More than 80% of voters in a symbolic referendum in Catalonia have chosen independence. The Catalan government has said that 2 million people (out of an eligible 5.4 million voters) cast their ballot in a non-binding referendum over the weekend, despite it being unsanctioned by the central government in Madrid.
Spain’s constitutional court has ruled that a formal referendum would be unconstitutional. The Spanish government must now decide how to react, and state prosecutors have announced they will be investigating whether there was “criminal liability” on the part of the Catalan authorities for allowing an unofficial vote to go ahead.
Artur Mas, the President of Catalonia, hopes that the result will increase pressure on Madrid to allow a binding, official vote to take place.
The conservative government of Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy will now have to consider carefully how it reacts. If Madrid ignores demands for an official referendum, or is seen to punish the Catalan authorities too harshly, it risks radicalising public opinion and increasing support for independence.
However, if Madrid agrees to cede more power to Barcelona, or to allow an official vote on independence, then it could spell the beginning of the end for the Spanish state as more regions might also seek to split away.
Are you lost when it comes to the question of independence for Catalonia? Want to know more? We’ve set out some of the most common arguments for and against Catalan independence in our infographic below (you can click for a bigger version):
If Madrid ignores Catalan demands for an official referendum, will support for independence keep growing? Should the Spanish government try to placate Catalan public opinion by devolving further powers to the regional government? Or should it launch criminal investigations into the authorities for holding an unofficial referendum? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.
315 comments Post a commentcomment
EU… or not…
Madrid should respect the will of the Catalan people, of course
only the 30% of voters when to vote, the suporters of the independent parties; in a normal election, the 65-70% of voters go to vote
When a State uses all its machinery to boycott a democratic expression like voting, binding or not, things are different, also, lots of no supporters feel Catalonia as something like a possession which does not has the right to preserve their language and culture,I mean people who lives here since 60 years ago and always complains about everything catalan.
The election was deemed “illegal” by Madrid, there were threats of reprisals. The military rolled in. In the end nothing was done by the police or military to stop it, but it’s hardly surprising that not more went to vote in a “meaningless” election under those circumstances. More than 2 milion voters was above expectation and a success.
A normal election must of course be held before any decleration of independence, this was more like the peoples’ way of saying they want to vote and to be heard.
Madrid must say bye. Independence wins in Catalunya!
UK out of the EU? The sooner the better. Than we’re rid off their politicians slowing everything down.
On the referendum in Catalonia, it cannot go by without notice in Madrid. Thing is that indeed the voting is non-binding probably having as a result that the real pro’s go for a vote and that the contra’s mostly stay at home.
@Wim Vandewijngaerde
The EU has been disastrous at managing its monies, controlling accession, stamping out corruption, implementing democracy and YOU still want to accelerate political union [AKA German control] without first pausing, taking stock and improving matters? BIZARRE!
Misschien is het een idee andere nieuwsbronnen te volgen dan alleen de pro EU RTL`s en staatsomroep NOS. Dan merkt u wellicht op dat niet alleen de Britten UKIP hebben of de Duitsers AfD. Bijna elke lidstaat die in de EU of Eurozone haar of zijn economie zag wegzakken heeft politici die niet blindelings ja zeggen.
The EU politicians are afraid their lucrative job will vanish, therefor are people with a different view not welcome, proof are the SKY News pictures with the YES votes on the NO table.
If Madrid had confidence they would have agreed to the legal referendum.
Madrid should respond by asking what is the level of the turnout? Nobody in Catalunya can answer this question. But this is crucial, because it should say whether all the people who live in Catalunya think the independence issue is crucial.
Polls say that about 80% of the population wants the right to vote about it, and around 50%, maybe a bit less, is pro-independence. Of course this is just surveys, there is always some error in statistical surveys. A real vote is necessary to find out the real number, it’s time Madrid give their blessing, instead of threatening to arrest people for expressing their oppinion. It’s scary, almost like Franco is back.
I really dont get what yhe EU parlament has to do with this..oh wait, its Ivan and his little obession.
Ivan? which Ivan? xD
@Antonio Pedro Bernarda
Spain is not accustomed to democracy – that’s why the EU is involved.
As regards the forum question I fear that if Catalunya is NOT allowed to leave Spain after an appropriate referendum then separatist emotions could well turn nasty.
But if it had been a proper referendum, & that is why Madrid will not allow it, voter turnout would have been greater. The sooner the UK leaves, the better, gogetters only, from beginning when they did not want to join when Europe needed them to now. Hurrah for de Gaulle
FTFY: 80% out of 30%.
Out of 2.3Mn
The turnout was quite low. This being said, it is obvious that there is *something* that makes Catalan people desire independence. I think the Madrid government should start asking itself why this is happening, perhaps start negotiating for real, putting things on the table.
This is a good summary of what is going on in Catalonia.
https://www.omnium.cat/whats-going-catalonia
The referendum has had a 30% voting turnout because we haven’t been let to do it properly, plus, lots in the no side have boycotted it,but even that, it was a 10% voting no. That has come to where it is due to the constant boycott and discrimination to language, economics, and everything which comes from Catalonia. I myself was not separatist till 2007 though I always supported self determination. I think our greatest defect as catalans has been complaining too much during quite a lot of time. Also, they were attacks by Spanish Unionists in Girona and other parts of the territory. One would have to bear in mind that in Spain and Catalonia people is really dumb regarding politics, people just complained without doing anything till the crisis started, independence apart. Also, bear in mind that here, the election/referendum/anything political participation never has superated the 60% after the ’77 general elections in Madrid. Now we have some unionist saying that people is not interested in that because turnout when THEY have boycotted the whole thing. I also think one of the greatest effects of the EU is to ignore national identity questions and trying to build something which does not exist.
at a normal poll, however, I will expect independence to win again but not with the kind of percentage of yesterday. I like the EU for the aspect of brotherhood between nations of a continent, collaboration, free travel, but I think it is too centralized economically and it doesn’t care about minorities. It did the same with Estonia and Slovenia.
That’s just to see how many, but in the case of an official one it would be a different answer. People who still wanting to be Spain hadn’t vote
In which league will Barcelona play? Against Tarragona, Gerona and Lrida?
I am Catalan, and a FCB supporter and your question has an easy answer:
FCB will play wherever is welcome:
– at Spanish league if Spain can accept its independence or
– in French league like Monaco …
– or maybe an extended version of champions league like USA…
I would prefer 100 times to live in a free Catalonia than FCB Keep doing so well.
First freedom, second economic/social welfare, then let’s think about circus
This is a mistake. Eu needs to be strong and united… remember russia and and the islamic state…
If I’m not mistaken the catalans are pro-EU. The mistake is Spain’s threats of independence would lead to Catalonia being kicked out of EU. I for one would rather see Catalonia in the EU over Spain, more of an asset and less of a burden.
Dream on, the EC was the best possible solution. The EU is a forced politician monopoly game, never was and never will be united
More than a 10% voted YES/NO and about a 5% NO, so some of them voted
80%? Only 32% voted on an illegal referendum and 29% of the total population of Catalonia voted for independence
sorry but 2.3Mn out of 5.4Mn is more than 40% in case you did not pass maths
not bad for a poll that was ilegal…
Madrid should say: hey fellas, let’s become a Federal State
wrong news.. 80% of the 30% than can vote, including minors and immigrants
wrong again, 2.3 Mn out of 4.3Mn is more than 40% like in European elections
Jimena Soto your country bejb!
How should european citizen respond!
Herewith an animated picture to let understand the issue until the youngest of us. Without Europe, plural homeland of everybody in this contnent, from Greenland/DK till the Bering Strait/Russia (in the middle of the submarine tunnel to Alaska), no “single homeland” has the minimal chance to survive.
What instead have finished unavoidably their track, are the national sovereign states, wich faliled nearly every target from th WWII till this mornig, and the corrupted and failed Regions. Europe of the future is Europe of its 1000 Cities. We are citizens not nation-zens or region-zens. Isn’t ii?
Absolutely crazy not to have undersood that till today!
Look at this picture, it takes about one mnute to follow it, and possibly yto understand it, and possibly agreee.
http://www.losio.com/rue/Federalismo.html#vision
I think the government of Catalonia should not be pleased with the result since turnout has been very low.Actually the Catalan president should resign.The Spanish government should wait and see what happens in Catalonia’s domestic politics.
Agree with this comment. The majority of the people are not interested in the issue at all. Who is paying for this exercise, by the way?
The turnout was higher than expected, and this for an “illegal” election, with images of military convoys on catalan roads etc.
@Yvetta: that’s not true, more than 80% have in polls said that they want to vote about the issue in a legal election. About 50% of the population has said they want independence. The election was mostly organized by volunteers.
Please, do not mess with the data. There were more than 6 million people summoned to vote. A share of them could not vote in “actual” elections, such as minors (16 to 18 years old) and immigrants. Some 30-35% of these 6 millions “voted” (without any census, in an informal way). From this 30-35%, 80% voted in favour of the independence. This shoulf be the correct way of presenting the facts. Now, if you want to debate, go ahead.
sorry wrong, 2.4Mn out of 5.4 that is more than 40%. You want to lie, fine but lie to yourself
They should respond the same way London did with Scotland. The centralized, unionist aspect of Madrid makes it look imperialistic to everyone around it. No wonder Spain always wanted to conquer Portugal for so many years! In general, Madrid people seem to have a sense of ownership over everything else in the Iberian peninsula.
There was a virtual census. It was impossible to vote twice, or without preestablished conditions.
MANIPULACIN…… 80% de un 30% de participacin…. y eso si nos creemos los datos de los que han organizado, controlado , contado y dado los resultados.
CATALUA IS SPAIN.
@Ruben,
Indeed, Catalonia is part of Spain, but in this forum we are talking also about 50% of Catalans who want to not be ruled by Spain anymore
No division !
Andr Mendes Santos . No problem you could be an exemple and return to Spain. Don’t recommend to others any thing you are not disposed to.
The referendum was ilegal. Only people who wants to separate the country and create abrriers inside of Europe went to vote. No answering by Madrid is needed.
Catalonia isn’t part of Spain, it is occupied by Spain.
@Nono Martínez Pascual
In Apartheid South Africa it was ILLEGAL for blacks to marry whites. The law in South Africa ‘then’ was IMMORAL, the law in Spain ‘now’ is IMMORAL.
If only people who wants to separate Spain went to vote, how to you explain the No-votes? There should’ve been 100% si si if what you say is true.
In some countries it’s illegal for women to drive a car, some laws are stupid and should be changed. Spain is still a young democracy and has a lot to learn.
When only 32% vote it’s meaningless the result. Madrid should react in two ways: First analyze why roughly 1,5 million want to secede. Secondly prosecute Mr Mas due to his break of the law.
Is that you, Francisco Franco?
@Marcel
EXCELLENT riposte!
let them have it. Less powerful politicians ‘is’ good – look how the Euro politicians screw it up on a daily basis.
Just by looking at the comments of the spanish people you can see that this country has a big problem. Keep ignoring the situation in Catalonia because surely forbidding or threatening will make it dissappear… Good luck with that one…
And the ratings continue to 25N…… ?… !!…?…. !!…… Democratic vote?…..
Catalonia is not Spain obviously, I wish them lots of luck throwing off the Francoist terror from Rajoy and the PP.
It is insane that people think that todays borders should be declared sacrosanct, even if it against the will of the peoples. Not just Catalonia that has been occupied by Spain, but look at Africa (riddled with ethnic dictatorships posing as democracies) or the Middle East with the failed states/ridiculous colonial constructs called Iraq and Syria.
Who caused the problem? Colonialists and imperialists did. Who ignored ethnic/tribal/religious/cultural realities on the ground when arbitrarily drawing lines on a map? The colonial powers did, Britain and France foremost but Spain isn’t entirely blameless either.
So low turnout makes things illegitimate, does it?
Well the turnout for the Eurosoviet Duma sham-elections was 42% (actually below 40% if you discount for some countries having compulsory voting).
I quite agree that the Eurosoviet Duma (European fake-parliament) is completely illegitimate.
US Congress vote, turnout 35%, totally illegitimate. And so on.
@Marcel
Agreed.
jesus christ isn’t this a partisan post? Yes more than 80% with a ballot of about 30% that is 1 in 4 catalans voted for independence, the other 3 in 4 catalans didn’t give a shit about it….
Madrid should respect Catalans right for self determination.
Madrid wont acknowledge it though, same as their ignoring the census held in Gibraltar where the overwhelming majority wanted to stay under sole UK sovereignty.
Josephine Cassar people where convinced by all regional media to go to vote as if it was a real referendum in order to make pressure for the central government to actually allow a referendum. However, parties against independence encouraged citizens not to vote. that is why the result of 80% is completely biased towards independence and with a higher turnout in a real referendum NO would most surely win…. In fact the number of people who yesterday said yes to independence (About 1,7 million) are the same number of voters who voted for these nationalistic parties 2 years ago (CiU ERC CUP and ICV) and are the same people always fighting for independence… they, of course exist and are important and there is social unrest in that region, which should be taken care of… however the only conclusion about yesterday’s vote is that catalonia, though divided, most surely does not want independance. Headings like the one in this post is totally misleading
If a no would “most surely win”, then why not allow a real vote and get it out of the way as they did in Scotland? This would most likely keep the independist quite for some time and negate their right to complain about Madrids oppression their freedom of expression. Polls show that you’re wrong though, there are more pro-independist than unionist, lots of undecided though so it’s hardly a sure win for the independist.
if the other 70% don’t care, then so be it. 80% of the voting people said yes. Those who didn’t vote do not count. Madrid should look to itself and consider if they want to get back to the XX century, or actually embrace self-determination and dissolve its power not only to Catalonia, but also to the Bascs, Galicians abd Andalusians. Spain is only an entity because of the royal family, which in my opinion is complete folklore. The prohibition for the referendum gives us a hint of the autocratic and iron hand policies of Madrid central government, let us see if the fire in Catalans, Bascs, Galicians and Andalusians hearts can melt it under, of course, the survaillence of the EU.
Give it equal relevance as a Home Coming King or Queen selection is given in the USA by their Gov’t. O sea, n !
Arriba catalunya libre. Arriba canarias libre. Canarias apoya catalunya
30% turnout is better than many of the ‘legal’ elections across the EU
Next step is Catalan elections, which Spain won’t be able to prohibit. These will be real elections and will decide the issue once and for all- if there is a majority pro-independence in the Parliament we will declare independence unilaterally.
Carolina Gandia waow i didnt know this!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10372750_10152315783761199_2984847654001198535_n.jpg?oh=484313670b018e5116c164e41ad6e418&oe=54E5463F&__gda__=1424881705_de369b23ab80b5886e36a39bb0e7c742
those 80% who voted for independence are only 1.8 million catalans and foreign immigrants together.But Catalonia has a population of more than 6million people.2 million catalan voted,1.8 are in favour and the other 4 million just doesnt wanted to waste thier time Artur Mas was making
@Karl Hilario
Based on your logic the EU elections this year were a waste of time.
No compares Catalua con Escocia, Tiago Miranda, no engaes al mundo, y no hables mal de tu pas, que es Espaa,
But only 32% of the census voted: please, say it all. The vast majority of catalans didnt actually vote.
@Pablo Martinez Capdevila
The vast majority of EU voters did not VOTE in this year’s EU elections too.
Remember, Karl Hilario, that the vote was directly and explicitly prohibited by the Spanish State, and that Artur Mas and the rest of the Catalan government have been threatened with criminal prosecution for organising this ballot. Obviously turnout was lower than that of an official election, but with all the threats from the Spanish State, as well as from the far- Right parties, promising to smash up ballot boxes and invade Catalonia, it is not surprising that many voters will have been put off. Spain doesn’t exactly have the greatest pedigree in protection of democratic freedoms. ……….
In Catalonia we can not Speak freely. If I say my opinion I have many problems with a Catalan Nationalist.
Here in Catalonia we can not speak freely.I am Catalan and Spanish and European.
The vote wasn’t prohibited by the Spanish State but by the “Tribunal Constitucional”. They were vulnerating the Law and the knew it.
There needs to be an Independent World Body for this type of scenario. If people want greater freedom then they should be able to express that in a referndum: if Madrid’s arguments on convincing the Catalan people of why Spanish unity was the best decisin for their futures then they could have permitted a fair and free referndum with the confidence that their arguments would stand up. Instead, their clear attempts to block democracy have backfired and turned many undecided about Independence into supporting it.
80% of those people who voted (2.4 million people). Not 80% of all those who COULD HAVE VOTED (6 Million people). That is to say, over 3.5 million people did not vote.
Compared to the over 80% turnout in Scotland, this is pathetic.
What is a State if not the sum of its organs? The TC, the Supremo, the central government, the Council of State, as well as the Partido Popular and PSOE and UPyD, all positioned themselves against this vote. The vote was illegal in Spanish law, absolutely. And I am immensely proud to have disobeyed the TC and the other institutions by voting yesterday. Voting does not hurt anyone.
If it was up to the eu, no response. Im sure it was restless in madrid after the outcome and im sure that the spanish pm being the devout eu man that he is will follow eu protocol and ignore it or start a campagn to discredit the out come or do whatever europhiles do when the water gets rough. Maybe the spanish pm could get pointers from vanrumpy or the dutch goverment , they also ignore referendums and dont like other viewpoints ,ideas ,freedom ,labour laws, healthcare democracy etc etc. After the vote ill bet Brussels called real quick with new orders…
Catalonians like all europeans should have the right to decide their own future if the future they see is not the future they want.
Justin, remember that we had movements of tanks the day before the vote, to remind us that the military institutions are controlled by the central State. It’s not as if the tanks haven’t come out before, during Spain’s brief democracy….there was the coup d’etat in 1982, the leader of which (Tejero) got out of jail early. He now paints watercolours. …….
@Mathew V Barton
Mathew, I do not doubt your veracity but would you please kindly provide a link regarding the movement of tanks as such behaviour is symptomatic of a fascist state!
WOW!
Find link below showing Spanish army armored vehicles going to Barcelona some days before the 9N
http://m.20minutos.es/noticia/2288082/0/vehiculos-militares/ejercito-barcelona/consulta-soberanista-cataluna/
@Victor
Thank you.
WOW!
I new Spain [like MOST Latin countries] was prone to fascism BUT I thought the EU had civilised Spain to desist from such barbaric practices.
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.
The point is that more than 68% of Catalans did not take part in this misleading referendum promoted, organized, and controlled by the separatists. This is a fact.
Ok, so now we will hold autonomic elections, which I presume will not be prohibited, and if there is a high level of participation, with a majority for independence, problem solved. :)
The point is that Catalonia is part of Spain and it is not a private property of the separatists, and more than 68% of Catalans don’t want to take part in this political operations of marketing of the separatists.
:D What an information. Improve it, please.
Agreed. Let’s pretend that we’re Europeans living in the 21st century and vote on it, no?
Voting in accordance with the Law.
El 80% del 35% del censo. Menuda cifra juajuajua!!
The question is how Europe should respond. This a complete fail for the ones who think Europe could become a country. No way, not in that way, is ridiculous. This is nothing else than an economic brotherhood, a major fail for the ones who talk about the united states of europe.
LET THEM SAY!
What proportion of Spanish people currently alive voted in favour of the Spanish Constitution(la que hemos votado ‘todos’)? How is it that Mr.Rajoy, with not even a third of the total census having voted for him and his party, has absolute majority in the Congreso?
El 80% del 30%, y q pensara la inmensa mayora d catalanes q no participaron en la pantomima
LET THEM BE FREE!
70 % 30% Ivn Raja,si haces esa suma te sale 110% :)
No creo que este sea el debate en sipor que se nos niega a todos los espaoles el derecho a decidir?ese si es el debate
Please, stop manipulating! Spain is a Democracy and all people can vote and decide in State and autonomous elections each four years. Catalans (more than 68%) didn’t want to participate in the manipulation and marketing operation of the separatists. This is a fact.
That is not a fact, not voting does not equal not wanting to participate in a democratic vote. Many were not able to, voting in embassies for catalans abroad was not possible e.g. as Madrid deemed a democtratic expression of free will as “illegal”.
The turnout was above expectations despite far-right threats and military convoys on catalan roads. And in comparison to many other, government sanctioned elections, it was a success and the catalans should be proud.
But if you’re so sure that it’s a fact that catalans want to stay in Spain, and most of them don’t even care enough to go and vote, then propagate for a government sanctioned election so the separatist will shut up about it.
Please don’t compare Spain with the USSR, Don’t manipulate!
If Europe has to actually ask,what to do when there is an 80% majority on a specific issue…..then someone has to ask,does europe actually truly believe in democracy or not?Ofc that is a rhetorical question.
Go ahead Catalunia!! Portugal is with you !
” all the ( animals ) men are egual , but there’re some men ( animals ) most egual than others..” !
The pro independence vote is a higher percentage of the Catalan population than that the Francoist PP and Rajoy got of the Spanish people at the last Spanish election.
Han votado el 36% de los votantes catalanes y de ese 36% ha salido que un 80% vota por la independencia. Os pido por favor que respetis al 64% que no ha querido elecciones para la independencia y que respetis tambin al otro 20% que han votado y no quiere la independencia.
De dnde sacas esa informacin? El 36%?
El 80% del 33% k voto es 1.6 millones de una poblacion d 5.4 millones kon dcho a voto. No es mucho la verdad. Son los mismos 1,6 millones k llevan desde el 78 con el intento d someter a los otros 4 millones d habitantes.
DUI
Please do mention that only about a third of voters went to vote Debating Europe
@Davide Carrino
A similar proportion voted in the EU elections this year too.
Davide Carrino, nearly more participation than in the European Elections ;)
A third of posible voters participated while participation in regional elections was 70%.This is a complete failure and not a success
This way of reporiting is hilarious. Just 30% of catalonian people voted for independence in a fucking kidding symbolic kermesse.
The Spanish Constitution does not allow Spain is divided. If the Catalans want independence, they must first request an amendment of the Constitution. I am Andalusian, but I also want a reform of the Constitution.
I am Catalan. I think that it will be easier for you to reform Spanish constitution if Catalonia is out of the equation.
Freecat
80 % of 35 % of the catalonia.
Junckers and his confederacy of ‘parties’ got 28% of 42%
So even less…
the headline of this news is totally sensational. its NOT the truth
La poblacin de Catalua supera los 7 millones. Segn la Generalitat el crnso para esta consulta es de 6.697.727 personas y en la consulta han participado, tambin segn la Generalitat, 2.305.290 personas. so es un 35% del censo del 9N.
Catalonia’s population is over 7,000,000 inhabitants. The census for this consultation states that 6,697,727 Catalans could vote, according with the Catalan government. But only 2,305,290 people took part in the poll according with the Catalan government too. That makes a 35% of the census.
In 2011, 34.952.313 Spaniards were called to the polls. 10.830.693 voted for the PP, Rajoy has an absolute majority with 30.9% of the census .
The participation in the 9N , without the vote in other countries, or votes of 10-25N, is more than the 36%.
Add that 2 of 3 Catalans did no vote yesterday. Maybe in a real Referendum results would be completely different. Anyway, 2,3 million people voting is a strong message to the People’s Party (PP), let’s see what happens next weeks! Apa Iberia!
No response at all…it was non-binding, non-etc…
Let us vote! Freedom for Catalonia, we are a nation we have our history, europe can’t ignore it. Help us respect…FREEDOM
El 36% no es correcto, solo ha sido el 30%
Menos el 10 % que no es correspondiente menos la manipulacin de los voluntaris de ERC, que queda…..? Solo una cosa, dimisin del arturo y elecciones inmediatas
THE GENERALITAT AND FOLLOWERS AND IN THE HEAD the PRESIDENT MAS ONLY ARE A GANG OF NAZIS AND MAFIA…. NOBODY KNOWS it? IT IS THE CAVE OF ALI BABBA AND THE 40 THIEFS. NOBODY KNOWS THAT CATALANS SECESSIONIST SAY THAT MADRID AND SPAIN STOLEN THEM…..WHILE….ALL MONEY IS PICK UP BY THEMSELVES TO PARADISE FISCALS,LIKE ANDORRA,LUXEMBURGO,SWIZERLAND AND OTHERS AND LIED IN ACCOUNTS OF THE MAIN LEADERS OF THEM. All are a corrupts THAT want HIDE ALL OF IT. NOBODY KNOWS it.???? NOBODY KNOWS THAT under OUR rules and constitution ALL PEOPLE FROM SPAIN 47 MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE IT….NOT ONLY A TERRITORY.?????
@MODERATOR OF DEBATING EUROPE on this forum:
Please consider removing this post.
No vote 2/3 of catalans because spanish government say vote in this referendum is ilegal, and the people want an authentic referendum without threats. Europe can not turn back, it’s about democracy
NOBODY KNOWS THAT UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION THE GOBERNAMENT HAVE THE RIGHT OF SUSPEND AND CLOSE AN AUTONOMIC COMMUNITY IF SEDITION.????
Yes. We Catalans know it because it is the only argument you provide against our independence.
If Spain suspends Catalan already reduced autonomy it would be the best scenario for a revolution … Do you really want that?
They are not People TRUSTY…and always WERE like it TRAITORS… Sinc XV CENTURY….NOBODY KNOWS IT?????
Somebody KNOWS what say OUR CONSTITUTION…. BEFORE to speak LEARN.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/10/catalonia-independence-referendum-example-to-world
Every nation deserves the right to self-determinate, and that can eventually lead to a referendum about independence, even to vote for NO. No democrat should be afraid of that, but Spanish government, unlike more advanced democracies such as the UK, refuses to negotiate and arrogantly despises Catalan’s claim, which has been repeatedly shown in massive demonstrations. Stop banning democracy; let the Catalans vote.
Agreed!
In 2011, 34.952.313 Spaniards were called to the polls. 10.830.693 voted for the PP, Rajoy has an absolute majority with 30.9% of the census .
The participation in the 9N , without the vote in other countries, or votes of 10-25N, is more than the 36%.
I vote for Madrid spain all my votes are for Madrid
I vote for Madrid spain all my votes are for Madrid
Spain Madrid is a very beautiful country and the people there are very beautiful
Spain Madrid is a very beautiful country and the people there are very beautiful
I agree with you, but their beauty does not mean that madrid’s government has the right to rule Catalonia as a colony forever
Can someone tell me WHEN Cataluña was ever the kingdom they say they were?
How can anyone compare this to the Scottish plea? Has everyone stopped talking about the thievery that has ALSO gone on in the Catalan government and Generalitat? No money for keeping heath clinics open but passing around little pastries and drinks during the consultation and advertising all this for weeks? Who is paying for this party?
Hopefully future provocations will not be so.. and will follow the existing rules. Or change the rules for holding a referendum … or follow them …
Bla bla bla 36%. Bla bla bla. 80% del 36%. Alguien sabe decir el % de votos que los independentistas catalanes han tenido en las ltimas elecciones? Quizs sea importante. Y s no es pedir mucho, cual el % de espaoles que han votado en las europeas?
Bla bla bla 36%. Bla bla bla. 80% del 36%. Alguien sabe decir el % de votos que los independentistas catalanes han tenido en las ltimas elecciones? Quizs sea importante. Y s no es pedir mucho, cual el % de espaoles que han votado en las europeas?
It’s a surprise no one said that about 60% of the votes, on the last Catalan election, were to independent parties. What’s the excuse for that?
It’s a surprise no one said that about 60% of the votes, on the last Catalan election, were to independent parties. What’s the excuse for that?
Independence for Catalunya and for other new states the people push for, when in presence of historical/ethnical/linguistic reasons… all this in the frame of a renovated, stronger, more effective EU
dialogue, dialogue, dialogue!
What is the meaning of democracy ?
But only 32% voted. That’s ruvbish….
The only option that Madrid can do is respect the people’s to self-determination. They have spoken! The voice of the people is the voice of God…That is the beauty of democracy!
Only vote 30% of population !!! The 70 % wan’t to be spanish !!!!
Then there shouldn’t be a problem with arranging an election sanctioned by Madrid, right? Must be good for the economy to prove to the separatists that they are in fact the minority so all the media coverage and propganda can stop.
Only 40% voted for EU elections (and some compulsorily).
60% want EU gone immediately!
Madrid should shut up and accept
What would posses some gathering to choose being divided instead of being together. Catalans must be really brainwashed to think they can have better solution to their problems outside of the inherent place they have in Spain and in EU. A totally populist action, I suspect.
there is NO DEMOCRACY with out LAW…… (Winston Curchill)…
LAW does not mean DEMOCRACY… (Myself)
Catalonia is Spain, their false history and their sedition ony must have a end: Jail
Francisco Franco dixit
Give the people a vote on in or out. They have a right to democracy and if they don’t want to be part of the failing Spanish government, then they have every right to vote to be out from it.
However, the Spanish will no doubt get a few tips from Cameron on how to rig an election without a word being spoken against it. They will need some authentic film makers very closely taking proof videos in every counting house they have.
Catalans wins. And catalans vote in a plebiscit elections. And after, DUI and goodbye Spain. This is the way. And after, dialogue for the secesion. We are and we’ll are.
The independence wanted is the big false sell to the people in Catalua, its have been write with , spanish .
Bueno Jose Francisco ests denunciado.
Catalunya marxa…. i ho sabeu! Ho donarem tot.
Els unionistes no teniu arguments i us heu convertit en totalitaris i antidemocrates. A ms a ms no pareu de mentir degut a la vostra falta d’inteligncia i sobretot coneixement de la realitat catalana. I el govern de l’estat, el vostre estat, no far res per impedir-ho. Ja ho deveu estar veient oi? Molta parauleta i al final res de res.
32.8% participated. You are dumb, Debating Europe.
Of course it was 80%. Im surprised it wasnt higher. The only people whod vote would have been those in favour to seperate. Why would anyone else vote knowing nothing would be done anyway?
The flag’s symbolism is just wrong. Outdated.
Una mierda para vocis
Madrid should talk to Barcelona about what they want exactly… independence not being discussed of course, but rather political areas that barcelona wants to have more influence on….
We Catalans have tried to do so for over 30 years … The answer is always the same ‘ No ‘
Catalunya is an occupied Nation in a fascist country Sergio Jimenez. Yuu had bettrt learn someyhing about Catalunya’s history!!
that figure is not true. Most of the Catalans did not vote at all, so if you take Catalonia population as a whole, not eve 35% of Catalans voted for independence
Jason Pi, you’re wrong.. The symbolism of this flag is more alive yhan ever!!!!! 25
It’s wrong to say than all the people who did’n vote would havr voted no!!!!!
Bueno Jose Francisco: Comparing Catalonia’s government to nazism only show your ignorance!!!!! And I’m not a CIu voter….
I repeat: 2 of 3 Catalans did no vote and this symbolic referendum was not binding. In a real Referendum results would be quite different. Notice that in this referendum there has been only campaign in favor of the SS, has been organised by them, both the polling stations as the counts, and, worst of all, it has not been reported to the catalans of what would actually mean that Catalonia could separate from Spain with all its consequences.
No votaron ni siquiera 2 de los mas de 7 millones de catalanes no se cumplieron laa garantas suficientes y parece que hubo gente que voto hasta 3 veces… es decir a penas voto un 30 por ciento y sobre esto un 80 se cree q vot por la independencia… por que se le da bombo a esta farsa? El gobierno espaol ni si quiera se ha tomado la molestia de paralizar la consulta en definitiva esto ha sido una pantomima…
Habeis visto las votaciones y las garantas de las mismas? en cualquier pea recreativa tienen ms garantas…. cuando se ha visto que las mesas no estn conectadas? cuando se ha visto que un nio de 16 aos vote? cuando se ha visto que los mismos controladores del derecho al voto lleven una estelada en clara alusin a un nico voto? cuando se ha visto que estos mismos estelados, ayuden a los extranjeros a votar que no saban hablar ni espaol ni cataln? cuando se ha visto que en lugar de un censo, se entregue un documento para votar? total que puedo votar en un colegio o local de Barcelona, dando mi dni y a la hora me voy a otro (por ejem. en Reus) y lo doy de nuevo y ya puestos, cojo el coche y me hago un tour en honor al sufragio….una chapuza ms grande q la ceguera de Mas y Junquera y el hazmerreir ms grande de la triste vida de muchos organizadores de esta chapuza.
Cojonuda imagen de Catalua hacia el mundo.
Si desde el extranjero no tenis ni puta idea, ruego no opinis.
Claro hombre!
PoRque TU criterio es el único válido… Verdad ?
sixteen years old could vote and immigrants too wauuuuu 100 % you win we loose Catalua is Spain
You miss Franco, don’t you?
TAXIS,quet moqui la yaya
todo mentira.
Em democracia e legtimo um referendum…
Its sad. Es triste que por la accin de unos demagogos CORRUPTOS que estn en el poder de la mas prospera de las comunidades hayan estructurado un plan para obligar a su poblacin a renunciar su historia, para que ellos puedan robar con gusto. De nuevo una minora organizada,uniformada y manipulada hace fuerza para amedrentar a la mayora!!! se vota sin garantas y con la participacin de extranjeros y menores, amen de muchas mas irregularidades, es triste pero esto huele a Fascismo del Malo…HAIL MAS!! NOS ESTAN DEJANDO A LA ALTURA DEL BETUN!! Y AQUI AGUANTANDO PARA NO OFENDERLES Y QUE NO GANE “MAS” MAS FUERZA! SAD VERY VERY SAD.
Your understanding of the situation is upside down.
I desired a free Catalonia much Before Mas declared his willingness for independence.
I voted president Mas because he said he was going to set up a vote for independence.
Debate, dialogue, agreement, campaign, legal referendum and respect for what the Catalan people decides with their votes. This is the process that should occur in a real democracy.
Agreed… But unfortunately, Spain is everything but a real democracy.
Catalan separatists = manipulation, lies, provocation and victimization.
Spanish government: Francoists, theft, putting bankers ahead of people, corruption (Rajoy and co).
What was that about the splinter and the beam?
What’s more, besides the low rate of participation, most voters voted up to three times at different “poo-lling” stations.
Yes Hugo ! Your credibility can even sink deeper … Keep trying hard!
This is separatism in Catalonia: Manipulation , lies, provocation and victimization . http://www.lavozlibre.com/userfiles/2a_decada/image/FOTOS%202014/11%20NOVIEMBRE%202014/11%20NOVIEMBRE%202014/abc.jpg
As voters have the how independent Catalonia Catalonia in there in my opinion was a symbolic vote who stood to gain European Democracy was she was the winner of the elections in Catalonia now we must look at Madrid and will have to catch this wave of separatist Spain united loger be won
Inside the EU establishment there are since long forces which promote the “regionalisation”of Europe. Such attempts became first visible in the Eighties of the last centure. The objective of theses forces is to weaken the member states in favour of centralized EU institutions. Parts of the “eurocracy” obviously believe that dealing with 400 or so regions would be easier than with 28 (plus minus) national governments. If that is a valid observation, that Catalonia or any new state will have no problems to stay in the EU after independence, at least as far as the “eurocracy” is concerned. However, resistance can be expected from the EU Council where the national governments are represented.
Neverteless, we have to recognize on another level that some of EU member states are the result of historical conquests which left scares lingering on in parts of its population. The EU anti-nation politics somehow paradoxically enables such would-be nations to articulate their identity and to strive for independence. Unfortunately, it is less recognized that independence possibly gained from the old nation states will immediately be lost again when staying in the EU. Although officially the “eurocracy” is flattering its small member states, in reality the small members have much less influence than the large members.
Still, despite of risks like this Catalonians (as well as Scots, Flemings and others) should have the right to vote on independence. The frustration of Catalonia with Spain goes actually back to the beginning of the 18th century when in the battle of succession for the Spanish throne Catalonia between the French Bourbons and the German Habsburgs the Catalonians sided with the Habsburgs (the “perfidious Albanion”, of course, already that time played its dirty games -:)).
European history has long effects, something the “eurocracy” is obviously not really aware of
@Bastian
“perfidious Albanion”?
The “perfidious Albion” (England) first supported the Catalans (and Habsburgs), then changed side to the French.
(Unfortunately Debating Europe has no functions to correct mistakes in writing.)
@Bastian
Bravo, I’m glad you realised you had made a mistake.
Some readers may have thought that you were referring to Scotland or indeed Albania with your rather ‘continental’ spelling error.
The ever increasing separtist sentiment has much to do with poor european politics. Increasing centralisation of power and reducing people’s participation on decisions affecting their daily life brought us to this situation. National governments in EU have become mere regional delegations of EU centralised decisions making bureaucrats.
The goal to deflate national pride and autonomy to achieve a globalist agenda will allways be met with natural rejection from people all over Europe. To achieve that goal EU must improve living conditions and an effective solidarity among all europeans, not for financial institutions…
Keep National Pride and Nations….scrap the eu.
meanwhile mr president mas is cheering up for a 30% turnout …. it’s beloved catalonia is waiting for the 2015 budget to be written by god because splitting up from spain is better for catalonia’s economy than governing it LOL
The Gov. Must Debate the subject among the spanish people.
@Bastian:
Have no fear your English is so fluent and correct you far outweigh those who are born so called British. I wish I spoke German even 1% as well as you speak English.
That aside, you are always so on target when it comes to the history you know so well. The creature who condemns is simply an empty vessel whose knowledge leaves one amused.
It’s a simple vote, Catalunya freedom or Francoist tyranny via the corrupt PP.
clar i català!
I don’t think so.
Either the referendum is Spain-wide or it’s not legitimate. Check Spain’s CONSTITUTION.
Those who say otherwise are the same stooges that haven’t read UKRAINE’s constitution that specifically says ANY referendum must be country-wide.
Both referendums are pointless except one is a sham and the other is a warning Madrid better stop pushing the austerity pedal or ELSE!
Scotland’s “referendum” was also such a warning. Of course the Westminster cretins wet themselves a bit, but then when scotts calmed down they went back to their EU bashing antics all over again proving they learned NOTHING.
Why the rest of Spain has to decide for our future? in a divorce the neighbours doesn’t decide ..we decide for our problems and our future. Even some ministers from the government wanted to cancel our Autonomy…and we must not forget that the Spanish government members are the sons and grandsons of very known members of Franco’s dictatorship. They do not really care about Catalonia going independet the only think they care is that the PIB will fall more or less 30% because only 7 million people represents the 30-40 % of the Spanish GPD.That is the problem here but the put a kind of make-up to mask what is they concern,not ours.
Very simple,if the people want independance ,let them have it.
Applies to UK,Catalonia,whoever.The problem is the over bearing dictatorship that the EU has become and while it continues to ignore the people of Europe it will breed resentment ,hated and revolution.
respect the vote of the people nazis
listen to the people for a change
The people know best for themselves, if its not given then we live in tyranny.
80% of the people is a fake result; after a real referendum, with a 100% of participation, if the votes keep saying that they want independence, Madrid should listen to the people and respect the vote.
Elena,
Please be realistic, you should require 200% of participation… Or 1714% of participation in a referendum
Excuse me? 80% of what? EU please, stop looking ridiculous. What Madrid should have done many years ago is revoke the autonomous rights of Catalua as our constitution states. Let something simmer long enough and it will boil. And leaving a corrupt government push indepence only made more people want independence, which is absurd. But anyway no where near 80% of catalans want it. Not even a quarter or that, it is a minority. A minority made up of half of them corrupt fools and the other half misguided and lied to who believed the lies. And for anyone advocating this is anywhere even close to legal, wake up. I would like for my city to be independent. Hell, i would like Spain to be independent of EU, can we vote on that as well?
Kick Spain out of the EU and make them learn once and forever that voting should never mean a menace. Many countries became independent after wars and joined Europe afterwards. We want to cast a vote peacefully and we are still not allowed to. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
Allow even more de -centralisation and benefits for the region. If the people are not happy then they will want to abandon Spain.
1 )80% ?of what population? of how many voters?
In a time when we must unite….why divide more?
2) More autonomy ….yes…much more autonomy.but keep Spain one country for the good of all.
Accept!
Sanctions against Russia?
They should respect the people’s well and let them to decide their poltical future freely and recognize them thereafter as an independent sovereign state….
The headlines are misleading and irresponsible! please be more careful!
You are also misleading…
Unionist like you have not realised that the western democratic countries has a neutral view on catalan independence process … You may not like it, but it does not mean it is irresponsible …
Quin titular ms fals!
The headline is rubbish. Find out the facts. The vote was a fake with top politicians manning polling stations and counting the votes. There was no voters list and there are proven cases of multiple voting. Turnout was only 35% even if you believe the givernment, which sensible people don’t. Opponents of of independence had nothing to do with it. The true figure is that 29% actually turned out to vote for independence. Stop bashing Spain. Stop purveying the Black Legend presented by Catalan nationalists whom Jrgen Habermas has compared to Le Pen because they exercise iron control over ideological indoctrination in schools and the media, including private media.
Why do you illustrate your post with a pro-independence flag instead of the constitutional flag of Catalonia? Presumably because you have made up your minds. So much for “debate”.
In short, START THINKING INSTEAD OF SPOUTING IGNORANT CLICHS!!!
Dime de que presumes y te dire de que careces
In fact You are ‘spouting ignorant cliches’… Really ignorant.
1. There was a voters list built up using voters id’s that was typed by more than 40000 volunteers who filled a networked database.
Spanish CNI ordered a massive IT attack to catalan government website to try to boycott the elections… But they did not succeed.
2. There is no indoctrination in catalan schools… The only difference with Spanish schools is they catalan is taught and used for some of the subjects.
3. Catalan Private media is unionist (belongs to Spanish Conde de Godó)
4. Catalan independence feeling has nothing to do with Le Pen’s nationalism, in fact there are Spanish speakers associations who supports it eg. Sumate
Madrid should behave as London or Ottawa… real democratic and modern coutries… Damm, even Belgrad in 2006 order a referendum
Democracy is the will of people. Let catalans be free.
80%? According with the Catalan government -imprecisse- figures just 2,305,290 “Catalans” out from a census of 6,697,727 voted. That makes a 35% of the census, not an 80%, you liars.
Please Read all the sentence:
‘80% vote for independence in catalonia’
80% Vote is one concept, and the other is 35% participation over the total census.
I hope You got it
Catalonia is Spain. Leave European countries alone to resolve their internal problems Spain is a democracy and guarantee the human rights of everybody who lives there. Otherwise Europe should be 200countries
This is good sign and bad sign. It seems further decision process and wisdom will show the sincerety, certainty and clear view.
Good sign is for Europe that will of the people still counts. And there is still open space for taking decision when want to change something that seems at first glance as trend going down without clear vision how long will have to be in state of uncertainty, where we are going, who is sincererly open to the vision.
Bad sign is that from experience in my country that divison of the problem is not the solution if the smaller community is not strong in vision and all members of community are part of the vision not only bureacratic or political or economy elite that just use time of chaos as opportunity for self.
Because as later events showed this divison is not stopped. If the core of the problem is not solved, divison continues inside community. And new problems appear showing symptoms of old one. Guess this desire is part of process where history benefits of some classes of society are too heavy burden for other classes of the society. And by divison it is the message for change. But if previous elite beraucracy and high elite establishment is replaced with new one soon or later same conflicts will appear through influences and accepting changes when integrating to global community.
Guess only very detailed and very concrete vision for every member, every person, familly, and give every person in new community value, respect, express his vision , courage and how community will function on all levels …and regular communication and open access to education, jobs, home, communicating in local manamgement can resolve the core. Motivating for expanding awarenes and consiousness …other wise polarisations and divison will continue. But if that is the issue ths process could be initiated also in united Spain. Guess the crisis is not sensed for all memebers of community as warning signal that nature and inner entity of the people are calling for cooperation, responsibility, and equal access to the process of getting comptences for taking responsibility is what matters now.
Check historical figures and offer them to pay for independence
We Catalans already pay 16000 million euros per year for dependency… No wonder why Spanish gov. want to keep us as their last colony
Yes, 80% of the 30% who showed up to vote.
62% of Catalans did no vote! Let’s see what would happen in a real and all-consequences oficial Referendum! ;)
It would be great … But Spain has no real democratic culture …
The answer is always the same ‘no way’
Sad but true
Catalonia is not spain!
Can we also nail the nationalist propaganda lie that the government in Madrid is preventing Catalonia from voting? The Spanish constitution forbids secession, as do the constitutions of virtually every country in the world. The part cannot decide for the whole and Catalonia can no more decide to secede from Spain than Texas can secede from the USA.
Catalonia’s first minister, deputy first minister and education minister have ben called to answer to the law for flagrantly disobeying a clear judgment of the Constitutional Court forbidding the referendum. That is a civilised way of going about things. In the 19th-century USA this very question led to a civil war.
Yeah… Very democratic and problem solving behaviour…
Judge catalan president because he obeyed what catalan people voted.
Do what Kiev goverment did – call them terrorists and start a military campaign against Catalonia with NATOs blessing. Or will there not be a blessing this time ? Oh, and sanctioning Russia can also help…:-)
Mecifully, we do not have terrorism in Catalonia — but we did once and we fear that it will return. It is not comparable with the illegal Russian invasion and occupation of Ukraine. Catalonia is part of Spain.
I can’t believe the world is falling for the independentist lies! Only 30% of Catalans voted for independence in the faux referendum. Sheesh… How can this page be so naive.
It is always the richer regions that claim independence, why is solidarity so difficult ?
Solidarity is ok, exploitation (=systematic 10% GDP fiscal drainage) is not.
A free catalonia would be as solidary with other countries in the UE as Germany already is
From a 6.3 million people census, including +15 year-old and foreign-born non-EU citizens, only 1.8 Million people voted yes. Congratulations. :-D A NO campaign has never existed because that’s not a real referendum, but a Catalan government party consultation, so obviously, the people against didn’t vote. From then to now I see less flags than ever on balconies, just take a walk around here so you’ll see :-) Well the next local and general elections in Spain are going to be soooo entertaining, with many new parties involved not big majorities majority anywhere.
It should leave them alone, not interfering with the People’s choice
no independence for Catalonia. no independence for small regions! small countries are easy to conquer or are easy to be transformed into pupet-states
I vote
Catalonia free to join Europe indipendently as any other in EU till the citizen level.
Conceding independence.
Their chance as part of Spain is better than their chance alone. Why separate?
Not at all Liz!!
Which 80%? Where did you find it ?
Spain should agree with this.
Madrid must answer that Spain Spain back together
How did u come up with that number 80% ?!
It’s 80% of the 35% who turned out who voted for independence. But the rest who saw through the fraud didn’t vote. There were two questions (!). The other 20% answered yes to one and no to the other. That 80% is the propaganda result of a politically manipulated vote. It seems that the people who run this page have fallen for it.
?? lets make a europe of 200 countries so we will be happier.
El 80% de qu? Se os vi el plumero.
Qué plumero? debating Europe es un foro neutral… aunque a los unionistas no os guste
Yes! Let’s start dividing Europe, let’s make 300, 400, hell, 500 independent countrys ! let’s all fight for (un)union ! seems the logic path to take for a better future
Rafael Arenas Garca I think you have to see this debate. The title is very doubtful as Peter Harvey has rightly pointed out.
Thank you for the information Angel . We have seen this approach in the UK and in Russia. It is necessary to stress that the catalan regional goverment is acting outside and against the law and this is not unimportant, at least in democratic countries. No result obtained outside the democratic proceedings can be considered. Even more, as Peter Harvey has pointed out, only there out of ten catalans have voted for the independence. It is not enough basis to say that “Catalonia” demands the independence
The title cannot be doubtful because it is a fact.
80% of the people who voted in Catalonia’s consultation wants the Independence.
The point is, why is Spanish gov. radically opposed the vote ?
Law does not necessary means democracy, and the Case of Spain against Catalonia is a clear example .
Bastantes mal informaciones y partidismos
Magnus Lindh kanske ngot som r intressant fr Dig att lsa?
Many of you call Catalans unsolidary or consider Catalan nationalism to be exclusive. However, I’d like to ask you to make an exercise of understanding of where we come from.
Imagine you live in a country, the state of which:
(1) Goes against most of your political interests (language -making your language, Catalan, the fourth language in teaching in Catalan schools-, education laws, infrastructure, welfare policy, culture, transport, etc.).
(2) Systematically ignores your opinions that the system should change. You accept the democratic reality but ask for, at least, the alternative that could allow you to leave that reality as the nation you are (the Catalan nation). They deny you that alternative. So, you aren’t only asked to conform the reality in Spain but you’re also asked to give up your right of self-determination.
(3) Requires you to pay, on top of that, in average (per citizen), ?5.80 per day in taxes that get invested elsewhere in the country and do not come back in investment to you. This in total amounts to over 40% of the budget of the Catalan government or approx. 8.5% of the Catalan GDP.
(4) Ignores and even denigrates you for requesting greater fiscal autonomy (the two main Spanish political parties have often used the Catalan problem as a way of gaining votes elsewhere in Spain).
(5) Does not even fulfill its budgeted investments into your region. So, not only are you paying ?5.80 per day for being part of a state that goes against you systematically, but that state is liying to you about what it invests in your region; for, at the end it systematically invests much less than it tells you (so you’re actually paying more than ?5.80 per day for remaining a part of it).
(6) Requires your region to pay interests for loaning money from the state (the money coming from your own pockets) when your region does not have enough money to pay for basic services.
(6) Requires your region to pay a penalty if it does not manage to pay for the interests of such loans.
Wouldn’t you think it irrational, or masochistic, to desire to continue to be part of such a state? Please, let us be honest here. The Catalan pro-independence movement would not have grown so much if it was all a matter of plain identity. It has grown so much because people perceive the debate as a matter of being fooled vs. not being fooled by a far-away administrative reality (the state of Spain). People of all ideologies support independence (proof of this is that the unofficial referendum was brought forward with the support of 6 different parties in Catala parliament).
Pro independence flags in Christmas concert in Barcelona 2014.
http://youtu.be/YOg4M79F0CQ
Of course the Kingdom of Spain should not, under any circumstance, give independence to Catalonia.
As a Catalan and democrat, I respect but do not share your opinion…
Apart from that, I am amazed by absolute lack of argumentation you use to support your statement.
Taking into the account what Ivan Burrows said ‘The United Nations Charter Article 1.2 makes it perfectly clear that the Catalan people alone have the right to decide’. it can be stablished that you are against of The Purposes of the United Nations. Are you?
PS. Find United Nations Charter Article 1.2 attached:
‘1.2 To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;’
http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml
with fire and blood!
ask the “catalonians”
Carlos Taras Manrique Prez, you don.t have one, not even one catalanish surname, and the way you talk is so full of hate against the Spanish country. Where have you learnt that, at school?
Interestingly, only unionist people talk about surnames, hate…
Why do you do that?
I think Carlos was explaining his opinion, that’s all!
I suggest you to not be annoyed for free thinking based on facts.
And the Europe of regions?
E a Europa das regies?
Catalunha Europa.
Galiza Europa.
…
Quando que a Europa das regies?
When the Europ is for regions.
freeeeeeee cataluna :)
80% of 30% of the population of the region… get the facts straight plz….
Let us vote! Referendum is democracy
Tack Simone Nordqvist fr detta.
They should give independence to them.
What have done UE about Kosovo? What was the position of UE about the ex-Yugoslavia? Why should be different to Catalonia the position of UE?
Quien es el idiota que ha escrito esta subnormalidad??
Hay que documentarse….burro
No insultes y lee un poco más
.
The United Nations Charter Article 1.2 makes it perfectly clear that the Catalan people alone have the right to decide.
But it is interesting to see the comments on this item claiming that because the turnout was so low in the Catatonia ‘referendum’ it should be marked null & void.
I would remind those people that the turnout for referendums to join the EU are usually of the same percentage with some countries (Great Britain) not even asking the people if they want to join.
Are they saying that double standards should apply in the EU ?
The turn out for the British referendum to leave the EU will be much higher but I’m sure the antidemocratic federalists will demand a rerun of the vote (see Irish vote) until we get the ‘correct’ answer.
http://www.ukpolitical.info/european-parliament-election-turnout.htm
I received for 10 years e-mails to avoid enterprises from Catalonia, there are many FB groups with the same topic… so, many Spaniards hate Catalonia but they don’t want to let them be independent… quite stupid.
That is what Catalan see every day…
Spain does not like Catalonia but want to keep its taxes
Sad but true.
1) 70% of catalans didn’t vote !
2) the question wasn’t if you wanted independence…it was the right to decide
3) The last surveys (on December 2014) from the Catalan Government showed that most of catalans don’t want independence
I think you should get more info before asking this question
@Xaviles, I suggest you to get more information before posting you biased comments:
1) 2,3 milion votes on 5,4 potential voters is 42,6% that is quite good for a referendum set up by volunteers (no intervention of Catalan Goverment was allowed by Spanish Constitutional Court)
2) Question was not about right to decide, there were 2 questions: Do you want Catalonia to be a State? and if yes, Do you want Catalonia to be independent?
3) Last survey (on December 2014) from the Catalan Government showed that 45.3% of the catalans want Independence, 22.2 % Federal State, 23.4% Autonomous community (as it is nowadays), 1.8% Region, 6.5% Do not know & 0.9% Do not reply. Since last 2 categories do not have opinion must be removed, thus we have:
– actual support to Independence is above 48,9%
– support to improve autonomy (Federal or Independence) is 72,9%
See link below:
http://www.ceo.gencat.cat/ceop/AppJava/loadFile?fileId=22954&fileType=1
Don’t you think it is worth to let people vote in a normal referendum like the one in UK?
I am not from Spain so can only comment as an on looker but I would say why not let them have a vote? Scotland had a vote here in the UK and although they voted to stay in the UK, there was a national sense of justice that everyone got their say. That is democracy at its finest
I would also add that this is a Spanish/Catalan matter and not really a European matter. The Scottish referendum was the same, it was our concern and nobody elses and I would wish the Spanish and Catalans the same privacy
I agree with you mr British.
Unfortunately Spain sense of democracy is not existing.
That is why I have to see my president mr Artur Mas being acused of acting agains Spanish state just because he promoted a non binding vote for Independence…
What a pain living in Spain!, I want my country Catalonia to be independent, but if not posible, I would rather have same status than Gibraltar!
‘Put another way, whether either the left or right governs, we need more power for Catalonia, more resources for Catalonia, more decision-making capacity, and more protection for our language and culture.’
—Catalan President Artur Mas
http://www.wsj.com/articles/catalan-president-artur-mas-says-populist-podemos-party-an-obstacle-to-independence-movement-1427901212
Was it in 2012? I heard Catalonia will be independent in 2014.
What happened? o_0
Victor?
I see your point but it is clear you do not know catalan proindendence caracter.
We have been fighting for freedom for more than 300 years. If necessary, we can keep doing it for some years more.
2014 9N result was more than clear, that is why this fórum is open.
Current plan is vote on 27Sept 2015 elections and in case of proindependence parties victory, then create the State structures to be independent in 18 months.
Freedom for Catalonia
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Agreement to declare independence 18 months after 27-S election
(Tuesday, 31 march 2015 | CATALAN NEWS AGENCY)
‘
Barcelona (ACN).- Catalonia will be independent no later than 2017 if citizens back ‘Yes’ parties in the next election and then vote in favour of a Catalan Constitution in a binding referendum. This is according to the agreement reached on Wednesday between the two main pro-independence parties in Catalonia and the three civil society organisations that have been organising the large demonstrations of the last few years. Catalan President Artur Mas, leader of the party CDC, which is the Liberal and largest force within the two-party centre-right pro-Catalan State coalition CiU, and left-wing Catalan independence party ERC, led by Oriol Junqueras, have signed the agreement, together with the Association of pro-Independence Municipalities (AMI), the Catalan National Assembly (ANC) and Òmnium Cultural.
‘
http://www.collectiuemma.cat/article/2051/agreement-to-declare-independence-18-months-after-27-s-election
I have detected an error at the Banner Image.
The Catalan government Generalitat was created back in 13th century and was reinstated in 1931 (not created as shown in the banner).Find wiki link attached:
‘The name Generalitat dates back to the 13th century, to the medieval courts of the ancient Principality of Catalonia and the Kingdom of Valencia respectively. The term originally referred to a delegation of members of the Corts, who oversaw the implementation of the decisions of the Corts between sessions, and is derived from the Catalan Diputació del General (de Catalunya). The Catalan and Valencian Generalitats were both abolished by the Nueva Planta decrees, signed by Philip V of Spain at the start of the eighteenth century, and only reinstated after the death of Franco in 1975.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalitat
Valencia got over it, I’m sure Catalonia can do the same.
The true is that País Valencià is one of the regions most fiscally plundered in Spain and the Valencian language is pursued by Spanish institutions, specially the last years, with Partido Popular.
Valencian People still pay for their Nueva Planta Decree.
Do you think that be a Spaniard region is always a benefit?
Maybe for other regions (Andalucía, Extremadura…) but not for the regions of the extincted Corona de Aragón (Catalunya, Aragón, País Valencià, Illes Baleares.)
Catalan people will vote in 27-S, and then Catalan Parliament and Generalitat will do the rest to be a new State in Europe.
I am not from Spain so can only comment as an on looker but I would say why not let them have a vote? Scotland had a vote here in the UK and although they voted to stay in the UK, there was a national sense of justice that everyone got their say. That is democracy at its finest
Enric, I fully agree with you.
Katalonia has a huge debt, without the aid of Spain and Europe is Katalonia nobody in Europe.Calatalns they go astray.
Walter, Catalan debt is 67000 m€ that is 32,7% of GNP and Spanish fiscal plunder every year is aprox. 15000 m€
No problem, we free catalans would be more than happy to pay our debts by ourselves in 5 years and leave to EU the poor rest of Spain to play.
http://www.ara.cat/economia/Generalitat-preveu-arribi-milions-tancar_0_1259274311.html
Free for the City Wetzlar in Germany. The People in the City Wetzlar needs freedom in Germany.
If the majority of the population of any country (German Lander or catalan terriritory like Vall d’Aran) with distinct culture and institutions want Independence, it must be provided. It is a matter of human rights.
Catalonia’s leaders plan secession from Spain.
The Takeaway, April 16, 2015 · 8:45 AM EDT. Producer Hallie Arias (follow), Editor T.J. Raphael (follow).
“The leaders of Catalonia, the autonomous region in northeastern Spain that includes Barcelona, have announced that they will put in place a roadmap to secession and independence if pro-independence parties win an upcoming referendum in September.”
(…)
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-04-16/catalonias-leaders-plan-secession-spain