British Prime Minister David Cameron’s efforts to reform the UK’s relationship with Europe have suffered a series of setbacks in recent days. At a summit of EU leaders in Brussels last week (23-24 October), Cameron was presented with an unexpected bill for an extra €2.1 billion by the European Commission, after calculations showed the British economy had grown faster than expected.
Visibly angry when speaking to reporters after the summit, Cameron blasted the bill as “an unacceptable way for this organisation to work and an unacceptable way to treat one of the main contributors to the EU budget,” adding that his government would simply refuse to pay.
Another blow was delivered to Cameron’s Europe strategy after his pledge to cap the number of EU migrants arriving in the UK was rejected on principle by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who has vowed to protect the “fundamental principle of free movement in the EU”.
Now, British attempts to renegotiate the UK’s relationship with the European Court of Human Rights are also coming under fire. When Debating Europe discussed Tory plans to make European human rights rulings non-binding, we had a comment sent in from Ivan arguing that the UK should pull out of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) entirely.
The Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg is not part of the EU, but rather a separate institution established by the ECHR. Nevertheless, EU Member States are expected to sign up to the ECHR, and when we spoke to outgoing EU Commissioner for Justice Martine Reicherts, she issued a stern parting shot to the UK government over its plans.
Responding to the comment from Ivan, Commissioner Reicherts warned that the UK “cannot pick and choose” on human rights law and that if the UK pulls out of the ECHR then “they have to go the whole way” and leave the European Union as well:
Also contributing to the debate was Jo Leinen, a German Social Democrat MEP and member (and former Chair) of the European Parliament Committee on Constitutional Affairs, who warned that it would be a “catastrophe and a disaster” if Britain pulled out of the Convention, adding that the UK could find itself “violating EU law” if the EU signs up to the ECHR (something that incoming Commission President Jean-Paul Juncker has pledged to do).
However, Syed Kamall, a leading British Conservative MEP and Chairman of the European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR) group in the European Parliament, defended his party’s position, arguing that “the thinking behind removing ourselves from the European Court of Human Rights is to make sure we go back to proportionate human rights”:
We used to have precedent, we used to have common law, we used to have reason, and that’s quite often overruled. So, that is why you get judgements were many British people say: where’s the common sense?
Nobody is talking about a choice between ‘no human rights’ and the European Court of Human Rights. We say let it be proportionate, let’s go back to our well-reasoned arguments on human rights. For example, is it sensible for prisoners to have the vote? Most people in Britain think that’s not right. Of course, when they’ve done their time and they’re released, they should be allowed to have the vote again.
Then there’s the whole issue of people who cannot be deported when they’ve overstayed their welcome in Britain because there’s some tenuous human right that will be contravened. So, I think it’s all about balance and proportion, and the thinking behind removing ourselves from the European Court of Human Rights is to make sure we go back to proportionate human rights. Back to what the founders originally envisioned.
Is Prime Minister David Cameron setting himself up for an unwinnable battle by trying to reform the EU? Should Britain pay the extra €2.1 billion asked for by the EU? And if the UK pulls out of the European Convention of Human Rights, should it also leave the EU? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions!
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Britain is doomed to failure with the present government and its so called colluding opposition. The reason being it is the mirror image of Hollande in France. The economy cannot function under the weight of a twisted and corrupt City of London and its Corporations. The majority of the electorate are looking for an alternative to the Capitalist failure they have suffered under since the Thatcher/Reagan era. And they are waking up from the relentless persuasion by those freaks in Westminster that it is the cost of their social benefits for the sick and the infirm, their health service and any other benefit paid for by all working tax payers at fault. When in truth it is their Capitalist policies that are impoverishing us all. As I wrote under the previous thread, the import of millions of people from the third world as well as the Eastern peoples of Europe, who also are in dire poverty, is in order to reduce the living standards of all the indigenous who are already suffering disgracefully, by being forced to live on food bank hand outs, which is hidden by our propaganda machines. As are the thousands being made homeless in the UK daily.
Remember, the British Parliament is blaming Europe for the mess we are in and not America, where it originated, via their Wall Street corruption. Lack of tight regulations in the City brought this downfall on our collective societies and those who played this game should pay the price to reinstate our civilised hard fought for standards. With every penny they have.
Unless Europe is prepared to make the changes needed and being called for, the 500 million people paying your wages will put an end to you and it for themselves. And you deserve it. Either because of your utter ignorance, or, because you are colluding fraudsters. The French and the British nationals are not into the kind of subjugation the German and Dutch are willing to accept. You haven’t bred it from us, yet. Try as you might.
God the arrogance of some people……
“Commissioner Reicherts warned that the UK “cannot pick and choose” on human rights law”
Firstly, the UK should be able to pick and choose exactly how it treats criminals and terrorists in our own country
…and its not Human Rights Law, it has no justification to be called law in the UK.
Basically it consists of idealogical garbage dreamed up by a bunch of legal has-beens to try and justify their own existence, and unfortunately real human rights issues get clouded by their continual interference in countries domestic issues.
Every man and his dog with something to whine about who doesn’t get the response they want now takes it to the ECHR, what a waste of good money that could be used to help real human rights issues
Who is this Reichert and who elected it (not sure as of her or him so chose to stay neutral)?
How many votes did it get? And when did it participate in a democratic (underline democratic, as in ‘demos’) election?
Commissioner sounds an awful lot like kommissar, which reminds me of the word Politburo…
Marcel this is the EU and people are not allowed to vote for such things as it is not a democracy
As a Swiss I can tell you that the EU doesnt give a damn about what Switzerland, UK or whoever wants, this centralistic governed EU only cares about its secret plans for the EU(including non members like Switzerland). They are unable to comprehend that this one size fits all mentality is impossible in something as big as Europa. They are unwilling to accept that some countries are better off without EU membership, that some countries peoples just simply dont want to join, or that some nations may want to have a cooperation in immigration, trade etc. but that they need to have some exemptions or special rules for themselves because of their history, culture laws, protecting Sovereignity, independence etc.
The majority of Swiss are perfectly happy without EU membership & I look forward to the day the British leave the EU, this will give nations like Switzerland more political support.
then why in the hell are you guys members of the schengen area
The one size fits all mentality is the hallmark of any Soviet-esque system, they cannot stand diversity, they want conformity across the board.
Very well said. As a Brit, I too can’t wait until we join the real Europe along with Switzerland and Norway. The mutual respect for each others traditions and customs is what I would say best represents Europe on a golbal scale, tollerance of each others differences. I do not wish to live in the United States of Europe (more like Germany)
“I look forward to the day the British leave the EU”
Not as much as a large percentage of the UK population do!
Let them vote on it and then we shall see.
.
Any club or union that can not (or will not) change is doomed to fail.
The low MEP election turnout & rise in anti EU parties across Europe in May as been totally ignored by the EU elite who plough on regardless.
It is no longer a question of ‘will Great Britain leave the EU’ but ‘who will leave it before us’ that should concern Europe.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/29/france-historical-results-as-marine-le-pens-front-national-senators-two/
Perhaps full membership isn’t the best fit for the UK. It seems that the fundamental philosophy from which they operate is at odds with the European project. Surely some form of purely commercial, access- to-markets deal is what the UK really wants? But without EU support for the regions, life would surely get a lot more polarised between rich and poor, London and the rest.
It is not the fundamental philosophy of the UK that is the problem……….it is the fundamental philosophy of the European project which has changed beyond all recognition since the UK became a member
If the British public were told the truth in the beginning that the Common Market was just a vehicle for some extreme socialist policy of wealth distribution throughout Europe, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion today
@Rob Szabó
I agree with your first 2 sentences, well said.
However, please note that since the UK is a MASSIVE net EU contributor, if indeed the UK left the EU then the UK could give even more money to its regions than the curmudgeonly EU does as present.
The real problem is an ideological clash between the Conservative party in Britain and the EU. Also, Labour seems unable to stand for its own values and offer an alternative. The British masses are being brainwashed by the media and the government into being hostile towards an organisation that is campaigning for their own rights (shorter working hours, human rights etc). The mob is taking over?
Yvetta
Why are we being brainwashed? Maybe it’s more we can see what a state certain other socialist countries are in and don’t want to be part of it. Look at the economies of France and Italy, the huge social costs, yes everyone would like to have more for doing less but unfortunately that isn’t the way to run a sustainable economy.
Shorter working hours? Actually I’m adult enough to decide myself if I want to work 8 hours a day or 12 hours and forget the rot about people being forced to work long hours, 99.9% of people working long hours do so out of choice to earn more money
European Human rights nothing to do with the EU
@Yvetta
The portrait of the UK as painted by yourself is an exemplary lesson in EU brainwashing.
The UK does NOT lead the EU – that is the undemocratic province of the Blood Brothers (viz. Germany and France) – that is why TTIP is being pushed, at the expense of most UK citizens and indeed most EU incontinent-alists.
Indeed, TTIP is quite possibly the worst activity the EU has ever been involved with and is a sinister reminder of the Nazi origins of the risible ‘EU Founding Fathers’.
Obviously, we have two very dedicated voters of Mr Cameron here who either genuinely do not understand EU law and policy or like to intentionally slander it and misinform others. I have got one thing to say to you: Do not forget the only reason why Mr Cameron is in power is because he has been propped up by another party that is ideologically at the opposite end from him. The majority of UK voters are not impressed and do not agree with David Cameron. It would seem his supporters are just more vocal (moany) than those who simply do not care about him. I suppose the kind of person that votes for him is the kind of person that has plenty of time to come on these forums and respond and challenging every single person that contradicts their own views. However, the majority of people across Europe, which includes the UK, have had to work hard to get where they are, and they do not even have time for a debate such as this one, and they need the EU and other such organisations to campaign for their rights and to stand up to people like yourselves that don’t want anything to change because they are going to lose. Thanks.
Yvetta 70% of the British media is pro EU. If they are brainwashing us, its to vote for the staus quo, not to vote against it
hh cette fife d’indcis
Rob Szab
The ‘European project’ as been rejected by the peoples of Europe & Great Britain.
A new model is required for all countries to allow cooperation because the current federal model is unwanted by the vast majority of people.
We dont care what Cameron wants to do, he acts like that just to minimize his leaking on the right party of Farad.Eruope should not listen to whatsoever he says to be honest
@Giwrgos Filippatos
An anti-democratic voice from the country that founded democracy. Quel dommage!
Methinks Samaras should cut your benefits (and increase taxes) and sign more money over to his Franco-German banker friends.
Samaras and co don’t like you anyhow, you’re not a Franco-German banker or unelected EU apparatchik.
Wouldn’t be easier to reform the UK to make it fit the EU? Less of an effort!! But oh, wait… The Brits are better than the continentals!! Blimey!! http://eblanademocraticmove.blogspot.ie/2014/10/the-major-european-economies-are.html
“Wouldn’t be easier to reform the UK to make it fit the EU?”
There you have hit the nail on the head, that’s exactly what the EU wants of the UK and every other country
The difference is those countries receiving the hand outs are much easier to “reform” than those making the payments
@Christos Mouzeviris
Just as you decry the [truly] unreasonable treatment meted out to Greece by Germany and France you then seek to want to do same to a country that helps put the food in your country’s citizens’ bellies.
Kettle.
Pot.
Black.
That is exactly the point I want to make Tarquin! If Greece is being bullied, then why not other nations? If it happens for one member state, then it should apply to all.. Either none or all, no matter the size of the country or the economy!
@Christos Mouzeviris
Please understand, I despise the way that France and Germany have treated many countries especially Greece since 2008. Greeks have starved, Greeks have committed suicide, Greeks have been made homeless.
However, other than a Grexit, I cannot see [given Greece’s past fraud against the EU net contributors] many other ways round the problems [fiscal AND cultural] that bestride Greece at present.
@Christos Mouzeviris
Get with the programme man!!
GREECE ‘IS’ being reformed – soon it will advance from its DEVELOPING NATION/BASKETCASE status to that of a civilized low corruption-level status like, erm the UK or Germany or ANY of the Scandinavian countries…
Its a good article. So remind me why its a good idea for Britain to stay in the EU again?
Christos Mouzeviris
The British people (& every other for that matter) change to suit themselves not for an unasked for & unwanted superstate.
The EU cannot change & the peoples (nations) within it will not., it is not a British people against the peoples of Europe problem but an EU dogma against the ‘people’ problem.
@Ivan Burrows
Agreed.
Somehow in the German controlled EU, most nation states are merely following
ORDERS, sorry I mean EU rules!It’s not looking good. I think Cameron made a big mistake by setting out his “red lines” ahead of any renegotiation. He’s setting himself up to fail, and this could be a repeat of his clumsy attempt to block the Juncker candidacy – it might play well at home, but if he fails to build support for his proposals among other European leaders then he will isolate Britain.
Also, with popular enthusiasm for Miliband decidedly lacking, it looks increasingly likely we will see a Cameron-led government again in 2015, which means a referendum is almost certainly coming in 2017 (the same year as elections in France and Germany). Despite a majority of Britons saying they would vote “No” to leaving the EU according to recent polling, a lot will hinge on whether the renegotiation are seen as a failure or not.
@James McManama:
Milliband is losing the populations backing because he will not offer an alternative to the already despised Tory/Libdem/New Labour policies they have followed to destruction. In other words New Labour is simply a rerun of Tory Capitalism, or, if you want to expand, US led, EU upheld, Corporation and financial market slavery. Those politicians we have will not accept what they have bought into, no matter how long they wait and pray for a light, is not working. And why are they waiting and clinging to it the way they are? Because they and their friends are all doing very nicely out of the tax payers largesse, that’s why.
You people remind of the fish in a bowl trick. The fish repeatedly bang their snouts against the glass bowl they live in, believing they will one day be able to swim out of the sphere of their existence. They never learn that if you use the same tactics to solve a problem the only answer from your efforts will be a repeat of what you already experienced. An experiment that is long and well worn by now. But, somehow, all these so called brilliant people, who are supposed to be ‘leading’, cannot work out, that, if you take the same road, no matter how you try not to, you will arrive at the same destination. And in this case that destination is destitution for the majority. Did your mathematics teachers not let you in on that fact at a very early age? Mine did.
So, the foreign looking Miliband with his Blairite cohorts, plus what they continue to imply will be his deputy, Chukka baby, is not a winning card. And if I were his party voter I would long have realised they have no real desire to win this next election. Or, what is most important of all, change their ethos to the Labour party it once was, before they got so tightly in with the White House take over deal Thatcher began so ardently.
The only two parties on the rise in the UK are the Greens and UKIP. Now give it some thought. Why do you think that is? Could it be because UKIP is a return to the Conservative party of old and the Greens are spouting a true opposition to that, which is more or less policies of Old Labour. Where the Greens are failing is on that horrid thick Australian accnet and their open ended support of mass immigration. The British, along with many other Europeans, are fed up with tolerating the cultural mish mash that is destabilising our society. Forced on us by? We are told the EU, but, that is clearly bull as the yanks had this policy in full force decades before we had to submit to it from Europe. Globalisation is what it really is. And it will only work for the mega rich if the entire world is impoverished and beating from the same drum they have set us up for. Look at the third world and ask yourself, why are they still unable to function as a community or society on any basic level, regardless of how much Aid is pumpled into their countries decade after decade? What is holding them back? Well that is what awaits Europe under Globalisation, as it is the same people at the top leading us into it. Ultimate power is a very attractive prospect for avaricious control freaks.
UK should make up their mind, it’s in or out. You can’t be in when it suits you, but then act like a spoiled brat when you don’t like something. You are ruining it for everyone. Just decide already.
@Anamaria Ştefana Bacovia
We want to leave.
YOU will miss our money!
Can we, Netherlands get out too? Tired of our money disappearing to corrupt eastern and southern European trashheaps.
The UK should leave. Its not like it added anything usefull to Europe. De Gaulle was right when he denied them entry the first time.
So, Antonio, I hope Europe is ready to hand back the entire farcical billions in funds we donated to you ungrateful greed ridden paupers on our departure. Perhaps we can sue for it in the ECHR.
And if the people of the UK knew exactly what De Gaulle gave as his reasons for denying entry they’d have seen what sort of “club” they were trying to join. A club create purely for the benefit of French farmers and because of Gallic rampant anti-Americanism
@Antonio Pedro Bernarda
De Gaulle denied entry because he wanted to set up a skewed and biased EU that would favour France and Germany at the expense of democracy.
Nope, I also think De Gaulle did well. I have said it numerous times, the EU does not need UK to survive. Feel free to have your referendum but when more vote to stay, keep to the rules and stop crying!
@Kalin K.
De Gaulle did well for France but NOT for democracy, NOT for freedom and NOT for morality.
@Antonio Pedro Bernarda
Oops, BITING the hand that FEEDS you!
NOT very astute dear chap.
Kalin K the majority will vote to leave, every opinion poll of the last 2 years has proved so
Cameron (y)
Ah, but Paul X the anti Americanism was well placed. We would all benefit from being rid of that crap hole. They are out to scam Europe once again with their devious, back stabbing, Transatlantic Trade grab and I would rather all my tax money went to French farmers than to that bunch of traitorous freaks. You see one day, with the open door policy in place I may settle in Provence. Wonderful place full of traditional French life and style. Then I could ‘des vacance a Paris.’
The UK should have never been a part of the project. The Brexit referendum will probably be held in 2017. I totally believe in a win by the separatist faction, even tho I don’t understand how come they don’t see the suicidal move it’d be for their economy. Indeed, supported by the services, the City of London only has acquired international significance over the decades due to the preferential access to the continental market.
yet, I’m enjoying this new attitude towards Britain, as I was finding rather excessive their stance throughout the last years.
@João De Lalanda Frazão
YOU need to be corrected.
Most FTSE 100 stocks are UK, Commonwealth, US or Row and NOT EU.
PS: IF the UK goes YOU will miss our money.
63% of manufacturers in the UK want either drastic reforms or for the UK to leave, otherwise they will leave the UK. We would free up £15 billion a year by not being part of the UK. Without the UK in Europe, the entire thing will be controlled by France and Germany who agree on almost every major issue in Europe and not to be offensive but, if our voice falls on deaf ears in Brussels and we are the biggest investor in every major europeans nation, then I doubt any other nations voice will be heard. Good luck to you
The ONLY thing we voted for was the eec….everything else has been done without consent.
What for? Maybe for burocracy that less than 20% EUropeans elected? That’s not democracy and giving them money is equivalent to robbery.
I am sorry but if you are going to be a part of a community then you have to obey the rules of the said community. UK is not special. They are not the EU’s Michael Jordan or something… Thus, any special treatment towards this country should not be tolerated.
Is the UK a strong economic power – for now, yes! Will it impact the EU negatively if they left – in the short term, yes! However, the results will be catastrophic for the UK economy. The EU can survive without UK but whether UK can survive without the EU is doubtful to say the least.
So, let them do as they please and watch them beg to get back in when the time comes ;)
“Will it impact the EU negatively if they left – in the short term, yes!”
The impact will be permanent, I don’t see any other country lining up to join the EU who will be net contributing 8 Billion Euros? just more countries with their cap in hand
“However, the results will be catastrophic for the UK economy”
Completely unproven scaremongering. There is a link posted below by someone else to an article claiming UK business doesn’t benefit greatly from membership.
The EU sells more to the UK than it buys back, so who will be worse off?
3 million jobs are supposed to be linked to the EU but it is highly unlikely that 3 million will be come unemployed the day the UK pulls out
And the 8 billion we save can buy an awful lot of inward investment
Paul X. you sound to be in favor of the Brexit.
Fine with me, honestly. But some basic facts to keep in mind:
– The cost of EU membership to Britain is 37p per person, per day! The benefit of the single market access is 3.35 pounds per person, per day! (Source: HM Treasury – November 2013)
– 45% of UK exports go to the EU. 8% of EU exports go to the UK. (Source: Business for New Europe)
– EU immigrants have made a net fiscal contribution of 25 billion pounds to the UK since 2001 (Source: UCL)
– 85% of British manufacturers want to remain in the EU (Source: EEF)
Britain can do as it pleases :) However, the EU will survive without the disruptive influence of a Eurosceptic country. So, UK should decide whether they are in or out. Either way is fine with me!
Kalin, I would love a link to the first statistic just so I can see where my £2.98 a day benefit for being in the EU is going? We would be a hell of a rich country if every person in the UK is getting a net 2.98 a day just for being in the EU
I think it’s actually 51% of UK exports to the EU, but anyway in terms of actual financial value 51% of UK exports is a lot less then 8% of EU exports so who stands to be worse off? but anyway would these exports stop if the UK withdrew, I doubt it
And maybe immigrants made a net fiscal contribution but at what cost in indigenous population unemployment? There is not thousands of jobs in the UK just waiting for for immigrants to come over and start paying taxes
And the 85% of British manufacturers who want to remain in the EU were probably the same ones who wanted to join the Euro, look what state we’d be in if we had
@Kalin K.
79% of UK trade is intra-UK.
21% of UK-trade is extra-UK.
Less than half [and declining very, very quickly] of extra-UK trade is with the EU.
This figure declines significantly when the Rotterdam Effect and the Antwerp Effect [which both record UK exports en-route to Asia as UK-to-EU trade] are accounted for.
When you take out the trade the UK does with Ireland – the UK’s trade with continental Europe is c6%.
When you then consider that EU membership costs the UK c1%-2% and that the expected growth of the UK is c3% it is clear that the EU’s trade contribution to the UK is very, very over-hyped..
You are a hell of a rich country because you are a part of the EU. And it is obvious that you are ungrateful, too! :) Want a link to the first statistic? Well, there is a little thing called ‘Google’… Even lazy Englishmen should be able to use it.
In terms of financial damage 8% exports is nowhere near 45-51%… And even if those are not cut off completely (which I think they should be in case of a Brexit), they will be taxed.
Many immigrants work at lower salaries and boost the economy significantly. However, Britain will only realise that if they disappear.
Again, it’s a matter of choice… But pick one and stick with it. You can’t play in and out every time something is not to your liking. And honestly (and unfortunately) the UK will pay the recently requested amount to the EU budget and even after a referendum will remain part of the EU. And there will be thousands of British crying all over the internet… :/
@Kalin K.
LOL!
Civitas has stated that there are no net benefits for the UK being in the EU.
Only pro-TTIP business [at the expense of the 99%] ‘believe’ that the EU is good for the UK.
IF it came to it, the UK wouldn’t need to beg for re-entry into the EU if we ever left, WE could either join the USA or set up a bigger and better [COMMONWEALTH] club, in terms of land, resources, people and culture.
@Kalin K.
Before you try to critique my figures TRY to understand the difference between exports and total trade. Even a lazy in-continentalist like YOU should be able to discern the difference.
BTW, after the first 3-5 years of separation-difficulty I am sure that the EU will survive without the UK, BUT the UK will indeed PROSPER outside the EU.
@Kalin
“Well, there is a little thing called ‘Google’… Even lazy Englishmen should be able to use it”
Not unsurprisingly, given the magnitude of the claim, I have tried to find it. The fact that such dramatic figures have never been well publicised before makes me think they are at best some “massaged” statistic, or at worst, complete made up bullsh!t …a link would clarify things for me
“You are a hell of a rich country because you are a part of the EU”….lol what cr@p
We are certainly not a rich country by any means and any wealth we do have is not because of the EU (what part of net contributor to the EU budget is difficult to understand?) all we can say is we are currently doing better than the rest of the EU because we are not in the Eurozone
I know why the sun never sets on the British Empire, God would never trust an Englishman in the dark – Duncan Spaeth :D And he was right!
For all my dear british friends who are yet to learn to use Google properly – https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/259692/EU_Finances_2013.pdf
And yes, you have to read (as scary as it might be) and then you have to calculate some stuff in order to reach the real and valid conclusion, that you two lovely gentlement of limited views are obviously paid to troll around in hopes that one more voter will want to get out of the EU. That’s a life well spent ;)
Kalin
Either your reading skills or your maths skills are sadly lacking, nothing in that report indicates that the UK is anything other than a net contributor to the EU budget
Chart 2C: UK contributes 12.4% of the EU budget
Table 2A: 2013 EU budget approx 140 Billion Euros -Therefore UK contributes approx 17.4 Billion to the EU budget
Tables 3B/C the UK gratefully accepts around 4 billion back from the EU and a rebate of over 3 billion, so lets round it up and say we get 8 billion back
So the UK contributes annually 17.4 billion and receives back 8 billion so please take these figures and the UK population (Approx 64 million) and tell me how this equates to the 37p cost and £3.35 benefit (per person per day) that you quote?
@Kalin K.
Ouuchh! It appears Paul X has hit you for 6!
No one needs your ‘EU community’.
Maybe you should visit Netherlands and Germany, and then head outside elitist circles, talk to some ordinary (real) people, and be amazed to find out how hostile they are to the undemocratic Eurosoviet and the wealth-destroying Euro.
The UK is the biggest net contributer to the EU after Germany. We are one of the biggest foreign investor in both France and Germany, the EU’s two biggest ecconomies. We are the biggest military power in Europe. We run a trade defict with Europe measured in the £10’s of billions. That means we buy an awful lot more from you guys than you buy from us, making us the customer. Business 101 is the customer is always right, no? We have a partnership with the USA that puts us in a postion where we don’t need to fear a Russian invasion as even a possibility. We are part of a commonwealth of Nations where common law pervails, the population is nearly 2 billion, all the major ecconmies are growing (Australia, Canada, India etc) and no national powers or sovereignty are conceeded to each other. The UK is connected to the world and does not need the EU to maintain that.
You may not think we are any different to any other nation in the EU, we disagree.
British politics are more concerned about there public intern image than they are about Europe’s challenges to progress and development. It as always been like that. For some reason they consider themselves smarter, and never lose a chance to get their own little advantage or opt out. It’s the kind of attitude that enslaves E.U. into a doomed project, as they only look at there belly’s they loose a greater perspective. E.U patience towards England as been far too large. England seems like a member who discards it’s own family and with a “what’s in there for me” mindset they do very little to contribute to a united Europe inspired in humanistic values, economic cooperation and progress.
@Pedro Durães
When a poor beggared EU country needs to be propped up by the charity of another sovereign EU state [e.g. UK] then it is understandable that the latter country is superior – at least financially. QED.
The UK is losing patience with certain EU countries who take UK net EU contribution money, fail to acknowledge charity from the UK’s net EU contribution, defraud net EU contributors such as the UK and then UNBELIEVABLY expect to be treated respectfully.
As a European, I’m tired of my taxes being wasted on the UK rebate. “I want my money back” as a famous Brit once said!
Furthermore, the UK has a choice: stay or leave! Reforming it is perhaps necessary, but not from the Tories’ perspective (no more Parliament, all decisions by unanimity at the Council).
So it’s stay or leave, there’s no middle ground or semi-membership possible. Access to EU markets means abiding by EU regulations. Norway is not an EU member, but it abides by all necessary regulations to have access to the EU market, and that means about 75% of all EU regulations, without paying or receiving a dime. But it still needs to stand by the phone and change its own rules to suit the EU! If the UK want that, let them have that, and let them stop whining!
@Dory Moutran
You clearly don’t understand what the ‘rebate’ was designed for – it was to refund the UK for paying far, far too much to the EU because of the Franco/German biased CAP.
YOU will miss our net EU contributions though!
Your taxes are not wasted on the UK rebate. We contribute a hell of a lot more than we get back so you actually spend our taxes as we are a net contributer. That means we put in more than we take out, have done every year we have been a member.
David Cameron is still got one foot in “The Raj”,,,,, and that won’t impress the French or the Spanish or the Italians. His best bet is to ally Britain more closely with Germany. But is Cameron to proud to do that? If Britain sabotages its relationship with its neighbours where will it turn to???
@Philip Marriott
Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA…
PS: I don’t mind Germany BUT when one researches who the German EU founding founders where and their plans for a Brussels EU as recorded in the Nuremburg trials and beyond, such an eventuality becomes a tad worrying.
France has got two feet in the old French Empire, forcing disastrous economic-monetary treaties on their former colonies, keeping them structurally poor so the French can benefit.
If they leave, don’t ever let them in & boycot them
@Josephine Cassar
Boycotting would be against WTO rules.
I think the WTO is controlled by the US.
And the US would really be angry at UK leaving the EU.
Take you pick of your favorite poison.
Boycott us if you like but we buy £10’s of billions more from Europe than you buy from us so much like your idiotic trade war with Russia, you would find your own ecconomy hit harder than the one your trying to harm. We can take our pounds to India, China, the USA, Australia, Canada, Russia, Japan etc and will gladly do so the day Europe decides that they hate us for not wishing to be part of the EU.
With people like you an your attitude towards us, its easy to see why we want out
Josephine Cassar
Be careful what you wish for, boycotts work both ways.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27284489
The EU has managed to shoot itself in the foot and bring its own dissolution yet a bit closer.
Do they want out? Let `em out! Let em isolate themselves on that island
@Dănuţ Bobocel
YOU cannot afford for the UK to leave the EU!
Tarquin are you here to convince us not to kick the UK out if the EU? I thought you were trying to achieve the opposite, get the UK out if the EU!!
@Christos Mouzeviris
I have said on many occasions that I would prefer that the EU upgraded its democracy, its legal system, its accountability, its language [English of course] etc
Unfortunately, if the EU does not live up to my expectations, I personally would want the UK to leave the EU in favour of a superior Commonwealth Union that has greater resources, greater land, greater diversity and more people than the resource/democracy/accountability light EU.
Democracy as what the UK wants, the UK gets? Is that a democracy? When you are in a union of nations you can not have it all exactly the way you want it, we all must compromise. So must the UK…If not then yes, perhaps it is better to part our ways. I do not wish it, but seeing Britain (or any other of the big nations) throwing a strop when it does not get its way is ridiculous…
@Christos Mouzeviris
There are very few circumstances were democracy should be compromised!
Germany is uniquely and singularly dictating the direction of the EU, that is NOT democracy.
Similarly, allowing some endemically corrupt EU nations to have a say in my country’s democracy is NOT democracy.
The UK has a population as big as the smallest 14 EU nations such as Greece or Ireland, ergo in a democratic environment the wishes of the aforementioned countries count less than those of the UK.
You wax with risibility about benighted Greece and how it is trampled upon by the bigger EU nations but at the same time you want to exercise undemocratic beliefs by allowing a small country like Greece or Ireland [both are smaller than the UK] to trample upon the numerically [and financially] superior UK.
Money is NOT the be-all and end-all BUT unfortunately, Greece has taken the ‘EU shilling’ and is now paying [too harshly for me] a high price for its fiscal and political indiscretions at the behest of the German elite that dominate, dictate and direct the EU – as was the intention of the EU founding father Nazis.
You got a perverted idea of democracy Tarquin! No nation tells you what to do in your country, that is entirely up to you! But when you sit around a table with others for issues for which you have already discussed and agreed to share with others, then you can not have your own way. You talk to others and you collectively decide what to do. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. That is democracy. I guess you would not know, coming from a monarchy! Democracy is NOT getting your own way always or winning when you don’t get what you wanted on issues that you beforehand agreed to share!! Yes?
@Christos Mouzeviris
The Germans tell Greece what to do!
LOL!
UK has to decide whether it is IN or OUT of European Union. But as long as UK is a EU member, they should honour its obligations.
Obviously David Cameron is scared by UKIP. They are garnering huge support and sympathy for many of their policies in the UK. It is a huge change in public opinion which David Cameron must react to or face electoral defeat. The same is true for the other parties and leaders (Labour’s and Liberal’s).
Send the same message to France. They are clearly breaking their EU obligations on budget deficit . They have far more to worry about with regards to a swing to extreme right wing politics.
Though strangely they are going to be the biggest beneficiary of the 2.1Bn Euros the UK is supposed to owe the EU?…….it really isn’t that hard to see just who this “Club” is run for is it?…
@Nuno Sardinha
The Germans committed atrocities in WW2 because they were merely ‘following orders’.
If the UK’s EU obligations are unfair or immoral then unlike some Club Med countries the UK will NOT ‘follow orders’ merely for the sake of ‘following orders’.
The Anglo-Saxon approach is not without its faults BUT it is a superior offering in terms of fairness [Anglo-Saxon countries always feature as some of the most desirable places to live in the world], stability and tolerance than what is provisioned by the EU.
Antonio Pedro Bernarda
‘You are ruining it for everyone’ ?
Have you actually looked at your EU ?. millions unemployed, industries decimated, generation’s of young people with no future, the brightest of countries peoples leaving, etc, etc, etc…
You blame us for this ? lol
Do you think France will leave the undemocratic EU before or after Great Britain ?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/28/front-national-wins-seats-french-senate-first-time
Anamaria ?tefana Bacovia
Here is a small clue as to what is wrong with the undemocratic EU.
‘Meanwhile not in the idiotic Eurozone…’
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/24/uk-economic-growth-slows
Dory Moutran
Thank you for your support we will be leaving your undemocratic EU shortly.
Who will pay your bills when we leave ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-huge-surge-in-support-for-ukip-after-17bn-eu-funding-row-according-to-new-poll-9821889.html
Giwrgos Filippatos
Why would you listen to Cameron when you obviously don’t listen to the peoples of Europe.
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-elections-2014/its-official-last-eu-election-had-lowest-ever-turnout-307773
Man, I wish I had the free ammount of time Ivan had for his little “crusade”. The EU is not going anywhere, deal with. Or just bitch on the Internet. Your call.
That’s what they said about the Soviet Union in the 1980s…
@Antonio Pedro Bernarda
‘Crusade’ says the chap with a militaristic [why?] selfie! LOL!
The EU will ultimately be swallowed up by one of the other larger trading blocs, probably a US-dominated one. Already, steps are afoot to bring such a scenario to fruition eg TTIP.
I am not a fan of the EU as-is [it needs major reform and if the UK cannot cherry-pick then the UK can and must go] but TTIP and thereafter a Western Bloc Union will ride roughshod over any [false] common ‘European identity’.
Ivan is a UKIP troll.
He spams EU posts on Facebook also with his insane propaganda.
Probably he’s an unemployed lazy person who is angry someone else took his job because he wasn’t qualified enough.
Boo-hoo, EU is bad, boo-hoo.
@ Dory , It is us wasting our taxes at you lot.
@ Josephine , We buy more from you the you buy from us….bring your boycott on , see who wins….it won`t be you!.
Pedro Dures , What family?.
The U K is janus faced when it comes to international and European law especially the European Court of Human Rights.
They bitch about the Spanish being overzealus on its border with Gibraltar. But conveniently forget that EVERY PERSON traveling fromm Ireland to England, Scotland or Wales was stopped for years. Indeed people travelling within Ireland were always questioned when they crossed the border.Indeed they often imposed internal exile on people by preventing them from traveling from from Belfast to London.
They also forget that they were found GUILTY of torture of its own citizens before the same court. The British are what I consider “A La Carte” Europeans.
@William P Fagan
1…ECHR – some of the judges [ex-diplomats and worse] aren’t even qualified! Furthermore, the UK is one of the most observant of EU nations re said court’s decisions. Furthermore, the ECHR is not a common-law system and is thus more prone to corruption and worse.
2…Your comparison involving Spain was FUNNY. FTR, I was stopped many times when I popped over to Ireland to see my relatives – I didn’t mind one jot as I didn’t want to be bombed!
3…I’m not doubting your veracity BUT have you got a link to back up your assertion please?
4…The only way to keep the UK in the EU is to allow the UK to cherry-pick.
Of course.
could someone in this discission switch on the brain ? and do research `? UK knew since May 2014 this budget contribution was coming up and PM Cameron agreed the system …so what ? and please you Swiss.. look how your people and institutions are suffering withour all that EU money after your last foreigner vote…ask them ….its time some people in GH stand up for Europe and fight this SVP nonsense…
@Udo Seiwert- Fauti
I agree with U-doh!
Have you done your research?
The budget contribution has been backdated to 2002 and includes UK contributions from said date for EU countries that were NOT even in the EU in 2004 or indeed 2008!
Even someone who has failed to do their research can see that such an eventuality is IMMORAL!
Cameron, pay the money and let’s not bring out debates about Britain’s multibillions pound EU REBATE! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036802.stm
Olivia ,reading some of your posts you really do need to go away and educate yourself in the level of contributions made by member states and the monetary value of the Rebates recieved,you seem at best to have a very tenuous grasp on the facts.
If you want to offer your opinion that’s fine,but at least base it on some knowledge and not on random guesswork and lack of knowledge.
I do not understand why Cameron is so surprised, after all that recalculation was and is made by the Member States, themselves, which means that UK contributed for this hike. ;)
David Fuzzey no, it is Europe wasting good investments and money on UK when Uk could go out and EU make money on UK expense! ;) Uk is receiving a HUGE refund on the membership fee, gets a LOT more out of Eu than ever put in, and Brits think that they are the center! Go out and let EU take the piss out of UK, economically! Then u ll see UK real value! Thank god, i will still remain an European! Let me educate you on what money Uk really puts in the EU! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036802.stm
@Olivia Sena
Its a nominal ‘rebate’ – it should in fact be called a CORRECTION.
The ‘rebate’ came about because France and Germany deliberately created a CAP that would mean that the UK would pay far, far more as a net EU contributor than France or Germany – both of which are bigger countries. When the UK quite rightly complained the rebate/refund/CORRECTION was agreed.
Furthermore, the UK gives away £3billion/year in terms of lost fishing rights to the likes of Spain and Portugal.
YOU need to understand that without the UK, the EU will FAIL!
However, the UK could just join the USA or indeed a UK Commonwealth if it wanted to, id est the UK has options. Only [perhaps] Spain in the EU has a similar option albeit with lesser and poorer nations perhaps.
PS: Your very old statistic only supports the fact that the UK pays far, far too much to the EU – you hoisted yourself by your own petard.
Olivia
The rebate is purely based on CAP and the fact that the UK as one of the highest contributors to the EU budget doesn’t benefit much from CAP
A previous UK government has already given up gave up 20% of our rebate on the condition that there would be major reform of CAP.That reform never happened so until we can start trusting the EU to deliver on its promises we are entitled to keep the rebate.
The ball is firmly in the EU court regarding the UK rebate, keep to your word and reform what is a completely biased and unfair CAP system then our rebate will go.. it’s not rocket science
Unfortunately the biggest fly in the ointment is France and it’s militant farmers who will never want to give up the CAP payments they get for sitting on their behinds drinking wine all day
PMSL 2009??…we put in 5 Billion more than we get out and what a waste that is ……….https://www.facebook.com/downwiththeEU/photos/a.178099318917295.46530.178095768917650/794484883945399/?type=1&theater
Unfortunately YES!
The EU was set up by Germans with colourful Nazi pasts with the help of the collaborative French.
Any attempt to change the status quo by the UK would reduce the power of Germany and its poodle France.
Not so fast! I think he began gaining grounds. The new proposal restricting immigrations inside europe is in the making.
Really? Link to article please, this will erupt in a huge scandal if they pass this.
I think most of you need to have a look @ this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-y75YQXQAo
It basically says that the UK court have an option taking EU law or UK law and when the conflict cannot be resolved UK national law have the final saying.
So I wonder what’s the real tone of Tories’ proposal and it seems to me now that the EU wants britain out more than those Kippers do, since CETA is on the go and TTIP about to breakthrough that will certainly leave the UK an awkward position.
Well perhaps the pro is that they can deal with the Chinese and the Russians more freely now? Let’s hope so. Since they’ve turned a blind eye on the HK democracy mvmt, perhaps one day the tories wll submit themselves as the 32nd province of China while the rest of the western world enjoys democracy, human rights and the rule of law.
Who cares? The EU doesn’t care.
I feel sorry for all the sane people of UK who want to stay within the union and work to better it.
But as a whole Britain needs a good kick in the teeth – HARD – to lose that ego problem it still has from its empire days.
Farage is the mover and shaker and with this little show, they are only trying to upstage him to regain some home electorate. It won’t work.
What the UKIP and tories desire that exists nowhere=to participate in the benefits and to leave the disadvantage and charges to the others.
@Péter Sebők
The costs of the UK being in the EU is very high, the benefits are too little and too few.
YOU will miss our money if we go!
There are no benefits, unless you are a rich banker.
“You will miss our money if we go”
Typical englander mentality of consumerist drone.
We will miss you as a PEOPLE and CULTURE, but we can’t FORCE you to like us.
Go and leave us be.
You’re like a bad spouse who threatens divorce every day but doesn’t go through already.
@Crayven
YOU will miss our money if we [UK] go!
Quite right too.
Your country is not experienced in matters ‘democratic’ and thus value money way, way, way above democracy.
Your country was convinced to join the EU because of the putative financial benefits of joining same.
My point stands.
If he pays that money, he will loose next term.
It is quite clear that the UK will not get the reforms it desires .
We may as well just get on with a civilised departure and leave those who wish to build their socialist empire to get on with it .We of course would wish them all the best
You got that right, bro.
Leave the Tories to build their socialist empire with Russians, Chinese and Brazilians. The idea itself already made me high!
First of all, the European Court of Human Rights is not an institution of the EU. Second, it is a Court which works hard to lose all credibility by inventing new “human rights” every few weeks.
There is a difference between “reform” and scrapping the HR out of spite for citizen’s rights.
the ehcr constantly puts the rights of rapists and murderers before innocent victims.And i do NOT want to `pick and choose` , i want OUT of your union completely.Also….feel free to stuff eu law.
And in Russia and China no one is “innocent”, which is perhaps why the Tories want to follow suit.
Yeah, ot HELL with those “human rights” !
Pff..who needs them, right?
Hahaha !
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/28/china-summit-lse-eu-idUSL5N0SN5FG20141028?utm_content=buffer656b5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Yet another evidence of who really wants to build a soc…sorry, communist empire.
Islander VS continental mentality.
Watch this disgrace of democracy on its feet. Lying from the time its mouth opens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-29818975
The Scots were the dumb crowd when they believed this freak was going to hand them power. If, of course, the vote wasn’t rigged, which it appears it may well have been.
Feast your eyes on these benefit fraudsters, braying to the moon in their lycanthropic lunacy. Ebola is on its way and central London will be the most affected. The place is a stinking hell hole of filth. Calais style.
More “pc treaties” coming: …..UK….“violating EU law” if the EU signs up to the ECHR (something that incoming Commission President Jean-Paul Juncker has pledged to do).”……..Hear, hear!
Interesting this EU bickering! Has the Battle of (the Bulge) Brussels begun in earnest?
Why not keep ones credit card in ones own pocket- not subject to sharing, control & constant scrutiny by a deployed EC & ECB board and a core of hell bent treaty writers & a nodding EP.
http://fordhamilj.org/articles/human-rights-the-european-union-and-the-treaty-route-from-maastricht-to-lisbon/
It demonstrates that the EEC’s magical transformation into an overly complicated EU became a questionable “ungovernable spider web’, failing to satisfy all equally! The EU crunch should come sooner than 2017!
Keep it simple; keep Europe united but preserve its member’s sovereignty.
I believe, EU-Proactive, that political correctness and the ill informed lies that kind of enforced subjugation has on the citizens, is the underlying cause of the downfall of the EU and of any faith in the ECHR we once had across each one of our States. I knew when I saw years ago the lying figures of polls that claim the population are for a certain policy or doctrine that you knew was so unpopular you began to doubt your sanity when you read them.
Why do they lie about policy? There is only one reason for it and that is, they know it will unacceptable should they speak the truth of their agenda. However, the biggest question we have to ask and this newspaper article I’m putting up gets to the heart of it, who is it at the back of all this spin? It claims, in this little offer, that those who are governing us in reality form the underbelly of what are, in fact, teenagers. Could that be why our so called leaders all sound like infants out straight out of kindergarten?
Read through this piece and especially take in the comments beneath it and there you will see what no poll ever tells you and that is, what the UK public really want to say and what they really think and feel. And if we open that up to scrutiny it covers the entire European States in this Union. The citizens have been lied to, ignored and ridiculed, to the point they will no longer stand for it. AS, that is not democracy in any shape or form.
Read all about it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2813408/Politically-correct-teenage-spin-doctors-attack-Tory-backbenchers.html
Good day Catherine,
My sentiment rests with today’s educated & informed “populace”- not the “uneducated mob” of the past hundreds of years- so eagerly used by the PC press, politician, lobbyists and spinners to demonize its opposition! Let them be ignored as punishment- until the day of reckoning!
However, the genuine believers- in this unworkable EU- need to be listened to- not through public shouting & show off matches- but sensible discussions in serene places! I try to avoid argumentative behavior, pedantry & emotions- rather address principles & possible solutions.
I made- for example- my opinion very clear on immigration. I cannot understand that immigration (a “shortage” of some kind) cannot be seen as a function (demand) by a growing economy to address a skill shortage (if any) or deficit of manpower (if any) in a professional & controlled manner!
Instead, the EU portrays it as a free for all, emotionalizes & ridicules the one or the other- having taken/contracted away the Members competence without control or known figures on real local labor shortages etc. etc! Another Russian roulette being dumped on a competence-less populace!
One does not need to uproot people in one country, allow them wander or squat around in another one, without having work or not being a tourist. EU policy has instructed its Members to act as a waiting room for anybody who is clever enough to claim poverty or persecution- while most are in fact plainly “economic refugees” taking a chance- using disorganized misery in their home country as (unacceptable) reason! Real war refugees (Syria) are being disadvantaged because Europe is saturated, tired and furious in the meantime.
The only way to wake & shake up the EU, EC, and EP is for the first courage’s country to start the process soonest! Called by Jo Leinen, the German Social Democrat MEP a “catastrophe and a disaster”! So let it be! I am looking forward for a major EU eruption & rebirth! UK & France go & be fearless others may follow!
Although I have to admit the EU has gone wrong in many ways…,David Cameron is not trying to reform the EU but is fighting it in a moany and unprofessional way. We cannot be sure what the result will be, as other members are also not happy but, as long as we just moan we are not concentrating on fixing what is actually wrong with the EU. Another new problem is that the “Eastern European” members have now started looking Eastward towards Russia and adopting Soviet-era style policies, proving that they were never ready to enter the EU to start with. The positive thing right now is that expansion has at last been put on hold. So perhaps other things are going to change as well and the union will be saved. However, I am not sure that David Cameron is contributing to this change at all. His statements and behaviours are not constructive at all and often do not befit a politician.
My country hasn’t and it desperately tries to stop – along with Poland – russian influence.
It is Hungary and Bulgaria who have allowed the russian PLAGUE to infiltrate Europe.
And these fools are arguing about the EU’s future while the bear is at the door !
@Crayven
Russian plague? Hmmm, if you are not referring to something along the lines of Ebola then methinks your comment was RACIST!
And who exactly does the unelected Reicherts think they will get to cover for the loss of Britain’s net contribution? France? I’m sure Hollande can find another billion or 10 to cut from education, pensions, welfare and healthcare to hand over to Brussels.
Britain holds all the cards here. It can recoup its net contribution and be better off outside the EU. Not one British job depends on the existence or membership of the EU. Trade requires the WTO but not the EU.
We the Netherlands want to leave with you, Britain. Sick of having to pay for eastern European and southern European profiteers.
Cool , lets go then.
I have a shipyard in my “eastern Europe city”.
Take that back home and you can exit the EU.
IF workers can’t move, THEN CAPITAL won’t move either, you bastards !
Britain and every other country should pull out not only from thre ECHR, but also from the unreformed EU.
It`s the hard earned money of the British people that the greedy and bureaucratic EU wants to snatch and throw in the sink of senseless EU projects. Britain should tell them to sod off.
The calculations are based on GNI and recalculated every year. The benefits are obvious, if GNI is growing faster than in other parts of Europe. These things move up and down, and are in place to ensure fairness. When the amount is reduced, the silence is deafening. Cameron is an immature politician, trying to bully the EU into giving Britain influence and a free ride. That is not on with the rest of Europe. Britain is acting as if it were a US State, and should take the consequences or shut up and pay.
It may be calculated every year but this year they have included dues back dated to 2002. This stinks of incompetence in itself, how can it take 11 years to realise a country is apparently not paying enough?
To me the money isn’t the big issue, it is the whole question of the crass stupidity of the EU in presenting this “bill” knowing full well the current strength of anti EU feeling in the UK. It’s either complete ignorance of diplomacy or it is all part of a plan to drive the UK out of the EU but whatever it is it certainly doesn’t give confidence that people making these decisions should be in a position of power.
Equally as stupid is presenting two of the current worst performing economies (Greece & Italy) with a bill, and then handing back cash to the “powerhouse ” of Europe, Germany
The whole thing just reeks of typical EU arrogance that they are the masters and individual countries and that national governments are just an inconvenience to be trodden underfoot
The thieving tax-exempt unelected Brussels apparatchiks and politicians are the ones that need to keep their mouth shut.
Britain doesn’t need the undemocratic Eurosoviet Union at all, but the Eurosoviet desperately needs Britain’s net contribution. Who do they intend to get to cover for the loss of this net contribution when Britain leaves? France? Greece?
Anyway, as for ‘fairness’, how would you like it if you were the highest earner in the street you live in, and your neighbours gang up on you demanding you surrender some of your money in the name of ‘fairness’? If your neighbours vote 27-1 or 26-2 you should give them money, do you do it? Was it a ‘democratic’ vote? Of course not!
The sooner we are out of your shite union the better.And your shite union behaves like a bananna republic…cameron may be immature but your unions politicians are useless , pointless trough feeders.
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
@ Paul X:
You are not on the page. What the EU is doing is in fact as you suggest, wanting Britain ‘out’ of their club. But, here is the real reason. They cannot tolerate British people having lost their fear of speech. Which means they are beginning to let their truth be heard. And the rest of Europe, as you can see from this forum of yesteryear, was terrified to say what they felt, they were so stifled by indoctrination they were blind to the freedom of thought they had lost.
German, Holland and the Scandinavians are beginning to realise that the mind of the people of the UK, on open democracy or free speech, is not something they can tolerate any longer. And the EU fear it cannot shut its mouth of truth. As much as Cameron is an old shifty messer, his team have allowed some open debate, well, a lot more than what was denied under the previous bunch of lying low life crooks. And, Frau Merkel, is well aware the Germans feel exactly the same as the French and the British on all the same issues they have been forced to swallow. The tongue tied, Dutch, Austrian, Italians and Greeks, are also rising loud and clear, which means, the European subjugation of their people will fail as it is and to save Europe as a stultified united continent they want will not be possible with the British biting at their heels. Because that means if they don’t get rid of us, they will have to bring in Democracy, in its real sense. Which the public have shown they are willing to join in, if the British dare, then so can they. As I said in a previous post on another thread, the people of the UK are going to, once again, save our continent of blood brothers and sisters from fascist disaster. As much as they like to scream they hate us.
That is why Brussels don’t like the British, they remember they have their beginnings in Magna Carta. That little contract set up to put Barons at peace. Without those rulers awareness, they set us all free, one way and another. Us and the entire continent of Europe.
Hear Hear
I used to love the Brits when I was growing up, I always favored them over the French or the Germans.. You know what changed my mind? Your attitude towards other nations!! It is ok for some of your compatriots to hate the EU, or be against it. But why do they always have to attack or insult other nations to achieve what they want or just moan about it? I am sorry I have a great respect for your country but you are not perfect. You know that there is a lot of problems and issues unsolved, issues that sometimes place Britain lower than many Eastern European nations that your compatriots mock. Social issues. That your government ignores! Instead of mocking other people’s hunchbacks, why don’t you try to fix your country first? And please I do not want to enter into an immature discussion of “yeah but we are better in this and that”… You are a great country, but it would be more preferable to be an integral part of Europe, and yes perhaps why not, leading it!! I believe that you are more capable of that than the French!! But you are too stuck up and arrogant, conservative and funny enough narrow minded in this issue, while you are so broad minded in others!! If Britain wants to lead Europe, (which I hope one day it will) it won’t achieve it by bashing Europe, the EU, and every nation that does not have your mentality or way of doing things. If Britain wants to change Europe, it must first embrace it, accept it and then start working with each region to find a common ground and solve the issues, or perhaps even win over the hearts of the local governments and aspire them to follow you. Lead by example, not by snobbery!! Amen!!
More like the EU can no longer tolerate the LIES you dopes gorge across the channel and that asshole Rupert Murdoch continues to pump via his media into your empty skulls!
Please, for the love of god just LEAVE already and do the EU a favor.
You don’t like us, we won’t force you to stay, get out please. Enjoy being a 3rd world dump with zero power in the world stage and a dump economically as all finance moves to Europe WHERE THE CUSTOMERS ARE !
If you want your “true democracy” change the system, don’t bitch and demand PRIVILEGES over others.
THAT IS NOT DEMOCRACY !
@Crayven
Change the system!?
55 times since 1996 the UK has asked the EU Council of Ministers to stp/change laws and EVERY time the UK lost.
So far, it has been IMPOSSIBLE for the UK to change the minds of the UNDEMOCRATIC EU.
For the UK to stay the EU MUST CHANGE.
If the calculations are recalculated every year, why the EU wants sums from 1995?
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5323/another_eu_rip_off?utm_content=buffer0eb80&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/auf-wiedersehen-britain-merkel-ready-to-cast-uk-adrift-over-migrant-quotas-9834484.html
After thinking deeply about this event reported in the press this morning, I have come to the conclusion that Ms Merkel is so right. The best way to ‘de-globalise’ is to insist the UK leaves the EU if they don’t like its politically correct policies. Globalisation is political correctness, dictated by the USA. That country began with the foul and life changing muffling of citizens long before it was part of the UK or EU modus operandi. Secrecy, as in secret courts and banking fraud all springs out of keeping people muffled. We are not longer allowed to speak out, as we see in the attacks on demonstrators trying to fight against it, right across the Western societies. The rise of alternative political parties growing at an alarming rate.
The moment the UK leaves the EU the quicker the control of world finance and banking will diminish. Anti freedom, anti competitiveness, anti culture resulting in no shred of independence can only resolve the moment the Europeans return to democracy as they know it. One man one vote and oust those we no longer have trust in.
So, the UK out will precipitate the break up of the entire block. The wealthy States have already found their people are not prepared to foot the bill for the destruction of their way of life. Once the UK with its enormous fiscal impact leaves, so will the French, the Dutch and the others who are already hanging on by a thread. And then, will the German worker really want to finance the rest of the cabal. I don’t think so.
This will leave the US without the Europe it’s presently mastering and wants to pillage further. And as it is as backward thinking as it has ever been sociologically that will have broken the grip they have world wide.
It is all about money
If the uk stopped or curtailed foreign immigration from say Muslim related countries coming into the uk with their 3 wife’s and going on benefits and taking into account how many Muslim’s live in the uk the uk would financially be a lot better of bearing in mond there marriage cannot be traced as there are not registered in Australia one family claims 2500$ a week there wife’s sign on as single mothers The media followed this up over a period of 7years he accumulated 1000000$ so ask yourself how many more are doing iy
http://www.wsws.org – in addition to understand today’s EU problems better- even the most anti communist/Trotskyite/Stalinist readers might find strolling through some interesting articles on this “socialist site” refreshing and help to give perspective & balance to the present EU struggle! It’s always best to look at problems from as many angles as possible before making a decision.
There need to be a strong & determined EU coalition of the “fearless”- not worried about their future political security- to call the bluff to this political poker game & its unruly rules! UK- don’t concede & do not wait for 2017!
So much delusions it is amazing.
Also quoting the independent, really?
” Once the UK with its enormous fiscal impact”
WHAT “enormous fiscal impact” ??
YOU GET MORE THAN YOU PAY!
Them rebates add up to quite a lot. How convenient for you to “forget” that !
Pay your damn 2bn euros bills, you cheapskate islanders!
Even scotland, which is stereotypically greedy and cheap is more willing to work together with the EU.
Your whole comment reeks of conspiracy nuttery.
“Cabal” ? What “cabal” ?
Those people are ELECTED.
@Crayven
The UK is the 2nd/3rd [arguably the] largest EU net contributor – please provide bona fide EVIDENCE of your INCORRECT extremist POV.
You do your bllghted/benighted/’shited’ country no favours by failing to adhere to the truth.
Where do you hail from again dear [inaccurate] chap?…
In my experience of talking to people,the majority of British people ( of all races) wants out of the EU,it appears that the EU wants us out of the EU.
Will someone please please tell me why we haven’t left of our own accord,or been kicked out.
Either would suit me fine.
@EU Reform- Proactive
The EU was constructed to advantage Germany and France and to disadvantage the UK.
Why should the UK suffer from a negative asymmetric relationship with the EU incontinent-alists?
IF the EU wants the UK to stay ‘in’ the UK should be at the top table AFTER having picked a few ‘cherries’. – after all the UK is arguably the biggest net EU contributor and we are now suffering from having to support SOME of the flotsam and jetsam from the EU incontinent.
@Tarquin
Not batting on a full wicket- or from the 19th hole?
Your outer continental remark seem to be addressed to an equally o.c. islander like “Ericbanna”- not a pure continental- giving you some in-continental happy nightmares?
Maybe just a slip with your o.c. mouse than? What’s the relevance anyway?
@EU Reform- Proactive
Thou doth drink too much [alcohol], methinks! ;)
Also, please refrain from referring to incontinent-alists as ‘pure’ – its derogatory old chap.
The UK is the best example of what different nations can achieve together by forming a union.All we, unionists, hope for, is that EU could end up as successful a union as UK is. So when the moment comes of this historical decision , I hope that the peoples of UK will vote as wisely as the Scots did recently …
Don’t you get it? The Tories would even risk the United Kingdom breaking apart to get themselves stay in power.
If the UK even THINKS it can bully the EU into reaping benefits and NONE of the costs then they and their UKIP idiots are about to get a really cold shower!
To hell with Britain, KICK them out of the EU. Continentals are sick and tired of the WHINING and constant OBJECTIONS to any progress.
They are more of a hinderance than a member.
There are no benefits.
I’m sure you got 10 billion euros lying about that the EU will need (every year) to cover for the loss of Britain’s net contribution.
Yes, surprisingly to you Tarquin and Paul, the three stooges, the EU is not just about “benefits”.
It’s no longer “just free trade”. So either shut up and deal with the new reality, or just get the hell out.
You won’t get a PENNY slashed from your FAIR FREE as a member and you won’t get to dismantle one of the EU’s FOUNDING principles.
Merkel was adamant – props to her.
This is amazing.
In an UNION the strongest support the weakest, not shove them into the pit to save themselves.
It is called UNION for a reason you selfish bastards.
If you were the poor guys you sure would love to be helped out by the stronger.
But hypocrisy is easy to maintain if your brain is washed daily with right-wing propaganda against the EU.
Even the rich should pay more in taxes.
Why?
Because they earn it due to the society in which they live so they should pay more BACK TO SOCIETY and help others become like them.
Same with countries.
You are basically saying we should thank all those who built the ladder to get up to the top…THEN PULL THE LADDER UP so they can’t reach the same height us as too !
Unbelievable!
@Crayven
Your country joined the EU under false pretences.
You lied about your country’s financial status [dire], level of corrugation [unbelievable] and police/judicial probity [almost non-existent] and then you LAUGHABLY want to talk about SOLICHARITY!
You look like a troll, you post like a troll, gadzooks you ARE a troll!
@Crayven
Be careful what you wish for…
YOU, a citizen of a poor benighted, beggared, buggered, basket-case nation would miss the UK’s money.
NB: Given the new EU contributions requirement it is arguable that the UK with its £b/year loss of fishing rights is the largest EU net contributor.
@Crayven
Please refrain from posting hyper-emotional diatribe.
You only reinforce a certain negative stereotype associated with denizens of countries unaccustomed to democracy, fair mindedness, equality and rule of law.
Where do YOU hail from again old chap?…
You’re just sad.
If you think i personally want to be part of the EU “because i gain financially” then you’re delusional and need to put down Daily Mail propaganda.
@Crayven
‘Financial Gain’ was part of the EU propagandist spin prior to Romanian entry to the EU. Your comment is at odds with reality old chap.
Its blatantly obvious that in order to get their EU budget 2005-2012 rebate, the French lied through their teeth about their economy.
Maybe they did, in which case an inquiry should be made in this matter.
But Britain is still on the hook for its 2,1 BILLION.
@Crayven
Maybe? Typical extremist pro–EU response!
2.1 billion? (whether pounds or Euros you are WRONG!).
I am from Italy and I am experiencing the “eurodisaster” first hand. Not only everything costs 3 times more than it used to when we had liras, but worse of all, the italians (expecially from the south) are migrating to Belgium or Germany.. Just like their forefathers did 100 years ago. Italy is as well experiencing problems with illegal immigrants from eastern european countries and northen africa. Cannot do anything about it beacause now Italian border is Scenghen border. Great Britain wants to permanently quit the EU? Kudos for them. I wish Italy had the balls to do so. Britain has very little in common with the rest of Europe besides being located in the same continent, I respect it for not bending down to bruxells.. And frankly I think the EU should thanks the UK for taking 60% of the inner eu immigrants from the east. If the UK wasn’t in, you’d find them all in Germany or France. Do you even want to force Britain to switch road signs into KM and lose the Pints? How can you ask so much after all it did for you or, EU.
Nice comment. Thanks.
For Cameron, reform of the EU means handing back some EU powers to member states, and an end to “ever closer union”. From the EU’s point of view, this is not “reform” but a death-blow.
Cameron wants to change the fundamentals of the EU. This is more than just “reform” but rather tearing it down and starting again. This is why he won’t succeed. But he doesn’t want to leave the EU either. So with Cameron et al in charge, we in the UK will continue to be frustrated members of the EU.
Heavy weather! Continent disconnected from UK.
Ah Blugalf the Wise How times change, it used to be Fog over the Channel the continent cut off. Hohum. You must spend an awful lot of time in front of your screen. You clearly need a better hobby. Rant number 189 I guess I should get out more too.
The U K is the tail trying to wag the tail of the E u Dog. Shut up, sit down and be quiet.
Britain doesn’t need the EU it’s the head of the commonwealth nations and has been offered better deals with Asia without the EU. Europe needs britain though, I’m voting to leave let the Germans and French pay the difference and keep all the migrants including those flooding in from the Middle East. Good luck europe your going to need it…. I shall be waving at you from my peaceful, richer sovereign nation.
The U K is no longer an world power. It needs Europe more than Europe needs the U K.
How many U K based jobs are from European Head quartered or global companies??. Nissan motor cars are one such example.
Cameron’s main problem and main strength is the eu immigrant crisis. Eu can’t secure it’s borders and clearly British conservatives sniff weakness in eu’s leadership. So the problem is mainly with eu indecisiveness that makes alot of people live in fear. Europeans need solutions in security and immigration reforms and Cameron is not eu’s enemy in this matter.
May I remind you Adam that the U K CANNOT Control its own border.
For years and years they bitched thegovj in Dublin were not doing enough to stop criminal activity. Completely ignoring the fact that they created the artificial border for political reasons. they also had up to 50,000 security personal in the occupied counties, Have 15 times the population of the republic. So I think they should start getting their own house in order before they start bitching about other’s failings.
Stop blackmail. Eu has to ask UK to join EUROZONE if they want to keep the ‘CITY’.
Shut up you silly man.The UK will never join the Euro zone it’s failing.We be out soon I personally cannot wait.