politcal-union-or-bustWe’ve been covering a series of town hall meetings between citizens and members of the European Commission recently as part of a continent-wide “Debate on the Future of Europe“. At each of these meetings, the audience has been asked if they think a “political union” is necessary to reinforce the European Union and finally bring an end to the crisis. The response has, for the majority of the meetings we’ve covered, been positive to the idea of stronger political union (though the Commissioners themselves have been somewhat divided, with Viviane Reding, Vice-President of the European Commission, strongly in favour whilst Olli Rehn, Commissioner for the Euro, has been much more sceptical).

What does public opinion look like on this question across the EU? We’ve set out some of the available data in an infographic below (and you can click on the image for a higher resolution version). It’s certainly true that a huge majority would support greater decision-making at the European level on a number of issues, from protecting the environment to fighting terrorism and promoting democracy and peace. However, whilst 82% believe that the EU should have greater powers to protect the environment, only 7% of people consider the environment to be one of their key priorities. The issues that people really care about – such as unemployment and public debt – are issues over which the EU does not have much formal competency and that is unlikely to change in the near future.

Perhaps those countries that want to forge ahead with a stronger political union should just do so in a “two-speed” Europe? Interestingly, public opinion on this question is split fairly evenly, with 47% in favour and 40% against.

But what do YOU think about a stronger “political union” in Europe?

Political Europe0102

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What do YOU think? Is it time to reinforce the EU with a stronger "political union"? Should the EU be split into a "two-speed" Europe, with some countries integrating faster than others? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we'll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.

  1. avatar
    Lazaros Kalaitzidis

    “Stronger political union” implies a top->bottom approach that won’t solve anything. It actually means that nothing will change, but there will be a “union” in the upper political class. Which means that what today happens due to power (i.e. Germany imposes its terms on the other member-states) will continue happenning, with the little difference that we will not even be able to notice the game of power because the results of it will be refered to this so called political union. Bad idea.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Lazaros Kalaitzidis
      If the UK leaves the EU, the Latin bloc will ultimately impose their will on Germany and all other EU nations. As a Brit, I would much rather prefer Germanic direction as opposed to Latin bloc misdirection.

  2. avatar
    Lino Galveias

    NO NO NO. Your view of a strong political woman is by neglecting the sovereignty of the countries and their economies, and denying our human rights.

  3. avatar
    Christian Yeah Hörbelt

    Peace, Freedom and Justice… And all this three values we can keep alive when this project works well. Europe has to be an union, a political union. But it takes time.

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      Never will we ever want this.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Marc Germanangue
      At the moment we have educated people with 3 degrees cleaning bogs! We need focussed training ie the STEM subjects ONLY ie Science, Technology, English and Mathematics.

    • avatar
      Joachim Kokkelmans

      It is not about destroying nation-states (like Hungary as example), but about unifying them into a greater European State where all citizens of all countries are set at the same level, all equal, and speak with one voice. You could imagine it as a car with 28 steering wheels, where all 28 drivers try to go their own way: the car won’t go anywhere; but if the drivers all reach agreement about the direction, it will ride without any problem.
      So it is not about destroying Magyar Nyelv and the Hungarian culture (or others), it is about including it in a greater group of different cultures and states with their European ideals in common.

    • avatar

      Joachim Kokkelmans fails to understand it would require ‘Northern Europe’ to give up 25% of its wealth.

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      Britain will never conform to this invasion of our sovereignty.

  4. avatar
    Paul Galbally

    Yes, its time for a confederation of EU states willing and able to pool their resources, their people, and their cultural heritage; based on their will to contribute to the continuation of European civilization. And to create a common European home for all the people’s of our continent.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Paul Galbally
      I’m afraid Mr Galbally your idea is pure doolally.

    • avatar
      Joachim Kokkelmans

      Could you be so kind to explain why his idea is “pure doolally” ? Thanks

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      It is doolally because most countries don’t even like each other and would be illegal in some countries like Britain we have the Magna Carte which states we can never be ruled by outside power.Also no self respecting Brit would ever agree to this abuse of power by the EU.This simple fact is most of us don’t care what’s going on in other countries,you should just worry about your own.

  5. avatar
    George Sardis

    Before answering this question I think it would be essential to define what we actually mean by ”political union”. All the European treaties envisage the concept of an ”ever closer union” without making clear what the final stage of this union would be. As far as I am concerned a political union would mean firstly a fiscal union, along with a stronger European Commission, (that would eventually take the form of a government) with an elected President coming from a European party, to be held accountable to a stronger European Parliament. I think that the current Eurozone crisis is very much a result of the lack of a political-fiscal union, which is a crucial factor in the creation of any multinational monetary union. Obviously, we are currently experiencing the failure of interngovernmentalism, so I think it is about time that we take the European Union to the next level. Finally, regarding the German dominance that is so much an issue these days, I think that a political-fiscal union would deprive Germany of its ”punisher” role, since national policies would be coordinated at the central level, i.e. the central European government.

    • avatar

      We don’t want to pay for the corruption in your country. We will not give up 25% of our wealth to pay for transfers to criminals like Samaras and Venizelos.

    • avatar
      George Sardis

      Marcel I cannot say that I disagree with you, however Samaras is the last person to blame right now. I hate as much as you do the corruption that has taken place in the Greek political system and this is why I support the current changes that are happening in Greece. My point was that if we had fiscal union before the introduction of the euro then the Greek corruption would not have been so extensive, and we would not be able to over-borrow for so many years thus there would be no need for your country to pay transfers to us. Nevertheless, in case you are German, do not forget that you were the ones that broke for the first time the Stability and Growth pact without suffering any sanctions. Regards.

    • avatar
      George Sardis

      Also I have two more questions for you. Firstly how did you come up with this 25%? I have never heard that. And secondly, again in case you are german, have you ever heard the Siemens scandal? In case you haven’t you must now that Siemens was a big part of this corruption that you are talking about, having bribed a number of Greek politicians just to get things the way they wanted. Regards.

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      Not sure but I think Marcel might be British.But anyway George us British most definitely do not want combined European we love our sovereignty too much thank you.We get no benefit from the EU as it is hence the Referendum were we will leave,so do you really think we would want closer union I think not please explain the benefits to Britain in this idea.

  6. avatar
    Marilina Asero

    YES, OUI, SI, YA!!!! And I would add to what said by Christian “it takes time”, good will and COMMITMENT to the European Union project!!

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      No thank you most certainly NOT still we should be out soon so you lot can do what you like but I see trouble ahead in this project.

  7. avatar
    Jude De Froissard

    No….because none of the leaders will be elected by the people…like it is the case today…..a federal europe of independent states is what is best.

  8. avatar
    Annija Martinsone

    Did it helped in previous time? if the answer is positive then yes!

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Fabio E’Erasmo
      Erm, no thanks I do NOT want my country being run like any one of the Club Med countries that have dominated the EU since inception.

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      Fabio no thank you very much why would Britain want this we get nothing out of this project as it is.

  9. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris

    it depends what you mean stronger political union.. if it is on equal terms and with regards to the wishes of the ordinary citizens then absolutely a big resounding YES.. we are half way there, we should not hesitate.. the thing that I fear though that this political union will mean that the rich stronger EU states would like to dominate and shape Europe according their interests..Then hell NO!! Instead of trying to uniform all countries after a single country’s model,mentality or ideology, why not create a diverse European culture with elements from all states. In other words Greece must become a bit more German, Belgian, French or Polish and Germany must become a bit more Greek, Bulgarian, British or Swedish and so on. Instead of that the rich countries of EU want to impose their culture and mentality on other states. That is a remnant of their colonial past, racism and chauvinism. If they do not change position their European pet project is doomed to fail! If closer political union means that small nations and their interests are respected and protected by this more centralized European government then I fully support such move. If closer political union will mean that the resources of smaller states will be bought off and exploited by the larger ones with no benefit for the native population then absolutely NO!! Western European states must accept and finally swallow that the age of their dominance, expansion and colonization of other regions has finished..They need the smaller states as much as the smaller need their bigger brother nations. Also this union must have the citizens’ interests always in mind, not of the lobbies in Brussels and the big businesses.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Christos Mouzeviris
      What do you mean “equal terms”?

      If you are suggesting that a country of c11million should have a voice equal to that of the UK with a population c64 million then your views are anti-democratic.

      At the end of the day France, Germany, Italy and the UK are the biggest EU nations – that should be reflected in the democratic process at least.

      Little nations warrant little power, big nations warrant big power – this is the democratic law of the civilized-jungle!

  10. avatar
    Joachim Kokkelmans

    Yes, but only if the countries and citizens are really equal as it should be: all the voices of the member-states should be heard with the same consideration, without giving more attention or importance to the politics of one or some country more than the others.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Joachim Kokkelmans
      What you propose is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC!!!

      The people of Germany (c82 million population) MUST HAVE a greater democratic voice than the people of MALTA (c200k population)!!!

      If your little nation is averse to democracy then join the Russian Federation!

    • avatar
      Joachim Kokkelmans

      Dear Tarquin, I do not see what’s antidemocratic in the will of impartiality… I also understand and find it logic that countries with millions of inhabitants get a power proportional to their population, but I did not mean Malta should have the same power as Germany; I meant that we should not simply never listen to Malta as example, like if it had a population of 0. Sorry you understood it in another way. But then, I do not see why you recommend Belgium to join the Russian Federation: it has nothing to do with it and I do not see the link.
      Finally, I also wonder why you have to use !!!!!!!!!!! and CAPS to express your opinion: you can also say simply what you think.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Joachim Kokkelmans
      I’m sorry old bean but your poor command of the English language betrays you.

      Furthermore, seek not to direct the way I construct my posts – please remember that in the UK [and perhaps the EU] there is such a concept as FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!

  11. avatar
    Ignacio C. Furfaro

    Yes. If Europe wants to keep its leading role in the world, it must unite and pursue its common destiny. The United States of Europe is the next step in historical evolution. Together we stand, divided we fall.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Ignacio C. Furfaro
      Why should Europe keep its leading role? Your comments have a hint of racial-hegemony about them dear sir?

      What sayest thou?

  12. avatar
    Michiel Van de Peppel

    No. Unless EU wishes to impose a new war within its borders. Because that would be the only logical outcome of proceeding the undemocratic, unwanted, unsuccesfull politics of the past 30 years. Let’s quit this destructive elite project and get back to the basis: cooperate, trade and organize a yearly song festival together.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Michiel Van De Peppel

      When elites manipulate, lie and misinform all citizens and coerce nations to form a ‘grand project’ then NO GOOD will come of such an elitist and dishonourable endeavour.

  13. avatar
    Mario Biondini

    I believe that the time has come to finally realize the biggest dream that Europeans have ever done! The challenge to remain united and prosper!

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      United that’s funny I’m so glad the UK will be leaving this.

    • avatar
      Mario Biondini

      Absolutely correct!!!

    • avatar
      Stephen Pockley

      Wake up man that’s just rubbish us Brits don’t even like alot of other countries and never will.Still we will soon be out of the EU thank god.

  14. avatar
    Paul X

    Definately not more powers, they cant even manage the ones they have now without acting like a bunch of petulant kids. If a parliament cannot even make a mature decision and decide to house itself in one location instead of wasting millions of taxpayers money going back and forward between Strasbourg and Brussels then why should they be trusted with anything more?

    • avatar
      Christos Mouzeviris

      The problem is that the European Parliament does not have the powers it should and the EU Commission that is overun by lobbies and individual rich EU members leaders or politicians that think of themselves as European superstars without anybody giving them this role, run the show in Europe… That is where the problem lies… Give the EP the powers that it should have and shut the mouths of the diva politicians of the rich western EU states.. There is the solution for you!!

  15. avatar

    I don’t think a political union will ever happen. Not because there will not be a majority to vote that, but because no national government will be willing to give up more of their powers. (For example, one of the reasons to cut the budget was this as some governments in the big MS are happy with the status-quo and they are in the EU only for their own benefit as they don’t care too much about the others). Also, a political union will mean accountability to the citizens, which means elections for all the high jobs in EU, a real EU government and a clear cut distinction between EU responsibilities and national government’s responsibilities. I think the confusion of today is desired by politicians from the MS as they can use the EU as scapegoat for their failures even if EU is not even involved. Also, there is no plan, no clear objective, no roadmap that can be easily understood by any EU citizen about the future of EU. What is the purpose, why should we do it, what is the final result, why can’t we have a common immigration policy, why we keep spending money without results such as the aid in Africa while we subsidize our agriculture which competes unfairly with the African one so creating economic disadvantages and immigration, why the EU communicates so poorly that the eurosceptic press can convey any myths about the EU without EU making the truth come out, why the transparency that is so much needed is voluntary for lobbyists and corporations instead of being mandatory, etc. If EU cannot be the best in public politics, communications and institutions, then a political union cannot happen.

    • avatar
      Mario Biondini

      To the USA took more or less 200 years to become the biggest united state of the planet, sure with problems, but UNITED!!! Maybe to Europe will take more time to become really united, in view also of the fact that is a composition of too many mentalities and backgrounds!!! But I am sure that in the future we are going to have the best democratic Constitution, the best democratically elected Parliament, and the best democratic Government!!! …. If we want to survive!!!… All together we are already unsurpassed in many thinks!!! We need the fine tuning!!!

  16. avatar
    Hans Metzke

    At the moment the European Union is a bit of everything. It’s kind of a confederation, kind of a federation and kind of an economic pact. But the EU is already too integrated te bo a confederation and too integrated te be a pure economic pact or block. The only thing left for us is to become is a true federation. Just merge the European Commission and the European Parliament in a directly elected ‘Bundestag for Europe’ and reform the Council of Europe into an House of Representatives.

  17. avatar
    Paul X

    “It is not about destroying nation-states (like Hungary as example), but about unifying them into a greater European State where all citizens of all countries are set at the same level, all equal, and speak with one voice”
    …….and you don’t think that is exactly what a great deal of people in Europe find so distasteful about the EU?
    Who wants to be part of some gray Euroland where you go from country to country without even noticing you have crossed a border? Whatever happened to people being proud of their history and culture?

    • avatar
      Joachim Kokkelmans

      If I understand correctly what you mean, you think that “a great deal of people in Europe find distasteful about the EU” that its purpose is about unity and equality ? I cannot imagine that you could really be convinced that people find unity and equality distasteful…
      Do you also think it is hateful to travel from country to country without any restriction, more than not being allowed to travel to some countries, undergoing severe custom controls just because you are a stranger ?
      It is furthermore possible to maintain pride of your own history and culture, but also being open to other cultures who are not less pride-deserving than yours.

  18. avatar
    catherine benning

    What is the vision of a strong Europe you are asking us to back? What is meant by this European Union we have now? What premise is this question based on? Where are you planning to take us? Before any one of us can answer this, we have a right to know where you will lead and toward what? How can we stop a movement if you lie about what is on offer before the vote? Will you please be open and transparent in what it is you are asking us to vote for.

    What new laws and political correctness do you have in mind for us to absorb? What is the next move on your so called equality principles?. What do you have lined up for us to swallow in the future? Will it be the same old clap, the way we were forced, without a vote on the removal of marriage to accommodate homosexual relationships that do not take the commitment of fidelity as was the rule prior? What about mass immigration from outside of Europe? What are the plans for the future for that and what are the plans to deal with the social unrest you have presently caused by an influx of people who have no similarity to the host culture? What will you do about the mess you created in that instance?

    You do know these questions are part and parcel of why Europe is falling apart and why so many of our European citizens want out of it. So these are very important questions that need answering in full before any vote can be called on whether we want it or not.

    What is the plan for the economy? What will be the way forward on finance and the banking fiasco? Is austerity the continued line we have to suffer? What about our taxes, where is it all going and what do you intend to do about foreign aid? The aid we are paying through the nose for? How about or pensions and our health care, what are your plan for this? And education, what is the way forward for that? The need to know is endless and when will you start to make commitments toward what you are offering us in these?

    And of course, top of the line is: what is EU policy on the relationship with the IMF and ECB to be? These two organisations pillaged the funds of our separate states after leaving themselves bankrupt, thrusting our citizens into dire poverty and a kind of austerity not seen since medieval days. What is your answer to this? Then the biggy of NATO and US bases we have weighing us down with treacherous blackmail of forced compliance in war games not wanted by us at all. Where do you plan to take that?

    Asking us to vote on unity is way too premature This is a democracy and we should have all answers to our questions before we have a full, across the states, in a unified referendum of the people. That is democracy and I back that.

    To ask us to vote blind is duplicitous and the work of spivs.

  19. avatar
    Samuel Tandorf

    The answer is simple and thus short. It is time to build a real political union and it has been for quite a a while. If we have a closer look at the political structures in the EU it might also be time to rethink the member state system. In times where some EU regionsdo not agree to be forced to beong to a certain member state (e.g. Catalunia, Scotland) it might be time to come up with a bottom to top system where the smaller entities like regions in France or Landers in Germany form the federal states and we get rid of the extra level of governance in between…

    Should the EU be split into a “two-speed” Europe, with some countries integrating faster than others? It might be the right approach. Let’s face it, we’d be closer to our political union if it weren’t for certain member states that don’t really want to be part of the Union anyways (like England).

    We need to speed up here even if it is just for our children’s sake!

    • avatar
      Mario Biondini

      I agreed!!!

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Samuel Tandorf
      Simple yes, achievable unlikely.

      The EU is far, far, far too undemocratic – why on Earth would I want my country to adopt a lower and lesser form of democracy than that afforded by the corrupt and easily-corruptible EU?

  20. avatar
    Stephen Wolstenholme

    Let?s quit this destructive elite project and get back to the basics: cooperate, trade and organise a yearly song festival together.

  21. avatar
    eusebio manuel vestias pecurto

    O projeto Europeu têm pernas para andar a moeda Unica têm pernas para andar Por isso é preciso construir uma liderança com espirito europeu reduzir as medidas de austeridade é uma opção inteligente porque irá aparecer o crescimento economico e a competividade dentro da Eurozona

  22. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    only as long as the EU’s political institutions are democratized more than they are now. The Commission should be elected by the Parliament as the direct representative of voters. The President should be elected directly, not by 28 heads of state/government. And the Council of Ministers should be replaced by exclusively dedicated EU representatives of the member states in a Senate style body and legislation should be fully requiring a concurrent requirement. Only then should political union be strengthened. Without it, Europe loses touch with the people it governs.

  23. avatar

    The European Union was actually set up as a political construction, and the warning of the European Commission Chief Accountant at the time; Marta Andreasen, that the accounting of the funds and loans was completely skewed, was met by the POLITICAL descision to sack her and continue the course that led to the unbalance. In other words, the UNELECTED politicians have set up the European Union to fail. In 2012 the European Union General Court in Luxembourg announced that the European Central Bank will be allowed to refuse access to secret files showing how Greece used derivatives to hide its debt. In his “Interim Report” of the same year, mr. Van Rompuy outlined that the financial crisis is an opportunity to forge a greater union.

    So, it’s clear to me that more power to those that allowed this to happen, witout any public oversight will not solve this financial crisis. Instead of taking prudent action the Troika and European Commission have decided to keep the insolvent banking system afloat, and to treat this crisis as a “liquidity crisis”. Apparantly, it still does.

    Indeed the “european constitution” was voted down.
    It was always denied that this was the case. So now, suddenly it is? So how do you explain this, as being “democratic”?

    The Treaty of Lisbon actually allows the killing of european citizens, in case “lawfully quelling a riot”. ECHR art.2
    My question, then is “what laws is this bound to, when it’s supposed to be a “constitution”?
    Does it supersede the member nations constitutions? If so, when was it decided to do away with the constitutions of the member states?
    Doesn’t a REAL POLITICAL UNION FOR THE PEOPLE require a REAL CONSTITUTION? Like the one in the U.S.A.?
    This is nothing more than an unintelligable mess, that was presented 24 hours before the vote in the EU Parliament (and which couldn’t have been read, because of that simple fact).

    For a REAL political union, first there have to be major changes. And that’s not going to happen, is it? It’s your (European Commission) mess, so deal with it first, before even thinking about expanding your powers.

  24. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Joachim Kokkelmans
    Correction, Malta’s population is circa 420k.

    • avatar
      Joachim Kokkelmans

      Haha ok thank you for the data

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Joachim Kokkelmans
      My pleasure.

  25. avatar
    Rui Oliveira

    I believe in a European Union really strong, in order to find political measures that when combined, provide better health cares, and a good way of life. The austerity, is the better exemple of the wrong way, that European Union, should not follow. We must respect the values and principles, and contribute in a constrution of a federal states in europe. We must be together, and work to build and improve a new european link, in order to response better to financial crisis. We are Europe: lets act like that!

  26. avatar
    christos mouzeviris

    @Tarquin, the influence of the 64million is justifiable onlt on voting rights abd representation which yes is already democratic… But not in the way the countries are treated… The UK and other big rich countries can get away with everything and be treated differently while the small ones are bullied to compromise against their interests.. That is not a union that is an annexation… I guess the small states should better form their own union to protect themselves against the interests of the big ones!!

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Christos Mouzeviris
      Unfortunately, may I remind you that the EU is NOT democratic – a citizen of a micro-nation like Luxembourg has twice the voting power of a citizen from any of the big four EU nations.

      I understand that citizens of the small EU nations are concerned by ‘annexation by stealth’ BUT why should the UK for instance with a population greater than the sum of the 15 smallest EU nations be controlled by same?

      The small EU nations SHOULD obviously be treated respectfully BUT at the end of the day if the EU was constructed to prevent war then it needs to cater for the ‘big 3’ nations as they are the countries that could precipitate a grave European war.

      The war-mongering nations of France (it tried to conquer Europe 5x in the 1800s) and Germany (it tried to conquer Europe 2x in the 1900s) – the EU needs to benefit them else they’ll start warring again.

      The UK – The EU needs the UK because without the UK the EU will never be able to successfully compete with the US. As it is, the UK holds the economic balance of power in the ‘battle of the Western blocs’. If the UK is not able to ‘pick its cherries’ it would leave the EU, join the US, Canada, Australia and NZ [and probably Ireland] and form an economic bloc sharing one language, similar [higher than the EU] standards of democracy and law with greater population, wealth, land mass and resources than the resultant EU-27B.

      The voices of the smaller EU nations must be heard but it must be remembered that the bigger nations hold more democratic power and far more firepower – c’est la vie!

    • avatar
      Joachim Kokkelmans

      Christos, except the fact that an union of the small states against the big is a bad idea because it would only divide Europe more, I totally agree

  27. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris.

    @Tarquin.. C’est la vie my ****!!! You forget to mention that England invaded and colonized other countries in Europe too.. Scotland, Ireland and France with a 100 years of war, that if the English have won, they would proceed with conquering more nations in Europe.. They have colonized Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar and they have almost colonized Greece..

    You Taquin represent all that I hate about grey haired fuddy daddy conservative right wing mentality.. Gross!! The only way to achieve peace is to in fact integrate these three powers to the rest of the nations, making them unable to cause a war or any kind of conflict ever again..Not give them any more powers over Europe and smaller nations.. The solution will be to take powers from them and pass them partially to a more centralized government…

    As for the UK, seriously do you think that the Americans will treat the UK with more respect? The UK will be annexed and become the next US state, controlled by the Americans and their policies… Haven’t you suffered enough from the likes of Rupert Murdoch, and his media empire that rules Britain and No 10? Seriously man you Brits are thick in the head.. Guys like him dragged your country in the Iraq war, because he was supportive of it, by influencing your government and your country’s public opinion with his media.. And you still want to integrate your country to America? Haven’t you lost enough soldiers in their wars?

    @Joachim, I do not really wish such thing, but if guys like Tarquin get their way and achieve what he preaches here, then I certainly want out of such “union” and create a smaller one, more equal union!!

    • avatar
      Joachim Kokkelmans

      I understand you point and you’re right, but I do not think anger and not-so-good words are adequate to express your opinion. @Tarquin has certainly other ideas, and even though we are not in accordance with them, it is no reason to use bad words. Otherwise, I think you’re right

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Christos Mouzeviris
      I’m sorry old chap but your aggressive and over-passionate/irrational response merely reinforces a certain negative stereotype associated with the denizens of a significant number of Club Med countries.

      Furthermore, your Tory portrait of me is 100% wrong – I am 50% African dear boy and indeed the country that you now call home houses the other 50% of my gene pool – you can trawl through some of my previous posts for evidence. Your inaccurate caricature says far more about you than it does about me, indeed, the words ‘wild’, ‘uncivilized’ and ‘mad’ spring to mind at this juncture – oh err!

      If you have read some of my postings, you would be aware that I am not 100% averse to the UK being in the EU, BUT I am 100% averse to the UK being in a corrupt and distorted EU wherein big business sets the laws, wherein little unstable countries riddled with endemic corruption tout their votes thereby undermining the democratic process, wherein my country has to pay billions upon billions upon billions trying to stabilise, civilize and modernise ungrateful small Club Med countries. wherein my country’s resources are unfairly accrued by the likes of EDF, RWE, Orange, T-Mobile and Iberdrola, wherein small Club Med countries think nothing of ‘ripping-off’ the SOLI-‘C’-HARITY taken from my nation’s coffers, wherein my country’s system of ‘Common Law’ is slowly and gradually being usurped by an inferior jury-less ‘Napoleonic code’ that is prone to corruption.

      Please also note that the prospect of Germany, the UK or France waging war again with each other in Europe vanished when the UK and then France armed themselves with nuclear weapons. If there is to be a war in the EU, it will be the small unstable and corrupt EU nations that will be the root cause and these can be quelled by any or all of the ‘big 3’ quite easily.

      You need to understand that the EU needs to let the UK ‘cherry-pick’ viz. update the EU legal system, root-out corruption, upgrade police services, remove MPs’ (or equivalent) immunity from prosecution, change the EHRA which for instance legalises execution of rioters, wage soft-war on EU countries riddled with endemic corruption, focus more on helping via mutually beneficial business enterprises the 3rd world ex-colonies of the UK, France, Portugal, Spain, Belgium, Italy and Germany, change the EUs racist border and immigration policies that prevent/curtail Commonwealth immigration to the UK and too the EU and standardise on one common language i.e. “English” – the MOST multi-cultural, accommodating and flexible of all the European languages and one it appears that you are somewhat familiar with.

      If the UK is not allowed to ‘cherry-pick’, then we [as is colloquially said in these parts] will ‘do one’ and although in the short to medium term the UK will suffer, in the long-term the EU will decline and the UK will be much, much better off.

      Oh and with regard to your comments about the UK might I suggest that you research the phrases “Act of Union” and “Alexander The Great” [a brilliant Greek warmonger no less] as well as research as to why the UK did not follow France in joining the USA in threatening to invade Syria and why the likes of Rupert Murdoch carry significantly less gravitas [than what you think] when it comes to influencing public behaviour in the UK.

      Finally, might I re-iterate that you have unfortunately, reinforced that oft-touted ‘passionate’ [read irrational/illogical] stereotype of a Club Med minion dear boy and compounded it further by falling foul of the ‘a little learning is a dangerous thing’ aphorism.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Christos Mouzeviris.
      So you want an EU wherein the little nations UNDEMOCRATICALLY dominate the big nations whilst I want an EU wherein the big nations DEMOCRATICALLY lead the little nations.

      I believe in democracy, it is clear that YOU DON’T!!

    • avatar
      Joachim Kokkelmans


      You demonstrated that you like accuracy with the inhabitants of Malta… Well I like accuracy too, and Alexander the Great came from Macedonia rather than Greece. Good night

  28. avatar
    christos mouzeviris

    @Joachim.. Politics are a very strong and emotional topic to discuss and every now and again everybody drops political correctnessand says things as they are or loses the plot and lashes out.. Why do you think we do nor often watcg what is being discussed in our government meetings or if we do, they are usually edited… Because even our politicians occasionaly lose it…

    • avatar

      The discussion seems to be getting out of hand. As such, all comments that are off-topic will hereby be removed.

  29. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris.

    @Joachim, no Alexaner the Great was a Greek man.. The ancient Macedonian Kingdom was a Greek Kingdom.. Ancient Greece was not just Athens Sparta and Corinth..It included Thessaly, Macedonia and Epirus, though these were kingdoms, not city states.. Ancient Greece was not just the southern Greece… You are speaking to a Greek Macedonian…!!

    @Tarquin you are talking rubbish..!! Who told you that I want small nations to undemocratically dominate large ones? You have no idea what democracy means.. And like all AngloAmerican porpaganda affected folk, you use the word “democracy” and “freedom” to win an argument, while you have no idea what these words mean… If the large nations want to “democratically” lead the smaller nations, then they should bother to see things from their perspective and know about their political reality, their sensitivities and find out their needs.. If they want to lead us, they must start thinking like us and work for our interests too, not just theirs.. What they want to do though, is to impose their will, interests, way of thinking and culture on to us.. That is not a sign of a “democratic leadership”, rather an ideological imperialism and expansion.. If Germany France and Britain want to lead Europe, then they should work for the benefit for all states and all peoples of Europe, not just their nationals.. Do you understand?

  30. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris.

    Also Tarquin, seriously do you believe that the UK is losing out, than gaining more from the EU membership? Your companies are having access and dominate the markets of many other countries.. You mention a lot of European companies that have settles in the UK, well guess what, there are many British companies that are settled in other countries.. Tesco, M&S, O2 and so on.. That is open market for you, that you British so passionately support..

    Rich countries benefit more from the single market, ask anyone to confirm you this.. Why otherwise your country supports the inclusion of Turkey in the EU so passionately? Because you want access to the large market of this country, as well as for other political reasons.. If you check your country’s history, you were the pillagers and robbers of all other countries that you set foot on, resources and wealth..Seriously what makes you think that now you are losing out? You used the word Cherry-picking and that is exactly what you want to do..

    And I would think again when using the word “civilizing” the Club-Med countries.. Have a look at the Jeremy Kyle show, to see the “higher” culture of Britain..Binge drinking, drug abusive, dysfunctional people that constitute a large part of the British society, if you only scrap the posh surface.. Who do you want to civilize?

    Your rants are far more crazy and irrational that anybody else’s in this forum.. If it wasn’t for the Romans and The Greeks, your “great” British culture would have started centuries later.. Think again and read some more history.. You will find your answers there!!

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Christos Mouzeviris
      Ah, your accurate albeit overstated caricature of British ‘binge’ culture is something that I too despise – it is a state of affairs I acknowledge exists; although it seems not too off putting for the hundreds of thousands of Greeks [fed up with endemic GREEK corruption, GREEK lies and GREEK racism] who either settle in the UK or one of its colonies such as AUSTRALIA, NZ and CANADA which all share a similar cultural ‘joie de vivre’ shall we say.

      On the other hand YOU have repeatedly failed to acknowledge the endemic corruption rife in GREECE – this is why I sometimes feel I do not want to be in the EU. I do NOT want to be in the EU if it requires my country to be involved in the affairs of uncivilized, morally and financially corrupt nations that seek to blame everyone else for their own weaknesses.

      Oh and BTW I doff my cap toward the great ancient Greeks [if you had bothered to read my previous posts you would have known this] they indeed indirectly helped civilize the UK and indeed the whole of Europe we ALL owe a lot for the founders of Western civilization.

      As regards the modern Greek state viz. its leaders [and the likes of you] lack the emotional fortitude to be honest – they/you blame everyone else for their/your woes.

      I imagine that their/your ancient forefathers must be turning in their graves witnessing the uncivilized, immoral, ignoble goings on in the country that founded Western civilization.

  31. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Christos Mouzeviris
    Yet again, you reinforce the negative Club Med stereotype with your splenetic, aggressive, irrational, illogical vitriol – you really must refrain from such UNACCEPTABLE classless articulations as you quite simply demean and debase yourself.

    Please note that in a lot of the civilized Northern EU nations we try to argue logically and dispassionately much like the fantastic philosophers of Ancient Greece who I’m certain you are more than aware of. Please endeavour to do same.

    On the subject of your anti-democratic views you need to understand that my country has a bigger population than the 15 smallest EU-28 countries – if the sum of the lesser EU-15 vetoes something that my country aspires to then that is UNDEMOCRATIC, something that YOU appear to support.

    Likewise, if the lesser EU-16 nations [in terms of population] vetoes something that my country [the UK] wants then the EU-16 as YOU yourself stated “should bother to see things from their [the UK] perspective and know about their [the UK] political reality, their sensitivities [the UK] and find out their [the UK] needs”.

    One of my personal sensitivities is that for decades my country has supported the likes of Greece financially, militarily, academically and economically [positively working for the benefit of all states as you previously stated] and STILL you want more power than you are democratically entitled to, still you tout the partisan bile propounded by the likes of the biased and discriminatory “Euronews” amongst others. HAVE YOU NO SHAME?

    On the VERY RARE occasions that the UK or France or Germany or indeed on occasion even Italy [the big EU nations that pay most to support the EU project] over-rule the democratic process [undermining the democratic process unfortunately, but pragmatically please note that the perfect democracy costs everything and takes forever to achieve] consider it PAYBACK for all the CHARITABLE SUPPORT that some of the little, corrupt, basket nations that dominate the EU appear addicted to.


    • avatar
      Christos Mouzeviris.

      What I find amusing Tarquin is that you believe the UKIP nonsense. I only return a portion of your own poison, you that for so long have been slandering the “club-med” nations in this forum, insulting a huge part of the European population, just because you are brainwashed to think that they are to blame for Britain’s troubles..

      Smaller nations do not “sponge” the UK, it is the other way around.. The loans that the bailed out nations receive go to stabilize the European banking system.. In other words, your money goes to the hands of German, French and British bankers, through Greece, Ireland and Portugal while the nationals of these countries have to endure harsh austerity and put up with the slander from their so called “allies”..

      If Britain and other rich European nations did not have the habit of stealing other countries’ resources and money and allowed wealth to flow equally in Europe or the world, then they would not need to keep bailing out countries, deal with immigration or support other financially..But guess what.

      European rich nations have established smaller banana states that aid the tax evasion from other countries, and so we have so many tax havens around western Europe and their oversees territories..Have you ever counted the number of British territories that function as tax haven states throughout Europe, the Pacific and the Atlantic regions, stealing money from other countries from taxes that are not being paid? That is how Britain makes money and then you dare to call other nations corrupt and basket nations, when in fact you are the corruptors of other nations?

      Greece has to keep buying weaponry from rich nations like Germany, USA, Britain and France to protect itself from Turkey, a NATO ally.. But it is the weapon industries of these countries that corrupt our politicians in order to keep buying weapons that we do not need.. Your countries make huge profits in result, while ours remain always dependent on your money.. If your corrupt and greedy governments stopped corrupting our own for profit and political economic or military influence in our region, then you would not have to sustain us..

      The problem is that your corrupt governments LOVE to corrupt smaller nations’ government and have them under their control increasing their influence..In return, they throw bucket loads of money in our government, not our countries for compensation and bribe.. So you see the only ones to blame are YOU CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS that if they stick their noses out of other nations business then you would not have to pay a penny to keep the status quo in a region.

      But guess what, if countries that are under the control of your governing elites were able to trade and progresses as they pleased, you my friend would be much much poorer.. So drop your stuck up attitude, you are not even a pure Brit to have it!!

  32. avatar
    Alena Stratilova

    The issue of the environment and the quality is greatly important for the whole of Europe. The issues – such as unemployment and public debt the concerns whole of Europe of it should addressed when the economic crisis began but the issues over which of EU does not have much formal competency now “it is typical reply”.
    The unification of Europe should contribute to a better life populations. EU and its activities until now ??? Unemployment and indebtedness in Europe is for several years.
    employment, air quality, reduce the national debt, quality education, quality health care. Five important points, five of the most essential point !!
    probably for 28 states and all represented members this is too strenuous ……
    Each state has a different national culture. and agree on one particular thing. Is the problem the EU. Agreement for particular thing. Centralization might be a solution.

  33. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris.


  34. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Christos Mouzeviris
    You are a disgrace to your once great country sir. You appear to be in a constant state of vituperative splenetic vitriol bounded by a leathery hide of infinite denial.

    Greece will become [if it is not already] a laughing stock/basket-case/banana-republic if its minions continue to refuse to acknowledge and rectify their endemic levels of corruption and too their blame-everyone-else-but-me culture.

    Checkout the “Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes Project” to witness the Greek assertion that they are the most trustworthy citizens in the EU! LMAO!!

    Furthermore, checkout the almost pandemic-levels of racism exhibited by the once great nation of Greece – wherein millions of Greeks now support the murderous racist-fascist group GOLDEN DAWN [judging by your previous posts to me I’m betting there’s a good chance that you are a member of GD too BTW] and then have the cheek to accuse Angela Merkel [kindly and respectfully ploughing billions upon billions of Euros of CHARITY into the eternally ungrateful Greek’s coffers] of being a Nazi!!

    You and some of your country-folk have defiled the splendid virtuous history and memory of Ancient Greece.

    You are more CHEEK than GREEK sir – you are a disgrace to Greece and its brilliant heritage and a disgrace to the EU.

    • avatar
      Limbidis Arian

      Pray tell me, do you know what happens if Germany stops funding the greek debt?
      When you will KNOW what happens to german and french banks you will understand that miss Merkel is actually playing a POLITICAL THEATER.
      The greeks have her at their whim.

      If they don’t get bailed out, they can’t pay the german and french banks – which would collapse, AGAIN ( because they already collapsed in ’08.
      So SHE HAS to give the greek the money. And to make the theater complete:
      “we will punish you greek people, because you are lazy…and not hard working as us germans and..”
      It’s the BANKS who racked up teh debt, the govt has the debt now because it saved the BANKS.
      Both german and french AND greek banks.

  35. avatar
    Debating Europe

    Please keep the debate focused on the issues and arguments and don’t make personal remarks about other people in the debate. If the debate continues to drift off-topic, then we will be forced to close it.

    • avatar
      Christos Mouzeviris.

      Debating Europe I did not see you deleting anything of what Tarquin has said about me, Greece or the “club med” countries he was raving for months now.. I understand and respect the fact that the discussion went out of control and I apologize, but I would also appreciate next time some censorship on what people like Tarquin are promoting in this debate.. The absolute stereotypical portrayal of some countries by a some members in here is unacceptable..

  36. avatar
    catherine benning

    @Christos and Tarquin, politics is an emotive subject. You are both clever guys who know more than most. And if you read carefully what you write you are not a million miles apart.

    I really appreciate what both of you write. I learn a lot from it.

    Greece and the Greeks were the founders of our European civilisation. As well as the Egyption State, as the Pharraoh’s were Greeks and married incestuously in order to keep the mind of the Greek thinking in their gene pool. Cleopatra was not African she was Greek.

    And Tarquin, there is a huge difference in being an African/Greek person who lives in the UK to that of being British. Nationalisation is something that is open to the world. Being English, Scottish or Irish is unique and part of a minority on our planet.

    So Christos is Greek, you are part Greek. and therefore, that should bind you more than you appear to realise.

    • avatar
      Christos Mouzeviris

      Tarquin is partly Irish.. And I am a Greek living in Ireland.. What I oppose is the stereotypical portrayal of any European country either it is from the Easter Europe Southern or Western… The smear campaign that the American dominated European media started against Greece, a nation least to blame for the eurozone’s woes and focused only in Greece not the other EU states that received a bail out plus the distorted image of the situation in Greece and the rose tinted portrayal of what is going in the richer northern nations that somehow escape the slander of the corrupt to the bone European press, is something I fight against.. Youcan not build a “union” if there is such attitude from certain members to a group of others….

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Catherine Benning
      Thanks – but I have a few points to make.

      1…I am 50% African and 50% Irish [I INCORRECTLY confused Christos with another blithering, blathering chap from Greece who now lives in Ireland] and born and bred in a great English city – your comments about Nationalisation (naturalisation?) do NOT apply to me and in some eyes could be perceived as a tad too right-wing.

      2…I agree that Christos and I have a lot in common BUT he appears unable to accept cultural/memetic criticism of any form resorting to a hectoring stentor-like vitriol that only reinforces a certain disdainful cultural stereotype associated with denizens of Club Med countries.

      3…I argue for an EU [IF we are to have one – I would much rather prefer a Commonwealth Union] with British standards, British law, British policing, British sense of fair play and so on and so forth. British cultural memes are in the main superior to the EU/Club Med offering and should only be superseded by something better not something inferior like the current EU offering.

  37. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris.

    Tarquin you are the one unable to accept any criticism on cultural grounds.. Just look at your comments.. I have never denied that there is corruption in Greece or that Greece has a lot of issues to resolve.

    BUT unlike you that you live in a bubble of the national media and propaganda, I live in another EU country and traveling a lot throughout Europe, plus having friends from all over the continent, so I have a more spherical point of view. Having debated with other Europeans about what is going on in their countries, I know by first hand, that Greece is not the only country with these problems.. A lot of countries with similar history face exactly the same problems as Greece but they are not being stigmatized by the European press.

    Ireland is one example, and it does not belong to the “club-med” nations, it is actually a northern European nation..BUT it has through its history been through similar conditions that Greece and many other countries have been through and thus it now experiences similar problems of corruption.

    Corruption itself is a sign of a broken system, it is not in the DNA or culture of a nation or a race.. And there are many different types of corruption. Different countries suffer from different types of corruption and face different social issues that have established themselves because of certain historic factors that the country experienced..

    Nations like Sweden or Switzerland that haven’t been occupied, invaded, or attacked by another nation for decades or even centuries, have had time to establish a better social and political system..Some other nations like Greece and Ireland were not so lucky.. It has nothing to do with their mentality or culture, rather the fact that generations of people went through great instability, poverty and deprivation and these facts have made the people who are now the ruling class to develop a certain way of doing business.

    That is NOT reason to stigmatize them, exclude them or bash them.. Because as I have proved, if we scratch the surface we can find a lot of corruption, different kind of it in rich nations with a lot of power, just like the US and the UK.. It is a different kind of corruption of course…

    German companies corrupt the Greek politicians to sign deals that are against Greek and European law, and never pay taxes to the Greek state that they should be paying.. Yet it is the Greek people who were unaware of such transactions who take the blame and the slander, not the Greek government and of course not the German business elites who bought off key Greek politicians in order to get what they wanted..

    Tell me why are the Greeks only corrupt and not the Germans? Coming to Britain a country that encourages tax havens to exist and a corrupt financial global system, yet no one dares to criticize the rife corruption that exists in Westminster, that results in the interests of the British people’s interests being ignored for the benefit of the global elites.. Yet because your media are more than happy to blame Europe and the other poorer European nations, you are happy or stupid enough to fall for their propaganda, instead of looking what is wrong in your own country.

    The same problem faces every government in Europe, but by criticizing the “club-med” nations, you are practicing elite politics, Conservative and narrow minded.. You fail to accept or observe the role of your government in the whole mess that Europe or the world finds itself it, yet it is easier for you to blame the Greeks, the Spaniards, the Italians and so on for this broken political and economic system that Europe is experiencing..

    It is not a Greek, or German, or British fault, corruption exists in pan European level and exists in all countries, the worse kind of it in the rich countries with great power.. And that is a fact that you may want to deny to satisfy your nationalism or chauvinism, but I can not help you with that.

    We can not change Greece if Europe does not allow it. We tried to vote for the Syriza party and get rid of the New Democracy and PASOK parties in Greece, the two parties who brought the country in this state with the tolerance or cooperation of many of Greece’s European “partners.”

    But then it was Europe who terrorized the Geek citizens and ordered them to vote for one of the two establishment parties that they have used to do business all this time.. I am not a Syriza supporter but I would be more than happy to see one of the two establishment parties in Greece and elsewhere GONE! But European leaders fear this change because they won’t know how to deal with a new political reality in Greece. So they are to blame for giving this corrupt elite more power in the country, just to serve their own interests and ambitions.

    Europe has a great amount of blame when it comes to Greece’s failures.. They knew what was going on for decades in Greece but they did not do anything about it because it profited their economies, to have the Greeks and other citizens of the peripheral countries overspending.

    It happened in Ireland too, where the people went mad with spending, because the government and the banks not only encouraged it, but actively pushed for it. Yet now it is the average people who come to bail out the Banks and yet another generation of Irish people that are forced to emigration..

    Club med or not you can not bash, scapegoat or slander and smear countries with a great culture, history and a very important role in the European history, economy, culture and political reality. And I am not talking about ancient Greece, but the modern one too. Where would Europe be if 1 million Greeks did not die while opposing the Nazis and fascism during the 40s, when other nations like Sweden chose to cooperate with the Nazis and do business with them. The Greeks fought in two world wars and they helped shape modern Europe more than any other small nation in the continent. Yet now it is Sweden that is presented as a model society while Greece is victimized for the failures of the euro, a currency who I am sure you agree that Greece played a little role in shaping it.

    You may have your own views about the future of your country or where your country’s alliances may lie. That is your prerogative. But please avoid using other nations as a scapegoats to support your position. No, Britain is not superior than other European nations, nor is Greece Germany France or any other country.. But at least Greece is not acting with chauvinism and arrogance that is much evident in the mentality of the British, French and many other North-Western nations or at least it was not until the European backed austerity measures have given a ladder for far right groups to gain prominence in my country..

    I will say no more about this topic. European unity or even just a closer cooperation and trade if that is what you prefer, can not survive with arrogant mentality and ideology that you and many other rich western or northern European nationals have.. At least not for the equal benefit of all members, because what has been happening until now, it was rich countries getting access in the markets of the smaller ones and taking over them, creating huge revenue for themselves, yet moaning when it came the time to pay and compensate these countries for the loss of competitiveness of their products and markets.. Haven’t you noticed how similar a market in any European country looks like? IKEA, Lidl, Aldi, Carrefour, Tesco, M&S, Zara, H&M..All European multinational companies that have taken over the markets of smaller states and squeezed out local small SMEs and local businesses.. I hope you get the point now..!

    That is it from me I have said all that I had to say..

  38. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris.

    “I argue for an EU with British standards, British law, British policing, British sense of fair play and so on and so forth. British cultural memes are in the main superior to the EU/Club Med offering and should only be superseded by something better not something inferior like the current EU offering.”

    That will never happen, not matter how hard you are trying.. Not because of the club med, or Greece or me.. But because it is a simple principle that when you belong in a group, you play as a group and you learn to compromise, something that you Brits have not learned to do yet..

    I doubt that the Germans or the French, or even the Italians Polish Spaniards Romanians Belgians and the Dutch or anyone, will ever ever condone to adopt British law, way of doing business, mentality, or sense of “fair play” (that made me laugh).

    It is unrealistic what you seek and it will lead to Britain being an isolated island nation. Instead of trying of imposing your views, try to understand the issues that others are facing and you got to admit that Britain is not a brilliant example of “fair play”..

    There are other nations in Europe that rank much higher in some fields than Britain, child welfare for example that Britain ranks much lower than countries that you think so little of..

    The above paragraph only states the delusion that British politicians have about their role in Europe and this, through the propaganda of the British media, is reflected on what you say in here.. I rest my case!!

  39. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Christos Mouzeviris
    Firstly, please note that I am not 100% averse to an EU political union BUT not based on Club Med memes.

    Secondly, what a bizarre, singular and weird man you are!? You have very little information about me and yet you have constructed a ‘straw man’ representation of me that is quite chilling.

    I raise your risible ‘spherical’ point of view by stating that I have worked in 5 EEA countries + the USA, I’m reasonably fluent in French and I can get by in broken German. I am the product of 2 countries (indeed 2 continents) and I was born and raised in a 3rd country – my home, the UK. I have friends and family from all over the world and my family has as well as European and African roots has Indian (Hindu and Sikh) and [recently] Philippine branches.

    Thus regarding your ‘spherical’ point don’t you really mean ‘sphincter-al’ point?
    Indeed your postings are averse to exactitude:

    You mention talking to people across Europe thus ‘knowing first-hand…’ – INCORRECT – by talking to protagonists you have gleaned information second-hand.

    You talk of me slandering Club Med countries – INCORRECT – you cannot slander by posting on a forum, you can libel though, but I have yet to do so as I have always asserted that said countries are corrupt based on Transparency International’s data and/or the multitude of facts, documentaries and news reports [newspaper and TV] that frequently highlight the top-down corruption endemic in Greece and other Club Med countries.

    You state that Britain is not superior to Greece – INCORRECT [and ANTI-DEMOCRATIC] – in terms of population for instance Britain IS superior to Greece – FACT. Similarly, regarding the same parameter Britain IS inferior to Germany.

    As regards your anti-German tirade [a passion shared by GOLDEN DAWN members I believe] the Germans have for MOST [not ALL] of the last decade been identified as more corrupt than the UK and the Scandinavians – that’s a [German-based] Transparency International fact. Indeed, all the aforementioned countries nearly always fare better than Club Med countries in the TI league table.

    I can quite rightly state that the Club Med countries are corrupt – go to Transparency International for proof, year in, year out. This applies to DEBATINGEUROPE too – you should not censor corroborated facts just because a deluded popinjay ‘feels’ [without merit] insulted! I have criticised the memetic/cultural norms pertaining to the Club Med countries and too I have lauded their great historical achievements – I have NOT like the panjandrum that is “Christos Mouzeviris” made outright racist [GOLDEN DAWN-like] comments – relating to my African heritage.

    Genetic prejudice ie racism [as exhibited by Christos Mouzeviris to me earlier] is WRONG and should warrant a greater punishment than a retracted post methinks!

    Memetic prejudice however is an acceptable, legitimate form of human expression and evolutionary contention.

    • avatar
      Christos Mouzeviris.

      You are a nut job and an idiot Tarquin… Your arguments are of a person who is mentally unstable.. Britain superior of other nations, or Greece? Hahahaha!! On economic grounds perhaps, because it is being favored by the current economic system. Transparency international and any other company or organization that rates nations are biased, acting according to the dominant ideology of the country their are based, aka USA or western Europe..

      You are not worthy to speak or debate with, you are racist, chauvinist, person full of biased information, hatred and arrogance perhaps coming from a feeling of inferiority that exists in all people with narrow mentality and education. Keep playing your video games, you are better in this field of shooting imaginary enemies.

      And Debate Europe DON’T YOU DARE TO DELETE MY MESSAGE AGAIN, unless you delete Tarquin’s too. If you think that what he is writing is acceptable while mine posts are not, then you are not doing your job right, got that?

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Christos Mouzeviris
      You are a fantastic exemplar of why closer political union in the EU is fraught with difficulties and indeed may not be achievable in my lifetime given your inability to accept criticism and your lack of self-control when posting.

      You contradicted yourself in your first paragraph.
      You also committed a falsehood ie you failed to ‘rest your case’.
      You contradicted yourself – you are still debating with me.

      There will never be full EU political union if genetic partisans like yourself (AKA racists) are unable to accept memetic critique from the likes of people who happen not to share the same genes as yourself.

      Everyone deserves and has the right to express their views on the EU – but given your frequent illogical and undemocratic postings, your racist comments, your “Eblana European Democratic Movement” and indeed your numerous EU comments on the web – it is clear that you have a frightening and disturbing ‘extremist’ psyche. I hope we never cross paths whenever I go home to meet my family back in Ireland – your FUNDAMENTALIST aggression is quite fearsome and I’d be worried that you might lose control given your numerous unacceptable rantings and your crank/zealot/fundamentalist movement.

      PS: Are you able to categorically, honestly and wholeheartedly confirm that you are currently NOT and never have been a member of GOLDEN DAWN!

      PPS: Are you able to categorically, honestly and wholeheartedly confirm that you do not receive monies from the EU, an EU sanctioned body or a pro-EU organisation of some sort on behalf of your Hiberno-Greek pro-EU EBLANA organisation?

  40. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris.

    Debating Europe I do not know and I do not care what the agenda of people that use your platform is. Some of them perhaps might hide behind anonymity and a nick name and their only purpose is to discredit individuals that are here to express their honest opinion and perhaps these people are acting of behalf of governments, political groups or parties or even the media, lobbies and interest groups.

    These people might be well known individuals that hide behind a fake identity in here, that allows them to say things that otherwise they would not be able to.Or they might work for certain political parties or individuals and their job is to attack freedom of speech and destroy any constructive debate that would result in the change of the political status quo and establishment in Europe in general, or individual member states.

    Or perhaps they are simply mentally disabled and disturbed people who are so sad and lonely, angry in themselves that they desperately seek and engage on online bulling and aggression to stimulate and satisfy their distorted bipolar mental state.

    What I think your purpose should be is to allow citizens to express their honest opinion without being ridiculed or attacked by individuals such as Tarquin, that either are absolutely mental and in need of professional help, or they have a smear agenda towards any dissident opinions. I won’t stop to push for a more equal and democratic Europe, no matter how much I am loathed or I offend certain groups or individuals.

    This is a platform of the citizens to discuss freely their vision for a future European Union and exchange ideas. If my ideas are distorted by certain individuals trying to present me as a racist crazy person, in order to discredit me and my political views then I think you should apply a policy that people who participate in the debate have their identities verified and acting under their own name. You know very well who I am and where you can find me. Can you do this for Tarquin and see who is hiding behind his persona?

    In that way people like him won’t be able to cyber bully or attack members of your forum.. If this was happening in any other forum, the owners of it would proceed with legal action against such individuals and they would be prosecuted. As they should. Cyber bullying has claimed lives in many occasions, and though I am not a person who would give up because a mentally unstable person speaks to me in a forum like that, the principles are that such behavior must be stopped.

    I have never spoken to another person in this forum as I am spoken to now, and I am writing in your forum for over a year now. I demand respect and justice. So what are you going to do about it?


  41. avatar
    Tarquin Farquhar

    @Any pro-GOLDEN-DAWN members
    The idea of an EU, a unitary group of nations working together, co-operating, enhancing themselves and the greater world is an attractive one BUT the EU as-is needs a radical overhaul.

    Closer political union will not be achievable unless:

    The EU’s institutions are made more democratic.

    The bank accounts of all MEPs, EU staff and their families are independently audited and made public on an annual basis.

    ALL MEPs, EU staff,and their families MUST NOT engage in employment [after leaving their EU role] related to their EU role for 5 years thereafter.

    ALL think-tanks must explicitly and without ambiguity include in their name their specific remit – thus making same and their cause immediately identifiable to all and sundry.

    The EU buildings, infrastructure and staff should be moved around those EU countries with an infrastructure (transport, communications etc etc) big enough to support same for a period of 5 years each time.

    ALL EU business must be conducted in English only – the most European language of all European languages – it is a mongrel language borrowing from many other EU languages such as Roman/Latin, German, French/Norman, Viking/Scandinavian and Celtic. This will save the EU lots of money and will unify the nation super-state.

    The EU civil service should proportionately reflect the demographic of the EU. At present for instance, the EU civil service has a greater Polish (population c39 million) representation than the UK (population c64 million) – this is obviously unacceptable.

    All potential EU legislation must be documented such that all contributions to same [word by word] are acknowledged by name and by country – that way ‘background horse-trading’ is more easily identified.

    Finally, the EU MUST come down hard on extremist parties like GOLDEN DAWN and indeed those that make RACIST comments [as has been frequently demonstrated on this forum by a chap sharing the same country of origin as GOLDEN DAWN who made GOLDEN-DAWN-esque comments] and somehow address the tendency in certain EU countries to blame others [Roma, Africans, Jews, Arabs etc etc] for their own societal shortcomings such as denial, pride, inability to accept criticism and of course lack of self-control.

    Parties like GOLDEN DAWN and those individuals that peddle their racist filth [are you reading this Christos Amusingvirus?] should be allowed to exist BUT all members of same must be documented [with a bio + image] by Europol and said information must be made available to all police forces, newspapers, transportation hubs etc across the EU.

  42. avatar

    The problem with large powerful federations is they tend to over meddle in other global issues that really don’t concern them. Better is to focus inwards on Europe, making it a safe haven / nice place to live and work. If you take the power away from the small countries of Europe, that conglomerated power becomes significant. Those in charge of that power are predictably susceptible to ever egotistic ambitions that predictably cause problems, both for Europeans but any recipient region of meddling. Separate to manifestation, the ego’s of those who are not members of the “greater global powers” are significantly challenged; in a nut shell people do not like being told what to do, especially by people who your share little in common with.

    The problem with the EU is over zealous ambitions combined with un-accountable incompetency, the greater the power handed over the greater the problem. I am not keen on a Europe without a union however this current union has through greed taken too much and compromised everything.

  43. avatar
    Limbidis Arian

    First of all this is REALLY disrespectull for this site to put the EU symbol on a bloody TRASH CAN.
    You people are suppose to be FOR the EU dammit, not against it. These kind of images are the symbols the ultranationalist maniacs use. What’s your excuse?

    And on topic:
    Right now news of UK and Germany working together to UNDERMINE bank regulations does not make me hopeful that “greater union” will solve things.
    The problem is the whole system is being taken over – if it is not already – by banker interests, rich people and corporate interests.
    And teh big losers – AGAIN – are the average people in the streets.

    The EU is turning into United Stated of America.
    Yes that fascist so called “land of freedom” where corporations are “more equal than others”.

    If this is the future of the EU, a corporate land where those that promised us so much are just the same old corrupt officials as they are in America. I want nothing to do with it.

    • avatar
      Tarquin Farquhar

      @Limbidis Arian
      I agree – putting the EU symbol on a trash can is a disgrace, a turd would have been far more appropriate! LOL!

      And on topic:
      I think the main gist of the UK and Germany’s discussions revolve around cutting EU-generated superfluous red tape – not just banking. Cutting said red tape could help firms ultimately employ more people – a good thing methinks.

      As regards calling America a ‘fascist’ state methinks that’s a tad extreme. Sure the USA is a bit too capitalistic, selfish [in terms of GINI index and lack of universal healthcare] and gun-toting for me but overall it’s better in so many ways and at so many levels than most EU countries.

      If you ever decide to go to the USA in the future, I’d make sure that you prepare yourself by strengthening your sphincter as your rather ‘exuberant’ comments [which the NS A will have picked up and noted BTW] will more than likely mean you get the old ‘rubber glove treatment’ when you arrive at a US port.

    • avatar

      Its where the EU belongs, in the trash can, along with its political example, the Soviet Union.

  44. avatar

    As usual, those in favor are from the leeching ‘Club Med’ countries or those either occupying or eyeing a plush income-tax-exempt Eurosoviet job.

  45. avatar

    The answer is clearly NO as long as the strcture remains as it is… too much power has been left to non elcted non représentative bodies as the Commission, the ECJ and the Central Bank of Europe. In addition too much powers are left to lobbies and financial organisations. So without first a complete revision of the existing treaties and a complete refoundation of the architecture, there is no real need to give more political power, as for the time being, the political power even beeing present, its influence is close to zero and will remain close to zero unless a serious cleaning of the system is done…

  46. avatar

    Banking union/political union/economic union/military union, and voila a fed.
    All this union stuff is destructive for the people and economies of europe.
    Hey i call on the eurofiles to hold referendums, and stop hiding behind the undemocratic wall theve built for themselves.
    Calling patriotic people whom just happen to like thier own countries , nationalists/populists among other slurs , is cowering behind the fact that brussels/eurogroup,ecb, are real fanatics, a worrysome fact.
    Show europeans that you believe in them and stop pushing the eurofile agenda.
    Give us our day in court, let us decide our future. Hijacking europe and watering down democracy to raid the koffers of the eu countries is ,hum, lets say its not the right and democratic way to achieve eurofile utopia.
    Fed/Nofed referendums are drastically needed, democracy is drastically needed.
    No more euro extreemism, just good and honest politics please.
    Antieuro is blasphemy in the halls of brussels and is dealt with. Can you imagine how far its already gone??

    • avatar
      Limbidis Arian

      Patriotism is a disease of the mind – Albert Einstein.
      Of course now comes your retort that he is a *JEW* and jews are evil and in a conspiracy to destroy Europe like all crazy right-wing nutjobs are.

  47. avatar

    It’s better together than apart, that’s for sure. How and when this will happen, depends on how fast each one of us realises it and stops their own governments from sabotaging the project only because the current situation keeps some more prime ministers in power!! The salary is less as a mayor!

  48. avatar
    Pedro Redondeiro

    Yes obviously!! ;) This is a new era and Europe needs to be prepared for it, the EU should take the next step in becoming a Federation, that is the way! The “nationalism” thing, is a thing of the past, when there was a splited Europe, with individual interests and the desire to make war was stringer than the peoples needs. The NAtionalisms, have only created wars, greed and poverty.
    From now on, Europe needs unification, after all it is already the first ever Economic SuperPower, so we should use this in our favor and take advantage of Europes previleged geografic location, literaly at the center of the world. ;)
    If we do this, Europe will function perfectely internaly, being abble to invest on external relations and in regultions, to make sure inside borders, europe is a very nice and sometimes, a better place to live than anywhere else in the globe! :)

  49. avatar
    Celina Vest

    The basic precondition for this, however, is to be talking with Hamas, that those amongst the Palestinian people who want to talk with Hamas be supported and that they not be forced onto the defensive by a government in Jerusalem that knows only the politics of continuing the settlements. As a side point, if it is true that 163 hectares have now been re-released for settlement, this is a destabilising element and this is something that we need to be absolutely forthright in making clear to our friends in Israel. In the Middle East, everything is interconnected. It is not possible to simply pick out individual elements and believe it possible to solve an individual problem by military means. That is why the basis for everything is the readiness to talk. The Arab League’s plan, Saudi Arabia’s peace plan, envisages an end to violence with simultaneous recognition of Israel’s right to exist. This is a bold and ambitious plan, and it is one that needs to be discussed. It is progress in itself that there are people in the Arab League, in the Arab camp, who are prepared to have that debate. That is something that must be supported. Bombers are not the way to support this, and I might add that the way to support the work of the European Union is likewise not for what we build to be destroyed again for whatever military reasons. For this reason, our message can only be that dialogue is the precondition.

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