News that Switzerland has approved via referendum a cap on the number of EU migrants has been turning heads recently. Life outside the EU might not be so bad if it means greater freedom to pick and choose which rules apply. We’ll have a dedicated post on this topic soon, but in the meantime we wanted to ask people whether they think their country might be better off outside the EU. Could other countries be tempted to follow Switzerland’s example?
We’ve been covering a series of town hall meetings between citizens and members of the European Commission recently as part of a continent-wide “Debate on the Future of Europe“. The most recent of these meetings took place yesterday in that great bastion of euroscepticism, the United Kingdom. Viviane Reding, Vice-President of the European Commission, and David Lidington, the British Minister for Europe, answered some (admittedly quite pro-EU) questions from citizens at the Royal Institution, London.
It’s not just the UK that has seen a surge in euroscepticism over recent years, though. You can see some of the opinion poll data on growing levels of dissatisfaction within the EU in our infographic below (and you can click on the image for a higher resolution version). Whilst 57% of people said they trusted the EU before the crisis, that number had almost halved to 31% by last year. But when asked “Do you think your country would be better off outside the EU?“, there were a range of different responses, from 53% saying “Yes” in the UK to only 17% in Belgium.
Most strikingly (especially with the European Parliament elections in May almost upon us), whilst Eurosceptics only achieved 4.8% of the vote in 2009, they are predicted to take almost 30% of the vote in some countries this time round.
Do YOU think your country would be better off outside the EU? Have you lost trust in the European Union since the crisis began? And will you be voting for a eurosceptic party in May? Or do you think your country has benefited from EU membership and is stronger because of it? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.
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Yes we would be better ioff out and i have never trusted the eu and its unelected nobodies.
How is the EU unelected? The parliament is directly elected and is as legitimate as any national parliament! The council are national governments which have been elected by the people of their countries to govern them on a national and european level. And the commission is elected by both of those and its sole purpose is basically to draft laws which are then either approved or disaproved by the parliament and the council. The UK is more undemocratic in a lot of ways if you just look at the House of Lords and the problems of the FPTP electoral system! So tell me how exactly is the EU undemocratic and how would it need to change to become more democratic ???
How is the EU unelected? The parliament is directly elected and is as legitimate as any national parliament! The council are national governments which have been elected by the people of their countries to govern them on a national and european level. And the commission is elected by both of those and its sole purpose is basically to draft laws which are then either approved or disaproved by the parliament and the council. The UK is more undemocratic in a lot of ways if you just look at the House of Lords and the problems of the FPTP electoral system! So tell me how exactly is the EU undemocratic ?
@MaxK
no you would be wrong. The EU parliament may be ‘elected’ but that says little as the parliament of North Korea is also technically ‘elected’.
Neither of these parliaments is in fact democratic. The EU’s isn’t democratic because of the little fact that there is no EU-demos ie common identity. And where there is no demos, there is no democracy.
Two examples: 21 bank robbers and 7 bank clerks voting 21-7 in favor of the bank robbery is not a democratic vote. The other people living in your street voting in majority that you should give them money also is not a democratic vote, as in neither case there is a ‘demos’ which would make it so.
Second, our national government was not elected to ‘govern us on a European level’ as you suggest. Third, the commission (aka politburo) is not elected in any way, it has zero democratic legitimacy.
You see, politicians have set the EU up precisely so they can use the system to BYPASS national parliaments to push through laws they cannot get past their own parliaments. I don’t know what this is, but democracy this not be.
I certainly do not remember voting in favor of a system where Greek, Italian, Spanish, Bulgarian, Estonian or Polish politicians can vote themselves and their countries more of our money.
Marcel is correct
We elect our government and entrust them to run our country in the best interest of the people, that is why they are called “civil servants”and not “civil rulers”.
They serve the people not dictate to them, and the authority invested in them to create laws and regulations to run the country is not theirs to give away to the EU, at least not without the consent of the people they serve
Therein lies the main failing in claiming the EU is democratic
You are wrong there is a european demos as their also is a european politi! You dont necissarily need a common identity in order to form a demos if everyone would be the same it wouldnt be democracy anymore!
Second of all how is the European Parliament undemocratic you couldnt answer that question??? I mean the North Korean one is because they dont have the choice who to vote for and cant stand in elections dont have freedom of expression or freedom of initiative which eu citizens have ect.
And Yes we do elect our government to represent us in the EU thats why every mainstream party has a chapter about Europe in their manifesto! And how does the Eu dictate national politics if the council aka national governments have the most power in Europe and can even veto legislation ??? And last but not least the Commission is elected by your national government ministers and than approved by youre MPs in the Parliament so how is that undemocratic!
Im listening and the EU is not doing aything to national governments they are doing it to themselves!
Can you right-wing loons stop with this “unelected” load of crock ?!
They ARE elected. Read the damn structure organization before babbling.
the commision has too be disbanded then the eu has a chance too survive.
The Swiss seem to think so, the EU on paper was one thing, its morphed into another version of Amerikkka or slavelandia.
No they dont a majority of 0.3% thinks that freedom of movement should be restricted differently that is far from saying the EU became a Union like the US. And switzerland is actually not a part of the EU.
@maxk,the EU is not a democracy ,the Eurocrats were elected internally, not by the peoples of Europe ,I don’t remember having a say in who should make the rules I have to live by.The UK government is a mess ,but it is a mess that resulted following an election in which the British people were given a vote.Not so in The EU .Those in charge were never elected by the people of the countries they pretend to support ,they are inherently untrustworthy and serve only themselves,they care not at all for those they rule and continue to push for a federal Europe despite an increasing tide of anti EU feeling across Europe.If you are too blind to see what is happening you are either deluded or are simply making these statements in order create controversy.
How is the EU not democratic you elect the parliament which represents you directly and your national government has a vote in the council the council than pruposes the eu commissioners and the parliament elects them so it is the same as it is in Britain you dont elect the britocrats ;) the majority party forms the government. And actually the EU just changed how the Comissioners are elected so now the majority party in the EU parliament will get to form the commission for example for the Social Democrats Martin Schulz is running for comissioner.
The whole process isnactually really democratic more democratic than the house of lords and the electoral system is much better then FPTP so stop claiming it is undemocratic when it is just not!
No, it’s better within EU. Of course, EU would also be better without countries that don’t want more EU, but as they can’t decide to stay in or to get out, we’re stuck with them and their problems with the unelected MEPs.
The Swiss are not part of EU. Their opinion about EU is as important as the Americans’ opinion of EU. And we all know what they think of EU ;)
Thank you for clearing that out…. I already knew, but i’m wondering now, reading the previous comments, how many people know that Switzerland is not part of the European Union, it just happens to be geographically in Europe .
Even if the question is misleading, i agree with the Swiss . they are a sovereign country, have the right to organize referendums, in consequence , to decide their own immigration policies.
Small states cannot exist without EU even if they are loosing their own themselves.
why?
That’s not true! Because of EU we, in Portugal, lost our industry and got unemployment. From the 8th most industrialised country in Europe, we became the 22nd . Because of EU we were forced to lower our custom tariffs to 3-6% allowing the imports of goods from countries with semi-slave workers. Because of the Euro, our goods became 35% more expensive to export outside of the eurozone since the Euro had appreciated towards the dollar and pounds. Because of the EU we lost our fishing fleet with subsidies to dismantle the old vessels. Because of EU and its freedom of capitals, our big corporations move their holdings to Holland and Luxembourg to not pay taxes in our country where they earn the money. Holland is stealling our taxes. Because of the EU, we were pushed to dig up olive trees and vineyards to protect the German sunflower oil and the French wine. Fortunately it has gone up again and is a profitable sector. Now look at Turkey, they have an association agreement and had grown at 5 to 7% instead us loosing our economy. Small countries only need an association agreement, that’s all.
You’re displaying a rather unsettling degree of neo-soviet thinking here. “Nothing should exist outside the collective”…
In my opinion, every citizen have come up with the idea that the strongest countries have obtained a benefit being EU members as the weakest countries are being really detrimented about their job conditions, human rights, and so on. We realize (I’m from Spain) that the economic fact has been improved. But the strength of a country is not just based on economic fixes but also (and above all) on the purchasing power because if we, the citizens, do not consume, how will money and weath be produced? UE is very harsh with the weakest countries (these are: Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal) always focusing in economic reforms making the citizens being moneyless; making jobs disappear, etc. but they should focus in the Government’s job, something that nowadays is SHAMEFUL and always trying to benefit the population; not the opposite. So, up to this point, taking into account the the euro is making things soooo expensive, I consider that there are some countries (the weakest ones) that would be much more strong and economically solvent if they did not depend on the UE decisions and would not belong to EU.
I agree completely
The problem is not the EU, the problem is the Euro. The currency is too strong for the weak countries and too weak for the strong countries. And on top the Euro produced high inflation in the weak countries, because of bad ECB policy.
here it is .. ..
Culture – Ethics – Information: underestimated critical factors for “competitive ” development
http://economicsandpolicy.blogspot.it/2014/02/culture-ethics-information_10.html
I hope the line of the European Union changes , that’s why I’ll vote Tsipras as a president of the European Commission .
Haven’t we all? Not at the idea of a united Europe, rather with the agenda, interests, or competence of Europe’s leaders!!
And I support the protests in Bulgaria.. They may not get as much attention as the Ukrainian ones for obvious reasons, but they are important.. But as Bulgaria is an EU member, bringing these protests to attention would harm even further the image of EU and the Bulgarian leadership…!
Greece may be a bit richer than Bulgaria but that does not mean we are much better.. Just look at how Europe is treating us!! We the peoplemust support each other!!
True.. Because Greece used to have very good social services that many in Europe and the Capitalists hated it.. We had strong unions and rights for our workers, something unacceptable for the Capitalists.With the crisis they managed to destroy all that and turn the Greeks into slaves for the rich capitalists, either within Greece or from abroad..Humiliation is exactly what it is, because we are hated as a nation for what we represent and our values. Now we are forced to sell off our country for scraps and we are called lazy and corrupt.. We are forced to pay up and stabilize Europe’s banking system, save the euro with our money and sweat. While the northerners seem to constantly pay for us it is actually the other way around.. The money they are giving to us to not go in the Greek economy or to the Greek people, rather they are going to the German,French and other nation’s bank shares in our banking system.. So instead of Mrs Merkel telling to the German people that they are going to pour bucket loads of money to the German and other European bankers, it is easier to slander the peripheral nations and put all blame on them, while making them pay for everything.. The rich countries are becoming richer while the poorer even more poor and not just that they have the nerve to keep “reminding” us how lazy and corrupt we are and how we need them to rule over us, while in fact they are the ones who are corrupt to the bone..European vulture culture!! The euro did not fail because of the peripheral economies, it failed because of the mismanagement and corruption within the EU institutions and the big players of the EU, the core nations!! How are they blame the rest of us! In all their history they were pillaging other regions to gather their riches and now they present themselves as the saviors and the moral ones.. That takes a nerve!!
Same thing about Romania …, only taxes …0 benefits…all the prices have raised after the gas has raised …we are we are buying our own petrol overpriced…everithing got worse after 2007 .
So ..inside the EU but changing many things .
The big problem with this question is how can we form an opinion on whether we will be better off outside the EU if we don’t know what benefit we are getting from being in?
No one will put down in straightforward facts and figures exactly what a country puts into the EU and how that country benefits in return
There can only be three reasons for this:
Either the EU doesn’t know what it spends and what impact it has on the various member countries in which case they should all be sacked for gross incompetence
Or
They are too scared to come out with the truth because it will reveal all the corruption and waste pouring millions of pounds down the drain
Or
They are too scared to come out with the truth because the taxpayers of some countries are being ripped off to support the poorer nations with no reciprocal benefit at all
Lost trust? O.K., they should be driven out of the EU, period.
Yes. The trust for eu is nearly gone, thus I wish to say the opposite. The way of handling the monetarychrisis and focusing on unimportant directives just as cucumber and when tthe decisions are pointless when those are not directly taken into use in all memberstates. Pity as Eu is a big possibility.
that sign “no exit” what is that suppose to entail?
Strong countries benefited and became stronger, while weak countries were saved from becoming much weaker….the crisis showed clearly, however, that the EU cares a lot more about the profits of bankers, stockholders, international loan-sharks, than the needs of its citizens. European citizens don’t reject the EU. It’s the EU that rejects them and it’s a crying pity…
Pavlos, you’ve been faster than me with your comment and you put my thoughts into words. I think, as long as there are people like you, like us, there’s still a chance to succeed one day.
You beleave you do not have to repay loans?
I like EU the way it is, except Greece should be kicked out or at least lose the euro.
I’m not going to defend Greece nor to present the importance of the Hellenic presence in the European Union. I really think it’s pointless… I just remind that Greece didn’t block Croatia to enter the Union, such a problematic country. And that’s not a subjective statement. “Croatia is an economy at risk and a burden on EU and U.S. taxpayers through its high debt and high borrowing as well as its persistently dysfunctional judicial system,” says Srdoc, who’s formed her own political party, Croatia 21st Century.
Why kicked out? It was, is and will be the best client of the EU, not to mention Germany”s best client. It is easy to find scapegoats and imaginary foes and deny the real structural problems the EU is faced with and go far beyond the question “Greek exit or not”.
@Pavlos Vasileiadis
Apart from your first hyperbolic sentence (a country of 11 million is too small to be “the best client of the EU/Germany”) your comments are quite insightful.
Crybabies cry… EU is the future or the world will eat us. Decide..
@Lee Tong
A corrupt, malformed, badly performing EU will destroy us too.
Why can’t we reform the present institutions of the EU? Why should the discussion be based on the division between “inside the EU” and “outside”? I think for myself that I am “pro-EU”, and I truly believe that my country has benefitted from the EU membership. BUT, there is always room for changes in the EU system. I think that an institutional reform right now would be the best for all the EU member-states, especially if we take into account the appeal of the extreme right movements to the peoples of the EU.
Why would you be proudly proclaiming that you are “anti-democracy”? I do not understand this.
Because “pro-EU” and “anti-democracy” are synonymous. Just to let you know.
Marcel is spot on ,the very fact that anyone declares themselves pro EU ,is a declaration of being anti democracy.
E U must be more gentle and democraticly and no more cosmetics.
Simply not possible Vincent,the EU exists to be domineering,heavy handed and dictatorial.
NO!
I believe all countries should leave the EU and push the WTO into free trade Worldwide , we would be better off out .Your estimates for UKIP this year could be a bit off , I would expect nearer 30%
I was against the Croatian accession to the European Union. Especially because of that we were not ready. The reforms were not well implemented and their implementation that cost us dearly and would harm us.
But the situation is such that we are now in the European Union and we have to accept. Now all our strength and our will have to invest in the fight against joining the eurozone and the Schengen zone.
It is very important to achieve greater autonomy in the area of foreign policy, and agricultural policy and fisheries. European rules in the field of agriculture and fisheries us harm.
Its interesting to see how many people argue for exiting the EU when they have no living memory of life outside of the EU. In Ireland’s case we went from a socially conservative and economically depressed nation to a vibrant culturally rice country. Obviously we have further to go but we should not forget that the decades intermediately following independence where marked by mass unemployment and no social welfare system worth mentioning. In my own opinion, even at our worst over the last 8 years we are still better off than we were outside of the EU
Why can’t we reform the present institutions of the EU? Why should the discussion be based on the division between “inside the EU” and “outside”? I think for myself that I am “pro-EU”, and I truly believe that my country has benefitted from the EU membership. BUT, there is always room for changes in the EU system. I think that an institutional reform right now would be the best for all the EU member-states, especially if we take into account the appeal of the extreme right movements to the peoples of the EU.
E U must be more gentle and democraticly and no more cosmetics.
NO!
I was against the Croatian accession to the European Union. Especially because of that we were not ready. The reforms were not well implemented and their implementation that cost us dearly and would harm us.
But the situation is such that we are now in the European Union and we have to accept. Now all our strength and our will have to invest in the fight against joining the eurozone and the Schengen zone.
It is very important to achieve greater autonomy in the area of foreign policy, and agricultural policy and fisheries. European rules in the field of agriculture and fisheries us harm.
Its interesting to see how many people argue for exiting the EU when they have no living memory of life outside of the EU. In Ireland’s case we went from a socially conservative and economically depressed nation to a vibrant culturally rice country. Obviously we have further to go but we should not forget that the decades intermediately following independence where marked by mass unemployment and no social welfare system worth mentioning. In my own opinion, even at our worst over the last 8 years we are still better off than we were outside of the EU
@Martin Monks
What a silly observation!
I have no personal memory of Adolf Hitler but I know he was an evil man.
IMHO:
Whether in the EU or not, growing global trade would have helped Ireland gain wealth just like many African and Asian countries.
Furthermore, English language skills [nothing to do with the EU] had a lot to do with Ireland’s economic empowerment.
nim. unio comercial sim. perda de soberania dos pases no.
We developed like they wanted and now we are paying for it like they asked… Seems like financial dictatorship… No job or underpayed job with no social protection whatsoever… Thank you for turning right in politics that lead us exactly to where we are escaping from. People who take decisions in Brussels are well paid to do so, theres no much room for social empathy or understanding of peoples needs over there… The only thing that matters is collecting taxes to feed banksters interests and speculation, free market is another word for global colonialism… Creating an union trough coinage (made by someone in Germany), its something else… Not a union :D
WE NEED A FULLY DEMOCRATIC AND ACCOUNTABLE EUROPE. Let’s work on this together! I am a candidate for the European Parliament elections on the lists of the European Federalist Party and Stand Up for the United States of Europe. Do not hesitate to ask me questions or send me your suggestions, thank you! Pietro De Matteis
@Pietro De Matteis
QUESTION:
I fully appreciate, respect and admire the great contribution that Italy has made to the WORLD never mind Europe. Indeed, Italy is the greatest, defining Latin nation – parent to the derivative cultures of France, Spain, Portugal etc etc.
However, today Italy suffers from pandemic corruption.
With that in mind, how can you prove that you are NOT tainted by the pandemic corruption that seems part and parcel of Italian politics?
You know we will never have that . While the unelected commission holds the power, the Parliament to which you seek election is nothing more than a face to give the illusion of democracy. As a federalist you will be part of the process of removing sovereignty from the nation states of Europe and are part of the problem , not the solution .
Hm. Switzerland enjoys more or less the same benefits in its dealings with EU countries as EU members. It would be sad to see them start picking just the raisins out of the bun.
“Unelected nobodies” is populist uneducated rubbish: a) the Council, i.e. the 28 governments in college, are the ones who mastermind the EU’s roadmap. I hope will you you eventually elected these national nobodies back home (but maybe you don’t even vote and go for a beer instead?). b) the European Parliament is about your elected representatives co-deciding what the EU does or does not. c) the European Commission is not elected because it’s the technical place where the Council’s roadmap is being implemented. Of course, in your daily lives you don’t see much of what the EU does because it’s all about making it possible for you euroskeptics to enjoy your holiday, your business trips, your shopping trips, your passenger rights, your consumer rights or the gradual abolition of roaming (just a few items out of a rather long list) as if all this would come out of the blue. I’m tired of that uneducated and uninterested shite. If you think individual nations are better off when the rest of the world is growing together, well then happy drifting to Greenland UK!
Of course, before the EU we had no holidays, business & shopping trips or consumer rights did we?
Did you also know the EU invented the wheel, penicillin and put the first man in space?
Likewise I’m tired of “that uneducated and uninterested shite” that people claim the EU is responsible for
@JP Faure
LET ME CORRECT YOU!
Many EU countries [such as the UK] did NOT vote to empower the EU to be as-is, ergo said EU bodies are UNELECTED.
JP faure,are you honestly suggesting that we didn’t enjoy our lives before that most wonderful of benefactors the EU came along.Like most Europhiles you seem keen to exagerate the invisible benefits that the EU bestows on us,whereas the reality it is well past it’s sell by date and the cold hard truth is that if it was disbanded tomorrow most would give a massive sigh of relief and carry on with their lives as if nothing had changed.If you believe any different you clearly have a very strong vested interest in staying in the EU,you probably have a job and pension funded by them ,but of course I wouldn’t expect you to admit to that
Try this: https://factcheckeu.org/factchecks
JP Faure
I am sure that the website you cited is above board BUT it appears based in a country renowned for corruption and political malfeasance.
Perhaps if it was re-sited in say China, North Korea or indeed Zimbabwe it might imbue said site with a tad more gravitas.
That’s a great site. Thanks for sharing it.
We have benefited a great deal, especially in South West England and similar rural areas throughout the UK. Some things need fixing but that’s not surprising. Lets fix them.
Benefitted from what ? As a net contributor , any projects , grants and funding that come with EU endorsement is just the repatriation of part of what we give.
Its our money.
http://eblanademocraticmove.blogspot.ie/2014/02/how-european-of-you.html Dedicated to the euro-skeptics everywhere..Though I have to admit, without them we would not know half of what we know about the failures of EU.. So in fact they are helping European integration, without knowing it.. They are weeding out the lies and misinformation that our national governments are feeding us about the EU, and help us understand what needs to be changed.. The ball is up to the rest of us to work and change it..
I stopped reading after the first paragraph where it mentions xenophobia
To label a whole country xenophobic just because its people exercise their democratic right and choose what they think is best for their own country is typical of the bullying pro EU lobby
I just say things as they are.. Populism never did any good to anyone.. If the Swiss want foreigners to stop migrating to their country they should stop being a tax haven gathering other people’s money and then nobody will be interested to go there and live trying to stop paying taxes.. Wonder if they will want to get rid of the rich tax evaders as much as they want to stop poor Eastern Europeans entering their country!!
@Christos Mouzeviris
FTR:
“Populism never did any good to anyone” – WRONG – populism quite recently stopped the UK from joining, France & the USA re Syria.
There should be no place for absolutist binary thinkers like yourself on such a respected forum like DE.
We pro-democracy (ie anti-EU) shall continue to fight those that are anti-democracy (ie pro-EU).
We are not impressed by the pro-EU pravda-esque propaganda or the communist GDR East German-esque dismissal of anyone who is against the system as ‘xenophobes’.
On the contrary there should not be a place for racist, nationalist, narrow minded, bigoted and misinformed fanatics with bad manners like you in this forum Tarquin!!
Given the current (chronic) ineptitude and corruption of our leadership, I sincerely believe that Portugal would be better off within the context of a strong central European government in a strong European federation. The best interests of the Portuguese people would be best served if power were to be taken away from the current system found here. The economic crisis has exposed glaringly exactly whose best interests are being served (which is certainly not the people’s) but rather the power elite. The checks and balances of a Central European government with real power, would go far in resolving the age old problem of self-serving, inept, and therefore corrupt leadership in Portugal.
… what a stupid question … and … a waste of time … if we don’t get our EU act together we’ll vanish into a disneyland … with less then 8% of the worlds’ population is two decades … please wake up and work together for our kids future …
@Peter Schellinck
I agree with you, the EU population is less than 7.2% of the world population already and rapidly declining. The EU will fail unless it democratises itself for one and also allows the UK to cherry-pick its relationship with the EU which asymmetrically massively favours the EU at the expense [costing the UK billions] of the UK.
For example, why should the UK lose c£3billion per annum in fishing rights [to its own waters] to the likes of Spain and Portugal?
The current EU axis of France and Germany should be replaced by a 4-way alliance between the 2 most significant Northern EU nations – Germany and the UK and the 2 most significant Latin nations viz. Italy and [the derivative-culture] France.
Also, in the interests of EU cohesion, the EU language issue needs to be resolved – we should all speak the same language, namely English as it is the most widely spoken language in Europe, it is the only language natively spoken in all continents, it is the language of business, the language of technology, the language of finance, indeed, it is the most European of all languages borrowing heavily from Latin, French, German and Scandinavian AND it is a language that is acquisitive and accepting.
Since, France has lost the language war – it has a small vocabulary (courtesy of its racist Academie Francaise language police), it unnecessarily ‘genderises’ inanimate objects (checkout the French words for desk and table, one is feminine and the other masculine – tres bizarre), most of its prepositions start with a consonant which significantly lowers the likelihood of creating acronyms and does not quite ‘fit-in’ with SMS textese and rebus.
Although the French language sounds beautiful, French conversational gesticulation highlights the lack of expressivity of French as a language.
Please note that France is a great country, its the best Latin country today and has a great and prestigious history but for the EU to be a country, France, Germany, Italy and the UK must all swallow pills that are on occasion bitter. The language issue is France’s pill.
If France cannot swallow such a bitter pill, then may be France would be better off outside the EU.
What the fuck you gonna make people speak english now? I mean first of all german is the most spoken language in Europe germans austrians belgians and italians speak it natively. I might have understood you wrong but forcing people to abandon there native language goes completly against the fundemental Idea of Europe which is unity in diversity.
I do agree with you however that most people learn english and can speak it and therefore it could be used as the main language of burocracy and in official documents ect.
I mean maybe I got you wrong and you just ment using english as the most important language in government so please clarify what you mean exactly.
Lost it.Since Romania joined the UE it only became worst for us.We never should have joined UE.Romania was doing way better under Ceausescu ‘wings’.
I dont agree that Ceausescu’s central planning was the best for Romania, but i know for sure that Romania was too early “pre-adhered” to EU . After the last hyperinflation, denomination of currency, and the soo known financial crisis, the economy didn’t recover, but instead put in a death-race with the ” adheration mechanism” . Bad policies, made with the illusion of big wallets of the corporations.
Most of the legal procedures were made in a haste, to look good to the naive eye. 15 years later, and you find growing unemployment, corruption and faulty laws and policies. In the end, everybody in Romania pays the same price for bread, milk, meat or gas as in any other western-european member state. But romanians earn 3 times less on the job…
We all remember your Romania under Ceau?escu :)))))))))
I am a Portuguese citizen. many millions came to my country. Watch us now.
Good rant, JP, and exactly to the point! It’s tragicomical that the most vocal anti-EU voices have nobody else but the EU to thank for many improvements in their lives.
I still await this list of things I need to thank the EU for, I hope its a long one for all the money it costs us….
Yup. It reminds me (again) of the Life of Brian and those stupid pissed Saxons asking themselves what the Romans ever brought to England apart from roads, heating, drinkwater, architecture, art, new foods and aromas (which Brits have obviously forgotten about anyway), glassware etc… :-)
Yes and the Romans brought them as an invading army….
I love a good paradox
nice one!
@ Stephen Threlkeld: you are right. Things need to be fixed. I don’t think the EU can function in future as it has over the last 60 years. The EU is a strategy. Strategies need to adapt to stimuli. Today’s world is not what it was in 1957 (cold war, WWII basically just over, baby boom, economic recovery, etc.). European elections (unless we get a whole army of UKIP-like eejits elected into the EP so they can torpedo the EU and get some nice EU cash as MEPs at the same time), empowerment of NGO and civil society are the way forward.
@ Stephen Threlkeld: you are right. Things need to be fixed. I don’t think the EU can function in future as it has over the last 60 years. The EU is a strategy. Strategies need to adapt to stimuli. Today’s world is not what it was in 1957 (cold war, WWII basically just over, baby boom, economic recovery, etc.). European elections (unless we get a whole army of UKIP-like eejits elected into the EP so they can torpedo the EU and get some nice EU cash as MEPs at the same time), empowerment of NGO and civil society are the way forward.
i often wish people nowadays won´t be so narrow-minded and egoistic and therefore had the courage and the vision of the founding fathers of the EU
@European Laissez Faire
Are these the post-ww2 Nazis that helped found the EU – domination by political perfidy and not domination by war perhaps?
Their ‘vision’ comes down to abolishing national democracy.
Care to explain as to why I should not oppose that?
EU should be changed into the region around Baltic Sea:)
EU should be changed into the region around Baltic Sea:)
Well thats like asking a terminally ill patient if he wants a cure.
Yes yes absolutley, can we leave now oh please..
The netherlands has been drained financially, our schools/hospitals/military have been hollowed out to the point of destitution. Old age homes are broke , everything has been drained to finance brussels. Weve had cuts, layoffs , im sure you get the picture.
It would be a breath of fresh air to loose brussels, we could again invest and innovate to gain control of our own finances, print our own money , oh yes thats a future good for everyone.
We dont need borders in europe , we need trade , and decent honest leadership.
Not this brussels machine run by american banksters/powerbrokers, whats happening now is the biggest annexation in history, and an undemocratic one to boot.
Send the american banksters with thier ecb back to the federal reserve bank and let them find another feeding trough.
http://rt.com/news/eu-drones-taxpayer-financed-668/
I was a high supporter of EU, even a federalist. Saying this let’s see the results of my country joining the EU and the Euro: Before we were the 8th most industrialized country in Europe. Our industry was 38% in our GDP. Now, we are the 22nd industrialised country. Now our industry is just 13% of our GDP. Before we had a public debt of 60% of our GDP. Now we have 130%. Before our agriculture could feed 60% of our food needs. Now is only 30%. Before we had a fishing fleet. Now we do not have it, we import our fish. Before, we could control the capital leaving the country. Now we cannot, therefore all of our big corporations move out their Holding companies to Holland to not pay taxes in Portugal and now Holland is stealing our taxes. Before we could devalue our currency to benefit the economy and exports. Now we cannot. Before we had 7% of unemployment. Now we have 17%. So, can I call our EU membership a success? You tell me.
I was a high supporter of EU, even a federalist. Saying this let’s see the results of my country joining the EU and the Euro: Before we were the 8th most industrialized country in Europe. Our industry was 38% in our GDP. Now, we are the 22nd industrialised country. Now our industry is just 13% of our GDP. Before we had a public debt of 60% of our GDP. Now we have 130%. Before our agriculture could feed 60% of our food needs. Now is only 30%. Before we had a fishing fleet. Now we do not have it, we import our fish. Before, we could control the capital leaving the country. Now we cannot, therefore all of our big corporations move out their Holding companies to Holland to not pay taxes in Portugal and now Holland is stealing our taxes. Before we could devalue our currency to benefit the economy and exports. Now we cannot. Before we had 7% of unemployment. Now we have 17%. So, can I call our EU membership a success? You tell me.
@Vicente Silva Tavares
Of course, all the woes of Portugal have nothing to do with the poor Portuguese. They are just innocent players in the great game of international commerce and competition.
If Portugal leaves the EU, the UK will get some of its fishing grounds back and the UK won’t have to pay billions to subsidise Portugal.
Maybe your corporate income tax rates should be lower.
Signed,
the Netherlands.
May be it is time, Southern European countries leave the EU and start their own union on a different basis. A custom union between them and reciprocal customs tariffs for third countries.
May be it is time, Southern European countries leave the EU and start their own union on a different basis. A custom union between them and reciprocal customs tariffs for third countries.
I was against joining the EEC then as it would be, as become a marriage with no divorce option. Today the recovery of Portugal is dependent in a lot of dimensions from EU. The crisis we are in has its foundations in two main pilars. The democracy implemented in 74 and subsequent political path we took, embracing blindly the western and european style democracy and its associated liberalism, and secondly in accepting the leadership of EU regarding the path to set in our economy. We were paid to stop our textiles, our ficheries, our industries, we were subsidised to create the conditions to be import dependent of EU. EU was focused in boosting the asian industry, particularly China, what represented the opportunity to export all the machinery and technology for their industry. Meanwhile we were getting poor and poor and poor. When the crisis came we were blaimed by spending more than what we should and could, blaimed by living above our possibilites and with a hudge debt externalised to be paid. Who to? To the markets, whatever is this, to the biggest financial institutions of EU to the strongest countries of EU. Just a note, the people that were living as millionaires and producing as beggers, even during the golden years were waging averagely less than 400? per month. I am prity sure that those were the persons that were having vacations in the Carabian waters, south of France or skying in the Alpes… So, EU? Democracy? Germany, France, UK, etc… Thanks but no Thanks. The more I miss the one that once said – I’D RATHER BE PROUDLY ALONE THAN WITH AN HUMILIATING COMPANY…
@Jacques Valente
Please let Portugal be “PROUDLY ALONE” the UK would save billions of pounds if Portugal did.
The EU is not imposing anthing on EU countries Eu countries and there representatives impose those rules on themselves! And most national governments actually back proposals in the EU council and then critizise them afterwards and blame the EU for the rules they themselves made up !
O Euro foi criado para não ter um final feliz o Euro é fundamental dentro do projeto da Europa o grande problema é que o venho continente terá que lutar contra o vento contrário
A Europa terá que lutar contra o vento contrário
My country Netherlands would certainly be better off out. All net contributors are by definition better off out. Trade continues without EU.
Of course trade continues outside the EU but at what cost? If you knew anything about business you would know that transnational costs are a burden on businesses which reduces export potential (ie, many companes choose not to operate outside their borders) and reduces profits, which means downwards pressure on employment. When businesses reduce unecessary costs they can afford to employ more people, expand and pay better wages. Wha would any business voluntarily choose to burden itself with extra costs and limit is expansion potential? Europe would be poorer without the EU.
As far as I can see, it is precisely this ‘deregulation’ and ‘de-tariff-ization’ that causes reduction in employment as jobs move to the lowest wage countries.
What we need is protection and tariffs to protect local workers from the competition from low wage countries where workers protection levels are also far lower than they are here.
I am not at all concerned with huge corporations losing a few moneys. If they don’t want to do the business, we’ll get others in their place. The big corpo-rats are too influential as they are anyway.
Same with this propaganda about the transatlantic treaty. “It will create jobs”, “it will boost the economy.
One can be amazed about the brazenness at which they wage this propaganda, as reality will be that the transatlantic treaty will do the exact opposite, it will destroy jobs, undermine workers/environmental/consumer protection and open us up to fracking, genetically modified American food crap.
At the same time it proposes to virtually ‘guarantee’ corporate bottom line, creating shadowy arbitrage courts where corporations can sue governments if laws and regulations cause loss of profits. Yes you read it well, the transatlantic treaty will officially put corporations next to if not above national governments and court systems.
Absolutely disgraceful that any sane person would support any such treaty
Europe have to stay together, otherwise is gona be easy victim for foreigner goods.
My country has benefited until they have that “brilliant” idea to allow all the Eastern countries in, and few years later then started many problems. And now they even want Ukraine inside, imperialist craziness got no limits….
My country has benefited until they have that “brilliant” idea to allow all the Eastern countries in, and few years later then started many problems. And now they even want Ukraine inside, imperialist craziness got no limits….
I would fully argee, and Norway is a beautiful country
The one detail you omit though is that Norway is a damn expensive place to live
But I suppose you get what you pay for in life and considering the UK is paying billions into the EU and getting bugger all in return except countries whining for more, I think Norway has the right idea
Only the small countries in the EU are getting the most out of it. The bigger countries are there to simply foot the bill.
I have lost trust in the EU far before the crisis hit.
@Christos Mouzeviris
The EU would be better off if it expelled developing countries with extremist views [like Greece].
Decades of subsidy by the EU and endemic almost pandemic corruption combined with a binary mindset and a ‘blame everyone else’ racist mentality has resulted in the basket-case that Greece is today.
I have a better solution.. Expel the racist, narrow minded, bigoted, thieving and corrupt nation that is Britain, and with it the whole British binge drinkers and commoners that shove their deprived culture in our face each summer in our lands.. Clear the gunk at last!!
Christos,at last we agree on something,I knew we could find common ground.Yes please expel us from the EU,as soon as possible,then and only then can there be EQUALITY between countries.
Look at it this way When say a person gives or lends you money the balance becomes unequal,there is gratitude on the part of the recipient to be sure but also resentment that they are now to some degree subservient,inferior ,less able than those who payroll them,resulting in civil unrest ,unhappiness.
But change that relationship to one where there is an exchange in trade without handouts or loans ,then the relationship becomes stronger,
I enjoyed many holidays in Greece when it had the drachma,but since the Euro was adopted or should that be forced on the Greek people I see more anger and resentment,Why do you suppose that is.
So yes expel us ,I for one would support you ,and while you are at it,also have the courage to Expel Germany and all the other paymasters.Then we can be friends again,some richer ,some poorer but at the end all equal.
@Christos Mouzeviris
You very rarely have a good/better idea old chap – you are limited by your binary mindset, your political background [Greece is a country of extreme murderous left AND extreme murderous right] and the fact that you are unable to control your hyper-emotional ego prior to putting finger to keyboard.
You have a very low PQ [Political Quotient] and a delusional desire to inform all and sundry – you do a great disservice to the vast majority of decent Greeks by your inelegant, ineloquent diatribes that encourage non-Greeks to think ill of such a previously reputable nation.
Would my country be better off outside the EU? Hmmm, methinks the EU would be better off without Greece if it keeps producing stereotypical, hyperbolic, emotional low-PQ zealots like you.
Please don’t take it personally my friend – just try to understand that your extreme, hyperbolic, aggressive, deluded and irrational/passionate opinions are often merit-less and without substance or gravitas.
Tarquin,that is without a doubt the best ,most eloquently put post I have ever read,absolutely spot on,I wish I knew as many words as you,you really should write a book,this is not meant sarcastically all the best
Better inside of EU!!!
That is what you want, not to share your riches. You are a selfish nation.. You conquered and you pillaged, and even now you sick your nose to other nations’ affairs, playing the little accolade of the Big Brother uncle Sam.. You invade other nations, destabilize them, steal its oil, and then you complain why they are coming to your countries.. You have established a corrupt banking and financial sector that is part of the larger banking mafia of this world, stealing money taxes and jobs from other regions and then you complain that others come to get your jobs.. You manipulate the world’s economy through this system that favors some nations but brings others that do not fit in it down, then you call them basket cases and look down on them.. The only solution for you to stop accepting immigrants and paying for others, is in fact to let go of this sector and go back producing something and actually do some work..You are the ones who are lazy and seek easy riches by gambling in the markets.. Then you have the nerve to call others as such… And you are so stupid that you do not see that your are taken for a ride by your rich elites, blaming the poverty and lack of social services in your country on the foreign aid, or the foreigners in your country or the EU and other European nationals, while you do not understand that as long as you are part of this system, which promotes inequality among nations and among a society, Britain will never be an equal country.. The rich will always be richer and poor poorer in your country.. Yet you are happy to blame others… Bless your stupidity as a nation!!
But what do I expect from nations that have institutionalized inequality in the form of a priviledged by birth few, aka the Royal family to understand what I am talking about.. The very thing you said that some remain poor and some others rich and so we all stay equal sums up up your madness.. How we can be equal while there are huge inequalities among us?
@Christos Mouzeviris
The fact that you [a Greek] live in Ireland, says a lot about what your country offers you. Lol!
BTW, Greece once did exactly what you denigrate the UK for – have you ever heard of Alexander the Great?
Have you no shame?
You slate the UK for its colonial past BUT then insult the UK because it won’t give poor [developing and pandemically corrupt] Greece some of the spoils. LOL!
It is people like you that encourage many people to want Greece out of the EU – you have too much to say, too little to offer [other than a begging bowl] and too little PQ.
BTW, when the Greek political system is as clean as any top 20 TI country, then maybe I might even entertain your silly extremist rant about the UK ‘s constitutional Monarchy – until then – keep your peace.
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No, in Poland we get much money from the EU to modernize our country. In our school we have got interactiv bords, that was shopped with money from the EU. Hundreds of rouds, motorways, pools, public buildings etc. was also build using money from the EU.
P.S. Sorry for my English, I am foregin-lander
Absolutely not!
Long live the EU!
@Mihai Kolev, Tarquin is an attention seeker and wants to cause arguments just for the sake of it.. He will now call you racist all the time and try to discredit all that you say by repeating over and over the same argument, that you are racist and so your opinion is not valid..
He also belongs to a group of British euro-skeptics that attack anyone who support European integration, solely by the argument that the rest of us are inferior nations and we will contaminate Britain by our immorality and financial practices or corruption.. So get used to attacks by morons from the UK and others euro-skeptic countries if you say anything positive about the EU or Europe.. That is their tactic,discrediting by lowering your credibility, (or at least trying)..
As for Ireland, yes it is a nice country to live in, not without problems or unresolved issues, just any country… The majority of the population are pro-European, though the crisis has affected them too and some confusion or euro-skepticism exists also here, mainly because of the inability of our leaders to explain exactly what is going on, so that they can protect their interests, aka votes.. Because the face of the crisis are the euro and the EU, people relate those two as the reason for all bad happening in Europe and of course they protest against them..
Bulgaria entered the EU not in the best of periods, when the Union faces big challenges and so they can not do much to help Bulgaria at the moment.. Most of the European governments are facing populism and rise of xenophobia back home, and so focusing on Bulgaria is in their least of priorities.. The main agenda now is to deal with the crisis.. Once this is done then perhaps better days will follow..
The infuriating thing is that they use Romania and Bulgaria as scapegoats for their immigration woes, or Greece for their economic ones.. Both cases are disgraceful and pure European hypocritical attitude.. They know very well that Bulgarians or Greeks are not to blame for their problems, but they got to place the blame on someone else because they do not want to be seen as they are ones to blame and lose votes.. Which is of course pathetic..
I gladly welcome any Bulgarian or Albanian in Greece or in Europe.. Free movement of people is good for an integrated region as Europe is.. There is no other way that we can change mentalities and break national monopolies, unless we encourage people to move around for work or study, vote and participate in their adopted country’s internal affairs and come in contact with other cultures and social or political systems..
So do not listen to what the British bigoted euro-skeptics are blubbering on about in here.. They are losing the battle that is why they are so desperate!! People want to move on from their limited nationalist mentality and exploit the benefits of a larger integrated European market, society and government…
Christos, why do you keep displaying a blatant disregard for ordinary people? Yes, you and your elitist friends benefit, but ordinary people do not, and never have profited from EU/Euro or ‘freedom of movement’. Even here in Netherlands I can see the devastation that mass eastern European immigration brought to poorer neighbourhoods.
But yes, the ‘educated’ elites living in their upper class (white) neighbourhoods are unaffected as yet.
Christos,the ones who lied were the Greek politicians who joined the EU knowing they had “cooked the books” and the EU officials who let Greece join knowing that the books had been cooked.What IS your problem with the UK ,who have paid a hell of a lot of money to the Greek bailouts.I like Greece ,I really do but you won’t get away with criticizing everybody for your problems whenju in fact the guilty party is …well it’s you Christos. As for losing the battle,I don’t think so.
You should show a little gratitude,it won’t be long before the countries you spend your time slagging off ,turn to you and say,off you go and pay your own way in the world,we ain’t giving you another penny,
Where will you be then Christos ?
Eric, spit the bubblegum that your government and the Daily Mail feed you.. It is bad for you! Do you really think that what Greece or any other country in EU what they need is British money? No, that is what YOU want to believe.. What we need is support to rebuilt our countries after the devastating economic and political mess YOU created during the two world wars that YOU started (I do not mean just Britain, but all the European powers) and the ridiculous cold war that followed.. We need to work together to change the economic landscape of Europe, that favors a few and exploits others. And the worse part is that while we are the ones that appear as leeches, in reality the leeches are the rich elites of the rich countries that want to exploit poorer nations..
The problem is intergovernmentalism in Europe and either you like it or not it is going to be solved only we a stronger European Parliament and closer political integration, more transparency and democracy ON EUROPEAN LEVEL!!
You said that the Greek authorities “cooked” the books.. And where was EU then, how it was allowed that to happen and why they did not take any actions to correct or punish Greece earlier? Hmm? Juncker, Luxembourg’s PM and all EU officials, knew what was going on in the Greek economy but according to his words, he was not allowed to say or do anything! By whom? Who wanted to bring the Greek and European economy to this state, so that we would be forced to sell out all our resources to the rich Europeans and North-Americans? It is not just Greece that cooked the books, it is Europe and America that cooked the whole crisis to alter the economic and political status quo.. And that includes Britain..
So you come now and you say that poor countries need your money and what we will do if you stop giving us “aid”..?? Seriously? The best thing actually that could happen is to dismantle the WTO, the banking system and everything that sustains the current political and economic status as it favors America and few Western European nations, together with their allies in Asia (Japan), that fulfill certain criteria… The best thing that could happen is to stop giving money, but allow countries to exploit their natural resources on their own, build factories and create new industries..
An example.. The EU is working on launching the HELIOS program, to exploit the sun of the Mediterranean by installing solar panels in Greece and other Mediterranean countries.. Where those solar panels will be built? Shouldn’t be those panels built in Greece and other Southern European countries, so that we could create jobs, and start exporting the components for solar power to other countries? What is likely to happen, is that those panels will be built in Germany or Northern Europe, or even worse in poor Asian countries, and all that we will do is to offer our lands for these panels to be placed on.. And for that we will be just renting our islands to rich European and American companies.. We won’t have jobs created, or increase our trade by increasing our exports, thus becoming a bit more Germany and harmonize our economy with then, a thing that would help to be in the euro without problems..
That is what Greece and other “poor” countries need, is for the rich elites of the elite nations to stop shoving their dirty nose in our business and we need for the EU to be reformed and become a real government. So that these investments should come directly from an EU body and not from the money of another European or American government, exploiting us and stealing our resources. Thus no more intergorvernmentalism that favors the big countries and powers of Europe, but direct democracy on pan-European level..
As for why I say those things about Britain? Well have a look at your chauvinist behavior, especially Tarquin’s! You think that the sun shines out of British ass and you are God’s gift to humanity when in fact the world could well do without USA and the UK and the moment! You think that all countries should follow your lead and when it comes to compromise you kick the bucket and start insulting all other nations, see yourself as superior and all others as inferior nations that are not worthy of being in the same club as you are..
You need us more than we need you.. Where would you be without our Markets to sell your expensive cars? Seriously think about it.. Our markets are dominated by your goods, once we join the European market..How many goods from Hungary, Bulgaria or Greece can you find in Britain, apart from agricultural ones? Those do not pay much.. Then go to those countries to see the British goods that are everywhere..
Someone must “ground” you and put your feet back to the ground.. And I am afraid that will be me in here, since your media and government want you to believe that you are still “Great”…!!!
Christos ,I agree with you,I have always believed that the EU is the worst disaster that has ever been created,I have said before on this forum that the EU should be broken up immediately ,all nations should take back control of their own affairs.we should trade with each other,respect each other.
Do you really think I enjoy the unending misery that this EU creates,I have been opposed to it from the start and will fight tooth and nail to facilitate the UKs withdrawal from the EU and for any and every other nation state to once again become independent.the reason for mass unemployment in Greece ,Spain ,Italy is BECAUSE of the EU ,
Eric it is your right to want what you believe it is best for your country,either this is to stay or leave the EU.. But one thing I dislike, is using other countries as an argument.. The failures in the UK are not all EU or Europe made..Your government is part of this EU that you want to tear down, so have you ever thought that a lot of the bad things that come out of the EU could actually be the result of British negotiations and lobbying?
Not to mention that if your government really wanted to sort out some of these problems in the UK, they would..Instead they let you believe that it is other European countries or their citizens to be blamed..That is what annoys me the most with the attitude of the “Euro-skeptics”.
I am what you would call “pro-European” or a “Euro-phile” not because I support this EU that we have at the moment, that as you know has a lot of shortfalls..I want to reform this institution that works and favors for the rich elites in each nation and the global ones too..
The reason that I support further European integration is because I love my country first, then Europe as a continent. And I know that if we go back to what Europe was before, my country won’t be left alone by the European powers, both East and West..
They have never stopped meddling in our affairs since the day we got liberated and in fact we only were allowed to be liberated after the public opinion in these powers became supportive to us.. So either we are in or outside the EU, we are going to have to deal with such attitudes from our “partners”… But if we manage to integrate further our countries, weakening the national powers, then it is good news for the smaller nations..
I know perhaps that is not as ideal for Germany, France or the UK, but for any peripheral state, less intergovernmentalism among Europe’s governments is great news.. And not because we are going to be receiving money, but if the big powers are forced to share and work for the development of all the continent together, with our participation and resources, then we are going to gain stability that we so much need in order to prosper..
I understand that for you such argument is of not interest, as Britain’s interests are slightly different.. But do refrain from accusing or slagging other nations off in order to convince us of your cause.. And that does not go just for you, but for all the euro-skeptics from the rich or so called “core nations”…….
@Anonymous69
FTR:
In 2009 Spain was not a net contributor to the EU see the following for proof:
http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=312129&picked=prox&CFID=80343396&CFTOKEN=23868672
In 2011 Spain received nearly 3 billion Euros net [i.e. it got more than it paid in] from the EU, see the following for proof:
http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/euo_en/spsv/all/79/
In 2012, Spain paid more into the EU than it took out for the FIRST TIME, a paltry c217 million euros. If you consider that:
Spain also receives more than half of the c£3billion pounds of UK fishing rights the UK was defrauded of by its own politicians
+
Spain’s financial sector has been propped up by tens of billions of EU euros.
Then, in short, Spain is NOT a big EU net contributor [if at all], indeed it has only made 1 net contribution to the EU and that does NOT include the benefits of UK fishing rights and EU banking bailouts.
Sorry to correct you old chap but to part-quote a well known Guardian editor “facts are sacred”.
@Anonymous69
FTR:
In 2009 Spain was not a net contributor to the EU see the following for proof:
http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=312129&picked=prox&CFID=80343396&CFTOKEN=23868672
In 2011 Spain received nearly 3 billion Euros net [i.e. it got more than it paid in] from the EU, see the following for proof:
http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/euo_en/spsv/all/79/
In 2012, Spain paid more into the EU than it took out for the FIRST TIME, a paltry c217 million euros. If you consider that:
Spain also receives more than half of the c£3billion pounds of UK fishing rights the UK was defrauded of by its own politicians
+
Spain’s financial sector has been propped up by tens of billions of EU euros.
Then, in short, Spain is NOT a big EU net contributor [if at all], indeed it has only made 1 net contribution to the EU and that does NOT include the benefits of UK fishing rights and EU banking bailouts.
Sorry to correct you old chap but to part-quote a well known Guardian editor “facts are sacred”.
As regards your opinions on country size and EU influence, some of your ideas are true but please remember that a country like Bulgaria with a population smaller than London has an equal vote in the EU Council with the UK, ergo c8 times the influence it should have [the UK official population is now c64 million] if democracy was the basis for the EU Council.
@Ericbana
Thank you for your kind words. Much appreciated. :)
@MaxK
The very existence of the European Parliament was not voted for by the UK and several other EU nations, ergo it is NOT democratic.
Please, understand that the EU ‘Grande Project’ is a decent and reasonable idea BUT NOT if it fails to adhere to and obey democracy. Otherwise it appears to be more of a EU regime than a democratic EU.
Until the EU has been democratically accepted by the UK population, the UK would be better off out [of the EU] than in.
I see what you mean. I agree with you that the british people should have had a referendum on the very existence of the parliament(they had one on joining the Common market by the way)but that fact doesnt make the parliament less legitimate! As far as I can recall the british people never had a say in if they want the house of commons or the house of lords actually a lot of countries never had that option but that doesnt make the British parliaments illigetimate.
And all in all the representatives of the British people agreed to the establishment of an EU parliament on their behalf so in that sense te parliament si democratically more legitimate than say the house of lords. So I dont think your argument is very valid because the EU is a functioning democracy and represents every european citizen the mere fact that its establishment was not agreed on in a direct vote doesnt make it less legitimate(as it doesnt make any democracy around the world less legitimate).
Tarquin, you have to realize that the pro-EU zealots will stoop to any level if they find out you are not enthusiastically in favor of their antidemocratic neo-Soviet ideals.
Disagreeing/dissent is a cardinal sin in the minds of the Brussels acolytes and they would love to make it illegal like in the old GDR it was also illegal to be against their form of government.
@Tarquin
Should we ask Christos who he thinks the EU should get to cover the loss of the UK’s net contribution if the UK leaves the Eurosoviet ‘club’?
Maybe he intends for Greece to cover the shortfall? Or to conjure it up by simply having Brussels decree the money to be ‘there’?
I must say it is enjoyable so see Eurosoviet acolytes and wannabe apparatchiks flailing around so angrily just because there are people who do not blindly agree to all things Eurosoviet.
Some peoples minds really do not seem to be able to comprehend there can be such a thing as disagreement/dissent from what the EU wants. This mentality was also prevalent ‘behind’ the Iron Curtain, especially in Moscow.
@MaxK
Your point about the legitimacy of the UK parliament is in fact pointless – please do some research on the English civil war [and various treaties, executions, strikes etc] that helped shape and legitimise the English [and then subsequently the UK] parliament to what its is today.
Furthermore, the democratic representatives of the UK have deliberately refused to engage the will of the people regarding EU membership – this is disturbing.
Worse still, it appears that other EU countries have not been allowed to express their opinion regarding EU membership.
I have always believed that the idea of an EU is a positive if not noble aspiration as it would stop the ‘continental blood brothers’ [Germany (that tried to conquer Europe twice in c20) and France (that tried to conquer Europe five times in c19)] from fighting their continental neighbours yet again.
However, because of the lack of democracy, its re-introduction of the death penalty, the endemic corruption, its lack of accountability and its desire to ride roughshod over the democratic wills of many EU nations in an aggressive ‘the end justifies the means’ rationale I am deeply concerned about the EU and what it is morphing into.
You apparently do not have such reservations, perhaps I value freedom and democracy a tad more than you maybe?
I doubt that you do;) You made a nice point about the civil war (even thou cmon I mean no universal sufforage ect.)but the scots didnt have a say in the union of parliaments does that make the entire UK parliament illegitamate and dont tell me simply because it happened ages ago its fine and look at the European treaties ratified by all European states which legitamise the Parliament in the same way? And by the way I believer very much in freedom and democracy and I also believe that the EU is the perfect institution to defend freedom and democracy. In my opinion the EU parliament hasnt got enough powers yet and national governments have to much power on the EU level why should david cameron pick the eu comission and not the parliament(even though it elects the comissioners) and why should he have a veto if the representatives of the European people including the peoples of Britain agreed to it thats representative democracy as it has allways been. I personally agree with you so that the EU has to become more democratic the political power has to been shifted more into the hands of parliament, EU wide referendums should be introduced the council should be replaced by a proper second chamber elected by national parliaments and the responsibilities of the Eu have to be redefined.
But overall you are talking abou the will of the people in your comment as you would know exactly what everyone was thinking which I very much doubt and actually the majority of people in the EU are according to polls pro EU and pro EU parliament!
@MaxK
I’m afraid that your worrying comments require me to refer same to Godwins Law.
Your unquestioning, blind, skewed loyalty and lack of respect for democracy remind me of the yay-sayers that supported Hitler in gaining and abusing democratic power – YOUR VIEWS ARE TRULY FRIGHTENING!
To be honest you remind me more of Hitler himself by saying that the will of the people all known by a single person trumps the power of parliament xD Come on answer the question how is the EUs parliaments legitimacy different than the one the UKs parliament has over scotland??? Your argument is completly wrong and instead of accepting that it is you just make sensless comments about the Nazi past ! But at the same time arguing against an elected body of representatives on a european level aka a democratic institution denieing its legitimacy!
So overall it is you who really lacks respect for democracy!
You are trying to denie a democratic institutions legitimacy on the basis of an rediculous argument. And moreover are probably the only person in the world who could interpret a comment in which I demanded European referendums and more power to the parliament as anti Democratic!
And I will actually give you a second example of a Parliament which is perfectly democratic and legitimate but was not initiated by a referendum but by representative of federal States which would be no other than the German one. And I think no one could ever challenge the German parliaments legitimacy on the basis of the same argument you are using to challenge the the legitimacy of the European one. So STOP MAKING UP SHIT and give an honest reply to the questions and points I made.
@MaxK
Please refrain from swearing – you lower the IQ of the whole forum.
Please would you be so kind as to elucidate me as to what <> I have made up.
Thank you.
First of all you connecting my statement for a reformed more democratic europe to nazi ideology(while at the same time denouncing the legitimacy of a democratic institution.
Your statement that it is not democratic!
But that was alll not my main point! So could you please answer the questions I asked and respond to the points I made in the comments above and explain to me for example why the Union of Parliaments is more democratic than the establishment of a european Parliament!
So just do me this one favour stop resorting to personal attacks and just give an honest response!
@MaxK
Ahh, I’m glad to see that you have refrained from swearing – there is no need for you to wallow in the gutter after all, thank you. FTR, if you resort to abusive language please don’t be alarmed if my riposte is of a personal nature – but remember YOU brought it upon yourself.
Given that we both agree that democracy is a good thing, I hope that you’ll accept that there are various forms of democracy, previous forms did not allow universal suffrage as you previously pointed out, furthermore some forms of democracy are superior [notionally and in the truest sense of the definition of the word ‘democracy’] to others.
Given the origins of the word ‘democracy’ and too the qualified nature of ‘representative democracy’ [i.e. NOT true democracy in the purest sense of the word] why do you seek to propound a lesser form of democracy [representative] instead of the truest form of democracy i.e. a plebiscite?
Furthermore, why do you NOT want to benefit from the superior decision-making abilities of the ‘crowd’ i.e. the people, THE ‘demos’]
Why do you prefer the inferior, limited, power-craving, sociopathic [a trait politicians (as a group) are notoriously associated with], corruption-prone, petite elite that holds sway in a representative democracy, never mind the inferior pseudo-representative democracy evident in the EU.
Your blind, unquestioning acceptance of the EU, already replete with corruption (accounts not signed off by the Court of Auditors for decades, the budget cash re-directions for the Galileo project, repeated project fraud, CAP fraud) mirrors at best the blasé attitude of those that naively undervalue democracy or at worst the wicked deluded Germans [then Austrians, then French, then Italian… etc] that supported Adolf Hitler.
Worse still you even had the audacity to state that “the EU is the perfect institution to defend freedom and democracy” despite its high-levels of corruption. LOL!!
You don’t even seem to comprehend that if the EU does NOT allow all nation states [via a proper referendum] to decide whether to be in/out of the EU then it merely undermines its democratic [lack of] credentials further.
As I said people like YOU fill me with fear – democracy [true democracy not the lesser form you are so fond of] is too vital, too important to be wielded by a petite elite of questionable character and to be supported/enforced by those minions [like YOU] that fail to question and check and counter said cabal of corruption, contention and cunning.
Perhaps the political elites of Europe do know better than we the plebeians as to the validity, probity, integrity and necessity of the EU? However, if said conniving petite elite are not prepared to let the people make a true democratic [via a plebiscite] choice [BTW, FTR how would I know what the outcome(s) would be? No-one knows, indeed prognostication is not accepted by modern-day science [FYR] thus your foolish point about same was ill-advised] regarding such a fundamental issue then they are not worthy to represent the people [because they don’t] and too they undermine the ‘Great Project’.
I hope the preceding comments are not too nuanced for you to digest, although I don’t think you’ll care to ruminate for any considerable and considered period of time, perhaps?
Anyways, you still have failed to answer MY question [if you can/dare/are able] regarding the ## EXPLETIVE NOT REPEATED## that I have [apparently according to you] made up?
PS: If the UK population voted to stay ‘in’ the EU then I would abide by the will of the people; however, I would always check on the probity and integrity of the EU and its institutions given its current and previous track record of corruption, malfeasance and obnubilation. Why? BECAUSE its the right thing to do in an allegedly democratic society, DEMOCRACY MUST NEVER BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED.
Actually we agree on a lot of things ;). And I have no problem with referendums on EU membership that is a democratic right as is the referendum in Scotland and I will accept the outcome.
And yes there are different forms of democracy and most democracies in the world are representative ones. I do however agree with you that we should have many more plebescitary elements in not only the EUs but also all national political systems :).
And I am for a Europe which resembles the swiss political system! So my vision of Europe is one which is more democratic than most EU countries are today. Moreover is the EUs political system still undergoing development and I really hope that Mr Schulz will be elected commission president this year because his vision of the EU is a vision of a more Democratic and more transparent Europe.
And when it comes to corruption the UK is not less corrupt than the EU itself.
But I will not accept any comparison between the EU and Nazi Germany nor between EU supporters and Nazi supporters. I actually am quite offended by this outrageous comparison. And believe me as a student of history it is not the same and I am much more concerned about right wing extremists like UKIP blaming floods in England on gay marriage.
Mihail,
I can fully understand your frustrations with the current situation in Bulgaria as a Brit who has lived here since 2005 (before and after EU accession) but I think your gripes should be aimed at your previous National Governments rather than the EU. I have seen many improvements in infrastructure, opportunities for Bulgarian friends of mine and general improvements in many towns throughout Bulgaria since 2007. Bulgaria has not had a good record of EU fund absorbtion because of National Government incompetence and neither a good record of curbing corruption in the judiciary and public institutions. It still lags behind other EU member states when it comes to collecting tax revenue and in my opinion has a stupid 10% flat rate of tax with no tax allowance for the lowest paid workers! This may attract outside investors, but it sure doesn’t help the majority of hard working Bulgarians earning less than 1000leva per month (€500)
Bulgarian people had at every election in the run up to 2007, the opportunity to vote for a party who didn’t want to join the EU. All of the main parties were pro EU and at every election, the elected Government continued towards and eventually realised EU accession.
I believe Bulgaria has benefitted from EU membership and it is the long term opportunities which young Bulgarians will benefit from which is the most important reason to stay in.
Mihail,on what planet are you currently living,you clearly know how to use the internet,so get on it and look up net contributors to the EU,there are three,Germany and France as you so rightly say,and guess what ,the UK is right up there with them.You may not like it MIhail but that’s just tough.The UK makes a massive contribution ,the fact you don’t like it doesn’t change the facts,stop being so daft.
And by the way Mihail ,it’s not the fact you are a racist that bugs me ,it’s the fact that you are a damned ungrateful racist !
And the UK contribution is only very slightly below France ,so get a grip dude
We need to further culturally-diversify our society and add to the overall skill-level of the economy by adding to the EU: Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, Senegal, Ukraine, Russia and Afghanistan.
@Styke Ghertstone
The UK has done that already – its is the continental EU that must catch up.
Well the continent has done that already it is the UL who needs to catch up xD
No really I have lived in a lot of EU countries and especially France has a great relationship to northern Africa and is one of the multiculturalist societies in the world you can see similar things all over Europe while in the UK the home office drives Bans around saying go home!
@MaxK
Yet again you demonstrate a lack of manners – never mind, ’tis almost to be expected from someone who shows undying faith and devotion in an undemocratic organisation and is unable to comprehend the [worrying for the EU] survey results displayed on this very page! LOL!
BTW, you have STILL failed to reveal what ## EXPLETIVE NOT REPEATED## I apparently have made up. Are you sure you read my posts correctly? Did you perchance make a mistake? Or worse?
I am glad to see that you consider yourself a student of history. However, judging by your lack of critique re the EU it is clear that you are unaware of the salutary words of George Santanyana or indeed the 1944 Red House Report written by the Nazis.
If you cannot see the similarity then don’t bother responding to my post – “If my words have offended thee, then blot them out”. [A common EU practice BTW, see below.]
As for your comment about the EU being less corrupt than the UK please provide evidence [IF YOU CAN] as only 1 big EU nation (viz. Germany) is above the UK in the TI Corruption Perceptions Index.
Indeed, the cumulative population of all EU TI countries in the top 20 excluding the UK [which is in the top 20] is c120million, that leaves c320million people of the EU live in countries more corrupt than the UK, ergo the UK is less corrupt than the EU. [I hope the quick and ready Maths is not too difficult for you, a student of history.]
Worse still [for your deluded point of view regarding EU corruption], just like Nazi Germany the EU is now trying to ban the word ‘bankrupt’. Oh err, sounds a bit Nazi/newspeak to me.
As regards your comment about a warped UKIP member, I concur with your sentiments. Although, it must be said that the member in question was at the very least suspended and I’m pretty certain that said member’s wicked views are not in the UKIP manifesto. (You do seem to be making an awful lot of pointless points. Are you a bit of a kobold perchance?)
Anyway MaxK – by all means continue – I’m enjoying repeatedly ‘tearing you a new one’. LOL!!!
Wel first of all I believe that your statement the EU is not an anti-democratic institution is made up as is your connection between it and the Nazis!
You got me wrong there I did never say the UK is more coruppt than the EU it is abou as coruppt as the EU see the resent European report on Corruption(I believe it was released by Eurostat) in which the overall corruption in the EU is about 70% while in Britain it is 65% in Germany for example 59% in Denmark its 20% and in Greece its 99% so overall the UK doesnt do significantly better than the EU average!
Second of all you have yet to answer the questions and statements I have made showing you that the EU parliament is not less democratic than the UK one or the German one indeed!
And overall I think if anything you are relevating the crimes happening in Nazi Germany. As you might now the first thing the Nazis did was to destroy the Unions as far as I am aware the Uk is a bit more famous for doing that than the EU is. And just beacuse that british policy correlates which the ones the nazis used I would never dare to say britan was on its way to a facist dictatorship. The key here leys in ideology and the libeal democratic ideology of the EU and its member states is a completly different one than the ones the Nazis used to massmurder people.
And when it comes to your point that I am not critical enough I just critizized the EU above for not reaching its full democratic potential. But as you may know there are different variations of critizism I might classify you as somone who is anti everything and me who is someone who as long as the political system is a democratic one tries to find a way to improove it.
Could you please provide some evidence that the EU is trying to ban the word bankrupt because i just looked in a french and german dictionary and could still find the word ;)
It would actually take me to long to explain in great detail why the Nazi ideology is nothing like what we have in europe today but be assured if you look in any textbook on the Nazi state its ideology or even its economy you will clearly see the differences!(I am actually suprised that you are not comparing the EU to the UdSSR since Europhobes seem to favour that comparison for whatever reason)
The thing with UKIp you see is that the comment made by that UKIP official(not just a simple member) are not the first outrageous comments made by Party representatives which have saied all kinds of homophobic and racist stuff. So either there is a pattern here or UKIP just attracts crazy people!
PS: could you please provide me with a link to the red house report since i have checked my library and the Internet and have not found a good source nor have I ever heared of it in the years I have studied history.
@MaxK
CORRECTIONS TO YOUR POST
Paragraph 1:
I have TOLD you before that because the EU has not been voted for by ALL member states’ respective plebiscites then it is NOT in the truest sense democratic. In the truest sense it is a vague/diluted/indirect democracy, if not counter-democratic.
Paragraph 2:
Wherever your [fallacious perhaps? it would be nice if you could provide a full source BTW] statistic originates it is clear that 65% corrupt [UK] is better than 70% corrupt [EU]. Ergo the UK is less corrupt than the EU. QED.
BTW, if the EU is 5% more corrupt than the UK and the EU is c8x the population size of the UK, I would say that the EU IS not only more corrupt than the UK but SIGNIFICANTLY more corrupt than the UK.
Paragraph 3:
You cannot prove that which is NOT provable. Please refer to my correction to paragraph 1. Furthermore,the UK [whether parliament, Holyrood, the Welsh Assembly or Stormont] do NOT elect blatant out and out fascists as-is the case in the inferior and warped German election system.
Paragraph 4:
Your lack of comprehension is incomprehensible. :) The way you follow, support and blindingly suck-up to the counter-democratic EU (1 Luxembourgian has TWICE the voting power of a French/British/German person and too the German chancellor’s vote in the other EU ‘arm’ is worth the same as that of the Maltese or Latvian leader – Oops not very democratic eh) is reminiscent of the way the ‘useful idiots’ supported the Nazis up to and during WW2. Fortunately, no horrendous amounts of blood have been spilled yet – oops, correction! Look at all the suicides and lives destroyed by the EU in the PIIGS due to the German-inspired AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG!
Paragraph 5.
You say that the EU has “…not reached its full democratic potential…” ergo it is NOT democratic in the truest sense of the word. Thanks for agreeing with me!!
Paragraph 6.
LOL! Try looking in an English dictionary first for the word ‘bankrupt’ (BTW, it has a very interesting etymology, no really.) With all due respect I found several newspaper articles immediately when I searched using the following search terms “EU wants to ban the word bankrupt”. You can use Google? Can’t you?
Paragraph 7:
By all means please elucidate me with your bountiful explanation.
Paragraph 8:
Who cares about UKIP? Its the “Autonome Nationalisten” and the NPD [or whatever their respective current names are] I am worried about. Not to forget German Police collusion in the assassination of non-whites over a period of many, many years. Hmmm, there is a pattern here. Maybe, perhaps, “Germany” and “politics” are a very fractious combination? What sayest thou? I’d be interested in your opinions regarding same.
Paragraph 9:
As you are not accustomed to issuing successful searches via Google, the following instructions should help:
Open Google.
Type in the following search strings “Nazi foundations of the EU”.
Click the Search icon/button.
Voila!
BTW grasshopper, if you keep asking me questions and yet fail to answer my questions I’m afraid I may well have to consider charging you for my time and expertise. I am quite expensive BTW, £100/minute for questions submitted by pro-EU ‘useful idiots’ or free otherwise.
Paragraph 9:
Hmmm, you have studied history for many years? I find that hard to believe given your inability to search adroitly? I thought British schools were declining in quality BUT my word, your poor show really does “take the biscuit”.
1. The EU institutions were set up in different contracts which were signed by all governments of europe and ratified by all parliaments. You also have not answered my question why the Union of Parliament in your opinion is more legitimate from a scotish perspective than the EU parliament. I am for a more direct democracy and yet I acknowledge that our political system today is a represantitive one on all levels stormont,Westminster,The Hague,Paris,Brussels,Rome you name it yet you are using a double standart to judge Britain and the EU. If I followed your logic threw that would mean every one of those parliaments is ergo non democratic.
2.Aljazeera put a nice interactive map of corruption in the EU online a few weeks ago. Or you just use google it was widley reported ;)
3.Funny enough that hollyrood is actually using the same electoral system Germany uses today;) Morover it is intresting that you consinder an extremly democratic constitution and electoral system in the Weimar republic with plebicitary elements as inferior to a FPTP system with an unelected second chamber. The rise of the Nazis had actually less to do with the electoral system than with destruction of the federal system and the emergency laws as well as with the imense powers the President held.
4. I doubt that I have to take that paragraph seriously look in how federal systems work all over the World at the US for example. And stop your Nazi comparisons it gets rather rediculous when you just throw the word Nazi in every second sentence without it even making any sense.
5. The UK has not reached its full democratic potentiall either is it therefore undemocratic?
6.I read one of the articles and I think the whole debate about what to say debt adjustment or bancrupcy is pretty rediculous. It remidns me of phrases like right to work instead of crash the unions ;)
7. I would recomend you any 6th grade textbook for a start since it seems like you have never opened a book on that topic before. Otherwise I would recomend you to check out some of Wehlers books on that topic. You will find him in pretty much any University library.
8. The right wing in Germany compared to the one in france or the UK is pretty week with less than one percent of the vote in comparison to UKIPs 18%? and its not like those right wing groups are a german phenomenon. I mean there is the EDL and the BNP and those are probably stronger than the german extreme right too.
9.Good that I didnt attend a british school and got a University education.
Well I am sure the EU parliament will drive tho costst down to 0 as they will with calls within the EU.
@MaxK
Where are you?
Have you given up?
Have you forgotten what ##EXPLETIVE NOT REPEATED## I have allegedly made up?
Please come back, I miss your falsehoods, inaccuracies, stupidity and your poor command of English.
:)
Mihail ,there is a universe of difference between a racist and a patriot,Your comment that the UK makes a contribution sounds as if you are denial regarding the fact that the UK is the third largest contributor to the EU budget and its contribution is virtually the SAME as France ,once again ,look at the figures,only fractionally lower than France.So 3 main contributors ,not two as you keep insisting.
As for your point about the UK paying into a club they do not like…well look around you Mihail .there are a good many countries that are net contributors that don’t like the EU club.
Why do you suppose there is a massive increase in political parties across the whole of the EU who wish to leave the EU .
If you truly aren’t aware of this fact you need to do more research.
The EU is past it’s sell by date,was destined to failure from the start and should be disbanded immediately .
Interesting isn’t it that the only countries lining up to join the club are those who would benefit financially .
As for Scotland ,they won’t leave the UK,the situation is completely different.their plan to leave the union is badly flawed and not widely supported.
However governance from Brussels leaves a nasty taste.
This is not about racism Mihail it’s about patriotism and a desire to govern ourselves,no more and no less
the world would be better off without any nations.
@Macburns
I hope you are not proposing global thermal-nuclear ARMAGEDDON?
Out! Romania should not have joined in the first place, it was a huge mistake. The reforms necessary to join leveled the economy.
@Tarquin Farquhar The dicsussions with somone who applies double standarts do different institutions is simply not worth spell and grammar checking any of my comments I would however be delighted to see you follow a discussion on that topic in my native language. I also answered your comment I just forgot to put the K behind Max.
@MaxK
Please elucidate me on your ‘opinion’ regarding your [obvious] mis-interpretation of the concept ‘double standards’.
How about we joust in the Igbo or Hausa languages?
First of all the definition of double standard is:”a rule or principle which is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups” in this case you apply it to different institutions. When it comes to the UK you constantly emphasis that it is legitimate because of contracts and the English civil war which is fair enough even though you have not adressed the Union of Parliaments yet.
But when it comes to the EU a similar process which involves contracts which are ratified by the representatives of the people of each country (which is probably more legitimate and democratic than the Union of Parliaments) is undemocratic.
So in this case you are holding the EU parliament to a different standard than the UK parliament.
That iss just the begining you than accuse the EU of a bad electoral system which is as I pointed out common in federal systems all over the World including the US.
And you draw the conclusion the EU was undemocratic because I said “it has not reached its full democratic potentiall” but you are still implieing that the UK is a democratic state even though it has not reached its full democratic potentiall either.
I could go on for some time with this.
But would you first ellucidate me why you just responden to one of 9 Arguments? Where all the others to waterproof to attack ;) ?
@MaxK
The EU is crooked and anti-democratic – do the Math:
Malta: population c400K Total MEPs = 5
Luxembourg: population c460k Total MEPS = 6
Germany: population c82.4m Total MEPs 99
As regards your 9 arguments – LOL!
1 and 4 FAIL – The EU is UNDEMOCRATIC (Do the Math (preceding), if you can!)
2 FAIL – You already provided your own statistics that proved how more corrupt the EU is compared to the UK.
3 YOU MIGHT HAVE A POINT – However, the EU AUSTERITY BLITZKREIG devised by Germany’s parliament means that the German form of democracy is prone to EXTREMISM. (Hmm, where have I heard that before?)
5 PASS – of course the UK is NOT a true democracy, its a representative democracy. How many times do you have to be told?
6 FAIL – There is NO debate – the EU wishes to engage in NEWSPEAK and too limit free speech. Highly UNDEMOCRATIC!
7 FAIL – You couldn’t provide an explanation.
8 FAIL – Despite the HOLOCAUST and all the anti-Nazi laws post WW2, Germans keep voting for Nazis/similar. THIS IS VERY, VERY WORRYING.
9 FAIL – I never said that you were educated in the UK – I compared poor declining UK educational standards with yours which appear FAR worse.
You got 1/9 BUT I’ve marked you down to 0/9 because I had told you said fact repeatedly and it should have been a ‘given’ in any event.
I shan’t call you DUMKOPF because that would be abusive, so all I shall say is “PLEASE TRY HARDER, TRY TO READ A BOOK (OR A COMIC IF A BOOK IS TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU) and good luck with your history studies!”
PS: Germany MUST be in the EU else WW3 could ensue!
1. Well first of al you should go and study political systems you could start with the star wars one or a carton one i opening a book is to hard for you. Once you have done that please elucidate me why the EU parlimantary split of votes per country is different than the US electoral college. Second of all the Vote was never ment to be exactly proportional but roughly proportional the minimum number of MEPs is simply said to 5 which your parliament agreed to(it actually was 6 before).
And also please proof to me that all consticuencys in the UK have exactly the same amount of voters because if they havent or turnout is lower in one constituency voters might have significantly more influence. But I agree with you I would like to see a more proportional electoral system introduced in the EU like scotish or the german one.
2.I showed that the UK is unsignificantly less corrupt than the EU is on average.
3.Do you mean the Westminster BEDROOM TAX AND AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG on Scotland and Northern Ireland? Austerity has nothing to do with Nazi ideology it is a neo liberal ideology which was by the way loved by people like thatcher.
In fact there is no austerity Blitzkrieg read the Contracts made when the Euro was established. The only extreme right wing Party in germany recieved less than one percent of the vote and is not represented in Parliament and is close to being banned by the constitutiona court go and look up the facts before you simply say everyone is a Nazi.
By the way the geman socialist party die Linke got 25x more votes than the NPD.
4. I repeat this pont since it seems you simply ignored it 4. I doubt that I have to take that paragraph seriously look in how federal systems work all over the World at the US for example. And stop your Nazi comparisons it gets rather rediculous when you just throw the word Nazi in every second sentence without it even making any sense.
5. Well I believe the UK is a true democracy just not a direct one.
6.Yes there is use google. And like I said it would not be the first time politicians rebrand certain phrases like”right to work”.
7.I dont need to you did not provide any evidence for your rediculous Nazi allegations.
I am not going to offend you because I know that you must feel rather confused that facts are challenging the Ideas you have been brainwashed to believe by those UKIP FACIST. I just did that to show you how rediculous it is to just scream NAZI all the time.
@MaxK
Oh, err it seems your a tad annoyed. I have CORRECTED your comments (AGAIN), sorry about that.
1. FAIL
No matter how much you don’t like it, the FACT is that the EU Parliament’s voting system is NOT democratic. Indeed, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights talks about “universal” and “equal suffrage”. So NOT only is the EU parliament counter-democratic, it is ILLEGAL. Why do you support an ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, ANTI-DEMOCRATIC system? Why do you seek to deny me and millions of others their human rights?
2. FAIL
YOUR point still stands – YOU showed statistics that the EU was more corrupt than the UK. Changing your mind now does not paint you in the best light.
3. FAIL
Given the demonic Nazi past of Germany, one is hyper-vigilant about its political scene. (Remember George Santayana’s ‘history’ quote? If you don’t [TRY] and use Google to find out.). With that in mind I am concerned by the relatively large showing of the far-far-right in Germany, the German police assassinations of non-ethnic Germans, the murky past of Mrs Merkel as well as the AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG sanctioned by Mrs Merkel and the German political elite and unleashed upon the poor PIIGS.
BTW, I don’t agree with the bedroom tax either nor do I look favourably upon a very wealthy country like Germany delaying implementation of a minimum wage for years and years and years, thereby impoverishing millions and millions of poor [many happening to be of a non-ethnic German persuasion] people.
4. FAIL
I did not ignore it – IF you can read CAREFULLY you will see that it FAILED for exactly the same reason as given for your 1st point.
5. FAIL
You’ve already stated that the UK is not truly democratic ie ‘its not reached its full democratic potential’. Have you forgotten already?
6. FAIL
What didst thou say/mean?
If you mean that you can use Google then please demonstrate as such as I remain unconvinced given your frequent questions to me and your inability to confirm simple facts.
7 FAIL
Your poor command of English betrays you. Please re-read my posts or even speak to a native English language speaker for advice regarding same. Perhaps you will realise the error of your ways? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
As regards your last paragraph I am flattered – you tried to part-replicate my penultimate paragraph in my previous post. You know what they say: “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”. THANK YOU. :)
PS: Please understand that I actually do like Germany [it is modern, it has low corruption levels and every German I have met has been thoroughly decent] BUT given its wicked and frightening history I am fearful/vigilant of its actions; especially when it pushes the UNDEMOCRATIC and illegal EU in a direction of its own wanting, often ignoring the drastic implications for poorer, smaller EU nations.
PPS: The UK and Germany should work together to create EU 2.0, a more democratic and less corrupt instance of the current highly-flawed/corrupt/undemocratic EU.
I am honestly sick and tired of this by now! I have PROVEN on MULTIPLE occasions now that the EU is as DEMOCRATIC and NOT significantly more CORRUPT than Britain. You on the other hand have repeditly failed to respond to all my points and are still holding the EU and Britain or whatever other nation to a double standart. In addition to that there is universal and equal suffarage in the EU aswell as in the US. The mere fact that MEP are allocated “degressively proportional” does not change that.
And you should also notice that your logicall falancies are not ignored mate. By that I mean eqal suffarage does not mean that every constituency is of exactly the same size it means that every vote is COUNTED equally otherwise like I said the UK would not have equal sufarage.
So go on and portray the democratic country we both live in as an evil dictatorship.
I would look very much forward to a post of you showing everyone here your sureley quiet fantastic command of the french, german or italian language!
I would also advice you to stop your selective reading! I mean simply ignoring the facts which make your arguments utterly INVALID dont make them go away.
And lastly I agree with you and as you might remember I have pointed out my visions for a future Europe before. But you could start with not portraying the EU and Britain as undemocratic.
By the way you should definitly read the definition of equal suffarage before babbling stupid statements like the ones everyone can see above.
But I am actually quiet thankfull for them since they enable everyone visiting this forum to pay witness to your incredibly low PQ.
@Tarquin Farquhar
Since you are not reponding anymore I draw the conclusion that you either must ave been a terrible troll or that you are not responding anymore because I have just destroyed every single one of your illogical arguemnts.
@MaxK
You stated yourself that the EU is a representative democracy i.e. its NOT a true democracy and indeed its ‘power voting’ system is ILLEGAL, IMMORAL and infringes upon the HUMAN RIGHTS of millions.
You stated yourself that the EU was more corrupt than the UK – and that’s just the [flawed] EU corruption we all know about.
‘EU Parliamentary voting power’ [look it up, if you can] destroys UNIVERSAL & EQUAL SUFFRAGE. Thus your point is [as usual] pointless.
As a visible minority in the UK and mindful of history, I object to your inability to accept the truth. Your postings and attitude are highly reminiscent of the way the poor and noble Jews were treated and marginalised in GERMANY, prior to WW2.
IF the EU is NOT democratic, why should I not say so?
Why are you afraid of the truth?
Why do you want to control information that you do not wish to be known?
I thought this kind of behaviour had been consigned to history after the NUREMBERG TRIALS?
If YOU are representative of the mindset of the typical German then Merkel’s AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG feels a lot more significant, onerous and frightening.
Given your disappointing and disturbing mindset, perhaps Germany has not changed for the better as I thought it had. As a result, perhaps the EU would be better off without such a totemic Germany if indeed you are emblematic of same?
@MaxK
Whilst Germans are still being arrested for Nazi war crimes [yes STILL, this very week] EVERYONE must be wary of any extreme-right wing DISTURBING behaviour such as yours.
Your attempts to downplay the IMMORAL “Power Voting System” employed by the EU parliament (which is ILLEGAL) hark back to the days of Goebbels et al in the run-up to WW2.
If your behaviour mirrors that of Nazi propaganda then do not be surprised if wary and fearful people draw apposite correlations.
BTW, if you are capable of using Google [you should be, now that I have given you instructions] TRY and understand the concept of “DEGRESSIVE PROPORTIONALITY” wherein the voters of little countries have more voting power (against THE INTERNATIONAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS BTW) than the voters of larger countries. :)
There IS such a thing as “TRUE DEMOCRACY”? Google returned about 93,800,000 results regarding same. :)
Yes, you can interpret your statistics all you like – if 5% is not significant to you then can I have 5% of your salary please, if indeed you are working or better still would you please give it to the “Commonwealth War Graves Commission” now that you are in the UK. :)
Given that you regard the EU v UK difference in rate of corruption as insignificant despite the EU being c8 times larger than the UK AND too you appear unable to comprehend the lack of voting equality in the EU parliamentary voting system then perhaps “SUMS” ain’t your strong point. :)
Furthermore, NOT everyone can vote in the EU either – those deemed ‘mentally incompetent’ [hmmm, for some reason I have a strong inclination to include you in said category! LOL] are not allowed to vote for example.
The fact that the UK voting system is not very democratic and indeed the EU and USA voting systems are even less democratic than the UK’s should NOT mean that one accepts the STATUS QUO. Unless, of course YOU personally benefit from imposing inequality on other human beings. A bit like the NASTIES [did I spell that correctly?] prior to WW2. :)
I enjoy jousting with you and indeed educating you whether its Google, Maths, Politics and indeed even honesty.
Indeed, you are allowing me to inform many people regarding the ILLEGAL and COUNTER-DEMOCRATIC EU Parliamentary voting system that overrides the HUMAN RIGHTS of millions of people in the EU.
Indeed if the EU was perchance taken to court for its GROSS infringement of HUMAN RIGHTS then many if not all EU treaties would/could be invalidated… oh, err.
BTW, I don’t want the EU to expire, I want it to change from its current undemocratic and corrupt system to a better system, one where people with points of view akin to yours are challenged and where democracy is challenged and too protected.
If the EU with its inferior form of democracy does not improve, then my country [the UK] would be better off outside the EU.
@MaxK
LOL!
As regards your last post methinks [paraphrasing Sir Arthur Conan Doyle] you have “PREMATURELY EJACULATED” dear boy!! :)
Every sigle time I prove wrong you simply ignore your logical faults. First you claimed that the EU hasnt got equal and universal suffarage at least it seems you draw the conclusion that it was simply wrong.
I will ignore your stupid Nazi comparisons this time since I have already explained how unresponsible you use those terms and accusations. I actually believe you should be ashamed of yourself for relavating a disgusting dictatorship to a democratic institution. You should honestly once open a history book and look at Nazi Ideology and how they came to power.
I am not sure if you did not read my comments I have been saying that the EU should reform its institutions in order to become more democratic and I believe it is therefore necisarry to have a stronger European parliament and a political system like switzerland. However claiming the EU is not a democratic institution is ridiculous.
Like I said true democracy is an arbitrary concept open to debate and interpretation as are concepts like freedom democracy ect. different Ideologies use them in different ways to express different believes. You should really open a book on political concepts.
As far as I can recall the UK still doesnt allow prisoners to vote which is a far more outrageous infringement on human rights.
The UK is one of the countries hindering the further democratization of Europe by pushing for enlargement of the EU instead of pushing for a deepening of european integration. The UK government is opposed to the Idea of a stronger European democracy since they dont want to give up a certain part of their sovereignty in order to create this strong European democracy.
@MaxK
Your meandering, maniacal, musings are a great source of merriment mein freund. Thank you! :)
Anyway, let me correct you yet again (doh|!) as you are prone to [paraphrasing Sir Arthur Conan Doyle] IMMATURE EJACULATIONS. :)
Paragraph 1:
Your ‘typo’ [an evident Freudian slip no-less] reveals your cognitive dissonance regarding what you would like to be true and what is actually true – namely, the voters in small EU countries have a greater voting power than voters in large EU countries. Such an UNEQUAL voting system is ILLEGAL and contravenes the INTERNATIONAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS. Oops.
Paragraph 2:
You did NOT ignore said comments. LOL! BTW, did you manage to pay 5% of your salary to the “Commonwealth War Graves Commission” as I suggested? After all you yourself said that 5% is an INSIGNIFICANT figure. :)
Paragraph 3:
I AM sure that you are NOT reading ALL of MY comments. However, I agree with you that the EU parliamentary system must be reformed BECAUSE it is UNDEMOCRATIC, UNFAIR, IMMORAL & ILLEGAL.
Paragraph 4:
You previously said ” There is no such thing as a “true” democracy”, I am glad to see that you have changed your mind, although I have a sneaky suspicion that you have been “economique avec la verite”. :)
Paragraph 5:
Hmmm, not as bad as Germany wherein c7million people voted for parties that did NOT meet the 5% representation threshold. Did you know that 100,000 [UK prisoners without votes] is a better state of affairs than 7,000,000 [Germans denied voting representation]? Doh, those ‘sums’ are letting you down again. :)
Paragraph 6:
I think you’ll find that you are a bit ‘behind the times’ on your assumption old chap. David Cameron did a ‘180’ on EU enlargement last year. IF the ILLEGAL & IMMORAL & UNFAIR EU parliamentary voting system is CORRECTED then I’m personally all for EU enlargement especially for big hitters like Turkey.
BTW, for some reason Germany is NOT too keen on letting the Turks join the EU. I pray and hope that its not a sign of something more deep-rooted, given Germany’s ‘difficult’ Nazi past and forever blighted* cultural heritage.
Indeed, if Germany continues its current path, viz.:
AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG,
ANTI-TURKISH SENTIMENT &
TACIT POLICE COLLUSION IN THE ASSASSINATION OF MANY NON-GERMANS
then perhaps Germany should be kicked out of the EU and Turkey should be let in? Just a thought…
*
I am not sure if Germany [a great country BTW, in a lot of ways better than the UK and indeed most EU nations] will ever shake free of its horrendous past.
Perhaps like the EU, it could engage in a bit of Newspeak and do a bit of name-changing. I know Germans are renowned for their sense of humour [???] so here are a few suggestions for name changes [game changers!] that might deflect “auslanders” from associating Germans with their ‘difficult’ past:
Fuhroland
Farterland
Nonauslanderland.
:)
First of all since YOU seam to be at least somewhat familiar with psychology I am sure you are familiar with the concept of PROJECTION, which your comment especially regarding PREMATURE EJACULATION seems to be a perfect example of.
1. Evne though I am quiet pleased that you at least paid some attention in your highschool psychology class you probaply should have paid a bit more attention in politics.
Like I said Voters in small constituencies or constituencies with low turnout have equally more power, the US system works exactly like this. And like I said the Idea was to give countries a minimum amount of MEPs so it is not just France Germany, Italy and the UK making all the decisions . Morover I have explained AGAIN and AGAIN that the EU has EQUAL and UNIVERSAL suffarage and that the EU electoral system like the US one is totally LEGAL and DEMOCRATIC.
You sound like a crazy imperialist demanding that small countries better have nothing to say. And as I sai I think the USA would have changed there election systems in the last few hundred years if it were illegal!
2. Have you figured out yet that when it comes to a relative statistic like the one I told you about the population doesnt make a difference as you claimend.
3.Like I said it is LEGAL,DEMOCRATIC and very much MORAL!
4. Please stop your SELECTIVE READING AND QUOTING I said: “There is no such thing as a “true” democracy since and as a political concept it is arbitrary and open to interpretation socialists interpret true democracy completly different than conservatives or liberals.You are showing off your low PQ again by claiming that true democracy can be defined.”
Your response was there are google results for true democracy do you know acknowledge your poor logic ?
5. Get your numbers right! Germany has 61.8m people who are eligible to vote 71.5% was the turnout about 11% voted for either the AFD the Pirates or a different Party which did notmeet the treshhold. That amounts to 4.8m people not 7 million as you claim. By the way I looked it up NATIONAL LEGISLATION determins if mentally ill people can vote it has nothing to do with EU.In the UK for example they can vote if they are in custody but not if they are detained in other countries it is linked to legal capacity.
The UK FPTP electoral system is even more UNFAIR the liberals got 23% of the vote which would be 150 seats in parliament in reality they only got 57 the Conservatives got 36% which should be 234 seats in reality they got 307 seats.
So as you might see the UK electoral system is far more unproportional and in theory your party could get 49% of the vote and not gain a single seat! So tory voters have multiple times the influence of liberal voters in parliament this is a power voting system!
6. The British right wingers got much more votes than german right wing parties. Your theory that facisim is deep routed in ones nationality is racist and scientifically outdated. I believe I dont need to remind you of all the british racial supremicists like Cecil Rhodes.Germans are probaply the people which have the most critical view on their own history and have actually learned there lesson!
I for example am very much in facour of letting turkey join the EU.And blaiming the german governments position on turkey on an anti turkish sentiment is not only rediciolous but also shows that you have no idea abou foreign policy at all!
Please dont make factually wrong statements as claiming there was police collusion in the NSU scandal!
And at least Germans dont have the same anti-eastern european sentiment a lot of british Conservatives seam to have!
I like your Newspeak calling Responses and wrong quotes “Corrections” while not even getting the FACTS straight!
@MaxK
Au contraire mon amis – I might find your posts amusing but I would never consider ‘hooking up’ with someone so intellectually BANKRUPT as yourself – am I allowed to use that word any more given the EU attempts at newspeak?. I am however flattered by your interest in me, thanks, but NOOOOOO thanks! :)
1…It is clear that you suffer from dyscalculia – given your inability to comprehend that if a country like Malta with a population c421k has 6 MEPs and a country like Germany with a population c80M has 99 MEPS then an individual Maltese person has more voting power than an individual German ergo UNEQUAL SUFFRAGE. QED.
2…You chose to provide your own self-damning statistic – I just chose to damn you further. :)
3…WRONG! Sorry to highlight your dyscalculia BUT its effects are clearly evident.
4…You said “There is no such thing as a “true” democracy” – the fact that Google returns millions of hits regarding same disproves your statement. Just as goblin’s do not physically exist, the notion of same does exist. I REST MY CASE! :)
5…Again, your poor Maths skills betray you. Using your numbers 11% of 61.8M is when rounded to the nearest integer c7M. Hahahahahaha! Oh and let me correct YOU – yet again. In the UK, mentally incompetent types (don’t worry dyscalculia doesn’t count) are not allowed to vote in UK or indeed your beloved EU elections. BTW, IF Germany dropped its 5% threshold stipulation then I would state that the German voting system could possibly be as good as if not better than the UK’s. BUT, I suppose given Germany’s heritage [Weimar Republic et al] perhaps dropping the threshold is a bad idea for Germany and more importantly for the rest of the world. After all we don’t want to ‘let loose the dogs of war’ again, do we?
6…If the German constitution enforces a 5% voting representation threshold so as not to encourage another WEIMAR REPUBLIC then it is clear that Germany is fearful of its own deep-rooted prejudices and so it should be particularly given that WW2 murderous Nazis were arrested just this week AND too that SEARCHLIGHT the anti-FASCIST organisation’s article entitled “Germany: Nazi terror and state collusion” [try Googling it]; reveals the deep-rooted racism and police and secret service collusion that allowed at least 10 Germans [who had foreign origins] to be assassinated. ERGO, my comment was FACTUALLY CORRECT and you seem to be in a state of denial about some of the ‘issues’ that pervade Germany. I think you’ll agree a bit of negative sentimentality by some disgraceful UK folk toward central/eastern EU states is much more preferable to state-sponsored HOMICIDE.
BTW:
If you are in favour of Turkey joining the EU why did you slate David Cameron when you [incorrectly] thought he was still in favour of EU enlargement? Is your memory failing too? ;)
Writing as a BRITISH man of colour I too am not a particular fan of Cecil Rhodes BUT at least he did not precipitate a global war like a certain ADOLF HITLER.
FTR, I vote for the person NOT the party, thus your repeated references to UK political parties are risible.
Well interistingly enough it seems that you like to accuse people of learning difficulties like dyscalculiar and it also looks lie you like to make fun of them. And I am honestly not sure if it is projection again this time or just pure ignorance?
Well either way you are ignoring the facts again.
1. Look up the definition of EQUAL suffarage it doesnt mean every representative has to represent the same amount of people it means every vote is counted equally and since you are only voting for the canidates in your region it is counted equally!
Since you did not understand that from my party comparison I will make it easier for you to understand the general election constitueny Na h-Eileanan an Iar has an Electorate of c21k while the constituency Isle of Wright has got c110k that means that the people of Na h-Eileanan an Iar or the western Isles have 5.24x the power of the people of the Ile of wright. And the people from Shettland would have 3x the power of the people of East Ham ect.
So according to your very own logic that means that the UK system has the same errors the EU system has! Why not fix those first by introducing a better electoral system like Germany or Scotland which are much more proportional and in which you are by the way not only voting for a party but also for a person since you have got two votes if a canidate from a party under the 5% treshhold gets elected he gets into parliament no matter what and if three get in the 5% treshhold does not apply for this party!
2+3. Like I said I think you have a few issues with projection!
4. Lets font fight about semantics I even though I made my case and I still think I am right!
5.You are again SELECTIVELY READING I said 61.8m are ELIGEBLE to vote the turnout was about 70% and 70% of 61.8m are about 43m voters and 11% of 43m is about 4.7m ! I could use a quote you have used quiet repeditevly so far but I dont think that would be necissary!
The teshhold is there to ensure that te german parliament has a situation like Italy has nowadays where all the small parties make it nearly impossible to govern! Germany could have introduced a FPTP system like the UK but it ignores almost half the votes and doesnt get the proportions right (thats what I showed you earlier with the Party example).
Thats why Germany as Scotland has a System in which you got two votes one for a regional party list and one for a person! Parties need to get 5% to get into parliament or need to win 3 constituencies which disables the 5% treshholf ro them!
However any canidate can get directly elected into parliament regardless the 5% treshhold so it is like the british system but it gets the proportions right and doesnt give people who vote for the liberals less power than people who vote conservative!
6. It has nothing to do with fear it is a simple improvement of the very democratic weimare republic constitution.
To your whole Nazi point I have said before I find it disrespectfull of you to compare it to modern day germany and you shuld be ashamed for that!
However Nazis in germany are still sentenced to prison that is true and it shows how determined german prosecutors still are to put them in jail for their disgusting crimes. The spotlight article was very interesting thanks especially since I never heared about the link to Britain before and also interesting that it took a German investigation to unviel the British Nazis!
Overall though I would hope you abstain from Nazi comments in the future they are inapropiate. And I am happy that we have the EU which protects us from terrible Wars like WWI and II!
PS: You might vote for the person most of the people in this country dont really care as long as he is in the right party!
@MaxK
If you are going to debate, debate HONESTLY, please.
I just assume you are Mr. Farquar who is trolling again you seem to use the same WRITING patterns as him ;).
@MaxK
Hell hath no fury like a man scorned. :) Try to not take it so hard, everyone gets rejected every now and then old chap. x
1…My point stands.
2…Your OWN statistics proved MY point.
3…My point stands.
4…You may think you are right [and thinking is clearly not one of your strong points] BUT you are actually wrong.
5…My point stands.
6…Improvement of the democratic process? LOL! Germany allows white groups like the Danish party to get special voting treatment BUT won’t apply same for the Turkish party. As regards UK Nazis they too are poor specimens of humanity – but not as bad as the German Police and the German Secret Service that colluded in the assassination of many non-Aryan Germans.
BTW, please do NOT seek to DICTATE the content of my posts – I will NOT kow-tow to FASCISTIC behaviour! I had hoped that the leopard had changed its spots. VERY, VERY DISAPPOINTING. :(
I am sorry to have to say it BUT if Germany cannot get over its horrible past then maybe Germany should be expelled from the EU.
PS: Your PS was indecipherable, incoherent and incomprehensible. Succinctly put your PS was BS.
What happened son did you run out of arguments?
I am not sure how you got the whole fancy and rejected Idea but I assume it is projection again you should really go and see a therapist!
1. HAHA there is no point you simply couldnt do the math and I could but dont worry I am sure you wil get over it. And you can check the figures I mentioned feel free to look it up it is the TRUTH even though you seem to have a rather deluded concept of that word!
2.The margin of error is higher than the 5% so yes it is insignificant I am actually quiet happy if it werent that would mean that germany was significantly less corrupt than britain.
3. You didnt make any xD you just claimend I had dyscalcliar!(projection remember)
4.Read a book on political theory that will change your mind!
5.Is that the one were you could not figure out how much 70% of 61.5m people were ?
6 You are getting more and more rediculous what have I or the EU to do with germanies past? WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF IT? And more importantly I have allways just given you FACTS and FIGURES and have allways responded to all your posts while you engaged in selective reading and simply screaming Nazi because you assume that I am German!
And that assumption is fair enough but I dont need any ignorant wee boy who seemingly knows nothing about history politics or international relations to tell me anything about my history. We accepted our history a long time ago and have delt with it. We are know one of the freeest countries in the World and we managed to ensure peace in europe.
I take by the way deep offence in you calling me a faschist as someone who has proudly stood up against neonazis on the streets together with the antifa I must ask you if you have lost contact to reality?
If I look at your uninformed ignorant posts with a lot of half-truthes and some stuff which is simply wrong. I come to the conclusion that you seem just so obsessed with fascisim that I simply have to ask you this question are you a fascist Mr. Tarquin Farquard? And please stop being so AUTHORITARIAN and demand that we expell everyone from the EU!
PS: I repeat my qustion how are your Nazi allusions relevant to the discussion about the EU and how is the danish minority party relevant?
If I wanted to explain that to your shortly there is a peace of germany where danish people are the majority and they speak danish like there is a german part of belgium and poland and because they cant archieve the 5% hurdle they get a few spcial privileges in the regional parliament!
I am not sure Germany would recognize a turkish minority party in principal but I have never heared of any with a substantiall size except BIG which seems to have disapeared! Moreover most of my turkish friends in Germany are involvet in politics and none of them in a turkish party but all of them in one of the major parties!
@MaxK
Oh err, I feel your wrath borne of rejection – displacement perhaps? You need to get out more, there are plenty more fish in the sea – chin up!
1…The EU parliamentary system was deliberately constructed to favour the votes of the smaller countries ergo it does NOT represent universal EQUAL suffrage. ie it is ILLEGAL.
2…You provided the statistics. You damned yourself. You then tried to downplay the high level of corruption in the EU, Then when that didn’t work you now try to pull the ‘margin of error’ trick. Hmmm, I doubt your veracity dear sir.
3…Your dyscalculia means that when presented with numbers you are unable to comprehend that the EU parliamentary system is one of UNEQUAL UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE. My point stands.
4…I might take you up on that, is Hitler’s Second book up your street AND why are you fighting over semantics?
5…You provided the statistics. You damned yourself.
6…Germany dictates what the EU does – whether its the AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG imposed on the PIIGS or exploiting the low-value of the Euro at the expense of the bulk of Fuhroland – I mean Euroland.
As regards your FASCIST comment, I don’t think any German fascist group would accept me given my non-Aryan dark brown appearance. LOL! But of course I told you that already. Hmmm, I wonder why you would think a person of African heritage would want to join a German fascist group? I don’t think you are a racist because you say you have Turkish friends, but then again you have LIED repeatedly on this forum.
I AM obsessed with challenging fascists – something I would have been locked up for if I was alive in Germany in former times.
Thankfully, Germany is much improved, its a highly respected country and in many ways there is a lot to admire and respect regarding many, many facets of Germany and German life – for example your Royal family that live in Buckingham Palace. :)
However, YOUR postings do a great dis-service to the land of Beethoven, Mozart and Wagner. Oops, sorry forget Wagner he’s a bit of a … well, YOU know what!
BTW, the fact that YOU are unaware of something [you seem especially weak in History, Politics, Maths, Psychology, Logic, English etc etc] does NOT mean that same does not exist. You would do well to remember that my petit chou or should that be sauerkraut – take your pick. :)
Oh my god you are just constantly projecting your own feelings and failures on to others.
5. Don’t try to change history here I said that 11% percent of the votes in Germany were
1,No the EU parliament was set up to represent the people of Europe while protecting the interests of smaller countries! And the EU parliament already decided that it will reform the number of MEPs so the regions have a more equal population. However you still don’t understand the definition of EQUAL and UNIVERSAL suffrage! I think you have some a kind of learning resistance otherwise you would have understood the parallels between the size of constituenies and countries. And why both don’t impact the concept of EQUAL suffrage so please look up the definition!
2. It is not a trick but a statistical reality.
3.According to you every democracy in the world which uses constituencies has got unequal suffarage do you not understand this?
4. Because their is democracy but if you claim you know true democracy this is the kind of newspeak used by fascists!
5. I didn’t provide statistics I corrected your wrong mathematic results. I is not my fault that you are to uneducated to multiply 61.5m by 0.7.
6.Read the European contracts you are proving again that you don’t no anything. And like I said you are relavating the death of thousands of innocent people by comparing the Nazi regime to common EU policy.
Your last comments show again that you first of all don’t know the ideological differences between facisim and Nazism neither do you know that fascism is Italian and spanish.
So you are projecting again when you accuse me of being ignorant.
@MaxK
Hmmm, your erroneous sequencing of numbers highlights your inability to handle same and indeed inability to handle Mathematical concepts.
1…Your ‘protecting the interests of smaller countries’ comment [leading to ‘Power Voting’ i.e. ‘1 man 10 votes’] supports my assertion that there is NOT universal EQUAL suffrage in the EU . :)
2…My point was that once you had been proven WRONG, you then PERCHANCE decided to ’embellish’ [lie perhaps?] your own initial statistics in a bid to try and support your fallacy. :)
3…Your illusory premise is flawed for I have not used the word CONSTITUENCY until this posting. Please try to stop putting words into my mouth. Besides, the EU parliamentary voting system is UNFAIR – you yourself have intimated as such – see point 1.
4…You clearly do not understand the concept of Newspeak – qualifying a noun is NOT pertinent to said Orwellian concept. Doh!
5…You have made a mistake sir – YOU did provide the statistics – I then used your OWN statistics to prove my point. This was a doubly heart-warming proof for me as YOU actually gave me the ammunition to destroy your illogic. :)
6…Bit of advice old chap, one should never seek to undermine another if one is unable to discern the difference between “know” and “no”. LOL!
BTW, since the EU REGIME is founded on an illegal voting system and too the AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG propounded by [NASTY?] Germany has crippled so many EU nations and killed many EU citizens – I think its only fair that such comparisons are made – WE DARE NOT REPEAT the horrors of history.
Your fascism point is WRONG. The following erudite sites identify Nazism as a form of fascism:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nazism
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/nazism
I find your lack of knowledge on this subject [and your Spanish slur] ALARMING. Do they not teach these issues in German schools? This is very CONCERNING.
Anyway, on topic:
Despite the fact that I admire Germany a lot, if Germany continues to ‘beggar thy neighbour’ if not ‘bugger thy neighbour’ via its harsh AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG then perhaps its time for Germany to be expelled from the EU.
I sincerely hope that Germany sees sense and it does not come to pass.
1. EQUAL suffarage means that every vote is counted equally and in a general election you dont have 5 votes because you have a bigger house! It does not however mean that the number of voters representate by their representatives has to be equal.It is quiet astonishing to me that you do not understand this simple concept.
And even if I accepted your premise that it allways have to be exactly the same number voting for a representative and anything else is power voting than the UK Parliament would engage in exactly the same power voting due to constituency sizes as I EXPLAINED to you above(Western Isles c20k : Isle of Wright c100k = means Western Isles 5x the power of Isle of wright according to you!). And that would mean in conclusion that every country using constituencies can not have EQUAL suffarage according TO YOUR OWN LOGIC!
It would be POWER voting if one MEP had 10 votes and everyone had else had one but that is not how it is so there is NO power voting system in the EU!
2. You can interpret a 5 point margin as you like especially since it is the EU average. by the way Denmark scores 45% better than Britain I mean dont get me wron I am very happy that the UK is doing better than average but as longs as corruption is still a problem in the UK I don’t think we here in the UK are entiteled to judge anyone else for it!
3.STOP putting words into my mouth I never claimed you used the word constituencies. YOU claim the EU uses a “power voting system” and “unequal suffarage” because there are less people per MEP in one country than in another I explained that unde your premise it is eually unequal that people on the Western Isles have 5x more power than peopel on the Isle of Wright. And that was just one example.
So if we accept YOUR PREMISE every electoral system which uses Constituencies therefore must be unequal since it is imposssible to have constituencies which are all equally sized and have an equal turnout.
So either YOUR premise is WRONG or as I said every system using constituencies must be unfair!
4.Qualifing a noun can fundementally change its nature that was my point and I am very much familiar with George Orwell!
5.You claimed 7m people voted for paries not meeting the treshhold in Germany.
I explained that there were 61.5m voters a 70% turnout and 11% voted for partis not meeting the treshhold(which makes baout4%)! You respos was and I am quoting here:
TARQUIN FAQUAR:
“Again, your poor Maths skills betray you. Using your numbers 11% of 61.8M is when rounded to the nearest integer c7M. Hahahahahaha!”
So you either intentionally IGNORED the turnout or you weren’t clever enough to figure out that it makes an impact which would not suprise me looking at your poor math skills!
6.You can make fun of it all day I dont care!
7.Dont put words into my mouth I said facisim and Naziism are not the same Nazism is a specific kind of facisim. So if you are a Nazi you are a facist but if you are a facist you are not necisseraly a Nazi there are ideological differences!
I was simply pointing out that you dont seem to be familiar with this fact and are not familiar that it did not originate in Germany!
I am probaply a thousand times better informed abou German and British history! But dont wory “old chap” I am sure your local council has a good adult education programm!
Please tell me when I used a spanish slur?
What you are doing here is by the way is the only nasty thing you constantly go off topic and provoke people by claiming they have to be homosexualls you claim that Greece and Eastern european countries are all completly corupt! You claim that every German is nasty and that germans by their very nature are facists!
You also claim that the UK is a perfect multicultural society while the continent has to catch up and so on and so on.
So what YOU really seem to be is a BRITISH SUPREMACIST dont get me wrong I am not claiming you are racist or even homophobic even though some of your quotes point to that but YOU are certainly an EXTREME NATIONALIST.
I am from the Netherlands but i live in Catalunya(Spain), a while back the European Union had sayed that the strugle for Catalunya becoming independent is a internal Spanish afair. just a few days ago a person from the EU from Luxemburg ( Viviane Reding) sayed that its better for Catalunya if it would stay inside of Spain.
Spain is threatening Catalunya that if they want to go Independend they should go out of the EU.
In the first place if i look around i think not behing in the EU is better for any country during this crisis, just look at the countrys not behing in the EU and the rest that are in the EU, it seems all those not in are richer countrys with less problems in there economy.
Secondly, A person like her behing a comisioner for justice for the EU can say something like that not knowing what realy goes on here in Spain.
I just like to say that if that so called EU realy is interested in having a federal europe it should first get away with those big countrys that seem to have the whole power in europe and devide europe in smaller countrys that have an equal saying in the parlement.
To my opinion there are just 2 countrys at this moment that realy have a saying in what happends in europe and that is a realy bad thing.
Probably i am just writing here for my own feelings cause i think even this debate section is not even readed by persons of the Commity.
Greatings from a very disapointent person.
Two countries ? Did you not know that East and West Germany have united Jeroen ?
:)
MaxK
1…WRONG. Your analogy is NOT relevant.
2…Have you given your insignificant [your word LOL] 5% salary to the “Commonwealth War Graves Commission” yet?
3…Please TRY to understand the IMMORAL & ILLEGAL concept of POWER-VOTING before responding next time.
4… It is clear that my postings are a bit too complex for you to understand.
5…German court removes ILLEGAL & IMMORAL German voting threshold:
http://www.dw.de/german-court-scraps-3-percent-eu-parliament-election-threshold/a-17457396
I REST MY CASE. J
6… Germany has changed mostly for the better since its Nazi past – so you need not be embarrassed by trying to be a wannabee Brit. Accept your heritage, warts and all mein freund.
7…I was talking about “Fascism and Nazism” NOT “facisim and Naziism” LOL!
I am afraid that the remainder of your meandering, maniacal, musings were just that. Yawn!
@Kevin
VERY funny!
@MaxK
We must be EVER vigilant…
http://www.dw.de/european-body-criticizes-germany-on-racism/a-17457046
http://www.dw.de/german-court-scraps-3-percent-eu-parliament-election-threshold/a-17457396
OTHERWISE… well you know…
QED
:)
We must be vigiland and in Germany were we dont have
Government vans driving around telling immigrants to go home we know that.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537834/UKIPs-vile-Mandela-slave-rant-exposed-New-racism-storm-following-remarks-former-South-African-President-murdered-teenager-Stephen-Lawrence.html
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/16/uk-britain-poll-idUKBREA0F0DP20140116
By the way the treshhold was unconstitutional because not every EU country has got it. The 5% one for national elections is completly legal.
What would be illegal however is the UKs power voting system which leaves smaller parties with a forth of the seats they should have according to the ovrall vote!
By the way because I am vigilant I have noticed that YOU clearly have a RACIST sentiment against Bulgarians and east europeans calling them uncivilized and underdeveloped and YOUclearly are a RACIST National SUPREMACIST.
@MaxK
We must be VIGILANT in these German inspired – AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG times especially for countries with a history of RACISM, FASCISM and DENIAL like Germany.
FTR, I too don’t agree with the vans of which you spake – but lets be realistic said unsavoury actions were NOT enshrined in law as were the exemplars I documented a la Germany. :)
As regards your RACIST ramblings, babblings, blitherings and blatherings as I am 50% caucasian your comments are ill-informed, ill-founded and just plain ‘ill’. LOL!
On point (something you keep failing to address):
Given Germany’s terrible/horrible/horrendous/despicable/perverted/diabolical history and its increasingly disturbing DISCRIMINATORY practices and realities [sometimes resulting in state-supported RACIST homicides (again!)] perhaps the EU would be better OFF without Germany?
I quite like Germany as you know, BUT given its illegal democratic practices, its history and its AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG – I grow increasingly alarmed and perhaps EU expulsion might suit all parties better.
Yeah especially we germans must be vigilant since we have LEARNED our lessons from history and are not in denial at all unlike the US or the UK which still today say there reclass RACIST colonial EMPIRE was justified.
I dont know if you know that it is officialy a raison d’État of Germany to stop something like the Holocaust from ever happening again!
By the way it is a political decision to do austerity not a German one. I mean the UK does exactly the same with their AUSTERITY WAR ON SCOTLAND where a giant majority is opposed to it while the FISCAL DICTATOR OSBORN tells them that they are an inferior part of the UK and have bo rights to any assets!
By the way germany is more committed to the european idea of peace democracy and freedom in a social market than the UK which only wants to have the benefits of europe but none of the commitments I can understand why Charles de Gaul vetoed the first attempt to join Europe looking at the IMPERIALISTS like you who clearly are extreme NATIONAL SUPREMACISTS who make racist comments about east europeans calling them”underdeveloped” ect!
I dont care about your ethnicity! Everyone is equal to me I dont care about there religious affiliation ethnicity nationality or gender unlike you!
I did by the way never claim you were a racist or a white supremacists. Being british is a nationality not an ethnicity! And I think YOU are a BRITISH SUPREMACIST.
@MaxK
I repeat – the EU MUST be VIGILANT of Germany particularly given Germany’s unique DIABOLICAL past record and too its current DISTURBING illegal laws, its AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG, its state-supported RACIST ASSASSINATIONS etc etc etc.
As regards your ‘reason of state’ NONE-point, please remember a piece of paper doth NOT a holocaust prevent! Please search using the terms “Neville Chamberlain Adolf Hitler WW2” for elucidation.
On the subject of race and your delusional and irrational British Supremacist argument consider this… most people in the world would be far, far, far, far, more fearful of a GERMAN RACIST than any other type of supremacist.
Anyway, back to the topic in hand – Germany has made many efforts to address its hateful/horrid/horrendous/homicidal past BUT given its AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG, its state-supported RACIST ASSASSINATIONS, its ILLEGAL democratic system and its failure to record and investigate RACIST attacks AND TOO denialists and apologists like YOU, I am afraid Germany should be suspended from the EU until the likes of yourself are permanently consigned [metaphorically] to the dustbin of history.
The media outlet vice did did an INVESTIGATION into WHICH european countries are the most racist ones here there results http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/guide-to-european-racist-leagues !
And different reports confirm that. And hell even friends of mine from the UK who lived in Germany say the UK is MORE RACIST!
You costant attacks of the German people for a political ideology which in Germany (I dont know about thew UK) is long gone just shows your entire disregard for facts!
But I guess YOU as a BRITISH SUPREMACIST with your FISCAL FUHRER OSBORN and DAVID CAMERON who tries to FORCE treaty change on
all other EU members by using GESTAPO techniques and THREATINING to veto everything. I am by the way stating it like this because you seem to think that as long as you put supid things in capital letters they are true
PS: please ellucidate me about your understanding of the vice report!
and iif you dont understand sarcasm feel free to actually look up a few reports on racism i would recomend http://www.enar-eu.org/Page_Generale.asp?DocID=15294
@MaxK
Media outlet ‘vice.com’ [as regards its verisimilitude, accuracy and respect, note, the clue is in the name] versus an apparently respected German newspaper AND an EU investigative body @
http://www.dw.de/european-body-criticizes-germany-on-racism/a-17457046
I REST MY CASE! ;)
BTW, Germany MUST always be scrutinised, we OWE it to the millions of Jews, Roma, homosexuals, gays, non-whites etc etc that were KILLED, SLAUGHTERED, HUMILIATED and DESTROYED by Germany.
We must always be VIGILANT, Germany has made great POSITIVE strides BUT given your RACIST postings, your DENIALISM and your APOLOGIES, one wonders if Germany can ever throw off it’s despicable/destructive/demonic/damning heritage.
People like you with your RACIST rantings, your DEMONIC, defensive, diatribes and your uninformed/unrepresentative/unbalanced utterances only serve to worry multi-racial Greater Europeans (ie continental Europe + the UK & Eire) like me.
On point: your sickening/sour/sordid/sorry defense of Germany and its AUSTERITY BLITZKRIEG, government supported RACIST HOMICIDES and its illegal ANT-DEMOCRATIC laws merely push people to question whether or NOT the EU should countenance Germany as a member of the EU.
The stain of Nazi germany is one that even diluted by the other 27 EU nations AND time is still TOO poisonous a concoction to respect.
Germany, despite its apparent efforts must be SUSPENDED from the EU, for the betterment of ‘all bar one’ namely DEUTSCHLAND.
I sincerely hope that you can understand the SHEER fear that Germany past and indeed [although with great subtlety] Germany present instill on the Rest of the World to this day.
BTW, if you want to be a Brit, I can understand but know this:
British people are VERY, VERY tolerant when compared to Nazi germany
AND
IF you can change your German spots then you will NOT need to be a ‘British wannabee’ – instead accept and respect the GREAT heritage that Germany has to offer EXCEPT of course for WW1 and WW2.
I will not be voting for the EU but I notice…. my choice not to vote falls into ”other”
Unfortunately, we have decided to close this discussion thread as it has drifted off topic and there too many personal attacks taking place.
Nop but my country would be better of with the UK outside the EU ;)
no
Latvian here. Nope
Yes – Bulgaria.
Yes, outside the whole continent. Italy
Of course
Yes and out of nato warmongers association too.
.
We are British so we will be just fine without the antidemocratic EU.
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-12-15/poll-more-britons-favour-leaving-eu/
Yes
No!
Without a doubt the UK would be so much better without the EU!
its not rocket science. There was a monetary union without being united. It was good enough when every country had its currency. Europe should be created the other way around. make it easier to trade make it easily to travel or even work and or live within the EU and in the end if one could see even more positive indications eventually same currency…Now only if a bom goes of and debt is written off and new start at 60% OF GDP for all EU countries… only than yeah sure away and far away from the EU.
no, and no union will be destroyed, look at what happened when Scotland tried to become independent…then, if UK wants out, let them out, they do not have sufficient power to live by themselves
A country has to be good by itself, not because it is in the EU or not.
No (Czechia).
UK says no…
Portugal – has its problems aplenty. So, while a member of the EU, it claims it would be better off outside. But once outside, it would claim to be better off inside. Inside or outside, it does not fix its internal problems but uses the EU as an excuse.
But what EU are we talking about?
Wouldn’t it be better off to fix the EU part that is not working?
Rather than try to destroy it simply because our representatives to the EU have not done their job?
As for SI: no, since being highly autodestructive is better to be inside
The matter is what EU? Of market vultures and USA servant or a free democratic EU serving Europeans and open politics?
condivido quanto detto da George
no.
Wen You go to EU you loose Independent AND the Big nations make you country as a coloni
No. I’m from Spain, and I think that if my Government could manipulate its own currency it would be a disaster. We’ll have recession with inflation. A lethal combination.
No, no, no, We need a United Federal Europe that shares all the costs of the Europe we want- not a a-al-carte Europe that is unfairly tilted towards the richer nations in the EU – that can pick and choose what they like and what they dont like- , this is the cause of today’s economic problems in the EU.
Better off inside the EU.
Yes – Rumania! 7.5 million voters said “Yes” to president B?sescu impeachment and e.u. with Angela Merkel said “NO”! So much with the e.u. Democracy… e.u. = E.U.S.S.R.!
Yes all the southern and peripheral countries would be better off if they chose to have a union with a less valued currency. This union only cares for Germany.
Yes it would. Would end crisis, control immigration, deport illegals, corrupt banks would close and not be saved. And we wouldnt be under thecontrol of EU totalitarian unelected commission who govern under their own agenda and not anything we voted for. Or even worse, under Merkel’s govern. So yes, outof this farse bait and switch called EU.
from Switzerland, I hope that my country will join EU !
In Hungary no, its sure!!
Typical negative British question….headline should be…why you are worse off if you are outside EU…..have a look to Switzerlabnd and the missing EU funds, teh sitation at the German-Swiss border…have a look to the UK and the Scots wanting to stay…
From France, today , this is impossible for a country to live and prosper without an union et by the way The EU We cannot back in the past , this the way of thinking of people who cannot accept the world of today An economical crisis isn’t the moment to leave the EU , it will never be the moment They only want find a scapegoat with the EU to make the voters votes for them The problems can be solved together and not alone by each state , the EU isn’t something that we can throw, she needs change in her structureand working but absolutely not a dissolution in any case This is only national politicians who cares only about they own country and don’t mind in a large and european way of thinking
Sure, who said “No” wants to stay under USA or China’s power :)))They can’t see the future, they want only to eat very good today.
Yes
Drachmas pleaseee
EU would be better without Greece, obviously.
Greenland, 1985
Latvia? NO!! EU has helped us.
We should start to think about EU as the upgrade of our countries…
This cooperation between many amazing european countries turned Europe not only to the biggest economy in the world but also to the cultural power in the world! Cooperation is the solution!
Yes, of course. Every country would be better off outside a homosexualist, anti-family and pro-abortion, anti-democratic and pseudo-democratic super state. And no, I don’t think our current Orbn-government is not pseudo-democratic, too. But that does not make the EU any better or more democratic. Do you think it is democratic? What about the introduction of the euro and the Lissabon Treaty without national referenda? What about the rejection of the discussion about the financial support of unethical embryo research – a recent initiative supported by masses still ignored by the EU elite?
Norway and Switzerland are two countries with vast resources( oil and bank money respectively), that’s why they did not join EU. This is not the case with my country,Greece.So for Greece EU is the only way.
Of course better outside Europe.
EU IS DESTROYING EVERYTHING!
Greece should be better outside eu 100percent. Euro favorites only Germany.
No
It would suffice just Europe to be truly independent , and not just blindly follow the orders of the USA! If Europe away from the destructive policy of the United States and develop a good policy with Asian countries , it would be prosperity not only for the oligarchs !
well it depends what is the porpuse of the EU… as far as I know is a Club of the biggest industries and banks of europe to help themselves to archive their goals… nothing to do with me of course. Maybe I am wrong?
jm
none of the 28 would be, it is just extremists who have found another beating horse that try to induce the thought it would
Could British in beginning of 2015 democratically take decision if they want to stay in eu or not. I am tired of their circuses about eu. Eu is here to stay and countries that want to leave it. Do it now.
In of course. We will be fine with tbe UK leaving too. Let them be the USAs lapdog.
Romania doesn’t need EU, EU needs Romania …Why?
A better question would be if our countries be better off outside NATO, an aggressive organization, controlled by none European nations, that has outlived its purpose. It drains participating countries from financial resources. It commits human life and political purpose to interests of an empire that do not serve the interests of the smaller participating nations. As a ‘merican-Spaniard, married to a Croatian and doing business in Italy, Slovenia and Slovakia I could not imagine life without the EU, the easy trade, movement across borders and a single currency, once again. But I am aware that no competition ever existed without conflict. it just doesn’t have to lead us to termination of the union or war to serve the interest of financiers, corporate and resources raiders or war mongers and profiteers.
For Spain, and in my opinion: definitely NO!
get out, see the consequences and then debate and cry crocodile tears.
Everyone would be better off without the eu…….except the trough feeding eu officers.
Out of the EU. There is no positives to being in it the EU. Soon we are out the better. The rest of Europe can do what they like
no definitly no!!!!
No definitely not, we are too small a country (Belgium) to manage on our own.
No..but a European Federation construct should Happen in the NexT 20-25 years or the Eu will DIE from the inside out.
yes, I want my country (STATE) out UE
NO…..but we could do with kicking the UK out if they have to be dragged kicking and screaming each time to support Europe. Their loyalty is to Washington anyway
No. For strategical reasons :)
No. For strategical reasons :)
I don’t think EU was bad for some of EU countries . All EU countries has developed in EU . EU is enormous progress for East European countries . Think on Poland or Slovakia what they was for 20 Years ago and now? I think EU is problem for one kind of people and they look like this : nationalists , religious , old traditional , they are afraid of changes , they want to keep their nation “clean” of everything what differs .
I don’t think EU was bad for some of EU countries . All EU countries has developed in EU . EU is enormous progress for East European countries . Think on Poland or Slovakia what they was for 20 Years ago and now? I think EU is problem for one kind of people and they look like this : nationalists , religious , old traditional , they are afraid of changes , they want to keep their nation “clean” of everything what differs .
for thise EU?. that you have dann. a big YES
for thise EU?. that you have dann. a big YES
No! For the ones that think they can go at it alone… I challenge you to look a bit further than your nose!
No! For the ones that think they can go at it alone… I challenge you to look a bit further than your nose!
Germany will ALSO be better off without EU We had a strong currency before!
Germany will ALSO be better off without EU We had a strong currency before!
No I can’t imagine my country out. There are many countries that have financial problems we can find solutions all togather
A new kind of EU is what is needed – a confederalist Europe of the Nations with a new basic document instead of the Treaty of Lissabon. A new EU is needed which directs money into the real economy instead of banks. Which stops overcrediting by banks and the overbuying of bonds and shares by anyone. An EU which defends women from prostitution and being tempted or forced into sexual exploitation. An EU which defends normal family and marriage and defends human life from conception. An EU which promotes a child and family centred strategy of policies in every field of life. One which is at least as obsessed with basic moral values and personal responsiblitiy as it is with human rights and liberty. And one which efficiently stops the spreading of islam extremism in Europe.
NO, EU family should stick together!
Yes and No. Now Portugal belongs to the Chinese due to capitalistic laws that allowed our utilities to be sold and privatized, removing any hope of independence in the future… unless we engage in war with 2 billion people and a massive army.
Thank you Collectivist European Plutocrats.
No, it would not, It would be a very difficult situation for Poland to be outside the EU.
Of course yes for France!!! I’m sure when France leaves, 3, 4 or 5 other countries will follow us at the same time! Why should my land have the same destuny as 27 other countries of the continent? The size and the population has nothing to do, it’s a false parameter! Do someone ask Isral to associate itself with his 27 neighboors? No! :)
To start with all countries should have a vote on the latest treaty. Without a vote – no legitimacy!
What about belonging to Brazil, Jos? :-)
Yes!For corrupted Latvia!
Yes, as soon as the UK leaves we can get on with real reforms that are needed not the neo-liberal ones that the UK conservatives want!
The question is: Would YOUR country be worse off outside the EU?
It depends on the policy adopted by the EU. Currently, I’m sure no country in the Euro zone is performing rather well. When you create a banking and fiscal union and stop w/ this austerity madness, we’ll support you.
sure
I believe that Greece and all the rest of the countrys are better with the real europe. Not this abnormity who was created just only for the rich and big companys and the rich people that they dont want to pay any taxis any more.
Yes.
Of course Catalonia would be!
In some aspects maybe…if EU changes their view over the EuroBonds things will change !
You only have to make an experiment. Try to ask Europe for help with a problem of yours that has to do with european law. They will tell you first to go to the court in the country that causes you your problem (takes about 10 years and a lot of money) and afterwards you can go to the european court. I tried to find some legal advice at Your Europe, that is suppposed to give advice, and both times they told me things, I already knew, or some things compleately different of the things I had asked. European law exists only for convincing people how perfect is Europe. In reality Europe is a capitalistic police union, nothing else. If you try to get your rights that are written in these laws, you will see that european law is without any substance and worthless.
No, Portugal must stay in the eu and collaborate in more power of the people throuth eu parlement.
faktet trekojn se qith popullata duan bashkimin europja problemi me liderat politik kec pordorim popullin
Wuold My country be better inside EU with non debating goverment?
Definitely NOT!
Yes if Eu is german…
How would europe be better for its countries?
Europe is a modern USSR !
The problem is in the case of my country (Whatever that might mean nowdays) that THE FUNDS THAT COME FROM THE EU TO PORTUGAL ARE ALMOST ALWAYS MISMANAGED…Yes, diverted, evaporate to off-shore accounts, etc…AND no one from the EU ever demands accountability…So CORRUPTION is maintained by the EU…I feel powerless!!!
European union is not an Union,is just an economic union unfortunately….i like european union but for now it’s just a dream what they call european union. we cannot share the same market and the same money (euro) with so many differences in economic growth, debt etc… or we becme an union sharing debt as well as market or european union will fail and euro will fail.
No, EU family have to stick together.
Stiglitz: Leaving the euro painful but staying in more painful http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6FzI-5baKsI
UE=Europa….Which is the reason to be a country in Europe, if we do not have a good relationship each other.?..which is the positive idea to have a neighbor if there is not a good relationship with..?…….The period of tribes is far away of our civilization !
Definetly not !
Who cares?! You know why I dont care? Cause I dont care where is better for my country! I care for an united European Union and finding such a way to improve all member states’ situation and forming a solid Union! So I dont care if my country would be better or worse outside EU! I care more for EU! :)
If I can have a “REGULATION” to outlaw mediation/ADR/IDS from the whole of public services in all of Europe then I would want to stay in Europe. If not, then I would want to leave Europe immediately as it will become “savage” over time. http://www.lesleymcdade.blogspot.com
If the European Union – EU do not changes, I would say yes. Let me answer to the question with facts: Portugal – The balance of 25 years in the European Union: Before we had enter the EU we, Portugal, was the 8th most industrialized country in Europe. Now we are on the 22nd place. Before we enter the Euro zone, industry was 36% of our GDP. Now is only 13%. Before we became a member of the EU, our agriculture could feed 50% of our population. Now is only 20%. Before we became an European Union country we had one of the biggest fishing fleet. Now we have only a residual fleet. Before, we had the biggest sea zone in Europe. May be not very modern but, European Union – EU gave us money not to modernise the fleet but to destroy it. Now we need permission from Brussels to fish in our own sea and have to share it with everyone. Amazingly, Spain has more fishing rights than us, even though their economic sea zone is much smaller. Before our entry in the EU , our growth rate was 5+%, but during the 10 years of EMU our growth became 0.5%. Before our EU membership, our public deficit was under 60%. Now is 132% of our GDP after Troika intervention. In 1983 our unemployment rate was 7.6% now, in 2013 is 17.8% and the real one is very well above the 20%. Could you please, tell me in what we benefit from entering the EU?
Of course, France will be better out of EU because she will have the liberty of defending her companies, her workers and she will be able to really act against unemployment !
Ireland would be better off outside the EU now – regrettably.
At least 64 billion euro worth better off if it had not veen bullied by Truchet into rescuing banks that should have gone bust, plus the return of our maritime territory.
My country, like a lot of other countries will be deffinitely better out. But Britain will be in the lead.
https://www.facebook.com/SupportUKIP/photos/a.644917608891127.1073741829.641497352566486/764017266981160/?type=1&theater
Subject to a lot of ifs kai ean