cataloniaA Scottish “Yes” would certainly have boosted the spirits of Catalan separatists. But, in the recent Scottish referendum, 55% of voters chose stay in the UK versus 45% who cast their ballot for independence.

During the campaign, tough questions were asked about Scottish EU membership, currency union with the UK, Scotland’s share of the national debt, etc. Given that Scotland will remain part of the UK (for now), none of these questions have been answered. Meaning no precedent has been established and uncertainty still remains for other independence movements hoping to reassure voters about the risks of going it alone.

Nevertheless, many in Catalonia are pleased that the referendum took place in Scotland at all. Madrid, unlike London, has not agreed to a referendum, so Catalan President Artur Mas has pledged to hold one unilaterally. Earlier this month, the Parliament of Catalonia passed a law providing for a non-binding referendum on independence to take place on 9th November.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy hopes the law will be struck down as unconstitutional by the courts. If this happens, Mr Mas could call early elections and turn them into a de facto referendum on independence. However, his minority nationalist government has been losing popularity, and the separatist Catalan Republican Left (ERC) – which currently supports his government – could come out the winner.

In Scotland, there were ugly scenes following the vote as nationalist and unionist supporters clashed and had to be separated by police. However, the political tensions in Catalonia could be even worse if the referendum there is declared illegal and police are called in to disrupt the vote. It is unlikely to come to this, as having a banned referendum take place would be a nightmare scenario for both Madrid and Barcelona, but time is running out for a political solution.

Has the Scottish “No” vote made Catalan independence less likely? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.

IMAGE CREDITS: CC / Flickr – Ivan McClellan

136 comments Post a commentcomment

What do YOU think?

  1. avatar

    I am Swiss and in Switzerland Direct Democratic votes are something normal and part of our Democracy & Freedom, I believe that conflicts can be averted by the use of Democratic tools, if you do not make it possible for the Catalan people to have a Democratic vote on this issue that they say is important to them then dont complain when they create some kind of Rebels etc. and start using violence. Let them vote!

    • avatar

      Whats about if a part of Switzerland want to vote and decide for all country? Is not fair right? We need to vote everyone. This is the case in Catalonia. The law says that Spain (catalonia inside) must to vote if we want. Everyone, not a small part only and they decide for the others…thay want this

    • avatar

      Nonius9, If a part of Switzerland would like to vote about Independence, I am sure there would be no problema, because it is a real democratic country.
      On the other hand, Spanish democracy is not only fragile but also used to crush minorities wishes and aspirations.

  2. avatar

    Of course not. The referendum in Scotland and the democratic spirit with which it was held, has exposed Spain’s Government intransigence even more. Catalan independence is now more likely.

    • avatar

      I don´t think so ! It´s against reason to divide the actual European States in smaller ones.

  3. avatar
    Aleksandros Ho Megas

    Of course not. And since Scottish one was rigged against their own people, it is likely that Catalan one will be even more inclined against central nondemocratic government.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Aleksandros Ho Megas
      Of course it was rigged – oh, err is that a porcine animal with levitational abilities I see before me?

      The YES vote gave 16 and 17 year-olds the vote knowing that the majority of said kids would vote for them.

      The YES vote gave EU foreigners the vote knowing that they too would vote for them.

      As regards Catalonia I can’t see an endemically corrupt Spanish government giving them the vote.

  4. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Its completly different. Spanish laws says that these decisions must be answered by Spanish people (voting). Catalonia don’t want that Spanish people vote, only them want to vote, so is not fair. For this reason, according with Spanish law, and history (Catalonia is not a country as Scotland and never was), central government don’t allow this consulting.They can not allow.

    • avatar

      I agree with you. Catlonia was never an independent country as Scotland was. It was only free between the IX and XII centuries. But then it made part of The Kingdom of Aragon, as Barcelona County, and Aragon and Castile united in 1471 making the actual Spain, plus Grenade and Navarre.

  5. avatar
    catherine benning

    Why is Spain afraid of a vote? Are they doing something they know their peoples don’t want? Is Spain a democracy or a Dictatorship? Why isn’t the EU insisting on Democracy across all European states the way it is in Switzerland, as SK writes above. Direct Democracy would do away with the need for these urges to separate. The citizens would be able to ensure they were ruled from the bottom up not the top down. Except it would have to be properly policed to make sure the vote isn’t rigged, as appears may be the case in Scotland.

    This is a ridiculous question,. of course these people have a right to vote in whatever way they choose to do so. If they don’t want to give them this freedom, why are they in a union that pretends to be democratic?

    • avatar

      Spanish people can not voting!! Thats the point. The law says that Spanish people must to decide if we want to change something. But Calalonia only wants to vote catalonia people, thats is against law.

    • avatar

      Nonius, Catalans are not Spaniards no matter how many times Madrid says they are.

  6. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Moreover, Catalonia is more independent from Spain than Scotland from UK, being not a country. Catalonia have their own tribunals, taxes, education laws (imposing catalonian language, that nobody speak in the world, detriment of Spanish, inventing the history too, telling to children that Spain occupied Catalonia since 300 years !!)….and not, Catalonia is not the most rich part in Spain.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Nono Martínez Pascual

      The Scottish have a separate and different education system to England, Wales and NI.

      The Scottish have a separate legal system to England, Wales and NI – look up the phrase “case unproven” for an exemplary difference.

      The Scottish have their own language and too broadcast in same on both TV and radio.

      I wish Catalonia and Basque good luck on their respective separatist quests BUT I fear Spain will NOT allow a plebiscite for either.

    • avatar

      When Francisco Franco was ruling Spain, it was legal and fair to kill political opposition to the Régimen.

      Does it mean it was morally right to do so?
      Same for Spanish pretending their laws against Catalonia are right

  7. avatar
    Alkis Karydis

    A no win with a narrow margin after blackmailing the Scottish people that disaster will come, that big corporations will leave Scotland, after all these dirty means…

  8. avatar
    Ieva Kalnina

    I hope national borders will play lesser and lesser role in future’s Europe. There should be strong regions and strong European level government. Role of cities should be strengthened as well. Europe is a network of networks, national level is actually the weakest link of them all.

    • avatar

      There should be no European government.

  9. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Prez . The point is teaching catalonian leguage its ok, but with the time, each year, spanish language has been relegated to less teaching time. Catalonian people denounced that, and they have right the tribunal says, but Catalonian goverment still ignore that and still teaching more catalonian language than Spanish. Actually, in Barcelona is not allow to put the name of your bussiness in Spanish (that is against to the law!!). Is a dictatorship!

  10. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Prez, you have no idea by the way reading things you wrote. So answer me please:

    Why you want to create a boundary in the middle of our country?
    Why you go against european philosophy of UNION?

    If you dont want to be part of Spain that have same history and language, How is possible to fit in the Europe of XXI century with so different cultures?

    If you do not respect the law (Spanish constitution is yours too and was massively voting by Catalonia too) How International community can trust in you?

    Catalonia never existed as a country, is not a country and it doesnt matter what you think becouse Scotland is a country, Catalonia is not, so why you feel like that? Are you manipulated?

    Madrid and Basque Country are the most rich parts in Spain. If Catalonia want go alone without under consent of other Spaniards : Would you back spanish money we put in your region? Catalonia have a debt with the central gobernment eh

    • avatar

      The Francoist mentality seems to be well alive in Spain.

      Kurdistan has never been an independent country either, and that too is a huge mistake. Borders will always change throughout history and always will. It makes no sense to declare that a few lines drawn on a map should be perpetually valid, this goes against human nature.

      My Catalan colleague told me all about the petty oppression from Madrid and its neo-Francoist government. And he always proudly declares that as a Catalan, he is not a Spaniard.

  11. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Prez Another thing Carlos, your citizenship depends of you country. If you want to imagine that you are a horse, you dont convert into a horse, you still being human right? You definition of ‘Country’ is fake. In Spain there is only one citizenship (Spanish) and thanks to that we are European that is an extension of the rights of spanish people like you or me.

    So yes, We are spanish my friend, your citizenship is Spanish because your country is Spain, everything you get in the past was inside of Spain, so catalonia is NOT a country like you are not a horse.

  12. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Democracy says that every Spaniard must to vote, but catalonia goverment dont want! Its a dictatorship. Our lwas are very clear: Spain (Catalonia inside) decide our own future. Not only a small part decide for other without asking!!

    • avatar

      Read UN’s people self determination rights, and learn about real democracy.

  13. avatar
    Jaume Roqueta

    any body that could vote, would vote to leave spain!… spain is still a country where fascists and catholics have won all batles so its destruction would be nice not only for catalans but for all humanity!… if you let Madrid to vote, they would probably vote to be independent of spain even beeing the capital

    • avatar

      What? Who? How?

  14. avatar
    Javier Navarro Royo

    Carlos Wojciech, just one clarification, Catalonia never was “occupied by the KINGDOM of CASTILLA, in a SUCCESION WAR” in 1714. The most part of the territories and cities in the ancient CROWN OF ARAGON (Kindong of Aragon, Kingdon of Valencia, Kindong of Majorca and, even, Catalonia) sided with a faction that struggled for the succession to the Spanish throne, but the “Aragonian” candidate lost the Succession War. So, in this way, all Crown of Aragon (Kindong of Aragon, Kingdon of Valencia, Kindong of Majorca and, even, Catalonia) lost, also, their Laws. A new model, more “french”, of centralistic governance emerged for all territories of Spain.

    • avatar

      You can say it the way you want.
      We, catalans lost succesion war in 1714 and we as Valencians, Majorcans are still paying Castilla’s a tax for it through a huge fiscal deficit.
      Freedom for Catalonia

  15. avatar
    EU reform- proactive

    In Catalonia’s instant, history reminds us that with the marriage of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile in 1469 the foundation for a unified Crown of Spain was laid. But it was also the begin of the conflict between the Catalans & the Castilians when Bourbon king, Philip V of Spain was the first to abolish the ancient privileges of all of Spain’s medieval kingdoms, including those of the Principality of Catalonia.

    On the other hand, modernity & the European spring showed that in 2012 between 600,000, later in 2013 a human chain of 1.6 million out of a ~7.6 mio populace (~10-20%) were in support of an upgrade from an autonomous to a total independent Catalonia. An impressive big number, justifying such demand by any modern measure!

    However, there are still many obstacles to overcome: from Spain’s likely disapproval of such referendum, winning it- all the way to obtain a fully recognized statehood. It combines the need of the UN General Assembly’s two-thirds majority approval as a new UN member, political acceptance by Spain plus the big world powers and the compliance to international laws. Thereafter, the pleasure can begin of being self-sufficient & successful in the long term. Good luck anyway!

    • avatar

      Your sense of ‘liberty and real democracy’ is against UN human rights (people self determination)

  16. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Hahha in which planet do you live? And you want to join europe? If you dont understand others spanish people like u, how can you understand to Lithuania? And Greece? Whats about Bulgary?. Spain is multicultural, and Catalonia is an example.

  17. avatar
    Yannick Cornet

    Assuming a yes for Scotland would have surely created a European precedent and paved the way for all aspiring secessionists, the opposite is probably true too. Nobody likes to lead the way, its easier to copy. But its also bound to happen, and so Europe should get ready. I’m all for a flat management structure of small and numerous bio-regions under a EU framework, for the simple reason that the challenge of environmental sustainability requires both localism and more direct connection to global common goals. But that may not be what some secessionists have in mind..

    • avatar
      Joan Viñas Puig

      Did you say bio-regions? Nice excuse! This idea has been promoted since time ago by many Catalan leaders and thinkers, but so far the large states, specially the jacobinist ones like yours (?) are reluctant to release powers to the regions and to European parliament as well… So this is why we want our own state. We’re neither more nor less than you. And you’re are not our bosses to say that we cannot organize our country like you do. No doubt Catalonia will be soon free. Never before any European people had demonstrated so large, so long, so peacefully as we have lately done.

  18. avatar
    Pau Jiménez Inglés

    Nono, your reasons demonstrate you dont understand anything about Catalonia’s situation, btw, I wont answer them(some are fool, others half a true). Where is the democracy when you dont let people to vote? Even voting no? Then, do you think that only with law and constitution Catalonia will remain spanish? Think about it.

  19. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Pau, the law says that Catalonia can vote…with all Spanish people, so its possible. Why we are against this consulting? Because is not fair the only people can vote is catalonian people. Where is the democracy if you dont want to let Spanish people to vote? Even is our right because is in our constitution. My opinion is according with the constitution. Yours is against, is unfair and undemocratic

    • avatar

      No, it is just a human right.

  20. avatar
    Pau Jiménez Inglés

    I didnt say anything about not letting spanish people to vote… you are assuming that. Anyway, I could agree with all voting about Catalonia’s independence, but counting catalans votes a part to know their opinion a part. But, it wont happen, Spanish government is against votations.

  21. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Spanish goverment is against because is against to spanish law, unfair and undemocratic. Make sense. 2millions of independentis peopla CAN NOT DECIDE for 47 millions of Spaniards.

    • avatar
      Joan Viñas Puig

      So you are meaning that a wife can only get divorce when husband has approved? Where do you live man? Where did you learn about democracy? Please go back to the top and read the first message. It is my pleasure to receive advises on democracy from a Swiss… from a Spanish I better receive a recette on Gazpacho!

    • avatar

      So what?
      Freedom for Catalonia

  22. avatar
    Se Bas Tian

    Laws are done by humans so everything can be possible. Please respect each other

  23. avatar
    Hugo Dias

    In the present time the Independency in Europe is some kind of step back. The only future that rises for Europe is the Union, and the merge of all countries in one like the US made 200 years ago. Only having one strong country will provide future for Europe.

    • avatar
      Bert van Santen

      That `s exactly what the politicians want, therefor they created the coin and step by step squeeze the countries together. Not caring what the population want. Therefor turns up only 38%-40% of the European voters.
      In the EC era we had significant growth and welfare,in the EU era we have hugh unemployment and social trouble. United States of Europe? No thanks
      EC 2.0? Yes please

  24. avatar
    Juliana Mateos

    Scottish independence has nothing to do with the whole catalan s**t!!! Time to read more about it and stop comparing!

  25. avatar
    Dirvy Trece

    De incultos esta lleno catalua con la estelada a sus espaldas, de que fueron un pais, jajaja me rio es sus caras, solo fueron reino de aragon y siempre seran Espaoles por mucho que les duelan a la minoria, si quieren decidir, deben votar toda Espaa y no solo ellos…

    • avatar

      Tenemos los catalanes un idioma distinto a tu español, tenemos la bandera más antigua de Europa, y si somos una minoría dentro de tu estado…
      Por eso y muchas otras razones queremos irnos.

  26. avatar
    Nuria Prat

    The fact of denying the vote to somebody in a supposed “democracy” is why the catalans want to vote.

  27. avatar
    Miguel Angel Matilla

    Every body speak about history…..ok we talk about history….Asturias is Spain….and the others ….only lands won agains the arabs…..without us…..Every spanish…..and most part of french wrote from right to left…..and dress funny hats.
    US people said: remember “El Alamo”…..I said: don’t forgot Covadonga…..we are the nest of the modern Spain….and we don’t claim special laws……look to the future…..together we are stronger…..Europe union is the future…..
    Look others examples… 1970 Montreal have one million people and was the economic capital of Canada… 70s…..the Quebequois start with his independence claim……after 4 decades of claims and somes democratic and loses votations……Montreal have much less people….and loose his economic power again Toronto…why we can not learn from the history.

  28. avatar
    Jose Otero Jurado

    Aqu habemos muchos no a la independencia Catalua es Espaa y se queda en Espaa el que no se sienta espaol que se marche a una isla

    • avatar

      Fantástico argumento, en otras palabras, el que no piense como tu que se autoexilie… interesante, pero no me vale

  29. avatar
    Salvador Molné

    so the independent laws of Catalonia were substituted by foreigner laws….. Catalonia was not sharing any institution with other territories even from Arag Crown before 1714…

  30. avatar
    Salvador Molné

    History also shows than the Baltic Republics are doing much better being independent of URSS

  31. avatar
    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Pérez

    Nono, when you learn English peace contact me, we’ve had our own laws, the official language of the Kingdom of Aragon was Catalan and the political capital was Barcelona, we do not relegate anyone , in fact we have the best marks of Spain in Spanish language. But keep hating.

  32. avatar
    Josep Gimeno

    Spaniards, stop crying. You can’t stop the inevitable. Keep on appealing to law and Constitution and reality will change your schemes through facts. Good luck.

  33. avatar
    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Pérez

    Francisco: Chantaje? Trying to stay in Spain and changing it is “chantaje”? We’ve been trying to do that since the Bourbons taked over the power in Spain.

    Hugo: We are maybe the most Europeanist territory of Spain. We have our own language,culture,institutions and we have been discriminated and insulted for centuries. We PRECISELY want to be OURSELVES in the EU and in the WORLD, it is so difficult to understand? Why Scotland is legit or not, the constitution? The UK has not even one. And the constitution of the USSR permitted independence of the republics and it was a dictatorship till Gorbachov but as it interested you it was ok. Hypocrites.

  34. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    I will speak spanish to Carlos because It looks he doesnt understand: Un pas es un sitio que tiene ciudadanos, se basa en la ciudadania. En Escocia estn los escoceses. En Espaa slo existe la ciudadania espaola, no la catalana, por tanto, como no hay ciudadanos catalanes de pleno derecho, no existe Catalua como pas. Punto.

  35. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Aunque si te basas en la historia en el idioma propio y en la historia, Catalua es parte de un pas que es el Reino de Espaa y antes del Reino de Aragn. Ves? Mismo idioma, el castellano y misma historia. Que tenis adems otra lengua? Muy bien.

    • avatar

      tenemos ganas de dejar de tener que escuchar a negacionistas de nuestro pueblo como tu.
      Existimos y eso a los nacionalistas españoles como tu os molesta.

  36. avatar
    Endika Montejo

    Nono, why should Spanish people take part on the decision of a part which want the independence of their territory? That really makes no sense. Both Catalunya and Basque Country have a OWN culture, language, history, … and should really have the chance to choose their future

  37. avatar
    Oibaf Saijem

    Haha really, I’m reading such funny statements.. Like.. Catalonia didn’t share any institutions before 1714… What about…hmmm let me think…. The king? The most powerful institution in the modern peninsula… About the rest of institutions.. Yeah… Apart from the king every historical kingdom maintained its courts and laws only until the succession (not secession) war… What happened? (Another funny statement is being answered here) Catalonia and the rest of the crown of Aragon backed the Habsburg branch coming from Austria (so their leader was not even Catalan, not only backed by Catalan speaking people) other parts of Spain backed the bourbons … So when the bourbons won they stablished a France-like centralist state dissolving the regional courts and they did punish all territories that had being in the opposition… But not only Catalonians…

    Storing history apart.. You should never forget that you are one of the most self governing regions in Europe… You have courts parliament a lot of powers in many matters, courts, foreign representatives, own civil law and so on…

    Let me clarify as well one important thing… If you want to become a democratic state for sure you cannot ban the use of Castilian Spanish, either you like it or not.. It’s the language of a big fraction of your population, too. Nowadays Spanish is one of Catalonias languages and you cannot change that unless you repress that part of your population the same way Franco did to you…you don’t want that, do you? Or would you allow them to make another referendum? Would you also allow another referendum for Vall d’aran?

    And yet, the official language of the kingdom of Aragon was never Catalan, first of all because the kingdom of Aragon is not the same than the crown of Aragon so today’s Catalonia was never part of the kingdom but the crown, even though in some parts of Aragon Catalan is also spoken, back on those days there was no such concept as official language and if there was a language which was majoritarian in the court it was surely aragonese rather than Catalan… What are you guys really taught at school? For gods sake…

    • avatar

      In a free Catalonia Vall d’Aran would be free to vote for their Independence from Catalonia. On the other hand, if Vall d’Aran and Catalonia stay in Spain will be forced by spanish laws to stay in Spain (as PP party says ‘forever and ever’)

  38. avatar
    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Pérez

    Dirvy, Your blatant hate against the catalans and making an attention-***** style use of the letter , just because it is so typical of Spain makes no favour to the defense of your position. Scotland is a country because it has an own language,culture, and certain differential traits, not because you or the UK want it to be. Juliana: catalan “shit” no more comments.

  39. avatar
    Nono Martínez Pascual

    Because these lands are spanish as our constitution said (that basque country and catalonia too approved). Our constitution said the Spain is for Spaniards, catalonian and basque inclusive. So if you want to change something you must ask to everybody. Spain put a lot of money in Catalonia which is not the most rich part in Spain for example, if they get independence without asking everyone, they are stole the money of the others.

    Apart of this, the history of Basque country and Catalonia is the history of Spain and everyone speak same language: SPANISH (is tru that they have another language, but everyone can speak Spanish)

  40. avatar
    Endika Montejo

    Nono then I guess in your opinion if Chechnya wants the independence they should all Russians vote for it. I am wrong? About that of the history of Basque Country and Catalonia is the history of Spain…. don’t know what they taught you at school…. Basque for example has slavic roots and is one of the most antique languages of the world, but if you prefer to keep thinking we have a even similar history keep lying to your head

  41. avatar

    We realise this is a difficult topic, and people have strongly-held beliefs. However, please keep the debates focused on the arguments themselves, rather than commenting on your fellow debaters personally. And Please respect the Code of Conduct!!

    • avatar

      Perhaps you should delete posts that are just plain disrespectful and offensive.

  42. avatar
    Carlos Bergaz

    .Scottish vote has weakened a lot pro-independence supporters in Catalonia. It proved that they are far fewer than they seemed. We could all see many more Scottish flags and Yes pictures than pro-union images on the social networks. People who support diversity in unity are more rational, less emotional and more silent. But that doesn’t mean they are fewer.

  43. avatar
    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Pérez

    I jo ara et parlar en catal , es un idioma llat i segur que l’entens. Ciutadania escocesa? Igual que en Catalunya EMPADRONAMENT, no se d’on et treus que el concepte de ciutadania escocesa es diferent que el de ciutadania catalana. Al Regne Unit tenen la ciutadania BRITNICA. No hi ha ciutadans catalans de ple dret? I llavors tots els empadronats a Catalunya que son? Doncs perqu no fem els ciutadans catalans ciutadans de ple dret d’Espanya?

  44. avatar
    Jordi Pacheco.i.Canals

    a) Blood does’nt matter. The important thing is the peoples feelings and their attaching; b) Spain is not a multiculturalistic reality. There is only one language, which is official at federal and EU level and that everybody have the legal DUTY to learn and then some linguistic rights in some territories.

  45. avatar
    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Pérez

    Oibaf, yes, the king, and stop counting, we were just in a dynastic union. Yeah. No one talks about secession war, specially because it affected the whole continent. No, of course not, Basques were punished too. We want to control ALL our matters. ALL OF THEM. Ban the use of Castilian language? 85% of Catalonians speak catalan, regardless their mother language. And among them its me. The people from Smate, and 65 % of the Spanish-speaking population supports independence. The Fraction that you say is that one which lives here since 50 years ago and doesn’t even know a word of Catalan and complain about everything here, the language, the people,Catalonia itself. We don’t ban Spanish language, it is the SECOND OFFICIAL LANGUAGE and it is COMPULSORY to know it as it is COMPULSORY to know Catalan. The instruction (education) is only in Catalan and we have the BEST marks of Spain in Spanish Language. In Spain the terms crown and kingdom are used in the same way regarding that topic, but yes, Crown is more adequate. In the court? Yes. But which was the language of the government? Catalan. Which was the maritime language? Catalan. Which language was used for dealing with foreigners? CATALAN. I know there was no “officiality” concept. I am paralelizing? In school? The same that we discuss now here.

  46. avatar
    Jorge De María Tapia-Ruano

    Que cantidad de barbaridades de uno y otro lado. Catalua forma parte de la Corona de Aragn desde el S-XII. Por tanto no se puede asimilar a Escocia, que siempre lo fue hasta 1707. En Aragn jams se habl cataln salvo en Catalua, Baleares y Valencia. La Guerra de Sucesin no fu una guerra contra los Catalanes, sino una guerra para suceder a Carlos II El Hechizado. Hubo partidarios de los Austrias, que habran mantenido los fueros de Catalua, Valencia… Y otros partidarios del Borbn, que elimin tales derecho cuando gan. Y la Batalla de Almansa fu parte de esa Guerra, y punto. Por otra parte, yo si que creo que deben votar. Y as todo ms claro. Pero tengo la certeza plena de que triunfar el “seny” y ganar el NO.

  47. avatar
    Carlos Wojciech Manrique Pérez

    The independence supporters are that always. It has weaken no one. It is a democratic process and a historic one by the fact of taking place in the west. Jordi, the EU discriminates it because Spain discriminates it.

  48. avatar
    Jordi Pacheco.i.Canals

    And finally, the catalonian scholar system achieve equal knowledge in Catalan and Spanish as outcome. Almost everybody can speak (and understand, of course) both languages and there is no linguistic segregation (kids meet other kids with different linguistic background). So mixed conversations (one speaker in Catalan and other in Spanish) are common not only between kids in informal situations also between adults. That’s linguistic freedom and social cohesion in a multicultural society.

  49. avatar

    alejanerely think that the nacionalist movement in Catalonia is a business thanks to which a bunch of politicians are enriching themselves. My family is from Basque region and it never existed speech of freedom since the nacionalim came up. Now it is happening the same in Catalonia. As soon as you say that you want to be part of Spain you are labeled as a fascist. Is notabout voting or not, but about some other damaged rights which appear in those regions for the people who are living there and feel like Spaniards. Lets them vote when they give up with the propaganda and tell the real story of Catalonias region.

    • avatar

      I want Independence of Catalonia, and fully agree with you.
      The fact that you agree on letting us vote is a sign that you are not fascist but a democrat.

  50. avatar
    Pau Jiménez Inglés

    Nono, better if you read a little bit more about language and culture. Catalan appeared first than Spanish, it’s demonstrated by writings… so dont lie. Catalans had its own language, catalan, then we adopted Spanish as well. And also study more about economy, spanish principal consultant of spanish administration recognized the other day that Spain would have to pay 16000M ? if Catalonia have the same rights as Basque Country.

  51. avatar
    Filipe Chichorro de Carvalho

    If it were for the spanish, Portugal would also belong to them, probably. I’m happy that all the iberian countries won’t have to vote whether we be part of spain or not :)

    Now seriously, portugal and spain are separate and have been doing well together, why wouldn’t spain and catalonia? If their people want to be separate and if there’s a strong support from cultural and historical backgrounds, why not? I think the Iberian peninsula would benefit from it. And the EU would obviously accept catalonia as a member state.

    • avatar

      And how many people speak Letzeburgo? Or Slovenian? Even less!

      Stop oppressing Catalunya, stop the occupation!

    • avatar

      Was your grandfather’s name Francisco, by any chance?

  52. avatar

    There is no time for this kind of movements in Europe. We are better off together.

    • avatar

      Who is this we you are talking about and why do you oppose democracy?

    • avatar

      It is referring to everyone in Europe. And I am not opposing democracy. You are just posting “clever things” without any rational explanation. Just trying to be “clever” and “catchy”. Democracy is one thing and demagoguery and the rule of the mob another.

  53. avatar

    The Scottish referendum was premature and the result was the expected one. Its almost a miracle they got to 45% or so in the face of such scaremongering propaganda.

    “You’ll lose 300% of your pension if you vote yes”
    “500 million jobs will leave Scotland if you vote yes”
    “The seas will rise a mile and flood Scotland if you vote yes”

    OK that is exaggerating the propaganda a bit but you get the idea.

    It was however encouraging to see that young people were more for it than the old ones. Just like in the French and Dutch referendums of 2005. Back then, the young, and here in Netherlands it was 3-1, to not ratify the EU constitution.

    Of course, the undemocratic EU hates elections, referendums and ordinary people (they consider themselves elevated above is which is why they declared themselves income-tax-exempt). So immediately the threats and bullying started and enough treasonous politicians were bribed to vote through the Lisbon Treaty which was exactly the same thing.

    I sure hope that Catalunya throws off the Francoist government system in Madrid. As one of my colleagues tells me all the time, Catalunya no es Espana.

    • avatar

      So the no campaign in Scotland was scaremongering, bullying and propaganda, Marcel, but the yes campaign was not. You know what? The referendum was conducted according the law of the UK, people decided and the majority decided. Now either you are going to accept the results of a perfectly legitimate referendum conducted within a democratic environment or you are just going to use freedom of speech, a product of democracy, to dispute and disrespect the results of a democratic process that reflect the opinion of the majority. If you don’t like it, go and live elsewhere. The people of Scotland have decided and they don’t need you to patronise them or tell them they don’t know what you are doing.

    • avatar

      Even “what they are doing”.

  54. avatar

    Letting Spaniards vote on Catalan issues in 2014 is like letting Germans vote in 1933 on Jewish issues. It should simply not be allowed.

    That is why only Catalans, members of the Catalan nation (mind you, nation doesn’t mean the same as country) should be allowed to vote.

    Do we let Turks, Syrians or “Iraqis” (whatever that made-up nationality is supposed to be) vote on Kurdish independence? Of course not!

    Juan Carlos e Francisco Franco amigos para siempre. Down with monarchy and long live a future Catalan republic!

    • avatar

      In the Kingdom of Aragón they spoke many other languages. Not only catalan. Catalonia, Valencia and Baleares had this language, but not Aragón as well as Sicily, Naples and Montpellier,were they use to speak the mother-language of catala, the Occitan language….. So, please, don´t misinform the people.

    • avatar

      Je ne crois pas !!! Tout d´abord il faudra voir s´il va y avoir ce referendum…..

  55. avatar

    please, don’t try to say something wrong to the people that don’t know the truth, Spain don’t like Catalonia, they only want Catalonia because it’s giving a big amount of money to them, STOP Spain, you never listened to Catalonia, and always you have it for a small amount of stupid people.
    I’m tired, our president, and the government is rotten, people stealing money and doing nothing for our country, i feel ashmed for being spanish, i would like to be all joined, but i can understand catalonia, trust me, u never will know the amount of hate that spanish people have to catalonia, and this stupid government are going to spend all the possible money to break the catalonia people to be independent, legal or illegaly.

    regards to all the people and don’t trust some people like Nono Martínez Pascual… as i said a long amount of people, maybe the 80% for say something of spanish people are against catalonia.

  56. avatar
    Frank Green

    I think Turkey, Europe and the whole world must realise the very grave danger to world peace with this separatist epidemic spreading round the world,which will lead to local civil wars and then regional and world war. This phenomenon is so dangerous, on a par with international terrorism and is related to nationalism with xenophobic/ racist undertones and could eventually morph into fascism and genocide.The UN should insist any current separatist demands must be negotiated under a federalist solution to avoid the very real danger of an outbreak of war. Basically, this is a world problem and this fragmentation of nations will eventually spiral out of control causing chaos and death.

    • avatar
      EU reform- proactive

      @Frank Green- Hi,

      Why should such reasonable request (“separatist epidemic”) be a grave danger to the world? A denial- by any means- would fit your description better!

      The principle expressed by you deserves to be tested & debated on a broader scale, namely: “the right to self determination/rule” of special & unique entities!

      Definable groups, who historically had either an unsettled past, never formed part of one homogeneous nation or partitioned off due to varying reasons – should be given space, their will allowed- if it does fulfill a certain minimum criteria- by way of a democratic referendum.

  57. avatar

    I am quite disappointed with the misinformation most of the people in these debate find themselves in. And also I have to admit, quite embarrassed about the English level of many postings.

    The language spoken in the crown of Aragon was the one we today call Catalan (or Valentian or Balearic, they are different dialects of the same language). Second of all, the main matter is that people in Catalunya are denied of their right to decide for their future, in this case, wether they want or not to continue in Spain (no matter which reasons may everyone have to vote, their right to do so should be legitimate). By not allowing them to vote, they are denying the NO as well. It’s antidemocratic, and really deplorable that a European State in the XXI century does not let their people vote. I thought Franco died in ’75 and from then on we live in a Universal suffrage era.

  58. avatar

    Of course, let them vote. People have the right to decide their own destiny, but at the same time people have to face the consequences of their choice.

    I have been reading about History and that is good, but don’t forget that people evolve and that the circumstances are not the same now, than in the early XVIII century. In that time there were not real rights for common people, not real freedom, nothing even similar to what we call now “democracy”.

    In my opinion Nationalism (any Nationalism) is an ancient and dangerous idea. Nationalism always requires an opponent (an enemy) and this fact always lead to the same consequence; a confrontation (a war). Who are the losers in a war?, the kings?, the generals?, the politicians? You know the answer, we are the losers, we, the common people. By the way, I can not understand a nationalist left-wing political party, it is something that makes no sense…

    I live in Madrid, I am a “castillian” but, what is the real meaning of this? In my opinion these are only “labels” My “reality” is that I am a human being, the same than you, who are reading this, right now.

    A border is a line on a map, a flag is a colored rag. I am living in a land called “Spain”, but that land does not belong to me, nor the air, neither the water, that land belongs to everybody. Believe me, that piece of land called “Catalonia” does not belong to you, nor the air, neither the water, because that land belongs to everybody. People is the important thing, without labels.

    Some of you who are fighting so hard for the independence of Catalonia, say that you expect be a part of the European Union in a next future. Well, be careful, in a next future maybe there won’t be a European Union to what you can join. Think about it.

    • avatar

      These “independence” movements/ideologies are not compatible with the values and the aims of the EU. How can people be a part of a bigger Union when they don’t even want to be a part of a smaller one? They should be vetoed if the try to join the EU.

  59. avatar
    Àngel Homedes

    When EU will be enterelly implicated with the problem in Catalonia. We want to vote and Spain doesn’t understand it or doesn’t want to understand it…

  60. avatar
    Joan Viñas Puig

    Dear Yvetta, you urgently need a course on the EU aims and values. Do you know any state member who is part of EU against his people majority will? This would be against one of major values of EU: D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y. Then, why a nation with an old national and cultural heritage like Catalonia should accept to live inside a larger state… if Catalan people majority wanted to build his own state? Please don’t tell people what they have to do, but let people realize their own choices, specially if they are based on peace, respect, democracy, freedom… and hard work, which is the case in Catalonia.

    • avatar

      Joan, EU membership is subject to national parliament ratification and not popular vote. I am not sure that I understand exactly what you mean in your post but this page here is for debates and people are encouraged to express their opinions, which I have done. If you cannot deal with opinions that contradict yours, this website is not for you. Spanish law has been decided and voted by parliament following democratic processes. It is not something that changes according to individual needs but is meant to stay the same, especially when it is needed. It is down to the courts in Spain to interpret the law, as agreed by the Spanish people an in place all this time, and decide whether there is basis for this referendum to go ahead or not. It is not down to you or me or the mob.

    • avatar
      Joan Viñas Puig

      Yvetta, of course I respect your opinions. In your post your main post was “These “independence” movements/ideologies are not compatible with the values and the aims of the EU”. Alright, I respect it. But I don’t agree with it, I’m convinced this idea is not objective, is not true. I tried to explain you why I’m sure this idea is fake. Maybe I was not good enough in explaining this. Let me try again. We have a parliament in Catalonia, right? This parliament has been elected according to Spanish laws. A sufficient majority of this parliament (89 out of 135 MEP) have voted to consult the people of Catalonia on staying in Spain or negotiating independence. it is only a consultation, right? Then, here comes the key question: why consulting the people would be against the values of EU? Why the idea of independence, if supported by a people’s majority, would be against the values of EU? Do you realise that in all european states people wants to stay independent? Then why frenchs and germans yes, and catalans not, if this is what they want? This is not a real hurdle for more union in EU. The real hurdle, by now, are politicians and technocrats. They want to keep power in their capitals.

  61. avatar

    Joan Catalonia never was a country. The ‘old national and cultural heritage’ is shared with Spain. Same country : Spain. Same laguage: Spanish. It doesnt matter if you can speak another regional laguage. Nobody in the world speak that. Only 2 million people (being very optimistic for independence) want to be independent. Catalonia have 8 million people so, they are not majority. And the law is very clear. Spain decide (catalonia inside). Why is not posible to vote if you are catalan and live in madrid or other parts in spain? Why can vote if you live outside of Spain? Why can vote people that are not Spanish (not catalan) like africans or from another countries? IS NOT LEGAL and IS NOT FAIR. You will not allowed to vote and avery of 48 millions of spanish people we will be very happy that they. Dont invent the history. What Catalonia get is because is INSIDE of Spain. Catalonia never was independent and is not a Country.

    • avatar
      Joan Viñas Puig

      Dear Nonius, what Catalonia was in the past (by the way, having been started as a community centuries before than Spain was created) would be very long to discuss. I’m not sure if everybody here is interested in it. But what Catalonia wants to be is very important. And the voice of Catalans must be heard about it. If this voice was neglected… democracy would fail again in Europe… although we’re used to this. We have not been listened during 300 years and we still have not been assimilated in Spain. On the contrary, 70% of Catalan actual population comes from Spain (first or second generation). And a majority of this people wants to vote on independence. You cannot neglect it. About who can vote in the consultation (it is not a referendum, it is just a consultation) please get some information before criticising. The criteria has not been set by Catalans but has been done according to Spanish law. About who is using the Catalan language, again please get some information: 7-11 million users, 10th largest contribution to Wikipedia, first linguistic/cultural domain approved in internet (.cat). To end: all your post, your energies are devoted to denigrate Catalonia. Don’t waste your time. Others like Franco tried it as well with more violence and the results is there: we stay Catalans. I learned it from my grandmother who, do you now? came to work to Catalonia from Andalucia. She felt integrated to Catalonia and became Catalan. We’re one of the countries where people who wants to become integrated can do it more easily. Have you ever tried? You’ll be the welcome.

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