frontexWe’ve been looking at the question of North-South relations in Europe recently. One issue that often comes up in this discussion is the thorny topic of illegal immigration and solidarity. Southern European countries often complain that the burden of coping with migration flows from outside the EU (including people risking their lives to cross the Mediterranean by boat) falls disproportionately upon border countries, whilst Northern European governments point out that migrants tend not to stay in the South, but rather to move on to the North in order to settle and find work.

During our liveblog of the recent “Citizens’ Dialogue” in Malta, EU Commissioner Tonio Borg argued that countries like Malta would be under even greater pressure if it weren’t for the EU:

tonio-borgThe issue [of immigration] is not strictly linked to the European Union. Whether we belong to the European Union or not, immigrants will want to come to Malta, Sicily and Lampedusa because we are between North Africa and Europe. But the question we should ask ourselves is: is it better to be in the European Union and get some support from our neighbours? We recieved 84 million euros from the EU to support our immigration centres. If we were not in the EU, we would have to spend that money anyway, but thankfully we are in the European Union so were given funds.

However, national governments in the South have long-argued that the amounts provided by the EU to border countries are simply inadequate given the scale of the challenge. Following the Lampedusa tragedy earlier this year, in which more than 365 people died when their boat sank off the coast of Italy, the Prime Minister of Malta, Joseph Muscat, complained that other European countries offered only “empty talk”.

Mr Muscat added: “I don’t know how many more people need to die at sea before something gets done… As things stand we are building a cemetery within our Mediterranean Sea.”

The infographic we have put together below shows the scale of migration flows coming into the EU through the Mediterranean region (including estimates of those coming across illegally by boat). For obvious reasons, it is difficult to provide anything more than estimates of the numbers of illegal immigrants, but UNHCR and Frontex do have some data available.

Finding statistics for the number of people who have died crossing the Mediterranean by boat, however, is more difficult. Some organisations suggest the total number who have drowned since 1993 may be as high as 20,000 people. According to UNHCR, over 1,500 people died attempting to cross the Mediterranean in 2011, but that was a particularly deadly year (partly due to the war in Libya), with the previous high being in 2007 when 630 died or went missing.

There is also the question of what happens to people who have made the crossing and are now living in the EU illegally. When we interviewed Cecilia Malmström, the EU Commissioner for Home Affairs, earlier this year, she responded to a question from Christoffer on precisely this topic:



Immigration03

IMAGE CREDITS: European Commission


77 comments Post a commentcomment

What do YOU think? Would countries like Greece, Italy and Malta be under even greater pressure from illegal immigration without EU funds to support them? Or are the amounts provided by the EU simply inadequate given the scale of the challenge? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we'll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.

  1. avatar
    Katerina Kyriazi

    as hard as life is for the immigrants Southern Europe has an extremely high unemployment rate, adding millions of low skilled workforce into the situation is only going to make things worse for both the host nation and the immigrant population

  2. avatar
    Georgia Tsaklanganos

    please use the term “irregular” migration, “illegal” migration is invalid

  3. avatar
    Borislav Valkov

    Bulgaria faces immigration crisys and we are uneuipped to handle it because of the economy crysis and the polytical srysis! In Harmanli is one of the refugees camps and they are on strike because of the lack of hummanity(food shortage, heating problems, lack of medical supplies and etc) towards them but they don’t realise that the entire country is in inhuman status: lack of money for medical care, lowest pensions and salaries in EU and much more….

  4. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    NO!

    The EU needs to sort out legal immigration first!

    England has the highest [after Malta] population density in the EU. Logic and fairness dictates that the burden of non-EU immigrants must fall upon the likes of France and Spain which have a lot more room!

    • avatar
      George Yiannitsiotis, PhD

      Wrong perception! England landscape and resources can accomodate much more people per square mile (population density) than Greece (where more than 2/3 of the country are least favoured areas). Therefore, you must revise your approach to the problem taking into account the landscape and other factors (like infrastructure, resources etc.) that are critical to life.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @George Yiannitsiotis, PhD
      Even WRONGER PERCEPTION indeed THE WRONGEST PERCEPTION! lol

      Look Doc, the UK land area is 243,610Km2 ALMOST double that of Greece’s at 131,940Km2 – the UK has a population ALMOST 6 times greater than Greece’s. A little bit of simple Mathematics suggests that Greece should hold another 22 million additional people before it would have a similar population density to that of the UK.

      Ergo, the EU should treble the Greek population [to c33 million] with immigrants from outside the EU, that way Greece would boom economically with a housing boom, transport boom, education boom etc etc and perhaps the levels of endemic corruption could be reduced merely by the process of cultural dilution.

      I expect that you won’t stomach my proposal – ditto your proposal about the UK.

      Suffice it to say solidarity in the EU over illegal immigration will NEVER occur so long as NIMBYs like you refuse to share the burden – you have to pay the piper some time ie the billions upon billions upon billions that Greece has received from the Fuhroland (ie German dominated Eurozone) as well as Northern EU nations.

      PS: I personally love Greece, with its great philosophy, architecture, politics and especially its fight against the evil Ottoman empire. But the Greece of today with its endemic corruption is a pale shadow of what was once the GREATEST NATION ON EARTH., Until Greece adopts some of the fantastic cultural standards of its past it will forever be a 2nd-tier nation, much to my sorrow.

  5. avatar
    Ana Georgieva

    Yes, in Turkey they were told lies.

  6. avatar
    Jean-Baptiste Perrin

    It’s pretty obvious that the help given to Greece, Italy, Malta, and so on is completely insufficient. Under Dublin II rules, most of the burden falls on these countries, while the more Western member states enjoy border protection for free.

    • avatar
      George Yiannitsiotis, PhD

      Exactly! Therefore, should Dublin II not be revised, give me a reason for Greece being a member of the West European Usurers Corporation (disguised as “European Union”)

    • avatar
      Marcel

      You tell me, George.

      Why are you so eager to stay in? Because you think the 2001-2008 era will return? News flash: it never will.

      Getting out of the EU is the solution for Greece, starting with getting out of the Euro. Whose interests does Samaras serve? IMF/bankers/EU or the Greek people?

  7. avatar
    Mariana Manolova

    Why do people come to Europe? They are looking for better life – simple and clear!
    Why the development of African countries is left to God! No vision for the future, no investments, no real steps on behalf of G20 to improve the social and economical conditions in this part of the world! Lack of ideas, lack of actions , wars, poverty for millions of people on the planet! That`s the reason for immigration flow Europe faces today!!!

  8. avatar
    Cecilia

    I’m Italian and as Italian I live on my skin the phenomenon of immigration every day. I think that the European Union has failed to address this phenomenon (and many others that we do not examine here now).

    I don’t think that it is correct to talk about a conflict between northern countries and southern countries of Europe in the case of immigration. I would rather talk about a lack of presence of the institution called “European Union”, an institution that should go over and above the national particularities.

    The European Union, in recent years, limited itself to finance profusely the program Frontex thar, at the time, has not brought any results. The only result obtained has been the creation of detention centers for illegally immigrants. These centres have been reported for the conditions of treatment of migrants, disrespectful of human rights. Now national governments have the burden of address the problem by its own as it is happening now in Italy where, after the tragedy of Lampedusa, all the Italian Navy is engaged in operations that should be responsibility of Frontex….

    Immigration, or would it be better to speak of ” MIGRATION “, is as old as man. We all know that the solution of the problem is in the countries of origin of immigrants. But even here, the action of the institution “European Union” has ceased to exist or, in some cases (es.Libia ) has helped to exacerbate the “problem”.

    Yes, the European southern countries are alone and fight among themselves (just look at the behavior of Maltese vessels that, more than once, refused to save ships full of migrants).

    The political and economic instability of these countries does not make them able to adequately address the problem, not only with restraint policies (that, in many cases, are not needed because the majority of migrants are asylum seekers) but also with reception and integration policies (for example, European Union now critices the Italian Immigration Law “Bossi-Fini, because it condemns people who offer assistance to migrants in need of encouraging illegal immigration; but this disapproval arrived only few mounths ago, after the tragedy of Lampedusa).

    This it would be clair: if the institution “European Union” doesn’t address the issue of immigration (at the origin and by other means), it favours populist, fascists and nazis parties, who exploit the issue of combating illegal immigration to legitimize violence, oppression and elimination of fundamental rights.

    Where is the “European Union”, i wonder….

  9. avatar
    Luis Jesús Gómez Saiz

    If Europe wants us, Southern coutries to take care of those ILLEGAL immigrants, and I will say it again, ILLEGAL immigrants, in case anyone hasnt read it right, we can provide them with transport to Germany, Uk, France borders? Deal? Then they will say that there is no more room for them in their countries, well neither is in Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy, Bulgaria, where unemployment rate is really high, and salaries getting lower and lower every day.

    UK doesnt want even european immigrants there, romanians and bulgarians, not to talk about african ILLEGAL immigrants, are we crazy or just stupid?

    • avatar
      Paul X

      “UK doesnt want even european immigrants”
      Correct, as already pointed out the UK already has one of the highest population densities in Europe (over 3 times the density of Spain, Greece and Bulgaria and twice the density of Portugal)
      Just when are we allowed to say we are full up?

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Luis Jesús Gómez Saiz
      This problem was created by the EU.

      The EU coerced the Northern EU countries to pay money to civilize/industrialize many of the Southern EU nations in the interests of ‘SoliCharity’.

      Unfortunately, now that the previously 2nd-world Southern EU nations have standards of living on a par with their Northern EU paymasters they are now seen as attractive locations for economic refugees from Africa and beyond.

      The solution to this problem is multifactorial and could include:

      Moving the immigrants to the ‘ghost estates’ that exist in some Club Med countries.

      Stop giving EU money to some of the Club Med countries, let them take pride in civilizing/industrializing themselves by themselves.

      Use the EU SoliCharity money to create industry and jobs in the nations that contribute most to the EU illegal immigrant situation.

    • avatar
      Pedro Pereira

      @Tarquin Farquhar

      Really? 2nd world nations? You’re view of other European countries is really f**cked up. Are you trying to say that only when we entered the UE and with UK help did we get better standards of living? Your wrong, we lived far better when we didn’t we’re in the UE. I’m currently studying in Germany, and let me say to you that I find the infrastutures in my country (Portugal) far better and I even dare to say more organized. Really, try to know better other countries before you talk about them as you knew everything. You seem a little brainwashed by the media in your country. And I can’t understand your point of view when you, by what I can’t get for your name, are maybe a second or third generation emmigrant.
      On the subject of these debate, I think is only natural if all countries contribute to help the southern countries to watch for the borders of Europe.

    • avatar
      Pedro Pereira

      If you really want to show how great your country is you should abstain yourself from comments that border the xenophobia. The southern countries are the ones that are suffering the most for being in the UE while you kept you standards of living. Yet your country is the most euro-sceptic while ours still pledge for union and understanding between all european countries. A bit ood for a country that claims itself as a “more advanced” country, don’t you think?

    • avatar
      maytevizcaino

      1.- The rising unemplyment rate and decreasing of salary in Spain is not inmigrants´s fault
      2.- Who decide that someone is ILLEGAL? Can exist an more inhumane concept that that?
      3.- Did you read or hear about what Swedish government is doing with lots of inmigrants from Syria who are arriving, even without documentation, to Sweden? Here a link with the news in Spanish: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2013/11/13/actualidad/1384366494_958825.html And here another one in english: http://www.dw.de/sweden-opens-doors-to-syrian-refugees/a-17072567
      4.- I am Spanish (uneyployed for 6 months but i have recently got a job) want inmigrants in Spain.

    • avatar
      Marcel

      Pedro. You are free to take your country out of the EU, effective immediately would be preferable.

      As long as you stay in we will apply the principle ‘he who pays the piper, picks the tune’.

  10. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris

    Look at the results… 6000 dead in a year in Malta and Lampedusa only… If that is good enough then yes the EU is doing enough… This problem is a European issue and should be dealt by all of European states together.. The immigrants do not necessarily want to stay in Malta or Greece.. So the richer nations must take more responsibility..

  11. avatar
    Cecilia Luppichini

    I?m Italian and as Italian I live on my skin the phenomenon of immigration every day. I think that the European Union has failed to address this phenomenon (and many others that we do not examine here now).

    I don?t think that it is correct to talk about a conflict between northern countries and southern countries of Europe in the case of immigration. I would rather talk about a lack of presence of the institution called ?European Union?, an institution that should go over and above the national particularities. The European Union, in recent years, limited itself to finance profusely the program Frontex thar, at the time, has not brought any results. The only result obtained has been the creation of detention centers for illegally immigrants. These centres have been reported for the conditions of treatment of migrants, disrespectful of human rights. Now national governments have the burden of address the problem by its own as it is happening now in Italy where, after the tragedy of Lampedusa, all the Italian Navy is engaged in operations that should be responsibility of Frontex?.
    Immigration, or would it be better to speak of ? MIGRATION ?, is as old as man. We all know that the solution of the problem is in the countries of origin of immigrants. But even here, the action of the institution ?European Union? has ceased to exist or, in some cases (es.Libia ) has helped to exacerbate the ?problem?.
    Yes, the European southern countries are alone and fight among themselves (just look at the behavior of Maltese vessels that, more than once, refused to save ships full of migrants).
    The political and economic instability of these countries does not make them able to adequately address the problem, not only with restraint policies (that, in many cases, are not needed because the majority of migrants are asylum seekers) but also with reception and integration policies (for example, European Union now critices the Italian Immigration Law ?Bossi-Fini, because it condemns people who offer assistance to migrants in need of encouraging illegal immigration; but this disapproval arrived only few mounths ago, after the tragedy of Lampedusa).
    This it would be clair: if the institution ?European Union? doesn?t address the issue of immigration (at the origin and by other means), it favours populist, fascists and nazis parties, who exploit the issue of combating illegal immigration to legitimize violence, oppression and elimination of fundamental rights.

    Where is the ?European Union?, i wonder?.

    • avatar
      Cecilia

      I would to say that what is lacking is not money but ideas and appropriate interventions at the right moment

  12. avatar
    Paul X

    Mariana you mean the development of African countries is left to God and the UK taxpayer
    The UK is the only country which is increasing its overseas budget (by 25%) and it is this aid which is trying to make things better for these people and stop them immigrating
    The very countries who are complaining about bearing the brunt of immigration are those who have cut their overseas aid the most (Spain -50%, Italy -34%, Greece -17% Portugal -13%)
    It’s very hypocritical to make cuts in your own expenditure, complain about the outcome and expect others to put it right

    • avatar
      Pedro Pereira

      @Paul X

      Do you really think that these countries had a choice when it came to cut the budget, or did it hve to do with, I don’t know, maybe the austerity we were forced to implement?

  13. avatar
    David Fernandes Coelho

    If more funds are needed they should be made available but on the other hand please control how the money is spent so that corruption is non existent.

  14. avatar
    catherine benning

    How can this even be considered something acceptable to a society that has been virtually overtaken by the world outside of Europe. Changing vast areas of our countries to the point of making them areas the indigenous cannot enter.

    It was a deliberate move on part of the Western leaders. Why? And more importantly why was the citizens of Europe not advised of this intention and informed fully prior to election so that they could vote for these changes.

    Additionally, as this policy was planned and encouraged as the way forward for our societies, why did the various governments not make planned changes to our infrastructure to cope with the mass invasion they new was coming?. Why wasn’t our schools, health service, housing departments and every other important needs of us all set up in a way that would accommodate this dramatic change in population.

    In fact what has really taken place across the Western world is a enforced change in the race, culture, expectation and life style of the indiginous people without their consent. That is treason. And what did the last British government under Blair do to make him and his cronies unable to be charged under our laws for making such a move? He removed the law connected to the treason act and disposed of it.

    Our birth indigenous rate is falling at a rate that will bring extinction of European peoples.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LA5xhXk_4U

    And the opposite is taking place in the immigrant population.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKYszjhiqeo

    So, what do we do about it? ….Remove any and all politicians from office that refuse to address the problem created by their forerunners and have any of those who have no plans to dramatically change it.

    • avatar
      maytevizcaino

      “Western civilization” is also a mix of many civilizations. And whatever it is…what if it dissapear? There is something bad of mix? Do you think that if I, Spanish, have children with a black person, for example, something is being lost?? I rather see it as enrichment…

  15. avatar
    Paul X

    @ Pedro Pereira
    Personally I don’t care why those countries decided to cut their overseas budget, the UK is also suffering austerity and the governments plan to increase overseas aid is very unpopular here. But it is happening and my point to those who keep going on about how Northern countries should be paying more to help with the immigration problem should be aware that the UK already does more than most

  16. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Pedro Pereira
    Typical hyper-defensive, illogical, irrational pap.

    When Portugal joined the EU the Northern EU nations gave billions to industrialize your country, civilize it (change the bulk of DICTATOR-inspired legislation etc) and upgrade its infrastructure – YOUR country JUST couldn’t afford it because it was POOR.

    Portugal was a POOR backward country before the EU [ie Northern EU nations] helped it BUT despite billions upon billions upon billions of pounds of assistance Portugal is STILL a 2nd-tier EU nation.

    I can objectively state that Portugal is 2nd-tier because:

    Portugal’s GDP per capita is low compared to the UK, Germany, France, Netherlands etc – do some research on Google/World Bank.

    Portuguese are emigrating in huge numbers as has been the case for decades – do some research on same.

    I’m not surprised by your pro-EU sentiments – the EU has been a gravy train for Portugal – at my [UK] expense.

    Also don’t be so surprised if UK citizens are not so hot on the EU, the EU costs UK folk billions upon billions upon billions of pounds each year trying to upgrade ‘proud’ Southern EU nations.

    I would much rather spend the EU soliCHARITY money that I give to various ‘proud’ Southern EU nations on preventing illegal immigration by spending said monies on people from Africa and further afield.

    Lives would be saved, jobs would be created, lives would be improved and gratitude and fulfillment would be expressed and garnered respectively.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS FOR BREACHING OUR CODE OF CONDUCT. REPLIES MAY ALSO BE REMOVED.

    • avatar
      Pedro Pereira

      @Tarquin Farquhar

      I really hope you were joking in your last comment. Where was I being hyper-defensive? EU has been a gravy train? That one killed me. I know the numbers very well and if you do the math, your country gives circa 13% of the European Union budget, and you’re circa 13% of the EU population. Not so bad, ah?
      Protuguese are immigrating (altough by what i can tell from your name you’re also a emmigrant from the second or third genration as I’ve said before)? Is that your problem? I think that’s kind the spirit of UE (free movement of people)? We have emigrants and immigrants, what’s the problem? If you weren’t so closed in your tiny ivory tower you would realize that all people benefit from that. But I see I’m wasting my time by answering you. And please don’t say “proud southern european countries”, we can tell who’s being proud here.

  17. avatar
    Ignacio C. Furfaro

    The EU cannot properly handle this issue if: (i) the surveillance and control of external borders; (ii) issuance of a common visa; and (iii) analysis, acceptance and refusal of asylum requests are not delegated to the EU. It is high time these powers were delegated and Frontex empowered.

  18. avatar
    Leila Maria Dellavilla

    illegal immigration???? reisegnez vous sur les conventions internationales avant de publier des postes comme ca. Nous ne sommes pas des ignorants!

  19. avatar
    Katarina Vella

    they are illegal for they come to our shores with no passports or visa or false documents. If they where in Libyan stay there, they have oil and more space, we don’t

  20. avatar
    eusebio manuel vestias pecurto

    Sou cidadão da Europa e vivo na Europa e defendo reformas de emigração dentro do espaço da Europa O acordo Schengen foi criado para abertura das fronteiras e pessoas mercadorias e com vista a circulação de pessoas em principio uma cómoda e boa ideia contendo a noção de espaço de liberdades justiça No entanto o prato da balança há o bom e o mau onde pode entrar maldade ganância e a desumanidade é verdadeiramente vergonhoso e repugnante é uma autética escravatura moderna que existe na Europa e no século XXI Um pais que não tenha liberdade e segurança é um pais ingovernável Há que fazer as reformas de emigração

  21. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Catherine Benning
    I actually don’t want to spend money on Africa [indeed I don’t even want to give money to Southern EU nations] BUT it appears to me that if the GDP per capita differential between EU and African nations [AND beyond] is NOT reduced then more immigrants will either die trying [which is a terrible state of affairs] to get into Europe OR they will get into Europe and as you know England in particular is running out of space.

    I don’t know what pan-European ethos you subscribe to [it sounds like a bizarre blend between racist Naziism and Club Med acceptance of endemic corruption] but it definitely sounds odious at the very least and far, far frightening at the very worst.

    Oh and BTW, please elaborate upon your ‘threatened by extinction’ assertion as it sounds a tad unpleasant.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @TF:

      Exactly what is it that you don’t understand in the full sentence I included those few words in? Seeing as you are of the opinion you are highly articulate in English, it should be obvious. And just exactly what in that sentence borders on unpleasant to you?

    • avatar
      Marcel

      These reductions of difference in GDP per capita can only be reduced by reducing GDP per capita here.

      Now go and try to get anyone to vote for that. The western world will never willingly give its ‘GDP per capita’ up.

  22. avatar
    Luis Jesús Gómez Saiz

    If you love so much “illegal refugees” take them to you home, an try to mantain them with your salary. Where are the “illegal refugees” supposed to work, without any document… Aha, I see

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Luis Jesús Gómez Saiz
      I love my fellow human being old chap – even those from the Southern EU nations which my country [the UK] has paid billions upon billions upon billions of pounds civilizing and industrializing for the past few decades.

  23. avatar
    Pavlos Vasileiadis

    Check the countries from which the main MIGRATION waves come from. Most of them are countries hard hit by civil wars, social unrest, poverty, famine caused mainly by the capitalist, bloodsucking policies that the “developed world” (the EU, as well) continues to pursue. You can’t cause civil wars and unrest in Irak, Afghanistan and Syria and, at the same time, expect that no imigrants will come. You can’t take such an outrageous advantage of african and asian resources and expect that people will sit at their eggs watching their lifes getting ruined. You can’t have it both ways. Before we start talking about measures and funds, we should start thinking ways of adressing the problem at its very root, that is to eliminate the causes that make people leave their homes, families and countries. But the elites of the EU are not going to give up their interests, so they want make the “european south” into a large “concentation camp”. We need a wider re-orientation as EU. If this does not happen, then it’s no use talking about measures, funds and anti-immigrant policies, because people will still be coming in massive numbers.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Pavlos Vasileiadis
      If Greece was still part of the Ottoman Empire – wouldn’t Greeks want some sort of external influence that helped destabilise such a corrupt, poisonous and disgusting regime?

      Just a thought?

      BTW, I’m a native English speaker with a good command of the English language. With that in mind would you please kindly explain what you mean by “We need a wider re-orientation as EU.” as I for one am a tad bumfuzzled by such a statement.

  24. avatar
    Paul X

    @Pedro Pereira
    “I know the numbers very well and if you do the math, your country gives circa 13% of the European Union budget, and you’re circa 13% of the EU population”

    I suggest you enlighten us more with your expertise and give the facts on who the net beneficiaries from the budget are, that is where the gravy train is running

    • avatar
      Pedro Pereira

      UKhs countributed with almost 14 bill. last year and the total budget was 103 bill. The EU population is 502 mill and the UK population is 64 mill.
      The country that most benefit from the UE funds is, by far, Luxembourg.
      Anyhow, there is a little thing that is called Purchasing power parity among other things. The economic system never is as simple as you depict.

  25. avatar
    George Yiannitsiotis, PhD

    Solidarity is a nonsense word in usurers’ mind. Therefore, regarding the West European Usurers Corporation (disguised as “European Union”) questions like the above “Is there solidarity in Europe over illegal immigration?” can be taken only as a joke…

  26. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Catherine Benning
    Oh, err, I asked a very simple question and I get a miasmic non-answer; hmmm, strange, very strange.

    Obviously, your command of English is superior to mine as I am still bemused by your “threatened by extinction” sentence.

    Who is ‘threatened by extinction’ exactly? Tall people, small people, thin people, fat people, white people, non-white people, pray tell Catherine Benning?

    So Catherine Benning are you a ‘weight-ist’ a ‘height-ist; or just a plain old ‘RACIST’!!

    I await your sincere [LOL] riposte with great brio.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS FOR BREACHING OUR CODE OF CONDUCT. REPLIES MAY ALSO BE REMOVED.

  27. avatar
    Paul X

    Pedro
    “The economic system never is as simple as you depict” this is a classic Euro-fudge statement.

    We are all supposed to believe that despite the fact that some countries are net contributors to the budget they all must benefit in some way, what no one can ever do is explain or quantify just what this benefit is?

    Basic law of physics which also applies to economics, you cannot get something for nothing. If there are countries that benefit from the EU budget then there will be some who are losing,
    Don’t try and waffle to me about hidden benefits, all I’m concerned with is that some of my tax that I pay to our government is given away to the EU, the day some one tells me exactly what I get in return is the day I might start believing

    • avatar
      Pedro Pereira

      @Paul X
      What I mean by “The economic system never is as simple as you depict” is that you can’t buy the same amount of one thing in one country or in another. With let’s say a thousand euros I could live like a king in, for example, Marocco, but not in Japan.
      See, not that difficult to understand. So people in UK make more money, but the products are more expensive. So saying that UK gives one billion euros to someting while Portugal only gives half of that doesn’t exactly mean that we are making a less of a effort. I hope your have learned something about economy.

  28. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Pedro Pereira
    Obviously mathematics was NOT your strong point. The UK is a net EU contributor ie it gives more free money to the EU than it receives. A lot of that free money goes to some of the Southern EU nations like Portugal.

    Also, your knowledge of UK surnames is crap – ‘Farquhar’ is an old Celtic/Scottish surname and is indigenous to the UK.

    Why do you resort to lies to putatively defend your country? It is this irrational ‘pride’ [to the point of lying] that is commonplace across some Club Med countries that frightens the likes of me in the UK and is seen as a barrier to greater UK engagement with the EU.

    Portugal produces more ‘Port’ than the UK – this is a fact. No matter how much I despise such a fact it is incontrovertible.

    The UK subsidises Portugal by EU ‘SoliCharity’ payments – this is a fact. No matter how much I despise such a fact it is incontrovertible.

    In particular I don’t like said fact as it is costing me money to prop up ungrateful denizens of a country that has such a rich history and one you don’t like said fact because you are too ‘proud’ to consider your nations weak financial status.

    No wonder corruption is a serious issue in several Club Med countries.

    • avatar
      Pedro Pereira

      @Tarquin Farquhar
      Where in my math did I conclude that UK is not a net contributor?
      About your surname, I’m sorry, I had no idea. I never heard that name before and your first name doesn’t look like english also.
      Also, I don’t have any pride in my country. Why should I be proud of the place I was born? If I had born 200Km to the East, than I had to be proud of another country? I’m proud of my achievements, not some lines drawn on a map by some politicians. You are the one who seems to be a little to proud of your country. We all know (or should know) that UK is the 7th biggest net contributor, you don’t need to use words like “solicharity” and “clubmed” in all your comments. Some countries give money and others receive. Today my country receives, but someday your country may receive. It’s not a good indicator when a country has to receive money, and I think when one does, it tries to change that as soon as possible, and we are working for that. I think is normal that some countries that are now well contribute with net money for other countries, that what UE is about. Or did you like to contribute with x and get x back? That wouldn’t make much sense, right?

  29. avatar
    Debating Europe

    We realise this is a difficult topic, and people have strongly-held beliefs (and there are some strong personalities in our community!). However, please keep the debates focused on the arguments themselves, rather than commenting on your fellow debaters personally.

    • avatar
      Paul X

      Don’t you just hate it when someone interrupts a good argument with a bit of common sense…. :-p

  30. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS FOR BREACHING OUR CODE OF CONDUCT. REPLIES MAY ALSO BE REMOVED.

    • avatar
      Pedro Pereira

      @Tarquin Farquhar
      “But if any country [EU or otherwise] needed help I would feel morally, honour and duty bound to help if I could. ”
      All your comments say otherwise

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      I did answer you previously and you know it. Why you are acceptable referring to me as a racist, and I am removed for countering that with exposing your open racism toward ethnic Europeans, which includes me, is an enigma.

      Political correctness is a threat to democracy. Which is why governments have no idea what is really happening in their countries.

      I take umbrage at removal of my post when lunatics can seemingly spout whatever insults they want.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0W9sSqeJnA

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      Now you call on the bible. LOL

      I always find it so hysterically amusing when open, Republican style, political associates claim to be Christian. Yet every word they speak and action they take could not be further from the religion they preach.

      The death penalty for example. You will always find that is the first call of a right wing bible enthusiast. Followed by, starve the neighbourhood of poor they are the reason I pay tax. Make them pay as without them I would be as rich as those at the top. End immigration from our fellow European tax payers, but, open the door to the world because they are different. I have relatives there.

      There, now you have my answer. Be satisfied for it is all you will be getting. You suffer from repetitiveness which is tiresome.

  31. avatar
    Paul X

    Pedro, your information like your maths is wrong

    http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/euo_en/spsv/all/79/

    The UK is 4 highest on this list, without our rebate we would be 3rd

    The cost of living in different countries has nothing to do with it, the balance of contribution is based on value given by the UK to the EU minus value recieved from the EU to the UK, and from that list you can see that in 2011 the UK gave a net 5.565 Million Euros, that is money from my and other UK taxpayers pockets…………. and it wouldn’t be half as bad if we could believe that anyone out there was even remotely grateful

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Catherine Benning
      Please stick to the forum question!

      BTW FTR I am against capital punishment – I live in the UK NOT the right-wing Bible bashing USA.

      I find your inaccurate association of my sentiments regarding Capital punishment singular and quite bizarre.

      FTR the UK abolished slavery BEFORE most EU nations and too the UK abolished capital punishment decades before most EU nations.

      Whether the Bible is quoted or not the fact that you chastise someone who happens to care for their fellow human being says a lot about your dark, fiendish and diabolical mind.

      At the end of the day I am not keen on ANY immigration into the UK [never mind continental Europe] whether it be the likes of yourself, or people from the British Commonwealth or indeed people from continental Europe BUT a human is a human is a human and I do NOT want the blood of my fellow human beings seeking respite, shelter and refuge [abandoned to the high-seas as is your wish] on my hands.

      The UK and the EU needs to help these poor people – possibly by 3-5 year [shelter-] visas possibly by upskilling same and returning them to their countries of origin BUT to sentence such desperate people to a death by refusing even bona fide asylum cases of financial assistance [as is your want] is DISGUSTING.

      Your PUTATIVE policies are RACIST and your comments are DIABOLICAL.

      You do nothing to promote EU values [ which even I have to concede OFTEN (not always) have merit] and you do nought to help your fellow man/woman.

      I find your opinions OBJECTIONABLE and RACIST!

      The right to life of EU immigrants and the respect of same transcends your RACIST comments on people who happen not to be “European” – whatever that is!

      PS: Judging by your classic grammatical misconstructions it is clear that English is NOT your first language albeit your command of English is not too bad but NO CIGAR.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Paul X.
      I agree with you Paul X.

      Solidarity in the EU [whether its immigration or otherwise] will NEVER occur if 2nd-tier EU nations [like Portugal] refuse to acknowledge their soli-charity donations from their top-tier EU nations like Germany, France, the UK and the Netherlands.

      Until these nations are HONEST about donations from the likes of the UK, solidarity [regarding immigration or otherwise] will never be achieved.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Pedro Pereira
      Your poor command of English betrays you, never mind I can understand your last comment in the context of your inability to assuage various [English] language nuances that are actively impenetrable to non-native English language speakers.

      Helping a migrant to live is one [POSITIVE] thing and is a moral must IMHO, subsidising lazy EU countries/citizens is another [UNDESIRED NEGATIVE] thing which I do not want to be party to.

      I would like there to be ‘Solidarity’ in the EU particularly with regard to illegal immigration but not [as is your want] ‘SoliCharity’.

      Indeed, I would rather use my UK net EU contributions which are used to subsidize 2nd-tier EU nations [economically at least] like Portugal on saving the lives of people crossing the Med seeking asylum and providing TEMPORARY shelter and training prior to repatriating same.

      However, some EU nations are addicted to my UK net EU contributions/handouts and refuse to demonstrate ‘solidarity’ to illegal immigrants as this would deprive them of their own UK net contribution ‘SoliCharity’ benefits.

  32. avatar
    Moderator

    Try to keep the debate on-topic please!

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      How you are able to continue to post on this forum is peculiar.

      You repeatedly shout racist remarks to ll and sundry and then claim those you shout at are the racist. Can you explain what racist means to you? For your thoughts on that appear strange and off the wall to me. More than a little akin to the mad leftist parties you tell us you are against. That politically correct group you claim you are not part of. And how strange you suddenly have a new found care for humanity. My eye. You don’t know what compassion is. I see you as the diabolical misguided, racist you refer to me as. But, that’s what racists of your ilk always do. Refer to others with that tarring machine they know they carry within themselves. And then cling to others to support you in the low way school bullies do toward the men on here you feel will back you up.

      What you despise is women. You can’t stand a woman who has a mind of her own. And your first move is brutality and humiliation toward them. Well, you won’t pull that on me. As what you write and shout is so obviously feigned because you get away with it. Yes, it is you who are racist, as others on here have observed. And it won’t be long before you will be tumbled by all. So, keep up with your loud mouth unsubstantiated brow beating carry on. Until you have enough rope to hang yourself. An empty vessel always makes the most noise.

      Have a nice day.

  33. avatar
    Βαγγέλης Παρ.

    I think that countries facing migration problems should try to their best with the present funding and then ask for more if it is not sufficient.
    e.g. in Greece, where the measures against irregular migration are not based on logical planning but are spasmodic, funding remains underused; Greece should use its current funding properly first.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      The only answer to this has to be those who make the laws regarding immigration coming from outside Europe being held responsible to fund the countries who are overwhelmed by the influx. There has to be payment in the billions from central government, within Europe’s decision makers, made to each and every state that is absorbing the millions who present themselves for residence and citizenship. Each one having been documented and a subsequent fund to support them throughout their time in each state. For example, if they go on welfare benefits, those benefits to be paid in full by Brussels.

      Each country outside of Europe must have a quota for entry, enabling only a certain amount annually to enter. Anyone found committing crimes against our laws or against humanity, whether that be prior to entry or subsequently, to be deported or refused and the cost of all court cases , lawyers, benefits, etc., taken on by central Brussels and distributed to each state on presentation of audited invoice.

      At that point we will do away with crazed individuals who have a dire problem with race hate we see so frequently and which is clearly maddening so many in their daily life. Which must be considered extraordinary when that hate is turned on the host culture who receives the influx into their homeland.

      What also has to be regulated from the onset and a prerequisite of entry and residence is the acceptance of all laws within Europe, regardless of the cultural expectations and lifestyle of the host culture as opposed to the one the immigrant is leaving. Examples of this being the laws on equality for the sexes, marriage, incest, child and adult mutilation, etc.. With all entrants made fully aware of the expectations and requirements of the host culture on entry. Immediate deportation being the penalty for dissent.

      A host society cannot integrate with social dysfunction being considered acceptable. It creates dissent and resentment to the extent that is unsustainable.

      Its time Brussels began some serious intellectual understanding of its policies and the detriment to each State they have been party to so far. And made to make amends both financially and legislatively.

  34. avatar
    Nikolaos Sotirelis

    The South doesn’t need funds to deal with the problem. It’s enough to abolish the shameless Dublin treaty and to provide those poor people, with the necessary travel documents to go to the countries that they wish.

    • avatar
      Marcel

      We decide. You carry out.

      If you don’t like it, get out of the EU… stop clinging to the illusion that 2001-2008 bubble style ‘prosperity’ will return.

  35. avatar
    Hans Metzke

    The countries in the Schengen area share their borders. If illegal immigrants enter Italy, for example, a lot of them are ending up in the northern part of Europe. So in my opinion it’s hypocrite to say it’s an Italian problem in this case, because it’s not. It’s a European problem. We share our borders, so we should also share and fight the problems that come with it. The outer borders of the Schengen area are not the borders of nation states anymore, they’re the borders of our common are (country). We should all have are fair share and deal in it. We must solve this at a European level.

    • avatar
      Hans Metzke

      our common country… thats what I meant ;)

    • avatar
      Marcel

      I bet you are willing to share your income with all those newcomers, let’s start with a 30% pay cut for the likes of you, agreed?

  36. avatar
    Nelson patrick

    THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS FOR BREACHING OUR CODE OF CONDUCT. REPLIES MAY ALSO BE REMOVED.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS FOR BREACHING OUR CODE OF CONDUCT. REPLIES MAY ALSO BE REMOVED.

  37. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS FOR BREACHING OUR CODE OF CONDUCT. REPLIES MAY ALSO BE REMOVED.

  38. avatar
    Debating Europe

    The debate has become too heated in this topic and we have had to moderate several times, so we are closing this topic to further comments. It’s an issue that people clearly feel strongly about, so we will re-examine it in future – but please stick to our Code of Conduct and debate respectfully with one another even if you disagree with their opinions.

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