries old crime that can well be traced to the different languages.. Europeans among many tried to turn themselves into Gods through Styx, through their Genes, through science…They ended up splitting the atom and creating nuclear and biological weapons that will doom us all…If Europeans had bothered to learn greek since ancient times, they would have realized that Styx= cruelty, atom = what cannot must not be broken and genes come from Genos I.e. tribe, humanity,species…. The Europeans have always been a bunch of self-obsessed nations…Maybe if they start learning greek they may get to change their perspective a bit…
While every country should keep its native language, English shall be made the official second language that everybody should speak and students should learn it in school. Like it or not, it is time for the whole world to have a universal tool for communication and this today is English.
Yes. English is the international language of the world.
Why would it?
We are where we are because of Marchal Plan. Therefore please english. The EU countries should learn english.
No. Why should we accept just one of the two official languages of Ireland, a country with 5 mil population to be the official language of the EU? Why not make Danish, or Swedish or Bulgarian the official language? If it must be from Ireland, why not irish? Beautiful language.
> Why not make Danish, or Swedish or Bulgarian the official language?
Because nobody outside those countries speaks it, or has it on their list to learn.
English on the other hand is spoken by everyone. If you’re in another state of the EU and don’t speak the local language, the first language you try is English, isn’t it?
You’re not going to Danish in say Spain to a Spanish stranger. You just don’t. You don’t even try. But you DO try English. Everyone does.
So that’s your answer ;)
I think German language will be better.
There were 2 attempts already to germanize Europe. Many victims and dead!!!!!! No, thanks
a look at your profile says enough; likes the orange trumpet and fox news
Even if it is an administrative burden and entails cost, I support the present system of making everything available in all of the official EU languages. In countries where English is not spoken as a native language, transparency will end for too many people if only English is used. That would alienate people from the “European project” – although you could argue that those who don’t speak English are not following EU decision-making in the first place.
It’s a tough question. English is of course easier for everyone. But thinking strategically: a successful Europe is an inclusive Europe. Those who only speak their native language are probably going to feel even more alienated and anti-EU if all of it is in English. And with today’s technology, is it really all that hard to translate everything in everyone’s language? I say diversity is beautiful. Let’s not ruin it in the name of efficiency.
I totally agree with your final sentence. What’s actually easier, is for everyone to speak their mother tongue, the one in which they read, study, and think… And it’s a lot easier to just say what you have to say without struggling for words in another language and let interpreters and translators (which already exist, being the EU institutions the first recruiters in the world for these professionals), who are specifically trained to do that and are experts in the field, put your words in another language. Machine/automated translation is still unacceptable today, unless you need it to order a beer at a bar or buy train tickets. Btw, the whole interpreting/translation machine costs around 1€ per year per citizen of the EU, so I think it’s not such a high price to pay…
> I say diversity is beautiful. Let’s not ruin it in the name of efficiency.
Many countries had a doze of regional languages, like Frisian, Bask, Welsh, etc. Why did essentially every country adopt a national language if that diversity is so beautiful?
You can still exercise your diversity and enjoy other’s, but a single (official) language helps a great deal, as evidenced by about 26 states in the EU.
From a Single Market perspective, the EU as a whole would benefit enormously if we could do business in one single language (just as the US does).
The closest language we could have in doing this would be of course English. Further “Europeanizing” English wouldn’t mean cancelling the national language or EU’s multilingualism (which is truly a treasure).
We could be inspired by the Nordic countries who speak English fluently as well as treasuring their national language.
A some sort of mandatory English proficiency at the EU level through a Baccalaureat / college exam would be an option.
I am aware though that this is an utopia. It’s really (and understandingly) a sensitive issue.
regarding the “fluency” of the English spoken by people from Nordic countries, there is actually a lot to say. It may sound fluent to a non-native speaker, but I can assure that it’s far from perfect (or acceptable, at some levels). What do you expect from your top nuclear expert, that is extremely proficiently in their field, or in English? And proficiency-level college exams are already part of many national curricula (I used to teach several of them), their level is simply not high enough and their “weight” in the study curriculum (if you understand what I mean) is minimal.
you have to write and speak good english and say “a” utopia. Never “year” before the sound “u”: a European.
Far from fluent!? We are better at grammar than the people in the US… Haha – we aren’t conservative enough to make a big deal out of it though, and languages do develop over time by its speakers. No rules is the best way!
actually an Englishman would understand better an American speaking with poor grammar but a native accent than a Swede with a super thick accent but all the right tenses… And in my experience that is the most common challenge with Nordic (and Dutch too) speakers: 99% are confident they speak impeccable English, but mispronounce half the words they say or use a weird (for non-Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, Danish etc…) syntax, which makes them really hard to understand. At least French, Spanish or Italian speakers are aware they are far from perfect and speak slowly using simple words! Ah, and it’s true that languages evolve over time, but English modified by non-native speakers is a thing in itself: it’s called Globish, and is already being studied by experts all over the world!
“Super thick” accent compared to what!?… OMG. Maybe the Finnish, they are a different kind… Yes, it must be easier for an Italian to understand English with an Italian accent.. But go ahead and ask a Brit! :)
now that the brits are gone?
What does “official language of the EU” mean? How does it affect citizens?
No- no-no-no- no. Europe’s wealth is the diversity of its nations, cultures, languages.
English as lingua Franca, seems inevitable.
Official language and ligua franca, it’s not the same thing. The required level is different. Make a lingua franca an official language gives an unfair advantage to native speakers and discriminate others.
We manage just fine right now. Publishing documents only in English would distance the EU from the people in the member countries and leave the field fully to disinformation campaigns. As things are now, everyone can read the treaties and decisions and can be held responsible if they make inaccurate statements about them. The moment there are people who cannot read the treaties because they do not speak English, they cannot be held responsible for that.
No. Just French, German, Spanish and Italian please
No ! England is not in EU anymore and that would mean “your language is nothing” for the countries in EU.. English could be useful in the relationship with the other countries, but that is all..
Ireland is a EU member so English is one of the EU languages
@Isabelle, which means you take Ireland for a negligible amount. Malta too.
We do use English to communicate with each other, don’t we? I mean, are you purposing that I (as a Swede) should learn Greek if I wanna go there on vacation? How is that efficient when most of them already speak English?
Useless discussion as this is not going to happen.
Knowing English perfectly, as a second language, beside your own countries’ language, would benefit european knowledge exchange (and all that it implies). Economies, science etc. will flourish, in my opinion.
If making English the only E.U.official language, is possible, then we should go for it… and become “one” in our capacities of sharing knowledge and do business.
Esperanto or, this will mess many people up, Latin. :))
one of the most simpliest language – why not?
do you think suaheli would better?
When it comes to spelling English is not so easy. Spanish, German, Danish, French….are more logic
It would be a way to leave behind those countries whose most of citizens can barely speak their own native language.
uk is out, let’s make french 1st language, again…
Any language should be the only one but English
Official, no. Things could carry on as they are for communication with citizens. English however could be the only, or preferred working language for communicating between people working within EU institutions.
Really a very bad idea. .. English is now, with Brexit, the mother tongue of a minority of Europeans.
Most people learn AMERICAN English.
Ask here what a “lorry” is and see them stare at you.
On the other hand everyone knows what a “truck” is.
America gave English importance, not that silly little island.
Why not German? Or Gaelic? seriously – yes, working language (currently EN FR DE) should be limited (maybe we could add ES?) but official languages should be all EU Member States official languages. as Eurocrat I speak working languages but our EU citizens should get info in their native language always.
As a second national language that bridges all eu countries and cultures it makes senses, you have probably the largest amount of content in English than any other language, it should be taught mandatory in schools starting with first grade across the EU, this would be a benefit for all eu citizens in the end and it will bring them closer together; knowing only your native tongue is like reading a single page of a book; also speaking multiple languages is good for the brain!
Nope. If Germany has the presendecy it is German , when Portugal has presendecy it will be Portuguese and so forth you morons. Plus all the docs will be available in ALL EU languages. Translators need to make a living too.
Agree. This is another matter what the EU cannot put their nose into. BTW. English is also the official language of the EU. So if you requre a translator in any EU related location, you might be able to get one. Official languages is determined by the government of a nation, not by some foreign political organization
Hmm, should not that be decided by the member states? English has become the common “denominator” but if the EU leans more to trade with China or Russia, perhaps it may be more correct to use one of their target trade partners as the common language. I mean everyone in the EU hates Trump, and he speaks English. Maybe English as the EU common language is catering too much to Trump. (The above is critical sarcasm, if you hadn’t detected it.)
Terrible idea
Let’s assume that european people are allowed to sing their anthem together. Which language would you prefer? Here is the versions in german, english, latin and esperanto. It’s too bad that now we can only hear the music, and not sing it, like with national anthems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmfmjJpsI8
The fact that you refer to this as national anthem is misleading. The EU is not a nation.
I think English should be the official language to communicate with people of other countries, for example, looking at this debate, we all understand the view point of each one while we’re from diferent countries. On the other hand, I think it’s not necessary to remove mother languages. If we do this, we’ll lose a big part of the culture.
No, because EU doesn’t need a single language. EU is an organization made up of several countries that some have their own language, it is not necessary to change the English. Each country has his language
If the EU doesn’t need a single language, what language do we use to communicate with each other in the EU? I mean, how are we communicating right now?
I think English should be the official language of the EU because almost everyone has learnt English at school and it’s the easiest way to communicate between countries, but I don’t think we should lose our mother tongue.
I think English should be the official language of the EU because almost everyone has learnt English at school and it’s the easiest way to communicate between countries, but I don’t think we should lose our mother tongue.
In my opinion, there shouldn’t be any official language in the European Union because I don’t think that is necessary. But on the other hand the English will be the official language, it good because there are many people who speak this language.
great topic
Echt niet!!!!
Why not?