The EU is never one to say ‘No’ to a good crisis. This week, Europe finds itself enmeshed in one of the most serious international crises since the fall of the Berlin wall. Over the weekend, a referendum held in the Crimean peninsular saw voters overwhelmingly choose to secede from Ukraine and join the Russian Federation. The Crimean Electoral Commission has declared that 96.7 per cent of voters chose to join Russia on a turnout of 83.1 percent (there was no option to retain the status quo on the ballot sheet – only the choice between greater autonomy or secession).
Crimea was Russian territory until 1954, when it was granted to Ukraine as a “symbolic gesture” of solidarity by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev (who grew up close to the border with Ukraine, married a Ukrainian, and wanted the gift of territory to cement relations between the two nations).
EU and US leaders have declared the referendum illegal (as has Ukraine’s government in Kiev), particularly as suspected Russian military units wearing uniforms lacking insignia have taken full control of the peninsular and the Russian army has been conducting military exercises on the border with Eastern Ukraine.
Last week, German Chancellor Angela Merkel threatened “massive” consequences for Russia if the referendum goes ahead. Now that statement will have to be tested, as EU foreign ministers start drawing up a list of possible sanctions.
But should the European Union really be threatening Russia with a “New Cold War”? The British Foreign Minister has warned that whether or not the Iron Curtain is dusted off and drawn closed again “will depend on the course of events over the coming days”.
We had a comment sent in from Panos, who argues that EU leaders should take a step back and calm down. He argues that it is perfectly legitimate for Crimea to decide to rejoin Russia:
Crimea is 70% Russian anyway. Even if things calm down, at some point Crimea will become part of Russia, [and] it would be best if they do it with a referendum, not with violence.
To get a reaction, we took this comment to Philippe Juvin, a French MEP who sits with the Centre-Right in the European Parliament. How would he respond?
I would respond by saying that, in many parts of Europe, there are debates concerning whether some part of Europe belongs to one country or another. For example, there are some people of German origin living in Poland, but this is not an excuse for Germany to ask Poland to give it part of its territory. And the fact that there are Flemish people living in Belgium is not a reason for Holland to ask Belgium to give it part of their territory.
Crimea is part of Ukraine. And, as you know, Russia itself has guaranteed the territorial integrity of Ukraine at the Budapest memorandum in 1994, and there is absolutely no reason for Russia to ask for the territory of Crimea to come back into Russian territory. So, the EU should refuse to recognise such a referendum. It’s absolutely necessary. Remember, just before the Second World War, Hitler asked for the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. And that was a reason for the Munich agreement that led, ultimately, to the war. We cannot accept modifications of territory as Russia wants, because if we accept this it’s an open door to a lot of new issues.
Should the EU recognise the results of the referendum in Crimea? Is it best that Crimea secede through a referendum instead of through violence? Or is Russia breaching its international agreements and bringing about a “New Cold War”? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.
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Yes. We know the EU doesn’t like referendums but it will have to accept this one whether it likes it or not.
153% of voters in Sebastopol (official organizer source) and 20% participation, for a yes-yes referendum ? Come on…
123% (correction) :)
over 100% voters = “very legit” refeendum.
And as the “international observers” we are concerned they are all, ALL of them, neo-nazis from Europe, anti-EU rabid ultra-nationalists and general Putin -apologist nutjobs.
It doesn’t matter if 500% voted for joining Russia or 100000%.
Once they entered into ANOTHER COUNTRY, Russia lost all legitimity in their actions in Crimea. Read the bloody international conventions that explain this.
Also referendums are held COUNTRYWIDE not in the region YOU want. And definitely NOT with the army in the streets…a FOREIGN INVADING army.
Well, since the EU was so ignorant to accept Kosovo’s independence, it needs to accept this referendum as well.
Absolutely correct!
as if making one mistake wasn’t bad enough… Your argument doesn’t make sense.
Seems eu is subjective to accept certain facts… For instance, the referendum in NL , RO, BG en others about EU membership. Crimeea is no surprise, but since the eu is mostly economic union, trade will prevail
what ‘referendum’? that was not a referendum.
Like
In democracy, you do not let people just vote, do you? check Spain for more info on how the proper mafia deals with democracy.
Karel Schwarzenberg, former Foreign Affairs Minister of the Czech Republic and keynote speaker at our event last Saturday in #Gmunden, Upper Austria, warned: ?#Europe and the world shall not allow #Russia’s open violation of contractual duty. The European Union brought a long period of peace to Europe, which could be ending soon if #Putin is not being stopped in time.”
Then Schwarzenberg is not a very smart person because a) the EU is not about peace and never has been and b) the EU/EEC is partially to blame for the escalation of the Yugoslavian civil war.
Plus, in this I am on Russia’s side because the EU is more undemocratic than Russia and the western world has ZERO moral authority… remember Kosovo? Or Iraq? Exactly!
Dear Karel,
Does the word “Kosovo” rings a bell?
The EU did not bring a ‘long period of peace to Europe’. Pick up a history book you fool.
Referendums are a tool of democracy, but in Crimea there is no democracy, there is caos! The people that voted was condizioned by the army!
Referendums are a tool of democracy, exactly. But in the Eu and Usa there is no democracy, there is just financial chaos. The people of the Eu countries are conditioned by the bankers!
Democracy at gun point? I think not! WE should mobilise ASAP!!!
I take it you volunteer for front line duty?
EU CAN’T RECOGNISE THE RESULTA OF THE REFERENDUM IN CRIMEA, AND SHOULD MAKE RUSSIA AWARE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT PRESENT AND INSTALL COLD WAR.
Referendum? Better said annexation. If nobody does nothing about it (well, nobody did anything for Moldova when they lost Transnistria) then again democratic values are just a way for us to lie to ourselves and continue to live in our little bubbles while Putin continues to do what he knows best: whatever he likes, irrespective of people’s wishes. In any case, I am fed up with people living in a democracy praising this so-called referendum. Is it so hard to understand that a referendum with two questions that ask the same thing and under the occupation of a foreign army cannot be free and democratic?
First of all you anyone can refuse to vote. Second, you can destroy the paper by writing across it, ‘I do not want to be in the Russian Federation or any part of it.’ Thirdly, you can post it empty. This was a the highest turn out any UK government would go down on its knees for 98%. At our last general election only 27% of the people voted. And even with that, no party was able to win a majority, hence we have a traitorous coalition without a mandate to govern.
So, your post is utter nonsense. The Crimeans want to remain a part of the Russian Federation and I wish them well for having the courage to do so.
The EU isn’t starting anything. I would strongly argue that Russia’s doing the starting in this matter!
So, when the US/EU/UK back a radical takeover of an elected eastern European government and acknowledge them as a lawful and rightful group to lead, you see that as a Russian act. Who do you think you are trying to persuade with such gobblers. Do you really see the European people as that gullible?
did you not hear the American, Victoria Nuland, tell her colleague they were choosing who would be the man for them, or, are you deaf. Did you not hear the unelected Cahterine Ashton, supposed EU front man, accept with ease the facts the Eastonian was telling her he observed. Or, are we supposed to lie down and take it the way they did when Hitler spoke?
Here is a reminder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4pJBxO1yB4
And the Ashton/Estonian deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG43Tboz78
And as a side bar, I feel the EU have fallen for Ashton’s shenanigans which she used to hoodwink others in her circle. This was an obvious set up. It would be good to know what the Estonian thinks about this subterfuge.
Wait a second, Viktor Yanukovich was elected in a internationally recognized election as free and fair, the protesters signed a deal by EU mediators for early elections in May and they broke it and stormed the presidential palace before the ink on the paper was dry, and Russia is the bad guy here? Or better yet, Ukrainians who don’t want to live under this type of a government are to blame? Please people. The propaganda is so thick I can’t believe you are not choking on it.
1) after elected (partly by having voters bused around to different cities to vote multiple times) Yanukovych started to take apart the Constitution giving himself near dictatorial powers; 2) the protesters didn’t sign the deal, some opposition leaders did, but Yanukovych never did; 3) in that deal the election was to be at the end of 2014, not May. The May election is what they have now thanks to the new gov’t.
Totally agree with you … If only people would learn their history, and see more than the 5 o,clock news…
Gregory – please pick-up a history book yourself and tell me when EU members had wars with one another.
Madan Ashton and Merkel are to blame for this, when you back supprot RADICAL NAZIS that 8 MILLION Russian soldiers died fighting against, Russia has every right to be offended and feel threatened .. US is pushing this, Mr Yarosh the Nazi leader in Kiev wants to blow up Oil/Gas pipelines from Russia to EU ?? Why ?? Because America does not want the EU/Russia becoming allies .. EU needs to grow a pair a BALLS and cut itself free from America .. EU/RUSSIA as aliies/partners is POWER !!! America is broke and bankrupt trying to spoil te party for the rest.
@ Alex Tselentis:
I go along with you, I think you have hit the nail on the head. However, I believe it is more than that.
The EU is seen as being dominated by Germans. And they are smarter than the rest as they are suspicious of the yanks and their agenda, and they are hesitant over the trade agreement, reluctant to follow the US as sheep to the slaughter with this. And, along with he fact that Washington despises Germany, always has since WWII, remember who runs Washington from top to bottom. You may want to look up Victoria Nuland on Wiki as well as John Kerry, the revelations of their background may surprise you.
So, I suspect this poking at the Russian bear is in order to bring down Germany and the German people. (Cut off their gas supply by sabotage and blame it on the Russians) They are too successful and after all, believe in a form of socialism. Therefore to the US they are Communists, for they allow pensions, welfare benefits and a decent standard of living for all. Not just for those at the top, as in the US. Only their form of politicians gets free health care and other enormous benefits paid for by the tax payer in the US, even though to be in one of their Houses you have to be in the millionaire class. Germans are not happy with food banks and the possible starvation for their people forced on us by the financial sector. Therefore they do not fit the austerity plan the IMF has for the world’s workers.
Under this way of thinking Germany or the EU must be ruled by the US completely, or, they must be made rid of. And this is how they plan to do it, from my point of view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland
Usa is trying to cut the ties between Eu and Russia. On the other hand if Crimea would be Ukranian , Germany could cut her ties from Russian energy, and build another pipeline from Crimea to Georgia to take energy from there, and isolate Russia. The reasons WHY Merkel plans to put Ukraine the Eu, and Usa plans to put Ukraine into Nato, are obvious…. it is an intervention into other counties interests, just to save the interests of eu and nato. Eu and usa sais the referendum is ilegal because it was against the Ukranian Constitution. HOW HYPOCRITICAL !!! The EU and Usa violate the Constitution of ex-Jugoslavia, Irak, Lybia, Afghanistan , killed thousands of inocent people just to preserve their own interests. and then they talk about “Constitutions”…We are living in the New Middle Ages, where the powerfull decide arbitrarily what is right or wrong ! Hey, people we in the West are not more “democratic” then the others when it comes to our interests…so we have to WATCH IN THE MIRROR first…
Food for thought:
Whereas you (and Russia) see “radical Nazis” at work in the Kiev uprising, the Russian secessionists of Krim have invited referendum observers from right wing parties in the EU which for their part are often called “Nazis” by their mainstream political opponents. And it is mainly the right wing EU parties wich see the secession of the Krim due to the vote of the people as letigimate, although not legal in the sense of the Ukrainian constituion and international law.
I just wanted to point you to the arbitrary way the term “Nazi” is used today in political contentions.
https://www.facebook.com/alex.tselentis.3#!/photo.php?fbid=10202240700592481&set=gm.220638584809409&type=1&theater
The EU lost Crimea but won Ukraine…
Crimea would have voted in favor of joining Russia with or without Russian military presence. It should accept the referendum results just like it pushed for recognizing Kosovo, Montenegro and South Sudan’s independence declarations.
What the EU should do now is take advantage of Ukraine’s move towards the EU, look for new gas and oil suppliers, invest in renewable energy and energy independence, and build a stronger future for itself if some day it wishes to begin a cold war with Russia.
Nonetheless, if the rights of Crimea’s minorities are threatened, then it should speak up…
dream on pal, easier said than done, when it comes for the EU to take decisions. As that US Congress woman said, F…. the EU, we sure did crack an egg, because they mishandled the issue, they let the US lead the EU into a mess. Ukraine is nothing more that an economic basket case while now the rift the EU with Russia grows wider, thanks to the USA!
We should be neutrals, if someone asks for help then help.
Europe should have had condemned the violences in the squares of Kiev and eventually take a concrete action at that time.
@Jovan: well, when you are fed Russian propaganda daily, I know it’s impossible to think straight. Also, if you were to vote in a referendum without the possibility to say NO, you’d be happy right?
Dear Daniel,
There were a number of times that people from EU countries have voted in referendum against EU policies, and the results were either ignored by E.U. or the referendum repeated until the results were favourable. Is this democracy?
?U has no idea of what democrasy really is….and the double standars that it has in its policies is mind numbing….i remember quite well Greek Prime Minster George Papandreou talking about bringing the memorantun that is killing Greece as we speak into a referentum and being overthrown the next day and a banker put in his place….yeah democracy EU style,is real democracy…oh and im not even gonna go to the supposed elections that we will have in 2 months…yeah we will vote,for what?a powerless european parliament that basically is there just to say yes or no on decisions alrd made behind closed by unelected bueracrats….
@Alex: In the parallel universe where the Albanian army occupied Kosovo and then a referendum was hold, your comment would work just fine.
The EU not only don’t recognise the pacific referendum, but in addition threatens the people of Crimea. I wouldn’t mind that, if EU had a clear steady policy on this, instead of double tongue. Do you remember the dissolution of Yugoslavia and the EU position??? You are about to bloodshed Europe once again, with exactly the opposite excuse!!! lol…
It’s a shame that Europe shows such an hypocritical attitude!
@Giannis: The decisions are not made by unelected bureaucrats… please read about the Council and the Member States to see who is really in charge. The issue is not the lack of democracy, but the way democracy goes from us to EU. Do you want to go through national governments or directly?
The very fabrics of European democracy and international law were destroyed in Ukraine by one single man: Putin. I said on #Euromaidan early December that we are watching the birth of a nation and a reinventing of Europe on this occasion. If we don’t act NOW, there will be no one brick left above another in Europe …
I think you should see the Crimean’s self-determination as separate from Putin’s expansionism.
Moreover, one should see Russia’s problems as linked to Putin’s dictatorship and cronyism rather than an fixed part of the country’s culture.
There still is an active opposition in Russia. What needs to happen is for the EU to stop giving Putin propaganda material in the bellicose and hypercapitalist actions of it’s member states, and to stop supporting the oil and gas trade which allow Putin easy control.
In the short term there’s no realistic return of Crimea to Ukraine, and further divisions might also be unavoidable.
In the long term, Putin is merely one of the consequences of our fossil dependency and fractured realdiplomacy that come back to haunt us.
Accountability beyond the political career and for political parties as well as individuals is key; one need look only at Shroder for an example of how our leaders escape and even profit from betraying the interests of the citizens they should have protected.
oh and to be more specific on my position on Crimea…..Russia reacted to EU and NATO actions….that how it works in life,action-reaction..after US put their puppet nazi goverment in charge it was CERTAIN that Russia will react,now crying about that is too late and hypocritic
This is not Cold War, it’s war zombies! WW3. USSR 2.0. You have seen the message on tv from Moscow! Are you Westerners in a mental metastasis or something? When will you believe? When the Russian tanks will roll on your streets?
Not all westeners are idiots, but a large number are Cristian. They all forgot Chamberlain and his “peace in our times”.
reacting on “marcel”: YES I would volunteer to fight!
Desde que se reconhea aos povos do Cucaso o direito autodeterminao e independncia se for essa a vontade expressa por referendo.
@Daniel: We must live in different Galaxies!!! The decisions in EU are taken in a specific country, by a specific party, which is now in the 4rth place, according gallops, and for specific interest.
Unfortunatly all this mess, was created for Germany’s sake and its “vital space”.
Once more the boundaries of the Europeans’ naivety are touching the unbelievable!
It was not a democratic referendum. It was military agression / occupation / annexion of teritory of independent country. And test for EU: how EU will react? If no reaction, means, someone can make even more… With all respect and warmest regards from Middle North Europe, Lithuania: ladies and gentlemen, we passed through that in 1940. It costed 50 years under soviet occupation to my native country… Please understand: what is going on in Ukraine, it is serious. No jokes. No games. And it is unpredictable. All this stuff: Russia just reacted, bla bla bla… “If you want beat the dog – you’ll find the stick”.. It was just looking for the stick, nothing more. Please imagine, that someone came to Your flat with gun. Pushed You out. And asked You vote against Your own will. Beated Your neigbour. Beated or raped Your wife, mother or sister… And etc. And if someone calls it: “policy”.. No comments. Just wish to everybody: please open Your eyes. Kindest regards from Baltic States!
You are right, I am asshamed by the cowardes of my peolple, the Dutch and sick of my countryman, for whom thousands off Canadians, Polish, English died, so we can live in freedom. Not standing up for fellow Europeans who don’t want to live under the boot of the dictator.
Crimea, dear Lithuania, was always Russian. Even before time. In addition the population are 80% Russian. Because Nikita Chroutsov, on 1954 in an administrative reform and population mixture, put it together with Ukraine, didn’t made it Ukrainian.
Farther more EU owes to follow a steady, honest policy and not to have double tongue! Do you Remember Yugoslavia? Or even more do you remember your own country???
NO, it belonged to the Crimean Tatars!!!
Dear Sotirelis, as far as a I remember Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire for much longer than Crimea was part of Russia. Does it mean it should be incorporated by Turks? Or maybe Greece should claim Turkish west coast instead? They conquered Troy once… You shouldn’t use this argument – If every country in Europe would like to change their borders like that we would have ended up with another World War.
Dear Nikolaos, Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire longer than Crimea was under the Russian rule. Does it meen they have a right to incorporate it? Or maybe Greece should incorporate Turkish coast due to the fact they conquered Troy some time ago?
Crimea belonged to the Tatars which were deported and persecuted by Stalin who imported massively Russian population to give it a russian connotation.
Daniel Pintilie I said two things – one was that Yanukovich was elected in a free and fair election and that the protesters broke their agreement which they signed with EU mediators regarding early elections in May. Here is a link about the first claim IN THE WASHINGTON POST, not exactly a mouthpiece for Moscow’s foreign policy. If you need to confirm that the people who stormed the presidential palace in Kiev initially agreed to early elections in May, I have that as well… Facebook is just very bad about posting multiple links in one comment. If you need it, feel free to reply and I will post it but I think considering it happened last month, all of us who watched the news remember it. Next time you accuse someone of being the victim of propaganda, be sure to filter through your own ignorance. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/08/AR2010020803583.html
If Western nations recognize the radical coup and the new illegitimate government of Kiev, then they have no right to claim that the referendum is illegal and illegitmate. People clearly stated their will to join the Russia, since they do not feel secure under the current government. Their will should be respected, not considered as unimportant.
If the world recognises this referendum its means they are inviting Russia to do the same with other ex countries where the russian community is big. I have many russian friends but russia must be tought a lesson
Some commentaries are very pittyful.
David Coelho what lesson is that? That states on its border which have good relations with them can just have a coup and threaten their economic and military security and they just have to deal with it because you or CNN says so? Please people, most of you clearly don’t know what the hell is going on in Kiev. If anyone thinks that Yulia Tymoshchenko, one of Ukraine’s biggest kleptocrats, is the right person to lead a charge against government corruption, whatever it is that you are smoking, you need to share.
The majority of poeple living in Crimea are Russian. No? The majority of the minorities are christian orthodox like the Russians. No? Do you really think that those real christian poeple want concepts like: individualism-king, child-king, gay marriages, adoption buy by gays, no respect to elderly poeple, no respect to family, children, … ? When Europe or the States are proposing money to Ukraina in exchange of their values, how do you call it? Would you sell your soul for money?
Do you think we are in Western Europe living in democracy? What is democracy? The power in the hands of poeple. Is it so? No, thepower is in the hands of parties which have slight differences but the same basis. It is not democracy, but PARTYCRACY. The referendum is the most democratic tool of democracy.
Nikolaos Sotirelis: “Crimea, dear Lithuania, was always Russian.” I hope you realize that always is not equal to the last couple hundred years. Also, unless you actually have a proof, please keep your opinions as opinions. There is no fact sustaining that EU is governed by a single country. It would be virtually impossible to do so for the simple reason that EU has so many layers that prevent it. Anyway, keep saying that. I am sure there are enough EU haters that know better. @Jovas: When you try to convince us that Russia is the good guy here, you are showing signs of brainwashing. That is all. I never said that what you said about the former Ukrainian president was wrong. Better pick your battles. From all people commenting here, how many know how dangerous Russia can be in the hands of a crazy man? I am pretty sure that not many. FYI, what happens now in Crimea is nothing new. Please study recent history to understand it better. In any case, it’s so funny to see people enjoying freedom and no repercussion for their opinions praising Russia as some sort of land of freedom. When any of you will end up in prison because they say something against your government here in EU, please let me know. Then at least you’ll have a reason to make comparisons between EU and Russia. until then, enjoy freedom, some people must give their lives to have it but you just take it for granted.
Im gonna be harsh here towards some nationalities here…sadly,the Baltic ex-soviet nations now in EU and ofc accompanied with Poland,all of em have ethic hatred towards Russia and are quite paranoid about Russia…so i dont think their opinions is something you can call…unbiased.Its like me,a Greek,giving opinion about Turkey….i mean common,some common sense here….as for daniel above trying to convice me about the democratic structure of EU…plz…Greece is living it,the hard way……we cant fart here in Greece without troika or Eurogroup (Merkel) says we can,first…to give a few examples,on Eurogroups…we are *negotiating* with Merkel mainly,no one else is talking in there when they are to talk about Greece ….there have been various times that *answers* that should come from Brussels,dont come from Brussels but from Berlin…and this is just the surface…also we got a German minister of something similar,Fuhtel his name is….that roams the country and our ministries giving *advice*…sadly my country is a German debt colony…all Greeks know this,at least the majority of us
I like how EU haters claim to be so well informed on Ukraine and Crimea but have no clue on how EU works, why a referendum cannot be democratic when you are under occupation. Nobody can claim that EU or US are saints. But when you support Russia you are spiting on the blood of all those that fought for your freedom. In any case, for people living in western Europe or even in Greece, Russia is unknown. They have no clue how damaging it can be. No wonder they think Russia is in Crimea to do a good deed.
@Giannis: Well, maybe we should also say the same if you oppose to Turkey entering EU. But we don’t because we respect your opinion.
Daniel, Russia isn’t the “good guy.” Russia is acting in its own self interest which was to stabilize Yanukovich, and as a back up plan protect its naval bases in the Crimea and its pipelines from Russia to Eastern Erope. The nationalists in the Ukraine are also acting in their own self interest, which is to dominate half a country that doesn’t agree with them. I am not trying to turn this into a good vs. evil debate where one poor unfortunate side if fighting for freedom while topping democratically elected leaders while the other is led by a “crazy man. That’s what you are doing. Let me be the first to use my freedom and tell you that your Bull$&!t is way too obvious. keep saying I am brainwashed. you have nothing but personal attacks to come back with, which only helps prove my point.
as eu recognized the kosovo indepedentence should recogize the crimea independence
The Crimea is invaded and annexted. Kosovo is independent.
Jovan, your opinion on Russia is enough to prove my point. I guess Russia’s interest justifies whatever in your view. Human rights? We have a pipeline to protect. You are so funny. By the way, I have recent history and what happened in Transnistria to show you how Russia is nothing but trouble. In any case, in Russian parliament are more nationalists than in the Ukrainian one. Also, when you’ll have a free referendum under the occupation of a foreign army, let me know.
@ Daniel: When you read a post read it all and if you don’t at least read history before. Crimea was in Ukrain since 1954 as a result of soviet policy and not of course for “a couple hundred years ago. Farther more if you are blind enough to denay the fact that the last years Europe is under German control that isn’t my fault. You just have to open your eyes. Unless you don’t want to. Finally the EU haters and destroyers are exactly those which promote a German Europe, instead of a Europe of equal nations and people!
Human rights? A democratically elected government gets overthrown on the streets and those people are there to protect human rights? Are you even serious? If you think that people who don’t respect democracy, who couldn’t wait until May to vote in a new President and let the democratically elected one serve out his term for a few more months, whose first (or one of the first) act was to eliminate Russian as one of two official languages, if you think they can guarantee human rights to people, then your motive here has nothing to do with human rights but as is often the case, “human rights” is a rallying cy for one nationalist cause or another. I have no idea what your problem is with Russia or why you bring Transdniestria into this. Maybe you are just bitter Romania can’t annex Moldova and are pissed off the Russians are able to do it. Either way, it’s not the point.
I would like EU to impose very hard and serous sanction to Russia! And DO NOT recognize the results of so called “referendum” in Crimea! Changing international borders with the muscles and force is VERY VERY dangerous.
Very well Nikolaos Sotirelis!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a0a_1394967467
Sunny considering your own Facebook page is openly favorable to Croatia’s Nazi puppet regime from World War 2 and your cover photo accuses Croatia’s own prime minister of being a “mongrel” and a Communist (I think Mongrel has been considered unacceptable for several decades now), that is hardly a surprise. It’s a pity that Brussels has found a way to line up its interest with yours.
Yeah….thats the correct way to deal with nazis…not support them,like EU does,all the rest are politics and this isnt even Crimea,but just eastern Ukraine…what about those people opinion?is worth less than the western population?and this is just one city,there tons more videos out there of the same happening in other cities of Ukraine….suppoting the nazi goverment is just wrong,do you even know that the first thing they did was to cancel the law that made Russian official minority language?along side with making communist part illegal?also…to the one saying that Greeks dont know anything about Russia and Ukraine…do you know that there is a Greek minority in Ukraine?we get way more feedback from there than most of you i bet…and the Greek minority in Ukraine is siding with Russia….just saying….as for Turkey joining EU…its on the works,ofc we forget that Turkey doesnt recognise Cyprus as a country,an EU member….and ofc we say nothing,or you do and i havent heard it maybe?…about hte occupation of 1/3 of the island from Turkish troops…Russia doesnt want to enter EU last time i checked
Yes, this is what the people want. If we talk about real democrasy then EU must respect what they want.
Nikolaos Sotirelis: When you read a comment, please understand it. I was referring to your “always” that was only before Soviet Union and until now in which period they expelled the tatars and replaced them with Russians and then put it in Ukraine. So, other peoples have a longer history there than Russians. Yes, so many countries that fought Germany in WWII are promoting a German EU. Just crazy! Jovan Ivosevic: Well, thanks again for twisting my words. I was refering to the fact that Putin claims that he respects human rights. Anyway, never mind, you think Romania wants to annex Moldova. :))) Really, that’s the best you can say? Why on earth we would want a poor country in Romania with so many issues? Are you high? Transdniestria issue is important because it’s Russian way of doing things. In case you are not familiar, there is a Russian army there ever since Moldova became independent so no wonder what happened next. What happens in Crimea is nothing new because it already happened elsewhere. So, please don’t put words in my mouth. I like how people, the farther they live, the better they think they know.
What the heck is the NATO still working?? It should have been closed by end of the Soviet Union…Now, see what shit they produce…Russia is right to protect its inner circle..
Well, Hitler had his supporters in the west as well…
No wonder some people supported Nazi. Now others support Putin. At least even in Russia we have people that can still think for themselves: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/vladmir-putin-crimea-hitler-1938-104711.html#.UycfBXeE98G
Daniel if you think people who violently overthrow democratically elected governments are guardians of human rights, I have no idea what to think about your motivations. I am simply saying you either don’t have a concept of how those two are intertwined, or you have some bias towards Russia that only you are privy to. All I see is an argument that is non sensical on the facts
P.S. Nicholas caught you that you didn’t know the history of Crimea and when it was handed off to the Ukraine so you are trying to spin your way out of it. No one is buying it. The measure of a man is often based on the ability to learn from his mistakes, not to pretend like he knows something when it’s obvious to everyone else he doesn’t.
Catherine the Great made Crimea Russian …….http://www.blacksea-crimea.com/history1.html
forza Putin.
Moldova was Romanian and everybody that knows a little bit of History knows how became part of USSR. It is more than fair, if Moldova would go back into Romania. The same way is more than fair Gibraltar (ocupied by UK) go back to Spain or Olivenza (ocupied by Spain) go back to Portugal. Most likely there are many these small problems in Europe.
Dear Daniel, I won’t follow you, to your either ignorance, or hopeless trying to justify the unexcused. Right now I’m watching on TV the massive celebrations in Crimea of the referendum result. As the Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians, Lithuanians, Latvians and others did a few years ago. 73% participation, 97.5% YES.
And I believe that Harkovo, Donesk and Odessa comes next. I don’t wish to, but I think so. Germany via EU played a shameless power game, which wasn’t even able to win.
Well once again “if you plant ice you will harvest wind”
It was a democratic choice, I think, whatever my opinion about the results is.
My view is we are being hoodwinked by the West. They want war, it is a big money earner for arms dealers and their dividends grow nicely. They want to bring down the EU and go ahead with world rule by the financial sector. The Germans are being used as pawns in this game as Washington hates Germany, always has.
The best outcome for this is Europe to stay beside the Russians and let the rest go. A deal can be made that will be of benefit to all. Think smart and listen carefully.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sybU44T6zbo
Let’s suppose Ukrainian split between the Russian and Ukrainian majority provinces. Let’s suppose the “European” west side would become, first an associated country and later a full member of EU. Because of the interconnection with EU, the laws would become more democratic, the corruption will lower, and, the new Ukrainian will develop reaching an economic status like Poland right now. I bet that in a few years time, the Russian-Ukranians would question themselves if they had made the right choice. Despite all shortcomings of EU, we cannot deny, EU is a space of freedom, democracy and nobody goes to jail for questioning the Power of the Government. If I had learned about my interest in History, it was to know that democratic countries develop faster than authoritative ones.
No, it would become less democratic, because all countries in the EU by definition cannot be democratic. That is because the EU itself isn’t democratic. And these Brussels apparatchiks steal our money and then reward themselves with income tax exemption.
..no marcel, in this Union you can say whatever you like and your rights are respected. Not so in Russia, journalists are shot dead, oponents poisoned and other critics to the gulag, so stop spewing drivel.
If the outcome was 51-49% or even 60-40% then those that oppose the referendum have a strong point. But with 96% the situation is obvious.
Lets see with details what are the members of this new *democratic* goverment of Ukraine is….. Andriy Parubiy [right] co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (subsequently renamed Svoboda) was appointed Secretary of the National Security and National Defense Committee (RNBOU). (???? ???????????? ??????? ? ??????? ???????), a key position which overseas the Ministry of Defense, the Armed Forces, Law Enforcement, National Security and Intelligence. The RNBOU is central decision-making body. While it is formally headed by the president, it is run by the Secretariat with a staff of 180 people including defense, intelligence and national security experts. Dmytro Yarosh, leader of the Right Sector delegation in the parliament, has been appointed Parubiy?s deputy Secretary of the RNBOU.
Yarosh was the leader of the Brown Shirt Neo-Nazi paramilitary during the EuroMaidan ?protest? movement. He has called for disbanding the Party of the regions and the Communist Party. The Neo Nazi party also controls the judicial process with the appointment of Oleh Makhnitsky of the Svoboda party to the position of prosecutor-general of Ukraine. What kind of justice will prevail with a reknown Neo-Nazi in charge of the Prosecutor?s Office of Ukraine? Cabinet positions were also allocated to former members of the Neo-Nazi fringe organization Ukrainian National Assembly ? Ukrainian National Self Defense (UNA-UNSO):
?Tetyana Chernovol, portrayed in the Western press as a crusading investigative journalist without reference to her past involvement in the anti-Semitic UNA-UNSO, was named chair of the government?s anti-corruption committee. Dmytro Bulatov, known for his alleged kidnapping by police, but also with UNA-UNSO connections, was appointed minister of youth and sports.
Yegor Sobolev, leader of a civic group in Independence Maidan and politically close to Yatsenyuk, was appointed chair of the Lustration Committee, charged with purging followers of President Yanukovych from government and public life. (See Ukraine Transition Government: Neo-Nazis in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education, Global Research, March 02, 2014
questo referendum è stato una grande vittoria della diplomazia secondo me, conflitto bellico rinviato in attesa di esercito unico europeo, conflitto economico in corso… se è vero che america ed europa hanno tanto gas da poter fare a meno delle forniture russe, la crimea vale bene l’ucraina nel centro dell’europa… scacco matto a Puitin.
Nothing is forever, not even the borders of Ukraine.
Jovan, please read my comments. I know the history of Crimea very well because one of the wars of Crimea was very important for my country. In any case, please let me know which government was violently overthrown by EU and the proofs you have. Otherwsie, it’s just hearsay. By the way, Russia was opposed to Kosovo becoming independent but has no issue when it’s suitable for them. P.S. Romania never recognized Kosovo and I don’t think we ever will. Nicolas, thanks for your kind words. I know Crimea history better than you, but if you think that that justifies what Russians do, then I guess there is no reason to have a discussion. Too bad that the same principle do not apply to people living in Russian Federation.
Quando necessário referendar uma situação politica é uma verdadeira
justificação ou alternativa politica. Num Estado de Direito a democracia impera como solução às decisões da sociedade. Portanto a Ucrânia tem Constituição democrática, Crimeia então irá otar por uma solução democrática e respeitando a integridade territorial no
âmbito das relações internacionais. A U.E tem uma politica democrática então sejam moderados e cumpridores de um Estado de Direito.
Philippe Juvin is right. Russia’s action violates (at least) Principles I, II, III, IV, V, VI and X of the Helsinki Final Act; the Budapest Memorandum of 1994; and above all the UN Charter. And to put Panos right: the last time there was a census, Crimea was 58% Russian; Crimean Tatars, the indigenous people, who suffered appallingly under Soviet rule, made up 12%; most of the remainder were Ukrainians. There is no guarantee that in a free and fair referendum a majority could have been found for joining Russia. What we saw on 16 March was a referendum carried out under occupation, with two alternatives neither of which was the status quo, in circumstances of extreme anti-Ukrainian propaganda and with evidence to suggest falsification of the figures (123% turn-out in Sevastopol?). Under no circumstances should the EU accept Crimea’s annexation by Russia – any more than it has accepted the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus” as an independent country.
The war is not solution but a crime…
Why you think Daniel that you know Crimea history better than Greeks?…we have populated the area from ancient times,way before slavs even came itno the region and we even have a minority there of 200000 that has ties with Greece,so why u think u know better,do tell,you got a secret power or something?…also i see you are not making any comments about the nazi being in charge of the army,justice,education and what not….i see a bright future for the this new ukraine indeed with those leading them…and the question can be revolved…ok Russia didnt recognise Kosovo and now is using what happened there…why is EU that made Kosovo happen dont allow the Crimea to do the same?…these questions are troubling me,plz share your greater wisdom with us
Let me see! EU recognized the unselected new Ukrainian government, which took the power by force and in which participate several neonazis and ultra-nationalists, but refuses to recognize the result of a pacific referendum and even threatens the Crimea’s citizens!!!
What the heck, I don’t understand???
And wich European army is marching through the streets of Kiev?
Democracy at gunpoint is not democracy!
that`s the eu for you.
@Nikolaos mmm…well….remember it was the old president who did not listen to his own parliament and to the people when he rejected stronger connections to the EU. it was the president who was violent to protesters, it was the president who stole billions of dollars from the country the ukrain.
Unlike of course Yulia Tymoshenko who apparently didn’t steal billions of dollars from Ukraine, right? And it was the neo-nazi thugs from western Ukraine that provoked violence.
and further on i am worried about russian nazis in Chrimea what will they do with minorities, anyone who thinks different? what will happen to the ukrainians and tartars on Chrimea? is anyone thinking/caring about that?
Be worried more about the neo-nazis that are part of Ukraine’s government.
Well at least “marcel” doesn’t give a shit, as long as our Union is destroyed..
Russia is right.West support a new-nazists illegal gonernment in Kiev.Sanctions will only hurt E.U.
UE o referendo do Kosovo é valido ou invalido A UE deve ser mais responsável com as suas decisões politicas Internacionais e resolver os problemas que chamam-se Europa
If Russia wouldn’t have had Kossovo precedent ,the things would have been more simple now for EU and USA…
Of course not!!! This is ilegal, completely.
Yes,i think Russia is right.West support a new-nazists illegal gonernment in Kiev.Sanctions will only hurt E.U.
completely legal…crimea is Russian..they voted for Russia and the fasists that the EU and USA support in Ukraine should def not be welcome..i hate agreession and i hate racism but having lived through both from Germany i say LEAVE THEM ALONE! retarted EU is trying to become the police cos the americans have got bored of being hated..leave ukraine and russia and crimea alone! we in EU do not have the authority or the balls do dictate to other nations what is right! we have millions of unmployed people..35% of Greeks live below the poverty line and these assholes are trying to intervine..fuck you hippies..if you want to save Ukraine go and volunteer and attack Russia by yourselves…
NO
We have to stop following US with no brain anywhere. Focus on self-integrity instead of expanding.
It was the EU that caused this mess NOT the US!
Germany and France tried to lasso the Ukraine into the EU-sphere of influence too quickly and with T&Cs that were not good for Ukraine.
EVEN the corrupt ex-leader of Ukraine couldn’t sign such a one-sided deal!!
Crimea – majority of Russian poeple and orthodox poeple – so the results are logically against Western values. I hate what European leading parties have made to Europe. European leading parties are crushing European cultures and are making dull; empty, submitted individuals who neglect their own culture, past, elderly poeple, family values, … In Europe, there is no democracy but partycracies. In Europe all is getting worse. Poland is just a vitrine. Look in the European countries, is it getting better? Look in Western Europe, is it getting better? You are just puppets repeating what you have been told form childhood …
Either the right of self-determination belongs to all or to no-one! It’s that simple and the EU should first evaluate its role and position in other conflicts in its area and then hurry to enforce measures that could potentially harm some of its member-states…
I do not say that everything is idealistic in Russia, but since 1992, they have achieved a lot while Europe is constantly going down on all topics.
We all must accept the fact that it’s time to say good by to Americans it’s a new era started by Putin he is an extremely intelligent man and can be very useful for a more stronger Eu after all the whole of Europe is dependent for energy on Russia and the action in Crimea is justified and is accepted by people of Crimea, forget about the American media propaganda as they are pursuing more personal interest rather then the interest of the Ukrainian people .
EU should recognise the results of he referendum in Crimea and withdraw its support from the NAZI friendly illegal government of Kiev.
The EU must toying with the expansion policies are to pay Europeans.
No, it is not.
I think someone is playing with fire. It’s very dangerous.
Considering that Russia supplies most of Germany’s natural gas it would be more likely named Cold Shower War
good one!!!!!!!
Guillem Mart Bou yes, it is indeed “illegal” for the EU/US, when decisions of the people differ from their own interests ;) now everyone can see what the opinion of the people really counts for our great auper-democratic EU… wake up ;)))
The EU should shut up and start accepting it is not the center of the world. No does the EU have the right to the last word on the degree of democracy and legitimacy of elections and/or referendums in foreign country’s.
And since all the EU is just sitting, and calling Putin names, instead of fighting for Ukraine, and/or giving financial aid to Kiev, i suggest the EU to stay silent. Otherwise the russians will enter NATO all the way to Brussels.
I had once dreamed a Europe of peace, of prosperity, of brotherhood, of solidarity, of equality, of democracy, of free people, of proud nations. A Europe that could be the lighthouse and the inspiration for the rest of the World.
I woke up and found out that this wasn’t my dream. This is someone else’s dream. It looks like the 4rth Raich’s dream.
It looks like Europe’s worst nightmare!
Yes, and Putin is building it
I don’t think that the term cold war should be used, nor that the EU should even think in not accept the referendum. If there is a breach in international law UN should interfere, but only UN. And, most of all, Crimea should have the right to decide, and Russia is only protectiong their vital area – their vital interests – something that both the EU and the USA have always done it. Let’s think a bit and specially, we should really have once and for all a clear direction of the domestic and foreign policy of the EU and not of the individual states of this so called regional institution
Ever heard of the genocide on the original peolple of the Crimea the Tatars?, By the Russians? Those people, now a minority in their own land, fear for their lives!!
Russia has been far away in their intentions to take Crimea from Ukraine. They finally achieve the initial goal: making Crimea part of their country. The EU, should now determinate what measures must contribute to call Russia to the reality. The USA, for at least only once, should stay out of this conflict. We already have a cold war: we are not gonna have the second part of it.
Definitly United States of America are moving nuclear forces to some european countries, The excuse is the enforcment of the OTAN, the atlantic alliance. However we can’t close our eyes to hapenings like this one. I think that is obvious that EUA are using the EU and OTAN to show some power over Russia. That’s not a cold war between EU and Russia . EUA are tryng to call the OTAN to the “mess”
Illegal. Not all the questions were asked, the one referring to keeping the actual autonomy status was not there. Army and fear on the streets. Is that democracy?
I don’t like referendums and similar expressions of popular will. I do prefer bombs enforced democracy. I would love smelling phosphorus burning flesh.
Аз сам българин и признавам референдума в Крим !
Я болгарском и признает референдум в Крыму!
I am Bulgarian and recognize the referendum in the Crimea!
To have your opinion is one thing. To support it with ridiculous arguments is another. The questions were 2
1. Are you in favor of the reunion, like a member of Russian federation?
2. Are you in favor of returning to the 1992 Constitution like a member of Ukrainian federation?
Results: 1. 96.77% / Participation: 83.1% !!!
The referendum happened without any incident at all. The most characteristic picture was the guy who went to vote dressed with the Ukrainian flag.
Even If you consider that “fear” was rulling, that can’t explain the huge participation. If you fear you stay home.
And if you have no true argument it’s smarter to keep silent! (otherwise it’s called provocation and believe me that ain’t democratic).
Ukraine-Krise: Japan schliet sich Sanktionen gegen Russland an
The EU caused this problem by trying to Annex Ukraine. Russia has seen this as a step too far and is looking after the interest of its own people in Crimea. The EU has no military might to back up its expansionist ambitions so now Russia has called its bluff, it is time for the EU to scuttle off and stick to what it does best, i.e. waste taxpayers money on business lunches and pointless legislation
This is not the way things should be done. Referendum would be ok, if there were no guns and soldiers. Putin is betting just as Hitler did, that western Europe will do nothing. And it looks like he is right.
Putin is what he is! A cruel undemocratic leader. No better and no worse from several European leaders. At least he treats his “subjects” more fair than some of his colleagues in EU. However if you live in Luxembourg, which has an enormous debt of 3500 %(!!!) of GDP and which is far the biggest tax oasis and nobody touches you because you’re a tax heaven for Germans instead for Russians, then of course, you can’t see the difference.
The only connections between Hitler and today are the 3rd and the 4rth Reich and the theory for the German “vital space”. (and the neonazis in Ukrain and all over Europe)!
Putin plays his games full of lies and demonstration of the military strength of Russia, because he knows that many Russians will like it and will go to bed hungry but excited if they’ll have unhappy, scared and lost traditional “enemies” in the West. Putin uses the Soviet tradition of occupying and annexing weak lost little lands and the recent lies of the USA making military actions, and the Kosovo case. The West that is or has been unfair to other countries as well, looks ridiculous to Russians when it screams “thieves and killers” about Russia, even when Russia is thieves and killers indeed as well. Russians are used to the lies that Russians are never thieves and killers and always the saviors. They had those lies in their official history school books always and forever. Crimea is already full of Russians and it had been part of Russia and Russian info-area for centuries. Russia has an image of a rich powerful country in the eyes of those Russians. Ukraine seems weak, corrupt and poor. Russia could have gotten Crimea back in a more slow and more fair process, but Putin needs a crisis and a war exactly now, quickly, because economical crisis without wars and enemies would put him into bigger danger making him get far lesser respect of the fooled controlled Russian masses. Russians love to imagine that they live in a strong country and have clever leaders, albeit they are living fooled, robbed, hated, oppressed and hungry in that rich country with those clever and rich leaders. Putin does not care what his face in the West will look like now. He only cares of keeping Russians ruled and not angry in the streets. So yeah, what ever you enjoy.
Economic sanctions immediately! Europe can not afford renewed Treaties of Monaco or appeasement towards imperialistic policies and undemocratic. We must strike where Putin is weaker: without the euro from exports of oil and gas created his consent on threats and corruption will collapse like a house of cards. It can no longer renew the armed forces and can no longer pay those who support him. Will be weakened internally and externally. And Europe needs to be strong on the Crimea: a referendum made under the threat of foreign arms and overt fraud and threats to minorities can not and should not be recognized because it violates the most basic norms of international law.
Personally, in this whole mess I think I am most disappointed by the fact that nihilism is so trendy among people. People hate on the EU and the West more broadly, but offer no alternative. The absolute worst is when you see people who benefit from what the EU has to offer side with Putin. Even some comments here call Russia more democratic than the EU… really?!? Would anyone like to qualify such remarks?
The alternative is for the EU to keep it’s nose out of highly contentious countries . Unfortunately it’s ambitions greatly outweigh its abilities and it’s now stirred up a hornets nest and expects NATO and the US to bail it out. Take note all those who claim the EU should have its own army, god help the planet if it ever does
The Ukrainian and other neoNazis endangering the Russians and Russian-speakers of Crimea and other parts of Ukraine (and even in places in the ex-USSR which Putin dreams to have weak forever if Russia can’t have them) now more than ever is a big fat lie.
@Paul X:
The EU is not expecting or asking NATO and the USA, which is NATO, to bail them out. it is being forced on the EU and monitored by our stand ins. This was was clearly shown in the phone call by Victoria Nuland, the woman who clearly despises Europe and, if my instincts serves me well, the UK. Think swearing mouth Nuland loves us, Paul? Think again.
There was NO referendum, there was a comedy.
Go ask Russia to protect your country from something imaginary as well, if you are saying Putin is right, even if your country doesn’t border Russia, Putin will be glad, if your imaginary danger will be somewhat believable to fools abroad and hard to beat.
Some Greeks and Serbs, thank you for hating the Baltic states, loving Russia and lying about them, ;)
I think that if we are not careful this cold war could turn into a hot war very very easily
and this could turn into a major conflict
It scares me when I read the comments. A lot of people tend to like thinking propaganda. When you come into discussion with the educated russians you hear straightly said that there is nothing close to democracy left in Russia. When they share the state about human rights you can understand that this is nothing close to the Europe.
Also try to think why educated/rich russians move out their property out of Russia. Finally how you can call things in Crimea as a legitimate vote when there were voters who have no Ukrainian nationality, when there are no voting lists, etc…
If a guy in the classroom bullies his classmates and forces to give him the lunch money is it a legal action? Cause the current Putins regime is bullying Ukraine in the classrom of all Europe.
I do not understand this: “We cannot accept modifications of territory as Russia wants, because if we accept this it’s an open door to a lot of new issues.”
Who are “we”?? Ukraine wants it (Referendum has shown that), Russians want that … Who are those “we” that will rise and say: “No we do not agree!” – nobody cares, they agree so stay out of their business … especially the United States – What is that thing with your opinion?? It has nothing to do with America – don not interfere, your opinion is not a subject of discussion.
123% voted in Sevastopol :D this all is a joke. How Eu can accept the results if no media was alloud to watch referendum, russions hired by their adorable president came to crimea and voted ceveral times, dead received invitations, while alive people did not. Who believes in this referendum, lies to themself !!!! Yes, there are russians in Crimea : those who work in black sea fleet and those who got russian passports from putin in 2008. As you can see putin woked really hard to get the majority of population to be russian so he can realise his hidden sick plans. Crimea is Ukraine. Those who is scared to admit it will face futher nonsens from Putin! 3 planes 1 ship from each eu contry – could show russians in Crimea that they are not welcome there!
In fact, don’t worry, business as usual will be done anyway. Russian style business as usual and the big, rich Western countries’ business as usual. No matter how different styles those are. Both are in fact agreeing that the weak shall lose and the poor shall stay poor and scared, so the rich could stay rich and have fun in peace.
Build more nuclear power plants. Put an embargo on russian gas and forbid russians from using western stock exchanges. Close Bospherus and Danish straits to russian ships and install missile defence systems next to all russian borders. Open the door to immediate NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia.
It will hurt europe, but it will cripple Russia. And Putin needs to get his megalomania bubble burst. Russian expansionism requires we take the gloves off.
????? ???????!
Bea trix no Greek hates Baltic States. You are mistaken (even I’m not sure for the opposite). On contrary we said to treat Crimean people equal. To support their massive wish as they did with the Baltic states. Human rights are much more important than stupid power games.
In addition dear Bea trix the Crimean citizens know better than anyone what is the best for them.
Nikolaos, so you state that f.e. gipsies, if they come in 20 000 group and would settle in one island of Greece should be able to separate from Greece? Otherwise we are coming back to the start – there were no normal procedure that could be called referendum. And only the referendum could show what normal majority of people want in Crimea.
1. The German-led West European Usurers Corporation (disguised as “European Union”) did a blunder by getting involved in the internal affairs of an independent state (Ukraine). They considered Bush-Gorbatchev’s 1988 agreements dead; thus, they pushed forward, threatening the vital space of a key-player and stabilizing force at the Black Sea region. Keeping in mind that the USA is not an ally of the 4th Reich, the US diplomacy, smartly left the neo-nazionalist German elite to fall into the cage of Ukraine. A new cold war between the “West” and Russia would affect more the German-led West European Usurers Corporation than Russia or the USA.
2. Calling Russia to preserve international law provisions like the territorial integrity of Ukraine is laughable since H.D.Genscher kicked off the dissolution of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1991 and Y.Fischer was keen supporter of the military invasion that led to the secession of Kossovo from Serbia in 1999. V.Putin is simply copying their “legitimate” practices (bloodlessly! not like Kossovo) 15-25 years later.
3. The USA stay aside, waiting the failure of “Europe” (namely, the neonazionalist 4th Reich), in order to regain control of the continent with respect to the Yalta-1945 agreements regarding the spheres of influence between them and Russia.
Good night “Europe”….
I believe the Russians invaded that independent country and the state that looks the most like the third reich is nowadays Russia under the führer Putin. The Greeks know what it is to live under dictators and fought against the nazi’s. If you believe your country was better of under the colonels or under the boot of the nazi”s, you are right.
Dear Debby,
My country has been invaded by the ECB/EU/IMF gang almost 4 years ago and, believe me, we undergo worse times regarding democracy (namely preservation of basic Constitutional provisions like the right to free collective labor agreements, the right to private property, the right to having access to proper public Health Services etc.) than in the 1970s (1974-81; the colonels surrendered power in 1974). Besides, we know very well that the basic enemy and always trouble-maker of Europe, namely GERMANY, undertook action beyond its legitimate authority, bypasssing the will of other member-states (paradoxically, Germany is the only one who gains from the euro-paranoia to the expense of the EU periphery) in regions that may provoke major international conflicts.
These facts you strongly dislike to understand, along with my remarks above (that you bypassed without argument) show the deficiency of the German-led EU political argument on Ukraine and the support of politcal forces there that have nothing to do with European values like DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS etc. Of course, if you look carefully, you may understand that the hidden agenda of the 4th Reich is to offer support to old allies to the expense of old enemies (Slovenia, Croatia and Ukrain offer plenty of evidence). The only country that can detter the neo-nazionalist aggression of the 4th Reich is GREECE:
1. it is the only country that has not been compensated for the damages caused during WW I and WW II by Germany; War Reparations + interest amount to more than 400bn USD in courent prices (the Greek debt is aprox. 340bn)
2. Germany still owes to Greece the payments for the two loans extracted from the Bank of Greece in 1942 and 1943. The tottal amount was calculated in 5,6million gold English pounds (1,2million ounches of gold) in 1947 + interest
3. Germany still owes a full and unreserved expression of apology to the more than 0,5million deads that left behind during their barbaric invasion and occupation of Greece (6/4/1941-9/5/1945)
4. Germany still owes compensation to the relatives of the victims of attrocities committed by the German occupation army in Greece against civilians and their property.
Till Germany settles its accounts with History, I can not consider it as a CIVILIZED, PEACEFULL nation; in the contrary, it constitutes a MAJOR THREAT to EUROPE.
EU should respect after WWII documents
EU should respect after WWII documents
Dear Vytenis Kepenis the only reason that I’ll respond to your racist comment is that you look young and it’s a pity to have young people such ideas. If you want my opinion yes. After all the Baltic states did exactly the same.
Now if you ask me what the EU should do, I would tell you, at least to keep a clear and steady policy on these matters. Not in the case of Baltic and Yugoslavia to stand for one policy and in the case of Crimea (or even Belgium, or Catalonia, or Scotland) another one, according to its interest.
Dear Vytenis Kepenis the only reason that I’ll respond to your racist comment is that you look young and it’s a pity to have young people such ideas. If you want my opinion yes. After all the Baltic states did exactly the same.
Now if you ask me what the EU should do, I would tell you, at least to keep a clear and steady policy on these matters. Not in the case of Baltic and Yugoslavia to stand for one policy and in the case of Crimea (or even Belgium, or Catalonia, or Scotland) another one, according to its interest.
To Nikolaos Sotirelis and many others: hey, look earlier, than this damned gensek Chrushcev.. At least look at real historical facts and how tzarist Russia tried “protect christians ortodoxes” initiating Crimean war with the West and Turkey., etc.: “For over 200 years, Russia had been expanding in a southerly direction toward the warm water ports of the Black Sea. Warm water ports that did not freeze over in the winter were essential for the development of Russian year-round trade and development of a strong navy.[9]:11 This brought the emerging Russian state into conflict with the Ukrainian Cossacks and then with the Crimean Tatars.[14] When Russia conquered these groups and gained possession of Ukraine, the Ottoman Empire lost its buffer zone against Russian expansion, and Russia and the Ottoman Empire fell into direct conflict. The conflict with the Ottoman Empire also presented a religious issue of importance, as Russia saw itself as the protector of Orthodox Christians, many of whom lived under Ottoman control”. For more, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
To Nikolaos Sotirelis and many others: hey, look earlier, than this damned gensek Chrushcev.. At least look at real historical facts and how tzarist Russia tried “protect christians ortodoxes” initiating Crimean war with the West and Turkey., etc.: “For over 200 years, Russia had been expanding in a southerly direction toward the warm water ports of the Black Sea. Warm water ports that did not freeze over in the winter were essential for the development of Russian year-round trade and development of a strong navy.[9]:11 This brought the emerging Russian state into conflict with the Ukrainian Cossacks and then with the Crimean Tatars.[14] When Russia conquered these groups and gained possession of Ukraine, the Ottoman Empire lost its buffer zone against Russian expansion, and Russia and the Ottoman Empire fell into direct conflict. The conflict with the Ottoman Empire also presented a religious issue of importance, as Russia saw itself as the protector of Orthodox Christians, many of whom lived under Ottoman control”. For more, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
About hating Baltic States and all other strange opinions here.. It is easy and even funny discuss that so wisely, sitting somewhere far, making theories, claiming Crimeans knew hwta they want, and etc.. How many of discussing here and protecting this annexion here are that so courage, that would choose: say their own opinion or die? I doubt, that And how good protectors are Russian soldiers, sorry, if pogroms against Crimean tatars already have started? Shame on you, who can’t open eyes enough, leave own comfort zone, and try find out the truth. Even Russian people made demonstrations in Moscow, supporting Ukraina, being arrested, beated… and you can’t more, than only support this rude imperial force?… Plus please do mnot forget, that all this, it not about nation. Russian are nice as nation, I have many friends Russians myself. It is all about: concrete cruel regime and opression. By the way.. What about dear supporting this occupation gentlemen from Serbia .. May be let’s discuss about Kosovo, too? Someone here wants see documentary about Albanian genocide there, may be? Seems, the only one their crime was, because wanted rights for their ethnic minority? and OMG, what a bastards, wanted even their own Albanian schools there, right?.. So stop make historical mistakes, choosing side of agressors, please..
About hating Baltic States and all other strange opinions here.. It is easy and even funny discuss that so wisely, sitting somewhere far, making theories, claiming Crimeans knew hwta they want, and etc.. How many of discussing here and protecting this annexion here are that so courage, that would choose: say their own opinion or die? I doubt, that And how good protectors are Russian soldiers, sorry, if pogroms against Crimean tatars already have started? Shame on you, who can’t open eyes enough, leave own comfort zone, and try find out the truth. Even Russian people made demonstrations in Moscow, supporting Ukraina, being arrested, beated… and you can’t more, than only support this rude imperial force?… Plus please do mnot forget, that all this, it not about nation. Russian are nice as nation, I have many friends Russians myself. It is all about: concrete cruel regime and opression. By the way.. What about dear supporting this occupation gentlemen from Serbia .. May be let’s discuss about Kosovo, too? Someone here wants see documentary about Albanian genocide there, may be? Seems, the only one their crime was, because wanted rights for their ethnic minority? and OMG, what a bastards, wanted even their own Albanian schools there, right?.. So stop make historical mistakes, choosing side of agressors, please..
Nikolaos – I am not racist. I am asking about the community of people who settle in your country because of some reason (in Crimean case job. Job at the Russian Navy). And don`t mix the things. In Baltics case there were Native people who made the decision. In Crimean – not. At least not in a proper way when you are able to count who is able to vote, who is a job immigrant/family member of some ob immigrant.
If you fail the understand the principles of fair voting, you fail to understand what the democracy is. And it is, imho, the right to make informative decisions with no pressure over you. And the decisions are being made by people who have this right. In Crimea it was not the case.
Damn, according to the statistics there were cases when more then 100% people voted. So if you find this legitimate, then ok, let us, 100 Lithuanians come to a small island of Greece, to settle there for some time (lets say for a year) and afterward to separate from the Greece. Because that is what is happening in Crimea.
Nikolaos – I am not racist. I am asking about the community of people who settle in your country because of some reason (in Crimean case job. Job at the Russian Navy). And don`t mix the things. In Baltics case there were Native people who made the decision. In Crimean – not. At least not in a proper way when you are able to count who is able to vote, who is a job immigrant/family member of some ob immigrant.
If you fail the understand the principles of fair voting, you fail to understand what the democracy is. And it is, imho, the right to make informative decisions with no pressure over you. And the decisions are being made by people who have this right. In Crimea it was not the case.
Damn, according to the statistics there were cases when more then 100% people voted. So if you find this legitimate, then ok, let us, 100 Lithuanians come to a small island of Greece, to settle there for some time (lets say for a year) and afterward to separate from the Greece. Because that is what is happening in Crimea.
And after looking once more through all comments.. here, after soviet occup[ation times, we have one good joke.. Putin’s Russia pay you for that thaaaaaaat so well (according to the fact, that before II World war even Stalin, while Russia was starving itself, gave 50 000 golden rubliai for communistic underground in Baltic States and destroying establishing of military union of Baltic States, such called Baltic Antant?….) if we talk not about theories, but historicxal facts, based on concrete scientific sources… So.. Do they pay – or you make it for free? :) :) Kindest regards from Baltic States,. wish more of peace, friendship and love to everybody in this crazy world :)
And after looking once more through all comments.. here, after soviet occup[ation times, we have one good joke.. Putin’s Russia pay you for that thaaaaaaat so well (according to the fact, that before II World war even Stalin, while Russia was starving itself, gave 50 000 golden rubliai for communistic underground in Baltic States and destroying establishing of military union of Baltic States, such called Baltic Antant?….) if we talk not about theories, but historicxal facts, based on concrete scientific sources… So.. Do they pay – or you make it for free? :) :) Kindest regards from Baltic States,. wish more of peace, friendship and love to everybody in this crazy world :)
I’m tired with these “nonsenses”. Dear Eugenija (which by the way, is a Greek name and means noble), I am not able to read all of your “historical” post. If you want to go back then I’ll imform you that Kiev was builded by Russians during the 9th century and was the capital of Russia! Does it mean anything? Please give me a break!
I would like, however to find out what’s the meaning of your profile photo, which is exactly the same with Bea trix, above? I’m really curious!
Yes and Constantinople was Greek and the English came over from the continent, Palestine belonged to the Kanaánites and America to the Indians.
Today, the Crimea is Ukraïne and INVADED by Russians. That is agression!
I’m tired with these “nonsenses”. Dear Eugenija (which by the way, is a Greek name and means noble), I am not able to read all of your “historical” post. If you want to go back then I’ll imform you that Kiev was builded by Russians during the 9th century and was the capital of Russia! Does it mean anything? Please give me a break!
I would like, however to find out what’s the meaning of your profile photo, which is exactly the same with Bea trix, above? I’m really curious!
yes we should accept that Crmiea comes back home to Russia
yes we should accept that Crmiea comes back home to Russia
If there in Baltic, you hate Russia so much, then don’t…vote them in Eurovision ;) … but please give us a break!!!
If there in Baltic, you hate Russia so much, then don’t…vote them in Eurovision ;) … but please give us a break!!!
They hate the Russians as much as the Greeks do the Turcs. Do you love Turkey Nicholas?
So some people can not see the difference between the nationality and government/regime. Some people fail to understand that in Baltic there is a live memory of what happened before and the suspicion towards the regime of Russia (not a casual Russian). Because we were in the system, because we still have some people from that system (they are among us) we can see what are the things behind. And some of our western friends (or business people) don`t have this knowledge because they were in completely different environment.
Nice, Nikolaos, you ignore the facts AND the context, sometimes take some fact out of context and tend to know everything. According to your logic each country can invade what ever land around if at some point of history they ruled it.
I am out of here because there is no discussion happening. I`ll recheck this post in the evening and do hope that there will be more constructive dialog happening.
So some people can not see the difference between the nationality and government/regime. Some people fail to understand that in Baltic there is a live memory of what happened before and the suspicion towards the regime of Russia (not a casual Russian). Because we were in the system, because we still have some people from that system (they are among us) we can see what are the things behind. And some of our western friends (or business people) don`t have this knowledge because they were in completely different environment.
Nice, Nikolaos, you ignore the facts AND the context, sometimes take some fact out of context and tend to know everything. According to your logic each country can invade what ever land around if at some point of history they ruled it.
I am out of here because there is no discussion happening. I`ll recheck this post in the evening and do hope that there will be more constructive dialog happening.
Pity mr Putin cannot eradicate a few buildings in Brussels and Strasbourg :(
Pity mr Putin cannot eradicate a few buildings in Brussels and Strasbourg :(
If there in Baltic, you hate Russia so much, then don’t…vote them in Eurovision ;) … but please give us a break!!! As the guy bellow! Dear Carlos 83.1% participation!!!!!! What the heck are you talking about???
If there in Baltic, you hate Russia so much, then don’t…vote them in Eurovision ;) … but please give us a break!!! As the guy bellow! Dear Carlos 83.1% participation!!!!!! What the heck are you talking about???
The fact that Soviet leaders lived in relative poverty did not help anyone and did not save a single life… North Korea is poor – and that is useless. Pushing citizens of a foreign country below poverty line – is not our victory. That is proof of our weakness. Cold war – is devastating for both sides. More active measures must be taken.
The sanctions taken against Russia today 2014.03,14 – target the “scapegoats”. People who have no foreign assets and have no real “power” or influence in the situation in Russia. This shallow stance of the west will result it increased poverty for the whole eastern block. It will increased amount of victims and further social deterioration. No one will win for no one is competing over anything – just ignoring each other more and more. Active measures must be taken, while inertia in movement is still there.
Occupied regions suffer for decades during Cold war, and right after it’s over – we see the same forces standing aggressively in front of each other again, in the same place, with the same stance and the same methods. They had not been destroyed. They have not changed. Cold war – did nothing. It is useless. Active measures must be taken.
To evaluate events is complex as we may relate them to plenty of other situations * different ideologies and/or attitudes. So, first we should focus on the specific event: referendum in Crimea. For me it’s clear: EU should never recognize it. We should discuss international law, legitimacy of different national and regional powers but, there is also the legitimacy of the act itself. In a place under military occupation, without freedom to express different views, lack of ‘enough neutral’ control, etc… a referendum can’t be considered valid! If Russia was so sure about the will of the majority why didn’t gave an example how things should be done?!!
To evaluate events is complex as we may relate them to plenty of other situations * different ideologies and/or attitudes. So, first we should focus on the specific event: referendum in Crimea. For me it’s clear: EU should never recognize it. We should discuss international law, legitimacy of different national and regional powers but, there is also the legitimacy of the act itself. In a place under military occupation, without freedom to express different views, lack of ‘enough neutral’ control, etc… a referendum can’t be considered valid! If Russia was so sure about the will of the majority why didn’t gave an example how things should be done?!!
The saddest thing is that for fear of war, decent and normaly sane democrats, are willing to give anything to a brutal dictator. Like a battered wife who does anything because she does not want to be hit anymore.
Sometimes you must stand up against a bully and say loud and clear, NO!
Please remember that what we are aiming for is the best possible outcomes and LIVES , not death, for all the people of Ukraine, Crimea, and Russia [as well as Europe, Japan and the rest of the world…!]. It will be a good result if this crisis raises the levels of knowledge, awareness and understanding of history.
Nikolaos Sotirelis, about a 100 of people lost their lives during the crisis in the streets of Kiev, some 3 lost their lives in Donetsk. There’re a Russian army forces showing off in Crimea. The meaning of my current avatar is that I, as a Lithuanian, am following the events in Ukraine and wish peace, no more murdered people, in this country. I know how lies of politicians and generals fool other people into hating and killing. Lots of people had been losing their lives in Lithuania, which is my country, as well. Last time peaceful civilians had been killed by the Soviet military in Lithuania in 1991. Propaganda lies had been and continue to be spread about the events by some Russians and communists until this day. The murderers had not been punished. Russia and Belarus (which is protected by Russia) protects them. I am not naive to expect any quick fairness from the powerful to the insignificant nowadays.
Nikolaos Sotirelis, about a 100 of people lost their lives during the crisis in the streets of Kiev, some 3 lost their lives in Donetsk. There’re a Russian army forces showing off in Crimea. The meaning of my current avatar is that I, as a Lithuanian, am following the events in Ukraine and wish peace, no more murdered people, in this country. I know how lies of politicians and generals fool other people into hating and killing. Lots of people had been losing their lives in Lithuania, which is my country, as well. Last time peaceful civilians had been killed by the Soviet military in Lithuania in 1991. Propaganda lies had been and continue to be spread about the events by some Russians and communists until this day. The murderers had not been punished. Russia and Belarus (which is protected by Russia) protects them. I am not naive to expect any quick fairness from the powerful to the insignificant nowadays.
Crimea had not always been Russia, btw. :) It belonged to Crimean Tatars as well. Russia had promissed to Ukraine in a treaty of 1994, not to touch its borders with Crimea included, after Ukraine loses its nuclear weapons.
Crimea had not always been Russia, btw. :) It belonged to Crimean Tatars as well. Russia had promissed to Ukraine in a treaty of 1994, not to touch its borders with Crimea included, after Ukraine loses its nuclear weapons.
Dear Nikolaos, then check all FB of all Lithuanians, and You will find many of our people, who put same FB picture: Lithuanian and Ukrainian flags. As during Russian-Georgian war, ours put Georgian flags. It is our way to show respect and moral support to the country. By the way.. why not read historical sources, comme on? :P About names ;) I know, what is my name and what it means. By the way, my grandmother, who survived 2 world wars and 3 occupations, plus became a widow after the II World war.. She chose this Greek name for me. Knowing, what it means. If we talk about Greece and heritage of Greece and influence of Greece into the world culture or names. Point is, that we talk not about Grrece.. And hating nations or countries, it is not my point of view or point of view of any civilized human being. Let me share something. Sapienti sat.. (it was in Latin, just to know). And, ladies and gentlemen: impossigle discuss, if people do not want to listen, they just scream or hate or personalize discussions… It has no end, it gives no outcomes, unfortunately.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=611216922288264&set=a.601962663213690.1073741827.601953909881232&type=1&theater
Dear Nikolaos, then check all FB of all Lithuanians, and You will find many of our people, who put same FB picture: Lithuanian and Ukrainian flags. As during Russian-Georgian war, ours put Georgian flags. It is our way to show respect and moral support to the country. By the way.. why not read historical sources, comme on? :P About names ;) I know, what is my name and what it means. By the way, my grandmother, who survived 2 world wars and 3 occupations, plus became a widow after the II World war.. She chose this Greek name for me. Knowing, what it means. If we talk about Greece and heritage of Greece and influence of Greece into the world culture or names. Point is, that we talk not about Grrece.. And hating nations or countries, it is not my point of view or point of view of any civilized human being. Let me share something. Sapienti sat.. (it was in Latin, just to know). And, ladies and gentlemen: impossigle discuss, if people do not want to listen, they just scream or hate or personalize discussions… It has no end, it gives no outcomes, unfortunately.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=611216922288264&set=a.601962663213690.1073741827.601953909881232&type=1&theater
Dear Eugenija
My point based on scientific analysis on the Crimean crisis here https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/03/17/crimea-referendum/#comment-100274 .
I can understand your disgust regarding Russia since it represents for you what the Ottoman empire and Turkey represent for us. Please, try to remove sentimental approaches in international affairs; they constitute (100% guarantee) the absolute path to conflict and open war.
What I suggest (and my suggestion is relevent to Nikolaos Sotirelis and others in this forum) is to understand what ancient Greeks got as historic experinece since Thucydides Pelloponesian War (5th century BC): abiding by commonly agreeed/settled principles and rules of law is better than recourse to violence.
The inetrnational players usually forget this principle; during the Cold War, they preserved it at the center of the conflict (namely Europe and to some extend America) but they pushed it to the limits at the periphery (prominent conflicts Vietnam 1955-1975 and Afganistan1979-1989 + the Middle East; prominent support to democracy and similar values the Latin American dictatorships (1960s-1980s), apartheid in S.Africa as well as Czechoslovakia 1968, Hungary 1956 and Greece 1967-74).
Now, the one ex-superpower copies the other in patterns to evade international
law and order having in mind to secure its own sphere of influence and security based on old but worthy for all participants hidden agreements: Yalta 1945 + the Bush-Gorbatshev 1988 agreement that paved the way to the re-unification of Germany and the liberation of the WTO countries from the soviet era are still valid for at least the Russian Federation. Obama is smart enough to understand that engagement to a new cold war is not to the benefit of the USA nor Russia. However, he understands that both have an emerging power to cope with: the 4th Reich. The best way to cope with is to create controlable cool “conflicts” that will lead to more economic problems in Europe. Suggestion: Europe must strike a deal with Russia in all levels: economic-political-strategic. Otherwise, isntability and “peripheral” conflicts may lead to a more autocratic and strong Russian regime, to the dissolution of the euro-zone (starting from Greece) and to a new division of Europe between the USA and Russia. The latter must worry the Baltics more than Greece, since we are not going to change camp!
Yours sincerely,
George Yiannitsiotis, PhD
Athens, GREECE
Europe can not do much..we can not risk an open war with them.. ideally Ukraine should deal with the issue on its own, and decide its future alone..just like Czechoslovakia did, with no meddling from foreign powers..if it is to break up, then it should do so democratically and peacefully..Sadly for Ukraine, it lies in a very geopolitical and economically strategic location and that is impossible.. Russia will meddle because it has kept its post war mentality.. Europe can only place sanctions on Russian and Ukrainian pro-Russian politicians at the moment and that it should be doing..If this escalates to full war, then God bless us all.. we should avoid conflict at all costs..
Europe can not do much..we can not risk an open war with them.. ideally Ukraine should deal with the issue on its own, and decide its future alone..just like Czechoslovakia did, with no meddling from foreign powers..if it is to break up, then it should do so democratically and peacefully..Sadly for Ukraine, it lies in a very geopolitical and economically strategic location and that is impossible.. Russia will meddle because it has kept its post war mentality.. Europe can only place sanctions on Russian and Ukrainian pro-Russian politicians at the moment and that it should be doing..If this escalates to full war, then God bless us all.. we should avoid conflict at all costs..
Wish putin was leading europe and not traitors
Then why the fuck don’t you go and live there, idiot!
because he is better than Obama and his Brussels stooges and if you had a choice of voting for someone similar in wherever you live, you won’t because you are brain washed dick head!
agreed with you Malcolm on both
disappointed in the EU and the USA, this just shows how democratic the west is, …. far from in another words. Democracy is about the word of the people, and these people in Crimea have voted. Let them go and join Russia.
Again the EU and USA show how corrupt the west is, and I am sad to see what our leaders are doing. This is not about the people anymore it is about the gas, money, and probs reasons we don’t know off that they care about. Shame on you EU and USA!
I support the people of Crimea, they voted, they want something, they have chosen their path, their future. let them be, those people voted not those lazy and unknowing so called leaders of the EU. Let the people decide!
Talk what ever you wish, Nikolaos, but don’t spread hate to nations and people, Nikolaos. And don’t call people Nazis or racist without a reason, Nikolaos. Better vote for songs, not countries, in Eurovision, Nikolaos, And you better don’t guess what I or other Baltic people – who haven’t talked about hating something here – hate, Nikolaos, ’cause your guesses are wrong, Nikolaos. I have a question, Nikolaos: do you hate Germany, Nikolaos? Every single German person and thing? If you don’t hate Germany, Nikolaos, when let me criticize what Russian politicians and army does and what some other Russians say, Nikolaos; and don’t say that I hate Russia, just because of that I don’t agree with you about it, Nikolaos. And don’t tell me or other Lithuanians to give you a break, Nikolaos, because I am not telling you or other people to give me a break when they have something to say to me or others, Nikolaos. What does the name “Nikolaos” mean in Greek, Nikolaos? I love pictures of Greece, some Greek music, some Greek movies, some Greek food, some ancient Greek philossophy, the look of the Greek letters and the sound of the Greek language. So don’t tell I hate Greece either, Nikolaos. Peace.
Νικόλαος = νίκη (victory) +λαός (people)
As you may understand, he stands for the people in Ταυρίς (Tauris) who decided to join the Russian Federation. Ταυρίς is the ancient Greek name of Crimea. Συμφερόπολη, Σεβαστούπολη and many other cities of the peninsula kept their ancient Greek names till now!
Bea trix don’t be such a hater! Open your eyes, your heart and your mind!
I simply ask from EU to respect Crimeans wish, as it did with Lithuania on the past!
I think part of the blame has to encourage revolt Cee Ukraine without considering the consequences that could deribar. The Cee to make a decision take days to agree different turn while Minister Putin decides he only has anticipated and before Ukraine becomes part of Cee, not least because in that case piesa NATO could be installed without problems. What kind of European politicians have.?
No, it is illegal and an insult to intelligence, Adolf Hilter did exactly the same and we swore we wouldn’t allow this sort of behaviour and law breaking even again, NATO must send a strong and united message and step up sanctions that actually hurt and move it’s assets to protect the boarders as a message to go no further
the Crimean referendum is illegal and done under the presence of an invading army, there is without doubt enough solid evidence to suggest the voting was rigged, it need to be redone under United Nations peace keepers to hold any legitimacy
Could this meeting in November be the reason the USA is losing its power and making them crazy enough to put an end to a deal they have no interests in seeing take place?
Think about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVTTvmCiDkg
Nikolaos Sotirelis, thank you for hating me and calling me a hater therefore. ;) You are worthy of a “lovely” name of a hater yourself.
And the latest news is, retired Israeli Mossad officers were in Kiev directing the rioters who took over in the Ukraine coup. Who paid their wages?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDaTWlBELxY
Wonder why? Couldn’t have anything to do with Iran could it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_the_Baltic_states_(1940)
Dear Bea trix once more you’re mistaken. I like you a lot! You have opinion and that’s good for your age. You have to work a little bit the abillity to judje people and to find true arguments to stand for your opinion. I can excuse your absoluteness because it suits with the youth, but you should be more respectfull. The advice to open your mind and special your heart, after you called me many times lier and hater, I think isn’t compairable. And since you asked before my name means victory of people. Farewell, I wish you the best :)
LOL, tell me how old I am. Gonna guess?
I see that Crimea is gonna be Russia for some time now. I see that most of inhabitants there speak Russian or are Russians, so they could have voted for joining Russia in this situation when Ukraine is poor and weak even if there would have really been a fair referendum about it. Lets see if the Russians will really enjoy their life in Russia. So far so I’ve read that one Ukrainian had been shot to the leg by a Russian military person and one person have been killed in Crimea today, after Putin told that Crimea was already Russia and the Russian military there felt it was legitimate to enter the Ukrainian military entities with Ukrainian citizens in Crimea. Quick, “strong”, “moral”, “human”. Stay proud of Russia, lovers. :D
That’s more like it. (y) Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps indead they will not enjoy their life in Russia. But even so this will be their choice. And that’s importand. On the other hand to protect the minorities’ rights or even lives, is a duty for the international community as well for EU too! Of course that includes the Russian minority in Ukrain!
For the sake of fucks, since when as a minority is called a group of military personal and their families who are living and working abroad for a fixed time of period? It is easy to jump over the age while you are not able to have at least a single contrargument. I am not going into ad hominem disput, how ever I do wish of other people to sit for a while and think: if it is legal to any country visitors to vote in the “referendum” then what can stop an army invading your country and voting themselves?
Wow some real ignorant stupidity in here, when 123% of a population vote it’s is not legitimate where else in the world would that be accepted? We know from polls in the past decade held each year that Russia speaking Ukrainians considered Ukraine as the motherland with the polls sometime exceeding 75% I can’t post images here?… We also know that before Russia’s invasions Russian speakers were against ties to Moscow. These people were soon beaten of the streets when Russia invaded to protect there Russian speakers from a peaceful Crimea,
We also know the Tatars which make up 20% boycotted, when they went to the polling stations they estimated that only 30%!of the population voted,
We also know that Russia flooded the country with civilian activists which tore down Ukrainian flags claiming to be Ukrainian when they was in fact from Moscow, I can’t post images again…
We also knw that the 25.000 Russian soldiers based in Crimea was allowed to vote including Russian citizens seriously? WTF!… We also know that the Crimean leader was in bed with Moscow allowing all this and he was the one who called for the illegal invasion and breaking of United Nations laws, this is not 1938 or is it?
We also know Russian media reporter also stated the election were rigged and most likely Russia flooded the country with voters
It is illegal first and for most, secondly only Ukraine government can call a referendum if the people protest in large numbers up until the illegal invasion and annexation they was perfectly happy living under Ukrainian rule, it’s a farce the world knows it and it should be reheard under United Nations peacekeeping force not down the barrel of a gun while flooded with Russian troops and civilians from Russia voting
This is exactly how hitler annexed countries pre WWII and the world is not being to stand for it in this day and age
Listen to the people of Ukraine and what they want, a government serves it’s people END OFF
Can you please tell us why you cannot put up any information to support what you write? Or, are we supposed to take your word for it? If all happened as you tell us, was nothing at all written about it and no demonstrations filmed to show it happening? Sounds very peculiar to me. give us a break.
The Ukrainian set up was just that. A bunch of anarchists who walked into Kiev and thought it was going to be easy because they were told the West was paying them off. This group they thought would back them up and it would be over in a month. But that didn’t happen did it. Putin saw them coming. In a democracy you wait for a general election and oust the people you don’t want out at that time. This was a pustch or a coup and we are not as daft as you thought us. The world has its eye on the cameras and the spooks were listening to every word your funders were saying. All brought on by the wonders of the States and their surveillance.
What the EU and us tax payers don’t need is another poverty stricken country that house these anarchist infiltrating our ‘assumed’ democratic countries and find ourselves having to hold back the fascists they have put in power, whilst we foot the bill.
Here is a UK MP telling it like it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXRCW3vxjk
The’s too much at stake, natural gas to begin with. Everything related with Russian aggresion It will end soon, forget Ukraine, forget Crimea, Germany will make it sure that pipeline will never runs dry.
Before someone has any kind of opinion about what is really happening in Ukraine, is proper to aware of all the objective clues. The map with the 2010 presidential ellections, might help, to get an idea. Maybe it means nothing, maybe a lot… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%94%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80_2010_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85-en.png
Here is a German who has her finger on the pulse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGhIl-qV9FI
If we do some statistics on history we are probably next to world war 3.
I would not even be surprised if world war 3 has already started, In 1939 October no one would have through that they were in the start of world war 2 when Germany first went into Poland
Does any Person out there,from any country, with any religion, believe that the TODAYS Eu, Usa( Nato), or Russia are acting to protect “democracy” or people? THE ONLY WHAT THEY PROTECT IS THEIR INTERESTS , no matter how many peoples lives it costs….
EU was a good idea, the new Eu has nothing to do with morality what they preach or real solidarity, the new eu ect. it has solidarity with the banks only. You will see Yourself… Germany wants ΑLL Ukraine into the EU to use its already ready pipelines AND Depots (WITHOUT any cost to build new ones somewhere far away-Ukraine is next to Poland then straight to Germany, or through Slovenia,Austria or Tsechia..= the cheapeast way to keep their german industry products cheap and its exports high), and then connect this ready Ukranian pipelines from Crimeas port with some new pipelines to Georgia…. they need Crimea, this is why they do not accept the referendum.
Usa wants to expand Nato, and make reality the geostrategy advisor of Usa Bresinski’s theory: read his book:”Τhe Great Chessboard” all planet should be in Nato and Usa should be the only power, according to his theory.
Russia knows all this, and tries to protect its own interest , right outside of its borders.
History repaids it self, that is why outside of the Dachau Nazis concentration camp ( WW2) it is a monument : ” NEVER AGAIN”……but people dont learn history…so they “dont remember” what “never again” means….
Never again, in a practical way could be: Think twice and be sceptical when a country , specialy with no relation with your culture, wants to act like your “savior” , because maybe it will bring you to your knees…( with new loans they give you, your country will finance projects according to THEIR interests, their companies will build this project and make billions, while you the people will pay for all this, and after they will put you to your knees….thats their method worldwide, google it..and they will take all Ukranian state-property for pinuts…google it how they privatize also the WATER) I hope i am wrong…and i wish the citizens in Ukraine will be smart enough not to believe the “saviors”, and not fall in the very methodical trap, that some creedy countries who despertly needs your pipelines for their industries and exports, planed for You years ago…peace for everyone
I am afraid that there is a kind of sensorship in this page. Especially when our replies to comments are not agreable to the agitators of the site!
(I don’t expect to see it published; time to do something more productive than to fight “democratic sensorship” under EU auspices!!
Hi George,
Which of your comments have been censored? As far as we can tell, all of the comments you submitted have been published. There is sometimes a delay in the comments appearing because our website cache takes a bit of time to update, but this isn’t censorship.
Hoping that technical fault made my reply to Debby Teusink disappear from screen ( https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2014/03/17/crimea-referendum/#comment-101554 ) and not human action, I retreat the above comment.
Reading all these replies and taking an interest to both sides of the story it looks like there are many people who are Russophobic. I do not blame these people as it has been ingrained over decades of a glorious motherland under the shadow of communist rule. However, how can the west stand there and support a US backed coup in a sovereign nation just because the former president was leaning more to Russia. Is it that EU and NATO countries are no longer run by their own governments but are puppets to the US and multi-national conglomerates who make money out of crisis.
Sure President Putin is ex-KGB and thus portrays a strong stance. Yes, Russia has its own interests of self-preservation but are we saying the US does not. Yes, communism did not work as we saw its leaders living in lovely houses while the populous lived in cramped flats. But does democracy and free trade work? We see austerity in many countries, businesses failing and the gap between the rich and poor widening. How many times are you caught on CCTV, how many of your telephone calls and emails recorded etc etc. Are there any real civil liberties in the west any more. Yes, Russia invaded Chechnya, and Georgia but also the US has invaded countries to protect its interests. The US also has backed coups throughout the world to destabilise countries and regions for its own ends.
After the breakup of the Soviet Union NATO agreed not to spread eastwards but it has. This is provocation in itself. I think the Ukraine was the last straw especially as the US sanctioned a coup putting in place a neo-Nazi regime who threatened the Russian language, speakers and ethnic Russians as well as Jews. Putin of course responded to this. OK not just to protect the people but Russia’s interests too.
The Crimea is part of Russia and has been for centuries. 70% of the population is ethnic Russians or Russian speakers. So when a puppet government is put in place that threatens them and their future of course they are worried and want to return to being part of Russia. Russian forces have always been in the Crimea so there was no invasion and the US or EU could not back up their claims that there was.
At the end of the day all the US and EU are doing is pushing Russia closer to China and Asia. As for US stating that the EU should become more reliant on their own gas through fraking we only need to look at the US where they are having problems with this (4 states complaining of water pollution due to fracking – posted in USA today).
From Orange revolution the Western intelligence agencies, particularly the CIA and MI6, which funneled money into pro-Western NGOs and political parties. The US and EU approach with democracy demands and peaceful solutions is only covering the precise goal of US efforts is to shift political power into the hands of their nazi-puppets. There is nothing new that US is again on the side of anti-Semites and fascists in Ukraine due its geo-strategic interests. However any government in Ukraine has the same framework as the present one such as nonexistent real hope of EU inclusion, a dependence on Moscow for energy and an integrated economy with Russia. The country is also clear divided to toward Russia oriented eastern Ukraine whose residents speak Russian and are Russian Orthodox and to toward Europe oriented western Ukraine whose residents and speak their own dialect. The tension between the regions is real, and heavy pro-EU pressure could split the country which on the other hand might be not so bad outcome. Let’s hope that whatever way Ukrainians choose they can make it in future without interference from abroad. More in Ukraine’s Would-be Coup As New Example About US Gangsterism – http://arirusila.wordpress.com/2014/02/19/ukraines-would-be-coup-as-new-example-about-us-gangsterism/
In my opinion the only practical peaceful way to save Ukraine’s Potemkinin villages as independent united state – Crimea excluded – is that the political elites from moderate opposition parties now ruling in Kiev and Party of regions plus other parties from ousted government as well oligarchs behind them join their forces to slam The Right Sector and similar groups down. One possible way of preserving territorial integrity would be decentralization — giving more autonomy to the different regions of Ukraine. Although federalization is seen in Kiev and western Ukraine as a step toward ultimate partition, it could in fact help hold Ukraine together. (P.S: More in “Farewell Ukrainian Independency And Democracy” – http://arirusila.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/farewell-ukrainian
The real fundamental conflict in Ukraine between ordinary citizens and political elite. The main weakness of the uprising in Ukraine has been the absence of an independent movement of the working class. The only real alternative to the rule of the oligarchs might be oldfashion Socialism. In Ukraine the banks and the industries should be nationalised and more they should be in the hands of the working class. Such a programme could cut across all differences between East and West and it would unite all the working people against the political elite. The confiscation of all the wealth of oligarchs would mean that the loot would be returned to the people of Ukraine from who it was robbed. This could also finance the reconstruction of Ukraine without IMF or EU austerity measures. on the basis of a democratically planned socialist economy. Unfortunately I estimate that this kind of progress is at least as big utopia than Ukraine’s EU membership although better one. (P.S: More in “Farewell Ukrainian Independency And Democracy” – http://arirusila.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/farewell-ukrainian-independency-and-democracy/ )
Yes, the second cold war has already begun. Poor Ukrainians!
This is the result of 25 years of humiliating all the ex socialist countries.
Who’s to blame for strengthen Europe’s Only Natural Enemy, economic and military force ?
It will be strenghtened through Agenda 21, see my blog johnsunolb.bliogspot.com.au
I think it important to read through this post from the Guardian newspaper comments page. It lays it out so much better than I can. This is what is going on under our noses but behind our backs. The people that pay the money to keep this show on the road are being sold out.
MelKelly kenlinuk
26 March 2014 9:18pm
Recommend
226
America has huge trade deficit with EU – America bankrupt
America creates crisis in Ukraine
EU backs American interference and claims it’s all legal for America to pay thugs to riot
EU giving Ukraine rioters 11 billion Euros – did they give London rioters money – no they got jailed
EU signs deal with Ukraine – Ukraine got 149 billion euros debt – that EU will transfer to EU taxpayers
EU then persuades Ukraine to sell all state assets and outsource all public sector contracts
EU signs “trade deal” with America that lets America not only flood Europe with products currently deemed unsafe by EU standards…
EU “trade deal” with America allows American Corporations to take over “outsourced” public sector contracts in Ukraine
American corporations then control Ukriane’s borders with Russia
…as well as our NHS, our police, our fire services, our prisons, passposrt office…anything that is outsourced
Then America use this “trade agreement” to steal Russias gas market in the EU….
All this because America is bankrupt
America is bankrupt of money , bankrupt of democracy, bankrupt of morals or values…
America is a war mongering nation – currently disrupting peace in Europe
We have traded peacefully with Russia for years – now America wants that to come to and end ..and EU leaders are colluding with America to try to destabalise Russias economy – just because America is bankrupt
This dangerous trade agreement between the EU and America (which EU leaders hope to sign before end of this year) – is dangerous to us all
As George Monbiot warns in the Guardian
“This transatlantic trade deal is a full-frontal assault on democracy –
Brussels has kept quiet about a treaty that would let rapacious companies subvert our laws, rights and national sovereignty”
It’s not just Brussels keeping quiet – it is Cameron, Clegg and Milliband – because they have an all-party agreement to sell us all out – just to save America from Bankrupsy
This trade deal is a threat to us all – and a threat to peace in Europe
No surprise when NATO are “wars are us”
Time we get out the EU – before this “trade agreement” with the America sells us all down the river – which is why Cameron, Clegg and Milliband all refuse to give us an EU referendum now
Milliband states he will only give us a referendum if we transfer more power to Europe
Milliband will not give a referendum if he transfers power to America-
Labour, Tories and LIberals don’t want to talk about this trade deal before the EU elections – because they know once we find out we would never vote for any of these 3 parties in the upcoming EU elections
If you want to vote for parties of war at the EU elections then vote for the Big 3 parties who want to sell us all out (SNP also agree)
If you want peace in Europe – vote for a party that Opposes the proposed EU-US trade agreement
This is the way imperialists fight their wars now – economic/business wars.
If these trade deals go through it will be the ultimate corporate coup d’etat.
Enlightenment is paramount to democracy.
150% voters in Sevastopol – totally legit
neo-nazi “observers” said referendum was “totally legit”
http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.ro/2014/03/pro-russian-extremists-observe.html
This is doubly funny considering Putin is crying that ‘evil nazis” are now running Ukraine and he is *so* worried about the poor german people..er..i mean sorry russian people. And of course as a result , “uncle” Putin needs to come and “save” the poor germans by annexing Sudetenland..er..i mean sorry, those poor russians by annexing Crimea.
You can guess the other similarities yourselves.
YES the USA are hypocrites when they complain.
And YES some EU members ( hello, UK ) are ALSO hypocrites and SHOULD be bashed for invading Iraq.
But that does not mean we should give Putin a carte blanche on the reasoning: “Hey we do it, so Putin should be allowed too, lol”.
@ Limbidis Arian:
Please, do give the EU citizen more respect for their intelligence than this nonsense. Many people in my country would take the word of Putin far more than those mixed up in the Ukraine coup. It was quite obviously a US-EU funded and ignited overthrow of an elected government. The phone call between V. Nuland and her colleague established that. And the people of my country in particular are sick to death of fighting, dying and being maimed for life to fight with those expansionists who are using them as pawns. It is of no benefit to us as a nation, and believe me, will be of no benefit for the ordinary Ukrainian people. You, my friend, are being used by Corporate watchers to fund the massive debt they are in.
Barroso and . . . : “Sanctions are not retaliations, but they are incentives”
Obama; “Russia is a ”Regional power” “, and the “Regional power” is not worthy “touching”.
what are these people talking about??
a wrong starting always leads to wrong ending! the EU and US will get more worse and worse, unless otherwise they systematically keep quiet!!!! i am an ethiopian and i am writing responses because my country has been a victim of Obama at the 67th UN Summit. Obama (and george w. bush from behind) had committed a crime, and they made us hear their dirty compliments, the world should cooperate not to be at the advantage of these unsatisfied elites. thank you for letting me say my feelings!!!!
Could you kindly explain how Ethiopia has been a victim of Obama and the 67th UN General Assemply Summit? Any reference links to documents would help.
@Catherine Benning
Sorry but there are only speculations. A big plot created around less related with Ukraine premises. The US trade deficit is not the reason behind Crimea annexation to Russian Federation. It is energy related conflict obviously, but US involvement in the crises is over rated. Germany’s addiction to russian gas is the issue here. Someone decided that Ukraine has to become “european” overnight, thinking that Russia will let go the “goodies” just for the “trade with Europe” sake. Oh well, here the results.
I think that this could be the start of world war 3. johnsunolb.blogspot.com.au
Here are the REAL Reasons for the current Crisis in East-Europe , selfevident for anyone who has the slightest historical and geopolitical Knowledge : Trans-atlantic , anglosaxon Forces and their Financial Overlords attempting at any Cost to prevent EUROPE to be FREE and INDEPENDANT :http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2014/03/30/us-war-plan-for-europe-and-russia/
i think that this who scenario in Ukraine could get out of hand it not handeled with Kit Gloves
I don t even get the point why everyone wants to be independent of Russian gas,as Russia and my country could never get involved in a conflict ,if it wasn t for nato.We have no ressources,we have no common cultural background,we ain t even a “brother country” like Ukraine to Russia,we don t have russian minorities,when it comes to militery we ain t a threat either so Russia would never need to invade my country.There is absolutly no point for Germany to stay in Nato as it will just never have a conflict with Russia.The only reason how those two countries could get into a conflict ,would be over a nato member.So from a German point of view the only Reason for a potential conflict with Russia is Nato itself.So it s not securing peace but is a potential reason for a conflict.
It s easy for Americans and British to “smacktalk” the Russians,as they r sitting save on their islands,but yeah it s just the Germans and Polish…using them as cannon fodder against the Russians is most likely legit in Anglo-American minds…
I actually like the Russians for their attitude.Seen intervies from John Mccain complaining that Russians don t care for US superpower blabla.(allways thougth this guy suffers from dementia).They act exactly as i would want the Europeans to act.They re like.”We re Russians,we have nuclears,we do as we like.Get used to it US!”
While ALL european nations became a shadow of their former greatness and turned in uneducated half Americans,thinking coke,mcdonalds and starbucks is a “culturel” import,while their youngsters have Barney Stinson as their idol and thinking the meaining of life is laying 500 women or so…Europe lost all of its conservative values and its local cultures.For the youngsters in Russia the meaning of life is making 3-4 babies work hard,love your wife and figth for their country if necessary.The “mother homeland” statue in Wolgograd endet up rigth picking its sword in the direction of the barbarians.
@Alex
Check the both ends of Europe (W-E) and pick the one that you want your kids to live in. And please name a good helpful thing that Russia ever did for the eastern end, one only.
Oh thanks god, we got a little relief, because the US and EU forgot South-Sudan, Mali, and Central Africa and these countries are at peace now, for ten days!
I am from Kazakhstan….I m actually planing to do my masters in Russia and will probably stay there.The population there ain t as rich (IMO not yet) as here but at least they have their own policy.I m sick of Germans beeing in Afghanistan.I mean they blew up the towers in ny…so what?Is new york Germany?It s like some f****d up occupation policy.Yanks are just as Napoleon.Defeat the Prussians first and then send em against the Russians,Afghanis whoever…
Land of the free…my a**
Europeans living in their little and fixed land are supposed to be aggressive to the rest of the world!!
Would like to know what people in those countries think about the russians.My dad told me the so called “shorawi” were pretty respected.How do people think about the Russians these days?
Russia’s annexation of the Crimea should probably not be considered as a major threat towards Europe.
Both European and American politicians are talking about revaluating the relationship towards Russia, which makes good sense although it may turn out to be difficult, unless one can come to a better understanding of the way the Russian civilization has been constructed.
The Russian area has throughout history been invaded many times both by civilized neighbours – some of them from Europe – and by less civilized nomadic people, and such changing circumstances may have led towards the construction of a civilization in the form of a large scale emergency organization, which may resemble the security organizations that one finds in many smaller private as well as public units.
I have elsewhere described the European civilization as a large scale process organization and the USA as a large scale project organization with European cultural roots.
Since the Russian civilization also incorporates much European culture, then it may perhaps be seen as a third member of the family and as an emergency organization, which may possibly be complementary to both the European process organization and the American project organization.
The global world underwent a lot of painful reworking during the twentieth century, and it does not seem to have found a stable order yet.
Such an order may better be founded on a principle of complementarity rather than on a principle of conformity, but that will require mutual understanding and respect for civilizational differences.
Europe may have to learn to calculate the Russian security designs and possibly see Russia as an agent, that can play a meaningful role in the global world.
One may perhaps see the Russian construction as resting on a principle of “probable necessity”, which means that Russia will act, if it finds it probable that changes in circumstances tend to make it necessary.
There are large minorities of Russian speaking people living in for instance the Baltic countries, and it may in that connection be quite important to give Russians the impression, that it will probably not be necessary to intervene on their behalf.
The same will be the case for Ukraine, but one may have to question whether it will be an advantage to give the part of the country east of the Dnepr-valley a different status or even let it become Russian, if that is what the people living there may want.
The Dnepr-valley may thus be conditioning a somewhat homogeneous Ukrainian culture.
The landscape around the rivers Don, Volga and Ural may on the other hand be conditioning the Russian civilization, and one may perhaps see the area around Ob, Jenisej and Lena as part of a landscape of similar character, even though they are flowing in the opposite direction.
The principle of “probable necessity” can perhaps even be attributed to the way these rivers flow, although this may seem like fiction.
If Europe is interested in letting Ukraine become a member of the union, then it may be an advantage to evolve a more flexible form of membership.
That will also be an advantage in connection with countries like for instance Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Norway and Switzerland, and it may help to accommodate discussions in for instance England and Scotland.
The key to that may be to develop a strategy of negotiated coordination to replace the centralizing rules of conformity and uniformity, that the union has been constructed around so far.
European flexibility may generally be a way to accommodate Russian security designs, but it is important that such flexibility is following some general principles in stead of being arbitrary.
Brilliant Vladmir Putin is waiting for a response for the letter he sent to the 18 European countries! How could they respond to his question?
NO WAY Crimea is going to belong to Russia , and that’s a fact! The way of doing the invasion of the Crimean peninsula is remembering as of the way of “doing business” with the communists! “The problem” with the communist is that they will remain anonymous! They are too blind to see beyond the communism and because of that they had already lost!
Oh World!
Please change the “Papers” and every EVIL will change!!!
The world should avoid the US-Dollar, England-POUND, EURO—which are distributed through out the world by the names of Aid, Loans, and unfair transactions. “Aiding ” countries are Aiding themselves, by attaching their “Papers” into our Endeavors, Sweats, Efforts and Development. The Evils are busy publishing their currencies illegally… and delivering Billions of US-Dollars, Billions of Pounds and Billions of Euros to countries which have created attractive treasures. This is how they blood suck!!
Two Russian bombers (at sub-sonic speed) visited targets in Denmark, England and Netherlands; and these European countries defied the news by saying they chased the Russian bombers (which were comfortably flying @ sub-sonic speed) by their F-** interceptor jet aircraft (which fly @ super-sonic speed)! For something to be chased, it should have a higher speed than the chaser; Oh Europe, always lying!! Lying like Niel-Armstrong, who cheated the world; saying he together with his two colleagues landed on the unknown surface of the moon; i think for a flying object some properly prepared grounding station is a must, but the Apollo** landed on the moon, and it flew back to the earth in a place where there are no ground support facilities! Historic lie!!! That is why it is believed there is no another landing on the surface of the moon, since then. And now the stated EU countries are telling us a slowly flying Bomber air craft being chased by a super-sonic jet. . . . they should think before they speak!
Yes.
I am too much pleased to hear Russia getting a 400 billion cubic metre deal with China, god knows what to do!! I am pleased the same like innocent Vladmir Putin will be pleased this time!!!
Mr. Sergey Lavrov will be visiting my country Ethiopia-just today! Ethiopia is the second most populous country in Africa, which had had a 400-year sympathetic relationships with Russia. 80-Million of our people is so glad to hear the arrival of Lavrov, a foreign minister of the biggest country in the world (Russia), the man of the people who proposed humanity (socialism) to the world; even though there are some limitations to the practicability of this ideology.
Well they wanted it… dont blame the game if you cant play it right ? Because thats whats Putins seems to cry about.
I though EU was peace?
NO WAY PEOPLE
The US wants a weak EU, so yeah, go ahead with the Cold War, that’s just gotta do it.
Let’s leave NATO NOW !!!
Good relations in every level is the best interest of E.U.
How about Turkey that invaded Cyprus in 1974 killing a lot of innocent people and occupying half of CYPRUS!!!!!! This is Unacceptable people!!! Why does Europe don’t give a f*** what’s going on here??? WHY??? CYPRUS is also part of European Union!!! Is it because Europe has a lot more of interests from Turkey and much less from Cyprus!!! Why its not a big deal like Europe with Russia right now!!! Although it not the same because Russia tries to protect Russian-Speakers from Ukraine-Nazis that spread destruction and killing and most importantly it feels the threat of NATO and USA in their borders which has a serious logic to take these measures!!!!
this is what you should expline us… not to ask us!…
It has already started, New Cold War was shaping up since the Yugoslavian Civil War, Ukraine crisis will be very decisive in this.
Phillipe juvin is both correct and incorrect in his sassessment. Crimea was already semi autonomous, in much the same way that Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Australia are semi autonomous from England. So the use of his examples of Germans living in Poland is erroneous at best and deliberately misleading at worst. The e.u had, and still has no justification in not recognizing Crimea’s decision to cede to Russia. Crimea had a referendum and made a choice. Was the referendum squewed? Most probably. However, when you balance our antics in the establishment of a govt in Afghanistan against those of Russia in crimea, I think the balance of justification lies in favour of Russia
I don’t think a new Cold war is a good idea TBH.
Which “cold war”, in Ukraine it is already a very hot war!!
The “EU” is run by Wall Street bankers, they “EU” is just the US’s pawn, and thats what is happening, Europe is PAWNING itself to serve American interests, again.
wrong question and very biased…… who did first step ? so…Is Russia about to begin a “New Cold war” with European counrties..? See Council of Europe and all treaties Russia signed…
NO! Let us NOT! Stop the comedy!
Cold wars only lead to great benefits to very corrupt governments to have them align with the interested paying party. Once the corrupt “aid cycle” is started it takes decades to stop and reverse it.
Look at Africa and all the corrupt “for life” governments that started with “political aid” to the wrong parties during the previous “cold war”!
Let us NOT forget history!
Let us NOT repeat it!
It is still very recent and with us!!!
.
The EU gets a Nobel Peace prize and then immediately start’s a war with Russia in Ukraine and sets off another cold war with sanctions.
Anyone want to claim the EU getting the peace prize was not a bad joke ?
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/10/13/eus-winning-the-nobel-peace-prize-widely-seen-as-a-tasteless-joke/
EU is a US driven unelected bunch of warmongers and democracy killers .
I alwaya get a kick of russian apologism. It would be funny. If it wasnt so sad.
Are you sure that EU starts war? I don’t think so. Did EU moved their troops into Russia territory? Did EU occupied Crimea? This is Russia who started the war with entire World, not EU only. Wake up and stop trolling :)
How about Turkey that invaded Cyprus in 1974 killing a lot of innocent people and occupying half of CYPRUS!!!!!! This is Unacceptable people!!! Why does Europe don’t give a f*** what’s going on here??? WHY??? CYPRUS is also part of European Union!!! Is it because Europe has a lot more of interests from Turkey and much less from Cyprus!!! Why its not a big deal like Europe with Russia right now!!! Although it not the same because Russia tries to protect Russian-Speakers from Ukraine-Nazis that spread destruction and killing and most importantly it feels the threat of NATO and USA in their borders which has a serious logic to take these measures!!!!
Only two communist countries can stand against imperialists _China and Russia
not really ..but the US loves to walk the edge of neuclear war, and NATO bindes most european countrys to follow them like lemmings
Are why is NATO always so eager to label someone as the bad guy.
If EU is strong ,why are you waiting for the instructions of US
first of hole. the countries are produsing they anemyes.
EU together with the US seem to push for the war, yes. Problem is that EU doesnt seem to have a say in a matter. Is it because we have American troops, permanently stationed in our territory ?
It would be bad for both.only USA will win.
The USA wants a new cold war, not the EU !
Our 3nd most commented debate of 2014.have we realised the economic outcome of the new cold war with Russia?
What is the choice? Letting Russia continuing to annexe easter UKR cities like Crimea ? Splitt the Country into a half ujnd further? Oh forgot the Civilian airlines who has been shoot down …? For me the European Union should stay united with a single Army!
Actually, it was Russia, which created a Warm War with a border state (or two), who kicked off this new era of maneuvering and deceit.
You state it correctly: the EU STARTED this whole conflict.
… EU is servant of USA and NATO?!
why Russia take care about russians in Ukraine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXVC_nE1bfE
That depends only on Putin! But if Putin is starting the Cold War again (and it is a clear indication he wants to, i still hope we can bankrupt Russia, so far so good) the EU has no other alternative. Afterall, Cold War is not aiming to America, but European Countries!
EU is having so many other problem than discussing Putin and cold war with Russia. Sometimes this seems like similar situation at the WWI. When they just artifiically intense the conflicts to hide problem of wealth accumulation that initiated economic problems. Seems similar symptomps initiated WWII. And not instead to solve real problems of stagnation and radical change of economic models to initiate new development cycle for Europeans they have time and resources to discuss and confront with Russia. So taxpayers are sponsoring EU bureacracy to intense confrontations instead on working the EU problems of stagnation and daily life survival imbalance through Europe?
Hope NOT!!! I’ve already lived in the first cold war between those two and it was not a happiness…
How about Turkey that invaded Cyprus in 1974 killing a lot of innocent people and occupying half of CYPRUS!!!!!! This is Unacceptable people!!! Why does Europe don’t give a f*** what’s going on here??? WHY??? CYPRUS is also part of European Union!!! Is it because Europe has a lot more of interests from Turkey and much less from Cyprus!!! Why its not a big deal like Europe with Russia right now!!! Although it not the same because Russia tries to protect Russian-Speakers from Ukraine-Nazis that spread destruction and killing and most importantly it feels the threat of NATO and USA in their borders which has a serious logic to take these measures!
@ Ivan
I voted for during E.U. elections!!
Do you or people voted for the british Union or a single currency or this cenralized UK governement for your 4 countries in it?
Cameron promised Scotland some power back so it seems Britain has to federate if you like it or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dIofKaWido
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8evK_oQacAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4vBXjwHU4s
But it’s Donbass, you can compare! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TghbQN_zMXY
We ought to avoid this step back and to negotiate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2YipesZRSA
No, please no ! The US would love it of course, but Europeans don’t ! We love Russia and its culture and its people, no more cold wars please, let’s keep our relationship with Russia a warm and friendly one.
Is Russia about to start new Cold War…. Should be….
Really? The EU is the instigator? This is a watershed moment for the EU where it, along with NATO, needs to prove it’s ability to protect it’s territory & people. Russia is flying military aircraft including nuclear bombers near European airspace and is now supporting right wing parties within the EU. Putin’s Russia is dangerous. Much respect to the men & women from around Europe, Canada & the USA, patrolling Europe’s borders as part of NATO.
Ohhhhhhh ! I cant beliveee that in this world we can Not live in pace ?! Why ; always fight and anamy?!? ” hand made all this Mess in this wanderful earth unfurtunatlly !!!!!!((((((((((((((((((((
no absolutly no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its not a solution”’ by war”’ ”only peace”
cold war is not a good idea,,,
RUSSIA is about to begin a new cold war… not EU. And Putin (a paranoid exKGB exSTASI) is the problem.
It’s the new kind of cold war and it’s here. We are making a step back because of Russias aggression. It’s their own fault. EU and USA are far more advanced with military budgets far greater than Russia could ever dream of. Cold war isn’t a major issue. We will win either way. What is a major problem is over 4000 killed in Ukraine and planes being blown out the sky in our back yards for nothing. Wast is taking over and old world doesn’t like it.
The time has come for a “New Currency Standard”….https://sgoutzioulis.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/the-new-currency-standard/
It’s not about to begin a “New Cold War” but being tied to the American chariot of hot war with Russia and China, as all can see that the American has already withdrawn all its troop from Afghanistan unilaterally. Biden has also openly announced that all troop would be redeployed to new ground to fight against China. After Afghanistan and the current AUKUS betrayal of France, if EU is clever enough, a dying hegemon cannot depend on “New Cold War” to survive but a war in a “regional” scale as China is the third military power. When China is in danger, Russia would definitely back up otherwise, it will become the following target. The America is aiming at a third world war in EuroAsia as the US is isolated by two oceans. This is the only way the American can be great again. Think carefully the purpose of the EU is to prevent the recurrent of the third devastating world war, not a warmonger American be great again.
Do not mislead the EU citizens, it is not a “New Cold War” with Russia. American’s aim is on China. The American cannot concealed its hostility against China anymore. It is a preparation of a hot World War not Cold War anymore. How can the US compete with China? The US cannot even tell its own people to wear a mask, the government cannot even save life of its people with daily death toll similar to that of a single day on 911 terrorists attack. But China is a rising young and rich country with 1.4 billion, the second largest economy, the third military power, the world factory and the only country that can build its own satellite navigation system and a space lab alone, and the only country that can tame a pandemic and its factories have been manufacturing all commodities to save life during the pandemic and is still doing. The Liberation Army has been preparing for 70 years to wipe the history of a Century of Humiliation for the country to fly. Just think of the reality what war the American has ever won? Think of how a war torn and poor China had forced the American to end its aggressive war in Korean Peninsula and Vietnam in the mid-20th Century. We are already in the 21 Century. China’s GDP size has grown almost 500 times since 1950. Everyone ought to be aware of, encouraging the US to start a war with either Russia and China means the annihilation of mankind.