CataloniaYesterday, we put some of your questions (from this post about Catalonian independence) to Artur Mas, the President of the Government of Catalonia, during a Friends of Europe event in Brussels. The room was packed with journalists (quite a feat, considering German Chancellor Angela Merkel was also in town yesterday), and the president was only speaking for an hour, so we had time only for one or two questions, which we have posted below.

Watch the full high-definition version of the video embedded below:

The first comment came from Kasia, who argued: “I can understand the Catalans’ wish for independence… however I think this will cause yet more problems for Spain, Europe and the Eurozone. [Instead of full independence, Catalonia should] encourage a looser federal structure.

Here is the response from Artur Mas:

I think that the right answer would be the following one: imagine that the European Union turns into the United States of Europe. In this case, with a federal structure, Catalonia would like to be one of the states of that federation. If you look at the United States of America, you will realise that, with a population of about 300 million people, they have 50 states. The European union, with more than 500 million people, could have more than 60 or 70, or maybe 75 states. And why couldn’t Catalonia be one of these states, in a federal structure and with the powers of a state which belongs to a federal structure? So, with less powers than an independent country but more powers than we have today. In that case, Spain would have less powers, and France and Germany and Holland, but Catalonia would have more powers…

If the EU is not capable of turning into a real political federation, then our aspiration is to have the same tools and the same powers that other nations of our size have in Europe. For instance, the same tools as Denmark, or the same tools as Austria, or the same tools as Finland.

The second comment came from Iturriaga, who said: “The European Commission has already pointed out that any state seceding from an EU member will NOT remain within the EU and would be forced to go through the entire membership process (which requires the approval of all member states, including Spain).

Here was the response:

This process started in Catalonia [only] a few weeks ago. The demonstration took place on 11th September this year, so two months ago. Just after the demonstration on the streets of Barcelona, and the negative answer of President Rajoy to the fiscal pact, I decided to call elections. This has been a very rapid process, and as you can imagine, we don’t have all the answers now.

But, we have a very important answer. We will see if, in the next Catalonian elections, there is a broad majority of the Catalan people who want to decide their future in the following four years. This is something that can be decided now, in a fortnight…

Is this compatible with belonging to the EU? Well, nobody can say ‘yes’ and nobody can say ‘no’. Because, if one of the principles of the EU is democratic values, and the permanent purpose of the EU is to enlarge its capacity and its union, it would not be evident [why, with] a country like Catalonia, that belongs to the EU, fulfills the commitments, fulfills the rules and is a net contributor, why the EU would take the decision to leave us out. It would not be very logical. It could happen. But it would not be very logical.

What do YOU think? Is Catalonia’s future in a federal United States of Europe? Or would a looser federal structure within Spain be a better solution? And how difficult will the process of negotiating EU membership be for regions such as Catalonia and Scotland? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.



448 comments Post a commentcomment


  1. avatar
    Davey Brown

    A Federal United States if Europe is doomed to failure. It is the stuff of nightmares!

    • avatar
      Victor

      Why are you so pesimist??
      The federal system would provide faster decision making for topics like economy fiscal policies …etc… All the problems that are sinking Europe deeper into recession, would faced easier .

    • avatar
      Gavin Crowley

      I suspect that a Federal European state would need to become a Unitary European state with devolution to the ‘regions’ in order to survive, in order to suppress independence movements.
      Citizens need to share common factors in order to share a common politics. Traditionally some, but not all, of the following: Language, Legal System, Army, Tax System. With two or more of these federalised you get a de facto Unitary State.

    • avatar
      John Jones

      The French, who run the most centralised political system in Europe where an incestuous national elite in Paris make all the key decisions, are deeply hostile to federalism in any meaningful form. That’s why the putative USE would not look like the USA, with powerful law-making rights for individual states, but rather like France writ large.

      The only interest the EU apparatus has in promoting current regional secessionist movements across Europe is as a convenient tool for pressurising and de-legitimising the nation states which are the key obstacle standing in the way of creating a dirigiste USE. If ever that outcome is achieved and nation-states like Spain and the UK fragment, any present-day “nationalist” in Scotland or Catalonia who thinks the USE would allow them to have the same level of legislative independence as, say, Texas or New Hampshire, to set their own taxes, run their own budgets and maintain their own laws, let alone the kind of powers enjoyed today by London and Madrid, is a fantasist: in reality they’d have as much power in these regards from the USE elite in Brussels as Paris allows Bourdeaux or Lyons. In other words, nothing remotely like statehood.

  2. avatar
    Marinescu Daniela

    Interesting debate! We have to think well if the Commission proposal is fair……. Why the hole process? Why not? We have to think is this discriminating? Why such an approach?

  3. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Italy didn’t break up because of the Maastricht treaty in the early 1990s. It’s possible Spain will not if Europe integrates further. A Federal Europe is not just Catalonia’s future. It is the whole continent’s. When would any European country ever again, and I am talking about the bigger states not the smaller ones under 10 milllion, be able to compete economically, or in terms of influence in world affairs, as China becomes the world’s workshop, America rises out of recovery still the world’s financial center, and Russia consolidates its grip on the natural gas market, which like it or not, will be one of the energy sources of the future to complement renewables?

    The nation state has long ago stopped providing any real answers for Europe – right after imperialism ended as a matter of fact. There was a brief interlude 1945-1989 when the nation states had the appearance of sovereignty. no question that was pie in the sky in the East as the Red Army barracks were stationed everywhere. But what about in the West? Do you really think Italy EVER had a choice of including the Communists in a center left coalition government during the Cold War? Or France? Did the German Social Democrats not have to change their platform in 1959 to accept capitalism as long as Washington’s watchful eye hovered over them?

    You may support or abhor these ideas, but the point is that big decisions about the direction of the country were made outside the nation state, and each country was given some room to maneuver within the constraints set up by Moscow or Washington because the overseers didn’t take that detailed of an interest.

    That era ended, and the nation state is still unable to provide for its citizens in a globalized economy. So Europe can band together to become powerful enough and chart its own course, or you can listen to the xenophobes and become the 28 smaller fish who get picked apart by the 3 sharks in the aquarium.

    But you would have to accept other cultures and countries as part of your society… because right now you share citizenship with them (you can work live and vote anywhere in the EU), your economy and customs is directed from Brussels, your governments can only change the tax structure within the parameters set by Brussels, and most of you share a common currency. And clearly, you have lost all your freedoms and national heritage. The europhobes are laughable. Europe, please don’t listen to the extreme right. Look how well it has worked for America in the last ten years.

    • avatar
      Анте Ховат

      Нека Каталонија има независности, слободна Каталонија.

    • avatar
      Mexicano

      A federation would require cooperation of richer states towards poorer and catalonia has make it perfectly clear thatit doesent want to cooperate, they want it all!

    • avatar
      Adrian

      Catalonia is just selfishness applied.
      It has no future in the EU.

    • avatar
      Eurosity

      hahahaha, you wish.

  4. avatar
    antonilb

    The EU is being cautious about the question of internal enlargement, but sooner or later it will be forced to face the problem. Either Scotland or Catalonia will probably decide in a time period of two years about their future as independent states, and both of them are truly europeists. Would it be logical to deal their cases as any other country not belonging to the EU? Their citizens are already EU citizens, they have some rights as such and they intend to keep them.

    Moreover, in the Catalonian debate, Spain is playing with the possibility of a veto as a way to discourage the supporters of independence. We, from Catalonia, expect a clear and positive answer from Europe.

    • avatar
      Raquel

      I won’t be so sure about the eventual independence of Scotland… the surveys currently say that people would vote NO rather than YES.
      In Catalonia, firstly we’ve to manage a way to ask the people because it seems that a legal referendum will be hard to be held.
      And last… don’t forget about the Quebec’s example: they have held 2 referendums and in the end, after campaings and so on, people said NO twice.
      In all this debate, we’re assuming that the independence support for Cat. shown in the official surveys that now are published (last one said that 57% would vote YES) won’t diminish over the next months/years. I’m not an expert on electoral behaviour, but… I’m afraid that Scotland and Catalonia may follow the example of Quebec… If that were the case, let’s face it: the EU would not need to approach the issue of the internal enlargement. I’m sure they prefer this last scenario, than the other one.

    • avatar
      antonilb

      I agree that the EU would prefer not to mix into the internal affaires of its member states, but I’m not so sure that in case of secession, Scotland or Catalonia would have to apply for membership in the same way as, say, Turkey. There are too many things to consider, too many arguments to facilitate a smooth transition as new members of the Union.

      I know that the Scottish polls show that it will be difficult for the supporters of independence, and right now this scenario looks unlikely. But for the same reason, the scenario of a Catalonia which opts to stay in Spain is also unlikely, there is too much difference between the options today according to the polls.

      On the other hand, I don’t think that a referendum can be forbidden. If all legal possibilities fail in Spain, we can make a call to the (civilized) world or we can just call for elections with an agreement between the independentist parties to declare independence if they have the majority.

    • avatar
      John Jones

      The notion that we Scots are “tuly Europists” is hugely revealing in two respects.

      First, it’s plain wrong. It’s true that Scotland votes for centre-left parties and that centre-left politicians here tend to be strongly pro-EU. They also go further and try to argue that this is a crucial distinguishing feature that sets the Scots apart from the English. But this is clearly misleading. Every opinion poll that has been conducted has confirmed that the Scottish people are largely as Eurosceptic as the English: the difference when asked if they favour a single European state or joining the Euro tends to be only around 1 person in 20 more in Scotland than in England. But what is definitely different is that the Scottish political elite operate in an environment where constantly claiming that we are very different from (and implicitly superior to) the English is politically advantageous, just as Catalan politicians need to claim that Catalonia is very different from Spain. The fact that they say it, however, is very far from demonstrating that it is actually true.

      The second reason why your claim is interesting is that it merely confirms why a single European democratic polity is neither possible nor desirable. When people don’t speak the same language or share the same ideas and where people are so wildly ill-informed about the opinions of entire other nations any suggestion that they should nevertheless submit to a single government and that this would produce a stable and satisfying politics is plainly dangerous nonsense.

  5. avatar
    Javier Fornieles

    70% of “catalans” are originally from others parts of Spain, specially Andalusia. The most common surname in Catalonia is ‘Garcia’, the most popular surname in SPAIN. Catalonia was never a nation just part of the Kingdom of Aragon…

    • avatar
      antonilb

      Origins don’t matter. History doesn’t matter. But our will matters: the support for independence is already 57% against a 20% for unionists (the data was published yesterday in the official poll of CEO). Who is afraid of democracy?

      By the way, I’m one of the descendants of immigration, and I’m fed up with all the lies coming from Spain. You like to repeat that Catalonia has never been independent. Apart from the fact that it was (175 years before joining Aragon in the Aragonian Crown), the real question is: so what? All nations start being independent one day, and our day is near.

    • avatar
      jaume filló

      Such a stupid comment. Most part of Catalans are form other parts of Spain due to the uncontrolled immigration from Andalusia to Catalonia while Franco was ruling Spain, so he liked this phenomenon to “spainizate” Catalonia. Before 1940, Catalan was spoken as a first language by 80-90% of the population.

      And the Kingdom of Aragon was the union between Aragon and Catalonia. Both lands had the same power. The flag was the “senyera”, and the most spoken language was Catalan (because Catalan was taught to Valencia and Mallorca lands). And the Aragonese used to spoke Aragonese, not Spanish as some of you think.

    • avatar
      Flying Carrero Blanco

      Where did you find these invented percentages? They can be mixed, but the proportion is 57% spanish descendants against the rest from catalonia or mixed from three generations ago.

    • avatar
      Victor

      I agree with Antonib. Origins don’t matter, only our will matters.

      A recent poll states that more than half of Catalans want to be independent:
      ‘if that referendum were held today, separating from Spain would win more than 52 percent support – up from less than 50 percent last November. The portion of voters opposing independence, on the other hand, appeared to have shrunk by almost three points – to 24 percent’
      http://www.euronews.com/2013/09/11/catalan-independence-support-seen-rising/

      Unfortunately the reponse of Spanish central goverment is not allowing referendum, not allowing the fiscal independence of Basque country and also not accepting the Estatue (catalan constitution) as it was voted in a referendum back in 2006.

      Europe, please support Catalan referndum and let democracy a chance!

  6. avatar
    Xavi Romeu

    The Walls Come Down
    “On November 9th, campaigning for the Catalan elections begins. That’s the same day the Berlin Wall came down. We Catalans have the chance to bring down our own wall and build the just, prosperous and free nation that we want.”

    http://youtu.be/Lu0MXXODWek

    Cauen els murs
    “El 9 de novembre comença la campanya de les eleccions catalanes. El mateix dia que va caure el Mur de Berlín. Els catalans també podem enderrocar el nostre Mur i construir la nació justa, pròspera i lliure que volem.”

    • avatar
      Mexicano

      Will catalonia join NATO or itsnot willing to fight for the common cause?

  7. avatar
    Phạm Lê Quốc Việt

    central government should give more tax power and expenditure power to all 17 automous regions, So encourage voluntary exchange bt these regions . More power more responsbility.

  8. avatar
    Vitor Fernandes

    No such thing as independence if you are still enslaved by the grotesque EU empire. Self determination is a basic human right being denied to 10 million Portuguese citizens. We want our nation back!

  9. avatar
    Hugo Gonzalez de Oliveira

    This question reminds me the history of Yugoslavia (it started to fall apart exactly the same way… Big economical crisys (from 1980 till 1991), Croatians and Slovenes wanted tax revenues to be invest at their own federal republic and bigger linguistical and cultural autonomy. Both countries (former yugo and Spain) have ghosts of the past that are still alive (Spain had the Spanish civil war and Yugo the II WW, when shitler used the divisions among croats, muslims and serbs to divide the country. We would make a better future if we would learn more about the history of Europe in order not to comitt the same mistakes….Whit this last sentence, I want to say that it is more than time for both parts relax their speech, sit around the table and take measures to resolve the debt situation, for the sake of all Europe, instead of having radical speaches that only serve to hide to the people their own mistakes (both from central government of Spain and Catalonia) and comitt a huge mistake! Have no doubts, if Catalonia goes for the independence referendum, the army will invade it, and the least I want, as a citizen of eurioe, is another war in Europe, I already had enough of it with yugo wars… The real important questions ythat need answers, not only in Catalonia but in wholle Spain…Why does Catalonia, the richest region of Spain,got with a debt of 48.000 milion euros? Where did the milions of euros invest by the governments of the autonomous provinces of Spain went? How come 25% of Spaniish people is unemployed? And last and more important of all…How does Spain resolve this situation?

  10. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    The reason of crisis of EU is a lack of audit where concerning banks and fiscal policies in my opinion.Because if any audit is not, theft realises unavoidably. But especially Germany had ignored that theft, why oneself production to enhance and to increase an authority of Germany in EU. Actually Germany is such as was time of 2nd Wilhelm and/or Hitler. Therefore while Germany reunions oneself, it wants to divide the countries of Europe. Therefore the independence of Catalonia supports right now. Meanwhile the independence of Catalonia will a true step for future. Because the small states of EU will be very well an audit, why to ruin the lack of audit. FormerYugoslavia and Spain is not quite similar. Because firstly the division of Yugoslavia had started with Catholic Croatia and Slovenya and Germany had became the most important supporter of them. After Cardinal Ratzinger was elected as Pope. Spain and Catalonia are Catholic countries already. Spain has the traditional structures in every land yet, it is very hard to mandate or to manage and of course to change but Catalonia is so modern and rich a country. An avant-garde will be for Spain too. ?f the independence of Catalonia realises, the army of Spain can not invade right now, because the war means money. Remember Napolyon Bonaparte “money,money,money”

  11. avatar
    Jokera Jokerov

    Me thinks it is high time that the Spanish army intervenes and guaranties the security of the country.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Security in Catalonia is guaranteed, because we the catalans are peaceful people.
      As FT said about last 11th Sept 2013 Human Chain ‘Catalan separatists physically took over Barcelona without breaking a pane of glass’.
      http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d6ced552-1baa-11e3-b678-00144feab7de.html#axzz2eszdjQgj

      While 1,6 milion Catalans were peacefully in the proindependence demonstration, Spain supporters of far right nationalist groups attacked a bookshop in the Catalan Cultural Centre in Madrid.
      http://www.euronews.com/2013/09/12/spain-far-right-supporters-attack-bookshop/

      According to the above, Spanish army intervention would not provide any security to the country, but just the opposite: it would eliminate democracy and set up a dictatorship, as already did after civil war (since 1939 until 1975).

      The only option to keep security in the country is a referendum supported by EU
      Support Catalan referendum and give democracy a chance!

    • avatar
      Carles

      Do you think that problems are solved with violence? Are you in favor of sending the troops, the tanks, and the guns to shoot Catalan people? Shame on you! You are a fascist!!

  12. avatar
    Dany Sobral

    A federal Europe will fail as the Soviet Union failed, as Yugoslavia failed, as Austria-Hungary failed, and so on. The list is very long and I prefer the concept of the national states, which is much more accurate and much more democratic for all of us!

  13. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    They were traditional structures and they had some modern structures but the gravitation of majority was leaning to the past. They were too early experienced and were not supported by the international structure. But the World has much bigger companies even than the national States.?f it enables to obey every law regulation of that big companies by supranational structures, everthing might change. Besides it is a necessity, in contrast a World war or alot of regional wars are unavoidably.

  14. avatar
    Tamás Heizler

    My opinion is that the EU Parliament should make laws, that if a region of an EU country, Schengen country or a Euro zone country gets its independence, then the newly formed country should automatically keep being the part of the above mentioned international alliances.

    So if Catalonia and Flanders reach their independence, then they should keep being in the EU, Schengen and Euro zone as well. For me this is absolutely unequivocal, because as far as Spain and Belgium were eligible for Euro zone and Schengen zone, so that their regions have to be also eligible for these alliances. It would be really weird if Catalonia (and Flanders) had to build borders just for a couple of years, and also to indtroduce an own currency also just for a couple of years. This would be waste of money.

    In case of Scotland it’d be a good idea to negociate in order to join to the Euro zone from the day of its independence, so that they don’t need to introduce a very new currency instead of the Pound. It would also be useful for Scotland to negociate with UK about not to deploy unnecessary border between two to countries in case of the independence of Scotland.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Dear Tamás,
      I fully agree with your comments. If Europe goes the way you suggest, it would act as a guarantor of democracy. Therefore Scotish and Catalans would be free to express their oppinion freely in their own referendums.
      I live in Catalonia. I am a soberanist. I think that Catalonia would have a bright future as an independent country within the EU whatever the structure of this EU: federal or nation state.
      I would add to your previous comments, that EU should force Spain to accept holding a referendum as UK agreed with Scotland

      Support Catalan Referendum and let democracy a chance

    • avatar
      Adrian

      If the EU does this it will LOSE all members with issues.
      The EU can choose of course.

  15. avatar
    Victor

    Due to its high activity (643 comments), I used to post my comments at the attached forum about Catalonia independence:
    https://www.debatingeurope.eu/2012/10/08/should-catalonia-be-independent/#.UeEYNqwhVuI

    Unfortunately, the moderator had to close the forum because some radical unionists boycotted the forum by invoking Nazi Analogies (Godwin’s Law)

    I want to express my frustation for closing this thread, because by doing so, the freedom of this forum of debate has been truncated and the power has been given to the ones who do not want to discuss.

    I really enjoy the format and comments of this forum debatingeurope.eu, so I will start reporting here what I think might be interesting to EU about what is going on in Catalonia today.

    If any radical comment invokes the Godwin’s Law, I beg to the moderator to not close the thread but just remove it.

  16. avatar
    Victor

    On Saturday 29th June 2013 evening, 90,000 people gathered in FC Barcelona Camp Nou stadium to attend a concert backing Catalonia’s right to self-determination. Find video below:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BHNb2jVEB4

    The event, organised by civil society and without public funding, called for a self-determination referendum in 2014

    On the Catalonia tv, the concert had a maximum audience of 878,000 viewers at 23:02. And 32,3 % of share.

    The concert was trending topic in Spain, with 14.000 tweets

    Concert-goers gave more than 25000 Kg of non-perishable food items to the Food Bank. A sign of solidarity and awareness of citizenship of Catalan soberanist people. See link below:
    https://www.bancdelsaliments.org/ca/noticies/gran-recollida-drsquoaliments-al-concert-per-la-llibertat/_noticia:238/

    It is worth to mention that Spanish media applied a strong pressure to the musicians not to perform at the concert (For example, the singer Dyango said “he had received threats of all kinds”).

    More information on the link below:
    http://www.catalannewsagency.com/news/politics/massive-concert-supporting-catalonia%E2%80%99s-self-determination-ignored-spanish-politicians

  17. avatar
    Victor

    The Catalan Society of Sociolinguistics (SOCS) has issued a statement regarding the “political offensive against the use of Catalan by the authorities of the Kingdom of Spain” urging the international scientific community to request the UNESCO and the Council of Europe ” investigate and, where appropriate, formally condemn the policies that clearly seek to harm the Catalan-speaking community.”
    http://www.helpcatalonia.cat/2013/07/catalan-society-of-sociolinguistics.html

    If Catalonia were a state within the United States of Europe, current language and cultural struggle that Catalans suffer within Spain would be impossible.

  18. avatar
    Victor

    The Catalonia government said will seek to bar the Constitutional Court’s chief justice from presiding because the he acknowledged that was a card-carrying member of the Popular Party (PP). See link below

    http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/23/inenglish/1374606381_971693.html

    In 2010, this Constitutional Court crushed the Estatut (Catalan local constitution) after being agreed at the Catalan & Spanish parliament as well as accepted by Catalan people at 2006 referendum.

    According to the above, it is clear that Spain is a country where people’s democratic will is systematically subjugated to a political tribunal controlled by major parties (PP or PSOE) without any appeal allowed.

    The normal division of powers is legislature, executive, and judiciary, … but unfortunately Spain is different.
    Where is the separation of powers? Where is democracy?
    Why EU is not acting to solve abnormality?

    If Catalonia were a state within the United States of Europe, the will of the Catalan people would free from Spanish CC subjugation.

    • avatar
      Eurosity

      hahaaha, good joke mate

  19. avatar
    Liz Dixit

    Great article of Liz Castro: ‘The Gartner Hype Cycle of Catalan Independence’

    ‘ … Soon after the elections, CiU and ERC joined forces and agreed on a Legislative Agreement that guaranteed the holding of a referendum on Catalonia’s political future and the stability of the Government. In the newly established Government, a Foreign Affairs office was created within the Executive Department. In January, the Catalan Parliament approved a Declaration of Sovereignty, asserting the right to choose Catalonia’s future democratically. In February, the National Transition Advisory Council was constituted. This is a 14-member group of distinguished citizens charged with researching and developing the state structures that will be needed in the Catalan State, among other responsibilities. And just this week, all of the political parties in the Catalan Parliament, except for the anti-Catalanist PP and Ciutadans, voted in favor of creating a Committee on the Right to Decide which will study and prepare a strategy for holding a democratic referendum for independence.

    The way I see it, all of these steps are landmarks on the road up the Gartner slope of enlightenment. In technology, these milestones may be less sexy than the overblown hype at the peak of inflated expectations, but they are long-term and lasting and serve as a platform for future developments.
    …’

    http://www.catalanviews.com/node/102
    http://www.elizabethcastro.com

  20. avatar
    Roberto

    The question is back the front. The whole point of the EU project after WWII was to reduce nationalist tensions and disturbances and substitute a European identity for more local ones to avert the wars that used to be so common. An independent Catalonia would soon be demanding France to “free” Rousillion to rejoin Catalonia. The complications added by the increasingly bitter and conflicting nationalist movements, Spanish v Catalan, Catalan v French, French and Spanish v Basque, etc, could dangerously destabilise Spain and perhaps Europe with dangerously unpredictable results. I think that at this time a renegotiation of Spain into a more formalised federal structure and the reform of the institutions whose weaknesses have been exposed by the crisis would make more sense. The time for discussing independence is when Spain and Europe are on firm foundations and prospering and people start feel strongly European and Europe has taken over the functions of a nation state like defence, That is still generations away. And independence now would not bring prosperity, it would lead to a worsening of the economic crisis as international businesses pulled out of Iberia and both sides diverted large amounts of business away from each other. I agree with Kasia, independence (in this time) will make the crisis much worse and who knows where it could lead as feelings become white hot. This is why Catalans, like people in other regions, voted overwhelmingly for the 1978 Spanish constitution, they did not want the nightmares of the past to return.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Dear Roberto,
      Demanding France to “free” Rousillion to rejoin Catalonia would only have sence if Rousillion people would like to do so and so far they are OK in France…
      Come back to reality, following your statement, Germany would have rejoined Austria 50 years ago…

      1978 Spanish constitution was voted in a different political enviroment than today and also with the Spanish army pointing the politicians to ensure the ‘sacred unity of Spain’…
      During more than 30 years, Catalans have tried Spain to evolve to a federal model without any outcome but cultural, economic and political boycotts…

      You talk about ‘ the nightmares of the past’, but many Catalans like me think that the nightmare is to live a a State who does not accept your identity and will to hold a referendum

      We want to VOTE!
      Why is so difficult to understand? Why are we not allowed to do so?

  21. avatar
    Jordi Bacardit

    All that you say is fine … but you must understand that Spain has always wanted only to Catalonia interest. NEVER had any feeling of sympathy for Catalonia and the Catalans. All we want is to be able to take advantage of our money and resources. And because we have more? Because we are a village entrepreneur, worker, always looking to the future with optimism. And, as the saying popular: we remove bread from under the stones.
    And we thank Spain? With a lot more taxes than the rest of the Spanish terrirori. More difficulties in all paperwork, more attacks on it more sacred that we have: our language. And this is only a small part … There are many more expemples makes us the humiliating.
    Therefore, the conclusion is simple: we do not want independence for a mere whim. We want to survive.
    Plain and simple.

  22. avatar
    Jordi Bacardit

    Roberto:
    The Catalans do not want to deal with anyone. Neither France nor Spain nor Europe. Not silly. Do not think for a moment that our case is the same as Germany had in the 30s. We are a peaceful people. We know from long ago that the union of the Catalan-speaking territories is not possible. We know perfectly. You have to be very clear that the situation is that our culture and our economy is very precarious. And not our fault. That’s the limitation that puts Madrid. Forbids us to have direct flights to America. We take initiative prohibits companies that have not gone through fitre Madrid and a long list of things you know nothing about and surprised.
    Because we massively vote for the constitution of 78? Because you still remember the 78 soldiers commanded much in Spain. And the Catalans wanted security. If the constitution could guarantee security, the people vote. In 74 even ran a death penalty in Catalan (Salvador Puig Antich). No guarantee for perpetual union with Spain. But to avoid further military power, we did so much damage during the Franco dictatorship (which by the way had the support of USA)
    We are deeply European. We want to be members of the European Union. And we are a peaceful people.

    • avatar
      Eurosity

      althought your English is poor I slightly got what you meant. The Catalans think that you guys are a unique case and that you are just the center of the globe. Wake up guys… we’re not in the middle ages anymore…

  23. avatar
    Roberto

    The entire Catalan push of recent times comes from the economic crisis of now. The roots of that crisis are actually European, not Spanish/Irish/Portuguese, the mad idea of getting everyone into the same monetary system as Germany, even though their economies were very different. There were economist and even amateurs like me who predicted this would lead to economic chaos because the monetary rates would be completely unconnected with national economic structural and cyclic realities. This resulted in an immense housing speculative bubble that distorted the economy and finally crashed it – as it always does. I warned people years earlier that this was what was happening and all I got for my efforts were insults. Catalonia’s business and political elites were as much responsible for creating this catastrophic property bubble as anybody else, and now they are blaming everything on everybody else and using the institutions of the Catalan state to divert attention and blame away from themselves. It is therefore hardly surprising that the rest of Spain is reacting angrily but this is just the politics of polarisation that the Catalan elite is deliberately fomenting to claim victimisation and innocence, along with a very nicely, simplistic and distorted presentation of the last thousand years of history as a victim for the semi educated and historically naive. It is a sickening sight of political opportunism and sets an extremely dangerous precedent for the stability of Europe as a whole. It was exactly this kind of thing that used to cause strife and war in the hundred years before 1945 and was precisely the thing that the EU was designed to put an end to. (By the way, I hate the PP who also thrive on this irresponsibly dangerous polarization but that is entirely beside the point.)

    • avatar
      Victor

      Roberto,

      I do think that €uro is a great tool to enhance economic exchange in EU and at the end improve the competivity of the Eurozone. In fact, I think that most of the real growth (not linked to housing speculative bubble) in the last 10 years is thanks to €uro. In my opinion, the solution to solve economic distortions is a better union like a Federal Europe and obviously keep the €uro.

      You say that ‘Catalonia’s elites … are blaming everything on everybody else and using the institutions of the Catalan state to divert attention’.
      – First, unfortunately we have no Catalan State, just a very limited autonomy that is systematically crushed by Spanish State
      – Second, Catalan will for independence is coming from middle class people and not Elites that tend to be against

      Finally you blame Catalan politics as ‘extremely dangerous precedent for the stability of Europe’, when in fact they are just trying to bring solutions using a democratic Referendum… Why are you so scared about democracy?

  24. avatar
    Roberto Rivas

    Jordi,
    Blaming shepherds on the high plains of the interior or farmers living in isolated villages essentially cut off from the rest of the world, scraping a very, very hard life with the little they had from an unforgiving land for not being industrialists and entrepreneurs is plainly ridiculous and lacking in understanding of their situation. Contrasting the “peaceful” Catalans with the (implicitly) essentialy aggressive, warlike Germans is equally insulting to the Germans. In both cases your insulting statements utterly fail to comprehend the special circumstances of those people, their time and place. It also is a demonstration of that supreme arrogance and hubris that lies at the heart of the extremist nationalism at the of this campaign for independence.

    To reiterate, this campaign is essentially being fomented by the incestuous interests of the politico-banking-property elite of Catalonia who bear a great part in the property-banking debacle of Catalonia and now wish to make the rest of Spain the scapegoat for their economic sins. And while the rest of blame also bears equally as much responsibility, as does Europe, especially Europe, for engendering the ultimately catastrophic property bubble, the rest of Spain at least has the grace (though not the PP!) for accepting its part of the blame!!!!

    • avatar
      Victor

      Roberto,

      I really cannot see any insult on Jordi’s words…
      On the other hand, you are say that the willingness of independece of catalans is ‘a demonstration of that supreme arrogance’ and a ‘campaign essentially being fomented by the incestuous interests of the politico-banking-property elite of Catalonia’… That is for sure an interesting but insulting opionion..

      I also want to say that most of catalans have a profund feeling of admiration towards Germany as an high developed industrial country, so I do not see the point of your statements.

  25. avatar
    Roberto Rivas

    Jordi,

    In the time of Isabella II, way back in the 19th century, the central Spanish government instituted a policy of tarrifs designed to foster the development of industry in Spain. Effectively the rural regions of Spain right through the second half of the 19th century and for most of the 20th century subsidised industrial development in Catalonia and the Basque Country through paying higher prices for their goods. Naturally there was a lot of complaints from people who argued that the standard of living for the great majority of Spaniards was being reduced just for the benefit of Catalonia and the Basque Country and that free trade with more advanced industrial countries like Britain, France and Belgium would allow the great mass of Spaniards to enjoy a better standard of living. But many, including the government decided, no, it was necessary for the country to develop its own industrial base and a wise decision that proved, because if it handn’t been done, Spain would now be around the level of Portugal.

    This policy of subsidising industrial development through protective tarrifs was intensified under Franco’s regime. Not that he was a nice fellow, but from the realisation that in the modern world you are nothing without advanced industry, especially a country bereft of large natural resources, particularly hydrocarbons.

    So under the direction of Franco’s regime, the rest of Spain invested massively in expanding the industrial base of Catalonia and the Basque Country through major works like modern making the Port of Barcelona the biggest and most modern port on the Mediterranean, the first modern high speed highway, the first mass production car company in Spain (SEAT), expansion of the petro chemical industry, through state bodies like the INI (Instituto Nacional de Industria), the construction of Spain’s first nuclear power plant, etc. These large enterprises in turn super-charged the economic growth in Catalonia as they made possible thousands of smaller private enterprises supplying and servicing them. To make all this work there was a huge migration of people from other parts of Spain, LEAVING BEHIND THEIR PARENTS in the rural villages and towns, to Barcelona and its satellite cities, to build and man the infrastructure and factories that were powering this explosive economic growth.

    Thus, the already substantial industrial base that had been subsidized by Spain through tarrifs on imports, was now vastly expanded with the help of massive direct investment by the taxpayer of ALL OF POOR, RURAL SPAIN. And that was a good thing, because it meant that by the 1970s Spain was a major industrial country.

    And what do the Catalanists say now to the rest of Spain? “Oh, we did it all on our own, we are special, hardworking, creative people; all you ever did was take, take, take.”

    Well here’s my answer,

    BULLSHIT!

  26. avatar
    Roberto Rivas

    I apologise for some of the trips in grammar and sentence construction, I write and post far too quickly. Goodnight

  27. avatar
    Roberto Rivas

    Victor,

    The tariffs that were imposed from the time of Isabel II forced all of Spain to pay higher prices for goods and this powered the industrialisation of Catalonia through the second half of the 19th century and the 20th century. Then, during from the 1950s right through the “Spanish Miracle Years of the 60s and early 70s there was massive Spanish state investment directed into Catalan industry through organisations like the Instituto Nacional de Industria, SEAT, nuclear power, the expansion of the port, etc, which supercharged the industrial development of Barcelona, financed largely by the taxpayers of ALL of Spain. Thus, the modern industrial economy of Catalonia (and the Basque Country and Madrid) is the result of a long and massive SPANISH investment, which meant underinvestment in the rural areas and higher prices for good and the mass emigration of the young and skilled to the big industrial cities. There is a quid pro quo for all this. Without that historic investment, the economy of greater Barcelona would not be half of what it is today.

    Finally, note, transfer payments from one region to another are common across Europe. There are large transfers from the south east of the UK, essentially London, to the north. There are big transfers from northern Italy to the south and there are transfers from Paris to the rural areas of France, there are transfers from Helsinki to the north of Finland and there are big transfers from the rich states of old western Germany like Bavaria to the poorer former east German states like Brandenburg. So the situation of Catalonia is not unique at all but there is a difference from all the other internal transfers payments in the rest of Europe – poor, rural Spain, which the Catalans have developed a rich language of insults for, invested heavily, either through trade protection by tariffs or direct investment by the state, in building the industrial pre-eminence of Catalonia and yet the nationalist Catalan parties conveniently forget that basic historic fact because it does not suit them. It is like they are walking about with historic amnesia saying the rest of Spain always took and that is pure historic nonsense.

    And that deserves an angry rebuttal. Maybe it will fix your broken memories.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Roberto,

      You are not supporting your statements without any external link, and at the same time say that I have ‘broken memories’… Interestingly you have your own memory in very high esteem…

      OK, then… Let’s take some time review some information I just found at the inet

      1) SEAT stablished in Barcelona because it was the best place for this investment and then FIAT required this location to accept the project. See links below:

      – ‘Even though there were initial thoughts of locating in less developed inland cities like Valladolid and Burgos, it was decided that the company’s plant would be constructed in the duty-free zone area of the Port of Barcelona (Barcelona Zona Franca), which would offer better access to the Mediterranean shipping and the rest of Europe through rail and road connections across the nearby French border. Barcelona was after all a city with an industrial history that had built up expertise in complex industrial enterprises since the latter part of the 19th century; it was also the host location of many early historical Spanish car makers, like Hispano-Suiza and Elizalde, and subsidiaries of foreign car makers, like ‘Ford Motor Ibérica’ and ‘General Motors Peninsular’.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAT
      – ‘ FIAT automobile manufacturer’s desire to install the SEAT factory in Barcelona due to its port and the local qualified workforce’
      http://www.sapiens.cat/ca/notices/2012/11/20th-century-dictatorships-and-disenchantment-3023.php

      2) Let’s compare Catalonia Fiscal Imbalance of Catalonia with Bavaria Coun
      try (% GDP). In Germany the limit is 4%, while Catalonia supports a systematic Fiscal Imbalance of 7 to 10,5% with the exception of the olympic games 1993 that was ‘only’ around 5%. See pag 20 on report below:
      http://www.lse.ac.uk/europeaninstitute/leqs/leqspaper20.pdf

      If you read a little bit more, you will see that Catalan cause is not based in your ‘broken memories’ or ‘ historic amnesia ‘, but a long history of economical imbalance and a cultural assimilation pressure.

      Catalan people just want to vote in a referendum to decide if we want to keep living in Spain or set up a new state… there are no insults or anger, just our will for freedom…

      This is the essence of democracy that do not deserve your ‘angry rebuttal’.

  28. avatar
    Roberto Rivas

    ( I don’t want to kill the Catalan identity and culture. Indeed, the strong identities and rivalries within Spain are good, indeed healthy and creative, up to a point. They are now threatening to become dangerous and it was the instability caused by the nationalisms of the 19th and early 20th centuries that the European Union was created to tame.)

    • avatar
      Victor

      Roberto,
      First of all, I am happy that you do not want to kill my Catalan identity and culture, because it means that you respect human rights.
      Rivalries withing Spain are good in football, but in the economic and playground are terrible when one party (Spanish gov.) is not playing fair… see some examples:

      – Spanish goverment is prohibitting direct flights to Barcelona’s Airport since the 50’s to many States all over the world to avoid true ompetition with MAD:
      Perú 1954., República Dominicana 1968, Bolívia 1974, Costa Rica 1979
      Guatemala 1971, Mèxic 1978, Uruguai 1979, Xile 1974, EEUU (Miami i San Juan de Puerto Rico) 1973, Canadà 1988, El Salvador 1997, Kuwait 1979, Pakistan 1979, Síria 1979, Tailandia 1979, Corea 1989, Índia 1987, Iraq 1980, Japó 1980, Iran 1996, Malàisia 1993, Costa d’Ivori 1976, Gabon 1976, Guinea Equatorial 1971, Nigèria 1975, Sierra Leone 1976, Kenya 1981, Mali 1990,
      URSS 1976, Croàcia 1997.
      – Most Catalan highways were built on the 70’s & end 80’s and were private investments. Nowadays, there are still high tolls on these roads, so we catalans have to pay them because Spain has built no public motorways as an alternative (as all the other areas in Spain like for example MAD)
      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Red_espa%C3%B1ola_de_autopistas_de_peaje.PNG
      We catalans even make jokes about this. See attached link:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpO_9bpCaUs
      – Barcelona Port is strongly affected by a lack of investment from the Spanish Government in railroads that jeopardizes Hutchison’s investements.
      http://www.catalannewsagency.com/politics/item/barcelona-port-affected-by-a-lack-of-investment-from-the-spanish-government

      I don’t really see any ‘healthy rivalry’ on this relationship…
      Catalan nationalists have tried to change the Spanish state to a federal structure for the lasts 35 years getting just your ‘angry rebuttal’ in response… no wonder why we want to become independent.

  29. avatar
    Jorge Herrada

    The lack of enthusiasm that the Catalan population feel today about the continuity of catalonia as an autonomous community in Spain is in question in part because of a tendency in Spanish society itself, which keeps different levels a hostile attitude towards the use of the Catalan language and everything that represents the cultural difference in which the Catalans base their identity and pride.

    It seems that, If the catalans do no take action, the future for their cultural traits will suffer the same fate as occitan language, in Southern France, now in clear decline (thanks to French policies towards minority languages in France).

    A sad end for the cultural heirs of such important political entity of medieval times as it was the Crown of Aragon (not to be missed with “Kingdom of Aragon”).

    A good description of the current situation -by english explicant- can be found in the below youtube entry:
    “Catalonia: The future is another country”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxdlD5KuCA

  30. avatar
    Jorge Herrada

    Agree, “healthy rivalry” seems not to be the case.

    The lack of enthusiasm that the Catalan population feel today about the continuity of catalonia as an autonomous community in Spain is in question in part because of a tendency in Spanish society itself, which keeps different levels a hostile attitude towards the use of the Catalan language and everything that represents the cultural difference in which the Catalans base their identity and pride.

    It seemsthat If the catalans do no take action, the future for their cultural traits will suffer the same fate as occitan language, in Southern France, now in clear decline (thanks to French policies towards minority languages in France).

    A sad end for the cultural heirs of such important political entity of medieval times as it was the Crown of Aragon (not to be missed with “Kingdom of Aragon”).

    A good description of the current situation -by english explicant- can be found in the below youtube entry:
    “Catalonia: The future is another country”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxdlD5KuCA

  31. avatar
    Victor

    Spanish Constitutional Court Judge Violates Spanish Constitution

    Unbelievable but true, the president of the Spanish Constitutional Court Francisco Perez de los Cobos, publicly admitted recently that he had been a member of the governing Popular Party while a magistrate of the Constitutional Court, the Supreme Court in Spain, specifically between 2008 and 2011. He took the oath as a Constitutional Court magistrate on 29 December 2010.

    Spanish law bans party membership for judges and magistrates. By law, appointment for such a position while being an active member of any political party is considered incompatible. This is because it may jeopardise the judge’s impartiality with justice thus losing its essence.

    This principle is established in Article 127 of the Constitution, in Article 395 of the Organic Law of the Judiciary, and in Article 19 of the Law ruling the Constitutional Court (LOTC): “Judges and magistrates may not belong to political parties while they are active”. Moreover, the same Article 19 of the LOTC says that in case of incompatibility, the judge should cease their incompatible activity, and in case this does not occur within 10 days, it shall be understood that he does not accept the appointment as magistrate the court assigned.

    How can it be then, that a judge of the Constitutional Court (the supreme interpreter of the Spanish Constitution), has been an active member of a political party for more than a year without being removed from his position? What’s more, how is it he has made it public and has not been removed yet?

  32. avatar
    Jake Winnings

    It is a shame to see people’s brain cells flushed down by nationalism.
    stop preaching hate and separatism, Catalonia should be a happy hi tech society like California, where people don’t fall for such non sense. Yes, an independent Catalonia will be 5 times richer, but Spain will will be 5 times poorer. So you don’t care if you ruin the lives and dreams of Millions of kids, just because you feel happy to call your self a hater and a separatist?

    Everyday i hear the same arguments:

    -We were independent in the year 1200,
    -Spain steals from us
    -protect our language.

    All i hear is me, me , me ,me!

    first, Aragon and Castile formed Spain
    -Spain does not steal because your are all Spaniards! Catalonia and Basc region was developed to the detriment of other regions.

    – No body cares about the Catalan language. it actually leads to an immoral society, where native Catalans feel superior to the Andaluz and Gallegos living in Catalonia, forcing their kids to learn Catalan, Calling them poor, beggars and that Catalonia don’t need them.Such a thing does not exist in other bilingual regions , take an example. compare a Catalan kid and a kid from Valencia. The main difference is one has more class and elegance, understanding of the world, harmonious, and has more free will, etc etc compared to the other who has a more villager and peasant edge. And this is not only because of the Language but with nationalism combined. I’m not saying bilingualism is bad, but you don’t have the right to force Andaluzian kids, to learn a minority language. All that time and effort should be devoted to a more useful language like English or Chinese. Kids are already having a hard time with normal subjects. Then thanks to nationalism, they are forced to learn a minority language. Forced to wear starry flags, even if their parents where Spanish, they grow up hating Spain, preaching separatism to their own kids. It is very sad. If America functioned like Catalonia, we’ll all move back to Germany, Ireland,Uk, Italy etc etc!

    If you have ever been to Spain, can you identify a Catalan kid from and the Valenciano kid based on the description above?

    And funny thing is we all know that Catalonia will NEVER be independent.
    So, Catalans;

    don’t let nationalism destroy your beautiful nation. What will Catalonia gain if independent with complete division of its people? is it worth it?. What about love, happiness, peace and harmony? Why do you want Catalonia to look like the Arab Spring? What about California, where kids can dream, play and not falling into ethnically based politics?

    but thanks to God, we know hate and racism can not win in Catalonia.
    more than 6.5 million of its people don’t want separatists.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Jake,
      If you are so sure that more than 6,5 million Catalans don’t want independence, why you do not accept Catalan referendum to show your reality to the world?

      Ps. Approx. 2 million people attended to the Catalan way demonstration… If there are 7,5 people in Catalonia … There is 1 million people missing in your calculation…
      http://www.helpcatalonia.cat/2013/09/the-catalan-way-certified-record.html?m=1

  33. avatar
    Xavi R

    With great sadness I read Jake’s post.
    From your post it seems that the Catalans are the devil. I can tell you that, fortunately, Catalans are like any other people. And like any other community, all we want is to exercise the right to decide how we want to organize ourselves politically. And we will take that decision with scrupulous respect to the democracy that has made Europe a flourishing community.
    Jake, do you realize that the essence of your speech is the true argument explaining why most catalans want Catalonia to be an independent state?
    You talk about hate with hate in your words. Personally, I see renewed hope in catalan people faces, as anyone could see in the demonstrations of 11 sept. 2012 and 11th sept. 2013 (Catalan Way). Do you really think hate can motivate that more than 1,5 million people organize themselves in such a peaceful demonstration?
    You talk about kids. I am really proud to have shown my kids that you can protest without any violence, any insult, any negative incident, with people giving their hands, collaborating to make the protest a success. Do you really think that hate is able to do that? If you think so, I feel you are very, very wrong.
    Regarding the nationalism, I’ll tell you an anecdote:
    Esteve Terradas founding member of the Science Section of the Institute of Catalan Studies invited Albert Einstein to visit Barcelona in 1923. Einstein met Rafael Campalans (engineer, physicist and politician), who was the head of the Board of Education of the Mancomunitat (commonwealth) and leader of a new socialist and democratic current that arranged the fight for social justice with the recognition of the Catalan national identity. After a long explanation of the political situation in Catalonia and Spain, Einstein said: “Now I understand and justify your paradoxical nationalist socialism. But this is not true nationalism! Believe me, do not use this unfortunate name.”
    Einstein realized that catalan nationalism was not the classic essentialist nationalism, reactionary and undemocratic he had known. Campalans trusted Einstein and begun using the word “catalanism”, which defines the caring of the catalan language and culture, model of society and catalan institutions. Now, 2013 all the mentioned are in danger because of the Spanish State continued intolerance with the catalan, basque, galician, … nationalities, that is to say all those that are not castillian.
    José Ignacio Wert, Spanish ministry of Education said in the Spanish parliament some months ago that the objective of the new Law for Education (to be approved soon) was to hispanize catalan children. Many people, not only in Catalonia of course, was shocked by these words.
    But the real problem is that the Spanish State has tried to violently castilenize Spain during the last 3 centuries. In other words, to make the castillian nationality the only one by force. Spanish State is reaping was what sown.
    Spanish State would be a success story if decisions were taken with consensus, respect and tolerance. For decades Spanish politicians are sinking Spanish Spain, and dragging the Spanish people to disaster, not the Catalans.
    I have the hope that when Catalonia is independent, the Spanish people will strike on the table and say “That’s enough!”. The Spanish people do not deserve to be governed by such incompetent caste who have maintained their privileges for themselves and their families during the last 150 years.
    If you want we can also talk about the “transition” from the Franco dictatorship to the current “democracy”.

  34. avatar
    Xavi R

    Jake, a quick comment on the Catalan language at schools in Catalonia.
    As you may know, Catalan immersion was decided after a political consensus of the 90% of the Catalan parliament some decades ago.
    The purpose was that the children knew both Catalan and Spanish language and a foreign language (English in most cases) with the objective to ensure equal opportunities and to avoid the creation of 2 separated language communities, which would have been a complete disaster for the social integration.
    Catalan children are bilingual. The linguistic immersion has been a success and taken as an example by EU reports.
    Aranese, a Gascon Occitan dialect, is also an official language in all Catalonia and subject to special protection in the Aran Valley.
    As you probably know, families may ask Catalan Government to provide school places for their children with specific Spanish language immersion. In the current school period (2013-2014) only 17 families out of 750.000 children asked for the Spanish language schooling.
    This is because Spanish language is predominant in many situations: TV, radio, cinema, newspapers, magazines, Courts, business with Spanish people, etc.
    I can assure you that if I thought my children would not be able to learn Spanish and Catalan properly I would be the first one to protest. Fortunately, this is not the case. The competence in foreign languages should be our concern. Many more teachers should be able to teach using a foreign language and that means teacher training plans and funds.
    The reports from the Spanish Ministry of Education show that Catalan children have the same Spanish language competence (in some cases, better) than in any zone in Spain.
    45.92% of citizens over 15 years old declare Spanish as their habitual language of use, 35.64% for Catalan, and 11.95% both. But, we are bilinguals! and we have no problems with the language. Regrettably, artificial controversy has always come from outside of Catalonia.
    A final thought. Last surveys show that independence would win a referendum: “Yes” 60%, “No” 35%, approx. How do you explain most Catalans would support Catalonia independence regardless they speak or feel Catalan or Spanish? I mean, how do you explain that according to the “description” of Catalonia you have written?
    Perhaps the country you have described exists, but I cannot recognize it as Catalonia. Not by any means.

  35. avatar
    Victor

    SPANISH PM Incoherence: Western Sahara self determination,Yes. Catalonia, No.

    Mariano Rajoy, Spanish Prime Minister, in his speech to the UN General Assembly in New York defended the self-determination of Western Sahara, while he is repeatedly denying this same right to the people of Catalonia.

    Coherence would be to either deny or defend this right in both cases. The right of self-determination is recognised in the UN Charter. It is not a conditional right, as some argue, only acceptable in processes of decolonisation, but a political right of all peoples in the world, whatever the conditions of their existence might be – as the case of the independence of Norway from Sweden in 1905, Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia and Baltic countries from the USSR in 1990s or Slovakia in 1992 prove.

    Support Catalan referendum and give democracy a chance.
    :-)

  36. avatar
    Jake Winnings

    Victor, No sovereign country will ever accept a referendum on independence . If they did, then what will be the essence of the “State” and ” The Constitution”?
    You keep talking about the right to decide on independence. Who told you in the first place that you had the right to divide a country? It makes no sense to me.
    If for example, Catalonia was part of France, what do you think will be the reaction from Paris?
    I’ll tell you what, immediate suspension of the autonomy and Prison for all traitors. And division of the autonomy into many parts . It is obvious that Paris/France is Cold iced , when it comes to national integrity. And since Spain is obviously more democratic, Catalan nationalist can freely drag the name of Spain into mud.

    and to Xavi, i read you’re doing your homework as a Catalan Parent in teaching your kids to protest o_0. I don’t know if that sounds normal to you but… it just confirms what i see in Catalonia.

    Xavi, you can change, its not too late. instead of teaching your kids to protest, tell them that they should not get involved with nationalism, they should be proud of who they are, Catalan and Spanish, Valencian and Spanish, Gallego and Spanish etc etc.That they are not different. Kids should have a wide and open view of the world. Don’t make your kids feel like they are hated in in Valencia, Andalusia, Aragon….because they are not.
    because in the end, we are all humans, don’t blame Castilians for what their ancestors did 300 years ago, tell them that you believe Spain should be a happy country with all its nationalities, and that the language is just a detail but what matters more is the people. You can’t possibly love a language more than your fellow country men, Asturain, Basc, Galego, Catalan, Valencian etc
    * As i mentioned before, Catalan parents preaching politcal protest to their kids will only lead to an obvious behavior that i described above. What do think you are doing when you promote your kids to start protesting for independence, do you think this won’t affect them when they grow up? They will always feel bad inside and also feel different from others , Please make your kids to be loving, and responsible. There’s nothing responsible in teaching kids hate and protesting. That’s just ugly… and messed up.

    Its just so sad when i visit Catalonia and see parents wrapping their kids with separatist flags, painting their faces, kids holding posters “Catalonia is not Spain” It breaks my heart….and im not
    even Spanish or Catalan, but such a thing should not be happening in a developed country. I don’t know why i always feel the need to defend Catalonia and Spain but its just that I truly love Catalonia … and i can’t believe how much things have changed in just a few years, Catalonia used to be a happy nation, i remembered the joy, beautiful and happy people, the passion for life, everyone cheerful and trying to make the most of life, etc etc Only God knows how much i missed the atmosphere…. And now, it seems like nationalist have turned every thing around, till its believable by many Catalans.

    The world is moving at a very fast pace, even Spain, Italy, etc are having trouble catching up, all countries trying to reach for the moon, (literally)( the war to conquer Space…, don’t you want your kid to be part of this new era?, together, Spain can do really great things, if all nationalities accept their differences and use it as a force and not as a weakness, Catalonia and Spain will be great.

    Don’t be fooled by the European blanket because EU will obviously collapse and you’ll have to depend on each other for success. All Spanish nationalities working to make a great european Nation, even more powerful than France or Germany.

    Sure, the US will want to divide many countries so that in the end it will be the only great one, and this is what Europe is trying to fight against, , forget about the mad politics from Madrid or Catalonia. Be positive, encourage Spain trying to catch up with the US or Japan, do not limit the possibilities of your children, some might end up wanting to work in the Canaries, basc, Valencia or in Madrid, which is a good thing, and that’s exactly the beauty in being different, with different cultures, because its a helping hand which makes and mold great people. they should not have to defend themselves every time because they are Catalan. Don’t make them feel like they are rejected, because Spain cares for all Spaniards equally, no one should feel like they are more special than others because it will only lead to hate.

    And on the right to decide, i’ll say that. Catalonia belongs to all Catalans as much as Spain belongs to all Spaniards.

    The fate of the Spanish land belongs to all Spaniards same as the fate of the Catalan territory belongs to all Catalans. This is the simple theory that almost every outsider (non Spanish or Catalan) will use. Even the European Union will judge using this simple Theory. I’ve asked many people what they think about the Catalan situation and they all said the same thing. If Catalonia believes that much in referendum they should ask all Spain to vote to allow their referendum. This is the only way to prove that Catalonia is a democratic nation that follows the rules.

    I am not saying that Madrid is a saint, but Catalan nationalist might be on the other side…Already!

    • avatar
      Xavi R

      Jake, I honestly think you should keep calm. The independence of Catalonia is not a drama and I find it is very difficult to develop a conversation with such amount of offending statements, which most of them seem to be motivated by prejudices. You are drawing pictures that have nothing to do with reality. For instance, you are not really interested in knowing the way I teach my children, but in giving a negative impression to the world, based on an extract of the whole story. Disappointing. You will understand that I am not posting comments in the debate to be blamed. Sorry to have bothered you.

      I am personally not interested in writing an endless list of complaints and grievances. That would be useless and boring. I am not blaming Spanish people.
      We are not from another planet. 300 years after Catalonia lost its Constitutions and Laws by force, Catalan people just want the same as any other people in Europe. Nothing more, nothing less. All we ask is respect to our democratic and peaceful decision.
      Let’s vote and we will know people’s will. Then, we will be able to talk about the best way this decision can be politically implemented. I think this is the most logical solution to the Catalonia-Spain problem arisen, and this is the solution applied by UK and Canada.

  37. avatar
    Jake Winnings

    Xavi, when you asked if
    “Do you really think that hate is able to do that?”
    i’ll say the obvious, hate can move mountains, just google “hate and nationalism” and read articles on how those two are always linked. if you don’t like, you hate. Its a Yes or No situation. Just like the Likes and Hate buttons on youtube.
    Do you understand now?

  38. avatar
    Jake Winnings

    “A final thought. Last surveys show that independence would win a referendum: “Yes” 60%, “No” 35%, approx. How do you explain most Catalans would support Catalonia independence regardless they speak or feel Catalan or Spanish? I mean, how do you explain that according to the “description” of Catalonia you have written?
    Perhaps the country you have described exists, but I cannot recognize it as Catalonia. Not by any means.”

    i’ll say that the simple explanation is that people in very rich region of countries, will always vote yes with high majority because we are all selfish inside, we want to keep all the money, power etc to ourselves. So that’s no proof.

  39. avatar
    Jake Winnings

    After going thru many Catalan articles on independence,
    I’ve come to the conclusion that, the only way to make Catalans happy and to solve this problem, is for Spain to allow the referendum.
    I see it has more to do with respect/self identity than money. (if im not mistaken)
    And it will make every one more comfortable.
    Or maybe Spain should give Catalonia more Financial Freedoms?
    But I still do not understand how Catalans can say that Spain steals their money, when Spain is always looking for the best interest of all Spaniards including the Catalans. I think this judgement is unfair. The tax rates are obviously different because Catalonia is richer than most regions and has a population of 8M people… or maybe there’s more to this that i still can’t understand…
    Well, i wish the best for Catalonia.

    Xavi, sorry if i offended you.(now that i read my comments, i think it sounds like im angry) Peace.

  40. avatar
    Xavi R

    Jake, thank you for your comment, which I appreciate very much.

    I think you are right and it has more to do with respect than economic reasons.

    In 2006 we voted in a referendum a new Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, approved by both the Catalan and the Spanish Parliaments. Four years later, the Constitutional Court of Spain rewrote 14 articles and dictated the interpretation for 27 more, mainly relating to language, justice and fiscal policy.

    The resulting Statute of Autonomy has never been voted. This made that many Catalans decided that independence was the only way to progress as a modern and prosperous society.

    The effects of the sentence of the Constitutional Court the infamous campaign collecting signatures against the Statute of Catalonia by the Partido Popular in Spain, were devastating in terms of Catalan people feeling part of a common project.

  41. avatar
    Jordi Gali dixit

    Jordi Gali is director of the Centre for Research in International Economics (CREI) and professor at the Universitat Pompeu Fabra. He wrote this interesting article on Spanish newspaper EL PAIS this week.
    Find it automatically translated to English below:

    http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/10/08/opinion/1381229276_518709.html


    CATALONIA: COOPERATION OR CONFRONTATION
    One of the main uncertainties related to the eventual creation of a Catalan state is the fit of this with Europe. Many Catalans are wondering if this new scenario would be consistent with continue to enjoy the economic benefits associated with our membership of the European Union (EU) and the euro zone.

    Although, by definition, a State’s sovereign capacity opens the door to many alternatives, in the case of Catalonia seems to be a broad social and political consensus on the desirability of continuing to maintain the EU and the euro. What are the options for an independent Catalonia to achieve those objectives? In my opinion, the answer to this question can hardly be dissociated from scenario to occur eventual state constitution process itself. Broadly speaking we can distinguish between two possible scenarios: cooperation and confrontation.

    In a cooperative scenario, the Spanish state would accept an outcome favorable to the independence of a possible consulting the Catalan people, initiating a process of collaboration between the two governments to manage an “amicable divorce.” This is precisely the framework provided in the agreement between the Governments of Scotland and the UK for which both parties agree to “work constructively in accordance with the result [of the referendum], whatever this, to protect the interests of the Scottish people and the rest of the UK”. In a scenario of this nature, automatic admission or not of Catalonia in the EU (and, as a result, in the euro area) would be a formality with no more interest than the actual symbolic. In the worst case, such admission would occur after a negotiation process, given the extraordinary circumstances mentioned above, should be able to be simplified and fast. The only really important would be to ensure, during the transitional period, the continuity of rights and obligations that govern economic relations between Catalonia and the rest of the EU, and, in particular, those relating to the free movement of goods, people and capital . This “extension” of the current regime should also include, naturally, the monetary aspects. So, even though during this period would not be formally Catalonia part of the euro zone, the euro would continue to be the official currency and financial institutions should have access Catalan, as at present, to Eurosystem financing mechanisms and European payment mechanism. At the end of the transitional period, and at the time of formal integration, the central bank of the new state would assume his duties as national central bank within the Eurosystem.

    From a practical standpoint, the only difference that this scenario would mean automatic admission regarding that Catalonia would not be formally represented in the government institutions and bodies of the EU (including the Governing Council of the ECB) during the transitional period until final admission. Given the large number of EU member countries and the consequent irrelevance effective each in collective decisions, no one can say without blushing that such action would be a significant detriment to the Catalan economy.

    Even without entering the EU, Catalonia could have the euro as their official currency

    Moreover, a possible scenario of confrontation would be defined by the rejection by the Spanish State to recognize the new state and therefore indefinite blocking admission to the EU (which requires unanimity of the Member States). But to the extent that would preserve the three pillars mentioned above (free movement of goods, labor and capital), this scenario should not result in adverse consequences for the Catalan economy. In contrast to the general view, these rights are not restricted to the EU and there are different ways to articulate (for Switzerland is perhaps the best example in this regard). Moreover, the EU would be the first reciprocity interested in preserving these rights, given the quantitative and qualitative market Catalan and the presence of a large number of European companies based in Catalonia (not forgetting this net contribution to the coffers community).

    On the monetary front, the non-acceptance in the EU would also imply that Catalonia would not be a Member State of the euro area. But Catalonia could keep the euro as their official currency, if it so wished. A “monetary agreement” with the EU as governing in some non-EU countries that use the euro could bless such use and facilitate continuity in monetary and financial relations. In the worst case, financial institutions based in Catalonia could access ECB liquidity through subsidiaries or branches established in the euro area, as do many banks regularly Community in accordance with the relevant standard ECB (the “General Documentation”).

    Which of the scenarios analyzed is more desirable for all parties involved? In a cooperative scenario, where no part aims deliberate injury of another, the possibility of an amicable divorce with minimum costs for all parties should not be a chimera. Beyond the legal formalities, nothing should be able to prevent full continuity, at least de facto, the framework of current economic and financial relations, and the rights and obligations associated. Moreover, it is difficult to imagine an intransigent attitude by the Spanish State before the fait accompli of an independent Catalonia, as this would have significant economic costs for Spain, and no advantage other than the (possible) Catalonia punish satisfaction and its citizens for choosing a different political context today. Among other issues, presumably hostile close the door on negotiations in good faith on the distribution of the debt incurred by the Kingdom of Spain.

    Given that the most likely adverse consequences for Spain in a scenario of confrontation once consummate the Catalan people’s decision to build a state of their own, the current Spanish government intimidating offensive does not seem to enjoy much credibility, their only explanation willingness to bend the desire of the vast majority of Catalan to freely decide their future.

  42. avatar
    Victor

    The Institut Català de Finances (ICF) to be transformed into Catalonia’s public bank

    Barcelona (ACN).- On Tuesday the Catalan Government approved a decree that authorises the Catalan Institute of Finance (Institut Català de Finances, ICF ) to take all the necessary steps for its transformation into Catalonia’s public bank, in accordance with the requirements issued by Spanish and European regulatory bodies. With this change, the Catalan Executive’s aim is “to strengthen the ICF’s role as a tool to support business and the productive economy”, as the Government’s Spokesperson, Francesc Homs, told the press. It will mostly focus on providing liquidity to entrepreneurial projects, particularly from SMEs. With Tuesday’s decision, the ICF will be constituted as a corporation with full independence from the Catalan Government and its agencies and departments. The measure was part of the Parliamentary Stability Agreement signed between the Left-Wing Catalan Independence Party (ERC) and the governing Centre-Right Catalan Nationalist Coalition (CiU). Both parties agreed on creating a set of state structures on the path to statehood within Catalonia’s self-determination process.

    http://www.catalannewsagency.com/politics/item/the-institut-catala-de-finances-icf-to-be-transformed-into-catalonia-s-public-bank

  43. avatar
    Victor

    Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, praised the Catalan version at the University Vrije Universiteit Brussels (Belgium) at a conference on Open Science (24th October 2013)

    “In some of our small language Wikipedias, we have very active communities and there’s maybe a few people there, but they are very passionate about their mother tongue.
    If we have a look some of the larger minor languages of Europe, Catalan Wikipedia is a good example: is far larger than you would it guess from the number of people who are speaking Catalan.
    And is because the Catalan people are quite passionate about their language, which has been historically under threaten.”

    See these comments at the link below:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXj4bVkg2M4&feature=player_embedded
    See all the conference at the link below:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnWKmvrwOOI

  44. avatar
    ara.cat

    ARA NEWS EDITORIAL: ‘Call it by its name: Democracy’ 02/11/2013

    (…) Ever since the debacle of the 2006 Catalan Statute, more and more people have been uniting in favor of “the right to decide,” an initiative that emerged from civil society and has the support of a wide swath of the Catalan Parliament. This is not the personal cause of some leader who could easily be dissuaded after a phone call from someone in the political or economic Establishment. It isn’t a partisan strategy. What we are seeing is a change in mindset of a country that aspires to be a genuine political entity; to be sovereign. It is a country that aspires to certain structures and a direct relationship with Europe in order to better navigate today’s global regime change and to be a sustainable and prosperous country that will bring solutions to the world. (…)
    It is a historic moment. What is at stake is the future of a country that wants its citizens to be able to decide whether they want a state of their own in order to ensure that state’s prosperity. It is an exercise in democratic responsibility. If we are looking for moderation, this is it. The only thing that would be radical would be to forbid free expression, to deny those for and against independence access to the ballot boxes. It is time to move from words to actions. To call things by their name. No one should try to deceive people with words; let the votes speak. The only possible solution has already been invented and its name is very clear: democracy.
    #VolemVotar
    http://www.ara.cat/opinio/Call-by-its-name-Democracy_0_1022297997.html

  45. avatar
    Victor

    Today 19th November 2013, there are 2 important news that answer clearly the question of this forum ‘Is Catalonia’s future in a federal Europe?’

    1) Europarlament has included the Mediterranean corridor in its new infrastructure funds.
    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/content/20131115IPR24720/html/Connecting-Europe-MEPs-approve-new-infrastructure-funds

    2) José María Aznar (former Spanish Prime Minister, member or State Council of Spain, president of FAES PP’s Think Tank ) has declared that he would send to jail to Artur Mas (President of Catalonia) if he would convene an illegal referendum.
    http://www.cadenaser.com/catalunya/articulo/aznar-enviaria-carcel-convocara-referendum-ilegal/csrcsrpor/20131119csrcsrcat_20/Tes

    While Spain is in a fast involution spiral towards former antidemocratic regimes, it is clear that EU emerges in front of the people of Catalonia as the guarantor of human rights and economic development.

    Support Catalan referendum and give democracy a chance.

  46. avatar
    Victor

    What kind of Catalonia do we Catalans want?

    Video in 16 languages where Fernando de Castro presents The Catalan Project, a space for participation with the will to become a major ideas bank for building the Catalonia of the future and a major arguments bank in all languages to make our country understood in the world.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xY_Lnf24-xM

  47. avatar
    Plataforma per la Llengua

    Catalan and the official European Union languages

    Plataforma per la Llengua and Vincle Foundation would like to explain the exceptional case of the Catalan language in the European Union. This video shows that in the EU all languages of a similar size to Catalan are already official languages of the EU. The Catalan case is exceptional due to the permanent opposition of the Spanish government.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JInDzLhMby0

  48. avatar
    Gomes João

    Yes of course, look at Denmark and UK, they let their nations make referenduns at will. But Spain is not as democratic, and that leads to extremisms. Look at ETA they only appeared because Madrid is so authoritarian. Let the catalans decide their own future!

    • avatar
      Victor

      Hey Joao!,
      As a Catalan, I want to thank your support to our cause.
      Support Catalan referendum. Let us vote!

  49. avatar
    Máté Parászka

    yes it should be, every local minority in every country where they are more concentrated, they should form in a legal way an independent region, this would solve a lot of problems around europe.

    • avatar
      Xavi Romeu

      I think it does not matter whether Catalans we have 5 or 1 or 6 or 10 reasons to vote or Independence. This is a matter of democracy. Every Catalan will have his/her own reasons (political, cultural, economical, …), probably a mix of them. Furthermore, what are “good” reasons for someone, may be “bad” ones for someone else. Let’s vote and we will know.
      Personally, I always have considered myself as a Spaniard only for administrative reasons, but never for cultural (in the most global definition of this term). Nor my parents, nor my grandparents, I have to say.I would like to vote for independence because I consider Catalonia as my country, not Spain. As simple as that. I want Catalonia to be a good neighbour State for Spain and better partner for Spain and the rest of countries in the EU.

  50. avatar
    Pol Santaló

    Yes! I’m catalan I think that if another countries such UK and Denmark let their regions to do a referendum why not in Spain? I hope that Europe tells Spain that they have to be democratic, and let Catalonia to decide. Catalonia next state in europe in 2014!

    • avatar
      Victor

      Eduardo,
      This is exactly the same comment that Spanish Empire made about Cuba, Philippines, Argentina, etc… when they were still colonies…

  51. avatar
    Cláudio Haupt Vieira

    Bartek Marcinkowski:

    Democracy. History. Culture. Language. Economy.

    Democracy because the people of Catalonia have the right to self-determination. History because Catalonia is historically an independent nation. Culture and language are consequence of history, but not less important – catalans have banned bullfights, a typical castellan tradition. And economy because Catalonia is the most productive region, they could allocate more resources to Catalonia itself, instead of Spain. Yes, if Spain is against the independence (and it is, compeltly), then Catalonia might suffer a huge economic depression. Who is on the wrong side, now, I ask? Spain, or catalans?

  52. avatar
    Con Rad

    Yes. Spanish government should respect the will of the people

  53. avatar
    Pedro Inacio

    yes it should let the catalans decide. but it should be clear that they will loose EU membership…

  54. avatar
    Gianluca Patrignani

    It’s not matter about authoritarism. Before saying something like this you should take a look at the Spanish Constitution…
    Anyway i Think yes, even if they will never win.
    Barcelona is Spain!
    Madrid needs Barcelona, Barcelona needs Madrid :)

  55. avatar
    Pol Santaló

    What a surprise? In this debate just the spanish people are saying that Catalonia shouldn’t have the right to vote? Someone has to tell them that his narrow-minded vision of their world is not really accurate.

  56. avatar
    Máté Parászka

    keeping a culture, this means special need in politics also, using of their language in schools, in administration, etc. avoid pressure of not tolerant political formations, not to be a second class citizen in the e.u. a lot of countries has this problem with ethnic minorities and in some places they are open for others and in some places they are not very much, and where not, there is always problems because of this.

  57. avatar
    Thomas Reichpietsch

    In these rough times the people of Europe should stand united. Help eachother instead of declaring independence.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Catalonia want to be independent from Spain, but want to be united to Europe.
      Catalonia is already helping EU because it is a net contributor to the Union

  58. avatar
    Froilán Herrero González

    umm..i read gomes and i think that he dont read about history in Pais Vasco. The problen ot catalonia is the law, the constitution you can read that all spanish can vote in the problen of spanish territory.But if you believe in the law.

  59. avatar
    Roobn Arbaizar

    it is not democratic only some citizens deciding if the rest of the citizens will continue having rights in a place they now do or not.

  60. avatar
    Mer JS

    easy to say yes, when you are not SPANISH and do not know what it means …

  61. avatar
    Diogo Quirino

    They should have a say in matters of their own destiny. If they should be independents or not, that’s a whole different question. Let’s the ballots decide. Or are we afraid of democracy?

  62. avatar
    Eduardo Santamaria

    There is a constitution in Spain and everyone shoudl respect it, of course it could be possible to change it and includes the possibility to secede but at the present moment its totally ilegal.

  63. avatar
    Miguel Francisco Baptista

    I live in catalua and I am curious to see what will happen from now on… Madrid just said its illegal… what will be the position of european institutions? Who is going to step up defending a position? Europe needs leadership now, more than ever!

  64. avatar
    Nicolò Morishita Accame

    If Catalonia can become independent from Spain than the Northern League in Italy should become independent from the rest of Italy as well.. It’s the exact same principle for which if Greece for ex. gets out of the euro, all other troubled eu countries would follow and the whole thing would collapse like a domino effect.

  65. avatar
    Lukas Klepacki

    No. We dont need another 200000 Countries in Europe. Autonomy – yes, but why another countries? Kids in school have already nightmares, because they have to learn all european capitals… :P

  66. avatar
    Alerim Ćinjodar

    Catalans should have the right to decide about their status. The only problem is that they will not stay in the EU. The same is with Scotland. So, if they want to join the EU as independent states, they will have to go through all that application process and negotiations, but automatic membership is definitely not an option. Catalans should keep that in mind, as well as the Scots.

  67. avatar
    Gisela Comas I Arqué

    Spanish Goverment is doing what “Constitucion” say but when a huge number of citizens ask for vote and indepence, there are rights and laws than only a national constitution.

  68. avatar
    Carlos Villafranca

    Just a new joke by our neoliberal C.A. president… I am Catalan, born and live in Barcelona and I know that game… :-D Ethnicity or minority? It’s not. xD Language? Catalan is mandatory and all schools are by law teached in Catalan almost 100%, as well as in all administration… That’s OK, and we all live in peace and respect here. But then again our president is hungry for more power and using his position to make an awful speech of hate against the rest of the citizens of our country (Spain), which are far more honest than him.

  69. avatar
    MaVi Gomis

    The case isnt it only that is “illegal” but that the Spanish Constitution in its two first articles explain the unity of the territory and that the vote cannot be possible if you dont ask everybody, not just one part. Apparently, Brussels will be against it, Catalonia will have to leave the EU and apply again, thing that it doesnt benefit Brussels itself. The same case will be with Scotland.lets see what happen, I only hope people with have enought clear information to decide… #lovespain

  70. avatar
    Roobn Arbaizar

    Every referendum is not democratic. Ban same sex rights by referendum is not democratic. Ban religion freedom by referendum is not democratis. Ban the rights of the rest of spanish people in one place they have them is not democratic. It would be an antidemocratic referendum.

  71. avatar
    Daniel Stefanov

    And the symbol of the Catalan issue FC Barcelona will play in the league of …? Should the new state be part of Eu, or use the currency? They should also apply for Schengen but in the meantime should have visa regime for all the Eu countries. This is such a irresistible perspective :)))

  72. avatar
    Roobn Arbaizar

    catalan nationalism, like any nationalism (includins spanish one), is one of the biggest problems europe has to prospere. The th goes in the opposite direction we should go, that is more freedom for the citizens, to move around europe with the same rights, more unity, and less nationalism. nations are old-fashioned.

  73. avatar
    Filipe Chichorro de Carvalho

    Yes, why not? They used to be a sovereign state and they still show having enough cultural differences with spain… To all the spanish people, as we are not spanish to understand this question, please explain us better what this referendum would mean, instead of just saying “you do not know what it means because you ain’t spanish”

  74. avatar
    Carlos Villafranca

    OK. I want the independence of my city, Badalona, from Catalonia and Spain? Why can’t I decide? We are opressed by Barcelona’s terrible power!! If Catalonia was democratic they would let Badalona city people to vote for independence. It’s the same stupid game, reason “money”.

    • avatar
      Victor

      If your Badalona lived in a free Catalonia, you would live much better than you do today, and if you want, you could organize a referéndum to Split appart from it

  75. avatar
    Roobn Arbaizar

    it would mean the rest of spanish people would loose their rights in that region and the residents in that region their rights in the rest of Spain. Not very clever.

  76. avatar
    Máté Parászka

    all over the continent this problem exists, in my country also, here, most of the people wants autonomy, the gov. don’t want to hear about this they not even comunicating, they fear that this minority and the autonomy project would separate the country.Ofcourse this is stupid, but it is a real problem.For me it is realy the same, cause i already decided to go as far as possible from here, i think i move away from the continent so i don’t realy care.Some of the people in my minority they think it is a stupid idea, and some of the people turned angry and nationalist because of this situation.But what i think is, that in every country, the majority has to offer possibilities to “be” for other ethnic groups, and the minority should not act in a nationalist way, and i realy think that this shouldn’t be a question, cause an independent part of a country don’t means nothing bad.In my case, my guys don’t want borders, taxes, and other stuf that would separate the place from the rest of the country only they want to be free and decide free what to do and how to do it, cause it is a totaly different culture as tha majority.Without compromissions of both parts the situation is not very good.

  77. avatar
    Carlos Villafranca

    OK. I want the independence of my city, Badalona, from Catalonia and Spain. Why can’t I decide? We are opressed by Barcelona’s terrible power!! If Catalonia was democratic they would let Badalona city people to vote for independence. It’s the same stupid game, reason “money” and obsession for power.

    • avatar
      Victor

      That is a good question.
      In a free Catalonia, you would be able to vote for the independence of Badalona, because we catalans have a true democratic culture that would reflect on country’s goverment.
      The problem you have is not Barcelona, it is Spanish imperialism who is the one obsessed with “power” and “money”.

  78. avatar
    Eduardo Santamaria

    Filipe, when Catalonia was an independent state? What would happen with the people that vote NO, and with other regions that the Catalonian goverment demands such as Rousillon (France), Valencia, Balearic Islands and some parts of Aragon? They will reach more than 50% of participation to be accepted or not?Which citizens in Catalonia will have the right to vote?There are som many questions that should be studied very carefully to avoid some big problems and mistakes that will hurt and destroy the European Union.

  79. avatar
    Anna Recasens

    As a Catalan myself I can see more reasons than just the “money” as some people here are claiming. We have our own national identity, our language, our traditions, our cultural differences with Spain. And the fact is that the centralist government, calling to constitution written in a really unstable period, won’t let the catalan people claim their right to self-determination.

  80. avatar
    Roobn Arbaizar

    in the XXI century, every family have their own traditions and ways of life. as far is the state respects them, like in spain, everything is fine. pretending that in a territory everyone should speak the same language, or have the same traditions, is coming centuries back. every person is different. they should have garanteed the same rights and live in the way the want. NO NATIONALISM.

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Were there not a strong and powerful Spanish nationalism, I don’t think that the present thrust towards independence would be so strong itself. So, we might agree: no nationalism, but no nationalism anywhere. And anyway I don’t think that the present thrust towards independence in Catalonia has much to do with nationalism. I’m quite sure that most of the Catalans who are for independence would agree that the biggest advantage of being an independent country is that then you can be truly interdependent instead of being the subject of someone.

  81. avatar
    Máté Parászka

    look guys in the case of my place, a lot of people don’t realy wants the union and democracy and all this stuff because of this problem, so what is destroying the union…..i’m not realy sure no more…….as i say i realy don’t care for me is the same, but the nationalist and the growing far right movements who don’t care about the union no more, or peoples rights and stuff, they do care, and this can have a tragic end.They feel that the union don’t care about them, it is paradoxal to hear from a fascist that he is discriminated, but actualy he realy don’t get an answer to his problem, so they are just growing and growing, and this dosn’t realy seams to be that things are good like this.Ok, a fascist will always have problems, but in a place, where in a few years everybody got fascist, and before you couldn’t see no fascist movements (and now i’m not talking about there wasn’t people who was thinking this way) it means something what is not realy cool.

  82. avatar
    Roobn Arbaizar

    i am spanish (half basque half castilian), i live in spain with my scotish (so british and european) boyfriend. we speak english at home, sometimes we use spanish. the thing is that our traditions are ours, and my neighbourg doesnt have to share them. as far as he respects mine, i dont care what he talks with his wife of if they pray one god or another, or none. fortunatelly he has to be treated equally than me here, because he is an european citizen. with different traditions, but with a share citizenship and same rights. thats what it minds. same rights for everybody in the most places possibles. Europe is peace, nationalism is war.

  83. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    It is not the first time Catalonians want and have fight for their independence. All minority regions should have the right to choose their future. The problem with Spain is their imperialistic view from Madrid.

  84. avatar
    Borj Delbai

    Meaning is created through interaction and is thus intersubjective or socially constructed. And if men define situations as real they are real in their consequences. So if the Catalonian people see themselves as a nation this intersubjective fact could be reflected in a referendum if only it were allowed. They certainly have a right to self-determination. I for one stand by the principle of subsidiarity and think that a matter ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest, or least centralised authority capable when the matter is addressed more effectively in that way. But it is also important to keep in mind that some issues are better dealt with on the European level (like a minimum wage, social security, standards of safety at work, the taxation of companies, et cetera to allow for competition with products instead of people). So to answer the question whether Catalonia should be independent or not one has to first answer the question that takes the current European context into account: to what degree?

  85. avatar
    Eduardo Santamaria

    Senhor Tavares , Lisboa has more imperialistic view than Madrid. Catalonia has more autonomy than any other region in Europe including Madeira and Azores. Secession is not a option.

    • avatar
      Antoni Boixadors

      It does not matter who is imperialistic. It does not matter what is the level of autonomy. What matters is the right of nations to decide its future. Catalonia has said “enough”, it does not want crambs anymore, it now wants the whole bread.

  86. avatar
    Darko Dobrić

    As usual, I find most of the analysis wrong and totally inaccurate. This conflict is quite complex and it calls for serious discussion in many respects. In my view, the underlying problem here is nationalism. Nationalism – either in the Spanish or Catalan forms – fancies homogeinity in that it simplifies a heterogenous reality to a monolithic one. As others have pointed out earlier in this post, traditions do not constitute a solid argument in the debate of Catalan independence. Over 15% of Catalonia’s population is of foreign origin which means that this region is certainly heterogenous. The same goes for Spain – with a similar amount of foreign residents overall. In both cases the whole machinery of nationalism favours tradition because it asserts the national “self” (nationals, members of the community) against the “Other” (foreigners, strangers, outsiders) and this is essentially “naZionalistic”. Nationalism also simplifies the notion of “identity”. Being “Spanish” or “Catalan” need not be “totalising” or “exclusionary”. That is to say, one should not exclude the other – or any other. One’s identity is not restricted to one’s place of origin as we might (perhaps we also should!) feel identified with other realities that do not necessarily overlap or cancel each other. I can feel myself more strongly attached to my profession, my family or even the world as a whole rather than to a specific nationality. These are feasibile possibilities in our configuration of “identity”. Above all, we are humans and we should be compelled to have a wider perspective of reality. I think this the main aim of the European Union and that is why we are all contributing to this common project on Facebook. Needless to say, this is too complicated a subject to be tackled in just a few lines. Being a Spaniard myself, I have also lived in Catalonia and I speak fluent Catalan. In the ideal scenario, there would still be hope to bridge the gap between the two positions. I guess it all depends on those who are willing to negotiate. But, again, we should be careful with uninformed opinions since these usually bring along biased and diffuse visions on the social and political reality in the country.

  87. avatar
    Javier Sánchez

    Conceio Reis com certeza podemos nos entender, no questo de ser espanhol ou portugus seno de estar informado, conhecer a realidade do outro pais e ter boa educao e respeito pelos demais.

  88. avatar
    Javier Sánchez

    I think the answer is yes, despite I think they will lose the referendum, and despite I don’t support their views ‘cos I think is wrong to add more borders between European territories. I don’t see them as Spaniards but as Europeans. From my point of view there are not “peoples”, only citizens. What have in common every Spaniards? Or every French or German? I don’t think “culture” or “identity” should be concepts to create States in the 21st Century, but if they think so and they want, they may have the chance to present a referendum.

  89. avatar
    António Carujo

    Sr. Eduardo Santamaria, unlike Spain, Portugal doesn’t have many nations within one, or was it created around the alliances between diferent crowns. Madeira and Aores are autonomous regions because they’re are simply separated by thousands of Kms from the continent. It’s easier, from a geographical and a practical point of view to have autonomous goverments, with very limited power,to run the daily matters. Before comparing two very diferent situations you should know or try to know a bit more. By the way, the vision you have from Lisbon actually made me laugh..

  90. avatar
    André Branco

    Of couse they should be independent. Catalans are a people with a diferent etnicity, own culture, own traditions, a history, own language etc etc like the basques, if the people of catalonia want to be independent, why not?! The United Nations 1514 resolution is very explicite on granting the Independence of all peoples.

  91. avatar
    Sergio Pérez Piquer

    it is very hypocritical to defend selfdetermination and the freedom of people to decide their own future while circumscribing these rights only to people in catalonia, this is, if the Spanish constitution grants sovereignty to the spanish people, why do you want to ask the opinion of a few when it is a topic which affects everyone? If there is a referendum every spaniard should be allowed to vote- They show their true face when they ask only people over which they can exert pressure. The Mas regional government does not give a shit for rights, their only concern is to hold to power, the same with ERC. PD: Non-Spaniards: mind your own business, this is not of your concern. Saying that Catalonia should be allowed to decide because Scotland is allowed is just analogy bullshit which proves your lack of understanding, and even an imperialistic approach to the situation.

  92. avatar
    Sara Connor

    thank god nearly everyone is spanish…… but i would like to know what the europeans know about the problem!! specially those who answer: “yes/no”, like that?! europeanss…….always making rules for others without having the information needed……….

  93. avatar
    André Branco

    Does not make sense all spaniards vote in the catalonia referendum. Self determination referendums matter to the people who want to be independent like the scottish in relation to the UK. IT IS THE CATALONIAN PEOPLE WHO WANTS TO BE INDEPENDENT. THIS IS A DECISION OF THE CATALONIANS.

  94. avatar
    Sergio Pérez Piquer

    First: it is strictly a Spanish matter, both from a legal perspective since constitutional issues are the core of sovereignty and, thus, the EU has no kind of competence, and political, since what is not made up and stirred by demagogues has to do with national identity and it is not for europeans to decide about spanish national identity. Second: it is a decision which affects the whole of Spain, therefore the whole of Spain is entitled to have a saying. Besides there is not such thing as catalan sovereignty, thus the mere existance of a referendum would automatically “create” this catalan sovereignty, what would make irrelevant the result itself since its mere celebration implies recognition….a part from being paradoxical it would mean that the opinion of those who said no would be deliberately ignored.

  95. avatar
    Sergio Pérez Piquer

    PD: Andr, majo, con la que esta cayendo en Portugal no estara de mas que te dedicaras a solucionar los problemas que tenis en casa antes de ir por ah dando lecciones de constitucionalismo que en nada te ataen.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Sergio,
      This is an european forum where people all over the world is invited to discuss about europe’s future…
      Who you think you are to tell André to ‘take care of his own problems’?
      He is free to express his opinion regardless you agree or not… you know, freedom of expresson is at the base of any the democracy…

  96. avatar
    Jonathan Aaron Aureliano MacGiollachomhgaill

    @Sergio, you say that this is only a Spanish issue and not a European one, however, would you not agree that if a referendum were to take place in Catalonia it would have an effect on the make up of the European Union, at least according to the President of the European Commission. Should a referendum take place and people from Catalonia vote for independence this would have an effect on the jurisdiction of many EU institutions. I do think that it is an important argument whether of not all of Spain should have a say in the referendum and the argument you put forward in relation to ‘Catalan sovereignty’ is an interesting, and in my opinion a valid one. I do not agree however that the voice of those who vote no would be ignored.

  97. avatar
    Sergio Pérez Piquer

    Of course it would have effects on the EU, but also on the WTO, on the OECD and even on the UEFA Champions league…but I am not talking about economic or jurisdiction side effects which would presumably be temporal, no, I am talking on a huge constitutional impact, which would lead to the need of remodeling the entire Spanish territorial system, and thus its ground norm. It would mean a new stage in Spanish history, ending with the 1978 period and it would give rise to many more social and cultural issues that I cannot imagine right now….we could also mention the economic impact on south, central or western Spain, but I don’t like maths. If you take into account these effects and you compare them with those on the EU, the later are quite insignificant. That is why I think that if there were a question it should be adressed to all spaniards and not to all EU citizens.

  98. avatar
    Daniel Iulian Mihai

    Present communities seek independence because of a superiority complex and/or extreme nationalism.
    While everything went good economically speaking, they didn’t have a problem in sharing the same country. But now that things are not so bright they are willing to say goodbye to the more poor parts of the country just because is easier.
    So no, I don’t think Catalonia should deserve to separate from the rest of the Spain in the current context of how societies are built. It would be like cutting the social aids to poor people because the rich ones want to have their own aiding system.

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Were there not a strong and powerful Spanish nationalism, I don’t think that the present thrush towards independence would be so strong in Catalonia. So yes, we can agree: no nationalism, but no nationalism anywhere. And anyway, I don’t think that the present thrush towards independence has much to do with nationalism. It’s more a matter of survival. Indeed I’m quite sure that most of the Catalans who are for independence agree that the biggest advantage of being an independent country is that then you can be truly interdependent instead of being the subject of someone.
      Oh, and one more thing: before dividing between poor and rich and putting the blame on people you do not know, you should perhaps look for some information. Do you know that about 30% of the Catalan population is under the official level of poverty (which is already very low)?

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Were there not a strong and powerful Spanish nationalism, I don’t think that the present thrush towards independence would be so strong itself. so yes, we can agree: no nationalism, but no nationalism anywhere. And anyway, the present pro-independence movement in Catalonia has not much to do with nationalism. It’s more a matter of survival. I’m quite sure that most of the Catalans who are for independence agree that the biggest advantage of being an independent state is that then you can be truly interdependent instead of being the subject of someone.
      Oh, and one more thing: before dividing between poor and rich you should gather some information instead of putting the blame on people you don’t know. Do you know that about 30% of the Catalan population is under the official level of poverty (which is already very low)?

  99. avatar
    Darren Grasso

    Stop saying that this is a European matter cos it’s not! This is a national issue which has to be dealt with by Spain alone…quite frankly the EU’s competences are already being stretched more then they should and Im sure there is no legal basis for the EU to interfere in this case and rightly so. I’m tired of this idea that whatever happens in Europe is a european issue that should be decided by the EU. The EU has its competences and it should stop there. Political issues should be decided by the States alone.

    • avatar
      Xavi Romeu

      As a European citizen (yet, and if they not kick me) I would like the EU to guarantee the respect of my civil rights. Besides, all changes regarding sovereignty of member states affect the operation and distribution of power in the European institutions. It is in their interest.

  100. avatar
    Leon J Williams

    The will of the people should be respected. If Catalan wants to be in the EU then it should be fast-tracked following the succession from Spain.

  101. avatar
    antonilb

    The European Union is something more than an administration that dictates the shape and size of cucumbers. It is a changing political entity and will have a say when Scotland or Catalonia declare independence. And if it’s now eager to strengthen the ties with Ukraine, it will clearly play an important role in the resolution of territorial issues inside its boundaries, but only when time is ripe. In the case of Catalonia, that means, November 10th of 2014, the day after the referendum.

  102. avatar
    André Branco

    This is a European issue because it is necessary to discuss if Catalonia stays or not in the EU if leave Spain in the future

    • avatar
      Victor

      I agree with you, Catalonia independence is an European issue.
      The point is that Spanish unionists still think that EU (like Catalonia) is only a cow to milk euros out of it… and has nothing to say about its own future

  103. avatar
    André Branco

    ”Andr, majo, con la que esta cayendo en Portugal no estara de mas que te dedicaras a solucionar los problemas que tenis en casa antes de ir por ah dando lecciones de constitucionalismo que en nada te ataen.” This makes no sense… So only the people from countries who haven’t economic problems can talk about the Independence of Catalonia? If this matter was put here is because it should be discussed and as such, everyone is entitled to give his opinion.

  104. avatar
    André Branco

    ”Andr, majo, con la que esta cayendo en Portugal no estara de mas que te dedicaras a solucionar los problemas que tenis en casa antes de ir por ah dando lecciones de constitucionalismo que en nada te ataen.” This makes no sense… So only the people from countries who haven’t economic problems can talk about the Independence of Catalonia? If this matter was put here is because it should be discussed and as such, everyone is entitled to give his opinion.

  105. avatar
    André Branco

    ”it is a decision which affects the whole of Spain, therefore the whole of Spain is entitled to have a saying” well, decolonization of Portugal for exemple and other countries also concerned to the colonial powers but they were not heard and were pressured to release the colonies precisely because it corresponded to the will of the people who were colonized. Therefore, for very affecting Spain would be, self-determination of a people only concerns this people and their will.

  106. avatar
    André Branco

    ”it is a decision which affects the whole of Spain, therefore the whole of Spain is entitled to have a saying” well, decolonization of Portugal for exemple and other countries also concerned to the colonial powers but they were not heard and were pressured to release the colonies precisely because it corresponded to the will of the people who were colonized. Therefore, for very affecting Spain would be, self-determination of a people only concerns this people and their will.

  107. avatar
    Sergio Pérez Piquer

    “Andre, majo…” is a polite way of saying that you have no idea of what you are saying. If I were not polite I would say that only demagogues or very simple minded people would compare decolonisation with the issue at stake. It is foolish to compare a situation of a territory which was conquered by force and which was exploited for the profit of others with the situation of Catalonia, which has been integrated along with other Spanish territories (sharing spanish culture, language, ethnicity, religion, history) since much before the reconquest of Spain and enjoys both of advantages and disadvantages from this integration (it is not a one direction as in the case of colonies=. And the fact that this page encourages you to give your opinion does not mean that your opinion is legitimate. You can phisically write, and you have the right to do so, but you, and any other non-Spaniard, lacks the legitimation to do so. By the way it is not necessary to discuss if Catalonia stays in the EU, there is nothing to discuss, non-member states have to go through the application process. If Catalonia eventually becomes independant, it will be a non member state. Since I am polite: Andr, majo, que si as, que si as, no des lecciones de constitucionalismo cuando no sabes de lo que estas hablando, dedcate mejor a los problemas de Portugal que seguro que los entiendes mejor.

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Mr. Pérez, your post is a perfect example of your level of intelligence and democracy (unfortunately i have the impression that this is too similar to the standard Spanish response). Banning people from deciding, declaring any other opinion illlegitimate. Nobody can decide, not even the EU has the right to decide on its internal matters, there’s nothing to discuss… Fortunately for democracy, this is not how things are in the real world.

  108. avatar
    André Branco

    Well Mr Sergio i think that you don’t have idea of what you are writting. The most recent referendums for the approval of ”estatutos de autonomia” were directed solely to the citizens of these regions and not directed to the citizens of all Spain which makes sense. So the Independence referedum should be addressed to the Catalan citizens following the logic of the referendums. About the Catalans, it is clear that they share cultural traits with the other Spaniards as well as the Portugueses people with other spaniards and that is not why Portugal should belong to Spain. In addition to Catalonia also has an independent history of Spain, has a different culture and traditions and also a distinct language, the Catalans are effectively a different people and I think there is not much discussion and so I insist on Resolution 1514 of UN in 1960 which states that all people have the right to self-determination.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Good point André!
      I fully agree with you

  109. avatar
    Sergio Pérez Piquer

    ajajajajaj estatutos de autonomia dice XD Estatutos de autonomia have to be passed also by the national parliament, representing all the Spanish territories…..so once again, “Andr, majo….” Second, Spain is a decentralised State in order to recognice and respect all cultural traits, making independance unnecessary to protect these traits. If you could tell me at what stage Catalonia had a different history to the Spanish one I would be thankfull. Regarding the Portugues matter and the whether or not it should merge with Spain thats a different issue. And as to the UN they can fuck them selves up their ars. They have no legitimation to speak about self-determination, they represent the new imperialism and they pervert the meaning of the word “right” by their mere presence in international law. Nevertheless, your golden resolution is applicable to situations were people are subject to alien domination and exploitation, which could be the case of Portugues colonies, but not the case of Catalonia.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Segio,

      When you say that catalans ‘have no legitimation to speak about self-determination’ you show your own willingness of domination over Catalan people. Therefore your own words are the prove that Catalonia is in fact a colony of Spain.

      Let Catalan people vote!

  110. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    NO NO NO NO!!

    1)Spain belongs to all Spaniards, and there’s an original proof. If Barcelona wants to become independent, What will the Catalan government say? It will say the same thing. Barcelona belongs to all Catalans.

    2) Regions in Spain already have great powers, if Catalonia can get a referendum, why can’t Asturias, Basc, Valencia, The Canary Islands etc

    3) I Don’t understand why Catalans feel like they are special from the rest of Spain.

    4) Ethnically, Andalusians and Galicians are the majority in Catalonia. More than 65 % of Catalans have at least one ancestor from those regions. Thus they are even more Spanish than the Basc.

    5) Rajoy for now appears very weak. His Dark side is coming very soon.Beware.

    6) I hope Catalans know what Spain is doing to Gibraltar. I assure you that if there’s an independent Catalonia, Spain might completely close its Borders with Catalania. You guys are not the only crazy ones!
    7)Fc Barcelona in Spanish league after independence? or there’ll be a Catalan league. How interesting it will be (lol)

    8) Since the Catalan government likes to surprise Spain, Know, the tables will turn. I’m waiting to see the face of Artur Mas when Catalonia gets suspended and he’ll be judged in Madrid for treason. So, note that surprises can also come from Madrid.

    For the most important points. The EU will never support an independent Catalonia.
    France has Bretons, Normandy, northern Catalonia, Corsica, Basc,
    there’s also the Flanders of Belgium, Northern Italians, Industrial Germany etc
    So there’ll obviously be a domino effect in the European union.
    And all Catalans should know better. The Eu was created to fight against nationalism. So the EU can not go back now!
    If you think the Eu will help, you’re in for a very long dream!
    on a final note,
    Catalonia will Never Be independent

    • avatar
      Victor

      Jake, long time without reading you grumpy comment!

      1) In democratic countries, Independence referendums are hold in the areas that want to be independent. For example: Scotland or Quebec…. Do you mean than Spain is not a democratic country?

      2) I think it would be healthy for Spanish democracy and political stability to let other regions hold their own referendums if they are willing to do so. (Ex: Basque country).

      3) I am catalan, and I do not know feel special, I just feel different to other peoples from Spain like castillian or basques

      4) Catalanism has cultural, historical and economical roots that are nothing to do with ethnics. Take a look on this proindependence association of catalans with Spanish origins:
      http://www.sumate.cat/p/portada.html

      5) What do you mean with ‘beware’ of Rajo’s ‘Dark Side’ ? Do you want to thread catalans ?

      6) I do not think that Spain would be that stupid to close the borders with Catalonia… It would mainly hurt their own exports, while Catalonia would still have borders with France.

      7) FC Barcelona would probably be welcome in France or Italian league. I do not care.

      8) If Madrid government tries to send Artur Mas to prison would not be a surprise at all. Franco already imprison and executed another Catalan president (Lluis Companys).

      Maybe France would not support Catalan cause at the begining, but with some time the would see that a free Catalonia is good neighbough and comercial partner.
      Finally, take your time to read German Think tank’s ideas below:
      – “If everything indicates that an EU-country is threatened by paralysis, then it makes sense to accept the secession”.
      – “the begining or the end of statehood within the EU does not necessarily mean destabilization, as it can actually create a new balance”.
      – ” Nevertheless, uncontrolled or hostile divorce must be avoided, as it puts European integration in jeopardy”
      http://www.it-intransit.eu/articles/german-views-catalonia

      Do you still want Rajoy to show their ‘dark face’ and jail president Mas and start a ‘hostile divorce’?

      Support Catalan referendum and Let us vote to decide our future!

  111. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Spain is a democratic country. it does not need to prove this to anybody, believe what you want. but Spain is a democratic country in the EU.
    You can’t compare the powers of the regions of Spain to that of any other
    European country. Spain is obviously more democratic than most countries in the world. Don’t drag the case of Scotland or other nationalist regions because it makes no sense regarding the Catalan situation, it can’t be compared!

    – Who cares about your very “little” difference in culture?
    you only mention the differences, why not talk about the obvious similarities, because Catalans have been part of Hispania since forever, how do you explain the fact that Barcelona was the capital of Hispania?
    How come Catalans have been called Spaniards, just like Galicians, Asturians, Basc etc don’t you think that there’s a reason for this?
    How come Catalan culture is more Spanish than the Basc?

    We all know how this will end. Just admit it.
    I must admit that you, Victor are truly proud of been a Catalan nationalist
    (which i don’t understand why)
    Spain is one and always will be.

    -You say Spain will not be stupid to close boarders with Catalonia, i say Catalonia will not be stupid to declare independence and then pretend as if they still have rights to Spain. By the way, Spain is not the one Begging here. Spain Owns Catalonia and that will never change. if you think that the Catalan Government can threaten Spain. Think again. Even if you bomb trains in Madrid like the Basc, nothing will change the mind of Madrid.

    – Why would France or Italy want a Spanish team to play on their national league? You can’t be that naive. French people are proudly French, as the Italians are proudly Italians! why would they want Barcelona to pretend to be French or Italian?
    That’s just Stupid. If you can’t love your home country (Spain) you can not love another, its just logic.

    – The Uk will leave the EU, Spain will be the 3rd Economy, and may be surpass Italy if all its policies goes as plan. France, Germany, Italy and Belgium will never Do anything against Spain. I believe you are smart to figure this out. Why would they not support Spain? Because they love nationalists and separatists too much? or because the love law breakers, traitors and disloyalty, or is it for the separatist in their own countries to follow the same road? You know the obvious answer.

    – Madrid can have Artur mas judged for treason, in the USA it would be worst. Just look at the little drama caused by Snowden and he has so many charges against him, just imagine what will happen to a governor if he is charged for treason.

    Its not the first time a governor thinks his above the Law. You were born in a land called Spain, there’s a constitution, you came and met it, you have no right to change it, all Spaniards have plans for Catalonia, some want to open their business, send their children to school, etc you don’t have the right to destroy their dreams. You are not special! It is Spain’s property!

    – who cares about the views of local Germans about Catalonia. You give Germans too much importance for nothing! Law is Law, do Germans want to hear my opinions about their country? i don’t think so! Is it because they are richer, and you’ll bow to their ideas? How pathetic! Why not show me the views of nationalist Americans and Russians and you’ll see a different view about Catalan traitors?

    Spain belongs to all Spaniards.

  112. avatar
    Victor

    France Info article ‘Les catalans se rapprochent à vitesse TGV’
    on Sunday 15 Dec. 2013

    ‘ (…) Reste une question majeure : que se passera-t-il si, demain, la Catalogne du Sud devient indépendante, comme il en est sérieusement question ? Il est peu probable que leurs cousins de France rejoignent la cause indépendantiste. Mais le catalan deviendra de fait une langue d’Etat _ alors que la France n’a toujours pas ratifié la charte européenne des langues régionales. Et Barcelone sera une capitale à part entière, désormais plus proche grâce à ce nouveau TGV. Tout cela, inévitablement, aura des retombées économiques et culturelles de notre côté de la frontière.’
    http://www.franceinfo.fr/politique/l-actu-des-regions/les-catalans-se-rapprochent-a-vitesse-tgv-1249229-2013-12-15

  113. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    i just want to add that Lluis Companys got what he deserved.
    You can’t F*** with Spain and get away with it.
    He got served!

    • avatar
      Xavier

      THIS REPLY IS TO THE ADMINISTRATORS, not to this J.W. who does not deserve a second of my time. How can you publish a post which says that a person who was handed over by the Gestapo to Franco’s police and shot by the fascists “got what he deserved”!? I thought this was a serious site.

    • avatar
      Victor

      TO THE MODERATOR OF THIS FORUM:
      Mr. JW SUPPORTS FASCIST’S MAGNIDE OF A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF CATALONIA.
      IS THER ANY LIMIT TO THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ON THIS FORUM?

      Lluis Companys was an ERC leader and the 123rd President of the Generalitat de Catalunya. He was extradited by Nazi German authorities to the Spanish government in Madrid and then executed by Fascists at Montjuïc Castle in Barcelona on October 15, 1940. Refusing to wear a blindfold, he was taken before a firing squad of Civil Guards and, as they fired, he cried ‘Per Catalunya!’ (For Catalonia!) .
      The Spanish goverment has never ask forgiveness for this magnicide, BUT Germany did in 01/Oct/2008
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lluis_Companys

    • avatar
      JAKE WINNINGS

      What a touching story. Lol
      It makes no sense to me.

    • avatar
      Xavi R

      Lluís Companys (123rd President of Catalonia), handed over by the Gestapo to the Spanish dictatorship of Franco, is the only democratically elected president in European history to have been executed.

  114. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    So because you have a train line, that’s why you want to be independent?
    You make me laugh. Who cares about the stupid remarks about some French Journalists? I live in the real world. Not in Wonderland.
    Catalan nationalists feel hysteria when independence is mentioned.
    And they rush into the follie, pushed forward by imbeciles
    (Artur Mas and his partners).
    Tell me what next? This is just the edge of the madness.
    Rajoy says no, Artur mas says elections in 2016, but poor him,
    by 2015, Spain would already have a complete grip over Catalonia.
    Mark my words.
    So all this madness would have been in vain.
    Sad attempts, history repeats itself, and what a disgrace to all nationalists.
    I’ll cry for you. Lol.

  115. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Please, Xavier
    If you want to play the emotional card, go cry to your parents
    and then ask for mercy in the church.
    Don’t come here and pretend as if you have feelings. Lol.
    Are you hurt? Do you want to cry?
    Now you want to silence me!

    It is called freedom of speech, and this is a debate!
    You post ideas that I don’t like, do you see me complaining?
    You only want me to post what you think is “right”.
    Well, i’ve got two words for you. Suck it!!

    And what the hell do you mean by “i thought this was a serious site”?
    You’re so rude and you have no clue do you?
    This is not a PG site for babies; ask permission from your parents before going through the posts!
    If you’re immature and can’t support or take arguments from both sides, go watch Disney channel, NOW!

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Yes, it’s about ideas. I didn’t think that in 21st century Europe Nazi ideas and fascism in general would be welcome. I see that in in this website they are. Well, you are right, this is not a place for me.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Tranquil Xavier, traquil.

      Probablement el moderador estarà saturat per l’allau de missatges …
      En l’anterior Debat ‘Should Catalonia be independent?’ el moderador ja va esborrar uns quants missatges d’aquest trist personatge autoanomenat JW…

      Ara bé, ves amb compte, amb les paraules prohibides en aquest forums (Godwin’s Law) ja que lo JW ja va boicotejar i tancar l’anterior forum a base d’insultar..

      Ànims que la nostra llibertat ja és aprop!
      Visca Catalunya Lliure!
      ||*||
      (PD. Si vols pots llegir la meva reacció al missatge que vaig penjar en aquest forum el Juliol 13, 2013)

  116. avatar
    Catalan National Assembly (ANC)

    Via Catalana – “Catalunya should have the right to vote”

    The citizens of Catalonia organitzed in the Catalan National Assembly (ANC) wanted to carry out a historic, damanding, festive, peaceful, inclusive and democratic event. And we wanted to make a human chain linking our country from one end to the other. More than 400 kilometers long, the Catalan Way towards Independence.
    http://vimeo.com/81589738
    http://catalanassembly.org/

    • avatar
      JAKE WINNINGS

      NO NO NO NO

      Spain belongs to all Spaniards. Catalonia didn’t build itself alone.
      Now that you are developed and richer you pretend as if the rest of Spain didn’t make sacrifices.

      Désolé but there’s no way to Catalan Independence. You just have to live with it.
      Thank you.

  117. avatar
    Diplocat

    President Mas (129th president of Catalonia’s generalitat):
    “The country’s good sense has made it possible to come to a consensus and agree on an inclusive, clear question, which enjoys broad support”
    • The head of the Executive announced that the referendum will be held on November 9, 2014 and that it will contain a single question with two sections: “Do you want Catalonia to become a State?” and in case of an affirmative response, “Do you want this State to be independent?”

    http://premsa.gencat.cat/pres_fsvp/AppJava/notapremsavw/detall.do?id=236549

  118. avatar
    Victor

    Palau Musica Catalana sings for catalan independence (26th Dec. 2014)

    On minute 1:40:30 you can hear “el cant de la senyera”, the last song of the 100th Saint Stephen Christmas concert interpreted by the Orfeo Catala.
    While playing this song considered the second anthem of Catalonia, public spontaneously stands up showing catalan independence flags.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bOQaVA22h2A&feature=youtube_gdata&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbOQaVA22h2A%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata

    PS. two “SI” signs at the top of the stage refers to the desired answer to the catalan referendum (yes, I want catalonia to be an state & yes to be independent of Spain)

    • avatar
      Victor

      Oops, It was not in 2014, It was on 26th Dec 2013.
      :-)

  119. avatar
    Victor

    CATALAN PROCESS BECOMES AN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIR (Part 1)
    President Artur Mas explains the process under way to decide the future of Catalonia
    • The President of the Government of Catalonia has written to the leaders of the Member States of the European Union to make them aware of the broad political and popular support in Catalonia for the celebration of a referendum on the country’s future
    • The Catalan Government has also sent a memorandum to the Foreign Ministers of 45 countries, informing them of the date of the referendum and the political arguments supporting its celebration
    Find full Letter & Memorandum on link below:
    http://www.president.cat/pres_gov/president/ca/notespremsa/notapremsa-239550.html

    • avatar
      Victor

      CATALAN PROCESS BECOMES AN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIR (Part 2)
      Spanish Foreign Ministry has sent out a 210-page manual to Spain’s 118 embassies and more than 90 consulates abroad, as well as to Spanish representatives who hold seats in 11 multilateral organizations.
      Interestingly the handbook is kept confidential, but several comments have been filtered Spanish newspaper to EL PAIS. See link below:
      http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/12/30/inenglish/1388430390_954489.html

      Even though this manual has been paid also by Catalan taxpayers, it is full of lies and historical ellipsis. Find some examples below:
      • ‘by virtue of the Constitution and Estatut, the institutions of self-government were returned to Catalonia,’ This is not true because Spanish Constitutional Court eliminated most important parts of the Estatut in 2010.
      • “Independence is not a democratic option”. This is false. Catalan Independence would only happen if the majority of Catalan people decides so in a democratic referendum.
      • ‘Catalonia has never, in its history of democracy, reached a greater degree of self-government in all areas’. This statement is not taking into the account the history of the Catalan Countries before 1714, when Catalonia was an independent country with one of the oldest parliaments in the world ( Corts generals that was formalized in 1283. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Catalonia )

    • avatar
      JAKE WINNINGS

      When was Catalonia an Independent country? Liar!

  120. avatar
    Victor

    CATALAN PROCESS BECOMES AN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIR (Part 2)
    Spanish Foreign Ministry has sent out a 210-page manual to Spain’s 118 embassies and more than 90 consulates abroad, as well as to Spanish representatives who hold seats in 11 multilateral organizations.

    Interestingly, this handbook is kept confidential, but several comments have been published by Spanish newspaper to EL PAIS. See link below:
    http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/12/30/inenglish/1388430390_954489.html

    Even though this manual has been paid also by Catalan taxpayers, it is full of lies and historical ellipsis. Find some examples below:

    • ‘by virtue of the Constitution and Estatut, the institutions of self-government were returned to Catalonia,’ This is not true because Spanish Constitutional Court eliminated most important parts of the Estatut in 2010.

    • “Independence is not a democratic option”. This is false because Catalan Independence would only happen if the majority of Catalan people decides so in a democratic referendum.

    • ‘Catalonia has never, in its history of democracy, reached a greater degree of self-government in all areas’. This statement is not taking into the account the history of the Catalan Countries before 1714, when Catalonia was an independent country with one of the oldest parliaments in the world (Corts Generals was formalized in 1283). Find more information on link below:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Catalonia

  121. avatar
    Victor

    CATALAN PROCESS BECOMES AN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIR (Part 3)
    World Affairs Journal & Politique Etrangère agree on the Catalan situation as one of the keys to the coming year:

    • Politique Étrangère presents a complete dossier regarding Europe’s challenges on Scottish and Catalan Referendum as well as the Belgian elections, with the possible victory of the Flemish separatists.
    http://www.ifri.org/?page=detail-contribution&id=7924

    • The american magazine World Affairs Journal has published the article ‘The Domain of Spain: How Likely Is Catalan Independence?’ http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/domain-spain-how-likely-catalan-independence

  122. avatar
    VilaWeb fan

    Vicent Partal director of Catalan online newspaper VilaWeb wrote following editorial on 01/Jan/2014:


    The World’s Responsibility to Catalonia

    The referendum on independence to be held November 9th is a do or die situation for Catalonia. It will have a tremendous impact on the rest of the Catalan Countries and on what today comprises the Spanish State. Indeed, the Catalan people’s vote, and the circumstances in which it will take place, will be decisive for the whole of Europe and perhaps beyond as well. It is not only our own future that is in play.

    The Catalan people have demonstrated civil, democratic, multicultural, and positive unity that cannot be ignored. The Catalan Way in September is a perfect example. And the Catalan political parties have been able to rise to the challenge, for example with the important agreement made this past December between the two governing parties along with the principal opposition party, and two additional groups that together were able to join forces in order to officially call for the referendum. Catalans from Christian-Democrats to anti-capitalists have come together, a range that I don’t think could have taken place today in any other place on earth. And both the civil society and the political classes want to vote together this 2014 on our independence and we want the world to respect and to recognize whatever democratic decision comes from the people as a whole.

    We consider democracy to be a universal and non-negotiable value. Spain denies us the right to vote with the argument that such a vote is not permitted under its current constitution. In 21st century Europe, that argument simply holds no water. If the Spanish government believes that it can hold on to Catalonia by force against its will in a situation clearly detrimental to its health, it is quite mistaken. In the last few years, Catalonia has tried repeatedly to negotiate with the Spanish State to end the abuse that has undermined and clearly endangered the self-government agreed upon after coming out of Francoism. Madrid has said no to everything and continues to say no to everything as it simultaneously drags the whole of Spanish society decades back into the past. The controversy over the recent criminalization of abortion, the ominous resurgence of fascist and Nazi symbols, and the monstruous legal reform being prepared by the People’s Party to restrict freedom of opinion, freedom of expression, and freedom of demonstration cannot be understated.

    We Catalans want to live in a better democracy and we know that we are capable of constructing one. But above all, we want to live our own freedom. And this is a desire that the rest of the world cannot remain indifferent to without their indifference endangering their very own freedom as well as their democratic integrity. Democracy cannot be limited by laws and less still by laws conditioned by a military regime, as was the case with the Spanish Constitution of 1979. The world has, once again, a responsibility to Catalonia and to its democracy and we invite you now to exercise that responsibility. With the honor that History, with a capital H, always requires.

    director@vilaweb.cat
    http://www.vilaweb.cat/

  123. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    The world owes nothing to Catalonia. Like who do you think you are?
    Spain is one of the world’s most advanced Democracies. There are only a few countries that are more democratic. So, don’t try to play the democracy card.
    Spain is way more democratic than most european countries, and anybody with a little bit of common sense already knows that. Not even the Royal family is above the Law!
    If you believe in democracy, you should start by obeying laws.
    The sovereignty of all Spaniards is not negotiable and never will.
    If you believe in democracy, you should also follow the constitution.
    Bad mouthing Spain, bitching and writing love letters to world leaders only destroys the credibility of Spaniards (catalans included) around the world. (stop bullying Spaniards!)
    Stop forcing catalan language on kids, it only promotes hate, racism, discrimination , division and stress.
    they don’t need a language that has no culture!
    Catalonia will NEVER be independent, get over it.
    If you are a Catalan and you feel different from Spaniards,
    well, too bad! You’ll just have to live with it.

    My predictions are always right when it comes to Catalan politics. Given the way its been going, and the path its taken, and the leaders on drugs, who still believe in a fantasy world, with rainbows and cherry dust, lots of pink etc etc…
    i’ve predicted that by 2015, Spain will have a complete grip over Catalonia in such a way that’s never been seen before. It is so obvious. You’ll just watch and see.
    i think that’s the reason why the Spanish government is still so elegantly calm.
    (as always)
    They’ll just wait, when Catalan nationalists start crawling on their knees .. , as soon as you realize, that Spain is a democracy and laws must be followed.

    When you give Catalan nationalists, room to breathe,
    now, they think they are important in this world. Lol

  124. avatar
    Xavi R

    Let Catalans Vote!

    http://www.letcatalansvote.com/

    Join the people who support Catalonia’s right to vote.

    Today, over 80% of the Catalan population wants to hold a referendum on independence from the Spanish state, but the Madrid government refuses to grant this legitimate democratic right. We Catalans are determined to be a responsible member of the world’s community of nations—we are already net contributors to the EU—and would appreciate international support for holding our referendum. If you believe Catalans should be allowed to vote on their future, please add your voice here!

  125. avatar
    Atlantic Council dixit

    How the Voters of Catalonia May Change Europe.

    American think tank report encourages Europe to develop self-determination policy for Catalonia.
    See link below:
    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/how-the-voters-of-catalonia-may-change-europe

    The Atlantic Council, a Washington DC-based think tank headed by former Utah governor and presidential candidate, Jon Huntsman, Jr, has issued a report warning Europe that it needs to step up to the self-determination debate and prepare a reasoned policy for dealing with countries who seek independence, particularly Catalonia and Scotland.

    The report, titled ‘How the Voters of Catalonia May Change Europe’ written by Dr. Paul R. Williams, a Law Professor at American University and Roushani Mansoor, a Law Fellow with the Public International and Policy Group, declares that ‘it will be Europe, in the end, that decides whether Catalonia will be an independent state’.

    Dismissing Spain’s legal arguments and attempts to block what it ‘considers an unconstitutional vote’, the report notes that ‘international law neither permits nor prohibits the holding of referenda by aspiring states’ and says that Catalonia will seek international recognition in order to legitimize its position.

    The report notes Europe’s checkered past in dealing with previous self-determination questions, including Yugoslavia, Cyprus, and Kosovo, and cautions that without a developed policy, Catalonia’s request for recognition may be ‘dangerous’.

    The authors believe that without a solid policy, European countries may not have a united response, leading to ‘a “state” with the euro as its currency, and 7 million people who could wind up retaining their European Union citizenship, while living outside the European Union’.

  126. avatar
    Victor

    2014: Time for outside actors to help steer the Catalan process?

    Collectiu Emma recent article:

    Catalans have set off on a road that could lead to their nation’s independence from Spain. The reasons they advance for wanting to take that road – historic, cultural, economic, social and political – have been thoroughly explained and are increasingly recognized as valid in many quarters. For some, the decision to seek an alternative to the present political arrangement was made only after all proposals to help reshape the state as a true “nation of nations” had been met with rejection, often with the added grievance of a humiliating treatment. And, lately, with a hardening of the other side’s positions and a drift back toward illiberal policies calling to mind a dictatorial past that Spain was supposed to have overcome. Many feel that failing to act now would mean accepting the subordinate role reserved to Catalonia in the Spanish order, today and in history, and ultimately giving in to Spain’s design of complete assimilation.

    Catalans have now drawn up a plan of their own, and so far they have been giving the world an example of how things should be done. Patiently, taking action only after their proposals had been repeatedly turned down. Inclusively, relying on the strengths of all segments of society and not rejecting anyone on any grounds. Peacefully, coming out in hundreds of thousands into the streets to declare their determination, showing no hostility to others and spurning every form of violence. Democratically, with their elected representatives acting on the people’s wishes rather than dictating an agenda from above, and managing to bring together unlikely partners from the right and the left in a wide coalition. Responsibly, with most political forces – excluding only those that excluded themselves from the beginning – working to reach a deal and drive the process forward. And with an open mind: even now, the Catalan leadership is offering to explore with their Spanish counterparts every option of a negotiated agreement rather than going for a rash unilateral move. If this doesn’t have all the markings of a velvet revolution, what does?

    2014 will be a crucial year for Catalonia. All signs – the balance of political forces in Parliament, the consistent results of every opinion poll and the impressive demonstrations, not to mention the lack of credible alternatives on the unionist side – point to the fact that a tipping point has been reached. A majority of Catalans want a real change, and their representatives have pledged to provide the means for them to determine the direction that this change should take. Their proposal – and the obvious way to dispel all doubts about the Catalans’ intentions ¬– is a referendum on the issue, much like the one that is planned for Scotland in September. No one beyond Spain’s borders is seriously questioning the legitimacy of that course of action. And yet the Spanish establishment – with the government and the opposition united in an unsettling show of intransigence on this point – is hell-bent on preventing it. This is how things stand at the beginning of the new year – in an awkward impasse.

    Up to now, the official line in international circles is that the Catalan situation is Spain’s internal affair. Everyone’s aware, however, that whichever way things play out the consequences won’t stop at the border and that, if allowed to drag on, the present uncertainty will be damaging to all – in Catalonia, in Spain and beyond. If the Spanish side keeps refusing to budge and if every proposal coming from Catalonia continues to be blocked on a technicality or simply ignored, some form of involvement by third parties may be required to break the deadlock. The good offices of external actors could indeed help Spain reach its own tipping point. Much as they resist the idea, the people there no less than the politicians will have to come to terms with the fact that, paraphrasing PM Cameron’s words about Scotland, Catalans can’t be kept in Spain against their will.

    A measure of quiet diplomacy is probably all that is called for at this stage. Foreign actors who have a definite clout over a cash-strapped and politically bruised Spain may want to use that clout to nudge its politicians into doing the sensible thing. There have already been a few public hints to that effect, and probably more than a few private ones as well. But, even this early in the game, a stronger signal would not be out of order. Especially to ensure that there is no foul play – and, one would hope, no violence – on the part of those who feel that their interests may be threatened by the Catalans’ choice. And it should also be clear to all that things have reached a stage where any attempt to sideline the Catalan people – by denying them their right to speak, by strong-arming their leadership or by trying to fix a last-resort deal behind closed doors – won’t help solve the problem but only postpone it and compound it. The only acceptable outcome from a democratic perspective at this point is a vote, and the immediate goal for all should be helping to find a way for Catalans to have their say. And then, if they do indeed decide that they want their own state, it will be everyone’s responsibility to watch over the ensuing process in order to guarantee that it is the people’s freely expressed will that carries

    http://www.collectiuemma.cat/article/1751/2014-time-for-outside-actors-to-help-steer-the-catalan-process?desactiva_mobil=true

  127. avatar
    Victor

    Catalan Academics Press Separatist Drive
    Professors Form ‘Wilson Initiative’ to Promote Independence from Spain


    “Since 1800, 22 former Spanish colonies have become independent,” said Mr. Sala-i-Martin, a Columbia University professor who co-wrote an economics textbook and helped develop the Global Competitiveness Report for this past week’s World Economic Forum in Davos. “None of them regrets it.”

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304632204579336673963940580?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304632204579336673963940580.html

  128. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Not gonna happen.
    Keep on dreaming.
    Then wake up to reality.

  129. avatar
    Victor

    Sala i Martin corners Barroso on Catalan independence at Davos

    The exchange occurred during a private dinner among business leaders, economists, and civil servants

    The economist and Columbia University Professor Xavier Sala i Martin criticized the attitude and position of Jose Manuel Durao Barroso, the president of the European Commission, to his face on the possible independence of Catalonia or Scotland. According to a story in El Mundo, Sala i Martin addressed Barroso in a private dinner on January 23 in the Hotel Intercontinental in Davos, where the World Economic Forum was being held, and which the economist regularly attends.

    El Mundo says that the dinner’s aim was to talk about the EU and there were economists, investors, and business leaders present, in addition to civil servants from the United States and even the Norwegian Minister of Finance, Kristin Halvorsen. After Barroso’s presentation on European competitiveness, Sala i Martin got the microphone and asked, ‘You’ll give European citizenship to the citizens of the Balkans, who became independent after bloody wars, and you will expel those of us who already have European citizenship? Us, who don’t kill for secession, who only raise the question in a peaceful way, through voting?’

    Barroso answered the way he always does when someone asks him about Catalonia’s independence process. ‘The EU is based on treaties, which are applicable only to the member states that have approved and ratified them. A new independent state, precisely due to the fact that it becomes independent, would become a third state with respect to the EU and the treaties would no longer be applicable there.’

    Sala i Martin, according to the article in El Mundo, did not retreat and instead insisted, ‘We have European citizenship and you want to take it from us. You will have to explain your reasoning!’ Barroso did not answer further.

    Sala i Martin recognized on Twitter that there was a ‘dialectical exchange’ with Barroso and announced that he would explain what he ‘actually’ said to Barroso when he got back to his hotel.

    http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticia/4170779/20140202/sala-martin-corners-barroso-catalan-independence-at-davos.html

  130. avatar
    Vilaweb fan

    What could the EU gain from an independent Catalonia?

    Catalonia’s independence could be the first movement in a larger series that ends this ‘rational underdevelopment’ that many regions of Mediterranean states suffer, particularly in Spain.


    ,it’s good to point out the example of the United States of America (made up of fifty states) to see that the claim that ‘an EU is weakened by having too many states’ is little more than a fallacy.

    Conclusion
    Europe has much to gain by accepting an independent Catalonia. The matters addressed here are just a few of the many issues that will have to be evaluated by EU institutions in order to decide what should happen with Catalonia. There are economic ones, but there are also very important political ones.

    Recently, for example, economist Xavier Sala i Martin revealed one important issue very clearly through a verbal exchange with Barroso. Would the EU prefer to recognize independence won with votes or with arms?

    Beyond the Spanish government’s predictable hysteria, the EU institutions and the 28 states of which it is composed should make a rational, cool analysis before deciding what kind of relationshiop an independent Catalonia should have with the EU.

    Aleix Sarri.
    Barcelona, 1985. Degree in Biotechnology and Masters in International Relations. I live in Brussels and work as an advisor to the European Parliament. I read above my possibilities, although I write a fair bit less. I believe that if Catalans had their own business press, we would have become independent a long time ago. @aleixsarri

    This article appeared originally in Cercles Gerrymandering. It is translated and reproduced here with permission.
    http://www.vilaweb.cat/analisi/4172764/what-could-the-eu-gain-from-an-independent-catalonia.html

  131. avatar
    Victor

    I recommend the following article “Let us vote!” by President of Catalonia Artur Mas Originally published in English in The Malta Independent on Sunday February 9th, 2014, the article has also appeared republished in newspapers in Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, and Estonia.
    http://www.ara.cat/politica/article-mas-malta-independent_ARAFIL20140215_0002.pdf

    It is a fundamental principle of European democracy that the great issues of public interest, indeed of the future of the state, can and must be resolved by the wishes of the people.

    The people of Catalonia – one of Europe’s oldest nations- want and deserve the opportunity to decide for themselves whether to become a new state within Europe.

    The majority of Catalonia’s citizens have made clear, in elections and public demonstrations, that they want to vote on their own future. A million and a half men, women and children took to the streets last September, joining hands to symbolise their solidarity and freedom, as the Baltic peoples did in 1989. No true democrat can ignore or deny the power of that popular will.

    As mandated by our voters, the Catalan Government and most opposition parties have together decided to hold a popular vote on self-determination on 9 November 2014. Catalonians will be asked a two-part question: “Do you want Catalonia to be a state? If so, do you want Catalonia to be an independent state?” Nobody has anything to fear from these simple questions, except perhaps those who want to pretend that the wishes of the people should be ignored.

    The relationship between Catalonia and Spain is not what it might be. Our political rights within Spain, enshrined in our Statute of Autonomy agreed with the Spanish Parliament and later endorsed by a referendum in 2006, were unilaterally revoked by a contested Spanish court ruling in July 2010.

    My government, with the support of 65% of the Catalan Parliament, plans a referendum that will be conducted openly, transparently and peacefully. We regret that the Spanish Government’s response so far has been hostile, but we must all stay true to the universal values that lie at the heart of Europe – to quote from the EU Treaty, “the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, freedom and democracy.”The Catalan people’s desire for a vote on our future will not simply go away, even if it is ignored. Any effort to mute or deny the will of the Catalan people will fail.

    We will do what we can to promote a calm and commonsense discussion with EU member states and the European institutions about how a choice by the Catalan people to pursue their own state should be implemented. Uncertainty is disruptive, and does not serve anyone’s interests. We are confident that pragmatic and creative solutions can be found, as long as we start from the premise that the democratically expressed will of the people is paramount.

    Catalonia is a part of Europe, and Catalans are European. Twelve centuries ago, Charlemagne established us as the southern march of his empire. We want to play our full part in a peaceful and prosperous European Union, which we joined three decades ago. We are committed to maintain and implement common EU laws and regulations. We will celebrate and protect the cosmopolitan diversity of both our people and of Europe at large. We will strive to support a common European approach to resolving problems, including the Euro and the health of the European economy. And we will always be good neighbours to those across our borders, including our Spanish friends, ready to assist in time of need.

    There is no doubt that the 9 November referendum on the future of Catalonia, coming as it does on the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, presents many challenges for Catalonia, for Spain and for the European Union. But it cannot be wished away. With calm, with good sense, and with a pragmatic political outlook, the referendum and any subsequent transition is an opportunity for Europe to once again demonstrate to the rest of the world its great qualities and capacities for addressing challenges peacefully, democratically, and in the spirit of freedom that lies at the heart of our continental union.

  132. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Thanks to Ukraine, it has showed to the world that an independent Catalonia will not be accepted by the world. Look what happened in Crimea, there will be no legal recognition of the Referendum by the Western World.

    http://lizoain.tumblr.com/post/78043208367/if-you-think-catalonia-has-a-remedial-right-to-secede

    I know all Catalan nationalists must be crying some where in their caves.
    But go on, don’t hold it.
    May be in the next Centuries?

    So, that being said, I will like the Moderator to declare that
    Catalonia’s future is not in a Federal Europe. It is with Spain.
    (whether they like it or not)

    • avatar
      Victor

      IIt is typical from Spanish nationalists to oversimplify what is happening in Catalonia.
      Find a list of differences between Crimea’s and Catalonia’s referendums:

      – Crimea is calling for an annexation to Russia, thus it would be part of Russia
      – Catalonia is calling for secesion from Spain, thus is would be a new State.

      – Crimea is actually military occupied by russian army.
      – Catalonia is a pacific community and the only army in place is the spanish one that threats with authonomy suspension and military occupation.

      – Crimea’s referendum has not shown massive popular support.
      – Over 1,6 milion Catalans have shown their will for independence in several pacific demostrations.

      – Crimea is not a part of the EU and seems not willing to be part of it.
      – Catalonia is part of the EU and desires to keep being after secession from Spain

      – EU has no direct responsibility on Crimea’s citizens
      – EU has direct reponsibility on the EU citizens rights that live in Catalonia

      According to the above:
      – assimilate Crimea and Catalonia status is not correct.
      – Catalonia’s situation is much closer to Scotland, Greenland or Czek and Slovak
      – Spanish nationalists are systematially comparing Catalonia with countries that become independent through violence and / or not democratic procedures to undermine Catalan process.

      Support democracy and Let Catalans Vote.

    • avatar
      Sostiene Fernando

      Fernando Betancor is an American economist living in Madrid, Spain. He is an active member of Democrats Abroad and an advocate of political and economic liberalism.
      In recent article on his website Common Sense, he said:

      “… Spain’s Foreign Minister at one point in February pronounced the situation in Crimea as akin to that in Catalonia[7]. This was prior to the Russian Duma’s annexation of the break-away province. It was, nonetheless, one of the more imbecilic pronouncements from a government that has strived to exceed itself in banality, corruption and apathy….”
      http://www.fdbetancor.com/2014/04/21/catalonia-and-spain-end-game-scenarios/

  133. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Victor, don’t be shy. Admit that you are wrong.
    Between Catalonia and Crimea, Crimea deserves far more to be independent.
    You can’t and shouldn’t dare to argue about that.

    By the way, like I always said. If Spain starts giving sanctions to members of the Catalan Parliament, targeting their families, Bank accounts and to investigate Full close-up those who sponsor to divide Spain and thus breaking the Law,
    I can assure you that, by 2015, all the Catalan vibes for independence will be over.

    Spain can strike back at any time. That’s why the Madrid government just laughs
    when the Catalan President is making a fool of himself, sending letters for International leaders to help him commit a crime.

    Stop dreaming about being independent in Europe because its Never gonna happen.ALL Western countries will be against it. It is a FACT.

    And by the way, since Catalonia is already part of EU, it will make it way more difficult and impossible for them to accept its Independence.
    So if you consider being already part of EU as a positive sign, you are Dead wrong. It just shows you know very little on how international politics works.
    Crimea can get away with it, since it is not in the EU.

    Let go. Get a Life.

    Long live Espanna.(lol)

    • avatar
      Victor

      New York Times Editorial on MARCH 11, 2014 supports just the opposite argument you do:

      …’secession-minded people in Quebec, Scotland or Catalonia have shown, there are legitimate ways to raise it’

      …’ The occupation of Crimea is illegal under international law, and it is time for Europe to join the United States in threatening the sort of costly sanctions that will leave Mr. Putin no doubt that they will not tolerate violations of Ukrainian territorial integrity…’

      http://nyti.ms/1qugIVr

      And you know, there are only 241 days remaining for Catalan referendum.
      Tic Tac Tic Tac Tic Tac
      http://www.9n2014.cat/

  134. avatar
    Eli

    Today in newspaper:

    “The Spanish Minister for Foreign Affairs, José Manuel García-Margallo, said today that a universal declaration of independence ‘would condemn Catalonia to wandering around in space without international recognition’ and would mean that the country would be excluded from the EU for centuries of centuries’.

    Who’s really talking?
    Spain’s Foreign Affairs Minister or Darth Vader?

    • avatar
      Victor

      Find below a video letter that Catalan teenager students recorded in Spanish for mr. Wert ministry of education of Spain.
      http://youtu.be/OV5uUABRDXs

      Background information, mr Wert declared that his intention with his new education law was to ‘hispanize catalan students’ by reducing the amount of class hours in Catalan

  135. avatar
    Victor

    #SpaceCatalans on Twitter reply to Spanish Foreign Affairs Minister
    LOL

  136. avatar
    Bukowski dixit

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDwIYNXI5IM&sns=em

    if you’re going to try, go all the way.
    otherwise, don’t even start.

    if you’re going to try, go all the way.
    this could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives, jobs and maybe your mind.

    go all the way. it could mean not eating for 3 or 4 days. it could mean freezing on a park bench.
    it could mean jail,
    it could mean derision,
    mockery, isolation.
    isolation is the gift,
    all the others are a test of your endurance, of
    how much you really want to do it.
    and you’ll do it
    despite rejection and the worst odds and it will be better than anything else
    you can imagine.

    if you’re going to try,
    go all the way.
    there is no other feeling like that.
    you will be alone with the gods and the nights will flame with fire.

    do it, do it, do it.
    do it.

    all the way
    all the way.

    you will ride life straight to perfect laughter, its
    the only good fight there is.

    DO IT. Freedom for Catalonia

    • avatar
      JAKE WINNINGS

      What’s this nonsense?
      Lunatic!

  137. avatar
    Gigafoto of the Catalan way

    What is the Gigafoto of the Catalan Way?

    On the 11th of September 2013 at 17:14 the Catalan Way towards Independence was carried out: a demonstration organised by the Catalan National Assembly (ANC) in which approximately two million people held hands to create a 400 kilometre-long human chain that crossed the country from one end to the other to demand independence for Catalunya.

    To document this historical event, 800 photographers and 800 assistants took pictures of the chain in sections of 500 metres. Afterwards, over 200 volunteers contributed to put together the 107,038 images from all sections using the technology created by ViCOROB.

    In this website you can take a look at the results. If you click on the “Map” tab, you will be able to access the Way’s itinerary and choose the section you want to start looking at. You can also click on the “Gigafoto” tab directly and choose a specific section from the drop-down menu.

    http://gigafoto.assemblea.cat/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=136&Itemid=201&tram=1&lang=en

  138. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    More than 90% of Venitians also want independence from Italy. Do you think any European country will support it? Their support for independence is far more stronger than that in Catalonia.

    http://rt.com/news/venice-votes-independence-italy-585/

    While in Catalonia it is evenly split. Nationalist will produce fake polls to “show” that the support for independence is strong. There are only about 2 million “True” Catalans. They are the ones who demonstrate for independence.
    The Catalan case is not only stupid but also a shameful one, shadowed by disgrace

    65% of Catalans are from Southern Spain and Galicia. Since Catalan nationalist are seeing their “land” being flooded by other Spaniards, their only and last hope to Save their “land” is to declare independence from Spain as soon as possible, because every year that passes by, makes the process even more impossible.
    But it is not going to happen!!!!!!
    What will happen to those Andalusians, Extremadurans, Gallegos and people from Murcia?
    Spain can not let its citizens to be robbed by racism in their home land, ESPANA!!
    All European leaders are aware that the ethnic majority in Catalonia are Andalusians by a far Margin!!!! (more than 45%)
    You guys can’t hide it, it is a fact, and everyday, they keep coming to Catalonia with no plans of going back!

    Check out Italian action on Venitian separatist
    http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/25004/2/

    If the Catalan president continues, he will lead to the suspension of the Catalan parliament and there will be division of Catalonia into 2 or 3 parts, Barcelona will be an autonomous region like Madrid, Girona will also be one.
    And there will be nothing that you guys can do about it.
    What can someone in Girona do, if Madrid declares that Barcelona is an Autonomous Region? Nothing. You’ll just have to live with it.

    And, as soon as there is no region in Spain called Catalonia, Spain will officially recognise Valencian ( in the EU) to be a language of Spain, Spoken in most of the Aragon Kingdom. Thus the Name Catalan will soon fade away Hehehehehe :)
    In just a few years later (after Andalusians already make about 70 percent of the population in Barcelona, they will rename Catalan to Valencian in schools)

    Be careful with what you wish for, you just might get it.

    Long Live España (lol)

    • avatar
      Riverfield

      Wow! You should write novels rather than posts. Only, if I may give you advice, you should try and make them a little more verisimilar – although fantasy is a good quality for a novelist.

    • avatar
      JAKE WINNINGS

      and what is so “novelist” in what I wrote?
      You tight @$$ hoe.
      Trust me, you don’t wanna go down that road.
      Pevert.

  139. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    No, it is not normal. That’s what you want to hear right?
    Why don’t you ask real questions like: is it normal for Spaniards to decide what Spain should be?
    If you’ve been watching News lately, you will see the American and all Western governments maintaining that Ukrainians are the ones to decide on what Ukraine is, and that it is not up to the separatist Eastern regions?
    There’s something that all western democracies call the ” The will of the State”
    And the former is backed and guaranteed by the democratic constitution.
    And Spain has a Democratic constitution, it is one of the most Democratic nations on earth.

    • avatar
      Victor

      It is clear that Jake is so proud of the democracy level of his country Spain. I am happy for him, but obviously as a Catalan I can only feel disengaged from a Spain, that insists in forbidding Catalans decide their own future as a nation.

      Yes, Spain is different. Different to real democratic countries like Canada, UK, or Denmark where we Catalans would be allowed to vote in a referendum.

      The same reasons that makes Jake proud to be spaniard, evoke to most of Catalans like me the opposite effect.

      EU should keep a close eye on current degradation of democratic values in Spain, and ensure that human rights of all their citizens are respected.

      Support Democracy and let Catalans Vote!

    • avatar
      JAKE WINNINGS

      If Catalans can vote, why not all the other nationalities of Spain? Why not those of France, Italian Republics, frontier Russian dominated regions of Baltic countries( Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia), Ukraine, Moldova, Industrial Regions of Germany, Texas, Nationalities of India e.t.c

      If that’s what you think Democracy is all about, I’ll have to say Good luck,
      I’m sure you will need it in Life (like a lot).

  140. avatar
    Victor

    Poll finds that 60% of Catalans want independence

    By JACK PITTS (the independent). Friday 21 March 2014
    A recent poll in the semi autonomous region of Catalan has found that over half the population wants to separate entirely from Spain.
    The poll found that 59.7% were in favour of the region becoming a “new state in Europe” – up from 55% in november

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poll-finds-that-60-of-catalans-want-independence-9208329.html

  141. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    I am not a Spaniard, not even close.
    Just because I defend the unity YOUR nation does not make me a Spaniard. Lol.
    I’ve only being a tourist in Spain and I believe I’ve seen everything I needed to see about those Catalan pervs. (trying to destroy one of my favorite countries!!)
    You can not compare Catalonia to the situation of UK and Canada. If you do, it means you are uneducated (obviously). It can be compared to Donetsk, Ukraine.

    And if you feel disengaged from Spain, well, too bad! you’ll just have to live with it FOREVER. There’s absolutely nothing you can do to change that. Move to Andorra if you want to live in a Catalan state.
    But Spain will be Spain. No region has the right to break away. And I believe, that since you are Catalan, you must know what other “Democratic countries” did to their own regional minorities. You don’t need to look far, France is just next to you.

    Spain is so democratic that, a regional President can pervert the cause of the constitution, threaten the state, the Nationhood of all Spaniards,blackmailing the Prime Minister, promoting hate and racism against the motherland e.t.c but still can get away with it. Try this in France and you will be glad to receive only Lifetime in jail sentence.

    And about the poll, why do you guys keep mentioning “New state in Europe”?. You will never be an independent state in Europe! NEVER! It will be over the dead body of Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Poland, Baltic nations, Belgium, Romania etc.
    All western nations will be against it, if it is not recognized by Spain. And it is a FACT, not a wishful thinking.
    Most countries in the EU have their own share of racism pushed forward by nationalists in their home countries.

    So, in your so called referendum, please mention to the Catalans that they will not be part of any international organization, out of the EU, , in short any thing that Spain is already in it ( which means EVERYTHING). Not to mention visa bans, no freedom of movement, financial & credit suspensions,e.t.c
    Even if you declare independence, who is going to recognize your Independence? Can you please give me an example? An independent Catalonia will be like Transnistria in Moldova. If you put all this in your referendum, not up to 10% will want independence.
    And I’ve not even mention sanctions that Spain can put, which will crush Catalonia.
    And about the separatists, I think they already know how long they will stay in prisons further south. ( I prefer the Canaries ( to be put in the same cells as most pervs, rapists and molesters)) They will get a taste of their own medicine, I hope they don’t c*m too soon. I want them to savor every moment.
    Cheers.

    • avatar
      Riverfield

      Uneducated? Maybe, but perhaps you should start by learning that (just a trifle known by every educated person) ‘e’ and ‘t’ in etc. are not sigla but just the Latin word ‘et’, and ‘c’ stands for ‘caetera’, another Latin word, which means that there is just one period at the end of the abbreviation.
      And then you could perhaps learn that the fact that you keep repeating anything, much as you claim it is a fact, will not make it truer.
      And finally, I see that you go on with your fantasy novel: the other day the episode “Catalonia, Catalans and the Catalan language will not exist anymore”, with plenty of details (that the Catalans who were born in Southern Spain and Galicia do not want independence; then the piquant incident of the suspension of the Catalan parliament and the splitting of Catalonia; but where you have been brilliant is in the shrewd passage about the recognition of Valencian as an official language in the EU: that was really smart – a little bit far-fetched, I mean Spain having a language other than Spanish officially recognized in the EU, but that’s what fantasy is about, is it not?).
      Today we have had the episode “All separatists in jail”. That one was too brief, in my view, lacking in detail; the thing about the Canary Islands was not bad, but I’m sure you can do better. I’m starting to be curious about the next episode.

    • avatar
      JAKE WINNINGS

      Trying to teach me Latin? Sorry, I speak American.
      And fyi, I wrote that out so that it will be easy to read quickly…and since you must be some old grandpa, well take all your time to read. (Don’t forget your glasses and your green pills) or … well, go figure.(If you took all your time to write about a stupid typo, It shows you must be patient in life. No offense if you are a grandpa, now i picture flappy skins with laggy man boobs)
      And to be clear, lets start by calling a spade a spade, a fact is a fact. I hope its not too hard to understand. An independent Catalonia will not be recognized, period.

      And about the Valencian language, though you think its impossible for Spain to recognize it, I’ll want to see your face when that happens. I’ll admit that sometimes, Spanish nationalism “may be” in a pact with the devil when it comes to Catalonia, and I don’t know about you, but for me, If Spain gets a chance to destroy the name CATALAN, they will do it without a doubt. I remember, there was some news about Spain wanting to define Valencian as an Iberian Language with deep origins from Spain….blah blah blah …whatevs. Trust me, if a hypothetical Catalonia ceased to exist, you will start seeing the promotion of Valencian. I won’t be surprised If Spain starts calling Northern Catalonia as Northern Valencia. Either way , who cares about that disgusting language? (a bastard , a cross between the most ugly attributes of Occitan and Italian with a pinch of Spanish).
      If you’ve never listen to Catalan, i’ll describe it for you. (Obviously, since i can’t get over the trauma that it caused in my life.Sweet niblets! Hopefully, therapy will end soon enough, fingers crossed!)or, Just picture a rusty old Land Rover in NYC!! Very old fashioned and does not fit in!
      For Spain, it is definitely a no no. Who will take Spain seriously with all that rotten egg language? It is so embarrassing; picture Obama dancing naked for Putin. Imagine how disturbing and shameful It will be to all American Citizens. But this torture is what Spain has to deal with in Catalonia EVERYDAY!!!. I feel her pain. Actually, everybody does.

      And I see you’re squeaky clean on reading only what yo want to read, why not comment fully on the points that I mentioned? You simply can not out smart democracy. Democracy has no angles. Laws are set straight! Spanish laws too.

      Or if you like, reveal your true self to us, a Catalan separatist. You can start by supporting your H*tler wanna be Artur Mas,claiming “democracy is not about who is right, but about who is left.” Left on Catalan soil that is. (Ok, I made that up, but it is the image that all western leaders get of him, and this does not limit to western countries, all Arabs, and China people (Asians) see this too)

      Artur Mas also argued that “you can just c*m to life if you wished for it.” Well, he certainly doesn’t cut back from getting what he needs*. I guess, he just wanna have some fun.Getting a good (blow*) job from Catalans (their ignorance, village attitudes,primitiveness e.t.c ) with the right amount of Castilian pressure, makes it all kinky just the way he likes it).
      Well, my advice to him is: Mum (Mother Spain), will open the door, turn off your computer now, quick!!. You don’t want Mum to see that all what you’ve been doing* is RESTRICTED!!! It has Church confessions written all over it, and you don’t want to pray 50000 hail Mary everyday in jail, under the special conditions you will receive in a cell filled with pervs like you. And also, no butt reconstruction surgery for you. Be careful where you place your @$$.
      You will be missed…… Not!

  142. avatar
    Victor

    Jake, your Catalanophobic comments are based in ignorance.

    As a Catalan I would be more than happy if Spain finally recognizes Valencian as a language, because it is the language of most of my grandparents (who were born in País Valencià) and also my language.
    I will write you a simple statement to try to help your limited understanding:

    Valencian = Catalan = Balearic Islands language

    I also recommend you to read this wiki article written in American (that is in fact a kind of English, you know, like Valencian and Catalan… Do you get it?)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language

    If you are able to understand the statement above, you will realize how embarrassed you should be with your previous comment …,

    Jake, please keep supporting Valencian, because by doing so, you will be supporting my Catalan language and culture.

    PS. Your new episode “Mas in Jail” seems to unveil parts of your personality that are quite interesting… I fully agree with Riverfield ‘I’m starting to be curious about the next episode.’

  143. avatar
    Riverfield

    Oh dear! Jake, are you not tired of throwing insults? You say “why not comment fully on the points that I mentioned?” I would be more than happy to do that… where there any points at all in your writings.
    When you start reasoning – i.e. using arguments rather than simply slandering and stating so-called facts (often in capital letters, which again does not make them truer), then we will be able to start discussing on a common ground. Meanwhile the only way for me to make sense of your posts is interpreting them as blurbs for a fantasy novel, with plenty of imagination.
    Oh, and by the way, please read well before replying. I do believe that the Spanish government is willing to recognize Valencian as a language different from Catalan. That’s not what I said, and above all that’s not what you had said. You talked about Spain officially recognizing Valencian in the EU, and it is really unlikely that Spain wants a language spoken in Spain but other than Spanish officially recognized in the EU. There have been several attempts at that, even the president of the European parliament was for it, but it has always been blocked by Spain. Do you think that the Spanish government will allow Valencian to be officially recognized in the EU only to take revenge on the Catalans? So you think they are so childish? I don’t.

  144. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Why stick to the language recognition?
    Catalonia will never be independent, and i’ll be here to testify in the coming years,
    And I honestly wish all Catalan separatists to live to see what our beloved Spain will do to Catalonia. It will be so touching, filled with emotions and just brilliant.
    Spain does not need a Ukrainian style intervention (Donetsk), She just needs to sit back and watch you come crawling, crying and begging for mercy . Everybody knows that Spaniards are one of the most organised Europeans who don’t do dirty business. (thanks to the Castilian heritage of course).

    And you know what they say:” In Spain, everything should revolve around Castile, it is the Divine Right of Castile”(Obviously). People from the Aragon Kingdom should be suppressed because on their own, they don’t have culture and will not know left from right. She owns the future of anyone born or living in Spain. If you don’t believe me, well , i guess you’ll never know, or maybe ?….

    I see some enthusiast already mentioning Tic tac to independence, well, I won’t hold my breath if I where you. That Tic tac is a time bomb in disguise and we all know what region is going to explode, be suspended, fragmented and Killed forever.I don’t wanna call names, but the name of that region has been a pain in the @$$ for Spain, for a very long time now.
    Finally, at last, Spain will be cleaned, all this will be in the past forever.This is a Golden opportunity for Spain, if you believe other wise, well, who lives in a fantasy world? (btw Valencians are already more Spanish than Galicians, so go figure) (sources: My eyes)

    And about “where there any points at all in your writings?” It shows you did not read my posts.

    1) Who will recognize Catalonia as an independent country? ( and don’t try to call flanders, Venice, Sardina, Corsica, Normandy, Galicia, Basc, Kossovo, Tibet etc) I need a real country.

    2) If you mention all the sanctions against an Independent Catalonia, in the so called referendum, do you think up to 20% will want independence?

    3) Do you honestly think that Spain is some useless country, that can’t defend Her sovereignty?

    4) Since Mas says it must happen, and the obvious response from Spain will be the suspension of Catalonia, what do you think separatists can do? Burn streets in Barcelona? Madrid is so far away that you’ll get tired by your selves. And if you think Western media will help destabilize Spain, well, I can assure you that the way it will reported in Western media will be so passive, and No country will report it for more than 1 minute ever 6 hours. It will just portray haters of Spain because she is in recession. Nothing more. This will make Catalans to start thinking, that may be Spain has some influence in this world? You think!(sources: I know how western media works) And by the way only the BBC might venture to talk about it for some few seconds, none of this crap will be on American CNN, it will give bad ideas to the Mexican majority California and Texas.

    5) If you think any western Nation will try to mediate against Spain, give an example.

    6) And as an excuse, since the Catalan parliament will be suspended if Mas goes on, there’s a strong sign that Spain will want to give provinces like Girona a Financial autonomy like the Basc region ( i saw this on some forum and it looked so detailed, and if local people can even think about such a thing, what do you think the Spanish secret service is offering as advice to Spain?)

    I am waiting for your answers.
    Thanks.

  145. avatar
    Riverfield

    Jake, this time you posted a summary of your previous posts, with a smaller dose of slandering, but still there is no proof or argument to sustain your claims. You wish to believe that no country will recognize an independent Catalonia if a majority of Catalans have voted for independence? Well, it’s your privilege, but how do you know? So far nobody has said so; there has been strong pressure by the Spanish government, and no country has said that they would not recognize an independent Catalonia, they have carefully avoided to give in to Spanish pressure. It would have been easy for them to do so, but they haven’t. Only Barroso said once that an independent Catalonia would be out of the EU – only him, by the way, others’ opinions are different. But then this means that in his opinion the EU would recognize Catalonia as an independent state, for otherwise it would not be out of the EU. So for the moment chances are that Catalonia would be recognized by the EU. And in what concerns America, the US ambassador to Britain told the BBC that they would stay neutral in the case of Scotland for it was up to people in Scotland to decide their future, and then he added “It doesn’t make any difference if Catalonia left Spain. We have to figure out how to work with it.” (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21535425). It does not look like they are very much against this possibility.

    You mention sanctions against an independent Catalonia, but since you don’t tell us what such sanctions would be, it’s impossible to gauge.

    In what concerns burning streets in Barcelona, I think I can reassure you. I’m pretty sure separatists will not do that if the Spanish government “suspends Catalonia” (as you say, whatever that means).
    Then you believe that Western media will take no notice of this affair, or that they will be on the side of Spain rather than Catalonia. How do you know that? You say you know how western media work. Well this is possible, but so far they have given this affair sustained attention, so I don’t see why this should not happen in the future. And generally they have been more receptive to Catalan demands to vote than to Spanish prohibition. So here again chances are that you are not right.

    Well Jake, you can go on writing your novel or repeating your wishful thinking or spreading your propaganda, whatever you are intending to do; but in what concerns the future there are hardly facts (except in your oracular mind, of course). And what signs there are rather sustain the notion that the Western world will not fulfill your expectations. This should not come as a surprise, though, for the western world is generally more democratic than you seem to be (which is not difficult, anyway).

  146. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    This is not a war, but, I know Spain will Win.
    We’ll just have to wait and see.
    I’ll come back here just to say “I told you so”.

    • avatar
      Riverfield

      Might be, but only if Catalans vote against independence – which in my opinion would be a bad decision, for many reasons, amongst which: who wants to live with (under, indeed) those who threaten you with all kinds of sanctions, vetoes and exclusions?

    • avatar
      JAKE WINNINGS

      NO.
      It is not normal.
      You should start by asking, is it normal for Spaniards to vote on what Spain should be? You CAN NOT use democracy to fight democracy. Those countries mentioned have nothing similar with the case of Catalonia. (Canada, Uk, Denmark) Catalonia exists only because of the Spanish constitution. When was Catalonia an independent nation? How dare you compare Catalonia with Scotland?
      You can not vote to kill Spain. Putting all Spaniards into Eternal Shame, the lost of their land, culture and identity. What will Spain be like without Catalonia?
      Spain can’t even let go of the tiny Gibraltar. Imagine Catalonia, with more 65% Southern Spaniards!
      Even the Italian Republics that want independence and who show a very high support for independence ( that of Scotland and Catalonia combined) will never have it. And they deserve it a million times more than Catalonia. Unlike Catalonia, everybody knows that Venice was independent, and it was the birth place of modern Politics.
      Spain is fighting for democracy. She has to deal with too much racism and tribalism. Well, even if you had a chance to vote, if you are a Catalan, you should already know by now, that Southern Spaniards are the majority in Catalonia. So no need to start a Ukrainian style war in Western Europe.
      You should spread peace and not hate.

      If you think unity is not worth fighting for, then why do you want to be part of the European UNION? And who needs haters in European union? France? Italy? Germany? all EU countries? USA?, or you want to side with Syria, Iran, Sudan?

      And to add salt on your ice cream ( like a lot), Ukraine has brought the western leaders to unified stance on National Sovereignty. (All the West, including western slavs like Poland and also the Baltic countries)
      So, if you think it will happen, well, go figure.
      Or in case it wasn’t obvious to you, You will be all ALONE.

  147. avatar
    Victor

    Jake, when you say that ‘Catalonia exists only because of the Spanish constitution’ do you really mean it or it is part of your parallel univers’ stories?.

    How can be possible that Generalitat (Catalan Government) was restablished in 1977 before the Spanish constitution?

    I know that Spain is different to Canada, UK and Denmark … That is why I want my nation Catalonia to leave Spain ASAP.

    If we catalans finally vote yes to independence, I do not think we would be so lonely… But if we were:

    1. It would not be your business, just catalan’s one…why you are so worried for us?
    2. I would say,’mejor solo que mal acompañado’ that means it is better to be alone that being with bad companies.
    3. If EU and Spain would not recognise Catalonia, then most probably CAT would not recognise the proportional part of Spanish debt…. So it would not be that bad right?

    4. Spanish debt would never be paid… and this fact would push net contributors countries like Germany to push the EU for fast reintegration of Catalonia.

  148. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Who lives in a fantasy world now?
    Spain is not the one begging. Lol
    I think you may have been brainwashed by Catalan media, claiming Spain will beg and fully recognize Catalonia because of debts? Ask yourself, are the debts more important than Catalonia to Spain? Catalonia is obviously a trillion times more important.

    1) It is my business, I hate racism and tribalism in Europe. Who doesn’t?.

    2) Its not up to you to decide, it is up to Spain. You can not decide to be alone.

    3) First of, the majority of Catalans don’t want independence. Lol. When Conducting Biased polls, what do you expect? polls suggesting that almost 50% want independence, are all lies and propaganda. Out of 8 million people, barely 2.5 are Catalan. Lol. Go try to win somewhere else. In Venice, 90% want independence, Transnistria, 97%. So what do you think? It is their democratic will right? Lol.

    And in case you haven’t notice, Spain is more than capable of defending her national sovereignty. If you think she’s some stupid poor country like Ukraine, I guarantee that you will be shocked. Why do you think she’s always passive when it comes to Catalan threats? Do you think she is afraid, frightened, hysteric about the loss of Catalonia? Lol. Not even a nano pinch of Spanish land will be lost. Right now, Spain has more important things to do, like trying to claim Gibraltar. Catalans can scream all they want. But the interests of Spain are more important. If you like, call it undemocratic… but who cares, democracies need to protect their national interests….It is not a wrong thing to do…. Those of Spain are far more important.

    4) No recognition, suspension of the Catalan parliament ( plus sanctions to all its members and those preaching hate against Spain, frozen bank accounts, seizure of assets,visa bans, division of Catalonia into 2 or 3 autonomous regions e.t.c) If, you guys have not yet noticed again, you are giving Spain the ultimate chance to finally destroy Catalonia. It will have the perfect pretext ( “defending her territorial sovereignty”) She does not need military to tighten control in all the “most”Catalan provinces. She just needs to hold Barcelona (made up of 60% Spaniards with more than 45% being Andalusians), and all the other Catalan provinces will come back to their senses. Or do you think Girona will declare independence? And if they don’t come back to their senses, that’s when Barcelona province will become an autonomous region like Madrid, and the renegade provinces of Catalonia can go figure out their “own” future.

    Spain will start respecting the Catalans “democratic will” only after there’s no region called Catalonia. But Spain will still be a democracy…Spain might even ask for forgiveness after some decades and everyone will move on…

  149. avatar
    Riverfield

    Jake, I fear you are again a little bit confused about your own ideas and writings. You say you hate racism and tribalism, but in previous posts you repeated many times that the Catalan people who have not been born in Catalonia, even those who have been born there but whose parents came from several Spanish regions will never vote for independence. I this not tribalism? And you have the nerve to deny them the status of true Catalans (post April 3rd)! Why? Simply because they have their familiar roots elsewhere. Is this not racism? The Catalans’ will of independence has nothing to do with blood or family roots or tribes or ethnicity. It is rather the result of the union of the free will of people who know themselves free and have realized that in Spain it is not possible for them to exercise their freedom. You can have a look at the website of some such people, an association by the name Súmate (www.sumate.cat). By the way, it’s written in Spanish because this is the language of these people, who want the independence of their country, Catalonia.
    So please revise your own ideas before declaring against racism and tribalism. A look at the mirror might do you good. And this is an interesting point, for it is a widespread notion among unionists: the fact that Catalans have family or friendship connections with Spain is supposed to ban them from voting for independence. That is clearly an ethnic notion of the nation which, as I said, has nothing to do with Catalan separatists.
    Then, in 2), you say “You can not decide to be alone.” This does not need comment, it commends itself as a very good clue about the kind of relationship between people advocated by you.
    Then in 3) “the majority of Catalans don’t want independence.” We don’t know, but we do know that in all polls between 75 and 82% of the Catalan people want to decide on their own future. In all polls, even those made by unionist media, which can force them down to 75%, but no less.

    All the rest is part of your fantasy novel. When it’s all written we’ll be able to judge, for I see that you have not yet decided what to do with Girona, for instance, whether to make it an autonomous region like Madrid (April 3rd) or to give it a financial autonomy “like the Basque region” (April 14th). Your indecision is clearly seen in your last post, in which the renegade provinces of Catalonia can go figure out their own future. No, no. As the author of the novel you should decide on their future, it’s too easy to leave it to your characters.

  150. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    No matter what you say, think or do, it won’t change reality.
    Its just way too late. And I should say this, in case most Catalan separatists don’t know it yet, if by 2025, Catalonia is not independent, it will become as Spanish as Valencia( or even more). You’ll just have to see it with your eyes. Already in 2014, 70% of Catalans have origins in Spain, and 45% from Andalucia, imagine what it will be like in the next decade.
    Thanks to Franco, and his divine inspiration from God, to refill Catalonia with Spaniards, the Spanish government can now sleep with her eyes closed. I think he deserves all the respect he gets as a Father of modern Spain. What a hero!

    Despite all the hate and racism from primitive Catalan separatists, there were still some few good men like G Franco, who planned the future of a unified Spain. To bring peace and to slowly poison the spirit backwardness still present in some region(s) ( i don’t wanna call names). May peace be up on him!

  151. avatar
    Victor

    Catalan human towers to be built in 7 European capitals for self-determination (ACN April 30, 2014)

    On the 8th of June, thousands of Catalans will simultaneously build the traditional human towers – called castells – in picturesque locations in Berlin, Brussels, Geneva, Lisbon, London, Paris and Barcelona, carrying a banner reading “Catalans want to vote”.
    The castells will be built at the exact same time, at 12 pm, and they will show a banner reading “Catalans want to vote”. (…)

    By this action, Òmnium Cultural uses a distinctive feature of Catalan folk culture and makes a festive, peaceful and positive demonstration, in line with, for instance, the 400 km-long human chain that spanned Catalonia from north to south gathering more than 1.6 million people in last 11th September.

    http://www.helpcatalonia.cat/2014/04/catalan-human-towers-to-be-built-in-7.html

    • avatar
      Victor

      http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/inici/

      A bottom-up movement
      The Catalan social movement working to achieve the fulfilment of the right to self-determination is a broad and inclusive, peaceful movement. Independent of political parties, it is led by civil society through organized groups and individual actions.

  152. avatar
    Europe

    Catalonia is not Spain!!! (really? then it looks jus like it and has the same issues; high unemployment, political corruption (Catalonia tops the Spanish regions according to the UE), very high % of school failure and football is like a religion.) Some people look at themselves in the mirror and what they see doesn’t correspond with reallty, I think there’s a medical term for ir.

  153. avatar
    Eli

    Catalonia is not Spain because:
    – Catalonia respects the different languages and the origin of their new citizens. President Pujol said “es català qui viu i treballa a Catalunya” (Is a catalan who lives and works in Catalonia), nothing else. The respect for the difference is very important for catalan people.
    – The traditions in Catalonia are completely different than castilian ones: Gastronomy, festivities, music, art…
    – Catalonia loves democracy, we have one of the oldest Parliament laws
    – Laws about marriage, inheritance or property are different than Spanish law tradition.
    – Most Catalans are hard workers and highly value well done jobs.
    – Catalan people love Sports in general, there is a huge number of different clubs that supports the sports for our children.

    There are lots of different reasons to be willing to decide the 9th of november. We don’t want be as Spain, it is not our mirror and we don’t want to be ruled by them.

    Visit Catalonia and you will see the difference for your own.

  154. avatar
    Europe

    Hillarious, if you are born in Catalonia you are a hard working person, if born somewhere else you are not, typical argument from a nationalist. People work and very hard where work is to be had. You should buy yourslef a mirror pal and see the reflection, I’m afraid you’re living an illusion.

  155. avatar
    Eli

    Hilarious? You did not understand anything…
    I repeat: a Catalan is not only who was borned in Catalonia, because I was talking about integration in Catalonia during the last Century. You only talked about the place of birth.
    In addition, I was talking about Catalan workers and I did not compared with other ones. Why do you do so? Are you annoyed because I am proud to be Catalan?
    It s a pity that someone wants to distort the sense of my words.

  156. avatar
    Europe

    Sure, European Union 28 – Catalan separatits 0 … and no mates, c’est la vie. For a new member to come in to the club, the 28 member states need to agree upon it unanimously. It’s doesn’t look very promising, good luck and come back tomorrow.

  157. avatar
    Victor

    If Europe is not able to accept Catalonia as a independent state within the Union, why should Catalonia pay a proportion of current Spanish debt?
    In this scenario, Spain should pay alone its debts and Catalonia would be sad but free out of the union.

    Mr Europe should accept that Catalonia and EU needs each other, so why vote against a fast reintegration of a free Catalonia ?
    Do you just want to punish Catalonia at any of your own cost?
    What is the benefit ?
    Who wins in your hypothetical scenario?
    I tell u, no one. Just your Ego.

  158. avatar
    Europe

    Shoulda, woulda, coulda… that’s all good and well, then there’s reality and the big, unequivocal and resounding NO from the European Union to any of its regions to unilaterally becoming a member without the unanimous consent of the 28 member states.

    As far as debt is concerned, you cough up what you owe, it really is that simple.

    • avatar
      Xavi R

      We still don’t know the process, the problems and the solutions. First of all we will vote (somehow). Presumably, according to the results, Catalan, Spanish and European politicians will have to negotiate. Then, we will see the real situation. It is that simple.

    • avatar
      Riverfield

      Yes, it’s that simple. Who owes what? If you answer that question you’ll understand Victor’s reply.
      By the way, I hope you are not deafened by that big resounding NO-

  159. avatar
    Xavi R

    By reading the messages posted by “JAKE WINNINGS”, most people will understand some of the reasons why most Catalans want to vote for a new State … quietly and peacefully.

  160. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    So the West should also recognized an independent Venice? Donetsk?
    Democratic will? lol
    Do you think Spain gives a F***?
    You’re a Catalan, so I’ll assume you know better.

    Artur mas declares independence, then what happens next? (Jail time, visa ban and seizure of assets of * his/ allies) We’ll see how their families live on charity.
    Not to forget the suspension and division of the Catalan autonomy, It will be like a Basc and Navarre situation, all the provinces with raw village nationalism can be united into 1 or 2 and Barcelona becomes autonomous like Madrid. You guys think you are fighting for freedom. o_0

    I hope you saw what happened in the Ukraine. Their “fight for freedom” let to the loss of Crimea. Same thing will happen in Catalonia. It will exist no more. I TRUST Madrid. (Who doesn’t?) It will be the last time that Spain deals with racism in Catalonia. Spain already has enough pain in the @$$, last thing She needs is hate and racism, polluted atmosphere for investments, bad media, lost of tourists etc..

    And to all the Catalan separatists, please answer this question,
    You keep saying a Catalan is someone who lives in Catalonia and wants to be Catalan. So you mean strangers (%70 of Catalans) can come to Catalonia and declare its independence? Does that even makes sense to you guys (wimps)?
    How can you come to Spanish land and then just declare “we want freedom?”
    And call it the will of the people ?
    What about the will of the state?
    Should Mexicans in Texas and California decide on their future?
    Should Venetians decide on their future?(they already have but who gives a f***?)
    Should the West recognize Donetsk against the Ukrainian constitution?
    And what freedom are you talking about? the one for freaks?

    Word of the day, just like in Ukraine, when you start a hate revolution, you will end up in pieces and unlike what you may be thinking (that this will be the end of Spain)
    It will be the exact opposite. Do you honestly think that Spain is some stupid poor worthless country that can’t defend herself? Lol.
    Just look how the ratchet Ukrainian army is able to tackle separatists in the east.
    If it were Spain, in a matter of days, every hater will be taken good care of.
    ( à la Castilian)

    • avatar
      Victor

      Jake,

      You have repeated several times your support to Fascist General Franco as well as his magnicide of Pres. Companys (democratically elected president of Catalonia).
      Therefore your model of society is based on totalitarism, hate, threads and fears.
      The apocalipic theory you exposed does not work anymore in Catalonia.

      We just want to vote and decide by ourselves our collective future as nation.
      Freedom for Catalonia

  161. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    “We just want to vote and decide by ourselves our collective future as nation.
    Freedom for Catalonia”

    And Spaniards don’t have the same rights to decide for the collective future of their country? How is that O.K?
    And what do you mean when you say “by ourselves”. Please don’t be vague.

    The truth is, you simply CAN NOT outsmart DEMOCRACY. You can’t use democracy to fight democracy. It will be hate in disguise. Obviously.

    And stop linking my posts to Pres Companys. A democratically elected president does not make him heavenly right.(Like Artur Mas) I don’t think I was even born we he was killed. So I think that’s all ancient history by now.
    And, I’ve never used the word “faci*t” in my posts. But you keep bringing it up again and again. And you keep trying to conclude and force it on me. Not Kul :(
    Things happen for a reason. Get over it.
    Look on the bright sight, Spain is still one, and always will be.
    Very soon, there will be no tribalism and racism in Spain.

    God save the New King.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Once upon a time, Spain was one with Mexico,… but it is not anymore.
      Once upon a time, Spain was one with Phillipinnes… but now it is now an independent state like Cuba, Argentina, Chile and so many other countries….

      Therefore, I do really not see your point when you say ‘Spain is still one’. One what? Spain is on state and would keep being one state after Catalonia Independence.

      Your lessons about Democracy have no credibility, because you do not know what does it mean. You support G. Franco, ‘and his divine inspiration from God, ‘ (JW on April 28th, 2014) as well as the execution of Lluís Companys (123rd President of Catalonia), handed over by the Gestapo to the Spanish dictatorship of Franco (JW on December 19th, 2013).

      We Catalans want to vote and decide our collective future as nation, the same way Quebec, Greenland or Scotland do.

      Freedom for Catalonia

  162. avatar
    Eli

    Perhaps, the new King will be ruling Catalonia only for few months.
    In my opinión, the new Spanish King will be smarter than the last King and will allow the referendum in Catalonia.

  163. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Don’t try to play dumb, all those countries are on different continents!
    They were called colonies for a reason. Will you call an Amerindian or a south east Asian a Spaniard? Spain is in Europe, if you don’t believe me, Google it. A Mexican is a Mexican, A Fillipino will always be a Fillipino and will Never be called a Spaniard.
    So, Stop with all the stupid analogies.

    Spain is one, despite having many more languages/ nations/ cultures etc.
    Your arguments DON’T stand a chance against mine. Period.
    example = Italian republics where independent, should they become independent once again?
    Catalonia was part of Aragon, when was it independent?
    Because it had a “court”? Lol.
    Even in the Roman times, Tarragona was the Capital of Hispania!!
    Can you argue about that?
    Catalonia has always been the epitome of Hispania.
    Catalonia can never be compared to Scotland, that will be pure disrespect!

    True, Franco filled Catalonia with Spaniards in order to dilute the hatred that already existed there. Can’t you see its benefits today? Hasn’t it brought peace and harmony in Spain ? Could Separatist Catalans form a terrorist group against Spain, when half of their families are Andalusians?

    Only the Basc should be taken care of. I think the role of the New king will be to dilute that region. It will bring complete stability in Spain. Catalan cries do not touch anyone. How will this affect the average European?
    Venetian Referendum took place, do you see it affecting EU?, does it affect you?
    Will it affect the Germans, French ,Spaniards?
    How will this affect even Italians themselves?

    Let Artur Mas, just Dare Open his mouth and declare independence. He already knows what will happen to him. No need to bring back history.

    Nations take care of their internal affairs and it is non of EU’s Business.
    Which country will stand up and tell Spain to grant Basc and Catalonia Independence? And who are they in the first place to give Spain a “moral” lesson?
    Will Italy, Germany and France put sanctions against Spain?
    Or maybe Russia? China? Ukraine?, Poland?, Moldova?, USA?, Japan ?etc
    What can they do about it?.
    Absolutely NOTHING!
    So if you are counting on foreign aid, wake up.

    Very soon, there will be a very great reduction of EU interference in Sovereign state Politics, Euro skeptics are already winning grounds. ( sadly). How is this going to help Catalonia in anyway?The EU already has very little or no say on Nation state’s Politics, imagine what happens when Euro skeptics start controlling everything. So, count out the EU, if you think they will help you and get into Spanish Politics.

    And how will they help you even if they wanted to? Who are they in the first place? Foreign deputies telling Spain what to do in Spain? This can not be accepted even as a joke. Just to show the extremes, Can the EU stop Ukrainian’s military action in the Eastern part of their country?

    And one more thing, Spaniards also want to vote and decide their collective future as nation, the same way France, Italy, Germany, Lithuania, Estonia, Moldova, Ukraine,Poland, Romania,China, Russia, USA, Nigeria etc.
    You keep evading this question again and again. Should Spaniards decide on the future of their country?
    Separatist don’t have an answer to this, because they are not DEMOCRATIC.
    They are simply RACISTS and HATERS.
    Prove me wrong by attempting to answer (if you can).

    Freedom to Spain and NO to Racism/Tribalism.

    I am Jake Winnings, and I approve this message.

  164. avatar
    Victor

    One person that did not let ‘Spaniards vote and decide their collective future as nation’ for 35 years was you ‘hero’ General Franco.
    I am personally happy to see Spaniards vote on anything as long as it is not related to my country Catalonia.

    I share below a nice video form RT (Russia Today) TV about current situation in Catalonia & 4 good reasons to vote for Independence
    (published on 02/6/2014 )

    http://youtu.be/zLQtm1xGBW0

    ‘The European parliamentary election has highlighted a widening gap between Madrid and Catalonia. More than 55% of Catalans voted for parties calling for a referendum on independence from Spain. RT’s Egor Piskunov investigates the growing mood of separatism in the region.’

  165. avatar
    Victor

    One person who did not let ‘Spaniards vote and decide their collective future as nation’ for over 35 years was your ‘hero’ General Franco.
    I am personally happy if Spaniards, French or whoever decide to vote about anything as long as it is not to decide about my country Catalonia.

    I would like to share with this forum an interesting video from RT (Russia Today) global news network (published on 2/6/2014)

    http://youtu.be/zLQtm1xGBW0
    On minute 3:00 you can see ‘Four Good Reasons for Catalonia Independence
    – Production Power House
    – No more Tax discrimination
    – Effective Management
    – Cultural Differences’

    Freedom for Catalonia

  166. avatar
    Victor

    One person who did not let ‘Spaniards vote and decide their collective future as nation’ for over 35 years was your ‘hero’ General Franco.
    I am personally happy if Spaniards, French or whoever decide to vote about anything as long as it is not about my country Catalonia.

    I would like to share with this forum an interesting video from RT (Russia Today) global news network (published on 2/6/2014)

    http://youtu.be/zLQtm1xGBW0
    On minute 3:00 you can see ‘Four Good Reasons for Catalonia Independence
    – Production Power House
    – No more Tax discrimination
    – Effective Management
    – Cultural Differences’

    Freedom for Catalonia

  167. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    You see, You contradict your self.
    “I am personally happy if Spaniards, French or whoever decide to vote about anything as long as it is not about my country Catalonia”

    Spaniards too, are happy if Catalans want to vote on anything, but not about Dividing their country, SPAIN. Ukrainians too are happy if people in Donetsk want to vote on anything ,but not about diving their country.
    And what country are you even talking about, It is a region. Don’t get it twisted.
    Even the Scots, don’t say that.Geez, Show some respect for the word.

    And fyi, the support for independence in Donetsk is more than 90%, Venice more than 85%, Transnistria 97%, on the other hand, in Catalonia it will be barely 50%. (I don’t even trust the so called “polls”, the true support will be less than 35%)

    Ok, lets assume Independence vote won by 55%, will you guys declare independence? You want to start bloody war with the remaining 45%? Which country will ever support such nonsense? Russia?

    And lets recap, the moment Artur mas declares independence, He will have no right to leave the country, Him and his allies.Obviously.(Arrested immediately)
    Who will give them a right to enter different European countries or offices in EU? How will that be possible?
    Spain immediately sends communiques to all her allies against all Separatist members. (of cause, it will be important to suppress it in the western media and to project the Catalan process a Racist and Hate crime not any different from that in Donetsk, thus to show the truth to the world. and making a guided documentary on the truth behind the “scences” .For example when reporting, images will be played of Catalans burning Spanish flags and holding racist posters as we see all the time during anti Spain Rallies in Catalonia. All this will be approved within minutes)
    (If you don’t know how this process work, you can see what the Gov’t in Ukraine did against the so called President of Donetsk)

    How will Artur, even try to promote your new country without leaving Barcelona?
    You think the French, Italian , German and American leaders will gladly welcome Artur mas, as the President of Catalonia, Without the consent of Spain?
    Your leaders will not be able to even circulate in Barcelona freely.

    And What do you mean by Power house without Spain and the EU?
    If you got independence, and Spain wants to crumble you guys within months, it WILL. And don’t try to play the ; “oh, train line to France is in Catalonia”. “oh, we will not pay Spanish debt”,
    “Spain will accept us in the EU in order to pay her debts”. Lol

    Really?, I thought you guys where the “smartest ones” in Southern Europe. Lol.
    No need for me to explain everything, you should know it.
    Unemployment rate will exceed 60% and not to talk about the drop of quality of life by 30% within just the first few months. And also, credit ratings and trust = -FF. lol.
    And you can also Kiss goodbye to the lucrative tourism in Catalonia with all the polluted atmosphere of war and hate, just like it happened in Crimea. Within a year, a New Moldova is Born in Western Europe . Am I lying?

    – Madrid pays more taxes, you don’t hear them complaining about it all the time.
    – Effective management? Like Spending millions in promoting hate campaign against Spain, your families in southern Spain and everything Spanish?

    -Cultural differences? Really, The majority of Catalans are Andalusians, are you going to argue about that? True Catalans (not mixed)make barely 10% of Catalan population, to cut it short, at least 85% of Catalans have origins in the rest of Spain, No one can argue about that. There are also different languages in Spain, Not only Catalan. There are also different languages in France, Swiss, India etc.
    You don’t see them promoting racism.
    Or do you?

    And who in the West, gives a F*** about Russian Media? Like Really?
    So you guys count on Russian Support?

    The Truth will always WIN.

  168. avatar
    Eli

    Reuters about Catalonia, Artur Mas and Desmond Tutu:
    “Catalan President Artur Mas said on Wednesday his people have the right to decide on breaking away from Spain and he is forging ahead with plans for a Nov. 9 vote on independence that the central government vows to block on constitutional grounds”

    “Visitors to Catalonia are often stunned at the depth of separatist emotions and the ubiquitous presence of the pro-independence flag – a white star in a blue triangle against the red and yellow stripes of the official Catalan flag”

    “I was actually shocked to discover the intensity of feeling,” Nobel Peace Prize laureate Desmond Tutu told Reuters on Tuesday before receiving a Catalan reward for global ”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/04/uk-spain-catalonia-idUKKBN0EF1S420140604

  169. avatar
    Europe

    The European Elections were a golden opportunity to send a very clear message from Catalonia to Europe and World about -as the message above states – “the depth of separatist emotions”. The cruel reality is that OVER 50% decided not to even bother to vote (participation was higher in Madrid!!!), and of those who voted over half of them voted for parties clearly opposed to secession. (One only have to Google the results).

    Separatists are a highly motivated bunch of people, same as….. I’d better not write down any examples in History of highly motivated people, I’m afraid they don’t have a good reputation……but to able to break a Guinness World record on the street about being very laud doesn’t make your arguments acceptable, especially if your ticket into town has been paid for with public money.

    “Spain is stealing from us” , what an embarrassing slogan!!!!

    • avatar
      Victor

      @Mr. Europe.
      What is a embarrassing is realizing that your arguments are based in wrong infomation. Read a little bit more and you will find different analysis based on actual data:

      ‘Financial Times analysis of the European elections in Catalonia states the widening gulf between Catalonia and the rest of the nation was highlighted by the starkly diverging outcomes in Sunday’s European Parliament election:
      after a campaign dominated by the issue of independence, more than 55 per cent of Catalan voters backed parties that support a referendum on the region’s future status. Most do not even stand in other parts of the country.

      In contrast, Spain’s ruling Popular Party and the opposition Socialists – still by far the largest formations in the country – suffered heavy losses and found themselves pushed further to the margins of Catalan politics. “What you see in Catalonia is the emergence of a distinct Catalan party system,” says Charles Powell, director of the Real Instituto Elcano think-tank in Madrid.

      http://collectiuemma.cat/1850

      In addition, no ‘ticket into town’ has ever been paid with public money. People selforganized and paid their own tickets to all Catalan proindependence demonstrations. Catalonia is not Spain also in this aspect…

      A recent great example of the above is the Crowdfounding campaign ‘Catalans Want To Vote. Human Towers for Democracy ‘ that Raised €130,505 to support Catalan referendum. Find link below:
      http://www.verkami.com/projects/8431-catalans-want-to-vote-human-towers-for-democracy

      About your ’embarrasing slogan’, you can call the way you want. You might use more diplomatic expressions like ‘Tax discrimination’ or ‘Fiscal deficit’, but you will get the same effect: Catalonia is forced to oversubsidize Spain in above 9% GNP that worths 16000 milion€ / Year.

      Freedom for Catalonia.

  170. avatar
    Europe

    Local, regional, national, european elections and it’s said by the text above that Catalans are not allowed to vote, no lies please. Over 90% of Catalans aproved the Spanish Constitution , this is the law and the law must be abide…. or changed.

    C’est la vie.

  171. avatar
    Victor

    Spain and its laws just do not want to be changed, that is why Spanish TC overeacted to Catalan autonomic statue by removing most of its articles, regardless they were already approved by Catalan people in a referéndum as well as Spanish and Catalan parliaments.
    I might be not allowed to vote by the Spanish goverment, but I do not care. Spanish laws, Spanish King, Spanish Constitution are not Catalan anymore. Keep them if you want, or change them if you feel like, I do not care.
    We Catalans will just walk our own way, using our own laws to look for a better future for our country.

    Freedom for Catalonia

    Freedom for Cata

  172. avatar
    Europe

    Freedom for Catalonia? from here one can perfectly see the refugee camps, the chains, the handcuffs and the iron collars. Don’t be ridiculous, stop insulting people who really are enslaved and oppressed in the World today, get real.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Catalan are prisoners in Spain:
      – when Catalans vote its own constitution, it is crushed by Spanish TC
      – more than 80% of Catalans want to vote in a independence referendum, but Spanish
      government just say that people’s will is illegal.

      For a democrat, these chains are as heavy as yours.
      The only way out is our independence.
      Freedom for Catalonia

  173. avatar
    Europe

    Two of the seven drafters of the Spanish Constitution were Catalans; a socialist Jordi Sole Tura and and a nationalist, Miquel Roca i Junyent. The Spanish Constitution was approved in Catalonia with over 90% of the yes vote. This is reality, this is the truth, this is not the Lord of the Rings, stop spreading lies. It really is pathetic.

    I also DON’T want YOU to be Spanish, I want YOU out of the European Union, but I have to PUT UP WITH YOU, who’s more enslaved here?

    • avatar
      Victor

      Well, this is the begining if an agreement then. I do not want to be Spanish either … , but unfortunately you leave in a not democratic country, where your and my will is considered ‘illegal’. You are slaved but you accept it… it is you choice … I choose freedom for Catalonia

  174. avatar
    Europe

    Oh, in an illegal non binding referendum one could vote to rain on Thursdays, that’s not democracy, that’s a pantomime!!!

    Spain is stealling from us – Even Obama and the Pope have come out to criticize this retrograde statement, bloody ridiculous people!

    • avatar
      CatalanAssemly fan

      ANC plans shout-out to Obama and international leaders.

      The group announced events for internationalizing the Catalan independence process
      The Catalan National Assembly (Assemblea Nacional Catalana, ANC) presented the campaign it has planned for the next two months in the run up to Catalonia’s National Day on September 11th. The events will take place during the months of July, August, and the first week of September all over the Catalan territory, as well as in some other cities of the world, thanks to collaboration with the ANC’s local and foreign chapters.
      Like last year’s practice sessions in preparation of the Catalan Way, this year “V marches”—in which large groups of people form the letter V, for Votar (Vote), for Via (Way), Voluntat (Will), and for Victòria (Victory)—will be organized all over the country in order to make people familiar with the huge V Day demonstration planned for September 11th. The ANC aims to internationalize the sovereignty process and mobilize the land as they head into the campaign for the November 9th referendum on independence. “2014 is a decisive year in our path towards independence. For that reason, this year, the most important date is not September 11th, but rather November 9th: the day that we will vote and decide our future,” said ANC president Carme Forcadell.

      Núria Vinyals, member of the ANC’s Governing Board, explained that beginning Friday, the Assembly will organize large regional events each weekend in which a large mural will be displayed. Each event will feature a shout out to a key political leader with respect to international recognition of the Catalan cause. The events will serve to drum up world coverage and explain that Catalans will vote on November 9th. The first mural will be directed to the President of the United States, Barack Obama, and will be unfurled in Badalona.

      http://catalanassembly.org/2014/07/11/anc-plans-shout-out-to-obama-and-other-international-leaders/

  175. avatar
    Victor

    I can understand your frustration linked to your lack of arguments, but insulting Catalans as ‘bloody ridiculous people’ does not mean you are right. It means that you do not respect different opinions that is the base of democracy.
    Freedom for Catalonia

  176. avatar
    Eli

    If some people think that Catalans are “bloody ridiculous people”, I wonder why this people write about Catalans and Catalonia in this forum every day…
    Some people is so strange…

  177. avatar
    Europe

    Sweetheart, you should be able to differentiate by now between Catalans and Catalan nationalists and their arguments, stop playing the victim, is pathetic, YOUR arguments are bloody ridiculous, don’t hide amid the herd.

    Bye bye Spain, Hello Europe!!!……… hilarious, marching in a festive mood they were expecting a red carpet all the way into the European Union and to their dismay the door was shut, c’est la vie.

    Spain is stealing from us, not a very European thing to say. Come back tomorrow… or never.

    • avatar
      Sumate a Cataluña

      Como dice el refranero español ‘mejor solo que mal acompañado’
      (It is better to be alone that being with bad companion)
      Viva la libertad, viva la democracia y viva Cataluña independiente!
      http://www.sumate.cat/search/label/video

  178. avatar
    Europe

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2l9rGO7eu4 —— Apologies beforehand if the reader doesn’t understand Spanish or Catalan (two very very very similar languages by the way), this is a Catalan separatist explaining the History of Catalonia… and this real, not a parody, gringeworthy.

  179. avatar
    Europe

    This a copy and paste from someone who lived there, very funny… and true.

    Having lived in Catalonia for a year and been bored shitless by the Catatans’ excruciating litany of victimisation at the hands of Madrid (and BTW the rest of the world REALLY doesn’t give a monkey’s), I can guarantee that if this region does one day acquire autonomy as a nation it will just be a matter of minutes before different parts of the newly proclaimed Republic of Cat (Tarragona, Lerida, Gerona) start moaning about tyrannical Barcelona and habouring their own separatist aspirations. Eventually each village will have to draft its own separate constitution. Not even the incessantly whinging Catalans can stand each other.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Thank your for being so worried for our future and to pretend that Spain is saving Catalans from themselves. Catalonia’s citizens are grown up adults that have same rights and education levels as other independent countries within EU.
      Thus your paternalism is in fact hiding your imperialism.
      Freedom for Catalonia

  180. avatar
    Europe

    Democracy cannot be exercised outside the legal framework. In Spain there is a Constitution voted by the people and this is the law. Catalan nationalists don’t want a legally binding referendum, what they are demanding is an illegal consultation with two dubious questions so the result can be used as black-mail to gain more money. This is not democracy, this is a pantomime. No body prevents you from organizing a consultation paid for from your own pocket, good luck and put your money where your mouth is.

    • avatar
      Victor

      The referendum will be legal following catalan laws.
      International observers from all around the world will be present to validate it.
      Catalan government will pay all the expenses as well as keeping up with the yearly 16000 mEur of fiscal deficit to Spain.
      Catalonia will be independent if Catalans want to be independent, this is democracy. Got it?
      PS. I would prefer to put my money in my harbours, airports and infrastructures instead of my mouth where is just as useless as putting my money in Spanish pocket.
      ||*||

  181. avatar
    Eli

    If someone have lived only for one year in a country is very difficult to have a complete understanding of the reality of that country. And even more if you are full of prejudices about that country and their people…

    Who’s always complaining aboaut Catalonia in this forum?

    Europe, you said “I can guarantee that if this region does one day acquire autonomy as a nation it will just be a matter of minutes before different parts of the newly proclaimed Republic of Cat (Tarragona, Lerida, Gerona) start moaning about tyrannical Barcelona (…)”.

    Is your opinion, but I can say that your asseveration reflects umbrage and ignorance about the reality of Catalonia and catalan people because integration, democracy and freedom are essential pillars in Catalonia.

  182. avatar
    Eli

    Europe, your asseverations about Catalonia are full of umbrage and prejudices.
    Did you really lived for one year in Catalonia or in Mars?

  183. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    There’s only one word to describe the “Catalan way”.
    Lame.

  184. avatar
    Victor

    ‘Catalan leader pushes on for independence’
    CNN international.(20/06/2014).
    On the day Spain inaugurated a new king, Christiane Amanpour speaks with Artur Mas, president of Catalonia.
    http://youtu.be/9ad9xckcYZs

  185. avatar
    Victor

    Catalan leader pushes on for independence
    CNNInternational.
    20/06/2014.
    On the day Spain inaugurated a new king, Christiane Amanpour speaks with Artur Mas, president of Catalonia.
    http://youtu.be/9ad9xckcYZs

  186. avatar
    Victor

    Germà Bel, professor of Economics at Barcelona University (UB) & infrastructures expert declares:

    ‘The question will not be if Spain tolerates 9-N referendum, but what they do to try to avoid it’

  187. avatar
    Free Cat

    On sept the 11th 2014, Catalans will fill the main avenues of Barcelona (diagonal &gran via) creating a V to show the world our determination to:
    – Vote,
    – Voluntat (willingness )
    – Victory
    http://t.co/lQJljrAjBi
    Freedom for catalonia. ll*ll

  188. avatar
    Clive Clifton

    I was born in the Falkland Islands in 1942 and csme to the UK when I was 7.
    I believe where a country is independant in most if not all its ways and is not financially dependant in the every day stuff, it should be allowed to be self ruling snd independent from outside influence. If in the future it struggles financially it should be allowed like to ask for help on whstever terms the lender stipulates.
    lets give them the opportunity to prove those opposed to independance that they are wrong.
    Come on world lets encourage independence without trying to influence theie failure by isolating them from trading with others. Clive

  189. avatar
    Eli

    The next September 11 will be an historical National Day in Catalonia.
    You will see an enormeous demonstration in the main streets of Barcelona to make a giant mosaic with the colours of the Catalan flag between the Gran Via and Diagonal avenues.

  190. avatar
    Victor

    – Europe’s biggest rally ever? Up to 2 million Catalans march for Independence. RT News. http://rt.com/news/186964-catalonia-vote-independence-spain/

    – ‘Independencia!’: Protesters demand Catalonia vote
    Kim Hjelmgaard and Katharine Lackey, USA TODAY.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/11/catalonia-independence-referendum-protests/15436277/

    – ‘V’ goes viral in Catalonia to demand independence vote.Al jazeera. http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201409111954-0024146

  191. avatar
    Carles

    If Europe is so generous, why is it that we ,the catalans , are the ones who have to sacrifice our social benefits, health benefits… to maintain other peninsular regions to a situation of better services than we enjoy in catalonia.Why are we paying taxes? Not for paying services we receive, but just to pay services somewhere else.that has driven Catalonia to 30 years of constant indebting.
    anyway I only want to practice democracy if it’s possible in spain, we’ll see. But it looks like nobody cares about freedom and popular demands and everybody in europe tries to pass the costs to others . Thats cinism.

  192. avatar
    Peter Miles

    Barcelona and the other clubs in Catalunya can not compete in the Spanish football league league, if Catalunya becomes independant, according to Spanish Football League president Javier Tebas. For the majority of football loving Catalans this will be the end of their world.
    Independence wont make ordinary people any richer either. Any tax money that now goes to Madrid will be needed to pay for the trappings of a nation state. But independence will enable the ruling class to line their pockets with impunity.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Peter,

      First of all, you are assuming that Catalan football fans prefer their team playing in Spanish league than freedom for their country.

      As a Catalan I feel a little bit embarrassed for your consideration to a nation that had been fighting to preserve its culture for over 300 years….

      Anyway, if we assume that your hypothesis were right, you should
      Take into the account that major Natonal leagues in EU are declining due to champions league. Thus your argument is be less and less important for Catalan football fans everyday… Sorry for that.

      Support Catalan referendum and let democracy a chance.

  193. avatar
    Eli

    Dear Peter,
    That is another simple argument to scare. No problem! Catalan football clubs could play on French League, as Monaco Football Club plays or we can create the Catalan football League, why not?
    Your argument is not enought for us to forget the independence…
    About your second argument: Catalan people desire freedom, not only more ney. We want freedom to create a new political organization to avoid corruption, the degradation of wellfare state and guarantee the respect of Catalan language, sharing the oficial condition with Spanish language.

  194. avatar
    Victor

    The Catalan Vote: Why It’s Time To Start Getting Worried About Complacency In Madrid (By Edward Hugh September 11, 2014)

    When Barack Obama told a CNBC interviewer last autumn that Wall Street ought to be “genuinely worried about what is going on in Washington” in reference to the US government shutdown he raised more than a few eyebrows. Normally political leaders try to calm and reassure markets, so this attempt to stir them up on the part of the US President was, in its way, something of a first. Last May the Financial Times issued a similar warning in an editorial with a clear message: right now you should be more worried than you are about what is happening in Madrid
    http://www.collectiuemma.cat/article/1902/the-catalan-vote-why-its-time-to-start-getting-worried-about-complacency-in-madrid-edward-

  195. avatar
    David

    Football, economy, inside or outside the EU, there are many consequences that can not be concretized yet.

    What it is decided by many Catalans is that, at this historical moment, it is not a matter of thinking about how we will be 2015 or 2016.

    It’s like we want to be by 2025.

    And many want to be an independent state. We want to let us know if the majority of the people of Catalonia votes Yes or votes No to independence.

  196. avatar
    Ara és L'Hora

    The Cor Jove of the Orfeó Català performs, over the ruins in El Born Centre Cultural, the Catalan adaptation of “Saule, Pērkons, Daugava”. This work was written by the Latvian Martins Brauns and became the anthem of the 1989 Baltic Way. The Catalan version features an adaptation of the poem “Meditació última” (“Final Meditation”) by Miquel Martí i Pol. Lyrics adaptet by Jaume Ayats.
    http://youtu.be/QzLZCQmoUhY

  197. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Tik Tok Tik Tok…
    waiting for the suspension and division of Catalonia into 4 provinces. :)
    God always answer our prayers. Amen!
    And above all, Visca Dumb racist Catalans for starting this “democratic hate process” . You’ve helped Madrid more than you could ever imagine. At least in the next coming centuries there’ll be no Catalonia on the map. Each province having more autonomy like Navarre.
    This will be so easy that you won’t even believe your eyes.
    Adios to your banana nation. :)
    You guys always forget, that Spain gets the last laugh.
    Because Spain belongs to Spain. How hard is it to understand? If you don’t like it, move to Andorra.

  198. avatar
    Victor

    Jake,

    As commented previously, on Catalan democracy everyone is welcome, regarless their color, race and culture. A good evidence of this fact is the diversity of associations that support catalan culture and 9N democratic consultation. Find some examples below:
    http://www.sumate.cat/p/portada.html
    http://www.nouscatalans.cat/
    https://www.omnium.cat/english

    On the other hand, Jake is sadly trying to exclude the people who do not share his feelings of belonging to Spain by telling them ‘If you don’t like it, move to Andorra’.

    During more that 300 years, we Catalans have seen how Spanish imperialism used the Army against People freedom every 2 or 3 generations. Thus, it will not be a surprise if Central Government tries to follow this sad tradition Jake described as ‘the suspension and division of Catalonia’.
    As Gandhi did in India’s campaigns for Independence, we are ready to persist in our nonviolent resistance movement.

    Finally, if Catalonia had the same authonomy of Navarre, if would be very welcome … In particular, its special scheme of regional financing that provides fiscal surplus in such a rich region instead of the huge Catalan fiscal deficit.
    I suggest Jake to read this unionist newspaper link:
    http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20140723/54412386000/deficit-fiscal-catalunya-8-455-milllones.html

  199. avatar
    Eli

    Catalans called to vote on 9-N.
    The president signs the decree and formally convenes the consultation on independence.
    More than 90 per cent of municipalities pass motion in support of referendum.
    You can see the official webside of the Government of Catalonia about the consultation:
    http://www.9nconsulta2014.cat

  200. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Catalonia alone should not have any more powers like Navarre. It should be at least divided and such powers should be given to more pro hispanic province like Tarragona ( the True Capital of HISPANIA, can you argue about that? Mr Victor). Barcelona, obviously will still be MILKED! This is the opportunity that Madrid has been waiting for, for more than 30 years, after that crooked constitution gave some powers to nationalist regions! it took so long… finally, its time to take it back!

    I hope Catalans start demonstrating in Barcelona causing chaos, and then Madrid makes the move. Bam. Suspension of Catalonia, Cancelling all and Everything Catalan, seat in UN, embassies etc, then Bam, Autonomy for Tarragona. What will your Catalonia look like? Barcelona (which is more than 60% Spanish already) can fight all they want, no one will help you, NO ONE.

    Will you call for help from France? Italy? (Don’t forget that France has its own share of Idiots, notably in Corsica, who always wanted independence for a very long time and their case is far more worthy of Independence than Catalonia, and their territories in South America which obviously is still part of France and they want independence too // and also, if given a chance, almost all Northern Italians will vote for independence, Sicilia in the south will vote for independence WITHOUT a doubt if given the opportunity) .
    The only country that might help will be Morocco.

    And who will even call for help? Artur Mas? He will be in jail if everything goes as plan. Or is it that half blind ERC leader? With eyes looking at two opposite directions at the same time, wonder why he can’t see straight.

    Don’t forget the referendum in Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which means absolutely nothing in the international community no matter if the residents had 95% vote for independence. If you don’t want to live in Ukraine, move to Russia. If you don’t want to live in Spain, move to Andorra. Simple.

    And having a mentally unstable president like Artur Mas, does not help either. Do you seriously picture him giving hand shake to Obama, Merkel or Hollande as The president of The Republic of Catalonia? His status will be equal to the president of Donetsk.
    Democratic Perverts are not needed in the international scene.
    Don’t want to mention names, but there was a nationalist leader in Europe who caused a World War, In the name of “Love of the Nation”. I think he has inspired Artur Mas a lot.

  201. avatar
    Frank Green

    I think Spain, Europe and the whole world must realise the very grave danger to world peace with this separatist epidemic spreading round the world,which will lead to local civil wars and then regional and world war. This phenomenon is so dangers, on a par with international terrorism and is related to nationalism with xenophobic/ racist undertones and will eventually morph into fascism and genocide. UN should insist any current separatist demands must be negotiated under a federalist solution to avoid very real danger of outbreak of war. basically, this is a world problem and this fragmentation of nations will eventually spiral out of control causing chaos and death.

    • avatar
      Victor

      ‘Chaos’ ‘death’ ‘world war’… Wow Frank! Your apocaliptic vision seems taken out of a nightmare … But please, wake up…
      We are just talking about peaceful people willing to vote to decide the political future of its country.

  202. avatar
    Eli

    Don’t distort the question.
    We’re talking about democracy and people’s rights.
    In Catalonia there’s any problem about terrorism, war, fascim or genocide.

  203. avatar
    Victor

    First Scotland, Now Spain (By Bloomberg Editors 1st October)

    ‘Like the Scots, the Catalans want a referendum on independence. Unlike the British, the Spaniards aren’t inclined to let them have it. This is a mistake, and Spain’s leaders need to show some unwonted statesmanship by making a vote possible — even as they campaign for union.’
    (…)
    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-10-01/first-scotland-now-spain

  204. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    You forgot that Unlike the Scots, Catalonia was NEVER independent.
    Scotland was an independent kingdom, while Catalonia was just a part of Aragon. In other words, you are comparing the Kingdom of Scotland to some province in Aragon. Scotland and Catalonia have NOTHING in common.

    And more importantly, unlike the Scots, whose main and only aim was for equality and dignity in compliance with the LAW because they’ve got deep respect for DEMOCRACY, the Catalan nationalism is the most xenophobic and racist in Europe,not only that, they are willing/campaigning to break the Law, cursing anyone who’s against them, threatening and trying to blackmail the Government of Spain, hijacking the politics of the region, which should have been about trying to improve the lives of all Catalans, but no, for years now, the only thing you hear about Catalonia, is their threats to all Spaniards and to the central Government in Madrid. Which makes it harder for the even, good/soft heart Rajoy (If there was a true macho president, this wouldn’t have gone this far) to negotiate. This will be like giving your diamonds to a thief at gun point.

    Lets not forget their cover-up racist organisations like Omnium and ANC. Their leaders are willing to kick anyone out,if you don’t want to vote for independence especially that lesbian of ANC.
    They always say, that they’re on the quest for “purification of Catalonia” and to correct “History”. If you don’t agree with them, you are not Catalan. Their new motto_ is : V for victory, V for violence, V for violating the Rights of all Spaniards etc.

  205. avatar
    Eli

    Catalan mayors deliver their support motions to the referendum, including Barcelona’s mayor. Mayors of 96 % of the Catalonian cities and villages expressed yesterday their support motions to the Catalan referendum next November 9th to President Artur Mas, in Catalan Goverment Palace.

    All together 920 Catalonian villages said yes to a referendum over Catalonia’s future.

    http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticia/4213619/20141004/catalan-mayors-overwhelming-support-consultation-vote.html

    • avatar
      Peter Miles

      The referendum should allow all Catalans in spain to vote. ie those borne in Catalunya, who speak Catalan. Sure have a vote. But if all Catalans vote, it is very unlikely that they will opt for independence, especially when their political leadership – Mas included – is so flawed.

  206. avatar
    Victor

    Hi Peter,
    I personally think that political leadership in Catalonia is better than Spain, but I respect your opinion. Thank you for your support to Catalan Referendum!

  207. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    I see the suspension of the Catalan autonomy, if this continues.
    And with a seat in the UN, who can stop Spain?
    And if it is suspended, i think Madrid, will take advantage of this situation and make sure it’ll never happen again. What better way to do this than to divide Catalonia into 2 or 3 Provinces? This is the freedom all Catalans have been fighting for.
    Catalans wanted to be free, Madrid will give them freedom.( à la Castillian).
    In the end, mouths will be shut in disbelief.

    • avatar
      Victor

      Madrid no quiere a Cataluña (Periodico Clarín. Argentina)
      Publicado el 25 Septiembre 2014
      ESCRITO POR FELIPE PORTALES


      En toda relación social voluntaria que busca establecer un destino común es fundamental que exista, al menos, algún grado de afecto entre las partes. De otra forma, esa relación no tiene futuro. Esto lo hemos visto muy bien reflejado en el caso de Inglaterra respecto de Escocia.
      (…)
      En el caso de Madrid se ha seguido una conducta totalmente contrapuesta respecto de Cataluña. Primero, hay que tener en cuenta que los agravios históricos sufridos por Cataluña han sido muchísimo mayores que los de Escocia. Pese a ello, cuando los catalanes comenzaron a mostrar mayores deseos de autonomía, la respuesta del establishment español fue claramente negativa. Incluso, cuando ellos aprobaron democráticamente una ampliación de aquella (a través del Estatut), el gobierno español recurrió al Tribunal Constitucional, de conformación PP-PSOE, para intentar anularlo; lo que logró parcialmente luego de una exasperante dilación de varios años.

      Por otro lado, el gobierno nacional se negó también a una renegociación de los términos económicos de su relación con Cataluña; pese a que esta se sentía muy injustamente tratada. Como reacción e este menosprecio sistemático, se generó en el pueblo catalán una expresión de deseos y manifestaciones independentistas como nunca antes en la historia contemporanea. Así, el principal partido catalán Convergencia y Unio, que no era independentista, se convirtió en tal. Y más aún, en las últimas elecciones regionales celebradas en 2012, los partidos independentistas obtuvieron el 64,4% de los escaños del Parlament.

      Y cuando –producto de esa mayoría- el gobierno catalán planteó la idea de hacer un referéndum sobre la independencia, la reacción de Madrid ha sido “de miedo”. Se la ha atacado sin misericordia; usando para ello todas las descalificaciones imaginables. Hasta se la ha calificado de locura. Y se ha amedrentado de forma abierta y sostenida al pueblo catalán por su “atrevimiento”. Que quedaría fuera de la Unión Europea; que se usarán todos los recursos legales para evitarla; y por último, que se empleará la fuerza si se insiste en efectuar el referéndum.

      Ni los políticos, ni los medios de comunicación y ni siquiera los intelectuales madridistas han hecho algún esfuerzo para tratar de convencerlos –como hicieron los ingleses con los escoceses- de que un destino común sería mucho más favorable para ambos. ¡Para qué hablar de demostrarles algún cariño o simplemente respeto! Incluso, en los debates de la Televisión Española, que son vistos en toda América, se hace gala de quien descalifica más a los catalanes…

      Así, el establishment madrileño ha demostrado, además de una carencia de afecto asociativo a los catalanes, una total ausencia de lógica democrática para afrontar el tema. La insistencia en argüir que se violaría la Constitución española con un referéndum constituye una penosa falacia. Primero, porque es del ABC del derecho contemporáneo que el derecho internacional –particularmente en el caso de los derechos humanos- prima sobre el interno. Segundo, porque obviamente la Constitución puede modificarse si hay voluntad política para ello. Y, tercero, porque constituye un absurdo en un sistema democrático utilizar un pretexto legal para mantener a un pueblo sin derecho a decidir su futuro.

      ¿Por qué los españoles no pueden seguir el ejemplo que ya dos veces ha dado Canadá respecto de Quebec; o el que dio la República Checa y Eslovaca; o el que dio Serbia respecto de Montenegro; o el flamante dado por Gran Bretaña?

      Lo más triste es que pareciera que la elite madridista es tan, pero tan autoritaria, que no pareciera darse cuenta que con sus actitudes actuales está asegurando una ruptura futura con Cataluña. Si es que aprecian en algo a los catalanes, ¡cómo no se dan cuenta que los están virtualmente empujando a la separación! Claro, con la violencia o la amenaza de su uso podrán quizá mantener la “unidad” por un tiempo; pero estarán perdiendo los afectos asociativos catalanes quizás para siempre.

      Así, lo que está claro, al menos hasta el día de hoy, es que Madrid quiere imponerse a los Catalanes, pero no quiere a Cataluña…

  208. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    I think if Catalonia is divided, each new region (province) will be happy.
    Maybe Madrid will be willing to give special tax conditions to the new regions?
    Visca ex-Catalunia.

  209. avatar
    Eli

    Catalonia is divided only in your mind, dear Jake…

  210. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Just wait till Madrid is fed up.
    You know what happens to Catalonia, when a Galician is Ruling Spain.
    Its just a matter of days before Catalan leaders make the most lethal mistake in all of Catalan history. They will be honored as Spanish heroes in the future. For giving Spain such a wonderful opportunity in dividing Catalonia. We are all waiting for their declaration of independence. Few days after, no Catalonia on the map of Spain. And by the way in case it wasn’t obvious to you, Spain owes no explanation to anyone. No one will even dare open their mouth to criticize Spain. What can they do about it? Who are they in the first place? The USA/ Nato will side with rebels?

    Did you guys see what happened in Ukraine? No matter if the Donbas region had 95% support for independence, it is still part of Ukraine, because the Government of Ukraine says so. If yo don’t want to live in Ukraine, you can leave. Same thing applies to Spain.Lincoln, knew how to handle separatists too, he’s a national hero.
    And what can Catalans do if Spain suspends the autonomy and cancel all the powers that Catalonia enjoyed, to suspend all the so called Catalan embassies in the world, take control over the Catalan police, etc ?
    All I see is Catalans, trying to take advantage of the death of Franco.
    When he was still around, all Catalans lived as they should, obeying Madrid.
    Because it is the only natural and legal thing to do.
    Well, we will see in the next coming months who owns who. And who is the Master.
    But I must say this will all end in tears. And Spain won’t be the one crying.

  211. avatar
    Victor

    Sezession ist eine Form der politischen Dezentralisierung. Sie stärkt den wirtschaftspolitischen Wettbewerb und dadurch die wirtschaftliche Freiheit.

    Die folgenden europäischen Staaten verdanken ihre Existenz einer Sezession:

    die Schweiz (1291), Schweden (1523), die Niederlande (1579), Portugal (1640), Griechenland (1827), Belgien (1831), Norwegen (1905), Finnland (1917), Irland (1921), Island (1944), die baltischen Staaten (1990), Slowenien (1991), Kroatien (1991), Mazedonien (1991), Bosnien-Herzegowina (1992), die Slowakei (1992) und Montenegro (2006).

    Keine dieser Sezessionen – außer der norwegischen – war verfassungsgemäß. Auch die Unabhängigkeitserklärung des slowakischen Parlaments vom Juli 1992 hatte keinerlei Rechtsgrundlage in der Verfassung der Tschechoslowakei – die Sezession wurde erst nachträglich im November 1992 legalisiert.

    Den Katalanen wird entgegen gehalten, dass sich die spanische Verfassung nach Art. 2 “auf die unauflösliche Einheit der spanischen Nation, gemeinsames und unteilbares Vaterland aller Spanier, gründet”. Dieser Artikel geht auf Art. 2 der Verfassung (des “Staatsorganisationsgesetzes”) des Franco-Regimes zurück. Ähnliche Bestimmungen gibt es jedoch auch in der französischen und der italienischen Verfassung. Nach Art. 2 der französischen Verfassung ist Frankreich “eine unteilbare, laizistische, demokratische und soziale Republik”. Art. 5 der italienischen Verfassung schreibt vor: “Die Republik ist eine Einheit und unteilbar”. Die Katalanen berufen sich auf die “International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights”, die Spanien 1977 ratifiziert hat und nach der “all peoples have the right of self-determination” (Art. 1.1).

    Anders als das slowakische Parlament will das katalanische Parlament die Bürger über die Unabhängigkeit abstimmen lassen. Nach Art. 149 Abs. 1 Nr. 32 der spanischen Verfassung besitzt jedoch der spanische Staat die ausschließliche Zuständigkeit für die Genehmigung von Volksabstimmungen. Deshalb hat das katalanische Parlament lediglich – mit etwa 80 Prozent der Stimmen – eine “unverbindliche Konsultation” der Bürger für den 09. November dieses Jahres anberaumt. Das spanische Verfassungsgericht hat diese Konsultation auf Antrag der spanischen Regierung vorläufig untersagt. Das unterscheidet Spanien zum Beispiel von der Schweiz, Kanada und Großbritannien: über die Unabhängigkeit des Kanton Jura (1979), Quebecs (1995) und Schottlands (2014) durften die Bürger frei abstimmen. Der kanadische Supreme Court hat sogar 1998 ausdrücklich festgestellt, dass jede Provinz das Recht hat, solche Abstimmungen durchzuführen.

    In der politischen Philosophie gilt ein Staat dann als legitimiert, wenn er als Ergebnis eines von allen Bürgern freiwillig geschlossenen Gesellschaftsvertrags gedacht werden kann. Es ist ein allgemeines Rechtsprinzip, dass jeder Vertrag gekündigt werden kann, auch wenn die Formalitäten der Auflösung nicht spezifiziert worden sind. Es gibt keine unkündbaren Verträge. Auch darauf können sich die Katalanen berufen.

    Eigentlich müsste das Sezessionsrecht von den internationalen Organisationen geschützt werden. Sie erheben den Anspruch, die Einhaltung der Menschenrechte in den Mitgliedstaaten zu überwachen. Das internationale Regelwerk könnte zur Bedingung machen, dass auch der sezedierende Teilstaat die Rechte von Minderheiten respektieren muss und den Handel und Kapitalverkehr nicht (zusätzlich) beschränken darf. Auch könnte festgelegt werden, wie die Rechte und Pflichten des Vorgängerstaates nach der Sezession zwischen dem sezedierenden Teilstaat und dem Rumpfstaat zu verteilen sind.

    Aber weder die Vereinten Nationen noch die Europäische Union erkennen ein Recht auf Sezession an. In der UNO ist es meist so, dass der sezedierende Teilstaat seine Mitgliedschaft verliert und einen neuen Aufnahmeantrag stellen muss. In Europa haben die Kommissionspräsidenten Prodi, Barroso und Juncker, die Justizkommissarin Reding, die Kommissare Almunia und Rehn und Ratspräsident van Rompuy behauptet, dass dieses Verfahren auch in der Europäischen Union gelten müsse. Weder die Kommission noch der Ratspräsident sind jedoch befugt, diese Frage zu entscheiden. Ihre Rechtsauffassung hat auch keinerlei Grundlage in den europäischen Verträgen. Es gibt auch keinen europäischen Präzedenzfall. Die Katalanen können sich sogar darauf berufen, dass sie nach dem Vertrag von Lissabon Bürger der Europäischen Union sind und dieses Bürgerrecht nicht durch eine Abspaltung von Spanien verlieren können. Ein automatischer Ausschluss aus der EU würde außerdem dem vertraglich geschuldeten Respekt vor der Demokratie, den Regionen, der kulturellen und sprachlichen Vielfalt und den Rechten von Minderheiten zuwiderlaufen. Schließlich hat selbst ein Mitgliedstaat, der – wie vielleicht Großbritannien – seinen Austritt ankündigt, das Recht, bevor er ausscheidet, Verhandlungen über die Modalitäten zu führen (Art. 50 EUV).

    Ob der sezedierende Teilstaat aufhört, Mitglied der internationalen Organisation zu sein und die Mitgliedschaft neu beantragen muss, ist in keiner UN-Vereinbarung und auch nicht in der Wiener Vertragskonvention zur Staatennachfolge (vgl. Art. 4) geregelt. Es gibt nur eine internationale Praxis, und diese ist keineswegs einheitlich.

    Die UNO hat nicht immer von der ausscheidenden Region einen neuen Mitgliedsantrag verlangt. Als sich Syrien 1961 von der Vereinigten Arabischen Republik (der Union mit Ägypten) abspaltete, wurde es automatisch – ohne Antrag – als Mitglied aufgenommen. Auf der anderen Seite gibt es auch einen Fall – die Auflösung Jugoslawiens –, in dem die UNO weder die ausscheidenden Regionen noch den Rumpfstaat (Serbien-Montenegro) automatisch als Mitglieder anerkannte.

    Der Internationale Währungsfonds und die Weltbank haben die jugoslawischen Teilstaaten sowie die Slowakei und die Tschechische Republik unter bestimmten Bedingungen weiter als Mitglieder geführt.

    Die World Meteorological Organization (WMO), die Universal Postal Union (UPU) und die International Atomic Energy Organization (IAEO) taten dies ohne explizite Bedingungen.

    Auch der World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) genügte es, dass die ehemaligen Sowjetrepubliken Georgien, Kasachstan, Kyrgisistan, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan und Usbekistan einfach die Fortdauer ihrer Mitgliedschaft bestätigten.

    Geht man von der Theorie des Gesellschaftsvertrages aus, so gibt es im Falle einer Sezession oder einvernehmlichen Trennung – was die Mitgliedschaft in internationalen Organisationen und generell die völkerrechtlichen Verpflichtungen angeht – zwei alternative, in sich konsistente Lösungen. Entweder es tritt keiner der verbleibenden Teilstaaten die Nachfolge an, weil das Staatsvolk der einzelnen Teilstaaten nicht mit dem Staatsvolk des ursprünglichen Gesamtstaats identisch ist. Das ist die puristische Lösung. Oder aber alle Teilstaaten treten in die Rechtsnachfolge ein, weil dies der Rechtssicherheit dient. Das war der Grundgedanke der Wiener Konvention für die Staatennachfolge. Es steht ja jedem Teilstaat frei, die völkerrechtlichen Verträge des Gesamtstaats später zu kündigen. Die Praxis der UNO, meist nur einen der Teilstaaten – in der Regel den größten – automatisch als Rechtsnachfolger anzuerkennen, ist rechtlich unbefriedigend und wohl nur damit zu erklären, dass die Regierungen der UN-Mitgliedstaaten in ihrem eigenen Land ebenfalls die Mehrheit vertreten. Aus dem gleichen Grund tritt die UNO nicht für das Sezessionsrecht ein. Wenn im Interesse der Rechtssicherheit und im Geiste der Wiener Vertragsrechtskonvention automatisch alle Teilstaaten die Rechtsnachfolge antreten, müssen sie die bestehenden gesamtstaatlichen Verbindlichkeiten und Forderungen untereinander aufteilen. Wie sie das tun, ist ihre Sache. Wenn sie ihre Verpflichtungen gegenüber Dritten nicht honorieren, können sie ausgeschlossen oder einem Vertragsverletzungsverfahren unterworfen werden.

    Die europäischen Institutionen tun alles, um Sezessionen zu verhindern, denn Dezentralisierung widerspricht ihrem Selbstverständnis. Die einzelnen Mitgliedstaaten sind zumeist gegenüber dem Sezessionsrecht aufgeschlossener, denn sie könnten sich selbst einmal darauf berufen wollen. Einige von ihnen haben allerdings selbst Regionen, die nach Unabhängigkeit streben – man denke an Flandern, Südtirol und Korsika. Von diesen Mitgliedstaaten haben die Katalanen nicht Unterstützung, sondern Widerstand zu erwarten.

    Die heutigen Staaten Europas sind das Ergebnis von Jahrhunderten und Jahrtausenden der Willkür und der Gewalt. Die Zufälligkeiten der dynastischen Erbfolge und brutale Eroberungskriege haben die meisten ihrer Grenzen bestimmt. Das Sezessionsrecht ist notwendig, damit sich endlich politische Einheiten bilden können, die den Wünschen der Bürger entsprechen.

    http://wirtschaftlichefreiheit.de/wordpress/?p=15663&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Berthold+%28Wirtschaftliche+Freiheit%29

  212. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Désolé, Catalonia will never become independent.
    Maybe in the next century?
    But for now it is impossible.
    You’ll just have to live with that.

    • avatar
      Riverfield

      Just wait and see

  213. avatar
    Victor

    Tic tac, tic tac, tic tac…
    Only 8 days remain to vote about Catalonia’s independence.
    It is a very important step to get our freedom as a country, but unfortunately we Catalans know it will not be the last one.

    Support Catalan referendum and give democracy a chance !

  214. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Lol, there will be no vote,
    The only thing left is
    tic tac, tic tac, tic tac ….
    to the suspension of Catalan autonomy FOREVER
    Visca ex-Catalunia!

  215. avatar
    Eli

    Perhaps you are a Spanish Tribunal Constitucional’s member, Jake…
    because your democratical sense is so high …

  216. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    Thanks Eli, for pointing it out.
    I love democracy so much that, I can’t stand to see Spaniards being robbed in their own land.It would be injustice. Give democracy a chance, let Spaniards decide on the future of Spain.
    The future of Spain should not be left in the hands of crazy nationalists/racists/hispanophobes/criminals/mafiozzos/perverts/psychos/small-minded/immoral/stupid/empty-headed/low-lives and renegade out laws.

    Spanish Laws protects all Spaniards and above all, SPAIN.
    When a group of Spaniards start feeling superior to the whole, that’s their own problem. If you don’t want to live in Spain, move to Andorra. Leave Spain alone.
    Nothing/ No one will ever divide Spain. How hard is it to understand?Do these Nationalists have brains anymore? lol.

  217. avatar
    Victor

    Spain’s Corruption May Set Catalonia Free

    By Leonid Bershidsky
    (Bloomberg)
    Catalonia’s determination to go ahead with a symbolic vote on independence from Spain on Sunday — despite being banned by the nation’s constitutional court — now has an additional layer of legitimacy. Spain’s ruling People’s Party, which scuppered the Catalan version of “devo-max” four years ago, has turned out to be so sickeningly corrupt that it has no right to tell anyone what to do.

    The legal arguments for and against Catalan independence can be kicked around endlessly. They are part of the dead-end debate about two mutually contradictory principles embedded in the United Nations Charter: territorial integrity and self-determination. Legal opinions on cases of unilateral secession — Kosovo, Transnistria, Somaliland, the “assisted secession” of Crimea — stress that international law calls for self-determination within the framework of existing states, except in cases when a “people” (whatever that may be) suffers from major rights violations inflicted by the state.

    Catalonia is no Somaliland, and nothing is extreme about its treatment by Spain. Yet Catalans could argue that their rights were first recognized and then trampled by Madrid. In 2006, both houses of the Spanish parliament — and the people of Catalonia in a referendum — voted for the region’s new Statute of Autonomy, and King Juan Carlos signed it. The document granted the wealthy region — which accounts for 16 percent of Spain’s population, 19 percent of its gross domestic product and 21 percent of research and development spending — broad self-government and fiscal powers not unlike those Scotland is about to get after its failed independence referendum.

    Had those powers remained in place, there would probably be no question of secession now. Yet the People’s Party, in opposition at the time, challenged the document in the Constitutional Court. Four years later, the court struck down 14 articles of the statute and reinterpreted another 27. The ruling, in effect, said that Catalonia had no right to call itself a nation, just a “nationality” under the Spanish constitution. It declared Catalonia’s extended tax powers unconstitutional and told the region it had to stick with the Spanish scheme of administrative division.

    Throughout the appeal process, it was the current prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, who led the People’s Party. After it returned to power in 2011, Rajoy went back to the Constitutional Court again and again, seeking and receiving rulings against continued Catalan attempts to get more independence from Madrid. And we now know that throughout all this, he presided over some of the most rampant corruption ever revealed in Spain.

    The People’s Party’s former treasurer, Luis Barcenas, says Rajoy and a former economics minister, Rodrigo Rato, received illegal cash from a slush fund. Rato has also been accused of running up an enormous bill on a corporate credit card issued by Bankia, the bailed-out financial group he chaired between 2010 and 2012. Local party officials seem to have been caught taking kickbacks to award government contracts. Last week, 51 former and current officials, including some top People’s Party figures, were arrested.

    Rajoy has apologized on behalf of his party “to all Spaniards for having appointed to positions for which they were not worthy those who would seem to have abused them.” The apology, however, will not be enough to explain to Spaniards why the leader of a party whose banners have “austerity” written all over them has not been able to impose it on his close co-workers and perhaps even on himself.

    Podemos, the leftist, anti-establishment party, now leads in Spanish polls. Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias has indicated that his political force favors Catalans’ right to decide their own destiny. The next election is not until late 2015, but Rajoy is not popular enough, and certainly does not have enough moral authority, for the nation to unite around him on issues of principle.

    The nationalists in Catalonia lived through a financial scandal of their own last summer when the region’s former president Jordi Pujol, the independence movement’s patriarch, admitted hiding undeclared funds outside Spain. This was considered a setback in the campaign for an independence vote. The scale of Pujol’s wrongdoing, however, pales in comparison with the shenanigans for which Rajoy has apologized.

    The tables have turned on the man who did his best to deny Catalans more autonomy within Spain. It is even harder for him to keep the country together than it was for Prime Minister David Cameron in the U.K.: He is explicitly not trusted. And the Catalans now have a great story to tell about a thoroughly corrupt political machine denying them their rights as a nation.
    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-11-05/spain-s-corruption-may-set-catalonia-free

  218. avatar
    Eli

    I am Catalan and I voted today, 9 November.
    One of the happiest moment of my life.

  219. avatar
    Eli

    2,236,806 Catalans voted yesterday in Catalan participation process, 9 November

    A summary published in Vilaweb today:

    “A total of 1,806,336 (80,78%) Catalans voted YES for independence, 101,601 (4,5%) Catalans voted No and 225,659 (10,07%) voted for a federal reformation of Spain in which Catalonia would be considered a state.

    In all Catalan towns, hundreds of thousands of citizens have taken to the streets in an atmosphere of enjoyment and vindication to form long queues in front of the polling stations, which were controlled by volunteers and volunteer civil servants. The successive prohibitions of the Spanish government and the courts of the State forced the independence vote to be held under difficult conditions, which makes the success of the call still more remarkable.

    The polling stations were open all day without any special incident, only a few extreme right-wingers tried to break an urn in Girona and were arrested. Amongst the organisers and the sovereigntist parties the atmosphere was one of euphoria, bearing in mind the difficulties they have had to face in recent days”.

  220. avatar
    JAKE WINNINGS

    I am Glad that Separatist Catalans could Vote on Sunday.
    It shows how Spain is indeed, an advanced Democracy and has a lot of respect for all Spaniards (the government could have ordered the police to remove all the ballot boxes, but it didn’t)
    There is also an absolute proof that the ERC leader was counting the Ballots!
    What a banana democracy and independent Catalonia will be.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL0lIzv58ew

    The results are indeed accurate.
    Out of 6.2 Million eligible voters, only 1.8 Million, want independence.
    So, in other words, only about 25% of Catalans hate Spain and Spaniards.

    The Same 1.8 Million are the ones who always demonstrate for independence.
    So these results show the real truth behind those demonstrations.
    Even though they are a minority, I think Rajoy should at least give or propose a better financial system, to show support to those 75% of Catalans who love the diversity of Spain, its culture and its people. All Spaniards are proud of Catalonia. Remember the Olympic Games that the Spanish government fought very hard for it to be organised in Barcelona. Barcelona has always been the epitome of Spain. If there’s only one City recognized as Spain, it will be Barcelona. Be It in movies, video games, animes (Dressrosa in the hit anime One Piece!) , international forums, etc.
    Now that those racists have their mouths shut in disbelief (that they are indeed a minority) , the Silent Majority has Spoken
    This campaign for independence has only increase the hatred of Valencians towards Catalan and anything Catalan. Which is also a very good thing.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lqqayOn6W8

    NO more Racism/hatred in Catalonia!
    Visca all the broken hearts :P
    Viva Spagna!

    • avatar
      Eli

      Spain, an advanced democracy?
      LOL
      At this moment Catalan people are happy because 9N was a success.
      I highly recommend the Bloomberg’s article about Catalonia’s vote.

  221. avatar
    Victor

    Catalonia’s Vote Was a Success. Now Negotiate.
    184 NOV 10, 2014 12:42 PM EST
    By Bloomberg Editors

    Catalonia’s independence vote on Sunday was encouraging — not in creating momentum for the region that wants to break off from Spain, but in laying a foundation for political agreement on how best to decide the question.

    Perhaps for the first time, the national government in Madrid made the smart choice, allowing the nonbinding “consultation” to go forward without interference from the police. In that same spirit, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy should now arrange for a proper referendum and a free and full debate.

    Until now, Rajoy’s approach to Catalan frustration has been inflammatory. He and the ruling People’s Party have treated the region’s demands — first for greater autonomy, and later the right to vote on independence — as merely a legal issue, using courts to shut down a constitutional debate. That policy failed when Catalonia ignored a ruling that declared even Sunday’s consultation vote illegal. Rajoy then came under pressure to shut the vote down by force. That would have ensured mass protests, violence and a further surge of support for Catalonia’s secession. This is why he deserves credit for stepping back.

    In the same vein, Rajoy should now ignore demands that he prosecute those who enabled the vote — including local officials who opened polling places. Rajoy’s justice minister, Rafael Catala, demonstrated precisely how not to respond when he dismissed Sunday’s vote — in which more than 2 million Spanish citizens participated — as “a sterile and useless sham” and threatened legal action.

    Next, Rajoy should engage quickly in the kind of negotiations over the region’s status that he has resisted until now. Opening a legal path to a referendum would put the onus on Catalonia’s politicians to show similar patience, rather than hold a quick follow-up referendum to drive their case home. Then, both sides would have time to debate the advantages and disadvantages of splitting apart.

    Sunday’s vote result suggests that Catalans are open to hearing both sides of the argument. Yes, 81 percent voted for independence, but this was hardly decisive, given that turnout was at most 33 percent. That’s far short of recent elections and a pale shadow of what one would expect in a properly organized and fought independence vote. (Eighty-five percent of eligible Scots turned out for their recent independence referendum.)

    Popular views are better reflected by the regular opinion polls suggesting that about 50 percent of Catalans would vote for independence in a true referendum. And the more important poll number is the 80 percent who say they just want the right to vote: Rising anger at the Spanish government’s intransigence has contributed to pro-independence sentiment. The first step to persuading Catalans to stay in Spain would be to map out a legal, constitutional route to giving them their say.

    Catalonia’s proposed secession would be even more fraught with risk than was Scotland’s. It would carve away about 20 percent of Spain’s economy, compared with 8 percent for the U.K. Investors in Catalonia’s bonds certainly believe independence would be at least as bad for the region as for the rest of Spain. So in a real campaign, in which voters are confronted with the realities of assuming up to 200 billion euros ($250 billion) of Spanish debt, the case for unity should be winnable.

    Unless Rajoy opens the door to compromise, however, opinions in Catalonia and Madrid will continue to harden. Then, rather than a healthy, constructive debate, Spain will face escalating confrontation’
    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-11-10/catalonias-vote-was-a-success-now-negotiate

  222. avatar
    victor

    9N – We voted, we won.
    Summary of the citizen participation process held on 9 November 2014, where citizens could vote on political future of Catalonia with the double question “Catalonia wants to become a state? If so, you want this state to be independent?” .
    Participation was 2,305,290 people. A 80.76% (1,861,753 votes) voted Yes-Yes, 10.07% (232,182 votes) voted Yes-No and 4.5% (104,772 votes) voted No.
    Thanks to all the 40,930 volunteers that made this historic day.

    http://youtu.be/Hcq66iJA_J4?t=3m25s

  223. avatar
    victor

    Eventhough modern world is taking Catalan process seriously, Spain keep following same pattern of century XIX when Cuba and Philliphinnes won their Independence:

    1. The European Youth Parliament calls for the establishment of a new accession process to the EU for Catalonia
    http://www.diplocat.cat/en/activities/217-exchanges/596-the-european-youth-parliament-calls-for-the-establishment-of-a-new-accession-process-to-the-eu-for-catalonia

    2. Internationally renowned personalities ask for the Catalans to be able to vote
    http://www.diplocat.cat/en/activities/599-internationally-renowned-personalities-ask-for-the-catalans-to-be-able-to-vote

    3. European Parliamentary Delegation to observe 9N. The spokesman of the Delegation, Ian Duncan, says that “voting is not a crime”
    http://www.diplocat.cat/en/activities/80-exchanges/international-visitors/610-european-parliamentary-delegation-to-observe-9n

    4. Better together or happy apart? Independence movements in Europe. Hertie School of Governance // Berlin, Germany. European experts ask the EU to stop avoiding the debate on the possible emergence of new states
    http://www.diplocat.cat/en/catalan-issues/debates-about-catalonia/592-better-together-or-happy-apart-independence-movements-in-europe-hertie-school-of-governance-berlin-germany

    5. The General Attorney of the Spanish State has submitted today lawsuit against president de la Generalitat, Artur Mas. He is accused of Absolutely delightful grave disobedience, prevarication, embezzlement and usurpation of functions due to his participation in the Process of 9N.
    http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20141121/54420093201/fiscalia-presenta-querella-mas-9n.html

    • avatar
      Ramón Gefaell de la Peña

      I Never deny my own right, and of course the right of my fellow neighbours,,, to vote an decide over whatever political or Social formula, with some possibility of success for a better development and wealthness of our country and neighbours of Spain and the UE, and the World , BUT. The current Planet Situation is Really not a Joke, but a Terrible Threat of a Dramatic End to its Ability to Sustain Life in its Athmosphere, if we don’t STOP IMMEDIATLY our CARBON Emission with the burning of the ‘murders Fossil Fuels’ (I’m not an Ecologist but a Doctor Who usually voted ‘Converència i Unió’ -center right-, and Scientifically interested in Life and only now Very Much in th earth’s catastrophic destruction by Oil and gas waste !! , AND that’s Not at all a Political question, But a Physical Certainty of the Eary Detruction of the planet, for a few Bilions of $$ !!!!

  224. avatar
    Ramón Gefaell de la Peña

    In normal circumstances, I would most probably say yes., to a Catalan secession, without fighting with the rest of Spain, but going head to head, shoulder by shoulder, and with the rest fd European countries in the EU, But, in the terrible current Geological and Clean Energy poverty in the Earth, for Human Development and wealthness, it is Not at All Possible, and we must resist together until an Immediate energy and ‘mental’ Shift takes Place in the Planet !

  225. avatar
    feri

    I think it’s very important that people stay United so they can stay strong as a whole and if they get partitioned they would get weaker.

    • avatar
      Victor

      If you are free, you can associate freely to others and finish into a trusted Union within equals.
      (just the opposite of what happens in Catalonia )

  226. avatar
    Mehlwenkosi Buthelezi

    It would be a good thing to do if Spain grant the Catalan freedom of independence and self-determination. I support the referendum for Catalonia Independence, it would be undemocratic not to let them exercise their right to vote. -KwaZulu-Natal independent from SA (UBUMBANO REPUBLIC)

    • avatar
      Victor

      Yes Mehlwnkosi
      I agree!

  227. avatar
    hidii.cn

    I am so grateful for this article and thanks a lot for sharing
    it with us.

  228. avatar
    Steve

    Who on Earth is Jake Winnings? Doesn’t seem to exist as a real person, so by the sound of his rantings he’s a Spanish-sponsored conglomerate, and very right of centre at that. Am I getting close “Jake”?

  229. avatar
    Demon

    The purpose of the creation of the EEC before the European Union was to try and prevent another European War. With unelected Dictators in the EU and no joined up thinking from any of them, any further integration of the EU with Member States is actually more likely to start another war – you only have to look at the rise of the Right Wing Parties across Europe due to the Global Recession and the financial impact it has had on European Tax Payers.

    The Eurozone (Those countries that adopted the Euro) was rigged from day 1, figures fiddled, Member States permitted entry when they couldn’t meet the criteria – it’s an unmitigated mess that will impact on European Tax Payers for Generations unless it collapses or it is destroyed wilfully.

    The United States of America is a failed country, failed democracy and a failed economic state… why on earth would anyone want a United States of Europe?

  230. avatar
    Jorge Prieto Prat

    Catalonian independence: let’s look at the map

    I wish I could speak all languages and inherit all lineages, but one lifetime is not enough; we must keep trying in the next, since we are only what we are allowed to be by passports and borders, which must defend us from wars, not from those fleeing from them. Money jumps all fences whenever it wants, and unlike boat people, it travels first class. So let’s for a moment put aside identities, laws, loyalties, affections, debts and other grievances, and look at a map of the Iberian Peninsula, topographical rather than political.
    The Pyrenees are a hardly passable barrier for both road and rail communications, high-voltage lines, pipelines, etc., which has for centuries forced almost all Continental connections to be channeled as close as possible to the Cantabrian or the Mediterranean Seas, a strategic factor that does not stand between Spain and Portugal, not even between England and Scotland. The ports of Barcelona and Bilbao are also vital terminals to be reckoned with. In those two ends of the Pyrenean isthmus, moreover, we find the largest industrial concentrations of the Peninsula. These territories cannot be left out of the EU or acquire the power to toll transit simply because they are sovereign to do it.
    I live in the certainty that we are all subject to collective brainwash in many ways, and this depends both on our sources of daily information, which we choose to strengthen our convictions, and on the selection of the historical data that we handle. Still, when we diagnose it in our neighbours, we look at them with pity, suspicion or contempt, as if they were sick, lobotomized, so to speak. And so they see us, hence the fact that nationalists, sometimes called “patriots”, believe that everybody is like them. “Internationalists” is sadly becoming an old-fashioned word.
    Some years ago, the world-famous Main Square in my hometown, Salamanca, was packed with people outraged by the “plundering” of the Civil War Archive, which most knew nothing about until part of it was claimed from Catalonia. Who would dare to say that they were being manipulated? I suspect the same thing happens to many Catalonians now. I see so many enthusiastic demonstrators of all ages flying their stellate flags, and I remember the times when the populace received the visiting bishops in Franco’s black and white newsreels. To me, flags look nicer when there are many, different and together.
    I confess I experience the same sensation with cartoons and identity: I let myself be taken by illusion, but not to the point of believing that ducks talk. Sometimes I show my own off and then I am ashamed of it, and I wonder what would have happened if I had been given a different name or adopted by a foreign couple after birth, for instance. Or if the Battle of Toro in 1476 had been won by those who were defeated.
    The right to decide, if not to divide, is so contentious that it may be demanded in any personal, family, local, provincial, regional, national or continental context. When someone does it to reach universal recognition, they should first make sure that they are not putting their foot on their neighbours’ right to breathe. Overdoing it a little, we could say that the more developed metropolis seems to seek emancipation from its backward colonies, which are now a burden and even “rob” them. No need to drive a lot through many Castilian villages in winter to discover that soon there will be no “oppressors” to have coffee with, or bars to do it, although there is always a chance of lynching a bull in summer, which appalls even many bullfighting fans.
    I wonder what we are waiting for to launch an Iberian entity (not identity) as proposed by José Saramago, a Reypública, as others advocate. For starters, school curriculums would not be any worse if a little Portuguese, Catalan, Basque, etc. were taught where there they are not spoken, instead of some ruler’s whims such as Entrepreneurship, Education for Citizenship and Religion, which end up becoming lesser, junk subjects, let’s face it. But what can we expect from Ministers of Education whose blunders cause embarrassment, or even worse, who insult some citizens to see if others cheer.
    We need to look at the map, I say. Not so long ago, European winds did us all good, but now there is a whiff of cheap cigars like the one you smell during “El Clásico”, where as soon as the first one shouts in the stands, there is general booing and whistling for red cards.

    • avatar
      Victor

      @jorge
      No one in Catalan demonstrations and independence movement is brainwashed. Most people came into that conclusion after many years of feeling hurt by Spanish media and institutions:
      – Just look at you map and look for the tool in the highways. You will see no tools in your Salamanca but you will see a Barcelona sorounded by them
      – Catalans wanted more authonomy within Spain and developed an estatut that was approved by people but banned by Spanish politized tribunal constitutional just for Catalans . Nowadays, Valencia has a copy of Catalan estut , and nothing happens but we Catalans face a sistematic reduction in our self government
      – then, we tried to set up fiscal deal similar to Basque Country is already using for over 30 years and the answer was no way.
      – after that, 80% of Catalan parliament called Spanish one to allow a referendum about independence and the door was closed again
      – the king of Spain is supposed to be also the king of Catalonia but he behaves like we were a rebel colony to be crushed…

      the only way to be free and return power to Catalan people is leaving Spain as fans an peacefully as possible.
      Then Jorge , when Catalans are free, we will talk again about international integration, and how to keep being part of EU.

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Dear Jorge, I appreciate your effort to pacify this issue and to bring some rationality into the discussion. Your dream is very nice, it makes for a beautiful romance, but it’s just wishful thinking. An Iberian entity? First ask the Spanish and the Portuguese governments whether they want such a thing. And then try to define it. For instance, where should the last decision on the laws lie? With the Spanish government, as it is now in Spain? With the Portuguese government, as it is now in Portugal? Or maybe with a Parliament in which the Spanish people will always have the majority, thus transferring the present Spanish organization to the new Iberian entity? The latter seems to be a fair option: people vote, and they are proportionally represented in the Parliament and the institutions. This seems fair, but it does not work. We might say that this is indeed the problem with Spain right now.
      Another consideration. You say that Catalonia and the Basque Country cannot acquire the power to toll transit simply because they are sovereign to do so. I do not understand your reasoning here. Catalonia and The Basque Country cannot, but France, e.g., can? (France is indeed sovereign.) Or maybe the sovereignty you are devising for Catalonia is different from French sovereignty? I really do not understand.
      As I see it, the simplest and most practical solution is not an Iberian entity but what we already have, a European entity in which there is room for the various European countries, including Catalonia, and in which no country can toll transit between them and the rest. That’s what internationalism is about: respect for the rest of the humanity (and a little collaborative spirit does no harm too).
      One last consideration. You are right that when some claim their right to decide in order to reach universal recognition, they should first make sure that they are not putting their foot on their neighbours’ right to breathe. However, also those who already have their right to decide should be careful not to put their foot on their neighbours’ right to breathe.
      Best wishes

  231. avatar
    Ernesto

    Well, most of you are not spanish and of course your opinions should be taking into account, but you forget the most important thing, catalunya cant decide itself because the country (spain) belong to all the spanish people, not only the catalans…that is really easy to understand, catalunya has never been a country (anyway they teach in the schools that they were but spanish conquered them..bla bla bla) imagine, you are from france and you have the region of paris and then the paris politics decide that well…we prefer to pay less, hehehe more money for us, not having supervision from france and during 40 years we will dominate the educaction inventing the history and after all saying that france steal from us, we are parisians not france!! and the rest of the stupid things they say, of course when you say this they say that is because of their catalan feelings hahaha so funny, it is only, only and only because of the money, no more.
    Catalunya is the region of europe with more autonomy, they have everything, they can handle education, national health system, highways…everything but the tax control is taking in the central goverment to share all the taxes and make all the country having the same elemental rights, but they want more and more.
    Please, 16.000 millions? hahah is much less, they have taken only one year, the one more interesting for them, is normally around 5000 millions, that is not so much if you think that the goverment should pay the army, the people who works for the goverment, the catalan police, and everything catalunya enjoy as well, please, are you british to allow plymouth politics for example to make a new country there? imagine that and you will understand this, spanish law is really clear, the country is for everyone and everyone will decide, in my case, catalunya is as mine as madrid is for the catalans.
    IS NOT FOR FELLINGS, it s for money and i want them out of spain, please, ASAP

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Very many thanks, Ernesto. Even though your post is full of contradictions, I very much thank you for wanting us out of Spain. Now I beg you just one more thing. Please try to persuade those who say that we cannot go away. – Oh, wait a minute, is it not you who says so? Please help me understand. You want us out of Spain, but we cannot decide to go away? Then you perhaps mean that you want to expel us? Yes, please, do that! I’ll be thankful for the rest of my life. We’ll erect a monument to you in every square in every little town.

  232. avatar
    Ernesto

    VICTOR, you are really funny man, maybe you can try to convence people from grecee but you ll never do the same with spanish people, your famous status was banned basicly becase it was against the law, you said in that paper that you were a country (you were stealing part of mine and yours then) and trying to make law paying less taxes, it doesnt matter the country, not even one have would accepted that, and of course the valencia one is respectful with the rest of spanish people, dont make people believe that spain is against catalunya.
    About basque country, they have a system which not contribution to the rest of spain because historical (real, not like yours) from many years, and of course spain respects that, then the catalans tried to be more handsome than none and dont pay to help poorer regions, so smart!!! the rest of spanish richer regions to pay and you dont, well done friend!!!, of course spanish goverment SAYS NO, no more to say.
    Plese dont try to sell the people your stories, you should be really happy to have people who dont really understand (it s normal) the situations, but your lies are not working with me.

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Ernesto, sorry but I have to correct you in at least one aspect: I don’t know if the Catalan statute was “against the law”, as you say, but the Constitutional Court had no power to amend it, according to the Spanish constitution, which states (art. 152.2) that a “Statute of Autonomy”, once approved and enacted, can only be changed by the means established in the Statute itself and through a Referendum. So the Constitutional Court broke the Spanish constitution that they apparently revere so much. Some precision is not bad when talking about serious matters.

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      Hello Ernesto,
      Summarizing what you say
      – some territories in Spain (that are not Catalonia) has ‘real’ reasons to be ‘respected by Spain’ regardless they do not contribute to the rest of Spain.
      – Spanish goverment is right when say just NO Catalonia becasue ‘Catalans tried to be more handsome than none’

      According to what you say, Catalonia must accept Spanish Law regardless it is NOT respected & NOT listened by Spain,

      Interestingly, when Reading your words, I conclude that you are the one making people believe that spain is against Catalunya.

      Thanks you for supporting Catalonia’s Independence!

  233. avatar
    Ernesto

    There Are no contradicionts, after 30 years calling us thieves (Without reasons) Being So superb thinking You Are better than the Rest of spanish.. It has been too much , And course trying to seem the Poor víctims against a tyranic country… Well, It s been working Good And You got everything , more than another región of europe, Anyway You were thinking .. Ok!! Now the final hit, spain steal From us, We want DO NOT PAY ( It Was the same thieves You have in your goverment) And We want to decide about taxes, Well, I ll decide to do the same , From Now on I ll not Pay taxes , And I ll decide how much should I Pay Oke? I want to be free! It Is my right !!!’ I can repeat , spanish people Is fed up with You , no more blackmailing us !!! We Dont want You to be spanish But We respect the laws And they say that You, And Cataluña have rights, for me You can go, And We ll See how It Is in catadisney!! In US And swiss they Are already worried .

  234. avatar
    Xavier

    Ernesto, please stop this nonsense about thieves and victims and haughtiness. Can we go away or can we not? The Spanish government and most of the Spanish parties say that we cannot. You also said that we have no right to decide to go. Now you say “for me You can go” (sic). Is that your last word? If so, and if you want us out Spain, why don’t you try to persuade the Spanish government? They are the only thing that is delaying our departure. If you do so, as I said, we’ll be indebted to you for the rest of our lives. And you will do a favor to everybody, because only this can possibly free us from all that rubbish about thieves and what not.

  235. avatar
    Ernesto

    We will See, the constituional court Is protecting the constituional rights of everyone And of course if You have a complain about something not constituional You can go And they ll decide ( You can say Ohhh the bad spanish , their courts Are against catalunya!! And Maybe someone From Japan will believe You, try It! ) your statut tried to give You more rights than Rest of spanish treating You like a God who Is better than Rest of people, of course they said no because It Was ilegal And that court can do It , Dont invent! This Is like if someone tries to get more than the Rest, the Rest said NO And then they try to seem the Poor víctims of the tyranic guys who Dont allow Them to be free, Please will be serious , not even a country Is agree with You !!! Are all of Them tyranics? Or Maybe Is because What You Ask for Is ilegal ? You want more rights And benefits than the Rest of spanish thats all!!!!

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      Dear Ernesto
      We pro-independence Catalans want no benefits from Spain at all.
      I do not see what benefit Catalans will get from Spain when being independent.
      We just want to be free from Spanish laws that according to your words Not respect and not listen to Catalans

  236. avatar
    Ernesto

    All that rabbish Is What You were saying 40 years crying And crying !! Please , I would like You to go because I cant deal more with You, but, i told You i respect the law And the law make all the people the owners, not Only One part can decide for something that Belong to everyone, That Is really easy to understand i guess. You have got And got more And more during 30 years but party Is over.

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      Let’s analyze you sense of law
      When you say ‘not Only One part can decide for something that Belong to everyone’ …Do you mean that when a woman wants to finish with her marriage, she must have husband consentment to be able to get a legal the divorce?

      As Ghandhi said ‘An unjust law is itself a species of violence’
      https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

  237. avatar
    Ernesto

    It is incredible,they try to sell the same shit to everyone. How come can You compare catalunya with france? Please We ve to be more serious, catalunya Is a REGION of spain And It has never been a country, never ever, none conquered Them, nothing. They ve the same laws than the Rest of spanish people with even more privileges, they have to follow the spanish law no more, spain Is not Tanzania We ve right laws And a constitution to follow, they think that the same lies Are going to work in europe but everyone Is smiling in their face. Spanish people Is fed up to be called lazies, facists And whatever if You Dont do What they want, Please Dont allow Them to convince You with the same stupid things And lies they ve used for years in spain.

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      Catalonia is a Region that wants to be a Free Country.

      Freedom for Catalonia

  238. avatar
    Demon Lee

    Reading through this thread, personally I think you are all incorrect and you are missing the bigger picture. Firstly, I am a registered International Photo Journalist and I travel around Europe frequently, I have a home in the UK and a home in Antas, Andalucia in Spain.

    Now, just like the UK, in it’s history, it has been independent regions, invaded multiple times by the hordes, became a unified country with a Monarchy, had a Civil War with a Dictator in control, then had a Monarchy and Democracy reinstated.
    The problem is for Spain, this new order was only 40yrs old in 2015 and it is my belief that the BIGGEST mistake made when this happened was once again giving autonomy to various regions instead of saying, ‘Look, we are all Spanish, we can protect your dialects, customs and traditions, but we must work together to build a better Spain.
    Spain’s political system is corrupt to the core, I have attended many elections in Spain and witnessed for myself voters being harassed by those standing for election whilst Local Police and Guardia Civil stand around and do nothing… to make matters worse, you don’t get to vote for a person you believe in, you vote for a group of people in a party and then, the votes are counted by those people that are standing for election – It beggars belief that their is no Independent National Electoral Commission that sets the rules and enforces them and ensures that voters can attend a poling station without being harassed. The people counting the votes must be independent and not those standing for election.

    In addition, every time a region or county gets more autonomy, the costs rise significantly to pay for all these little Regional Governments, so more tax has to be collected in order to pay their wages, their pension, and of course, the blatant fraud and theft of public funds we read about or see on the news nearly every day. Spanish Socialism has been a massive failure and you only have to look at Andalucia to see it in action. Due to the voting system, it is impossible to remove PSOE, yet despite it producing something like 40% of Europe’s Fruit and Salad, it still has the lowest GDP across Spain and gets very little from the Spanish Government to promote investment into the Region, decrease unemployment and raise living standards.

    What Spain needs is a single unifying party that wants to work in the best interest of Spain, not their own agenda and not that of their party. You only have to look at the current situation to see a disaster looming if PSOE manage to form a Government. All the forward steps that have been taken to get Spain out of recession and unemployment down will be lost with PSOE as they will just spend, spend, spend like the Labour Party did in the UK.. When I look at the Leader of Podemos and the way he dressed when meeting your King, it was a disgrace, he has no regard for Spain, just him and his little party, I would not let him feed my pet hamster, let alone have a voice in National Government.

    If you want change in Spain, it is no good complaining, you can ONLY change things from the inside when you are part of it, Podemos is not good for Spain, but more young Spanish people, especially from the rural arears need to understand that Spain is Europes 4th largest economy, it has strength and why on earth would a region of Spain want unelected Ministers in the EU telling them what to do instead of working with their own Government?

    The UK has had nearly 300yrs of a Constitutional Monarchy and Parliamentary Representation, I am not saying there are not faults within the system, but no system is perfect, you can only please some of the people some of the time, not all of the people all of the time.

    I love Spain, I love the history, the culture, the people – I would never refer to a Spaniard as lazy or fascists, but like every population, there are a minority that fit those categories in every country of the world. It is up to the Spanish people to show the rest of the world how great Spain really is… Forty Years is not a long time to have a democracy restored and to get on your feet again, it takes time, effort and a nation working together for the nation and not any one individual, group, race, culture or region – work to get legislation to reform the Electoral System to increase democracy, work to get legislation to reform the totally defunct legal system and do this together, as a nation. Once you can achieve all this and it might take another 10-20yrs or more, then the people in Spain can be proud not of only who they are, but also what they achieved together as a nation that learns to work together, is a strong nation and it does NOT need to be a Member of the E.U. as that will simply take more Sovereignty away from the Spanish Government with greater political and economic Union when you can stand with your heads held high as a strong, independent sovereign nation respected by the rest of the world.

  239. avatar
    Ernesto

    Dear Damon
    Thank You for the message, Well , to compare the situation in UK with the One in spain doesnt make sense, You can be sure that We will no have the problem in Cataluña because of the … Money , Please Dont believe his lies , Is not the felling, Is money.
    They try to compare the situation of scotland with cataluńa And You know that Is ridiculous, Is as Manchester wanted to live england because they Pay more… Crazy no more.
    They Are really superb, trying to be better than the Rest And telling everyday that they Are Paying our highways And hospitals (And they Dont !!!) meanwhile they cant Pay the chemist There because they spend the money in stupid embassys around the World to look as a country.
    They say they Pay more And always saying the same amount …16000 € million, finally the amount Is not more that 5000€mill ( And spain has to Pay army… And more things) And a small part Is to help another regions to get What they cant themselves ( same hospitals And rights … What constitution says)
    Finally , catalunya Is the REGION of europe with more autónomy, they have all transfered , thats Why kids think that spain conquered Them… They handle the education since 1978…. What can You expect!!! There Is no sense, i know Them , they Are going to press till the end, making to the goverment taking a decisión , a hard deccision, thats the point they d like to seem the Poor And oprimed country against the tyranics From spain ,i tell You today 15/2/2016.
    It doesnt matter What You explain Them , the view to save a bit € Is too much for Them .

  240. avatar
    Demon Lee

    The is a major similarity between Spain and the UK, the UK of Great Britain and Northern Island to give it the full and correct title, is just the main Islands, there are hundreds more that the general public don’t know about. When the SNP in Scotland demanded a referendum, the Shetland Isles, currently under Scottish Authority told them very clearly, if Scotland won Independence, then the Shetland Isles wanted to remain as part of the UK.

    The problem that Scotland has is historical and their history is blinded by lies. They were bankrupt, they had no money and went cap in hand to the English Government. As the Monarch was ALREADY King of both England and Scotland, two attempts previously to unite the Kingdom had failed, this time, in order to bail out Scotland, they had to agree to the Union… the bit that the SNP forgot to mention was this – they might have got Independence, but the English Monarch (Queen Elizabeth II) would have still been their Queen, it would have still been a United Kingdom, the only difference would have been that their Government would have taken control of Governing instead of having 59 Members of Parliament in the House of Commons.

    To make matters worse, all their figures on GDP etc. were based on Oil Prices from 3 yrs ago and we can all see what has happened since, it has collapsed, which would have once again effectively left Scotland Bankrupt again.

    For me, I would NEVER have permitted Wales, N. Ireland & Scotland their ‘devolved’ Governments in the first place, they are just another level of Government, eating up tax payers money and resources and this leads to major differences in the amount of money per head spent on these tax payers between the different states. This situation then creates unrest and dissent, the same problem Spain has – so you can now see the link?

    What these people forget, they are a NATION, they are a COUNTRY and no matter how much money a government collects and spends, it can NEVER be enough because individual people, organisations, political parties and regions only ever think about themselves and not their neighbours… they never look at the whole, only the part!

    Anyone that believes that Cataluńa can be independent and survive on their own is just plain crazy, the figures simply don’t add up and again I make the point, why on earth would the Government seek independence from Spain and side with joining the EU… Look at the mess the EU is in and the Cataluńa Govt. would LOSE powers to the EU Government having LESS control than they do now.

    In the current climate with the Mass Immigration problem across the EU, how could an Independent Cataluńa deal with that?
    The problem has been created simply because of Greed, Poor Education & Poor Leadership in Cataluńa. The people are being misled and conned on a massive scale – The Spanish Government should have been harder on them from the start – they broke the Constitution they all agreed to on forming the Cataluńa Government and received no punished, they are traitors to Spain and should be treated accordingly.

  241. avatar
    Ernesto

    100% with You , but they sell this like a free movement… The bad spanish Dont allow Them decide their future (sic) … The laws Dont Mind, Only money matters. And What they want the more Is the spanish goverment to punish hard because then someone can See Them like an oprimed country against the bad And tyrans spanish imperium. Thats all, You understand It perfectly but Is sad that still people Is believing their lies , they Are part of the core of spain since spain Is spain , they ve never had more autónomy than today And they Are using that Only to traicionate their country for a few €. Is as sad as that

  242. avatar
    Ernesto

    Simply, basque country And Navarra were a kingdom before ( catalunya not) And they join to Castilla And Aragón making spain with the privilege to conserv its “fueros” That Is what make basque country And Navarra to have that privileges ( And our constitution allows Them) they Are unfair but….
    Wikipedia Is not the best place to get the Info We need … Spain since the Roman invassion of spain Was treated as hispania already , And even if catalunya Was prior to spain ( Is not ) Does It make sense then ? Spanish flag Was different before , it Was the King Carlos V who change It cus the former One was difficult to See for the boats.
    Spain And france Are the oldest countries in europe

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      If you are happy with this story, good for you man!
      Enjoy your oldest country and let mine (Catalonia) free

  243. avatar
    Ernesto

    HahH dear vicblue
    Well done , Good trying !! When the things that Are coming From catalunya Are ilegal … Of course spain has to say a Big NO.
    Basque country And navarra have privileges writted in spanish constituion because It Was a kingdom which decide join to spain under that conditions , want You from a “condado” looking the same than Them ? Do You think people Is stupid? The lies about the spanish tyrans none get Them , but Good trying.

  244. avatar
    Demon Lee

    Spanish History Lesson from a British National…!
    In the early day, just like most former countries of the European Continent, what we now call ‘Spain’ was a conclave of many ‘fiefdoms’ or Kingdoms as the are known in modern language.
    (718AD – 1479AD)
    Kingdom of Asturias(718-925)
    Kingdom of Navarra (810-1789)
    Kingdom of León (910-1230)
    Kingdom of Castile (1035-1230)
    Kingdom of Aragón (1035-1707)
    Kingdom of Granada (1238-1492)

    In 1479 Territorial and religious unification of the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon by the Catholic Monarchs, and under the House of Austria (1516). The governments, institutions, and legal traditions of each kingdom remained independent of each other. Alien laws (Leyes de extranjeria) determined that the national of one kingdom was a foreigner in the other Crowns/States. Spain, in the 16th and 17th centuries, was the name of the Iberian Peninsula.

    1715
    De Jure – A Declaration of Rights – First recognition as a Unified Spain in Law

    1831 Dissolution of crowns and kingdoms and creation de jure, of the unified Kingdom of Spain.

    February 26, 1976
    Last significant change to the Democracy and creation of Autonomous states.

    So, firstly Spain is NOT one of the OLDEST European Countries, like Italy they were independent states and kingdoms prior to the unification in 1831
    It was because of this unification into a United Spain that the Italian Independent States became concerned that Spain might decide to advance on them and so 30yrs later, Italy succeeded in Unification with the exception of the Vatican City that remains to this day wholly independent.

    Whilst the UK is a United Kingdom of England & Scotland in 1707, the Kingdom of England was founded in 519. the Kingdom of Scotland was founded in 843, making them the oldest and longest established Kingdoms that still exist to this day with Denmark, Sweden and Norway following close behind with continuous Monarchies.

  245. avatar
    Demon Lee

    Vicblue, I hate to say this but what you write is fascist nonsense. I have never met a Spaniard from any other part of Spain that thinks less of those living in the Catalan Region, but I have met many Catalans who believe that they are somehow better and more deserving then the rest of the Spanish Population – Catalan as an independent state would not only fail financially, if it joined the EU it would have only 1 or 2 Representatives in the Parliament and would get voted down continuously and never be able to achieve anything – you would be swallowed up by larger EU Member States and get bogged down in Red Tape and Legislation whereas as being part of a Unified Spain, you have a voice.

    Why would you give up your representation in a Spanish Government only to then be controlled by an EU Government where you have no representation? If you want change, you have to be sensible and negotiate within the current boundaries of the Constitution of Spain and Catalan just as Scotland has done with the UK Government.

    Part of the problem is that Spain does NOT have a NATIONAL EDUCATION PROGRAMME with each autonomous Region setting its own agenda. This is not good for Spanish children in a modern world as they need to be educated as Spanish Citizens and not just regional citizens and any autonomous state that thinks they are ‘hard done by’ because some of their taxes help out poorer regions of Spain is not only a disgrace, you will feel even worse when your taxes go to the EU to help poorer people that are not even Spanish in other countries of the EU Community or do you forget the Billions of Euros pumped into Spain from the EU to help build your modern motorway network?

    If Spanish Juntas and Political Parties stopped thinking about themselves and started to think about Spain as a Unified Country, making sure that each Region was as economically effective as it could be to reduce the volume of poverty, create employment and prosperity, then you and others in the Catalan Region would be proud to be Spanish. I don’t refer to the matter as Catalans having been brainwashed, but I feel most have been misled, lied to and indoctrinated by a minority of those in power who want more power to steal more money to the detriment of the honest hard working Spanish Catalan Citizens.

    Catalan Citizens need to stand and fight not against the National Government, but against their own Local Government promoting this method of control and indoctrination of their people just so they can increase their power and wealth, leaving the average Catalan Citizen no better or worse off.

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      @Demon Lee,

      Why do you insult me?
      You say about my words that ‘what you write is fascist nonsense’ but do not quote any of my comments.
      You insult my words without any reason and accuse my ‘Local Government promoting this method of control and indoctrination’ without any prove.

      Just because you do not agree on my oppinion is enough to insult me and my goverment?

      I suggest you to base you comments in facts and avoid insults.

  246. avatar
    Ernesto

    Agree Damon , but since the romans spain Was called hispania because they found There a people fighting together , You can read a lot about that , Is not an easy issue , the problem Is that catalans think they Are special and Are more “históric” than Rest of spanish territories, i am From Asturias And We Dont think to be better or Having more history than none. They still think that spain conquered Them , 35 years handle education And making their own custom made history has had this final. And the sad thing Is that this Is Only because of the money using a bad moment in spain ( unemployment… Crisis… That Is own of traitors, no more)
    Can You imagine that Liverpool wanted to be a new country stealing You that part of england? Using lies ? Is really sad

  247. avatar
    raul

    catalans have a saying: “la pela es la pela” wich actually means theyd do anything for a peseta. The promotors of this independence are the señoritos, land owners and such. Regular people think that they will iherit something when the real owners will be the same. all this is BS.

    • avatar
      Xavier

      I know many promoters of independence and can tell you that most of them are “regular people”, some own only their apartment, some not even that, for they rent. It would be great if so many people were rich landowners!

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      Raul,
      If all the people in the video from the proindepence demonstration 2015 are ‘ land owners and such’, no wonder why we Catalans want to be independent
      https://youtu.be/wz0fQNy0Nvw
      LOL

  248. avatar
    Xavier

    Dear Demon, after reading through your long posts, I reach two conclusions:
    1. You may be an Englishman, but you look very much a PP supporter and an extreme Spanish nationalist who believes in an idyllic Spain (of course, provided that they do what you think they should do), and believes that Spain can do on its own without even the EU.
    2. I think you describe quite well the situation in AndalucIa, but you haven’t understood a word about what’s going on in Catalonia. I certainly agree that most people in Spain are not fascists, of course, but then, according to you, lots of people in Catalonia are just crazy, or many believe that they are somehow better and more deserving than the rest of the Spanish population, or we are all indoctrinated. There are certainly fascists and nationalists (in the worst sense of the word) everywhere, in Catalonia as well as in Spain. However, my impression is that most people, both in Spain and in Catalonia, do not believe they are, or their country fellows are, better than the rest of people in the world or in a particular part of the world. In what concerns Catalonia, the problem is that the Spanish political and economic organization is very different from what many Catalans believe they need and Catalonia needs. Nowadays nobody wants to impose on Spain an organization that the Spanish people do not want (or maybe only those who still strive to change the Spanish institutions and the Spanish constitution in order to make some more comfortable room for Catalans). Such an imposition has been tried for many years: several Catalan parties have attempted to be influential with the Spanish government and obtain some changes in the laws, some more autonomous power, or some reduction of the fiscal deficit, but it is very clear by now that this not really possible. This is why some of them have given up on such an ambition and propose to leave Spain and the Spanish people with the organization they wish for themselves, and give Catalonia and Catalan people an organization more in agreement with their needs and wishes. And then of course collaborate with Spain in the international organizations which already exist to that effect, or others that may be created in the future. It’s quite simple, I think, and not very difficult to understand.
    I personally believe that the time for insults and reproach is or should be past. This is what I was trying to tell Ernesto in a previous post, but apparently he still believes that we need more of those – and so do you, by the way.
    One last comment. I’d very much appreciate it if you didn’t care so much for us. You wrote somewhere “Catalan as an independent state would not only fail financially…” and so on. Seriously, we can do without your patronizing care.

    • avatar
      Demon Lee

      Xavier, firstly, I do not get a vote in National and European Elections in Spain, that is covered by E.U Law, so despite the fact I own property here, have to pay tax here, I get no say on who spends it and how. The use of the way you referred to me as a Spanish Nationalist makes it sound dirty to be proud of your nation, after all, all Spaniards should put Spain before any other country and their individual reason, as whilst you said you have read my posts, you clearly haven’t understood all the points I have made, but I will give a ‘pass’ on that as just as my first language is not English or Spanish, yours is not German or English.

      What is really insulting, is that despite he fact I pay tax in Spain and live here, you say I should not care about it and what happens – that is totally nonsensical, if we all took that attitude, no country could exist as it will go back to being little fiefdoms (Kingdoms) fighting each other before we found a way to live in peace together as a ‘country’.

      The very way you talk about the needs and the wants of the Catalans proves beyond all reasonable doubt, that just because you can’t get what you want, you want to leave Spain and go it alone… but that is not strictly true is it, you don’t want to go it alone, you want to leave Spain and join the E.U., one of the most corrupt, self indulgent, self opinionated organisations that we ALL as Europeans have to endure and it will get worse as they delve deeper into Political Union in which the Catalans will have no voice at all, a point you appear to have missed.

      Furthermore, I have no levied any insults at any Catalan Resident, just my experiences of working in the region over the last 30yrs, possibly longer than you have been on the planet…. I was in Spain when ETA were running their campaign of violence and terrorism – did it do them any good, NO.

      I lived in London throughout the IRA Bombing Campaigns, on 3 occasions coming very close to being blown to bits… did the IRA win, NO.

      The Scottish Nationalist Party, like the Catalan Region feel hard done by and so we gave them a Referendum, they lost, the majority of the Scottish People understood the Political and Economic ramifications of breaking away from the UK and then joining the EU – they were not fooled by the Politics, by the Bluster and not by the lies and the myths surrounding the issue.

      I would bet my live savings that if Catalan ever succeeded to Independence, it would fail. Not because I want it to, not because I could win millions of Euros at the betting shop, but simply because I have studied the Economics of the Region, the type of industries and business’ that creates its income and the size of the population that pays taxes and as someone with a Degree in Applied Math, I can assure you the figures being published, the figures being claimed how much better off the people will be doesn’t even come close to the REAL cost of Independent Rule.. lets look at what you would need.

      1. Your own National Police Force – to control crime and fraud.
      2. Your own National Air Force – to defend your air space and borders.
      3. Your own Navy – to defend your sea and your coastline.
      4. Your own National Education System.
      5. Your own National Health System.
      6. A National Government – likely to be on higher salaries than today.
      7. A National Pension Scheme.
      8. If you join the EU, your EU Membership fees (UK is $55M per day)
      9. You would Embassies or Consulates around the World.
      10. Unlikely to get NATO Membership.

      Now, under the Freedom of Information Act, find our how MUCH all this costs Spain as a Country today, divide it by 13, then treble it and you might get somewhere close to the cost to the Catalan Tax Payer.

      Unless you are involved in a National Government and see for yourself just how much it really costs to run an Independent Country with no other financial aid from your neighbours or a larger National Government, I think Xavier, you will be in for a nasty surprise – despite what people tell you, the Grass is not only not always greener on the other side, often it is longer so you can’t see the pitfalls and sharper blades that will slice you to ribbons.

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      Hello Demon Lee,

      I am happy you care so much about what is happening in Catalonia.
      You do much more than 99% of the Spaniards (living outside of Catalonia)

      My point is, what is the cost that actually Catalonia is supporting by not beign independent?
      A part from the famous fiscal imbalance between 16000 to 12000 mEUR /Y), I can tell you many key topics for you insight and calculation:

      – What is the cost for Catalonia for not beign allowed to fly anyware of the globe? AENA is controlling which countries is actually BCN allowed to fly

      – What is the cost of systematic mismanagement of key infrastructures in charge of the central government in Catalonia? some examples: obsolete local railways (Rodalies Renfe), more than 15 years underconstruction never finished highways like B-40 belt around BCN, N-340, N-2…, Ports ruled by central government against freedom of competition, systematically avoid investing in Mediterranian high capacity railroad for goods transport using EU railwidth..

      – What is the cost of an energetic model that supports the interests of major companies against enviromentally friendly self-production scheme?

      – What is the cost of a systematic ban of ALL laws approved by Catalan Parlieament?. Not possible to value, but it is a clear sign that no authonomy is allowed.

      – What is the cost of having your own language systematically misvalued by central goverment (Ex: Instituto Cervantes only supports Spanish, It is not a must to know Catalan to work in Catalonia for Spanish administration …etc…)

      The list is so long, … living in Spain is really hard for a Catalan working in Barcelona. No rights, all duties, no freedom, no future.

      You say that ‘if Catalan ever succeeded to Independence, it would fail’. In that way, could you give me please 1 single example of a country that decided to be indepenedent and after a time decided to rejoin to Spain because independence failed? Mexico, Chile, Argentina, Cuba, Peru, …

      The only solution is independence.

      Freedom for Catalonia

  249. avatar
    ernesto

    Dear Damon, do not try to convice them, they know perfectly that catalunya is part of spain as always it was, and of course all the spanish, catalan includes, own catalunya, they are not going to steal a part of my country.
    What they try is to get the most, but not to have better highways or hospitals not, of course not, what they want is to be the part of spain which pays no taxes, to have their own way to get more money dont paying as another parts of spain pay in order to allow the poorest regions to have proper hospital, highways…etc
    they are using a huge crisis in spain to theath trying to get more to them, is not about feelings, is about the dirty money, they forget that the 80 percent they make is sold to spanish people…and they pretend that we continue buying things and pay less taxes than the rest, for all of that they have no problems to make their custom made history books and trying to look as a country fighting against the imperialist and bad spanish guys…have you seen someone opressed in catalunya? i have seen opression in the owners of bussines who have to pay fines only to have their name writted in spanish!! that is crazy but is happening.

  250. avatar
    Ernesto

    Vicblue, You use the same lies of the Rest of people who wish independence From spain.
    The fiscal inbalance IS NOT 16000 millions €, You cant get the year You Pay the most And get It as the normal One , josep borrell ( he Is catalán) ministre of ecónomy in the past calculates the fiscal inbalance in 3000millions € ,then Please , spain steal From us? LIES, Madrid pays more for example.
    You complain about rodalies and Trains, highways… Well to Cantabria We Dont have AVE as You have many years ago, highways ? Cataluña Was the first region to have Them , Is insulting that You complain for that when You have had many privileges for décades.
    And to finish … Please Dont compare Cataluña with Cuba or Argentina Please, people Is not so stupid.

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      IT is such a privilege to be Spanish for a Catalan that we just want to run out of Spain
      About supposed great highways that we Catalans have… Are fully private and the most expensive in EU.
      We Catalans just make real jokes about it
      Lol
      http://youtu.be/jvDc7GlUOng

      Freedom for Catalonia

  251. avatar
    Xavier

    Dear Demon, there are so many incorrect things in your post that I will not be able to cover them all. I’ll do my best, though, tying not to be too long.
    It’s really a shame if, living and paying tax in Spain, you do not get a vote in National and European Elections, but it is the fault of the Spanish law, not of E.U Law.
    One can be a nationalist of whatever country without even being a national of that country. What sounds to me nationalist in your posts are sentences like “to show the rest of the world how great Spain really is”; “a nation working together for the nation and not any one individual, group, race, culture or region”, and once this is achieved [does it mean ‘once any dissidence is suppressed’ and ‘once we get rid of the various cultures and languages which compose ‘Spain’?] “then the people in Spain can be proud not of only who they are, but also what they achieved together as a nation that learns to work together, is a strong nation and it does NOT need to be a Member of the E.U. as that will simply take more Sovereignty away from the Spanish Government with greater political and economic Union when you can stand with your heads held high as a strong, independent sovereign nation respected by the rest of the world.” That brings me to my youth, as it is very similar to Francoist propaganda. The last part brings to mind one of the most characteristic features of Spanish Francoist nationalism, autarky.
    I don’t think that Catalans want to go it alone. Pro-independence Catalans are generally aware that the various peoples in the world have to work together and that being part of supranational organizations is good for everybody. Some do not, but they are a small minority.
    Yes you have insulted Catalans: ignorant, indoctrinated, crazy, not sensible, conned on a massive scale, and that because of greed, poor education and poor leadership (which means that we cannot even choose good leaders) are just a few of the qualities you have adorned us with.
    I did not miss your point about Catalans having no voice in the EU. I simply thought it was not worth because it’s so obviously wrong. Catalonia will not have “1 or 2” representatives in the European parliament. Now 8 representatives have been elected by Catalan voters, an independent Catalonia would have 15 or 16. This is not much, but it’s double than now, with the supplementary advantage that now some of them do not work in the best interests of Catalonia, but of Spain, whereas then they would all presumably work for the country that has elected them.
    In the same vein, I did not miss your point about the economical disadvantages of an independent Catalonia in the EU. You perhaps do not know that Catalonia has been a net contributor to the EU from the start. Always. Which means that Catalan people have always paid more than they have received from the EU. This will probably not change.
    Now you expand your argument by adding a long list of allegedly new costs of independence. I can be brief here. It has been estimated in about 35-39.000 million euro. Moreover, looking at your list, we already pay most of them, in addition to their Spanish counterparts. I now see that Vicblue has listed some of the costs of dependence, so I can skip this part.
    Finally, I have to ask you to leave aside ETA and IRA, which have nothing to do with Catalonia. I understand that you need to bring disrepute into the Catalan movement for independence, and you feel that your insults (remember? indoctrinated, crazy…) are not enough, but bringing those two terrorist organizations into the discussion is a nasty way of achieving this end.
    All the same, best wishes.

  252. avatar
    Demon Lee

    Xavier,

    You are incorrect, it is actually written in E.U. Law not Spanish Law. Only naturalised Citizens of a country can vote in National and European Elections, in Spain I have to live here 10yrs before being able to apply for Spanish Naturalisation and the Passport. The same applies if you went to the UK, France, Germany or any other EU Member State, the only variances set at National Level is the period of residence before you can apply for the passport of that country.
    Working together as a country is NOT a ‘nationalistic’ view, nor does it mean you have to remove Cultures, Languages etc. The UK despite being a ‘Unified’ group of countries, retains English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish traditions, customs and languages – what made the UK so powerful until WWI was the fact we were unified, we worked together as a nation despite our cultural differences. After WWI and WWII, many of the other countries that formed part of the British Empire wanted ‘Independence’ and as a thank you to them for assisting us defeat tyranny in both wars, negotiation commenced and the countries gained their independence freely and without conflict. Most of them decided to remain as part of the British Commonwealth and Global Trade Partners, some, even Australia retain QEII as their Head of State.

    It does not matter HOW many you choose to represent you, the number of Euro MP’s you get is solely dependent on the size of your ‘country’, you will not in a million years get 15-16 Representatives, Spain currently on has 54 MEP’s o represent the whole Spanish Mainland and their Dependencies for a population of 46M people, the UK only has 73 to represent a population of 70M people divided across England, Wales, Scotland, N. Ireland, Jersey, Guernsey, The Shetland Isles, Gibraltar, The Hebrides Islands etc.

    Now, these are the OFFICIAL figures of EU Spending in Spain and Spanish Contributions.

    Total EU spending in Spain – € 11.539 billion
    Total EU spending as % of Spanish GNI – 1.10 %
    Total Spanish contribution to the EU budget – € 9.978 billion
    Spanish contribution to the EU budget as % of its GNI – 0.95 %.

    The Catalan Regions pays a % of this 9.978B because ALL EU Countries collect their contribution via the IVA (VAT in England), but it otherwise makes no individual contribution to the EU and any that tells you this is a liar.

    Now, if you think independence is only going to cost the Catalan Region 35-39 million, they are also lying about these figures. You have a population of around 7.5M people, Scotland has around 5.5M people and their costs by the SNP were expected to be in the much higher range of £240-300M to address all issues relating to becoming Independent from the UK.

    My point about ETA and the IRA is that there are factions within any ‘Freedom’ Movement that are more radical than most and it is up to the people of Catalan to ensure such people don’t attempt to use the path of violence to make a point as it will destroy any support you have in other regions of Spain, such as the Basque Region, it is NOT to insult you or anyone else in the Catalan Region.

    To say someone is indoctrinated is not an insult, all forms of Education are ‘indoctrination’ as teachers are only permitted to teach children what their local or national education systems tells them to teach, this is the same in every country in the world and it is the reason ‘some’ grow up thinking they are ‘better’ than say someone from another country, still referred to as ‘Foreigners’ or as in Spain, ‘Extranjeros’… Spain a few years ago even withdrew the right of ‘Extranjeros’ to have ID Cards despite the fact we are supposed to carry them at all times, especially when travelling to other Member States.

    It is likely you and I will never agree on much except to say we can agree to disagree, however, having travelled around the EU long before the EU existed and during all the changes, as a Journalists I have seen and witnessed the changes for myself and anyone that claims the EU has prevented problems in the European Continent is a fool as there have been 47 Official Conflicts between European Member states between 1945 and Dec. 2014…!!!!!

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      Reading your words, it is clear you know nothing about Catalonia. Your oppinion is based on wrong parallelisms… That is life, I guess … But you should have been living in my country and run all the education levels as I did to able to say if there is any adoctrination taking place in Catalonia.
      My father is a teacher, my mother was a teacher and my sister is a teacher and there is no pressure from government to treat Catalonia’s identity in one way or another
      This ‘adoctrination’ topic has been raised by far right unionists they do not understand how can be possible that around 50% of Catalonia population is ‘suddenly’ pro independent…
      The reasons are many, but major one is just banning Catalan estatut (deal between cat and Spain) after accepting in a referendum

  253. avatar
    Xavier

    Dear Demon, I see. Everybody is wrong except you, we are all dupes, but you aren’t. Well, no. Again your statements are very obviously wrong. Just a brief reply to some of your points.
    Representatives: Greece (about 11 M people): 21; Belgium (10.5 M): 21; Sweden (9 M): 20; Bulgaria (7.7 M, very similar to Catalonia): 17; Denmark (5.4 M): 13; … Malta, with just 0.4 million people, has 6. Have you heard about the “Degressive proportionality” rule?
    On the economic side, two things:
    1. Your figures refer to Spain, not to Catalonia. As I said, Catalonia has always been a net contributor to the EU (yes, mostly through VAT). To be more precise, I now have the data for the period 2007-2013 before me. During this period, the average annual fiscal balance of Catalonia with the EU in the period 2007-2013 was about 0.7% of its GDP. This represents an annual contribution of about 1,350 million euros. It should be noted that this contribution is relatively the highest among the European countries (the Netherlands 0.6%, Germany 0.42% of their respective GDP).
    2. To get an idea of the economic implications of independence, you can have a look at the website of the Col·lectiu Wilson (wilson.cat/en), formed by a group of economists, professors at various universities, among them Harvard, Princeton, Columbia and London School of Economics.
    However, I wish to stress the fact that the economic advantages of independence are not the most important reason for me. I have written about them just because I had to reply to your obviously wrong figures and concepts in this respect.

  254. avatar
    Ernesto

    Xavier … Typical independent… He gets Only the figures which fit better … And he uses Only the pro independent economics…( paid From catalán goverment) … What can You expect ! All the figures they use Are going to be manipulated … Always , You can be sure. I quit Argue with Them , they Only use the worst economic time in spain to threath , no more , of course whit their invented figures ….

    • avatar
      Vicblue

      You say ‘manipulated’ ‘worst economic time in spain’ ‘threat’, ‘invented figures’
      I just say lets be Independent and see who is inventing what.

      Freedom for Catalonia

  255. avatar
    Xavier

    Ernesto, as I told Demon, your repeated statements that we are all manipulated, pro-independence people tell only lies, and so on (whereas you tell us the Truth) starts to become boring. Indeed I was about to terminate this discussion. However, there is something still worth pursuing, I think. According to you, the Catalan government lies about amount of the Catalan net contribution to Spain and even to the EU, and about the benefits of independence for the Catalan people. They even pay a bunch of respected professors of economics in several of the most respected Universities in the world to support the same lies. Now my question. Why are they supposed to do so? What would the benefits of such lies be for the Catalan government and for the promoters of independence (as opposed to the generality of the Catalan people)? I found this notion several times, not only in your posts and in those of Demon, but in several others higher up in this thread and elsewhere. I cannot seem to come up with any plausible answer and am really curious about it. You who seem to know, can you clarify this for me?

  256. avatar
    Ernesto

    Xavier, I know that money Is the core issue here, Well , do more know those PAID profesors ( From abroad most of Them) who get Only the figures You give Them ( of course not taking into account the Rest..) do they know more than the minister of ecónomy ( borrell, he Is from catalunya ) ? Maybe they know more… Borrell sais that Your fiscal inbalance Is not more than 3000 millions € per year , That Is Only the 25% What You And your Well teachers say. For me You can go , no worries, will See Is catadisney so Nice Is the life , be careful norway!!!

    • avatar
      Xavier

      Pity you didn’t answer my question. I had some hope of finally knowing the reason why, according to you, they lie, what benefit lying about the benefits of independence would bring them. In any inquiry of this kind (who is lying?), the first question is “cui prodest?”, but you prefer repeating, quite stubbornly and simply, that they lie. Well, as you wish…

  257. avatar
    Demon Lee

    Xavier & VicBlue – as you will be aware, the corruption in Spain, from local level to national level Government is almost as bad as that in the EU Government and if you deny that, then you will deny everything that is said in this forum.

    I am 54, been around Politics a LONG Time and was once a Regional Chairman for the Conservative Party in the UK and my area I prefer to cover for Press work is that of Fraud, Manipulation and the indoctrination of the masses.
    I hold from UK Universities a B.Sc in Applied Math & English Lit & Lang, an MBA(Hons) in Business and a Ph.d in Psychology. In addition to those, I also hold a number of Examinations in Bookkeeping/Accounting/Economics and Forensic Accounting Analysis.

    I know when published figures have been ’embellished’, in the same way that many countries ’embellished’ their Economic Figures in order to quality for European Membership… and if you think the individual in the Catalan Region will be financially better off, you are sadly mistaken. The figures produced by the SNP in Scotland were so fanciful, had the won independence, they would not be bankrupt due to falling oil prices and the continual financial fiasco in the EU created by the Eurozone and countries being unable to fix their own exchange rate to promote exports….. the British Pound has been falling recently and British Manufacturers are over the moon as it means our goods are cheaper to export – hence the Government is NOT interfering with it unlike the German and European Central Banks with the Euro.

    The ONLY reason I do NOT want to see the cessation of the Catalan Region of Spain is as follows;

    1. It could lead to the collapse of the Spanish Economy currently in recovery.
    2. It will NOT make the individual Catalan any better off financially.

    It is not worth quoting figures about representation in the EU for other countries as all are treated differently contrary to popular belief and the real power in the EU comes from the UNELECTED mob that make all the Legislative Decisions to pass down onto the MILLIONS of EU Residents whether we like it or not.

    If you do not believe in indoctrination and manipulation, you need to look further in the methodology of National and Regional Education, don’t believe all you read in the so called ‘free’ press, never take for granted what you are told by EU Ministers, paid economists and others whom have a direct interest in separating the Catalan Region from Spain, as the money will line THEIR pockets and not that of the ordinary man and woman in the street going to work every day only to see another layer of Government taking taxes from you.

  258. avatar
    Ernesto

    Xavier , the benefits for the catalán goverment lying about the issue Are clear , trying go get an unfair way to pay taxes pressing with independence, Not Being Judge for the spanish law after robering tons of money , making a new country to make What they want …following Only the laws of the new country ( laws they ll make ) … We Are not so stupids.
    If they Are able to say that You Pay 16000millions € of inbalance ( Is not more than 3000) What can You expect ?
    Thanks

  259. avatar
    Vicblue

    As you can read on Page #5 of North American White House document, North America has a much clear vision of Catalan selfdetermination than EU itself.

    http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA14/20160315/104672/HHRG-114-FA14-Wstate-WilliamsP-20160315.pdf

    “(…) Interestingly, despite the potentially destabilizing impact of this ongoing dispute within Spain, the domestic legal debate may be largely irrelevant to the EU. If Catalonians eventually choose independence, they will seek international recognition as an independent state based on the will of the people, not on provisions of the Spanish constitution. As the International Court of Justice (ICJ) noted when reviewing the legality of Kosovo’s declaration of independence, there is no international legal bar against a sub-state entity declaring independence.

    Without a coherent and cohesive approach to these movements, the EU has placed itself in an impossible and precarious position. If the EU were to consider recognizing Catalonia, this action could encourage further referenda in Belgium, Cyprus, Slovakia, Romania, and possibly Italy, which are all grappling with their own self-determination movements, raising opposition from these members.

    However, if the EU denies recognition to Catalonia, this may generate a frozen economic conflict in the core of Europe that would drain political capital and economic resources from an economically fragile Spain. This frozen economic conflict will also create a “state,” with the Euro as its currency and seven million Catalonians that could retain their EU citizenship while living outside the EU.

    Furthermore, in many European states, non-recognition would be perceived as anti-democratic. Such a move would be extremely difficult to justify, given that nearly three-dozen states have achieved recognition by EU member states in the past twenty-five years. (…)”

    Eventhough EU policy is unfair towards selfdetermination, as a Catalan I am still proeuropean, but living in a free independent Catalan Republic .

  260. avatar
    Xavier

    Dear Ernesto, sorry for this long silence (a long time of extremely tight schedule). You are maybe not around anymore, but just in case, I’ll post my reply.
    I’ve read attentively your reasons to explain why the Catalan government is lying to us about the benefits of independence. Just two questions and one correction:
    First question: can you tell me who in the current Catalan government has robbed “tons of money”?
    Second question: don’t you see that your “reason” applies to every country in the world? “make what they want … following only the laws of” their “country (laws they’ll make)”. You could say the same thing of Spain, for instance: they want to have their own country to make their own laws. Well, and then?
    The correction: it is not only us who say that the fiscal imbalance amounts to 16.000 M euro. A PP candidate in the December elections said their his reason to refuse Catalan independence was that they would loose (guess how much?) 16.000 M euro!
    Best

  261. avatar
    pardobazan

    Utterly astonished by the ignorance of many of the comments I have read here. Catalonia doesn´t need “independence” because it is already “independent”. This “autonomous community” (like a US state) controls everything: education, health, public administration. You live in cataluña, you pay your taxes and want your children to study in public schools in Spanish. Impossible. The secessionists forbid learning Spanish in public schools- only catalan or any other language. No Spanish. (catalan is spoken by a couple of million people – Spanish by more than 500 million – which is more useful?) Seceding from Spain would be the worst thing that could ever happen in catalonia. The people of catalonia are being dragged by idiots who have been brainwashing them for over 30 years to the brink of chaos. The secessionists use the evil and sinister techniques of nazi goebbels to rewrite history and deceive the people of catalonia into thinking that Spain is oppressing them which could not be further from the truth. Catalonia has always been pampered by Spain -even by the dictator Franco. The catalonian secessionist government spends all of its share of the national budget on catalonian embassies!!!!!!! (none of the other “autonomous communities” have – or need!!!! embassies abroad), subsidised pro secessionist “public”tv and newspapers and censorship. If you have a business and give it a Spanish name, you will be fined by the catalonian censorship dept. Of course, you can call your business by an English, French, Chinese or Arabic name – that is OK with the secessionists who HATE Spain. Why? Impossible to understand, but the truth is that hate is the central part of this movement. catalonia´s debt is in the billions. The EU refuses to buy their junk bonds. Catalonian companies are fleeing from the region – too unstable and uncertain. Spain´s central govmt. has been giving them money from the FLA or Autonomous Commnity Liquidity Fund to pay for public servant salaries, socialized medicine, pensions, pharmacies supplying pharmaceuticals prescribed by public health. catalonia has devoured more than 60% of this fund. The game is to use the defenseless citizens as hostages hoping they will blame the central government (españa nos roba) when the truth is that the catalonian separatists have robbed their own citizens (scandals of corruption: el 3% and the pujol family (the worst thieves in the history of Spain) – the other 16 autonomous communities keep their budgets balanced and only go to the FLA for small amounts on special occasions . People of catalonia, PLEASE!!! React NOW or go into the abyss with the abominable secessionists.

  262. avatar
    Peter Wiers

    I’m not from Cataluña, nor from Spain. But why would civilised people in Spain, or anywhere else in Europe, not be allowed to democratically decide how they want to govern themselves? Isn’t that what democracy is all about?

    • avatar
      Adrian

      Because not every group of loons can decide over night to be independent.
      What”s next?
      500 million independent sovereign homes?
      Or maybr my apartment building wants to be “independent” too.

    • avatar
      Carmine

      Governments tell us we live in a democratic state but in reality all governments curtail our freedoms under the guise of “legality”. Let’s not forgot the laws were originally borne out of a sense of morality. Where is the morality of suppressing the region of Catalonia’s desire to be independent especially when they have so much history of their own.

  263. avatar
    STELIOS ROUCHOTAS

    If any region of any European country should break off because it is richer or because it is more productive, soon no European country will remain intact.There will remain a patchwork of mini-states loosely associated.But ‘power lies in unity’.Definitely some people in Catalonia want to launch their career in expense of Spain and by splitting a country that has been united for centuries.They are mere traitors and let us all hope that they will fail in their goal.

  264. avatar
    Stan Squires

    I am from Vancouver,Canada and I supports Independence for Cataluña.The people of Cataluña should keep fighting for their Independence.What the Gov’t of Spain is doing in Cataluña is reminiscent of what General Franco did in Spain in the 1930s.The police in Spain are fascist and should be condemned.Independence for Cataluña, Death to the Gov’t of Spain.

  265. avatar
    Gil Almario

    What i do not understood is if truth be told how you’re not actually much more smartly-liked than you might be right now. You’re so intelligent. You know therefore significantly in terms of this subject, made me individually believe it from numerous various angles. Its like women and men aren’t interested until it is something to do with Woman gaga! Your individual stuffs nice. At all times care for it up!

  266. avatar
    Giordano

    Poor Catalunya wants her own Brexit based on false promises and unrealistic hopes. It is also mind boggling how the Spanish government has been mishandling the situation. Instead of just letting them have their referendum, which would not pass they just messed things up even more. And now the whole thing is a shit show especially after these ridiculous sentences, something out of a Latin american telenovela. At the same time, Catalunya is shooting herself in the foot big time. Even if eventual becomes an independent state it will be a fraction of its former economic glory with tourism their main source of income and fleeing population to the rest of Europe. We’ll see…

Your email will not be published

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.

Notify me of new comments. You can also subscribe without commenting.

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

More debate series – Arguments for and against Catalonia independence View all

By continuing to use this website, you consent to the use of cookies on your device as described in our Privacy Policy unless you have disabled them. You can change your cookie settings at any time but parts of our site will not function correctly without them.