A rather heated public debate has been taking place in several EU member states recently over ‘welfare tourism’. Earlier this year, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Britain complained to the European Commission that citizens from some Member States (presumably those east of the Oder) were coming to their countries in order to scrounge off their generous benefits systems without contributing anything in return.
In response, the European Commission published a report which found that “workers from other Member States are net contributors to the public finances of the host country” and that “migrant workers from other Member States usually pay more into host country budgets in taxes and social security than they receive in benefits because they tend to be younger and more economically-active than host countries’ own workforce.”
The report compliments the findings of other studies that find EU migrants are net benefits to the social security systems of Member States, including studies from the OECD, the Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration and the Centre for European Reform.
Not everybody is convinced, however. We had a comment sent in from Kim arguing that it stands to reason that low-skilled migrants must ultimately be harmful to welfare systems:
Unskilled labor moves to countries with beneficial welfare programs [until] in the end it will be the death knell of the welfare state.
We took Kim’s complaint to Phil Bennion, a British Liberal Democrat MEP, to see how he would respond:
In addition, we put Kim’s comment to Joan Burton, the Irish Minister for Social Protection. As the minister responsible for Ireland’s welfare system, how would she react?
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Well, first of all, I believe that the topic of migration will be one of the biggest issues during the election campaign. Secondly, all of the research done so far shows us that it benefits the economy of the host country to have migration. And, when people come from poorer countries to richer countries in Europe in order to work, they often take up jobs that local citizens are not interested in having. So, in general, I believe that migration inside the EU is a positive thing and the free movement of workers is one of the most fundamental issues and a good thing about the European Union.
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is a myth!…the english say that?
@George Bariz
It happens in the UK – EU continentals are regularly prosecuted for such crimes. If you ever read the UK papers you would be aware of such a phenomenon.
It happens in Ireland – I saw a documentary on RTE about same, it showed Portuguese and Italians abusing the Irish equivalent of JSA. It also showed a Nigerian family of 8 claiming benefits in both the UK and Ireland.
I even had an experience whilst in Switzerland a few years ago and the taxi-driver told me that because of Easyjet he was able to pop over to the UK every fortnight and claim benefits for him and his family [on the assumption that he lived and worked in the UK] whilst living and working in Switzerland.
Might I suggest Mr ‘bizarre’ Bariz that you do some research before putting finger to keyboard otherwise you might end up [as on this occasion] looking like a nincompoop!
YES they are!!!!
should we call “migrant” an EU citizen who enjoys his fundamental right of free movement? In all these countries, residents need social security numbers, resident permits,in some cases health insurance cards and all the other procedural measures in order to apply for any benefits. How is this tourism even possible? How did it get to the level of alarming data, which had to be notified to the EC? Maybe this is just a protectionism measure taken by very strong old MS against new comers. My impression is that, at the moment, EU should better tackle the burdens imposed on its citizens’ fundamental rights. On a different note, we talk all the time about increasing the efficiency of the market, but we fail to recognize that all those “migrants” are also consumers, keeping the demand of goods and services in the mentioned countries quite high.
@Nir hannah
In answer to your first question. If you are not a British citizen then YOU are a foreigner in the context of the UK – simples.
Indeed, if the UK was to go to war with say Argentina YOU would NOT fight for the UK as YOU are a foreigner. Do you understand?
Most EU migrants to the UK have a positive financial impact on the UK, especially the Poles, but nonetheless BENEFIT TOURISM does exist. Please do some research before making comments only a jobbernowl would make.
I would be less averse to giving away free money, billions upon billions upon billions of pounds/euros each and every year to the poorer EU countries in the interests of ‘SoliCharity’ if and only if all EU nations that net-benefitted from my UK contributions and indeed those of France, Germany, Netherlands etc were each forced to have an “EU Beggar Nation Day” whereupon said beggar nations could wax lyrical and show gratitude regarding the tons of monies that they get for free from the likes of France, Germany, UK, Netherlands etc
Why should Member States be able to take economic advantage of migrants and be allowed to shirk their responsibility to provide social welfare to individuals living within their borders? Social Europe means all European citizens should have common rights – economic and social.
@Paul Robertson
Why should UK citizens be under-priced out of work by foreign EU continentals?
Why should some foreign EU continentals [albeit a relatively small percentage] abuse UK state benefits?
Why should I pay my hard-earned pounds to support peoples in countries that systematically abuse my countries largesse?
‘Social Europe’ has meant that the UK has PAID to upskill and upgrade foreign EU continental workforces and then see our own jobs repatriated to said EU foreign continental workforces?
‘Social Europe’ has meant that the UK loses c£3billion pa to let Spanish & Portuguese fishermen plunder UK fish stocks.
‘Social Europe’ has meant that the UK cannot afford to help support its own people effectively in terms of healthcare and social care.
I don’t want a barbaric social system as-is evident in the USA BUT ‘Social Europe’ needs to change.
The beggar nations need to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps and stop relying on ‘SoliCharity’.
Of course there’s a problem and the report says nothing to prove there isn’t:
“The vast majority of EU nationals moving to another EU country do so to work”
“Non-active EU mobile citizens represent a very small share of the total population in each Member State”
“Expenditures associated with healthcare provided to non-active EU mobile citizens are very small relative to the size of total health spending”
It uses phrases like “vast majority” and “very small” as if there is an acceptable level? There is NO acceptable level, even one person who comes to our country with no intention of contributing to society is one too many. That one person is depriving someone who works and pays their way of what they are entitled to.
Nobody should be allowed to enter the UK without proof that they are able to support themselves, and as a lifelong UK taxpayer I’m perfectly entitled to say that. I prefer to choose what charities I contribute to
If an individual decides they want to live and work in another country then they should gain employment first then find somewhere to live and support themselves or the company they are working for should support them. It shouldn’t be allowed that taxes collected in a host country go toward supporting them in any way. Those taxes should be used for the benefit of those that have paid into the system and anyone coming in to a host country should be vetted to meet criteria set or rejected if they don’t. The UK isn’t the only European country being overwhelmed by immigrants. The EU has to stop talking about the problem and get down to doing something about it. When a country can’t take mire they should be allowed to say so and stop immigrants coming in!
Well in Germany in the area around duisburg,krefeld,m`gladbach there are gangs settling to from Romania.They use kids to rob people when they take their money at cash machines.They just stand around like they don t care,but after you typed in your PIN some of them holds you while an other types in the amount of money that he likes to.Then they just run away.If you beat them up in the worst,you would get in jail for beating up children but if the police finds them ,they can t do anything for under 14 year old are not liable.Most of the kids were arrested like 20 times but were brougth to their parents place and left there cause they re not liable.
The “British” welfare system and the NHS, are both organizations, created and paid for by “British” people, to offer “British” people support in times of need.
They are not EU systems paid for by EU citizens, or intended for all or any EU members!
No one saves money for a rainy day, and is happy when this money is stolen by a government to give to someone who hasn’t saved!
If you haven’t paid in, a sufficient amount, you have no right to take out!
The answer to this problem of Europeans using their ‘right to free movement’ is so simple I cannot understand the idiocy shown by this question. Why are those we pay such high, untaxed salaries, unable to figure out the most basic of policies?
All European States must have the same welfare, health, education, housing opportunities in every part of our Union. What the hell is wrong with that?
If I want to go from the UK to live in, say, Germany, and that country doesn’t offer the same welfare, housing, health care, education as I receive in the UK, then I am at a disadvantage when wanting to choose my area best suited to me. Because, I, as a citizen of the EU should be able to access exactly the same benefits as I would if I remained in the UK.
That way it would be a truly integrated European society. Why is a citizen of one state not worth the same duty of care right across the EU? Surely the ‘Human Rights Act’ insists we are equals in all matters, and this is surely the most fundamental of all of them. Making the freedom of movement possible in the true sense of it.
Why should a pensioner in one State not be paid the same in every State? And the amount that is equal to the highest across the union. The same for disabled people, the highest in the union. Child care, child benefit benefits, taxation, standard of living. A standard for all EU states. That would make us seriously free to move wherever we wanted to be and keep us equally able to survive when deciding which environment we felt happiest in.
It would raise the standard and quality of life for us all in one swoop. No more squabbles about who is giving the most to whom, no more heartache having to leave a home we wanted to remain in because we financially wouldn’t be unable to survive. Imagine the utter contentment of being able to spend many years working or living with a spouse in one are of the union, and when the end is nigh, moving back home without the fear of being destitute or rejected as an incomer.
We are all European, we deserve what we pay for in our taxes in every State in that union. No matter which we choose for our home.
However, we are not a home from home to the rest of the world. Those from outside Europe should have no access to these benefits under any circumstances, as, asylum is a confidence trick. And we all know it. Pretending we are running for sainthood is absurd. That position is for the Vatican. Let all asylum seekers and those looking for a leg up, move to those places set up by a Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, brotherhoods. That is the place for them. After all, we are secular are we not?
For example, I may love to live on the Ilse of Capri for awhile, but, could be held back without the benefits I would have to resettle the way I would in the UK. Isn’t that absurd for a continent that claims it is claiming to be one united union?
A family who has a disabled child or mother would like to live in say, the South of France or by the Lakes in Geneva, yet cannot broaden their horizons because they would lose their established UK benefits, thus making it impossible to reach their optimum experience. Why should the ordinary people who keep this economy going be hampered that way? After all aren’t we all equal in every other way. Why should financial status make us unequal? Anyone want to explore?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuf22PfWgsQ
We should also follow the full employment path, once the way of life in the UK 1960’s. They know how to provide these jobs without turning the entire union into a fast food dump. And without putting up a front of pretense that they already have it. The UK is presently in the middle of pretending we have riased to job market and have less unemployment. It another confidence trick readying us for the general election 2015.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtYfXCB9Ebw
This way we could avoid more of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koMRz3jjyi0&list=PL5iWgWpXRlsQaBzpwdM4WiADKChD5xggX
“All European States must have the same welfare, health, education, housing opportunities in every part of our Union. What the hell is wrong with that?”
Because basically you would also need to harmonise wages and taxes across all EU countries as well.
With the current disparity of wages if you (for example) offer Bulgarians the same level of welfare benefits as the UK, then nobody in Bulgaria would bother working because welfare will be better than their wages
The other option of course is harmonise welfare to the lowest common denominator in Europe but then millions of people in the more expensive countries will starve to death
@Catherine Benning
BTW, your secular socialist invective is reminiscent of NATIONAL SOCIALISM – given your frequent racialist comments I am concerned that you are nothing but a closet FUHRER.
Furthermore, your rhetorical question “Why should a pensioner in one State not be paid the same in every State?” demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of economics – trying to ‘equalitize’ highly asymmetric economies is not only unfair BUT it will cause great strife and resentment.
Indeed you seem incapable of understanding your own illogic – ‘make things fairer by unfairly robbing off wealthy EU nations to give to poorer EU nations’.
As a Brit, my responsibility toward poor continental EU nations is to help them if they are hungry, help them if they are needy etc etc.
But I will NOT subsidize poor EU nation lifestyles by imposing a wrong [unfair, unnecessary and unwanted distribution of wealth] to right a wrong [some EU countries are relatively poor but NOT absolutely poor] – NO CHARITIZATION WITHOUT GOVERNIZATION!
@Catherine Benning
YET another RACIST posting!
In your own words you state:
“However, we are not a home from home to the rest of the world. Those from outside Europe should have no access to these benefits under any circumstances, as, asylum is a confidence trick. And we all know it.”
Clearly, you don’t mind letting “Europeans” exploit cross-border benefits but you do mind if genuine deserving asylum seekers that seek refuge in the EU do likewise.
For those unfortunate genuine asylum seekers who happen NOT to be “European” you would deprive them of benefits?, starve them?, dehumanise them?
I thought the THIRD REICH had been vanquished!
SAY NO TO RACISM!!
@catherine benning
Finally a answer that shows what UE should be all about. One of the first things we should do is set a standard in all member countries. That would create a sense of integration and equality.
Yes Nir, ANYONE not a British Citizen is a migrant and to hell with your unions citizenship and its so called fundamental right to free movement.
Welfare Tourism is a real problem,-YES .
I think first to the poor African Boat People, who want to live in Europe,-because some of them have seen in British or German TV ( possible in Tunisia )
how much their life differs with life of Europeans.
Without real profession they want to find work to earn own money here.
But first ITALY`s Lampedusa take all these refugees into a camp.
My QUESTION : EUROPE is consisting of many European Nations /Countries ,-
WHY CAN`T EVERY EU NATION announce a number /quote of refugees it can take for 2-3 years for professional training and meanwhile these EU Nations try to modernise the economical situation in some refugees` home countries.
And then after 3 years professional training or practice,-the former refugees return back into their countries as “Technicans” ,-or “Businessmen” a.s.o.
The problem´s solution can only be :
1.Modernise the Economy in their HomeCountry – while :
2.Refugees will get a professional training ( not longer than 3 years)
I know this would be a great challenge for our EU-member countries !
@ANTJE A. SEEGER
Bravo, well said!
EU welfare tourism exists and is the remit of the economic sponger – the monies wasted on subsidising some [relatively poor BUT NOT destitute] Southern EU nation citizens should be spent on more deserving causes from further afield.
We cannot ignore our fellow human beings who happen to be “non-European” – if we as Europeans both North and South can help “non-Europeans” regarding food, water and indeed opportunity then we should try [within reason] to do so.
@Paul X:
Yes, you are right, I’m not quite that dull I can’t fathom the requirement to raise standards throughout the Union. Economics would necessitate that the entire continent would have to be standardised. Which is what I was getting at. Duh!
They know how to do it. It’s been done before and from that experience was seen to have been done quickly. Thereby lifting Europe out of austerity and into growth.
Which is not what the wealthy top of the spectrum want. Do they? Here is one of the hated youtube analysis you despise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLIeW9agjoY
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Sou cidadão da Europa e vivo em Portugal eu não estou contra os emigrantes o grande problema que existe no meu pais e em muitos paises da UE é que na balança existe muita maldade ganância e a desumanidade é autêntica escravatura moderna Há que olhar para o futuro dos cidadões europeus há que enquilibrar a balança onde todos os emigrantes legais possam ter os mesmos direitos que os cidadões da Europa cada desenho no seu lugar dentro da balança por isso reformar a emigração e a UE terá que tomar medidas de travar essas discordâncias dos paises subdesenvolvidos para que respeitem os direitos humanos
I find it amusing when the richer countries complain about the “welfare immigrants”. They themselves are so keen in expanding the EU and make sure that all nations are under their influence and that of USA, as once one country joins the EU it joins NATO as well.. They want to take over the markets of those smaller nations and sell their stuff, take over the banks, and any resources that these countries have, yet they complain when they have to face the consequences of immigration!! And it is well known that the majority of the immigrants are contributing into the society, by doing the jobs that the natives do not want to do, working hard and pay taxes.. Now just because a minority of them do abuse the system, that does not mean that we have to stigmatize certain nations like Bulgaria and Romania, by not allowing them to join the Schengen, or other Eastern European nations and their citizens just because a small number of them commit crimes and abuse the system. Why don’t we just deal with those who do and treat them the same way that we do for the natives that do the same thing? In the worse case scenario if a person is found to be a nuisance then we must set up a system of harmonized our social welfare data bases and know who worked where, who is owned what and who owes what to which country.. In that way people who abuse the system can be treated the same way in their own country as in any country that they decide to move.. Just because of some crooks and their behavior, it is no reason to limit the freedom of movement among EU citizens that is one of our fundamental rights and one of the few that we get as citizens out of our country’s EU membership.. It is also outrageous that the rich nations do not state the amount of pensioners that move to poorer regions, buying land and claiming from their health system, even though they have never contributed to it. They have never worked in that country, yet when they are sick, they are hospitalized there.. Another reason why our social security systems must be harmonized and each country paying its citizens what its due to them, even if they move abroad.. Put the records right and stop scapegoating certain nations, to cover your own failures, dear leaders of the Western nations!!!
Dear sir, if this was facebook you would have my like :).
Many western nations have cultural problems with many east countries, but i know many people from these countries wich are hard working and contribute to the welfare system. We should not judge a country by what some people do, instead we should create “bullet proof” laws, so these people can’t have all these rights when all they do is criminal activities.
The differences in the levels of benefits/welfare/pensions/medical costs are so large, that if even only 20% of Bulgarians got welfare in Western Europe, under your system Bulgarias government would be bankrupted having to pay for it.
Under the current system, our system is bankrupted by these profiteers. So you merely move the problem rather than adressing it.
We have almost 9% unemployment here, the last thing we need is another quarter of a million scroungers who push our ‘poor’ out of their last jobs or come to collect welfare here that they never contributed to.
Christos I have to disagree with this
“And it is well known that the majority of the immigrants are contributing into the society, by doing the jobs that the natives do not want to do, working hard and pay taxes”
It is not that the “natives ” do not want to do the jobs its that the cheap labour pushes them out of the market. Migrants arrive here with no responsibilities at all, they generally come from poor backgrounds so are quite happy to live 10 to a flat and can survive easily on the wages they are paid often are able to send money back home (and therefore out of the UK economy). The “natives” have families and responsibilities in the UK and could not meet these responsibilities on the wage a migrant is prepared to accept. Pay tax? maybe some do but a lot are paid cash, they have no UK National Insurance number so the taxman does not know they exist , are you going to tell me these people are going to be honest and voluntarily fill out a tax return and pay what they owe? …no chance
I know exactly what your answer is going to be and that is to blame the people in the UK people who employ these migrants, but its a chicken and egg situation, one would not exist without the other, and the simple fact is this issue did not exist before the open migration policy of the EU and that is where the blame squarely sits
Paul I am an immigrant myself and I know a lot of immigrants, both EU and non-EU nationals and most of them are hard working decent people.. There are exeptions of course.. Why don’t we isolate these exemptions? I also know a lot of native Irish that prefer not to work because the can have a comfortable life from the Social Welfare services..But I will never become like you and put all Irish people in one bag and say that they are all lazy… The same happens in the UK.. Wasn’t a man over there with 15 kids and so many partners all living from social welfare? Who is paying for people like him and many others? The decent people of Britain plus the hard working immigrants…
It is nonsense to blame the immigration problem in the UK on the EU. As I have written ad ifinitum. The EU migration rate into the UK is only 20% of the total. 80% into the UK come from outside of Europe. Many from Commonwealth countries where our government advertises for them to join our work force. Why is this so difficult to perceive or believe?
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/
Some people are listening too hard to Nigel Farage, a con man and trickster on immigration, which policy he uses as a ploy to dupe the British into thinking he and his party will control it or end it if they are elected. They won’t as they are a right wing party of Capitalists who have a vested interest in low paid cheap labour at all costs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXX4LIzIa7c
And Asylum seekers who are not what they claim to be. There are thousands of these people from too many areas to list.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NDFwxnhmSg
And another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBVxNdND4T4
Tourist Social welfare is alive and well in Ireland. This was proven when during the Icelandic Volcano stopped flights in Europe the number of Europeans who failed to turn to to claim social welfare dramatically dropped only to increase when flying resumed.
I do not care how many of these organizations produce reports claiming that this immigration supposedly ‘benefits’ us. The only ones who seemingly do benefit are corporations looking for cheaper labor.
The facts on the ground, what I can see clearly especially in the south of my city, is that immigration doesn’t benefit anyone in the middle class or amongs the ‘poor’.
These reports are always coming from these ‘internationalists’ sponsored usually by their corporate funders (who have a vested interest in a specific result). They think that if one rich guys income goes up by 100, and 50 poor people see theirs reduced by 1, that the sum is +50 and the conclusion they come up with is ‘everybody benefits’.
@Christos Mouzeviris
Unfortunately, Christos despite evidence supporting the fact that Greeks work the most hours in Europe (http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS) the institutional corruption in Greece whether that be:
passing on pensions of Greek VIPs to their children,
not collecting fares from the transport system created for the last Greek Olympics,
paying [according to Transparency International 2010] an average c1355pa in bribes, olive tree fraud, tax receipt fraud etc etc
results in many Northern EU nations fearing involvement with Greece whether on the macro scale [the EU] or the micro scale ie individual hard-working and honest Greeks attempting to start a new life [welfare benefits and all] in a Northern EU country.
Unfortunately for Greeks and indeed other Club Med nations they are tarnished by their own country’s reputation regarding endemic corruption.
@Tarquin
I’ve heard of that report.
However it seems that this report confuses ‘hours present at work’ with ‘actual productivity’. The company I am active for has offices in countries like Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Spain and Italy. What I notice in these offices from the locals was rather different attitudes, for example concerning time away from the office during lunch breaks. Or when I read the story of the Italian auto maker who’se director claimed that they were building more cars in a Polish factory with less people than an Italian factory did with more people.
Being present at work is not the same thing as productivity.
I can be present at work for say 8 hours, but if I don’t do anything is it still counted as ‘8 hours productivity’ in this OECD report? I rather think it is. I will not claim this example is universally applicable because I’m sure its not, but I thought it was a curious phenomenon.
We want to leave.
Catherine you may have written “ad finitum” but you still miss the point, the main problem is immigration from the EU is completely uncontrolled. The whole population of another EU country could choose to move to the UK, the good and the dregs, and we could do nothing about it.
The majority of non EU immigration are students coming to study, they are usually intelligent, motivated, pay tuition fees, rent accomodation and generally contribute to our economy because they bring money into the country, not suck it out
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/data-and-resources/charts/non-eu-immigration-uk-reason-ips
I also see some contradiction in your post, you slag off Nigel Farage yet you link to the Migration watch web site, the information on that site is exactly what Farage bangs on about?…and (though I don’t see it happening) he is quite clear how he plans to resolve the issue, by withdrawal from the EU, the UK then go back to deciding who comes in and who doesn’t, it’s not exactly a rocket science policy and I don’t see where the con trick is?
@Paul X
Bravo, well said sir.
No, Paul x, it’s you who has missed the entire gist. First and foremost, the absolute nonsense you write about most of the immigrants to the UK from outside the EU are students, well educated, paying rent, etc., is total propaganda. And why are you spreading this nonsense?
Here are some stats and remember this excludes any dependents they have such as children, elderly parents, spouses, and others in need. It shows that less than half of those coming into the UK from outside the EU have any skills whatsoever.
http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/non-european-labour-migration-uk
Whereas, Europeans have skills and are willing to work long hours in agriculture, and skilled jobs the British are not able to do under our present ludicrous education system. The British simply are not prepared or skilled to do the work they do.
Your second fallacy is those from outside Europe are, in the main, educated. Oh, really. Could have fooled me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate
As the highest rate of people into the UK come from these countries listed collectively, I fail to see how you could confuse illiteracy with educated students. Which most, who make it through under the student scheme, do so on the fiddle, one way and another.
http://www.ixpvisas.com/up-to-63-000-entered-uk-with-fraud-visas-in-20113556
And lastly, Farage will of course use Migrationwatch as a source of open information. He simply omits the stats that do not reflect EU numbers. His intention is to cloud the issue as he doesn’t want to address the Commonwealth and elsewhere that come in by the millions from far and wide. Ask him directly what his party will do about immigrants from outside Europe, that 80% majority I keep citing. See what you get as a reply. And hold onto your hat as you do so..
And finally, this paper covers his farce completely by explaing that Norway is not in the EU and it’s immigration levels from outside it are significant. I therefore ask again, what is Farage’s policy on the 80% of immigration into the UK that comes from outside of Europe. How does he intend to stop that?
Although after writing my thoughts on Farage, I do want to emphasize that I too think immigration into Europe as a whole, from outside it’s borders, is absurdly high. And all the open door policies should be stopped at once. But, the freedom of movement of Europeans within its borders is a wonderful opportunity for all its citizens.
http://reuniting-europe.blogactiv.eu/2013/02/07/open-letter-to-nigel-farage-by-the-members-of-the-bulgarian-community-in-the-uk/#.UpNwZCfSxIs
For once Tarquin I will agree with you partially.. But as yourself saw and posted the statistics, it is the Greek rich elite that does all the corruption, while the average Greek citizens pays the price.. That is not fair.. Especially when it is also European rich elites that benefit from Greece’s lack of control of its taxation system, (a Greek version of tax haven, but only for the rich businessmen) when the German companies who built the new Athens’ airport and that they run, they have never ever paid taxes to the state..
In other words, the Greek rich ship owners, industrialists and large farm owners are to blame, together with the rich industrial elites of Europe for Greece’s woes..
The Luxembourgian PM Mr. Jean Claude Juncker announced at the beginning of the crisis that Europe knew what was going on in Greece, but he could not do anything about it..If Europe had exposed half of the scandals that was taking place behind the Greek public’s back, then perhaps things would not have gone out of control..
But you see it is also Europe that was behind of many of those scandals, like the Siemens scandal. The German company bribed with a large lump-sum of cash in order to get access in Greece’s public infrastructure and also never paid a cent of taxes.. Why would Europe expose the Greek elites mishandling? They were all into it and all profiteering out of the ignorance of the Greek people..
You see every country has its own scroungers, depending its political system.. Some countries have monarchies and they have to support whole families of privileged nobles, while others like Greece have a “democracy” (only by name says me) and they are have to put up with their oligarchs…
So stop blaming ordinary people and citizens, and raise your voice to blame the rich European elites, either they are Greek, German, British or else..
@Christos Mouzeviris
Sorry old chap but I will continue to blame that significant population of Greeks or other Club Med nations that foster endemic corruption, harm democracy and destroy Greece’s [or Southern EU nation] reputation.
The link below highlights the pervasiveness of Greek corruption and although the bulk of Greeks are hard-working and honest, Northern EU citizens are fearful that such an endemic mindset could rear its head re ‘welfare tourism’.
http://www.bild.de/news/bild-english/news/average-greek-pays-1355-euros-in-bribes-a-year-11670598.bild.html
That is nonsense..The Bild has an agenda and is trying to slander Greek people, to justify its government’s attitude towards the peripheral nations.. Perhaps you should start blaming the Northern European mindset, that believes all the nonsense that they read in their press, without using their minds to judge circumstances.. You are being brainwashed!!
Not just The Bild it would seem…?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2011/oct/20/europe-breadline-corrution-pervades-corner
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/8714615/Greece-Its-the-corruption-stupid.html
And maybe it’s the Greek Media you should not be trusting……
http://www.opendemocracy.net/kostas-vaxevanis/corruption-fear-and-silence-state-of-greek-media-today
Paul the majority of Western media are owned by 6 major media corporations.. They all have an agenda, the same agenda.. No one says that there is not corruption in Greece, but no one says who is responsible for it, who benefits from it, and who inevitably pays the price.. They also avoid to mention corruption in the most rich nations across the world, like USA itself which is far more corrupt than they want us to believe.. Or in fact the UK… Just because corruption there is not limited to petty bribes that uneducated farmers give in hope of getting a favor for their child, the only hope they have because the state does not provide otherwise, but also extends to large media, government, industrial, banking corporations that manipulate public opinion and funds. In America, UK and most of the rich “less corrupt” nations…Which one is worse? Think about it..
Or perhaps we should all become like the all so perfect Britain, that tax evasion in its overseas territories is rife!! By British crooks and international ones alike!! All because your system allows tax evasion.. Yet the British are so better than anyone else in the world!! Wake up and smell the coffee will ya? People can not change their country’s system alone, that is designed to be part of a wider, global one. How can a Greek pensioner change his country’s system, since it is the government that encourages and supports such system to exist, because it suits them and the global players? No more than a British pensioner can change the tax evasion that is rife in the British isles and its overseas territories..Just a thought!!
http://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/2013/oct/31/tax-evasion-phantom-companies
@Christos Mouzeviris
I welcome Greeks to the UK providing they are well-educated [which they usually are, often better than the typical Brit] and I don’t mind same benefiting from UK benefits so long as they are NOT the type that blames everyone else and his dog about Greece’s self-inflicted problems like YOU.
Clearly in your teflon-coated eyes the OECD, Transparency International, Bild, EU, ECB, The Guardian, S&Ps, Le Monde, NYT… are ALL conspiring to present Greece in a negative-light.
Your repeated refusal to accept that the problems of Greece are due in some part to the culture of Greece is one of the reasons why the EU could fail as the Northern EU is getting fed up of paying charity to Greece whether via SOLICHARITY or WELFARE TOURISM.
How could a nation with such a great history – the very cradle of Western civilization sink to such a cultural anti-democratic dishonest low?
In the same way that a once great nation like Britain that used to be so out-going and pioneering, has ended up being a bigoted narrow minded nation, with prominent examples the UKIP and the likes of you..
You have no clue what is going on in the world and it would be very helpful if you were not allowed to promote your biased, bigoted and racist views in this forum..
The media are biased and serve the interests of the rich capitalist elites, who want to promote a neo-liberal agenda everywhere.. Nations that do not comply are being slandered..
And not just that, but the media often portray certain nations or regions in a certain way, in order to create an inaccurate, stereotypical image of them to the western audiences.
Just like Africa. Why do we never read articles about affluent African people or families, but we are bombarded with images of poor Africans starving? It is an agenda dear, to support the continuous need for charity, that in the hands of some NGOs charities it has become simply business that want to perpetuate and also explain to us the westerners, why Africa “needs” us and our so charitable intervention.. For ever!
I study those things in my journalism studies.. You perhaps are to busy playing video games to understand such agendas..
Regards.
@Christos Mouzeviris
You seem unable to discern between cultural criticism [eg Greece suffers from endemic corruption, according to numerous bodies including TI and the OECD] and something rather more unpleasant.
Indeed, your lack of discernment has meant that you have RACIALLY insulted me personally more than once and too Africans as a whole numerous times.
However, even given your RACIST RANTINGS I am still prepared for my country the UK to extend charity to the [recently downrated] developing country called Greece but under strict counter-corruption T&Cs – one of which involves NO ‘welfare tourism’.
“Britain that used to be so out-going and pioneering, has ended up being a bigoted narrow minded nation”
And you want the reason why?…..because we have been too generous with what we give out and what we let in, we have been one of the most liberal countries in the world and we are now paying the price of being unable to afford to look after our own. To be honest I would even go as far as say the UK is now the mug of the developed world, what other country increases its overseas aid budget when it has homeless, starving and cold people in their own country? You call it narrow minded and bigoted, most here would say its called time to started thinking of ourselves for once
I would quite happily remove all trace of the “Great” from Britain and become a more humble country that actually cares for it’s citizens instead of trying to be something big on the world stage
That is not in the agenda of your elites who still are in post colonial mode… Sadly.. The aid is not always to “help” countries, rather to tie them and bring them under the influence not just that of Britain, but the West in general.. In other words, your money, our money goes to make sure that Western civilization, culture , or rather why not say the economic interests of the Western economic and industrial elites, are spread onto poorer nations, bringing them always under our influence.. Rich countries use their most powerful weapon..Their money.. To extend and expand their economic dominance and influence throughout the world.. It is an unequal world and sadly, attitudes like yours and Tarquins, that I do not say are mean spirited, you are trying to do what you think is best for your country and community, works wonders for these Western elites, who have half their work done, but having you believing that aid or they money they waste is to “help” those nations in “need”… We have made Africa “hooked” on Western aid and that suits them because they can manipulate us and them, into believing that such thing is necessary.. The same way that the Germans now believe that throwing money to Greece, money that does not go to help the country rather pour more debt on to it, is necessary because we, just like Africa are unable to govern ourselves, there is corruption and blah blah blah, and so here comes a German/European lump sum, which does not go to help the Greek economy, rather it returns to the German bond holders in the Greek and European banking system.. They are all interconnected you know..
I very much agree.
@Christos Mouzeviris
Welfare tourism = supplementing one community with the hard-earned monies of another community = UNFAIR.
FTR:
The German[master]-French[slave] axis controls the EU, MOST UK citizens do not want to be in the EU because it is corrupt and refuses [like some Southern EU nations] to reform.
The UK will always be in ‘postcolonial mode’ – isn’t that a good thing?
I look at the Southern EU nations hooked on aid (ie solicharity) just like some African or Asian nations and I see my hard-earned monies WASTED due to corruption, I do NOT want to extend such charity to ‘welfare tourism’ too.
Then if you want to do something about it, get out in the streets and protest.. Why blame others for something that your government is to blame for?You seem to claim that I am the one who blame others for the shortfalls of my country but you are not that different.. Blame the Club Med, the Eastern Europeans, anything else but your country’s policies.
It is in your government agenda to make Britain open society and multicultural and EU member and so on.. And guess what? Perhaps you also want to stop supporting the “Washington Consensus” where US interests and financial, political and cultural dominance is assured over the rest of us, and your government as good US sidekicks support fully this inequality in our world, where through the IMF, World Bank, NATO, UN and other organizations they are expanding their influence in their world.. Is it any wonder why nations closer to them are doing great, while others are always being robbed off their resources?
Imagine if the Moldovans were as rich as the Swedes that have everything provided by their state, would they be such corrupt country? No..That does not mean they are uncivilized, it simply means that because of their recent history they had certain elites established in their country that ensure that the balance of power in kept in their country, and is usually influenced by foreign powers such as Russia. Poverty establishes corruption, as people do anything they can to make a living. A resident of a rich and affluent nation that has his government providing everything for him, does not need to bribe .
I unlike you, am welcoming assistance towards these nations. If for example lets say Romania or Estonia, get the same salaries, pensions and living standards as the rest of Europe then a) they won’t have to migrate to the UK to find those standards, b) they will have more money to spend and visit the UK, perhaps invest in it enhancing the UK’s economy c) a stable neighborhood means little bother and less instability for all Europe..
But they can not get the same salaries and living standards as the UK unless the UK a) makes sure that they get the stability they need to prosper, b) allows them to do so, by changing the whole economic and political balance of power in Europe and the world. As long as we allow a few rich elites from a few rich countries setting the standards according their interests, some countries will never get a chance to prosperity, because they are being exploited by the big powers, either East or West..
hope that helps..
“Then if you want to do something about it, get out in the streets and protest.. Why blame others for something that your government is to blame for?”
Actually Christos, our government is not to blame. David Cameron is promising legislation to curb welfare migrants but it the EU commission who is taking action to try and stop him claiming it is illegal?
So the UK government is wanting to take action that the majority of UK people who democratically elected them agree with, yet a bunch of unelected nobodies are trying to stop it?
Is it really any wonder why there is so much animosity towards the EU in the UK?
Because you can not stop the free movement of people, that is a fundamental right of every EU citizen.. Britain signed for it as well, as it is one of the first members to join.. About 2.2 million British expats live in other EU countries.. Should we return some of those two back to Britain? All these pensioners that have never paid into the welfare system or any taxes all these years, yet they are being hospitalized in our hospitals? Once in a club, you make some compromises… That is how it works..
What you are conveniently omitting is the people in the UK are fed a daily diatribe, by right wing propagandists, about how the ‘EU’ is the reason for Britain’s utter downfall on every level. Not simply immigration. Which we all know has little to do with Europe and whole lot to do with keeping wages at a minimum and exploiting the population by creating a slave induced mentality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGf3S9h1Fmk
And Andrew Neather
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os4sOrpgdbo
And France. It too seems to have had a policy of deliberate mass immigration to keep it’s costs to business down. Now why would any government want to betray its citizens that way? Make it impossible for them to survive by throwing them into a farce of unemployment and cultural change to the point where their country is impoverished by incomers ready to work for peanuts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOkaN0x0zNc
Christos, Yes and even the idiots who signed up to the free movement agree it was a mistake so why should us and future generations be left to pick up the tab and continue to pay for their stupidity?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10445585/Labour-made-a-spectacular-mistake-on-immigration-admits-Jack-Straw.html
Now tell me how many British ex pats move to another EU country with the express intent of sponging off the tax payers of that country?..the bone idle in the UK know they cannot do any better anywhere else so they stay firmly rooted here
And I would say every ex pat pensioner who retires to another countries will be pretty much self sufficient with plenty of disposable income to spend in the local economy, you won’t find many of them sleeping 10 to a bedsit and living off benefits
Britain does not have the rates of poverty or low incomes that other EU member states have..Can’t you see? The only way that the UK can curb immigration is to actually, not by itself of course but with all other Western Northern European states, allow the new states to prosper and become as rich, or close enough as they are… Not imposing austerity, like they have for many years, on other states, as a precondition to enter the EU and the euro.. Such policies may work as in GDP growth and other economic nonsense, but it results in massive cuts for jobs and salaries that push people out of their countries and into yours… The solutions? Investment in this countries and raise their living standards… End of!!
@Christos Mouzeviris
The rate of immigration from the continent to the UK is too high, it is starting to destabilise my country, it should be controlled (NOT stopped) before there is blood on the UK streets!
As regards your fundamental right to travel throughout the EU – I trump that with my fundamental “right to life”!.
Well-meaning but unconstrained, inflexible laws as is evident in too much EU legislation are causing previously stable countries like the UK and Sweden to destabilise – you don’t live in the UK so your knowledge of ‘what’s going down’ is minimal.
My white friends, my brown friends, my Asian friends, my black friends etc all mention that the previously tolerant UK is starting to ‘creak at the hinges’ due to too much immigration inducing resentment from people of all persuasions: Celts, Anglo-Saxons, blacks, Turks, Poles, Romanians [exemplars of the latter 3 were broadcast on BBC WS today] are stating that there is too much EU immigration into the UK and it needs to be controlled.
Furthermore, as a non-white UK citizen I feel less safe now in the current climate than I ever did during the 1970s when the NF used to advertise on TV and skinheads plied their trade with gay abandon.
If stopping ‘welfare tourism’ helps reduce immigration into the UK – I wholeheartedly approve – the price the UK is paying to be in a club where it is detested, that picks its pockets to the tune of hecto-billions and then through ill-conceived legislation destabilises the UK is way, way, way too much a price to pay!
I wonder do all your friends read the Daily Mail or the Sun? Anyway.. The best of luck with your cause!
@Christos Mouzeviris
Despite your off-topic random question,I have decided to humour you.
FYI: Most of my friends read the Daily Mail AND the Guardian AND the Times AND the Huffington Post to name but a few – reflective of the diversity of people, colour,creed,opinion and religion endemic within the UK.
FYI I can’t be bothered to ask you what papers you or your friends read as Golden Dawn and its diabolical propaganda are of absolutely no interest to me whatsoever or indeed any of my diverse multicultural and multi-ethnic friends.
@Catherine Benning
Immigration to the UK should NOT just be controlled just for non-whites as is the case now BUT it should be controlled for EU immigrants to the UK too – in the interests of EQUALITY and FAIRNESS at the very least!
Welfare tourism must be capped AND applied equally to people of all COLOURs and persuasions – this trumps EU legislation’s ‘right to travel freely’ law – END OF!!
@TF:
I have no time to enter into debate with people like you who have a somewhat psychotic chip on the shoulder about anglo saxons. I remember the actress Emma Thompson having the audacity to tell the world Britain had areas in the rural countryside that were ‘ludicrously white.’ A country that has been changed so dramatically only a tolerant people and society would have embraced it the way we have without resorting to riots and looting as others have done. The absolute offense of her words were tolerated and applauded by people like you and I want nothing to do with such PC indoctrinated insults.
Had anyone one had the gall to say Brixton, Birmingham or Bradford had areas that are ‘ludicrously’ black they would have faced trumped up charges for having the audacity to voice a noticeable change in society and been referred to as ‘racist.’ Would you go to Africa and dare to tell them parts of their country were showing a mass black population that was unacceptable in this modern world. No you would not. Yet you feel that along with the Greeks, the Eastern Europeans the Spanish and mediterranean areas of Europe are lazy, or, profligate loafers and too culturally unacceptable to you. And they should be banned from entering the UK.Yet you cannot see that for what it is. You centre on Africa and Africans way beyond what would be considered normal in open debate.
You openly and brazenly believe and spout that outside Europe there are no white people. Such as Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans, Chinese, Indonesian, Japanese and so on. You classify them all as black or non whites. you insult the world with your racist views whilst you try to lob this inner complaint at others.
You will not insult me or the world of races, white or any other, more with my adding to your unstable posts. You need to join an anger control class to help you avoid such extreme abuse toward others. Especially women. I don’t notice you directing your abuse toward men on here. Do you really believe you are going to convince me to hate white people or the others you wish to insult the way you do and seeing that as being the way forward? What you are looking for is confirmation that indigenous Europeans should be eliminated as their very existence appears to reduce you in some way.
Please do not address me any further. I shall not respond to your insults.
@Catherine Benning
Unlike you I don’t want to pay any monies to welfare tourists from the continent or indeed further afield if I don’t have to BUT if I have to I would much rather the UK was able to choose its immigrants from a talent pool MUCH bigger than what the EU offers.
Europe contains mostly white people – the exact percentage of which is probably above 95% but no-one truly knows as silly countries like France do not record race in their census.
Depending on sources 9%-11% of people worldwide are white and the bulk live in Europe, the rest of the world must therefore be of a predominantly non-white persuasion. Ergo if you refer to the EU as ‘white’ I can refer to the RoW as ‘non-white’.
It follows that I can quite rightly describe the EU’s immigration policies as RACIST – for said policies favour predominantly ‘white’ continentalists over the primarily ‘non-white’ RoW.
Whilst some Southern EU nations or some Eastern EU nations take charity from Northern EU nations [including welfare tourism albeit thats a small slice of the ‘charity’ cake] I can legitimately call same ‘lazy’ and ‘spongers’ – the fact that I dislike such parasitical behaviour does not mean I racially hate them – I just dislike some of their cultural practices.
Your ‘rivers of blood’ speeches on DE have been noted and I will be endeavouring to contact SEARCHLIGHT to advise them of your RACIST RANTS and RACIST AGENDA.
FTR, I don’t care what gender/orientation/species you are, however I do care that you make RACIST comments [like Christos] – comments I will fight tooth and nail against!!
We all know what happened when people of your ilk rose to power in Germany in the 1930s – NEVER AGAIN, NEVER AGAIN!
People WITHIN THE EU are “citizens” not “tourists” or “immigrants”. If they want to go to a country then they can go to that EU country and no amount of right-wing lunacy can and should stop them.
If BRITAIN ( because this is where the stupidity stems from as always ) doesn’t want “evil hordes” of people coming there, then they should get the hell out of the EU and let us be.
They have done NOTHING but kept the EU back every step of the way.
American trojan horse INDEED.
Oh dear Limbidis, you really have swallowed the book of EU propaganda hook line and sinker haven’t you?
If “citizens” want to come to the UK then that’s fine as long as they bring their own money and don’t expect me to pay for them. The UK has one of the most generous benefits systems in the EU, give me one good reason why people who have contributed nothing to it should be able to come here and benefit from it? Our system was designed as a safety net for people like me who have paid tax and national insurance all our lives, not a ticket for an all inclusive UK holiday for any “citizen” who fancies a change of scenery
….and It may have escaped your notice but the UK is an island with finite space, just how crowded do you think we should get before people like you would allow us stop “citizens” moving here?
The one bit of your post I agree with is we should get the hell out, It’s time our government had the b@lls to listen to the people who elect them instead of continuing to waste UK taxpayers money on a bunch of ungrateful foreigners
Oh, Dear Paul X:
What will you do about all those Brits living in Europe. Cut their heads off after all the taxes they paid to the UK government. Deary, deary me.
http://jondanzig.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/what-nigel-farage-told-british-expats.html
And another
http://www.france24.com/en/20111210-expat-brits-france-react-david-cameron-eu-no-eurozone-nicolas-sarkozy
http://jondanzig.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/what-nigel-farage-told-british-expats.html
And, Paul X, one other point about Europe and the influx of immigrants from it to the UK.
As I wrote before, only 20% of immigrants into the UK originate and move from inside of Europe to our wonderful caring country. as they look for work and solace. And as a result you don’t want to be part of the EU. Yet, the 80% of immigrants that come into the UK from outside of Europe doesn’t appear to get a mention from you. Now why is that, if immigration and the cost of it gets your goat?
Does it not occur to you that Europe has to put up with the possibility of our open door policy, to all and sundry, from outside Europe imposes on them the very real fact that they will have to accommodate that influx should any choose to leave the UK and inhabit other parts of the EU at a cost to them?
As our UK annual influx of immigrants is said to be rising. Here is an article suggesting we attract hundreds of thousands every year to substantiate my belief.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2274754/600-000-migrants-come-year–twice-France.html
Why do you think that is? Why would all these people decide that, out of the whole of Europe, settling in the UK is the way to go? Mmm? The Human Rights Act covers all of the European Sates so they have just as much right to remain there as they do to settle in the UK. What can be the draw to Britain that you blame Europe for? And, as a result of it, you have decided that all these people fleeing the world to come to Britain, means, we must pull out of Europe in order to stop it as the cost to us is too high.
Again, I ask, why do you think so many of the prospective immigrants by pass all the European States and make their way to the UK? It cannot be because our standard of living is higher than in other European States, because, it’s much lower than in many others on that continent. As is their health care prospects. The chances of living after contracting cancer in the UK is well below many elsewhere in the EU.
What is it that attracts them so much to our shores? Have you given it any thought at all? And have you given any thought to why you blame Europe and it’s policies for that fact? When clearly these people make a beeline for the UK for some other reason than living standard or health care reasons. What then is so different about the UK that lures them the way it does? Surely, if Europe was the cause they would not need to line up in France waiting to sneak into our borders, would they? There must be something other than the Human Rights convention that makes them want our island. What could it be? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
The reason Catherine, my dear, that I only critisise immigration from the EU on this forum is because it is called “Debating Europe”
Immigration from outside the EU does “get my goat” but it is an issue that needs to be addressed by our own government and not really relevent to this forum
@Catherine Benning
Oh, dear your France24 article seems to support Paul X’s premise.
@Paul X:
This reply is a cop out from a person who appears duplicitous. Welfare tourism, and immigration are one and the same mix. Cannot be otherwise. And whether it emanates from within the European boundaries or from outside it is all a matter for debate. Especially when your ilk claim Europe is its ’cause’ and that so many of the people who come into the UK for our benefits are European. Which clearly the majority, 80%, are from outside this continent not from within it at all. So, by clinging to your view you deny reality and when you deny realty you refuse to face the problem, which in turn, cannot be addressed or righted as a result.
You cannot answer because you’re afraid to speak your mind. It’s the elephant in the room syndrome. Afraid, because of the politically correct stultifying aggression you witness on a daily basis. Which has to be outed. Akin to the hovering spectre we see all around. Who likewise fears truth.
Why is it you feel you can castigate Europeans looking for a leg up and welfare for their aims in Britain but not Canadians, Australians, New Zealander’s, Japanese, Chinese, Iraqi’s or any of the multitude that clog our system to the point of choking it of, but not addressing the main cause? Doesn’t that strike you as odd?
With people this afraid to face their nemeses, Britain deserves what it has become. A sink estate. And your friend Farage will not change it one iota. Doesn’t want to because slavery and exploitation of people is a big money spinner for those at the top who are supported by nincompoops on the bottom who believe they’re immune to the obvious outcome.
Catherine you are clearly just arguing for the sake of it now, the difference between immigrants from the EU and outside the EU is simple for anyone to understand
There is no restriction on anyone from within the EU coming to the UK is that not a fact?
Once here they are easily able to start benefitting from our welfare system… in fact the EU has spent a wad of taxpayers cash on publishing an information booklet which explains how immigrants can get the most out of a countries benefit system and even how to appeal if you are refused..spending my taxes on telling people how they can claim even more of my taxes…..that is kind of them isn’t it?
Non EU Immigrants have to go through a lot of hoops to stay here and cannot just turn up and expect to be fed and housed. For example, a collegue who works next to me is from Goa. He is a young, ambitious and highly intelligent (masters degree) and has spent the last year and a half filling out forms, doing tests, attending interviews etc and he has only just had his entitlement to residency confirmed. He now has to go through the whole process again for his wife
Now compare his case with a family of Bulgarian layabouts who openly admit they are coming to sponge off my taxes and even you should be able to see where I’m coming from?
http://immigrationmatters.co.uk/bulgarian-family-of-nine-target-uk-and-get-council-house-and-benefits-in-3-weeks.html
@Paul X:
I don’t need to compare one person of 80% who comes into the UK as an immigrants against those who move from one part of Europe to another.
You say the person you work with has had to apply to reside and is now applying for his wife on top of it. Then who else? His mother, father, brothers, sisters cousins, et al, followed by the wife’s extended bunch. Why was he allowed to settle in the UK in the first place? With the chant you make being so loud against immigration as a whole and especially toward those who are our fellow Europeans? They who are culturally connected to us and able to integrate easier and more pleasurably. So, his degree and whatever else he may have obtained in some far off land, in a different language and culture, with different expectations to our own Western example, as well as the ability to buy the documentation being so much easier where he originates from, is of no value to the UK.
Immigrant’s with degrees are a joke. Have you been to a UK hospital lately and seen how well foreign degrees go down there? The criminality involved and the fact that English is not natural to them, results in an inability to understand or communicate on an adult level. Add to that the government direction to employ medics from outside Europe as first choice, when for every medical doctor opening, 200 UK doctors apply and are turned down for someone with ‘foreign’ levels of expectation are first choice. Thereby forcing UK degree holders into unemployment in there own country. Why is this person not applying for work in his own place of origin as they are so desperately in need of individuals with degrees there?
That aside, most who come in from Europe do so with good tradesmen working ability, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, agricultural workers, all the jobs that cannot be filled here because for years there has been no training or apprenticeship openings, therefore they are filling a necessary hole.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10480785/Most-immigrants-to-the-UK-now-come-from-China-figures-show.html
And now look at this link above, the highest number of immigrants into the UK, the 80% and rising, come from China, then India, followed by the USA and Australia. These people are the first who must be prevented as they take employment at very reduced rates. For them the existing level of pay doesn’t exist. And even with their so called degrees they end up in restaurant positions and taxi driving. All jobs our own can do for a full and proper wage without degrees or qualifications, keeping them off the benefits you worry about so much.
So, I see your fellow worker as no more necessary than a person from Europe and far less likely to integrate with the host culture. Most British people want to remain European, regardless of what you hear from the media and Farage, but their voice, like mine, is stifled by name calling and any other mouth shutter the PC brigade can muster. I want to remain in Europe as part of it. And if you want to turn this to a personal preference, I also want to be able to enjoy the freedom of movement within that zone, not with China, India, South America, Africa, United States, or any other area that isn’t governed under the Human Rights Act and doesn’t abide by Western expectations which includes the USA.
As your link shows the majority of non EU immigrants to this country are students, how many of them are over here living on benefits? considering the cost of a university education I would suggest none of them would be here if they couldn’t afford to support themselves, and how many actually stay here once they finish their studies?
For your information my colleague studied in the UK and paid quite a sum in tuition fees, board and lodgings. He now works here and pays full tax and national insurance. He has had to go to great lengths to be able to stay in the UK and has been financially contributing to our economy all the time. Personally I have much more in common with him and his work ethic than I do with those “Fellow Europeans” who come here with no other intention then to live off my taxes
I have total disdain for anyone who comes to this country with the intention of sponging off my taxes, why should I feel any more solidarity with a tax thief just because he’s from a EU country?
So, Paul X, what you are saying is, the rich maharaja’s son is a welcome student because he is above all others as his gravy train papa is funding his way to the UK. No doubt in order to make sure of his own right to reside when the time comes. But, those who come to make a living from the EU, are simply plebs not worth the time of day.. Now where have we heard that before? And that creep will see his comeuppance as well once the court shows what a lying lout he is.
Now, welfare benefits and which immigrants are on them. You are living in a dream world. This latest paper on just this matter tells you the EU immigrants are the ones we should be open to and those from outside are not. As they are the benefit dwellers. Not to mention only 20% of immigration comes from within that area. So far less to cope with and far less likely to be lovers of sexual inequality, female genital mutilation and the rest of the medieval social imports we have to endure from outside it.
http://rt.com/news/immigrants-uk-benefit-study-250/
And I doubt your colleague had no leg up from the state at all. Because most all those who come in from outside the EU claim some state financial support or other to keep them going.
All immigration from outside Europe should be cut immediately to make way for British and European workers to benefit from any upturn in the economy. On top of that, all jobs should first be filled by citizens of the UK. The rest should wait in line as the last to qualify. Then we will see change.
Additionally, all immigrants from outside Europe should not be entitled to any benefits for at least ten years. They should also be required to have health insurance that they pay for out of their own pocket for an equal amount of time. One of the reason they wait in France to enter the UK is because here it is all free. Not so in the rest of the EU states.
Which knocks your utter irrational notion regarding the EU off its seat is because you are able to hire cheaper labour from outside than from inside the EU. Which is why your colleague is seen as such an asset. Low maintenance. Not expecting a living wage or no promotional aspirations. In fact cheaper all round and unable to understand the need for the Human Rights Act.
http://fullfact.org/articles/immigration_bill_migrants_benefits-29233
Now the cost of health care is recipricated from those coming from within the EU. Not so for thsoe from outside it. And the diseaded people coming from outisde the EU is far higher than from within, Aids is 56% of the population in African countries, South Africa being one of them. Other illnesses from immigrants coming from Asia relating to inbreeding and various blood disorders are also far higher than from inside Europe. Although TB is one of the big imports from the Eastern block. Then crime. Violent crime, rape murder is extremely high from immigrants outside of the EU.
The cost of those immigrants entering the UK from outside of Europe is staggering in comparison to those within., So, lets stop with the lies and fancy footwork. Europe is an asset to us. The others are highly debatable.
Here is a Mirror article that nobody wants to address. And whatever derogatory remark you want to make about the Mirror, which I don’t read incidentally, they are feted as the most truthful of all UK newspapers.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/every-four-non-eu-immigrants-puts-171754
Catherine, you seem intent on making this a EU immigrant vs Non EU immigrant debate?
My position is simple, I detest any immigrant (EU or Non EU) that comes to this country with no intention of finding work and planning to live off the back of my hard earned taxes…..the main concern and reason this topic is on this forum is that immigrants from EU countries can just hop on a ferry and do exactly that
And I’m afraid you are 100% wrong with your cheap labour comment, yes the farms, bars, hotels and restaurants around here are full of cheap foreign labour, but it is all from Eastern Europe. I can’t comment on where you live but the majority of Asian immigrants around here work in their own businesses and to be honest most work damn hard at it
@Paul X:
You are damn right I am. Because the problem with immigration, which is being lied about right, left and centre in the UK, is the card those akin to Farage and his right wing Tory friends, are using to pull us out of Europe. Which is why they use every piece of propaganda against European migrants and stay away from the flock outside of it. They don’t want thoe who know their rights. And that alone is changing our UK status from civilised connection to complete enslavement.
The ordinary people of the UK will simply become fodder to world Capitalism that is presently moving toward further impoverishment of the European people. And toward us in the UK no longer having the buffer of Europe and its leverage to maintain social justice which without it will leave us all open to absolute exploitation.
And, I, having lived and seen what the next moves are, via the Global corporations, I shall fight it with every word I can possibly muster. For it is the last bastion between Europe and the lifestyle of the third world.
Watch this video and know John Pilcher, journalist, has been fighting this for years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKRwGIfRmaQ
Catherine, who’s lying and what is the lie?
It is an undeniable fact that uncontrolled immigration is causing problems in certain parts of the UK – I agree the the Right exaggerates the issue for propaganda but to me this is a preferred option to those who bury their heads in the sand and pretend there is no problem
It is a 99% certainty that Farage will never be PM and UKIP will never be in government to pull us out of the EU. But at least with UKIP people have a way of voicing this dissatisfaction with the EU something we have not had the chance to do since the 1970’s and this time the treasonist Heath is out of the way. If the UK pulls out of Europe it will be by a democratic referendum not because of UKIP
And to be honest you’ve lost me with the rest of your post, I do not see the how uncontrolled immigration is preventing the people of the UK becoming “fodder for world capitalism” whatever that is?
@Paul X
Don’t bother arguing with Catherine Benning as she is a stranger to the truth.
Besides she cites YOUTUBE as if it was 100% bona-fide, hates Christianity and has repeatedly made RACIST comments.
As for UKIP I too would vote for same as UK democracy has been compromised.
The EU project may all be well and good BUT if it has to lie, obfuscate and obnubilate at all costs in order to achieve its aims then it has proven itself to be a very serious threat to the UK, the EU member states and indeed the RoW.
based upon what I have seen and heard it is not just people coming from the EU who abuse the welfare system of the UK. but from other countries from out side the EU. when welfare was establish in the UK it was meant for the people of the UK only. back then then the EU was only a dream of a few.
I tend to disagree! Net gains are far greater, European migrants pay in 39% more into the British economy than is taken out!
There is also another component, immigration brings a social, and cultural gain to the the host countries, for example the sharing of skills, labour and ideas!
My background is in the NHS and Social Services, without immigration these services would collapse!
Last year in Britain almost as many people left for a life in other countries as arrived!
I support The Freedom of Movement on Political, social and Cultural grounds!
It is a very detectable, neuropsychological phenomenon and it is so powerful, because it combines two very strong impulses in people: one, the fear of the ?alien? and two, the fear of the limits of resources. Statistically, such thing as welfare ?tourism? has no feasible effect on budgets, every projection will tell you that. So in fact, it?s neither myth nor reality, because it is always a fear of a potential future. it?s just people being simple and relying on impulse in their attempt to understand the world.
Of course many people do not read, do not know anything about the social protection systems in their own countries, cannot read and interpret figures and as a result they juts stick to wrong, unproved and quite often slightly xenophobic ideas (well, calling them “ideas” is a bit too much). I wonder how many have read the report mentioned in the article (I did).
Of course many people do not read, do not know anything about the social protection systems in their own countries, cannot read and interpret figures and as a result they juts stick to wrong, unproved and quite often slightly xenophobic ideas (well, calling them “ideas” is a bit too much). I wonder how many have read the report mentioned in the article (I did).
The sooner we have proper border controls for ALL the better.
The sooner we have proper border controls for ALL the better.
it is when you allow it to become.. if you have a clear immigration policy, plus integration policy then you limit the complications.. the problem is that our governments see it as an ideology, as a practice that makes your country belong to a special group of “open minded” “tolerant” nations and they allow more immigrants that a country can receive.. the businesses in this country constantly demand for more immigrants to exploit by giving them lower wages and few social welfare rights.. when the governments change, they do not want to deal with the problems that these practices have created and they just want to leave the solution to the next government.. which of course never happens.. so we are ending up having immigrants living on social welfare, because of lack of integration, racism and discrimination.. when the economy goes bad, nobody needs them anymore.. so we decide to put whole families on the dole instead of either giving them jobs or encourage them to move around EU and find jobs in other EU countries.. Recycle them..They have acquired skills in one EU country, if this country do not need them anymore then either they have to go back to their own, or help them migrate to another EU nation that needs them..That requires a common EU immigration policy something that our leaders are failing to do and agree on..It would be cheaper that keep paying these people to stay idle.. Immigrant workers are hard working folk, they want to work and contribute..At least the vast majority of them.. But we just do not let them once we do not need their cheap labour anymore.. Less immigration, fairer and better or full integration please….
it is when you allow it to become.. if you have a clear immigration policy, plus integration policy then you limit the complications.. the problem is that our governments see it as an ideology, as a practice that makes your country belong to a special group of “open minded” “tolerant” nations and they allow more immigrants that a country can receive.. the businesses in this country constantly demand for more immigrants to exploit by giving them lower wages and few social welfare rights.. when the governments change, they do not want to deal with the problems that these practices have created and they just want to leave the solution to the next government.. which of course never happens.. so we are ending up having immigrants living on social welfare, because of lack of integration, racism and discrimination.. when the economy goes bad, nobody needs them anymore.. so we decide to put whole families on the dole instead of either giving them jobs or encourage them to move around EU and find jobs in other EU countries.. Recycle them..They have acquired skills in one EU country, if this country do not need them anymore then either they have to go back to their own, or help them migrate to another EU nation that needs them..That requires a common EU immigration policy something that our leaders are failing to do and agree on..It would be cheaper that keep paying these people to stay idle.. Immigrant workers are hard working folk, they want to work and contribute..At least the vast majority of them.. But we just do not let them once we do not need their cheap labour anymore.. Less immigration, fairer and better or full integration please….
Doesn’t matter very much. The political trend of globalisation sais everything. I think the imigration has its bennefits. Brings young people with fresh attitude and hopes for a new start. This is priceless for a society and its economy.
A welfare tourism is inevitalble and logical phenomena if there is such a grate difference between living standards in an open space like EU. Only much greater redistributional mechanisms can solve the problem. Sadly, the redistribution by EU funds and programs is not the working mechanism for solving the inequality. This is obvious. That mechanism benefits only small gorup, mainly people at ot close to power, that have no need of raising their standard.
@David Fuzzey you are either a maniac or enormously unpolite person. We are clear about your position but you didnt prove a will to have conversation about it. So shaut up!
When will figure out that MEPs exites europe south of two borders, Ceuta and Melilla and pass the subject and Spain who have to solve the problem, almost every day there is flood of immigrants jump the fences and not fit more in hostels, cared pass the subject and is a real drama.
We should let them go to europe as we have no center support Cee.
R. de la Cruz
@Borislav Sotirov like i care about your opinion of me , and no i will not `shut up` so lump it!!!!!.
We will all mix up in the end, so better be prepared.
I think the issue is more political than we think, in the sense that we all agree there is no real budget impact, but which european government would want its voters to see that it is spending resources on immigrants rather than on its citizens, especially considering the cut in resources and the heavy sacrificies imposed….
It’s funny people who complain about this tend to be right wing and euroskeptical. On the other hand, when you tell them that communitizing social policy and making one same welfare benefit all across the EU would solve this problem, they have a fit. Sometimes they have to choose if they hate Europe more than they hate immigrants. Me personally I try not to hate either one and my life is better for it :)
In Canad welfare tourists are like a plague and sink hole. I think EU is no better.
It’s a myth it’s from Africa. In Spain we have one of the more extensive welfare systems and we receive a lot of “welfare tourist”, but the most are British and Germans, not Africans. But I’m ok with this, they come to live in Spain and spend their money here. I think we could take advantage of this if our economical politics were not so wrong.
Legal migrants are ok. Illegala are a supertax