Immigration will be a key issue in the run-up to the British referendum on the EU. The UK is not a member of the passport-free Schengen zone, so it retains border controls and checks, and Britain has refused to take part in any EU scheme to reallocate refugees from the war in Syria (though it has separately promised to resettle 20,000 refugees by 2020). Furthermore, immigration from outside of Europe is not affected by Britain’s EU membership.

However, citizens from other EU countries have the right to live and work in Britain (just as British citizens have the right to settle elsewhere in the EU). In 2014, net migration from other EU countries to the UK was 174,000 (almost as high as net migration from non-EU countries to the UK, which stood at 194,000). Studies have been published suggesting that EU migrants are net contributors to the British economy, but critics argue that there are other negative impacts from high net immigration, such as social cohesion, strains on education, healthcare, and other public services, and the pricing of low-skilled British labour out of the market.

Have you already made your mind up which way to vote? Do YOU think Britain should leave the European Union? Let us know what you think in the poll below:

We had a comment sent in from Mike in Lancashire, who believes that leaving the European Union would finally help Britain “regain control of our borders”. He argues that Britain could allow highly-skilled labour to come in, but turn away low-skilled workers and those with criminal convictions:

Image of a citizenWe will regain control of our borders in so far as we can decide who enters the UK and for what reason. We could grant work permits to those holding the skills we desire. We could eject criminals back to their birth countries with greater ease…

To get a response, we spoke to Mike Hookem, a Member of the European Parliament with the UK Independence Party (UKIP). Would leaving the EU give Britain “control of its borders” again?

mike-hookemIt’s the only way to gain control of our borders. Starting in 1995 with the Tories removing embarkation controls to the legislation which makes it illegal for us to deny entry to anyone from an EU country even if they are a murderer – which had such tragic consequences for Alice Gross and her family [NOTE: Alice Gross was a 14-year-old British schoolgirl murdered in 2014, the prime suspect being a Latvian builder who had previously been convicted of murder]. The EU now have a common immigration and asylum policy and our border is basically the external border of the EU which may soon include Turkey, if David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn get their way.

To get another perspective, we also spoke to Stephen Kinnock, a British Labour MP for for Aberavon. How would he respond to Mike?

kinnockIt’s quite difficult for me to answer that question because I don’t know what sort of model a post-Brexit UK will have. But, if we look at the possible models, I think they fit broadly into two buckets. One is what’s generally called the ‘Norway model’ – the Swiss model is very close to it, so let’s for the sake of argument call it the ‘Norway model’. Under the terms of the model, Norway is part of the European Economic Area (EEA) which gives it access to the Single Market, so you have all the economic benefits [of EU membership]. However, part of the deal is that you must also accept free movement of people. So, Norway is actually in Schengen, even though it’s not inside the European Union… There would be no change in terms of control of our borders, so what is the point of Brexit?

The other model is what people call the ‘Canada model’, or it could be China, Singapore, or any country which has a trading relationship with the EU but is not part of the Single Market. Now, you could have far greater control of your borders, and you would not have to accept free movement of people. But, you would lose access to the Single Market and have to start creating trade arrangement with every single one of the other 27 members of the EU, and let’s not forget that accounts for 50% of our trade. And, in each case, every single product would also be subject to a tariff, just as any Canadian product has to pay a tariff usually of between 10% and 20% on any goods they are exporting. Now that would, I believe, lead to a collapse of the British economy, because if you suddenly have to add between 10% and 20% onto every single one of your products that you’re trying to export, nobody is going to be buying your products in the EU, which is 50% of your market. So, yes, you might get control of your borders in terms of immigration under that model, but the downside would be the total collapse of the British economy, which I think is a pretty big price to pay…

How would leaving the EU affect immigration in Britain? Would the UK be forced to sign up to Freedom of Movement rules anyway? Or could it negotiate a better deal than Norway and Switzerland? Let us know your thoughts and comments in the form below and we’ll take them to policymakers and experts for their reactions!

536 comments Post a commentcomment

    • A Tayar

      The.Commonwealth doesn’t need the UK. This is an illusion on your part, the image many Brits have that they still rule an empire.

    • Yasmine

      well, said tayar, it’s all about me, me, me…how much money can I make out of this. miserable scrooge sitting in the corner.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @A Tayar
      No! That’s the mistaken image that YOU have on the image British people have about the Commonwealth!

    • Stephen

      1. We share thousands of years of common history with Europe, we’ve been tightly bound in an equal relationship to European countries politically and economically since Saxon times. Commonwealth countries see us as the old master and this appears to affect our trade negatively. Re: Opening up new trade opportunity for a non EU England would be very difficult- where it’s easy then it has already happened.We will become poorer
      2. My experience of economic migration is the opposite. It means access to a large pool of hard working, reliable and often really well educated, culturally nuanced staff, to low paid work like cleaning, care, shop work and kitchen work. A points base process involving the immigration service to rate points for a cleaning job and then advertising in different countries around the world to advertise for a cleaner sounds expensive and much less competitive and will drive up pay.
      Aside from the cleaners, car wash, carer and healthcare assistants and shop who come here to work hard and earn a reasonable living. From talking to my plumber and builder there’s been a definite competitive pressure on these services from EU citizens getting on their bike and coming to work here. My plumber still gets paid well but it means I can afford him. So no my experience at home, work and out in town is that economic migration tends to bring the people who have a bit of gumption and are willing to ‘get on their bike’

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      YOU like the EU because

      EU-immigration into the EU has manifested wage compression that allows you to employ cheaper labour – you’re alright JackI

    • Stephen

      People who come and work are not deadbeats. They are care workers, nurses, healthcare assistants, doctors,social workers. They are an essential part of our social and care services.

    • Stephen

      Tarquin (lovely Latin name) that’s a fairly reductionist response can you elaborate in a persuasive way?

    • Perky

      Norway is in the EEA and has had to conceed to free movement and rights of workers, and are constrained by those rules for which they have no say. Switzerland too has bilateral agreements with the EU which they had to conceed to get market access. Both countries have a far higher percentage of immigration per population than the UK. It’s often quoted that Norway and Switzerland are ‘outside of the EU’ but they’re not really. Switzerland’s government tried to set quotas for immigarion (last year), and were told by the EU that was against the rules and if they tried would invalidate all the other agreements as they were tied together, and that would mean losing free access to the single market. So this point, free movement and workers rights,is non-negotiable as far as the EU is concerned when it comes to free market access.

      The reality is we too would have to agree to this to get tariff free access to the market, which we absolutely need to remain competitive in that large market. And, like Norway and Switzerland, abide by the rules. We would also have no say in what the rules are if we were to leave.

      It’s often said that we could negotiate ourselves and come up with a trade deal with the EU. That is certainly true IF we weren’t in the EU to start with. If we come out and then be allowed to have a favourable deal that doesn’t respect the founding principles, that would show other countries that it’s possble to exit the EU and access the market without substantial penalty. Other countries may well follow. Those EU countries whose economic and social well being depend entirely on the success of the EU project will NOT therefore allow a ‘third way’. Also there’ll be no political will for the EU to give us anything like favourable terms in bilateral agreements like Switzerland for the same reason. So the only credible alternative is for us post Brexit is to join the EEA and be subject the same rules for free movement and workers rights that we do now.

      There is a lot of talk here about sending people home, that won’t happen as they are covered by the Vienna Convention which allows people to retain their rights to stay even if there is a treaty change. So no change in those numbers either.

      Where does that leave the Brexit campaigners? They’re focusing heavily on immigration after failing to gain ground on the economic arguments, but we will have to conceed to free movement and workers rights to gain unfettered access to the single market anyway. Immigration post Brexit will remain unchanged, we’d still be bound to follow EU rules on immigation and workers rights (which BTW we will have no say in whatsover, which in theory means things like the Working Time Directive individual opt-out that we’re currently blocking may well get imposed on us without us having any say in it), unless we withdraw completely from the single market which, because of the arguments above, is necessarily from an EU perspective going to be prohibitively costly and will involve tariffs.

      We are unfortunately small fry when it comes to the potential of the whole EU project collapsing, to deny that the EU would not seek to prevent it is to deny the existence of self preservation.

    • Iulian Scutelnicu

      I’m a romanian living and working in Wales for 10 years. Believe me I was completely disappointed when the work market opened to Romania, just because I knew that the gypsies will invade Britain. All the newspaper articles present “roma”nians claiming benefits, sleeping in the streets and committing crimes, however no-one is talking about the people who actually work here and are well seen in the community.
      The people from the article you shared are in fact “romani”, not romanians. Read about the difference here
      I truly hope that you will visit Romania and meet romanians, I promise you a wonderful experience as they are welcoming and warm.
      As for the Brexit I’m LEAVE and I hope that Romania will follow the example of Britain, as EU destroyed our economy. The price we pay is that we import everything even if we are situated in a great agricultural location, we have the Carpathians crossing the country and we have large access to the Black sea.
      If UK leaves it may affect me and my family, however I prefer to take the risk, rather then being judged every day for being a romanian!

    • Gary

      Well if the Daily Mail says something then it must be true…

    • michael conway

      Britain thought nothing of so called colonizing other countries for hundreds of years so surely they can accept being colonized now

    • Chris Brown

      to Michael Conway. You make the case against you. If those being colonised had the means to object effectively, object they would have done.
      (with a few interesting exceptions, but the British dealt unfairly with them too.
      I’m British and I can say that.)

    • Bollygood

      Lets be honest here… the problem is not immigration, the problem is Muslim immigration. All other migrants make the effort to integrate, you don’t see other non-Muslim people preaching on the streets trying to spread Islam and trying to convert people to Islam. This is real and this happens everyday. I am asian myself, this is not about racism, this is about a religion and a culture of people who’s aim is to spread and convert people to Islam and in doing so, they have spread fear and hatred. That’s why we hear about it constantly on a daily basis. I hate the fact that people cannot tell the difference between Asians, we may all be brown but we are not all muslims. So don’t blame all migrants, it is only muslims who preach , try to enforce their ideologies in the UK. If people cannot be bothered to integrate like wearing a full face veil as if there is something to hide, they should not be here in the UK.

    • Indian

      You have more in common socially and culturally with western Europe than countries in the commonwealth, tbh.

    • Maggie

      These people you see sleeping on the streets are 100% not Romanians-they are gypsies that have come from India and settled in Romania. Unfortunately they are categorised as Romanians only because of their Passport status. It’s humiliating for us to have such a bad stigma created because of gypsies calling themselves Romanian.

    • Alison Rixon

      A Tayar that’s quite right. As an Australian, Britain is quite irrelevant to us. We are part of Asia which is a dynamic growing region and our interests are here.

    • zorba

      You may share more of a social and cultural identity with people from the 53 countries of the commonwealth than with anyone from the EU, but I don’t.

      I was born here, my mother is English, I have a British passport, and I have lived and worked in this country for over fifty years. Anyway, I and am clearly just a “deadbeat” to you, as my father is Greek.

      Until recently, I was just as happy to regard myself as English as you seem to be. But now I don’t, because of people like you. I fed up with hearing all of the nationalistic and anachronistic crap that you people are still clinging on to to justify the biggest mistake this country has ever made.

    • katherine coutts

      Except that the British are in the main of Anglo Saxon stock and also Scandinavian and French. We are in fact Europeans.

    • Clare Hartley

      Anyone from outside the EU now has to earn the minimum of £35,000 otherwise be deported. So much for the idea of replacing EU citizens with Commonwealth citizens. What deal comes out from Brexit regarding EU citizens and British expats is anyone’s guess.

    • toft

      Are you really saying Britain has more in common with Jamaica or Uganda than with Germany or France ?

    • Chris Brown

      @Stephen. “! we’ve been tightly bound in an equal relationship to European countries politically and economically since Saxon times. ”
      When someone has said that…
      The Saxon times ended with the Norman **invasion**.
      Since we’ve been at war with (and mostly allies with as well, at different times)
      Spain, Portugal (civil wars), France, The Netherlands, Germany and precursor components of Germany, Denmark, and even notionally at war with Sweden.
      Where was this peculiar Europe you describe?
      It’s nothing to build a case for current decisions on, if it’s anything at all.

    • Stephen

      Yes Chris that’s precisely the point I was making we are tightly wrapped up with our neighbours in conflict and cooperation. Culturally,historically, politically, linguistically, socially and economically were are part of Europe and Europe is part of us.

    • Chris Brown

      @ Stephen: “Culturally,historically, politically, linguistically, socially and economically were are part of Europe and Europe is part of us.”

      We agree. But I think the EU itself is not the right institution or mechanism within which to try to develop this. It is too wayward in its objectives, its bureaucracy and its forcing the pace of change.
      Too much, too fast, in the wrong direction and not well executed anyway.

      In WW1 Britain went to war after its declaration of supporting and defending Belgium. was ignored.
      In WW2 Britain went to war after its declaration of supporting and defending Poland was ignored.
      Seems pretty European, that.

    • Stephen

      If we remained in the EEA – we would be required to maintain the same type of immigration relationship as is the case for Norway. I am very concerned about the economic implications of this and I don’t see a realistic plan to address this.

  1. Andrej Němec

    You will have 2,2 million fresh UK nationals (actually mostly retired people, economic migrants to Southern Europe, you will have to take care of) ready to return home.. Also, by putting a border in Ulster, you might have very unpleasant surprises from the currently dormant I.R.A. because I don’t think they will appreciate very much to see a wall dividing a Nation in its own land that you are illegally occupying…

    • Paul X

      I think you will find retired people are not economic migrants. People do not retire to Spain for the fantastic benefits the Spanish government gives them, they retire there for the weather and to spend their pensions (to the net benefit of the local economy)

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Andrej Němec

      Basketcase economies like Portugal are actively advertising for OAPS to come and live there tax-free because said OAPs give their febrile economy a boost!

      The millions of EU ‘in-continentalists’ currently resident in the UK can apply for citizenship but the UK can decide on who to have – depending on their skills, ability, criminality and loyalty. If they don’t measure up then they can ‘do-one’.

      As regards your silly IRA prediction – research at how existing NI extremists currently already deal with errant EU continental ne’er-do-wells and no such imaginary wall exists today!

      With the continued German-sanctioned wild-West immigration policy currently happening, I reckon its much more likely that the IRA will start venting their pro-Irish nationalist spleen against the hordes of EU foreigners currently in both NI and Eire.

    • Flamingreen

      I very British pensioners will be thrown out of Spain! Firstly they bring much needed spending money to Spain and secondly we could retaliate by throwing out the many young Spanish and Brazilians who hold Spanish passports and live here!

    • Zoe Morgan

      The British, people living in Southern Europe, are usually retired Brits, financially secure and owning property. I’m sure the host countries would not be happy to see the back of them, as they contribute to their economy, unlike the poor, uneducated, unskilled migrants that the UK, has had to accept. If Trump, can build a wall between Mexico and the US, I’m sure the UK, can do likewise! Illegally occupying N.I,?? get real, the people WANT to remain under British control!

    • Stephen

      Yes I am concerned about this aspect too- 75% of health care spending occurs in the last decade or so of life and it would be disastrous if this group of people suddenly landed on the NHS due to forced repatriation.

    • Maureen McCartney

      We do not and will not need to enforce a border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. Neither Ireland nor the UK are in the Schengen area and we have reinforced the agreements from 1922 and 1952 for the “Common Travel Area” which allows free movement between members of the UK, Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

      15/11/2017 John Bruton, former Irish Prime Minister (Taoiseach), has responded to this comment.

    • rusty

      I voted remain. I like being a part of europe, and now we are once again stand alone. nothing will change, except one thing. the UK will not be a part of a collective that has one aim…..Peace. Who went to war with the USA? again and again?. We always were closer to the Americans, maybe we should build a tunnel to them instead?. Immigration is about to get ugly, it is not going away, and now will increase, just as London becomes a whole lot less influential as its mainly French city workers begin their exodus along with 1 million other trained professionals, leaving us Island monkeys with debt, we will be begging to the IMF before the year is out

    • Chris Brown

      To Rusty. Lets look at this. “I like being a part of europe” You still are. The EU is not Europe, never was. “now we are once again stand alone.” the most critical time we needed help from EU we didn’t get it, and France gave assistance to th eenemy.
      “a part of a collective that has one aim…..Peace.”
      If you think that is the one or even main aim you have not studied the EU, pareticularly the wrods of its leaders.

      ” Who went to war with the USA? again and again?”
      We’ve fought against the USA twice, and been on their side about five times, at least one of which we shouldn’t have . “We always were closer to the Americans” well, apart from when we were fighting them. And American policies in South America, and …

      ” Immigration is about to get ugly, it is not going away, and now will increase,” Our only hope for some control was to leave EU. It was one of the big problens with the EU: an idealistic principle mace dogmatic.

      French entrepreneurs have done their start-ups in UK because of French bureaucracy. They will still have incentive to stay.
      Have you seen the French protests at proposed changes to labour law? UK is more stable and more business-friendly than that.

      “we will be begging to the IMF before the year is out”
      I’ll take a bet on that.

    • Carl James

      Absolute nonsense. British living abroad benefit the countries they live in, by spending money, we do not go abroad to sponge off other nations welfare systems, they would not allow us too. On the other hand the majority of the immigration we have to endure are from poor people with little education etc coming here to claim benefits that in my opinion they are not entitled too because they have never contributed to our system. That is why the majority of us voted out, because we are sick of being taken for a ride by the corrupt EU and the poorer, former Eastern Bloc countries.

  2. Pedro Vicente

    If young immigration is a problem in UK, imagine all the eldery brits who live in the iberian peninsula depending on the public health system and without speaking a single word of portuguese / spanish.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Pedro Vicente
      Portugal and Spain need UK OAPs so much that they provide special perks for same and actively encourage OAP foreigners to retire there.

      Also, Spain and Portugal are quite strict in getting the UK to pay for any healthcare fees incurred by UK citizens in the Iberian peninsula.

      There are 2 reasons why UK citizens don’t in the main tend not to learn Portuguese and Spanish:

      The first being that the UK education system is too slow to adapt to the demand for said languages and the second is that historically they have been associated with political instability, corruption and low attainment.

    • Stephen

      Yes I agree Pedro. My parents have significantly benefit from the economic migration opportunities afford by Europe ) they spend part of the year in France)Their purchasing power for quality of life they can afford is extended and they can rely on the European health insurance agreement should their chronic health conditions flare up whilst over there

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      The picture of the EU you paint is one wherein the wealthy are enamoured and the rest are shafted.

    • ralph mitchell

      It’s a bit rich coming from another generation of Kinnock’s on the EU gravy train with their massive renumeration’s, of course they love the EU they have grown very fat on it’s largesse ,we buy more good’s from the EU than it buy’s from us ,no country in the EU would ever stop trading with the UK ,we are too good a customer, would’nt we charge trading tarrif’s on their good’s?,I have traded with France,’Spain Holland ,dealing in produce for my wholesale business ,they would ring on a daily basis eager for our orders , not for nothing is the UK known as”Treasure Island”,are we to be in thrall to an organisation that has’nt had a successfull audit of it’s book’s for the last twenty year’s ?.

    • Stephen

      Thanks Ralph that’s interesting- I am not so certain that trade will not be affected. It is possible to gain exceptions to the Common trade tariff for the EU trading block. Assuming that these can be agreed by the EU members they usually come at a cost in terms of concessions, compliance with EU directives and immigration agreements (Norway is a case in point). There is no way of predicting what these might be or what industry or service sectors they might affect, the U.K. would have no option but to take the hit without any ability to influence – things would be worse – not better.

    • Stephen

      Tarquinius – things simply would not be better. It’s true I am pointing out the positives but it is equally possible to point out the very real risk that we will be handing on to our kids if we make the wrong decision.

    • Joy

      Hola , soy ingles y tengo una casa in espana , hablo bastante espanol. Mis amigos tambien. Muchas gracias!!!

    • ines

      You took the words out of my mouth. It’s sad to see all this racist movement going on. If everyone had to go through what refugees do the opinion of the british people would change..but oh well, why care about other in need?

    • erick

      Brits bring their pension Money into the basket cases economies of Spain and Portugal. most Spanish and Portuguese immigrants in the UK are uneducated, low skilled and hardly speak English. we need a Australia Point based immigration system, only the brightest of Europe have to get work permit. full stop

    • Carl James

      No, they are mostly retired people who have taken their wealth to those countries, therefore benefitting local economies. You will also find that those people will also have private medical insurance. Spain and Portugal etc would suffer economically if they ejected those British pensioners, that is why they will never do it. We will trade with Europe but we will no longer be dictated to, nor when the time comes, will we accept your Eastern European economic scroungers. The majority of the British are sick of seeing them on every street corner drinking and begging, in our city centres stealing and picking pockets etc. We can’t wait to ship them back to you, let France and Germany keep them, like we have for the last few years!

  3. Wendy Harris

    Those wealthy ex-pats spending their British-paid pensions in this country would boost our economy rather than damage it. But why is this relevant? We’re only interested in expelling illegal immigrants, not those who came here legally, and in preventing the continued influx of people who drain our economy rather than add value to it, and who threaten our way of life. A points based system is the only way forward for the whole of Europe, which needs to wake up to the fact that importing the Third World is only going to regress the entire continent and render it unable to provide overseas aid to the poorest countries in future.

    • Stephen

      At my work migration helps to fill the low paid caring and domestic work with reliable, well educated and hard working people. There is plenty of work for Brits, but we’ve a problem with an entitled culture creating a shortage of people with a reasonable work ethic but who are willing to do low pay work. Whilst ever that exists we are going to need people from some where.

    • Stephen

      The Oldest and youngest people cost society most so chances are the cost/ benefit would weigh in favour of them living over seas. I agree that illegal migration should be a matter for the border services, but the illegal immigrants are not the European citizens who migrate here for economic reasons to work and have a better life.
      The (non Irish or UK)European citizens I see day to day in my work and home life tend to work in low pay jobs like care, cleaning and shop assistants. My experience of those I know is that they are hard working, reliable, culturally nuanced( this can sometimes be an important issue in care situations ). It is hard to recruit good people so I welcome them.
      The current system where EU citizens can go to a country and compete for work seems good to me, you get people applying for jobs with gumption, who fit fairly easily in to the culture and bring a good work ethic and most importantly are willing to work for low(ish). I can’t see how using immigration services to assign points to a candidate as to their suitability will make things better. How many points would you need to clean? I would anticipate that We would lose EU candidates – they would simply go elsewhere, so either pay would increase making care even less affordable or recruitment would need to focus more on developing countries where there are more push factors. But it would be more expensive and time consuming and I suspect there be less effective competition. So the people you ended up with probably wouldn’t be as good

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      We need people from somewhere… why not the RoW not just the EU?

      Loads of non-EU countries have English as a first language – why should the UK be limited to the generally poor English speaking flotsam and jetsam from the continent?

    • Stephen Clarke

      Excellent point I agree wholeheartedly

    • anna

      me too.

      i am an Australian orthopedic surgeon.

      but due to my non EU status I can never work in the UK or EU.

    • Luis

      Erick those uneducated unskilled immigrants that you speak about are the one’s that keep this lazy nation going they the one’s that keep you’re street’s clean train stations airport’s towns and most of the shit Job’s …That you English don’t want to do but prefer them to do it, while getting benefits will be interesting to see what this place will look like once these uneducated immigrants, leave here !!!!!
      Maybe it will be good to see those lazy benefits people go clean toilets and earn a living instead of drinking cheap cider and smoking rolls

    • Dave Reynolds.

      Well said

    • DaveK

      A points based system has proven not to work well for Australia. Instead Australia now bases their system on existing job offers. For the UK I think a similar approach should be used where a) the job is already advertised and not filled from the UK and b) the salary is over 40K to ensure skilled people only are imported.

    • Zoe Morgan

      It wont take long, the EU, cannot exist without the wealth of the richer Western European countries. The EU, is nothing more than a commie club, operated by a bunch of jumped upped, power addicted, idiots, that would never make it in the real World of Business. Just look at their decision making so far. LOL!

  4. Deborah Griffith

    What would be the effect on tourism as well, which is the UK’s second largest employer.

    • Paul X

      No effect, do you seriously think people visit the UK just because it is in the EU?

  5. Paul X

    Stephen Kinnock is deliberately clouding the issue, migration is nothing to do with trade.

    The EU invented the rule that to free trade you must also allow free movement, nations have been trading successfully with each other for centuries without the need to allow hundreds of thousands of people to cross their borders and this rule should be be written out of any agreement if the EU wants to continue its (net) free trading with the UK

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Paul X
      Agreed! The ‘EU Thought Police’ continue with their disturbing biased propaganda!

    • Stephen

      People have freely crossed border to trade their labour or wears since trade began, it was certainly common amongst the pre- Roman Celtic nations. In the work environments that I have experience of economic migrants make a pretty large portion of the care workers, significant proportion of whom come from Europe. These are low paid jobs and are hard to fill even though this is a high unemployment area.
      Employment from outside of the UK probably has the effect of suppressing wages and bringing care services within the financial reach of people on low pensions. So we are really lucky to be able to recruit well educated, reliable and hard working people from Europe ( and elsewhere) to do this important but poorly paid work. I know that there will be comments pushing the RoW agenda and I feel there are benefits there too but I personally see cultural and historical commonality make Europe a good option, the proximity makes interviews simple and consistent regulation and Shengen make it easy to receive a large number of applications with reliable qualifications and appoint knowing that there won’t be any delays due to immigration red tape. It works well.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      If the UK left the EU then EU citizens would have to compete on the job market with citizens from the RoW who often have English as a first language.

      No more EU care worker ‘droids’ often silently helping UK OAPs in UK care homes.

    • Flamingreen

      Well said Paul X

    • Stephen

      Yes Tarquin – I see no problem with this kind of competition- with the caveat that such opportunities and rights are recoprocal. But it seems a convoluted and bureaucratic way to employ say a cleaner or carer

    • Stephen Clarke

      Brilliant point!

  6. Ivan Vikalo

    European immigration is not the issue here… but if the UK rather wants middle eastern immigration then sure, go ahead

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Ivan Vikalo
      EU immigration IS an issue in the UK!

      EU immigration has resulted in wage compression and many of my poor white male friends are either NOT working or are doing poorly paid menial jobs.

      I can see the despair of my friends slowly morphing into something negative – I don’t want to see ‘in-continentalists’ being chastised or worse!

      Stop the racist EU immigration into the UK!

    • Paul X

      Actually the UK is doing pretty well preventing Middle Eastern immigration (unlike the rest of the EU……. if you hadn’t noticed)

      Until the EU can get a grip and start to control it’s borders anyone wanting to come to the UK from the EU is an issue

    • Maia Alexandrova

      The French already said that if Britain leaves EU, they would move the border from Calais back to the English shores… Happy news for all those migrants waiting to cross the Channel… Now they know when they will move closer to their dreams of a better life – June 23rd!

    • Maia Alexandrova


    • Tarquin Farquhar


    • Paul X

      Maia, if the french believe they can just wave through illegal immigrants onto ships and trains to the UK they are sorely mistaken. Just as currently happens at airports, illegal immigrants are returned back to where they came from on the next available transport. You certainly don’t see any holding camps at Heathrow so why should ports and stations be any different?

    • Yasmine


    • EU reform- proactive

      Yasmine, shame & sorry, but once more off topic, embryonic & emotional!

      If true culture evolves through conflict- you still need lots of conflicts. Seems you follow your instinct- not knowing is better than knowing (re: naturalization laws) and worrying! Remember, the moderators bowled you out once- wonder why?

    • Yasmine


    • Patricia Richards

      Philipino nurses and care workers are brilliant . trained Engaged, educated warm hearted and respect ALL elderly . Points system suitable .

  7. Enric Mestres Girbal

    Britain can lead the way to exit this Ali Baba’s cave named EU, protect OUR countries from invaders sponsored by idiotic politicians.

  8. James Campbell

    What we probably know about the post-Brexit future is limited. It is :
    1. The UK will want a free trade deal
    2. The EU will not have goodwill towards us at that point
    3. Any restriction we seek to place on immigration will not be retrospective and British citizens will suffer from similar restrictions in other countries.

    Mr Hookem’s use of the story of the British girl murdered by a Latvian builder proves nothing in itself but rather seeks to exploit fears.

    • Paul X

      1. As the UK has a trade deficit with the EU the sensible EU countries will want a free trade deal with the UK, certainly Germany will. Though with the childish way the EU does business I’m sure some countries that are not major exporters to the UK will try and stir things up, but in general the UK has a strong hand as far as trade goes
      2. Again, with it’s amateurish way of doing business EU countries with a gripe against the UK will stir things up where they can and the EU in general will want to discourage other countries from leaving by making things difficult. There is certain to be attempts at blackmail to try make us stay in
      3. As an Island nation the principle of free movement has never been as attractive to us as it has to the rest of the European land mass….I’ve no inclination to move abroad and as far as I’m concerned the more restricted the movement the better the security can be

      Agreed, a very bad taste bit of exploitation from Hookem

    • chrissy

      What we know about post Brexit is we will once again Rule Our Own COUNTRY . You seem to forget we survived for centuries before the EU . We will do so again . The EU has lost its direction , it is no longer fit for purpose . There are many more English speaking Countries besides the EU that we can trade with James ,so who is doing the scare mongering ?

    • flamingreen

      The EU may not “have goodwill towards us” but hey will still want us to buy their exports! We buy more from them than they do from us.

    • Perky

      Point 1, agreed.
      Point 2, agreed.
      Point 3 – because of point 1 we will get access to the free market somehow, that means accepting the EU rules on free movement and workers’ rights (the EEA route being most probable). There can be no retrospective change in existing immigrant levels due to the Vienna Convention, and no change post Brexit, so we are not going to be able to apply any meaninful restrictions. Immigration levels won’t fundamentally change after Brexit.

  9. Maia Alexandrova

    If visas are introduced for EU citizens, they would supposedly be capped at 50,000 to be in line with the UK government’s aim for “tens of thousands”. This means a reduction of around 130,000. Yet the non-EU net migration will continue to increase, reaching 200,000 a year. In total that makes around 250,000 a year. I do not see any difference from now, as it will still be “hundreds of thousands”, even if no visas were granted to European citizens. I doubt that the government will want to reduce the number of visas granted to non-EU nationals, because if it wanted to, it would have already done it. Another effect would be that European professionals will be replaced with non-EU professionals, preferred by Britain due to historical links with its former slave countries (European nations have not been Britain’s slaves, therefore the lack of “closeness” with them).

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Maia Alexandrova
      I don’t care where a skilled person comes from if they come to work in the UK – stop being so parochial/racist!

      All I want is to be fair to ALLof the peoples of the world who want to work in the UK by introducing a limiting immigration visa system and then choose the best.

      If you are afraid of competition then “get on your bike” as Norman Tebbit once said.

      FTR, European nations have been slaves of France, Italy, Germany or Russia in the not too distant past hence their natural ‘closeness’.

    • Stephen

      I would see it as a loss. European the historical and cultural links with Europe through Celtic, Roman and Saxon times right up to the present day are far deeper and longer lasting than the British colonial period. Shengen allows recruitment of reliable well educated workers without having to go through immigration red tape. I understand the points based idea and then RoW recruitment and I am sure it works for high skill/professional work but it seems a lot of expense just to get a cleaner for example.

    • Chris Brown

      To Steven: ” I understand the points based idea and then RoW recruitment and I am sure it works for high skill/professional work but it seems a lot of expense just to get a cleaner for example.”
      The basic idea alongside the points scheme (which In Australia and NZ, when I was looking, could be set aside for jobs or professions with marked shortages) was that a job had to be advertised for a home national first, before considering overseas recruitment. In a crowded country that seems to make sense.

      We do need more border and immigration control.
      That is better had by leaving the EU.

    • Maia Alexandrova

      Tarquin Farquhar, you know very well that what you are saying is not true – you cannot hide your hatred and racism towards Eastern Europeans, but are now claiming something different… The question is will anything change regarding immigration numbers? It will not! What you are suggesting is already in place for non-EU countries, but still the number of migrants is 190,000 and growing. What control are you talking about? There is no control, even with visas! All the effort and trouble of getting out of the EU because of immigration is for nothing – migrant numbers will not go down to tens of thousands, unless no visas are issued for students, for example. Do you think this will ever happen?

    • Maia Alexandrova

      Tarquin Farquhar, you are not very familiar with European history, otherwise you would have known that South European nations have been slaves of Turkey (the Ottoman Empire) for 500 years. This certainly did not make us want to have closer ties with Turkey. As for France, Germany, Russia, etc., we have common cultures, religion and live on the same continent. This is why we are close.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Maia Alexandrova
      Your assertion about me not knowing about the Turks is illogical.

      If the UK left the EU then there would be “Gates” to defend the UK from thosee EU “Barbarians” full of narcissistic entitlement!

  10. Tarquin Farquhar

    @James Campbell
    Any tariffs imposed by either side post-Brexit would violate WTO laws!

    Secondly, IF the EU-27 want to play hardball then the UK can make strategic decisions like:

    Charge EU citizens higher tax.

    Encourage food importation from our brethren 5-eyes nations.

    Initiate massive projects in the pipeline that will create hundreds of thousands of jobs thereby far outweighing any negative trading feedback [the UK economy could in the worst-case short-term post-Brexit fall a few percent or in the best case rise a few percent] from the EU-27.

    Financially discourage our OAPs from staying in Portugal or Spain.

    Charge EU-27 citizens full-whack for studying in the UK.

    Subsidise travel to Anglosphere countries – encouraging trade away from the EU.

    Force the EEA to compete for new cross-channel train lines – to Netherlands, Norway or Belgium. These train lines would create loads of jobs, de-power France and if the EU wants to play rough use Japanese or Chinese trains.

    Disfavour the EU re Heathrow runways 3 and 4.

    Disfavour the EU re Bristol barrage,

    Disfavour the EU re Mersey barrage,

    Disfavour the EU re Clyde barrage,

    The UK needs to leave the EU – it is too corrupt and on the verge of financial meltdown!

    • Maia Alexandrova

      Who are your “brethren 5-eyes nations”??? On the other points, you are advocating a North Korea in Europe and a return to the British colonial values from 200 years ago! Very, very wrong!

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Maia Alexandrova
      Use Google re your question – this is the 21st century don’t you know!

      As I want trade with the EU and the Commonwealth and indeed the rest of the world your North Korea comments are quite astoundingly wide of the mark – please pay more attention in your English language classes!

      BTW re the forum thread question:

      If the UK left the EU, for a few years the UK might lose a point or 2 of GDP but in the medium term and beyond the UK GDP would massively improve.

      The EU however will be stulted, stunted, stilled and stalled as the amount of money available to the 15 beggar EU nations would be drastically reduced and thus the economically primitive EU beggar countries would in all likelihood grow far, far more slowly than in even these economic-crisis time.

    • Stephen

      This is fantasy and wild speculation the is no meaningful Anglosphere. Other than ourselves our neighbours are our greatest asset.

  11. ironworker

    I don’t think the UK immigration figures will go down, but who cares once they’re secluded. I don’t mind either way.

  12. Dóris Cavalcanti

    Commission Visa Progress Report: Turkey makes progress towards visa liberalisation

    “The Commission has today adopted the second report on progress by Turkey in fulfilling the requirements of its Visa Liberalisation Roadmap, highlighting the steps made by Turkey since the last report in October 2014. At the EU-Turkey Summit of 29 November, Turkey committed to accelerating the fulfilment of the Roadmap, including by anticipating the application of all the provisions of the EU-Turkey Readmission agreement, with the objective of completing the visa liberalisation process by October 2016, provided all the benchmarks have been met by then.”

    • Steve Smith

      Are you particularly worried about the Turks for some reason? Personally I find them extremely hard working and true to their word. True under the current regime I wouldn’t touch them with a bargepole but Sultan Erdogan won’t last forever.

  13. Tarquin Farquhar

    @Dóris Cavalcanti
    Very ‘florid’ language some might say but please note that it is Germany that has been responsible for this debacle.

    Much as I admire Germany, the political elite of same seem to be destroying the good name Germany tried to build-up post WW2.

    Please pray for a[n unlikely] Brexit – it is the only way the UK can control immigration and indeed it may help the ‘politicians in the high tower’ realise their mistakes.

    • anna


      Angelika Merkel is east german. They have psychological damage, the older generation east germans.

      I am happy for all that Brexit was successful, as when I was living in Germany I saw the impact of the immigration policy. I was sexually attacked by one of these “poor refugees” as well. A child will be next, maybe raped and murdered by the same guy.

    • sabine


      Angelika Merkel is east german. They have psychological damage, the older generation east germans.

      I am happy for all that Brexit was successful, as when I was living in Germany I saw the impact of the immigration policy. I was sexually attacked by one of these “poor refugees” as well. A child will be next, maybe raped and murdered by the same guy.

  14. Kei Nakanishi

    i think it would be good to deal equally both EEA migrants and non-EEA migrants. why only EEA migrants can freely stay in UK without any restriction? isnt it better to welcome highly skilled and wealthy immigrants across the globe?

    • krishna

      Then generate a way to describe this high skilled and wealthy by a way , because after Migrants land here ( skilled might not necessarily be rich) , but still treated as a same Migrant.. I feel thats where it hurts the feelings , Iam sympathetic and would love to help fellow beings , but when they mistreat or treat us like competitors then its becomes a nasty feeling.. I see this in Germany, when i travel by bus ( dont have a car ) i see ppl who work on hardjobs and Once after wishing a Hi , the guy asked why dont i leave to my country back as iam anyway not strong like them .. I had no option than to smile at him and say , You are true but not right. BTW i have studied in Germany till Masters. And the other German guys goes like ya , our govt is getting cheap labour not capable labour !! So i think some kind of identification is necessary to make ppl understand who is who.

  15. Kei Nakanishi

    i think it would be good to deal equally both EEA migrants and non-EEA migrants. why only EEA migrants can freely stay in UK without any restriction? isnt it better to welcome highly skilled and wealthy immigrants across the globe?

  16. Mugur Cristian

    UK and any other country should open the doors only for the people they need (for jobs they do not want or do not have enough qualified people). And once they get there, they should have equal rights as any other UK citizen.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      Mugur Cristian •
      Equal rights only if they are prepared to fight in a war for the UK – otherwise that would not be fair on the rest of the UK population.

  17. Neil Clarke

    So the EU put a protectionist tariff on the rest of the world? I’m sure the rest of the world are going to be delighted to be able to trade with us on a level playing field. Thank you Stephen Kinnock for dodging the question that embarrassed you to give me the opportunity to point this out

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Neil Clarke

  18. Dave Start

    As there would be mass unemployment here and loads will emigrate from Britain for a better standard of living , nobody will bother coming here

    • Yasmine

      except for the approx. 2mill british retirees living on the various costas that are going to need the nhs more than Romanians and Bulgarians in their 20’s, 30’s. they’ll be kicked out of where they are.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      The UK pays for the healthcare of OAPs whether they live in the UK or in ‘the Costas’ – hence your point is indeed NOT a point.

      Furthermore Spain and Portugal actively seek UK OAPs as they don’t need a Spanish/Portuguese pension, there health costs are paid for by the UK and they boost said economies by virtue of their spending power. Yet again, your point is indeed NOT a point.

    • Stephen

      Tarquin you are incorrect to legally access NHS you must live in the UK. So it is correct that repatriation of older people would cause a significant and immediate increase in demand for Heath service provision.

    • Yasmine

      You’re only entitled to it for six months from leaving the UK and then you have to rely for your healthcare on the country where you live. So, those old people are being taken care of by the Spanish health care provider.

    • Yasmine

      Tarquin, perhaps you should check some facts before you dismiss people’s arguments in such a spectacular fashion, because otherwise you are making the debate a pointless one and are appearing to be unreliable and therefore to be ignored as a debater.

    • Mike

      We’re s**t anyway lol at least we might then grow our own talent

  19. Mark Stanton-Huxton

    I wonder what all these ranting xenophobes did before the EU referendum was invented. I wonder what they’ll do when it’s all over.

    • Paul X

      Where have you been?…some of us have been ranting on this forum for year……long before any referendum was proposed

    • Yasmine

      they are the people that lost their jobs to poles and Romanians with poor English. you can tell why…I wouldn’t hire them. would you/

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Mark Stanton-Huxton
      Are you of the belief that a Brexiter is racist then?

    • Paul X

      Actually Yasmine I have quite a good job in a large multinational company. My position means I get to interview and recruit Graduates from around the world. we currently have very talented people from Germany, France, India and Spain. but in 5 years of doing this role I have never seen CV from a Pole or a Romanian…what does that indicate about the quality of people that are arriving from those countries?

    • Yasmine

      So, if you are that intelligent, then you can work out the answer yourself and I don’t have to write a whole phd about it…

    • AlexTheBuilder

      Can anyone tell me when UK will close their borders , in case of a Brexit? I’m from Romania and i want to come back :D . (Living in London for the last 7 years, never out of job, never on benefits.) I’m currently on hollyday for the next 4 weeks.
      UK see you soon. :) Peace!

  20. RegandKaye Sampson

    How can they put tariffs on our products when we are likely to apply reciprocal measures and make their products more expensive?
    Take back our fishing grounds to the exclusion of French and Spanish trawlers.
    That ought to concentrate the minds of the EU elite.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @RegandKaye Sampson

    • Stephen

      One of my friends trades his skills in brass and woodwind repair across north western Europe (except Norway). He is extremely concerned that the tariffs to trade into The EU will drive him out of business ( his margins are pretty narrow anyway). Leaving won’t help him.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      If he thinks its tough now, wait till the EU sanctioned TTIP is enacted.

  21. Steve

    Stephen Kinnock gave a most succinct answer. The remarkably agressive tone of those who would leave is telling. The fantasy of being instantly able to arrange bilateral trade agreements, all without financial penalty and at the same time turn our backs on an EU trading block with which we have long-standing arrangements sums up their intellectual failings.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      What kind of club wants to penalise members who decide to leave?

      Is it a club or a prison?

    • Steve Smith

      Tarquin. I note that you don’t directly address the points I made preferring, understandably, to cloak your lack of a coherent response in a further fantasy that the perfectly reasonable outcome would form a deliberate attack on the UK. This is either paranoia or disenginuity.

    • Tarquin Farquhar


      Might I refer you to article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty – IF [and I doubt it] a Brexit does occur, existing EU treaties remain in force for up to 2 years.

      Your emotional, inexactitude sums up your disreputable intellectual failings.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Steve Smith
      I notice you have failed to respond to the fact you obviously deliberately [that would mean you lied] or otherwise [that could amongst other possibilities mean you were ignorant] were unaware of cited in my previous post i.e. Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

  22. Josie Bailey

    The last person to ask for views on this subject is the Honourable Stephen Kinnock son of Baron Neil Kinnock who sold his soul to the British Establishment and the EU Gravy Train. BREXIT is the only sane possible choice. Britain is an Island and we want it back for ourselves. We want our fishing rights reinstated and we want our borders controlled. The less we have to do with the EU the better.

    • Maia Alexandrova

      It is a fantasy to think that Britain can isolate itself from Europe.

    • Chris Brown

      To Maia Alexandrova
      “It is a fantasy to think that Britain can isolate itself from Europe.”
      I have no problem with Europe, and my parents live in France.
      The political juggernaut that is the European Union, however is not “Europe”,
      Britain won’t be isolated from Europe.
      If the EU thinks that it and it alone is Europe, then that’s one more reason to note against its collective mentality.

  23. Thales Raphael Scarpin

    Stop to say the immigration problem is only UE problem. People say this like the immigrants are from Union. Leave the Union the UK problem will not stop.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Thales Raphael Scarpin
      The UK just wants to control immigration whether it be of intra or extra origin.

    • Maia Alexandrova

      Tarquin Farquhar, the UK will not be able to control immigration, just as now it is unable to control non-EU immigration. The numbers cannot be reduced to tens of thousands without damaging the economy of the country. Another big problem is illegal immigration which is also out of control. The disappearance of EU citizens will not really change much. They will be replaced with Asians and Africans, that’s all.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Maia Alexandrova
      The UK did once control immigration into the UK from the EU, it can do so again.

      Your post is thus illogical.

    • Yasmine

      That was in the times before freedom of movement was introduced, and therefore, as long as the UK is part of the EU or has any kind trade agreements with it, it will have to accept the settling of EU citizens on its territory. I find your comment illogical and not Maya’s.

  24. Paul Wood

    Tory plans for immigration , invite as many dictators and tax exiles as is humanly possible , provided they aren’t those nasty foreigners from Europe that we share so much DNA with !!!

    • Paul X

      To be honest we’ve spent more time fighting with other Europeans than we have sharing DNA. We are probably more related to those across the Atlantic and that is what really gets up the nose of USA hating countries like France whose main ambition for the EU is to counter the US as if they are some kind of enemy

    • Paul Letteri

      I am from the U.S and lived in the U.K. for 10 years.
      I have seen once the EU boarders were open
      Drug problems as well as violent crime has gone up 10 fold. It shame. Without Question like the United. CLOSE
      EVERYONE COMING INTO THE COUNTRY . IN THD U.K. Sent Donald Trump is night and day stronger to back up its Ally. God bless OUR FREEDOM.

  25. Ian Smith

    Funny how we have
    Not heard in the media that the German people are trying to take A Merkel to court for treason on bringing mas of immigrants in to Germany

  26. Arron Karl Hughes

    People that want to stay in the EU are simply scared of losing free meal tickets for everything. That we have to pay for by the way. Free stuff isnt free.

  27. Dan Hall

    When we leave there will be a ripple effect. Many country’s are sick of this. Vote out, save our country and save our future generations! If you can’t do it for yourself, do it for your children and grand children and so forth. Be free from the shackles of the corrupt spongers known as the EU.

  28. Radu Ionut Irimia

    Horrible debate. In times when people should get closer together, the only way to face the complex problems of our century, there are still so many hate fueled voices, blinded by their own selfishness, which don’t bring any sort of honour to the UK, and it’s obviously not a British value. Shame.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Radu Ionut Irimia
      What selfishness are you talking about?

      The selfishness of EU beggar nations who do not realise that their excessive presence in the UK is causing disharmony in the UK?

      The selfishness of the EU beggar nations that have cheated and lied their way into EU membership?

      The selfishness of the EU beggar nations that have tainted the EU parliament with their corrupt-prone ‘horse-trading’ practices?

      The selfishness of the EU elite who have mismanaged the Euro?

      The selfishness of the EU elite who have perverted democracy?

      Extremism – whether fascism, national socialism or communism are continental European in nature and are NOT British values.

      I personally wanted the EU to b a success as it promised so much BUT it is too corrupt and too undemocratic at present to be radically overhauled.

      Look on the bright side – perhaps the arguably selfless act of a Brexit could make the EU into the ideal it was initially touted to be.

    • Maia Alexandrova

      Tarquin Farquhar, the world does not revolve around UK and there are no “beggar nations” in EU – stop throwing ignorant lies and using xenophobic language! Respect people’s dignity! If someone is poorer than you, that doesn’t mean that they are not human and deserve to be hated and degraded! These are values from the middle ages and it is a shame that such primitive and extremely selfish thinking still corrupts modern European societies! Besides, has it ever occurred to you what disharmony UK’s behaviour is causing to other nations in the world?

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Maia Alexandrova
      If a country is a net negative EU contributor it is quite in my democratic rights [something I know is relatively new to most Eastern EU countries] to refer to said nation as a ‘beggar nation.

      If you want your country to be considered otherwise then said country should stop taking UK money.

      PS: It would be nice if beggar nations in the EU actually said ‘thank you’ to the UK for giving out charity and helping such beggar/bugger/benighted countries with food, power, education etc etc

    • Andreea Shaw

      Tarquin Farquhar Why are you against European? It is enough to look to your name to realize you are Arab not British! Maybe is your country which need to say thanks to England for education, not Europe!

  29. Tony Cartwright

    Radu we have all seen the ” refugees” taking selfies so the majority are economic migrants. Additionally a true refugee would apply for asylum in the first free country they come to, again this proves the current bunch in France are solely in Europe for money end of. Sadly there are real refugees who are suffering in the camps in the Middle East and on the borders of the EU but the problem is not just for the UK to solve

  30. Helen Eldridge

    It doesn’t have to get nasty it’s basic maths!!
    You cannot take a third of a continent & put them all in one country & expect the infrastructure & people already there to cope

    • Maia Alexandrova

      No, it is not Europeans that are the problem. They will simply be replaced with Asians and Africans, but the numbers will stay the same. The only way for immigration to go down is if, for example, UK bans the issuing of any student visas for any country in the world. Another option is to leave the students but ban any foreign workers from coming to the UK. Do you think this will ever be possible? I don’t.

  31. Mia Allen

    Not much…..there are too many here already, especially illegals who can’t be found.

    • pam

      They only come here for the benifits .a house Cameron said they don’t get anything for 4 years so why when I watched a programs on how to get a council house a family who had just flown in to London got a council house if they were prepared to move to Birmingham. What about the British people living in Birmingham that are waiting for a council house. So unfair.

  32. Yasmine

    we don’t know, as we don’t know what its status would be after leaving, although I don’t think that it is actually going to leave. if it happens, then I think that it will be less attractive to Europeans for cultural reasons and there will be more immigration from outside the EU. therefore the country will be literally less European but also culturally over the years it will move closer to the countries that it once held as colonies. also British citizens living in other EU countries would have to be deported, who are about the same number as EU nationals living in the UK. also that would mean that the UK would lose access to a better-educated work force and I think that overall British business is going to suffer.

    there are basically 3-4 people that come here posting the same miserable and nonsensical views, very anti-European and often contradictory, not really worth a response. the image that they create of the UK is really poor, some kind of small-minded country desperate for pennies and unable to grasp higher values, sitting in the corner on its own and refusing to work or co-operate with others. shame. where is the Britain that used to be at the centre of everything and a leader…I like maia’s posts the best. I think that she is right.

    • Yasmine

      very arrogant too.

    • Yasmine

      the companies that can will move to france and Ireland. they are not going to stay in UK because many of them are actually there because of the EU. they need the passporting environment to survive and make money and it is so close that you can actually live in the UK and work in Ireland or france/Belgium 92 hours on the train0. it’s a no-brainer. people here are deluded thinking that business has anything to do with nationalism and/or emotions of any kind.

    • Paul X


    • EU reform- proactive

      “we don’t know……..”?: but you know that “British citizens living in other EU countries would have to be deported”………..? But- some have a reasonable good idea & are fearless!

      Yes its war- neh? And the little English queen with her little Eng-lander subjects get thrown into the London tower- the rest of the captured British army has to swear an oath of allegiance to Brussels, condemn and spit on their little queen… and than?

      Any required workforce (global practice) is normally recruited by advertising & agencies- abnormally in the EU it is by casual “street traffic”. God save the little queen and have mercy to the conquered souls & all glory to the EU

    • Yasmine


    • Tarquin Farquhar

      There is no such thing as a European culture – there are however many European Cultures.

      Some cultures are great like France, Germany, Italy and the UK.

      Some are admirable like Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and Sweden.

      Some are so-so – either they are too small and or they are eclipsed by the countries aforementioned.

      Some are, erm not-so-good.

      I’m guessing from your vexatious, irrational, illogical, meandering diatribes that you hail from the last group.

      PS: My ire with the EU is not significantly about money per se [although you seem to believe it is] – it is about the corrupt nature of the EU, the undemocratic nature of the EU, the over-representation of countries that according to TI are very corrupt.

      PPS: Stop thinking about yourself and consider [beyond monetary terms] why many in the UK – the stablest nation for the last millennium are concerned by some of the antics of the EU and some of the actions of many of the EU lesser [economically, geographically, culturally] nations.

    • Maia Alexandrova

      Tarquin Farquhar, you are a victim of stereotypes. Just because you haven’t heard anything about a country’s culture doesn’t mean that it lacks it, or that it is a bad culture. Your deficiency of knowledge about South European countries is astounding and it is shameful that you continue with the ignorant posts about great, ancient European nations like Bulgaria and Romania. Do I have to give a history lesson here, so that you understand how limited your views are? All you are talking about is corruption and criminality, but never about culture – because you know nothing about it. If a country has a weak government that cannot deal with high levels of criminality, it is the people of that country that suffer the most. How are ordinary people expected to fight with mafia and criminals on their own, if their government doesn’t want to protect them? In Bulgaria no matter who people vote for, when they get elected they start caring only about themselves, about their own wealth. This is why the country is still poor and life is very difficult – because of bad government, not bad culture. Even more, the state often behaves like an oppressive regime but that doesn’t mean that people have to be punished by the international community for being oppressed, or be abandoned altogether. India is one of the poorest, most corrupt and illiterate countries in the world which still receives financial aid from Britain. It is also the original homeland of the much despised in Europe Roma gypsies. Yet, would you call it a “beggar” nation? Would you deny that India is one of the great, ancient cultures in the world? What about Africans and their cultures? Are they “beggars”? Do African professionals working in the UK deserve humiliating and degrading treatment because of the poverty and corruption in their countries? Why, despite all that, Britain is still giving them large amounts of money, comparable to EU contributions? Don’t be so rude and insensitive to other people’s feelings! Educate yourself first!

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Maia Alexandrova
      FTR, corruption and criminality are elements of culture, as is your bizarre ability to blame everyone else for the negative history and the negative present associated with your country.

      If you don’t like your culture and its associated baggage then either change it [your irrational and emotional posts are NOT positive reflectors of you or your country BTW] or emigrate.

      I would welcome you to the UK [if you could control your emotional and irrational rantings] so long as you do not bring your negative, selfish and tainting cultural baggage to the UK.

      Just as I would not want corrupt ex-EU nations [like Nigeria, Mexico or Pakistan] having a say in UK democracy so too I do not want corrupt beggar EU nations with poor histories regarding democracy, respect for law, corruption etc etc having a say in UK democracy.

  33. Alan Whiting Bem

    Don’t come. We are full, we are in fear of sinking we are help

  34. Terry Fallon

    Vote in and this country will be flooded with migrants and nothing we can do don’t get it wrong on June 23rd or your kids and grandkids will spend a lifetime paying for it OUT

  35. Jon Gibbs

    Kinnock is perhaps speaking up for mummies and daddies wages, pensions and perks from the EU, some £750k a year, totally bias and untrue, 20% tariffs? Where has he dreamt that bullshit up, typical bullshit scare stories to make sure corporations can continue to dictate EU policy by bribing & lobbying commissioners, I’m voting out, it’s also very interesting all the comments on posts for and against Brexit where 80% of comments are negative to the EU and pro brexit yet the polls show remain at 51% and Brexit at 49%

    • Flamingreen

      Hear hear Jon Gibbs. Kinnocks ramblings about pre saxon times are a load of smoke and mirrors as well, utterly irrelevant to the current debate.

      The reality of ancient history is that there was very little migration, and what did take place was hostile, aggressive, and mostly faced resistance or terror. references to history far from commending immigration in reality should act as a warning. Yes maybe hundreds of year later the descendants benefitted, but lets not forget the descendants of the Atlantic slave trade have also gained enormous benefits, compared to their contemporaries who left behind in Africa – that doesn’t justify the suffering of their ancestors in the process!

  36. Eira Brightman

    If we were out at least we could choose not be dictated to by Mrs merkel and the unelected body called the EU

    • Maia Alexandrova

      This is the illusion. You will still be dictated to, if you want to trade with the EU.

  37. Jacek Konrad Wiścicki

    If UK leaves EU and would want to have access to vast Europen market It would have to accept the rules including free movement of people etc. w

    • Kevin

      Well that’s to be decided though I cant see Britain accepting free movement as part of any negotiation

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Jacek Konrad Wiścicki
      You are misinformed.

      Most countries in the world trade with the EU and they don’t need to allow free movement of people.

    • Yasmine

      Tarquin, is it difficult to understand the difference between trading with a specific economic area and being part of it?

    • Kevin

      We have little say anyway . Our government is toothless

    • EU reform- proactive

      If one refers to the Polish EU lucky package- (the far “biggest” in the EU)- than the Poles probably abused Pope Paul’s contribution to their freedom. Swapping one USSR Suzerain against a (more promising) EU/NATO Suzerain- will bring you only illusive freedom.

      Guess why did Donald the Tusk get a EU top job? Maybe Poland is bought & compromised for good? Does that make sense?

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Jacek Konrad Wiścicki
      Despite being the 2nd biggest net EU contributor we have no say as it is,

      Since 1996 the UK has asked the EU not to implement legislation 72 times and every single time the UK has been rebuffed!!.

      That is not just a case of no influence it is a case of downright 100% institutional racism by the EU against the UK.

    • Yasmine

      Tarquin, the UK is the main driver behind EU banking regulation and it can only take part in those negotiations and influence the decisions if it is a member of the EU.

  38. Rui Correia

    Let’s be 100% honest, straightforward, down-to-earth and FAIR with our British friends: by leaving the EU, Britain could get rid of fellow Europeans (like me and many others, from different countries), and also get rid of South-Americans, Africans and even some Asians, and people from ALL OVER the world that somehow claimed EU-valid documents/nationality/double-nationalities/residence or whatever, via different EU countries, just to get into Europe somehow and into the UK (even not being part of Schengen, being in the EU, the UK can’t do much about this)… The British would have absolute control over their borders and immigration policies, and they would only let in who they want, when they want, according to their specific needs and requirements… seems fair! If the UK stays in the EU, nothing will change, obviously they can still control whoever comes into the country directly from most places in the world outside Europe (via their Visa policies), but they won’t be able to control fellow Europeans entering the country, AND also people from all over the world entering the country via EU member states, or directly from all parts of the world with EU-valid documents/passports, etc… Am I right? Or am I missing something?? oh well, what can I say… Us Europeans, used to be all over the place… we left trails everywhere… Soooo… again, how would leaving the EU affect immigration in Britain? It would affect it, yes… for the better!!! Britain could become a more selective country, is that a bad thing? PS- ooops, I feel like a turkey talking about christmas, but… trust & respect comes first in my list, it’s key and top priority. Should there be any valid reason for Britain to stay in the EU, it would be all about trade, partnership, investment and cooperation at all levels… immigration is not a good subject in this debate… Putting myself in a Brit’s shoes: if the issue is immigration, hell, I would vote to leave!… So if the EU wants to keep Britain in, they should allow Britain to take back complete control over their borders, talk less about immigration, and talk more about other types of benefits for Britain… Let’s put ourselves in the Brits’ position: would we want uncontrolled immigration into our countries? Or generally into Europe? NO… Would we want trade, bilateral investment and cooperation partnerships? Yes… So… What is wrong with these EU bureaucrats???? For the Brits, this is like asking somebody they don’t even know “hey, can I have the keys for the front door of MY HOUSE back? please??” “Can I close the door of MY PROPERTY now, please??” – The EU should allow Britain to take back complete control over their borders, as well as any other country who wishes to do the same… I don’t even understand WHY should a country ask permission to do this, to a bunch of politicians from another country… Again: “hi neighbours, do I have your permission to close MY front door, of MY property? Can you give my keys back??” – ridiculous… :-P If there is a thing people should know about the Brits, is that bullying won’t get you anywhere… you’ll be kicked off the cliffs of Dover, eheheh… Personally I admire and respect the Brits (& especially my British mates), so I really think the EU should “hand them back their keys” :-) or… goodbye, see you… tataaaa :-D PS2- Britain will still have to deal with all sorts of illegals and visa overstayers from all over the world, as always…

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Rui Correia
      Good post from a logical and rational EU continental citizen in the UK.

      Its a pity that many of the under-informed pro-EU zealots on this forum are not rational enough to understand the stress and the strain that the EU is imposing on the UK.

    • Yasmine

      You are under-informed and do not understand the benefits that it brings. A lot of the non-EU companies that are here, are here because they have access to the whole EU from this location. Once this is lost they will not necessarily stay here. And the cost of this is impossible to be estimated. So this burden you are talking about is nothing but one of the two sides of a coin but you are not rational enough to understand it.

  39. John Saguato

    It all depend if the UK negotiate a deal with the EU on the model of Norway and Switzerland no change on the model of Canada will be a change of about 70%

  40. Alvaro Loureiro

    Control Your own Borders !
    No more UK border force in Calais or Anywhere in France!

    And Good luck with that

    • Paul X

      No problem, any illegals arriving in Dover will be put on the next boat back. Will certainly upset the ferry operators but the whole issue at Calais is of France’s making. No country should be allowed to just shove its illegal immigrants onto someone else

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Alvaro Loureiro
      NP, they will have to go back to France as is the case currently with UK airports.

  41. Darren Hughes

    Utter bollocks
    Europe will trade with us whether we’re in or out. Don’t let these Tory and labour tests fool you.
    Once were out go see your mp and demand them to stop immigration or your voting bmp or ukip and see how their minds night change once they think they will be out of the gravy train

  42. Roger Peevor

    The french dont like us as we have to rescue them when the germans invade them in times of war,the germans dont like us as we have to beat them up when they try to take over europe in times of war,spain dont like us for a dozen reasons so we give them all 20 billion pounds a year and let them tell us what to do,brilliant

  43. Tim Jeffries

    We would have the decision on who comes and who gets to stay. Criminals from anywhere could be kicked out without europe interfearing

  44. Tom Johnstone

    I’m extremely looking forward to England voting itself into oblivion, leaving Scotland to leave the UK behind. Freedom for Scots and other Europeans from the little Englanders!

    • Paul X

      There is nothing to suggest Scotland will get independence if the UK leaves the EU. The SNP is bigging it up in hope but what they are choosing to ignore is that there is quite a lot of anti-EU feeling in Scotland particularly after what they have done to the fishing industry

    • EU reform- proactive

      Really? Question should be:
      Q: How would leaving the UK affect the EU?
      A: Negatively! Europeans need to start a movement of a 2nd European renaissance. Why? The future will taste like Turkish honey & over sweetened tea:

      Unfortunately, Islamic Turkey of ~75 mio (“dominating voting rights”) will be the next EU blunder & the mother of all EU- inspired German disasters!

      Sultan Erdogan supports:
      * Women are not equal to man- it is against nature.
      * Turkey had more journalists in prison than any other country.
      * Is killing & intolerant towards its Kurdish minority- ignores UNHCR & EHRC.
      * The harem of The Ottoman era is celebrated as an “educational establishment that prepared women for life,”- the men workers there were castrated.
      *Muslims had discovered the Americas more than 300 years before Christopher Columbus- please rewrite history.
      * Free speech & criticism lends you in prison.

      The EU Merkel negotiates from a position weakness- is weak & will act politically & socially absurd.

      I rather support the promising “Einstein forum” hosted in Senegal, than all the “Brussels sprouting”!

  45. Kevin

    If the UK votes to leave the EU it will regain control of immigration from EU states . We can then be more selective in who we allow into the country . Immigration will not stop but the UK will be able to return to pre EU times when people came because they were wanted not because they wanted to come . The UK were a lot more welcoming to the peoples also knowing we needed them rather than thinking (rightly or wrongly) that they were coming to claim benefits ,steal our jobs ect .
    The UK would be able to plan ahead and create a social infrastructure knowing its population .How can we do this when we don’t know how many peoples will need school places ,hospital beds or even seats on the bus ?
    So for me ,to answer the question is simple .It will effect us as much as we want it to .

  46. Aly

    Unfortunatly even at this stage of the debate we have reached the point of no returne, if we stay in the EU Brussels will make sure there is no second chance ( for very obvious reasons) . Best to cut our losses now than baying a much havier price in a later date ( which will be beyond our affordability

  47. Peter Brown

    Like Father, like Son. The younger version is just as good at distorting the facts as his Father. This is the Father who as an EU Commissioner in the Santer led Commission was forced to resign along with the rest of the Commission for grossly fraudulent behaviour. Instead of being sacked (one of the few powers that the EU Parliament has), they all were allowed to resign keeping all pension rights. In Kinnock’s case, this amounts to £83,000 per year.

    Obviously, the Younger wishes to follow on in his Father’s footsteps to keep the family on the EU gravy train hence his grossly simplistic explanation of post-Brexit options for Britain.

    Although the EU accounts for a large proportion of British Trade, it is in fact around 44% and rapidly reducing due to EU austerity. In fact, even the figure of 44% is grossly misleading because it does not take into account the Rotterdam/Antwerp effect and the Netherlands distortion which shows British exports to outside of the EU, should they go through these ports for transfer to large container vessels, are shewn, by EU rules, to be exports to Europe. In fact, the true export percentage is much closer to 41%. Still a large amount but not the emotive figure of half.

    He goes on to say that we would have to negotiate with each EU member individually.. Another lie. We would make a single deal with the EU as a whole.

    He then goes on to state how long trade deals with other countries will take citing the time that the EU has taken for the process. First of all, the EU has a single Commissioner to negotiate all trade deals for 28 Member States simultaneously with countries outside of the EU. In Britain’s case, we would be able to have a dedicated team to look after ONLY Britain’s interests and would be considerably quicker. In any case, there is a convention under International Law that says that an existing trade deal would not have to be abandoned simply because an individual member has left a bloc. Both the parties simply need a simple accord to continue trading under the same conditions as before.

    Young Kinnock’s assertion that we would be subject to tariffs to trade with the EU is not necessarily the case. The EU has just completed a trade deal with Vietnam which is over 99% tariff free. There is no reason in the world given our massive trade deficit with the EU that a similar trade deal cannot be negotiated with them. The EU accounts for around 40% of our exports but their commitment to us is considerably more (especially in high value goods) and we would be free to pick up trade again with the rest of the World which has since 2008 (on an annual average) been higher than with the EU and for 18 consecutive months has been much greater than to Europe and promises to be even greater once we get our own negotiating rights back.

    • Steve Smith

      This is shamefully personal. Please stick to real arguments instead of attacking the people attack the arguments. I understand your frustration but if you are losing at least lose with a bit of dignity.

    • EU reform- proactive

      Steve- interesting- but is it?
      Ad hominem arguments used by “voters” criticizing elected (perceived out of line) politicians- are “public property” and accountable. Usually they are used to the harsh environment, bullet proofed and no angels.

      Isn’t that slightly different than ad hominem attacks between us personally commentating on this site- which is much more frequent. Freedom of speech on this forum is guided and laid down by the DE’s code of ethics- not us.

      We do moderate at times when we feel the moderators were too generous or missed something- as you’ve done- but did the miss something here? Lets wait for the DE moderators- shall we?

    • Paul X

      What is the problem with being personal when it comes to discussing politicians?
      Neil Kinnock was a second rate politician who failed to make it in the UK but has found himself a nice highly paid job in the EU. His son clearly wants the same. As as tax payer who contributes to their wages I’m entitled to give an opinion on whether they deserve my money or not

    • Peter Brown

      @Steve Smith,
      I attack the individual when necessary. The Kinnocks who professed to be Socialist went native as soon as they became involved in the EU gravy train. They ARE the issue when they have the power to use lies and obfuscation to confuse the Electorate. As EU Reform – Proactive says, when they set themselves up as politicians, they do become ‘public property’ and therefore legitimate targets. They CHOOSE to be what they are and what their public stance is. They are also aware of the influence that they place over less well informed people. These individuals are just as much a part of the propaganda machine as the EU itself is. Do you excuse a member of an invading army because he is not the acual regime that is warring against us?

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Peter Brown

      BTW I am sure that you know but JIC…

      79% of UK trade is intra-UK ergo only 21% of UK trade is ex-UK.

      Of the 21% of UK trade done ex-UK, as you have stated 44% and declining is with the EU.

      If you take out the Rotterdam effect and the Antwerp effect that 44% becomes less than 36%.

      If you take out the Ireland figures that 36% becomes less than 33%.

      So continental EU trade with the UK is roughly 33% of 21% i.e. 7% of all UK trade which is a bit less than the drop in GDP the UK suffered in the 2008+ financial crisis.

      In short, the reliance of the UK on EU trade is much overstated and thus if a Brexit occurs the UK would NOT suffer anywhere nearly as badly [if at all] as the fear-mongers espouse and matters of trade deals and immigration would be better managed by ourselves.

    • Flamingreen

      It is not ‘ad hom’ to point out when a politician has vested interests, as the entire Kinnock family do in the continuation of the EU project. It’s ridiculous to pretend Kinnock is in any way objective.

  48. EU reform- proactive

    My continental opinion- nothing beats sovereignty!

    It gives a strong nation more options, freedom & strength. A historical battered, weak & compromised one chooses (once more) safety in suzerainty under a Suzerain. Equal, open & honest trade partnership is what the search is about- not a social EU nor coming TTIP!

  49. Facts on EU = Brexit

    It is a once in a lifetime decision every single citizen needs to make. I urge everyone to consider the facts with regard to our membership in the EU and having done so to LEAVE the EU. We must wake up before June 23rd! Please take the time to consider the facts as I can’t stress enough it’s significance and importance in all of our futures.

    • Stephen

      I agree the most important decision of my and my kids generation. We won’t have the hard won concessions when we try to get back in. Fix it Don’t leave it.

  50. Steve Smith


    • Yasmine


    • Yasmine


    • Yasmine


    • Tarquin Farquhar


    • Tarquin Farquhar

      I don’t mind the UK trading with Nigeria or indeed Romania another very corrupt cuntry according to TI but I do not want either country to have a say in decisions that would affect the UK.

      At present both countries are corrupt. and both are unfamiliar with the practice of democracy BUT culture is dynamic and who knows how much better either country will be in a century.

      Furthermore, given that by 2050 Nigeria is predicted to have a population the same size as the EU including the UK – trading with Nigeria is far more important than trading with paltry, corrupt Romania.

      PS: Try to focus on the forum question, otherwise you’ll just sound like that vexatious, emotional type ‘Limpwrist’ [or whatever] fellow.

      PPS: I have lived and worked in Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Switzerland and the USA and I have no problem with border controls especially given the current climate of terrorism.

      PPPS: I have relatives in Ireland, UK, Nigeria, India, Australia, Canada, USA and New Zealand – I have no problem with border controls especially given the current climate of terrorism.

      PPPPS: Because you don’t live in the UK you seem unable to grasp why borders are important to UK citizens – your emotional narcissistic sense of entitlement seems to blind you from contemplating the other view.

      PPPPPS: You need to understand that if you come from a country of ill-repute and you don’t like to be associated with same, then get some skills and emigrate.

    • Maia Alexandrova

      Tarquin Farquhar – STOP YOUR XENOPHOBIC, RACIST, IGNORANT COMMENTS about certain countries! This post should also have been removed by the moderator because it is vile, nothing in it is true and its sole purpose is to hurt, degrade and humiliate others!

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Maia Alexandrova
      Oh, err you confuse racism with culturalism.

      The former is abhorrent the latter is fluid, dynamic and up for debate.

      Furthermore, given my bi-racial status, methinks you really do not understand the term ‘racism’.

      Indeed, it is people with your self-excusing narcissistic entitlement culture that make people like me fearful of the EU as your cultural predilections could possibly taint the EU to the point of civil unrest!

      If a Brexit should occur then please note that immigration to the UK will at the very least become more competitive – a good thing for the UK.

      Unfortunately, a Brexit [unlikely unfortunately] will also mean that countries like Bulgaria will stay poorer for longer as the UK will stop throwing millions into the begging bowl of same.

  51. blugalf

    “Go in peace, but go soon.”

  52. Profile photo of Debating Europe
    Debating Europe

    We welcome contributions from everybody, no matter their political views, as long as they follow our Code of Conduct.

    The first point in our Code of Conduct is that we ask participants to respect others. We welcome debate and dissent, but we request that you treat all fellow participants with mutual respect.

    One of the key issues during the British referendum in June will be the question of immigration, so it is completely justified to hold a discussion on the topic. However, please refrain from making personal attacks against your fellow participants or we will be forced to lock the debate thread.

    • Paul X

      @Debating Europe
      I think you well know that any topic regarding the UK and its attitude to the EU will result in heated debate and lets face it, no-one is interested in a forum which only allows fluffy talk about how wonderful everything is in Euro-land

      However I disagree with your statement regarding immigration being a key issue. Yes it is an issue and it is topical because of what is currently making the news, but the UK referendum will be about more fundamental issues with the EU that go back much further than the current immigration crisis
      The financial cost, lack of democracy, excessive regulation and the general bloated excesses of the whole bureaucratic EU institution are just as important as the immigration issues..

    • Yasmine

      it is ridiculous the kind of comments that have been removed…I have asked for a specific explanation on several occasions but have never received this 9i wonder why0. this is not moderation of comments but censorship of opinions and it seems to also depend on the race of the person posting. I hope that you are ashamed of yourselves since it is yourselves that are actually racist. positive discrimination also is DISCRIMINATION.

  53. Tarquin Farquhar

    @Debating Europe
    Bravo, but why did you take so long to react?

  54. Yasmine

    So, somebody saying that “Some (European cultures) are so-so – either they are too small and or they are eclipsed by the countries aforementioned.

    Some are, erm not-so-good.” is acceptable but discussing the attitude of second-generation immigrants to the UK, an issue there have been TV programmes on and especially in the light of British citizens going to Syria, chopping heads off on TV etc, is not acceptable and is a personal attack…Really? Clearly the EU is not really want genuine debate but is about protecting the feelings of its adopted citizens, even when they are so clearly anti-European as opposed to the ones whose parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc are from there. Interesting. And this is where I have to agree that the EU has indeed gone terribly wrong and I can understand why people want it to go down…Are you going to have another debate soon on the rise of far-right parties? Do we have to go on a far-right website so that we can discuss these issues with honesty?

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      Please, please, please stop being so emotional you really need to stop negatively stereotyping yourself and focus on the forum question – genuine debate not irrational, illogical bilge.

      If the UK left the EU then…

      people from basketcase EU countries would probably get poorer.

      the UK after a possible small dip would become relatively richer.

      the UK would become safer.

      the UK housing crisis would abate.

      the UK hospitals crisis would rescind.

      the UK school places crisis would desist.

      the UK’s population would suffer a spike increase as many poor EU citizens jettison their basketcase country passport for a UK passport – this would boost the UK economy BTW.

      the UK street-sleeping problem would reduce.

      the UK would not have to suffer from further EU institutional racism against the UK.

      the rise of far-right parties in the UK (none of which have MPs or MEPs BTW) would decline.

      PS: You seem to confuse the difference between the concepts of ‘race’ and ‘culture’. Race is a matter of genetics, culture is a composite of many factors including language, science, music, food, and the arts. Racial bias is unacceptable, cultural bias [given that some cultures are quantitatively inferior on so many levels to other cultures and too that the concept of an individual culture is always changing] can on occasion with impartial justification be acceptable.

    • Yasmine

      Tarquin, I understand that you like to come to this debate and get away with your behaviour simply because of its policy, which clearly only wants a superficial and not really to-the-point debate. And I think that they are entitled to this as the page belongs to them. However, there is a world beyond this debate and I think that you have got the point of my posts as well as how your behaviour comes across. Hopefully, it will make you think about your attitude and the language you use. And by the way, you talk about security, actually, it is Nigeria that has this problem and not Romania or Bulgaria. It is called Boko Haram. The Irish also were considered terrorists one day. I hope you get my point. But…it was useful to bring this up here because you are not the only one. Actually, Nigel Farage is in a similar situation. It is an interesting phenomenon. I personally, if I am free to speak my mind, find it pathetic. Sorry.

      And, dearest Debating Europe, people are not obliged to reveal any personal details about themselves if they want the conversation to centre on viewpoints as opposed to persons, as indeed I am not doing. And they also have the option of not coming to this debate at all if they find it too upsetting…Is it worth having a debating page unless you are going to be actually debating though….?

    • Chris Brown

      “He is yet to admit in public that he himself is the descendant of immigrants
      His great-grandfather was born in Frankfurt and moved to England in 1850s
      He came with no qualifications and would be turned away in Farage’s Britain

      to Yasmine..:Daily Mail news article
      Did you read it or weigh it it before posting the link here.
      It’s of almost no value, certainly of no value as a political point.
      Nigel Farage’s great-great grandfather was in a different world, so saying he would not meet prospective future immigration requirements is saying nothing sensible at all.
      Everyone in Britain is descended from immigrants, colonists or invaders, unless you come from the fringe of Celts and Britons on the north and western fringes of these isles. What’s that got to do with anything. There are plenty of those whose family’s have been in the UK just two generations who agree that current levels of immigration are unsustainable. It’s a different world and a different situation.

      You say ” I have to agree that the EU has indeed gone terribly wrong and I can understand why people want it to go down”
      And I add that the EU has also shown little tendency to address its own faults.

      The logic therefore is to leave it.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      Please kindly stick to the forum question.

      You are too emotional when posting and you do yourself and the [I shall refrain from using the word basketcase] country you obviously care for a disservice.

      Please sit down, have a nice cup of English Breakfast tea or indeed a very pleasant Assam tea or a refreshing Ceylon tea, then compose yourself and then try and think about the forum question and how you can express yourself eloquently without the need for id-constructed bizarre imaginings, rantings and the like.

      Your tone has always been of a racist nature – you do not seem able to process that being a Briton is not about colour it is about culture. In enlightened circles in the EU and indeed the RoW many people do not have a problem with such a concept.

      That is why if a Brexit occurs, I will be happy as UK borders would be properly controlled and certain racist types from the EU will find it harder to come to the UK.

      PS: FYI Nigel Farage AND the Queen are of German stock. :)

    • Maia Alexandrova

      Tarquin Farquhar, how do you want someone to react when you call their country “beggar”, “basket case”, “so-so” or “not so good cultures”? Who are you to judge? Your language is simply AWFUL and extremely disrespectful. Don’t be surprised that when you hurt someone, they will react. It is hypocritical to ask Yasmine not to be emotional and not to negatively stereotype herself when on the next line you say “basket case EU countries” which immediately creates a negative stereotype and is offensive. You really need to notice YOUR ugly language before advising others on how to give beautiful responses!

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Maia Alexandrova
      Please do not try to subjugate my democratic right to refer to EU countries that take the shilling as beggars, this is not a Communist forum or a Nazi forum it is a DEMOCRATIC forum and judging by your postings you seem unaware that free speech is a fundamental bastion of democracy.

      Please note that If you are not made aware that many people regard your country as a <basketcase [and other far, far, far worse adjectives I might add] then how can you improve your poor culture?

      FTR, I do not mind dolling out monies to erm, not so-good countries in the EU or indeed ex-EU but I do object to the dishonesty of the PC EU zealots wherein all nations are regarded as equal even though some countries are culturally superior on so many levels to the likes of well, well, you know what I mean…

      Your self-excusing culturally defensive attitude is more a reason I would like a Brexit than the current status quo as I am truly fearful of the cultural baggage and resultant damage basketcase EU nationals could bring to UK shores.

      A Brexit would allow greater immigration control of said EU types re UK shores.

    • Yasmine

      LOL, they should have closed the borders early enough to prevent those that produced you coming in.

  55. Chris Brown

    “How would leaving the EU affect immigration in Britain?”
    It couldn’t possible make it worse.
    And a pretty good chance it would give Britain more control over its borders, allowing more selection of immigration in terms of the nation’s needs, not just on migrant’s wishes.

    • Maia Alexandrova

      It would do nothing, except replace European workers with Asian and African ones. The numbers will dip initially, but then quickly pick up to reach the current levels due to the needs of the economy. It is unrealistic to expect that net migration will reduce to tens of thousands, unless there is a complete ban on student visas, or worker visas, for example. We know that this will not happen.

    • Paula

      @Tarquin Farquhar

      I know Britain will leave. One thing though. Many Europeans have double citizenship which means that they will get a sweet deal out of it while Brits will be stranded on our little island hoping that Brexit will make things better. In the mean time EU nationals with double citizenship will enjoy free movement and the chance to find a better place to live if Brexit leads the country into recession. I just find this a bit amusing…

  56. klassen

    Immigration is only one problem of many problems with the eu. Britain needs to be able to control its own borders period! As do other european countries..
    The whole eu fed thing is dying a slow death . We need to scrap the fed agenda asap , do damage control assessment , and rebuild our countries, economies, start to inovate again and free ourselves from the eu dictates.
    I hope the uk leaves the eu, this will start the ball rolling for the rest of the countries to do similar in/out referendums. Im impressed by the amount of scaremongering in the british press, its like the uk will fall of the ends of the earth if they leave, but boris is right they will be alot better of, trade will go on as usual and the uk will have billions more to spend on healthcare/roads/schools etc, instead of wasting money on brussels.
    We all desperately need referendums to settle the fed issue. Immigrants have nothing to gain in europe if its a sinking ship. A rethink , and democracy is needed in the eu, not the status quo.
    Van Rumpy, Verhoffstad, Rutte, Merkel and other europhiles, all belong to one corporate group and its not democratic.. Mention referendum and watch them cringe.
    We are on a runnaway train with these idiots with no chance of getting off. The people of europe need to hit the emergency brakes before its to late.

    • Paul X

      Yep, agree 100%

    • Stephen

      Really good points- EU institutions need to wake up but why should the UK be the nation to take the risk in the hope that others might follow.

  57. catherine benning

    Immigration in the UK would not be affected by the UK leaving the EU in the short term. It will take some considerable time, years in fact, before we Brits would see any difference at all as our laws are dictated to by the ECHR and the courts that rule over us through our European treaty obligations

    However, in time it would enable the voter to choose political parties that would have the power to remove us from the EU-US stranglehold presently holding us to ransom. Which, for any countries freedom, it is imperative to be in a position to choose those who rule over them. And whilst in Europe thise we don’t have. Europe is passes laws, sets up alliances and trade deals that are not in the best interests of the British people. Immigration being a dastardly part of that project to change our culture, expectations and aspirations to those of a third world mentality. In essence slave labour with no way out.

    However, once we are out of Europe, our political parties will have to bend to the wishes of us all who vote or be ousted by parties who will end open door policies from anywhere that no longer benefits us as a nation. It will mean cutting ties with the Commonwealth unless those ties suit our new standard of Britains first, they will be as any other world country in line for review.

    Now here is the rub. This vote we have coming, referred to as a one person one vote referendum is a lie. I found out only yesterday that the Commonwealth countries will also have a vote in this little charade, along with people of the Irisah Republic as well as those from various other countries who work or have some kind of influence over the British people. But, as usual, the government is keeping this very quiet indeed. Once again the average citizen being duped.

    Even the BBC are fessing up to it, reluctantly as they receive an annual stipend from the EU money bags not to tell us the full story on anything that goes on within the wall sof EU power. They cut the money if they blab the wheeze.

    Take it all in. And then add to your thoughts what they are not telling you.

    The only answer to mass immigration, promoted and encouraged by the mad German Chancellor along with the British elite and the US regime, who plan to send the big fat arses in the White House to advise ‘us’ on how we should accommodate their desires in our free vote. What a joke that is. The guy who sold out the American peoaple thinks he can come and preach his New World Order to us.

    Come off it! That pair don’t have the looks for it.

    • Chris Brown

      To Paul X. “it was more about whether there was such a thing as a European culture ” I remember from a while back reading a detail in a crime report:
      “The man spoke with a European accent”
      Oh yes, that’s as useful and precise as the idea of “European culture.”

    • Paul X

      @Chris Brown
      Yes, I would love to know the nationality of someone who believes there is a European accent!
      Considering within the UK alone we could put someone from the NE of Scotland, a Geordie and someone from Cornwall in the same room and they wouldn’t have a clue what each other is saying, it’s a bit fanciful that the countries of the EU have any accent (or culture) in common

    • Chris Brown

      Why should there be any particular problem with culture or cultures?
      The exist, they borrow from each other and they can clash with each other too.
      That’s just humanity scaled up a bit from the level of the individual.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      …and there was I thinking a ‘culture’ was something in a Petri dish. ;)

    • Paul X

      I don’t think there was any dispute what the word culture means, it was more about whether there was such a thing as a European culture and going by the definition, clearly there is not

      “The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society”

      Much as the EU is trying to homogenize the peoples of Europe into one bland race with a blue flag and a beethoven tune, thankfully, the cultures of countries such as Greece and Finland remain as diverse as ever

  58. Martin Unterholzner

    The effect will probably be smaller than the British people wish to see. The fact is that leaving the EU ist not enough to get out of the treaty regarding the free movement of people in Europe. The free movement is an important element of the European Economic Area. I don’t believe that the UK is considering to get out of the EEA, since it would lose access to large parts of the European market. The access to the market could only be reinstated with bilateral agreements. Switzerland follows this strategy. However, Switzerland has not full access to the common market and it still got the free movement. I don’t think that this option could be seen as a better deal for the UK.

    • Kevin

      What those bringing this point up Martin don’t realise is that the UK outside the EU can enforce the actual treaty on free movement . It does not state in the Lisbon treaty anything about free movement of people but rather free movement of workers , freedom to move to take up job offers ect . The UK could strictly enforce that which would bar anyone turning up without a genuine job offer and still be within the scope of the free movement treaty . This would reduce immigration to people we need and not include people we don’t

    • Paul X

      Free movement is not essential for trade that is the excuse used by the EU, trade has been going on for centuries without uncontrolled migration of people

      The whole concept of free movement was introduced by the EU to dilute national populations to further their aim of breaking down borders and creating one homogenous landmass called Europe

      No country outside the EU has to accept free movement and any agreement between the EU and UK following exit should be based on trade only

    • EU reform- proactive

      Martin, why risk to spread half truth & add to confusion?

      Having questions about the EU? Free phone, e-mail & receive an answer in 3 working days! What a great EU service!

      One thing the EU is tops- are their well functioning websites- but that’s where it (should) end! Free movement of workers – the rest are tourists & all implied to be self funding (no sleeping in Hyde Park on streets & under bridges etc):

      “As an EU national you are entitled to take up work or look for a job in another EU country. This section (look it up) provides information on the rights of workers moving (freely) within the EU and the other rights linked to it, as well as on the RESTRICTIONS that apply to workers from the countries that joined the EU more recently- Free movement of workers also applies, in general terms, to the countries in the European Economic Area: Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.”

      “There are limitations based on considerations of public security, public policy, public health grounds and employment in the public sector. Nationals of Croatia may face temporary restrictions.”

      “The rights described apply to people who exercise their right to free movement for WORK purposes. There are LIMITATIONS based on considerations of public security, public policy, public health grounds and employment in the public sector. Nationals of Croatia may face temporary restrictions.”

      Is that clear?

  59. Paulus de Bierkabouter

    Kinnock is wrong to conflate the situations of Norway and Switzerland. Following the 2014 referendum, the latter is obliged to restrict immigration. Liechtenstein is (like Norway, but unlike Switzerland) a non-EU member of the EEA, and it already has the right to restrict immigration.

    • Tarquin Farquhar

      @Paulus De Bierkabouter
      Great post!


    • Perky

      Obliged by whom? National government of Switzerland? They have tried to do this and had the door shut in their face by the EEC, and in no uncertain terms have been told quotas on EU immigration would invalidate all of their other agreements as they are tied together, including any free access to the single market. Those in the EEA have no such right as far as I am aware, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

  60. Tom Davies

    The UK is restricting ingress of migrants to just a few thousand, while Germany has accepted a million in the last year alone. Presumably a few years from now, all those will have settled in Germany and been issued with German passports; thereby permitting them to move without restriction to any other EU country – including the UK should its population choose to remain in June’s referendum.
    Under these circumstances, what exactly is the point of restricting the numbers now? Presumably delaying the arrival of huge numbers of immigrants until after the referendum will be seen as an advantage by some politicians, but perhaps someone can explain what powers would be available to the UK Government under current EU rules to prevent these extra millions coming to the UK in the future.

    • flamingreen

      Of course there are none, but once the referendum is behind them the poltician can ignore democracy. With all the main parties pro mass immigration and ethnic British people rapidly sinking to being an ethnic minority in our own country they have few concerns. And of course the “Syrian Germans” will not all come here at once, some of the brightest and best will actually learn German get jobs and realize Germany is a better option than Britain. We are likely to end up with the failures.

  61. Zoe Morgan

    There is NO country, if there are NO Borders!

    • Stephen

      I think Scotland and Wales would disagree.

  62. stuart lambert

    if we leave the eu but allow eu migrant workers to stay it accomplishes nothing ,i want my country back and free up housing ,hospitals and jobs

    • Stephen

      I would imagine that current migrants would be given the choice to stay. So yes it is likely that nothing will change in this sense.

  63. Tugboat

    If the EU let have complete control of our borders, then I’d vote to stay in if not then we’ve got to get out. if some convicted paedophile or murderer or rapist wants to get in we can say no without backlash, we can make our own rules, we won’t have to bail other countries out and best of all we can put the great back into Great Britain

    • Chris Brown

      @ Tugboat. “we can put the great back into Great Britain”
      We’ve never lost it. It’s not a boast about empire or how wonderful we are/were.
      Historically it was acquired to distinguish us from the other Britain, also sticking out into the Atlantic, as far as sea traders coming round from the Mediterranean were concerned. The other, smaller, one is now called Brittany. Just a thing of geography and history.

  64. Lloyd Taylor

    England should leave the European union and concentrate on the Commonwealth Countries and encourage migration from those who fought and sacrificed in the world wars to protect us and make it easier to for skilled migrant workers from the commonwealth to enter the UK. Why should it be difficult for a Jamaican Nurse, an Indian doctor, a Canadian, Australian, or Nigerian technician (to name a few) to bring their skills to the UK than EU nationals (with no historic ties to the UK) to come to the UK. The UK will be better placed to form unilateral and bilateral trade agreements. Look at the Singapore model. “Singapore model of economic development which depended externally on services as much as manufactured exports. Extensive government intervention and planning, though not a rigid central plan, were essential to the successful expansion of both. Singapore’s experience illustrates an approach to economic planning which admits possibilities other than just ‘the market’ or ‘the plan’, and shows that this is not a polarized debate”.

  65. stuart lambert

    If the uk votes to leave the eu but allows all the migrant workers to stay one of the key reasons for leaving will not have been achieved. I for one am sick and tired of thousands of unskilled workers keeping british people out of work,yes let skilled workers that we need stay on but only on a work permit basis. Most people i talk to just want our country back as our housing,health service,schools and many other services are struggling to cope Britain for the British first its quite simple!

  66. clare

    We should leave the EU, I strongly “disagree” that none Brits should be allowed to stay in this country and claim multiple benefits be given council homes and receive free health care and education, which is putting a massive strain on our public services, I no loads that are doing this and its wrong they should be sent home, I’m all for the ones that come over here for a better life and work hard fair play to them, the government shouldn’t give these freeloaders that won’t work any money the government made out they’d better our country by paying taxes but they never mention how much is spent every month on free benefits to ones that come here to manipulate our system to live scott free, yeah they have changed the system for new people arriving but nothing has been mentioned about the ones already claiming, it’s ridiculous the government are allowing this we already have a problem with our benefit system being manipulated without none Brits claiming as well, I no loads in my area that are doing this we need to stand strong as a country and change what is happening I fully understand everyone is entitled to there own view on this matter but this is my point of view that I see going on around me not because I’ve read it somewhere.

  67. daddum

    Ask, not why we should leave, but why on earth would we want to stay.
    when you look at what an EU commissioner earns, and the 70% pension and the 3 years of wind-down salary, and the expenses, it’s easy to see why so many of the UK government want to stay. But here is an independent video produced to explain to america just what was happening in Europe last year. and when you have watched it, ask yourself, can EU ever really work?

  68. Daddum

    One more point that I would like to make is that as a Self Employed contract engineer, I have personal experience of what the EU does to the UK labour market. One of my customers has over the last few years started having it manufacturing moved from the UK to the Czech Republic. In addition they have stopped doing apprenticeships and instead get their engineers from the EU, in fact over the last 12 months the number of none UK engineers in one dept has gone from 5 % to 40%. What annoys me about this strategy is that this major international company is making profits in the UK but clearly does not want to invest in UK engineers. And what makes me uneasy about this strategy is that this is exploitation of people from other EU member states (remember we are now member states not countries).
    The other point to bear in mind is that these people will be doing low paid work. This means that they pay less National insurance, and indeed the employer will pay less National Insurance, as it is based on a percentage of the employees salary, yet time and time again research has shown that the lower paid are the ones that use the NHS the most. In addition to this, take a look at the number of cigarettes consumed per person here ( as you will see its around 750 per person for the UK but near 3000 per person for a lot of the EU. Clearly the NHS will have a significant lung cancer burden if these people remain in the UK.
    The EU is a self serving club that employs between 25,000 and 50,000 people (they don’t actually seem to know ( and when you have that many staff sitting around they will find things to do, such as making us have 65 ton lorries on our roads, even though the highways agency is spending millions on putting concrete step barriers down the middle of our motorways to contain existing lorries during a crash, but clearly they wont contain a 5 ton lorry. And that really sums up the EU, no matter what we do they can come along and override what we are doing or make it obsolete.

  69. Carl james

    Stephen Kinnock is a left wing MP who is pro EU, he would say absolutely anything in an attempt to sway people to vote remain. His comment is absolute nonsense, barefaced lies. The U.K. Will continue to buy German and French vehicles, those countries economies would be crippled if we didn’t buy them, we buy more European cars than any other EU country, do you really think they would stop selling them to us??? The other major points people aren’t mentioning is the inclusion of Turkey, Kosovo and Albania into the EU very shortly. Well folks, you ain’t seen nothing yet, wait until the gun toting Kosovans and Albanians get here, this country will resemble a war zone very very quickly. I could go on but I don’t need to, remaining in would be a death sentence for Britain and the British. Don’t believe the establishment and controlled media lies, they are all far too left wing and can’t wait to see our once great nation destroyed, for it surely will be if we remain. Vote out on June 23rd and look forward to the celebrations and the good times!

    • Chris Brown

      ” Vote out on June 23rd and look forward to the celebrations and the good times!”
      I’m not at all sure it will be instant good times is we vote out. I see 2-4 years of uncertainty as new relationships are worked out.
      That doesn’t shift me in the slightest from thinking the risks for leaving are considerably less than the risks for remaining.
      Vote out because of the character of the EU and the way it’s heading.
      It won’t be strawberries and cream for all, instantly.
      But it’s the best long-term call.

  70. david steward

    will all the eu migrants have to leave britain if come out of the eu

    • Kevin

      No they wouldn’t . They entered the UK legally so those here would be able to remain .
      They would not be permanent residents though so would not qualify for various state benefits . I believe the way it works is that if they become unemployed they would be better off returning to their own countries . If they have been here for some time they could of course apply for British citizenship in the same way that other immigrants from the rest of the World do .

    • James Smith

      No David, they won’t and in fact, you will find the only way to set up a new trade deal with the EU will to allow free movement of people to out country and vice versa. So, in essence nothing will change with immigration.

      If we look at the possible models, I think they fit broadly into two buckets. One is what’s generally called the ‘Norway model’ – the Swiss model is very close to it, so let’s for the sake of argument call it the ‘Norway model’. Under the terms of the model, Norway is part of the European Economic Area (EEA) which gives it access to the Single Market, so you have all the economic benefits [of EU membership]. However, part of the deal is that you must also accept free movement of people. So, Norway is actually in Schengen, even though it’s not inside the European Union… There would be no change in terms of control of our borders, so what is the point of Brexit?

      The other model is what people call the ‘Canada model’, or it could be China, Singapore, or any country which has a trading relationship with the EU but is not part of the Single Market. Now, you could have far greater control of your borders, and you would not have to accept free movement of people. But, you would lose access to the Single Market and have to start creating trade arrangement with every single one of the other 27 members of the EU, and let’s not forget that accounts for 50% of our trade. And, in each case, every single product would also be subject to a tariff, just as any Canadian product has to pay a tariff usually of between 10% and 20% on any goods they are exporting. Now that would, I believe, lead to a collapse of the British economy, because if you suddenly have to add between 10% and 20% onto every single one of your products that you’re trying to export, nobody is going to be buying your products in the EU, which is 50% of your market. So, yes, you might get control of your borders in terms of immigration under that model, but the downside would be the total collapse of the British economy, which I think is a pretty big price to pay…

  71. Kevin

    James you have made the case on known existing arrangements. It has been proposed by some in the Brexit camp that there will be a British model . The one where we have a trade deal with the EU without free movement .
    Controlling our borders would be a red line . That doesn’t mean we would have no immigration just that we would control it . We would probably follow what you describe as the Canadian model with lower or even no tariffs .
    I would also like to point out that the EU is 50% (or there about) of our external market ,not trade as a whole .(there are plenty of discussions covering that )

  72. daddum

    well James, you may have heard about the problems with our steel industry. Mainly due to cheep steel from China. But hold on there! Steel from China ?
    But China is not it the EU and yet they sell things to the EU and they don’t have free movement of people ?
    Neither do USA who also sell to the EU, or Australia, or India. So why would you assume that we would have to accept free trade ?
    The point that you miss is that, if we leave the EU then we can accept what terms we want and also impose what terms we want. While we stay in the EU we have to take the terms that the EU negotiates for us with either USA or India or china etc.

    • Perky

      You have to ask yourself if free trade wasn’t that important then why haven’t our other markets expanded more than they have already? The reason the EU trading bloc is the size it is for us is due in no small part to the free trade and the single market, it makes us competitive in that market. What we face if we don’t accept free trade is a big hole in our trading while we try to sort out our own, and history has told us it could take many, many years to do that. Even then the other markets would need to be big enough to offset the loss of free access to the EU market. This will be a price too high for a UK government to pay, we will end up with some way (probably by joining the EEA like Norway) of gaing free access to the EU market, and that will entail free movement and workers rights as this is non-negotiable from the EU perspective. Immigration would not change. If what you say is true (free trade is not necessary) then our external markets other than the EU will grow gradually. When they’ve grown to a sufficient size it is then that we should seek to exit the EU, not now, because the shock and recovery time will be much less.

  73. Debbie thomson

    I hope when we leave the EU we are able to secure our borders, we need a policy were if the migrant has something to bring to the country then fine if not then refuse entry, we have Romanians camped outside landmarks in London and begging in the street also sleeping/begging in the walkways!! This does not benefit britain at all neither does the migrants flocking over and claiming every benefit they can then landing in our schools and demanding we change things to suit their beliefs!! What about saying these are our ways and if they offend or dont suit then feel free to go to a country that is similar to theirs, migration is now about us bending over backwards and changing our ways to suit theirs! We need to be like Australia and they need money job prospect and arrange their own house and no benefits!! This would help our economy!!!

    • György Gajdos

      There’s plenty of non-EU migrants doing the same thing, living a dodgy life in the UK and there’s no outcry over that.

  74. geoff

    The immigrants that gradually invaded America and Australia established themselves very quietly to gain the trust of a portion of the natives. This then allowed a flood of more immigrants to enter that very briefly put persecuted to death the native populations of these continents locked them up in reservations and rode roughshod over their culture where they are now a shadow of the former proud people they were. And this was us doing this. We are not unique in the pursuit of a better life and we will not be unique in trampling underfoot of any native populations once numbers are achieved. To allow control so as to shape the new lands to suit the immigrant / invaders cultural desire.
    Ask any Native American or Aboriginal given the choice knowing what they know now if their forefathers could have stopped our immigration. You know the answer.

    • Sheffield

      Moderators – the post above could be interpreted as incitement – please examine

  75. Kypros Savopoulos

    I do not believe that immigration is an issue.The wealthiest nations in the world such the USA,China,India and Brasil depend on a constant supply of immigrant workers,external or internal.In a nation such as the UK where the indigenous population would have stagnated our economy would suffered tremendously if it wasn’t for the constant supply of immigrant labour from the West Indies,the Indian Sub continent,Uganda Asians,Southern Europeans and in the past 12 years Easter Europe.Despite a large influx sinse 2004 with its consequences on services and housing the overall impact on the economy has been positive and this is proven by the fact that our economy is performing better than the rest of EuropGermany which has had a higher influx is the only other economy which performing well.

    • Ronnie Shakespeare

      Yes immigration is not the problem. But uncontrolled immigration is I definite problem. The EU leaders are wrong forcing uncontrolled free movement of people in the EU states. If they don’t change this policy quickly they will eventually skrew the EU up.

  76. Adz

    I believe we shall kick those out with criminal convictions,those who do not work and wish not to work for the future, leave the hard working immigrants with those who have or had a job for longer than 4 years. Also I think we should allow the Immigrants that are studying the ones without criminal convictions to stay in as they are the people that Uk invests in.

  77. Andrea Keene

    Many economic migrants do come here to work as our rates of pay are higher yes. However, many British citizens feel that our living wage is not high enough and they “are not prepared to get out of bed for that rate of pay we are better off on welfare.” Hence that is why unemployment is so high in Britain. So those who shout out regarding migrants working in and taking there jobs get out of bed and earn some self respect for yourselves.
    However what I do disagree with is economic migrants are able to claim our benefits and (child benefit/working tax credit) and send it home to their families.

  78. Alan Stewart

    I have seen many towns and citys taken over by non integrating asians, I have seen my country change for the worse and I dont like it, but no politicians seem to care for how i feel.

  79. Chris Brown

    We have got to have more control, and while that still might not be easy outside the EU, the prospects for that inside the EU are minimal.
    The current rates of immigration are having marked negative effects, not over the whole country, but in major cities which are being affected by immigrants heading for areas where their family or language is already established. This is quite expected and has happened elsewhere in the world (Welsh miners in Patagonia!) but the numbers at such a rate into a densely populated country and not evenly distributed is something that needs to be cut back markedly.

    That’s not to speak about refugees with genuine cases for asylum.
    A different category entirely from economic migrants.

    • Perky

      We can’t do anything about immigration unless we lose tariff free access to the single market, and that would be very costly indeed as we would no longer be competitive in our largest trading bloc. The EU won’t want to show other EU countries that there is a way out that allows any special deals to be done for fear of a domino effect and the system that they are so fundamentally dependent on collapsing. So it’s going to be the EEA we join, like Norway. That has exactly the same free movement of people and workers’ rights as we have now. We can’t send people home because they’ll be covered by the Vienna Convention with their rights to stay protected. Therefore, no change in immigration at all.

    • Chris Brown

      to Perky:
      ” The EU won’t want to show other EU countries that there is a way out that allows any special deals to be done for fear of a domino effect and the system that they are so fundamentally dependent on collapsing. ”
      I don’t disagree.and it’s damning. Not only is the EU leadership not responding to dissatisfaction levels in citizens of a range of EU countries, it is moving between ignoring it and repressing it.
      “From the EU there is no escaping!”
      If the British vote by majority for “remain”, that will be the last significant vote the British population will get. Changing politicians in the UK Parliament will then be, in the standard expression, rather like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic..

    • Perky

      Germany will have two competing self interests to balance, one is the benefit of a free trade deal with the UK (which ordinarily would be what they want if we were oustide of the EU coming in), and the other is the significantly more important one of protection of the EU project and the integrity of the single market. Given they export to us, and 26 other countries in the EU that make up the bulk of their trade (who are also dependent on the project succeeding), the latter is going to take priority by far.
      But this is just defending national interest, just like we would. Imagine if we had a similar situation to Germany with an utter reliance on the EU system working for us, we helped set up and pay for the club, and one of the countries were to threaten to leave. Do you think we would not act in a similar way? Would we not want that to be seen by others as a more costly option than staying in the club?
      There’s nothing surprising in this at all. it’s like complaing that you get to play golf at the local golf course for free in exchange for a membership fee, and then when you decide not pay that membership fee complain that it’s more expensive to play. The reason it’s more expensive is to make it more attractive to be in the club, and less attractive to leave.

  80. al

    250 comments and nearly all are formed from the mainstream media. you must do your own research, the eu benefits the rich elites . the rich elites own and control the mass media, simply look on google and youtube and find an abundance of facts and figures that show just how seirios this is, read about the countless countries that have booming economies that have never been part of the eu, the common market thing is noncence, THE EU IS NOT FOR OUR BENIFIT, THE EU ARE NOT STUPID OR INCOMPETENT, ITS DOING EXACTALLY WHAT THEY WANT IT TO DO, IT GIVES THEM CONTROL OVER US WITHOUT ARE SAY, IE ITS A DICTATORSHIP, and it makes them all richer by the day at the same time, ps it will make no difference to immigration in or out

  81. bjays

    We are being ruled by unelected and unaccountable members of the E.U. we can’t vote them out, we can’t hold them to account for their actions, what’s sort of democracy is this? It is plain to see this JUST ISN’T DEMOCRACY.

    Any politician that supports us staying in the E.U. doesn’t know the meaning of democracy and shouldn’t be representing the British people, they certainly do not have our welfare at heart, it seems to be “I’m alright Jack pull the ladder up”
    For all those who think that staying in the E.U. is the best option, I would point you to the old saying “be careful for what you wish for” This is our biggest decision for centuries, DO YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY BACK OR DON’T YOU???

  82. JohnDoe

    Yes. If we remain in the EU we can say goodbye to general and local elections as all our local affaire will be managed from Brussels….quotas for this and that, how we manage the country side etc etc. We have had democracy, habeus corpus and parliament since about 1280. Don’t forget the saying “absolute power corrupts absolutely” it might feel scary to come out, but to stay in will be worse. Losing control, which is what it will mean. The EU is too blunt an instrument for everyone to be happy. The European ideal was good for 1945 but things have moved on. Can you imagine a war with Germany now? I think there are more than enough clever people in the foreign and civil service, not to mention politicians who will be able to make a Brexit work

  83. John watkins

    Why can’t we use the millions of pounds that we give to the EU every week to pay for protecting our borders,increase our security, we are a relativley small island that is starting to get very crowded, we have British people out of work and lots of immergrants working and sending there money out of the country,it has been said that the immergrants do the work that the British won’t do, the fact is that there are many British unemployed people that are more than capable of unskilled labour but don’t want to, able bodied British people that are capable of work should have there benefit stopped if they refuse to help the country out with unpaid work.
    Many of the countries that are in the EU are in financial trouble, many have had to be bailed out with huge loans, so how would we be worse off by not being part of the EU.
    The fact is that with the £200 Million we give them each week spent on us we would be better placed to keep Britain safe.
    Less immergrants means less pressure on our hospitals and our benefit system, We have already let too many unskilled people in,we give them money and houses when there are British people homeless, ex-forces people who have served our country living on the streets with empty stomachs.
    Who is planting the bombs, who is thretening us, we should vet every person coming into the country the same as Australia does.
    Voting to come out of the EU should be thought about as it could be beneficial.

    • James McManama

      “Why can’t we use the millions of pounds that we give to the EU every week to pay for protecting our borders,increase our security”

      1) We can’t use the money for anything if we leave the EU, because leaving the EU will cost us more than we currently pay in. So, we will have less money to spend outside the EU. We will lose money, and we will be less safe (as predicted by the Bank of England, IMF, etc.).

      2) “We have British people out of work and lots of immergrants working and sending there money out of the country”

      The UK has, in living memory, never had such low unemployment rates as today. The latest labour market report, released two days ago, shows that the employment rate in the UK has hit 74.2%, the highest since records began in 1971. If we leave the EU, we will have higher unemployment and more people out of work.

    • Sheffield

      Is it the EU’s fault that the UK has a workforce that cannot compete for job applicant ions from people speaking in their second language? Johns use of the word “immergrants” is a case in point.

    • Stephen

      We will be poorer if we leave. Less than 1% of government expenditure goes to the EU and for that we gain; access to the largest single market in the world and the opportunity to change the laws that affect that trade.
      Most people would be poorer if we leave.

  84. daddum

    The EU is supposed to be about trade. Group of people who help each other out.
    So why do they pass laws on how powerful a vacuum cleaner can be or a kettle or a hair dryer, or spend millions on meetings and consultations deciding which plug socket we will have in our house in the future, or what VAT rate we should have or what chemicals we can put on our crops, I could go on and on the list is endless. it is no longer about trade it is about control !!!
    Even Mervyn King the last Governor of the Bank of England has spoken out about the outlandish statements from the BSE camp and stated in his book that the proposed Fiscal Union of the EU will Tear it Apart!.
    Do we really want to be in the middle of that when it happens ?
    Even German voters are asking for a referendum on leaving the EU.
    I live in North Derbyshire and the farmers around here have got Vote Leave Banners everywhere. I work in an engineering company that has replaced 40% of it’s staff with EU staff, why ? I guess because they are cheaper. It is destroying the UK. we own 70% of the water in the EU but get 13% of whats in it. Will be interesting to see if Scotland joined as a member STATE (we are no longer countries we are states) in it’s own right if it would have to give up some of the oil rights to other countries in the EU.
    How anyone can believe Cameron, who tripled university fees, claims we will have world war 3 and has not actually got any agreement on anything as they wont vote on his concessions unless we vote to stay!
    There are 10000 officials in the EU that earn more than Cameron. Of course they want to stay in the club, it’s there next job, there next bonus, there next gravy train, 70% pension and only 6% tax if you get on that gravy train.
    in the words of JFK “ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country” the answer is

    • Sheffield

      Yes it’s terrible that Uk workers are out competed by people speaking in a second language – particularly if that’s in skilled technical work like engineering . But is that really the EU’s fault that the UK has a workforce that can’t compete in this way?

    • Stephen

      I don’t believe Cameron, but we will be poorer if we leave. The EU will still be there whether we’re able to influence it or not. To waste the UK – Leave.

  85. Yasmine

    The BBC news website today has an article on the approach of the UK’s Commonwealth citizens towards the EU referendum. A topic that has been kept quiet about, as one of the main arguments for leaving the EU has been “immigration”, ie freedom of movement of individuals, and leaving the EU would actually simply mean that the countries of origin of migrants will change to further afield and culturally more distant and harder to integrate. A taboo subject in the light of a string of terror attacks on EU targets by the children and grand-children of exactly such migrants. And a taboo to such an extent that this very page decided to censor it while there was an attempt to debate it on here…

    It is very interesting and worth the read:

  86. daddum

    WOW !! People are actually starting to believe the story that we have to accept free movement of people if we have a trade deal with the U.S.E.
    funny how the TTIP deal with the U.S.A does not require free movement of people.
    neither does canada, or china, or mexico in fact the U.S.E has trade agreements with over 100 countries, and only 5 have agreed to free movement of people.
    you might also want to look at this report on the bbc website

    what I find amazing is that everyone that wants us to stay has their own reason, they are all looking after themselves and not the UK. If we really are so important, then why did we not get more concessions ?
    One final point is that Cameron got nothing, they wont actually vote on his concession until we agree to stay.
    Just like they have put off announcing the new EU budgets until after independence day.
    most people in the country know so little about the EU, do you know that there are 4 presidents ? do you know that there are 3 parliament building (the decided to have a spare just in case !) They dont even know themselves how many people work for them !

  87. bjays

    The European Commission warned the UK is heading for an ‘acute’ housing crisis caused by massive population growth.
    Really? tell us something that we don’t already know!
    It admitted that first-time buyers were being hit particularly hard and the situation could worsen, with official projections saying the UK needs at least 220,000 new houses a year.
    “The situation could worsen” there is no “COULD” about, it WILL! and continue to do so.
    But, rather than acknowledging the clamour in the UK for stricter border controls to ease demand, the Commission ordered (YES “ORDERED”) Britain to ‘take further steps to boost housing supply’. O.K. so where’s the money coming from?
    We will also need, (sorry no, let me rephrase that) we need now, more Hospitals, Doctors, Nurses, Schools, Teachers, Public Transport, Roads, the list is never ending.
    The so called facts for and against Brexit are all based on at best opinions or suppositions, and at worst from those who have vested interest of the outcome. It seems, that most of the wealthy people are for staying in the E.U. but some of the wealthy are for leaving, is it that one group are better informed than other? NO I doubt it, I can’t see that those are for us leaving the E.U. have anything to gain, I can only conclude that they have Britain’s best interest at heart, whilst the others put their own interest first.
    We are increasingly being ruled by unelected bureaucrats that are incapable, we are no longer a democracy, our county is fast going down the pan.
    There are NO facts or certainties barring ONE, whatever the consequences of leaving the E.U. our situation WILL GET FAR WORSE if we stay

  88. steve britain

    if we were not in eu and were voting to join with what we have seen going on would we vote to join not in million years because it stinks to the core so we have only one option get out and leave unless your what my albanion freinds call the the yellow coward english by the way they say we need to get out strange that my indian freinds say the same so have we got the guts i think not

  89. iain

    what immigration has done to this country is criminal as it has change a country no one pre 1995 wanted changing
    we had a strong manufacturing industry exported and had wealth in the middle classes now we have over filled schools housing no one under 35 can afford unless sugar daddy pays the deposit a rubbish care system full of neglect andabuse and filled with migrant workers who dont care about looking after the elderley a chaotic transport system where you cant move about with any sense of an over loaded network and the nhs bursting and everyone from the rich to the poor scamming to make a buck here and there

    the eastern europeans should return to there own country and do what they want to do there not here
    the pakistanis should do the same
    and the whites should reclaim the land we fought 2 wars over
    its our country a church of england land not muslim or any other cult

    we sh
    not this sham liberal c place

  90. daddum

    I think Bjays make some very valid points. At the end of the day, big business wants us to stay, political leaders want us to stay, they have their own self interested reasons for this. Lots of patriotic wealthy people want us to leave as do lots of small businesses. But one thing is for certain, THERE IS NO STATUS QUO. If you vote to stay, then it’s a vote for change decided by Brussels, if you vote to leave then it’s a vote for change decided by the UK.
    I suspect that if it was a vote to leave, during the 2 years of negotiations, Brussels would throw so many concessions at us that we would be asked to vote again. If we vote to stay then you will get a lot more of this small sample below
    Airborne noise emitted by household appliances directive
    Appliances burning gaseous fuels directive
    Artificial optical radiation directive (2006/25/EC in force from 5 April 2006)
    Battery directive (2006/66/EC in force from 6 September 2006)
    Cableway installations designed to carry persons directive
    Colours for use in foodstuffs (1994/36/EC 30 June 1994)
    Construction Products Directive
    Dangerous Preparations Directive (1999/45/EC in force from 30 July 2002)
    Efficiency requirements for new hot-water boilers fired with liquid or gaseous fuels directive (“Boilers directive”)
    Electromagnetic compatibility directive (“EMC directive”)
    Energy efficiency requirements for ballasts for fluorescent lighting directive
    Energy efficiency requirements for household electric refrigerators, freezers and combinations thereof directive
    Equipment and protective systems intended for use in potentially explosive atmospheres (94/9/EC “ATEX directive”)
    Explosives for civil uses directive
    Food supplements directive (2002/46/EC 10 June 2002)
    General product safety directive
    Interoperability of trans-European conventional rail system directive
    Interoperability of trans-European high-speed rail system directive
    Landfill Directive
    Lifts Directive
    Low voltage Directive
    Machinery directive
    Marine equipment directive
    Measuring instruments directive
    Minimum requirements for improving the safety and health protection of workers potentially at risk from explosive atmospheres (99/92/EC “ATEX directive”)
    Noise emission in the environment by equipment for use outdoors directive
    Non-automatic weighing instruments directive
    Packaging and packaging waste directive
    Personal protective equipment directive (“PPE directive”)
    Pressure Equipment Directive
    Product liability directive
    Promotion of electricity produced from renewable energy sources (“Renewables Directive”)
    Promotion of cogeneration based on a useful heat demand in the internal energy market (2004/8/EC “CHP Directive”)
    Promotion of the use of biofuels and other renewable fuels for transport
    Radio equipment and telecommunications terminal equipment and the mutual recognition of their conformity directive (1999/5/EC “R&TTE Directive”)
    Recreational Craft Directive
    Registration, Evaluation and Authorisation of Chemicals (“REACH directive”)
    Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive (RoHS) (“RoHS directive”)
    Restrictions on marketing and use of certain dangerous substances and preparations directive (“Azocolourants directive”)
    Safety of toys directive
    Simple pressure vessel directive
    Tobacco Advertising Directive (IP/02/1788)
    Transportable pressure equipment directive

    • Sheffield

      Daddum why do you think that they will throw concessions at us – you seem to trust the EU to an unreasonable degree. We would face a future of economic attrition. Stay and fight our corner- it’s the English way and the only way.

    • Stephen

      Daddum which of those laws is unreasonable?

  91. daddum

    and if you ever thought that the EU was fair place

    THE European Court of Justice ruled yesterday that the European Union can lawfully suppress political criticism of its institutions and of leading figures, sweeping aside English Common Law and 50 years of European precedents on civil liberties.
    The EU’s top court found that the European Commission was entitled to sack Bernard Connolly, a British economist dismissed in 1995 for writing a critique of European monetary integration entitled The Rotten Heart of Europe.

    The ruling stated that the commission could restrict dissent in order to “protect the rights of others” and punish individuals who “damaged the institution’s image and reputation”. The case has wider implications for free speech that could extend to EU citizens who do not work for the Brussels bureaucracy.

    • Hastings

      Hi was it a ruling in the Civil Service Tribubal or was it in the courts – I could not find the case anywhere m. Would you be able to post the source ?

  92. daddum

    Stephen, The point of the EU is that you have to ask why it passes any laws ?
    The WTO does not or any other trading group. And most of the laws already exist in the UK, and the average law takes around 4 years to pass and goodness knows how many hours of debating! So it creates a massive administrative burden for the EU. Great if you work for the EU but not so great if you have follow all these laws as well as all you local laws that cover the same things. The point of most of the laws is to make the EU a level playing field, i.e. take away competition between member countries (oops sorry STATES).
    That means that the only thing that differentiates between countries is cost of labour. So the lower costs states get all the work. Not good for us as manufacturing is moved out of the UK. in fact i watched a very large lorry form the east of Europe unloading today at a factory in staffordshire. The contents of that lorry used to be made at that factory 6 months ago. And that factory has laid 6 people off.

    Hastings, see this link re the dissent

    You misunderstand me, I really dont want to stay in the EU. But from past experience they dont let people leave.Iceland changed it mind and decided to stop the process of joining but the EU still lists them as in the process of joining.
    They kept sending Ireland back to the polls when they decided not to join, until they finally said yes !
    So i suspect that they will throw all sorts of concessions at us and then ask us to vote again.

    I think if we do vote to leave Dave and George etc and anyone else who has campaigned to remain should not be allowed to negotiate our trade deals as they have vested interest in making a very bad deal !

    but hey with over 1000 jobs in the EU that pay more then our PM, you cans see why he wants to stay.

    But remember what Dave and George negotiated has not been voted on yet and will not be voted on until we say we are staying. Also recall that the argument of the question that we should be asked ? “Do you want to stay in a reformed EU?”
    Dave did not want the question asked that way, because the result would be void if the EU voted to not agree to daves reforms.

    Just remember that we are one of the 3 payer, along with Germany and France, if we go, someone has to pick up the slack, and that wont sit well with the Germans !

  93. Hastings

    The reference links to a 2001 article about a 1995 stemming from disciplinary proceedings carried out in 1995. What relevance has this on the debate?

    • Chris Brown

      Because the whistleblower, if you want to downplay it and put it merely disciplinary terms has since been repeatedly proven right about “The Rotten Heart of Europe” .
      And the EU response is not to listen to criticism, or to attempt reform. It is to squash, silence or ignore anything which it does not want to hear.
      Having “influence” on this juggernaut from inside is a non-starter.

    • Hastings

      Chris if I slagged my work off they would have a right to fire me. It’s in my contact. I would have the right to due process. So did this guy. If there had been any mileage is this it would’ve become something already. This is the kind of thing that’s annoying in this debate – you can’t trust what’s written.

  94. Perky

    Why do you think the Working Time Directive individual opt-out has not been removed if countries on the inside have no influence?

  95. hope

    i think we should say in the EU as half our laws are made by the EU and plus our house price wont go up as if we left the EU it would.

    • Chris Brown

      I don’t follow. If the EU is a making laws, it’s unlikely they are making them to suit *us* since they have to aim at an incredibly diverse EU area. So we get stuck with burdensome and inappropriate regulations.

      House prices go in boom and bust cycles. Currently for young people they are too expensive. For people already with houses price change is more notional, since in broad it affects the house they own *and* the house they are gong to buy. Up or down.

  96. daddum

    Has the EU have never heard the saying “Stop digging when your in a hole” so they are now trying to introduce EU wide tax numbers as a prelude to having EU wide Taxation.

    They have started setting up a portal for EU wide tax already at:

    but you do have give the remanians some credit for trying this stunt:

  97. penny roberts

    If we leave the EU there is no reason why we can’t set up the same immigration rules as we have now with genuine nationals from European countries such as Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Norway, Sweden, Austria and Finland.
    This will help expats and any Britain’s wanting to work in these countries and vice versa.
    Who knows, Britain might be the first of many countries to get out and leave the EU bullies to their own devices. Let’s hope so.

  98. penny roberts

    Please visit Youtube and watch, BREXIT THE MOVIE

  99. Peter

    It would’nt, because the powers that be will have to work harder and more intelligently to maintain the status quo

  100. John Doe

    There won’t be a status quo! If we stay in we are heading for total control by eu, over taxation, national insurance and may even have to adopt the euro. What we are in NOW is only the start of the erosion of our parliament and judicial system.
    Their vision I’d a United States of Europe governed by unelected ministers

    • Peter Poe

      Yes, John. One EU to rule them all, One EU to bind them, One EU to bring them all, and in the darkness (of the not so enlightened) bind them. And behind all sits Mrs Merkel, the evil eye, who wants to see the British suffer in revenge for WW2. Britain, my precious ;-)
      And now back to earth, please.
      Taxation, national insurance and currency are and will be agreed on on different levels and from different institutions after complex decision processes. Maybe one day the EU will also be one of these institutions, but there will never be a centralized structure comparable to the Soviet Union, as some people claim. That would simply not be in the interersts of the national governments (including the British government with veto rights in many policies) that really rule the EU and that love to hide behind evil eurocrats.

  101. Peter

    I just watched that ‘Brexit, the movie’. Wow, what a misleading compilation.

    Be warned, I am German and may want to mislead you myself into a German-run EU empire. ;-) In fact, I am just interested in the debate and how voters are influenced by the campaigns.

    There may be too many regulations in the EU, but crediting deregulations of former minister and chancellor Ludwig Erhard as responsible for the onset and ‘French’ regulations for the end of German Wirtschaftswunder is quite a distorted image. On the contrary, the Reagan-Kohl-Thatcher time financial market deregulations are the reason why there is still billions of tax-money lost in order to save banks. Ludwig Erhard at least stood for framework regulations.

    If you are interested in some ‘external’ thoughts on the whole debate: I wonder why the EU membership is the only national policy, British people are directly asked on. I ask myself who will benefit from further deregulated financial markets that will most certainly be the outcome of a Brexit decision. In my view, this is a prime mover for the whole referendum anyhow, not democracy as it is claimed. Is it the people profitting from deregulation or is it maybe some influential investment bankers whose employers are much more important for the British economy than fisheries, industry and even politicians ;-) combined? Did you ask yourselves what is the background of Mr Farages wife, responsible for much of his work? Did you ask yourselves who might be happy about a weakened EU apart from some European nationalists? Certainly, US and Chinese companies would.
    Compared to e.g. the British military, British EU contribution is quite a small investment in Eastern and Southern Europe in order to support infrastructure there. I don’t shut my eyes when it comes to the forced upon austerity policies, but that could be tackled in the near future if there would only be some kind of bail-out for unbearable debts. There is enough money in the rescue fonds already today, if EU states would only allow a few bank insolvencies in a regulated process. Sadly, EU policy is ‘discipline’ before bail-out, not along.

  102. Peter Castermans

    We will stop halting refugees. Now it’s our common problem then every refugee who will pass the border isn’t ours anymore.

  103. Claudio Bartoletti

    i think the uk has a situation that with so many huslims that have become citizens, they would still bring in family non stop, better than the european invasion perone non grata’s.

    • Perky

      Damn all those huslims, keep them out the country is what I say :-D

  104. Stefania Portici

    Sir Mark Sykes (inglese ) e George Picot (francese ) 1916 radice del problema arabo e USA dopo. Ora dopo aver creato il problema non si può lasciare che le conseguenze ricadino su altri

  105. Rui Correia

    Come on… Let’s be decent and absolutely honest with our British friends/neighbours/colleagues/brothers! Afterall, this was supposed to be a “Union”, not a bunch of countries ripping off richer neighbours… So, moving forward: should they decide to leave the EU, they would/could (??) pay an economic price in the short/medium-term eventually… but they would take back control of their own borders, that’s the truth. And that would have a positive effect on immigration for the UK, because they would be able to choose and select who they want in, for whatever reason. Currently, they are forced to accept everyone from EU countries, and/or with EU countries’ issued documents, nationalities, maybe even double-nationalities or whatever, all from neighbouring countries they do not control, it’s crazy!… it’s almost the same “free-for-all” one sees in the Schengen area – not quite the same, there are still significant differences “here or there”, but still it’s almost the same. And it’s not fair on them. All Non-Brits, please put yourselves in their shoes… it’s like living in your own house, and giving away the keys of the front door (and a few back doors too) to a bunch of people you barely know!… just not fair!… Today’s EU may suit some European countries mainly for geopolitical reasons and identity reasons, but it doesn’t suit others, it’s as simple as that, period. But moving forward even more into the long-term future, one could ask: and what’s next?? What type of immigration policies would be put in place for the UK?? How would things work, after a Brexit??? That’s key… because looking at the country right now, even without taking into account EU immigration… Britain doesn’t seem to get a grip on immigration figures, regardless if it’s from EU or from Non-EU countries!!… And they don’t even seem to know the difference, or what kind of immigration they would prefer?? Or how would they do things instead??? I hear lots of ideas, but there are no tangible proposals for the future… just scaremongering from both sides “Remainers” and “Leavers”… hmm…????? (yes, lots and lots of question marks) :-P

  106. jenny warwick

    Wealthy leaders from the EU #remain camp will never know devasting effect EU immigration has on ordinary people … headlines today in the media – 28 May.

    Its for this very reason why a distinction is needed when referring to the EU immigration. The media tends to generalise and confuse the immigration debate, they need to be specific in terms of western europeans and eastern europeans otherwise all people in EU are misrepresented

    Most people are accepting of immigration as long as it has an economic value and can be controlled preferably with a visa point system. UK have grown so accustomed to the intake of skilled immigrants from western european countries and commonwealth countries. So when the influx of hundred and thousands of east europeans coming to the UK after 2014 reached record highs its no wonder the immigration debate is one of the most talked about issue on EU referendum for both #remainVote #leaveVote

    Its difficult to estimate the true extent of net immigration from Eastern Europe since 2004. UK taxpayers never expected population explosion on such a scale would become so unmanageable over such a short period, everyone is now worried about the long-term future not only on the next generation, but the impact on the economy, over-crowding in their cities, strain on the public services

    If uncontrolled immigration continues to exist, free movement & increase of
    – east european migrants will also continue to rise,
    – additional immigration from newly joined EU countries
    – non-EU refugee migrants from EU member states in UK

    – UK citizenship: more east europeans in UK granted citizenship

    knock on effect causes further overcrowding …
    – Medical: NHS, GP, dentist, hospital waiting list
    – Education: School & Nursery
    – Housing & Planning
    – Public Transport

    it affects and increases
    – Unemployment
    – Security
    – Crime

    – 1 in 10 people in UK is from eastern europe
    – UK overpopulated with 330k east european migrants
    – Polish is 2nd most spoken language in UK

    Its a no brainer, leaving the EU affect immigration in Britain in a big way:

    – immigration levels falls: eradicate uncontrolled immigration
    – security: enforce border controls
    – controlled movement: restrictions on refugee / economic migrant
    – businesses: better access to skilled workers over non skilled
    – BRexit: will not stop EU immigration from eastern europe

    Government classify east europeans as economic migrants, on short stay in the UK, when infact they have no intention of returning to eastern europe because the benefit system is so good,

    It was always going to be a disaster waiting to happen, if less people are emigrating and more immigrating into the UK. The notion of free movement + no border controls + attractive benefits system that give people access to claim benefits even if they haven’t contributed, people find loopholes to buck the system: (get pregnant, take low paid jobs) the typical pattern ordinary people see and hear about everyday, why are more east europeans …

    – in unskilled, or low skilled employment
    (hospitality work, coffee shops, cleaners, security guards, high street shops, supermarkets, bank receptions, bank front counter staff);
    – pushing up unemployment stats
    – overstretching NHS & public services
    – creating demand for housing
    – always pregnant (pushing a pram with a walking toddler in tow).

    Immigration with no economic value is a major concern and huge burden on cities and strain on the economy

    • Perky

      As I see it there are roughly 50-50 split between EU migrants and non-EU migrants. We already have control over non-EU migrants, so why is the figure that high? The reason is businesses are recruiting them. They’re doing that to fill the shortage in skills and labour. Similarly EU migrants are filling shortages too, we have one of the lowest unemployment rates of any EU country but it’s not zero, it’s around 5%. So the reality is we need migrant workers to keep the unemployment figures down. A choice of Brexit may end up having lower migration, but the result witll be higher unemployment and less efficient businesses because they can’t recruit. Given these migrants are net contributors to the economy what we actually need is more investment in the social side of things, like housing and services, and that is something we can do without a Brexit and with all the benefits of full EU market access and the EU’s trade agreements with other countries (around 56 of them).

  107. Sebastien Chopin

    refugees are not immigrants… And Eastern europeans were considered economic refugees when they joined in 2004…

  108. Andrew

    I can’t see any significant difference between non-eu and eu migration in the UK and feel the immigration question is irrelevant to “in” or “out”? I may be wrong but understand that both migrant types have to be generally self financed but that EUs can come in whether or not they have a job or family to go to?

    If we give EUs the same status as NON-EUs is that really going to discourage EUs from coming to this country as long as they can afford to? The situation is an internal one with businesses taking advantage of immigrant workers, and maybe the NHS should be able to charge non-brits for services under certain tested conditions?

    • Gabriel

      Why would you charge me if I pay taxes and a lot of money for NHS every month deducted from my salary?(don’t get me wrong pay taxes and contribute to the health system is the key things that everybody Must do)
      But charging working professionals just because they did not born in a country seems a little unfair.
      What makes you a better contributor from the government point of view ?

      The below is not personally for you (I do apologise to write it in the same comment)
      I have an English friend who commented on people ranting on steeling jobs:
      If a foreign person who speaks English as a second language can beat you on a job market the only one who can blame is yourself. (Please note that I am not talking about people working without contracts)

      I look forward to see what will be the outcome on 23rd as I don’t have a vote :)

      Best regards

  109. Peter

    Agree with everything you have said; the whole vote can be likened to riding a horse, blindfolded shooting at a moving target in the dark, I believe there is strength in numbers and will be votong IN

    • Chris Brown

      Not if the numbers (or more, their leaders) are heading the wrong way.
      the EU is unstable even without its intended enlargement.
      Politically, economically and socially.
      Staying in is not “no risk”. It’s not even the lower risk, as I weigh it.
      Check out the youth unemployment situation in the rest of the EU, or the debt situation in Spain and Portugal, the banking problems in Italy and, oh yes, Greece: a major problem only postponed, not resolved.

      This is not a club that it’s a safe and reassuring idea to be a part of.

    • Peter

      Greetings from another Peter. Why do you believe that Brexit has a lower risk? Why do you cite Spanish, Portugese and Greek state debts while you exactly know that British taxpayers did not take part in the euro rescue fonds? Who is responsible for the high unemployment in Southern Europe? EU/ECB/IMF or maybe Southern European labour markets themselves together with former ample state employment while taxation esp. of the rich on the same time was almost non-existent? Former governments are to blame here. Please mind the reality.

    • Ronnie Shakespeare

      I can see the benefits in staying in the EU! So why can’t this government sort the infrastructure out quick enough for the flow of migrants comming Into the country. All the cuts the government is doing at such a high and fast pace seems counterproductive. These people comming in need housing, NHS care. Schools. We need more police with fast expanding population not cut backs. With housing shortage and all other shortages. How can this government deal with it all without some sort of control over it all ?

  110. JamesRuddy

    I think that Great Britain should leave the E.U.

    • Andrew

      The relentless call for facts and figures suggests none of us really know, do we? Perhaps we are paying now for years of indifference to the EU and our place in it?

      I confess to having no idea who my MEP is. For all I know he or she could be a highly professional, experienced politician always fighting in my corner, or just a lazy, useless waste of space enjoying a cushy life at my expense.

      The “Campaingners” are exploiting our ignorance but it won’t work because they forget we are intelligent.

      I agree with Teresa May and Lord Blunkett, there is a lot wrong with the EU and they need us to take full advantage of them. Immigration has always been a challenge and we are not going to make the difference by quitting.

      By far and away, our safer option, the better of two evils, is to stay in. Not an easy choice but only an idiot would jump out of the office window without knowing how far it is off the ground.

  111. Alana Kristen

    It would be absurd and pritty dumb to vote leave in the midsts of globalization. We DON’T need more states, we DON’T need anymore divisions. Tightening border control and security could be completely attainable if UK remains WITHIN the EU not out.

    • Ronnie Shakespeare

      How can the UK tighten border control when there is free movement of people by remaining WITHIN the EU ?

  112. daddum

    Its’s not like jumping out of an office window, it more like leaping off a ship that is heading somewhere and the captain will not tell you where it is going and will not listen to you even though the ship is taking on water and keeps taking on more passengers and then you are asked for more money to help feed the extra passengers. What are you going to do?, stay on that ship or take your chances in the water, were you are in control. According to my financial adviser, the only issue with Brexit is uncertainty. The markets dont like uncertainty. But as he said to me, “it does not matter what trade deals the UK negotiates, just as long as it gets some, as the markets will always find a way to make money”. Ah but what about the doom and gloom of project fear saying the pound will drop in value? “Not a problem really as the Euro will fall even further or at least the same” But what about house prices? “If they go down then first time buyers will have field day and less migration means lower rents the only looser will be the big landlords” But what happens in 5 years time ? “The Euro will be toast and the UK will just leave the rest of the EU behind as in the long term we have a far more stable economy and control of our own fiscal policy, but in the short term there will be a wobble mainly caused by the risk now of a general election”.
    bear in mind the “Dave” (Cameron) was only around 9 years old when we entered the EEC so has not seen the changes. Also bear in mind that they dont teach about the EU in school so the younger generations have no idea of how it works, Try a test, ask anyone below the age of 30 what country the EU parliament building is in? Most will say Brussels ! the actual answer is “which one” as there are 3. Ask who the president is, one again the answer should be which one as there are 4 !
    Even after all the rebates etc we still spend around £300 per second of every hour of every day.

    • Andrew

      Hi Ronnie. My understanding from reading up official documents is it is all very confusing. But to me the big difference between EU and NON-EU entrants is that the NONs need a passport and a Visa which controls their entry status. The EUs do not go through this process so on the face of it can come in regardless of whether or not they are self-financing. But neither can come in and help themselves to our benefits and housing until they are contributing to our economy. If correct, that seems fair enough to me because are EU entrants going to come to the UK if they haven’t any financial means of support? Surely for them there is no point so is this self controlling?

      If British businesses are taking advantage of lower wages surely they will continue to attract entrants regardless of whether or not we are still in? That’s our fault not the EU’s. If we start discouraging EUs to come here by re-introducing Visas and passports etc isn’t it us who will ose out in the end?

  113. Ellie Parnell

    I am doing a essay for college and I was wondering if anyone could help. If we stay in the EU how will this effect immigration.

  114. daddum

    The EU works for big business, they get cheap labour, in a way it is exploitation.
    That is why Dave Cameron etc are all so desparate to remain, it is to keep their business backers happy. Just google “doctors jobs in the UK” or “Nursing Jobs in the UK” you will find loads of private companies bringing in overseas doctors and nurses. It makes them lots of money.

    I have seen 6 of my friends loose their jobs becuase the work that they did was moved to eastern europe, becuase even after shipping the bits out there and then bring the finished items back, it was still cheaper that employing british labour. the minimum wage in the UK is 1398 euro per month, in bugaria it is 215, take a look here to see how different the wages are, how can this ever work?
    when we vote to leave, we will not be allowed to, the remain side have already said that thie referendum is not binding on politicians. And they will fight to the death to maintain free movement of people because it makes money for the big companies. But is bad for small businesses and at the end of the day we are just a nation of shop keepers.

  115. daddum

    and I am british and I think we are still exploiting other countries by using them as cheap labour.
    Interesting Listening to the French and Romanian people on Radio 4 this morning, they hate the EU even more than us !

  116. Paula

    What you are saying is interesting but only one side of the story. When Bulgaria joined the EU back in 2007 many Brits went there to buy properties. You can only imagine what happened to the property prices when mighty British pensioners competed with the poor Bulgarian families with those low salaries that you mentioned. Many families were burdened with loans many times their yearly income (if not above their life income!). Where do you think these families are now trying to still make money to pay their mortgages (house prices are a lot lower now)? Some of them are in the UK cleaning toilets (they may have a degree or two though but poor English as they were taught Russian in school for obvious reasons). The EU debate is not a simple one. If it was a question of whether UK to join the EU that would have been a whole different stories. This union has cost a lot of people a lot! One thing to remember though borders create wars, wars create misery, misery makes people want peace, the desire for peace makes people abolish borders. We don’t have to learn that lesson again do we?

  117. Flavio

    People think EU citizens automatically have the right of abode in the UK and viceversa. (The right to be in that certain country no matter what).
    As a matter of fact, that’s not the case. See it like having an automatic work visa when you arrive to the UK: you can use your EU passport to look for work, yes, but not get on welfare, and if someone does a pretty major criminal offence CAN and WILL be deported.
    So saying you don’t want immigrants is just silly. Immigrants help enormously to British economy, and sure, there can be some criminals, just like there will be even more criminals who were born in the UK.

  118. daddum


    The problem is not just immigration, the problem is the access to and availability of cheap labour. And it is not just in the UK, a friend of mine at the GE factory in mannhiem in germany tell me that GE got rid of 900 people the other week as there jobs have been transferred to eastern europe.

    Big business is doing well out of access to cheap labour, including the privatised parts of the NHS. On the basis that your employer pays 13.8% National Insurance contributions on your salary, by having access to people that will work for the minimum wage then he saves the salary and the NI contributions and also some pension as well, but by having free access to eastern Europe they pay even less. The big businesses that want us to stay in the EU are exploiting poor countries. And it is complete fiction that the financial sector wants us to leave, try reading the City AM news paper in canary wharf, about 70% of people are looking forward to leaving. And this is understandable as Cameron agreed as part of his “reforms” that there would be “A single rule book for financial regulation to ensure a level playing field within the internal market” in other words there will be no competition between member states for financial services, so that takes away Londons competitive edge.So why would HSBC stay here or JP Morgan etc if the same rules apply if they move to say, Zurich ?

    To stay in the EU is totally mental, we will end up like Greece or Spain.
    and Indian friend of mine wants to vote but is not allowed as he has not been in the UK long enough, but he has to pay £200 a year for himself, £200 for his wife (who works here) and £200 for his baby daughter for the annual visa. yet someone from the EU pays nothing.

    Some people are saying that we need to stay because of the Human Rights Act etc. Well Cameron tried to get that scrapped as part of his reforms!

    • Paula

      I believe that the European Union was the first step to abolishing borders between countries. The hope is that one day there will be no borders in the world and people will be free to move but they will stay where they are because poverty will be irradiated and they will prefer staying with their families… It is a dream I know but it a better goal to aspire towards than building walls and setting borders. One country is rich today , another will be rich tomorrow! Humanity should be able to see the bigger picture.

    • Andrew

      Just to be clearer. “So what?” EU citizens cannot access or benefit from our Welfare State. This is being said over and over again. So is there any point in an EU citizen coming here without means of support? Doesn’t that control EU migration? The same thing applies to us going abroad?

  119. Hannah Baker

    I don’t know what effect leaving the EU would actually have on immigration but what I do know is that Britain (particularly England) isn’t getting a fair deal by being part of the EU. The mass immigration that has occurred over the past few years has had a detrimental impact on the lives of the British. When Brits go abroad to live they are not entitled to the same benefits that those coming here receive. I lived and worked in Spain for a short while with my daughter. I had to pay for her education and was not entitled to any form of benefits and rightly so! Now I have a 7 year-old son he cannot get into a school because the schools are full to capacity. He has been on the waiting list for over 7 months now! His local school is just down the road (3 minutes walk away). When I pass the school there are many parents from the Czech Republic/Eastern Europe and of course Brits are going to feel frustrated/angry when their country’s at bursting point, when they are being denied their basic rights, such as an education for their child(ren), whilst those immigrating to England can easily obtain child places at a school, child benefits and other (once was) British benefits. I know some Polish immigrants who spend all their money in their own country, every school holiday they go back to their country. A few have made it clear that they are here because they want a good education for their children and then their children can go back to Poland. We are educating for free so when these children grow up they will not be putting back into this country but their own! Whilst my son can’t even get a place in a school because the schools are ‘full to capacity’.. The future British generations are the ones who are paying the price and no one seems to give a damn about it.
    How can it be fair that anyone coming here is entitled to child benefit and even claim for children living in their own country of birth? There is no denying this fact, things have to change and they have to change fast because England isn’t able to fund and give everything to so-called EU-citizens.

    • Paula

      Sorry to hear about your son not getting a school place. I agree that it is not an ideal situation. However, I don’t think that closing borders helps anyone. Why not split the UK since the north is not contributing as much as the south? Or may be remove the north of Spain from the rest since they are doing ten times better? Unity, humility and love is what makes us human. If we give up these values wars are eminent.

    • Stephen Rees

      Hi, I am also sorry to hear about your kids and the school situation. This is not good at all.

      I’m not sure leaving the EU helps us though. We are being told being out of the EU will give us better control of our boarders but no one is telling us how we will do this. We currently get support from France to control boarders because we are part of the EU. While it’s not ideal I agree, not having France Supporting us will mean we have to put even more resources into place to protect our own boarders. Greece cannot stop the immigrants arriving 100’s in each boat coming from Syria. I am concerned that we will experience the same issues.

      Surly we should stay in the EU with the benifits and the support of other EU countries and all join together to make sure our government does more to control Immigration. Everyone who has moved here is not going to go home after the vote. Is the leave campaign saying anything about deporting people? It won’t happen so the damage has already been done and this is down to our government and not because we are part of the EU.

    • Hannah Baker

      Paula: It is very frustrating and I’m not the only Brit who is in this situation and no one helps. I have to try to give my son an education whilst he’s at home, which is extremely exhausting and costly. For my son, being at home means no socialising with other children his own age.
      However, I would have to disagree with you about dividing (cutting away) part of another country (in this case, Spain) because they are supposedly doing 10x better which I highly doubt because since the peseta was taken away and replaced with the euro, prices went up throughout all of Spain. In fact Northern Spain has a massive unemployment problem at the moment.
      Wars, including covert invasions/wars have been on-going and they are already happening.
      You think that leaving the EU means that nato will attack Britain for doing so?

    • Paula

      @ Hannah Baker.
      I didn’t know you had to home school. That is ridiculous really! I am not saying that NATO will attack the UK. It is not how I think a war in Europe can start. Let me describe a very welcome scenario for the leave campaign (not saying that it is what will happen if we leave). Borders are shut, gradually people go to their countries (2 million people).There is a slight hit on the UK economy, for argument sake let’s say the economy shrinks just a bit. People will blame the parliament for it. David Cameron leaves! Nationalist parties that will claim “Brexit” is too slow inefficient take lead in Britain… Meanwhile the EU migration is flowing to other EU countries since Britain has a closed door policy so they vote “OUT”. Eurozone fall out follows. A few small countries are left isolated (Bulgaria, Poland, Romania etc.). Now we have nationalist parties in rich countries (UK, Germany etc) and the poor countries on their own. Well going to the old scenario with Russia. Bulgaria, Polland etc. join with Russia. People get poorer riots start. Civil wars start. European War start. No NATO is needed for that… History proves it

  120. Stephen Rees

    If we left the EU, could we actually control the number of people entering the UK? I understand we can control people who try to come into the country leagally but would we not see an increase in illegal immigration and would there be any incentive for France to continue supporting us if we are not in the EU?

    I believe the the high number of immigratnts are mostly caused by our own government and not because we are part of the EU. So what would change if we exit taking into account the points outlined above. And would we have to sign up to free movement anyway to gain access to the single trade market or do we believe we are capable of implementing over 27 different trade agreements in two years to keep the current level of economy we have being part of the EU now? I’m all for greater control in both both our economy and immigration but I can’t see how leaving the EU will help us with either. Surly we just need to be better at negotiating within the EU especially as new trade agreements are very close to completion which will add at least another billion to our economy.

  121. Hannah Baker

    @Bollygood I’m not sure where you live but depending where you live or travel through you’ll see that not all EU citizens who come here and integrate into their community. In fact, there are numerous clubs, shops, hairdressers etc.. That are solely for Polish people staying/living here. Also, you said that people should know the difference between Asian’s, not all brown people are Muslim etc. Well, there are many Asians who are Muslim. Muslims are not a race of people. I travel through Birmingham and believe me there are a lot of Sikh Temples, Hindus etc… as well as Mosques and Churches. Try walking through West Bromwich! Really I mean it just try. It can feel like it’s a case of ‘find an English speaking person’. Not to mention the amount of Indian (mostly old) people who expect everyone and anyone to speak Urdu or Hindu, they are very rude when you reply, ‘sorry but no I don’t’.

  122. Perky

    The EU is supposed to ensure minimum workers rights to prevent a ‘race to the bottom’, and that’s fine as a concept and also in practice. The problem is more that EU citizens take on the rights of a member state that they choose to live and work in. Some member states, like us, have generous benefits and others do not. What the EU should really do is define a minimum standard of welfare for all EU countries that they all have to meet, and then say those benefits have to be claimed from the visiting citizen’s own member state, i.e. the one it is currently a formal citizen of. We should have control over who we allow to become formal UK citizens, and therefore who gains access to our generous welfare. This is not the same as immigration control, neither does it violate free movement of people, the concepts are quite different. I believe we are better in the EU to press for this kind of EU reform rather than risk throwing the baby out with the bath water economically.

    • Hannah Baker

      Perky: For far too long Britain has been giving out and it still continues to give out, a heck of a lot of benefits to EU-citizens who come here. This isn’t a scaremongering myth, it’s absolutely true.
      It’s a great idea that the ‘EU should define a minimum standard of welfare for all EU countries that they all have to meet, and then say those benefits have to be claimed from the visiting citizen’s own member state, i.e. the one it is currently a formal citizen of’ but would they do that really?
      In the meantime, what happens with the overpopulated schools, housing crisis etc.. The cause and effect syndrome, which has clearly been created by this mass immigration?

    • Stephen Rees

      Hi Hanna,

      It’s not fact I’m sorry to say. People coming to the Uk have to work for four years and they are not entitled any bennifits unless they do. This is an agreement that has been signed off and support in the EU.

  123. Perky

    @Hannah: The problem has really been caused by a strong economy. Over half our net migrants are non-EU citizens, and we have control over that, the reason this figure is high is employers are recruiting them to fill the necessary gaps in skills and labour to fill the jobs. EU migrants also do that. We have unemployment of just 5%, and that is being sustained even with large net migration so there’s no argument about flooding the market with workers, because the jobs are there and without the net migrants unemployment would go up, and continue to go up. The biggest failure has been the sheer lack of investment in social infrastructure to keep up (schools, housing, transportation etc.). A sea-change in our government’s policy is necessary here, but with that we could deal not only with the increased numbers but also have a very strong economy, and the results from a strong economy get compounded over the years just like investing in a savings acount with high interest. If you’re going to deal with net migration through Brexit you will necessarily need to depress the economy to reduce the number of new jobs, hold it down artificially and keep holding it down. It makes no sense to me to do that.

    • Perky

      Sorry, that didn’t make sense, I meant to say without net migrants the jobs couldn’t be filled and companies would be inefficient. Just to clarify that if the jobs are there the employers would fill them some how, so if you want to keep net migration low you need to reduce the number of new jobs and artificially hold the economy back. BTW aiming for full employment is not necessarily the best for an economy, it means there could be more jobs than workers and given it’s actually expensive to recruit from non-EU countries (lack of common standards, no additional rights to remain) the result could be inflationary with companies not being as efficient as they could be.

  124. Hannah Baker

    Paula: I have no choice but to homeschool. The response I get from education officials etc is that all schools are full and that we just have to wait.
    The riots in Spain and France are already happening, although the main news haven’t been reporting on it much (if at all?). There’s unrest and dissatisfaction throughout most of Europe. Therefore I also have a scenario, that is, if Britain left the EU, others may follow suit. However, it’ll be the people who do it, not their government.
    Re: ‘Nationalism’ looks far more likely to spread/increase, if we allow more mass EU immigration because this will cause resentment and hostility towards all foreigners (xenophobia). Isn’t it best to stop this before it really does get out of control?

    • Paula

      Sadly but true there is already a lot of dissatisfaction around Europe. Part of it probably is down to immigration but I still don’t think that UK leaving the EU will ease the tension or solve anything.

      Also, I know there is a lot of pressure on public services but at the same time I have a lot of British friends who are enjoying higher rental income and house prices. Not to mention the prospect of retiring in Spain one day when they sell some of their properties. Also I work in medical research which is heavily sponsored by the EU. So it isn’t all bad especially for the UK.

      I am very worried that leaving may make things a bit worse here and a lot in other parts of Europe and I just don’t see the point. What I think is needed is to change the EU but not to destroy it. Leaving will be a childish act like saying “I don’t want to be your friend anymore. I will play with someone else.”.

  125. Hannah Baker

    Stephen Rees. It is true. I know this because in my local building society, I have seen (on more than one occasion) men and women from Poland who cannot speak English. Let me give you one example:
    I was early afternoon, I was sitting and waiting to see an adviser in my building society. There were 4 chairs, a man (who smelled of beer) was standing in front of me. Another man walked in and headed towards him. They conversed in Polish. A staff member approached the men. The second man who came in, said in English (with a thick accent). ‘He needs to open bank account for benefits to go in’. The staff member asked (the first man) if he had any identification and proof of address. The second man replied, ‘he doesn’t speak English’.
    Stephen: Are you seriously trying to say that the Polish man has been living here for 4 years but can’t speak English?
    I can give you other examples of very similar incidences that have occurred in that building society.

    • Stephen Rees

      Hi Hannah,

      So it looks like you believe leaving the EU will fix the problems you have outlined above.

      Do you honestly believe leaving the EU will give us greater boarder control? The thing is, it won’t as the same government in the UK will still be in place.

      If we leave, all the immigrants sitting over in France and many more who then hear that it is easier to get to the UK because there is no agreement with France anymore will all come to the Uk making the situation a lot worse than it is. It’s not being part of the EU that is the problem with immigration, it’s our own government.

      Look at Greece with all the Syrian refugees landing there. That will be the UK and do you think our government will be able to control the vast numbers who come here?

      The promise being made to reduce immigrants has not been backed up by anyone with any facts, just false promises. France is paid by the EU and we have rules in place for boarder controls in France which stops more immigrants coming here. Voting to leave opens our boarders to illegal immigrants. Tell me how it doesn’t. We can’t control our own boarders just now with support from the EU. Imigen what it will be like when France is not being paid and not under any obligation to stop people coming through France to the Uk. Yes, more will come because it will be easier and Switzerland is an example of this with over 4 times more immigrants arriving there than the Uk in 2013z. This is fact.

      You are working on the basis that leaving will mean better control of our boarders. How? It’s not true. You will have even more experiences like the ones you outlined above if we leave and I have done my research on this.

      Voted leave, put the country into recession and invite more people to our country by reducing the level of support we get in the EU.

  126. Paula

    I know people with UK passports and who have lived in Britain for 20 years and don’t speak English

  127. Hannah Baker

    Btw Stephen, those escaping war-torn Syria are not immigrants, they are refugees. There’s a huge difference.
    Most small businesses here in the UK, do most, if not all trade/business with non-EU countries, China and Pakistan are just 2 examples.
    You mention that you are concerned about trade, yet the greatest and most serious threat to trade is that that the TTIP poses. These are deals being drawn up between the EU and the USA and CETA (between the EU and Canada). If this goes ahead it would have a big impact on our councils. In fact, over 1500 councils across Europe have already said they don’t want TTIP. It’s clear that the EU have some unsavory and underhand deals at play.

    • Stephen

      I understand your points and the fact that refugees are very different from immigrants. But my point was more around controlling people coming into the UK. How does leaving the EU help control our boarders better. Because Nigel and Boris say so?

      Also, if I thought we would be better off economically by leaving I would vote leave. We cannot setup the 27 trade agreements we are currently part of in the EU within two years. And we cannot do this without sigining up to the free movement policy which means we have even less say about the points you have said the EU are thinking about implementing.

      And what about Scotland? Our government and many people in the south said Scotland breaking away to be independent would be a financial disaster for the UK. If we do leave the EU, Scotland will hold another referendum and will leave so they can apply to be part of the EU. We are better together. That’s what was said then and the same applies now.

      No one on any forums have been able to give me a good explanation saying how we would control immigration better if we leave the EU but this is one of the main reasons to leave. Fact is we can’t control our boearders better unless we spend a heck of a lot of money in our forces to patrol and protect the whole of the U.K. We currently have three ships patrolling all of the UK which is not enough as we are seeing refugees and immigrants seeking into many harbours around the country.

  128. daddum

    You clearly believe what the remain camp are saying about rights to benefits.
    If you work here or are looking for work here and come from the European Economic Area (EEA) you get benefits !
    There is even a government web site to allow you to assess what you get before you get here!
    As well as a Europa website to tell you what our minimum wage is
    and of course the CAB website to help you out when you get here

    this site tells you how you can get child benefit even if your child is not with you

    check out this useful website and select Poland or any other EEA country and you will see that you dont need a visa

    then there is this website it has handy numbers to call if you need someone to translate for you as well as a link at the bottom that tells you how to get a job in the UK, this site is run by the DWP and paid for the EU, so to put it bluntly our government is actively recruiting from the EU, and they claim they want to reduce migration ??? who are they kidding ?

    if you really want to know what is going on read the book “The Establishment” by Owen jones, you will view the whole debate in a different light, or download it from Amazon/Audible.

    I am 55 years old, I run my own company, and I am also director of a pension fund, I do work in “The City” and work with bankers all the time and I can tell you around 70% want us to leave!

    There reasons that Dave and George etc want us to stay, why did he do his first debate on a private news channel (sky) owned by the father of a man he has sunday lunch with (James Murdoch)?

    Lots of ex MP etc have had involvement with the EU and are entitled to pensions, if we leave they fear they will not get them and they are really BIG pensions up to 70% of salary, index linked !

    • György Gajdos

      What’s wrong with assessing from a website ones options? They work and pay taxes more than the general population

  129. daddum

    Local Government Association Survey for 2014/15 shows a shortfall of in excess of 19000 secondary school places. I have noticed that councils are now advertising for staff to work with immigrants and refugees on a 5 year contract, which implies that the government is expecting migration to continue at it’s current levels for at least 5 years. So that is equivalent to 5 cities of Newcastle that will need to be built to accommodate them. And we wonder why house prices are so high ??

    • György Gajdos

      House prices are high because of the rich of the world are buying real estate for investment purposes. You are only inventing day theories, but the facts are that half of everything is being built now are million pound flats sold off plan. This phenomenon is completely parallel to the immigration of EU workers.

  130. Hannah Baker

    If the ‘La Torque Treaty’ is diminished, then we (the British) will surely shut down that border crossing, which never should have been built in the first place! If they (the current French elitist government) think that they can make their threats of ‘we will open the jungle unto you’: Then we will diminish the Calai feed from this side. Evidently, the migrants will be left for France to deal with because they are on their land. Britain has been made stronger because of 1950’s and 60’s immigration and British integrity lives on and that quality will never be diminish.

    • Paula

      These are people that are fleeing war you know. Your attitude scares me …

    • Paula

      @Ivan. Let’s see how far your British passport gets you after Brexit lol

  131. Callum

    At the very start of this page – e UK is not a member of the passport-free Schengen zone, so it retains border controls and checks, and Britain has refused to take part in any EU scheme to reallocate refugees from the war in Syria (though it has separately promised to resettle 20,000 refugees by 2020. What a load of Bull. Vote to leave the EU no matter what the s***ty politicians tell you because no matter what it’s always going to be s**t all they want to to do is make money for themselves they do not ! Give 2 s**ts about anyone else sorry for the spelling but it’s true sorry to offend anyone

  132. Jane

    You know it makes me laugh, people talk about helping others and changing the world so that all people can have a chance to a decent life. When it comes down to it people really only care about themselves and how much money they will personally loose if we stay or come out. I also feel it brings out and exposes the racsism in people.

    • Paula

      Completely agree!

  133. Tom

    If you look at the Equality Act ( previously Race Relations Act) it defines one of the protected characteristics as nationality. By allowing EU citizens to just walk into the UK, and forcing non-EU citizens to jump through hoops and spend vast sums of money on a visa process we are actively discriminating against non EU citizens based on Race. That is RACIST!

    • Paula

      It is not based on race because there are plenty of European countries that are not in the EU and plenty of black people (my husband included) who are Europeans so I don’t get your point. Also if there are 120 000 people coming from the EU yearly due to free movement of people that is nothing compared to the number you would have if the same was applied for other countries oversea (don’t want to mention names). One day hopefully life will be better everywhere and there will be no need for borders. Until then I don’t see how isolating the UK from the rest of Europe will help non-EU countries?

  134. Paula

    Back to the question “how would leaving the EU affect immigration”. I think there will be an exodus from the UK not only for EU nationals but for other people as well since that will be the last chance to benefit from the free movement of people (especially for non-EU people who live in the UK). Generally, everybody will try to catch the last train in or out of the UK. If the economy shrinks we all know which way the flow will go. Jobs will go with that too. One good thing though there will be plenty of places in schools, there will be plenty of properties too (price crash will diminish Britain’s wealth but who cares…). The remain campaign says that we buy fro the EU so they won’t shut us out. The same people say we’ll be able to export to the EU because our currency will be cheaper. Please enlighten me on this but if our currency is cheaper doesn’t it mean that we won’t be able to buy as much from the EU? I get the argument against the EU but I don’t see how leaving it will make things better really. Also we are the 5th economy in the world but that can change very quickly. What would we do if we see the financial sector moving to other European countries. I know for a fact that there are plans to move major operations to Europe leaves. Is that what we want. Is having more in schools worth have our youngsters working abroad one day the same way EU migrants coming to the UK today leaving there homes. We have migration because we are doing well and to solve problems with housing and education we need to invest more in them from what we are getting in tax. We have to expand the economy not shrink it and help developing countries so people are happy where they are.

  135. bob hoskins

    free movement of people is a utopian dream and should have been dealt with as such when setting up the EU. IT shOULD HAVE BEEN A GOAL RATHER THAN A FOUNDING PRINCIPLE. the need of immigrants is not in question but the calibre and skills has to be determined by us not the EU.THe FABRIC OF EUROPEAN LIFE IS CHANGED FOREVER BY THE INFLUX OF MOSLEM’S. we cannot coexist and they do not intergrate. we need to vote out and try to fix this before we all face the east 4 times a day.

    • Chris Brown

      The EU should have no future. It is not fit for purpose, and it refuses to adapt and evolve.(This would be the better path)
      Now it is necessary to start again with friendly countries cooperating, and bringing their citizens with them at the pace that the citizens are happy with, not with an agenda and pace being set by bureaucrats following their own groupthink dreams.

    • György Gajdos

      We’ll be finally able to speed up integration to a fully functional EU

    • Chris Brown

      To György Gajdos: What do you imagine a “fully functioning” EU would look like?
      Not the utopia or fantasy version… A central tyrannical bureaucracy, basically, making edicts with no necessity of consulting the people affected.
      Whose first purpose is to preserve themselves and their good life.

      Fortunately it’s not going to happen as internal tensions and stresses are set to reveal where the dream is actually a nightmare.

    • György Gajdos

      We could have created a European Army, EU external borders, various economic policies ( on energy for instance) if it wasn’t for the British “concerns”.

  136. Olivier Dutreil

    Europe can work only with string common policies which UK does not want.with brexit Europe will step forward or will die

  137. Steve

    Would leaving the EU mean no more ‘Eurovision Song Contest’ for us Brits? If so count me in – or should I say out!

  138. György Gajdos

    English people don’t see themselves as Europeans. We would have long ago created a European Army, European external borders, secret services ( to deal with terrorism) , we would have long time ago had a unified energy policy with a massive and long term renewables program had it not been for the British “concerns” (=how to undermine us from the inside) Just Google up “Cameron on a European Army”

  139. György Gajdos

    We would have long ago created a European Army, European external borders, secret services ( to deal with terrorism) , we would have long time ago had a unified energy policy with a massive and long term renewables program had it not been for the British “concerns” (=how to undermine us from the inside) Just Google up “Cameron on a European Army”

    • Chris Brown

      …the end.

      The horror, the horror.

  140. Wendy Harris

    Once again Britain must show her defiance in the face of a sprawling monster whose tentacles are slowly choking our democracy and freedom. If Brexit can cut the first tentacle then maybe others within its grip will follow.

  141. Olivier Dutreil

    I think that UK can do pretty well without EU…but EU could also do better after Brexit..but the choice niw is no Europe or a fédéral united Europe free from US and powerfull

  142. Paula

    what about all British citizens that want to be part of the EU? How can you deny us this?

    • Chris Brown

      That’s what we’re voting on.
      Remember: leaving the EU is not leaving Europe.

      And personally I think the EU is heading for break-up anyway. A united and cooperative Europe was and is a good goal. But the EU went too far too fast and in an authoritarian manner which has alienated many people in many countries.

  143. David Petty

    It would control it, this is what is needed, no ideological view, controlled is the only way!

  144. daddum

    Paula, If you want to be part of the EU, emigrate to mainland Europe.
    What the remain camp are saying is total fiction.
    I am a director of my own engineering company and also a trustee of a major UK pension scheme. The scheme advisers (fund managers and bankers), have made it clear that the impact of Brexit will be a wobble on the markets, the bigger wobble will be caused by the potential general election that may follow now. If you dont believe me take a look at This a review by one of the UK’s leading fund managers, he makes it clear that he will be making no adjustments to his portfolio as there are far greater risks to the UK than Brexit.

    There is so much the remain camp dont tell you, like the fact that the EU pension scheme is running a deficit of many millions, and this increased by 26% between 2013 and 2014 (the last year that the accounts are available) this deficit has to be funded by the member states (countries). This is a time bomb waiting to go off, with 55000 employees with 70% final salary pension scheme this is like adding around 38500 extra employees every 30 years. Everyone else on the planet has got rid of final salary schemes because they are not sustainable, but the EU keeps it’s scheme because it knows it can just keep asking it’s member states (countries) for more and more money. It is unsustainable!

    As for migration being good for us, just at what point do we decide we are full ?
    Germany has twice as much land per person as we do and france has 3 times as much per person.
    Cameron tells us that migrant workers pay in more than they take out, well lets look at that. Minimum wage= 14040 per year. They pay £608 in tax and £717 in National insurance. Total £1325, a birth costs the NHS over £1600, thats without or the health visitor and anti natle clinics. A GP visit costs £40 per 10 mins plus £10 if a prescription is written. A person on minimum wage will probably get tax credits and housing benefit as well as child benefit £1040 per year, and this in turn would give the mother a right to a UK state pension when she gets old even if she goes back to her home country. But the employer has to pay NI as well at a cost of £1325 per year for someone on minimum wage. And employers dont like doing this, but they do like access to cheap labour, so they have found a nice way around this, take the massive engineering company ABB, the employ around 150,000 people and they opened a factor in the Czech republic in 2014. They now have people from that factory working all over the UK. but they are employed by ABB Czech, not ABB UK. so they pay no taxes in the UK and pay no NI in the UK and ABB UK pays no employer NI for them. They dont ever get a NI number as they work for a foreign company who has sent them here for a while.
    This is not just an ABB thing, just type “polish agency workers” into google, you will be stunned how many companies there are who can provide you with staff.

    Before you comment about the EU, learn about it, Understand it, my experience is that people who want to stay, know very little about the EU, people who want to leave have made the effort to learn about it. How can you trust George Osborn, 25% of his companies income is from mainland Europe!.

  145. Sebastien Chopin

    Clash of civilisations… Huntington…. why isn’t this compulsory in schools around the world? We might be able to do something about it… and so why is England swimming backwards in all this? Haven’t Farage, Cameron and Boris just committed one of the greatest criminal acts against our civilisation?

  146. David Fuzzey

    We will be able to control who comes in and stop discriminating against Commonwealth Citizens.

  147. David Fuzzey

    We will be able to control who comes in and stop discriminating against Commonwealth Citizens.

    • Paula

      I don’t think is discrimination. It is just a fact that if you have the same open border policy to other countries you will have half a million coming in if not more. Europe is not a third world county as far as I am aware?! I have traveled around Eastern Europe and it is not half as poor as some Commonwealth Countries. We are now doing better than our neighbors but it hasn’t always been like that. Migration has peaked in recent years no doubt about it but still can’t compare it to Commonwealth countries. This colonial thinking is not going to take us very far!

  148. Paula

    @Daddum. Let’s assume you are right. What happens if I want to work in mainland Europe though? Also why is the pound falling against the euro? Do you want Farage as a prime minister? That guy is a lunatic full stop.. Even his smile scares me …

  149. Paula

    Also you are right I will leave the UK if Brexit happens. I can always come back but may never be able to leave ..

  150. Paula

    Also how will we do if assessed on a point based system? Higher education here is 9000/year and to increase… there is no maintenance grant anymore etc. So as uneducated bunch are we going to be able to work abroad? It is a more complex picture than painted here. I feel sorry for all people that counted on something that will no longer exist. To say there is NOTHING good about the EU is a complete hypocrisy. Good luck everyone.

  151. daddum

    Hi @Paula
    I work with Indian people, they have to pay £200 a year for a visa, thats £200 also for each family member and they have to have a guarantee of a job here before they get a visa. So if there are 3 of you then £600 a year, that is how it works in most countries.
    You should try getting into USA or Australia to work !
    It’s not a matter of having Farage as PM, it’s the point that we would have the right to choose who we have. The EU has already started the process to have a super president, this person will be above the existing 4 presidents and in effect be the King of Europa (yes they have a name for this new country as well, it;s on their web sites, and they have a flag and an national anthem) and we have no say in this at all. The pound goes up and down all the time, a weak pound boosts our sales to the USA etc. and if we do leave the Euro will drop more than the pound.
    Big businesses love the EU, it’s cheap labour. ABB are a cllasic example, they have transfered manufacturing from the UK to eastern europe, they bring in staff from eastern Europe and employ them through in the Czech Republic. So they never ever count as a UK employee, but more and more graduate engineers from the UK can’t get jobs because of this practice. For ABB it’s a win win as they base their HQ in Zurich, which is not in the EU, so they have cheap labour working in this country paying no taxes and they dont even pay any corporation tax in the UK.
    People like persimmon homes are saying remain as building houses has given their CEO a £100million pay bonus more migration means more houses.
    Where I live in South Yorkshire our Local Devlopment plan has been rejected by central goverment because we had aonly allowed for enough houses for local people over the next 10 years (1100 homes) but central government says, try again and make it 3500 the next time. They are even paying local authorities a cash bonus for every new house they allow to be built on green field (google “new homes bonus”) this is because the EU is telling us to build more houses
    check out the report at the bottom of this Europa web site

    or read this

    UK has the second highest number of None UK born people, 8.4million, germany came first with 10million, but they have twice as much space per person. Think of the EU as boat, there are some nice bits on the boat and some really crap bits. If the whole boat was nice or crap there would not be a problem. But everyone wants to live in the nice bit, so they all go to the nice end of the boat and it sinks. And that is what will happen to the UK economy if we stay, we will sink, at what point do you say we are full? The idea behind the EU is that it all evens out (a bit like the tory “trickle down” effect from the rich to the poor).But that has to mean that the rich countries become worse off to meet the poor countries somewhere in the middle.
    If you have a look at this chart from the Europa website you will see that the rich countries are suffering the most immigration.,_1_January_2015_(%C2%B9)_YB16.png

    And if the next budget is passed (it has been put on hold until after the referendum) we will be the second biggest contributor after germany, we are the 3rd at the moment after france.

    Our parliment is now reduced to passing laws on carrier bag charges and interviewing ex BHS owners, they have no control over anything now except the budget, and the EU wants that control to make the EU work.
    here is a independent video that was done for viewers in the USA to explain the EU problems over a year ago.Please watch it, the EU does not work unless we surrender everything to them.

    • Perky

      The Leave Campaign are trying to tell us we could have a strong economy and keep net migration down. They’re lying, and so are the Remain Campaign who promise the same thing. Both of them are pandering to the emotional fears of the electorate, neither of them can admit that immigration and a strong economy go hand in hand for fear of losing voters, and the general public are being somewhat naive in believing their rhetoric. Businesses will recruit whoever they need to fill their jobs, regardless of whether they come from the EU or outside it given that its far more costly for them not to fill their jobs.

      Non-EU net migration is higher than EU net migration despite them having to jump through hoops with all the visa applications and residency criteria and work permits, because businesses want them. It was a lie from Cameron to suggest that this could be dealt with through the EU, it was a lie in the Conservative manifesto that their targets could be achieved. It is cheaper for businesses to get those workers from the EU if they’re available because of common standards and the lack of red tape, but even the EU can’t provide enough workers for our strong economy which has seen unemployment drop from a peak of 8% in 2013 down to 5% in the space of 3 years, and also a rise in net migration which it is also coping with.

      A Conservative government is never going to put barriers in the form of strict immigration in place to prevent bussinesses recruiting, it is fundamentally against their neoliberalist philosophy. So if people are voting Leave ‘to take control of our borders’ and specifically to reduce immigration it ain’t gonna happen. It might eventually but only when we have very little growth, and long term that’s extremely damaging indeed. That’s like having two savings accounts that you set up for your kids at birth for when they turn 18, one has low interest and the other has high interest. After 18 years of interest compounding, which one has significantly more cash in it than the other? Better off out? I don’t think so.

    • Tris

      Yes there are problems with the EU and people are clearly passionate about this but personally I’m starting to feel pretty confident we’ll be better in than out.
      But whatever happens on thursday we’ll be in this together on friday.

  152. Paula

    @Daddum. I do understand your concerns. What is more I share them. I don’t know my son is going to afford a home ever! I also think that the idea is to meet in the middle which means rich countries will become poorer and poor countries will become richer. What is the alternative?? We’ve seen what happens when poor countries are left on their own devices. We can’t escape from it really? Can we? Read on the first world war (not that I am predicting a third one). Also the cheap pound means that we are not going to buy as much from Germany which destroys the leave campaign argument. I agree with what you are saying but just see things from a different perspective. I have spent most of my life abroad (mostly Europe) and looking at the bigger picture we are on one big boat. If a disaster strikes tomorrow we will run to our neighbors not India. It is so intuitive unite with your neighbors first and then the world. We can’t stop globalisation and multiculturism. This is an ideology that always ends in tears. If we don’t like the EU we change it we don’t destroy. Once you unleash destructive forces there is no stopping them no controlling them. If the EU falls apart where the border with France is and whether we have 180 or 80 thousand EU migrants may be the least of concerns. As to where you put the limit on population growth. You don’t it happens naturally. Otherwise you have one child policy.

    • Perky

      It’s a formality for Switzerland, they haven’t wanted to formally join for some time. If the EU are saying ‘you’re still joining’ it’s because they haven’t formally rescinded their application, to put any validity on that doesn’t make sense.

      But there’s a much bigger problem, if we were joining we’d be coming in from the outside. We’re already in, and that changes the political landscape for the EU completely. It’s often said that we could negotiate ourselves and come up with a trade deal with the EU. That is certainly true IF we weren’t in the EU to start with. If we come out and then be allowed to have a favourable deal that doesn’t respect the founding principles, that would show other countries that it’s possble to exit the EU and access the market without substantial penalty. Other countries may well follow. Those EU countries whose economic and social well being depend entirely on the success of the EU project are extremely unlikely indeed to allow a ‘third way’. Also there’ll be no political will for the EU to give us anything like favourable terms in bilateral agreements like Switzerland for the same reason.
      The likes of Germany and other EU countries will have competing self interests, deal with us on good terms which ordinarily they would want, or risk other countries unravelling the whole EU project. Their self interests of protecting that will trump, by some way, their self interests of giving us a good deal. We are unfortunately small fry when it comes to the potential of the whole EU project collapsing, to deny that the EU would not seek to prevent it is to deny the existence of self preservation.

  153. Philip Morgan

    Hi. The question of the U.K leaving the EU ought to not include questions of “immigration”. The free movement of peoples’ is integral to a world that believes in ‘equal’ distribution of wealth and opportunity. The very fact that ‘immigration’ is the main argument used to leave the EU could be a sign that the reasons to move away are not only minimal but somewhat archaic, and therefore, obsolete. Thanks.

    • Perky

      @Philip Morgan
      I agree, immigration is not an EU thing. We haven’t been able to control non-EU migrants and we have full control. It’s a strong economy that generates it, whehter we’re in the EU or not. The proper thing to do is have a sea change in investment in the social infrastructure if we are to have strong growth, and ultimately strong growth provides more income to pay for those services. We should be milking strong growth while it happens, because it may not always be like this.

    • Chris Brown

      Philip, “The free movement of peoples’ is integral to a world that believes in ‘equal’ distribution of wealth and opportunity”
      It might do, but that’s not the world we have.
      There is no right to go and live in whatever country one wishes to.
      Angelina Jolie made clear mention of this in her recent speech making the case for better treatment and support for refugees.
      Refugees have a right to have their case for asylum heard, normally in the first safe country they come to.
      Other migrants are a different matter altogether. Whether they can travel to a country and be admitted to visit, study or work.. is the business of the individual country, or group of countries if they have agreed common or reciprocal standards.

      Personally I can reach a decision to vote “leave” on other grounds without approaching the question of immigration (democratic deficit and the future intentions of the EU suffice, nicely.)
      But I have no doubt that inadequately controlled immigration, at current rates*, is having a detrimental effect in numerous regions of my country.
      (Individual examples I have seen and experienced, often enough. but I would not build a formal case from there.)

      *unprecedented rates, by most opinions, even acknowledging previous major periods of migration, especially into the USA (at the expense of native populations)

  154. Vasile

    We are from EU and we have lived in UK since 2011 (5 years). We have been working all the time and our children have been in school and now they finished school and have their degrees and they still going on to have a better future. Will the EU referendum affect us even tho we haven’t yet applied for Indefinite Live?

    • Philip Morgan

      Hi, Perky: “Those EU countries whose economic and social well being depend entirely on the success of the EU project are extremely unlikely indeed to allow a ‘third way’.”

      This is my point. Smaller countries have been in the shadows of the U.K for too long, just as the U.K has been in that of the U.S, in my opinion. Maybe these less (historically and financially prominent?) countries don’t want to let us leave because they do, on some level, need us. Burdensome financial climbs always pose obstacles to any far-reaching and all-inclusive vision for the future but does that make the vision in some way blurred or does it simply mean some adjustment. Things are not today, what they were; things are today, what they are.

      “We should be milking strong growth while it happens, because it may not always be like this.”

      So, leaving the EU would allow for a stronger social infrastructure, by the demand of new terms with the EU – that we would have left – which would strengthen the economy, thus allowing for more services rendered towards the plight of incoming immigrants?! …It won’t work out that way. I think this is crossing the borders of topic! First, there are no deals to be made once we leave, and we have nothing to fall back on. We have little self-made industry to make new deals, and we don’t thrive on small-businesses, either. We are already in the pockets of bigger countries with bigger concerns and would be leaving ourselves vulnerable to their game plans. We would then be weakening ourselves by falling even further into the Marketing ether – could that get any worse: yes. And making once again for an even greater ‘class’-system social divide. And this is why crossing borders of topic only helps to cease the crossing of any other kind – because once the U.K is outside of the EU it doesn’t haven’t to concern itself with the plight of anyone. At present, it has a shared responsibility, but outside, it can simply close in on itself. This is not healthy. We need air to breathe.


      Hi, Chris B: …”that’s not the world we have”.

      Does that make the ideal unattainable and not worth striving for?

      “There is no right to go and live in whatever country one wishes to.”

      One can but needs a pass for a certain amount of time. Again though, it would be nice to think we could, one fine day.

      “Refugees have a right…normally in the first safe country they come to.”

      Yes, but maybe those “first safe”countries are not countries that would for a long time ever be safe – what “first countries” do you mean?

      “…reciprocal standards.”

      What standards are these? This country will always have a bigger unemployment level than is statistically shown to be the case, with or without refugees, and immigrants often take jobs that those in the U.K don’t want. The standards I think you might mean, don’t count for much, if anything – not even for natives. And it would be nice if one day people could call each other by different terms other than ‘immigrant’. I prefer the term ‘person’, or ‘people’. And if one has to differentiate, then ‘displaced peoples’.

      “*unprecedented rates, by most opinions, even acknowledging previous major periods of migration, especially into the USA”

      The USA has consumed very little in the wider sense of things when compared to its vast size and infrastructure. They have done the very minimal in that respect. Seemingly.

      And what are these “future intentions” of the EU?

      As far as I can see, both immigration and staying in the EU will force the U.K to be more imaginative in finding ways to create real employment growth instead of generating a false economy and this will take help. Staying in the EU would be more likely a direction in ensuring we could pull this off.


      Hi, Vasile: good to hear. Good question. The U.K relies on people such as yourselves – initially from outside the U.K – and so surely it would be detrimental to this country’s better interests if the U.K were to damage any element that contributes towards its financial stability.


    • Nancy kelley

      Do you collect benifits? Your nhs card costs a fortune alone and the money is being drained from the system
      Housing food and nhealth card
      Why should others pay when they do not have the money?

  155. Andrew fletcher

    They say price will rise 10/20 percent on imports and will cost us if we leave. But it works both ways and we put 10/20 percent on imports if they want us to buy there produce. So it evens out. Food will go up but if it’s produced in uk y will it go up. Eu want to much money for there product then we look across the hole world to trade and buy and sell to others. The only looser from leaving is Euro. If Euro want our custom there have to be competitive with there prices. And all these high paid people how look for business and trade will have to earn there money and not have it so easy.

  156. Andrew fletcher

    How come they say everything goes up if we leave. Increase in exports by 20 percent. So we put important up by 20 percent. Evens out and we can go and deal with and other countries we want to get better trade and if it’s cheaper than Euro then we go there and Euro will have to reduce if they want our trade. To me that’s good for uk. Food goes up but if it’s made in uk y does it go up. I don’t understand that one. Again we can deal with any countries we want to get the best deal. Holidays go up and yes I can see that happening. It’s then the individual to decide ware they want to go on holiday eu or stoneware out of eu that’s cheaper. There’s plenty of really nice couriers around the World to visit. What about the effect of free movement to this country. Massive increase in immigration puts pressure on this country’s resources. We are told there is massive problems with this country and water shortage electric shortage massive congestion need of nuclear power stations to cope with it. Food shortage house shortage. This is all caused by to many people entering the country and I’m surprised environmentalist don’t complain about this effect as they argue against the power stations we need to cope with power needs.
    I’ll be ticking out on 23rd

    • Philip Morgan

      Hi, Andrew. “Massive increase in immigration puts pressure on this country’s resources. We are told there is massive problems with this country and water shortage electric shortage massive congestion need of nuclear power stations to cope with it. Food shortage house shortage.”

      – pretty sure, this is a myth.


  157. daddum

    Lets be clear about this, about 50% of migration is from the EU and 50% is from outside the EU, places like India. The EU has failed to make deals with India, Brazil, Australia etc so we are unable to set-up camp in these countries and start employing people in those countries, so we have to let them come here to work. It is the only way we have access to their skills. If we Leave the EU we can then negotiate deals with places like India and build factories there and hence the number of migrants from None EU countries would reduce as we would be allowed to build UK company offices in the countries rather than out sourcing to Indian companies or bring Indian labour here. This is just another very simple example of how the EU holds us back. You only have to pickup a few items and you will start finding thing with the CE logo on the bottom. This means that a commitee within the EU has spent many years drawing up standard and then the companies have to spend many thousands to comply. In a lot of cases the standards are lower than our British Standards. In 2012 EU regulation 1025/2012 and directive 98/34/EC forced the BSI to lower it’s standards to harmonise them with EU standards. Goodbye to the Kite Mark !
    So on my desk i have the following with CE logos
    computer hard drive
    computer motherboard
    USB chargers x 2
    USB hub x 2
    cctv camera
    mouse !
    3 pc monitors
    laser printer
    tablet pc
    tablet pc stand
    a glove puppet !
    a corgi toy tube train !
    and many more..

    but we had all this before and it was better with BSI standards. When was the last time you checked to see if what you purchased had a CE logo on it ?

    • Philip Morgan

      Hi Daddum, sounds a lot as if you are glorifying empirical ‘Great Britain’. The reasons for outsourcing is not to do with the EU, it is to do with corporate global concerns. This is more to do with a problem of the U.K in-of-itself than it is a link with the EU. If anything, the EU slams global concerns for things they need to be kept in check over; the problem you noted over CE marks, is not an issue for bigger companies and is good for customers, the problem with those, it that it also hits smalltime concerns in a big way! And that is unfair but hardly a reason to leave the EU! And if the EU standards are “lower” than BSI standards then that is a good thing because these directives go way over the top as it is.


    • Tris

      We would have to comply with the the Kitemark standards for UK manufacturers to trade into the EU so this aspect it’s not very realistic to cite this as a benefit for UK.

    • Tris

      I don’t really expect immigration to reduce much if we leave, the government is unable to limit numbers of the immigration it had control over. And we’ll need it anyhow as the older population starts to increase in proportion to the young. But I expect fewer people from the EU – I would imagine that they would find it easier to migrate within the EU rather than go through the palaver of immigration for a temporary work visa.
      But whatever happens on Thursday we’ll be in this together on Friday.

  158. Nick

    Immigration is a central point to the debate as is the economic impact of a Brexit vote. In many ways it is impossible to decouple their inter-dependance. There is obviously a lot of speculation on both issues. The Brexit argument on the immigration front seems to balance on;

    1. We take control of our own borders, and if we believe that, then free movement of EU citizens to the UK will be stopped. The counter argument is that we will be bound into a free workforce movement agreement if we want to continue to trade tarrif – free with the EU – The Norway model. The debate as to whether trade tarrifs will be imposed is also a key one. We import more from the EU than we export so maybe have less to lose? But we can’t ignore the importance of the EU overall to our trade. Similarly, there is a view that the UK won’t get trade agreements without free movement of labour, because other member states [outside Germany and France] will block ‘special treatment for the UK’.
    2. We will be able to better control immigration from ouside the EU because we will be able to write our own Human Rights Act, decoupling ourselves from our current obligations to adhere to the European Court of Human Rights which can overturn our decisions to refuse entry. Just how many of these cases are there? Here we have to have confidence that the UK Government will actually do something. To believe this leads me to assume a new leadership will be in place to make it happen. Who do we think will be that new leader?
    3. The threat of muslim non-integration into UK society is probably the most emotive one – much more than the debate on Eastern Europeans. The small minority of radical muslims is the real threat. The debate on Turkey [estimated 97.8% muslims] is another factor, as is our belief as to whether or not Turkey will enter the EU. The muslim argument is the one that probably causes the most concern amongst many British people. There is speculation that UK politics is capable of being dominated in the future by a growth in muslims with various degrees of negative impact. The Brexit argument says this could accelerate if we don’t don’t leave, because the non EU traffic coming through the EU and claiming asylum, will end up in the UK. Add the impact of Turkey joining and our UK muslim population could increase dramatically.

    I have simplified my points and haven’t touched on the full spectrum of economic factors under debate. One of my personal challenges is that I have yet to hear convincing answers from politicians which tell us what they will actually do on immigration. On the economy, I tend to feel an exit will be short term negative which we’ll get over in 3-5 years. On immigration the long term impacts on our UK society will be more fundamental. I am still seeking more answers and data to help me decide which way to vote.

  159. Philip Morgan

    Hi, Nick, you summarised at the end, with: “I have simplified my points and haven’t touched on the full spectrum of economic factors under debate. One of my personal challenges is that I have yet to hear convincing answers from politicians which tell us what they will actually do on immigration. ”

    Considering that a significant percentage of immigrants who went to Germany have converted from their own religion to another – this has happened in Calais and no doubt other places too – almost explicitly demonstrates that it is Sharia Law and regional customs in the Middle East, which ensures the suppression of free thought, and why things seem to stay in medieval discord in those parts of the world.


  160. eusebio manuel vestias pecurto vestias

    I hope that Britain will continue as a member of the European family

  161. daddum

    At the end of the day the referendum is about whether you support current government policy or not.
    The EU gives access to cheap labour
    if you are happy with that then vote to remain. But bear in mind that in 30-40 years time all of these people will need looking after and will be pensioners in the UK. So do we then have even more migrants to look after them?

    Having spent the weekend at the Hilton in London I was stunned to see 100% of the guest at breakfast were White English, and 100% of the staff were none UK a mixture of eastern european and african. And i suddenly felt like I was in south africa. Is this what we want? and economy based on consuming and access to cheap labour. It is unsustainable and in 30-40 years time it will all collapse. It will only work if we all share the risk and are all in the Euro and give up control of our countries fiscal (money) polices. The IMF said on the 16th of June

    The euro area is at a critical juncture…. the euro area increasingly vulnerable to a number of risks at a time when there is little policy space… growth and strengthening the union requires a more balanced policy mix combining structural reforms, fiscal support from centralized initiatives… Member states must abide by the rules to make the monetary union function, but at the same time, more centralized demand support and risk sharing are needed to make membership more attractive.

  162. daddum

    Even Germany agrees with us !! from the BBC web site 5 mins ago

    German industry has said it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.

    Markus Kerber, the head of the influential BDI which represents German industry, says his organisation would make the case against such measures.

    He told World Business Report on the BBC World Service:

    Imposing trade barriers, imposing protectionist measures between our two countries – or between the two political centres, the European Union on the one hand and the UK on the other – would be a very, very foolish thing in the 21st century.”

    • Perky

      @Daddum Of course he’s going to say that, but he’s not thinking of the wider picture which is what happens to the EU if it starts to fall to pieces. Their exports to us are only a small proportion of their exports to the rest of the EU. There are two competing self interests, dealing with us and protecting the EU project the latter of which is going to take priority because we’re small fry compared to that.

  163. Becky Barnett

    Bollywood hit the nail in the head!!!

  164. Ivan Burrows


    We will be able to welcome people from around the world with the skills we need, not just Euro refugees driving down living standards & Schengen migrants sponging of the State…

    Vote Leave.

  165. Lolcat123

    I think that it would benefit the UK to stay in the EU. So help me in voting stay The trading is the only reason I could think of that benefits leaving.

    Vote stay.

  166. Ignacio C. Furfaro

    If they want absolute OUT they can do whatever they want. If they want access to the single market (which they are saying they want) well, that means free movement of people…oh wait, hadn’t Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson told you that?

  167. Tris

    I’m off to vote. Might see some of you down there! We’re in this together.

  168. Brain Batt

    Stupid question, in light of all the talk on EU immigration, what of Non-EU immigration, obviously this is speculative, but this isn’t (at this time) changing, right? I have a fiancee in the USA will this make things harder for us?

  169. Nancy kelley

    Wow this is great… Britain get powerful on your own and do not go broke over the economical migrants flooding in to use your system
    Let them go to Saudi or Dubai why Britain only to use your beautiful country and destroy it … And we do not want them in the us either , Ireland should also keep them out

  170. karolina

    Im working here 5 years,pay everything,im coming from another country EU,what i need doing now?


    my late father would turn in his grave if he knew what was happening to our beloved England today many years ago mr enoch powell said let one non Englishperson in and you will open the floodgates and wont be able to close them oh I right he was they have made our country a laughing stock of the world

  172. Adam Marshall

    It will take time but now the “Great” can be put back into Britain
    and we can rebuild everything that our forefathers faught to achieve.
    A very proud day for the british.

  173. Geoff

    @ Karoline – I believe you will retain the right to stay as you are already here. Nothing will happen immediately….

    Regarding migration – I think the main issue is that leaving the EU will exclude the many hardworking Europeans that have come here to work and contribute to our economy and society. But we will under humanitarian grounds still accept the many refugees and asylum seekers that come from other non European countries, whom we are obliged to support, house & look after at great expense.
    Also if they are passing through Europe I don’t see any reason for the French or other countries bordering the English channel to stop them continuing their journey to the UK. If I were the French, I would allow all those in camps at Calais, onto the first boat to the UK. Who knows what co-operation we will get once we’re outside of the EU. It becomes our problem not an EU problem.

    • karolina

      Thank you for reply to me Geoff. I hope everything will be fine.I love UK,i like people english people so i very want be here.Anyway need hope.

  174. Geoff

    This could be the beginning of the end of Great Britain & the Union that is the United Kingdom. It is only England & Wales that voted to leave the EU. Scotland are now looking again for their Independence Day.. They feel as remote from the Parliament in London as we do the one in Brussels. I’m sure the campaign for them to remain was also along the lines of stronger together…

    • stephen hamilton davis

      I already have one waiting!!!! Why can’t we just reply?

    • stephen hamilton davis

      You must be joking!
      What a disaster

  175. stephen hamilton davis

    Unfortunatly the majority of people who voted today are british people who are not working ! and if we didn’t have the ” IMIGRANTS as you call them ! Britian as you like to think of it! would not exist anyway!! we coulld not exist without the workers from other countries, because we , as a country are too well off , and the system allows people who have a right to vote , to sit on there arses and claim benefit and then complain that people are coming over and taking their jobs, which they can’t be arsed to do in the first place!!!!! Britain would be f___ked without the people from other countries who will actually do the work. No wonder as a country we are in a mess! It is so easy to abuse the system. I’ve never taken a penny from the system ! but so many people can see the loopholes

    • stephen hamilton davis

      The debate is something we should all be involved in!
      But it doesn’t seem to happen

  176. lynnwelsh

    dont know if this is a disaster

  177. Camilla

    Immigrants takes your jobs ? Who stops you have it job ? Why migrant can find job and pay tax . And you can’t ? Answer is very simple , coz your lazy to do work . None of you will go to clean toilets or packing food in freezing cold fabric . None of you go to hotels clean dirty rooms after party’s with condoms and coccoin. You not even want to finish schools in most cases . Coz you get a pregnats at age 12 and by age 18 all ready having 3 kids all from different guys . You have benefits , council house ? From who’s money all this get payed ? From yours ? Nobody over takes anyone’s jobs the hour rates are same in this country as for migrant as for Brits . The only problem is you are lazy and do not want work . Better have benefits have laga every day and smoke a rollers . And courts all migrants . People who comes here 90% working people doing all kind jobs from low payed to top jobs . Pay taxes spend them money by supporting local shops , spa , restaurants , and ect . Ask to any big business holder in uk , who’s better hardest and more distepline worker ? Migrant or Brits , I guess you well know answer . It’s easy to blmame all Pokish Latvians Lethuanis . Okay the statistic about migration is almost same from Europe and Pakistan India and ect . SAME !!!!! Okay let’s we live and in our place comes Asians . With 10 children’s and 20 cousins . All need home money benefits . You needed to make a priority for all migrants nobody will have a rights to acces any benefits or housing before they work in uk minimum 3 years pay tax and ect . Believe me so much easy it can be so many Romanians won’t come with 10 kids and ask for free house and money . It’s your fault to being given on left and right all this to people who not deserve it . If only you make this system regarding migrants . And people who work hard pay tax leave in uk , after 3-5 years only then can be able to pretend on social help .

    • Clare

      Camila. The British people do not have such a problem with people coming over here to work. We have a problem with people claiming benefits, accessing our healthcare and overfilling our schools and then having to have teachers speak in your language!!
      It should not be a rule after three years that you can access our benefits and health care, it should be a permanent rule. You and your predecessors have not paid enough money into this country to entitle you to a benefits system, free schooling and healthcare.
      You are tainting all British people as being lazy, getting pregnant and taking drugs, very judgemental. which is exactly what you’re fighting against for the people of your country.
      The majority of British people who work hard and do scrub toilets and do care work as a means to pay their bills and I find you very insulting. You hate Britain so much, why are you here?
      Along with immigration brings different cultures. it is not a culture of British people to carry knives as it is some Eastern Europeans. We should have the right to accept who we want in our country and that does not include violent criminals

    • Adrian

      @clara: careful there your racism is showing.
      In what eastern european societies “they carry knives” as a custom?

      Did you watch too much samurai movies, luv?

  178. Perky

    @stephen hamilton davis I’m on your side, but the claim that ‘the majority of people who voted today are british people who are not working’ doesn’t really stack up as we have 5% unemployment, some way off the ‘majority’ figure of 16.8million ;-)

  179. Paula

    @ Perky from ONS
    * There were 8.92 million people aged from 16 to 64 who were economically inactive (not working and not seeking or available to work), 9,000 fewer than for the 3 months to January 2016 and 124,000 fewer than for a year earlier.
    * There were 8.50 million people working part-time, 157,000 more than for a year earlier.
    * and then pensioners …

  180. Paula

    I just want to say that this is a sad day for humanity. There are so many evidence of stupidity and xenophobia that our children will one day look at with dismay. I don’t know how I will explain why day the reasons we turned against our neighbors. I will have to talk about the NHS, the fictitious 350 mln a week that we will get back, about the EU workers stealing jobs (when the unemployment is only 5%) and they will be looking at me saying “Was it worth it?”. What should I say if the EU collapses, if Russia or ISIS turns this to their advantage. What should I do if we are dragged into a civil war? Should I say we simply didn’t know what we were doing? I hope this works (but my guts say it won’t). Good luck everyone and if doesn’t work I hope the next generations forgive us.

  181. Perky

    Sorry, I thought the post was referencing people who were unemployed and by inference claiming benefits. My mistake.

  182. punit

    I have a honest question –
    What happens to someone who is British Citizen but has settled aboard post retirement investing a lot in lets say their new home somewhere in EU country? After UK exits from EU do they have to just bundle up their lives and move back to UK?

  183. daddum

    Lots of people live in other countries, my god daughters have been living and working in Russia !!
    you may have to apply for a visa, or you could apply in advance for citizenship. The bigger question would be arrangements around health care costs re-charges. But at the end of the day, most countries are happy to have people living in their country if they are bring more than they are taking out. e.g. you spend your money there.

  184. anna

    I am a doctor from Australia, an orthopedic surgeon.

    I am treated as a criminal at EU airports, because of the color of my passport. I am grilled to make sure that I have no intention of working in the UK or EU. I was even once arrested accused of overstaying an EU visa !)

  185. Clare

    Can anyone please explain to me:
    If Britain becomes part of the single market will it allow people fro EU countries to access our benefits system?
    I do not have an issue with people coming over here to work, I have an issue with them claiming from a benefits system. If we go to another country and take a job we do not expect their government to top up our wages or help with housing benefit. I believe that free movement is a good thing but not to have access benefits or national health system.

    Also regarding Scotland wanting a referendum to separate themselves from England I believe this would be a good thing.
    Why can we not have a referendum to get rid of Scotland? No more free prescriptions and free university fees for them!!
    I am very proud to be English and not British and whatever the outcome, I know England will survive it as a country.

  186. Perky

    Well Cameron has been talking about wanting access to the single market, and the EU are saying we can’t ‘cherry pick’. By that they mean of course we would have to have free movement of people. I can just imagine the negotiating conversation:

    Us: “We’d like access to the single market and have restriction on free movement”
    EU: “Sorry, free movement is non-negotiable”
    Us: “OK then, nevermind. We’re a neo-liberalist government and there’s no way we’d ever put restrictions on our businesses recruiting anyway”.

    So all those who thought we’d get ‘control of our borders’ and introduce some kind of Antipodean points system have been well and truly had. Ironically we may well see net migration fall, but that won’t be because of immigration control, that will be due to having very few new jobs created because of the recession.

  187. Clare

    As per my previous post, I understand the single market would allow free movement. I do not have a problem with that. I want to know if it would give the right to our benefits, schools and national health system.

    • Perky

      Sorry, that wasn’t a response to your post, it was a separate post. I’ve always believed net migration was a function of how well the economy is doing and therefore is very hard to control, and that the best way to take the pressure off local communities is to invest in their services and housing. I was, and still am, pro-Remain. My post was really a dig at how the Leave politicians have hoodwinked the electorate with false promises and fed off their fears by proposing things that were simply impossible to achieve. But to answer your question, I don’t know what wriggle room the government might have and how much is bound up in the ‘four freedoms’, certainly so far it’s been difficult while inside the EU, but how this works in the EEA but outside the EU is unclear to me.

  188. daddum

    how well we do now is going to depend on who we have negotiating for us.
    just remember that we buy 290billion GBP worth of goods from the EU
    they buy 220billion GBP from us.
    If we end up with no trade deal then we fall back to World Trade Organisation Rules as the EU is a member of the WTO and has to follow the rules.
    Basically WTO means an average of 5.3% tarrif that they would charge us to send good to them
    however it works both ways and we charge 5.3% on the goods they send to us.
    as they sell us 70billion more than we sell them, it means that we get 3.71billion more than they do. this can be used as a tax credit for inports and exports to make our exports more applealing and control the price of imports such as food.
    and remember that we can always use some of the 11billion a year that we will be saving to subsidise imports. You would never want to subsidies everything as there will be certain good like Steel that you would not want to offer the importer a rebate on. basically we have control over our VAT when we leave and we can alter that to make any tarrifs costs neutral. At the end of the day if the EU dont want us to have full access to the single market (like that they have just given to canada!) then we can make life very difficult for them because unlike EU countries we will have control of things like our VAT levels etc.

  189. Perky

    Making exports and imports more expensive will mean we sell less and buy less, the pricing point is very important to maximize revenue. Our exports that are competing in the market will be at more of a disadvantage compared to other EU countries. If what you’re saying was true, both could simply put up their prices, and both would be better off. Tariffs are a way to protect domestic markets, the WTO levels are set for a hypothetical average country with an average mix of industries and are a fallback baseline, it is never optimum for any one country doing deals with another unless both are exactly the same type of country as the WTO’s hypothetical one. The Canada model is also not really a good one for the UK for many reasons, this gives more details:

  190. Clare

    Who the hell does Angela Merkel think she is?
    The Germans themselves want a referendum to leave the EU, it is her fault that England have left, with her insistance on an open door policy. All countries are sick of the EU, I work with Polish people and they said the moment their country joined the EU there was no work and that’s why they had to come to England. We fought two world wars to stop Germany dictating to us and then went in joined the EU and allowed them to do it anyway.

  191. kevin

    Well assuming we have left (sometime in the future) the point surely is whatever deal ,whatever terms we agree with the EU they will be with the agreement of our elected politicians. And if we don’t like the terms they have agreed we can sack them and elect someone more to our liking .

    And surely that’s the whole point , immigration was never an issue beyond numbers which we can now control , if we want to .

    • Perky

      @Kevin: Businesses will recruit who they need regardless of the number of points we set since we can’t control how many people out there still meet that criteria, and they will be recruited because it’s far more expensive for businesses not to do so. Governments aren’t going to be willing to stop businesses recruiting anyway as that would harm the economy, so having control like this is really just tokenism, it’s like buying an expensive membership to a gym and then never, ever using it.

  192. daddum

    @Perky: The way the points system works is simple. you have to prove that you have advertised the job in the UK first and that there is nobody suitable.
    the Uk currently has a labour shortage because of Crossrail (10000 jobs) HS2 (up to 25000 jobs) GWEP, and then crossrail 2 is being talked about, but when these jobs are done in 5 -10 years time there will be a massive amount of unemployed people. If you bring them in on Visa’s then you just make the visa last as long as the project and when they have finished working they can go home, or get a job here if there are any.
    The EU will never succeed without full integration something the EU denies but even Obama admitted this was the end game when he said “The best way to think about this is, a pause button has been pressed on the project of full European integration … “

  193. kevin

    Having control is not ‘tokenism’ its having control . Of course business will recruit whoever they need ,that’s the point .Business get their workers and we don’t have economic migrants arriving here without jobs .
    We will have to see what terms and conditions the UK government and the EU come up with but complete free movement of people must be replaced with visa access for workers .

  194. Perky

    @Kevin: But unemployment is at a record low of 5%. This figure also contains the chronically unemployed or unemployable, and those who don’t want to move to different areas to get jobs that fit their skillset. The unemployment figure suggests even if they do come here with no job offer that they get a job anyway, otherwise unemployment would go up. So what’s the problem?

  195. kevin

    Of course the economic migrant finds work perky or they wouldn’t come here . In doing so though with the oversubscription of labour wages are compressed for those already here native and immigrant alike .
    We end up with a low wage economy where the minimum wage becomes the only wage in many industries .
    I would also doubt the figure of 5 % as this includes part time , those on zero hours contracts and those like myself who are self employed who spend periods of time not working .
    Business of course love low wages ,they see their employees subsidised by the taxpayer while their shareholders are laughing all the way to the bank . Some of course say they can not survive without migrant labour ,what they really mean is they have a failing business model that cant pay decent wages.

    As corporate profits have risen wages have fallen in real terms ,while the salaries between those at the top and those at bottom are an ever increasing divide . Mass immigrations of cheap labour only fuel this and is the economic model that needs ever growing expansion .

    Apprenticeships are a thing of the past as companies recruit (from the EU) rather than train our own people . Where are our we going to be in years to come with a dumbed down unskilled and low paid workforce ? I’ll tell you where , Eastern Europe , Ive been there ,its not a pretty sight .
    Meanwhile back on the housing estate we are faced with housing shortages ,local schools where we cant get our children into , doctors surgeries where we will have to wait 3 weeks for an appointment . Overcrowded infrastructure and social discord due to overpopulation
    That’s the problem ,not that Marko or Helga can get a job in costa coffee.

    • Paula

      Kevin, I like the way you are pinpointing the problems. However, I must disagree with the solution and the source of the problems. You are right companies like cheap labour but:
      1) the same companies pay tax that go back into the country to subsidise the low earners
      2) this a problem of globalization (and not the merely the EU)
      3) limiting labour (through immigration laws) can make companies move hence less tax into the treasury. You may say this doesn’t happen in the US but they are in a completely different geo-political environment and their economy differs greatly from ours in the way it operates.
      4) government is in power to change laws to make work conditions better (they are the ones that came up with zero-hour contracts not the EU).
      5) an EU reform is required that will limit immigration for in- and out-of-work benefits (that was in progress before the referendum and I personally hope other member states will introduce it in order to stop the fallout of the EU)
      6) Housing shortage is due to oversea investors. Whenever they talk about supply and demand they never define the demand side! The growing Asian markets and the fact that Chinese can not export more than 40 000$/year from China. That’s the reason In 2013, three-quarters of US investment immigration visas were issued to Chinese nationals. That is also why the “buy to leave” is gaining momentum in the UK, especially London. Yet again the only institution that can put the breaks on it is the government. Instead they are milking the stamp duty money source to subsidise the failing UK economy.
      7) Eastern Europe is a different story all together. To sum it up, we had the common wealth, they were part of the Soviet union. That puts them in a disadvantaged position and it is hard to draw any comparison between the Eastern bloc and the UK.
      8) The government is in power to boost apprenticeship schemes. The same way it can lower tuition fees and reintroduce maintenance grants.

      Instead of addressing the numerous issues you rightly pointed out the government is concerned with maintaining our nuclear power. I know this is a whole different issue all together but it just shows where the priorities lie at the moment. Leaving the EU will not address the seissues, Kevin. I am afraid Brexit will be an excuse for scrapping the NHS and social housing, lowering corporate tax, changing labour laws e.g. 50 hour/week for the same pay etc. While they do that rich people will get richer, poor people will get poorer, EU nationals will go home (willingly or unwillingly) and non-EU nationals will replace them. Tell me if you think I am wrong. I so much hope I am!

  196. Mike anderson

    MY problem is having to earn a certain amount to get my fiance here who i went out and got engaged to in front of her famiy in south east asia,i can look after her no bother as i dont drink or smoke, earning 15,500 per year, theresa may wants to put it up to 24,000 who gets paid that with no good is ridiculous.

    • kevin

      That’s bad news and really is discrimination against low earners .The thing is outside the EU and with the expected reduction in numbers from Europe rules may be relaxed for people from other parts of the world , especially those with good reason to migrate .
      The £20K earnings rule was really put in to stop economic migrants bringing their wives over to join them on the benefits gravy train not UK citizens who have foreign spouses (or intended) Good luck .

  197. Paula

    I just want to say that the Brexit hasn’t started yet and see nothing positive about it. Low paid work and migrant workers will be the least of our worries over the months to come! People seem to think that when money is wiped out from world markets they miraculously reappear and that falling pound has no impact because of boosting our “export” (although we buy raw materials from abroad but who cares). The schools are going to be packed even more when public spending gets cut. NHS is going to be private in the near future no doubt about it and the high salaries for low paid jobs just a dream! We want to go “global” and compete with the US and China well have a closer look… It is not going to be a social democracy… Now Brexit will be an excuse to slash public spending and make you work more for less in the hope that in the future we will be ” Global and rich”. Some people will win from the referendum but not “the ordinary” people but people with real global capitalist vision who would have made money in or out!!! And yes the EU will probably disintegrate after the UK’s vote to leave but how is that going to help us really? We are in for the next two years not to mention that we do export to the EU…so really do we benefit from a failed EU project. And the refugees will they disappear, vanish after we leave? Are we somewhat responsible for the problems in the Middle East or “oops it wasn’t me”. Do you think the future lies in competing which country is going to build the best wall?. Well surprise surprise we can leave the EU but not Europe or planet Earth! Times are difficult in or out of the EU!

  198. Dave

    As an ex-pat living in the EU (Germany), the reports we are receiving are those that the UK will be made an example of by the EU itself, so to scare other countries from doing the same. If this happens and all talks fail, and the worse case scenario evolves, i.e. no movement within the EU. It will basically mean I am from that day an illegal immigrant. So I will expecting the UK to pay for me (and the other 2 million ex-pats in europe) for us to move back to the UK. If this does not happen me and others will be sueing the UK for failing to protect our human rights…

  199. kevin

    Dave you can not be an illegal immigrant in a country you have entered legally . There will be no repatriation of peoples across Europe .

    The Germans especially have a history of repatriating people , they don’t want to go down that road , the Spanish could not afford to loose the grey pound and the French ,well they are French , trust me ,its not going to happen

  200. Paula

    Hi Kevin. You can become illegal immigrant. Let’s take for example Chinese students who became illegal when Theresa May changed the visa laws a few years back. Politicians can do very nasty things and there will be no referendum about their decisions so we will have to suck it up.

  201. kevin

    Paula , Chinese students have not entered the country as permanent residents as they are not in the EU . The change in Visa laws for them just made sure they left after completing their studies . I don’t see the problem with that .
    I do however accept that politicians can do nasty things but we don’t have to ‘suck it up’ .We can in the UK unlike those of the EU sack them at the next election which will happen if they go down the repatriation route
    Trust me ,its not going to happen .

  202. Positive adult

    Pretty much the same regulations for non Australian Or American Nationals in those country’s then. It was great you received health care whilst here.
    America offers no free healthcare. Non Americans citizens Cannot work ! It would be more appropriate if a young BRITISH national person received part time wage to play flute to refugee children, rather than a ‘tourist’. No?
    6 years between aged 19 -25 is a tiny part of adult life. It’s great to experience different countries and cultures at this age. Save your £s between now and April, get positive and be “awesome ” get out there and adventure . Way too young to be moaning about not staying in one country on your life ‘adventure’. See it as a positive, a blessing being pushed can turn out well. UK cannot be a nanny state for enture world . Hence LEAVE RESULT Referendum . A young child of working family origin from a deprived area in UK, can better benefit from that part time soft entrance to work market than adult non UK national . You can take your talents and benefit refugee children and children from very deprived areas in USA. More appropriate. No?

  203. Paula

    @Positive Adult. I am not trying to be offensive but despite reading your post numerous times I can’t understand most if it. The visa regulations are not just for people in that age bracket (19 to 25). They can easily apply to a family in their 30s! Although it is a tiny bit of your life (and we have no idea whether that’s true) you wouldn’t have wasted it in the UK if you knew you were going to be thrown out. It is all about applying laws retrospectively. I understand your frustration but we shouldn’t invite people and then throw them out. Not to mention that higher education in the UK is anything but free for oversee students so policies like that are aimed at luring people and then sending them home. I find it disgusting to be honest! Also how is this young person going to burden your NHS that much? Yes, there is no free healthcare in the US but it won’t be long that will be the case here and I have no doubts about it! I have done a lot of research in that area and I give NHS 2 years tops then it will all go private!

  204. Positive adult

    Which part is hard to understand? No offence intended. Since June 24th I am not frustrated thank you .

    I guarantee you BHS will not be privatised in two years.
    I have reason to know not.
    Relax, best to not let one’s angst become all consuming.

    The 6 years being a tiny bit of ones life, referred to the young musician featured in the article in your link. Not my life as you questioned .

  205. Paula

    You don’t know how long she will live do you? Anyway I wouldn’t want 6 years of my life wasted regardless of age. Also it is not just about “time” it is about family and relationships too. What if you get pregnant for instance and your fiance can’t sponsor your visa? I can come up with thousand scenarios…

    As to the NHS, I don’t think it will happen overnight, it will be a gradual transition where you will have to pay for certain services or wait for months. Eventually they will scrap these service… I hope I am wrong. Time will show

  206. Positive adult

    Point is :- to behave like an adult . Do not rely on previous UK nanny state to care of ones mistakes e g unplanned pregnancies when on a temporary visa.
    (Same as USA and Australia )
    Unplanned pregnancies and marriages do not make an iota of difference to American Immigration visa applications .

    The previous frustration of UK Nationals was with their beloved country filling up with non UK Nationals, with such a sense of entitlement from
    GB and its taxpayers.

    To add insult to injury flooding blogs and letters to editor pages complaining that this tiny island and its inhabitants, just cannot tailor its laws to suit them .
    I thought the whole idea was indeed to swap eu unskilled with non eu skilled WORKERS, retaining a suitable amount of unskilled to fill existing positions. based on AUSTRALIAN Style points system, which works for them .

    Sometimes, one has to bite the bullet, put action into words, MOVE ON.

  207. Paula

    OK, I hope the UK performs well in the future. Any change in circumstances though and we will be the ones “flooding blogs and letters to editor pages complaining”. Arrogance is never a good thing, it leads to wars and it ends in humiliation.

  208. Positve Adult

    Move on …the majority has spoken, Be positive , stop talking the country down, ….yawn

  209. Positive Adult

    How about posting positive suggestions, looking for the upside; of which there are, as there are many happy people now, in the UK after June 23rd.
    Remoaners – MOVE ON or away .

  210. Paula

    Ok Positive adult I will probably move away. If things get better I will come back if not I will watch from outside. At the end of the day Leave wasn’t my choice so I don’t feel responsible for it. Also people are happy they go rid of something not because they got something better…. if leave campaigners had lost they would have been equally bitter. This vote has big implications so it is perfectly normal for people to be upset and not wanting to move on (since as you rightly said that means changing home, leaving family etc.). I am soooooooo sad that is why I feel the need to write, to express my utter disappointment and try to understand why people voted the way they did. It is not about being negative it is about understanding the reasons behind this decision.

  211. Positive Adult

    Yes but “right” won out.

    At this point all the corny sayings come into play , if you view it as sinking , “rats leaving the sinking ship” flogging a dead horse” . Your angst and negativity seems to be all consuming.
    Time for you to “leave” move on, go for a holiday to France Syria or Turkey.
    Talk to people there, spread that inspiring optimism, you may change your mind set, you are drowning kiddo. Signing off (to go be positive )

  212. Positve Adult

    OK here’s the reason why the majority voted to leave: to get out of the EU, to be English/British not European.
    “Sovereignty ”
    Leave voters were not misled, they are absolutely insulted by Remoaners idiotically repeating that to themselves like a mantra. Many intellectuals were “Leave” they are too polite to verbalise this insult .

    As I said in my first post, it was a lazer like focus.
    The three major issues were IMMIGRATION IMMIGRATION IMMIGRATION.
    I hope this has helped you understand .

    Go away from UK find your truth.
    I heard an older gentleman reply to a Remoaner, who is like you, raking negativity; say ” now we will go down the drain”

    The older gentleman said “at least it is now our drain to go down”

    I support his absolute right to feel that way.
    Please stop raking through the dregs looking for dirt, sift the sand look for diamonds.
    (Yes I am always this positive.)
    If Remain had won I would be the same , acceptance of the majority decision, make the best of it .

    (British tradition)


  213. Paula

    Thank you Positive I will make the best of it! I am not a rat quite the opposite… I love helping people and my life is dedicated to making this world a better place but you are right the world is big … and full of opportunities so I can always come back if Britain / England needs me but for it will be better off is I leave so as you said Goodbye and farewell

  214. Paula

    something happened to that last sentence there but you get the point.


  215. Positive Adult

    England needs stayers not quitters, help people here then, prove your words. If you are the helper you say you are.

    Waiting to see if ” things” get better eg suit your tailor made world.
    News: it won’t be better where you are going, lacking flexibility doesn’t make a good world traveller.
    So love Helping people here, who are in need here, make their world a better place , otherwise it’s all empty words.

    Prove to yourself. You can become a happy person right here right now.
    Brexit did not change the basics, help the people that you want to make Britain their homes.
    Drop us a line from Calais.
    Hope you have a different perspective from this. I would love to read some new posts from other people now. This is well and truly flogged.

    • Paula

      It has the UKIP stamp on so I am not reading it sorry.

    • kevin

      Well I forced myself to read your Guardian links , know your enemy and all that

  216. Clare

    If this county fails, which I very much doubt it will, it will be the fault of all the negative people like the ones on here and some of the negative politicians. You can talk up failure and a recession with your scare mongering. Lets be positive about our beautiful strong country that we are now going to be back in control of. I am very excited about it. I guarantee if the vote had gone the other way there would not have been all this discussion, the exiters would have accepted gracefully and carried on supporting our county in Europe, not winging on and on and on……… Just accept we are leaving and support England and our future.

  217. Kamal

    I think that uk should leave Eu and all illegal people in uk gave them the right to stay and work in uk that will be really good and it will be effect to uk economy as well thanks

    • Anthony

      Why should illegals be given the right to stay and work here? UK citizens don’t like them don’t want them and don’t need them…..

  218. Mikike

    I spend a lot of time in europe and already on three separate occasions I’ve been told to go back to Britain because I don’t belong in europe because I’m English and in Luxembourg I was threatened by hungarians because I’m British

  219. katherine coutts

    Britain needs ID cards, our lack of ID cards is the reason why immigrants queue to get in to Benefit Britain, most other EU Countries do have ID cards.

  220. shan

    The brexit will matter. in fact system and fighting terrorists can actually help with th Intel that the EU has

  221. Li Minugh

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  222. Onur

    I am an atheist from Turkey. I have no idea about who is going to read this but, talking about history, genes,migrants.. U look like greece before economic collapse.they were always talking about how their genes and ancestors changed the world, won the wars, created democracy. Guys the problem is here ; world is changing and getting hot. İgnorance getting higher rates.I am happy to say that Islam is a tumor in the brain, like all other religions.. ignorance always will win in muslim countries because of islam’s philosophy itself makes mad and sinister people as leaders. This shoulndt make u a bad, racist person unless some radical believer trying to tell islam, because their thing is this.but as an atheist İf i feel racism in Europe how can i feel good ? U should against ignorance not genes. And how can u get benefit from it? U just shouldt allow dark islamic believers tell u religion is good.. They will be like puppies at first and later, their philosophy creates monsters believe me i know. I dont understand why i see religious migrants in some europen countries ? I think untill now u didnt know the danger right. Now u have the idea! The problem is i cant write,tell this kind of things in my country, i just have freedome here, dont let religions take ur freedom right from ur hands with both racism and islams philosophy with ignorance. sorry for grammer.

  223. Anthony

    There’s too much immigration into the United Kingdom : entry should be based on job skills / a persons character / criminal records and convictions / a persons previous drug / sexual / assault / murder etc offences, whether a person can support themselves financially or not, whether they are members of terrorist organisations or not, if a person has a job to come to or not, and other necessary checks balances etc that SHOULD be checked against, and if you have FALSE or NO documentation, that should be grounds, as it is in Australia / N.Z. / Canada and the USA, for immediate refusal and turnaround onto a plane back to that persons homeland of origin same day. It is NOT racist to vet check pick and choose who comes into YOUR country it’s good commonsense.

  224. daddum

    part of the problem is that when they come here we go to such lengths to accommodate them that they fail to integrate. My local cinema is now showing films for refugees once a month in their own language. They need to become part of our society not be allowed to form a another society within our society. The other things that always strikes me about migrants is that they come here for a better place to live, but they need to learn to build a better place in there own country. the countries in europe fought for their democracy and freedom. we did not all run to america.

  225. cony

    could not have put it into better words from Anthony 21st April 2017 reply

  226. cony

    England never gets on with anybody and where ever possible wilfully tries to divide a nation against its self were it has lost power, eg. Palestine India,Ireland,Ceylon, Hong Kong, .Falklands Gibraltar. “Loyal but lousy” the People are loyal but what governs them is sheer rotten and greed and all the nations that produce armaments
    and the people who provide the money to loan them. Not a lot we can do

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