Anti-migration and anti-EU parties made strong gains in the European Parliament elections last week. Although mainstream centre-right and centre-left parties topped the polls in most countries, there were “political earthquakes” in France, the UK and Denmark, with the anti-migrant Front National, UK Independence Party and Danish People’s Party each coming first in their respective countries with over 25% of the vote.
Martin Schulz, the European Parliament President and centre-left candidate for the next President of the European Commission, described the result as “a bad day for the European Union,” while Marine Le Pen, the leader of the French National Front, claimed the vote showed her country demanded politics “of the French, for the French, with the French.”
It’s a nice line, but what does it mean in practice? Is it time for governments to take a tougher line on migration within the European Union, even if it means putting up restrictions to the “freedom of movement” enshrined in the EU treaties? Would that be enough to reassure voters that their concerns are being taken seriously? Or would that undermine everything that European integration stands for?
Last year, when we debated the issue of so-called “welfare tourism” in the EU, we looked at a report published by the Commission suggesting that the vast majority of migrants moving from one EU country to another pay more into welfare systems than they take out. In response, we had a comment sent in from Paul who said that he heard this loud and clear, but he didn’t care:
There is NO acceptable level [of welfare tourism in the UK]. Even one person who comes to our country with no intention of contributing to society is one too many. That one person is depriving someone who works and pays their way of what they are entitled to.
Nobody should be allowed to enter the UK without proof that they are able to support themselves, and as a lifelong UK taxpayer I’m perfectly entitled to say that.
We recently spoke to László Andor, the EU Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs & Inclusion. Mr Andor is currently taking the British government to the European Court of Justice because of complaints from EU nationals who live in the UK and have been denied welfare payments, including child benefits and jobseeker’s allowance. They argue they are being asked to submit to additional checks to support their welfare claims that UK nationals pass automatically, something Mr Andor says contravenes EU rules on non-discrimination.
We asked him to respond to Paul’s comment:
We also had a comment sent in from Paola who argued that migration was more a political than an economic issue, and governments have no choice but to be seen by voters to be tough on migration during an economic downturn:
Can Mr Andor understand this position, and perhaps even sympathise with it?
Do governments have no choice but to be tougher on EU migration? Would that be enough to reassure voters that their concerns are being taken seriously? Or would that undermine everything that European integration stands for? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.
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Quality migration is needed indeed, not what we see now…
@Karel Van Isacker
Well said! (Yet again)
What about those lazy locals that don’t want to work? It’s well known that many companies are struggling to find workers for factories, newspaper distributors cleaning, agricultural etc. jobs despite high unemployment rate in the country. Locals in welfare countries simply don’t want to work, because it’s easier to get benefits. And low paid migrant workers actually make products more affordable and competitive in international markets. So it’s a stick with two ends.
Dream on. What makes you think that you can be “picky” ? By “Quality migration” you mean high qualified, already schooled and trained in native countries, healthy and motivated individuals without children to work unbearable amount of hours for pennies, do you ?
@Anne Mikkelsen
A large proportion of the ‘lazy locals’ you mentioned [a tad insulting methinks] are being coerced into jobs every day.
As regards ‘quality immigration’ – the UK should be allowed to chose jobseekers from anywhere in the world not be limited to a paltry EU population encompassing 7% [and declining] of the world’ population.
@Ironworker
By letting people from Africa or Asia or anywhere but continental Europe work in the UK on say strict 5 year visas, the UK could help cut economic-immigration into the UK, the UK could deal with its demographic time-bomb and when the immigrants go back to their ex-EU country their hard-earned wealth could be used to create businesses in their home country, again helping reduce immigration into the UK.
Simples!
Sounds to me like Karel Van Isacker wants his cake and eat it too.
Someone else pays for training and his country gets to benefit. Brain Drain much?
Migration out of EU in to the EU- yes; migration from EU state to another EU state- no! It”s funny to see outsiders of the EU shouting Allah Akbar in downtown London and the romanians and bulgarians to be the victims of the migration politics.
no to migration
im.from the uk.and you would say that because you want a free ride.there is nothing in the uk any more because we are over run with you people.britain is sinking.stay in your own country
Wait you want migrants from outside the EU but not those from WITHIN the EU?
@Brett: stop reading Daily Mail, it melts your brain.
What is EU? A rock band?
don’t be racist
It has nothing at all to do with race. But, everything to do with finance and cultural practices.
@Malcolm Seychell
Intra-EU migration control (NOT stopping EU-migration) is NOT racist.
Shame on YOU for pulling the RACE CARD when it does NOT apply!
@Catherine Benning
I have to agree with you on this particular point.
PS: You are NOT always wrong, your just a tad EXTREME [regarding RACISM & HOMOPHOBIA] sometimes.
Migration remains an unchallengeable force of development and needs equitable attention from all parties. Frontiers were created by man as opposed but we still share thesame air , sun, moon and the stars.
Who knew so many European were racist?
Your ignorance of the scope of RACISM [particularly] in continental Europe is mind-boggling!
Yeah, close borders! With the aging of European population we’ll see who will be paying our social securities if we still have some at that time as well as our governments. This is the mirror of many EU countries right now, letting go the highly educated people instead of investing in them.
The World has gone completely mad! Or it has never stopped.
Only from outside of Europe where EU citizens would have no opportunity of reciprocal or equivalent lifestyle or benefits, should they want to move to those countries. The European people must have the right to free movement throughout each of the states. However, that has to be accompanied by the same access to benefits equal to the standard of the UK or other country with equal welfare benefits as those received in states who offer it. Otherwise it is ridiculous to consider poorer nations will not move to those that will offer much higher standards of living.
To do otherwise is unfair and unworkable for the people of those well cared for welfare states that pay heavily for them. Also, there has to be the equivalent health care and education to make it not only possible but desirable for those in wealthier states to move around equally. No spongers on those who have worked hard and long for their present civilisation and standards.
To go along with this, you have to expect and make sure, all citizens who plan to set up home in another state are not only fully aware of the accepted laws and cultural expectations of the place they hope to go, but, insist they abide by those laws and cultural expectations or move back to their place of origin at their own cost.
From cellular cuillar camps.
The EU should abandon Richard Kalergi’s genocidal plan http://www.theeuroprobe.org/2013-044-couden/ before the people of Europe will eliminate the EU.
@Astral Energy
There is NO such thing as a white human race or a black human race or a yellow human race – there is only ONE human race.
The existence of this [albeit disturbing] movement has very little bearing on the inevitable, COLOUR is not the issue, CULTURE is.
For example, I don’t want my country to pool its democracy with the likes of some of the basket case countries in continental Europe. Why? Because said countries tend to be corrupt, tend to have poor legal systems, tend to have poor police forces and tend to support political parties that are too extreme for my liking.
Frankly, I don’t want to be culturally contaminated by such ne’er do well countries.
No, but we need to handle it together!
Maybe if the EU ends the wars its involved in across the Middle East, there wouldnt be a immigration problem, wars create millions of refugess, its a not brainer end the wars problem solved.
I agree !
It’s mainly us and Nato that r in the wars Eu direct is not.
Most definately, an uncontrolled influx of legal and illegal immigrants is madness, it feeds the black market and causes a strain on social services.
We need controlled migration . It was never a problem before the EU got involved , we travelled the world ,worked where we where needed and it all worked well for both the economic migrant and the society that needed them . When we see mass uncontrolled migrations from countries that have lower wage levels the indigenous peoples suffer especially the youth who see jobs at entry level taken up by the migrants. The free movement of peoples across Europe may have worked if restricted to level economies of the west . As soon as the EU moved east and south the game was up .
The result is what we have seen in the elections , a rise of Nationalist parties . The EU must take this as a warning that any further integration or expansion will lead to more Nationalists which in turn will lead to Facists and Nazism .
I really do hope the people in charge are paying attention
Never a problem? Ever hear of Enoch Powell?
Right, time to build taller border walls and barbed wire fences, eventually dig trenches and fill them with spikes, land-mines and traps, why not arming concern kippers vigilantes and reinstate the outlawed dog hunting (foxes and gypos)”tradition” ?
What the heck is “a tougher approach to migration?” Explain “tough” in first place and then “tougher” if you don’t mind.
“Is it time for governments to take a tougher line on migration within the European Union, even if it means putting up restrictions to the “freedom of movement” enshrined in the EU treaties? ”
People really should stop distorting the truth “freedom of movement” was never enshrined in EU treaties, the defining treaty, theTreaty of Rome, required Free movement of workers, i.e people moving with a job. This has been diluted down by much later treaties to allow anyone and everyone free movement…….. but that little fact seems to be ignored by the euro-fanatics
@Paul X
Well said!
Tough question and no easy answer. Provided that the immigrants can bring some benefit in terms of work or the arts, then sure, no problem. If, on the other hand they come here seeking handouts, then the numbecrs should be minimized until we’ve fixed our own back yard.
http://www.helpcatalonia.cat/2014/05/selfie-for-solidarity-with.html
I think that the problem is not the immigrants (or even the illegal ones, as many would say)… These people come from countries that in their entirety suffer from any kind of inequalities, poverty or even civil wars. You can’t focus only on the immigrants and not focus on the reasons they became such. But if you want to do the latter, one has to stop for example selling guns to the people responsible for the wars in the first place. But because selling guns is a very profitable business for the countries of Western Europe and the States, I don’t think anyone is willing to do that. In any case, immigration is a very complex phenomenon and I don’t think it will be resolved very soon, because political parties and officials only target those who suffer and not the real roots of the problem…
Yes there is real issues about why immigrants want top come. As it happens the UK is the second highest spending country on international aid behind the US.
We give out billions to the impoverished countries so have a good case for not feeling obliged to let them come here, pay to help improve their home country as well as pay those who choose to leave it? that really is rubbing our faces in it
Maybe if the other European countries started paying more in international aid they would have some justification to complain about immigrants, but until they do they have no grounds for doing so
the problem is actually not the migration phenomenon per si, but instead the main problem related to it, which the easy access of those migrants to social security schemes! So, the problem is european-wide and is mainly related to this, the abusive usage of these schemes! So it would be important for the new European Parliament, to take action on this issue, and re-design for example more eficient rules, to prevent this tyoe of behaviour! This is the main issue, that is repeteadly appointed by various member states, like UK or France for example! Oh and is also, neede, a commomn european wide border control, to prevent situations like the ones happening in southern europe, where daily migrants try to get inside Europe, treough Portugal, spain or italy! ;)
@Pedro Redondeiro
Migration is a big issue BUT DEMOCRACY is too.
The EU is undemocratic.
Furthermore, why should stable, democratic Northern EU net contributors pool their democracy with some EU nations that are to all intents and purposes ‘basket-cases’?
@Salvador Gota
Many people have a respect for Barcelona/Catalunya and the discrimination it faced during the rule of fascist Spanish dictator Franco – even extending to Barcelona FC being forced to sell their best players to the GOVERNMENT TEAM – Real Madrid*.
I personally think that your campaign would fare better if you highlighted the flawed history of RM and indeed its current irregular fiscal arrangements – although the latter might tar FCB slightly too.
* Indeed the first 5 times RM won the equivalent of the Champions League, RM were immorally IMHO propped up by the Spanish government who saw RM as a weapon of cultural imperialism. Such government backing exists today and is currently being investigated by the EU after much delay from Joaquín Almunia.
I started following this page as I found the initiative quite interesting, but all the questions are biased and with a clear purpose. One follower less
To be honest, I couldn’t believe that kippers are that naive. It will take 2 maybe 3 cases of whacked beggars and the whole story will turn around. Dooh !
Either they work honestly or they get out, we build our country, they should build their own.
Either local employees pay honest salaries to migrant workers or they close.
EU should definitelly do something about immigration from 3rd countries. If this symptom persist only between member states it will be profitable for everyone.
Every step towards national interests is a step away from global peace and unity.
Since it doesn’t seem like we’ve grown out of conflicts, in the long run we either watch tens of millions of people die again, sacrifice our freedom by giving up or become one people, leaving no room for large-scale conflicts, but sacrificing our culture. However painful the latter might sound, it’s still the least of a sacrifice.
It’s sad to see the widely remarked European tolerance values are being undermined by the ignorance and fear of the populations, namely the ones of the richest countries (check out the EE14 results and you’ll accomplish that none of the PIGS, excluding Greece, chose extremist parties’ MEPs, particularly when comparing to the the french outcomes).
Yet, we live in a democracy and if the EU wants to narrow its democratic deficit, it must start to make concessions to the populations demands, in order to survive. Otherwise, in a few years, there’s no EU even to discuss of.
If we cannot be serious about integration, close the borders. Today, come walk the streets and the parks where immigrants camp out in open toilets in the center of Milan, the World Expo is on, ahead of time.
That’s why we need an Eu wide roule that sets the minimum limit of social welfare so it’s not necessary to migrate to get it. But in general is the newer generation to mutch selfishness and to little generously and also so by the politicians.
Well lets just take the asylum seekers in France for starters, as I am led to believe by the rules of the EU,are they not supposed to claim asylum in the first country they reach,if so why are they all waiting to get to the UK.furthermore if I go abroad I get no benefits, the e111 means ave private health insurance don’t think anyone who has not put their fair share in should have free access,we obviously have to look after our own nationals, as for immigrants paying into the welfare do the maths if you only spend a short time on benefits it would still take you years to pay it back, 40 hours on minimum wage,you pay £20 in tax but get that back in working tax credit, if they have kids back in their country of origin and are getting child benefit for those kids just what are they paying into our wefare system, nothing that’s what I don’t see why i should be made to contribute for children that do not reside here, after all they would not do the same for me if I were an immigrant in those countries, it’s not balanced,
Stay in your own country ,help to build or rebuild it ,stop overpopulating other countries ,and stop expecting everyone else to help,if you are truly hard working and industrious do it in your homeland,if you are a scrounger then scrounge in your own country ,help your fellow nationals, simples !
I guess the right candidate that qualifies for a temporary, unwanted by locals job is in his/her’s 20’s with a master and a doctoral degree, highly skilled, schooled and trained by his/her’s country of origin, healthy and over motivated, without children or any other dependents, working unbearable hours for pennies (washing cars for instance), double taxed, over polite, humble and quiet, deeply thankful for the “opportunity”of breathing moist air in such a “great country”.
Well, if the candidate isn’t all those things, we don’t want him.
@Marcel:At least you’re honest.
How many of your own countrymen would be able to fit that mold though?
I wager not many. And there’s the problem.
A good start would be that all proponents of mass immigration should be forced to house 10 randomly assigned mass immigrants into their house. Most of the advocates of mass immigration seem to be whites living in upper class white neighbourhoods where they know the migrants are unlikely to settle. Now if we implemented my plan they may not be so keen anymore.
Because their plan is to let mass immigration happen and dump them all in the poorer neighbourhoods and then act all insulted and offended as in ‘how dare you oppose immigration, you poor cretin’. It would certainly wipe the smug sense of superiority of many of these upper class lefties.
We also need politicians to stop kissing the USA’s butt. To hell with them, drop the dollar and let the Americans deal with their own mess, maybe it’ll keep them out of other people’s business for a decade or two.
Why on earth do we need dollars anyway? I’m sure oil countries would accept alternatives.
I agree the politicians should have the guts to say no to usa from time to time
No, it is not time for a tougher approach to migration but for tougher measures against the abuse of the right to free movement. If there is concern about benefits tourism, then a simple 5 year qualifying period for benefits could be introduced for new migrants. Otherwise, it is wrong to perceive especially the newest EU citizens as outright criminals and humiliate and degrade them simply because of their nationality, even if they are doing nothing wrong. There should be more co-operation between the old and new member states in order to successfully deal with any criminal elements arising from the right to free movement, but taking that right away is definitely the wrong approach. Why punish migrants who contribute to the economy and are law-abiding, exemplary citizens? Such are the majority of European migrants.
The rightwingish “politicians” from all over Europe will run out of steam as soon as some beggars or immigrant corpses with swastikas carved on their bellies or foreheads will be recovered from God knows what european capital river bottom. Is just a matter of time until their rhetoric is being replaced by physical violence. Until then there is no option other than watch them produce what they always do, hate. Democracy has it’s flaws, I have to recon. Same principle applies to leftwighish marxist factions. Is needed a backpack filled with Cee Four (like in the ol’ good ’70’s) in a Sunday morning in a busy urban area and that’s it. From historical perspective it’s unbelievable what short memory some alleged civilised nations prove to have. Not going extremist it’s harder to achieve than I thought.
All that is needed is some jihadi shooting up people in Belgium, and it maybe happening a few times.
Or a few ‘honor’ killings, or death threats to cartoonists, or demands we accept Middle Eastern inequality of women, or demands all food in all super market be certified by ‘halal expert’.
And then the blame will be put where it rightfully belongs: mass immigration promoted by EU. If enough of these things happen, people might actually do something about it and not be bothered by a few lefties shouting ‘racism’ when we say that islamic oppression of women is wrong.
Reading through this thread we once again appear to be barking up the wrong tree on seeing the immigration difficulty as one European state against another, Or, to be clear, from the poor European states into the ‘so called’ richer ones, so that poor Europeans can raise their standard of living to that of the better off.
Why is that, when all the statistics show, without doubt, that the crossing of borders by Europeans from one state to another is not the fundamental cause of mass immigration in Europe? In the UK this mass immigration comes from outside of Europe. 80% of all immigrants, yes, 80%, originate from countries not part of Europe. And the influx of these peoples is changing the cultural and economic structure of our states to the point of collapse.
Ask this question before you condemn other Europeans from using their right to free movement within our borders. How many of the poorer EU countries find they are invaded by millions of people from outside our European borders in order to get free housing, free health care, ample financial benefits for themselves and their children, as well as bringing in their entire extended family of aged and sick people with them once they settle under the laws of the EU? The poorer countries are simply used as a stepping stone for the worlds deprived to access the countries where the systems are set up for a better standard of living than they have in their country of origin. Anyone care to reflect on the figures and pass a link to these statistics? Yet, here we are turning on ourselves, looking inward and fighting against each other rather than looking honestly at the full picture of the advantage to all of us, should we want to settle in a state other than the one ‘we’ were born in. So, why is Farage and all the other anti united Europe parties dwelling on the movement of peoples between states? Why do you think that is? What is their beef with the people of Europe?
In the UK 80%, yes, 80% of the people, and that is 80% of 230 thousand, that enter the UK every year are from outside of Europe. Yet, Farage will never mention those people and his reasoning, he tells us, is, because government can legally stop those people entering our country but being part of the EU makes it impossible to reject those moving from inside it.
Now lets look at that in the round. The UK, says Farage, can turn away those from outside of Europe as and when they want to. The millions coming in from the world, which counts for 80% of all our immigration, can be stopped should we want to. Yet, have our governments in any European state stopped that from happening so far? Has the UK stopped it today so that those ‘Europeans’ who we have a duty toward and who want to settle within the UK from other parts of Europe can have the opportunity to do so? No, we have not, and Farage is not calling for them to do so. Now why is that? What is he afraid of? Because he certainly isn’t afraid to tell the Europeans they are not wanted is he? He can insult them but not those from other shores. The ones who are truly disturbing the equilibrium of our infrastructure and culture. The overbearing financial cost due to the extreme differences of expectation by those individuals.
Why have European leaders not addressed this situation so that the heat of mass immigration is addressed from the overwhelming source of entry into our shores? Are European starving and poor less worthy than those from outside? Are they culturally less attractive than those from outside? Are they harder to educate, house, and assimilate than that 80% from the rest of the world? I don’t think so.
So the truth is, Farage and our present governments want to subject our collective European people to a worse fate than they do the majority of immigrants who come to feed themselves on our hard work from outside our borders. And that is where it needs to be stopped first and immediately. Long before we remove the right to free movement within our own states. Because that is where the millions immigrate from, not from inside our borders at all.
http://www.meforum.org/2107/europe-shifting-immigration-dynamic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Europe
Again, I question why Farage, etc., are not being asked to elaborate on their use of poor Europeans as the scapegoats in this issue?
Because it’s easy to scapegoat the poor, didn’t you know?
It always has been. The poor, the “rroma”, or some other THEM group.
UK is a horribly racist country if Farage even got votes AT ALL especially after that LBC interview where he made it clear he considers eastern Europe to be a “problem”.
He, and his voters, have the mentality of 19th century slave owners or colonial masters.
The comment about “quality and quantity” is especially xenophobic as it basically renders eastern Europeans as ‘sub-human” or something in his warped mind.
All i want now is for UK to leave the EU and go join America or some other racist state. Sadly it seems this cancer has infected even much more ‘saner’ countries like France.
If free movement inside Europe goes out and we get this ‘two speed” Europe, then the EU is dead already. The south-east will more and more hate the north-west, hardly a recipe for cooperation.
@Crayven
Your country is INSTITUTIONALLY and CULTURALLY RACIST towards its Roma.
Your country applies a VIRTUAL-APARTHEID system against its own Roma!.
Until your country treats its own Roma with respect and NOT like SUB0HUMANS the UK should NOT allow your country-folk entry to the UK.
PS: I do not scapegoat the poor, I chastise the corrupt and the morally bankrupt whose values I deplore , like on occasion yours.
PPS: STOP incorrectly pulling the RACE-CARD. The UK applies “quality and quantity” restrictions on Asians, Africans and indeed the rest of the non-EU world – many of whom are better educated and more civilized than many minions from your neck of the woods. If the UK can apply it to the rest of the world, IT should in the interests of equality apply it to the EU.
As Ironworker already said:
“How can you even iamgine that a country will train, educate, clothe and feed and train and care for a person until it’s 20s or 30s and then YOU get the benefits from that in your country ( while paying nothing ) AND pay him pennies”.
This is “quality and quantity” immigration , or more accurately described as BRAIN DRAIN !
Keep on dreaming, no country will EVER accept this !
So now we hear the UK applies quality and quantity restriction to Asians, Africans and the rest of the world. Now that is a very racist remark to make about Europeans, when the fact is, 80% of the entrants into the UK come from outside of Europe. And the majority of those people are neither better educated, or, more civilised or skilled or have any better work ethic, than those from within our own borders. Quite the contrary, if statistics can be used.
The UK and the rest of Europe have an immediate duty toward its own citizens, the people of Europe, above and before any from outside its borders. And I would say the Roma are not treated quite as ‘subhuman’ as those from countries mentioned like Africa and Asia, who have to submit to caste separation, FGM, honour killing and slave status in their own land. Additionally, if it is felt the Roma are being treated thus in their places of origin, it’s up to the European leaders to control the abuse within its borders in order to stop this. Not scapegoat the people by preferring to import and employ those from other parts of the world, who should be looking after their own populations, not rely on their citizens finding their way to Europe to have them send their pay cheques home, in order for leaders to fiddle it.
And for you, Crayven, where do you see the racism in the UK? Racism is rejection on the grounds of a peoples race, not where they come from. Roma are not rejected on the grounds of their race, but, on the content of their character and their behaviour which is found unacceptable to the countries they wish to reside. The answer has to be to stop being antisocial and learn how to behave in a civilised manner. Teaching small children to steal and beg to keep the family going, is not educating them to the standard of the rest of the population and piling a mountain of filth in their fellow mans back yard is also not the way to go about endearing oneself to the community.
Here is proof Britain is not racist. Had we been racist, millions who have come to our country from outside of Europe, would not be a majority of the population in many areas of the UK as they are. Here we let other races speak for themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47UDT5Bm9Jc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOr71VC9VWQ
Tarquin Farquhar, you do not know anything about Eastern Europe or its people, so better learn first before expressing an ignorant opinion about such complex issues. There is not even a shred of truth in any of your claims, particularly about the “higher” education status of immigrants from non-EU countries, or the “quality and quantity restrictions” applied to Asians and Africans. For example, 75% of women from Pakistan and Bangladesh who live in UK do not work but just stay at home, create baby after baby and sponge off benefits from the taxes of the hard working people, including European migrants. Hundreds of thousands non-EU immigrants cannot even speak English, so every brochure and information has to be specially translated for them (mostly to Hindi, Gujarati, Urdu and Somali, not Romanian or Bulgarian), thus wasting money that could be used for better purposes. I do not dare to think about the education status of those huge masses of people, but certainly it is not high, whereas the idea of the “quality and quantity restrictions” that have purportedly been applied to them seems lame. You yourself are talking in a disgusting, humiliating and degrading way about Eastern Europeans and yet accusing them of racism. You are full of self-contradiction, vile and hatred out of nothing – just like Nigel Farage. If such people start governing Europe and separate its citizens into classes, then that would mean going back to the 19th century colonial values and essentially taking Western countries out of the civilised, modern world. If the dark past is the purpose, then, unfortunately, no bright future will come out of that. Also, you really need to learn to be a bit more respectful, especially when you are talking about people you don’t know!
@Maia Alexandrova
I know that NO Eastern-European nation is in the Transparency-International Top 20.
The rest of your post was stereotypical RACIST bilge. Where are you from again?
Tarquin Farquhar, who is pulling the race card now? I am using the same language as do UKIP supporters about Bulgarians and Romanians. So now it is racist, when it refers to 75% of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women in UK (statistical facts), but it is not racist when words like “spongers” and “thieves” are used to describe ALL Bulgarian and Romanian migrants (without any statistical proof). That’s what I call double standards and hypocrisy.
Simply knowing what position a country is in a Top 20 chart of Transparency International does not by any means give you enough knowledge about the life of its people or the complexity of its society. The majority of countries in the world are not in the top 20. Do you know even one person from Eastern Europe, apart from probably the Roma who are a completely different ethnicity and race (originating from India, with their own language, culture and way of life) and cannot represent the remaining 95% of the population of the countries they reside in? I don’t think so. But may be you have come across someone from Poland. That country has also been attacked due to the high number of migrants coming from there. I don’t understand what the big fuss is about. They work and are perfectly integrated into society, learning English fast and so are their children. They don’t cause troubles and are respectful to the host cultures. What is the problem then? If UK leaves EU and closes its borders to Europeans, then I am afraid in 20 years there might not be Great Britain any more, but Great Pakistan instead. Then Nigel Farage and his supporters might wake up to the lost cultural identity of their country, but it will be too late and there won’t be any Europeans to blame any more.
@Crayven
YOU are sooooo stereotypical – you lack restraint, rigour and rectitude!
Whatever deluded points you were trying to make were destroyed by your errant, erroneous, equivocal, excitable and excretions.
“Restraint”?
I have exercised “restraint” by simply listening to your racist garbage day and day out on this forum. All you do is rant how “uncivilized” and “backwards” Eastern Europe is.
Well excuuuuuuse me ! We’re not the ones with 3 racist parties!
Yes, by all means divert attention from the fact that you HAVE NO arguments.
Goddamn trolls…
@Catherine Bennings: Shall i quote Farage for you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pyYoL9ngtE
Enjoy listening. Then comeback and tell me where in eastern Europe you hear people “having a problem with britons living next door”.
I rest my case.
@Crayven
Some cultures have great food cultures [NOT the UK] and others have great “common-law” cultures [NOT Romania] – your eagerness to CENSOR facts that are NOT to your liking only reinforces the negative stereotype associated with a small but [wildly] vocal set of EU basket-case nations.
You need to understand that If I believe that say Nigeria, China and Romania are in the main countries I do NOT consider meritorious then YOU will have to live with it – END OF.
I want control of UK borders so that only the BEST from say Nigeria, China and Romania can enter the UK. Even the likes of YOU would be welcome IF you met any apposite criteria and of course IF you are prepared to live in a multicultural society that accepts what it is warts and all. You will also HAVE to get along with BLACK people, ORIENTAL people and WHITE people. (YOU might have a problem with the last 2 stipulations methinks.)
You need to understand that I can legitimately call Romania a backwards or uncivilized or corrupt country because of the following impartial and objective data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICT_Development_Index
As regards individual Romanians I come across, I treat them with the respect I afford people of ALL colours, races or creeds – something you do NOT want to do given your hatred of BLACK, ORIENTAL and any other NON-EU citizens who want to migrate to the UK.
YOU may NOT like the above facts, deal with it, get used to it, get over it.
@Crayven
Some cultures have great food cultures [NOT the UK] and others have great “common-law” cultures [NOT Romania] – your eagerness to CENSOR facts that are NOT to your liking only reinforces the negative stereotype associated with a small but [wildly] vocal set of EU basket-case nations.
You need to understand that If I believe that say Nigeria, China and Romania are in the main countries I do NOT consider meritorious then YOU will have to live with it – END OF.
I want control of UK borders so that only the BEST from say Nigeria, China and Romania can enter the UK. Even the likes of YOU would be welcome IF you met any apposite criteria and of course IF you are prepared to live in a multicultural society that accepts what it is warts and all.
You will also HAVE to get along with BLACK people, ORIENTAL people and WHITE people. (YOU might have a problem with the first 2 stipulations methinks.)
You need to understand that I can legitimately call Romania a backwards or uncivilized or corrupt country because of the following impartial and objective data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICT_Development_Index
As regards individual Romanians I come across, I treat them with the respect I afford people of ALL colours, races or creeds – something you do NOT want to do given your hatred of BLACK, ORIENTAL and any other NON-EU citizens who want to migrate to the UK.
YOU may NOT like the above facts, deal with it, get used to it, get over it.
At the end of the day, EU immigration policy is RACIST towards AFRICANS and ORIENTALS period!
Respect nations. A major contributing factor to the peace in Europe has been the creation of mono-ethnical states after the Second World War by the Allies. The E.U. is by far not the only reason for peace in Europe. Infact it is becoming quite an empire now, without any possibility for a democratic foundation ( since so many diverse peoples can only have so little influence, and democratic choices are for the larger part based on cultural values ). Its every growing lust for power will be its downfall. Besides, can anyone name a succesful multi-cultural democratic empire?
@Theharmonicaman
Agreed.
That’s why Hungary wants to rip apart countries sorrounding it to create “greater Hungary” ?
That’s why Spain has problems, UK has problems with Scotland, etc ?
So much for your “peace because of mono-ethnical states”.
Mono-ethnical states isolate populations and breeds xenophobia.
@ Crayven,
Dear Crayven,
I am afraid that your argument is invalid, because the states you have named are not nation-states. Greater Hungary has never been a nation state. It was part of the Austria-Hungary dual monarchy, wich collapsed due to inner ethnic termoil and ( liberal ) nationalism. Spain is no nation state either. In history Spain it self hardly existed, but was a collection of states united under the Habsburger crown ( such as Catalonia, Aragon and for some time Portugal ). The UK has simply never been a nation state, nor was it ever meant to be. Besides the national parlements within the UK ( of Norten Ireland, the Ilse of Mann, of Scotland and of Wales ) have become more important over time. The UK is in a sense decentralizing for some time now. Why, because the peoples of Britian feel more and more Scotish, or Irish.
In history there are quite a few examples of multi ethic Empires declining into inner termoil because of nationalistic feelings, such as Austria-Hungary and Russia. After the Second World War the Allies decided to give all peoples of Europe the right for self-determenation. This has been a great factor for peace in Europe untill this day. My sources are John Mckay’s A history of western society and Azar Gat’s Nations ( and a few history classes ).
Greetings Theharmonicaman
@ Crayven
Dear Crayven,
Id like to add a note on why mono-cultural states are important for lasting peace. The only place in Europe wich was not ethnicly rearranged into nation states was the Balkans. It is most likely that this consequently let to the third Balkans war. The only war in Europe came from inner ethic termoil. Again we might see the same happening in the Ukraine.
Greetings, Theharmonicaman
@Chatherine:
“And for you, Crayven, where do you see the racism in the UK? Racism is rejection on the grounds of a peoples race, not where they come from. Roma are not rejected on the grounds of their race, but, on the content of their character and their behaviour which is found unacceptable to the countries they wish to reside. The answer has to be to stop being antisocial and learn how to behave in a civilised manner. Teaching small children to steal and beg to keep the family going, is not educating them to the standard of the rest of the population and piling a mountain of filth in their fellow mans back yard is also not the way to go about endearing oneself to the community. ”
No. No, dear, racism can be rejection on many bases.
Ethnic racism – this is about romanians and bulgarians.
Religious racism – against muslims
Skin color racism – shall i tell you where the term “paki” comes from and WHO uses it !? Yeah i don’t think that is necessary.
The videos you linked are the classic: “oh but i have black friends” excuse.
They prove nothing, i can find hundreds if not THOUSANDS of same videos proving the opposite. Stop linking to them, they mean nothing.
All i am talking about is the OFFICIAL POSITION of the UK.
And right now with UKIP on their high-horse the position seems to be:
“If you are not white, christian, have superb education , are willing to work for nothing and are preferably briton up to 10 generations, then you can kindly, please bugger off. We don’t want you!”
And that’s not how the EU works.
( Hence my position to kick your country out ASAP before this xenophobic cancer overtakes the whole of Europe )
Crayven, seriously, you must learn the full meaning of English words before you wander off into the indoctrination of political correctness.
Racism – definition:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism
There is no such thing as ‘religious racism.’ There is rejection of religion or doctrine but that has nothing to do with the race of the follower. Example, many races follow the ‘doctrine’ of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or Judaism, and so on. The rejection of these people is based on their belief, not on their race. And to reject on those grounds is illegal in the UK. However, people do have the right of freedom of association. Meaning you are legally allowed to select those you wish to associate with. And to choose to associate with those of your own belief or doctrine is not illegal and should not be so. Which is why the criminalising of Christians in the UK for rejecting homosexual men sleeping in their home was indeed a gross injustice. The elderly couple who went through years of this terror ended up so desperately ill they almost or did die as a result of it. The man having had heart bypass surgery as the strain was far too much for him. He could not bear being forced to associate with individuals who went against his beliefs in his own home. And this law, we are told, was forced on our citizens by the EU. another reason for the popular vote leaning toward UKIP.
Now, not only do I have black friends, I also have black members of my family. Don’t bother to gasp in disbelief, it’s a common mistake people make when passing remarks about white people of the UK. So, I can assure you my intention was not to pretend the UK government has black friends and that they are therefore not racist. UK government policy is identical to that of the EU on race, gender, age, disability and so on. That video I put up was to show you the British are not all white people. In fact a huge number of them are definitely not. London, Birmingham, Bradford, as well as other cities are, in fact, ethnic in majority, or to clarify are non white.
And your position on our UK high horse being that if you are not white, Christian, educated and indigenous, you have all rights and privilege is the very reverse to what you suggest. The majority of British people who are white, Christian, educated or otherwise, feel they are being discriminated against by their government in favour of others, hence UKIP. The beef being, that those who come to our country as immigrants are put first by government in all matters social, above and before those who formed our country into the wonderful welfare state it is. The new comers are given priority whilst the indigenous are discarded. And they feel that as a result of that government policy they are being forced into poverty, ill health and rejection. And when our government want to get out of their culpability they blame it on EU law. They infer that as a result of being part of the EU they have no choice but to abuse the indigenous citizens, as the laws they make force it on them. The French and many of the other states population are feeling the same way. So we are not alone, are we? Must be something it it.
I hope this clarifies the situation for you.
@Crayven – APPARATCHIK
You seem very willing to:
LIE,
CENSOR,
WARP REALITY,
REDEFINE WORDS and
ENFORCE EXTREME/RADICAL COMMUNIST RHETORIC.
No wonder UKIP [pro-migration control of WHITE, BLACKS and ORIENTALS] won the UK vote at the last EU GE – you do you and your cause great harm by your wild, aggressive, irrational, illogical, inconsiderate convulsive, explosive expositions of a scatalogical nature.
PS: Even Catherine Benning recognises you as a tad ‘eccentric’ shall we say.
@Crayven
I’m glad you agree with Theharmonicaman that the EU is an empire.
For once, WELL SAID!
Well, there may have to be restrictions on migrations from places outside the European Union, while the possibilities of migrating inside the union ought to be maintained.
Yet it does not seem to be obvious, that people migrating from other European countries should be able to obtain social welfare payments without having to meet some further obligations, that can and should be determined by national authorities.
One may of course question whether such obligations in some sense have to be “reasonable” from the point of view of the European Union, and this may raise a further question about whether centralized ruling is the best way of obtaining that.
The problem may be that centralized ruling leads to conformity and uniformity and thereby make it difficult for member states to formulate laws and obligations, that fits to their own national cultures and to their economic and political traditions.
I generally recommend that the union tries to develop a coordinative policy based on negotiations, that allow member states to follow their own courses.
Part of such negotiations may be to find ways of compensating citizens, that seem to be unduly hit by asymmetrical national practices, and to find ways of mutually reciprocating if a country chooses to unduly favour its own citizens.
These negotiations should be occurring more continuously, so that it will be possible for member states to gradually develop a practice, that seems to be fitting for them in a European context.
I think it would be good for the union to experiment with such a form of coordination instead of relying too much on centralized ruling, but that may have to involve some restrictions on the ability of the European Court of Justice to disregard national legal practices.
It may eventually be an idea to reconstruct the union around such a principle of negotiated coordination, which I have written about at debates named “Is the danger from far right parties being exaggerated?” (one post) and “Is the European Union too close to its U.S. ally?” (two posts).
Crayven:
Please note nothing the more than ‘tad eccentric’ pretense at being British, who not only cannot fully understand the language he writes in, may suggest to you, he has absolutely no authority or reason to pretend he can speak for me or interpret anything I may write.
And I demand the Debating Europe team remove this post suggesting to you he in some way does. He is a stalker and this organisation, DE, is giving him permission to pass his filth around. Infecting the entire forum with his audacious nonsense.
I would not connect myself in any way to such a piece of foul mouth scum. It would be the equivalent of pressing oneself against the dropping of a dog.
So, please, don’t feel I go along with any of the offensive words he uses against you. He is using my name to cover his arse.
@Maia Alexandrova
Eastern Europeans are NOT a RACE!
You are RACIST as you deliberately cited 2 NON-WHITE UK minorities to support your specious argument – why?
I don’t know here you found the phrase:
“spongers” and “thieves” are used to describe ALL Bulgarian and Romanian migrants
but it certainly did NOT come from me – STOP LYING!
BTW, compared to the UK, Bulgaria and Romania are in terms of wealth, technology and rates of corruption both INFERIOR to the UK. In a few decades, who knows, the positions could be reversed.
However, I and the majority of UK citizens take each and every EU foreigner I/we meet on face-value. [I am personally, particularly respectful of treating all EU foreigners that I meet as I find them as I am visibly of a different race (partially anyways) and I know what RACISM is about – its not your CULTURAL IMPERIALISM dressed up as FAUX RACISM BTW.] You would do well to remember that when you RACIALLY impune UK Pakistanis and UK Bangladeshis.
On the issue of hypocrisy you refer to a 75% stat [NOT sourced] and then berate the renowned and respected TI index – H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E.
@Maia Alexandrova
Eastern Europeans are NOT a RACE!
You are RACIST as you deliberately cited 2 NON-WHITE UK minorities to support your specious argument – why?
I don’t know where you found the phrase:
“spongers” and “thieves” are used to describe ALL Bulgarian and Romanian migrants
but it certainly did NOT come from me – STOP LYING!
BTW, compared to the UK, Bulgaria and Romania are in terms of wealth, technology and rates of corruption both INFERIOR to the UK.
In a few decades, who knows, the positions could be reversed.
However, I and the majority of UK citizens take each and every EU foreigner
I/we meet on face-value. [I am personally, particularly respectful of
treating all individual EU foreigners that I meet ‘as I find them’ as I am visibly of a different (partially anyways) race to the average EU citizen and I know what
RACISM is about – its not your CULTURAL IMPERIALISM dressed up as FAUX RACISM BTW.]
You would do well to remember that when you RACIALLY impune UK Pakistanis and UK Bangladeshis.
On the issue of hypocrisy you refer to a 75% stat [NOT sourced] and then
berate the renowned and respected TI index – H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E.
@Esofius
So your immigration policy is effectively a WHITES only policy eh. Disappointing…
@Maia Alexandrova
If 93% of the world lives outside the EU then even by the law of averages the talent pool (education etc) in the 93% of the world that doesn’t live in the EU will be superior to that in the EU – do you understand that logic?
Again you pick on Pakistanis with your GREATER PAKISTAN reference – please stop with the RACISM.
I’ve met plenty of Poles and Romanians personally and I’ve found them in the main to be reasonable.
However, in the interests of RACE EQUALITY and QUALITY per se I think it best that EU foreigners are migration controlled [in the context of the UK] JUST like Africans and Orientals and any other non-EU citizens are today. Its only fair, hey what?
PS: I have a great respect for Poles given their great history – WW2, John III Sobieski, Marie Curie etc. Indeed 1 of my friends is the grandson of one of the 200,000 Poles that stayed on in the UK [by virtue of Winston Churchill] post WW2. The Poles I have met whether at work, in a shop, in a hotel or as a tenant, have in the main been POSITIVE additions to the UK.
PPS: I actually don’t mind ANY citizen from any EU countries even the less-esteemed EU countries coming to the UK; BUT if certain groups are prone to higher levels of crime/corruption then they must be identified and chastised – HIDING such information [behind claims of FAUX RACISM] is NOT acceptable in the UK.
@Catherine Benning
In answer to the forum question ‘tougher approach to immigration’? Erm, perhaps a fairer approach to UK immigration – less EU continentals more RoW perhaps?
PS: Please kindly refrain from making sexualised comments about my buttocks, you merely demean this prestigious debating forum by your lurid, offensive and sexually demeaning comment.
PPS: Your first paragraph in your last post was grammatically WRONG – your poor command of English betrays you – yet again!
PPPS: If you continue with your sex pest comments then I will report your activities to DE.
Tarquin Farquhar wrote 4.6.2014: “So your immigration policy is effectively a WHITES only policy eh. Disappointing…”
Well, Tarquin.
There are many European citizens that are not white, and many non Europeans that are white.
Besides, I haven’t said, that nobody from outside the European Union should be allowed to settle here, although there will have to be some limitations.
To belong to the European civilization is a matter of culture – not a question about race.
It may be that cultural evolution to some extent can be parallel with evolution of racial characteristics like white coloured skin.
The evolution of skin colour, as I understand it, may have something to do with being able to produce vitamin D by using the energy from sunlight. Lack of pigmentation thus allows the body to better use solar energy under geographical circumstances, where sunlight is relatively rare.
And development of European culture must have been influenced by similar geographic conditions.
Change of skin colour may be possible through biotechnological manipulation, although that generally does not seem to be desirable
Change of cultural orientation can be accomplished through learning, although such learning may have to occur through several generations.
The European civilization can also acquire some new cultural traits by integrating people from other civilizations, and historically that has occurred through immigration of people from Middle Eastern, North African and Asian civilizations.
If too many people from other civilizational areas come to Europe within a short span of time, then European culture may become distorted, disunited and stagnant.
European societies may thereby also be split into disconnected groupings or sub societies, or there may be formed large lower class segments from immigrant people. This can lead to conflict and disorder.
Such developments may already be seen for instance in England and France.
It generally seems preferable to limit such immigration, so that learning and integration can keep pace with the intake of new cultural elements.
Immigration may then potentially support dynamic social and cultural tendencies in a progressive direction instead of generating chaos and anarchy.
Policies concerned with migration inside the European Union should also support learning and integration, but here integration relates to national European cultures and societies.
Migration may in this context depend on and contribute to further progression of national cultures and national economies and may also contribute to further interdependence between national economic cultures.
If such interdependence can be handled through a corresponding form of coordination, then it may eventually stimulate overall development as well as learning and integration on the European level.
The ability of the European Union to integrate people from other civilizational areas thus depends on its ability to coordinate national European developments.
The tendencies for such people to get stuck in camps in Italy and Greece however can perhaps be seen to indicate, that this does not work too well for the present.
These problems may at least partly be due to coordinative failure, and more centralization does not seem like a solution.
Coordination will generally be easier in connection with normal migration, that can be seen as ”intended” from the point of view of the union as well as the member states, whereas migration due to unexpected circumstances may require more compensatory devices to deal with asymmetric coordinative issues.
I think the EU is becoming the scapegoat of the UK. When in London the whole city feels like this is some pakistani colony, not a European state.
I think Scottish citizens are well advised to leave the UK and join the EU. Unlike the UK the EU is able to tackle its immigration policy.
@Andy
LOL!