turkeyWe’ve already looked at the tricky question of EU enlargement on Debating Europe (see here and here), but most of our focus was on Eastern Europe and the Balkan states. Today, we’ll be looking specifically at the controversial issue of Turkish EU membership. With Cyprus due to take over the rotating EU Presidency on 1st July (and with large deposits of natural gas recently discovered off the Cypriot coast) are Turkish-EU relations set to be sorely tested in 2012?

For a basic introduction to some of the issues related to Turkish membership of the EU, see our infobox here.

Recently, we spoke to German Green Member of the European Parliament (MEP) Franziska Keller, a member of the delegation to the EU-Turkey Joint Parliamentary Committee (JPC). The EU-Turkey JPC is composed of an equal number of MEPs and Members of the Turkish Grand National Assembly, and it meets twice a year in Turkey and the EUWe asked Franziska Keller for her reaction to a comment from Ari on Debating Europe suggesting there could be “some grey area between [non-membership] and full EU membership” as a possible solution to an issue that has been dragging on for decades.

Well, at the moment Turkey is already in a sort of ‘grey area’. The problem is, what rights do they have in such a relationship? For instance, Turkey is part of a customs union with the EU, must apply the EU’s common external tariff to third countries and has to adopt a large part of the Acquis Communautaire [i.e. EU law]. Turkey complies with the rules, yet has no formal say in the law-making process. You can see that such a ‘privileged partnership’ is not to Turkey’s advantage as a permanent solution.

We also spoke to German Liberal MEP Alexander Graf Lambsdorff, a member of the European Parliament’s Committee on Foreign Affairs and a founding member of the German-Turkish Foundation. We had a comment from Nikolai arguing that the EU needs to start communicating more clearly on this issue. Nikolai argues that “Clearly stated SMART targets, openly and repeatedly declared to the general public of Turkey… will keep expectation levels realistic whilst keeping momentum should the public be behind the policies advocated.” What did Lambsdorff think of Nikolai’s comment?

Well, I would ask Nikolai what does he mean by such ‘targets’? Are these just benchmarks? Policies that need to be implemented by Turkey? Or are they clear target dates on a roadmap to accession? In terms of policies, yes, I would agree that communication has not been very good. But for target dates, I’m strongly opposed to this approach. It would only increase  pressure to rush the process and risk raising false expectations.

There is clearly no political consensus on this issue. As Nikolai points out, there is waning enthusiasm in Turkey for membership. However, I think it’s important not to look at Turkey exclusively through the lens of accession, but more broadly look at how we can cooperate in foreign policy, energy policy and other areas.

We’ve had a couple of comments sent in about the question of Cyprus. Sotiris, for example, sent in a comment arguing that Turkey cannot be a member of the EU as long as the question of Cyprus is unresolved.

The number of sticking points is much larger than just the issue of Cyprus. Of course, I don’t see a solution anytime soon for the Cyprus issue, which is maybe a lack of imagination on my part, but it’s difficult to be more positive. As well as Cyprus, though, there is the particularly bad situation of human rights in Turkey; more journalists are in prison there than any other country, including China. There is also a political culture not conducive to pluralism, though I hope that constitutional reforms improve the situation. Then, of course, the final sticking point is that only 20% of EU citizens are in favour of Turkish membership. Therefore, we’d have to have a dramatic shift in public opinion.

Finally, we spoke to Nevin Öztop from Turkish LGBT organisation Kaos GL. We caught up with Öztop when she was being presented with the award for her organisation’s work by Solidar at their Silver Rose Awards ceremony in March. We received a comment earlier from Sam criticising MEPs for not doing enough to support LGBT rights in Hungary, so we asked Öztop what the EU can do to support human rights (including LGBT rights) in Turkey without being seen to interfere too much with Turkish sovereignty.

What do YOU think? Should Turkey join the European Union? Or could there be a ‘grey area’ of half-membership that satisfies all parties? Do you think Turkey will still want to join if it is left waiting for too long? Are you confident that the major sticking-points to Turkish EU membership can be resolved? Or do we need to consider an alternative? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below, and we’ll take them to policy-makers and experts for their reactions.

IMAGE CREDITS: CC / Flickr – World Bank

224 comments Post a commentcomment

  1. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris

    I will just point out a few things:

    a) Whenever this debate comes along, it somehow always ends up a fight between Greece and Turkey.. Well I am sorry, but Greece and Cyprus are the least of Turkey’s problems in joining..If the big powers of EU/Europe (Britain, France, Germany) together with their satellites (Austria, Belgium, Holland etc) say a big YES to Turkey, there is little Greece can do to block Turkey’s entry for good.. We will be forced to compromise one way or another, both sides…

    Turkey’s entry to the EU is beneficial for Greece, as it will lift a lot of weight of our shoulders, like in defense and dealing with illegal immigration, as Turkey’s borders will be the forefront from then on..

    If the big powers want Turkey in the EU 100% then the only thing Greece can do is to act up a little bit like Slovenia in Croatia’s accession to gain some guarantees and secure some of its interests.. So the Turks should not turn their anger towards Greece, as we are not the biggest obstacle..The Germans, Austrians and French are at the moment, so try to focus in turning their minds around…And stop bashing Greece and Cyprus…

    b) On the Cyprus issue, well Turkey is mainly on the wrong. Even if we accept that the invasion was justified and they were right to do so, the prolonged occupation is not.. They should have invaded to protect their fellow Turkish-Cypriots ( if that was the real reason) but then leave it to the UN to deal with all the violations that Greece or Cyprus may have done to trigger their actions.. And let them face punishment..

    But their actions in the recent developments of the Greek-Cypriot and Israeli gas exploitation plans, unveil the true reason of the invasion. Geo-politics!! Of course we should not forget the role of Britain in all this mess, and their divide and rule politics that created this mess and the India-Pakistan and Palestine-Israel mess. And they hold a small part of the island still…….

    In order to have any solution at all, the Turks must recognize Cyprus as a state and withdraw all troops from the island. Allow the two sides (Greek and Turkish Cypriots) to find a solution between them with the involvement of the UN.. I have a Greek Cypriot friend here in Dublin, who is a good friend of a Turkish Cypriot…If people were allowed to solve their differences on their own, without the meddling of power mongering elites, things would be much better…The Greek Cypriots though will never negotiate anything while the troops are still present on the island…

    Once this is done, and some other reforms are implemented (like the freedom of press issue that some other mentioned above) I really do not see why Turkey should remain outside the EU..They are European people to me, ethnically, culturally and socially… They belong in Europe..

    But if the big powers decide NOT to accept Turkey in the club they have created, then we must give them a clear answer and perhaps renegotiate their relations with us.. If the Norwegians and the Swiss are part of the EEA/EFTA, then perhaps Turkey should join these two and so the Turkish people can enjoy all the rights and have all the obligations that the Norwegians have… In that way Turkey remains outside the European Parliament, it is not having a voice in EU/Europe (happy Germans and French) but its citizens enjoy all the benefits of EU membership ( happy Turks), apart for voting for the EP (that is not very democratic, but if the Norwegians are happy with it, then oh well). Unless of course immigration from Turkey IS the biggest issue for Europe..

    c) Perhaps the Turkish elite are happy for things to stay as such..They receive money from the EU as a candidate member state anyway, so why would they want to stop being one? Norway pays to be part of EEA, Turkey does not have even THIS obligation… So are the Turkish politicians lying to their citizens about their true intentions? Perhaps all this is just a theater for our eyes only, and their politicians, with our politicians haven’t the slightest motivation to solve the issue? Turkey receives money from Europe as an EU candidate country, it stays outside of EP and the decision making lobbies, it does not contribute to the EU budget like Norway does and it has already a customs union with the rest of us..So our politicians are happy…Are we…??

  2. avatar
    Muhammed Hansrod

    Turkey is democratic because it decided to Europeanise. True, there’s still work to be done, but religious prejudice must never barre it from entering a diverse European family of nations. If Turks consider themselves a part of Europe, then why the hell shouldn’t the rest of the world just accept their decision? No racism for my generation- we’re not old school. We don’t think like King Louis XVI.

  3. avatar
    Łukasz Wizła

    Mmm I don’t think so… Bah i don’t think their prime minister really wants to join EU.

  4. avatar
    Rainer Saad

    I think EU is expanding too fast. Hold your horses and wait till current member states evolve more equal.

  5. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    There are people who don’t want Turkey to join under any circumstances and those who want it to join so badly that they pretend Turkey currently meets all the criteria right now even though its values are not European. I say if Turkey can meet the same criteria that is expected of any EU member, they are welcome. But as long as insulting “turkishness” is a crime and freedom of the press is fantasy, as long as adultery is a criminal act, as long as Kurds don’t have the same treatment that all minority groups do in EU member states, as long as they consort with Iran and have border disputes with Iraq and Armenia, they should be held back in the integration process. We need some real commitment from Ankara about secularism – It is not a problem that Turkey is Muslim and most Europeans are Christian. The problem is that Turkey, especially the ruling party, has a very different view on the level of influence religion should have over the state.

  6. avatar
    Thibaud Macken

    We should first make the EU work decently, and then think about expansion.

  7. avatar
    Vasile Alexandru Melesteu

    It is about time that EU opens up.Turkey deserves to be part of it, if not, than we haven`t learned nothing from our history full of conflict and petty misunderstanding.This is an age were we should look up to the future together.

    • avatar
      cassandra cross

      YES Turkey should join the E.U. it is so unfair. we are having other country’s come in i.e Russia, who are sending arms over to Syria, this is not right. also Turkish people work very hard, and if our country was like Turkey,they only have there own people work for them.we should learn from this, our own government is in the mess we are in now.NO JOBS TO GO AROUND!! why is this? turkey is a good country,why can Turkish Cypriots) be in the E.U and Turkish people cant,?? it is time to let Turkey into the EU

  8. avatar
    Theodore Windrose

    ahh, I forgot, welcome to Europe, the smallest place on earth for the largest ambitions :)

  9. avatar
    Martti Immonen

    EU should continue with the mission and uniting Europe by accepting Turkey in. Turkeys economy is far better level than in most of the current EU countries today. Leaving Turkey outside would be the biggest mistake EU can ever do.

  10. avatar
    Anne Matthews

    Turkey should join the EU when it fufills the requirements for human rights and helps find a solution to the Cyprus problem. It would be fantastic for the EU to include such an economic power into the group.

  11. avatar
    MandyandPj Leneghan

    Well Turkey appears to be meeting all the requirements laid down by the EU’s masters based in the US and that of the master’s trojan horses here in Europe, They are obeying ze orders, isn’t that all that is required these days? How much lower do they need to stoop?…pj

  12. avatar
    Sunny Cvitkovic Anderson

    No, not because I have anything against Turks, but because EU should be economically and culturally harmonic. I think letting Serbia to be candidate is very wrong to..
    Jovan, who is that WE you talking about? You are not part of EU by country of origin and USA where you apparently living has nothing with decisions who should or should not be in EU?

  13. avatar
    Melesteu Vasile Alexandru

    It is about time that EU opens up.Turkey deserves to be part of it, if not, than we haven`t learned nothing from our history full of conflict and petty misunderstanding.This is an age were we should look up to the future together.

  14. avatar
    Ivan Burrows

    Referendum for Great Britain so we can leave your nightmare.

  15. avatar
    Carlos Ferreira

    I don’t think so… (I have nothing agaisnt turkish people) Culturally and on human rights concern they need to improve a lot. And I’m not gonna talk about politics and religion… ufff

  16. avatar
    Albert Saxén

    ya, except there r no masters in the US.

  17. avatar

    Turkey is almost a paradox, on one hand it is one of the most important NATO allies and on the other hand our greatest fear Islam is rooted strongly in the Turkish society. And the last time i checked Islam was taking territory back instead of giving it away we should be glad if eventually Europe + Turkey don’t become Arab provinces themselves.

  18. avatar
    Karel Van Isacker

    I would say that instead of inviting Turkey to the chronical ill EU, we will have to beg. After all, Turkey would offer a huge market to the EU while the tensions with Greece could be softened. But what does Turkey get from all this? The EU is after all in a deplorable state.

  19. avatar
    Karel Van Isacker

    But Serbia should join as quick as possible as they do need help…

  20. avatar
    MandyandPj Leneghan

    You would think so Sunny, that EU membership has nothing to do with the US but emerging evidence is suggesting otherwise. Whilst the tag is US, I see that this evidence is actually pointing to those that control the government of the US and now the EU as well as the individual member nations within the EU, two of which have had their parliaments openly usurped by what I see as a global criminal network, a network that the EU was supposedly set up to protect Europe from. As it is impossible ‘for the people’ to deal with these issues since the EU has been successfully ‘occupied’ and exists in that state, the only way to deal with the sovereignty issues is to get out of the EU which would allow citizens to have a good look at what their own local politicans are up to, many of whom are using the EU as cover. I am very surprised that the German people are still accepting this situation since they are going to end up the patsy (again). As for Turkey, they have been placed in an almost no win situation, if they do not comply they face regime changes and partitions. They need another Ataturk. That is what the picture looks like to me anyways. It is a pity that many people do not question the system a bit more and have a peek behind the propaganda, it is not as cosy or black and white as many would think…pj

  21. avatar

    Thanking you for this important debate about Turkey. As a turk i would not like my country to be part of EU. The things in our side have been changing positively anymore . Turkish politicians neither care about eu membership nor majority of population. we used to ask for it. i wish, we terminate our membership process soon.

    • avatar
      Gokhan Semiz

      I don’t agree with you, like turkish minister of eu relations (egemen bagis) said, beyond the whole economical, cultural or human rights benefits of the eu, eu is the biggest peace project in the human history. Before the eu, europe had centuries of war and 2 world wars cost millions of life. Ever since the eu established, there is no war in europe. I wish this project will expand and make the all people unite in the future.

  22. avatar
    Jan Dik

    As a Turkish citizen,it is my conviction that Turkey should not become a member-state of the E.U. because of many factors,such as economic and religious ones!Conversely,I would like to ask another question whether the countries such as Greece,Spain and Portugal deserve the E.U. or not!!!

  23. avatar
    Andreas Agathokleous

    @Jan Dik i like how u live in Athens but at the same time u don’t seem to like Greece.

  24. avatar
    Steve Patriarca

    Will Turkey end the hostile occupation of a fellow EU state? Will Turkey open its airspace to all EU airlines? Until Turkish troops leave Cyprus and Cyprus airlines is permitted to overfly Turkey then it is practically at war with the EU – hardly a candidate for membership.

    • avatar
      Felipe Alkan

      Turkey is a part of NATO and she will vote out Cyprus until they accept Turkey to EU. But if Greece or Cyprus support Turkish accession to EU and Turkey becomes a part of EU, then greeks and greek cypriots can move and live freely in Turkey(Pontus, Constantinopolis etc.) and Northern Cyprus. So be aware what you guys are missing!
      Fighting only causes harms to each sides for nothing.

  25. avatar
    Andreas Agathokleous

    And NO, Turkey is not ready to join a EU whilst its main policies are to expand its influence in the Middle East and threaten other smaller states such as Cyprus.

  26. avatar
    MandyandPj Leneghan

    Don’t forget folks, that Turkey is a member of NATO…pj

  27. avatar
    Kimmo Linkama

    There are two sides to the membership of any country:

    1) Political. Who wishes to become a member and why. Conversely, does the club want someone as a member? In other words, members of a club should have similar values, otherwise there’s only going to be splintering, which does not unite, but rather separate and discriminate.

    2) Economic. As long as the EU doesn’t have its house in order in its present composition, admitting new members should be filtered. It looks to me some candidates want membership to get financial help, whereas the original idea behind the Union, as far as I’ve understood, was to increase wealth in member states and boost their economies and international competitiveness instead of becoming a distributor of welfare subsidies.

    Concerning a ‘grey area’, it already exists. Think Switzerland.

  28. avatar
    Efrossiny Exarchoulakou

    turkish people should decide whether they want to be included in europe or not however they are welcomed i suppose from all the rest european countries

  29. avatar
    Anastasia Kamenou

    Turkey is not ready to join EU. Turkey has not fulfilled important obligations concerning human rights especially those having to do with Kurds and Cyprus. The last threats that Turkey has verbally but also with actions expressed concerning Cyprus right to explore its exclusive economic zone prove that Turkey still acts like a regional invader. Despite this, I agree with some opinions expressed above, that Cyprus and Greece are the least of Turkey?s obstacles for assession. Big EU contries have many to loose if such a huge country with so numerous cheap labor enters.

  30. avatar

    Turkey is not ready to join EU. Turkey has not fulfilled important obligations concerning human rights especially those having to do with Kurds and Cyprus. The last threats that Turkey has verbally but also with actions expressed concerning Cyprus right to explore its exclusive economic zone prove that Turkey still acts like a regional invader. Despite this, I agree with some opinions expressed above, that Cyprus and Greece are the least of Turkey’s obstacles for assession. Big EU contries have many to loose if such a huge country with so numerous cheap labor enters.

  31. avatar

    The EU is already overextended with respect to its capabilities and resources. To talk about Turkey in such a situation is more than illusive. The idea of inviting Turkey for membership was part of the same false policy decisions made more than a decade ago which lead to the current €uro crisis. Hence, if the EU wants to survive it will have to reconsider both decisions. To consult the taxpayers in the netpaying member states if they are willing to shoulder further burdens will be unavoidable. The €uro crisis is not over yet and it has the potential to blow up the whole project, if political measures suggested do not get sufficient legitimacy (referenda etc.). This also counts for the membership of Turkey.

  32. avatar
    Nikolai Holmov

    As Mr Lambsdorff made an attempt at responding to a comment made by me some time ago, I shall be gracious enough to clear up the ambiguity he believes to be contained within that comment.

    At present I would not be advocating time lines for accession, which as he rightly points out leads to terrible decisions. Bulgaria and Romania are a case in point where time rather than due diligence and meeting criteria have given the EU numerous problems.

    I would be advocating time lines for the EU interlocutors to get their communication in order when engaging with Turkey. As he points out, the communication with Turkey as far as the EU is concerned has been “not very good.”

    “Not very good”? That is an understatement. That points a veneer of professionalism on it that on the whole has been completely missing.

    You have the European Commission, the European Council and the EEAS, none of which have been clear, honest, forthright and robust in their dialogue with Turkey.

    Now with 27 member states there will obviously be different views. The UK FCO openly advocates Turkey joining the EU. Germany is on record as not being at all keen.

    From a German perspective I can understand that with a less than integrated large Turkish minority. From a UK point of view I can understand that also, as it adds one more member state which can derail EU policy the UK doesn’t like.

    Turkey has one of the best Foreign Ministers (Mr Davutoglu) in office today. I rank him up with Carl Bildt, who is probably the most energetic and clever EU foreign minister currently holding office.

    Turkey is therefore quite well aware of those in favour and those against its eventual (or not) EU entry.

    The measure of Turkey’s real desire to enter the EU will therefore be gaged by the amount of lobbying it does with those currently against its eventual accession, the deliberate bilateral extensions it makes to those nations (outside the auspices of the EU umbrella) via FDI, shared R&D etc with those specific nations.

    As I wrote before, and as was commented upon in the main article above, the desire for EU membership is on the decline amongst the Turkish population.

    That should be a particularly discouraging sign for those in the EU who already suffer from a truly massive and ever increasing legitimacy gap between the existing EU populous and the Brussels bubble.

    As others have rightly pointed out above, should the EU ever come to a consensus on Turkish membership, it may well be a case of having to persuade Turkey to join rather than Turkey kicking the door down in its eagerness.

    If I were in the EU think tanks, I would be looking very closely at the Black Sea nations and looking at the ever increasing ties between Russia, Turkey, Ukraine, Greece et al.

    The existing BSEC institution could very well become a major political and economic “block” with very little additional political will or expense.

    Half-hearted and badly conveyed overtures/rebuffs to Turkey via what has been admitted above by an MEP as “not very good” communication will lead Turkey to find regional partners with whom it can project its influence without Brussels.

    The EU is already losing global influence, if it is not careful, the rest of the world will think nobody’s home even if the lights are still on!

  33. avatar

    If Turkey would have joined the EU in 2004 together with the post-communist Eastern Europeans it would have strained EU budgets (structural funds etc.) in the financial period 2007 – 2013 with 125 Billion €uros. These figures are from a German study (Gefra). Now, just think about the current situation of the €urozone. Who could afford Turkey’s membership? The membership of Turkey would need a complete different EU!

    PS.: Even without being a member Turkey receives billions of €uros from already heavily burdened European taxpayers as preaccession help. In the 2007-2013 period so far more than 3 Billions. So much about the “strong economy” of Turkey as claimed by our media.

  34. avatar
    Peter Schellinck

    Not only should Turkey join the EU it ought to be a member of the East Asian Summit. The Turkish foreign policy to connect Europe with Asia would make more sense than ever, thereby strengthening their strategic depth by many measures. Both the EU and the EAS are a strategic reality and manifestation. East Asia is now comprised of some of the most dynamic economies and militarily powerful countries in the world; whilst Europe has tradition however lost sense of direction.

    The question is if Turkey can be considered a “European state”? A small part of the country, about 5 per cent, is in Europe with about 8 per cent of its population. Hence, if Turkey were to become a full member some modification of Article 1 of the proposed constitution for Europe, which states: “The Union shall be open to all European States” would be required. One should point out at this stage that an exception to this rule has already been made in the case of Cyprus, which is geographically in Asia. Turkey has a population of over 70 million, making it larger than all existing EU members except Germany. If current population trends continue, it is likely to overtake Germany later this century and could reach 100 million. As such, given current voting arrangements in the EU, it would have a very powerful voice.

    Another issue is one of culture and involves the contentious question of to what extent there are a “European identity” and a common purpose that extends beyond economic co-operation and success. There is such a thing as a “European identity” that is relevant for the Union of nations that we have today. There should be no reason why the Union should not be extended to any neighboring state that is willing to accept the basic rules of membership, as laid down by the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993.

    Europe is quite rightly an increasingly multi-cultural society. While we support this evolution as a necessary part of modern society, we all know that it can be the cause of problems, particularly in socially deprived areas.

    There is a strong argument for supporting a secular state embodying a moderate Muslim faith in an area of the world so beset by religious extremism. Making Turkey a prosperous secular democratic nation can, it is to be hoped, provide an example for others in the region to emulate. The free movement of people is a key element in the structure of the Union, as we know it. With current population trends, it is likely that the large economies of Western Europe will depend increasingly on immigration to meet labour requirements of the future. Here in Belgium, Turkish representatives in local governments are today a fact.

    Europe, together with Turkey can establish a poly-ethical democracy truly gelling West and East. History has a few tips and the future needs blending or else bleading.

  35. avatar
    catherine Benning

    Why my previous post was excluded from this thread is an enigma? It was not rude, didn’t swear and was entirely respectful. However, the answer to, if Turkey should be accepted in the EU, is a big NO! Could that be why it was felt objectionable?

    Here is one reason.


    When is Europe going to clean up its act?

    Allowing States who practice hatred toward women is encouraging brutality. You cannot address it by making it acceptable because simply by contemplating this as a suitable society for us to support and welcome is outrageous.

  36. avatar
    Debating Europe

    Hi Catherine,

    We didn’t moderate any previous comments from you in this thread, and there’s nothing in the spam filter. Our apologies, perhaps there was a technical problem submitting the comment?

  37. avatar

    Dear Catherine,

    Whatever you have said about Turkey’s hatred towards women might be “true”; as true as it is true in any other European country. But please know that the video is not in Turkish and the writings are not in Turkish, so by deduction, this video doesn’t support your “big NO!”

    My opinion, Turkey should not enter the EU for their own good.
    I don’t believe they belong there.

    • avatar
      catherine benning

      @ Mehmet.

      As far as I am aware, this forum is mainly in English. If this VT had been in Turkish not many of the readers on this blog would have understood it.

      If your point is, this VT was not made in Turkey, what difference does that make? The facts are this was a eye opener to the world on the treatment, in countries who claim to be Islamic, toward their women. And it not the Western way of life or expectation. And if this is accepted it will create unrest right across the EU.

      So, you are simply splitting hairs. But as you felt this an unfair view of Turkey, lets have another look.

      We have already imported far too much of this horror from cultures that have moved from their homeland to Europe and instead of adppting a European lifestyle, bring barbarism with them to pollute our environment to the point of creating unrest.


      Why should Europeans be subjected to this betrayal of women here? Why are we expected to pay our taxes at a rate high enough to cripple us all, to use it in this endless empty pit of trying to stop this human barbarism entering the modern world. It is Turkey’s responsibility to use their taxes to put this right and have it sorted long before they make application to be part of the EU. And not try to jump into Europe in order to make their rich richer whilst we suffer in real terms for it.



      However, this is not the only barrier to Turkey becoming a State of Europe, as you put it so well, they are better off remaining within their own social structure, because although you can lead a horse to water you cannot make him drink.


      The honest reason Europe is being pressed relentlessly to open its borders further, is to enable the US to strengthen its bases in that country at our cost. Let the Americans make Turkey a US State, and let them support that nation by giving them American passports, en masse, as US citizens. In other words let them put their money where their mouth is. See how the American public goes for that.

  38. avatar

    Turkey should join, but first Russia, Irak and Turkey need to find a solution for Kurdistan.

    Otherwise, bombs may explode in Brussels.

    Conflict states should not join!

    • avatar
      Felipe Alkan

      Cyprus had border problems but they joined.

  39. avatar

    No, Turkey should most definitely not join the EU. Ethnically and linguistically Turkey is an Asian country. In any case, Europe has already spread quite far enough eastwards.

    The EU has grown bigger than it should have done, so let’s not make the mistake of spreading ourselves even thinner.

  40. avatar

    Turkey is not Europe, you’re mad to think so. It’s culture and history are not european.. It is a islmaic giant, with the religion heavily integrated into its politics. Anyone whos looking for a quick solution of the eurozone crisis and thinks towards Turkey is out of their mind, the country is 3rd world although in a better financial situation then some of our current european member states that is no reason to give accession as we MUST consider the long term consequences.

    Yes a small percent of Turkey is considered to be in Europe but bare in mind that it was stolen. They are a Asian country, not even the people to me look european. Call that discrimination if you like, but we shouldn’t label our union the European Union, a suitable name would be Eurasian Union. If we let Turkey in, why don’t we let Israel in too?

    The Uk is already having enormous social problems and integrating problems with its current muslims. If we look at Pakistanis and any form, who disrespect and reject to follow our culture. They say so themselves, they want shirah law in the UK, demanded Halal meat which is already sold everywhere. I’m sorry i can’t see any decent reason for a middle/lower class person to accept such a ludacrious idea. The only way it would be beneficial is, for politics and businesses. The ordinary person would suffer, and economy in such ways of more unemployment, culture sacrificing, and potentially big social problems.

    TURKEY IS NOT EUROPE I REFUSE TO RECOGNISE IT, IT’LL NEVER BE EUROPE TO ME. NO MATTER HOW BAD USA WANTS IT TO BE FOR IT’S OIL MOVEMENT FROM THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE MONEY IT WOULD SAVE. The USA needs to stop sticking its nose in other peoples business. Keep Europe for the Europeans, if not, i will happily encourage and support the UK’s bid for a exit.

    • avatar

      Who gives a damn what you recognise you ignorant racist moron. Turkey doesn’t need Europe and the majority of the population doesn’t care about joining this racist Christian club.

    • avatar
      Debating Europe

      @DnB Please avoid generalising about the beliefs and opinions of an entire ethnic group. You cannot say that Pakistanis “Say so themselves” that they want “Shirah law” (sic) because there is no single representative or group that talks for all British people of Pakistani origin in the UK.

      @Ish We will be installing a plugin to “flag a comment as offensive”. In future, this can be used to bring something to the attention of moderators. However, please avoid using insulting language towards another user, even when they have broken the site’s ground rules.

  41. avatar

    I think that Turkey joining the EU will just add more problems to a plain weak european union. Im sorry but from my humble and non-expert point of view the constant expanding of EU is just its path to decay. EU is an old and tired organisation and cannot keep on expanding like its doing today. Turkey, to speak honestly, is just democratic on the papers but I personally DO NOT WANT a country where so much violence against women takes place, not to mention all the other issues, like immigration rates that will rise and so on.
    The main reason I do not want Turkey in Eu is becaue of its hard line with Cyprus, they never admitted they are dead wrong, they never admitted that their occupation in the north part of the island is not legal, they claim the false. They never reckonized the reality of the Armenian genocide, never apologized, nothing. Their pozition is not like German’s in the end of WWII. Moreover, EUROPE should ask with a referendum its citizens if they want or not the entrance of turkey because EU is not certainly a Muslim Organisation and make Turkey join in will open the doors on the east’s muslim world, and they would want to join also. Another thing is tha EUROPE is a western organisation and turkey, geographycally speaking, belong to the East. Turkey is not in europe so I do not see why inclunding a non-european country inside a european organisation. Politics only are interested in the economical benefits they would be of turkey comes in but we cant focus just on economy and oversee all other matters.
    Also Turkey had always had very bad foreign relations with the neiboor country Greece, and is surely not promoting the great EUROPEAN VALUES as long as Greece is concerned.
    European expanding and integration and so on is just bullshits. The multicultural framework has failed and eurpe must face this fact and must LISTEN to its citizens. Do they want a weak organisation keep growing like this ???? ASK US, if you are really democratic, you EU Politicians must aks us about this matter.
    For me if I was ever being asked about Turkey I say NO. And from what I know Turks do not want to enter EU either. Ask them also, ask if the turks want or not to join the EU community. LET PEOPLE SPEAK NOT JUST ECONOMY!!!


    • avatar

      Just curious, if Turkey is not in Europe maybe you can tell us Where Europe starts in the west and where it ends in the east. Turkey is in Europe a small portion but hey nevertheless it is in Europe. There is a natural canal called Bosphorus that devides Europe from Asia. The European side has 5 cities with population of over 8-10 million. I am not debating if Turkey should join EU or not I am just clarifying that Turkey is in also Europe you like it or not.

    • avatar

      Just because they are in or partially within the catchment of europe does not give every country the right to be in the EU, there are still some worries about Turkey although i know many are hypocritical and based upon members own levels of expectation, some might say selfish levels, but with the current economical climate it would be folly not to be super cautious, especially when people start seeing economical migrants with little or nothing to offer the country they choose to move to,They get angry, they might get on their high horse.. A point in question is Poland, how many polish immigrants have you experienced knocking on your door and upon opening you get a badly written letter in english begging for money with a pretty feeble sob story, looking further up the road you see the rest of the family plying the same methods, did they come here expecting a better life?, money for nothing?, maybe a job?, this runs alongside the backdrop of those who bring genuine skills but it is a large number that bring nothing but financial burden to an already overly populated country… a small island compared to many other countries in the union or maybe that does not matter because it’s our christian duty, i’m not a christian and i don’t consider this countries misplaced idealistic nanny state mentality does any good to either side but create more poverty rather than financial growth to coming generations, i’m not a little englander either yet we only have to look at the state of the EU and why it happened. In the UK we have so many illegal immigrants the government have to pluck a figure out of thin air because they have not a clue!, we hear of an amnesty because it’s impossible to track them… this kind of carelessness when it comes to immigrantion is an example of the error of political correctness when walking on eggshells upon the subject of the racist card, it’s not about racism, it’s about economics, even human rights goes out the window with this current government when it comes to their feeble and precious policies.

  42. avatar

    @Tamer, Europe and Asia (Eurasia)- geographycally speaking- is one continent. But this cannot change the fact that Europe and Asia were being ”separated” because historically we’re not all the same people, we have not the same culture or costumes or even the same languages. Thats why Turkey does not belong- not even if they would die to be part- of what defines “Europe” through the centuries. We’re Indo-european descendents while Turks are Mongolian descendents, the 90% of european people speak Indo-european languages (except Finland and Hungary and small minorities across Europe) while Turks speak Uro-Altaic language…we have different traditions, costumes, habits…
    And I, personally, and most people like me (and politicians too) dont care at all if a tiny part of Turkey belongs to the West….
    But this is not the main reason why Turkey must remain outside. Ive already explained why this country is not ready and never will ready to join the E.U. (both economical and cultural reasons involved).
    Try to reckonize and apologize for the crimes against humanity that your governments have committed (greeks’, armenians’, kurds’ genocides and the recent Cyprus-issue), try to intall a real and effective system for combatting corruption and violence against women (statistics about this is just buffling), try to respect human rights (not just on the papers) and maybe in a hundred years you’ll have a chance to join in. Except the fact that statistics also confirm that Turks do not want either to join E.U.

  43. avatar

    @ Catherine Benning

    Please excuse my sentence structure and my spelling i am in a rush i could have waited to reply at another time but your close mindedness comment disgusts me. Excuse te harshness of my comment, though at least i have the decency to excuse myself.

    First off those video’s you have uploaded Have alot of descrepencies. At 3.15 in one of the video’s you posted the translator goes onto say we stone them with rocks for 20mins e.t.c. But really the man starts off by saying “these used to occur alot, but now” and it cuts off there.

    Another Issue is the fact that the people in the video’s are not Turkish, but rather Kurdish this is clear in their accents and the fact that they are holding up a pkk flag (a far left kurd group which is also considered a terrorist organisation) .

    What you are saying above is utter crap. Crimes against humanity happen in ALL countries including those within the EU , a prime example would be this i recently took an overseas trip to Europe from Australia and the sight i saw in Rome was this , i watched a lady hand a man a baby whilst she went through his pockets taking everything and grabbing the baby and running. It wasn’t once i saw this kind of thing, the majority of pick pockets i saw used young children, is this humane ? Is it right to use a child for crime ? Meanwhile this is Happening in rome, pisa, Paris.

    The reality is in rural parts of any country traditions will not be worn out by modernisation as modernisation will not reach rural areas there are still be-headings in Japan and there is still Cannabalism in Papua New Guinea, you cannot judge based upon a minority.

    You have your own issues withinthe EU with humanity, before opening your mouth or typing on a keyboard look in your own back yard.

    Personally ( i am not Islamic or a Christian) i think you are having a slightly racist “dig” towards Islam and you have a misconception of the religion, TURKEY IS NOT A BACKWARDS COUNTRY like most islamic states of those in the middle east, ISLAM is a peaceful religion for those that follow it the way it should be followed. Do not portray all Muslims as extremists as Muslims do not portray all christians as extremists eiter.

    And last of all i do not understand why Turkey still wants to join the pathetic and incompetent EU anyway, they already have trade rights within the EU and at the moment, the whole of Europe is in a world
    Of financial struggle and they won’t be out of the woods for a long time to come!

  44. avatar

    No, Turkey shouldn’t and will never enter the EU. Socially, economically, perhaps even racially it will never be ready. The EU as a whole is already failing anyways; huge economical problems, with huge social problems (specially in the Western Euro countries) caused by the epically failed “Multicultural Dream”, an idea which has always disgusted me like communism. It influx of millions of immigrants happened secretly, without a referendum for the people, asking: “Would you want a multicultural country/EU?” which would have the exact meaning as “Would you want millions of non-Western immigrants flowing into your country?”. The obvious result would have been an astonishing amount of nays, either way this question was phrased! Multiculturalism isn’t needed in the slightest and doesn’t work in practice. You must be pretty ignorant to think that encouraging more births and breeding, perhaps with financial bonuses, isn’t better than that Multiculti crap imposed on the people of the West and West only!
    As a result homogenous countries like China are rising like ever before, and the US and UK falling deep down.
    Result of this evil Multiculturalist crap, which happened unconstitutionally. Thats what needs to change.
    Oh and did I mention economics?

  45. avatar

    It is funny to see this Negative reasons of all people whom against Turkeys EU Membership. Soo many people are talking like they know something about it. The only thing they know is Armenians, Kurds, Cyprus.. But they just know the name of them, behind of the stories they have no clue… I am sorry to say that but Turkey and Turkish people already understood your main reason that makes you negative against Turkeys Eu Membership, So you do not need to hide behind of those 3 article anymore.. Islamphobia!… By the way i want to add some more About Kurdish people and the human rights in Turkey. How many rights i have They have the same… They can be president, they can be priminister. But what about in your countries? I think you dont really talk with immigrants IN EU countries. Or maybe you just dont want to talk with them.. it is because you dont like to see them even in your countries. This is not what i am thinking. This is what happening! To be immigrant in EU worse than being a deer in a forest with full of lions around..

    So lets make the score equal first, then we can talk about human rights.. c yaa!

    • avatar
      Peter Schellinck

      It’s not all negative. Hopefully you’ve seen my comments as I’m for the Turkish EU membership and much more.
      On the other hand don’t forget that current estimates suggests that there is approximately 9 million Turks living in Europe, excluding those who live in Turkey. In my home town of over a quarter of a million inhabitants, in Belgium, a Turkish local is standing for mayor in the upcoming October elections. And this is not the only case in the EU. Look at Germany! So, in fact the rights of immigrants are well established and, providing integration is taken serious by the immigrant, an important local roll can be played by any person if wanted.

  46. avatar

    Turkey should join the EU.Because Turkey has Mediterranean and Modern Islam culture.Turkey has ok economy better than many europe countries.But first Turkey must solve their problems ”KURD” and ”TERROR”….

  47. avatar
    James Breen

    Turkey should learn from the PIGS – Portugal, Ireland, etc. Does Turkey really want to surrender its sovereinty to Europe? That is the only way the EU is going to hold together, and even that is in serious doubt now. It wasn’t all that long ago that inflation in Turkey was running at well over 60%. Have the root problems been properly resolved? Or would the same inflationary problems arise again, so that Turkey needed bailing out? No, Turkey has never been a part of Europe except geographically. Turkey’s true self belongs where it always has been – in the Islamic world of the Middle East and Central Asia. And now that Russia is no longer a threat, perhaps closer ties with that country – and no longer with NATO – is the way forward.

  48. avatar

    @catherine benning

    You are 100% wrong. First of all the documentary you posted takes place in Northern Iraq, the language, the people, the customs/traditions are 100% different from Turkey’s. Yes, Turkey doesn’t have great human rights compared to other European countries, what do you expect from a nostly muslim country that got all it’s human rights less than 100 years ago? And yes womens rights aren’t as good as they are written, but 15 years ago Turkey had it’s first woman prime minister “Tansu Ciller”.

    You say Kurds don’t have rights in Turkey? Then how can they have every single right Turks have? How is there “terrorism” towards them while each day young turkish soldiers die because of the terrorist group “PKK” that is trying to make a kurdish state within turkish borders?

    Do you know what happened in the Armenian Genocide? Many turks were killed by armenians too, the armenians tried to make an armenian state, how come nobody brings that up?

    How can Cyprus join the EU while it had border problems + it is COMPLETELY in asian borders but when Turkey wants to join these suddenly become problems?

    Saying Turkey is not European is also embarassing to say. The ottoman empire ruled 1 third of Europe for centuries, the Turkish culture made what Europe is today. Around eastern europe you will see drink and eat many things that are turkish origin, vice versa for Turkey too.

    Please get your facts straight before writing such nonsense.

    EU should stop this silly wait that has continued for ages. Even if Turkey completes everything they need to complete they will still come up with another excuse. It’s still an embarassment that Bulgaria, Romania and other eastern european countries can enter the EU even though they also have serious problems concerning human rights/ economics.

    It’s also more embarassing that Turkish citizens have to go through a humiliating visa process “Schengen” that is only issued to 3rd world countries even though Turkey is a secular, economically strong, NATO/European Council member + a EU candidate country, but Mexico, a country that has serious drug issues has the right to travel Europe visa free?

    All these little “cyrprus/ genoice/ geographical” excuses aside, doesn’t anyone think there are double standarts? The only reason turkish citizens don’t want to be apart of the EU anymore is because they are being used, treated like 3rd world country citizens by the EU. I mean “grey zone”? What a humiliating thing to say, are turks on a lower level compared to them?!! If you don’t want Turkey in your “cool kid” group then just say no, there is no need to make this silly process even longer.

    Sorry if my comment is a bit loud but there is a huge lack of knowledge when it comes to Turkey, and please get your facts straight before posting some documentary about womens rights in northen iraq…

    • avatar
      catherine benning


      From where I am coming frmom, it is you who is 100% wrong. And dreadfully so.

      There is no union in Turkey or with it’s many neighbours. You wrote this yourself. Where on earth do you get the idea that as part of Europe this trend with the Turkish people will end? Turkey is a very different nation to the majority of the EU States. It would be utter madness for the EU to accept another vast muslim country into its borders.

      tyhe basis ethose of the Turkish society goes against all Europe stands for , on every level.

      Europe is only considering this oxymoron because of pressure from the USA whose only objective in this is more nuclear bases to surround the Middle East. If Turkey wants union with the West, their best move is to become a part of the USA. That is where it appears their military objectives lie. Not with Europe or the European people.

      Do you think the USA would consider Turkey as a friendly State within their union? Or, more importantly their people would vote for it?

      I don’t think so. Why therefore, do you think the European people should accept such a unification which goes totally against their best interests, financially, socially and morally.

    • avatar

      Dear Catherine

      The way you defend your ideas seems so ambitious but in the same time it shows you just have ideas without having any deep knowledge about the subject!

      Saying that there was no union in Turkey is just a second-handed information. When i look at the map, i can’t see any separated part within the Republic of Turkey’s borders.

      But if you talk about the separatist Kurdish movement and you think it is quiet enough for a proof to stand up for being against Turkey’s possible membership of EU, then you are deceived with your own arguments which is not quite enough because it is simply not.

      If separatist Kurdish movement, aka PKK, is a reason for not to be in EU, than would you please tell me why UK, Spain, Italy and French are still there?

      Do you know anything about Corsican nationalism which depends on to make island a free state from France?
      I think you’ve ever heard something about some northern Italians want to leave from south part of the country because they think southerns are just a load for themselves.
      These ones are naive examples.
      Now would you please tell me the differences of PKK from ETA? ETA fought an armed and terrorist war against Spain for the independence of Pais Vasco and its minority rights for years. What would you say a possible Catalan independence? And how about IRA? Do you really think these movements really pass over? Do you know Scotland will hold a referandum in 2014 for departing from UK? Is this the union that you are talking about? Look at Belgium and the way its perfectly running unification:)

      And please do not blame U.S! Please don’t be the one of those kind of people who always blame U.S. when they are clumsy to solve their own problems! Is that respectable EU so helpless to just sit down and listen and then do what US told them to do? I don’t know but you say so…
      And now irony begins because you also cannot imagine a EU without US. How did lovely EU ever exist after World War II? You know the answer… Because US told you to do that! She said “if you don’t listen to me then no money from me to you folks:)”… Then poor and damaged and needy Europe decided to unite. Open your books up and find the real reason of Marshall Plan! Now after all this, accepting Turkey into your club just because US asked for, wouldn’t be so hard for your pride… If we are talking about US, then this is realism…

      But you know it is not just US. It is… it is mostly you! And all those people as you in EU. You just flounder with all these rubbish and non-sense arguments that you put forward. Be honest and give me the real reason. Give us and give all the world the real reason. Be brave. Let all the world see your face after you hide behind those ideas. Say you don’t love muslims. You do not care human rights when humans are muslim. So far you hate them all. We all know that and you know that too but it is too hard for you to tell it. And let me add some more: You will make muslims are the new Jews for Europe if you can.

      So dear, will you really hold on your ideas about humanism or will you cut down the trees and fire the ovens, again?

  49. avatar

    @CEM. It is interesting how you call Kurds and Armenians issues as problems caused because these nations want to create an independent state within Turkey and on the other hand you call Cyprus issues as border issues. Why don’t you call Cyprus issues as problems caused because Turkey (i am not sure about genuine Turkish Cypriots) want to create an independent Turkish state within Cyprus. It seems that European Countries recognize that little Cyprus excuses as you call them, is a prove that Turkey is a military invader that holds with the power of guns occupied 40% of the territory of European country, Cyprus. It seems that European Countries and the United Nations recognise Turkey as the country that forced 200 thousands Greek Cypriots refugees out of the homes and after 38 these people cannot return to their own property.

    • avatar

      Dear Anastasia,

      You are totally right about the Greek Cypriots who lost their homes and farms and roots… But when will you notice that Greek Cypriots are not the only nation on that island. And have anyone ever told you about Turkish Cypriots who also lost their homes and lands and their roots while they were living in the south part of the island? So if you say, “well, Turkish army had landed and made island divided?” and then i’ll tell you it was not an invasion nor an opration without a reason. If even it’d been so, do you think, U.S and other European countries would have done anything and sat in silence? Yes they kept silence because the operation of 1974 was a rescue plan and it was internationally right. They rescued Turkish Cypriots from being murdered and raped and tortured and exile… After the operation, both sides has never been agreed on a new order for the island. Turkish side wanted to change the constitution but Greek side insisted to keep eveything same. But the old situation made war and obviously it was going to create a new conflict after the withdraw of Turkish army. So they had no chance but to stay on the island for protecting Turkish people.

      And do not ever think that we do not desire a peaceful island and a reunification under the equal terms. Because this situation made us lose billions of money. But Turkey will always take that risk of losing another billions of money on the purpose of keep on protecting all those Turkish kins…

      That is that!

  50. avatar
    Prima Pistachio Scarpia

    Turkey is not a European nation, neither geographically, nor historically/culturally. The hard fact is that the only relationship between European nations and the Ottoman Empire has for centuries been one of siege and occupation.

    The above does not by any means diminishes the importance of the Ottoman heritage nor the cultural richness of what today is Turkey (much of which is attributed to the multi-ethnic environment of the Empire and which has been limited considerably after the birth of modern Turkey-and yes this was done through ethnic cleansing as well).

    Nevertheless, there is a very clear distinction in what European heritage means and what Turkish culture is. (Culture/heritage is not wearing European shoes and driving a Mercedes).

    Anyway, it all boils down to what the EU wants to become eventually. Do members want a loose free trade zone? OK, change the name to something like Eurasian Free Trade Zone and Turkey fits in fine.

    Do members want to achieve full monetary union with further fiscal integration. Then sorry, current conditions do not allow for further expansion. Again conditions permitting, change the name to something else and invite Turkey.

    If however the EU is going to promote further social and cultural integration (as it initially intended), then no, Turkey’s accession makes absolutely no sense. After all, as someone else said in the thread earlier, the club decides on memberships. (For the same reasons I see no reason why Turkey should be taking part in European sport events and even song contests).

    In any case, I believe that Turkey never wanted to be limited within any union as this would remove much of its flexibility in terms of strategic planning (Turkey wants expansion to the East where all the oil is anyway). They do aim high however, so that by asking for more (accession) they can at least get preferential treatment.

    • avatar

      And what were the Romans doing my friend? Did they not lay siege and Occupy foreign territories? What about the the British, the French and the Spanish? Racism weakly disguised.

    • avatar
      Prima Pistachio Scarpia

      My friend, Romans where doing the same thing, the British and the French where doing the same thing, the Dutch as well and (to cut a long story short) so did almost all nations in the world at some point in time.

      Now if that makes it reasonable for the French to join ASEAN because they once occupied Indochina, or the Spanish to join Mercosur because they once occupied most of South America, or the Germans to join the African Union because they once colonized South West Africa, then you may have a point. I just think your argument is totally irrelevant to what I was saying.

      As for the accusations about racism, allow me to say that this word along with fascism is often used by people when they run out of arguments.

      If someone says that a dog is a dog and a cat is a cat, that is common sense, not racism.

  51. avatar

    If the EU don’t want Turkey then Turkey shouldn’t want to join. Don’t become friends with the ones who don’t like you. Anyways, if it was my way, then Turkey would join it’s Muslim Brothers in a revival of the Khilafah.

  52. avatar

    I hope that Turkey will join to EU,because Turkey have a big progress for about 20 years.Corruption now is on the pretty low stage,life quality is o’k.Turkey with EU have a nice future,and EU too.

  53. avatar

    The answer is simply “NO”… there are many reasons and most have already been underlined on other peoples postings.

  54. avatar

    First of all, if we are trying to find an answer, we must look at the past Turkey and European countries had shared together. For almost ten years we discuss the question of Turkey’s possible accession into EU… Well, ten years i said, but even when i was a child in 1997, i still remembered the embarrassment and anger of Turkish people had felt when EU turned Turkey away to be a candidate while they accepted the East-European countries even tough those countries had just got rid of communism so they still had big issues abot democracy, human rights and economic problems (Well, still Turkey’s economy is stronger than those countries and we honestly cannot say that they solved all their human-rights problems)…

    So where did it all begin?

    Not so many people knows that Turkey is the second country after Greece to appeal to be a member of EEC in 1959? EEC then was just a union which had only six countries in but it was open-minded to expand. So Turkey as a European state applied and surprisingly EEC had approved. Surprisingly, because in 1959 Turkey is just an agricultural based country. But EEC or all the West-Europe countries were sharing a political proceeding to be equal to Greece and Turkey. And it was the cold war years so rejecting Turkey where she lies at the borders of communism would have been a big mistake to make. So after four years, in 1963 signed the Agreement Creating An Association Between The Republic of Turkey and the European Economic Community, also known as the Ankara Agreement. And do you know what this agreement says? It just says in the future, after both sides successfully pass the periods which prepare Turkey to standards of EEC, Turkey will be a member of the union. So… The agreement still continues and it never falls to disuse because it says it would go on until the aim is done. And it never can quash arbitrary; both sides have to make a decision together.

    Now it’s 2012 and 49 years has passed and Greece became a member in 1981, Spain and Portugal in 1986 and even Cyprus became a member in 2004 but Turkey is still only a candidate… Why? just because “IT IS TURKEY”.

    For example, making Greece a member in such an early time was a terrible mistake for EU, for Greece herself and for Turkey. It was a mistake for EU and Greece; i won’t tell the reasons but if you still want to know or wonder why, it’s enough to look at the situation of Greece economically in nowadays and how she is a big and unsolved problem for EU… Do you think that crisis had just happened suddenly? Now EU, espacially our beloved uppish Germany and France dictate anything to my lovely Greece which are always good for themselves and always blow for Greek people. I do really love Greece and Greek people and i’m so sorry for them every day when i read the news about them. But the fact is just a fact and this result is an inevitable ending. 1981, Greece, economically was not ready for EU. And after that, she always tried to catch the other countries by damaging herself and now that damage is irrevocable. But i have to pass it by because the matter is not Greece here.

    And yes, it was also a mistake for relations with Turkey too. Because for the first time EU (it was known than EC now) had broke down the equality between Greece and Turkey. Accepting Greece before she didn’t impelement the duties that EEC had asked for, make Turkey to think it would be the same for herself too. But it never would. So Turkey always got hung up between to make reforms and to expect to being accepted as she is… So she always think issues as human rights, freedom of speech etc… are just salvos that EU raising to keep Turkey out of the leauge. And this feeling got worsened when Cyprus became a member though EU had put forward both sides to accept Annan Plan or otherwise the island could not join the EU (Well, north side had accepted but south side had turned it down…so?…:) and everything had been more complicated.

    So… what would you say? I would say, after 49 years and Turkey is still just a candidate because of, yes, Turkey herself for a part.

    First of all, especially after 2007 crisis, no one can honestly say it’s an economic problem. It certainly is not… Turkey has a bigger and stronger economy than most of the members of EU and the specialists say that she will even stand up to big countries as UK, France and Italy in a not so far future…

    So the reason is human rights? No, no… As a humanist, i dearly wish one day Turkey will reach up the highest standards and we must force ourself to work for it. But if Turkey had been the trade mark of human rights, still EU would have been cried for a “privileged partnership”:) Human rights are very important as long as it doesn’t stop you… Can anyone tell me why EU is againts Libya, Iraq and Iran whilst making love with S. Arabia? For God’s sake, would anyone tell me why all the media and press and European governtments (included Turkish government) cry about the situation in Syria while all of them keep silence about Bahrein where has a state-terrorism to its own people? Dear friends we do not live in a perfect world!

    So the reason is Kurd people in Turkey? Kurds had so many rights in the last ten years… The only left things they are still fighting for education rights in their own language which i believe they will get soon, a separated state which Turkish people never accept nor majority of Kurdish people desire but a possibility always goes on about these facts, and release of Abdullah Ocalan which is even a shame to ask! And it’s an illusion to think that the fighting sides are Turkish people or Kurdish people. It is between PKK and state. PKK is a Kurdish terrorist organization but elsewhere in Turkey both races lives together and i’ve never heard anything that anyone has accused to kill someone just because being Turkish or Kurdish. And by the way EU cannot come up with the minority rights. EU is not innocent about their own minorities. So dear @Peter Schellinck please don’t come up with a Turkish local is standing for mayor in Belgium. It doesn’t prove anything. We also have Kurdish mayors in cities, Kurdish generals in army and even Kurdish presidents in past and MPs in now but it doesn’t mean that there is no Kurdish problem. And dear @catherine Benning, it seems you are totally against Turkey to join with you, and as a EU citizen you have such a right to think so. But with all your videos and comments, i must say, you are nearly a laugh! You give the numbers… you give us numbers to know how many thousands of muslims live in your countries. About minority rights, numbers are non-sense. Laws, political views and social behaviours make sense! For example, i doubt about your behaviours to those minorities after i read what you wrote. I doubt you but i surely know how minorities in EU are treated… Don’t make me say… I don’t want to upset you. Just look at the laws about minorities that passed in 2000s in France and Germany! Remember Paris riots! It had some reasons, didn’t it! @DnB said minorities rejecting to follow their cultures. Wow what a nice thing to say! Now i believe what you understand about human rights! Human rights for yourself and assimilation for minorities! Come together and becoming one are totally different things. Marble or mosaic? And do you tell me why there are millions of Turks, Algerians, Arabs, Africans in your lands and why the vast majority of them are poor? Did they come by theirselves or did states invite them? Invite them because of they are cheap workforce? “Are you afraid of your servants, Virginia?” once had asked sister’s of Virginia Woolf…

    You can say Armenian Genocide? Well another study of history…. First of all, it had happened in 1915. And in 1915 there was no Republic of Turkey. Look i said “it happened” Yes something had happened then. But was it really a genocide? Thousands of Armenians had died but not in the concentration camps or in prisons! Not in the hands of the Ottoman Army or Turkish soldiers… They were on a migration and state forced them to immigrate but it was 1915 there was a war called World War I and Armenians was just between Russians and Turks… Have a clue? I deeply feel sorry for souls who had passed in the cold days of winter on the roads and i also feel sorry for thousands of Turkish villagers who had been murdered by Russian Army and Armenian militias… You want Turkey to recognize those events as a genocide while no one is talking about why whole South American continent speak in Spanish or Portuguese? Where are now all those American Indians? What happened to Algerian people when they asked their freedom from France? None of them will never be recorded as genocides on paper while Lahey lies in Europe…
    Once again we do not live in a perfect world, and matter of fact we never did in the past too!!! So i better pay attention to my shirt for there might be blood stains on it while i talk about murder…

    There are lots of reasons for EU to not accept or delay the membership of Turkey but all of them is two-sided and easliy disprovable. In Ankara agreement, European countries says to prepare Turkey to join the club and it shows the way… And much or less Turkey tried to do what she is told to do… So…? So the problem is European countries… Talking about Turkey is ironically pointless because…

    Europe is not ready for Turkey. Was never ready and had done anything to be ready. EU had not done its homework. They gave their word so early in 1963. There was no EU. EEC was just a economic relationship so it was not a big deal to make Turkey a part of their association with Greece. But when it turns to be a union, when it becomes an organization over national states and takes some sovereignties and become an identity of European people, it seemed painfull to share that identity with Turkish people! with people that they see them below, with people that they don’t share the same religion, with people that they used some of them as a third kind human in their homes, streets and factories, with people that they never forget their hits on the doors of Vienna when they were in their Janissiary uniforms… For ages European countries had a common ideal to clean Balkans from Turks and send them back to beyond the Constantinopolis and now they open their lands to them again by their ownd hands? It’s impossible… For ages, European people sees Turkish people strangers and they missed and still missing the point that Turkish people culture and how it was affected by the years that they had lived in the middle of Europe and with reforms in late Ottoman era…

    So when you are ready if you have courage to be ready, come and knock on our door… But it would be too late. As long as Europe keeps still Turkey away from Europe, Turkey slides to east more and more… I mean when you come and knock that door, you might find us but not able to recognize… And that Turkey would be dangerous for you because then now a clash of civilizations would come true….

  55. avatar
    Andy Mitchell

    No don’t want turkey joining eu as this means more people on there way to the uk to take our jobs and scrounge off the state taking benefits.
    As well as the Romanians – when’s it going to stop ? This tiny islands infrastructure can’t take anymore !

  56. avatar

    Taking back İstanbul? is this your solution? Well honey maybe janisarries might come back on the earth and invade Bulgaria and Serbia again! you should know better: tit for tat!

    • avatar
      Debating Europe

      Please keep the debate civil, without threats of invasion, or we will have to lock this post.

    • avatar
      Christos Mouzeviris

      Oh, please! No one wants to take Istanbul or any other territory out of Turkey, or out of Greece, Albania, Serbia, Romania or Bulgaria. The borders are fine as they are.. When they all join the EU, there will be no point of arguing anymore. People will be able to move freely again in the Balkans, as they did for thousands of years during the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empire. People who envision another break-up of states, change of borders and annexing of old or new territories are actually promoting war… No sane person would ever want that for the Balkans, or Europe…

  57. avatar

    For those who are against innovation and globalization are sentenced to dissappear for good! People should give up viewing the world w their emotions and use their brain n be smarter. as a turk who was born n raised in CA, ithink i am pretty open minded.. i suggest you at least try to become one too! give up on racist ideas n try to contribute for the peace in the world! we are all human n neither chriistian or muslim or jewish we are all the childeren of God! and i know that for fact that for those who desires only for themselves is punishable by all the religions! so please stop making no sense! Turks have a lot to change as well as europeans. For those with racist posts above, if you cant think crittically at least try to read who can in your local papers or try google!
    Why Turkey should join the EU
    Spring 2006
    by George Vassiliou

    Failure to bring in candidate countries from Europe’s trouble spots would create even greater difficulties, writes George Vassiliou, former President of the Republic of Cyprus. By much the same token, he warns that Europeans must put aside their fears of globalisation and embrace its new economic realities
    by Jan Karlas

    by Sinan Ülgen (2009)

    Nothing remains static for long; you either change and move forward or you slip backwards. This simple truth has governed the thinking of those who shaped the European project since its earliest beginnings. From the first day in 1951 when the European Coal and Steel Community was established, change and progress have never stopped, bringing us today to a European Union of 25-plus, with a unified Single Market and a common currency for those in the euro.

    Yet of late we can also observe signs of stagnation – or perhaps a fear of the future, to be more precise – among large segments of the population in countries that were among the EU’s founding states. This was the attitude that led to the ‘No’ votes in the referendums in France and Holland, when popular resistance to further enlargement and to badly needed EU reforms became so glaringly obvious. In other words, European reaction to the many revolutionary changes taking place around the world under the blanket term ‘globalisation’ has been mind-boggling, reminiscent of that famous cry “stop the world, I want to get off”.

    Such fears may be understandable, but the dangers for Europe of standing still are greater than ever; the need to keep up the pace of change has never been so great. There is a clear need for Europe to meet two distinct challenges. First, to continue the EU enlargement process. Second, to adapt to globalisation by implementing all necessary reforms.

    The founding fathers’ Treaty of Rome clearly stated that any European state may apply to become a member of the community, and that holds good today. But there is also no doubt that Europe is suffering from enlargement fatigue. The Copenhagen criteria clearly state that enlargement is dependent not only on the ability of the accession countries to meet the very strict requirements of the Union, but also on the ability of current members to digest further expansion.

    The “big bang” enlargement from 15 to 25 members, and shortly to 27, has created not just fatigue but also fear. A significant proportion of Europeans, particularly the unemployed and those in the lower income groups, are afraid of further expansion. The spectre of the “Polish plumber” is a clear indication of the prevailing mood. Meanwhile, Europe’s political elite, backed possibly by a silent majority of the EU population, realises that it is practically impossible to call a halt to further enlargement. They are fully aware that refusing candidate and would-be candidate countries their right to try and join would create much greater problems for Europe. Fortunately, these further enlargements are not for tomorrow, as it will easily take between 10 and 20 years before the next big batch of countries that are ready to join – long enough for there to be a major change of mood.

    Currently, we need to deal with only two tricky enlargement issues: the western Balkans and Turkey.

    The countries of the western Balkans are part of Europe, whatever the definition used. No one can possibly claim that Greece, Bulgaria and Romania are European but that Albania, Croatia and so on are not. The issue therefore is not whether they are European but whether they are ready, willing and able to meet the Copenhagen criteria.

    Right now, none of the Balkan countries meets the criteria. Even the most advanced, Croatia, needs several years before it can join the club. The others require substantial help and many years of hard work. But if we want to see this volatile part of the world stabilised, future ethnic explosions averted, democracy established and free market rules prevailing, we need to help them all. We have to offer them the perspective of joining the Union at some stage, and we have to help them achieve this objective. Whether it takes ten or twenty years is of no importance; what is important is for them to know that if and when they succeed in implementing the acquis they will be allowed to join. It is the promise of a better and safer future at the end of the road that will help them overcome their ethnic disputes.

    The perspective that opened last autumn with the start of Turkish accession negotiations of Turkey joining in 10 to 20 years has frightened a lot of people. A significant proportion of voters in several EU countries cannot envisage Turkey becoming a full member, especially those attached to the idea that the EU is a Christian club. Others think that Turkey is too big to fit into the EU, or remember tales from school of Europe’s battles against the Ottoman empire. If referendums were held today, a majority in many European countries would probably vote against Turkey’s accession.

    But the aim of both EU and Turkish leaders is to ensure its Europeanisation. They want to see the Turkey of tomorrow joining the Union, a country that will fully meet the Copenhagen criteria and provide much-needed support for Europe’s relations with the Muslim world and its fight against terrorism. The Turkish issue should therefore be addressed in the following way: Negotiations with Turkey should start, but at the same time both Turkey’s government and the public opinion should be aware of the challenges they are facing. No assurances of any kind can be given by the EU and it would be counter-productive to insist on them. It is nevertheless vital to start on the road to full harmonisation, which under any circumstances will be beneficial to Turkey. Europe should sincerely help and contribute towards this effort, and should address the issue of accession closer to the end of the process. Turkey’s image in Europe will certainly have changed for the better 15 or 20 years from today, especially if during this time sincere efforts are made to promote the country’s Europeanization, solve the Cyprus problem, improve relations with Greece and ensure respect for minorities. With this perspective in mind, I believe it is to everybody’s advantage to contribute so that Turkey ultimately joins the Union.

    The world economy has in recent years changed dramatically, and at an extremely fast pace. Technological and scientific revolutions have led to the introduction of a wide range of new products and production techniques, while the world’s markets have more than doubled in less than 10 years. First, the ex-communist economies of Europe introduced market rules and joined the free market world, and now China and India are also joining. Billions of dollars are being invested every day and we are witnessing a huge shift of production from the West towards the Asian economies.

    This very rapid transformation has caused problems in the EU and in the US. It has led to increasing unemployment, particularly among less skilled people in labour intensive sectors, and at the same time negative demographic trends and declining investment and research spending have been contributing to the serious difficulties of most Western economies.

    The effect of these new realities is that many workers and farmers, together with the politicians who represent them, are making desperate efforts to protect the status quo. They cling to the illusion that this is possible, and they try to blame the EU for any difficulties they continue to encounter. It has become useless to point out that nobody can stop the forces of globalisation.

    I myself am convinced that the end-result of the globalisation process can only be beneficial to everybody, in developed and developing countries alike. But we will succeed only if we cease resisting and try instead to adapt to the new realities of globalisation. We should never forget that the industrial successes of Britain, the United States, Japan, Germany and France were all due to innovation and their adoption of new technologies 100 years ago or more. Most of these technologies are now available worldwide. Millions of people in the developing world are anxious to work hard and produce goods of equal quality but at lower cost than in the West, so we need to adopt a more positive attitude and try to take advantage of the new realities by transforming our economies, promoting education and spending significantly more on research. This may be easier to say than to do, but it is the only choice available.

  58. avatar


  59. avatar
    Debating Europe

    @murat and @Mihail – Your comments have been removed for breaching Debating Europe’s code of conduct. Please keep the discussion civil and respectful at all times.

  60. avatar

    If you thınk you are fair, you must erase thıs post as well. ithas nocorrelaition w the topic! stop the double standards! You Turks don’t learn your lessons? Russia will come and defeat Turkey. its a good thing that Turkey is a toy of America and this gives it some guarantee that Turkey would not be erased from the map of the world. Are Turkish people proud of the Atrocities they commit, The Wolf changes its Fur but not its personality.. I vote for Recognizing the Armenian Genocide.

  61. avatar

    Well massive detoriation of albanians in Kosova doesnt make Serbia normal as the rest of the christian countries!the life is not white and black! There are always third parties influencing third world countries! And please try to read othersources than your local news in orderto judge others! there are always two sides of a story! Russia has nothing to do w this topic n please stop being rdiculous Mİhail…

    • avatar

      and stop the islamiphobia

  62. avatar
    catherine benning

    Turkey is incapable of committing to and sustaining the requirments of a Western culture. It cannot, or does not want to, leave behind the policies of inequality for women. It is unable to remain tolerant of an opposing view and it is unable to distance itself from the persuasion of violence towards those who do not adhere to their non Western culture.

    Turkey is a country of vast deprivation, and is therefore unable to unify with those parts of Europe that have a higher standard of living and a competant welfare system, which Europeans cannot supply them with.

    The people of Europe cannot afford to envelope such a State within its borders.

    The best solution for Turkey is to become part of the USA. Which has similar problems within its border and who will see it as a benefit to its people for the sake of the nuclear bases they wish to proliferate inside that country.

    Europe should not consider any further expansion at this point. Unless the application comes from a country equal to its fiscal and social requirments. To do otherwise is a betrayal of all we stand for.

  63. avatar

    Catherine pleasestop posting comments! becuase it is clear that you have no knowledge regarding to Turkey based on the things you are mentionning! You might be a Hater but this doesnt changw the facts of the glloball economy n its dependency! why dont eu leave you alone by yourself against the rest of the world ;)) how about that :)) Find yourself a feminist forums to discuss about this you may find more supporters :)) Yes Turkey isa different country with no racism in it! i am not mentionnig about the history so dnt come up w armean genocide! yeah there have been mistakes at every nations history ill remindyou of germany!You should find yourself a boyfriend i think youll chgane your mind about this! who knows may be he will be Turkish:)) overall, gloaziation linking thecworld together in order yo compete with fastest growing asian countires youll have to come up w other soolutions to your production plans! soo too bad that you need other countries inn other than as you guys say non whitenon christain or non racist countires in order to fix your economy ktherwise you have no choice but falling down…

  64. avatar
    Debating Europe

    Unfortunately, we have had to lock this thread because the debate was rapidly going off-topic. It’s obviously a topic people are passionate about, however, so we will look for more people to interview on this subject and we will restart the debate soon.

  65. avatar
    Tiago Mouta

    If EU is ready to religious freedom…yes

  66. avatar
    Kypriana Makri

    Only if recognize the Republic of Cyprus.

  67. avatar
    Prince W. Soniyiki

    if they become liberal and implement human right as piority.

  68. avatar
    Naira Vanbeginne

    that country committed Genocide in 1915 !!!! European countries accepted that fact but Turkey-not, how can it become the part of Europe??

  69. avatar
    Alex Tenie

    I think that eventually they will be in some sort of special trade agreement with the EU instead of full integration.

  70. avatar
    Dimi Karan

    Take a map and look at it. There’s your answer…

  71. avatar
    Virag Gulyas

    It would have many benefits as well as defect. However, I think the question should be as such: Is the EU ready to accept Turkey? :) At the moment the EU has deeper challenges and problems….

  72. avatar
    Hakan Tabak

    most of the public in Turkey are against of being a part of EU, cause the last situation of EU is not so promising. and after all “no” answers from EU in years have bothered the Turkish public. so even EU wants, Turkey is not interested to be part of EU anymore, u can see that easily in Turkey new foreign policy.but of course we would like to help our friend greece :)

  73. avatar
    Igor Zunamenko

    Turkey shouldn’t; Ukraine should.

  74. avatar
    Jude De Froissard

    no….they are not europeans…and the problem still persists in cyprus..and should recognize armenian genocide.

  75. avatar
    Surkhan Latifov

    Turkey will be the most important partner of the European Union.

  76. avatar
    David Fuzzey

    only if they want the eurocrats to destroy their Country

  77. avatar
    George Papadimitriou

    allowing turkey in, means that the EU also accepts to handle a number of serious turkish issues. At the moment, the EU refuses to handle it’s own matters. On the other hand, given the population of turkey, they will be eligible for more votes in the EU parliament and I dont think the germans would like that very much…

  78. avatar
    Hilmi Selçuk İpek

    I am Turkish and I think that Turkey should not join. But an agreement must be made for for trade! Bug business for both

  79. avatar
    Volkan Ünal

    Turkey should NOT join the Eurovision 2013

  80. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Turkey would feel just as uncomfortable in a secular minded EU as Europeans would sharing the Union with a country which believes Islam should be such a big factor in determining the political and social order of the State. This is an easy No.

  81. avatar
    Cem Ozan

    Turkey should focused with more important subjects instead of wasting time with Euroshits…improving democrat?cal values and humanrights for her people must be first subject

  82. avatar
    Nikolaj Lauritzen

    Definatly NOT!
    EU is a CHRISTIAN project. Based on christian values!

  83. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Turkey should accepted as a member by the EU in the end.But ? concede that too Turkey does not prepare for the EU still.Meanwhile it is going to preparing for 2023 like the target of Atatrk. Turkey was established in 1923 and the 2023 is the 100th anniversary of Republic of Turkey. Ethnic Turks are too flexible and opportunist.Therefore mostly they make same mistakens.But anyway they can overcome the mistaken of themselves like Germans or like Odysseus. But the meaningless suffer is odd.

  84. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Everything is against Turkey membership: the European public opinion is not prepared, the Turkish public opinion lost interest, in geographically terms Turkey is not European (or Spain would be an African country), they have a different civilization, different values and is living a religious revivalism going on the opposing direction of European Democracy. Actually, I think Erdogan geo-politic motivation is far from the Europe path. However, the question is not only Turkey. Some Eastern European countries are also far away from the Western Europe democratic values, like Ukraine, Belarus and Russia. It is much more important for the near future, E.U. to implement its economic, political and defence integration and to deep the democracy than just to expand for the expansion sake.

  85. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Naturally, Turkey will not hop on the sinking ship. Istanbul’s economy alone is larger than that of 12 EU countries. Turkey is a G20 member, world’s 15th largest economy with 2nd highest growth rate in G20 after China. EU is full of countries that have no future along with entirely bankrupt ones like Greece and Cyprus. Turkish lifestyle is like that of most eastern European countries, Turks are actually more openminded and progressive than many European nations. If you look into history, Turkey was among the first in Europe to give rights to women and adopt secularism. You couldn’t get divorced in some European countries up until the last decade while you could do it in Turkey since its foundation. Europeans that have never visited Turkey are usually full of prejudice, you will not see that in those that are well traveled and informed. If you think that Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. are better than Turks, you are entirely unaware of the Turkish reality and a judgmental individual. Today’s reality is, whether you like it or not, that EU needs Turkey more than Turkey needs EU. Turks will use EU official candidate status for its benefits but not join in the end. Why? Because they are smarter than your country and doing far better. One other reality is that Turkish population is young which makes it a dynamic country unlike European countries which consist of elderly people, it is forecasted that Europe will cease to exist in a few centuries due to this issue and the economy will go downhill at high speed in the near future. 40% of Turkish population is under 15, 72% is under 35. This rate is absolutely uncomparable to European countries. Face it, Europe is a small continent and the only country that EU can include to benefit from is Turkey, Europe can not become a global player without Turkey on its side. Countries that lack diversity and countries that are stuck in the religious vicious circles of the past are destined to fail in today’s global world. If you resist Turkey and other European nations such as Ukraine, Azerbaijan, etc., you will be taken over by far incompatible nationalities such as Indians and Chinese just as is happening in the United States while they think their problem is Mexico. Majority of world companies have their Eastern European regional headquarters in Turkey today. Majority of car manufacturers are in Turkey. More than half of the TVs sold in Europe are made in Turkey for instance. Turkish Airlines has been selected Europe’s Best Airline for years now and flies to more destinations than any world airline. Turkey is also becoming an energy corridor, your only alternative to Russia which enjoys monopoly and often cuts your supply. Last time it happened, Turkey helped out many neighbouring European countries including Greece. Check Eastern European nations’ TV channels during prime time, from Croatia to Czech Republic including that of Greece, they are full of very popular Turkish shows rather than local ones. Just a few examples of their future, and no need to give examples to your downhill economies. Most of you are unaware of a lot of things, many members of failed nations are here badmouthing Turks. Really, soon enough the only economy in Europe to challenge Turkey will be Germany and Turks are the highest foreign population in that country. You may insist in your ideologies, you may come up with excuses and reasons as usual, you may go ahead and put your heads in sand like ostriches, but you will only harm the future of Europe in the end. Turkey and the Turks will be fine.

  86. avatar
    Pedro Celestino

    I would advice everyone to not join EU!!!

  87. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Kamil Ozsoy, my posting was not “prejudiced”, I was just highlighting facts. I was not criticizing Turkey. And yes, I agree with you, Turkey do not need EU. You have a 5 to 7% growth rate while the EU is still. As I said, the policy of Erdogan has been directed towards the Middle East and near Asia and your economic growth is an example of the success of that geostrategy. Your GDP multiplied 3 times over in the last decade. One can ask, why then, could Turkey be interested in a union that is lagging behind? On the other hand you are aware that 87% Turks are not interested in the EU, on surveys they say do not trust Christians and have a bad opinion about them (we can ask ourselves what kind of marriage is this?), Erdogan and the AKP is trying to change your constitution to become a more presidentialist and reinforce presidential powers, as Nuray Merte said “the authoritarian way of Erdogan of doing politics”, on a very different way of the European way, AKP is destroying the Mustafa Kemal inheritance an religion is entering on the public sphere when in Europe we are going on the other way, the minorities still do not see their rights recognized (to respect the rights of minorities is a fundamental principle of Democracy), and above all, the typical division of powers in Democracy, Government, Parliament and Justice is put in question by Erdogan when he said and quote “the separation of powers, is life spoiling, a great obstacle” putting in question all sacred values of Democracy. The freedom of Media is dyeing (more than 60 journalists are in jail) which is a paramount value in Europe. As you see, Turkey is going on a different way, more in direction of Egypt than to Europe. Why is that? Your values are different. May be is ok for you, but not for us. PS: I have a better opinion about Turks than I have about Romanians.

  88. avatar
    Pantelis Grigoriadis

    It’s better for them not to. They should make a special agreement with EU, something like Norway has. If they really want to though I would support them.

  89. avatar
    Gullu Mammedova

    Why not…Turkey tries to join the EU…but now it won’t be so useful for Turkey

  90. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Vicente Silva Tavares: Not needing is a whole different issue. Germany and France do not need the other mostly poor members of EU either, in fact those members drag them down. Policy of the current Turkish government is not just to be directed towards those (Middle East and near Asia) you mentioned. Turkey is in customs union with EU and it’s major trade is with European countries. Every Turkish organization is entirely integrated with Europe. Turkey has been completely ignoring Middle East since its foundation, Turks turned their back to Middle Eastern nations after the collapse of Ottoman Empire and up until the late 1990s. Erdogan’s government just stopped this trend and started trading with countries to Turkey’s east and south, as well as Asian and African countries. Turkey is just trying to become more active globally rather than just in Europe or in its region. You have to realize Turkey’s unique location, it’s in the middle of three continents and it has a culture which is a synthesis of them. This strategic location is one of the reasons why Turkish Airlines is on its way to becoming the major airline of the world. Turks are today active in some really poor African countries in which other countries do not have any investments. Take Somalia for instance, there was no non-African country flying there up until 2012 when Turkish Airlines initiated flights to connect them to the world after the Turkish government renovated their airport. These should not be ignored. I sense Jewish style criticism of Erdogan and his government in your post. Turkey is not moving in the direction of Egypt, this sentence alone shows that you are really not that familiar with the Turkish background, culture, and reality. As many don’t know, although I’m sure you’re aware, Turks and Arabs do not have ethnic ties, they never acted similarly throughout history, in fact Turks have almost always been at odds with Arabs. If anything, Egypt is taking Turkey as a model to a degree and slightly improving. Turkey having trade relationship with Middle Eastern nations unlike in the past and siding with Arabs in certain conflicts along with the majority of the world does not mean that Turkey is becoming like those countries. Does Russia and China siding with Syria today mean that they are becoming like Syrians or Arabs? Such criticism towards Turkey is extremely common and extremely unfair at the same time. The minority issues are always brought up but nobody pays attention to how those minorities act. The Kurdish minority in Turkey has an active terrorist organization, they are working towards causing an ethnic conflict within the country they live in, they want polarization and division. No country acts differently when this takes place within their own borders while they immediately become supporters when it happens in other countries. When people criticize this, and when you follow up with a similar scenario within their own nation by a known minority, their attitude instantly changes as they realize what it actually is. Turkey provided more freedom to its minority throughout history as long as they are peaceful. Peaceful Kurds in Turkey live among Turks and are not discriminated against, they don’t have different neighbourhoods. Turks had a Kurdish prime minister in the 1980s. Imagine an Arabic prime minister in Israel or a Turkish prime minister in Germany. Sinking in? Such criticisms are beyond absurd when critics are not in a position to criticize because their countries do not provide as much freedom to their minorities to begin with. Turkish parliament is full of Kurdish politicians, there are countless Kurdish people in Turkish government offices, many successful businessmen, actors, singers. Turks do not deserve such accusations since it’s part of their culture to live in harmony with minorities since Ottoman Empire. Turks are the nation that ruled tens of nations like Greeks, Bulgarians, etc. for half a millenium. Again, that’s half a millenium, twice the time United States existed. How did these countries preserve their language, religion, culture and go back to what they were after declaring independence? Because Turks provided them with extreme freedom and did not assimilate them. One Greek philosopher said that if they were ruled by the French instead of the Turks, they would be French now. Can you absorb this? Your country wouldn’t have provided as much freedom for 500 years. The only point I can agree in your post is the issue the current Turkish government has with the media. They are acting like Russia. But I’d like to let you know that there is still great freedom when it comes to media in Turkey. Those journalists are partially targeted but the reason they are in prison is different organized activities they were involved in. Still, hopefully Turkey will progress in this issue just like they do rapidly in every field. And also, this is the current government which will eventually run its course and get replaced by a different party. Religious governments are not an unusual thing at all in Europe, many European countries also have extremist governments from time to time. They should not be exempt from criticism while Turkey gets criticized in an ongoing basis. There are extreme double standards and hypocrisy. You talk about values but those values do not apply equally to everyone, Europeans move with prejudice again and have selective viewing of who does what. One example. Turkey treats illegal immigrants in high standards and provide them in every way necessary until the legal procedure takes place. You should google to see the facilities built for them. While Greece treats them terribly, they live in conditions appropriate for animals, Greek authorities often take them to the Aegean sea and dump them in wild waters justifying it because they arrived that way. Far from humanity. Turkish coast guard saves a portion while the rest drowns. Ever heard of this? Of course not, and you would instantly ignore and forget if you did because it’s not Turkey doing it. If it comes to immigrant treatment, I’m sure you’d make a judgmental assumption and say that Greece as an EU member is better and Turkey is worse. Applies to many different areas and most European countries. I have so many examples which I wouldn’t want to list here and make this an even longer post. Many European countries are corrupt, Turkey gets criticized all the time by those that are worse. Good is mentioned when it comes to other countries while bad is mentioned when it comes to Turkey. Seriously.

  91. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    The Mr.Erdogan debate is a too complicated situation for Turkey. Actually ? would have preferred, Mr. Erdo?an’ to chase the values of ?slam rather than the interests of ethnic Turkness. He looks like towards of the direction of ?slam, including the interests of ethnic Turkness. But inside the periphery of him occured a lot of and too rich thieves and they claim themselves as pure ethnic Turk. Therefore they claim that themselves entitle a theft authority for the out in Ergenekon to the ethnic Turkness. We will see what will happen in future.

  92. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Kamil, Turkey is entirely European? Wanna tell me what European state puts journalists in jail because they suggest its history contains genocide? Maybe Belarus, but no one else, and they will never be an EU member. Which other European country actively supports the occupation of an EU state? Anyone else recognize Turkish Cyprus as a sovereign state? Want to tell me which European country sees the separation of religious beliefs from its politics as a bad thing?

    We need to get real. If Istanbul and some of the western coast were applying for membership, then it would be one thing. We are talking bout a country that includes eastern Anatolia as well. And it’s not like it would be a member like some of the Balkan countries waiting to get in, all of which combine for about 20-25 million people. Turkey alone would be the second largest EU state (Largest in a few years with demographic trends ahead of Germany), a HUGE burden on the farm budget, and a foreign policy view which tilts increasingly away from Western interests and towards the Muslim east. And please don’t tell me you are NATO members. NATO is nothing now but a welfare program for America’s defense contractors. If Russia invaded Estonia tomorrow, do you think America would go to war to stop it? not in a million years. Turkey now makes deals with Hamas, does cross border raids into Iraqi Kurdish areas, continues to occupy Cyprus, is getting chummy with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and has tense relations with Armenia. Even discounting all this, you do not qualify for membership using the Copenhagen criteria for accession. Like I said, we need to get real. Turkey has never been quite European in values, and since the AK has come to power (and is obviously very popular), it has been driven further apart.

    You couldn’t be any more wrong about “the little countries in the EU” because they provide a great customs-free market for Europe’s exporters, which is why study after study has shown Germany’s economy benefitted from admission of the eastern members in 2004 to the EU. But you don’t need to worry about tha because that will never be your problem.

  93. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Jovan Ivosevic: I sadly observed how you did not get anything out of my post and proceeded with repeating the same usual nonsense everyone does. Bringing up random accusations from a century ago, one sided twisted versions of history, and showing Turkey as the wrongful side in every issue. Why? Because you are one of those judgmental people I mentioned earlier. You are bringing up Cyprus and Armenia which are decades behind Turkey in every aspect, yet you side with them because you are not a neutral third party, you are -unfortunately- a racist individual of Europe. Armenia does not only discriminate against other religions, they do not even provide religious freedom to other denominations of Christianity in their soil. You take their side versus Turkey, a nation full of churches and synagogues. Greek Cypriots attempt to cleanse the island off of its Turkish population that coexisted with Greeks, rewrites the constitution, starts massacring Turks to push them to mainland Turkey, and attempts a coup to unite with Greece. One of the three guarantor states (UK, Greece, Turkey) interfere as is their right under such circumstances, provides safe heaven for its people in 1/3 of the island which corresponds to the Turkish population. Yet, you side with Greek Cypriots. That is who you are, your thoughts are driven by your brainwashing and hatred, you can’t think clearly and decide fairly. Turks could have invaded the entire island at the time easily which they didn’t do, do you appreciate it at all? Of course not. Nothing Turkey does is right in your eyes, you always take side with the opponent in every issue.

  94. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    An another influenced group is Gulenists in Turkey. Even if they look like toward of the values of ?slam, they depend on the interests of Turkness usually. Consequently if they have to prefer one of the them, they tend toward the ethnic Turkness in my opinion. Although Turkey might happen a member of the EU in future. Otherwise the future will not be better than now, after the Mr. Erdo?an.

  95. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Kamil you can call me racist or any other name you want, the facts speak for themselves. You are too close emotionally to the subject to have any objectivity to the matter. Who cares what Armenia’s government is like? They are not a democracy, they aid in the occupation of Nagorno Karabakh, but who cares? Is Armenia an EU state? “Not quite as bad as Armenia” is not good enough for EU membership. You need to be MUCH better if you want to join the EU.

    And as for Cyprus, what you think about it, or what I think about it is irrelevant. Unlike you, I am much more objective about my own emotional involvement in the matter. As a Serb, my own country is a candidate for the EU. Do you think I have no opinion on Kosovo? of course I do, but I am realistic enough to understand that as things currently stand, 22 out of 27 (soon 23 out of 28) EU states will have a different opinion on its status than the majority of my countrymen, and I am realistic enough to accept that we can’t have it both ways – either cling to Kosovo (which we don’t control) and stay out of the Union or accept reality and join it.

    Turkey’s reality is that in 2004 Cyprus became an EU Member, and by definition, more important than you in EU affairs. So you can continue to occupy the north and mentally relitigate 1974 to make yourselves feel better, but stay outside the EU, or you can come to some sort of a mental acceptance that Cyprus has natural borders as an island, that it has a Greek majority, and that it isn’t part of your territory. That would be some indication that you are ready to join a political union of which Cyprus is already a member.

    That is my most impartial judgment, as is the fact that Turkey completely fails the Copenhagen criteria for admission. 1) Peace with your neighbors (Cyprus, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Armenia)… all open questions, all possible flareups. 2) Human rights – criminalizing the “insulting of Turkishness”, jailing people for publicizing a version of history you don’t like, the Kurdish issue… yeah right. and 3) a functioning market economy – ok you have 1 down, 2 to go.

    One of the most common things people do when the have no facts is they start to call their opponents names. If that makes you feel better, so be it. But it doesn’t change the fact that Turkey is absolutely not EU material at the present time.

  96. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Kamil, you are a funny guy. You seem like the type to want to have the last word, which is why instead of writing a new comment in response to me, you edited your previous ones. Oh well.

    Look, obviously you are guided more by emotion than facts here. First you say how Europe needs Turkey more than the Turks need the EU, and therefore Turkey should join (fair enough), but then you go on some rant about how the Turks don’t need Europe because you are so great. And that’s fine too, but a part of me wonders why you are so upset if this is the case and someone is not letting you become a member. For your information, I have nothing against the Turks. I’ve been to Turkey before, I flew Turkish Airlines from LA to Istanbul and Istanbul to Belgrade just a few weeks ago, and to me Turkey is just another country towards which I feel nothing particularly negative or positive. As a Serb I certainly have no reason for an inferiority complex. Serbia fought a war of independence against your people over 200 years ago, and we won it. We then won aonther war in the 1850s, we fought two in the 1870s (lost the first, and won the second), we fought the Balkan Wars in 1912 where the Brits had to come save you from collapse so that the Balkan League doesn’t hand over the Dardanelles to the Russians and last we fought World War I and we were on the winning side while your Ottoman State was dismembered. So believe me, while certainly there are states on which we can model our economic and political system, Turkey is not one of them. France would be the best comparison given our etatist economics and semi presidential system.

    I am sure some people feel some hostility, as do you because of all your little insults (it’s quite comical frankly but it’s your problem not mine) but I am not among them. I look at Turkey through the same lens that the European Commission looks at it, and that is, do you meet the same standards for membership which every EU Applicant has to meet? That is set in the Copenhagen criteria, and as I said above Turkey fails badly at 2 out of 3 of them. But really, if you feel the EU is on the verge of collapse, and that you are too big and too cool to be part of that club, I don’t see why you would be so upset with anyone who thinks Turkey has no place there. Seems like your anger is a projection of something else that only you know the answer to. And I really couldn’t care less what that is. Have a pleasant day.

  97. avatar
    Jokera Jokerov

    No, no place for Turkey in a Christian club. And what is more important, the young Turkish generation prefers its own country than the EU “whorehouse” as one of my Turkish friends said.

  98. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Kamil, you write too long for an internet forum. Some of the issues Jovan already answered but let me say you a few things: First I am an atheist to answer your insinuation that I had a “Jewish” criticism. More over, as a citizen of a Catholic majority country, my background was indeed Catholic although my family was one of those that only go to the church on 3 occasions: baptisms, weddings and funerals. Naturally I have evolved towards the atheism. When you say and I quote “when Turks actually are generally not religious at all” you must be kidding. When in the last decades your conservative religious party AKP won the elections, when the hijab became common on your society, even in urban areas, when your prime minister sang a religious poem against kafirs that made him to jail, when he, in the traditional Islamic way, wants to reduce democracy in Turkey towards a one man power (it can be called Oriental, on the Islamic or Russian tradition) , when Turks still kill Muslims that convert to Christianity (Hassam told me), when your Grey Wolves killed a Christian priest a couple of years ago, when two years ago put a bomb on a caf patronised by tourists infidels, when every year there is some violence against Christians, and you are telling me Turks are not religious at all? When even your profile picture has a religious hat? When you still deny the Armenians genocide (do you want to see some pictures?), when you are arrogant, nationalist and most likely very religious with the secret intention to convert Europe to Islam as the Quran says, that it is the task of all Muslims to convert or kill the infidels. No thank you. I do not want a country to be member of EU when 87% of its population wants to kill us or oblige us to convert to a religion where men can beat their wives (I have two daughters) and have all the power. At least in Europe, we recognized the excesses of religion and put it aside and we are getting less and less religious. As I said to Hasam, religion is about hate and killings.

  99. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Mr. Tavares, you distort some my explanations or mislead in my opinion. ?n contrary i said you the Religions serve to the peace and goodness like money but mostly both of them are a tool for evil too.Besides the majority of Turkey depends on Hanif and Maruridi School of ?slam like me. Hanifs never accept must killed for faith or to convert or infidels by anybody, except for State. Some Selefists like Al Qaeda or Hashasins like Khan clannish in ?ndia believe to assasinate. The assaniations which you said were made by Ergenekon organisation for provocation. There is a problem in Turkey but it is not concerning ?slam, but it is concerning ethnic Turkness. Some thieves use Turkness and Gypsies for theft and are manipulating everything. ? had said you Catholisizm is much bigger danger for the EU rather than ?slam, because it is a institutioned religion. Turkey is under the Racism danger, like once upon a time or still Germany.

  100. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Hasan zdemir the sentence of “religion being a matter of hate and death is mine, not yours. Beside all explanations you give, you did agree that the Quran is the actual words of Allah, and you, as a good Muslim, you must obey and follow the Quran. Right? Well, it is written in the Quran, in several surahs that Muslims must convert or kill all infidels until there are only Muslims in the world. It also says that a Muslim that change religion must be killed. Do you need I give you the numbers of the surahs? Or may be quote them over here so all people can know? Now answer me: How can we have a peaceful dealing, even invite to our family (personal or political), someone that believes it is its duty to kill us if we refuse to convert to his religion? This is the main question for Europeans. Then if you search on Internet, you will see that the surveys done on Turkey, says that 87% of Turks do not trust or have a good opinion about Christians and Jews (90%). Most of the European countries even if they are not very religious have a Christian background. How can we deal with you if your purpose is to turn us in Muslims or, if we refuse, to kill us? Taking in attention all the violent background of Islam. The recent Arab Spring shows the reality despite all speeches. They were complaining about the lack of democracy and when the got it what they had done? Persecution and killings in Tunisia, religious zealots at the Governments and in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood President the first thing he tried to do was overcome the divisions of power and transform him in another dictator. Look at the past of Turkey: you have been mostly under the rule of the Military or supervised by them. When you got a little more democracy what the Turks have done? They put a religious party in the Government and your prime-minister dreams about being your dictator, even if it is under the cover of a “presidential system”. Just give me a name of a Muslim country with a democratic regime comparable with Europe, America or Japan? Sorry Hasan, you must recognize that your religion is, as Muslims say, a life style and this do not includes democracy. That is why all Muslim countries have an autocratic regime. But not only Muslim countries, Russia has the same tradition of autocratic regimes and also them do not have a democracy and I doubt on the next 100 years they will learn to be a democratic country. And I am also against Russia (and its attachments) being members of the European Union. By the way, do you know why the E.U. flag has 12 stars?

  101. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Hasan, I certainly don’t believe Turkey’s politics are anywhere near the Taliban’s or other extremists, even today with the AKP in power. However, ever since they took over, from European perspective it has seemed that Turkey is stepping outside of European norms with the loosening of a very large wall built by Ataturk and his successors between Mosque and State. That plus now turning to a little bit of a middle east centered policy, taking away its closer ties to Israel (which irritates the US more than Europe but nevertheless valid) etc. From my conversations with people I think many people who in the 1990s supported Turkey strongly for EU membership were excited to see the AKP come to power because they felt the party would chart a new course for Islamist parties – to essentially do for Islam what Christian Democracy did for Catholic parties in Europe, and become a model throughout the Muslim world. I always thought this was a bit naive not because I felt the AKP would become so Islamist, but because a Turkish party could never have as big of an impact on the Middle East as an Arab Islamist party reforming could. But from the standpoint of these people, Erdogan has been more of a step back than a step forward and thus the disappointment with Ankara is great despite all the progress in economic matters.

    If Turkey’s civilian government reasserted itself like it did in the last few years (by taking down the military) AND it was led by the CHP which was winning elections as comfortably as the AKP, I think there would be a very different conversation in Brussels about Turkey’s membership.

  102. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Many European nations have disputes with their neighbours, Greece has an ongoing dispute with Macedonia and Turkey, Cyprus has a dispute with Turkey. Since you are not neutral and you always decide against Turkey, you ignore these disputes when it comes to the other side. Cyprus government was the one that voted NO for the UN plan to reunite the island which the entire world supported while the Turkish side voted YES. Yet, you can shamelessly act like the Greeks are working towards it and Turks are the ones that aren’t. That is who you are. But after finding out that you are Serbian, nothing would come as a surprise at this point. You are the least European nation in the middle of Europe, you are only geographically European. The entire world condemned your genocide of Bosnians which you call Turks. You are not a neutral individual, Serbians hate Bosnians and Turks. Your entire support of Cyprus issue is also driven by the Kosovo issue rather than what took place and who is right and who is wrong. Serbs are among the last on earth surface to talk about genocides as they are the only ones outside Africa to commit genocide in recent history, however I need to remind you that you are clueless about what took place a hundred years ago and just moving with the one sided stories you have been hearing and blindly believing. The Jewish Holocaust has countless evidence, the Serbian Genocide of Bosnians have countless evidence, however anything provided as proof of a genocide by Armenians indicates nothing more than a war that took place. I did not call you names in an insulting way at any point, I just said what applies according to your posts because you really are moving with hatred and you have racist views against Turkey because you side with the other side in every single issue including the Kurdish terrorist group. You can not do it all and then still try to act like a decent neutral third party that decides fairly. It simply doesn’t work that way. But again, like I said, there is polarization in the region, Greece supports Serbia and Turkey supports Bosnia, your hatred against Turkey and sympathy towards Greece and Armenia are not at all unusual and common within your race. You accuse Turkey of not meeting Copenhagen criterias. Quite a nonsense for you to come up with but the portion Turkey may not meet is due to the fact that Turkey did not start negotiations with EU in those fields. Like I mentioned before, other European nations joined EU when they had issues with their neighbours, Serbia has many issues with its neighbours, you need to get real and get back to your senses because -as an individual of one of the least developed nations in Europe- you are not at all in a position to criticize any other European nation or Turkey. Like I said, EU will take you in because you are little and insignificant, do not take different meanings out of it and flatter yourself or start thinking highly of yourself. If you tell someone you are from Serbia, like I said, they will most likely not even know whether it’s a city or country except for those that heard of your recent atrocities. I also realize your hatred towards NATO at this point because NATO stopped your genocide against Bosnians. You are quite hilarious, you should have never given out your identity.

  103. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Kamil, you have written a novel and then revised it 25 times. If that isn’t proof to you that you are light years from objective on this issue, then I don’t know what is.

    What you don’t seem to understand is that in 2012, no one blames the Turkish government for anything the Ottomans did in 1915. However, in 2012 everyone in Europe agrees that the Turkish government today is 100% responsible for making it a crime to publish a version of history which you and the majority of Turks deem inaccurate. most people in Europe intuitively understand that the right to publish something controversial and unpopular should always be protected by law.

    Did Turkey litigate the issue of genocide with the Armenians in international court? Because Serbia did. I am posting a simple summary of the court case for you to be sure it happened. The Court found one massacre to fit the definition of genocide in Bosnia (Srebrenica), found that Serbia was not complicit in the genocide but that it could and failed to prevent it, and found no monetary compensation to be appropriate. Following that verdict, the Serbian parliament passed a resolution in line with that ruling, and on the anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre, then President Tadic visited Srebrenica and issued an apology to the Bosnian Muslims. Today over half the members of the Serbian Parliament accept this verdict and one left liberal party believes Serbia’s fault to be even greater. And the most important difference with Turkey, none of these people, nor journalists who have published similar views, have seen the inside of a jail cell because of that. If Turkey apologized to Armenia or allowed an international court to arbitrate this matter, that would be different.

    As for Cyprus, you still don’t get that NONE (as in zero) of the EU members recognize the Turkish Cypriot state as sovereign. Despite this, once Northern Cyprus approved the peace plan they offered easing in travel restrictions and economic development money for accepting Annan’s peace plan, but of course Cyprus is an EU state not because of the accomplishments of the Turkish, but the Greek Cypriot part of the island, which up until 2004 was deemed to be doing all it could to stabilize its borders. Had the vote happened a little earlier, could it have slowed down Cyprus membership? Possibly, but this starts to be in the realm of speculation and has nothing to do with Turkey’s own reality here.

    And it’s ironic to hear a Turk tell a Serb he is not European enough. There are certainly those Europeans who believe this to be the case, but the reason they think that is because they feel Serbia spent too much time being occupied by Turkey and has become too un-European as a result. You should think about what this means for Turkey’s own prospects to join the EU. Try not to have a heart attack.


  104. avatar
    Christos Mouzeviris

    Kamil, instead of trying to throw mud on Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Cyprus, why don’t just concentrate on trying to explain to others why Turkey should be an EU member and what it has to offer… Your attitude is really putting people off, when you try to find weaknesses in all other EU member states to prove that keeping you out is wrong.. It is not just a economic decision, it is also a political one that will have a huge impact on Europe’s economic, social, historic, cultural fabric… You can not expect them all to be in favor…. It takes time, and some people will always oppose it.. They have the right of their opinion you know.. But by attacking any EU member, especially Greece constantly you are not winning any argument…. And for the record, you were almost bankrupt too and sought an IMF bail out loan… So you see, you are not that much better than anyone else… I am Greek and I support Turkey’s EU membership, but with attitudes like yours I many times wonder if I am mistaken…. Get over the inferiority complex and stop bashing Greece Bulgaria Serbia or any other nation that happen the people who say no to Turkey’s EU membership to be from… I know rejection can be a little bit depressing but instead of attacking, present your country’s best assets, and give them time to digest it… That is in my opinion the best way to convince Europe to accept you, not to constantly bash Greece and Cyprus, that for the record are not your real problem… Austria, Germany and France are… They are he big heavyweights in EU and Europe and their public opinion is still against Turkey’s EU membership…. Try to win their hearts and minds by promoting all that is best in your country, not by bigotry against Greece or Serbia…. And for the record, Serbia is a very European nation indeed and will join soon…. End of story….

  105. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Vicente Silva Tavares unfortunately you distort or mislead my explanations insistly which concerning ?slam.We repeat the viewpoint of oneself meaningsly and we can not arrive anywhere. Firstly i said you the details is so important for debate any subject. Because “the evil is in detail”, isn’t it ? But you like from the totality in every subject. ? speak to look like Kant but you speak to look like Hegel and Marx, While we discuss concerning ?slam and/or Turkey. Besides I’m not a devotee and good Muslim also. ? will go on …

  106. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Christos, I can see why a Greek would want Turkey in the EU – better security, easing tensions, common customs regime, etc. At the end of the day though, because the EU is not an economic but also a political union, there needs to be more of a values convergence between Turkey and the rest, which presently doesn’t exist, and which has grown wider in the last 10 years. I truly wish them all the best but what I want is for the EU not to compromise its core values just to lower the Bar for Turkey to get in. Have Turkey become more European in its political and social value system, not to have the Union become more of a free-for-all in its Justice and Home Affairs angle.

  107. avatar
    Naira Vanbeginne

    Who cares about ure long fairies Kamil???? U just think how it happened that European countries accepted the fact of Armenian Genocide???? U think would they accept it if it is not proven ??? Just try to write short about the reasons why Europe should accept Turkey !!! and leave alone Armenia, the fact of Genocide is out of discussion, even 99 % of turkish intelligence accepted it long before, ure country and its leaders didn’t and still don’t accept it cuz u can’t pay it back as Germans did with jewish, noone cares of the fact that the organizers were not turks and not even muslim, the fact is Turkey did it, everyone knows they became muslims in 3 days, we all know about Trotskii and bolshevik leaders who were eager to create a new Xazar country and they did it by creating azerbajan which has not much to do with muslim as well, at least the leaders and the ones who created it (go ahead and be informed who were the creators and all leaders of that country and ure country as well)…. don’t be smashed, be objective

  108. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Hasan, in the end everything goes to the Quran and the Quran says Muslims (all type of denominations) must convert infidels or kill them until there is only believers in Islam. Against this, everything is rhetoric. I think Turkey must do its own Union. We can be friendly neighbours but not family.

  109. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Mr. Tavares, … the separation Hanif and Maturidi School with Selefists of Sunni Sect had occured so different Muslim communities, Circassians or Turks and Arabs for instance.But like ?ran Shiites is too different a cathegory inside of ?slam too.? said you yes of course Quran is the actual words of Allah for Hanifs also like the others.But there are other sources also for Hanifs of the faith like “k?yas” syllogize or “icma-i ummet” tradition or “rey” individualistical.But the majority of Arabs like Egypt or Saudi believe only surahs and hadiths as sources the faith. Therefore Shiites and Selefists might believe or think or act like you said sometimes. But Hanifs can not think or can not act without under the heel of State of themselves. Therefore Turkey is so different rather than others. Besides the Turkness concept of Republic of Turkey does not expose only ethnic Turks.Once upon a time it was described Circassians, Kurds and others, even the Christians of Turkey also. But Some thieves who the believed Pagan Gods of ethnic Turks claimed themselves as a pure Turk and they have theft and to kill authority in Turkey, despite of State. ? was stealing by them also but were not killed yet. Why ? don’t know too. Ali Alkan who the current President of Court of Cassation of Turkey had judged as in justice my case exactly and ? had trusted to the European Court of Human Rights but Guido Raimondi who the current Vice President of ECHR had rejected my cases without any grounds. Consequently the true religion is not any problem for Turkey, even for EU in my opinion. The problem is misbelief and immorality for everywhere. But if EU is a Christian club, we don’t want to join there already. ?t is the problem of EU, not Turkey. Meanwhile the relationship of Turkey with EU leans some agreements. ?f you will not obey the explanations of yourself, anybody does not trust you any more.

  110. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Vicente Silva Tavares ? had been said you Quran does not think literally for Hanifs and even for Shiites, despite to accept what Quran is the

  111. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    … actual words of Allah like Selefists. Quran is commented by teologists like Aquinas Thomas for Christianity. Only Selefists understand to Quran literally, therefore they wear like inside of the era of Probhet Mohammed still, Saudis for instance. ? hope Europeans have not about ?slam your scare. Perhaps that scare is for you are an atheist or you make a provocation to scare ignorants or on behalf of Masonry. We do not need to be a family, even friendly, if you do not want Turkey. The World is not became only EU. But there is some agreements and “a right of God is of God bur a right of Caesar is of Caesar too” Meanwhile the name of my small son is Sezar “Caesar” :)

  112. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Jovan Yes ? can understand you very well but a lot of people have your doubts , including me. Actually your discourse is more close for me than Kamil. Consequently we are Ottomans actually. Ethnic Turkness discourse stressses either you or me as natural. You are so right for your explanations, except for a few in my opinion. But any answer is absent for our doubts yet. We will wait and we can see. Let’s we shall hope the our awareness is not too late for Turkey, even for EU. “Fair play” :)

  113. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Naira: You need to get real. Armenian lobbies pressurize clueless politicians of countries with their one-sided views to have resolutions passed. These third party politicians move with entirely different motives, mostly to be able to get re-elected by getting the votes of the Armenian diaspora within their nation and to be able to put an end to the non-stop bugging, it’s entirely a political recognition which does not have any meaning. Armenians only work in political field to have their claims recognized, they run away from the table when you offer scientific research by neutral historians. This is also why they refuse to open their archives to public while Turkey did so. Unless you are an Armenian, you need to stop being influenced by the propaganda and start looking at the issue with a clear mind by listening to both sides.

  114. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Christos: I mentioned in my earlier post that Greece supports Serbia and Turkey supports Bosnia, it is one of the well known Balkan alliances. Watch Eurovision voting if you by any chance missed these alliances. You being a Greek, naturally you will say positive things about Serbia while the rest of Europe will bash both Serbia and Greece. Serbia does not share most European values, period. It is among the least developed European nations, period. And surely it will join EU because it is a small fish that EU wants to absorb, their membership won’t do any good or bad for EU, won’t even be felt because they are insignificant. Facts are facts. Unlike Greece, they can’t go bankrupt after joining because they don’t even have that potential.

  115. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Jovan: What does it matter how many times I edited my posts? Just read the last version. Some people edit and then post, some post and keep editing. Doesn’t make any difference as long as you go with the final product. Seriously, you are wasting time with things that don’t matter. As for your question, Turkey did offer repeatedly to form a committee of neutral historians to research the so-called Armenian genocide and opened its archives to benefit any unbiased research. Armenians keep their archives closed and immediately run away from the table when they are faced with this offer because they know that it will put an end to their claims, and then head back to their favorite.. the politicians who are the well-known corrupt liars. Armenians’ only hopes go through the clueless politicians that they pressurize to pass resolutions in an issue which they have no idea about what really happened, the only resource of these politicians is the Armenians that pressurize them, they feed them with their one-sided twisted version of history and then attempt to show the outcome as proof of what took place in history. If you actually fall for this game, it is either you are really naive or that you welcome the anti-Turkish material. As for Cyprus, they didn’t accept the internationally recognized Annan plan because they still have the mentality that caused the division to begin with. Greek Cypriots want to reunite the island but do not want to give enough rights to their Turkish Cypriot minority (1/3 of the population). Under the conditions, Turkish Cypriots do not want to be part of a regime which has shown what it’s capable of doing back at the time, there is a trust issue. Once you fire a cashier for stealing, you don’t hire him back with promises that he is better, especially if you see no change in mentality. Turkish Cypriots are happy as things are, they don’t beg for recognition or anything, do you realize that Cyprus is seriously bankrupt today just like Greece? If they were back together, it would do more bad than good for Northern Cyprus. And again, Serbia is geographically 100% European but Serbians do not share most European values. Europe is a continent with a ton of different nations whose values vary greatly, Norway is absolutely uncomparable to Italy, UK is absolutely uncomparable to Greece. As you keep moving south and east, values are in harmony with your neighbours. Greece is far more like Turkey than anyone else for instance, quite identical in most ways, you can not really call Greece European unless you call Turkey European. EU membership increased wages there rapidly and they lived a fake wealth for a while and now they are bankrupt while Turkey has been making a steady progress instead. In reality, both Greece and Turkey are ages different than Scandinavians per say or the rest of Europe. So it’s absurd to talk about being European to begin with. But, Serbia has its place towards the bottom when it comes to common European values, whatever you can make out of it. It’s all a big game people are trying to play while most realize that it’s not realistic. Like I said before, although members are all different and not at all compatible, the union is there to face issues together and have a common fate. We’ve seen that it doesn’t work but the big fish are still trying while the small fish are watching and acting like they are actually part of it too. Reason of not abandoning the whole idea is because it will mean major failure, embarrassment, and it will have major economic consequences. All the small countries of Europe do not want to deal with the United States or China individually. So the dream goes on for an uncertain period of time. The only major economies that aren’t a member are Turkey and Russia, getting in Serbia, Croatia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. will not make the slightest change. Do not take it as an insult, it’s the reality. The major economies of the near future are out in the open, they will include China, India, Turkey, Brazil. Only country with a future that may contribute EU is Turkey. And, whether you like it or not, no matter what you post in an online forum, EU will chase Turkey in the near future if it doesn’t dissolve by then. The question is what Turkey’s response will be at that time. For now, Turkey enjoys the benefits of the official candidate status and just plays the game. Already being in Customs Union also contributes to Turkey not caring as much. Turks really did pursue membership in the 90s and early 00s, some think that it is still the case today but it really isn’t, they don’t care anymore and they are not offended because they see their progress and the condition Europe is in.

  116. avatar
    Naira Vanbeginne

    Kamil, I really can’t understnd ure hatred towards Armenians, just go out, walk a bit about Stambul, u will see a lot done and built by Armenians. Have the Armenians ever done harm on turks, the reply is NO, but what u did instead??? the second- in Belgium and Switzerland there aren’t Armenian lobbies but these countries accepted the fact of Genocide, be sure if it was and is not the proven fact the capital of Europe will have never accepted it, here the laws are equal towards everyone, that is for sure !!!! Unlike the USA where there is a huge Armenian Community the country hasn’t accepted it due to political reasons, anyway the fact is accepted by approximately all states !!!! I would advise U not to be influenced by propaganda which spread hatred towards two nations !!!! Armenian archives and also archives all over Europe are open, would u ask ure political elita why they don’t want to open turkish archives???? Don’t try to spread hatred, it’s not right and also don’t undervalue European countries where the fact of Genocide is accepted, just wish to repeat – in Belgium and Switzerland there aren’t Armenian lobbies but these countries accepted the fact of Genocide, be sure if it was and is not the proven fact the capital of Europe will have never accepted it,

  117. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Kamil, it would be interesting, were it possible, to find out how many people who had no strong opinions on Turkey’s membership saw your post and switched to a No. My guess, a forum of this size, at least 4-5. You may find this a surprise, but trying to convince people Turkey should be in the EU by vitroilically lambasting other posters, calling all Europeans prejudiced, singling out those who are “less significant” than you, and your other neighbors like Armenia conspiratorially omnipotent – that doesn’t send a very good image of Turkey. In effect, your rhetoric is giving people who want to keep Turkey out at all costs a very good basis for their argument. And no, I don’t expect you to stop.

  118. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Don’t worry, in a few years the Europe and USA are going to implode. The crisis will be so great that nobody cares about unions. Will be each one “per si”. I just don’t understand Kamil. He is living in the States, so it should be indiferent for him if Turkey will be part of EU or not. Being a Muslim he should promote a union with other Muslim countries, instead he prefers a union with infidels. On one side he is very proud of the Turkey development and says Turkey do not need EU, in that case why he is so fond of Turkey enter in the EU? What Turkey will earn with that? A market? With the actual agreement already have access to the EU market. There was a time with many funds for development but now, all have gone and with the crisis and so many countries, we get peanuts. I already put my self on the shoes of a Turkman and actually the geo-strategy of Erdogan, I have to recognize, is brilliant. Turkey has everything to win being the leader of its own block than entering in the EU with some adversity. In some way, rebuilding the old Ottoman empire.

  119. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Jovan: Nowhere in my posts did I try to convince people that Turkey should be in EU. Seriously. I just said that EU needs Turkey and will need Turkey far more as time passes, I listed all the reasons which you simply ignored because you have a fixed opinion due to your racist views. I always said that Turkey does not need EU, should, and will most likely refuse to join when the time comes. Do not come up with assumptions as to who would switch to what. Perhaps more switched to a NO for Serbia after reading your posts but like I said the only reason nobody cares is that Serbia is little fish, it’s too small and insignificant, although majority of Europeans wouldn’t want Serbia in EU they simply don’t care due to this. Even if you were entirely bankrupt, it would take pocket change of one of the big fish countries to save you. In your mind, Turkey will never have a good image no matter what because you are not a neutral party, you grew up with anti-Turkish sentiments which is very hard for you to get rid of.

  120. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Naira: What hatred are you talking about? I was responding to the Armenians’ hatred towards Turks. Armenians are the ones who accuse Turks of something they didn’t do, Armenians are the ones to keep hatred alive, then they are the ones to accuse Turks of hating them when they are responded to in the same fashion? You are seriously confused. Accuse your neighbour of something he didn’t do, accuse your coworker of something she didn’t do, start spreading lies to third parties, watch them become your sworn enemies. Hundred years ago, Armenians backstabbed Turks, sided with enemy forces during Ottoman Empire’s weakest time, attacked from within the empire, brought the war upon themselves and lost it. What did your grandparents expect when they sided with the enemy of the empire they lived in and started massacring Turks? Armenians miscalculated assuming that Turks will lose the war and they will create Greater Armenia. It was a major risk, it didn’t work, their plan backfired, which since they refuse to accept the consequences of their own actions and attempt to accuse Turks of being the faulty side. It’s like buying a lottery ticket and crying when you lose and asking your money back. Things wouldn’t be any different if you did it within another empire, war is a war, you would have the same outcome unless you are more powerful. Today, you repeat the same mistake, attack Turks with hatred, then accuse Turks of causing hatred when you are responded to and ask why they hate you. You come to a forum to repeat your false accusations and expect to not get responded to. You never change. This is why your fate never changes, you made fame in areas you lived in as liars, cheaters, deceivers. Glendale, California is your major diaspora area in the United States, it’s called Little Armenia. Guess what? It is also a major city of welfare check recipients, insurance fraud, and all sorts of other frauds and scam. Californians are scared of buying a gift card from a supermarket in that area because of Armenian scams which was recently in the news. Those that know you are aware of what you are made of. Stop trying to turn the table around in every issue. No country accepted your bogus genocide for any other reason than Armenian lobby pressure and to get Armenian votes. Why do you think that it happens right before elections? Sarkozy tried and passed a law just before the last election which was overturned by the Constitutional Court of France, after which he lost elections. I already said that you try to show the outcome as a decent recognition, it’s your filthy game, but it’s entirely political in every single case. There was never a historical committee formed because Armenia runs away from the table when it is offered by Turkey, they choose to continue their game only with politicians. And, yes, Armenian archives are still closed to public access when Turkish ones are open. Turks offered in 2010 to form a neutral historical research committee and then go to European courts afterwards, Armenians cut negotiations and ran away from the table right away because once the case is decided and closed they would not be able to pass any resolutions using politicians anymore.

  121. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Vicente: You are coming up with assumptions and trying to drag religion into every argument where it doesn’t belong. What makes you think that I am a Muslim? I am not even slightly religious and I bash all religions at every chance I get because they are all roots of evil in this world. You can’t single out yours. Besides, even though Turks are considered to have that faith, do you realize that majority of them are at the borderline of being agnostic? They do have the main beliefs but the only way you can figure out the religion of majority of Turks is that they don’t eat pork. And are you seriously recommending a religious alliance on here? How low is the discussing getting? Turkish mindset and ideologies are like day and night with Arabs and most other Muslim nations and you are telling them to form a unity with the middle eastern countries just because of the religion? They may look like they share the same religion but in reality they really don’t. Arabs always accuse Turks of messing up the religion and not being true Muslims, Turks are excluded by them for living like Europeans. And here you show up and try to exclude Turks because of their religion as a European. Neither religion nor ethnicity should be the base to form an alliance, otherwise Turks would form one with the many Turkic nations that are former soviet republics. Turks are very well aware that they owe their nation’s major success to becoming secular and distancing themselves from religion. Who in their right mind would take a step back from that? The situation of the middle east is out in the open. Erdogan is not stupid, he is quite the opposite, brilliant as you say but not in the way you think. You may criticize him but he does not have strict ideas, he changes mind in issues he seems to be 100% decided on when you come up with good reasoning. This is why he has been very successful and popular, we are not talking about a dictator here, he was democratically elected. This guy hasn’t been on the list of best leaders in the world for no reason, he wasn’t selected among the top most influential leaders for no reason, Obama doesn’t like him and trust him more than any other world leader for no reason. Turkey is often accused of trying to create a new Ottoman Empire but how realistic is that in today’s world? If Turkey was ruled by such hallucinating maniacs for over a decade, do you think that it would do so well economically and in pretty much every field? Do you assume that your leaders are doing better when your countries are doing far worse? What makes you think that Turks would want to unite with Arabs with which they have been at odds throughout history and always had trust issues? Why would they undermine the success of their nation? They just take side with Arabs in certain issues but so do a lot of other western nations which doesn’t mean that they are in line with those nations, Israel is left alone and only US supports them in their blockade and policies against Gaza for instance. Like I asked earlier, does Russians and Chinese siding with Syria today mean that they are becoming like Syrians? You are far from reality. Such thoughts about Turkey are tales you should not take seriously. You should ignore those sources you heard them from rather than becoming a repeater.

  122. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Turkey has been a strategic target to join as a member to the EU for sixty and goes on still. The intensive of relationship might reduce sometimes as cyclical but it is not cut by any politician, including Mr. Erdo?an. Actually Turkey would be a member the EU already, like Greece, because the occasion was two times in that past. Turkey did not want to join inside of the EU under the cyclical reasons. There is some cyclical reasons to does not join again but that time the reasons is related EU, not Turkey. Probably Turkey will far away from the EU and after US also and it will head to the Russia and/or China,if it does not accept even in the 2023 as a member inside of the EU. Consequently everyone will lose, but Russia and/or China will win.

  123. avatar
    Naira Vanbeginne

    Kamil, u’re mixing everything out and not even possible to catch ure mind, not possible to follow ure ideas, u used to write long and not even on a topic like u heard smth but has no idea how it sounds !!!! Armenian archives are all open to public even on line, in a museum of Genocide,u can follow on line too,here it is http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/index.php would u plz let me know how i can get in touch with ure archives???? and yes, stop spreading hatred !!!! no sense in it !!!!! be a bit tolerant !!! and don’t undervalue Europe, as i told u before, there are no Armenian lobbies and strong communities in Belgium and Switzerland but these countries accepted the fact of Armenian Genocide !!!! I am not going to write u back anymore, there is no sense, 99% of turkish intelligence accept the fact of Genocide, i am not surprised u’re not among them, i am sorry but u’re brain-smashed

  124. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Jokera, you’re wrong exactly. The situation will be even worse than the former Yugoslavia civil war,because US will not allow the leaving of Turkey from the NATO absoluetly. Besides you can not know what speed and too talent of ethnic Turks where over the ruin of State. They proud always how we have been established twenty-four States in the History, without to tell to the ruin of the States.

  125. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Meanwhile in the outcome of course they might win also. Because they have a homesick for the old homeland in Mongolia and miss there always. The ruin might be a occasion to come back to the old homeland of them. China want to exchange between Mongolia and Anatolia as natural :)

  126. avatar
    Gianuario Cioffi

    The problem of Turkey entering in EU is not about religion or foreign policy : there are already Countries wither religious interferences in law (for example the mine, Italy) of with different foreign policies (think about the Palestine recognise)
    Also the Armenia genocide is question similar to the colonial past of other countries (neither Italy has recognized the genocide in Ethiopia) , and Northern Cyprus is de facto an independent Country.

    The only one problem, not compatible with EU, is the Turkish violence in Kurdistan .
    Until Turkey won’t accept the right of speaking in Kurdish and the right of discuss the Kurdistan independence in a pacific way , Turkey won’t be compatible with EU values.

  127. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Gianuario, you must search on internet about terrorism in Turkey. You’ll be surprised.

  128. avatar
    Kamil Ozsoy

    Gianuario: You have neutral positions on other issues rather than taking sides, which is to be appreciated when compared to other participants here who always take side against Turkey in issues which they are clueless about except for the one-sided twisted stories they hear from the other side. But I’m curious as to why suddenly you accuse Turks in the Kurdish trouble in the southeastern portion of their country. PKK, Kurdish terrorist group recognized as such by the US and EU, attacks from the mountainous region of northern Iraq and the Turkish government actively fights back. Are you taking the side of the terrorists in this issue? Are you blaming Turks for not caving into Kurdish demands of dividing their country and handing a portion to them? This is the double standards we are talking about. People support it when it comes to others while they would fiercely fight it themselves if the same issue took place in their country. Kurdistan is an independent de-facto country in northern Iraq which is far more than large enough for the entire Kurdish population of the world, yet Kurds constantly cause terror in the neighbouring countries and demand more land which never belonged to them. They are at odds with every single neighbour surrounding their country for this reason. Turkey does not attack Kurdistan or the peaceful Kurds. Turkish interference is in the mountainous region far from the residential areas where the hide-outs of the Kurdish terrorists are.

  129. avatar
    Jovan Ivosevic

    Debating Europe: Please review Kamil’s comments above: ” This is why your fate never changes, you made fame in areas you lived in as liars, cheaters, deceivers. Glendale, California is your major diaspora area in the United States, it’s called Little Armenia. Guess what? It is also a major city of welfare check recipients, insurance fraud, and all sorts of other frauds and scam. Californians are scared of buying a gift card from a supermarket in that area because of Armenian scams which was recently in the news. Those that know you are aware of what you are made of.” Is disparaging an entire nation of people acceptable in this forum?

  130. avatar
    Debating Europe

    Kamil, we welcome your opinion in this forum, but please do not make generalisations based on people’s race or ethnicity. If you continue to do this, you will be banned. If you see anybody making similar statements, you can report them to a moderator by email at info@debatingeurope.eu

  131. avatar
    Jokera Jokerov

    @Hassan, I`m against Turkey joining the EU, not for Turkey leaving NATO!

  132. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    @Jokera not Hassan, my name is Hasan and it is the name of grandson of Prophet Mohammed also. Besides ethnic Turks are too flexible and opportunist people,the subject is the interests and money,therefore both of them will not separated by them too, namely the EU and the NATO. Probably China and/or Russia will support far too for the leaving of Turkey, like Kirghizistan. Therefore the problem of Turkey is not ?slam religion, the problem is not to be the loyal to the values of Europe right now.?n contrary the tradition of Hanif and Maturidi School of ?slam allow a democracy but ethnic Turks are Alevis or chase the flexible of Mevlana or believe to the old Pagan Gods of ethnic Turks or atheist or agnostic mostly. That flexible results disloyalty for everything, except for the money.

  133. avatar
    Jokera Jokerov

    Sorry for my typo of your name, Hasan!

  134. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Kamil is the one with one sided twisted view. He is forgetting all acts of terrorism in Turkey against not only Kurds but, also against journalists, students, teachers and left wing intellectuals particularly done by the Grey Wolves, a neo-fascist terrorist organization that looks for the recreation of the Greater Turkey that goes to Siberia and all the central Asia. It has been supported by the Turkish Governments and the secrete police, it has the sympathy of the common police, their ties to the mafia are known and is connected to the MHP party which is its legal face. The torturing and killing of many left-wing partisans and sympathizers are among their crimes. In 81, 220 Grey Wolves were charged by the Military Government of 694 assassinations. They also were the ones that in 96 killed over 100 migrant workers in Maras for being accused of its left-wing sympathies (kurds and Sunites). In the same year they attacked Istambul University students and teacher for the same reason: left sympathizers. They claim to kill 2 Kurds everyday, not only PKK sympathizers but even Kurds working on charity organizations.
    They created in several European countries and USA ?idealist clubs? to indoctrinate young Turks of the Turkish Diaspora, its neo-fascist ideology. Kamil is likely a member of these clubs. This is only one of the Turkish terrorist organizations but there are several other from Al-Qaeda, the Great Eastern Islamic Raiders Front (IBDA-C) who claim many bombings and wants to impose a religious government and restore the Caliphate. I suppose they are a little bit more happy with Ergogan now. Ergenekom connected with the Secret Police and behind many assassinations of judges, politicians, intellectuals etc. The Turkish Hizbollah had been violent for many years, but since Erdogan is in power has been more peaceful. The Turkish Revenge Brigade (TIT) another ultra-nationalist organization has been responsible for more than 1000 murders in the 70s. In 93 they murdered the parliamentary deputy Mehmet Sincar and the journalist Ferhat Tepe in cooperation with Turkish Hizbollah. Most civilized countries advise to restrict travelling to Turkey to the Western seashore and avoid all other parts of Turkey. Is this country deeply involved with terrorism, neo-fascism, religious parties, dreams of a Greater Turkey the country we should welcome with open arms in the democratic union of Europe?

  135. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    @ Jokera never mind. ? had should added :) after my first sentence but it was . anyway unfortunately ! Besides the reason of case of Ergenekon of Turkey is it was organised by some lunatics the leaving of Turkey where from the NATO. But US did not allow as natural.

  136. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    Vicente Silva Tavares as stated above of you Ergenekon gang had been assasinated against a lot of people for a provocation of community and to seize the State willpower. But my as stated above the firsth purpose of them was as a whole to seize of ethnic Turks to the State potency. Furthermore this the potency was to sell Russia and/or China rather than US and/or EU. The this branch of Ergenekon had depended on CHP unfortunately.The old fascist ties of Germany had served to the Ergenekon too, namely MHP.Germany had supported them, despite of the EU.But the most important situation that’s there are some the gang members the inside of AKP also.Therefore some ethnic Turks think Ergenekon gang are heroes still. The assasinations are stuff and nonsense, namely “fasa fiso” for them. For example although actually a head responsible, Mehmet A?ar who old Minister of ?nterior was convicted only for forgery. Unfortunately the deep State of Turkey is alive, Mr. Erdo?an looks like how had compromised with them, to elect as a President in 2014. Some tracks can find inside of my case files in the Second Section of ECHR, application number 23064/08.

  137. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    You know Hasan, all modern and democratic people of Turkey, have my sympathy, but unfortunately for them, the future won’t be very nice for them. Many times I wished to be born in another country. I am sure, some of you thought as well.

  138. avatar
    Hasan Özdemir

    You are right Mr. Tavares in my opinion unfortunately. Yes we would wish to be in any the country of EU also absoluetly, above like you said. ?t looks like almost like impossible righ now.Therefore ?’m interesting concerning the quantity of the evil for Turkey, namely i have to elect one of the evils.Meanwhile who knows, perhaps i might save at least my famil than the evil but Europe should save from the organised immorality right now.

  139. avatar
    Maro Kouris

    Ziya Gkalp (born Mehmed Ziya; March 23, 1876 ? October 25, 1924) was an Ottoman sociologist, writer, poet, and political activist. Gkalp rejected Ottomanism and Islamism in favor of Turkish nationalism. Turanism forms an important aspect of the ideology of the Turkish Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), whose members are informally known as Grey Wolves. Grey Wolf (the mother wolf Asena) was the main symbol of the ancient Turks.Turkish proponents of scientific racism claimed that this racial group embraced the Ottoman Turks of Istanbul and Anatolia, the Turcomans of Central Asia and Persia, the Tartars of South Russia and Transcaucasia, the aboriginal tribes of Siberia and even the distant Mongols and Manchus. The Turkic peoples are a collection of ethnic groups that live in northern, eastern, central and western Asia, northwestern China and parts of eastern Europe. It is generally agreed that the first Turkic people lived in a region extending from Central Asia to Siberia with the majority of them living in China historically.

  140. avatar
    Maro Kouris

    Historically the Turks were established after the 6th Century BC. The earliest separate Turkic peoples appeared on the peripheries of the late Xiongnu confederation (contemporaneous with the Chinese Han Dynasty). Turkic people may be related to the Xiongnu, Dingling and Tiele people. Scientific genetic results show clearly that the Turks originated nearby the centre -west part of modern China. Turkic peoples and related groups migrated west from Turkestan and what is now Mongolia towards Eastern Europe, Iranian plateau and Anatolia and modern Turkey in many waves. Many of the Turkic peoples have their homelands in Central Asia, where the Turkic peoples settled from China. The Turks were originally a small tribe of only five hundred families, and they became serfs to the Rouran, who used them as iron-workers. It is thought that the original meaning of “Turk” is “helmet”, and that they may have taken this name because of the shape of one of the hills near which they worked.

  141. avatar
    Maro Kouris

    Some 170 million people have a Turkish language as their native language. At present, there are six independent Turkish countries: Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Uzbekistan. The Turks in Turkey are over 60 million to 70 million worldwide, while the second largest Turkic people are the Azerbaijanis, numbering 22 to 38 million worldwide; most of them live in Azerbaijan and Iran.

  142. avatar
    Maro Kouris

    The Young Turks, espous the notion of Turanism, a mythic glorification of Turkish ethnic identity, and was devoted to restoring the Ottoman Empire’s shattered national pride. Turanism forms an important aspect of the ideology of the Turkish Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), whose members are informally known as Grey Wolves. Grey Wolf (the mother wolf Asena) was the main symbol of the ancient Turks. Persian sources show that the ancient Turan (Turania) corresponded roughly to the Russian Turkestan of to-day. There are only 8,000,000 Osmanli Turks in Asia Minor. The primitive religion of the Turanians is called Shamanism because its distinctive feature is the agency of the Shaman, a wizard priest, whose services are required to influence the supernatural powers.Witchcraft predominates in this religion, it being the function of the Shaman to master all that in nature is hostile to man, to curb the elements, to conjure spirits, to produce health or disease, fortune or misfortune. The Shamanist operates mainly against demons, but he also believes in higher gods, whom he calls to his aid by means of prayer and sacrifice. Ancestor worship is, moreover, a characteristic feature of Shamanism. An important instrument in the rites of the Shaman is the drum, by means of which he can summon spirits, and compel them to give active assistance. Shamanism is still found in all the Asiatic branches of the Turanian family.

  143. avatar
    Maro Kouris

    As the secular Ziya Gkalp says – “For the Turks, Fatherland means neither Turkey, nor Turkestan; Fatherland is a large and eternal country–Turan”. Ziya Gokalp called for destroying Russia in the interest of pan-Turkism, as seen in his K?z?l Destan (“Red Epic”) writings. which the secular Turkish military, Turkish Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), and the Grey Wolves all espouse to.

  144. avatar
    Maro Kouris

    NEVER.. since they are NOT EUROPEAN. Independence and full sovereignty for Kurdistan from Fascist Turkey, Dictatorial Syria, Ruined Iraq and Theocratic Iran. The Kurds need their own federalised nation state where they can live in peace and liberty. Turkish governments have from the past adopted a sustained genocide program against Kurds, aimed at their assimilation, via the violent Turkish repression of any Kurdish resistance.. US Congressman Bob Filner spoke of a “cultural genocide”, stressing that “a way of life known as Kurdish is disappearing at an alarming rate”. Turkey has had a forced assimilation program for the Kurds, which involves, among other things, a ban of the Kurdish language, and the forced relocation of Kurds to non-Kurdish areas of Turkey. All Kurdis in all Kurdistan need to take advantage of the turmoil now in Turkey that has divided the Islamist Turks against the secularist Turks and seek independence while Turkey is weak, as well as the Kurds in Syria, along with liberated Kurdistan in Iraq, and create a federal Kurdistan made up of 3 Kurdish states, each with their own administrative centre , and have one capital city that will oversea the 3 states of Kurdistan within a federalised Kurdish nation with a Capital city in the centre of Kurdistan The sooner the better for everyone.

  145. avatar
    Ieva Klumbyte

    People are ready and the Government -no

  146. avatar
    George Bariz

    No..is not..i think will never be

  147. avatar
    Gregory Mason

    No, no and no. They should give back Constantinople for a start.

  148. avatar
    Robert Diaz

    The people are ready but the Govt is not ready to join

  149. avatar
    Lefteris Eleftheriou

    how can Turkey join an organisation (EU) without firstly recognising its borders? Turkey does not recognise Cyprus nor the sea borders of Greece. This means that Turkey does not accept the South Eastern borders of the EU as an organisation. How can you join if you do not recognise these first?
    In addition Turkey is responsible for at least 3 genocides – Armenians, Greeks and Kurds. Turkey can NEVER hope to join unless they accept their guilt (like Germany accepted responsibility for the Holocaust) and compensate the people that suffered (and in the case of Kurds still suffer).

  150. avatar
    Maro Kouris

    The French will always say NON!!!

  151. avatar
    Fidelis Erga Patria

    TURKEY NEVER SHOULD BE PART OF EUROPE .. NEVER .. and there is no need for this. We don’t need this. Turkey stay where you are!

  152. avatar
    Luisa Salvini

    Sure!!but right now it is better be outside Eu….

  153. avatar
    Dory Moutran

    When it will ask Armenians forgiveness and give them back their lands! In the mean time, the EU can keep teasing them about being 15 years away from membership

  154. avatar
    Gizem Okumuş

    the people on the streets are drawing a picture that they are ready to be a part of the EU, however the governors are totally opposite of this picture.

  155. avatar
    Zdenek Sulc

    No, EU is EU, no euro-asian union.

  156. avatar
    Mila Damjanoska

    I don’t think they want to, for the same reasons why Norwegians didn’t want Norway to be part of the EU.

  157. avatar
    Kübra Gedikaslan

    Firstly you must learn Turkish History truly then judge. We NEVER give any part of our country to other nations. DO NOT DREAM !!

  158. avatar
    Maria Maia

    People are, I think, but governments no!

  159. avatar
    Ionel Nicu Sava

    after the turmoil, hope turkey will came back to european values

  160. avatar
    Davey Brown

    Given the Islamists in the Turkish government you would be allowing a fox in the hen house. It’s pretty academic anyway as UK’s inevitable departure will signal the end of the federal nightmare.

  161. avatar
    George Bariz

    thei never have the european values…

  162. avatar
    Lamai Saimir

    The question should be: Is european union ready to be a union. Regarding Turkey, europeans are hypocrites since they cooperate selectively with them couse E.U need turkish market while important political issues are unable to overcome their stereotypes.

  163. avatar
    Robert John Dalton

    Too Conservative, and their recent treatment of the Kurdish population in the east has been appalling. They are not ready yet.

  164. avatar
    David Fuzzey

    Turkeys entry will be a disaster for the eu , so I fully support their entry :)

  165. avatar
    Bianca Lima

    No it’s not. Im a law student and in my opinion, the conservative policies of the Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan means there are aspects related to the functioning of the public and the judiciary to improve, there’s need to develop crucial reforms in the functioning of democracy and protection of human rights and the struggle against corruption, the need for political transparency and faster and more effective justice, the improvement of anti-discrimination laws regarding gender, sexual orientation and ethnic and religious minorities, and public administration reform. All this, together with the Kurdish problem, makes Turkey not ready to join the European Union.

  166. avatar
    Lucília Gonçalves

    os turcos que sabem! mas a UE no, pelas circunstncias actuais, no est preparada para anexar qualquer outro pas.

  167. avatar
    Ignasi Meda

    I’m pretty astonished about how many of you think Turkey cannot become (in the future) an European country, as if Europe was a ?pure? place, with no conflicts and no problems at all. By the way, how many of you have been living in Turkey so far? Nice! So you?re reproducing only what you?ve heard from media.

  168. avatar
    António Carujo

    Ignasi, I don’t have to live in Turkey to have an opinion. Plus, the media is important for me to have an enlighted opinion, otherwise how could i have an opinion at all?

  169. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    Of course not! But they would be crazy if they joined to already sick and dieying institution.

  170. avatar
    Vicente Silva Tavares

    On surveys done in Turkey, only 48% of Turks want to join EU. At the same time, 98% confess they do not trust Christians. Now tell me, beside the geographical reasons, how can Turkey join an organization where most countries and Peoples are Christians, when they say almost all, they do not trust Christians? If anybody had read the Quran, knows it is written for several times, that is a must for all Muslims to convert or kill all infidels. I do not pretend to convert to Islam, threfore I am a target to be killed. How can I be in favour of Muslim Turks to get in if their major intention is to kill infidels (us)?

  171. avatar
    Iveta Iva

    no, or at least in near future

  172. avatar
    Naira Vanbeginne

    From Serj Tankian https://www.facebook.com/SerjTankian?fref=ts Not surprising that a government that puts journalists in jail indiscriminately and denies its Genocide of 1.5 million Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians doesn’t hesitate to use force against peaceful demonstrators. Gezi park in Taksim Square, with its surrounding international hotels, was built on an old Armenian cemetery. It’s impossible to hide the bones of your past with your current demeanor.
    I am appalled by Obama’s closeness to this hypocrite named Erdogan, Turkey’s Prime Minister.

  173. avatar
    Davey Brown

    The way the Islamists are testing the patience of the civilised world, I think it more likely there will be mass expulsions rather than further expansion of the EU. Sweden is in flames and the UK is on the verge of civil war following recent events, France is a tinderbox and Holland is also having issues. While I admire the Turkish people’s stand against their Islamist politicians it is unrealistic to expect EU accession. The EU is going to descend into chaos sooner rather than later.

  174. avatar
    Antonio Jose Pecurto Pecurto

    O projeto da Europa deve seguir em frente lamentvel o que se passa na Turquia e noutros paises da Europa at me parece que estou a olhar para a Europa de cabesa para baixo a construo parece-me dificil com esses desafios dirios como as medidas de austeridade em todos os estados da UE mesmo assim ainda temos razes de acreditar no projeto da Europa

  175. avatar
    Spyros Tsakos

    No i don’t think that Turkey will be in EU due to social and cultural reasons, besides EU must reform itself first rather than expand.

  176. avatar
    Raquel Cortés Herrera

    Haven’t you read any newspapers or watched the news these last days???!!!

  177. avatar
    Nikolaos Sotirelis

    Turkish citizens are giving a very difficult fight against the forces of regression. Instead of provoke them with stupid dilemmas, it would be better to support them!

  178. avatar
    Gina Stodinetchi

    It is better for Turkey and turkish people to stay away form Europe. While Europe is collapsing, Turkey develops. And to see it go on a trip by bus. I was last year.Is amazing

  179. avatar
    Miguel Neves de Oliveira

    For me, Turkey should not join EU. Why bringing to the Union non democratic regime, more instability, Kurdish genocide, a different civilization, a huge army, conflicts with Greece, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Armenia …

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