UPDATE – 06/02/2018: What’s in a name? The Macedonia name dispute is back in the news, and it looks like the Greek government is edging towards a compromise. Greece and its northern neighbour have both agreed to put more effort into UN-mediated negotiations in order to find a solution this year. The Greek government, led by the leftist SYRIZA party, have suggested a qualifier such as “Northern Macedonia” could be a possible way forward. However, the idea of Athens giving any ground on this issue has sparked significant nationalist protests outside the Hellenic Parliament. How long will the conflict drag on?
UPDATE – 18/12/2015: Macedonia’s prime minister, Nikola Gruevski, has told The Guardian newspaper that he would be open to changing his country’s name, as long as the change was first put to a popular referendum. Relations between Skopje and Athens have improved since the radical left SYRIZA party came to power in Greece, with a Greek foreign minister visiting Skopje earlier this year for the first time in over a decade. Could we finally be about to see meaningful progress on the “name” issue?
ORIGINAL – 01/08/2013: The “name” issue concerns the use of the name “Macedonia” by Macedonia (former Yugoslav Republic of / Republic of), the country bordering northern Greece that was created in the wake of the breakup of Yugoslavia. The Greek government argues that calling this country the “Republic of Macedonia” will leave Greece open to territorial disputes between Skopje and a region of Greece also called Macedonia. In response, Athens has blocked Macedonian (FYRO / RO) membership of NATO and the EU until the dispute is resolved.
But will the dispute ever be resolved? Previous attempts have, so far, been unsuccessful; in 2005, it was suggested that a double-barrelled name (“Republika Makedonija-Skopje”) could be a solution, but this was rejected by Skopje. The next proposal was for different names to be used in different countries, but this was rejected by Athens. Future negotiations will attempt to introduce some “fresh ideas” into a debate that has been going on for years.
What do YOU think? What would it take for the Macedonia name dispute to finally be resolved? Do you think it can be resolved, or will this issue drag on and on? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.
1,085 comments Post a commentcomment
The issue cannot be solved as long as Greece continues to insist that they – and they alone – are entitled to tell another country and another people what they can call themselves. Greece denies the existence of a Macedonian people – in Macedonia, in Greece, anywhere – and thus they deny the right of the Macedonian people to call their country Macedonia. Greece’s argument that Macedonia has eyes on Greek territory is childish, churlish and spurious. Greece knows this to be the case. If Greece is going to continue to receive bailouts and assistance from the planet, it must be conditioned on their changing their position. Macedonia stays Macedonia and Greece can call the country whatever it likes. Greece is wrong to deny Macedonia and the Macedonians existence. Leaders must stand up and say so.
Because it should not be called Macedonia…Only half of FYROM’s territory used to belong to the ancient kingdom of Macedonia…. The rest is just fabrications….
…and people who live in Wanna-be-Macedonia have mainly Slavic and Bulgarian origin, they have nothing in common with the history of Macedonia. Why not pick up a Slavic or Bulgarian name?
Some Greeks also live there but they don’t share the others opinion of stealing name, history and land form other people.
Every argument Ok.Only one remark. Do you recognize that you are slavs and ancient macedonians were greek ? Thats the issue here…
Greece is receiving financial help mostly from EU, not from the planet, and in any case not from you..
Personally, I believe that the solution lies in returning this new statelet morfoma to the peoples it really belongs:
Throughout history, there have been only for nations in the southern Balkans, alphabetically as follows: 1) Albania, 2) Bulgaria 3) Greece, 4) Serbia. Since the European Union can not become an accomplice in any forgery attempts by the government of Skopje, which is why the EU itself, rightly in my view, requires clear positions regarding the name of the newly constructed FYROM state. The same is required by NATO as well.
This new statelet, the FYROM, is consisted more or less by the neighboring ethnic populations: Albanians, mainly Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks. Under normal circumstances the FYROM should be returned to the nations from which it is synthesized.
The so called “Name dispute” will never be solved because the dispute itself means that one country and its people are denied their basic human right of self-determination. No other case in history is noted where one country had reservations towards other country’s name. The root of the problem is some 100 years ago when Macedonia was divided by its neighbors and its land was occupied. Still more then 50% percent of the territory of Macedonia belongs to countries other then the Republic of Macedonia. Here lived and still live people who have identified themselves as Macedonians, their country as Macedonia, and everything else in that regard. Another fact is that Macedonia (this current Republic of Macedonia) existed as a Republic within the Yugoslav federation since the end of the second world war. Since 1945 this country has been named Macedonia (Socialist Republic, Peoples Republic, Federative Republic, etc.) and its people have been known as Macedonians, the language as Macedonian, the culture as Macedonian. Why Greece would have an issue with this name now can only attribute to their fear of the truth. The truth that they expelled more than half a million ethnic Macedonians from Eagan Macedonia (the part now called Macedonia in Greece, it was named the province of Macedonia in 1990 btw.), and forbid the rest to speak the language, confiscated their private land, and for 50 years brainwashed their people that there is no Macedonia, that Macedonia is Greek, that there is no such thing as a Macedonian, etc. Even so, the Republic of Macedonia has only showed friendly neighborly behavior, never showed any territorial pretensions, never denied the Greeks to use the name Macedonia in any context they want. Countries like the USA, Germany, France and the UK have to show support for Macedonia, force the Greeks to accept the fact that there is and will be a country named Macedonia, rightful descendant of what once was Macedonia, enable Macedonia to join the UN as the Republic of Macedonia and forever close this issue. They will also wash their hands, because everything I mentioned above was done while Old Europe was watching silently.
And here starts the propaganda and the misinformation… That is what I am speaking of… 50% of “Macedonia’s” territory belongs to other nations? Hello? Your region’s name was VARDARSKA well until Tito’s regime… He renamed it to “Macedonia” and started propagating and brainwashing the Bulgarian speaking population of the region that they are “Macedonians”… There was never a “Macedonian” ethnic group, the region was inhabited by myriads of nationalities, each with their own distinctive culture…
And for the record, France blocked the UK’s accession in EEC, under the name Great Britain, in objection of “Britain” in the past, as it refers to “Brittany” a French region…. So yes, it did happen before and we have every right to use our veto….
check this out : http://www.macedoniahellenicland.eu/content/view/2875/76/lang,el/
And what about the right for self determination of the Greek Macedonians?
NO SUCH THING AS A GREEK/MACEDONIAN.YOU HAVE MACEDONIANS AND GREEKS.
Can you please explain how ” modern macedonians ” ,your country, are the descendants of ancient macedonians ..
Please explain how ” modern macedonians ” , your country, are the descendants of ancient macedonians..
Fistly lets see the origin and etymology of word “Macedonia”
“Macedonian,” from Greek. Makedones “the Macedonians,” lit. “highlanders” or “the tall ones,” related to makednos “long, tall,” makros “long, large” (see macro-) Etymonline com
– If your “self-determination” puts my country in danger, I will never accept it definitely. Unless you have proofs that you are descendant of ancient Macedonians but unfortunately all elements are against you.
– The part now called Macedonia in Greece, it was always named Macedonia and it was always one of the Greek provinces like in the past it was one of the ancient Greek city-states.
– To put an end to this, why do you claim this name? Can you prove historical continuity with ancient Macedonians? We can prove only similarities among all ancient Greek states INCLUDING MACEDONIA.
The answer is no, it cannot be solved. To solve it Macedonians have to change their identity and polls consistently show that the vast majority are against name change. The Macedonian Government simply does not have a mandate to change the identity of its people. Greece does not fear a “Republic of Macedonia” but fears nascent Macedonian nationalism on its territory. If there is no “Macedonian” identity then there is no Macedonian nationalism. Greece knows that and can not change its positions. So no solution in sight.
Many interesting opinions are expressed regarding this issue.
What i cannot understand is why only Greece is being accused many times in international fora of having expansionistic views against its neighboring countries, while those same neighboring countries (Albania, FYROM, Turkey) have expressed through their leaders and prime-ministers on MANY occassions expansionistic ideas against Greece (e.g. the Great Albania that includes parts of north-west Greece and of course provoked recently even the reaction of Ms. Clinton, the revival ot the Ottoman Empire that includes many greek islands, FYROM that seeks the salvation and freedom of certain ‘Macedonian’ territories that are under the ‘bad’ Greeks…). Borders are already estblished and should not be changed! Not another Kossovo situation with more wars in the Balkans!
What i cannot understand is why only Greece should accept historical facts and no other country in this region. And even worse, those countries in the name of self-determination can even re-write the historical truth. Self-determination does not equally apply for the Greek -speaking people of those territories?
Why should Greece accept this policy of FYROM regarding its name? Why should Greece allow the continuation of nationalistic views against its territories and its people? Why FYROM does not change its political aspirations concerning the name issue just because the people are falsely mislead by propaganda in the Balkans? A propaganda that likewise created the Kossovo misery? Greeks are not the only ones that argue the ‘Macedonian’ policy. Don’t forget the Bulgarians and Romanians as well. Are you telling me that three different nations are wrong and only one has a right that noone can deny? Nations that were established in their territories long-before FYROM?
Why only Greece should respect the international treaties? Why only Greece should respect the rights of those countries? Where in history did those countries respected the rights of Greece? Do not forget the Greek people that resided peacefully with other nationalities in several territories in the Balkans and that were brutally chased away as a result of several wars.
I don’t want to sound nationalistic but i believe that what has happened happened and cannot be changed as to respect only the rights of one nation. Additionally, I don’t understand why they reject and deny their Slavic nature (even their language is more close to the Bulgarian rather than the Greek language) that is equally important and with the same historical heritage as the Greek in the Balkans…
We accept and preserve history, we promote mutual understanding and dialogue, we protect peace!
Ah thanx Debating Europe.. It was about time to bring this up… Was looking forward to that issue.. In my opinion no… It can not be resolved.. For one reason that Europe does not understand the problem and it can not help…. For the second reason is the pure nationalism that is rife in the Balkans (in both sides) and makes it almost impossible to discuss..
Mr Gruevski’s government is another factor, that in fact does anything possible for the detriment of its people and the country’s relations with Greece…
To enlighten you… The issue is not just about the name… If that was the case that would be so easy to resolve… The issue lies in many factors and interests, but also propaganda and past mistakes of all sides involved…
The issue started during the Balkan wars… Until then, there was never a Macedonian nation or language.. The Macedonian nation is fabricated… Macedonia was inhabited by many nationalities, Greeks, Turks, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Jews and Albanians…
The Macedonian question came up with the separation of all of these communities and the redrawing of the borders in the Balkans.. For their own interests, the Bulgarians wanted to control the region. A very rich and strategic region in the Balkans. The Turks also wanted that.. And for some of them the best way to do this, if they could not keep Macedonia under their rule was to have it a separate nation, under their influence…
The Jews of Thessalonica and Macedonia also wanted a separate “Macedonian” state as it would serve their interests.. Their presence in the region dated back centuries, ever since the Spaniards expelled them from Iberia. They had settled and made deep roots and they controlled most financial activity.
Many ultra Orthodox Jews did not even want the creation of Israel where it is today, as they considered Macedonia their new homeland, their new promised land.
Many European powers, notably Austria also did not want Macedonia region to fall either the Greek or Bulgarian rule… They preferred an independent Macedonian state that would be easier to manipulate. They even considered, (the Austrians) to come down from Croatia and take Macedonia for themselves.
So started the Macedonian state propaganda, in order to create a new Macedonian nationality and psyche.. Mainly among the slavic speaking populations, notably the Bulgarians and the Serbs of Macedonia. Later during the Greek civil war, the Greek Communists and most Slavophone Greeks sided with Tito in order to create a communist Northern Greek state, that would encompass the region of Macedonia plus Thrace..
They lost the war to the Nationalists that had the support of Britain and most communist and slavophones Greeks were forced to be expelled from Greece and their walth confiscated by the Greek state. That is how a large Greek diaspora in former USSR states and Eastern Europe was established, including that of what is today FYROM.. There is a Greek minority in FYROM still, that derives from that black page of our history.
Most of them were recently allowed to return and they were pardoned and helped to re-establish themselves back in Greece from Russia and many ex-Soviet states.. All but the ones from FYROM, exactly because of the propagandistic attitude they have against Greece…
There was never a Macedonian nation.. Ancient Maceconians were a Greek tribe that are gone now.. Their heritage and legacy remains with Greece..End of story… The Greeks were first united under the rule of Alexander the Great, and the GREEK language, culture and heritage was spread from the Greek lands to India…Thus starting the HELLENISTIC period of history not the “Macedonian”…
Anyone who has visited the northern region of Greece, and the ancient Greek Macedonian sites of Aeges, Pella, Vergina, Philippoi and Thessaloniki will realize that.
What FYROM wants is to continue the propaganda that was imposed on them during the Tito era and keep living in this fantasy. There is no “Macedonian” language, they clearly speak Bulgarian.. There are far more differences between Mainland Greek and Cypriot Greek than Bulgarian and Fyrom Bulgarian, yet the Cypriots admit that they speak Greek… Why FYROMIANs insist in believing that their language is distinct?
Plus they believe that there were never Greeks in Macedonia.. Wrong.. There were always Greek Macedonians.. My mother’s family is Greek Macedonian from the Epanomi town of Thessaloniki county..
They are indigenous to the region and they have as many rights to keep and safeguard their traditions as any other peoples of the region… Today there are Greek Macedonians, Slavomacedonians (FYROM) Albanian Macedonians and Bulgaria Macedonians … Macedonia should be a region of Europe, not a nation or an ethnic group…Today Macedonia has many nationalities not just one, and all of them have the right to be called as such…
But the legacy and heritage of the Ancient Macedonians remain clearly with Greece…
There is also the issue of land. FYROM claims that Greece “conquered” the region of Macedonia and committed genocide against them.. Wrong… There were Greek populations in Macedonia as far up as todays Plodiv in Bulgaria and Gevgelija and Monaster in FYROM.. There was a war, the land was divided, populations were exchanged.. Was this the right way or the wrong, it happened and I wish it hadn’t but it did… End of story… Borders won’t change again in the Balkans..
Many FYROM fanatics still consider Thessaloniki as their capital and they want to take their land back… With such attitudes, why should I seat around a table and discuss with them? Many of them are the descendants of those Greek Communists and Slavophones that were expelled after the civil war and they want compensation or their lands back… Why must we go through this again in the Balkans…?
My dad’s family came from Izmir, they were also expelled and they lost all their property and wealth.. Should I go and demand my ancestral land back again? Rubbish…
There is still a Slavophone minority of a 2-3 thousand individuals in Florina in the Greek part of Macedonia.. That is all is left from the Slavic speaking population in Greece… Most of them consider themselves Greek.. Some of them not.. They are free to have their own political party and on each elections they get around 2-3 thousand votes..That’s it…
In my opinion the only way to solve this would be ( and I am one of the moderate Greeks here, most do not even want to have any term “Macedonia” into FYROM’s name, simply they do not trust them) the name of Slavomacedonia.. That is what we call them in Greece… That translates as Macedonians of slavic descent… And if there is objection then I would accept something like “Northern Macedonia” provided of course they drop all the nonsense of them being the only true descendants of Alexander the Great, building statues of him and Philipp in their capital, naming their air-port after Alexander and drop any land claim, propaganda and bigotry against Greece at once…
And not just Greece but Bulgaria as well, since lately they went overboard and they started claiming their Czar Samuel as theirs well and put up his statue up in Skopje together with Alexander… Instead of trying to steal other nation’s heritage, better focus to promote your own.. Bulgaria therefore joined Greece in blocking FYROM’s EU accession..
If we are going to accept FYROM in EU and NATO, a move that I personally wholeheartedly support, as it would benefit the whole region I can not tolerate such attitudes towards my country or any other country of EU… I want them in, they belong in Europe, but as a Greek Macedonian I also want to promote and safeguard my heritage as well… Sorry…
Fully agree
I couldn’t agree more. My great-grandfather fought in the Macedonian war in 1904. This violent struggle over historic Macedonia in the early 20th century was a conflict between two ethnicities, the Greeks and the Bulgarians. The Bulgarians wanted to claim northern Greece and expand their territory for a Greater Bulgaria. Back then, there was no such thing as ‘Macedonian’ ethnicity. That was constructed in the aftermath of World War II by communist leader Tito (who acted on the advice of Stalin) to rule over a multi-ethnic area (which included Albanians, Slavs, Bulgarians and Greeks) in the Balkans. His goal, backed by the Kremlin, was to annex areas of Greece and expand his communist superstate of Yugoslavia. So cunning was he that he had historiographers construct a warped view of the past that suited his territorial ambitions, he even went so far to devise a language called ‘Macedonian’ – but truth be told, the language spoken in that region today bares all the signs of an offshoot of Bulgarian. Tito’s megalomanic aspirations are evidenced by maps he had created depicting a “united Macedonia” which included areas of Greek Macedonia in Thessaloniki and parts of Bulgaria, ancient Illyria and Thrace.
The area known today officially as FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) comprises Albanian, Bulgarians, Serbians and Greeks. The capital Skopje is located in the former Vardar Province which does NOT lie within the land that actually belonged to Phillip of Macedon. No matter how many statues are erected or flags are waved, you cannot change the fact that the capital now lies in a realm outside historic Macedonia.
So, what’s in a name? The word Macedonian is a Greek word (of the ancient Koine dialect) meaning ‘highlander’. To those that deny that Macedonia was a Greek city state, then why did Alexander the Great choose to worship the Greek Gods? Why did his legions leave behind items of cultural heritage found from Egypt to the Hindus Valley baring Ancient Greek inscriptions? It is no coincidence that the symbol of the Vergina Sun – that Greece’s northern neighbour cheekily attempted to use on their flag in the 1990s, but were forced to change – had propped up not only on relics found in the area of historic Macedonia (northern Greece and lower FYROM) but also throughout mainland Greece including Athens and the Peloponnese.
To argue that the Macedonians are separate ethnic group today is as absurd as saying the Athenians are a separate race to those native to Peloponnese, Thessaloniki or the Crete. It is especially ridiculous when you consider that people of Slavic descent that inhabit the FYROM region now actually settled there 1000 years after the death of Alexander the Great. But why is it they won’t acknowledge their own tribal past? Is it not as glorious as the legacy left behind by Hellenism?
To those that think on simple terms, and ask “what’s in a name?” – Think not on face value but the deeper implications it brings to allow a neighbour to use your name. The theft of cultural heritage and the threat of territorial expansion based on misinformation.
MACEDONIA IS (and always will be) GREEK.
Europeans do not know the Greeks at all… To them we are only one ethnic group, while Ancient Greece is only Athens, Sparta, Corinth and Thebes..
To us Ancient Greece is also Thessaly, Epirus and Macedonia…
And today while we are all Greeks, we also have our distinctive heritage, culture, music, dresses, food and drinks in each region.. There are Greeks of Macedonia that they have their own culture. Of Thrace, of Epirus, of Thessaly, of Peoloponese, of Crete, of the Ionian Island, of the Cyclades, the Pontic Greeks, he Eastern Thrace Greeks, the Asia Minor Greeks.. All of them one nation but also slightly different, just as a Bavarian is a German like a Schwebish man, but also have their own heritage…
And I am here to represent and defend my maternal heritage that is Greek Macedonian… We exist too… Respect us too… Hear us….
Hi richard, just like to say, love you mate.
I’m a macedonian living in Australia, my great great grandfather left macedonia in the early 1920’s and lived in south america for 40 years. After 40 years of working as a labourer he came back to macedonia, I was named after him, (he died shortly after building houses four his 7 children in bitola) then in 1966 just before i was born, my father looking for a better life after ww2 and the so called greek war in 1947 and 1948,(the killing of macedonians in the macedonian region of greece) my father arrived in australia and worked hard, my mother and i arrived 3 months after my birth, my family got bigger and bigger as the years went by, now my family has grown to over 300, (my fathers and mothers side) but i have been back, in macedonia a few times and i love my country, my wife’s family lives there, and i still have family all over macedonia,(this includes greece, albania, bulgaria, serbia) in the last 10 years i’ve been back 6 times, and i’m going again this year, but anyway thats enough of me,
what i want to do is to help you better understand what is and who is a macedonian, firstly i’m a very proud macedonian who loves all walks of life, and believes in peace and justice, self identification, i thought that all eu countries believe in these humam fundemental rights for all, I forgot, (except if you are a macedonian).IJC ruling, Macedonia Won yes they Won, what i want to know is why isn’t this enough, please can you explain to all your fellow members and readers why is the icj’s rullings not carried out by the eu, nato and any other organization that uses the prfix fyrom, if i killed someone or something, i would go to court, then the court will rule, if i’m guilty then i will go to jail, or pay a fine, then i will be told not to do it again, isn’t it the same in the eu. so why is it that macedonia is still waiting, arn’t we human, why would i say i’m macedonian, if i was something else, my forfathers spoke macedonian, kiril and methodia spoke macedonian, the saits, they lived in solun, (todays thesaloniki) and they spread religion and today’s current alfabet used by europeans today, these inculed macedonia, russia, bulgaria, serbia and the list goes on. the saits spoke macedonian, my point is that the greeks are saying we, the macedonians, invented ourselfs recently, in athens before it became a republic the people spoke albanian and turkish, (1830’s) then in 1912 after the balkan wars the then international organizations then divided macedonia between greece 51 percent, yugoslavia 38 percent, bulgaria 10 percent and albania the rest, if macedonians are greeks or bulgarians then why not give them the whole of macedonia, but instead you partition Macedonia, why. i don’t understand, i studied in australia and was always told that every human has the right to self identification, so please tell me were did the eu and the un or nato go wrong, why is it that you can say what you are. but if you are a macedonian then you are former something or you a fyrom. why why should anyone take this abuse, from anyone else, if you tell me you are a pom (sorry richard aussie name for englishmen) then you are a pom then the only criteria is that you are born in england or come from english parents or parent. so the macedonians must be macedonians because they live in macedonia, a partisioned macedonia. so enough is enough, lets just move on please, we macedonians love everyone even the greeks. please eu and un stop this unjust political blackmail of macedonia, please understand we the macedonians want justice for all, and all for one, please once again.
The partition of Macedonia happened after the Balkan wars… because each population wanted to have a part of it… there was a war, Greece won most of it… It is history..There were Greeks living in Macedonia since the ancient times and they are of course the original inhabitants of the land… Kyril and Methodios were Greek and they spoke Greek.. They INVENTED the Kyrillic alphabet to try to Christianize the slavic populations in the Balkans and eastern Europe, for political reasons… There were not “Macedonian”….
here.. have a look at this…: http://youtu.be/mIRe5tnqRKM
Please open an international encyclopedia and read about ancient macedonian state, Alexander the Great, cyrilic alphabet, greek civil war,etc . May be you will better understand how mistaken are your positions.. In my opinion you can call yourselves macedonians or any other name you want, but in no case you are entitled to steal another people history..
Mr peter whte, you say about a supposed “killing of macedonians in the macedonian region of greece”.
It would be nice if you check about that Greek war around 1948, to see that it was a war between the right-wing government and the communists.
Of course some of the communists who made the war, crossed the borders to go to communist countries and not be arrested. One of them was the grand father of prime minister Nikola Gruevski!
It will be interesting if he explains about the change of his name one day, his grandfather’s name had not the ending -vski.
The only non-Greeks who left the country back then, were allies of Nazis and this is why they did it, to avoid punishment.
Plus, during Nazi’s occupation, these traitors tried to make Greeks declare that they are not Greeks, to force them learning Bulgarian language (suspiciously similar to yours) and to dismiss everyone who protested, away.
So people who left whether were traitors or opposed the right-wing government by war. If you insist they were “your people”, you can pick up on of these 2 groups.
eu estou quase a chegar ao problema da europa
It cannot be resolved. FYROM is Yugoslavia. Macedonia is part of Greece. Everyone knows this, so i don’t understand how it can ever be resolved unless FYROM embraces its true identity.
?????????? ????????, ???? ??? ?? ? ???????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????!
As questes da identidade…
Macedonia is not part of Greece..Free Macedonia and free Moravia(under occupation of Czech Republic)
Ancient Macedonians spoke ancient Greek language, believed in ancient Greeks Gods, had ancient Greek customs. Same with clothing, architecture etc, so why not Greece?
Anyway if you don’t believe me, at least believe Alexander the Great and what he writes to his latter to Darius III.
He refers to Macedonia as a part of Greece.
The letter can be easily crosschecked on the web.
“Your ancestors invaded Macedon and the rest of Greece and did us harm although we had not done you any previous injury. I have been appointed commander-in-chief of the Greeks and it is with the aim of punishing the Persians that I have crossed into Asia, since you are the aggressors. You gave support to the people of Perinthus, who had done to the Greeks about me, to push them to war against me, and sent money to the Spartans and some other Greeks, which none of the other cities would accept apart from the Spartans. Your envoys corrupted my friends and sought to destroy the peace, which I established among the Greeks.”
It cannot be resolved. FYROM is Yugoslavia. Macedonia is part of Greece. Everyone knows this, so i don’t understand how it can ever be resolved unless FYROM embraces its true identity.
I am very impressed by the title of your article. How to debate when there is a position already taken by the “moderator”?
I hope I will not repeat anything anyone has said above. I regret not having enough time to read through all the posts. To get started on this topic I would like to bring up a very important precedent that already exists in Europe and the EU. The situation is between Belgium and Luxemburg. Why this example? The similarity is that in Belgium, at the borders with the Great Duchy of Luxemburg, there is also a region within the country that is called identically Luxemburg. It is spelled the same way and most probably also based on a historical context and the vivid history in the region, where borders and rulers were changing quite frequently. There is no dispute between these two countries that I, a Slovakian living in Brussels, know of. Therefore, I believe it is a problem that apparently could be tackled using this example. The dispute between Macedonia and Greece are almost identical. There is Macedonia the country (FYROM-according to current treaties and agreements) and then there is Macedonia within Greece, which is a regional structure just like Luxemburg in the case of Belgium. If Luxemburg and Luxemburg in Belgium can be beside each other then why couldn’t Macedonia and Macedonia within Greece do the same? :) I hope I’ve convinced you!
I am very impressed by the title of the article. How to debate when in this article there is a position already taken by the “moderator”? There is tremendous confusion on what this issue really is and the media should be very carefull on it. Those who have studied seriously history and sources laugh when thet learn that huge Alexander the Great statues start to appear all over Skopje. And the issue is moslty about falsification of history. Then, if you want to create the agony of the so called “macedonian the man with no name of his land” it is another story, and it is a media story related to a specific mass propaganda.
Luxembourgians had a referendum to decide if they wanted to join Belgium or they wanted to be part of the Grand Duchy… most of them decided the latest… it is not the same… Macedonia has not one ethnic group… it can not be a referendum… Greek Macedonians always wanted unification with Greece… end of story….
they do not want just the name… they want the history as well…. just have a look at the propaganda they spur in here…. if it was only for the name, what you mention would do it… easy…. and i would agree with you…. but it is not about the name…. that is the problem….
Stavroula, the dispute concerns the name “Macedonia” and its use. Writing the word “Macedonia” does not, in itself, indicate a position.
The name issue can easily be resolved, provided that the FYROM changes its attitude towards its neighbouring countries, as well as the huge community of ethnic Albanians living in the FYROM, and accepts its true identity.
One has to really wonder, how come Kiro Gligorov’s statement that the FYROM is consisted of Slavs, who arrived in the area in the 7th century AD, ended up in Gruevski’s ancient Macedonism and the “Macedonoid” tribe!
Self-determination is one thing, stealing Bulgaria’s and Greece’s history and national heroes is another.. and definitely not the way to solve the issue.
thanks for the precision but with the flag of the specific state related to it, don’t you think that it can lead to misunderstandings?
FYROM’s population constitutes only a 25% minority in the Macedonian region. This minority cannot and shouldnt impose to the other 3 quarters that they should give up their Macedonian cultural identity by monopolising the terms “Macedonia/Macedonian” for international use.
Over 3.5 million people worldwide with a Greek national identity and a Macedonian cultural identity, have a right to self-determination and preservation of their historic cultural identity.
In essense if their northern Slavic neighbours from FYROM monopolise the terms “Macedonia/Macedonian” for international use, these 3.5 million Macedonians with a Greek national identity are the ones who are being denied one of their basic human rights.
To be a descendant of Alexander the Great and not be able to read the inscriptions in the tomp of his father Phillip II in Vergina is intriguing.
American scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity have provided founded evidence on the matter.
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
This is an issue of pressure and geopolitical interests, quite irrelevant to the revisionism of history presented.
Is Europe debating the historical truth or simply projecting underlying interests?
Personally I believe in the right to self determination and the right of self identification seems to have a strong correlation with this principle. It seems such a petty argument and runs counter to the belief in national sovereignty and the idea that we can allow a country can be held hostage like this because one country (an EU member) doesn’t like the others name is quite remarkable and strikes me as childish.
The Republic of Macedonia should be allowed to call itself whatever it likes and that should be the official end of it. And in much the same way that I say Germans are from ‘Germany’ and not Deutchland so too can the Greeks carry on calling Macedonia FYROM if they’re that desperate too.
Oh and the notion that somehow accepting the Republic of Macedonia will lead to territorial disputes is clearly laughable. In the real world the country is called the Republic of Macedonia already.
Is it really? Well, this picture of Gruevski states otherwise. http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9575/gruevski3tu9.jpg
We don’t expect our fellow Europeans to be as aware as we are about how irredentist our neighbours are, but when PM Gruevski pays tribute under a map which includes Greek Macedonia and part of Bulgaria (the so called “United Macedonia”), then I think one should me more careful than to call the issue “childish”.
Luckily we don’t live in the ’40s anymore, they are not going to invade no matter how menacing their mighty army may look… It is just a name, if they wanted to call their country the Hellenic Republic of Greece then you might have a real case, but as it stands this is nothing.
I beg to differ, since Macedonia IS a hellenic region. Do you seriously believe that they are descendants of the ancient Macedonians, as they falsely claim to be, or are you with the historical fact that they are of slavic origin? It doesn’t require much, a basic historical knowledge is adequate.
And for god’s sake, do watch this video and tell me if they are in their right mind. A Macedonoid race from which the white race emerged???
This video was shown on national FYROM TV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMMoQREj-6A
of course (i hope that) everyone understand that the problem is not just the use of the name but the perception related to it some details: the statues of Alexander the Great in the heart of Skopje, the “elaboreated history books” banned by the scientific community etc etc….there is an issue of historical truth here, not an issue of nationalism from the one or the other side.
EU has recognized the state under its official name “FYROM”. The only part of Europe which is recognized under the name Macedonia is the northern periphery of Greece. The question posted creates misunderstandings since the name dispute (which the newly state of FYROM created in 1992) has not been resolved yet.
Well the only country that has a problem with this name is Greece. Many Greek people I knoa seem to be happy with something along the lines of Slavic Macedonia. The Macedonians should also make a bit of a compromise amd settle for that.
Well the only country that has a problem with this name is Greece. Many Greek people I knoa seem to be happy with something along the lines of Slavic Macedonia. The Macedonians should also make a bit of a compromise amd settle for that.
The dispute can only end if the ”big guys”,like U.S and even European leaderships stop inciting intrigues between balkan nations ! Because the problem does not lie only in the name dispute as Fyrom also claims parts of the Bulgarian history too and the Bulgarians claim that there is no Fyrom and the lands should be rightfully theirs,so do the Albanians and so on and so forth. Balkans have a very precious geostratigical and geopolitical importance and every nation in the area should take advantage of it and in a peaceful and cooperating manner , prosper and limit the poverty that desolate the people nowadays! Apart from all of that if the ‘strong’ countries wanted the name dispute to end they would have done so long ago and they would stop fostering nationalism ,which they reprobate to keep the nations apart
Because we are talking about our name and history man! What would you say if Fyrom claimed Plovdiv and Sofia and your history?
Yes, this issue will be solved. It might take longer than EU member states would like, but there will be a common agreement in the future for sure. EU will keep expanding after this crisis and the Balkan region is the most likely to join in.
Not willing to extend myself too much, I would like to start by sharing that Romania has a county called Moldova which is, in fact, neighboring the country Moldova. Everyone is fine with it (I traveled myself in both parts and brought that topic up in many discussion with young locals) and one just says “the Republic of Moldova” when referring to the country to make the distinction. So, the name Macedonia, by itself, is not an issue. It’s lame to say so.
The thing is, similarly to other, unfortunately more destructive, international issues, that people tend to justify the past to make decisions for the future (the threat in this page represents it pretty well). The past does shapes the present, but it’s looking ahead that current decisions will bring a prosper future.
“calling this country the “Republic of Macedonia” will leave Greece open to territorial disputes between Skopje and a region of Greece also called Macedonia”?! As if EU didn’t have experience in implementing treaties to set such things clear for different parts. Well, this is assuming there would be any kind of “disputes”, which I don’t think there would be though.
It’s a matter of stubborn individuals, people who were given the power to decide for others, realize that well-being of citizens is only achieved by thinking forward and positively in cooperation with others surrounding and overseas.
I will repeat… Moldovans do not claim Romanian history as their own… That is the issue… The problem is not the name… We already call them Slavo-Macedonians in Greece… But if we allow them to use the name without any guarrantees that they will stop their propaganda against Greece’s history, the day will come to join the euro and tbey will start minting euro coins with the head of Alexander or Philip it is the day that I will commit murder or suicide….. They have no right to do that…. Ancient Macedonia’s heritage stays with its people in Greece…..
dora spiridis i bet u haven’t been to greece. change our attitude towards our neighbouring countries, and ethnic albanians living in macedonia. 99% of greeks living in greece r greek yeah right. How about u change your attitude
Ι live in Greece, and Greek attitude is not the problem. We are not the hostile ones in this case. Please don’t start with the lame “Greeks are not Greeks”, it’s so boring and groundless.
Isn’t it true that Kiro Gligorov stated that you people are Slavs and have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsMvSX3EufM
Isn’t it true that your ultra-nationalist PM Gruevski paid tribute under a map of “United Macedonia”?
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9575/gruevski3tu9.jpg
It’s definitely not our atttitude that needs changing.
http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Bulgarian_dialect_map-yus.png
No way the name dispute will be resolved , not with FYROM’s nationalism and hatred toward it’s neighbors. This country is not a European country.
Then in this case they (FYROM’s government and citizens) should let aside that disgusting propaganda against Bulgaria and focus on their real problems.
I’ve been to FYROM many times and i experienced their hatred and racism against Bulgarians in first hand. They call us “Tatars”, “Turks”, “negroids”, “gypsies” and “sub-humans”. They also vandalize our cars with racist graffitis
@Ivan Botoucharov what about your country’s (Bulgaria) stance on the issue? Could you elaborate on that please?
Since Greek Macedonia, Bulgarian Macedonia and FYR of Macedonia are all parts of the historical region Macedonia, why not just name them South-, East- and North-Macedonia? Macedonia isn’t the only European region that’s devided between different countries nowadays: Tirol (Austria) and South-Tirol (Italy), Dutch East-Limburg and Belgian West-Limburg, GD Luxembourg and Belgian Luxembourg, Ireland and North-Ireland,…
Valid thought but although FYROM constitutes a small part of the Macedonian Region scandalously wants to monopolize the name “Macedonia”.
Hence FYROM does not wish to have any geographical identifier in their Name as Greece rationally proposed and Bulgaria accepts. Realistically FYROM’s population which constitutes only a 25% minority in the Macedonian region. wants to impose to the other 3 quarters they will call themselves “Macedonians” and the others wont.
To make it easier to comprehend. For the 3.5 million people worldwide with a Greek national identity and a Macedonian cultural identity if their northern neighbours monopolise the terms “Macedonia/Macedonian” for international use, in practice they are being denied one of their basic rights. Their right to self-determination and preservation of their historic cultural identity.
In that sense, the term “Greek Macedonian” is problematic because it implies mixed ethnic background (another example: “my German Italian friend“).
There is no reason why a majority of 3.5 million people with continuous presence in the area, should give up their cultural identity, in favour of a newly emerged nation whose folk heroes described themselves as Bulgarians.
East Macedonia still exists as a region , not as a country! I don’t recall Bulgarians distorting history and claiming that Alexander Is not Greek and other ridiculous claims!
No disrespect intended to either side, but this has to be one of the craziest diplomatic rows in the entire world. Both countries have signed a treaty affirming no territorial claims on the other. At this point, the rest should be the easy part, but it is the most difficult.
The Macedonians in Skopje, particularly the right wing ruling party, is not comfortable with the country’s true past, namely that the Republic of Macedonia is a territorially defined nation which was left over from a Yugoslav federation that no longer exists. So they appropriate imagery from a Bulgarian uprising in the Ottoman Villayet of Macedonia and more recently claim successorship to Alexander the Great, who has about as much to do with Slavs as with the Japanese, all in an effort to make that country an independent political construct of Yugoslavia, just like Marshall Tito in World War 2 constructed the idea of a Macedonia as a Yugoslav federal unit in order to motivate the locals to resist Bulgarian rule — they were less ethusiastic to fight for the right to be southern Serbs. But those Macedonians are a majority Slavic nation speaking a Slavic language who arrived roughly a millennium after Alexander’s death.
On the other hand, the Greeks insist on defining Macedonia the way it was defined 2400 years ago, and seemingly nothing that happened since then is allowed to matter. The Romans merged the territory of Macedon with Paeonia (A Thracian thribe and polity) and part of present day Albania and referred to that as their “Macedonian province”. The Byzantines (also Greeks) redefined their Macedonian province to only include eastern Thrace and not much else when they didn’t control anything due to conquest from the Ottomans, and in turn the Ottomans later redefined the “Villayet” of Macedonia to include the area which includes present day FYROM, Greek Macedonia and part of western Bulgaria, which had a sizeable Slavic population. Other Slavic polities existed there as well. So I think somewhere in the past 1500 years, Macedonia became synonymous not only with Greek, but also other ethnic groups who resided in that territory, which would make FYRO Macedonia something of an exception in Europe but fairly common in the Western Hemisphere – a nation whose name is derived by the territory it occupies, not by the dominant ethnic group in it.
Still, naming the airport in Skopje, or the country’s biggest highway “Alexander the Great” or their newest hospitals and biggest stadium “Phillip II” is historically inaccurate. The government in Skopje needs to understand, just like the social democratic one in the 1990s did, that using Alexander and Phillip and their successors’ symbols is neither acceptable, nor historically accurate. However, the Greeks also need to understand that Macedonia as a concept has been expanded since Alexander died 2300+ years ago and that Greece doesn’t have a monopoly on the territory’s history.
The US has recognized Skopje under the name of Republic of Macedonia. Greece needs to understand that this will never change, and it is a big deal politically. And Macedonians need to have someone explain to them that expropriating Hellenistic symbols is ridiculous. I mean I was born in Belgrade, which was the Roman city of Singidunum in the province of Moesia. You don’t see us naming the airport “Gaius Julius Ceasar” and using the Roman eagle for our national coat of arms? You don’t hear us claim that Constantine the Great was a Serb because he was born in Naissus (present day Nis). So everybody just needs to take a step back and be adult about this dispute. And because I know these two countries will never go to war over this issue, I allow myself to find it funny.
US has recognized Skopje under the name of Republic of Macedonia because FYRomians betray their Serbian brothers at Kosovo war. FYROM was NATO base. They also recognized it, and they had their present
I think Jovan’s comment wins ‘best in show’ on this occasion. Seems like the most rational approach. Also as a side note, I love Belgrade. Both for the history and Beograd’s night life ;)
Mattijs, I believe Skopje rejected the solution of being called Northern Macedonia. And why are there two threads about this?
It’s a pitty they rejected it… If the Greek were willingly to recognise them as Northern Macedonia, it’s stupid they didn’t accept the offer.
They probably did it because the US recognized them as “Macedonia.” I am sure they feel like with the Greeks losing clout in European affairs and unable to singlehandedly block them for much longer, time is on their side. nd they may be right. But their EU candidacy has been on ice since 2004 because of this issue. newborns when Macedonia applied are now in fourth grade, and they are no closer to accession. I hope none of the Greeks get mad at me because I am about to steal an expression from them, but the Skopje government may end up scoring a “Pyrrhic victory” LOL
Mister Kassios, as a history student, I’ve experienced that historical research is almost always somehow influenced by the historian’s own opinion (which is quite logical). The letter to Obama is a good example : what they say about the history is true, but they leave out some other historical facts. Thereby it’s not nuanced. I really recommend you to read mister Ivosevic’ reaction, since it’s much more refined.
VARDARSKA is the one and only TRUE name of F.Y.R.O.M. VARDASKA is what was recognized internationally till 1945, before Tito’s schizophrenia took hold of all the Vardarski. The Vardarski have absolutely no relation to the Macedonians which are Greek from the ancient days till today.
VARDARSKA is the one and only TRUE name of F.Y.R.O.M. VARDARSKA is what was recognized internationally till 1945, before Tito’s schizophrenia took hold of all the Vardarski, baptising the Vaqrdarski as Macedonians. The Vardarski have absolutely no relation what-so-ever to the Macedonians which are Greek from the ancient days till today. And the Vardarski know it.
Maro, when was that area referred to as “Vardarska”? From 1929 to 1941 when it was proclaimed by a King who disbanded a democratically elected Parliament? And in addition the Vardarska Banovina under Yugoslavia included parts of present day Southern Serbia. So I am not sure that is any more of a historical or a legitimate name.
The Fyrom government ,in my opinion,understands that the name issue and their claimings can’t go any further but if they stand back now that the people of Fyrom and even the diaspora have been so fanaticised(?) with their new ancestry, that will mean the collapse of their government. So they will fight to the end, until and if the Greek foreign policy puts an end to that
The ancestors of the Vardarski are the Antes which migrated into the Balkans from north of the Danube in the 6th century AD, raiding the Byzantine Empire from the 520s onwards, on an annual basis. They spread about destruction, taking loot and herds of cattle, seizing prisoners and taking fortresses. Often, the Byzantine Empire was stretched defending its rich Asian provinces. This meant that even numerically small, disorganised early Antes and Sklavenoi raids were capable of causing much disruption, but could not capture the larger, fortified cities. Florin Curta – a 6th-century Byzantine chronicler, states that the Vardarski ‘homeland’ was north of the Danube and not in the Belorussian-Ukrainian borderlands. As Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that Sklavenoithe settled the western Balkans, becoming one of the forerunners of the linguistic group that became the Bosnians, Serbs and Croats, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern and southern regions (roughly speaking), becoming one of the ancestors of the Bulgarians and the Vardarski.
@Stavrula: everybody has the right to take a position
Maro, I still don’t understand the parallel. Are you saying that because the Slavic tribes invaded the territory known as Macedonia centuries ago, they don’t have a right to use its name? In the 7th century, a Germanic tribe called the Lombards took over the Romanized settlements of the Po River valley. For a good two hundred years, they referred to themselves as Lobards and their country as Lombardia. Should we tell them that after 13 centuries of being there, they have no right to call themselves Italians?
Since they have absolutely nothing to do with the greeks what so ever, and therefore Makedonia – the southern greek territory, why dont they call themselves something more fashionable like Former Yugoslavian Republic of Austria, Germany or even San Fransisco! For those familiar with basic historic evidence this case is simply a joke…
Jovan, the problem is that the VARDARSKI have absolutely NO RELATION to the Ancient Macedonians which are a Greek tribe. And yet the VARDARSKI today continue the Tito schizophrenia and claim that they are the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians, which is simply not the case.
@jovan: look, Skopje region has nothing to do wioth Macedonia. This region has never been Macedonia
The unprecedented massiv brainwashing about the ancestry of a whole country to be the direct descendants of the Greek Philipp and Alexander the Greatest, strongly refers to very powerful international centers with political, economical, cultural, even religious motives
Jovan you are absolutelly right in all apart one thing… The Greeks recognise that they are noth the only Macedonians anymore… We only want to safeguard the heritage of our people… We could share a name in some sort… Never the history and the heritage though……
George, maybe they don’t call themselves the Former Yugoslav Republic of Austria or San Francisco because they didn’t settle in Austria or San Francisco 1400 years ago.
And you Maro and George Vakos should remember that “Macedonia” during Roman times geographically included Present day FYROM (Peaonia) and a part of Albania, as did the Ottoman villayet of Macedonia, We can’t freeze the boundaries of the country or region we like the period of history we prefer. If that were so, then as a Serb I choose to define Serbia’s borders in the 1350s. So I will be expecting both Skopje and Greece north of Peloponnesia to be handed over without any further delay. Afraid it doesn’t quite work like that.
Christos, and if Greece took that position I would back them 100%. They have every right to insist that the Skopje authorities not use Hellenistic cultural iconography. But then there should be no issue as to the name, only about naming things after Alexander and Phillip, the Vergina Sun etc.
Jovan, the Tito schizophrenia Syndrome imposed on the Vardarski populace continues to this very day. The Vardarski have named their international airport in Skopje – “ALEXANDER THE GREAT”. But as has been clearly shown earlier and you acknowledge, these VARDARSKI have absolutely no ethnic relation what-so-ever to ALEXANDER THE GREAT. The ancestors of the Vardarski – the ANTES- came from north of the Danube into the Balkans from 520AD onwards.It was King Phillip II (Alexanders father) who first organised the Greek crusade against the Persian Empire. Before Alexander the Great went into battle against the Persian Empire , Alexander held a festival in honour of the Muses at Dium in Macedonia ( at the foot of Mt Olympus – home of the ancient Greek gods)- this lasted for 9 days, with one day dedicated to each Muses. They are the daughters of the ancient Greek god Zeus and Mnemosyne. They are known for the music of their song, which brings joy to any who hear it. There are nine Muses, each with her own specialty: Clio (History), Urania (Astronmy), Melpomene (Tragedy), Thalia (Comedy), Terpsichore (Dance), Calliope (Epic Poetry), Erato (Love Poetry), Polyhymnia (Songs to the Gods), Euterpe (Lyric Poetry).
Jovan, settling next to a great civilization does not give you the right to steal its history. End of story.
Many interesting opinions are expressed regarding this issue.
What i cannot understand is why only Greece is being accused many times in international fora of having expansionistic views against its neighboring countries, while those same neighboring countries (Albania, FYROM, Turkey) have expressed through their leaders and prime-ministers on MANY occassions expansionistic ideas against Greece (e.g. the Great Albania that includes parts of north-west Greece and of course provoked recently even the reaction of Ms. Clinton, the revival ot the Ottoman Empire that includes many greek islands, FYROM that seeks the salvation and freedom of certain ‘Macedonian’ territories that are under the ‘bad’ Greeks…). Borders are already estblished and should not be changed! Not another Kossovo situation with more wars in the Balkans!
What i cannot understand is why only Greece should accept historical facts and no other country in this region. And even worse, those countries in the name of self-determination can even re-write the historical truth. Self-determination does not equally apply for the Greek -speaking people of those territories?
Why should Greece accept this policy of FYROM regarding its name? Why should Greece allow the continuation of nationalistic views against its territories and its people? Why FYROM does not change its political aspirations concerning the name issue just because the people are falsely mislead by propaganda in the Balkans? A propaganda that likewise created the Kossovo misery? Greeks are not the only ones that argue the ‘Macedonian’ policy. Don’t forget the Bulgarians and Romanians as well. Are you telling me that three different nations are wrong and only one has a right that noone can deny? Nations that were established in their territories long-before FYROM?
Why only Greece should respect the international treaties? Why only Greece should respect the rights of those countries? Where in history did those countries respected the rights of Greece? Do not forget the Greek people that resided peacefully with other nationalities in several territories in the Balkans and that were brutally chased away as a result of several wars.
I don’t want to sound nationalistic but i believe that what has happened happened and cannot be changed as to respect only the rights of one nation. Additionally, I don’t understand why they reject and deny their Slavic nature (even their language is more close to the Bulgarian rather than the Greek language) that is equally important and with the same historical heritage as the Greek in the Balkans…
We accept and preserve history, we promote mutual understanding and dialogue, we protect peace!
Some people here seem to think that because the Slavonic Macedonians are no heirs to Alexander the Great (About which we reached a consensus, I think), that they shouldn’t use the name Macedonia (or a similar one like Slavonic Macedonia, Northern Macedonia,…). However, like mr. Ivosevic argued, they live in a part of the historical region Macedonia like it existed during the Roman, Byzanthine and Ottoman periods. It’s not because the FYR of Macedonia unrightfully claims Alex the Great, that their claim of the name Macedonia is unrightful as well.
@Jovan: look my friend, the Skopians do not claim they are Turks or Romans, they claim instead they are descedants of Alexander the Great. Again: Skopia region has never been in history Alexander s region, and it is a prooven fact. Alexander s regions have been many others in the whole world like Alexandria in Egypt, like Bagdad, but never Skopie!!!
By the way, the name Egypt derives from Greek, meaning: below the Aegean sea
@Mattijs Van Miert , the Greeks aren’t lunatics like the Vardarski. If the Greeks took the Vardarski line of thought , and said that wherever the ancient Greeks were in the historical Medditeranean is a part of Greece similar to (the Vardarski claim of “historical Macedonia”), shows how hollow the Vardarski arguement is. More than thirty Greek city-states in ancient Greece had multiple colonies around the Mediterranean world, with the most active being the Greek city of Miletus, with ninety colonies stretching throughout the Mediterranean Sea, from the shores of the Black Sea and Anatolia (modern Turkey) in the east, to the southern coast of the Iberian Peninsula in the west, as well as several colonies on the northern coast of Africa with the overall sum being 1500 from the late ninth, up to the 5th century BC. Now if the Greeks took the lunatic Vardarski arguement , which you think is acceptable, which is to say that because Greeks were once in these places from modern day Spain and north Africa to the Cote D’azur in France and southern Italy, that they all were Greek at one time or another and should be returned to Greece,with all the inhabitants in these historical places be declared as Greek. Now how sensible is that. Its completely INSANE. But that is exactly the line of the Vardaski arguement. Show’s how complete nonsense the Vardarski claims are even though it has been shown that they are not Macedonian at all but Vardarski descendents of the Antes , north of the Danube.
Right what Mattijs van Miert said: Use of Hellnistic history or iconography is one thing and Greeks have a right to object to that. Use of the name Macedonia in the country’s name however, that is a whole different subject and it is not exclusively Greek.
The sooner the European Union and the rest of the world acknowledge that VARDARSKA and the Vardarski people suffer from (TSS) Tito Schizophrenia Syndrome, the better it will be for everyone. The Germans and all the Eurozone would not be pleased to know that the Vardarski are responsible for contributing to the collosal Greek debt, by forcing the Greek government to borrow money from the Germans to defend the Territorial integrity of Greece from the VARDARSKI and TURKISH Rogue states.
Ms. Kouris, I’m not defending any claims some Slavonic Macedonians put on Alexander the Great or on the entire region of Macedonia. I only defend their right to see their country as a part of the historical region Macedonia as it existed since the Roman period (so nt during the period of Alexander the Great). By the way, I’m not in favour of a “Republic of Macedonia” either. I am in favour of a “Northern Macedonia” or something similar and that doesn’t only ask some willingness of the Greek, but als of the Slavonic Macedonians. By the way, you call the Slavonic-Macedonians lunatics, but please allow me to ask: how many “Vardarski” do you actually know?
@Mattijs Van Miert, The Greek word Macedonia is GREEK PROPERTY and is not for SALE. Just like the French word for the sparkling wine produced from grapes grown in the Champagne region of France. Their is only one Champagne in the world and that is the sparkling wine from Champagne in France, which is the only Champagne in the world. The sparkling wine produced by the rest of the world outside this region is not considered legally as Champagne , but as Sparkling wine. French lawyers are spread across the world to legally sue any wine producer outside the French region of Champagne, that names their sparkling wine as Champagne. Do I smell Double standards here??? Where is European Solidarity and European justice with Greece?
@Matjjis. Northern Macedonia” has been one of our proposal so far. The Skopians do not agree even this
George , even the title of ” Northern Macedonia” for the Vardarski is considered a no-no by Greeks because it contains our priceless cultural property which is the sacred Greek word MACEDONIA, and this “Northern Macedionia “title continues to conceal the true identity of the Vardarski, further fueling the (TSS) Tito Schizophrenia Syndrome. The title “Northern Macedonia” is just adding fuel to the fire. The title VARDARSKA is the only acceptable solution for the Greeks.
I must agree with Mattijs Van Miert, there’s a bigger region called Macedonia, so i don’t think it’s a country’s property. Borders have changed a thousand times, but it’s time to move past that already.. No one is questioning the Greek right and pride over Alexander the Great, it’s just the name of the region. If anything, you should be proud they want to keep it as their name :)
Mr. Vakos, I think it’s great that the Greek proposed the name Northern Macedonia and it’s really a pitty that Skopje didn’t accept it. Of course it shouldn’t only be Greece doing all the work. The Slavonic Macedonians should also be willingly to compromise.
The Greek word MACEDONIA is not for sale just like the French word CHAMPAGNE is not for sale. CASE CLOSED.
Everyone uses the word champagne. Don’t you use it in Greece?
I get your point though, but i don’t see it coming to an end this way.. there will be a compromise, for both sides.
Tareq Hajaj, In the hospitality industry, bar staff and waiters have been explicitly warned that they are liable to litigation by French lawyers if a Frenchman catches a hospitality staff member promoting sparkling wine produced outside the Champagne region as Champagne. France with her French lawyers will defend their Champagne name with zeal, taking the hospitality establishment to the cleaners. As I said before THE GREEK word MACEDONIA is not for SALE. Never has been for sale and NEVER will be for sale. CASE CLOSED.
Ms. Kouris, there are no double standards, there are two different cases. The product Champagne is Champagne because it’s a special wine maded in the Champagne, like Gouda cheese is only Gouda cheese if it’s made in Gouda. Another wine, even a similar one, that isn’t produced in the Champagne region, simply isn’t Champagne and it’s illegal to label a product with something that it is not. That would be like calling a pear an apple. But Northern Macedonia belongs to the Ottoman region called Macedonia, so it s a part of Macedonia and thus has the right to carry “Macedonia” in it’s name. “Macedonia” isn’t a name that is bound to the Greek people, it is a name that is bound to a specific territory that is nowadays devided between three countries (don’t forget there is also the Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia). In Europe, there are many historical regions who are nowadays devided between different countries, but do we Belgians prohibit the Dutch to use the name Northern Brabant for one of their provinces? No! However, Brabant was unified by the counts of Louvain, which is today a Belgian city.I can see why you don’t like that the Slavonic Macedonians would act like being the only true Macedonians, because they simply aren’t, but I can’t see why you refuse to see them as the inhabitants of a prt of the region that has been under the name Macedonia for almost 2000 years?
We have a similar problem in Romania with a drink’s name – palinca. Which at origin it’s Hungarian, so they wanted also to get some sort of copyright on it.
In both cases, even for the French with their stupid wine, i think it’s silly…kind of first world problems. Europe has been dealing over time with the biggest disasters, wars and conflicts mankind has ever seen and now we get stuck to these childish problems..
Anyway, i agree with you 100%, it’s a Greek name and symbol, but where we separate is that i try to integrate things in the 21th century. We can’t have the same thinking we had in the 1940’s.. National pride is overrated nowadays. It won’t bring you money, nor health, nor increase your living standards. So compromise must be made, the Rep of Macedonia will never be erased from the map and also, Macedonia will always be a Greek name. You will have to meet half way..
@Mattijs Van Miert, how morally acceptable is it to accept the legal legitimacy of the Ottoman Empire or the Roman Empire over Greek cultural property without Greek conscent . Not morally acceptable at all. While Greece was under the Ottoman Turkish occupation , our cultural property was sold by the Turks to any adventurer travelling through Europe like Lord Elgin who vandalised and deformed the Parthenon in Athens, stealing the Parthenon sculptures and taking them back to Britain, where the stolen property is displayed now in the British Museum. What would happen if stolen sacred Jewish property from Europe’s Jews , who had perished during the holaucast was displayed in the British Museum, and not returned??? I smell DOUBLE STANDARDS. Just as it is not morally acceptable to accept the dictatorship of Hitler and his Nazi regime of terror over all the people of Europe, is is not morally acceptable to tyranny of the Ottoman Turks and the Roman Empire over Greek cultural property. The Greek word Macedonia is not for Sale.
And regarding the European solidarity and European justice with Greece, there also is a European solidarity and justice with the Slavonic Macedonians. Why would Europe necessarily have to pick Greece’s side? Why would Europe necessarily have to pick sides at all? I think most Europeans just want a solution that fits for both the Greek and the Slavonic Macedonians, and not only one that fits for you. By the way, you say that Vardarska is the only acceptable solution for the Greeks, but in this discussion, i’ve seen a lot of Greeks who re willingly to reach a compromise, or others who only found FYROM acceptable. I don’t think you can speak in name of all the Greek, just like I can’t speek in name of all the Belgians.
Ms. Kouris, you really can’t compare the Romans or the Ottomans to Hitler. That comparism doesn’t work at all! In the time of Alexander the Great, the region Macedonia was indeed much smaller and the territory of the current FYR wasn’t part of it. But as it is argued before, regions expand and collapse over time. The region Macedonia, and thus its name, expanded under Roman rule and it stayed that way. Including during the Byzanthine era, so to me it seems that the Byzanthine people were of the opinion that the territory of the current FYR was an integral part of Macedonia. Now, were or weren’t the Byzanthine rulers Greek? Do you consider the Byzanthine people as the ancestors of the current Greek or not? In any case, they seem to have been of the opinion that the territory of the current FYR was a part of Macedonia.
And I don’t see why the Greek cultural heritage should be put over the Roman or Ottoman, and really, no one “owns” history!
Easy to say if you don’t have :)
@Mattijs Van Miert, it was Tito’s schizophrenia that caused this mess. Not Greece but Tito in 1945. Surely the European Union has the mechanisms and the tools to solve this in acceptable manner where the Truth about Vardarska is finally shown the light of day. The solution to the problem is so light-weight when compared to the wrekage caused by the Tyranny of Hitler and the Nazis over Europe and its impact on all Europeans from the 1930’s onwards.
By the way, Skopje, the name, derives from Greek, meaning: guardians. (plural). The Skopians naturaly ignore it, because they just “misshandle” and abuse history…
Maro frankly that is ridiculous. I already gave you examples of how Germanic tribes invaded northern Italy and now call themselves “Italians”, which was the Latin name for the peninsula. Macedonia isn’t a name that is trademarked. Maybe the Scots and the Welsh should forbid the English from calling their Kingdom “great Britain” or themselves “British” because Britain is a name for the island that they came up with before the Angles and Saxons invaded. And I have no idea why the Ottomans’ provincial boundaries, or the Romans’ are any less legitimate than those of Alexander’s Empire, since all three empires were built on military conquest and subjugation of other ethnic group. Alexander had himself declared a god – I am not sure under what moral code he wins out. This is exactly the point of this dispute. Both sides have a point to a certain extent, and then they use that point to take it to their most ridiculous extreme.
Maybe Greece should stop blackmailing this small country and stop considering the name “Macedonia” as its own brand. Greece has more urgent problems to solve – like paying back its debts to the EU.
Mr. Vakos, you blame the Skopians for ignoring that their city carries a Greek name, but do the Greeks learn at school that Alexander the Great actually commited a lot of genocides? It’s sad, but that’s simply what countries do. People just rather hide the unpleasant parts of their past. And I can’t blame them, since I do it as well, and I can’t think of anyone who doesn’t.
Actually George, it comes from the Latin name Scupi. Apart from the fact that you now sound like the dad on “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” where Greeks apparently had a hand in everything ever created by mankind, you are also implicitly conceding that if Skopje were a Greek town, then ancient Macedon extended that far north even before the Paeonian conquest, which would make that entire territory Macedonia, not just present day Greek Macedonia and the south west portions of FYROM around Lake Ohrid and Prespa.
The real problem is not just the name… What about nation? Never lived a nation at this planet that called Macedonians… They were Greeks and that can’t be changed. Ok one part of their land belongs to macedonian region but they can’t travel around the world and say “we are macedonians” . It is human right? And what about Greek that are macedonians? Must start speak slavian language? Macedonians could participate at the Olympics, you know that only greeks could. Alexandros, Philipos, Makedonas have greek etymology. Case closed…. Another subject? Why England is in EU like UK and not Great Britain? Maybe because there is also in France Britagne? I am just asking… Maybe the only solution is a mix name with slavo- .
But ms. Kouris, surely you can understand that not everyone agrees with your solution? There can only be a real solution if both sides concede a bit. In my opinion, Greece already did that by proposing ‘Northern Macedonia’, but sadly, FYR Macedonia didn’t accept it. Thus they should try to find a new solution that fits both the majority of Greece’s inhabitants and the majority of FYR Macedonia’s inhabitants. That is how modern democracy works.
@Jovan Ivosevic , you continue to ignore the reality and are completely hypocritical . You brand the hard reality of the matter as “ridiculous”. You continue to deny the Vardarski identity, because it is considered “ridiculous” to the Vardarski. On the one hand your Vardarski countryman glorify and idolize Alexander the Great by naming the international airport of Skopje after Alexander the Great , then you seem to distance yourself from Alexander the Great , critisizing him because of his godly boasts . What Hypocracy. The Vardarski are in great need of an IDOL , and Alexander the Great with his Greek heritage seems to fit the Vardarski need. What happened to Jesus Christ for the Vardarski. Europe must put an end to this Tito schizophrenia syndrome once and for all. The word Macedonia is Greek property and is not for sale. CASE CLOSED.
We are not macedonians,we are bulgarians and our true name is VARDARSKA.
We are not macedonians we are bulgarians,and our true name is VARDARSKA.
@Natasa, what blackmail????? The Vardarski should stop smoking Tito’s weed. Its made the entire Vardarski populace completely schizophrenic!!!!The Greek word MACEDONIA is not for sale. Never has been , and never will be. As I have said before the ancestors of the Vardarski are the Antes which migrated into the Balkans from north of the Danube in the 6th century AD, raiding the Byzantine Empire from the 520s onwards, on an annual basis. They spread about destruction, taking loot and herds of cattle, seizing prisoners and taking fortresses. Often, the Byzantine Empire was stretched defending its rich Asian provinces. This meant that even numerically small, disorganised early Antes and Sklavenoi raids were capable of causing much disruption, but could not capture the larger, fortified cities. Florin Curta – a 6th-century Byzantine chronicler, states that the Vardarski ‘homeland’ was north of the Danube and not in the Belorussian-Ukrainian borderlands. As Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that Sklavenoithe settled the western Balkans, becoming one of the forerunners of the linguistic group that became the Bosnians, Serbs and Croats, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern and southern regions (roughly speaking), becoming one of the ancestors of the Bulgarians and the Vardarski.
This is just going in circles. Alexander the Great, the Vergina Sun, those are all iconographical symbols which have a Greek root. Macedonia is a name that has been used by non Greeks for 2300+ years now, and it is hardly unique. And Tito didn’t use Alexander the Great in forgiving FYROM’s identity, the Conservativeand anti communist VMRO party did, which isn’t the only historical inaccuracy they use. They also portray the 1903 St. Elijah uprising as a Macedonian uprising created by a multi ethnic front of people when in fact it was an uprising staged by a Bulgarian revolutionary organization in both Adrianople as well as Macedonia. So Tito has very little to do with Alexander the Great’s statue in Skopje today – it was built 30 years after his death.
Our name is VARDARSKA
WE ARE BULGARIANS NOT MACEDONIANS
There’s no such entity like Mecedonian state today. Ancient scholars refer to Macedonia as one of the many greek kingdoms. Alexander “The Great” was a greek guy with a megalomaniacal ambition to conquer the known world and I don’t see how he and his tribe relates to FYROM citizens of today. To the present day there are no evidences vise versa. Briefly the real story goes like this: In 1945 the WWII ended. Defeated Bulgaria and Albania had to give up some territories for being on the wrong side of the military conflict regarded above. Most of these lands went to Serbia a.k.a Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Back then serbian doctrine was to eradicate the bulgarian, the greek and the albanian ethnic population in these lands, because it was a common believe that there will be another war in the next 20 to 30 years. So they came up with a new gimmick! What they said to the people was that they are not greek, or bulgarian or whatever, that they were directly connected to the tribe of Alexander “The Great” (for later known as Alexander of Macedonia) and if you don’t like it – you can go and f*ck your self! There were many people killed, imprisoned or forced to leave the country. My grand-grand father was born and raised in Skopie so I have pictures of the city from 1930’s, 1940’s. On the shops, restaurants you can see greek and bulgarian writings, even some turkish signs, but nothing alike the so called macedonian language. FYROM has never been a kingdom, never had a language of it’s own, never had a history. Everything they say they are is stolen from Greece (5000 years proven and written history), Bulgaria (1400 years of history), Albania (900 years of history). This is what it’s all about!
WE HOPE THAT THE EUROPEAN UNION HELP US TO TAKE OUR TRUE NAME VARDARSKA
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS
The situation is a record and so interesting is 7 enjoy but 62 comments :)
I sincerely hope the person commenting under Maro is under the age of 16 but I fear that is not the case.
Kostas ya like Serxio is saying. however, ya, Ivan, how’s Bulgaria feeling?
Mattjis and Kurdistan ..
I’m not sure it’s the name or hellenic symbols ..That’s what I heard.
Vladimir my grandfathers were ages 15 and 19 at the end of World War 2 and citizens of a Stalinist regime at that time. So apart from the fact that international relocation was not an option, if it was I don’t think that a newly minted Soviet puppet state like Bulgaria which had previously been a Nazi ally and which had warred with us twice in the previous 30 years would have been the choice destination. I have no idea which of my “states” you are talking about but I really have no interest in finding out.
There is only 1 Macedonia and that is Greek Macedonia. So any name with Macedonia in it is not justifiable.
The way fyroms government acted and still acts is like they are asking for veto! They didn’t just want a name for them , they claimed parts of greek history,they erected monuments of our national heroes,they made propaganda about Alexanders and Phillips ancestry and they even proclaimed Alexander a saint of their church which is not acknowledged by the Patriarchate! This not a the way a civilized country of 21st century should act! What they ask for is inconceivable and they will get nothing I assure you because a Greek,not only by ethnicity but in his heart in his soul in his brain and his education and I am sure that are millions of ”Greeks” all over the world will not tolerate such disgrace
How can anyone agree that FYROMians should call themselves the one and only “Macedonians”? I personally do not think they are Macedonians at all, since they have so little in common with their supposed ancestors. They hate Greeks, they don’t speak Greek, and they emphatically minimize the connection between ancient Macedonians and their Greek brethren. For these reasons alone they do not deserve to call themselves Macedonians.
However, if FYROMians were to finally admit that their language is Bulgarian (or anything but “Macedonian”) and call their country Vardar-Macedonia or Slavomacedonia, then this might be an acceptable compromise. But FYROM cannot ever use simply “Macedonia”. A nation founded on a lie will not survive.
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS
Jovan the Greeks may go a little bananas over it simply because they do not trust the other side… since FYROM engages constantly in propaganda and keeps using Greek symbols and heroes, rewriting history altogether, then the Greeks go over the board and do not allow any use of the name of Macedonia no matter what… For me, if the FYROMians give up their historic claims and stop the propaganda against Greece, I would happily settle for a name like Slavomacedonia, Slavonic Republic of Macedonia etc… But they reject something like this… I would even accept Northern Macedonia but only again they give up their historic claims and stop demanding land compensations for the loses they suffered during the wars.. The Greeks lost lands too and they were expelled from Anatolia, and many parts of Bulgaria, FYROM and Albania… Do we see us moaning to get our lands back and start propaganda against Turkey or Bulgaria for the expulsions or the exchange of populations? No.. They need to grow up, leave the past behind and tone down their nationalism… Then I wold be very happy to welcome them into the European family where they belong…..
Ms. Kouris, as I recall, mr. Ivosevic said that he is from Belgrade, so he isn’t Macedonian, so why are you calling him “Vardarski thief”? Also, you say “Jovan finally admitted”, but he only repeated what he has been saying during the entire debate. And this is the last time I’m going to say this, because I’m becoming tired of repeating it over and over again: Alexander the Great and Macedonia are no synonyms. It is not because Alexander the Great is Greek, that Macedonia is only Greek as well. Macedonia has been Greek, Roman, Slavonic, Bulgarian, Byzanthine, Ottoman, Jugoslavian and whatever more. It’s a territory and nowadays that territory is divided between three countries. In this debate we have had two discussions: one about whether the Slavonic Macedonians could claim Alexander the Great or not -which hardly was an discussion since everyone here seems to agree on the topic- and one about whether they should be allowed to use a name containing “Macedonia” or not. That last one is the real discussion, so please stop mixing Alexander the Great in the debate.
Well Jovan. We were on war three times. 1914 Balkan Wars, WWI&WWII. In the two world wars we were not in war with you. You were under german occupation and there was really no need to fight you. So, In fact we were in war only once during the Balkan war in 1914 which, my friend, you’ve lost. I don’t know what your history books are saying about it, but if you read the UK History of WWI, you’ll have the idea why Bulgaria was on the German side! About the communist regime and Stalin – you got it easy. Tito managed to pull your country out of the soviets shadow pretty fast. Stop bragging about it! Be cool! :)
Mattijs whoever that person is created a FB page specifically for this thread. Take a look at the “Vardarska is our true name page” above. It has three likes and was created a couple of hours ago. If anyone is going to go through so much trouble on this topic as to fake profile page to pretend that some Slavic Macedonians support the Greek version of this dispute, I think it’s pretty obvious that this person is not interested in a rational debate. I don’t think everyone who is on the internet is crazy but it seems inevitable that everyone who is crazy is on the internet, usually more often.
Mr. Vakos, that isn’t at all the mr. Jovic’ logic. I don’t get how you make that out of his comments. That the name derives from Greek hasn’t anything to do with their right to claim the name “Macedonia”, at least for a part. And to your information, the word “Greek” derives from Latin (of course, Greece is in Greek something like Hellas or Ellas, isn’t it?). And I don’t think over 50% of the English words derive from Greek, since most of them derive from either ancient German dialects (Anglo-Saxon) or Normand (a French dialect).
@ Mr. Jovan. According to your logic, any place in the world whose name derives from Greek, should be at least…Macedonian. What about Amazon river, Atlantic ocean, etc. etc…To your information, latin alphabet and western civilization in general derives from Greek. Over 50% of the English words derive from Greek. All these are prooven facts. Please get better informed about Skopians version of history and their territorial claims. Only then you could have a correct view of this dispute. In relation to the European Union, Greece is a ful member since 32 years. According to EU regulations, any country appling to enter the Union, must respect and recognize every single country member of the Union. Thereafter, the Former yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia will never be legitable to enter, unless it changes its attitude towards Greece.
There are: Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Albanian Macedonians. None of them has the right to monopolize the name like FYROM does. I agree that “Slavomacedonia” is the right name for them but they already rejected it back in 90’s.
There are: Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Albanian Macedonians. None of them has the right to monopolize the name like FYROM does. I agree that “Slavomacedonia” is the right name for them but they already rejected it back in 90’s
Skopje region had never been in history part of Alexander,s Macedonia. This is a prooven fact.
George, I think if you read what I wrote above, my opinion is not even close to what FYROM has advanced on this issue. And as a Serb, I have nothing but a good opinion of both Greece and FYROM and don’t feel particular emotional involvement with the subject other than mild amusement. S ince I am talking to a Greek now I will just say that regardless of the facts, I don’t think you are objectively evaluating the politics of Greece’s position on this issue. FYROM is recognized under the name of “Republic of Macedonia” by Washington. From my experience as a Serb on the Kosovo issue, I can tell you having the United States publicly put its foreign policy weight behind your opponent’s position is a very big deal politically. And if Greeks feel that while they are in the midst of the worst economic recession in decades, they are under siege from Germany and the Northern countries to back more austerity in exchange for loan guarantees, the smartest thing to do is take what little political capital they have in the EU and use it to wage a 26-1 battle over a country that is not a threat to you, and with whom you have a cultural dispute regarding the use of historical references which happened before Jesus was born… well, that is Greece’s right, but to me it sounds inexplicable. It’s an uphill battle and it seems like a pointless one to me. Not that the Skopje government isn’t guilty of the same, and losing valuable time in negotiating its EU membership, which is why I said above that both sides need to be adults about this and resolve it with some sort of a compromise, knowing full well that no matter what that compromise is, absolutely NOTHING will change for Greece. The world will still see Alexander as Greek, there will be zero impact to your economy, your territorial integrity etc. So ultimately the choice is yours, I am just a guy who has nothing against either side and an impartial spectator on this.
@Mr. Mattijs. Thank you very much indeed to inform me that the name “Greece” is Latin. I am really grateful to you. But, in order to better understand our logic, u should read more carefully above comments. Please be informed that many French words derive from Greek as well, many of them thru Latin.
Yes, I know that a lot of Latin, French, English and also Dutch words are derived from Greek, but 50% only seemed quite too much :) I can understand most of your (your in singular) logic, the only thing is that I don’t agree. Of course you can have your own opinion about the matter; it’s a good thing to have an own opinion. I only hope you guys are willingly to reach a compromise with the FYR-Macedonians (and of course, they should compromise as well). Reading the comments, I think you, mr. Vakos, are prepared to compromise if the Slavonic Macedonians compromise as well – correct me if I’m wrong -, but that ms. Kouris won’t even consider listening to the opinion of others and that she only uses a good vs bad logic.
Greece and FYROM are supposed to be in a process of negotiations seeking to discover a common ground and reach an agreement to settle the so-called Name Issue.
Essentially this means that each of them ought to move its initial Position trying to meet each other somewhere in the middle. While Greece has already compromised by moving its initial Position and accepting a geographical identifier, FYROM stubbornly insist on staying on her initial Position refusing to make any compromise.
While FYROM constitutes only a small PART (1/4) of the Macedonian Region, they insist to monopolise the name “Macedonia” by not accepting any geographical identifier. In fact the PART (1/4) tries to impose its will to the Majority (3/4). Its just preposterous. This stubborn and irrational attitude by FYROM prohibits the whole process of negotiations from resolving the issue.
Its apparent that FYROM does not want to make any compromise. They participate in the process only just to claim to the third parties that they do and try to shake off the blame of the negotiations failure from themselves.
If i am not mistaken, the former PM of Greece, George Papandreou had met with FYROM’s PM Nikola Gruevski about 10 times. Between the 9th and 10th meeting, Gruevski erected the statue of Alexander the Great in Skopje.
Is this a responsible stance of a country which supposedly wishes to become a member in EU/NATO? What message should Greece take out of this? Only that Greece is trying to negotiate with a country that cant stop provoking and poison the process of negotiations.
You are not mistaken. Very eloquently put.
@Jovan. I fully agree to ur above comment. As a Serbian u know very well America s and EU policy. The issue here is that an unprecedented brainwashing took place to a whole gereration for their Macedonian ancestry, which strongly refers to very powerful international centers with political, economical, cultural, even religious motives. On the other hand, Skopje are in a worse position since their economy depends in a great degree from Greece and at the same time likes to enter the EU.
I know this is probably an irrelevant comment but the more I read through the various topics of this page the more I realise that there is no chance to form a true Union. I guess that variety of opinions is always constructive but too much variety indicates complete chaos.
We have moderated some of the comments in this thread because the debate was going off-topic and because not all of the comments were following our code of conduct. Please keep the debate respectful and concentrate on the arguments themselves, and not the people making them, otherwise we will have to lock the thread.
@Mr. Mattjis. Mrs Kouris, s arguments are fully correct, historically speaking, and i fully support them. But as correct noted, we Greeks should compromise because 1/America has recognized FYROM as Macedonia. 2/ Reasons as explained in my above comment, 3/ we confront with people to those a brainashing took place. Consequently they behave like psycho.4/ We are under economical attack from international centers ( cause their reasons) and we need support.
It can but it won`t! And now it is not only Greece that has a hot dispute with FYROM but the other EU member country Bulgaria, too. So FYROM is not welcomed by the only 2 EU countries that it is neighbouring…
I agree both with Mr Van Miert and Mr Ivosevic.
Taking into account the political the political point of view, I would like to add that the influence of the current government in FYROM. Fyrom’s accession in EU and NATO would have been already completed if Mr Gruevski and his policy would be less nationalist.
According to Wikileaks, Mr Gruevski us the one who holds gis country’s accession back for certain reasons. One of them is that he desires the fully control of his society without any political, economical influence from EU.
In addition, the recent Hellinization and Romanization of the city of Skopje, as well as the renaming of central streets and parks, found not only the country isolated but its people as well.
So I strongly believe that the name dispute will not ever resolved under the far-right government of Gruevski.
Ancient Macedonia was not Hellenic. Those were northern barbaric tribes that were under Greek cultural influence, but never considered themselves Greeks as were the Thracians. Greece has no historic ground for claiming the name only for itself. On the other hand, Greece is in deep sh*t now and the bullyboy Mathew Nimitz will try to take all possible advantage from this.
And please don`t rely on that Zlatarsky guy anymore. He has done a great job 80 years ago, but to continue relying on him nowadays is an absurd. As if to rely on Aristoteles as a historic source for modern disputes.
In Response to the historical falsehoods promoted by Jokera Jokerov:
“Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and THE REST OF GREECE and did US great harm, though WE had done them no prior injury […] ”
Alexander the Great
(Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)
But lets pretend for the sake of the argument that we wish to know how the ordinary Macedonians identified themselves.
Mr Jokerov, could you please translate for us what this ancient Macedonian has written in the following ancient inscription and how he identifies himself and his people?
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D214130%26bookid%3D224%26region%3D2%26subregion%3D5
Look what happens when I maintain my silence!!!!
Jovan Ivosevic and Mattijs Van Miert please follow the discussions on the Debating Europe website here ( https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2013/01/08/can-the-macedonia-name-dispute-be-resolved/ ) there are more valid points and arguments over there to enrich your already great arguments and contributions and expand your knowledge… I do not know why the posts there do not automatically show in here too… But what is being written here shows over there… Apart from that, I am glad that we are getting somewhere with this..And I am glad that there are eventually some fellow European who finally understand our position… That is a start… Next stop? Convincing the Slavomacedonians to abandon their biased doctrine their propaganda and accept their real identity…And then? Convincing the Greeks that their neighbors are not their enemies anymore their heritage is not under threat and share the name. And what should Europe or America do? Educate themselves to make a educated decision… Listen to both sides… If America and Europe want to play the broker then while Obama or any other President speaks of the “Republic of Macedonia” it would be good to make a following note of the Greek Alexander the Great in the same speech… That will infuriate both sides but also will pass a message to both… If I feel secure that my heritage and the true history of this region of Europe will be safe and justice will be given, then why would I fear? Let’s all get on with it…..
@Christos, why should the Greeks compromise and sell the Greek word MACEDONIA to the Vardarski. The French set the international legal precedent with the CHAMPAGNE issue. Just as the French won’t give an inch on the Champagne NAME to anyone outside the Champagne region in Francer, so the Greeks must not give an inch on the MACEDONIA name. MACEDONIA is Greek property.the word MACEDONIA is not for SALE. I don’t want the Vardarski to be HELLENIZED. As it has been shown before, the Tito schizophrenia Syndrome imposed on the Vardarski populace from 1944 onwards continues to this very day. The Vardarski have named their international airport in Skopje – “ALEXANDER THE GREAT”. But as has been clearly shown earlier and you acknowledge, these VARDARSKI have absolutely no ethnic relation what-so-ever to ALEXANDER THE GREAT. The ancestors of the Vardarski – the ANTES- came from north of the Danube into the Balkans from 520AD onwards.It was King Phillip II (Alexanders father) who first organised the Greek crusade against the Persian Empire. Before Alexander the Great went into battle against the Persian Empire , Alexander held a festival in honour of the Muses at Dium in Macedonia ( at the foot of Mt Olympus – home of the ancient Greek gods)- this lasted for 9 days, with one day dedicated to each Muses. They are the daughters of the ancient Greek god Zeus and Mnemosyne. They are known for the music of their song, which brings joy to any who hear it. There are nine Muses, each with her own specialty: Clio (History), Urania (Astronmy), Melpomene (Tragedy), Thalia (Comedy), Terpsichore (Dance), Calliope (Epic Poetry), Erato (Love Poetry), Polyhymnia (Songs to the Gods), Euterpe (Lyric Poetry).
Thanks Christos but I think I will close out with this topic. Sadly the most irrational people are loudest in these debates.
Maro Kouris, everything you said in your last post has been repeated and answered 40 posts ago. You are like an MP3 player with the repeat button stuck in the on position.
Maro the word and name Macedonia is Greek there is no doubt about that… But our fight is not on the name… Our fight is to establish the Greek heritage of our ancestors and promote ours too… As a Greek Macedonian that is my goal… Either you like it or not our European friends are right on one point… Macedonia was Greek in the beginning then it was multinational or multicultural… Now part of it is Greek again… Macedonia should be a region of Europe divided in three nations… The history and heritage of our ancestors remain with us, but the name as a region is shared with our neighbors… If of course they learn to play fair from now on…. Slavomacedonians get a bit of what they want. We safeguard our intetests that lie with the heritage and historical continuation…. The issue is not the name remember…..
there is no such thing as a greek macedonian.can you trace your ancestry in occupied macedonia from before 1900.i very much doubt it.majority of you greeks that live in occupied macedonia are from turkey – that is right you are christian turks mainly from the pontus region.how dare you take my history,you have no shame to steal history or being a goat herder from pontus is not good enough for you
@Christos , the Greek word MACEDONIA is not for sale to the Vardarski, just like the French word CHAMPAGNE is not for sale to anyone outside the CHAMPAGNE region in France. This is the sophisticated French policy international precedent that must be applied by the Greeks on the MACEDONIA word issue. Are our Greek politicians and Greek bureaucrats sophisticated enough like the French politicians and French bureaucrats, to follow a similar policy line on the MACEDONIA word issue. The Macedonia word is cultural property of the Greeks and NOT FOR SALE.
Listen everyone, thinking rationally helps sometimes:
1. If you look at it geographically Macedonia is a territory not a country. It is a territory shared among 4 countries. Therefore all four countries have a right to the name but qualifiers must be used to distinguish them apart. What can be more reasonable and eloquent than Northern Macedonia for FYROM?
2. If you look at it historically only about 10% of what is within FYROM was once part of ancient Macedonia. The remaining 40% was Paionia and 50% was Dardania. So a logical human being may ask, if you want to give your country a name based on history why not call it Dardania or Paionia?
3. If you look at it linguistically the ancient Macedonians spoke Greek (the Dorian dialect) as witnessed on numerous inscriptions, tombs etc. Even the word “Macedonia” is Greek meaning highlanders. So if FYROMIANS hate Greeks so much at least spell your country with your Slavic spelling “Makedonjia” after the qualifier.
4. If you look at it archaeologically all ancient major Macedonian cities and findings are in Greece. Yes there are findings in FYROM as well but these are secondary and expected since as I mentioned 10% of ancient Macedonia lies within FYROM. So if Macedonia was a person where do you think he/she would want to live and post his/her address, in FYROM or in Greece?
5. If you look at it echnologically Greeks have been living in Macedonia since around the 7th century BC. Slavs have been living in Macedonia since around the 7th century AD. If you’re a mathematician you can say that’s 1400 years apart. If your a linguist you can say its the first four letters of the alphabet ABCD. Greece gets the BC and FYROM gets the AD. They both get the 7th century. Based on this fact alone ask a sensible person which ethnos has a right to proclaim they are Macedonians?
Also if you look at the Ottoman census there was NEVER a mention of Macedonians living in the area, only Greeks, Bulgarians, Jews, Albanians, Serbs.
6. If you look at it numerically Greeks were always the majority in Macedonia even BEFORE the population exchange of 1922.
7. If you look at it Biblically there is a book called Thessalonians, not Solunians. And if you further open the Bible you will notice that NOT ONCE is there a mention of the word “Macedonian” , but there are many references to the word “Macedonia” along with the GREEKS that lived there.
8. And finally if you look at it sensibly all ancient texts whether by historians, philosophers, poets, politicians, acknowledge the Macedonians were Greeks. Even the Persians knew this since they referred to the Macedonians as tabayan( not sure of the spelling) which in Persian means “Greeks who wear hats” in reference to their particular headwear.
Even Demosthenes reference to Phillip as a barbarian is questioned in its context since he also called his Athenian political rival Aristogeiton a barbarian and since Demosthenes himself was called a barbarian by Aeschines another political adversary!
@Jokera, In Greek mythology, Makedon is the eponymous hero of Macedonia and is mentioned in Hesiod?s Catalogue of Women.The first Macedonian state emerged in the 8th or early 7th century BC under the Argead Dynasty, who, according to Hesiod and Greek legend, migrated to the region from the Greek city of Argos in the Peloponnesus (thus the name Argead). The Argeads claimed descent from the Temenids of Argos, in the Peloponnese, whose legendary ancestor was Temenus, the great-great-grandson of Heracles. Herodotus mentions that when the Macedonian King Alexander I was asked to prove his Greek descent in order to participate in the Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only men of Greek origin were entitled to participate. Alexander proved his (Argead) descent and was allowed to compete by the Hellanodika. The Argead dynasty was an ancient Greek royal house. i: ?And that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I happen to know myself, and not only so, but I will prove in the succeeding history that they are Greeks.” The Hellanodicai, managed the ancient Olympic Games at Olympia, decided that they were so: for when Alexander wished to contend in the games and had descended for this purpose into the arena.
According to Theopompus the Historian , from the Greek island of Chios- fourth-century BC historian and orator- King Caranus was the first king of Macedonia in 808?778 BC. Caranus was son of Temenus, king of Argos, who in turn was a Heraclid. The Heraclids were a group of Dorian kings who conquered the Peloponnesian kingdoms of Mycenae, Sparta and Argos. In Greek mythology, the Heraclids were the numerous descendants of Heracles (Hercules). The Macedonian King Caranus came to Macedonia with a large band of Argives ( people from Argos), being instructed by an oracle to seek a home in Macedonia. Here, following a herd of goats running from a downpour, he seized the city of Edessa, the inhabitants being taken unawares because of heavy rain and dense fog. Remembering the oracle?s command to follow the lead of goats in his quest for an empire, Caranus established the city as his capital, and thereafter he made it a solemn observance, wheresoever he took his army, to keep those same goats before his standards in order to have as leaders in his exploits the animals which he had had with him to found the kingdom. He gave the Mecedonian city of Edessa the name Aegae and its people the name Aegeads ( the first Macedonians) in memory of this service.
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS
we are not thieves.we are the real macedonians.learn your history first then comment
Gosh, guys! Thank you for the lesson in ancient Greek mythology, but please listen: mythology is connected with literature, folklore, fiction and imagination, not with history in the sense what has happened. What about an Iraqi claiming that the myth of Gilgamesh is true? Or you, people trying to explain the structure of the planet Eart according to Ephorus of Milet, or the Brits claiming the objectivity of the Beoulf epos? Keep calm and carry on! There are no money for new members, so they won`t allow them in. We, Greeks and Bulgarians have managed to ruin it with the help of the Romanians. :D
In 2013 We are arguing about the name of a legitimate Country (Macedonia) just because of the sterile nationalism ( METAXISM ? ) of a poor and stressed Country ( Greece ) .
Then somebody surprises of E.U. crisis ….
????????? is not just a name: bears HISTORY on it and it is the name of the only Hellenic empire ever (set up by Alexander the great). The Macedonians are not just a geographic name: they are greek-speaking people that survived and continued the historic+cultural tradition in ?????????.
Obviously, most of the Europeans do not understand that accepting a “legitimate” country that bears in its constitution nationalist threats to the territorial and cultural integrity of a EU-member state is the worst way to promote peace and security in the area.
In fact, the “macedonian ethnicity” was created by Tito in the late 1940s in order to stabilize Yugoslav authority in the southern part of Yugoslavia were the majority of the population were not Slavs but Bulgarians and Albanians. Thus, he got the idea to create a “Macedonian nation” transcripting the bulgarian idiom from the Cyrilic to the latin alphabet (thus, breaking the literature connection of the local bulgarian-speaking population from motherland Bulgaria) and use them to suppress the Albanian minority in both southern Yugoslavia and Kossovo. Balancing the internal forces of a unitary Yugoslav federation worked perfectly till its collapse in 1991.
The collapse of the Yugoslav federation led to widespread nationalism that forced Greece to defend its cultural heritage (history and symbols of the ancient Macedonian Empire) as well as its territorial integrity (the “constitution” of the newly independent FYRoM includes some articles that imply mega-nationalist claims over the Greek periphery of Macedonia and its capital ??????????? Thessaloniki called by the Bulgarian majority of FYRoM, Solun).
Hoping that the West European Usurers Corporation (disguised as “European Union”) won’t escalate its assault against my country, undertaking further hostile actions against us
George Yiannistiotis, PhD
Mr. Mouzeviris, thanks for pointing out that the discussion on the webiste is somewhat different. I didn’t know that. But now I’m going to focus on the exam I have in a couple of days :) Only one last comment: ms. Kouris, your comparison doesn’t really fit: while the Champagne region is in its whole situated in France, the Macedonia region (in its modern meaning, the one it has for over 2000 years) isn’t situated in only one country. And yes, the name “Macedonia” is derived from ancient Greek, but the name “Indonesia” is also partly derived from ancient Greek (doesn’t “nesos” mean island?). Then, should we prohibit the Indonesians to use the name Indonesia, because it’s partly derived from Greek?
You are very correct to point out that the Macedonia region is not situated in only one country. That is the reason it needs geographical qualifiers to distinguish the Macedonia of each country. Northern Macedonia would be a perfect fit. FYROM cannot have exclusive right to the name. As you said it is a REGION not a country.
Se os estados da UE tiveram solidariedade com a Grécia e porque não agora com a Macedónia desque respeite os valores democraticos
@Mattijs Van Miert , I taste DOUBLE STANDARDS again. When will you get out of that bad habit. Sparkling wine known as Champagne , is made all over the world, the French have trademarked the name, since the sparkling wine process known as Champagne was created and began in the province of Champagne in France. Just as the French have insisted that one cant call sparkling wine produced anywhere outside the world as Champagne, so to must it be that the sacred Greek work MACEDONIA, cannot be used to define a state outside Greece. This is because the sacred word Macedonia is a Greek word with historical associations spanning back thousands of years . This must be the solid policy foundation for the Macedonia issue. @ Christos Mouzeviris, everyting originates from resolving internationally though agreement , ownership of the Sacred Greek word , Macedonia.
Pretty much every hateful, inaccurate and rascist comment on this website is from either a greek Bulgarian or Serbian… Says a lot to be quite frank. Where are your so called good neighbourly relations??? Not to mention there are hardly any macedonians on here- you see they dont need to troll the internet like the rest of you. The greeks are especially obsessed with this topic, failing to acknowledge amongst many other things that their country didnt exist until the 1800’s, that they forcibly expelled hundreds of thousands of macedonians from the aegean and before one of you jump in and say thats a lie- my grandparents are living proof, they are from solun, why would they lie about that? Macedonians are warm, lovely, courageous people. Why the right to self determination is even being debated in the 21st century is incomprehensible. This is a great injustice and a travesty for the people of Macedonia. Shame on the world for standing by and letting Greece carry on in this way. This website is just a platform for the greeks to continue wasting their time sitting on their asses complaining and spending the EU’s money. Pathetic!!! You are greek just as I am MACEDONIAN and my kids will be Macedonian – you can call me what you like but I know who I am and where I came from…..
What about Bulgarians in FYROM?What about their right of self determination? Bulgaria made a huge mistake recognizing you.”sitting on their asses complaining and spending the EU’s money”.Your tongue is full of poison.Are you jealous?We can do whatever we want with EU’s money.You are the last we are gonna ask.
There has been an increasing number of reports about the harassment by Macedonia’s authorities of Macedonians declaring themselves to be Bulgarians. Notable cases in the past two years include the fate of young mother Spaska Mitrova from Gevgelija and the family of Zdravko Zdraveski from Prilep.
@Mr. Mattijs: Please be kind to read some of my above comments, with my theses about the western civilization. We Greeks do not claim the whole world, Indonesia included. Indonesia has no territorial claims to Greece, they do not try to change our history and our sympols, too. like Skopians do. Therefore your arguments are fully irrelevant to this idsue
Macedonia deffinitly is not part of Greece… We – the Danes – dont accept the independance of FYROM, but also of the Greek “Republic”! Greece is kingdom with danish monarchs! ;)
The answer of this question is not easy, as many people think!
BUT, the answer is hiding in the history of 3 countries – Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia!
As we know – Macedonia is region in Greece, but it is also an independent country. The people, which live in FYROM, are thinking that they are succesors of Ancient Macedonia, with its gratest ruler – Alexander III The Great… But this is not true! In the Balkan Wars Macedonia was part of three different countries ant this means that it is also ETHNICAL teritorry of the selected countries… So the Republic of Macedonia does not excist, becouse it have not got population! And no one can not call it Macedonia! Better name would be – for example… Former Yugoslavic Republic of Balkan… But the name Macedonia IS NOT suitable!
Maro one last thing to help you understand…. in ancient times Sicily in southern Italy was Greek… in fact Sicily is a Greek name…. Sikelia… The Italians still use it and today’s inhabitants of the island are called Sicilians… Everybody knows though even the Sicilians and the Italians themselves that the ancient inhabitants of the island were most of them Greek… So the heritage and legacy the ancient inhabitants of Sicily left behind, all the scholars, philosophers thinkers and mathematicians, all of them belong culturally in the Greek heritage…Italians do not claim Greek heritage though they are happy to say that Greeks lived over there for centuries… They have kept the name Sicily, though they do not claim the Greek heritage of the ancient Sicilians that by today’s geography are Italians…. Back then though they were Greek…. That is what must happen with the Slavic Republic of Macedonia…. and f we make this clear then we can all move forward… The name is just a word, just a label…. the history heritage and legacy are not for sale though…. Hope that helps….
And not only that, the Pharoahs of Egypt were also Greek and it was from the Greek desire to build a memorial to their people that the Pyramids rose into the skies of that land.
Cleopatra and her brother, as well as the rest of them, were Greek. And they did not assimilate into Egyptian culture, they were incestuous in order to keep the level of their intelligence and culture in tact. Amazing people the Greeks. Look at their history in the round.
I have to say that this website is an absolute disgrace. There is so much nonsense on here its not funny! Oracles, champagne what are you all talking about. You are missing the very important issue – YOU ARE PLAYING WITH A WHOLE NATION’S IDENTITY. Shame on you!!! From what I can see there are about 3 macedonians who have posted comments on here. So this is not really a debate, but a platform for greeks and bulgarians to regurgitate their hateful comments and distortions of history and put simply to bash the Macedonian people. How dare you. All the greeks ever go on about is Ancient Greece and Alexander the great…. something which was thousands of years ago….get over it!!!! The reality is is that you greeks have just as little connection to the ancient macedonians!!Speaking of brainwashed do you really think you are all PURE ‘Hellenes’ – there is no such thing. Look through your history books, most recently you (just like the rest of the Balkans) were occupied for hundreds of years by the Turks there is nothing pure about you. The Greeks think they own everything, that they created everything, that they created ‘democracy’ and civlisation. But as you can see from the tirade in the comments above and out there in the world, they are nothing but a hyprocitcal, rasicst and fascist bunch of people. You can go back through history and put your spin on the version of events, but the reality is there are millions of Macedonian people out there who will tell you otherwise and who know their truth. WE ARE MACEDONIAN. And you are Greek. Yes there is a region in Greece called Macedonia, mind you it didn’t get this name until the 1980’s, why was that again??? Politics of course, but that is just a whole different issue which again Greece chooses to ignore. But the world needs to know that there are many macedonians in the ‘Greek’ Macedonia who are persecuted for identifying themselves as the real Macedonians and who are not even acknowledged by Greece as a minority. Can you tell me why?? GREECE (AND BULGARIA AS ITS PUPPET) ARE SCARED, that is what this whole dispute is about. They are hoping to forever conceal its mistreatment, ethnic cleansing and persecution of the Macedonian people. If the Macedonians are forced to change their name, then the whole world is effectively dismissing our most very basic human rights as well as wiping off the face of the planet the identity of millions of people. WHY IS THIS EVEN BEING DISCUSSED IN THE 21ST CENTURY. IF YOU GREEKS, BULGARIANS, ALBANIAN ETC WANT TO CALL YOURSELF MACEDONIAN TOO, GO RIGHT AHEAD, I WOULD HAVE NO ISSUE WITH THAT :)
You got nothing of what has been said above, only the negative comments.. Suits you I guess, otherwise it shatters your reality and your version of truth… Well without a will to compromise there will be no solution… If you are being offended by your neighbors’ attitude, your attitude also offends your neighbors… We are getting nowhere with this… The best of luck then with your version of reality….
No I’ve got everything that’s been said above, you are all rambling on about your so called ‘history’ being stolen, but you choose to ignore everyone elses. Can you answer my questions regarding the now ‘greek’ macedonia and what happened to the thousands of macedonians there. Why were the village names changed to Greek names? why were the macedonians forbidden to speak macedonian? Why were Macedonians forcibly expelled from their homes? What was the problem, if these people didn’t exist? This is TRUTH. This is HISTORY. My grandparents (amongst many others) lived through it. And Maro you are lunatic, how in the hell can you compare the use of the word ‘champagne’ to a country’s right and entitlement to self-dtermination…. ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
Not going to bother with this anymore. It is impossible to argue with crazy and a people who have a warped sense of their own importance in this world. You are all actually sick – to think that you thrive on belittling, bullying and degrading a country and its people. It just shows that you have no heart, no soul and no love. Karma is a wonderful thing, your day will come if it hasn’t already. Peace and love for the MACEDONIAN people always.
This is for you Stephanie:
“Classroom disinformation in the FYROM schools has reached proportions of epidemic occurrence where on all levels of education their country extends to Olympus Mountain, while in universities the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians is not debatable. According to the West Balkan Research, the government of the FYROM regulates research and Article 6 of the Law on the Scientific Research Activity (“Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia” Nos. 13/96 and 29/02) requires the only research on anything one may do is under the directive and auspices of the government. A person may not research the history of the ancient Macedonians concluding that they were Greeks because s/he would be subject to prosecution based on the above law and articles 178 and 179 of the Penal Code, which was enacted on 23 July 1996 and came into effect on 1 November 1996. Such laws allow the State to indict anyone for offending the “Macedonian” State similar to the Penal Code 301 of the Turkish Republic. Based on this law, the government of the FYROM has prosecuted many citizens of the FYROM, especially of Bulgarian and Greek descent. Fearing prosecution under the law, publishers routinely refuse to publish documents that might remotely offend the state. These laws have facilitated the appropriation of Sts. Cyril and Methodius during the last twenty years, although by all accounts the two Thessalonian brothers were Greeks.”
Excerpt from Marcus A. Templar’s “20 Years after Independence: Activities of the FYROM for the Appropriation of the Name “Macedonia”
So everyone who say anything else than you believe is crazy to you… nice way of seeing things…. you live in a bubble darling…. keep living in it…
the war that your grandparents lived was their war against the Greek state…. They lost, they faced the consequences of their betrayal to the Greek state… You played a game you lost and you had to face the consequences, just like the Greeks of Anatolia had to do the same..
If you do not want to lose, do not start a war… The Greek civil war was that between of the Greek national army with British forces, against Greek Communists and Slavophone Greeks and Slavomacedonians that were supported by Tito in order to cut of the northern Greek Macedonia region and create a new Korea in Europe… A north communist state, and a south capitalist pro-Western Greece…
The communists lost… they had to face the consequences… With the blessing of the western powers that wanted to keep Greece under western control all communists and slavophones who fought against the Greek state were expelled… Your ancestors were traitors to the Greek state… They suffered what they deserved… You got that?
Since when traitors deserve sympathy? Now back to your fantasy world!!
No i think you guys are crazy trying to be historians and politicians talking your rubbish…. And your comments just prove my point – what a rascist agressive and unreasonable bunch you are. And You have got to be kidding me. That is your propaganda! It was a CIVIL war. You still haven’t answered my questions. Why were the names of villages changed? Why were they forbidden to speak Macedonian? If they didn’t exist???????
Anyway ill say it again this so called debate is wholly one sided – you Greeks sitting on here spurting hate why dont you go get jobs no wonder your country is in turmoil- cause you love to blame your problems on everyone else and create issues which detract from the problems in your own backyards…. There are bigger problems going on in this world. Let the macedonians be and live in peace.
And Dora i could sit here and cut and paste excerpts of how the Greeks and Bulgarians have persecuted the macedonians. Your country doesn’t even acknowledge that it has minorities. The EU should be proud to have you.
Readers please do not believe the lies that are being put out on this website you cannot trust the Greeks- look what they did to get in the EU…. Throughout the history of time Everyone has always wanted a piece of Macedonia, you will never get what’s left of her and you will never tell me who I am and where I came from. I am MACEDONIAN simple as that. I don’t live in a fantasy world cause there are hundreds of countries who recognize me as such :)
The entire world is laughing at us. The international media are describing Skopje as the largest Disneyland in the world. We are the only country in the world that paid EUR 250 000 for three willows. They were named by PM Gruevski Faith, Hope, and Love. As you know, hope is supposed to be the last to die but here Hope was the first to wither,” Andrey Zherenovski told the protesters.
Christos, the French would be completely horrified with your line of arguement. if it was applied it to the Champagne word. The French would say “NON”. Just as the French would say “NON” to your line of arguement, so the Greeks must say OXI to any Helenization of the Vardarski. Who are the Clowns and buffoons in the Greek government and the Greek bureaucracy who believe in the botched Hellinization of the Vardaski. This flawed and defective Greek policy since the 1940s has got Greece no-where and is a serious threat to the sovereignty of Greece. My Greek compatriots and I certainly don’t want the Vardarski to be Hellenized with our Greek culture , STEALING and PLUNDERING Greek words and symbols like the Greek word Macedonia to define themselves.
are we trying to sell champagne or any other product or get to a solution to a problem that is been going on for more than 20 years?
A few thoughts if I may:
The ancient Macedonians spoke Greek, worshiped the Greek gods
of Olympus ( a Greek mountain) and they took part in the
“Greeks only” Olympic games.
The capital of ancient Macedonia, “Pella” is in Greece.
The tombs of the great Macedonian kings in “Vergina”, are in Greece.
The holly city for the Macedonians, “Dion”, is in Greece.
The birth place of Aristotle, “Stageira”, is in Greece.
Macedonia’s largest modern city, “Thessaloniki” is in Greece.
The largest and most important part of ancient Macedonia is in Greece.
No matter what Tito told to the Vardarski,
Is it possible for Macedonia to exist outside of Greece?
And the French aren’t protecting champagne for national pride or protecting their identity, they are protecting it because they want French wine makers to have healthy profits, which has nothing to do with the Macedonia name dispute. But again, rational thought left this debate a long time ago.
Jokera, the Croats slipped through and are getting in. The rest of ex-Yu will get in as well. Europe is too invested politically to let the region slide into war, and as someone who follows the Balkans pretty closely, with Bosnia still an open wound, the Albanian question looming over both Serbia, Montenegro, and FYROM, without European integration the region can maybe hold out for 10 years, 15 tops before a new war starts. The only thing European politicians don’t know yet, is how to explain this to their voters. But the die has already been cast and it’s a matter of “when”, not “if”
Does anyone else think it’s sad that a stupid argument over a countries name which makes no difference to anything has (currently) 167 more comments on it than an day older discussion about funding European aid to the poorest most deprived parts of the world?
@ Christos and Jovan, it is the principle that this precedent has set internationally. And that principle is the Name and Word – Champagne that has being protected by the French in all the courts of the world, because it originates from the French region of Champagne. So when this principle is applied to the Macedonia Name and Word- it is Greek in origin, comes from Greece and must be protected from any use by the Vardarski!!!!
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS
Sorry, but really don`t think so.
Gosh guys, do you consider the Slav population of Macedonia to be Bulgarian? I`m shocked! ;) And I`m asking only the Greeks, the Serbs and the Albanians, not the Bulgarians or the Macedonians!
@Jokera , as I said before it is the principle and the precedent that has been set internationally by the word Champagne for France. And that principle is the Name and Word – Champagne that has being protected by the French in all the courts of the world, because it originates from the French region of Champagne. So when this principle is applied to the Macedonia Name and Word- it is Greek in origin, comes from Greece and must be protected from any use by the Vardarski!!!!
@Jokera , as I said before it is the principle and the precedent that has been set internationally by the word Champagne for France. And that principle is the Name and Word – Champagne that has being protected by the French in all the courts of the world, because it originates from the French region of Champagne. So when this principle is applied to the Macedonia Name and Word- it is Greek in origin, comes from Greece and must be protected from any use by the Vardarski!!!
@Maro, we Bulgarians freely use Makedonia in everyday talk. How can you stop us? Sue every single one of us? Put a guard to control everyone of us? Strange concept is to claim a copyright on a word. And the people in Macedonia (I`ll never call them Macedonians ;) ) put the stress on a different syllabus than you Greeks. And we put the stress on yet another syllabus, so it is not the same word. What about the word “NE”? You use it for “yes”, we use it for “NO” and I don`t know what is the meaning in Macedonian language. Ha-ha-ha! BTW I like all these problems that you create to them! Go on, I support you Greek friends and neighbours! :D
Can we claim copyright on the word “NE” ? :D
Thankyou Jokera, European solidarity.
@Stephanie.. Thank you for proving my point of the irrational agressive propaganda against Greece by FYROM. The name changed for the exact reasons why the Irish changed the name of Kingstown back to the original of Dun Laoghaire.. The same way the Greeks changed the name of Selanik back to Thessaloniki.. Both nations were occupied for ccenturies and many names were changed… Or for the same reasons the Bulgarians changed the name of Philipoupolis to Plodiv and the Turks the name of Constantinople to Istabul… To match their language and culture… As for the minorities don’t even go there as you have a far worse record… The Greek minority in Fyrom was forced to change their names and abandin their
language by Tito… greece has recognised it Muslim minority at the Gypsy minority and they both are represented in the Parliament
keep on trying greeks,you are nothing for us macedonians we are patient people and we will eventually get our land,history back.you can also have your pontus immigrants back as well.
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS
My comment has been removed Moderators? why? my comment was provocative and the Real Macedonian’s comment is not offensive towards the Greek people? Shame on you!
As for you ‘Real Macedonian’, as your nation came to life by certain political powers beware not to become exinct by those powers that historically allowed your existence!
@Stephanie: The Greeks changed the names of many towns for the exact reason that the Irish changed the name of Kingstown back to its original name of Dun Laoghaire. So the original name of Thessaloniki replaced the Turkish version of Selanik.. Both nations were conquered and under a foreign occupation for centuries so naturally many names were changed over the years.. Or if you’d like for the exact reasons of why the Bulgarians changed the original name of Philippoupolis to Plodiv, and the Turks the name of Constantinople to Istabul.. To match their languages and culture….
As for the minorities issue, do not even go there… Because you have an even worse record… Many Greeks were forced to changed their surnames to become more Slavic, and were refused to speak their own language.. In Greece at least the minorities are recognized and they are represented in the Greek Parliament. The minorities of the Gypsy population, the Muslim population, either they are Pomaks or Turks and even the tiny minority of the Slavomacedonians who live in Greece have their own party, the Rainbow party and they can vote for it.. They do not get into the Parliament because as I told you above they can gather only 2-3,000 votes…
I am speaking of the Greek minority in FYROM of course…..
@ Stephanie: A civil war between who? The so called civil war was imposed on us by Stalin through Bulgaria and Serbia. Stalin wanted to extend his communist bow to the Aegean… Please do me a favour and do some serious studying of history before you embarass yourself. You speak english, I’m sure you can find many books on the internet that will enlighten you regarding the so called civil war in Greece.
As for the changing of names you keep saying, who changed what? Skopjans call Thessaloniki as Solun, but what does Solun mean? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Do you know what Thessaloniki means in Greek? Thessalon-niki = victory over the Thessalians.
They say ignorance is bliss, but in your case it’s a curse.. I’m very sorry they brainwashed you this way, but Macedonians you are not.
A very good book to open some eyes in here comes from a British historian, of Jewish ancestry.. So there is no favoritism for the Greeks and their cause… Please find on Amazon and buy it… Mark Mazower. Salonica: City of Ghosts…. Eh Dora? ;o) Come on “Macedonians”.. it is your history, find out about it….
A great read indeed with some inconvenient truths for everyone involved. Unfortunately, Christos, it is impossible to un-wash a brainwashed mind.
As for our fellow Europeans, they cannot understand how important this issue is to us. I don’t blame them, it’s not THEIR issue. A little history reading wouldn’t hurt them though.
Macedonia is GREEK FYROM should adopt a name that it suits it’s self determination without Copy/Paste !!!
? have a solution. Why don’t we go back before 1991,- when Skopja didn’t exist- and devide Skopjan people throughout the countries they decide they want to live? Let’s not forget the religious side of the matter. In Greece we are Christian Orthodox. We’d be happy to accept any Skopjans who want to live in Greece, respecting our laws, religion and history. Then they would be free to feel Macedonians.
The name issue will be resolved when the FYROM decides to write their own real history instead of fabricating one!!!
The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the “Macedonians”, who have had no history, need one. They reside in a territory once part of a famous ancient kingdom, which has borne the Macedonian name as a region ever since and was called ”Macedonia” for nearly half a century as part of Yugoslavia. And they speak a language now recognized by most linguists outside Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece as a south Slavic language separate from Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian, and Bulgarian. Their own so-called Macedonian ethnicity had evolved for more than a century, and thus it seemed natural and appropriate for them to call the new nation “Macedonia” and to attempt to provide some cultural references to bolster ethnic survival.
The name issue will be resolved when the FYROM decides to write their own real history instead of fabricating one!!!
The name of the state is the first step.
Then they want to claim land from Greece. If you search on the web, you will see fake maps including Greek land inside their frontiers. If I’m not wrong, this mean war.
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY MODERATORS
I didn’t read the comments, because there’s frankly too many and I don’t really give a **** about your stands on the matter. Here are the facts:
– The territory on which Macedonia resides has been for the better part of Greece’s existence known as Macedonia.
– Alexander the Great, son of Filip II of Macedonia, were Macedonians that accepted the Greek teachings and language, due to their sophistication at the time. Both of them were related to neither Greek nor the current Macedonian population.
– The northern province of Greece, that bares the same name as Greece’s northern neighbor, Macedonia, was a territory given to Greece with the Bucharest convention, to be used for a period of 100 years. A period that is to end this year.
– Macedonian politicians won’t give up the name fight, due to the nationalism principles and spoils they reap from people prone to HC nationalism (in the form of support in elections, ofc).
– Greece is probably afraid of the territories that it stands to lose and we always have to consider the pride that they never admit to have in abundance.
In conclusion: Capitalism sucks, bureaucracy can suck it and our politicians should be publicly humiliated.
The SQ, simplified.
Pls don’t respond to this comment, I will not answer your questions, nor read your responses or any witty comment you might have, I just don’t give a ****.
Have a nice day.
@????? ?????????, it seems IGNORANCE IS BLISS for you!!!!! Typical Vardarski. Florin Curta – a 6th-century Byzantine chronicler, states that the Vardarski ‘homeland’ was north of the Danube and not in the Belorussian-Ukrainian borderlands. As Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that Sklavenoithe settled the western Balkans, becoming one of the forerunners of the linguistic group that became the Bosnians, Serbs and Croats, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern and southern regions (roughly speaking), becoming one of the ancestors of the Bulgarians and the Vardarski.
Florin Curta – a 6th-century Byzantine chronicler, states that the Vardarski ‘homeland’ was north of the Danube and not in the Belorussian-Ukrainian borderlands. As Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that Sklavenoithe settled the western Balkans, becoming one of the forerunners of the linguistic group that became the Bosnians, Serbs and Croats, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern and southern regions (roughly speaking), becoming one of the ancestors of the Bulgarians and the Vardarski.
According to the truth, there is no “greek” ethnicity…. Modern “greece” is created under old europe in 1820. The first king was German : Kaiser Otto Von Bawaria, and all government was Italian ( Giovanni Kapodistria ) ; German ( Von Maurer , Von Amansperg or something )…
Modern “greece” is child of old europe, and here is the proof…
From 1983 – 1947 Modern “greece” gain lot of land with help with old europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_Greece_expansion_1832-1947-en.svg
There was not a single person that called himself “Greek” before 1832.
Greece is the biggest lie in the history of Mankind and modern “greeks” are not connected with the ancient at all…
Now they have the power of Veto for EU and Nato ( even they lost the dispute at International Court of Justice )…. and Europe is supporting them …
We are and we will always be Macedonians, and modern “Greek” state someday will must recognize all rights of Macedonians living under occupation from 1913.
Macedonia forever !
Maro, Florin Curta is not a 6th century Byzantine chronicler. He is a modern writer. I assume you wanted to quote the name of a Byzantine chronicler that Curta refered. Really, why bother with the FYROM’s slavs. I read the comment just before you and i understood perfectly why FYROM slavs are living in a parallel universe with no clue about reality.
The only true name for fyrom is VARDARSKA.
Kleoniki, while I don’t disagree with what you said about the name dispute you are wrong about the demographics. the Albanian birthrate is down to 2.1 children for this generation, and a lot of them have emigrated. In fact, the most recent census was abandoned last September because the Albanian population was likely to be below 20%. It was 23% before. The demographic situation is now stabilized.
The truth is Macedonians are Slavs that invaded the Eastern Europe. They adopted the Greek name and symbols because they did not have any to show.
This topic is now closed for comments. It has now been over a week since we published it, and the discussion is becoming difficult to moderate (and starting to repeat itself). We have collected over 250 comments, so we will now organise interviews with relevant politicians to get their reactions to the arguments you have made in this thread.
It’s obvious that the Macedonia name dispute is something that many of you are passionate about, so we will return to this topic soon with some responses to your comments.
It’s FYROM. Macedonia is the region in Northern Greece, the birthplace of Alexander the Great.
Never!!! We’re gonna quarrel like it’s 1899!!!!!!
You mean Skopje of Vardaska?
Greece is in a systemic recession which likely will not get better with the latest bailout conditions and will cause generational poverty. Macedonia is a de facto one party police state with a very thinly disguised interethnic problem which could flare into violence at any time. So obviously, the biggest issue for both is the etiology of the macedonian name and whether Alexander was an ethnic Greek or a non Greek who came to accept Hellenic culture 2300 years ago. Typical balkan idiocy.
Possible that it be named the Republic of Vardar-Macedon?
If they back off Macedonia, then yes it can be resolved. Macedonia is greek and shouldn’t be claimed by any country. Would the Americans accept if England claimed that New York is British? Or if England claimed they were really America and not the U.S….? I don’t think so…
As long as greek vanity and madness will not be resolved, the dispute will still exist. Greek Makedonia and slavic Makedonia exists because of balkan wars, when Yugoslavia and Greece increased their teritories (for instance Greece had allways north in Thessaly). The tragic fact is the vlachs assimilation in Balkans and very strange is the penssion payed by Greece to all vlachs in Albania, FYROM and Bulgaria to declare themselves greeks, even in bankruptcy or crisis conditions.
This name belong, means and is part off Greece for thousand years. How is this possible even to accept what the FYROM is doing and how its even possible to name this a “Debating” from a democracy rated Europe! So that means that the only solution is that FYROM will named their self’s something else but not FYROM(because has Macedonia in it) and NOT Macedonia at all.Also this country has to change his Flag because the flags symbol is Greek and Macedonian off course. Nobody has the right to steal names and symbols from another country.
Alexander the Great: “Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians.” Pseudo-Kallisthenes, Historia Alexandri Magni, 1.15.1-4
– Alexander the Great: “Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers.” Historia Alexandri Magni of Pseudo-Kallisthenes, 1.37.9-13
– Alexander the Great addressing his troops prior to the Battle of Issus: “There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay – and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it.” Anabasis Alexandri by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 7
– Alexander’s letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea: “Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas (Greece) and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you.” Anabasis Alexandri by Arrian; translated as Anabasis of Alexander by P. A. Brunt, for the “Loeb Edition” Book II 14, 4
– Alexander the Great: “If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic (Greek), to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos.” On the Fortune of Alexander by Plutarch, 332 a-b
– Alexander addressing the dead Hellenes (the Athenian and Thebean Greeks) of the Battle of Chaeronea: “Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions.” Historiae Alexandri Magni by Quintus Curtius Rufus
– Alexander I of Macedon, ancestor of Alexander the Great, member of the Argead dynasty: “Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably.” Herodotus, Histories, 5.20.4, Loeb
– Alexander I of Macedon, ancestor of Alexander the Great, member of the Argead dynasty, when he was admitted to the Olympic games: “Men of Athens… In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise, that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days’ provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Hellas in my desire to declare to you Mardonius’ intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian.” Herodotus, Histories, 9.45 (ed. A. D. Godley)
– Strabo: “And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece.” Strabo. VII, Frg. 9 (Loeb, H.L. Jones)
– Herodotus: “Now that these descendants of Perdiccas (Perdiccas I of Macedon, King of Macedonia from about 700 BCE to about 678 BCE) are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.” Herodotus, Book 5, Ch. 22, 1 (Loeb)
– Josephus: “And when the book of Daniel was showed to Alexander the Great, where Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended; and as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present.” Josephus 11.8.5
– Arrian: “There a man appeared to them wearing a Greek cloak and dressed otherwise in the Greek fashion, and speaking Greek also. Those Macedonians who first sighted him said that they burst into teers, so strange did it seem after all these miseries to see a Greek, and to hear Greek spoken.” Arrian: Anabasis Alexandri: Book VIII (Indica)
– Titus Livius: “The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day.” Titus Livius, Liber XXXI, 29, 15
There is nothing to resolve !!!
Easy tell the Greek to stop it or no more welfare.
The unprecedented propaganda and brain washing imposed to a whole postwar generation at the Skopje region (FYROM), starting from very young shool children, claiming that Alexander, his father Philipp etc were not Greeks, these names are not Greek, their language was not Greek, it was their modern speaking Bulgarian idiom language: “Makedonski” instead, claiming Greek territory, claiming that Thessaloniki or Pella should be their capital and much more, effortlessly refer to the support of very powerful international centers and “commissions” for geostrategic development , with economic, cultural, political and even religious motives.
Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe like so meny othrers like Achaians, Ionians, Dorians. Each one of them believed to same Greek Gods, and had their own Greek dialects.
Alexander the Great spoke Greek, had Greek name like his father Philipp II, and Greek education by his teacher Aristotle. Through his campaign he created the Hellenistic era, which is the origins of western civilization. He introduced the common Greek language (koine) to the whole known world. How would be ever possible to dispute over his Hellenic ethnicity…?
The policy of falsifing the Greek history about Alexander’s Macedonia intending to annex Northern Greece’s territory, was first introdused during the cold war, by Yugoslavia’s Tito.
Tito changed the name of the present day FYROM region from “Vardarska” to “Macedonia”.
In 1944, the US Secretary of Government Roosevelt, Edward Riley Stetinious (who had served in the same position also the government of the next president Harry S. Truman), in a confidential memorandum dated December 26, 1944, to US diplomatic missions in the Balkans, not hesitated to call the whole thing “unfounded demagogy”…
STATE DEPARTMENT
Foreign Relations Vol VIII
WashingtonD.C.
Circular Airgram
(868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers*
The following is for your information and general guidance but not for any positive action at this time.
The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principal from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Governement considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “fatherland” or Macedonian “national conciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggresive intentions against Greece. Sign STETINIOUS
Of course it could be resolved as long as FYROM authorities will be willing to resolve it. Obviously cannot be named Macedonia as the biggest part of the region belongs to Greece and of course is a significant part of the ancient history and national heritage.
Even the question is wrong there is no country recognised with the name Macedonia, there is only Former Yugoslavia Republic Of Macedonia (FYROM), so retype the question in order to have the proper answer !!!
War ?
Maybe stop the brainwashing of an entire population in FYROM. Their only ally would be Greece but they chose Turkey as their protector. The result is what we see. End the dictatorship in FYROM .
UN has had a D2-level Special enjoy since 90’s for the name issue – with office and assistants 😀
What if Macedonia decides to call itself Greece? That would be real fun! I think it’s okay if it calls itself Albania. The Greek government should at least give them a suggestion. What name do Greeks like?
Greece can give up its pig-headed resistance any day.
Really shallow propaghanda of you, using the name “Macedonia” in the question of the debate, thus manipulating its outcome. Even the entertainment event of Eurovision Song Contest is more serious by using the name officially accepted by the EU Institutions. (FYROM). I expected from you to follow these institutions.
There’s a game, played right in front of our eyes, and we trust the media to deliver the truth. Have you asked the macedonians how they feel about their surrounding countries? For instance let me tell you this – both Greece and Serbia had their influence on the macedonian people in the past decades, however macedonian are split in two- those who feel bulgarian and those who let themselves believe the foreigners. The past decade the higher ups of Macedonia did everything to erase the common history between bulgarians and macedonians, including media attacks, history books, history classes in schools. Nobody gave up the on the macedonian people, one of the beautiful bulgarian songs is called “Македонско девойче”, you’re the prettiest of them all. Money, power and foreign interests split the two countries, filled with one nation. To whomever reads this, make your research on the nation, on their culture and believes, before you start talking about politics, borders, money and other insignificant things that have no soul.
How can you get an answer by making a neutral question while you have already taken position?…
Can someone please explain: are the Macedonians Slavs or are they an Irano-European people?
Greece will never accept Macedonia. The reason behind this is that Greece fears reparation requests from the ancestors of people expelled from Greece after the population exchage between Greece and Turkey in 1923. Since the “Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations” was signed between Turkey and Greece, the ancestors of those inhabitants of the Ottoman empire which moved north, into modern Macedonia, don’t recognize the treaty..
The solution is really simple – all FYROM needs to do is add ONE word to their name [eg Slavic Republic of Macedonia, or something similar]. To call itself as “Republic of Macedonia” implies it is the ONLY Macedonia, which in reality it isn’t. Nearly half of Macedonia [the region] is within Greece, and the rest is in FYROM and Bulgaria.
For this I admire Macedonian government they stood against any pressure Rational or not rational, anyone can have a view of their own so if they call their state Macedonia and themselves macedonian the other one should agree … Truly Impressive!!! Integrity exists !
Childish. Does Greece refuse to acknowledge The city of Athens in the USA too?
It’s fyrom and not Macedonia. Who is searching to be someone by using others identity and history,is only a crook… It’s like someone is searching to take off all yourmoney from your bank account by using your name and foto.. . As simple as that…. Macedonia is hellas and hellas is Macedonia for ever
The question is unacceptable.
As long as greek vanity and madness will not be resolved, the dispute will still exist. Greek Makedonia and slavic Makedonia exists because of balkan wars, when Serbia and Greece increased their teritories (for instance Greece had allways north in Thessaly). The tragic fact is the vlachs assimilation in Balkans and very strange is the penssion payed by Greece to all vlachs in Albania, FYROM and Bulgaria to declare themselves greeks, even in bankruptcy or crisis conditions.
North Macedonia?
Slagedonia it will be well good name fore them
Simple. It will take common sense instead of obstinate posturing.
Macedonia is Greek. This can be solved if FYROM stops claiming other nations’ history. Their former President (and others) admitted this long time ago as well.
FYROM forever!!
Macedonia is a geographical region that nowadays is in 4 countries – Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Albania. The name of one country does not matter at all. The main problem for republik of Macedonia not to be part of Europe is not the official name, nor the official language that is claimed to be actually bulgarian dialect. The main problem is democracy and human rights violation and lack of free market economy.
This is the stupidest conflict ever. It’s like the two fighting kingdoms over which side to break the egg in gullivers travels.
black money 4 politicians ……..there alot of things going on there that the people still dont know whats happening ……george soros country …..geographic will change in 10 years albanic uprising …..
Albanian macedonia
A pseudo-problem can not be resolved.
there could be space for compromise if Skopje accepts a supplementary adjective as part of the country’s name such as “Vardar Macedonia”.. as long as they insist in bare “macedonia” or even Republic of, there can be no solution..
yes to MONKEYDONIA !!!!!
This is the story with few words (history) :
Filippos (Alexander’s father) have many wife’s … ONLY ONE OF THEM was from north , with this wife have NO BABYS …. The kingdom was in today GREECE , THE GRAVE IS IN GREECE , he’s sun was Greek
WHERE THE F****K PEOPLE YOU SEE THAT SKOPJA CAN NAMED MACEDONIA ???????
Name should not be the reason at all. No one would confuse Republic of Macedonia with Greek counties of Macedonia…
It is sill, reallz.
FYROM’s geographical based name is Verdaska.. Macedonia is a geographical part mainly of Greece, but the main issue is that Macedonia is part of Greek history and thats why those people can’t do this.. They cant steal Greek history and present it as their own.. Verdaskans/FYROMians are a blend of Albanians and Bulgarians and they are fortunate enough to have their own country..
Macedonia???
FYROM*****
Macedonia? Europeans should be concerned, worried, with Germany.
They are not Macedonian, they are slavic-bulgars !! All the europe know that.
There won’t be an end to the dispute unless the macedonian politicians and historians stop spreading lies created by the USSR and accept the truth. Macedonia is a mixed region where mainly bulgarians live, but also serbs and greeks. The lanugage is a bulgarian dialect. There was no autonomous medieval macedonian state apart from the small feudal holdings like e.g. Ohrid, Prosek, that were always a part of one of the larger kingdoms in the region. The region was mainly part of Bulgaria, but also the Byzantine empire and Serbia had control over it during some periods. The FYROM was created artificially by USSR at the end of WW2 to divide and subjugate the Balkan states easier.
According to Herodotus, Macedonia got its name from the the people that were living there. Those people were known as Macedni (Μακενδοί) that translates to someone who’s tall (μακενδός). Herodotus has also recorded that these people were basically Dorians, one of the four major Greek ethnē into which Hellenes of the ancient times considered themselves divided (Perseus Encyclopedia, 2006). Apart from what is stated above, Macedonia was the northern part of Ancient Greece. The first macedonian state was introduced around the 7th century B.C with Alexander the Great as their respectful leader. During the years of the Roman Empire, Macedonia was considered a suburb of the empire form 146 until around 284-395 A.C. Later on Macedonia became part of the Byzantine Empire and then fell into the hands of the Ottoman Empire. Historically speaking Macedonians were Greeks and not a separate non-greek race with its own territory. Having all these in mind I can’t help but disagree with FYROM about officially acquiring the name Macedonia. Macedonia, even as a word, is Greek and should remain this way. It’s better for states to create their own history instead of manipulating the history of other nations.
Their country is Called Vardarska.
It’s FYROM dear debating Europe
https://youtu.be/hMHYtvAmC6U
No! No, because Macedonia do not exist! Is an artificial creation – FYROM without any sense: not enough territory, no ethnicity, no language, no history/past- no present- logically no future. …So, all dispute about nonsense- are nonsense! Simple not?☺
https://youtu.be/o_gjBAhak18
North Macedonia or FYROM!!
Compleatly unimportant issue now, that there are stuck all the refugees at greek-“macedonian” borders, without shelter, water and food!!!! Be concerned about important issues, not nonsense like names!!!
Yes, of course, there is a Dutch Brabant and a Belgian Brabant, there is even a French Flanders, Dutch and Belgian Flanders and a Dutch and German Frisia. No reason why there can not be a Greek and Slavic Macedonia.
Can we name our country USA just because we want to?
It’s their own problem.
But i think Greece could think that Macedonia (the country) it’s free to decide the name.
Well not because it suggests territorial pretensions to Greece or Bulgaria, perhaps calling themselves “Vardar Macedonia” or stuff like that could be more reasonable
Macedonia is Macedonia. Period. But I cannot believe that in 21 century there are still people who would destroy other people. I am Macedonian, be it by territory or ethnicity this is what I am. No territory hungry Albanian or historically inapt Greek or Bulgarian can change that. The reason for not solving the dispute is exactly in the comments made by people here.
IMO Greece should back off with it’s claims against Macedonia. Especially since the Macedonians accepted for their country name to be FYROM – it’s definitely quite descriptive of what it refers to. The whole debate is becoming ridiculous by now.
.
It doesn’t matter what it’s called, you can’t dump your Schengen migrants there.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/21/uk-europe-migrants-macedonia-idUKKCN0QQ0M120150821
So much hatred and narrow mindedness from all sides.. The issue will be so easily resolved if people used common sense, from both countries. A) the problem is NOT the name. Greece is wrong to not allow other nations to use Ancient Greek names. Sicily was also Greek once. Sikelia is the name that the Greeks gave to the region. Yet today is Italian. The inhabitants of the region though they are proud of their Greek heritage they do not claim it for themselves. And here is where FYROM is totally wrong and stupid. They can use the name as long they do not try to appropriate Greek heritage and history as their own, though they can absolutely be proud of their Greek heritage and promote it. Macedonia was a Greek Kingdom of the antiquity. They are gone! Their legacy remains with Greece, but the region of Macedonia has three main ethnic groups today: Greeks, Albanians and Slavs/Bulgarians. They can use the name and be proud of their Greek Macedonian heritage because they have it. They are wrong to present it as their own. Just as the Italians of South Italy don’t present as their own their Greek heritage, rather acknowledge it as part of their overall one. Simple thing.. We can totally share the name… And solve the issue and move on united as a region to work for the betterment of the Balkans and our countries… Amen
So much hatred and narrow mindedness from all sides.. The issue will be so easily resolved if people used common sense, from both countries. A) the problem is NOT the name. Greece is wrong to not allow other nations to use Ancient Greek names. Sicily was also Greek once. Sikelia is the name that the Greeks gave to the region. Yet today is Italian. The inhabitants of the region though they are proud of their Greek heritage they do not claim it for themselves. And here is where FYROM is totally wrong and stupid. They can use the name as long they do not try to appropriate Greek heritage and history as their own, though they can absolutely be proud of their Greek heritage and promote it. Macedonia was a Greek Kingdom of the antiquity. They are gone! Their legacy remains with Greece, but the region of Macedonia has three main ethnic groups today: Greeks, Albanians and Slavs/Bulgarians. They can use the name and be proud of their Greek Macedonian heritage because they have it. They are wrong to present it as their own. Just as the Italians of South Italy don’t present as their own their Greek heritage, rather acknowledge it as part of their overall one. Simple thing.. We can totally share the name… And solve the issue and move on united as a region to work for the betterment of the Balkans and our countries… Amen
Macedonia of Philip and Mongolia of Kublai Han are nice names too.
Macedonia of Philip and Mongolia of Kublai Han are nice names too.
This entire situation is idiotic. Both Greece and Macedonia should eb told by the EU to grow up.
I thought everyone is allready calling them macedonians except greeks.
Driton Mehmeti
I see many comments here, but no one is telling the truth about Greece, search for Bavarian King Otto and watch the documentary about the 1843 revolution. And please someone tell me how come of all the 196 countries in the world only one cannot call her self how she wants, and why is that? Maybe all of you are affraid of something, maybe its time for you the people of the world to let go of your ego and start growing spiritualy, we are all one.
when Skopjans accept that they are slavs and not descendants of Alexander the Great and Philip II
History is history. One can look at it from all points of view but nothing changes the fact that FYROM was just one attached part of Macedonia. The fact that the president Gligorof himself stated clearly that FYROM has nothing to do with MACEDONIA should have been enough to settle this matter. Political interests, mainly of the U.S. lead to the fact that history is overrun. Everybody says that one should have the right to name himself as he wishes . Shoud this also be applied when a state which did not exist a century ago tries to create a history for himself so it can increase his recognition by copying and lateron asking for sole ownership of the names, legal rights etc.?
.
Whatever happens just don’t let the incompetent EU get involved, remember what they did in Ukraine.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/21/uk-europe-migrants-macedonia-idUKKCN0QQ0M120150821
The problem is the following: both sides claim historical heritage, which belongs to neither of them.
It’s not fully resolved, just some secondary issues remain, namely what name Greece can call its next door neighbour (won’t be solved) and by which acceptable (for Greece) name, entry to NATO-EU can be achieved, since Greece has veto power in both. Otherwise it’s pretty much solved. Only pit fall is in case of a major security crisis in the area, which case RM might give in in its need to seek snap membership and protection.
it should never be resolved so the caontry can be saved in this way from being occuppied bu EU nato satanists
SCOPIA !!!
NO MACEDONIA !!!
Entendam-se!
Not at all Macedonia!Macedonian civilization is hellenic,not Slav,Albanian or Gipsy,Turkish!!!!This is clear everywhere!
Befor somebody answers I think he should see the very analytic servey by National Geographic in the link below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q36tSlVBlvU
Macedonia or Makedonija is Macedonia… and Greece can jump around how much they wont. Macedonia stays Macedonia. PS: I am not Macedonian neither I live there.
Macedonia is Greece. The people who live in FYROM are not macedonians. I have nothing against them. But they are not macedonians.
Macedonia should call Greece the Hellenic Republic of Endless Debt until Greecce drops it’s claims on the country’s name. See of would that work. Seriously the dispute is so childlike that it has turned out into an atrocity regarding the taxpayers money spent on diplomacy to solve this issue. Don’t you have better things to do like tackling unemployment?
Macedonia it’s the name of a region in Greece. And then there’s the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia. That’s it!
the mane of the mentioned country is FYROM , ignorant debatingeurope.eu , open a history book will you ?
Tito Slavs are not Greeks. Full stop.
Se la Macedonia e un peso per la Grecia e se è rimasto solo quel programma da risolvere allora significa che la Grecia non ha altri problemi da risolvere!?ma secondo me la Grecia in questo momento ha ben altro da risolvere,ed il problema del nome della Macedonia non li risolve i suoi problemi!!
The real issue is not on the name per se.Its that if they are allowed to be called that,they will continue their propaganda and baseless claims that Greek Macedonia is rightfully theirs,that it has been stolen by them and that they need to *liberate* it from the occupying greeks.
There is more to this than just differences of historical value.
Macedonia is Greek ! End of story !
There’s no way to accept it ! Macedonia is Greek , like it or not ! People from fyrom desperately try to find a page in history from nowhere !
ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ no Macedonia
Annexation.
Silly problem. In belgium the province luxemburg is next to the country luxemburg. You just have to specific about what you mean. The possible discussions on claims etc..are independent of the name of the country macedonia. Grow up. You are showing your very small side in this way.
Macedonian population is 50% Albanian and just 8% Greeks !
I don’t see a problem here. If they want call them republic of blablabla, they can call them so. And I think that focus of Greek politics should be on paying back their loans then on malicious and unfriendly behaviour.
Former Yugoslavian Banovina of Vardar
Identity is a fluctuating matter, this has been going on for along time and has reached a stalemate.
Things change, even without consent, just look at the Balkans.
I suspect this is about power, therefore control, rather than sovereignty…I can see this issue going round and round in circles for along time yet.
There is no such thing as Macedonia as a country. It was artificially created by the Bulgarian Communist Party some 70 years ago. Macedonia is a former region of Bulgaria and it is/has/and always will be part of the Bulgarian territory, not Greek, not Serbian, not anything else then Bulgarian. Half of the people there know that it’s a fact, history tells that it’s a fact. But now, they are a separate country and it doesn’t matter if i like it or not, so let them call them selfs whatever they think they are, or want to be.
There is no such thing as Macedonia as a country. It was artificially created by the Bulgarian Communist Party some 70 years ago. Macedonia is a former region of Bulgaria and it is/has/and always will be part of the Bulgarian territory, not Greek, not Serbian, not anything else then Bulgarian. Half of the people there know that it’s a fact, history tells that it’s a fact. But now, they are a separate country and it doesn’t matter if i like it or not, so let them call them selfs whatever they think they are, or want to be.
Former Banovina my ASS
Former Banovina my ASS
It’s not 50% Albanian, the majority are Bulgarians, even if some of them don’t know and realize it, cuz of the propaganda that is currently being brainwashing the population for a decade and more.
It’s not 50% Albanian, the majority are Bulgarians, even if some of them don’t know and realize it, cuz of the propaganda that is currently being brainwashing the population for a decade and more.
The problem is going to continue,like forever, so no more comments necessary. It’s like believing there is a country of Kosovo, when in fact there is non. Again, a former region of Serbia. The root of everything messed up here, and the cause of all disputes is the former Yugoslavian Republic. Back then everyone was everyone(they where one nation), and when it collapsed the dividing of the former republic was chopping of a strait line of this country, and that country and etc. So when a group of people where left out of their former country, and thrown into another one, of course it will create problems.
The problem is going to continue,like forever, so no more comments necessary. It’s like believing there is a country of Kosovo, when in fact there is non. Again, a former region of Serbia. The root of everything messed up here, and the cause of all disputes is the former Yugoslavian Republic. Back then everyone was everyone(they where one nation), and when it collapsed the dividing of the former republic was chopping of a strait line of this country, and that country and etc. So when a group of people where left out of their former country, and thrown into another one, of course it will create problems.
lol! Please study some history. I am Greek and I leave in the same ground that Μέγας Αλέξανδρος (Alexander the Great ) was brought up just like his father Φίλιππος and our ancestors. He worshipped the Greek God’s and spoke Greek. All of the Slavic nations should actually be really greatful to us that we created their alphabet (If you don’t know google Cyril and Methodius)and are now capable of arguing about MY heritage.
lol! Please study some history. I am Greek and I leave in the same ground that Μέγας Αλέξανδρος (Alexander the Great ) was brought up just like his father Φίλιππος and our ancestors. He worshipped the Greek God’s and spoke Greek. All of the Slavic nations should actually be really greatful to us that we created their alphabet (If you don’t know google Cyril and Methodius)and are now capable of arguing about MY heritage.
Macedonia?
Is that the subject now?!?
I really think “Debate Europe” should start… err… debating Europe!
More enlargement ideas and borderless stupidity??? No thanks, I already have plenty of that back home…
Our Europe is in a big mess… the EU is in a mess… and you guys talk about… Macedonia?
We could talk about the USA, China, all the so called “BRICS”, etc etc etc… we could talk about the entire world… and this would be called “Debating World” or “Debating the whole f… planet”!
With all the mess in Europe, all the problems, all the EU issues to take care of…
Enough.
So sorry, I don’t care about what’s happening outside European borders anymore.
The past is gone.
Us Europeans must look after ourselves now.
European governments must look after themselves too.
And we all should invest more in defense.
The world is a jungle out there…
:-(
Macedonia=Greece
Must be! Their having write on that name MAKEDONIJA!
No dispute. History.
:/ I asked if the Macedonians were Slavs or Irano-Europeans; why has my question been deleted?
Slavomakedonski its a Solution but the dont want it so we stay to the Position ERGA OMNES .h
YES IT CAN. VARDARIA is the name solution for FYROM.
One name only: Former Yugoslavian or Bulgarian but always Slavic Republic!
I like that name , that was right name all the time , even in Yugoslavia . I can’t understand Greek problem . That was always Macedonia .
~ VARDARSKA: WAS – IS – and EVENTUALLY WILL BE THE OFFICIAL NAME OF THIS COUNTRY DUE TO VARDAR RIVER … ~ AFTER ALL THIS WAS THE ORIGINAL NAME, UP TO II W.W.~ ASK THE PEOPLE IN THE GREATER AREA OF THIS COUNTRY IF THEY AGREE… READ HISTORY AND MAKE A ROUND TABLE DISCUSION WITH EDUCATED PEOPLE…THEN YOU WILL DECIDE FOR YOURSELF …~ VARDARSKA : SLAVS, ALBANIANS & ROMA, LOVE THIS NAME: ASK THEM!
MACEDONIA ON MACEDONIANS…..
A’m MACEONIAN…………
You GREEK…….
I hope it will be solved soon 👍
I love the way that government make us fight with our neignours in order to no cooperate with name in many ways historic disputes wars racism etc etc etc. Macedonia was Macedonia alexander was Greek but what’s the problem if we name a country macedonia
Fyrom
М А К Е Д О Н И Ј А
M A K E D O N I J A
M A C E D O N I A
M A Z E D O N I E N
Sure, split it into four pieces cos that’s the only solution for MACEDONIA.
Greece should concentrate on its problem of corruption, clientelism and patronage, and start economic reforms, instead of bullying its small neighbour of the North. Macedonia should stop discriminating its gay community and install the rule of law, and ensure freedom of press.
So Jan Peter you say that Greece should resign of its history and tradition because of the economic crisis…I like the depth of your thought..
This state has no chance to survive…almost half of the population is Albanian and the other half are Slavs with the half of them consider themselves Bulgarian…the name Macedonia is given for geopolitical and not historical reasons.Should return to its old original name “VARDARSKA BANOVINA”.Stop raping history it’s ridiculous.
Easily: they should be called VARDANSKA, their name BEFORE 1945 when TITO and his “allies” from UK (yes, the treatorous British…) RENAMED it in order to THREAT Greece against FREEING Cyprus from the British TYRRANTS!!! SLAVS came into Balkans 1.000 years AFTER Alexander and they have NOTHING in common with the GREEK MACEDONIA!!!
MONKEYDONIA
Macedonia is only Greece and this Slavic country has no relation with reality they are slaves and they speak a Slavic Bulgarian language.
It is sad really… I mean, dont these people have anything to hold on to than Alex?
Skopia = AntiMakedonia
Debating Europe Change the name to FYROM. Makedonia is Greek.
Makedonia name is cognate to the Ancient Greek adjective μακεδνός (makednós), meaning “tall, slim”. Debating Europe Please change the name to FYROM
Macedonia is Greek / Rename FYROM to Vardarska
It’s fine. The Greek government recognised Macedonia as a people/language in the 80s. Every Macedonia ambasador has a file with the papers showing the correspondence.
Macedonia is a geographical name, not political and not ethnic. 60% of its population, esp. inland was ethnically Bulgarian over a century ago. Look at the European maps from that period – http://romaninukraine.com/…/05/Ethnic-Makeup-of-Europe.jpg; many of the Greeks in Northern Greece today are in fact Pontic Greeks removed from Turkey. While Macedonian Bulgarians were sent to Bulgaria. Latest DNA, anthropological, etymological, archaeological researches and rediscovering of the ancient archives shows that the First People in South East Europe, the so called Thracians, Thraco-Macedonians, Pelasgians/ Pelagri/ Belgi/ Bolgi – Fir Bolg in Eire, Moesians (Tribali. Gethae), Scythians, Sclavus/ Sklaveni/ Slavs and (H)uns and BuLGars is all the same. The Old BuLGars were Scythians or other local population who have been East and back to their ancient homeland. They just liberated their brothers from the occupation of the Eastern Roman Empire. Thracians is not a local name, it is how the Greeks called the numerous local tribes when they occupied the Balkan Coastline. However Pelasgi/ Pelagri/ Belgi/ Bolgi/ BaLKan, BuLGar translates from Indo Aryan/ European Sanskrit and Bulgarian as white, glittering, noble. The Moesian tribe Tribali translate from the Bulgarian trizdi bolii mmeaning 3 times greater. Gethae/ Goths has remained in modern Bulgarian as the word gotin meaning great, cool. But it translates from the Indo Aryan/ European Sanskrit gayate as to glorify. It relates well with the Romeic/ Roman term for the same population – sClavus/ sKlaveni (the sound of c/k was added for easier pronunciation in Latin), that is Slavs, and slav in Bulgarian mean glorious, same as gethae. Scythian translates from the Bulgarian skitam se meaning to wander/ walk about in spacious areas. (H)uns translates from the Old Bulgarian Church Slavonic unnii meaning better. If this is not enough for the Greeks, I suggest they translate from Greek what Olymp and basileo (basareu) mean!!! Olymp translates from Indo Aryan/ European sanskrit lumpati and Bulgarian lomya/ lumpa – to break, that is a place with many broken stones. Where as basileo (the original is the Thracian basareu) is related to the Bulgarian in Yambol, Upper Thrace – o-BAS-kan or the standard Bulgarian o-POS-kan, meaning revealing white skin on the head or white bone, to the point that it shines. In Bulgarian Your Shineness means Your Highness. By the way the word Greek comes from the Bulgarian Gortsi, that is someone living in or behind the mountains. The Greeks have been very bad to the local population, that is the Thraco-Macedono-Slavo-Bulgarians. This bad attitude created many problems and a lot of pain. History must be rewritten and everyone must come to terms, admit the facts, the Truth, forgive, shake hands and promise to make love, not war. Otherwise, there would be no progress!!! It is so simple. But are there any wise men???
Vardarska is the best!
greeks should solve their own problems rather than to take care of this, Macedonia should enter in EU when they will finish their negociations. They should enter with this name or not !
Macedonia is a geographical name, not political and not ethnic. 60% of its population, esp. inland was ethnically Bulgarian over a century ago. Look at the European maps from that period – https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Carte_Ethnographique_de_L'Europe.jpg, http://www.picturetrail.com/bulgaria_from_salonica; many of the Greeks in Northern Greece today are in fact Pontic Greeks removed from Turkey. While Macedonian Bulgarians were sent to Bulgaria. Latest DNA, anthropological, etymological, archaeological researches and rediscovering of the ancient archives shows that the First People in South East Europe, the so called Thracians, Thraco-Macedonians, Pelasgians/ Pelagri/ Belgi/ Bolgi – Fir Bolg in Eire, Moesians (Tribali. Gethae), Scythians, Sclavus/ Sklaveni/ Slavs and (H)uns and BuLGars is all the same. The Old BuLGars were Scythians or other local population who have been East and back to their ancient homeland. They just liberated their brothers from the occupation of the Eastern Roman Empire. Thracians is not a local name, it is how the Greeks called the numerous local tribes when they occupied the Balkan Coastline. However Pelasgi/ Pelagri/ Belgi/ Bolgi/ BaLKan, BuLGar translates from Indo Aryan/ European Sanskrit and Bulgarian as white, glittering, noble. The Moesian tribe Tribali translate from the Bulgarian trizdi bolii mmeaning 3 times greater. Gethae/ Goths has remained in modern Bulgarian as the word gotin meaning great, cool. But it translates from the Indo Aryan/ European Sanskrit gayate as to glorify. It relates well with the Romeic/ Roman term for the same population – sClavus/ sKlaveni (the sound of c/k was added for easier pronunciation in Latin), that is Slavs, and slav in Bulgarian mean glorious, same as gethae. Scythian translates from the Bulgarian skitam se meaning to wander/ walk about in spacious areas. (H)uns translates from the Old Bulgarian Church Slavonic unnii meaning better. If this is not enough for the Greeks, I suggest they translate from Greek what Olymp and basileo (basareu) mean!!! Olymp translates from Indo Aryan/ European sanskrit lumpati and Bulgarian lomya/ lumpa – to break, that is a place with many broken stones. Where as basileo (the original is the Thracian basareu) is related to the Bulgarian in Yambol, Upper Thrace – o-BAS-kan or the standard Bulgarian o-POS-kan, meaning revealing white skin on the head or white bone, to the point that it shines. In Bulgarian Your Shineness means Your Highness. By the way the word Greek comes from the Bulgarian Gortsi, that is someone living in or behind the mountains. The Greeks have been very bad to the local population, that is the Thraco-Macedono-Slavo-Bulgarians. This bad attitude created many problems and a lot of pain. History must be rewritten and everyone must come to terms, admit the facts, the Truth, forgive, shake hands and promise to make love, not war. Otherwise, there would be no progress!!! It is so simple. But are there any wise men???
I suggest Republic of Macedonia is called Arya. It is the oldest name of BuLGaria. It is proven. It is related to the Bulgarian word yaruk/ yarok meaning bright. http://sparotok.blogspot.com/2014/05/blog-post_21.html
В древно посвещение към върховно тракийско божество (надпис от село Дъждец, Ивайловградско) се среща епитета Блегур*. Вл. Георгиев сравнява името с гр. βλεγυρος- горящ, блестящ, светещ – Георгиев, с.69. Сравнението е правилно, но трябва да се добавят лат. flagro-горя, пламтя, санскр. bharga/bhalga-блясък, сияние, гаел. boilsg-сияние, светлина, идващо от по-стара форма bolg-s-cio (според Александър Макбейн), а и латв. balgans- светъл.
Трябва да се уточни и това, че едни от най-ранните изписвания на името българин и определението български, са във формите бльгаринъ (в надписа на Иван-Владислав) и блъгарьскъ (IX век, Черноризец Храбър). Коренът бльг е идентичен на тракийското определение блег(ур), който пък има значение блестящ, сияен, светъл. Благодарение на тракийската дума блегур, ние можем най-сетне да разгадаем истинския смисъл на етнонима българи, а именно – светли, сияйни хора.
Това е нещо доста интересно защото то съвпада по смисъл с едно още по-старо название на страната ни. Стефан Византийски свидетелства, че Тракия е носила имената Перке и Ария. Перке е сродно може би с епитета на Хероса – Перкон, но за Ария учените мълчат. Самото име арии означава светли, сияйни хора. То е сродно на санскр. арка-слънчев лъч, тохар. арки-светъл и разбира се българската ярък,т.е. светъл. Ярък е йотизираната по-нова форма на арь-к – светъл, сияен.
Това, че най-старото название на земята ни е Ария не бива да ни учудва. Тук са се появили първите благородници. Тук, на Балканите е първото златно съкровище и първите символи на царска власт – златна диадема и златен жезъл. В нашата земя има около 50 000 тракийски надгробни могили. В никоя друга територия не са живели толкова благородници!
https://www.facebook.com/christos.monsieurminimalafull/posts/10204639649690494
Here is your answer on how they treat people who don’t even want to stay in their country.
As a Bulgarian who really likes Greece, I will say only 2 words : “Grow up”.
There is also the PGROM (Present Greek Region Of Macedonia).
Today`s FYROM occupies the geographic area that corresponds to the northern part of the Macedonian area thus it can be named Republic of North Macedonia.
Macedonia is Greece. The Slavs neighbours can call their country Monkeydonia.
Macedonia is Greece. The Slavs neighbours can call their country Monkeydonia.
Its not about the name. Its about identity.i d propose slav macedonia in order to be clear that they belong to the Slavic group and they have nothing to do with the ancient history of macedonia which is paty of the greek history (hellenistic period!) as long as this is made clear. Apart from the name dispute, the two countries should should restore their relations in all levels
Athenians, Spartans, Korinthians, Makedonians, Thebians…ALL GREEKS!!! A false name, false history, dangerous things…
Why there is not the greek flag in the photo of the article above ?
Macedonia is the land from which Alexander the Great and his father Philip originated. Macedonia is GREEK, not Slavic. The language spoken was GREEK not SLAVIC, therefore Macedonia is only a GREEK place. All the rest of the rhetoric is purely politically originated for other purposes, nothing to do with history nor with the name of the place. If FYROM backs off their illegitimate claims a solution can be found, but irrational, ill-informed people, with an agenda rarely admit the truth.
Who cares , Greeks are silly !
Macedonians are aboriginals – indigenouus—-later mixed with Greeks, Illyrians, Slavs…..@Karpen : educate yourself
Macedonia is a geographical and historical region of the Balkan peninsula in southeastern Europe. Its boundaries have changed considerably over time, but nowadays the region is considered to include parts of five Balkan countries: Greece, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia , Bulgaria, Albania, and Serbia. It covers approximately 67,000 square kilometres (25,869 sq mi) and has a population of 4.76 million. And this is why one single country cannot claim the history and the name of the whole region! If they want a solution to be found, they have to come to reality and accept the truth!
In a few days,because is an imposed name from foreign intelligence agencies in order to block the otherwise TRADITIONAL close interests AND FRIENDSHIP between Greece and F.Y.R.O.M.
I am Greek. That said, the “Macedonians” do not just wish to get named after an ancient region in Greece – they build statues of Alexander the Great claiming his was from Skopje and remove Greek letters from ancient Greek statues found in their region. Nonetheless, I do not personally care so much – they can call themselves Macedonias, Londoners, Franfurters or Romans and claim that Attilla or Jesus, or Mahatma Ghandi was their ancestor. For me this is all a big joke, only useful to their governmental propaganda because of their low level of literacy.
Every balcanian ‘s country ever dream has been the access to the Mediterranean sea. So the reasons of insistance of FYROM are mostly geopoliticals. In order to achieve that,through propaganda they educated people believing they come from Alexander the Great a historically ridiculous theory. But how many of you know that also Bulgarians consider themselves “Macedonians” claiming rights of access to sea. How many of you are aware that FYROM and Bulgaria propose and consider for themselves maps that include at their territories Greek land.?It is not just about a simple name.It about the integrity and protection of greek territories that Greece will never accept the term Macedonia for its neighbours.
Greece is a “unified” country just like Germany, Italy, Spain or the UK. Just like Belgium, Greece is the result of UK’s ambitions in areas where there were never one single country. Even greek language was handed back by the UK. Greece’s childish view seems to me rather tiresome. Certainly not a suject to be resolved by the EU which proved to incompetent at all levels. Easier to dissolve the EU than to change the greeks.
the name (onoma)and historia of Makedonians is Greek so the Serbians and Albanians their dreams to be..bigger created the new history of earth. Philippos and Alexander Aristoteles and Socrates was…slavs!!They do really live in a piece of Makedonia but the 2/3 of Makedonians land is in greek territory….tourism is the reason for that-funny- propaganda and everybody knows who is who..except them who use our identity.We can give them a part of our name but not our historia art heroes as they want too…
Hm Norther Greece is Bulgarian-speaking and was given to Greece After WWI…
The Greek-speaking Greece used to be in South of Saloniki… There was no Macedonian nation before Tito and by using the name, they have pretensions on Aegean Macedonia (Greece) and Pirin Macedonia (Bulgaria)…
Dear Peter, at the time of Philip and Alexander the Great, Greece was composed of city-states. Philip and Alexander were MACEDONIANS, that brought the Greek city-states together slowly evolving from Greek city states to GREECE of the HELLENES. Macedon was the home of Alexander, and your FYROM was not part of that neither in language, culture nor DNA. Stop trying to make a lie into truth — it does not work.
We Greeks should be proud if another nation wanted so much, to be named after Macedonia our worldwide known Greek History.But it is different when a neighbour country -known in all maps recently as Vardarska!) desperately seeking political opportunism to be named Macedonia and at the same time say ;;We are Macedonia, noone else has the right to be Macedonian!!!!.It is well known that all Macedonians are Greek , Alexander the Great was Greek he spoked Greek , he was taught philosophy by Aristoteles and …evenn his Horse name VOUKEFALAS is pure Greek and it is made of two Greek words VOY (ΒΟΥ meaning BULL) and KEFALAS (meaning big head!!).Thus VOYKEFALAS was a big headed strong horse.We have and we respect Democracy though.Anybody can name himself whatever name he likes.Greece has already made huge investments (no 1 investor) to this neighbour country.I think everything can be resolved with good will and terms of friendship between people in 2015.SKOPJIE -VARDARSKA should remember their name though and not be RACISTS AGAINST THEIR OWN RACE!!!! (THIS IS CALLED PSYCHEDELIC ΜΑΖΟCHISTIC RACISM- SCIENCE IS STILL LOOKING ON IT!!! ) :)
Nope. It will never be resolved. Reason being that talks have continued for decades but nothing positive has originated. Naming a country after a neighboring region is a de facto irredentist strategy aimed at destabilizing the region in hopes of absorbing the neighboring region.
Only Greece or better hellas is the owner of the holly name of Macedonia. The bones of the ancient Macedonians as well as all the ruins of the ancient Macedonia are in Hellenic territory, fyrom people are Slavics, nothing bad with this, but when you re trying to still others identity seems that you re not proud of yours…..
It seems to be just a Greek issue, I personally don’t care much about. In my mother tongue Macedonia means fruit salad, that’s it!
FYROM is part of Yugoslavia, a slavic pocket in SE Europe which has zero connection to Macedonia or any other Greek territory.
Learn history μακεδονια its only greek
No.There will be a problem.Even if the Greek Goverment sells the name, the Macedonian people( as myself) will react .Syriza doesn’t care about different national issues but that doesn’t mean that we will allow them to destroy the country.We do know that parts of our country Hellas are being occupied but it is ridiculous of foreign people to want to steal our history.It would be a huge mistake of the Hellenic Goverment to take unhistoric decisions just to please foreigners ,as we are broke economically, because next time the Golden Dawn will take scary precentages.I understant that people need to belong somewhere but it’s not fair to steal other coutries (Hellas) history.
Ane Baraja and Georgia Mega
hahah Darius :P it will always be FYROM for me, as we have discussed, with no Greek and Macedonian relation, by no means. Hoping this time for a solution that will bring an end to all this.
The problem can be solved if there is a will to solve it, aparently the greeks claim they want to solve it, but not actually doing nothing about it. My way or no way, ain’t gonna solve this lame quarrel ! The Republic of Macedonia has the right to use that name, because the it’s located on one part of the land controlled by the historical ancient Macedonia. It has nothing to do with the people that inhabit that part of Macedonia now, or any part of Macedonia. Let’s not get into genetics, cose i don’t think greeks would be satisfied with the results if an actual test would be done on them. I bet a hardcore nationalist peloponesian greek won’t be that vocal when the results come and he will hear what deep down he always knew but tried to hide it: a turkish-slavic-albanian-latin combination. Just let them call what ever they want, but make them sign a paper: – no territorial claims over Greece, just as Greece won’t have any territorial claims over them. PROBLEM SOLVED ! If both sides keep their end of the bargain, there won’t be any problem, regardless of their name.
yes
Yes it can be resolved! Only when the slaves accept that they cannot create a country based on stealing the name and history of a Greek territory. Slaves have nothing to do with Alexander the Great or with the Macedonian name. Why don’t they pick something that suits them to copy such as something Albanian or Romanian.
If you know history then you would agree to Slavic Macedonia or Vardaska Macedonia or keep the name as it is today ” Former Yugoslavic Republic Of Macedonia AKA FYROM ”
because
1. They are Slavs not ancient Macedons
2. That region during Roman – Byzantine and Ottoman eras was tottaly absorbed by Macedonian administration.
So yeah it entitles a region that used to be called as Macedonia for a very long time and NO they are not ancient Macedons or have anything to do with Alexander and Phillip
If they just deal with it and accept they are not Greek but Slavs then a name that defines geographical position might occur.
Господа византийци, а защо сменихте името на Солун?
The Soluniki, въобще не звучи на Гръцки!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Македония, това е част от България.
Macedonia Makedonia
The Greeks recognised Macedonia when it was part of Yugoslavia (as the part known as Macedonia…). Each Macedonian Embassy has a file with the papers to show it. I found it to be most interesting… Yet to visit the country.
Cloud Walker can it?
Yes it can. With War, Death & Destruction. That’s how these problems are solved. The name Macedonia used by FYROM is a Casus Beli by itself.
As every artificial state Makedonia will disapear sooner or later, like Libya, Syria, Tchechoslovakia, USSR, Kosovo and Belgium, and so on. Makedonia like Trakia are geographical areas, not countries.
VARDARIA is the solution.
so many pissed off greeks here lol, the country is called Macedonia, that’s it
Macedonia is Macedonia! We are neighbours and friends. We are one blood.
A country with 70% of people being slavs and 30% albanians and other ethnicities cant be named macedonia. Macedonias were a greek tribe the only way to keep this name is by joining Greece
“were”
And still are expect if you talk about greeks and slavs that breed together a cram of grecoslavs which exist thats why i said they can join greece
You Greece people was Albanian so what
Thats why the albanians who lived in greece say they are greeks
Βρε τουρκοσπορε Σουλτανη, ΔΑΠιτη της πουτσας τραβά ασχολησου με τα 23 δις που ζημιώθηκε το κράτος σου απο το 2000-2015 απο αυτα που ψηφίζεις και άσε τις μαλακιες γιατί γίνεσαι ρεζίλι.
Για ατομο με επίθετο χυσια λες πολλά στοκε
Albanians in Greece even change their name to Greek 😏
Paschalis Bourletsikas because they were forced into assimilation by your people. Without hiding their true identity they would only get discriminated by your bigoted people.
Janin Rexhepaj it happened because the first albanians that came were convicted murderes and killed many greeks thats why people hated you. the last 15 years things are better and a lot of you made money and thats one of the reasons albania is better now
Skender Fetahi This has to be a bad joke.
The man is a dick, why you are answering???
Janin Rexhepaj That is nonsense and to this day it is doll happening and no one gives a damn where they are Albanian or not. It is their own will we are not as backwards as Albania. I have had workers that I have known for years that changed their name and I asked why and they replied either they felt like it or they and a criminal background. You seem to be quite a bigot
No, because people always have been and always will be d***s.
Macedonia is one and only one and it’s a big part of Greece and always was and please you are in European union and your organization is funded from eu and officially all European countries and the union recognizes this country as Fyrom.so as you have to refear as fyrom other wise we will pres charges against your actions …
Hahahaha…charges? Get education.
Greece lost in front of international court on the Macedonia dispute and you did not respect the decision. So, before going and waiving your justice flag, get educated. And back in the ages you are referring to…there was no Greek state.
Milos Kostovski right to the point.
We lost in the court about the veto in NATO not about the name dispute get some education milos
Macedonians were speaking Greek (basic historical fact). Can FYROM people understand a word from the Macedonian language? And there wasn’t Greek state back to these ages but there was Greek nation! Surely Slavs didn’t exist these ages.
Well, 120 nations recognize the name. That is 2/3 of countries in the world. If we were not desperate to enter Nato, the name dispute is already won by us. Now, just for the fact that that we are tiny nation that you can bully doesn’t make you right. And for purposes of showing how smallminded bully behaves, it always picks on the weaker. Otherwise, why not ask Turkey to rename Istanbul into the original Greek name.
Can Hellas people understand a single Macedonian word?
And Flamingo Casino
We don’t cause your fake language is pure Bulgarian…Macedonians was speaking Greek always and even in your jock of museum all your artifacts are engraved in Greek!greek is the real Macedonian language
As you are Bulgarians
Nikolas Kontogiannis I was thinking about Ancient Macedonian language since you want to adopt their history and kings.
My father as Macedonian living in Prespa was forced to leave his home together with his parents and siblings. You Greeks have stollen all his property! It is not a name dispute, Greeks are afraid that they will have to pay for the crimes they did to the Macedonians living in northern Greece and return the property to the real owners. We have beautiful Macedonian language and l am proud to be Macedonian with my father born Macedonian in Prespa!
No you don’t , you don’t have this “ Macedonian “ language , you don’t have a nation , you don’t have a country ! All you have is the American support cause they wanna turn your land to military base !
So we dont agree for the name , you stay out of Europe and everything’s fine 😘😘
Ivona Georgievska propably your father was working with the commies when we had our civil war thats why he was forced to leave
I totally agree Δημήτρης σουλτατανησ and probably your father Ivona Georgievska is pure Bulgarian
You are not Macedonian Ivona, as you have a Slavic name and surname. You are clearly Slav, only Slavs did not appear in the region till 600 AC at least. Macedonian existence goes centuries before that, so your case here is not well supported. Basically, if you were Macedonian, your language would be Greek!
And ofc if you want to be macedonian you can join greece we dont have any problem with that
You are so funny. Who do you think you are to tell me who l am? You cannot be Greeks and Macedonians at the same time. Thank God I know my roots, for that l don’t need to go in ancient times, l just go back to 1948. I am proud of who l am and l will not allow you to tell me. If you belong to the oldest democracy in the world you should start acting as citizens of such country and not be so narrow minded! Have a good night 😀.
And by the way, l don’t know how my father could fight in the war by being only three years old 😆😆😆
Katerina, maybe u r Macedonian? Ancient one? Is Katerina Ancient Macedonian name?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvp9UIGjN6w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKdxjwe1ycA
Interesting, you just admitted your history goes back to 1948! This is more than enough evidence that what you are claiming is historically unsubstantiated!!!!By the way you have the right to believe you are Superman, this however WILL make you sound ridiculous.
And no, you are not at all proud of who you are, since you have to invent a historically unknown identity.
By the way Κατερίνα Φακή, is an authentic Greek name.
Macedonia and Thessaly (were I come from) were and are provinces of Hellas (both had and have Greek language and culture). This is extremely well documented history, it is so weird you are willingly blinding yourselves to worldwide known facts and science!!!!!
Katerina is an ancient greek name? omg! you are Macedonian…lol…Are christians names Vasko Popovski.And many other names of greek people like Aristotelis,Alexandros,Filippos,Nestor,Faidra,Danai,Athena,Periklis,Zinon,Thetis,Ismini,Achileas,Paris,Eleni,Odysseas…The better thing that you can do is to learn the greek language and the greek history.All the answers are there!
Milos Kostovski Istanbul is a Greek word my friend
Milos Kostovski Istanbul is a Greek word my friend
Ivona Georgievska really??
Katerina Faki yes but for centuries they feel and called Macedonians… Stalin recognized them as such and all the West
We won’t permit a country to ente NATO or European union with a Greek name Macedonia.
Nikolas Kontogiannis who are you to permit or not :)? Maybe God? :)
Yes we won’t let you Steal our identity our history our heroes our personality. There is no European union or NATO. And there will be no Greek government that will permit this and even if they try they will fall by the millions of Greek patriots that will sto this .&-
Nikolas Kontogiannis , good luck, I see you are very narrow minded, unlike the cosmopolitan Alexander the Great ;) .
Dear Ivona people have the tendency to make stories so they can give a worth to their existence..
“Македонци” като етнос не съществуват, местните “македонци” са българи говорещи на български диалект, има гръцки и албански етнос на тази територия също… държавата спокойно може да си смени името от “Македония” на “Западна България”, защото мнозинството живеещи там са етнически българи…
Macedonians, as ethnicities, do not exist, local Macedonians are Bulgarians speaking Bulgarian dialect, there are Greek and Albanian ethnicities on this territory too … the state can safely change its name from Macedonia to Western Bulgaria because the majority living there are ethnic Bulgarians …
A lot of claims, no evidence to back them up
Great, we’re getting creationist vibes here.
And Serbs and Albanians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization
MACEDONIA IS GREEK !!!!!!!!!!!!
of course, but without stupid nationalists on both sides
🐅😍
Nationalists are useless. However, the name Macedonia is Greek itself as the ancient kingdom. Our northern neighbors should be proud enough of their origin and not try to ‘borrow’ ours.
Alesander the Great is dead how many years?
Ginster Michel Plantagenet so should we change history to make a few happy?
From when nationalism is knowing well your history and convincing others that Macedonians were speaking Greek? You had better distinguish nationalism and patriotism
I don’t understand why they denie there Slav origin.Slavs are one of biggest groups of Europe
It’s all a big mixe salad in the Balkans 😂. I don’t think there is one pure ethnicity which is actually very nice. We are all Greek, Turkish, Serbian, Roumanian, Bulgarian, and so on … don’t forget that DNA shows, however, that Bulgarians and Macedonians are 80% like Thracians who were on the Balkans before our Greek brothers also very much mixed with Thracians themselves 😉. So yes Slavs too but Slav for less than 20%
Emil Panayotoff,I agree with you just mention that Macedonians and thracians were and are Greek tribe.don’t forget that Alexandros as well Dimomritos from Thrace were Greeks ;-) .but I agree with you that we are in many many things same
Dimokritos *
All were Greeks back then but Greece was not a state in the modern sense. All balkans are the same tribe more or less
In theory yes….in real life….hmmmmmmmmmm…..
simple – as the song “Alexander the Great” says:
“Near to the east, in a part of ancient Greece
In an ancient land called Macedonia
Was born a son, to Philip of Macedon
The legend his name was Alexander”
and then
“A Phrygian King had bound a chariot yoke
And Alexander cut the ‘Gordian knot’
And legend said that who untied the knot
He would become the master of Asia
Hellenism he spread far and wide
The Macedonian learned mind
Their culture was a western way of life
He paved the way for Christianity”
Macedonia is a Greek place 3000 years .
So Simple
Macedonia was part of Greece
Macedonia is part of Greece and
Macedonia will be part of Greece
Live Long Greece
Yes. When I was introduced to a man from Skopje (I did not know where he was from) and told me he was Macedonian I told him in Greek. “So you are Greek.” And he told me in English. “I am sorry I do not understand.” The name “Makedon” is Greek, the name “Alexander” is Greek. This gap needs to be solved. And it is not in a name. It is in the history, the identity of a people, while some other people claim it. It is not easy. But, certainly, haste and political parties that want to give a fast solution won’t give a steady solution. Negotiations based on political party’s own interests won’t give a solution. A win win negotiation demands time and understanding.
No!
The problem stems from the non-distinction between geographical names and political names. The same situation is in the case of Egypt.
Human being might be extinct in the not so distant future. At least we still won’t be arguing about land and names
Macedonia is greek…ALEXANDER THE GREAT was greek…all the ancient graves and museum are in greece…everything else is bulls**t. …visit greece and we for yourselves if you want!
too difficult because it is NOT just a Name Dispute. It started as a Name Dispute but it turned quickly to a stealing of Greek History something that made the Greeks furious.
The First Slav Leaders of “Macedonia” were saying “we are Slavs but we want the name Macedonia for our newborn State because once there was a Macedonian Kingdom here and the entire region is known as Macedonia”. The next Leaders of that State start publishing new school books, maps and theories saying that “we are not Slavs but ancient Macedonians” and an entire generation in Skopje grew up with this theory. In order to support their NEW History, they spreading propaganda that “ancient Macedonians were foreign to ancient Greeks, like the Egyptians or Persians”.
Greece made a step back and announced that she accepts the word Macedonia for their new State but with a word in front as Upper/New/North Macedonia and to stop their propaganda about History, to change their school books, their Constitution etc etc
The REAL issue is what kind of History we want for our children. History made by scholars and archeologists or History made by politicians?
How can we teach our children that Alexander the Great was speaking a Bulgarian dialect called “ethnic Macedonian language”? that he spread the Slavic culture to Persia and Egypt?
what’s next? to teach them that Spanish colonels and ancient Mayas were the same nation? and that Mayas were speaking Spanish?
It can and it’s about time we find a middle solution that will satisfy both parties
So Simple Macedonia is part of Greece and Macedonia will be part of Greece………
very easy….half of Macedonia be long to Albania and then let then choose their name
very easy….half of Macedonia be long to Albania and then let then choose their name
Macedonia may be greek, but today’s state (FYROM) is bulgarian ethnical territory. Before reading and studying ancient history, read the Middle age one and the history of the last 150 years.
You can name it Western Bulgaria if you want. It’s OK with us.
If it was up to me, I would do it right now, but I don’t take decision, neither the bulgarian government does. Sadly, our government was the first to recognize the country of “Macedonia” in 1992, but this is not the opinion of the people…
Angel Mitkov smrden
It can and will very soon.
Yes, it can be resolved: Macedonia is an independent state and only it and it’s population will decide how this country will be named.
Skopje its an independent state and greek people want to leave peaceful with our neighbours. Macedonia 3000 years now is greek with greek history Alexander the great was greek macedonian culture ia greek.Skopje should use another name as the greek macedonia doesnt belong to them.
Hmmm… that is very strange argument my friend. How did then Greece managed to live with it from 1944 till 1990, when the Macedonian state was called Federal Macedonia (1944-1946), People’s republic of Macedonia (1946-1963), Socialist republic of Macedonia (1963-1991), 1991 – onward: Republic of Macedonia :D
FYROM is an independent country (for the time being) but stealing a part of Greek history is totally unacceptable. A country of 40 years history simply cannot identify itself as ancestors of Great Alexander who lived 4000 years ago. And the fact that you used many times Macedonia as your name doesn’t mean it’s fine and there is no problem!
Yes, and Greece is right to protest about the FYROM “acquisition” of Greek ancient history. However, Greek protests about the name of the state aren’t serious enough: why didn’t Greece protested from 1944 till 1991? Probably Greece was afraid from Yugoslavia?
P.S. I’m not Macedonian.
There were no protests because Greeks were absorbed in the civil war, but when they overcame it protests started (1992 and on). The purpose of the protests is to dispel the irrational myth that FYROM is Macedonia. No, historically speaking, Greece is afraid of noone. They have proved it.
P.S. I am sure that you are not Greek
Greek Civil war was till 1949, and afterwards you had almost two democracy decades, before the Military Hunta took over the state. When the Hunta gave back the political control, you had another almost two decades of democracy (until Yugoslavia collapse) under Nea Demokratia and PASOK…. so plenty of time and opportunities for protests against Macedonia’s name – left-wing governments, right-wing governments, and a millitary one. And no protest happened because Cyprus was far more important for Greece, and because Belgrade had territorial claims in Greece via it’s satelite Skopje, mainly for Thessaloniki. And when the federal state collapsed, Greece started protesting against the name of a poor ex-socialist and ex-yugoslav republic, which doesn’t even have 2 million people in it. Macedonia stole a lot of our Bulgarian history too, but we simply laugh at them and don’t care about their “ancient” history. BTW, if Greek Macedonia with Thessaloniki was in FYROM, I bet that Egnatia Odos wouldn’t have existed :D
This poor country has influenced with its propaganda many countries accross the world and thus it has been recognized by 200 countries. Unfortunately, we can’t laugh at them because nobody sees it as a joke. They are convinced that FYROM is Macedonia
Андони Андреев you may find the “thieving” of Bulgarian and Greek History as a joke, but we don’t.
We were laughing too in the beginning but when we saw their new flag which was an ancient Greek symbol when we saw their new maps which had Greek lands, their new statues in Skopje etc etc we realized that it is not a joke anymore, but a nightmare.
In 10-20 years they might be more powerful as members of EU and NATO and there is no way to stop their propaganda then. It must be done NOW.
This is the stupidest thing I ve ever heard. So if Greeks or whoever decide to be named England, he will be allowed? Lol, such a stupid argument.
As I said, Greece is right to protest against the stealing of its history by FYROM. Honestly, I don’t think that anyone in the world believes FYROM’s claims on Alexander the Great and so on. Those claims are simply hilarious.
But also, nobody can understand why Greece is protesting against the name of the state and that’s why your nation hasn’t received any support in this matter. You were supported only by Russia, but this support is a double-edged blade. It is really hard for the outer world to understand why Greece declares monopoly over an old geographic notion like “Macedonia” and why the same geographic notion can’t be shared between an independant state and a Greek region. In my opinion, this has to do something with FYROM stealing everything “Macedonian” like history, culture, etc. But if FYROM changes itself and stop doing it, then… how will Greece react?
Take the EU flag off your avatar 😆
If the slavs,albanians,etc. of which the state of Skopjia consists,chose to be part of the Greek state peacefully,by choise,they could use the term,which is part of the hellenistic era,an so part of Greece s history.If they decide not to,the only use of the term should be geographical,as the prevalent nations actually in Skopjia,or at least the slavs, didnt even exist in the area in the hellenistic era,so they cant claim descendance from macedonians,at least historicaly.best for both countries would be to create a single one state.
It cannot. They have to change their name first. Read history, alexander the great was speaking greek and not slavic language. We may have economic crisis, but our history is not for sale.
Greece is a part of Macedonia, they left all their mentally challenged down there and somehow they managed to survive until now
No , it is a historical and cultural offensive attitude the people of fyrom have against my country.
Yeah, they did it to offend you. Haha
In the modern state of FYROM, there is a huge number of Greek speaking Greeks and Slavic speaking Greeks, that through the time and under the Bulgarian conquest, influence and propaganda, they were forced to introduce themselves only as macedonians (the local greek identity) and not as generally Greeks. Passing the time also the Greek motherlanguage was forced to be abandoned by the Macedonians of the occupied Macedonia. This was designed by Slavs, in order to cut the greek roots of Macedonians from the motherland of all greeks, Greece. Today there is a part of Macedonia that is occupied by FYROMs forces. Greece should claim back and free all macedonians and the occupied Macedonia from the Slavic state of FYROM.
Slavic speaking Greeks? You must be kidding. You are not very bright, are you? Greeks don’t hold the copyright on the name of Macedonia! As far as I am concerned they can call their country Gaylandia if they wish. And you can do nothing about it. I am Bulgarian and we have a region which is called Pirin’s Macedonia. The land of Macedonia was in Bulgaria’s borders for a long time too and there live people more closer to my people than to yours. So get over with it Greeks and live on. Start thinking with your narrow-minded, brainwashed heads a bit more on your own.Your stupid Megali Idei is long ago dead!
With your message, you confirm my thesis.
Skopje has the problem not Greece. If they dont find a sollution they wont be accepted within Nato . Macedonia is Greek and Alexander lived and died to Macedonia . There were no slavs there at the time ,so simple. We will never agree to submit our national sovereignty
Macedonia is Greece 3000 years now! Alexander the Great was greek! Skopje should use another name instead of stealing the greek historical name and have intentions for territory change. We the greeks want to leave in peace with them but we will never accept the stealing of our history and hostile intentions of territory change.
Just see this https://www.facebook.com/thanasis.gounaris/videos/1667667733285816/
Call them Western Bulgarian and be done with it.
Im Romanian and we have a historical region called Modova. But I was never worried that there is another country called Modova, our neighbour. I really dont know why Greek people are so angry about this.
Mugur Cristian because it is NOT just a Name Dispute. It started as a Name Dispute and it turned to a stealing of Greek History.
Everyone in Balkans knows that the people of Monkeydonia are Slavs, Albanians and 4% other ethnicities. Well during the 1950s the Yugoslavian Communist Party changed the History books of that YugoSLAVIAN region and everybody grew up with the idea that they are descendants of ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great.
Everyone knows that ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe in ancient times and these people in Monkeydonia publish new books, spread theories saying that “since we are ancient Macedonians and since we are not Greeks that means that ancient Macedonians were not Greeks too, but a foreign nation to ancient Greeks”.
They change and steal our History since Macedonians were a significant Greek tribe like the Athenians, the Spartans, the Corinthians etc..
Because the 20% Slavomacedonians wants the MONOPOLIO IN MACEDONIA without respect to 53% indigenous ancient race of Greek-macedonians,12% bulgaromacedonians,15%albanomac.They call themselves Aristoteles Alexander’s childs and Olympus mountain of Greek 12 gods ..slavic homeland.
Thats why..
So you have ambitions for their land, not them to yours. Is this right? They are stealing not only your history, they are stealing ours too. It’s just a struggle for independence for them. They are ethnic Bulgarians, some Albanians and Serbs. Brainwashed by Yugoslavian communists, now they think they are a different nation. There were a lot of wars for these lands amongst Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Let’s stop this. Shall we?
We Greeks don’t have any ambition for their land. They have ambitions for ours. Check the maps they are showing.
This is nonsense Spiros Kontogiorgis. A less than 2 million people country which can’t even save their own land from Albanian ambitions.
Todor Dzhambazov, what are they stealing from you?
The name, the symbols, the history and the lands they claim are Greek, not Bulgarian!
And it’s clearly NOT about us being afraid of them, but its like when you have a child misbehaving, you should not succumb to its irrational demands, or it will turn into a nasty adult!
Cause they have territorial claims I suppose even if they deny it for the time being.
https://www.google.com/search?q=land+of+kings+but+never+greek&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA0_2y15HZAhXKL1AKHR3CAjoQ_AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=560#imgrc=tv-wy6TIO4GYfM:
Todor means Theo- doros. In greek Θεόδωρος( Gift of God) .You know who teach you the alphabet to read and write? In 800 a.c that Slavs came from north, like Vickings,Greek macedonians and a Czech team in Oxrida teach You your language. Then.. Russia. You know what language speak Latins and ALL Europeans? Find it and Stop the slavs propaganda. You are ungrateful and uneducated that you become ridiculous dangerous nationalists that says BS.
Tell me who taught us our alphabet dear Katerina Mpakirtzi?
Our Alphabet was a result of Bizantyne politics and two Slavic brothers. And as I remember Bizantyne is not Greece but the Eastern Roman Empire
Two Slav brothers? Do you knvw the etymology of names Cyril (Κύριλλος from Κύριος = The Lord) and Methodius (Μεθόδιος from μέθοδος (μετά + οδός = έρευνα) = research).
The Byzantine Empire (Eastern Rome) was not Greek in modern terms, because Greece as a country didn’t exist. Yet, it was founded on an ancient Greek colony named Byzantion and Greek people lived there fron antiquity. Thay may have been Roman Citizens, but they were clearly of Hellenistic heritage. In fact Greek was the official language in the Byzantine Empire from the 7th century and onwards. Most emperors had Greek names and were once again of Hellenistic heritage. Cyrilus and Methodius were born in Thessalonica, which once again was Hellenistic from antiquity. So, no they weren’t Greek in modern terms yet, they were of Hellenistic heritage. I don’t understand why people in the Balkans are annoyed with this. Greeks were in the area from antiquity and influenced a lot at that time, for good or for bad. An easy way to identify if someone was of Greek heritage is where he/she was born at that time and his/her name. If they were born in an area that Greeks existed and their name was Greek, they probably had Greek heritage. That doesn’t take anything away from people in the modern world. Saying though that the Byzantine Empire had nothing to do with Greeks is historically wrong. You can check it for yourself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
https://youtu.be/IpSzlyM1jqo
Todor, you answer to the reference to one of the most known and accepted encyclopedias online with one casual video that uses computer generated voice and bad graphics. That is definitely not a good start.for you. You better try to find a true historical scientific research instead and then you may be able to base your answers on true historical facts.
Тhe real history is that Macedonia has never been Greek, and it will never be. you forget that in 1913 with the Bucharest Treaty Greece received a part of Macedonia, then the assimilation of the Macedonians began. in 1949 Greece made the largest genocide. Greece takes away the properties of the Macedonians and expels them.
Skopians clearly need a psychiatrist
Most of the post-World War Two refugees sent to Yugoslavia went to the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. This was for obvious reasons such as the short distance between the borders of Greece and Yugoslavia. Soon the flow of people reversed and many ethnic Macedonians from Yugoslavia entered Greece with the hope of aiding the National Liberation Front. The largest group of refugee children from the Greek Civil War was to end up in the People’s Republic of Macedonia. Upon crossing the Yugoslav border many children were sent to villages such as Ljubojno and Brajčino before being relocated to larger centres such as Skopje and Bitola. These were joined by thousands more refugees, partisans and expellees until the border with Yugoslavia was closed. From then on refugees had to enter the country via Albania. The majority of these refugee children were Macedonian speakers, who remain in the Republic of Macedonia to this day.
The refugees from aegean Macedonia were primarily settled in deserted villages and areas across the Republic of Macedonia. A large proportion went to the Tetovo and Gostivar areas. Another large group was to settle in Bitola and the surrounding areas, while refugee camps were established in Kumanovo and Strumica. Large enclaves of refugees and their descendants can be found in the suburbs of Topansko Pole and Avtokomanda in Skopje. They joined mainstream Macedonian society, with most being highly educated. Most have never returned to Greece. The Republic of Macedonia was the centre of Macedonian refugees from the Greek Civil War. Some estimates put the number of refugees and their descendants at over 50,000 people.
Todor, you don’t only offend greeks by slaughtering the history, but also yourself. Please open a book that is not filled with propaganda. I don’t say that your story is completely wrong. I currently reside outside of Greece, and I have met people that were forced to leave the country. This migration took place during and after the Greek Civil War (1946-1949), and the reason for their movement was that they were communists and Yugoslavia was the nearest shelter for their ideology. Some of them had even kept their language (greek). Even though, it was very dangerous to speak Greek in public or the authorities to know that you are greek. Problems and dangers in other words never stopped after they left Greece, instead new appeared and many of them were forced never to use their mother tongue (Greek) anymore. Anyway, I would like to see our countries building better relationships and even becoming partners in the EU. But you need to understand that by annihilating the Macedonian history of Greece is not in the context of the real facts. The Greek Macedonian history is more than 2000 years old. Instead, you are based on the history of the last century and moreover, the identity that was given to you by Tito. Having established this thought in your mind, you claim the whole history which is undoubtedly part of Greece too.
Savvas, I see that you have read something about history, but not the end, or you only learned Greek propaganda. Do you really think that Tito gave us the Macedonians identity? It’s Greek propaganda, and maybe you’ve learned that we Macedonians have come from Mars during the time of Tito.
I may be brainwashed from the many historical sources pointing otherwise. You might need to read: Herodotus, Isocrates, Strabo, Aeschylus, Homer, etc to find the truth in your search for identity. You can find their work translated into English, but be aware, the original work was not in english as you might want to believe but in greek 🤣🤣! The same languange spoken by Aristoteles who was the mentor and teacher of Alexander the Great! 😉
If you believe a place is named by the citizens living there then the
Republic with Skopia as capital cannot be Makedonia as there are no greeks, it’s like to say Austria should be called
Macedonia he’s to remain as Macedonia no any ultimatumi
Italy, if we believe a place is named just geographically then the problem rises: if it is Makedonia it should be annexed and become a part of Greece, becoming one with Makedonia in northern Greece.
The problem is that this is a real mess build up by communists who are best in manipulating people:tito wanted to create a Makedonia in order to annex northernGreece to Yuguslavia, thank’ to god it did not happen, but people living there after 3 generations believe they are makedonians, without speaking any neogreek language nor having names and surnames reminding greek ancestors.
But they believe to be makedons, wrongly, and they pretend to be named thisway, they do not know any different name for themselves, and rhey will succeed to get this name because the communist government of Greece pays more attention to the history of the communist party rather than the history of the nation they grew up.
Skopjans can kiss EU and NATO membership goodbye. Any Greek government that sells out our history will be deemed traitors forever.
Shuld they want NATO and EU mmshp ? You should enlighten new members with your rich experience.
Hahahh
Slovenia gives money to EU fonds so they can cover whose debts, I wonder…
Don’t worry Nikola Svetiev we won’t be asking your cheap dinnars anytime soon
Hmm… Does the use of the name give the country of Luxembourg any claim over the Belgian region of Luxembourg? Does Belgium have territorial claim rights over the French Flanders? This is such a bizarre non-issue with so many real-world consequences :/
If you convince the Skopjians to do so I will agree with you!
Spiros Kontogiorgis Every country which wants to join NATO or EU signs documents that has no land ambitions towards any of their neighbours
The difference is that the Belgian region once belonged to the Grand Duchy, and the inhabitants of both are ethnically and linguistically akin. The same goes for Belgian and French Flanders. People on either side of the border feel a sense of kinship with each other. In the case of Macedonia, the borders are as much cultural fault lines as they are political boundaries.
That doesn’t change the fact that a country having the same name as a region in a neighbouring country has absolutely nothing to do with what territory it claims as a lot of places on Earth could attest. If Macedonia makes a land claim, which it could do regardless of what it is called, there are a lot of legitimate ways to deal with it. This “oh no they can’t use this name because our region is called the same” business is ridiculous to the extreme.
Also you should read up on Flanders.
Perce Neige in Bulgaria we have a region called Macedonia too. Greeks can not do anything about it. They are just wyning about bullshit.
What most northern and central Europeans fail to grasp is the historical appropriation of the issue that is unacceptable to modern Greeks. As Greeks we are proud of our history and heritage (to an extreme sometime in my opinion), so stripping a part of our history is something that simply is unacceptable to the majority of Greeks.
No Greek actually fears losing land to a small state as the FYROM, trying to take away an ancient hero though is a painful thought to most modern Greeks. I personally don’t expect our allies in the EU and NATO to understand, what I don’t understand though is if you can’t grasp it, why not just stand by Greeks on the issue?
I’m sure that we as a nation would stand by you if and when our allies have disputes with 3rd countries that are of no interest to us.
Todor Dzhambazov NATO is a joke. Tell that to Turkey which is a Nato member and is continuously threatening Greece (also a NATO member) and doubts Greek sovereignty of Greece’s islands plus airspace violations on a daily basis. Then imagine a scenario in which Turkey and Greece are at war.What do you think will happen seeing that Turkey is a staunch supporter of FYROM? I leave it to your imagination!
SKOPIA IS THEIR NAME. SLAVIC CULTURE & LANGUAGE. NAME THEM SELF MAKEDONIA IS A TANGIBLE PROOF OF AGGRESIVENESS AGAINST THE 10TH EU MEMBER. DEFEND THE BASICS – DEFEND TRUTH !
https://youtu.be/zy9TjSiYo-o
JUST SLAVS…
You mean Bulgarians…
whatever…but NOT MACEDONIAS=NOT GREEKS.
Great debate. Now we have to try to find out wtf is happening by reading the opinions of ultranationalist dicks from either side of the border line.
I like this
You call the global scientific community ultranationalist dicks? Sorry mate, look at the mirror to find out who the dick is. Macedonia was, is and forever will be Greece.
See, I was right. The first dick (coincidentally with a name of Turkish origin) just checked in, waving his evidences and totally forgeting the right to self determination.
Claudio Gamao eat your hearts out Greek-speaking miserable fuck. My soul and my genes are entirely Hellenic. Mind my first name….and your step.
I really do understand both sides. I am Slovenian and some 1500 years Slovenians had twice as big territory as we have now. Even the place where we traditionaly select and krown our dukes is now other country’s territory. So what, past is past. It is what is. We have our minority there and period. People of FYROM will always call themselves Macedonians, as they do for decades, as we shall name them in the future. Its far too late to claim that back. All world settled for FYROM in which the last letter also means something as the slavic Macedonians claim their independence. It is international confirmed country. I am sorry to pass it to you Greeks but history is not always fair. You are not the only one aa ! Learn from your famous philosophers – be smarter and chill down, let them be. Its not like you are gonna get some advantage or shame on this solution. Be and let be. Its that balcanic temperament – fighting over nothing ! Tradition or history will give you no advantage as you have unfortunately seen in the past few years. Move to present time, be wise and let go. Its far too late for that.
Anita lej kko vs zagovarja 🙂
Bojan Bobi Bizjak vidim 🙂 Tomaž Prezelj zelo lepo napisano!!
Slovenia is largely to blame for all this with its insistence on breaking up Yugoslavia in the first place.
Your whole argument is based on the “it is international confirmed country” which is wrong. Their international name is only FYROM and nothing else. Anything else is a bilateral agreed name which does not have any value on international level. And we do not think they will steal our land , as they cannot do realistically, but we are bothered by the huge cultural theft that they have embarked on in order to create their national identity that is based on false information and twisted historical facts. We are indeed too pride for our own good, but arguing that this should change is not realizing what you are talking about. National characteristics cannot “just” change. It takes generations and lots of education. Key word being education which both sides are lacking but mostly the people of FYROM.
Ok so we will call them F.Y.R.O.M.ians ? Like Indigenous Americans are still called Indians since Columbus’s misake. But its too late now. It was a mix of greek, turk and slavic nation on this land. Today they call themselves and we call them Macedonians. Slovenia also holds a pre-slavic history on its soil as do other countries. Greeks are one of a kind in Europe to never move since 3000 years. You can make them correct history books but we and the rest of the world will always call them Macedonians if they will present themselves as Macedonians. No judge in the world will make ppl change their name by force.
“He who has peace of mind disturbs neither himself nor another.” ~ Epicurus.
Dimitris, but its an illusion to think world doesnt know what initials F.Y.R.O.M. stand for. Cant claim the same for history about Macedonia or Alexander. Simply less important for everybody who isnt Greek and FYR of Macedonia exists there for most of our lives. You have to understand that. The world is turning, nowdays even U.S. citizens call native Americans illegal emigrants wtf ?! ;)
Tomaž PrezeljSo why “Fyromians” seek from Greeks to regognize them as Macedonians if the recognition from other countries is enough?
I dont know I think bcoz FYROM was first i guess. Can be South- and North Macedonia as for my consern. Like Sudans. As I said, nations moved a lot since you stayed on south Balkan. Its too late to claim Name back after decades. But not the History. Unfortunately history is not always facts. We all learned to live with that. Why Greeks let Slavs and Turks live in the land of west and central Macedonia since 6th century ? Why Greeks moved out of this area ? Ist ireversable now. The sooner you realise, the sooner you will gain inner happines.
And also sure that macedonian Greeks and macedonian slavs fell in love back then and had many babies :) its pointless now, u see ?
https://www.thoughtco.com/was-alexander-the-great-a-greek-116834
Macedonia will always belong to those who understand the names of its kings … it belongs to those who will see an ancient tomb and can read on it the name of the deceased … In those who understand that someone with the name Alexander -and having a father named Philip and mother named Olympiada- can not be anything other than Greek … that someone named Philip -and having a father named Amintas and mother named Eurydice – can not be anything other than Greek .
If these Greeks are kings of a kingdom , then this kingdom is Greek … is Greek and has a Greek name, and this is Macedonia … All else is of evil purpose
The ” masks ” fell . Vardar and that’s it , end of story!
Contact Holywood.
Contact history Tomaž Prezelj
As long as we are here, we won’t let anyone distort our history. If you can’t understand it mind your own business!
Νο…We never accept the name Macedonia for an other country!
Who gives a fuck what you will accept?
Wait to see a Greek meeting another Greek from Florina region speaking in his macedonian slavic dialect. Meeting Mickey Mouse in person would cause him less confusion!
Actually my hole family speaks slavic dialect. Know why? Because they were torturing them to become slavs 100 years ago! They were greeks with hiden greek flags speaking slavic to stay alive.
Στη Φλωρινα ολα αυτα;
Pela Kapnopoli!This is the true TRUTH!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsskMaEQsv0&feature=share
Bolid Galici you are an idiot. But do not worry or feel insulted: you are just one of many.
True truth my ass.
Why would a Slavophone Greek from Florina speak his Slavic dialect to a non-Slavophone Greek? In the real world, he’d just speak Greek since they’re all bilingual.
They were two in the train talking one to the other.
Alvaro Alonso
Fyrom or Skopje is the name until a solution ia reveald. Finally try to be adjective when you write articles and respeact also the point of Greeks. If the whole theme find a solution you can use the name that it is committed. Until then it is FYROM or Skopje .
Macedonia is one and Greece the other artificial country is 30%albanian,6%gypsy,5%Serbian,5%Greek and54 %Bulgarian origin that this nation until 1954 was named vardarska boukovina and tito changed to Macedonia for 2 reasons .to stop any future anex of this Bulgarian area to Bulgaria and second to have future access to th Aegean. In one day they become from Bulgarians to ” Macedonians
One Greek person who knows what actually happened there.
Even Albanians tell them they are Bulgarians but there are some well brainwashed generations living in FYROM now. This is long time over for us Bulgarians. We lost a Balcan war and two World Wars trying to unite with this people and land…
We all know they are Bulgarians. The only ones that don’t know it are the skopians
Todor Dzhambazov then you should propably focus at skopije at balcans wars and not to thrace or thessaloniki.
20% Slavomacedonians wants the MONOPOLIO OF MACEDONIA. 53% Greeks Macedonians,12% Bulgarian mac,15% Albanian mac.are not existed for those megalomaniacs. Aristoteles Greek macedonian philosopher never existed. Olympus 12 Greek gods was slavic and ancien theaters musea tombs are all slavic history even if they came migrands around 7nd cent.A.C.
Sould accept that they are Slavomacedonians not the ONLY Real Macedonian race. And Stop ridiculous names and myths
They have many choices….Paeonia, Dardania,Vardarska.
It is their interest to be well with Greece.They will be able to use Thessaloniki as an outlet on the sea.
No it cant be resolved because there is nothing to resolve about !!! Macedonia is Greece e basta !!! And skopjie is skopjie !!!
Nothing to resolve. Shall always be Greek! It’s not a brainer
Nothing to resolve. Shall always be Greek! It’s not a brainer
It could resolve, as long as, bilateral sides do not touch sacred names and symbols.. Macedonia as part of the name… out of the question!! Macedonia is one and is GREEK.
les Grecs devraient éviter de donner des allés aux turcs Greek should not help Turk to make new friends
I have a question for our European friends: This region was known as Vardarska until 1943 when the communist general Tito named it Macedonia… Does the European Union agree with that policy??? —2. These people claim that they come from the Alexander the Great, when it’s proven that their race came at the Balkans at around 600 A. C. Would you allow someone to steal your history and heritage??? —3. They also claim – and they show maps in every opportunity, which they also have in their school books – that they should have a large part of the Greek Macedonia – the original one – which of course belongs to Greece! Would you allow someone to claim a part of your country especially when he has absolutely no right to do so???? Final question: Do we need another war in Balkans???? —- Greece doesn’t claim anything from its neighbors. But has every right to defend itself… The Greek people is against every attempt of stealing our history and land. Period
The Greeks should stop nagging about this. The Basque Country is in both France and Spain (even though some Basque people don’t like this), Limburg lies in the Netherlands and in Belgium, same counts for Brabant. Tirol is both in Italy and in Austria. There are probably a couple more regions which lay in 2 or even more countries. Maybe it would be good if FYROM will officially state that they will not try to annexate Greek Makedonia…
those examples you refer have nothing to do with FYROM and Greece.
The question that remains in my mind and is yet to be answered is: this name dispute has been going on since 1991, and only now I hear it sparking turmoil. Macedonians claim Greeks changed the name of the provice within their borders AFTER FYROM was formed (Northern Greece to Macedonia). Greeks claim they are being stolen from their heritage and culture, where I haven’t seen any separatist movement from the province itself, and Macedonians being a different ethnical group from Greeks (Yugoslavia existed on par with Greece on a well defined border), without any intent on a hostile takeover of the region.
Unless these sentences are completely wrong – i which case I ask not only to be corrected but also for references online to support your claims – I ask then:
Why does a name of a Nation that has been sovereign for over a quarter of a century still sparks such turmoil?
This clearly isn’t a case like Catalonia/Spain nor Crimea/Ukraine/Russia.
What is the problem really if the cultures are so similar?
But there is no *country* called Euskadi, Limburg, Brabant or Tyrol. Furthermore, their inhabitants aren’t ethnolinguistically distinct on either side of the border. In this case, we have a newly invented nation laying claim to the name, heritage and territory of an entire region. So no, we will not stop “nagging” about this.
Stupid simplifications of people who know nothing about the History of the Region. Euskadi, Luxembourg etc are not only different cases, but those who invoke these sound ridiculous!
Pavlos Papathanasiou for your information. I do know about the history of Macedonia. Macedonia was in first instance a Greek kingdom which was indeed a kingdom around the current city of Thessaloniki. After a Roman general conquered this kingdom, the Romans made it a province which was a lot bigger than the old kingdom. It became a province which would now have parts of Albania, FYROM, Bulgaria and the already existing Greek kingdom. The northern part of the province had a capital called Stobi (which lays now in the FYROM). Much later, it were actually the Nazi’s who ‘gave’ the region which is now FYROM the name ‘Independent Macedonia’. After the Soviets/Slavic took it over from the Nazi’s, the name changed to the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. This actually means that the current people of the FYROM didn’t ‘steal’ the name. It was already given to them. You can say by the Nazis and/or Soviets. You can also say that the name comes from the Roman Empire. And this is over 2000 years old. So yeah, if you still keep on complaining about it, then it is nagging. If you want to have more information about the history of the Pais Euskadi, Limburg, Brabant or Frysia, then please let me know :-)
John George you are right. There is NOWADAYS no country called Limburg, Brabant or Tirol. This doesn’t mean that these countries didn’t exist. Pais Euskadi (or Vasco) is neither linguistically nor culturally the same if you consider the French part and the Spanish part. Also for you counts, if you want to know more, then please let me know :-)
Geo Mandel true, because people in these regions do not complain about that the name is used in other nowadays countries too. Because the people or don’t care or know enough of their history to understand that North-Brabant was once combined with the current province of Antwerp and the provinces of Vlaams-Brabant and Wallonian Brabant and was called Brabant during the Holy Roman Empire. At that time it was a state/duchy. Dutch Limburg and Belgian Limburg were once combined as a province of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Tirol at the end was once a combined region stretching from Innsbruck to Trento and from Meran to Lienz. Again the Romans decided to split it into several smaller entities. Yet, the Tyroleans decided to stay together and the Tyroleans simply look at each other as Tyroleans and it doesn’t matter if you come from Reutte, Innsbruck, Kufstein, Lienz, Landeck, Meran, Bozen or Bruneck. That would also be nice if the Macedonians, whether they are from the FYROM or from Greek Macedonia would join forces and simply be proud to be called Macedonians as Alexander the Great comes from Macedonia too!
Vincent Kleijn the problem is that 100 years ago, these people were considering themselves as Bulgarians, and they speak a Bulgarian dialect. the 20% of population or more is Albanians. a 8% is Roma or Turkish muslims. The 60% is of Bulgarian/Slavic heritage. Now, being autonomous, they want us to accept that they are not Bulgarians, that they do not speak Bulgarian, that they do not belong to Bulgarian history, but to something else. that they are Macedonians, they speak Macedonian and have Macedonian history. A fabrication of 1 century cannot erase 3000 years of history.
George Zobas and at the end we all come from Kenya…
Εαν δεν ξέρεις τι γράφω, δεν μιλάς την γλώσσα του Αλέξανδρου και δεν είσαι Μακεδόνας… please translate
Paeonia is the real ancient name of most of the territory of the country in question. It also has the benefit of not belonging to anyone else alive today.
This name “dispute” is 100% artificial by some nationalist dumbs in Skopje who wanted to unite the diverse population of this ex Yugoslav province in a single ethnic identity. Slavs arrived in the region 900 years after Alexander the Great and no ancient Macedonian could read and speak any other language but Greek! The microstate of Skopje consists of Bulgarians. Albanians, Roma, Serbs and Greeks hence the so called “macedonian” ethnicity is nothing more than a joke for anyone in this world who knows History and Politics!
I’m very curious “did any one of you here read Demosthenes’ Philippic”
This is the only information you have? Don’t tell me that You read Demosthenes!!! Or you could understand the language of the ancients Macedonians the Greek!?
…he was in the persians’payroll u daft prick…
Are you Persian as Demosthenes
Find me anything written by Filippos or Alexander in Slavic and I will agree with you….
Do you know what you have for breakfast on your 8 th birthday?
The ” masks ” fell off !
Vardar and that’s it , end of story!
One thing is for sure. If they could arbitrarily appropriating the name, they would have done so and they wouldn’t be pressurizing Greece to negotiate. But they know that if Greece does not recognize them as “Macedonia” , they will never be recognized as such. Let then go to convince the Senegalese and the Chinese that they are “Macedonians” and let them explain to them why they do not speak Greek and why Greece does not recognize them as such. Let them go to represent the “Macedonians” and when the people will express their admiration for the Greek culture and the achievements of the “general-emperor ” of the Greeks , they can respond in ” Strumica ” by staring at the floor….
The ” masks ” fell off . Vardar and that’s it , end of story!
Maybe south part of Macedonia you should rename in “Vardar” The source of the river springs is in Macedonia. What you think?
The Battle of Chaeronea was fought in 338 BC, near the city of Chaeronea in Boeotia, between the Macedonians led by Philip II of Macedon and an alliance of some of the Greek city-states led by Athens and Thebes. The battle was the culmination of Philip’s campaign in Greece (339–338 BC) and resulted in a decisive victory for the Macedonians
Sashko Gjorgjievski so? Another battle fought between Greeks! And the reason behind it was very specificaly proclaimed by Philip to be the unification of Greeks to campaing against the Persians. You should read more!
When he conquer the Greek’s first then he give them chance to live and fight for Macedonian in Macedonian army. So you are Greek or Macedonian? What you want to be. R u sure about where you belong?
Παιδιά είναι ανώφελο! Είναι τόσο ανιστορητοι και μεγαλωμένοι με προπαγάνδα που δεν βγάζεις άκρη.
Sashko Gjorgjievski εσυ δεν ξερεις Ελληνικη ιστορια και λες ανοησιες..😂😂😂