Pro-EU protests are a rare occurrence in Europe these days. So it was particularly noteworthy when thousands of people took to the streets of Kiev on Sunday waving Ukrainian and EU flags in the country’s biggest rally since the 2004 Orange Revolution. The protesters were angry at the government for its shock announcement last week – apparently made under pressure from Russia – that it was suspending plans to sign a far-reaching association agreement with the EU at a summit in Vilnius taking place today and tomorrow.
The EU’s “Eastern Partnership” is supposed to cement economic and political ties between the EU and its Eastern neighbors: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. However, many observers regard Ukraine – the largest and most populous of the former Soviet Republics – as being central to the success of the strategy.
Nikolai, one of our regular commenters, put it most bluntly:
The key to the Eastern Partnership is Ukraine… Should [closer EU-Ukraine ties] fail to materialize… the EU will lose its geopolitical battle [with Russia]
The Association Agreements signed as part of the Eastern Partnership would be the most comprehensive agreements ever made between the EU and third countries, eventually involving participating countries adopting more than two-thirds of the EU’s Single Market rules. However, Ukraine’s decision not to sign – especially coming after Armenia also earlier rejected an Association Agreement in favour of closer ties with Moscow – suggests that EU influence in the region may be wavering. In the meantime, Russia is keen to develop the idea of a “Eurasian Union” as an alternative to EU membership.
Some, including the President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, have outright condemned Russia for what they see as bullying behaviour:
I am deeply disappointed […] that Ukraine and Armenia have abandoned plans to sign the Association Agreements at the summit. It is especially regrettable that the countries’ decisions to reconsider their choices have been made under external pressure. We should say clearly and loudly that the economic and political pressure exerted by Russia against our eastern partners is simply unacceptable.
However, despite all this geopolitical wrangling, Western EU Member States seem largely pre-occupied with other issues. Britain, Germany and France will be using the Vilnius summit to announce planned curbs to internal EU migration, visibly annoying Eastern European EU Member States like Romania and Bulgaria and possibly sending the signal that the EU prefers to deal with its internal problems before opening any doors to the East.
This is certainly a sentiment shared by some of our readers. Kostadin, for example, sent us in a comment arguing that it would be better if Ukraine turned away from Brussels and grew closer to Moscow, saying the “future of Ukraine is to be a Member State in the Eurasian Union.”
To get a response, we took Kostadin’s comment yesterday to Jerzy Buzek, an MEP with the centre-right European People’s Party and a former President of the European Parliament and Prime Minister of Poland. How would he respond?
We also had another comment sent in by Nikolai, suggesting that part of the problem is that the EU hasn’t offered anything concrete to Ukraine:
Perhaps the EU should concentrate on dangling attractive carrots (and not vague references to Article 49 EU accession) within existing EU entities… There must be some long-standing EU clubs – such as the EEA – that the EaP nations can be offered membership of when they met the grade to feel “included” – no doubt that will further annoy Ukraine’s neighbour to the North-East.
How would Buzek respond to Nikolai’s point?
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Why is the EU-Establishment so obsessed with enlargement? The bicycle metaphore is nonsens. Who wants to spend life on a bicycle? Never ending enlargement has no legitimacy among those populations who finance the EU.
Does the US, China or India pursue enlargement? No, they don’t. Enlargement is not something the core EU populations demand. We deserve more reasonable explanations for this crazy policy than “the EU is like bicycle”.
Yes, Ukraine is a European country, and more so than Turkey, but that doesn’t mean that the Ukraine has to join the EU or Russia.
The country has already enough problems with its own diversity. What it obviously needs is more time for inward integration and practicing independence, as it was never really independent in history before.
@Bastian
The EU should be improving its current incarnation first before trying to grow!
@Bastian
I think that the need to practice more independence is not a good measure for Ukraine in the age of globalization and speed. Everything is moving very fast at the geopolitical level and Ukraine have to pick a side. I think that move is one of the first diplomatic move that the E.U. had made over Russia. I think that E.U. is stabilizing it’s position in the European Continent and trying to limit Russia’s influence over Eastern Europe, and former soviet Satellites.
I otherwise am in favor of the discussions and free trade agreements with Ukraine that will offer the possibility of investments made more easily and a grow in trade balances.
Langsam ! Nicht zu schnell , besser !
It was a good decision of Ukraine government to stop…..and think a little bit. ….
Yep, now after more than six months, we see how good of a decision it was. A genial one I may say (sarcasm).
http://www.nocensura.com/2013/11/lue-va-processata-per-crimini-contro.html
If Ukraine enjoyed the Soviet Union .. I hope they realize the new Soviet Unions is called the .. “European Union” .. The Soviet Union never died, it just moved house .. Putin is no Soviet lackey, Ukraine should think carefully.
The Soviet Union, of which you appear to know nothing about, was a 1984 style totalitarian distopia. The EU, in case you haven’t noticed, is based on freedom, equity and the rule of law i.e. on democratic values. I am at a loss how you arrived at such a comparison.
Oh, please, the old “EUSSR” argument, can you right-winger be any more cliched?
@Balabanov
Wrong. The EU is based on corporate interests, banker interests, US geopolitical interest and above all the slow destruction of national democracy, Everything for the rich, nothing for the middle class and the poor.
As a matter of fact, Ukraine is hijacked and negotiations with the terrorists seem to be of no use.
The Ukrainian “Gov’t” (i.e. The Family) does not know how to think in terms of values, reforms and the needs of the country. They are mere puppets and Putin is pulling all the strings. The Assoc. Agreement could have given Ukraine, and especially young people, the chance to work towards a better future and not to return to the dark ages of the past.
Fully agree
Russia’s strategic interests in the Ukraine are far greater than the EU’s interests will ever be. Russia’s Black Sea Fleet it based in the Crimea. The strategic space occupied by Ukraine changes the calculus for Moscow in the event that Kiev follows the path of the Baltic Republics. For this reason, I think Russia will make more of a play for taking the Ukraine back into the Eurasian Customs Union and Moscow’s orbit. Don’t forget the eastern part of the Ukraine in cities like Donetsk there is a great deal of love for Moscow. Ultimately I think Russia wins because they have more to lose should the let the Ukraine go. Moldova will be next.
Excuse me, Jovan :) What Ukraine are you talking about – Ukraine without Ukrainians?
Which Ukrainians, Igor? The Russians in the East, the ethnic “Ukrainians” in the West or the young people that want to be European citizens?
@Balabanov
You mean the young people that want to come here to steal more of our jobs and undercut local workers even further?
Enjoy Russia, because we don’t want Ukraine. In this case, I am with Putin.
Russia will never win, because Putin and Co. have no respect for other nations that liberated themselves from the Communist yoke. Russia refuses to let go of Ukraine because they feel that their historical past and origin are tied to Ukraine, which is a blatant lie!!
Russia originates in Kiev. Learn some history, Christine!
The more Nations that say No to the eu the better.
@Jovan Ivosevic You described the situation exactly as it is. Russia has strategic interests in Ukraine and it will keep defending them at any cost….for better or for worse…
Has anyone of you ever been to the RF, dear commentators? :)))
Why go to another “managed democracy” (DINO, democrcy in name only) when we have seen so many of it already under the old system. Suffice it to see international statistics and where Russian stands in terms o human rights, corruption, and the rule of law. A depressing view.
will anyone think of the Ukrainian people? This tug-of-war between East and West tires me, and it is not good for the countries that lie between the interests of Eastern and Western powers.. Ukraine will never be stable and prosperous until the EU-Russia relations normalize. I wholeheartedly wish to want Ukraine in the EU, but since a large proportion of its population IS Russian on the eastern part of the country, then alienating Russia is not helping. The Russians have great interests in the country as many above have already mentioned. So if Europe wants to see Ukraine in EU, and the majority of the Ukrainians want to join, what do we do about Russia? Perhaps the “carrot” as one said, we should not be giving it to Ukrainians, rather to the Russians to let Ukraine join EU.. Perhaps a Europe closer to Russia and a bit further away from USA would help? This post WW2 mentality of both sides must be abandoned at some stage.. We are going backwards, not forward..
Wish to want?… Wish to SEE Ukraine in the EU I meant…. Duhh.!
Closer to Russia than the USA?! Have you not seen the latest news on Russia´s Human Rights “development”? Russia (a bully) has nothing to do with Europe, and Ukraine might have a chance although they should revise their Human Rights politics as well. I´m growing tired of Moscow´s menace to all western as if we were part of the problem. They´re no better than the USA…. if anything they are worse and are not a reliable alternative for Europe, or any country (aspiring to development) in its sane minds.
I agree, Christo. The Ukranian people is not one nation though. The East is entirely ethnically Russian, to the extent they never thought they would have to choose between Russia nad the Ukraine. And Russia does feel it has a stake there and will do whatever it takes to keep it. So without the Russians or at least a grand salvation aid package in the short run (to the tune of 150-200 billion $) we can’t do it. In that sense Yanukovych is right – he cannot afford the risk of an economic catastrophe.
Alex if we want to change human rights in any of our partners or potential partners, slandering them and criticize them in every chance we get, it is not the way to do it.. On the contrary we harden their nationalist streak and their resistance to change.. Starting good trade relations and understanding, then allowing their citizens to travel and study in our countries, to get a taste of our values and living standards, then when they go back to theirs they will change their country bit by bit themselves, without our interference.. Me thinks anyway..
As for America-Europe relations..Well It benefits certain countries in Europe, definitely not all.. They favor certain nations that they have greater interests in.. Yes Europe and America must remain good partners, but not be attached to the hip anymore.. Europe must be allowed to forge new relations with all the BRICS countries, including Russia…
Kroum I know and I agree.. Especially when Europe promises to put Ukraine under the American controlled IMF, with all that this will mean for the Ukrainian people, in order to detach Ukraine from the arms of Russia.. This is disgraceful.. Look at what the IMF has done to Greece and all other nations in central and eastern Europe that went under its surveillance in order to join the euro and the EU.. Massive emigration…
You may want to read this and tell me your opinion.. Thank you:
http://eblanademocraticmove.blogspot.ie/2013/11/ukraine-eu-relations-must-deepen-but.html
Igor Zunamenko, I am not describing the situation through some lens of wishful thinking, merely of the way things are. Even in my native Serbia, we have had to make concessions to Moscow because we needed something from them, which is continuing support at the UN over Kosovo after Russia’s interests in defending our territorial integrity disappeared – they now want to use Kosovo’s independence as a precedent to justify Abhazia’s and South Ossetia’s, and likely Transdniestria’s independence. So we sold our state owned oil and gas company to Gazprom for 60% of the fair market value. We did indeed get the South Stream pipeline built, and we are getting the only depot along the pipeline, but that means we are also getting Moscow’s “influence” in return. And keep in mind, Serbia is not even half as important to Moscow as the Ukraine.
You can listen to idealists like Christine Chairabi who think Russia is the only big power who does this, or you can look at reality that Germany does the same. You think Germany forcing austerity on Southern eurozone economies is for the South’s own good? Or is it to promote high unemployment, keep the euro soft, and give a competitive advantage to German exports abroad? Germany’s trade surplus has never been higher than today and it is holding other eurozone economies from recovering. Nobody who is an outsider cares about your well being more than you, and everyone out there looks out for their own interests. In Russia’s case, I think their strategic interests in the Ukraine are so great that they will invest more political capital than anyone in the EU will to keep a hold over the Ukraine. You will never be closer to the EU than you were the day Orange banners went up in the streets of Kiev and look how Moscow took it down piece by piece. Best to take a proactive approach with Moscow and negotiate now the best deal for yourselves, or you will end up just like Moldova who took a reactive approach, and will now get the worst deal because they have absolutely no other choices.
Ukraine has no future with the RF. And this statement is based on my own past and my own present, let alone the history itself. You know, take a look at Poland and get more optimistic. As for Kosovo, Albania is Albania, Kosovo is Serbia, period. Ummm…Abkhazia. Well, I believe two wrongs don’t make a right.
Jovan Ivosevic – this is what the EU is all about (see below). I may be an idealist, but there’s nothing wrong with striving towards the best for one’s family and country. I know very well that the situation is not at all ideal in many European countries and each country works for its own good. However, there is a common platform and THAT is sorely missing in Russia and Ukraine… We aim for an Eastern partnership:
where free and fair elections are taken for granted;
where people feel that they have a say in who governs them;
where governments respect the will of the people as well as the rule of law;
where criminal justice is free of politics; and
where political prisoners are a thing of the past.
I couldn’t agree more, Christine. Thanks.
Christine there is a group whose aim is to establish a colony on Mars in 15 years and they have a better chance of success than this little comical talk shop you call the EU Eastern Partnership. In case you haven’t noticed, of the countries in this “Eastern Partnership” Ukraine is the most democratized, and you should check the results of the last presidential elections to see who won. Yanukovich is not a Russian puppet, but he is certainly friendlier to Russia than Timoschenko. Who do you want to have this democratic paradise with? Open dictatorships like Belarus, authoritarian regimes with frozen ethnic conflicts like Azerbaijan and Armenia, or failed states with frozen conflicts AND authoritarian regimes like Georgia and Moldova? And you think any of these will seriously ever be accepted by the EU, knowing full well that Russia will not permit it? Do you remember what happened last time when Russia turned the gas pipelines off and threatened to freeze central Europe in the middle of winter? There is a huge difference between being an idealist and being ignorant of reality.
Jovan, the Ukraine is a working oligarchy of lawlessness and probably the most corrupt country in the world, may be after only Zimbabwe.It is a democracy in name only (DINO). Georgia is not very much better, but their economy is in better shape and they have a chance to learn to to furthre reform with the EU. I fail to nderstand your cynicism about the Partnrship with the East. Poland, Czech, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania & Bulgaria all went through the process and managed to accomplish a qualitative civilizational leap forward under the Aquis and EU funds.
Igor, countries which are smaller and richer than the Ukraine are already having a hard time joining the EU. Rich countries will not want a poor nation of 45 million because the agricultural and regional funds will explode and they will have to pay it. Poorer countries don’t want you because the agricultural and regional funds which are going to them will be diverted to the Ukraine. And then there is the geopolitical equation of pissing Russia off. As I said, I have never really seen the scenario where the Ukraine becomes an EU member.
Russia is no longer a real threat, it is an ancient threat, but it’s economy is small, it’s armed forces using old equipment. It’s only strength is gas.
Jovan, I can clearly see you’ve no idea about Moldova and Georgia. And please read Christine’s comment above once again.
Quite right. Moldova and Georgia are the embodiment of democracy and stability in the world. Yes, that is sarcasm in case you didn’t notice.
The Ukrainians are always good at sarcasm in case you don’t know that :)
It’s interesting, EU is the most powerful economic power in the world, around a trillion dollars larger than the US. However the EU has aims to unite Europe, but also compete against china and the US, with growth minimal in the EU, expansion of eastern european countries that have high gdp growth, will boost EU GDP growth, making it a more formidable economic power. Russia has minimal real power. It’s armed forces are outspent by just the UK let alone the rest of Europe. The only threat is its control of natural gas.
Ukraine will receive a bad deal under Russia, no doubt. The EU is not perfect but it does have an amazing human right record. It’s probably the most ethical mass organisation in the world, apart from the UN, but the EU has real power unlike the UN.
Believe it or not those countries that have entered the eu have all prospered. The EU invests alot of money, even the euro crisis seems to be ending. Growth is minimal but depreciation and recession have generally stopped and plateaued.
This move by Ukraine, is purely fom fear from Russia as Russia in the area has mass influence and is a major trade partner of Ukraine. However the deal will happen just later than sooner sadly. Russia is still angry with the EU for stating Russia’s clear breach of peoples human rights. And it breach of free and fair elections. If the eu gains Ukraine as a partner, Russia will slowly lose its grip in its own backyard and will be powerless. Might even turn to the EU in the future.
Interesting. But I would like it the other way around. There is a risk to your assumptions.
why is the EU having these unstable countries to join then we end up bailing them all??
I think he is right! :)
WHY?
WHY?
Life is cruel
Short period better Russia, Long Period better EU
I agree…he want’s tu distroy EU puting presure in the easteuropeans countrys!…he still has ”friends”in Roumania,Bulgaria,Hungary…in Roumania is PSD whit mr primminister Ponta in top of the list!
Pressure on what – the so-called president?
When Russia expands and defends its strategic interests is unacceptable, but when the EU does the exactly same thing is allright?
The question is not if it is acceptable, but what can we do against it, in order to keep the EU together. This is not about political correctness but about geopolitical power, which is the strength of Russia, not the EU’s. Sorry, but that’s the story..
It would be nice to hear your favorite constellation – geopolitically?
@Christine Chraibi, in your head is a total mess about ex-socialist countries. :))))
Where is that mess? Could you b more specific? In what aspects of the realities of the “former socialist” countries do you find Christine wrong?
I think that E.U. is administered by politicians of 1800 who make every effort to destroy it by destroying its citizens.They have almost suceed to destroy Greece.A partnership of Greece whith Russia is the only way to stability and prosperity for Greeks.E.U. must treat Russia as a very good partner not as an opponent.
Ukraine must be close to E.U. and to Russia.E.U AND RUSSIA HAVE TO BE GOOOD PARTNERS.And finally E.U. WITHOUT RUSSIA is an illusion.
I agree
If Russia wants to get into the European Union it has to do some big changes at all levels of political administration, rule of law and real democracy. Nowadays, with the attitude of Putin and his model of running the country, i am convinced that the membership of Russia in the E.U. is surely impossible: it’s a very big difference in the principles of good-governance. So…right now i think that E.U. WITH RUSSIA is an ILLUSION !
Sadly the EU has taken more than given, and for me that’s what’s really unacceptable. I believe in the EU project, not it’s polititians
Bankers and corporations thank you for your continued support of the ‘EU project’. You sure fell for it, didn’t you?
Why does the EU want Ukraine? the only reason must be to satisfy its ever growing expansionist power grabbing ambitions
I’m sure the people of Ukraine would love to be in the EU but what’s in it for me? what is the benefit to me, a tax paying EU citizen (by default) by allowing the Ukraine to join?…nothing is the answer except cries for more of my money for the EU budget to give away
When is the EU going to do more to benefit the citizens it already has before going out and kidnapping more?
Paul, you do not see the longer term benefits of shifting and new trade and investment flows and more growth in the entire area, therefore the Union does it in ist own interest – rmeber the Marshal Plan? America did i in its own interest too. The other fundamental reasn is promoting democratic values. The wider family of democracies makes the world and Europe safer. pity I can see that from the perspective of CEE and you do not from the perspectiv of the “Old Europe” Maybe Don Rumsfeld was right after all
Russsian pressure on the Ukraine is not acceptable, but the EU was caught unaware & unprepared. To us, the new EU member country citizens of CEE, it was more than obvious that Russia recognizes onl that MIGHT IS RIGHT and that it would exert economic pressure on the Ukraine to the extent of inflictng an economic catastrophe in the short run. And where was our short term aid package? And where was our plan B? Russia outwitted us again and now it would be probably talks in a triangle, because it considers itself a stakeholder.
the eu bullies whinge anout Rusian bullies…..lol
A Russia esta a vender uma imagem de politicas monarcas eles não têm direito nenhum sobre as decisões dos madantários da Ucrãnia Eu desejo ver a Ucrãnia dentro do espaço da Europa<
this is a sad case of power politics, the president not listening to its own parliament, nor to its people, very sad….
I feel sorry for these young people on the streets of Kiev, who want their country to be part of the European family. But the East is entirely Russian and in a showdown almost always outvotes the West. And in the short term Russia outplays the EU. Putin literally thinks the East is part of Russia and would do “whatever it takes”
to keep it. And if they have an important stake ther and have important levers on the Ukraine, we would probably have to hold talks in a triangle – the EU, the Ukr & the Russ Fed. It may look like Yalta though. May be a cantonized solution would allow the West of Ukraine to secess one day and enter the EU (mch like Ireland in 1922 & and 1973 and like Scotland probably nowadays)..
I cringe with embarrassment when this so called UK appointee of ‘Baroness’ turns up to speak as a representative for our country on the world stage. This unelected cretin and close friend of Blair has no mandate to be in this position and it’s time she was replaced by a person of worth.
The Ukraine turned us down! Miracles do happen after all , no matter how they want to spin it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbJUCUfzo7o
Yet it was her who brokered the Iran nuclear deal. Give her a chance. They were also considering Tony for this post, but few in Europe would have liked to see him praching again. He still is the special envoy (US, UN, RF & EU) for the Israeli Palestinian peace process.
Would it not be the right thing to make public referendums for president, foreign minister etc in the EU? Besides political legitimacy it would create more grassroote activity, more enthusiasm.
It is Russia. What do you expect? Fair partners? Nice friends?
No. Russia is not fair or nice.
In my eyes Russia has ruined her reputation for ages. Unrepairable.
Well, to me it seems that we should take Russia much more serious…Putin put it on the old place of big politic, military and economic power…the message seems to me like this one: do not mess with us…
First take care of current EU member states like for example: Lithuania who is still getting monopolistic Russian gas and In turn is being bullied into high energy costs, etc. a member state that receives indirect threats of being occupied: when America was considering to send army to Syria: Putins advisors in Kremlin suggested in turn to occupy Baltic countries etc, when these matters are dealt with then take care of the countries bordering EU.
When Russia puts pressure on other states to form a coalition or a partnership it’s called coercion, when the US or the EU does it it’s called diplomacy or negotiations. Do you see a double standard in the media? The problem with Russia was never that they were Communists, because now they’re convinced capitalists and there’s still people trying to attack Russia. The problem is that Russia sits on top of vast natural resources that Western countries desperately need. And also because the West wants to maintain gloabl hegemony. It’s that simple.
I agree with you, Juan Vazquez Garcia. It’s so odd how the public are quite gullible in these matters.
Russia, of course, are not without faults, but, there is definitely a double standard, which is not good for world peace and good relations with our neighbours.
So do you think that Hitlers invasion would, if succeded, have changed the global balance to Germany?
@Juan Vázquez García
I agree with you old chap.
That’s why I’ve never understood why the UK joined the EU (area = 1,691,658 sq miles) when it could have been part of an Anglosphere Global Union ( area = 3,794,101 sq miles [USA] + 3,854,085 sq miles [Canada] + 2,969,907 sq miles [Australia] + 103,483 sq miles [NZ] + 94,060 sq miles [UK}) with a total area of 10, 815, 636 sq miles more than 6 times the EU land mass + far, far, far greater sea resources.
The UK joined [and has to pay for the privilege to be a member of] such a small union with such limited land and sea resource when it SHOULD have [and still can join] a richer union, where it doesn’t pay charity to some Club Med nations or some Eastern EU nations, where all citizens speak the same language and use a superior legal system.
It is not the tug-of-war with Russia that the EU should be concerned with its whether it can keep hold of the more prosperous [net contributor to the EU] member country the UK that should be of greater concern.
For the UK to stay in the EU the UK must receive a net contribution of at least £10 billion pa AND be able to cherry pick as and when OTHERWISE the EU will at best be a ‘Russian lackey’ or more than likely a ‘backwater’.
To Tarquin Farquhar
I dont think EU will be either backwater or lackey if it stands on its own. This is not an: ”Either you are with me and only me, or you are with the enemy!”
The anglo club is rather large on sq-miles. I wonder if all the members have the same aspiration. Only the future can tell. But the landmass of Earth is close to 60.000 sq miles. I will not begin to calculate the amount that is in some degree hostile to this club. It is not possible. Not because it is so numerous but because politics change all the time. On thing that has a lot to do with ”freindship” amoung countries, especially when it comes to smaller ones, is how wealthi is the alternative. You must admit that in these years, wealth is increasingly changing from west to east. It might create new friendships and loosing some old ones.
USA shines alot these years. What I cannot figure out, is its rather fast and testing jump into fracking. A technologi I will consider quite risqué. It might spoil natural waters for generations, just to mention one thing. If economy is so strong, I do not find it necessary to risk. There are so many other ways to get energy. A fraction of the Sahara desert collect enough energy from the sun, for the whole earth, every day. But ok this is their decision.
It is not that I have bad desires for this club. I just do not believe EU is better of under USA. I dislike monopoly. Either it is in business, in political power or relations between individuals.
Fracking is not very well tested in its environmental impact, you are right, Morten. as to the monopoly, I agree. But we are not literally or formally under US. The fact that they spy on us does not mean they command us. Remebre France. When it did not like it or thought it did not serve its interests, it left the military structure of NATO and lead its own foreign policy. This is even easire with the EU. I think Schroeder countered the Americans afew times and played cards with Russia.
O monopolista da Russia colocar presso sobre os outros estados lamentvel como a Russia faz o seu jogo politico dentro dos corredores das politicas internacionais O jogo desses madantrios da Russia no futuro se tornarem os donos do mundo Eu faos votos para que haja um acordo de cavalheiros das duas partes
Os homens mais ricos do mundo so os Russos o mundo moderno ainda no viu isso O Sr Presidente da Russia um dos homens mais rico do mundo agora olhamos para o passado do Sr Putin quando entrou no poder no tinha nada hoje tm uma das maiores fortunas do mundo e o interesses desses monopolistas tornarem-se poderosos dentro do mundo Eu fao votos que haja acordo de cavalheiros a Europa precisa de travar essa contaminao de politicas da Russia
who asks? You Disolve greece! and you ask about pressure?
It’s his job. Putin has been amazingly effective. He is a Cold War warrior and a former KGB. Global power is his agenda. The US and the EU have to wake up to that fact. I don’t like him but I admire his balls. :(
The Lithuanian president is probably right when saying that Yanukovich used Russia only as an excuse. He is probably afraid of the changes he would buy when associating with the EU, losing control over own matters.
On the other hand, claiming it on Russia makes also sense, because Russia seems to increasingly resent the results of the Gorbatschov revolution which pushed Moscows border back more or less to the lines of the furthest advance of Axis armies in 1941/42. Hence, from a territorial perspective all the sacrifices of the Red Army were in vain.
From this point of view Merkels appeal to Russia that it should recognize that the Cold War is over grasps at nothing, because it is not this which seems to disturb many Russians but the loss of control over territories which it regained in WWII only with great human sacrifices.
Russia was the saviour of the allies in WW11.,They were the real resistance, their sacrifice ten times that of the rest. Yet, we seem to forget the contribution they made.
Whilst on the other hand, we cling wrongly and repeatedly to the idea that the country who took us for a financial ride on the back of it, the USA, was the one who saved us with their so called supermen. .
What a farce.
I think that is true. TVN in Poland said a big aid package was in the making.
PROPAGANDA GLOBALISTA EUROPEANA!
Equality – Fraternity – Liberty, for All European Union Citizens! STOP discriminations a West EU countries AGAINST Central and East EU countries! Come with US!
CINE TRADEAZA ROMANIA SE TRADEAZA PE EL/EA! UITATI-VA’N ISTORIE! ROMANII NU IARTA NICIODATA, PE TOATE FRONTURILE, CHIAR SI ALE INTELIGENTEI ABSOLUTE!
In my heart is is beautiful to see all the yellow and blue flags in Kiev! But it is disturbing to see the situation interpreted as a to-of-war.
Recent history needs to be refreshed. When Boris Yeltsin in his last desperation for saving Russia, throw the control to Putin, It might have been with his life at risk. Lets not forget who and how Russia was on the way to loose its independence to very large money, mostly coming from New York. It would not have been a nice outcome for the man in the street!
With this in mind, I must admit that I can excuse very much comming from Putin. He is the man for Russians. And they love him for it.
I agree with you Catherine, that Russia paid the highest price for WW II. Yet on their way to Berlin the Russian armies treated literally all of us, the Eastern Europeans as enemy countries and remained here for 45 years. What is still worse they thought the economic model (of a command economy) that helped them win the war was the best model whatosever. “If we could win the war, imagine what can we do in times of peace”. And they imposed that model in CEE and tried to raise Homo Sovieticus – the new Soviet Man. It would take us at least 50-60 yeras to reverse that madness. And in what way did America take you for a ride – that it provided the Marshall Plan to help you recover? We are using our Marshall Plans now in the form of EU funds. There was never any symmetry between the superpowers, because one was based on democratic values and the other on a totalitarian dictatorship. I have to admit, that in the symptoms there were times when the two ssytems seemed alike – i.e. until more or less Civil Rights Movement in America, but the processes & mechanisms that lead to those symptoms were different
@Kroum Balabanov:
This spot is not enough space to explain in detail how it was done. So suffice it to say we, the UK only recently paid off the ‘loan’ the US was said to have given us to help us fight our war. However, that was no loan, it was a deal for trade, and yet, we still had a mountain of debt from it. This book tells it as it really was and covers it from every angle. I have put it up a few times, but again, it is a well researched excellent read. And Russia ‘was’ the big saviour regardless of what their soldiers may or may not have done at the end of it.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12090550-america-and-the-imperialism-of-ignorance
The conquering army always treats those they slaughter with the most dreadful revenge. And they still do it today. They kill, pillage and rape as well as take economic advantage. You only have to read what has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan to know that. Don’t forget, this is with today’s psyche and still it is done.
“We are using our Marshall Plans now in the form of EU funds.”
Φοβού τους Δαναούς και δώρα φέροντες! (“Equo ne credite, Teucri / Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes”, Vrigilio “Aeneas”). Ask the Greeks how costly for our sovereignty, dignity, human rights (especially the right to private property) this “EU funds” assistance proved to be!!
I think russian lider’s are living in the past,I think there is no room for isolation in this century; Russia should give up this separatist ideas and should be opened for communion with rest of Europe; and Europe should be ready for this too. All the leaders must think outside their ego’s and close minds; we are all people of this world, no political view has the right to divide us and to put us against each other.
I agree with you that we should not let us divide. Putin are afraid of the extreem amount of foreign money that would pour into who ever, that would put up an opposition in favor of foreign investment in Russias treasures. It would be devasting for the people of Russia. Allready today there is problems with drugs and alcohol. Think if huge foreign compagnies with cheap chineese workers invaded the country and startet to exploit with very little moderation.
Take care of human rights across the EU First. There’s too much pussy footing with Eastern European retrogrades. The Union should be united by values, not divided because of them, before it can expand any further. We can’t have Equality and dignity for all in most parts of the EU, and 1940’s morals in other. You are an SPD member in coalition with CDU, unblock the non-discrimination Directive. Introduce a directive to extend hate crimes legislation to homophobic crimes. Promote LGBT equality and at least registered partnerships across the EU. Homophobia is Russia’s new national idea, they have nothing positive to offer in terms of values except hatred, which they export into countries like Ukraine. They play the same card in Ukraine sponsoring homophobic demonstrations and burning “gays” in Ukraine: https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/p480x480/1463168_10200866724815130_180372778_n.jpg Make sure that all EU countries share european values of human rights and Equality for all. What’s going on in Croatia today or what’s been going on in Hungary or my counrty of Latvia with gay rights is simply unacceptabe. Europe shouldn’t be a place where people like me can feel as equal human beings only in the western part of the union, and as second class citizens in their own countries. At the core of the problem is a lack of political will and misunderstanding of LGBT issues. Russian government has no idea what LGBT rights are about and what homosexuality is and why human dignity should be protected.
I sincerely hope the heading to this thread is correct, and the EU is losing its tug of war with Russia over the Ukraine.
The best move in this matter on the part of Europe would be acceptance. Russia is more suited to running rogue states of this kind. Give us all a break and keep us hassle free, let Russia have its way. And good luck to them.
The EU traditionally pays special attention to judiciary issues in post-Soviet countries, including Ukraine. Transparent court proceedings and fair trials are among the key benchmarks set by the EU to measure Ukraine’s progress toward EU integration
http://euukrainecoop.com/
Ukraine’s “choice” is like the “choice” a victim has when being robbed at gun point.
We know Russia put insane pressure on Ukraine, either with gas, military threat or who knows what else.
Also JAILING of pro-EU protesters is clearly a sign of a truly “free society” …NOT.
In the end they should be left alone to decide for themselves, that way we won’t be blamed when they fuck up. But a novel idea was not just to co-opt Ukraine into the EU, but collude the EU with BRICS and tell the americans to go to hell.
I for one hope that the EU will turn East rather than West. The USA is a disaster and it is going down, we should distance ourselves as much as possible from the crashing collossus.
As of now it is the US that is recovering faster than Europe and it is the US thta gurantees peace and stablity not only in Europe but in the World as well. Look at Diayu. And us, Central & Eastern Europeans we want the US to be involved in Europe and so does the UK and Germany. I fail to understand the sources of your irrational hatred, Limbidis. And 2/4 BRICS are non-democartic regimes that value human life for nothing
I agree with most of what you are writing Kroum Balabanov. But not the statement about peace and stability. I seriously can´t understand what part of the humanbeing north of Mexico and south of Canada that differs so much from the rest of us. Wonder if x-ray could tell a difference? In Germany they have a saying: Trust is good, control is better. On my boarding school we had a saying: “Dont trust no man, only God”. But if you can prove that they are som kind of extraterrestrial with special trustworthiness, let me know. They themselves dont trust even their closest allies!
We are in a situation, were there is more than one solution. I believe in Europe. I know no other spot on this planet that is more mildly, fair etc. I believe in what we can do together, and I believe in diplomacy, communication, multipolarity and that we should fight monopoly in every way, when it comes from outside and is of extreme strategic importance. Like the electronic and computer business.
Thanks, Morten, I am a proud European (and a believer) too. There is an old joke about Canadians – A Canadian is the “light” version of and American without a gun and with a medical insurance. And if you go below Mason-Dixon, you run the risk of finding more ETs. I was infuriated myself when I heard of AM’s hone having been tapped. The Poles believed in everything the Yankees said, to the extent of taking in prisoners from Gitmo and having elements of the National Missile Defence deployed in Poland. I went to my country, Bulgaria, tuned into the BBC and listened to the coverage of G.W. Bush in Sofia. The Bulgarian President asked him directly whom the NMD would defend – us or them. W had to admit it was them. I went back to Poland ad told the Poles about it and most of them did not believe me. Then the Wikileaks diclosed unsavory and disrespectful comments of the State Department on the Poles about them being naive and how the Americans could make best use of it. So, yes, I understand you anger and I have my own reasons to be angry with them. And, yes, the Iraq war was bungled and probably unnecessary, although we now know that from hindsight. Yet as a union we do not have enough military power of our own to even guarantee our own safety. Look at Russia’s and China’s newly gained assertiveness. And America is still democratic and still the most important NATO component and the most effective one. Please recall Libya (the Tomahawks took out Ghaddafi’s radars, Kosovo (where they did not win the war but prevented another bloodshed), Bosnia (where we failed to do it). And look at ASEAN. All East Asian countries ask America not to leave them alone with this new assertive China – hence the pivot (rebalancing of American military power towards the Pacific). However, they do not respect us and we must, as Europeans, learn to command respect. And if we manage to develop enough military capabilities of our own, so much the better. Until then, it would be better for us to err on the side of caution. Russia recognizes nothing else but brutal force (MIGHT is RIGHT) and there is no strategic counterbalance other than America. The same applies for China. China and Russia are inherently undemocratic and do not share in the same values that we do. So if you are really looking for aliens, please, feel free to search them.
Coment to 2. coment from Kroum Balabanov.
You are welcome Kroum. Let me start with saying, that I feel with the people of eastern Europe who have suffered badly under the Communist regime. It is in many ways simmilar to what countries in South America is feeling today, but towards USA . The Brasilien president won´t even visit Obama when invited. I feel I am out late, because there is signs that large European countries have decided what horse to ride. (Wish it was a horseride, but it will be more of a walk with an increasing heavy yoke, and no means to stop the degrade). But better late than never. You can easy convince me about military power. But the a-bomb is invented, and I do not believe even the most stubbern want to live 100 years with atomic winter and funny looking kids. This should be our safety guarantee, our insurance, the believe in reason. So with the a-bomb as insurance, we are free to build a strong and democratic union with close relations with our neighbors and USA and so many others.
What really makes me energetic about this is the far future. How come nobody discusses an future where you have gotten your will. Lets play that USA is completely dominant (is allready today but not completly), they have an election (we must just be quiet and watch) and the man who comes in charge has some taste for dictatorship. It is much more effective etc. Now we are really sold to hard labour and no rights. Think of some teaparty member but just more fascistic. Dictators have preference for people with this kind of position. They have no sweet feelings to arrogant Europeans who knows better. Ok it is the worse scenario. But please consider the far future.
Do you know how much information there can be generated from this media? (Computer/internet). In Denmark we are not allowed to take DNA samples from newborn, because it might be misused some times in the future. Employers can select the healties workers etc. Dictators can jail possible criminals. I do not know, but if NSA is storing every information they can grab, it is the easiest solution for them to just make a file about every person on the planet. (I guess my file is pretty red flashing allready.) You see, this is power. For a good president it is not too bad for us. Not directly. But indirectly it will ruin our economy, because slowly but sure, this information makes its job and gives the advantage to American companies, because this is why they store it and afford to do so. So your job solution is this. Work at an american company, for a salary that is decided across the Atlantic, with very little room to speak, and conditions you will never be asked about. Ok you might say that it is better to be employed this way, than unimployed in the EU. I hope the employment situation is recovering, and freedom is certainly worth something.
I hope you will cook with EU. Don´t turn the heat off allready, the bread is only started to swell.
Morten, I agree with every sentence. I have seen it many times, the US President comands the most power in the world, yet we, the EU citizens – the biggest economic power in the World have no say in his election. that is a disadvantage of having a military superpower (who has monopoly or say in everything that goes on in the world). And I do believe Russia or China would democratise one day (much like Korea & Taiwan did) or collapse. You are absolutely right not only with the tea party but about GW Bush (the toxic Texan). And I am wary to admit it, but that applies to Obama, too. They do not respect us.
As for info, after years at BIG 4 I am small time consultant now, who often advises insurance companies on accounting, tax, transfer-pricing matters. I know what info can do there. With the databases they gather they can almost predict our every move (and privacy, info, minority rights are not well guarded and defended down here in CEE). We have the aquis – the EU body of law necessary to be a EU member, but the checks and balances do not work well. We are having problems with our own special services (who often act without ordinance or on political demand), not to mention an overreaching global intel or Big Brother like NSA. And when we need them, they do not help. We had this systemic blunder at Smolensk, where a Polish Plane crashed with 96 people of the political elite, including the incumbent President. A parliamentary delegation visited the US to ask NSA for the tapes of telephone covesrations of the passengers. They refused.
And what would stop (which checks and balances) the NSA from helping let’s say US insurance companies or banks to push some kind of toxic financial product downstream again. You are right, we must develop our own strength, like we did wit ESA, CERN or other European achievements. Since the Young Bush times I have been seeing America depart from democracy and the Rule oF Law in international affairs (Look at Gitmo and the Extraordianary Renditions of the CIA, for which Poland had a proceeding at the European Court of justice today). And the 2000 election – almost rigged. And the 2004 election – Evangeical Christians intimidating democratic voters not to vote. Yet for the time being we, as Europe, would have to balance between the superpowers and still rely on NATO for at least some time in the foreseeable future. It is very difficult to be a de facto leader of the EU and a leader of your own country (like Angela) and sometimes she must be in a conflict of interest. Like when she imposed German style austerity on Greece and the IMF proved to the EU Commission and Germany they were pressurizing Greece too much and the pace of deficit slashing is not sustainable. But the very fact that we talk and understand each other is an encouraging thought, because our politicians, our MEPs, do the same. we would still be having many problems, the East is underdeveloped (the World Bank sees the new EU members EU 11 as countries with developmental problems, the South has lost competititveness, except recovering Spain and there is slow growth even in the knowledge-based Nordic countries, Brittain, France and the Netherlands are being degraded. But in a renewed, better defined EU, we would cope with them. China studies Scandinavia, Brittain studies Scandnavia, and we,in CEE see it as a standard and benchmark, where democracy & market & social cohesion work.
Discussion with you has been a pleasure, Morten.
Thank you very much. It is hard to discuss with someone you agree with. Just this one thing. In the nineties I started to notice an alarming amount US and Japanese products in our country. Then I really became fan of the EU because it was the size that mattered. Then came 9/11 and it was horrible, a really sad story. Besides all the talk of terror, war, freind/enemy, oil etc I got even more alarmed, because while most read about Afghanistan and Irak, I keept noticing products and reading the yellow pages. And what a series of merger in US. It was like they had descided to (comando economic) have about one of each type (company), to avoid internal competition, (it also makes it easier for NSA to distribute the collected goodies). It is ofcourse not completly so, but it is a study worth. If we needed to become bigger/merge in the nineties, after 2001 it has become the number one priority, besides political integration.
http://fam.ag/19JQpQh
Mort, we discussed matters of security in this new Europe of ours. I think this article from Foreign Affairs would shed some light along the way.If the link does not work, copy paste it in your browser
Kroum, no I don’t see any long term benefits, why not be more specific and state exactly what they are? Most likely you cannot because it’s typical EU propaganda stating grandiose claims of how much people “benefit” from the EU, but very little hard facts to back them up
The only investment will involve money from my pocket lining the pockets of Ukrianians, and most likely it will be corrupt politicians that get it
The EU has nothing to do with peace and I wish people would stop trying to credit it for something the UN has achieved
Yes those stinky Ukraineans, seriously all you people who are so butthurt about “MY MONEY” should go live on an island in the pacific alone…with your money.
Last i checked the EU put together two of the most volatile countries in the world at the time – Germany and France.
I love it how younger generations today are so ignorant to history it is almost laughable…if they weren’t serious about it.
@Kroum Balabanov: The US not recovering, their RICH are “recovering”, it also counts how statistics are gathered.
The people who found jobs are employed at a 5th of their usual salary, so no recovery.
Also the U-6 indicator , that puts together the normal unemployment level and ADDS people no longer looking and the involuntary part-time show the REAL number – 22%.
The US isn’t rcovering, it just puts up the facade that it is.
@Limbidis Arian
Please refrain from abusing the noble Ukrainian people.
If they want to join with Russia so be it.
Besides if they did join then certain Southern EU beggar nations would end up with less of the charity pot afforded by [in the main] the Northern EU nations.
Kroum Balabanov: Let’s get the obvious out of the way.
I am NOT a believer, i am an atheist so this god stuff doesn’t work on me.
Second my “hate” ( i’d call it disgust ) is not “irrational” but QUITE RATIONAL and based on gathered facts during my time there.
The time i spent in the US, and went on the streets to see their situation on the ground has shown me the real face of America. And it is in a way i don’t want Europe to end up in.
YOU can still believe in the magical land across the ocean who can do no wrong and fight evil muslims for “democracy”, i however have swallowed the red pill and can see clearly through the bullshit.
When i criticize them, i do it based on FACTS – go ahead, verify the US labor statistics for that hidden U-6 that no one talks about.
Go visit Detroit see how they are “recovering”.
Go ask wall street players who said annonymously that they are “getting scared the US’s recovery is built on nothing but hot air”.
Read between the lines.
@Limbidis Arian
The EU will lose its tug-of-war with Russia over Ukraine with the likes of you and your hateful, splenetic invective vitriol supporting it.
PS: Judging from your horrible, irrational, negative and erroneous statements did you swallow BOTH the red pill AND the blue pill as some of your comments are seriously ‘off the wall’!
As a matter of fact I don’t (believe in the shining city on the hill across the Atlantic Sea This is what I lately wrote Morten about the US, I don’t know whether you see it: As for info, after years at BIG 4 I am small time consultant now, who often advises insurance companies on accounting, tax, transfer-pricing matters. I know what info can do there. With the databases they gather they can almost predict our every move (and privacy, info, minority rights are not well guarded and defended down here in CEE). We have the aquis – the EU body of law necessary to be a EU member, but the checks and balances do not work well. We are having problems with our own special services (who often act without ordinance or on political demand), not to mention an overreaching global intel or Big Brother like NSA. And when we need them, they do not help. We had this systemic blunder at Smolensk, where a Polish Plane crashed with 96 people of the political elite, including the incumbent President. A parliamentary delegation visited the US to ask NSA for the tapes of telephone covesrations of the passengers. They refused.
And what would stop (which checks and balances) the NSA from helping let’s say US insurance companies or banks to push some kind of toxic financial product downstream again. You are right, we must develop our own strength, like we did wit ESA, CERN or other European achievements. Since the Young Bush times I have been seeing America depart from democracy and the Rule oF Law in international affairs (Look at Gitmo and the Extraordianary Renditions of the CIA, for which Poland had a proceeding at the European Court of justice today). And the 2000 election – almost rigged. And the 2004 election – Evangeical Christians intimidating democratic voters not to vote. Yet for the time being we, as Europe, would have to balance between the superpowers and still rely on NATO for at least some time in the foreseeable future. It is very difficult to be a de facto leader of the EU and a leader of your own country (like Angela) and sometimes she must be in a conflict of interest. Like when she imposed German style austerity on Greece and the IMF proved to the EU Commission and Germany they were pressurizing Greece too much and the pace of deficit slashing is not sustainable. But the very fact that we talk and understand each other is an encouraging thought, because our politicians, our MEPs, do the same. we would still be having many problems, the East is underdeveloped (the World Bank sees the new EU members EU 11 as countries with developmental problems, the South has lost competititveness, except recovering Spain and there is slow growth even in the knowledge-based Nordic countries, Britain, France and the Netherlands are being degraded. But in a renewed, better defined EU, we would cope with them. China studies Scandinavia, Britain studies Scandnavia, and we,in CEE see it as a standard and benchmark, where democracy & market & social cohesion work”.
Limbidis what you see on the ground is not always a true and fair or even a representative or objective view. That view is better (albeit not perfectly) provided by statistics and international comparisons. Have you consdered the possibility that you hapened to have the experiences you had (in “the promsied land” I mean)?
That is a risk, I agree. If Russia raises their gas prices and we compensate them for this it may turn out that we are indirectly paying Russia off to let the Ukraine go. Now the matter of benefits – the fact that you do not see them does not mean they do not exist. When you tak a new country on into a customs union new trade and investment flows originate, which had been hampered by customs and paracustoms.(trade creation effect). Some existing flows, like Ukr exports to Russia for example get shifted westwards due to the fact that it now pays to sell there and not in Russia (Translation Effect of Economic Integration). Everything in UKraine would require fixing – lots of contracts stimulating exports from the West into the Ukraine and investment from the West into the Ukraine, because their are short of capital. This is basic theory of economic integration supported by multiple econometric studies. This is how the EEC (6) started, then in became EEC 9, 12, 15, 25, 27, 28. The point is that these flows stimulate growth in both the East and the West. The fact that Ireland accomlished a qualitative leap benefited also the UK and the continent through additional demand for imports and through cheaper competitive Irish exports. Much the same is happening with Poland now. It got integrated into Germany’s supply chains offering cheap and competitive components esp for the German Mitelstand of engineering and manufacturing. German exports to Poland rose, German investment in Poland rose. To provide you with numbers of the indirect delayed effects or the full social cost-benefit analyiss would require research, compilation and higher econometrics, for which I do not think you are prepared and therefore why bother. Suffice it to show that you do not know the basics from te History of the EEC/EC/EU and the fundamentals of International Economics since you condescendingly and contemptuously qualify the economic benefits as “propaganda”. The EEC of the 6 grew much faster than it could have grown without economic integration, that why UK, Eire and Denmark joined in 1973. Aha and there is still the Marshall Plan that helped Europe recover, out of American pockets and to the interest of American Exports and investment into that same Europe and ths accelarating growth in America. Ring a bell or you a way too young and took affluence and security for granted.
What ever we think about Russia, it seems to be the only sovereign state left in Europe. Snowden was the litmus test. Whereas the public in EU member states demanded asylum for him, the governments remained helpless due to their more or less involuntary allegiance to the US.
The current EU is not, what many of its supporters in Europe believe, an emerging countervailing power to the US. In contrary, it functions mostly as an US instrument.
Russia can take advantage of this situation in many ways. Not only in influencing states like the Ukraine, but also with raising sympathy among EU core populations.
For example, in many EU member states we observe an increasing resistance against the top down EU values which favour minorities and neglect majority opinions. Parts of the “conservative” value positions of Putin’s government are shared in some member states populations more than the values imposed by the EU bureaucracy (see, e.g., recent votes on family in Croatia).
Whereas the Soviet Union ideologically challenged the US in Western Europe with strong communist parties in states like France and Italy, Russia can do this not only with its natural resources but also by preserving and propagating certain “conservative” values.
Bastian, the fact that the US spies on its closest allies does not mean the EU is their instrment, you ssupect conspiracies where there are none, at leas no proof for it. As for soveriegnity, you understand it in absolute terms – like virginity – either you have it or you do not. By entering NATO and esp. the EU democratic societies agreed to voluntrily transfer parts/functions of sovereignity to supranational bodies. It is true indeed, Russia often plays EU countries or societal segments against each other. But Russia itself is a “multinational” whereby many of the ethnic nations are not allowed sovereignity (Chechens or Tatars for one or for two). It is called a Fed but it resembles a 19th century empire. Germany is a Fed,US is a Fed, Switzerland is a Confed an the UK is a Union, but not Russia. So, which sovereignity did you address? There can be no sovereignity in a non-democratic multiethnic state. Are the Uyghurs in XinJiang sovereign? as to top down values, we all agreed to them either the referendal way or through our democratically elected representatives., i.e. voluntarily (out of our own free will). I agree that many Germans or Dutch or French are disappointed with Multi-culti, probably and mostl by the slow pace of adaptation of minorties and by the fact that many of them do not in fact share Europe’s democratic values. Pobably the set of policies in the area would require a revision. But what I saw on the streets of Amsterdam or Brussels or Frankfurt or London is an atmosphere of tolerance for diversity that we can only desire in the CEE part of the EU. Could it be you have achieved something wihout even noticing?! Don Rumsfeld once accused the old Europe of taking security and affluence for granted. Well, I do not know whether he was right, but it is easy to get used to the benefits and comfort of democracy, that is why the EU still presents an attractive social model and China is studying ..Scandinavia. Me, for crying out loud, I wouldn’t like to return into the dolldrums of the command economy and the managed socialist “democracy”. May be I’m skewed but this one of the reasons I’m not visitig Russia, although I am aware it is no longer comunist, but is not democratic either.
@Bastian:
You are so right. I take my hat off to you.
Interesting comment. Can you be a little more specific about this part?
(The current EU is not, what many of its supporters in Europe believe, an emerging countervailing power to the US. In contrary, it functions mostly as an US instrument.)
Do you have some kind of facts to support this?
Limbidis, I’ll ignore the “younger generation” barb, if that picture is in fact you, I can confidently say I have experienced more than a few years of history than you
I assume with regards to France and Germany you are referring to the European Coal and Steel Community? (Which is actually different to the EEC though they did eventually merge) Anyway, the coal and steel community was just some French pipe dream created under the pretense of peace but mostly driven for commercial reasons and their dislike of the American dominated UN.
The UN was keeping world order years before the ECSC and EEC were even formed
No, the EEC of the 6 was based on mutual benefits. This is what persuaded UK, Ireland and Denmark (their perceived an freely articulated interests) to join in 1973. Not the Coal & Steel, which indeed was at the very beginning.
Catherine, one thing was the Lend-Lease Agreement, the other was the Marshall Plan. The lend-lease, to which GB was signatory is repayable. Besides Staln’s regime was trying to steer the Third Reich into attacking Western Europe (which did occur) whilst preparing himself for war and planning to attack Germany from behind. It was only the quick defeta of France that surprised them. They canno therefore claim sacrsanctly they were attacked in a sudden and cowardly manner and sacrosanctly pretnd they liberated Europe. What a hipocrisy? That they paid the highest price – and whose fault was it and who wanted to attack Germany first? Yet, I have to admit that even in Eastern Europe there was no symmetry between Nazzi and Communism. The Nazzis planned to exterminate entire nations, under communism we gradually managed to grab sovereignity peace by peace.
.. and what can you do ?
Totally acceptable. That’s the game folks, u are doing the same (and worse).
lol denk eerder dat de wereld van hem wakker ligt :D
Someone has forgotten that in foreign policy, it is only “unacceptable” if you don’t have the power to do it. If you do have the power, it suddenly becomes acceptable. That is not a good rule, nor one that only applies to Russia, but it is still the rule.
SCHULTZ was the FIRST to be in Ukraine to make Pressure on the Ukrainians
I don’t need Ukraine in Europe….
Half country is made of Russians. Further, Ukraine dpends from Russia for energy. What do you expect from Russia?
I think its about what the average Ukrainian citizen thinks will make his/her future better and more prosperous. You can hate Russia you can hate the EU. Right now the Ukrainian people want an Association agreement with the EU and they are fighting for it on the streets.
Hatred would not solve anything, Paul Delors. I agree with you, the protesters want it. The interest (long term) of the Ukranian people as expressed in free will should be the foremost criterion. But of which people? Does the East want it too? And if we helped them with a short term aid package, wouldn’t we be financing Russia and Ukranian corruption. And if Russia has a valid interest (in the East), should we not negotiate with Russia too.
Paul X, back then the EEC was popularly dubbed the Common Market. It held together and enlarged because the members and joiners perceived membership as an economic advantage.
Barroso’s comment on ‘the end of limited sovereignty’ is appalling, as if there were no fiscal pact … pressure is pressure, from whatever side it comes. There is no reason to condemn Russia if we are unable to condemn the EU’s policy
@ Kroum
Just exactly what in my post are you saying “no” to?
The European Coal & Steel was formed in 1951, this is the treaty which claimed (without any justification) that peace between France and Germany was to be one its objectives
The EEC came 7 years later and was concerned primarily with trade
The UN was formed in 1945 and therefore predates both treaties which is why I say it is the UN which is responsible for peace in Europe, not the EU
All clear now?
Oh, Thank you for your check up. No, was because you were mumbling about Coal & Steel. But are you finally clear about the economic advantages of integration or are you still worried about money out of your pocket? I had a feeling I was talking colours with a blind man. Discussion with you has been revealing as to the depth and scale of your ignorance. Thank you.
@ Kroum
In a word, No you haven’t cleared anything up
Quote “you do not see the longer term benefits of shifting and new trade and investment flows and more growth in the entire area”
….. and I’m still waiting for you to explain to me exactly what the benefits are?
I suggest people don’t quote a party line without being able to give facts to back it up, that is the action of a blind man, or maybe someone wearing blinkers?
The “mumbling” about coal and steel was in response to another ill informed post which tries to credit the EU for creating peace in Europe, go back and re-read if you want the full story
..and point me in the direction of someone who isn’t worried about money out of their pocket and I will become their new best friend
Peace in Europe, Paul, is another matter, please consult NATO history for a change, after having consulted EEC history (only yesterday) and acquiring the bliss of albeit limited knowledge. Who and how was ill informed was illustrated yesterday, no point of banging against the wall (or talking colours with a blindman). The advantages I am talking is accelerated growth in the west of Europe due to the opening of trade and investment flows in a new direction. But to tell you how much growth it would add to the West of Europe and to the East (e.g.Ukraine) is a task for the Commission, econometrics is no propaganda. You used this argument first. And should you have said that you are worried because you expect an almost certain expenditure for an uncertain and delayed benefit, I wouldn’t have agreed more – it is rational decision making and here you do have a point. But you said it is propaganda. What party line? Are you saying that the EEC/EC/EU so far has not been based on mutual economic advantage? Are you saying, that growth without the Union would have been higher? Then the burden of proof is with you. And are you saying that all the Western Democracies that have joined the EEC/EC/EU so far have been unable to perceive and articulate their economic interests? I am trying to prove this cause indirectly to you, but you know that, I think. When Poland was applying for accession, the Poles did their homework and knew more or less what the benefits would have been for long term growth. EU Structural Funds alone added some 1,5% of growth (within an annual average of 4% over the last 5 years. At least another 1-2% of growth were added by increased exports to EU member countries. We (down here in CEE) knew the Commission and the member countries drafted their own models and scenarios. Are you saying that didn’t happen? These decisions were informed. Where do you see the room for propaganda? Unless there is pro Union propaganda of which I do not know about.
I think that should suffice. Direct and indirect. If not, that you do not want to see any argument. The we will return to the blind man.
@Kroum
Countries only join because of their politicians interests, not their peoples interests. Their politicians interests and corporate interests require more cheap labor.
Oh, and economies cannot grow forever, perpetual growth is impossible. Economic growth has little to do with the EU or anything, and everything with population growth which cannot and will not continue forever. Abolish the undemocratic EU today and it wouldn’t make a dime’s worth of difference for the economy.
And the Commission is an unelected undemocratic Soviet-era style Politburo retread.
what do you expect from a Maoist????and the eussr?
Kroum, you could have saved yourself a lot of typing because you prove my point in just one sentence
” But to tell you how much growth it would add to the West of Europe and to the East (e.g.Ukraine) is a task for the Commission”
That was my point exactly, you accused me of not “seeing the long term benefits” yet you just confess here that you do not know what they are yourself. So I will say again, you are just repeating the “party line” claiming that the EU must benefit me but still cannot explain explain exactly how
..and I agree the EU has been of great benefit to certain countries but it must be obvious to anyone that all the new countries wanting to join are only wanting to so they can also benefit. I do not see any other “rich” countries queuing up to join the EU and become net contributors to the budget and countries like Ukraine joining mean investment is only going to go in one direction
Thank you for your concern, Paul, nevertheless I see it worthwhile. I have to admit there is udoubtful logic in your approach – let those who claim there are benefits in associating the Ukraine with the EU, provide the proof. (Let those who claim that God exists, provide the proof). In that sense EU citizens deserve an open debate with the scenarios and what ifs and who pays and gets what and when (this is only association, not membersip, that approach is more validfor membership, though) Moreover, as I think I wrote earlier, you are right in terms of decision making and risk taking – you are worried by the fact, that even if we associate Ukraine, there would be almost certain costs in the short term and uncertain benefits distributed over time. But you have to agree, it provides you with the comfort of the sceptic. No problem with that. My approach is that integration works most of the time (frequency based, theory and experience so far) even with less developed countries – Poland, Slovakia, the Baltics, Slovenia, Mexico in NAFTA) not to mention previous enlargements (by advanced economies), most of which were a success. To partly shift the burden (not a big burden though) of proof upon you, I am asking again: “did the rich countries, like Germany or Denmark who insisted on Poland joining the Union know what they are doing? Did they not do their homework? Or did, let’s say the UK know what it was doing, upon entry?”
As for the rich countries, you are mostly right, but Switzerland and Norway are de facto members in the sense of law (they say the Commission is stronger and they do not want to risk their market presence in the EU, so basically they comply with most directives and they contribute funds to the EU. As for economic aid, they do have their own programmes for CEE, more directed and targeted and I think cost effective. And who else is left? Israel? I don’t know. Canada – they are in the NAFTA. Iceland. Canada and the US may be with as in a transatlantic partnership (FTA), though that would not be the same as the EU.
The World bank treats EU 11 in a separate basket, thus admitting that these countries do still have developmental problems) You might have been more direct by saying you doubt the benefits of accepting still another less developed country? No offence in that. And you are afraid to transfer resources to yet another less developed country – valid concern. But to us, down here in CEE, the benefits are not propaganda, they are reality. And we cannot imagine it is not beneficial, for let’s say Germany or the UK, otherwise why would they bother. I respect your scepticism, but not doing the work of the Commission is not necessarily propaganda (which is what offended me and we started on the wrong foot), the view on advantages is based on a combination of theory and experience.
Kroum, I appreciate your post and you are correct, I am very sceptical about a lot of things and that includes God. I see too much suffering in this world to be wholly convinced he exists and likewise I see too much wrong with the EU to be convinced that it can possibly be a benefit to all concerned
And I had to smile at your line “Or did, let’s say the UK know what it was doing, upon entry?”
If only you knew how much of a debate asking that question would start!…..the answer is yes, a few politicians knew exactly what they were doing…… unfortunately they failed to tell the people of the UK who were completely deceived about the full implications of joining the EEC, and that is why there has been resentment from the UK ever since….but that’s another story ;-)
Have a nice day
What a lot of people don’t know, is, some tell us the UK was never part of Europe in the first place because entry by Heath was illegal under our law.
http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html
Of course it is another dupe one way or the other. And our ruling class never are held accountable fro their actions. Just the way Blair and his cronies are not banged up by the court in the Hague for war cronies. It only applies to the world small fry that little example or world rule.
Now we are talking, Paul. I respect your logic & your scepticism. I watch the Worldnews of BBC on a daily basis and have been collecting the Economist since the start of the transition. In may ways you may say I am a UK fan. I know the position of Tory backbenchers and the UKIP and none of their arguments are trivial. I recall the latest EU budget debate & D.Cam’s criticism of EU squandering part of the structural and CAP funds. May be I’ve been naive, before entry Poland held a referendum, Bulgaria did not. Debate in pOland was quite open though not very much based on info and merit. Who wouldn’t like to join an elite club of advanced economies to be helped to jump to the next developmental level. Even today, populitsts galore, would like to “squeeze Brussels out” but do not in fact accept democratic values (and dream of Franco & of Pino). I thought in the older and mature democracies (like the UK or Switzerland or Scandinavia) debate is open and more based on merit as is the case with us. But way back in 1973, there wasn’t even talk about knowledge based economies. Anyway, the fact that we understand each other is an encouraging thought in the words of Gandalf, the Grey.
It happens so much these days down here in CEE, Paul. I am finishing Norman Davies’ history of Europe titled “Europe” these days and I was surprise to find ot that the UK did hold a referendum in EEC membership in 1975. Notwithstanding, I believe what you write about failing to present the full implications to the public, is true. At least nowadays the UK is quoted here in Poland for having the proper consultation procedures in place – green paper presentation, white paper after initial consultations, decision. Not so with the Pension Reform in Poland lately.
@Kroum
The part you seem to have missed is that the EU provides benefits to politicians and large corporations, and to wannabe welfare scroungers from eastern Europe who come here to undercut us.
For ordinary people in the west, lower middle class or poor, there are NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER. They’re the ones who lose their jobs first in the ‘race to the bottom’, they’re the ones whose neigbourhoods get flooded first with immigrants from eastern Europe, who often band together creating segregated enclaves within.
You always hear the same thing, the people who benefit or think they will are always for everything, and will always denounce anyone who fails to agree as ‘right-winger’ or ‘little xxx-lander’, as a certain person here seems to do all the time.
@ Marcel
We are Europe. We help each other. It is not a help to get feed. But to feed. Do you think you are better of on your own? The chance dont grab you. You must grab it. If circumstances are hostile to jobs and production, change circumstances. Eg. Portugal who is kind of isolated geografically. Maybe there are areas where Portugal companies and gouvernment should cooperate with Spain. Let go of the pride and solve the problems one by one. It might hurt momentarily, but it will heal on the long run. By cutting down some of the costs, competitiveness raises.
Morten, I want nothing to do with this undemocratic Eurosoviet Union. Europe does not need this politicians’ gravy train.
Do you like your neigbours? Yes? Do you have a common ‘household budget’ with them? Do you give your creditcard to your neighbour? If your neighbours voted that you should pay then a monthly stipend, would you ‘honor’ their ‘democratic’ vote?
Of course not! And you would be right not to.
We need no union in order to be neighbours. Especially not a union where ignoramuses like the unelected Eurosoviet kommissar Cecilia Malmstrom (who lives in an all white upper class neigbourhood) want to decide on our behalf that we need millions more immigrants.
This is an interesting little link……..
http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-interactive-money
Maybe our fellow citizens from Greece should check the UK results and then their own
@Paul X:
Oh, dear, who to believe, You can get so many different points of view from newspapers and others who write a view. Indeed who to believe?
http://thelondoneconomic.com/2013/11/21/desperate-times-do-not-call-for-desperate-measures/
Your little addition is not something to put up as a reason for leaving the EU is it?
The Ukrainians want EU control over their corrupt government. That’s the number one reason why they want their government to sign that agreement.
@Morten
The EU WILL be a backwater as it does not have the volume of people [and declining] or the land/sea mass to compete with other potential blocs.
That is why it is so reluctant to let the UK go, it is so persistent in ‘acquiring’ Ukraine and why its playing the long game in ‘joining’ with Russia.
Indeed the EU is so fearful of its potential diminutive status that it seeks an FTA with the USA ASAP – otherwise it cannot set future trade agendas but it will be subject to same.
@Tarquin
Well, it is an assertion you come with. Here is mine. I think there is some strength in modesty. Where we are today (EU) since 1950, is done mildly, soft and in voluntariness. We still have a great way to go, concerning political integration. Our benefits are still ahead of us. Our expences are at its maximum right now. Am I the only one who sees some tremendous pontential? We are at the moment compeeting with ourselves , still duplicating our time and effort in a costly insisting on national self-determination. I find it retrogressive. The world is moving ahead and we cannot not move with.
I find EU at its finest moment, the moment where every move will create additional cost reductions in exchange for benefits concerning jobs, competitiveness, cooperation etc. We have, I find, relative good trading conditions with most countries in the world. We are mainland, connected to (or part of) the pivot area.
When the EU are complete, it might inhabit 500 – 700 million people, peacefully interacting with the rest of the world, having highspeed railways throug out the whole Eurasien area and getting its energy from renewable sources. UN can be offered a supreme position and AU are getting all the help they need.
GB are free to leave, but we will not understand why. Ukraine will hopefully together with Russia join us and celebrate our Christian origin. And naturally we will get very close to USA – at even level.
Sure, ignore the fact that the lower middle class and the poor did not benefit at all. Ignore that corporations love the race to the bottom and bankers love the guarantees now made on behalf of all Eurozone taxpayers.
Ignore the fact that the EU is undemocratic, that it has no legitimacy, that national democracies are being sidelined, that our money is being stolen, and after Barroso has siphoned off a tax-exempt share for himself is given to Samaras who then siphons off something for himself and gives the rest to his cronies and French/German bankers.
And not only do I want nothing to do with your undemocratic EU, I also want nothing to do with this ‘Christian origin’. Religion, after all, is totally made up nonsense.
@Morten
You ignore the EU’s lack of democracy!
@Morten
I apologise for any putative offence caused BUT I am bumfuzzled by your bemusing, bewildering broadcast of beguiling bilge.
@ Marcel
The lower middle class and the poor will not find any better continent than the European, now and especially later, when we start harvesting the benefits of low production costs and high jobrates.
@ Tarquin Farquhar
You are welcome and no offence recorded. I would very much like to see you come up with any reasonably alternative. Or point out any significant region or union that up trumps EU in democracy.
@ Catherine, LoL, yes indeed who to believe?
I read your link and I agree with a lot of whats said in it. and I will not deny that my sympathies are firmly with what it describes as “living in a metaphorical time machine referring to a nostalgic past etc” But I also accept what it says that right wing parties are “living on empty promises” I’m intelligent to know we will never go back to the “good old days” but I remember them well and I’m perfectly entitled to express my wish for it and if that means voting for Right wing parties then I will do so… it’s called democracy
It also critisises populist parties for presenting “distorted reality and exaggerating problems for their own benefit ” but this statement should also be balanced by the amount the EU spends on its own propaganda machine for example during UK referendum in the 70’s
When I first say your link I was hoping it was going to be information that disproves the information in my own link but unfortunately not. So I’m still entitled to believe that the expenditure and income data is correct and my biggest complain about the EU is still upheld
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=618898078172265&set=a.323404754388267.78236.216543211741089&type=1&theater
The Ukraine has stopped the New Drang nach Osten.
If somebody would ask me if the EU is losing this battle, i would say NO. The reason? There is no war beetwen the EU and Russia. Ukraine is a free and democratic country, its citizens must say if they want or not to join the European Union. I am for the Ukraine admission to the EU because right now there are 200.000 people in Kiev which say they want to join us. Russia can’t tell Ukrainians what to do, so if they want, they`ll join. It is quite sad Russia tries to pull Ukraine out of democracy.
Mr Martin Schulz : WHY are the EUROPEAN POLITICIANS so SHORTSIGHTED .. not paving the only LOGICAL WAY FORWARD and in equal measures INCLUDE RUSSIA in its EASTERN PARTNERSHIP INITIATIVES ? For me personally this speaks of HISTORICAL and GEOPOLITICAL IGNORANCE and / or BETRAYAL of the TRUE INTEREST of EUROPE and its People ! When has EUROPE .. and RUSSIA … bloomed… in PEACE ? When there was a situation of FRIENDLY COOPERATION . THAT MUST BE THE ULTIMATE EUROPEAN … and RUSSIAN … AIM ! SEPARATED both entities will always be WEAK … TOGETHER … we need not fear ANYONE ! That is made EASY .. as we .. CULTURALLY .. considering the MAJORITY of People .. are of the SAME STOCK . Let me Re-post a beautiful event once in Denmark , which describes the deep Desire amongst EUROPEANS to build bridges Eastward … please Mr Martin Schulz .. get the text translated..it says it all !: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBT-KrgCGko
And for those who do not understand Danish ..here a hasty attempt of Translation : When the slumbering Bear in his Den
Awakens after longlasting Sleep
And wanders in greening valleys
The Russian Winter is at an end .
He is hungry to find a place
Where the bee has left some honey
But he longs for a plush-fured Queen
To share his happiness with
( Refrain ) l la la la
At a river , where the black stork stands
And the trout jump so lively
He sees her..he dreamt to love
Appear out of the Russian spring
It is sunshine and springtime once more
After hardships of icy winters
Come back ? you blessed Glasnost
And ? well met ? you my beloved friend
( Refrain ) l la la la
And even if the she- bear is a bit shy
She says .. YES ?to her loving mate
And together they leave .. without looking back
Towards a summer , dreamt about and new
( Refrain ) l la la la
Poul Dissing : ? What a Choir ! ?
Ukraine is not the only attack of Russia against EU oriented countries, here in Bulgaria we are 170 days on the streets, taking beating and humiliation by police every day, since the current government come in power by cheating, control over the media, journalists are getting beaten and tortured if they say the truth in public.
How the EU will protect Bulgarian citizens as their members from this terror from pro Russian oriented government who nobody wants?
What EU will do to cause normal and fair preliminary elections in Bulgaria and when?
What protection guarantee EU for Bulgarian citizens who protest already 170 days on the streets from police terror (Russian style)?
Ogmios, my compatriot, Hello! Dobyr den. The EU accepted us based on the premise we do not have such problems, on the premise the country is a democracy, based on the rule of law (the aquis). It has no direct ways to interfere into the internal affairs of a member country. If you think that human rights are violated or justice is not done properly, you go either the European Court Of Justce or the European Court of Human Rights, but only after you have exhausted the legal path in your own country. Anothe indirect way is to interfere through EU Parliament, as is the case with Hungary, where democratic rights are notoriously breached. Another indirect way is the Control and Verification Mechanism and OLAF (the Fraud Pursuing Auditor)for Rom & BG to help us fight wit corruption at the highest levels of power and organised crime. Yet another mechanism is provided by the World Bank, which helps the EU 11 (the new members) because they all have developmental problems and so on. And it may be true that this govt is pro-Russian (not so sure), but Putin effectively gets everything from ever govt in our country left & right alike, using all levers of influence that he has on us. And it is not true that nobody wants the BSP govt, together with the Turks/DPS they outmanouevred Gerb, which happens in democracy, but they still were legally elected. But please ask yourself why it is that the people overthrew the Gerb Govt in the first place, and why is it that no one wanted a coalition with Borissov – in the second.
You can’t expect the EU to solve all our problems concerning the fact it accepts working democracies.
People who protest pro-EU have no idea what they demand.
Basically, the protest is pro a slogan, nothing more.
I’m from Romania and I can vouch that most people in this part of the world have no idea what joining EU means.
Even today, 6 years after joining the EU, most people in Romania have absolutely no idea how EU works. Even educated people no almost nothing about it – they don’t know even the basic institutions of the EU. This isn’t stopping them from being pro-european.
Even the info that since 2007, a poor country such as Romania has contributed to the EU budget twice the amount of money it has received failed to stir much emotion.
Let me give you an example of how this pro-EU feeling works in Eastern Europe.
People are enthusiastic about the EU, but they disagree with most things considered European values or regulations. For instance, homophobia or hatred against minorities are often displayed by the same people who claim to be pro-European.
With infringement procedures against Romania, we all agree here that we must comply to the EU legislation, but all oppose any concrete measures to achieve compliance, despite the fact that nobody will openly state that EU regulations are often stupid and destructive and they simply need to be challenged, not complied to.
This is conformist behavior developed by Eastern nations during the years of totalitarian regimes. Ranging from Government to common people on the streets, they all KNOW that EU is the designated “good” and being pro-EU is the thing to be.
Being against the EU is reactionary, is against the progress of mankind as just as being anticommunist used to be prior to the fall of communist regimes. In politics, being against EU is a death sentence in Romania.
EU IS GOOD: this is given, this is an axiom to them. They just can’t challenge pro-EU statements.
But after asking people in Romania (or Ukraine) about EU, ask them what they think we should do to homosexuals. You might get a large percentage of Iran-type responses.
If you wish to see such examples of schizoid behavior, just read the comment above of mr. Ogmios, who thinks that Bulgaria is attacked by Russia because he doesn’t like the current government of Bulgaria. His comment could be categorized as delusional if it were not simply misleading.
We all know here that the basic political idea of orange revolutionaries in Eastern Europe is that elections are only fair only fair as long as they win. And if they don’t, a revolution is in order.
The Romanian president has been issuing for years delusional complaints about coups almost on a monthly basis, every time the Parliament passed a law he disliked.
Foreign dignitaries and politicians such as Kaczynski attending the protests in Kiev is simply unacceptable. Ukraine should have at least declared them personae non gratae.
Imagine Putin attending a anti-EU protests in Minsk, Tiraspol, Sevastopol, in Bucharest, Sofia or Belgrade!
And still those guys claim Russia to be the “aggressor”!
Thanks, Gabriel, for sharing. For the new entrants EU is good in the sense of providing capital, knowledge and the aquis for these countries to make it to the next level of development – from middle income countries to advanced, knowledge – based economies. It provides us with a Marshall Plan (which we were denied under Stalin) to catch up with the West. The benefits to the advanced economies are far less visible and delayed over time. Besides Poland is not puling Germany as strongly as Germany is pulling Poland, simply because the Polish Economy is 4 times smaller.
I have to agree with most of your comments – the delusions, the conspiracy theories and the failure on the part of many people in PL , Rom & BG to learn and to accept EU values. Russia is not a demon and there is a soft spot for it in the heart of every Bulgarian (Russo-Turkish War of 1977-1978) and, as you can guess, I am Bulgarian. What worries us is that Putin’s generation has no respect for the sovereignity of other nations, especially the smaller ones, like mine.They still do have important groups of interest in BG (intel, bizz, political) and they still can apply and exert undue pressure, which does pose a breach to sovereignity. Putin can get almost anything he wants from all Bulgarian prime ministers – left & right alike – the Bulgarian Oil Refineries Privatization at Burgas, the Shale Gas Drilling Act blocking, The Kozloduj Nuclear Power Plant Modernization Contract, The Belene Nuclear Power Plant Equipment Contract. And if our nations have been deprived of info for so long, what do you expect, many people cut corners and grasp for conspiracies – like the alleged Smolensk Conspiracy in Poland (That the aircrash that killed 96 people of the Polish Political elite was masterminded by the FSB – now that is madness, ins’t it). Besides it is often easier to attribute the problem to a conspiracy than accept unpleasent truths about yourself (your country), like systemimic failure, for instance.
I don’t know about Russian influence in Bulgaria (but is Russia attacking Bulgaria? Let’s be serious).
The fact is that Russia has virtually no influence in Romania which does not stop politicians like Băsescu from issuing theories about Russian conspiracies on a regular basis. If they know so much about pro-Russian conspirators, why aren’t they arresting them? I mean that’s treason, it’s a crime, they should do something about it other than talk shows.
In fact, our nations already lost their sovereignty not to Russia but to western powers.
Western powers are not about to pull us to the next level of development – from middle income countries to advanced, knowledge – based economies. I stated in my previous comment that Romania had contributed to the EU budget twice the sum it had received back since 2007.
We are subsidizing EU, not the other way around, but we are treated like shit in the West. I know guides who gave up tourism in the West in favor of the Balkans and Turkey, because of the way we are being treated there, although we’re net contributors to the EU budget.
On the contrary, they are pushing us from middle income to third world nations.
Not attacking, Gabriel. But exercising influence that affects key decisions. I don’t know about Romania – even in Ceasusescu time it was considered wayward by the Russians. But Russia exercises pressure and manipulates even the Poles to play against each other.
But this is not true for Poland and Bulgaria, how can it be true for Romania?
When Poland joined the EU its per capita GDP was 43% of the Union avg at PPP and Bulgaria’s 39%, Romania’s -43%. Now it is 66% for Poland, 47% for BG, 49 or 52 for Romania. Are you saying you would have done better going it alone? On what planet?
@Gabriel
I do not doubt your veracity BUT would you please kindly provide me with the sources relating to your posit that Romania is a net EU contributor please.
If true, Romania would be looked on more favourably by the Northern EU nations.
Is the EU losing its tug-of-war with Russia over Ukraine?
Wrong question! In reality: “Is the German-led West European Usurers Corporation (disguised as “European Union”) losing the war against Russia over Ukraine?”
Apparently (and fortunately for Europe) YES! Losing the war may weakening 4th Reich’s capacity to impose its economic order over Europe. The revival of WW II alliance between the true European powers (the UK, France and Russia) against its major enemy (the 4th Reich) is tantamanount for a real democratic, liberal Europe. At any case, the Ukraine fits well in a custom’s Union with ex-soviet republics (geopolitical and geostrategic perspective) than be a new terra of exploitation for the German imperium.
@Morten Lund
Thanks for your polite comments, much appreciated.
Civility before hostility I say.
With that in mind, what on earth was your penultimate post trying to say?
@ Tarquin Farquhar
Merry Christmas and thank you.
In short I just tried to say that I do not like monopoly, when it is not God.
@Morten Lund
Thanks old chap – as a native English language speaker with several degrees (2xUK and 1xUS) I found your text a tad difficult to comprehend.
Apologies for being the bearer of bad news – your efforts were much appreciated in any event.
Impose immediate sanctions!
So now that the Ukrainians need us the most, we are going to place sanctions on them? Perhaps we should only place sanctions against their politicians.. Do not place sanctions that will affect the citizens for something that their leaders are doing.. Do their leaders have bank accounts or property in the West? Well there you go.. Reveal everything….
Go home UE, you?re drunk!
How about the EU mind its OWN business .. These are not “peaceful” protests, the EU is sponsoring VIOLENCE just as it is in Syria by siding with radicals .. EU is exposing itself big time, and when you side with violent radicals, it speaks allot about the EU.
https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoVxJEeFSRHkAYhWJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIzbjQ0MGxrBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM0ZmJjMGEyZWFhMjA2MzlmZWI2MWY0OWFhMTI3YzA4MwRncG9zAzExBGl0A2Jpbmc-?back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DUkraine%2Bprotester%2Bwith%2Bgun%26n%3D60%26ei%3Dutf-8%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D11&w=2100&h=1342&imgurl=clikhear.palmbeachpost.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2Ffi.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fclikhear.palmbeachpost.com%2F2014%2Fpotw%2Fpictures-of-the-week-01-19-%25E2%2580%2594-01-25-2014%2F&size=399.7KB&name=Pictures+of+the+Week%3A+01.19+%E2%80%94+01.25+2014+%7C+CLIK%2FHEAR+%7C+Multimedia+…&p=Ukraine+protester+with+gun&oid=4fbc0a2eaa20639feb61f49aa127c083&fr2=&fr=&tt=Pictures+of+the+Week%3A+01.19+%E2%80%94+01.25+2014+%7C+CLIK%2FHEAR+%7C+Multimedia+…&b=0&ni=128&no=11&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12s56trof&sigb=13ach5goc&sigi=11ssgn4de&.crumb=Z8n/E9H1wsk&
They should stop doing harm to everyone, the EU!
You never mention the other half of Ukraine that does not want the eu , guess they don`t count.
Yess , rethink immediately , give more support than ever. Ukraine people deserved it.
Overhyped frenzy by the media. There is NO majority of Ukranians that want to join the EU, so stop this misinformation campaign.
EU should mind their own business, we don’t want a new Syria.
We should concentrate in better cooperation with the ukrainian people and their elected goverment(its not relevant if we like them or not!!), invest more, create better chances for the people there but intervening in their own internal affairs is completely unacceptable.
We don’t want this EU.
EU rulers will get a big suprise in the upcoming elections, that’s a fact.
If Ukraine wants to join the EU, it will be decided solely by the ukrainian people and not the EU beaurocracy .
Considering the protests have now been taken over by far right nationalist groups who think Svoboda is too soft… yes.
we don’t have enough information about what’s going on in Ukraine. therefore, we cannot discuss this matter for the time being.
EU proves itself incompetent again! Ukraine needs support, not you to think or rethink too much. Economic sanctions coupled with Westerners getting used to the cold. Sort of like the protesters have for months in the Maidan. I guess showing sympathy never killed anyone ;)
there are also states who are members of the E.U. (an example is Romania) and where the brutality of the police and of the military forces is at the same level as in Ukraine. There are states in the E.U. in which the budget for health is just a small part from the budgets allocated for mentaining military structures who can be used for intimidating those who do not agree the official policy. Before debating about the Ukraine (where it’s obvious that a gangster group will do everything to maintain power) the E.U. should also look at the situation in its new regions. It is part of the european paradigma to spend more money for watching and intimidating people rather then spending those money for heal them? The question is important because the construction of the european identity should include a common paradigm. A paradigm which must be assimilated not only by the phylosophers (or theoreticians in general) but in special by those who have the logisticall instruments to apply a policy or another. So, is the E.U. a space of freedom or just an another birocratic and militarized zone just like many others in history which promited a lot and ended with nothing? I’m not an eurosceptic and I like to see in the european project something solid but untill a solid base (in which FREEDOM and HEALTH are considered the two most important rights) is not consolidated, that all the project is just an another big illusion.
there are also states who are members of the E.U. (an example is Romania) and where the brutality of the police and of the military forces is at the same level as in Ukraine. There are states in the E.U. in which the budget for health is just a small part from the budgets allocated for mentaining military structures who can be used for intimidating those who do not agree the official policy. Before debating about the Ukraine (where it’s obvious that a gangster group will do everything to maintain power) the E.U. should also look at the situation in its new regions. It is part of the european paradigma to spend more money for watching and intimidating people rather then spending those money for heal them? The question is important because the construction of the european identity should include a common paradigm. A paradigm which must be assimilated not only by the phylosophers (or theoreticians in general) but in special by those who have the logisticall instruments to apply a policy or another. So, is the E.U. a space of freedom or just an another birocratic and militarized zone just like many others in history which promited a lot and ended with nothing? I’m not an eurosceptic and I like to see in the european project something solid but untill a solid base (in which FREEDOM and HEALTH are considered the two most important rights) is not consolidated, that all the project is just an another big illusion.
Yes !Should the EU re-think its relationsship with Ukraine !
Yes !Should the EU re-think its relationsship with Ukraine !
I would like to let you know something. In a suburb of a spanish city, Burgos, people has been doing the same as ucranians. But our Media are calling heroes to ucranians and terrorist to our people… What do YOU think about it? Should EU re-think what to do with their OWN states???
Ukraine provides two things: strategic position and agricultural and mineral products. The latter are frequently important, but the former is universally important. Ukraine is central to Russia’s defensibility. Moreover, Ukraine is home to two critical ports, Odessa and Sevastopol, which are even more important to Russia than the port of Novorossiysk. Losing commercial and military access to those ports would completely undermine Russia’s influence in the Black Sea and cut off its access to the Mediterranean.
From the perspective of Europe, and particularly from the perspectives of former Soviet satellites, a Ukraine dominated by Russia would represent a potential threat from southern Poland to Romania. These countries already depend on Russian energy, fully aware that the Russians may eventually use that dependence as a lever to gain control over them.
Ukraine is not quite as strategically significant to Europe as it is to Russia. Europe never wanted to add Ukraine to its ranks; it merely wanted to open the door to the possibility. The European Union is in shambles. Given the horrific economic problems of Southern Europe, the idea of adding a country as weak and disorganized as Ukraine to the bloc is preposterous. The European Union has a cultural imperative among its elite toward expansion, an imperative that led them to include countries such as Cyprus. Cultural imperatives are hard to change, and so an invitation went out with no serious intentions behind it.
The Germans are playing a complex game. They understood that Ukrainian membership in the European Union was unlikely to happen anytime soon. They also had important dealings with Russia, with which they had mutual energy and investment interests. It was odd that Berlin would support the demonstrators so publicly. However, the Germans were also managing coalitions within the European Union. The Baltic states and Poland were eager to see Ukraine drawn out of the Russian camp, since that would provide a needed, if incomplete, buffer between them and Russia (Belarus is still inside Russia’s sphere of influence). Therefore, the Germans had to choose between European partners, who cared about Ukraine, and Russia.
The Russians have remained relatively calm — and quiet — throughout Ukraine’s protests. They understood that their power in Ukraine rested on more than simply one man or his party, so they allowed the crisis to stew.
The Russians also knew that the more tightly pro-Western forces controlled Kiev, the more fractious Ukraine could become. In general, eastern Ukraine is more oriented toward Russia: Its residents speak Russian, are Russian Orthodox and are loyal to the Moscow Patriarchy. Western Ukraine is oriented more toward Europe; its residents are Catholic or are loyal to the Kiev Patriarchy. These generalities belie a much more complex situation, of course. Nevertheless, the tension between the regions is real, and heavy pro-EU pressure could split the country. If that were to happen, the bloc would find itself operating in chaos, but then the European Union did not have the wherewithal to operate meaningfully in Ukraine in the first place.
In any case, the stakes are high in Ukraine. The Russians are involved in a game they cannot afford to lose. There are several ways for them to win it. They only need to make the EU opening untenable for the Ukrainians, something Ukraine’s economic and social conditions facilitate. The Europeans are not going to be surging into Ukraine anytime soon, and while Poland would prefer that Ukraine remain neutral, Warsaw does not necessarily need a pro-Western Ukraine. The United States is interested in Ukraine as an irritant to Russia but is unwilling to take serious risks.
In most countries, the events in Kiev would not have generated global interest. When you are a country like Ukraine, even nominal instability generates not only interest but also pressure and even intervention from all directions. This has been the historical problem of Ukraine. It is a country in an important location, and the pressures on it tend to magnify any internal conflicts until they destabilize the country in excess of the significance of the internal issues.
I agree with your point that Ukraine is not equally important to the West as it is to Russia, hence Russia raised the stakes …and bluffed the EU out of Yanukoych’s mind. You are also probably right that Russia cannot afford to lose Ukraine not merely for strategic and economic reasons, but also for cultural and historical ones, even psychological. Russia without the cradle of the Rus and christianity in theses lands (Kiev) is somehow incomplete in the minds of ordinary Russians. I also agree with your assessment of Germany’s position. However, the Poles would lve to see a democratics and thriving Ukraine – for strategic, political and historical reasons – they can reconcile over the Past only with a democratic Ukraine. True, the EU is still in disarray and has not fully recovered and it is simply not ready to take a vast and disorderly country as Ukraine on board now. In fact it is the last thing the EU needs. Maybe, giving them the chance of association with the EU under a supevision mechanism like the Troyka over Greece, but including the World Bank, would lead them somewhere. It will have to include a serious aid and development package (IBRD) and a stabilization package (IMF) and preaccession know how & funds. The World Bank estimated somewhere in 2005, that for the Ukraine to be “overhauled “some 150 billion dollars would have been needed (not immediately and not in one chunk) but over many years. Greece used a comparable amount (without the debt reduction). Putting them on a pre-accession path does not necessarily mean accession – look at Turkey. Accession, however would probably require another debate with referendal votes and (as I think we agreed with Paul X above), full disclosure of the costs and benefits of accession under different scenarios, such that the referendal vote would be an informed decision. But the immediate concern is – OK, let’s say the Ukraine decides to sign the Agreement with the EU now and Russia balks at its pref gas prices for Ukraine or its further aid. Will we be ready to trump that out or compensate this to the Ukraine? Not quite, I think, simply the risk is too high, with Ukraine corrupt and in disarray. And then we arrive at the imperatives (leaps of faith), which you rightly mentioned above….
Learn Russian, soon we will come to you! ))))
You would have to face the combined forces of NATO and esp of the US first, to whom you are no match, not even by a long shot. And should we have to live through another Cold War, we, the West will survive, because the Combined GDP of the EU is Russia’s tenfold. Moreover, we do know Russian from the Old & Evil Empire, now that it attempts to strike back. And Russia despite all its high culture & inteligentsia would return to the Stone Age, again.
It’s so funny when all of these Europeans complain about their troubles inside the European Union, all the difficulty, all the economic hardship! Poor soft Europeans, the easy comfortable life made them into whiners. I don’t see any of them leaving the EU to join the Eurasian union. Go be a slave nation to the Russians, see how you like it. Russians will appoint political overlords over your countries, let the Russian take away your right to elect leaders inside your governments. The second you decide you had enough, and go out into the streets, the great leader PUTIN will send in the Tanks, and blame everything on fascists in America!
A lot of these whiners haven’t lived a day in a country such as this and would soil their pants in seconds.
They are the same clowns advocating for ditching Ukraine into the gutter for their own comfort.
Something weighing heavily on my mind. Why would the EU allow the governments of its ten different regions to bring in a massive influx of immigrants into each one of its member nations’? I think of the word displacement. We already have a wealth devide because of these new social reforms. We already have socialistic “Progressive” reform based on UN-HABITAT implementation in various agencies, both state and federal, who are using a ground up approach predominately through our school systems. We have the aquisition of private lands because of various federal agencies, like the EPA and the BLM, according to what’s been laid out in Agenda 21. We have Obama trying to inact Marshal Law through civil rebellion to confiscate our weapons and round up people who think upon my line of reasoning. They have exerted control over the churches, making them tax exempt, but in so doing have interrupted it’s very moral fabric and compromising the very souls of our children. Our courts operate under Maritime Law and not common law as it is supposed to be. They are not functioning withen there ten miles square as had been originally devised. They are putting in puppets who are not elected by the people. The Electoral College can swing vote and votes are bought. The fed bought 60% of GMC stock after the financial crises when the economic bubble burst. Etc…. Etc…. Etc…. but anyway back to immigration.
Now think of it this way. When one considers the above information and the fact that people are becoming aware of the corruption of their governments and that people want their freedom and liberty back as instituted by the bill of rights and the preamble of our Constitution that traces it’s roots back to the Magna Carta than doesn’t it make sense, that after having created a partition between the rich and the poor the Fed that is a corrupt entity being used by foreign agents in the EU through the IMF would bring in a base of voters who would pay fealty to its new form of government due to the fact that the illegal aliens who are comming here not only get three years back taxes and citizenship but also that they get DSHS and other benefits that we have paid for ourselves and have the right to vote as an illigal. But never mind that. NATO believes they will be able to control the immagrants by inacting a new policy to close off the borders as a means to subvert an overthrow of the governments that they have set up to run the show. And now that they have established a new base of citizens who will pay fealty to its debtors(governments)people who have the hindsight of historical research who know the Constitution and what our founders of this country, who came here before 1609 in the Mayflower and we’re friendly with the Native Americans, stood for. It wasn’t until George Washington, who was not the first president of the continental united states of America but was the first of the United States inc., that hostilities really began to flare. The 13th amendment did not serve to make slaves free. In the end it really only served to further the powers of this corporate beast to inslave all of us. The 13th amendment you see in your current Constitution isn’t even the original one. So now that the IMF knows that we know what it is up to it is trying to orchastrate a third world war to divert us into a sense of nationalistic pride in order to divert our attentions from the matter at hand.
May the spirit of Christ go before you.